KurtAngle2 wrote:
They literally killed every non-codex marines with the last news update

Shows your reading comprehension ability. Doctrines are a part of Angels of Death, and all marines get that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

It's only gross until you realize how much a Centurion costs.

I'm sorry, could you remind me their costs in this book again? I don't remember it from when I first saw it, despite only being a few days in the *future* from now...

We haven't seen points costs. Cents are likely to be high, but we simply don't know yet (unless there's been a release/reveal I've missed).

And if you're applying the rules changes to the current book, you're in "just making up rules" territory.

So Stalker Bolters are now scary. With the Devastator Doctrine they're now AP-3 D2. Pretty much Primaris killers.

 Apple Peel wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
They literally killed every non-codex marines with the last news update

Shows your reading comprehension ability. Doctrines are a part of Angels of Death, and all marines get that.

And then in the very next paragraph they state that Doctrines are for Codex adherent chapters. That's a pretty strong implication that non C:SM Astartes aint getting it.

Likewise they go to great lengths at the end of the article to spell out what differing Marine armies will get out of this release, and Doctrines aint mentioned once.

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

It's only gross until you realize how much a Centurion costs.

I'm sorry, could you remind me their costs in this book again? I don't remember it from when I first saw it, despite only being a few days in the *future* from now...

We haven't seen points costs. Cents are likely to be high, but we simply don't know yet (unless there's been a release/reveal I've missed).

And if you're applying the rules changes to the current book, you're in "just making up rules" territory.

While it's true we haven't seen the point costs yet, how drastic of point cuts have GW been known for? Sometimes you'll get HUGE ones (I remember when Lychguard and Triarchs were cut from 40 to 25/28 when they got their 7th Ed codex, and I was in disbelief for maybe two weeks), but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to guess they won't be much cheaper.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
They literally killed every non-codex marines with the last news update

Shows your reading comprehension ability. Doctrines are a part of Angels of Death, and all marines get that.

And then in the very next paragraph they state that Doctrines are for Codex adherent chapters. That's a pretty strong implication that non C:SM Astartes aint getting it.

Likewise they go to great lengths at the end of the article to spell out what differing Marine armies will get out of this release, and Doctrines aint mentioned once.

So all space marines are angels of death, but some are more angels of death than others?

 Apple Peel wrote:

So all space marines are angels of death, but some are more angels of death than others?

You say it like broken rules and a marked inability to balance units are an unknown occurrence for GW.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
They literally killed every non-codex marines with the last news update

Shows your reading comprehension ability. Doctrines are a part of Angels of Death, and all marines get that.

And then in the very next paragraph they state that Doctrines are for Codex adherent chapters. That's a pretty strong implication that non C:SM Astartes aint getting it.

Likewise they go to great lengths at the end of the article to spell out what differing Marine armies will get out of this release, and Doctrines aint mentioned once.

So all space marines are angels of death, but some are more angels of death than others?

Yes Codex compliant chapters will RULE the day.
Wait they allready did that compared to the other marines due to gulliman.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

So all space marines are angels of death, but some are more angels of death than others?

You say it like broken rules and a marked inability to balance units are an unknown occurrence for GW.

Have my exalt.

Holy hell, the Combat Doctrines are going to make things with a high RoF insane! Leviathans, Twin Ass Cannons...

 Crazyterran wrote:
Holy hell, the Combat Doctrines are going to make things with a high RoF insane! Leviathans, Twin Ass Cannons...

It further encourages camping, which we absolutely need less of. Say what you will of the balance of -1 to hit armies, but the main complainers were people that wanted to camp and shoot. We need less of that.

It also helps bog standard marines, things like Flamers, Plasma Guns, etc.

Heck, things like Assault Marines will be able to be better at bullying, and you bet the UM will have a stratagem to either go back or use two at once.

 Crazyterran wrote:
It also helps bog standard marines, things like Flamers, Plasma Guns, etc.

Heck, things like Assault Marines will be able to be better at bullying, and you bet the UM will have a stratagem to either go back or use two at once.

Here's a 50$ bet that these are for Primaris only. No way GW is going to let you push their neu-bois out of the spotlight with your old grandpa units. GW just flipped the ENTIRE script. Color my old models squatted.

Dude there is no way every space marine unit is getting on demand -1 AP. This will just be for infantry.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
It also helps bog standard marines, things like Flamers, Plasma Guns, etc.

Heck, things like Assault Marines will be able to be better at bullying, and you bet the UM will have a stratagem to either go back or use two at once.

Here's a 50$ bet that these are for Primaris only. No way GW is going to let you push their neu-bois out of the spotlight with your old grandpa units. GW just flipped the ENTIRE script. Color my old models squatted.

you mean the doctrines? I'll take that bet.

YAY. A 17 pt marine using a doctrine can finally penetrate flak armor like bog standard marines could in 3rd-7th.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude there is no way every space marine unit is getting on demand -1 AP. This will just be for infantry.

I'm not sure, everything seems to be on the table with these changes. I mean, all we were asking for was a wider range of units being able to access Chapter/Legion tactics, now they're just handing out candy like it's a competition.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude there is no way every space marine unit is getting on demand -1 AP. This will just be for infantry.

I'm not sure, everything seems to be on the table with these changes. I mean, all we were asking for was a wider range of units being able to access Chapter/Legion tactics, now they're just handing out candy like it's a competition.

It's just the players that have to deal with the oversugared baby marines running around
and clean up afterwards.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude there is no way every space marine unit is getting on demand -1 AP. This will just be for infantry.

I'm not sure, everything seems to be on the table with these changes. I mean, all we were asking for was a wider range of units being able to access Chapter/Legion tactics, now they're just handing out candy like it's a competition.

Agreed - most of these changes seem over the top and silly but doctrines were always infantry only in 7th. Or maybe they will be once per turn or something. Ultramarines should also get some kind of special proficiency with doctrines - sue to weak AF chapter tactic. Like I have to protest...A levi dread with ap-3 storm cannons is absurd. A dakka repuslor with ap-1 on demand for the cost of free with just remove armies from the table.

they're not once per turn but they're a case of being locked in once you use it, you start with devestator doctrines on, then you can switch to tactical. then to assault. you cannot switch back, and it sounds like when it's on it's on until you switch. Marines are going to be powerful but the real differance between a good marine player and a bad one will be how he applies his doctrines

BoLS states they are Infantry only...for whatever that is worth?

Shouldn't it be part of the angel of death rule, so infantry only?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude there is no way every space marine unit is getting on demand -1 AP. This will just be for infantry.

I'm not sure, everything seems to be on the table with these changes. I mean, all we were asking for was a wider range of units being able to access Chapter/Legion tactics, now they're just handing out candy like it's a competition.

It belongs to Angels of Death. Do tanks get that rule? It seems unlikely. Dreadnoughts might.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude there is no way every space marine unit is getting on demand -1 AP. This will just be for infantry.

I'm not sure, everything seems to be on the table with these changes. I mean, all we were asking for was a wider range of units being able to access Chapter/Legion tactics, now they're just handing out candy like it's a competition.

I agree with Xenos, iirc doctrines only affected infantry in 7th which was one of the reason I wanted to play UM originally. I expect the same for these.

Also fingers crossed UM have a strat for changing your doctrine at will and one for the perfect doctrine if papa smurf is on the field

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

...some stuff arguing otherwise...

I totally take it back, the combo of Phobos +1 to hit, CT, and Bolter Drill (which almost certainly won't survive in it's current form) lets that 18 attack Centurion average 27 actual hits. A full squad of 6 averages 32 MWs.

The Newman wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

...some stuff arguing otherwise...

I totally take it back, the combo of Phobos +1 to hit, CT, and Bolter Drill (which almost certainly won't survive in it's current form) lets that 18 attack Centurion average 27 actual hits. A full squad of 6 averages 32 MWs.

Yea, but how do you get them in range of something that cares before they get tagged?

 fraser1191 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dude there is no way every space marine unit is getting on demand -1 AP. This will just be for infantry.

I'm not sure, everything seems to be on the table with these changes. I mean, all we were asking for was a wider range of units being able to access Chapter/Legion tactics, now they're just handing out candy like it's a competition.

I agree with Xenos, iirc doctrines only affected infantry in 7th which was one of the reason I wanted to play UM originally. I expect the same for these.

Also fingers crossed UM have a strat for changing your doctrine at will and one for the perfect doctrine if papa smurf is on the field

So in essense it would mean ultramarines trait gives you -1 AP available more often. That is not too bad to be honest. Would it be OP if they just had all doctrines up all the time or once per turn you can change your doctrines? It could make up for the terrible chapter tactic. Plus it is fluffy. Ultras are supposed to be the "adaptable" marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

...some stuff arguing otherwise...

I totally take it back, the combo of Phobos +1 to hit, CT, and Bolter Drill (which almost certainly won't survive in it's current form) lets that 18 attack Centurion average 27 actual hits. A full squad of 6 averages 32 MWs.

All you gotta do to fix this is make it unmodified 6's and maybe not have the +1 to wound with bolts strat go to imperial fists - let that be crimson fist only.

I expect it'll be up all the time with more flexibility for UM, with even a 3 CP one that lets you have two at once.

Guess how busted doctrines will be depends on what in the codex will have Angels of Death - if it 's just infantry, then whatever, but if it's Vehicles/Dreads as well...

 Sentineil wrote:
So Stalker Bolters are now scary. With the Devastator Doctrine they're now AP-3 D2. Pretty much Primaris killers.

Even more stoked for eliminators. Str 5 on their guns now and with ap-3. Characters are in serious peril against that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

...some stuff arguing otherwise...

I totally take it back, the combo of Phobos +1 to hit, CT, and Bolter Drill (which almost certainly won't survive in it's current form) lets that 18 attack Centurion average 27 actual hits. A full squad of 6 averages 32 MWs.

Yea, but how do you get them in range of something that cares before they get tagged?

LRC is the only way. Reasonably hard to kill. If chaplain has -1 to hit ability you can protect it MAYBE from turn 1 death sentence. Their range is pretty poor though for 12 of their shots. Even if you line up 24" away on a standard deployment - you will only have a 30ish inch threat range with those cents for turn 1 attack. And loading about 650 points worth of units on the front line without a screen is also a terrible idea. With 2 units of infiltrators you could make that LR uncharagable from deep strike.

Lets put something in perspective here though. That 6 man cent unit is only 20 more points than Gman....How the gak is gman worth that many points? I hope he gets point dropped.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
So Stalker Bolters are now scary. With the Devastator Doctrine they're now AP-3 D2. Pretty much Primaris killers.

Even more stoked for eliminators. Str 5 on their guns now and with ap-3. Characters are in serious peril against that.

has someone done the math for how killy they'll be against space marine characters that lack invul saves? (like Lts and libbys?)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
So Stalker Bolters are now scary. With the Devastator Doctrine they're now AP-3 D2. Pretty much Primaris killers.

Even more stoked for eliminators. Str 5 on their guns now and with ap-3. Characters are in serious peril against that.

has someone done the math for how killy they'll be against space marine characters that lack invul saves? (like Lts and libbys?)

about 2 wounds per unit as salamanders. It's pretty highly variable though since d3 damage and command rerolls will play a big factor.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

...some stuff arguing otherwise...

I totally take it back, the combo of Phobos +1 to hit, CT, and Bolter Drill (which almost certainly won't survive in it's current form) lets that 18 attack Centurion average 27 actual hits. A full squad of 6 averages 32 MWs.

Yea, but how do you get them in range of something that cares before they get tagged?

Raven Guard strat?

If you want to know what gets Angels of Death rule, just look at what got And They Shall Know No Fear and extrapolate.

The Newman wrote:


Raven Guard strat?

But then you dont have the IF start or the cohort.

The part worth talking about is how Primaris are basically 2 Wound 3 Attack Rubric marines now.

lmao.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:


Raven Guard strat?

But then you dont have the IF start or the cohort.

Precepts of Deceit so you can be sure they're directly across the table from the thing you want dead? Gotta give up Priority Target for that. ...math, math, carry the two, more math...25 hits per model instead of 28, plus actually needing Master of the Chapter for the rerolls instead of only missing on ones in the first place.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
The part worth talking about is how Primaris are basically 2 Wound 3 Attack Rubric marines now.

lmao.

Only by round 2, but now I'm sad.

(Well, also minus psychic, the armor boost, and invuln)