New Chapter Tactics, and it seems they apply to all units now!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ultramarines tactic still technically makes FLY units worse (they have to take the -1 to hit when they fall back and shoot) but if it applies to all units with FLY that means a bunch of Ultramarines units just got a nerf.
I disagree for Raven Guard. +1 to the save is still really good and you can still get a -1 to hit on TOP of that.
Crimson Fists are the worst previewed due to the minimum unit size restrictions typically done and not really handling the fact that Pedro can hit a squad of 2 Gaunts more accurately than he hits an Imperial Knight or even a Dreadnought.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I disagree for Raven Guard. +1 to the save is still really good and you can still get a -1 to hit on TOP of that.
I misread the ability. Yeah, I think it's pretty good. Slightly worse for Infantry in that they need to hug terrain to get the -1, but still very strong. A fair compromise as it was already a very strong tactic.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I disagree for Raven Guard. +1 to the save is still really good and you can still get a -1 to hit on TOP of that.
Crimson Fists are the worst previewed due to the minimum unit size restrictions typically done and not really handling the fact that Pedro can hit a squad of 2 Gaunts more accurately than he hits an Imperial Knight or even a Dreadnought.
They could always do that.
In cover they are exactly like old ravens, -1 to hit and +1 save.
Out of cover the old ravens had -1 to hit, the new ravens have +1 save.
I count this one as a nerf honestly. (But cover is applied to vehicles, which is good).
I really like the look of these and I notice that all the bonuses do seem very neatly locked into pieces added on top of each other. Looking at the existing options I personally believe we will see a lot of these (if not all) make there way into the custom chapter picking any two which would be great for giving them versatility, but perhaps the at the cost of not having access to the supplement books. Who knows.
So far I really like the salamander option due to it being an awesome and reliable way to pour out damage with tons of re-rolls and really nice to buff the power fist sergeants on top of now being immune to -1 attacks which are quite common. That will for sure save them some wounds. Even on high rof weapons 1 free re-roll to hit and to wound is going to make a difference.
The Iron Hand one reminds me a bit of the deathskull orks because it's caked with benefits. They retain the 6+ FNP which is nice (especially on vehicles and primaris) with now doubling their efficiency in overwatch which any Tau player can tell you is really solid and finally their vehicles pretty much ignore the damage table until dead which again I think is a potentially underrated bonus that will really make a difference.
It's hardly a nerf. Mathematically it might be a little less, but hugging cover isn't impossible and vehicles get the +1 to the save too. That's more a sidegrade than anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also didn't think much about the double wounds on vehicles. That's godly for Contemtor variants.
... The ability to Advance and charge grants them the equivalent of a 3D6 charge range, and models equipped with Assault weapons – such as Intercessors with auto bolt rifles – can fire at full accuracy even as they do...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's hardly a nerf. Mathematically it might be a little less, but hugging cover isn't impossible and vehicles get the +1 to the save too. That's more a sidegrade than anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also didn't think much about the double wounds on vehicles. That's godly for Contemtor variants.
Yeah. Infantry are going to be slightly worse off, but vehicles better than they were.
I think it is a slight nerf because -1 to hit anywhere on the battlefield (over 12") is just that good that any restriction on it isn't quite balanced by the positives.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's hardly a nerf. Mathematically it might be a little less, but hugging cover isn't impossible and vehicles get the +1 to the save too. That's more a sidegrade than anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also didn't think much about the double wounds on vehicles. That's godly for Contemtor variants.
Yeah. Infantry are going to be slightly worse off, but vehicles better than they were.
I think it is a slight nerf because -1 to hit anywhere on the battlefield (over 12") is just that good that any restriction on it isn't quite balanced by the positives.
In regards to these tactics I think it's important to note that they are coming with full supplements to augment these rules and some of the rules found in said supplements may completely change how we view these tactics. People praising the Iron Hand and Salamander ones (such as myself) might be very let down to find out their supplement rules are rather lame where as a tactic I personally consider weaker (White scars) might have amazing supplement rules.
I am going to predict right now though that Iron Hands have a way to make a unit have a 5+ FNP. It's either going to be 1 cp strat to increase their fnp by 1 or a character aura.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: In regards to these tactics I think it's important to note that they are coming with full supplements to augment these rules and some of the rules found in said supplements may completely change how we view these tactics. People praising the Iron Hand and Salamander ones (such as myself) might be very let down to find out their supplement rules are rather lame where as a tactic I personally consider weaker (White scars) might have amazing supplement rules.
I am going to predict right now though that Iron Hands have a way to make a unit have a 5+ FNP. It's either going to be 1 cp strat to increase their fnp by 1 or a character aura.
Very true, but until we have more details this is what we have. We can still evaluate how powerful these abilities are, and adjust from there with any new information.
Reemule wrote: I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.
Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.
Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.
Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.
LOL don't make me laugh. You are also tying down a unit when you can't shoot. It is fething terrible. The -1 should be removed - it is plainly obvious to anyone unbiased. You know what is stupid good? An ironhands razorback getting the same number of hits in overwatch and having a 6+ FNP and ignoring degrading profiles.
Fall back and shoot is still really good. I’d hold off on UM being not great until we see stratagems. There could be stuff that benefits max unit sizes that would bring their leadership bonus more into play. Who knows at this point.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.
Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.
I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.
Quasistellar wrote: Fall back and shoot is still really good. I’d hold off on UM being not great until we see stratagems. There could be stuff that benefits max unit sizes that would bring their leadership bonus more into play. Who knows at this point.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.
Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.
I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.
Just have to settle for access to Tiggy, Gman, Calgar, etc etc etc.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.
Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.
I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.
It's really not dude.
Consider gameplay. Most units can't fall back and charge so when you fallback to shoot you have to kill that unit or it just charges something else. More often than not you are better off leaving yourself locked. ESP with a rhino type chassis which can hold up even a powerful unit for a few turns. Fall back and shoot to get a few hits and maybe do 1 damage is worth dick. Intercessors who stay locked put out almost twice the damage if they stay locked as opposed to falling back. In the few situations it actually helps you - you were likely winning anyways - the -1 to hit needs to be removed AND it will still be the worst tactic available. it is indisputable.
Quasistellar wrote: Fall back and shoot is still really good. I’d hold off on UM being not great until we see stratagems. There could be stuff that benefits max unit sizes that would bring their leadership bonus more into play. Who knows at this point.
Plus you just can’t ignore Gman, sorry.
Hard to ignore him. Hes 400 fething points.
Personally I wish they’d nerf his auras, and maybe they will along with a points drop. After seeing the stalker bolter change and the upgraded CT I’m not sure I’d rule anything out just yet. All will be revealed in a week, so I’m trying to stay positive.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.
Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.
I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.
Just have to settle for access to Tiggy, Gman, Calgar, etc etc etc.
None of that makes up for 2-3 bonus stats added to all the units in your army. +1LD is wortless (You get fearless from ancient banner (our best model)) and fall back and shoot at -1 is literally useless - you are better off staying locked and denying them a charge. Maybe helpful vs kraken hormies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.
Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.
I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.
Just have to settle for access to Tiggy, Gman, Calgar, etc etc etc.
It's also about how you leverage it too. If you shoot and make a charge, you either force your opponent to fall back or you get to fall back and shoot again. Better with Flying stuff of course that will most likely make a charge and got high movement and shooting.
Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.
If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.
Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...
I kind of like the change to the Raven Guard and hope the same is applied to Alpha Legion. My one concerne is the same as any trait that gives out cover, the second you come across someone playing Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists or Flayed Skull you're trait becomes worthless.
I'd say Stugies VIII and Alaitoc should get the same as well but it clashes with Shroud Psalm for Stygies and Alaitoc's defining trait is having the largest population of any Craftworld and disciplined adherance to the Path system, not stealth.
That Iron Hand one is tempting. With the change to the RG one, 6+++ compares pretty well. Really only thing I don’t like with it is that it can’t stack with a Venerable Dreadnought’s innate fnp (right?). Seems a little weird to me that a chapter like Iron Hands wouldn’t want to run Venerables.
Reemule wrote: Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.
If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.
Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...
Much better profile now.
Leadership isn't important though. Get real. Eldar can already do that nonsense. Silly gimicks doesn't win games. Not having worthless stats does help though.
...Also, the note for the UM one is kinda odd to me. Sure, it’s good someone at GW noticed a Redeemer is even worse than before without the ability to fallback and fire. But that’s suppose to be a Salamander and BA favored tank, right? Why don’t those chapters have a usable assault range tank? Hopefully they have a strat to allow fall back and shoot with -1 or something.
Reemule wrote: Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.
If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.
Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...
Much better profile now.
Leadership isn't important though. Get real. Eldar can already do that nonsense. Silly gimicks doesn't win games. Not having worthless stats does help though.
I do agree that the LD stat isn't being used to its full potential. Someone threw out the idea of it affecting how you control objectives which I liked.
bort wrote: ...Also, the note for the UM one is kinda odd to me. Sure, it’s good someone at GW noticed a Redeemer is even worse than before without the ability to fallback and fire. But that’s suppose to be a Salamander and BA favored tank, right? Why don’t those chapters have a usable assault range tank? Hopefully they have a strat to allow fall back and shoot with -1 or something.
It's someone's lame attempt to make the trait which hasn't changed from it exsisting codex wording seem relevant when compaired to the Others which are in some cases 3 traits rolled into 1
Iron hands now has
Tau spet Trait over watch (Best Tau sept)
House hawkshroud trait (second or third best Knights house)
And a 6+ FNP
If the Ravenguard change goes game wide expect Ignore cover to be a big trait till everyone gives up on the old -1 to hit lists.
Really Leadership matters in 8th edition you have to be having a laugh seriously.
Imateria wrote: I kind of like the change to the Raven Guard and hope the same is applied to Alpha Legion. My one concerne is the same as any trait that gives out cover, the second you come across someone playing Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists or Flayed Skull you're trait becomes worthless.
I'd say Stugies VIII and Alaitoc should get the same as well but it clashes with Shroud Psalm for Stygies and Alaitoc's defining trait is having the largest population of any Craftworld and disciplined adherance to the Path system, not stealth.
I think its a be careful what you wish for situation.
People have been constantly agitating to make it count as cover rather than be -1 to hit. Okay - but with 3+ saves normally, I don't think you are worse off until you are facing AP3 shots.
Against bolters:
Old:
1/2*1/2*1/3.=1/12
New:
2/3*1/2*1/6=1/18.
Against Heavy Bolter:
Old:
1/2*2/3*1/2=1/6.
New:
2/3*2/3*1/3=4/27.
A Krak missile or something with AP-2.
Old:
1/2*5/6*2/3=5/18
New:
2/3*5/6*1/2=5/18
There is a nerf that things like IW/IF/flayed skull exist (along with various guns/upgrades that ignore cover) - which might see more play if this rule becomes universal. There is also a nerf (and this one might be more realistic) in that you can't stack being in cover from say prepared positions with the -1 to hit.
The numbers may look different on say Eldar/Stygies where 3+ armour isn't universal. (Although it can still be common enough versus the things you can actually shoot at.)
Reemule wrote: Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.
If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.
Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...
Much better profile now.
Leadership isn't important though. Get real. Eldar can already do that nonsense. Silly gimicks doesn't win games. Not having worthless stats does help though.
People weren't saying that with the old GSC death beam.
Reemule wrote: Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.
If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.
Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...
Much better profile now.
Leadership isn't important though. Get real. Eldar can already do that nonsense. Silly gimicks doesn't win games. Not having worthless stats does help though.
People weren't saying that with the old GSC death beam.
Quote the one broken combo that made the stat matter oh wait it really didn't given they had the abilities to achieve an automatic outclass by 6 points anyway in a ld 10 model.
So on a roll of a 6 my HQ'S don't loose a wound like they FAQ'D it to for everyone.
Wasn't there a rumor about the "-1 to hit rules if at more than 12" away" changing to "in cover if at more than 12" away" ? I guess we're finally seeing the early signs of that then.
Kind of wish they would have done that in an Errata instead of new codices. There's a lot of armies that have that gimmick.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wasn't there a rumor about the "-1 to hit rules if at more than 12" away" changing to "in cover if at more than 12" away" ? I guess we're finally seeing the early signs of that then.
Kind of wish they would have done that in an Errata instead of new codices. There's a lot of armies that have that gimmick.
That was only conjecture because of later on rules.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wasn't there a rumor about the "-1 to hit rules if at more than 12" away" changing to "in cover if at more than 12" away" ? I guess we're finally seeing the early signs of that then.
Kind of wish they would have done that in an Errata instead of new codices. There's a lot of armies that have that gimmick.
It's much the same now. A lot of times a +1 armor is equal to a -1 to hit. Sometimes it's better.
Insectum7 wrote: UM vehicles able to fire after falling back is $$$. My Land Raiders might actually see some combat.
Also, Salamanders ignoring the save mod from AP -1 is awesome.
The only unit it really benifits is a LR. Even then - a repulsor can fall back and shoot already and if it is iron hands it's more survivable and close to being unchargeable on top ofignoring degrading profile and having more firepower.
Insectum7 wrote: UM vehicles able to fire after falling back is $$$. My Land Raiders might actually see some combat.
Also, Salamanders ignoring the save mod from AP -1 is awesome.
Or you could have a 6+ FNP repulsor that overwatches on 5+ and counts as double it's wounds for damage.
And can fallback and shoot at full BS anyway.
Unlike Ultra repulsors which overwatch on 6+ and fall back and shoot at -1.
As a person that does not own any flying Primaris vehicles, and is not looking to own any Primaris flying vehicles, it's Land Raiders and Razorbacks all day every day for me.
Insectum7 wrote: As a person that does not own any flying Primaris vehicles, and is not looking to own any Primaris flying vehicles, it's Land Raiders and Razorbacks all day every day for me.
depending upon your play group Blue Ravens might be better as 2+ in cover vehicals would be painful to a lot of the low AP multi damage weapons.
3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
Insectum7 wrote: As a person that does not own any flying Primaris vehicles, and is not looking to own any Primaris flying vehicles, it's Land Raiders and Razorbacks all day every day for me.
depending upon your play group Blue Ravens might be better as 2+ in cover vehicals would be painful to a lot of the low AP multi damage weapons.
Potentially, although I'm comfotable popping the defensive stratagem for first turn if I have to.
Ishagu wrote: 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
Insectum7 wrote: As a person that does not own any flying Primaris vehicles, and is not looking to own any Primaris flying vehicles, it's Land Raiders and Razorbacks all day every day for me.
depending upon your play group Blue Ravens might be better as 2+ in cover vehicals would be painful to a lot of the low AP multi damage weapons.
Potentially, although I'm comfotable popping the defensive stratagem for first turn if I have to.
Or go Iron hands for Tau sept trait (best Tau trait) and Hawkshroud Trait (2/3 best Knight Trait) with a bonus 6+++ for the Lolz.
Because who wouldn't want to fight against an army stacking one of the best triats with a mid teir trait and a third trait.
Ishagu wrote: As of right now the Ultramarines have by far the worst chapter tactic, and it actively nerfs some of the units in the book. Terrible.
Salamanders and Iron Hands are incredible. Guilliman does not make up for the shortfall.
well Ultramarines also gotta factor in tiggy, calgar, every other special char etc keep in mind we have no idea what the new stratigiums will be, if the new SM strats are godly good, then gulliman and calgar will have an additional benifit .
Ishagu wrote: 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
400 points less and more durable.
To what targets? Ya know, before you throw a single Gaunt at them and they can't shoot anymore?
Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(
Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!
Ishagu wrote: 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
400 points less and more durable.
To what targets? Ya know, before you throw a single Gaunt at them and they can't shoot anymore?
To the targets they are designed to kill. The ones that matter.
Saving that 400 points gives you enough for two Guard battalions you can use to screen and an extra unit on top. Now you see my point?
Suddenly my Astartes units are getting free re rolls, more durability against a common AP value, and an extra 64 bodies to protect them, not to mention 10 CP.
Ishagu wrote: 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
400 points less and more durable.
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
How is rerolling one miss almost identical to rerolling all misses and all failed wounds?
I get that you'll often not get more than 1 miss anyway (out of 4 hit rolls for a quad las Predator), so on the hit roll it is not far off Guilliman (though it is still a bit behind). But not getting the re-roll wounds is massive, it's a huge part of Guilliman's value.
I might be missing something here, so please share your maths.
Salamanders can also reroll one failed wound per unit.
It's not as good as rerolling everything (there's always those times when you roll three 1 and a 2), but it's pretty darn good for low shot, high damage platforms.
Crazyterran wrote: Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(
Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!
I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.
but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.
Sallies differ from Gman for a Pred if 2+ shots fail to hit or 2+ wounds fail to wound.
Odds that 2+ shots fail to hit I think ~30% of the time.
Effectively 25% (or more) additional firepower 30% of the time is roughly 7.5% increased firepower on it's own.
The wounding is a bit harder to calculate, but it's less than Hitting (although they compound - they aren't independent). They also vary by target.
So Sallys are worse off than Gman. But then, Sallies get 400 more points of stuff to compensate.
Now, Sally Preds with a Captain/LT are a lot closer. Hitting is down to ~12% chance for Gman to mean anything, or an EV of about 3% increased throughput. Wounding would again be less than hitting.
Crazyterran wrote: Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(
Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!
I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.
but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.
Except maybe 6CP over the game for a Warlord trait is pretty bad return on the investment. Even if you do take the pain and make Gman your warlord it's not a good trait as your already taking a hit on detachments and could have had 5 CP for 180 points.
Pre Grand strategist nerfing all regen traits it was worthwhile.
Now he needs to be handing out free strategums per turn to be worth 400points.
Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.
There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.
Guilliman also boosts Scout snipers massively if you go for a mortal fishing army. Those guys put up better AT numbers than most AT units due to mortals. Guilliman buffing is the main counter argument to what I wrote above, no way can his aura be table sized.
Crazyterran wrote: Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(
Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!
I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.
but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.
Except maybe 6CP over the game for a Warlord trait is pretty bad return on the investment. Even if you do take the pain and make Gman your warlord it's not a good trait as your already taking a hit on detachments and could have had 5 CP for 180 points.
Pre Grand strategist nerfing all regen traits it was worthwhile.
Now he needs to be handing out free strategums per turn to be worth 400points.
well no if you take Gulliman for a warlord trait you're an idiot. (considering you can get the warlord trait for a 100 point captain instead) Gulliman's problem is he offers a LOT to an army but not all at once, he offers amazing support to a gunline yes, but he's ALSO a melee powerhouse. etc. part of me wonders if, especially in light of shock assault he might be better off rushing up the board with a selection of space marine units that are geared for melee.
bort wrote: Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.
There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.
Guilliman also boosts Scout snipers massively if you go for a mortal fishing army. Those guys put up better AT numbers than most AT units due to mortals. Guilliman buffing is the main counter argument to what I wrote above, no way can his aura be table sized.
MW is an overused mechanic period way to many to make high defences with low wounds a sound investment.
Reroll wounds was a bad mechanic period, it rewards using the wrong weapon against the wrong target more than using the right weapons on the right targets.
Crazyterran wrote: Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(
Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!
I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.
but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.
Except maybe 6CP over the game for a Warlord trait is pretty bad return on the investment. Even if you do take the pain and make Gman your warlord it's not a good trait as your already taking a hit on detachments and could have had 5 CP for 180 points.
Pre Grand strategist nerfing all regen traits it was worthwhile.
Now he needs to be handing out free strategums per turn to be worth 400points.
well no if you take Gulliman for a warlord trait you're an idiot. (considering you can get the warlord trait for a 100 point captain instead) Gulliman's problem is he offers a LOT to an army but not all at once, he offers amazing support to a gunline yes, but he's ALSO a melee powerhouse. etc. part of me wonders if, especially in light of shock assault he might be better off rushing up the board with a selection of space marine units that are geared for melee.
Or I could get the same warlord trait on a 30 point guard HQ.
Simple put the Ultramarines Warlord trait which Gman, Calgar Tiggy etc are forced to take isn't a good choice but you don't get a choice.
Now Gman with a choice of Warlord traits might be worth the terrible chapter tactic.
bort wrote: Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.
There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.
Yeah, it was 4th. There was a bonus perk of having to shoot the closest unit unless you passed a Ld check, too. With the Captain all marines had Ld 10. Better morale, better fire discipline. Awesome.
Sicarius gave his Ld for several editions after that. I took him a lot.
bort wrote: Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.
There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.
Guilliman also boosts Scout snipers massively if you go for a mortal fishing army. Those guys put up better AT numbers than most AT units due to mortals. Guilliman buffing is the main counter argument to what I wrote above, no way can his aura be table sized.
MW is an overused mechanic period way to many to make high defences with low wounds a sound investment.
Reroll wounds was a bad mechanic period, it rewards using the wrong weapon against the wrong target more than using the right weapons on the right targets.
Crazyterran wrote: Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(
Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!
I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.
but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.
Except maybe 6CP over the game for a Warlord trait is pretty bad return on the investment. Even if you do take the pain and make Gman your warlord it's not a good trait as your already taking a hit on detachments and could have had 5 CP for 180 points.
Pre Grand strategist nerfing all regen traits it was worthwhile.
Now he needs to be handing out free strategums per turn to be worth 400points.
well no if you take Gulliman for a warlord trait you're an idiot. (considering you can get the warlord trait for a 100 point captain instead) Gulliman's problem is he offers a LOT to an army but not all at once, he offers amazing support to a gunline yes, but he's ALSO a melee powerhouse. etc. part of me wonders if, especially in light of shock assault he might be better off rushing up the board with a selection of space marine units that are geared for melee.
Or I could get the same warlord trait on a 30 point guard HQ.
Simple put the Ultramarines Warlord trait which Gman, Calgar Tiggy etc are forced to take isn't a good choice but you don't get a choice.
Now Gman with a choice of Warlord traits might be worth the terrible chapter tactic.
Mw is just the reaction to the invulnerable Inflation imo.
Both sides of the same coin.
Edit: i do wonder though if they atleast update the csm mirror tactics.
And or add sideffects for non replicable legion traits for stuff like we, WB, RC, etc.
bort wrote: Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.
There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.
Yeah, it was 4th. There was a bonus perk of having to shoot the closest unit unless you passed a Ld check, too. With the Captain all marines had Ld 10. Better morale, better fire discipline. Awesome.
Sicarius gave his Ld for several editions after that. I took him a lot.
being able to get aura bonuses anywhere on the table would be insane. it'd make marines NUTS, at the same time I think it would solve a thematic issue with marines. right now marine HQs teeend to stay at the back with a firing line directing fire, this might work for say a gaurd army or something, but with Marines, thats not what I think of, I think of the captain directing the battle while rushing in where the fighting is thickest to contribute personally. and that change would allow it, of course it might make marines broken, I mean the end result would be Gulliman rushing forward and using his insane melee capability while the gunline in the back reins down the rediculas firepower.. I can hear the cries of hate now.
Hellebore wrote: Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?
What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book
because the core rules are the CORE RULES. the supplements are optional. If I wanna play the ultramarines I don't NEED the ultramarines supplement. I might want it for the unique charaters and units sure, but it's also not nesscary.(the supplemental codexes thing is also being done to cut down on the number of pages in codex space marines, make no mistake)
Hellebore wrote: Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?
What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book
because the core rules are the CORE RULES. the supplements are optional. If I wanna play the ultramarines I don't NEED the ultramarines supplement. I might want it for the unique charaters and units sure, but it's also not nesscary.(the supplemental codexes thing is also being done to cut down on the number of pages in codex space marines, make no mistake)
Yeah I agree it's nice to have the basic Chapter Tactics and common datasheets/powers/relics/strats etc in a single book (as now) but then added OPTIONAL units/characters/powers/strats and even Successor traits in other books if you so desire.
I'll be picking up the main Codex only. My sons will then buy their respective supplements (UM & Salamanders)
This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?
This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?
This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?
how much does an Ork Boy cost?
How much does a tactical marine cost in the new codex?
bort wrote: Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.
There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.
Yeah, it was 4th. There was a bonus perk of having to shoot the closest unit unless you passed a Ld check, too. With the Captain all marines had Ld 10. Better morale, better fire discipline. Awesome.
Sicarius gave his Ld for several editions after that. I took him a lot.
being able to get aura bonuses anywhere on the table would be insane. it'd make marines NUTS, at the same time I think it would solve a thematic issue with marines. right now marine HQs teeend to stay at the back with a firing line directing fire, this might work for say a gaurd army or something, but with Marines, thats not what I think of, I think of the captain directing the battle while rushing in where the fighting is thickest to contribute personally. and that change would allow it, of course it might make marines broken, I mean the end result would be Gulliman rushing forward and using his insane melee capability while the gunline in the back reins down the rediculas firepower.. I can hear the cries of hate now.
I was thinking of a way to get out of the 6" aura problem without also having guilliman be an issue a little while ago. Essentially, Aura's would still be present, but for units with a Sergeant or equivalent, they would still get the benefit of Aura's, from HQ units only, when outside of the regular 6" range. This way, units that don't thematically have a sergeant, like BA Death company, blood talons i think, and a few other's, would still need a character babysitter, while other more disciplined units could freely move about the board.
My one caveat to this would be to add the ability to target Sergeants and such with dedicated Sniper weapons, so that there is still a risk of losing your buff to specific units if the opponent has snipers. I dont think this will make any dedicated sniper unit like scouts or eldar rangers any better, but it might give them a nniche use at least.
This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?
how much does an Ork Boy cost?
How much does a tactical marine cost in the new codex?
This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?
how much does an Ork Boy cost?
How much does a tactical marine cost in the new codex?
...13 points...
6 points for (Crimson Fist):
+1 Movement
+3 Ballistic
+1 WS +3 Save
+3 Leadership
Better Dakka Dakka
Ignores Terrain
A better comparison would be Nob vs Primaris, but that's obvious who that would favour.
Ishagu wrote: As of right now the Ultramarines have by far the worst chapter tactic, and it actively nerfs some of the units in the book. Terrible.
Nothing wrong with it, if you know how to use your units. Of course, if you are an inexperienced and naive player that doesn't know how to properly utilise it, you might think it is worthless.
Eonfuzz wrote: Crimson fists get +1 to hit against anything larger (squad size) than them.
Which is why it's an actively worse Chapter Tactic than any of the other ones. Imperial Fists at least potentially screw with how the opponent might deploy. The bolt bonus is just, well, a bonus on top of that.
Remember folks: Pedro Kantor hits two Gaunts more effectively than he hits a Hive Tyrant or Dreadknight or even an Imperial Knight!
This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?
how much does an Ork Boy cost?
How much does a tactical marine cost in the new codex?
...13 points...
6 points for (Crimson Fist):
+1 Movement
+3 Ballistic
+1 WS +3 Save
+3 Leadership
Better Dakka Dakka
Ignores Terrain
A better comparison would be Nob vs Primaris, but that's obvious who that would favour.
Eonfuzz wrote: ...the unique Ork rule being handed out to marines...
So you've been foaming at the mouth about the Black Templars having a rule functioning the same as WAAAGH! all edition?
The Waaaagh! Aura hardly counts as a unique rule. Bring back the once per game you can announce "WAAAAAGH" and I'd call it so.
wait are you refering to the "an unmodified roll of 6 adds an extra hit?" cause thats just a translation of the Imperial fists old 6th/7th edition chapter tactic.
So did anyone do the math for the new Black Templar tactic in terms of charging from Deep Strike? I hate doing math for something like that in particular.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So did anyone do the math for the new Black Templar tactic in terms of charging from Deep Strike? I hate doing math for something like that in particular.
It'd be similar to the Ork math, iirc it was about ~60%
bort wrote: Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.
There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.
Yeah, it was 4th. There was a bonus perk of having to shoot the closest unit unless you passed a Ld check, too. With the Captain all marines had Ld 10. Better morale, better fire discipline. Awesome.
Sicarius gave his Ld for several editions after that. I took him a lot.
being able to get aura bonuses anywhere on the table would be insane. it'd make marines NUTS, at the same time I think it would solve a thematic issue with marines. right now marine HQs teeend to stay at the back with a firing line directing fire, this might work for say a gaurd army or something, but with Marines, thats not what I think of, I think of the captain directing the battle while rushing in where the fighting is thickest to contribute personally. and that change would allow it, of course it might make marines broken, I mean the end result would be Gulliman rushing forward and using his insane melee capability while the gunline in the back reins down the rediculas firepower.. I can hear the cries of hate now.
I was thinking of a way to get out of the 6" aura problem without also having guilliman be an issue a little while ago. Essentially, Aura's would still be present, but for units with a Sergeant or equivalent, they would still get the benefit of Aura's, from HQ units only, when outside of the regular 6" range. This way, units that don't thematically have a sergeant, like BA Death company, blood talons i think, and a few other's, would still need a character babysitter, while other more disciplined units could freely move about the board.
My one caveat to this would be to add the ability to target Sergeants and such with dedicated Sniper weapons, so that there is still a risk of losing your buff to specific units if the opponent has snipers. I dont think this will make any dedicated sniper unit like scouts or eldar rangers any better, but it might give them a nniche use at least.
Making Sgts (and sniping the sgts) mean something would be interesting though that change would have to be done for all armies that have them.
I'd have liked to see something like this:
Captain/Chapter Master gives his reroll to entire table. Captains are limited to 1 per detachment. No more 3 smash captains leading 15 scouts, but you also don't wish you had 2-3 for aura coverage.
Lieutenants could either be 6" or 12" aura. Reasoning could be like they all have the communication gear sure, but the Lieutenants aren't as experienced at reading the distant battlefield as the Captain and so can only improve close by combatants.
Guilliman could either be changed to reroll all hits and only reroll 1s to wound granted across the whole table or keep the 6" size bubble for the reroll all wounds.
Chaplains stay 6", but changed to not overlap buffs with Captains.
I don't think it'd make Marines too nuts. As is, the bulk of an army tends to get some rerolls already, tablewide is more of a mobility thing. Also, if you do charge your Captain into the heaviest fighting, you're in danger of losing your army wide buff.
Edit: Oh, and yes I realize this would conflict with the announced Salamander bonus a fair bit as you wouldn't need the hit rerolls, presumably their bonus would be different.
I'm fully assuming GW is going to leave everything with the 6" bubbles as is in the nex codex, cause that's what they've done for all the armies, but it'd have been cool to avoid that mould at least somewhat.
Hellebore wrote: Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?
What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book
because the core rules are the CORE RULES. the supplements are optional. If I wanna play the ultramarines I don't NEED the ultramarines supplement. I might want it for the unique charaters and units sure, but it's also not nesscary.(the supplemental codexes thing is also being done to cut down on the number of pages in codex space marines, make no mistake)
For functional purposes they aren't optional. I've never met a player in 20 years who plays their favorite army and doesn't buy the rules for their favorite army. It's a bit absurd to think that's true for any significant amount of people. Also, your opponent can use them which again makes them non-optional.
Ultramarine tactic is excessively strong as FLY is probably the most important special rule in the entire game and now their ENTIRE army basically has a version of it. Makes almost all of their vehicles instantly more useful.
Hellebore wrote: Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?
What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book
because the core rules are the CORE RULES. the supplements are optional. If I wanna play the ultramarines I don't NEED the ultramarines supplement. I might want it for the unique charaters and units sure, but it's also not nesscary.(the supplemental codexes thing is also being done to cut down on the number of pages in codex space marines, make no mistake)
For functional purposes they aren't optional. I've never met a player in 20 years who plays their favorite army and doesn't buy the rules for their favorite army. It's a bit absurd to think that's true for any significant amount of people. Also, your opponent can use them which again makes them non-optional.
Ultramarine tactic is excessively strong as FLY is probably the most important special rule in the entire game and now their ENTIRE army basically has a version of it. Makes almost all of their vehicles instantly more useful.
Except it isn't a version of fly. It immitates flys ability with a -1 without coming close to it's second ability which allows you to fly over units. Then lets look at your best units in your army.
Repuslors...have fly. Intercessors...better in CC with a bolt pistol shot than they are falling back with a -1. It is a passable trait for dreads if you don't get surrounded. Basically every vehicle uses heavy weapons so effectively a -2 when you fall back. Do you know what it's like paying marine prices to hit on 5's? It's kinda like getting kicked directly in the balls.
BrianDavion wrote: repulsors are a best space marine unit? funny all I hear is that they suck.
Relic levi is the best space marine unit. Repuslors are probably number 2 and yes...they do suck compared to the feild. However. With the iron hands tactic they get a big boost to survivability to sustainability - they are pretty dang good as iron hands.
Reemule wrote: I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.
Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.
Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders. In order for improved overwatch to really pay out, you need to be able to destroy the unit before your next movement phase otherwise, it's still your final futile defiance before your tank becomes an expensive paperweight. Tau works because they can fire a big bucket of stuff in support of the unit being charged to wipe out somebody in overwatch.
The Raven Guard change is almost certainly a nerf, but 2+ armorsaves for all tanks isn't unwelcome.
I think Salamanders looks very good universally, and Crimsfists looks a little niche but also fairly good.
Well iron hands getting a good overwatch and a good vehicle rules makes them super powerful.
Most of the rules seem powerful and the salamanders getting that durability buff is great. Especially the -1 ap going to 0 makes marines super fun. Though ultramarines are finally put in their place and nerfed a bit in comparision to the other factions because of how strong they are with Bobby G
in addition white scars and black templar become the defacto charge armies, making all assault infantry incredibly powerful
BrianDavion wrote: repulsors are a best space marine unit? funny all I hear is that they suck.
Relic levi is the best space marine unit. Repuslors are probably number 2 and yes...they do suck compared to the feild. However. With the iron hands tactic they get a big boost to survivability to sustainability - they are pretty dang good as iron hands.
The repulsor is also super meta-dependent. The shooting is pretty good, but the -2 to charge distances can be game-changing in several match-ups. Chaos, orks, genestealers, and nids can all get hurt quite a bit by have a -2 to charge.
I note that whtie scars and ultramariens seem weakest but are the first chapters with codex supplements, makes me wonder if those two chapters are going to be the more stratigium (or even Libarian) dependant
Reemule wrote: I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.
Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.
Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders. In order for improved overwatch to really pay out, you need to be able to destroy the unit before your next movement phase otherwise, it's still your final futile defiance before your tank becomes an expensive paperweight. Tau works because they can fire a big bucket of stuff in support of the unit being charged to wipe out somebody in overwatch.
The Raven Guard change is almost certainly a nerf, but 2+ armorsaves for all tanks isn't unwelcome.
I think Salamanders looks very good universally, and Crimsfists looks a little niche but also fairly good.
You forgot there were three parts to that Tactic. Iron Hands are easily going to be better than Salamanders.
Marines weren't dying that much to AP-1 before anyway.
BrianDavion wrote: I note that whtie scars and ultramariens seem weakest but are the first chapters with codex supplements, makes me wonder if those two chapters are going to be the more stratigium (or even Libarian) dependant
White scars are supposed to have the second most powerful psykers in the Adeptus Astartes. And should have their own psychic powers and their own units.
I do hope this means we are getting our Khan Guards. And Daos.
Lets hope we also get some old weapons from horus heresy for our captains.
Reemule wrote: I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.
Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.
Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders. In order for improved overwatch to really pay out, you need to be able to destroy the unit before your next movement phase otherwise, it's still your final futile defiance before your tank becomes an expensive paperweight. Tau works because they can fire a big bucket of stuff in support of the unit being charged to wipe out somebody in overwatch.
The Raven Guard change is almost certainly a nerf, but 2+ armorsaves for all tanks isn't unwelcome.
I think Salamanders looks very good universally, and Crimsfists looks a little niche but also fairly good.
You forgot there were three parts to that Tactic. Iron Hands are easily going to be better than Salamanders.
Marines weren't dying that much to AP-1 before anyway.
The Valhalla or Mordian bonuses aren't good on their own, I don't know why they'd be good glued together since they don't build on each other or anything. Maybe something from Valhalla building with the 6+++, but that seems pretty edge case making a difference.
I think Salamanders will blow Iron Hands away. Re-rolling a to-hit and to wound is really good for Marine armor, almost certainly better than a 5+ overwatch and the Valhallan ability. The AP1 ignoring is basically pointless.
To be fair with the IH power balance, it really needs all 3 parts, right? Just the 6+++ and everyone considered it the weakest. Almost every other chapter picked up a decent second power, so if IH only got a comparable second they'd still be in the weakest. They really needed either 3 or a really good secondary.
Other than the Ultramarines and maybe Raven Guard, every single space marine chapter improved. I really hope they at least remove the infantry restriction for the CSM traits to help compensate. Knowing our luck though, that won't happen.
the real thing we can't be sure of is the "Create a chapter" rules. I've got a hunch they'll actually be slightly stronger then the first founder stuff to make up for not having stratigiums and a librarius school
I think RG got kinda shafted too. Even if we call the -1 to cover change a sidegrade instead of nerf, they still didn't get a second power with it. It's not as bad as UM, but still kinda sucks for them and they don't have the slate of special units and characters like UM to have more potential areas to compensate in.
bort wrote: To be fair with the IH power balance, it really needs all 3 parts, right? Just the 6+++ and everyone considered it the weakest. Almost every other chapter picked up a decent second power, so if IH only got a comparable second they'd still be in the weakest. They really needed either 3 or a really good secondary.
IMO it is was only weak because it didn't apply to vehicles.
White scars have easy first turn charges now, and are the best faction for jetpacks.
Don't underestimate them.
Those who play kraken nids know fully well just how strong it is to fall back and charge with flying units. There is nothing safe in the opponent's field.
Scout bikes advancing 20", shooting shotguns and then charging is a decent first move against screens. If primaris ever get hoverbikes, they become the best chapter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, whitescar multimelta attack bike squads are fun. 50 points for a 4W model which is in short range of melta turn 1 without penalties.
Reemule wrote: I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.
Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.
Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders. In order for improved overwatch to really pay out, you need to be able to destroy the unit before your next movement phase otherwise, it's still your final futile defiance before your tank becomes an expensive paperweight. Tau works because they can fire a big bucket of stuff in support of the unit being charged to wipe out somebody in overwatch.
The Raven Guard change is almost certainly a nerf, but 2+ armorsaves for all tanks isn't unwelcome.
I think Salamanders looks very good universally, and Crimsfists looks a little niche but also fairly good.
You forgot there were three parts to that Tactic. Iron Hands are easily going to be better than Salamanders.
Marines weren't dying that much to AP-1 before anyway.
The Valhalla or Mordian bonuses aren't good on their own, I don't know why they'd be good glued together since they don't build on each other or anything. Maybe something from Valhalla building with the 6+++, but that seems pretty edge case making a difference.
I think Salamanders will blow Iron Hands away. Re-rolling a to-hit and to wound is really good for Marine armor, almost certainly better than a 5+ overwatch and the Valhallan ability. The AP1 ignoring is basically pointless.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
It wasn't a good tactic the first time and it isn't a good ability now. The negating of AP-1 is actually a better ability but still less than appealing compared to a 6+++.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
You are forgetting that librarians and chaplains exist too, and that both will receive now mambo jumbos.
bort wrote: That Iron Hand one is tempting. With the change to the RG one, 6+++ compares pretty well. Really only thing I don’t like with it is that it can’t stack with a Venerable Dreadnought’s innate fnp (right?). Seems a little weird to me that a chapter like Iron Hands wouldn’t want to run Venerables.
Yeah, it doesn't work with the vehicles you'd think of. It does it for the wound chart vehicles - Rhino Chassis, LR Chassis, and Repulsor Chassis. They don't drop out of the top tier until they're at the bottom tier.
If I were a FOTM player, I'd be looking at MSU Razorback (or Intercessor Impulso depending on it's datasheet) spam IH to see if they just resurrected that one.
Iron Hands could also be the default choice for a Space Marine Air Force. They Flyer tiers aren't quite the same ratio, but only off by 1 wound
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wasn't there a rumor about the "-1 to hit rules if at more than 12" away" changing to "in cover if at more than 12" away" ? I guess we're finally seeing the early signs of that then.
Kind of wish they would have done that in an Errata instead of new codices. There's a lot of armies that have that gimmick.
It's much the same now. A lot of times a +1 armor is equal to a -1 to hit. Sometimes it's better.
Do it 4+'s across the board for easy math. 4 to hit, 4 to wound, 4 to save
Baseline 4+'s. 10 shots, 5 hit, 2.5 wound. 1.25 save.
-1 to hit : 10 shots 4 hit, 2 wound 1 save
+1 to Save 10 shots 5 hit 2.5 wound 1.67 save
The 2+ Save isn't going to be very impressed though, sorry Termies.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
I dont understand not moving your capt/lt with the troops. I mean, I get why camping is a thing and use it sometimes but not going in planning on doing it.
I like the Fists buff. Extra hits on 6s with bolters syncs really nicely with their specialist Dakka Centurions and 10-man vet intercessor squads, which were already the two best units for IF in my opinion.
Ishagu wrote: 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
400 points less and more durable.
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
How is rerolling one miss almost identical to rerolling all misses and all failed wounds?
I get that you'll often not get more than 1 miss anyway (out of 4 hit rolls for a quad las Predator), so on the hit roll it is not far off Guilliman (though it is still a bit behind). But not getting the re-roll wounds is massive, it's a huge part of Guilliman's value.
I might be missing something here, so please share your maths.
I think it's per unit.. 3 Predators are 3 units. So all three Pred's get to reroll a single miss, and a single whiff (failed wound) per turn. BS 3+ with four shots (Two LC sponsons, and TLLC Turret) is only going to average less than a miss and less than a whiff per turn. It's not exact. Between dice having no memory (i.e. you will eventually miss/whiff twice on one unit in one turn and Guilliman still covers the all 1's roll) and diminishing stats on the wound chart, it will eventually work out in Guilliman's favor, but it's going to take a long long statistical time.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
I dont understand not moving your capt/lt with the troops. I mean, I get why camping is a thing and use it sometimes but not going in planning on doing it.
how many captains and Lts does a list on average have? how many infantry squads do you have? having the freedom to move that tac squad with a lascanon elsewhere without losing a re-roll on the lascanon is a handy bit of tactical flexability. not nesscarily god tier no but it's certainly got uses
McGibs wrote: Salamanders can also reroll one failed wound per unit.
Ah, apologies.
However it is still a fair bit behind Guilliman when you factor in the chance of two or more failed hit rolls and two or more failed wound rolls.
Maybe not 400 points difference, but it would be dishonest to say the damage throughput would be very close.
No, he's right, it would be. You're talking four shots per turn on a BS of 3. 1/3 of shots miss, and you have four shots - you''re missing one and a third shots per turn, reroll the one miss, you're missing a half a shot per turn after reroll(s) from the Chapter Tactic. They also have the any whiff not 1 to whiff from Guilliman/Lieutenant, on a Lascannon likely to also be wounding on 3+. So you're missing on half a shot per turn, and whiffing on half of 3.5 shots per turn. That's basically the same thing Guilliman does (statistically) because the unit isn't getting much more in the miss/whiff column than it already has rerolls for. The rate Guilliman is going to pull away from this Chapter tactic is the rate at which you're going to roll more than one miss And statistically that's pretty rare. Guilliman DOES come out on top, but it take a LONG time to get there. Turn 7 isn't even in the same galaxy as getting there.
Crazyterran wrote: Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(
Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!
I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.
but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.
Unless Ultramarines real strength is in their stratagems, and in raking in the CP to power them like candy on Halloween, that's not going to help much.
Ishagu wrote: 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
400 points less and more durable.
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
How is rerolling one miss almost identical to rerolling all misses and all failed wounds?
I get that you'll often not get more than 1 miss anyway (out of 4 hit rolls for a quad las Predator), so on the hit roll it is not far off Guilliman (though it is still a bit behind). But not getting the re-roll wounds is massive, it's a huge part of Guilliman's value.
I might be missing something here, so please share your maths.
I think it's per unit.. 3 Predators are 3 units. So all three Pred's get to reroll a single miss, and a single whiff (failed wound) per turn. BS 3+ with four shots (Two LC sponsons, and TLLC Turret) is only going to average less than a miss and less than a whiff per turn. It's not exact. Between dice having no memory (i.e. you will eventually miss/whiff twice on one unit in one turn and Guilliman still covers the all 1's roll) and diminishing stats on the wound chart, it will eventually work out in Guilliman's favor, but it's going to take a long long statistical time.
Just based on the hit roll, Salamanders is a 20% damage increase (for a unit with 4 shots like a lad Pred), Guilliman is 33%.
Now that might seem small for 400 points but there's several other factors you need to bare in mind:
1.
The more shots a unit has, the further ahead Guilliman pulls. If you do it for a Dakka Repulsor the difference is MASSIVE. A lad Pred is basically best case scenario.
2.
This is exponentially compounded when you also take into account wounding. It gets a fair bit more complex to calculate if you want to do average damage increase factoring in a single re-roll for both hits and wounds, but that difference on the hit roll is compounded when you add in the wound roll.
3.
The worse your chance of wounding the better Guilliman is (because you're getting more use of all the rerolls). So a las Pred again is likely wounding its intended target on 3s, but if you are attacking with something that requires a wound roll of 4s or 5s then again Guilliman just gets better.
So yeah, all in all Guilliman is quite a bit superior to Salamanders traits. In the ideal situation, Salamanders provide about half the buff Guilliman does. But Guilliman pull ahead quite substantially in less ideal situations for Salamanders.
Is it worth 400pts? Jury is still out. But there is a big difference.
QUESTION: Do raven guard have -1 from 12 inch away or you just need to be on terrain.
IF RG is -1 to hit only when on terrain it can be really good for assault units.
well no if you take Gulliman for a warlord trait you're an idiot. (considering you can get the warlord trait for a 100 point captain instead) Gulliman's problem is he offers a LOT to an army but not all at once, he offers amazing support to a gunline yes, but he's ALSO a melee powerhouse. etc. part of me wonders if, especially in light of shock assault he might be better off rushing up the board with a selection of space marine units that are geared for melee.
Almost nobody is better suited to run up the board for melee. They're still correcting from removing Charge/Two Weapon/etc bonuses to melee. I don't know what the ratio of CCW rounds a melee unit should be able to get in vs the number of rounds a shooting unit should be able to shoot in - But I think we can all agree that generally speaking the shooting unit gets to shoot a lot more than a fighting unit gets to fight. That's why they had so many +1A bonuses. To make up for the turns the fighting units had to stand around picking their noses between fights.
I'm liking the new Raven Guard tactics. From an opponent's perspective that is. I just wish that they FAQ the same wording to all -1 blanket hit modifier factions SOON. I'm looking at you Alaitoc Eldar...
Now Gman with a choice of Warlord traits might be worth the terrible chapter tactic.
Gman with ALL the Warlord traits would probably be over the top. But imagine if Gman got two, this one, and a Choose one. Primarchs are supposed to be superhuman at all things, and unsurpassed in their own specialty. It makes sense each Primarch would have a Trait they're defined for being predelicted to, and be able to choose another one they're consciously focusing on.
Weazel wrote: I'm liking the new Raven Guard tactics. From an opponent's perspective that is. I just wish that they FAQ the same wording to all -1 blanket hit modifier factions SOON. I'm looking at you Alaitoc Eldar...
Probably not, they will need to release new CWE codex for that.
Ishagu wrote: As of right now the Ultramarines have by far the worst chapter tactic, and it actively nerfs some of the units in the book. Terrible.
Nothing wrong with it, if you know how to use your units. Of course, if you are an inexperienced and naive player that doesn't know how to properly utilise it, you might think it is worthless.
Am I doing this right?
Almost - you forgot to add how much time you spend playing the top tier tournaments.
Marin wrote: QUESTION: Do raven guard have -1 from 12 inch away or you just need to be on terrain.
IF RG is -1 to hit only when on terrain it can be really good for assault units.
only when on terrain, so when you dig in, into cover on ravenguard you've got +2 to your armor bonus and a -1 to hit you. shooting ravenguard intercessors out of a ruin is going to be a pain in the ass.
I still find it hillarious that Chaos just got an update, that could've easily allready got that at the same time as the regular marines.
Albeit i am sure GW will release a book called Legions of chaos, a supplement, with all the updated stuff in it, after you allready probably have bought Codex 2.0....
I think the part that irks me is the unique Ork rule being handed out to marines.
I see the problem. You thought it was a unique ork rule. Very few rules are truly unique. GW recycles more than the Sierra Club. They give them all unique names, but very few rules, or parts of rules, can't be found in someone else's book too.
Marin wrote: QUESTION: Do raven guard have -1 from 12 inch away or you just need to be on terrain.
IF RG is -1 to hit only when on terrain it can be really good for assault units.
only when on terrain, so when you dig in, into cover on ravenguard you've got +2 to your armor bonus and a -1 to hit you. shooting ravenguard intercessors out of a ruin is going to be a pain in the ass.
I don`t think you can get bonus from cover 2 times, so it should be +1 save from 12 inches away and in cover +1 like every1 else.
My question is do you get -1 to hit when you are less than 12 inches away.
I'd have liked to see something like this:
Captain/Chapter Master gives his reroll to entire table. Captains are limited to 1 per detachment. No more 3 smash captains leading 15 scouts, but you also don't wish you had 2-3 for aura coverage.
Lieutenants could either be 6" or 12" aura. Reasoning could be like they all have the communication gear sure, but the Lieutenants aren't as experienced at reading the distant battlefield as the Captain and so can only improve close by combatants.
Guilliman could either be changed to reroll all hits and only reroll 1s to wound granted across the whole table or keep the 6" size bubble for the reroll all wounds.
Chaplains stay 6", but changed to not overlap buffs with Captains.
I've always thought Chapter Masters should give Reroll all misses
Chaplains Reroll all whiffs (failed wounds)
Kids always behave better when Mom AND Dad are around.
Captain 1 to hits,
Lt's 1 to wounds.
Instead of picking between 6" or table wide, I'd figure out what the average table size is (4x6? 4x8?) and make the bubble - whatever the bubble is - big enough to cover about a quarter of it.
Marin wrote: QUESTION: Do raven guard have -1 from 12 inch away or you just need to be on terrain.
IF RG is -1 to hit only when on terrain it can be really good for assault units.
only when on terrain, so when you dig in, into cover on ravenguard you've got +2 to your armor bonus and a -1 to hit you. shooting ravenguard intercessors out of a ruin is going to be a pain in the ass.
I don`t think you can get bonus from cover 2 times, so it should be +1 save from 12 inches away and in cover +1 like every1 else.
My question is do you get -1 to hit when you are less than 12 inches away.
you're proably right. eaither way it;'s a pretty solid rule
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders.
Valhallans and Mordians don't have Razorbacks. That was my first reaction - MSU Razorback spam could be a thing again. Screen the tanks with the Marines to keep them CC free, the Razorback will stay in the top tier wound bracket until it's almost dead anyway.
I don`t think you can get bonus from cover 2 times, so it should be +1 save from 12 inches away and in cover +1 like every1 else.
My question is do you get -1 to hit when you are less than 12 inches away.
you're proably right. eaither way it;'s a pretty solid rule
No, I think you can't get the cover bonus twice, but you can modify the cover bonus - i.e. Camo Cloaks.
That doesn't apply here though - the rule checks multiple conditions so roughly and taking some generality liberties -
If:
opponent shooting:
12"+ away
Then:
If Not in Cover - In Cover
Else:
IF Vehicle - In Cover
If NOT Vehicle, -1 to hit.
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders.
Valhallans and Mordians don't have Razorbacks. That was my first reaction - MSU Razorback spam could be a thing again. Screen the tanks with the Marines to keep them CC free, the Razorback will stay in the top tier wound bracket until it's almost dead anyway.
I don`t think you can get bonus from cover 2 times, so it should be +1 save from 12 inches away and in cover +1 like every1 else.
My question is do you get -1 to hit when you are less than 12 inches away.
you're proably right. eaither way it;'s a pretty solid rule
No, I think you can't get the cover bonus twice, but you can modify the cover bonus - i.e. Camo Cloaks.
That doesn't apply here though - the rule checks multiple conditions so roughly and taking some generality liberties -
If:
opponent shooting:
12"+ away
Then:
If Not in Cover - In Cover
Else:
IF Vehicle - In Cover
If NOT Vehicle, -1 to hit.
Yea you are probably right, i just wished that you get -1 without the 12 inch restriction.
Even so +1 save is better for SM vs no AP weapons and getting +1 save for vehicles is a buff.
White Scars will reliably achieve turn 1 charges, and are very tactically flexible. All Flying units will be leaving combat, shooting and then charging again to get the extra attack. People are underestimating how good this will be.
Iron Hands are very powerful, hard to decide between them and Salamanders. Less profile degradation means vehicles won't hit the bottom until they are on two wounds or less in almost every case. Nice FNP which over the course of a game will help many units. The Tau-like Overwatch means that Dakka platforms like Repulsors, Redemptors or larger infantry squads become much more dangerous to charge.
Salamanders gain a fantastic level of durability as Ap-1 weapons are so common across armies. They also get a very high level of efficiency on units that makes certain weapons - basically anything with high power and low volume - as efficient as if it was boosted by multiple characters or Guilliman for free, and without having to bubble around. I feel this might become the most popular chapter tactic as it's instantly very useful in every situation.
Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and BT are all much better too. Raven Guard have very durable vehicles thanks to the cover bonus and can still obtain a - 1 on key units in cover. It's overall probably as good as it was before.
As I said earlier, as it stands the Ultras have the worst chapter tactic as many new units that benefit only do so slightly. You might think that a Predator running from combat and shooting is great, however if the profile is degraded it will be hitting on a Six, or of it touches the lowest bracket it won't be able to shoot at all as the BS will be reduced to 7+
In fact, the +1 leadership is actually the more beneficial part of the Chapter Tactic over the average game.
White Scars will reliably achieve turn 1 charges, and are very tactically flexible. All Flying units will be leaving combat, shooting and then charging again to get the extra attack. People are underestimating how good this will be.
OR you just ask any CSM player with a degree of competency.
just kinda funny that the whole hyper aggressive schtick that chaos had going now get's handed out for free* to regular SM.
in fairness ALL Marines need to be given rules that enchourages an agressive push forward and get in your face mentaluity (hence the shock assault rule) and some loyalists are as agressive about pushing up fast into melee as chaos are (space wolves and caracadorns come to mind immediatly)
Deep strike melee is pretty reliable with the changes. Could see some throw away 5 man assult squads with a thunder hammer being usefull for deeping in and distrupting. I would not tool up proper death stars for it since the chance of failure is still ~30-40%
I dont use crusader squads much but i suppose the 1A power sword or fist becomes less laughable now.
Also emperors champion will be even better with 1 more attack.
The mortal wound defend is great buff but nothing you can build any new tactics around.
I think it's worth saying that a very reliable source I know (obviously can't say who) has told me that there are some stupid powerful stratagems for the UM in the supplement, so don't count them out the running just yet. Although all Marines are getting a bunch of new and powerful stratagems per supplement, as well as new relics and psychic powers so it won't just be UM benefitting.
(Yes I know an unverified source is worth nothing but you'll see in two weeks time, I'm just saying don't impulse sell your UM army on ebay)
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: I think it's worth saying that a very reliable source I know (obviously can't say who) has told me that there are some stupid powerful stratagems for the UM in the supplement, so don't count them out the running just yet. Although all Marines are getting 16 stratagems per supplement, as well as new relics and a psychic discipline so it won't just be UM benefitting.
(Yes I know an unverified source is worth nothing but you'll see in two weeks time, I'm just saying don't impulse sell your UM army on ebay)
wou;dn't suprise me, as I said, if I was designing he ultramarines I'd make them a very stratagium focused chapter
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: I think it's worth saying that a very reliable source I know (obviously can't say who) has told me that there are some stupid powerful stratagems for the UM in the supplement, so don't count them out the running just yet. Although all Marines are getting 16 stratagems per supplement, as well as new relics and a psychic discipline so it won't just be UM benefitting.
(Yes I know an unverified source is worth nothing but you'll see in two weeks time, I'm just saying don't impulse sell your UM army on ebay)
wou;dn't suprise me, as I said, if I was designing he ultramarines I'd make them a very stratagium focused chapter
Wonder what they'll do with the Imperial Fists one, since it'll include CF and Templars too. Hopefully they get a good number of strats each.
Spoletta wrote: Do you think that with shock assault the GK strike squads became finally worthy of a transport?
Which Transport? I think one of the problems with an assault unit in a transport is they can't leave the transport until the beginning of the movement phase. At least, not voluntarily. It would have been nicer if they would have kept it as you can embark/disembark before or after moving, but you can't do both. So you're losing a lot of time with an assault unit. At least a shooting unit can hop out and shoot and most units can't run away while you wait a turn to disembark.
I guess that's a long way of saying, if your Strike Squad was worth transporting before it still is now, if it wasn't before it probably still isn't.
My second biggest army is Iron hands. they hav enot seen a lot of play since the ork codex drop. I am pretty excited for the new codex though and last night pulled em out of the case for touchup paint and repairs to models as needed. I also never based them properly so mayeb if I do start using them more I will get inspired to do the snow themed bases I have been meaning to do for ages.
Its funny that so many here are either loving or hating the new traits, yet no one is really winning games with traits, its always the strats that are making/breaking armies. (With exception of Alaitoc flyers).
Most of the traits are small buffs, but the army won't be fully assessed until we see the strats.
Not Online!!! wrote: I still find it hillarious that Chaos just got an update, that could've easily allready got that at the same time as the regular marines.
Albeit i am sure GW will release a book called Legions of chaos, a supplement, with all the updated stuff in it, after you allready probably have bought Codex 2.0....
Feth me.
Read the entire article, chicken little.
BA/DA/SW and CSM will get the following in downloadable PDFs: Their own enhanced Chapter/Legion tactics and the Shock Assault ability.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
I dont understand not moving your capt/lt with the troops. I mean, I get why camping is a thing and use it sometimes but not going in planning on doing it.
how many captains and Lts does a list on average have? how many infantry squads do you have? having the freedom to move that tac squad with a lascanon elsewhere without losing a re-roll on the lascanon is a handy bit of tactical flexability. not nesscarily god tier no but it's certainly got uses
...which they could already do.
So if it wasn't good then, why is it suddenly good now with a worse defensive bonus compared to Iron Hands and Raven Guard?
Not Online!!! wrote: I still find it hillarious that Chaos just got an update, that could've easily allready got that at the same time as the regular marines.
Albeit i am sure GW will release a book called Legions of chaos, a supplement, with all the updated stuff in it, after you allready probably have bought Codex 2.0....
Feth me.
Read the entire article, chicken little.
BA/DA/SW and CSM will get the following in downloadable PDFs: Their own enhanced Chapter/Legion tactics and the Shock Assault ability.
All is well citizen, return to sleep.
And you lack basic reading comprehension so what?
I stated they could have released it at the same time or propperly in dex 2.0
I also stated they will release another book to nickle and dime us.
And you lack basic reading comprehension so what?
I stated they could have released it at the same time or propperly in dex 2.0
I also stated they will release another book to nickle and dime us.
Got it, you're determined to be indignant, sorry to try to dampen your righteous outrage, continue screaming at your monitor.
It would be nice if things coming out of a drop pod could deploy within 8"
My fix, give the drop pod the rule:
Friendly units within 6" add 1 to their charge rolls and do not count as having moved for the purposes of shooting with Heavy Weapons.
Or something along those lines. Important it's an aura, and that it helps the deployed unit get into combat. It's important it's an aura so the drop pod stays relevant after it lands, and makes your opponent have to consider whether it might be worth using resources to destroy it.
The easiest solution for Drop pods is to give them an Infiltrate deployment option (like Scouts) in addition to a deep strike option. That way you can use them to "drop" in units on Turn 1 even in Matched play
As a salamander player I'm very happy with what I've seen so far. Outside of power armour is -1ap that common? I know things like heavy bolters, bolt rifles and assault cannons are pretty common in marine armies but how about xenos/chaos?
From my perspective as a craftworlds player I don't think we have much in the way of -1ap damage weapons.
kingheff wrote: As a salamander player I'm very happy with what I've seen so far. Outside of power armour is -1ap that common? I know things like heavy bolters, bolt rifles and assault cannons are pretty common in marine armies but how about xenos/chaos?
From my perspective as a craftworlds player I don't think we have much in the way of -1ap damage weapons.
Yeah, Eldar/DE pretty much go from AP-0 straight to AP-2+. I can't really think of any commonly used Ap-1 weapons there.
Necron Warriors have Ap-1 weapons, so there's that.
But in general, I thing the most AP-1 weapons are indeed Marines
Drop pods could be useful if they allowed you to deepstrike up to 3" from enemy units and it's cost considerably reduced to 35pts. Basically a drop pods should be adding a danger close deepstrike option.
kingheff wrote: As a salamander player I'm very happy with what I've seen so far. Outside of power armour is -1ap that common? I know things like heavy bolters, bolt rifles and assault cannons are pretty common in marine armies but how about xenos/chaos?
From my perspective as a craftworlds player I don't think we have much in the way of -1ap damage weapons.
Yeah, Eldar/DE pretty much go from AP-0 straight to AP-2+. I can't really think of any commonly used Ap-1 weapons there.
Necron Warriors have Ap-1 weapons, so there's that.
But in general, I thing the most AP-1 weapons are indeed Marines
bullyboy wrote: Its funny that so many here are either loving or hating the new traits, yet no one is really winning games with traits, its always the strats that are making/breaking armies. (With exception of Alaitoc flyers).
Most of the traits are small buffs, but the army won't be fully assessed until we see the strats.
All of the traits are great except ultra marines since they now apply to vehicals.White scars is kinda meh but it's really good on a lot of units that just got a big buff for +1 attack on the charge. It could be amazing. Ultras by comparison basically get nothing out of this. It is kind of a travesty. Just because Ultras were the best choice in 8th ed marines codex they were still one of the worst armies in the entire game. They should not be getting shafted like this. Also I disagree - free stats do win games.
bullyboy wrote: Its funny that so many here are either loving or hating the new traits, yet no one is really winning games with traits, its always the strats that are making/breaking armies. (With exception of Alaitoc flyers).
Most of the traits are small buffs, but the army won't be fully assessed until we see the strats.
All of the traits are great except ultra marines since they now apply to vehicals.White scars is kinda meh but it's really good on a lot of units that just got a big buff for +1 attack on the charge. It could be amazing. Ultras by comparison basically get nothing out of this. It is kind of a travesty. Just because Ultras were the best choice in 8th ed marines codex they were still one of the worst armies in the entire game. They should not be getting shafted like this. Also I disagree - free stats do win games.
I think we need to hold judgement. Falling back and shooting with your vehicle is decent and UMs will undoubtedly get some of the best stratagems. They also have Bobby-G, so there will still be plenty of reason to take them.
On reflection the Raven Guard trait changes don't really effect me at all. We always play CoD rules locally so my RGs were already constantly hugging cover (stacking up to -2 to be hit was too good to pass up) so nothing about how they deploy or advance changes at all.
Being able to look at Iron Hands or Imperial Fist without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot for doing it is nice though.
Galef wrote: I think we need to hold judgement. Falling back and shooting with your vehicle is decent and UMs will undoubtedly get some of the best stratagems. They also have Bobby-G, so there will still be plenty of reason to take them.
I agree, another part of the equation that's missing is the indication that Chaplains will be getting prayers. If it ends up working in a similar manner to Dark Apostles that will be a fairly significant paradigm shift (I know it was significant to my CSM lists at least). Assuming they get some reasonable facsimile of Benediction of Darkness and/or Warpsight Plea, I think the calculus changes a bit.
Galef wrote: I think we need to hold judgement. Falling back and shooting with your vehicle is decent and UMs will undoubtedly get some of the best stratagems. They also have Bobby-G, so there will still be plenty of reason to take them.
I agree, another part of the equation that's missing is the indication that Chaplains will be getting prayers. If it ends up working in a similar manner to Dark Apostles that will be a fairly significant paradigm shift (I know it was significant to my CSM lists at least). Assuming they get some reasonable facsimile of Benediction of Darkness and/or Warpsight Plea, I think the calculus changes a bit.
It’s mentioned in the WarCom article that chaplains are getting an additional force multiplier. The Dark apostle analogy is the natural first inference.
buddha wrote: Drop pods could be useful if they allowed you to deepstrike up to 3" from enemy units and it's cost considerably reduced to 35pts. Basically a drop pods should be adding a danger close deepstrike option.
Non of this really implies danger though.
its just a bonus stacked on another bonus.
should cost MORE to get danger close. (it should be expensive to consistently get guys super close to the enemy. just like the skaven in aos. and they end up hurting them selves to get in close range for tons of mortal wound flamers)
or risk getting hamburger-ed when walking out. since you are popping out of a funnel.
also most people will just run flamers out the wazoo for easy immolation's.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s mentioned in the WarCom article that chaplains are getting an additional force multiplier. The Dark apostle analogy is the natural first inference.
I believe in the initial reveal in the section they talk about data cards the say there's X faith cards
buddha wrote: Drop pods could be useful if they allowed you to deepstrike up to 3" from enemy units and it's cost considerably reduced to 35pts. Basically a drop pods should be adding a danger close deepstrike option.
Non of this really implies danger though.
its just a bonus stacked on another bonus.
should cost MORE to get danger close. (it should be expensive to consistently get guys super close to the enemy. just like the skaven in aos. and they end up hurting them selves to get in close range for tons of mortal wound flamers)
or risk getting hamburger-ed when walking out. since you are popping out of a funnel.
also most people will just run flamers out the wazoo for easy immolation's.
Danger Close means too close to friendly units, so it's even more not-quite-the-right-word.
I think a Pod permitting Deep Strikes up close to the enemy would be a fine enough quality for it to have at it's current cost, but not at 35 points.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s mentioned in the WarCom article that chaplains are getting an additional force multiplier. The Dark apostle analogy is the natural first inference.
I believe in the initial reveal in the section they talk about data cards the say there's X faith cards
Yes, there are 7 "Litanies of battle"
Got a link? Searching for WarCom seems to just give me US Army sites and some brake manufacturer.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Successor Tactics are completely broken...you can mix and match rules of existing Chapters or even new ones
Considering Marines are "subpar", giving them an edge should be fine. We'll see the best combo. Me, playing a DIY chapter, I'm happy.
Sure, wanna fight a Marine model with +1 to Armour saves and 6+++ freely given by a chapter? Go for it!
I wonder how many people will pick the ultramarine traits for their custom chapters. I mean...it's so good. It's bound to show up all the time. I like the custom chapter stuff though. Sounds cool.
Danger Close means too close to friendly units, so it's even more not-quite-the-right-word.
I think a Pod permitting Deep Strikes up close to the enemy would be a fine enough quality for it to have at it's current cost, but not at 35 points.
at 35 points im having 7th flashbacks. i mean honestly though the drop pod does have problems but 35 points..
since 5th edition drop pods had 3 editions of costing to little for what they do (5th, 6th, and 7th). I am all for buffing them, but yea 3" and 35 points would mean tables full of them again with armies that do not have them having to completely rethink tactics around one vehicle.
at 35 points i would say 6" and they cannot disembark the turn they come on liek most vehicle the drop counts as the movement, they drop at the end of the movement, they deploy closer than most and then they still get to disembark, move, shoot and charge the next turn. but then there is the risk of casualties in explosions.
The Newman wrote: Mix "reroll one miss and one failed to wound" with "reroll 1s to hit on bolter weapons". Captains? Never heard of 'em.
Rather pointless though - you don't really need the reroll 1's if you've got Master Artisans, and you have to fill up HQ slots anyway. Ignoring AP-1 is WAY better, not to speak of any other possible combination.
As a Salamander it's actually kinda hard to justify having a backfield captain and/or Lt now that our tanks also get to benefit from MA
bullyboy wrote: Its funny that so many here are either loving or hating the new traits, yet no one is really winning games with traits, its always the strats that are making/breaking armies. (With exception of Alaitoc flyers).
Most of the traits are small buffs, but the army won't be fully assessed until we see the strats.
Having better traits certainly isn't going to help people lose, so....
Galef wrote: I think we need to hold judgement. Falling back and shooting with your vehicle is decent and UMs will undoubtedly get some of the best stratagems. They also have Bobby-G, so there will still be plenty of reason to take them.
I agree, another part of the equation that's missing is the indication that Chaplains will be getting prayers. If it ends up working in a similar manner to Dark Apostles that will be a fairly significant paradigm shift (I know it was significant to my CSM lists at least). Assuming they get some reasonable facsimile of Benediction of Darkness and/or Warpsight Plea, I think the calculus changes a bit.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Successor Tactics are completely broken...you can mix and match rules of existing Chapters or even new ones
Considering Marines are "subpar", giving them an edge should be fine. We'll see the best combo. Me, playing a DIY chapter, I'm happy.
Sure, wanna fight a Marine model with +1 to Armour saves and 6+++ freely given by a chapter? Go for it!
That's not how it works - at least as I read it. There are restrictions based on founding chapters. If you go outside founding chapters you'll have a different set to use it seems.
The biggest threat is the successors being just better combinations that normal chapters, but that isn't likely or a really big deal.
bullyboy wrote: Its funny that so many here are either loving or hating the new traits, yet no one is really winning games with traits, its always the strats that are making/breaking armies. (With exception of Alaitoc flyers).
Most of the traits are small buffs, but the army won't be fully assessed until we see the strats.
Having better traits certainly isn't going to help people lose, so....
Galef wrote: I think we need to hold judgement. Falling back and shooting with your vehicle is decent and UMs will undoubtedly get some of the best stratagems. They also have Bobby-G, so there will still be plenty of reason to take them.
I agree, another part of the equation that's missing is the indication that Chaplains will be getting prayers. If it ends up working in a similar manner to Dark Apostles that will be a fairly significant paradigm shift (I know it was significant to my CSM lists at least). Assuming they get some reasonable facsimile of Benediction of Darkness and/or Warpsight Plea, I think the calculus changes a bit.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Successor Tactics are completely broken...you can mix and match rules of existing Chapters or even new ones
Considering Marines are "subpar", giving them an edge should be fine. We'll see the best combo. Me, playing a DIY chapter, I'm happy.
Sure, wanna fight a Marine model with +1 to Armour saves and 6+++ freely given by a chapter? Go for it!
That's not how it works - at least as I read it. There are restrictions based on founding chapters. If you go outside founding chapters you'll have a different set to use it seems.
The biggest threat is the successors being just better combinations that normal chapters, but that isn't likely or a really big deal.
You read it wrong, check it again and see that many of the 8 chapters "tactics" are included in the successor ones
Danger Close means too close to friendly units, so it's even more not-quite-the-right-word.
I think a Pod permitting Deep Strikes up close to the enemy would be a fine enough quality for it to have at it's current cost, but not at 35 points.
at 35 points im having 7th flashbacks. i mean honestly though the drop pod does have problems but 35 points..
You can deep strike units for a CP in this game. The ability to deepstrike is worth between 10-20 points at max.
You can deep strike a unit for a CP in this game, for some factions. Or two for 3 CP. But you can't DS multiple units at 1CP each.
That is a good point. Drop pods should ether mirror those abiltiies and the model just be a prop. Or call it a fast attack option(you could even say it doesn't fill up a slot) for 35 ish points - cause its a storm bolter with 8 wounds for like 15 points plus the ability to deep strike. Plus limited by rule of 3.
KurtAngle2 wrote: You read it wrong, check it again and see that many of the 8 chapters "tactics" are included in the successor ones
Pretty sure he didn't, if you choose one of the First Founding Chapter tactics, you may not select a second, which leaves you with (does the new math)...one.
Then there's a separate set of tactics, you get to choose two of those, of which they provide a couple examples.
It looks like they'll be able to get one aspect of the founding chapter, not all of them to mix and match is the point.
Danger Close means too close to friendly units, so it's even more not-quite-the-right-word.
I think a Pod permitting Deep Strikes up close to the enemy would be a fine enough quality for it to have at it's current cost, but not at 35 points.
at 35 points im having 7th flashbacks. i mean honestly though the drop pod does have problems but 35 points..
You can deep strike units for a CP in this game. The ability to deepstrike is worth between 10-20 points at max.
You can deep strike a unit for a CP in this game, for some factions. Or two for 3 CP. But you can't DS multiple units at 1CP each.
That is a good point. Drop pods should ether mirror those abiltiies and the model just be a prop. Or call it a fast attack option(you could even say it doesn't fill up a slot) for 35 ish points - cause its a storm bolter with 8 wounds for like 15 points plus the ability to deep strike. Plus limited by rule of 3.
Drop Pod should have been like a 1CP stratagem that lets a unit deep strike.
However, there's a model for a unit so it's got to have rules and points costs. ~35 would be fine for bonus-free deep strike [which, to be fair, it seems like it's costed towards right now as the cost of a rhino +3 points per passenger getting deep strike], and maybe ~50 considering it drops a large LoS blocker, movement inhibitor, and storm bolter to go with it. That said, I think a ~100 point cost and close-range deep strike would probably be a better incarnation, because it is after all a unit, not a strategm, and it should do something beyond a strategem.
KurtAngle2 wrote: You read it wrong, check it again and see that many of the 8 chapters "tactics" are included in the successor ones
Pretty sure he didn't, if you choose one of the First Founding Chapter tactics, you may not select a second, which leaves you with (does the new math)...one.
Then there's a separate set of tactics, you get to choose two of those, of which they provide a couple examples.
It looks like they'll be able to get one aspect of the founding chapter, not all of them to mix and match is the point.
These examples are PRETTY good too.
+3 range to ranged weapons is pretty sweet. Really good for bolter discipline intercessors. Really good for agressors too. 21" double taps now. WOW. Also great for repulsors! This is gonna be a fan favorite I am sure.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s mentioned in the WarCom article that chaplains are getting an additional force multiplier. The Dark apostle analogy is the natural first inference.
I believe in the initial reveal in the section they talk about data cards the say there's X faith cards
Yes, there are 7 "Litanies of battle"
Got a link? Searching for WarCom seems to just give me US Army sites and some brake manufacturer.
124 cards for easy reference during a game, divided into three sets:
Set 1 – 49 cards (36 Tactical Objectives, 13 psychic powers)
Set 2 – 48 cards (38 Stratagems, 3 Combat Doctrines, 7 Litanies of Battle)
Set 3 – 27 Chapter Tactics (8 Chapter Tactics, 19 Successor Tactics)
Why do I get the feeling the excerpt If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update! means the said chapters will only get the Shock Assault rules updated and no enhanced chapter tactics yet...
skchsan wrote: Why do I get the feeling the excerpt If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update! means the said chapters will only get the Shock Assault rules updated and no enhanced chapter tactics yet...
Probably. But now I can proxy BA as marine units easily.
Slightly on a side note - anyone notice how small the White Scar pictured on the supplement's eyes are? The eyes are almost implied, and not explicitly drawn out. That't not racist at all.
Amid all the excitement (and as a Vanilla Marine player I'm really excited), someone should take a step back and point out that between all of this, CMS v2, traitor knights, and SoB on the horizon, GW is going to have a riot on their hands if 2020 isn't 'The Year of the Xenos'.
skchsan wrote: Slightly on a side note - anyone notice how small the White Scar pictured on the supplement's eyes are? The eyes are almost implied, and not explicitly drawn out. That't not racist at all.
Not that much smaller than the Ultramarines eyes. God forbid that they are based off of Mongolians who do actually have different shaped eyes than Caucasian people.
The Newman wrote: Amid all the excitement (and as a Vanilla Marine player I'm really excited), someone should take a step back and point out that between all of this, CMS v2, traitor knights, and SoB on the horizon, GW is going to have a riot on their hands if 2020 isn't 'The Year of the Xenos'.
So uh, Long Range Marksmen means you can get 12 inch flamers.
11", but still...good catch...
Aggressors, HO!
Even the bolter aggressors would be really good with an extra 3 inches, 21" in a weird range where most thing will have to move closer to do more damage to you but not in one turn, giving the agressors time to set up and agress over people's faces. Inceptors would get a similar advantage, although that would depend more on how close you want to get to if you want to use those melee stats/ability.
Weapons that are more useful at half range would also benefit. It wouldn't exactly set the world on fire for meltas, but having that extra inch and a half for plasma double tap can mean forcing board control from your enemies or causing a charge to fail. If the auto bolt rifle is buffed (safe to assume), combining that with Bolter Fusillades and the strat that lets you auto hit at half range means you can have a very mobile marine army while still keeping out of a gunline's full power range.
There's of course the obvious advantage of keeping out of other people's range at all with longer ranged weapons than them. It's a very small ability that can be combined with other things which can open up some good tactical play.
So uh, Long Range Marksmen means you can get 12 inch flamers.
11", but still...good catch...
Aggressors, HO!
Even the bolter aggressors would be really good with an extra 3 inches, 21" in a weird range where most thing will have to move closer to do more damage to you but not in one turn, giving the agressors time to set up and agress over people's faces. Inceptors would get a similar advantage, although that would depend more on how close you want to get to if you want to use those melee stats/ability.
Weapons that are more useful at half range would also benefit. It wouldn't exactly set the world on fire for meltas, but having that extra inch and a half for plasma double tap can mean forcing board control from your enemies or causing a charge to fail. If the auto bolt rifle is buffed (safe to assume), combining that with Bolter Fusillades and the strat that lets you auto hit at half range means you can have a very mobile marine army while still keeping out of a gunline's full power range.
There's of course the obvious advantage of keeping out of other people's range at all with longer ranged weapons than them. It's a very small ability that can be combined with other things which can open up some good tactical play.
Bonus range with a defensive buff of some kind will be really helpful for almost every marine unit. From the ones we have seen - Counts as in cover will be really good. 6+ FNP would be better I think but we will see.
The Newman wrote: Amid all the excitement (and as a Vanilla Marine player I'm really excited), someone should take a step back and point out that between all of this, CMS v2, traitor knights, and SoB on the horizon, GW is going to have a riot on their hands if 2020 isn't 'The Year of the Xenos'.
40k has always been about the Imperium. Not much really to riot about as obviously GW makes money off promoting the most important faction in the game, in terms of narrative, sales, IP and history.
The Newman wrote: Amid all the excitement (and as a Vanilla Marine player I'm really excited), someone should take a step back and point out that between all of this, CMS v2, traitor knights, and SoB on the horizon, GW is going to have a riot on their hands if 2020 isn't 'The Year of the Xenos'.
40k has always been about the Imperium. Not much really to riot about as obviously GW makes money off promoting the most important faction in the game, in terms of narrative, sales, IP and history.
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
What nerf though? Aren't you getting extra shots AND having all of the CT apply to your vehicles, too?
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.
It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.
The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.
Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.
It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.
Yeah it is a flat bummer compared to imperial fist IMO which is just flat better.
Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better
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I like this idea best. If generic characters end up being more customizable its isn't even an issue. Generally the special characters for marines are just so much better than generics. I like the +3 range tactic with always counter in cover. Makes a lot of units better.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
What nerf though? Aren't you getting extra shots AND having all of the CT apply to your vehicles, too?
Its very slightly a nerf for 3 man and Individual Models. But its a buff to 10 Man units as now they get the bonus vs Units with 5 models more than them rather than double.
Old is +1 to Hit vs Double or More
New is +1 to Hit vs 5 or More
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.
It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.
The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.
I was just thinking dakka dakka bolters is quite good and you still have the chance to hit on 2's.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.
It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.
The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.
Ah. Yeah, so there's a small part that's worse than before, but you're still getting extra hits and ALL your vehicles now have CT. Can't really call that a nerf to the chapter, honestly. As long as you're using a good amount of bolters you should be way better off now. And if you don't, why are you playing Crimson Fists?
Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better
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I've got a personal theory that the first founding chapters will be decent but slightly weaker then DIY chapters until you start to apply stuff from their supplements,
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
I fail to see how the Crimson Fist CT is a nerf. Previously, you got the +1 to hit when attacking units with double the amount of models than your own, and now is 5+ models than your own. With a ten man marine squad, that goes from +1 against 20 or more models, vs 15+. That's actually a buff. At five man squads, it's the same at 10 vs 10. Vehicles already counted as 5 models (well, dreadnoughts, since vehicles didn't have chapter tactics until now), so vehicles would still only get +1 against units 10 or more. It only becomes less at units smaller that five, and even then you're still talking about ir only become a major problem with characters (going from 2 to 6). And this while also getting bolter drill added in, and now applies to all vehicles rather than just dreadnought.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.
It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.
The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.
Ah. Yeah, so there's a small part that's worse than before, but you're still getting extra hits and ALL your vehicles now have CT. Can't really call that a nerf to the chapter, honestly. As long as you're using a good amount of bolters you should be way better off now. And if you don't, why are you playing Crimson Fists?
lol. I have very few units that DON'T have bolt weapons (a squad of Hellblasters and a squad of Lascannon Devs is all that comes to mind). But I would rather they just left the original tactic alone and added the bolt weapon rider like they did with the Imperial Fists. And very few vehicles will actually benefit from this tactic compared to Imperial Fists. Any vehicle with the new tactic requires an enemy squad of 10 or more to even function. Kill one model, and you no longer benefit.
And the other thing is, with the old tactic, the Crimson Fists tactic worked as the Crimson Fists became more outnumbered, which requires more losses to trigger now, as well as characters used to benefit much better.
Oh well, I guess I can wait for the Imperial Fists supplement and hope for the best. Maybe hope for Primaris Pedro Kantor.
Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better
-
I've got a personal theory that the first founding chapters will be decent but slightly weaker then DIY chapters until you start to apply stuff from their supplements,
Are we getting ultras and white scars right off the bat with the codex?
Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better
-
I've got a personal theory that the first founding chapters will be decent but slightly weaker then DIY chapters until you start to apply stuff from their supplements,
Are we getting ultras and white scars right off the bat with the codex?
Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better
-
I've got a personal theory that the first founding chapters will be decent but slightly weaker then DIY chapters until you start to apply stuff from their supplements,
Are we getting ultras and white scars right off the bat with the codex?
we are yes. I'm hoping to snag both of them, fluff bunny that I am
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.
It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.
The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.
Ah. Yeah, so there's a small part that's worse than before, but you're still getting extra hits and ALL your vehicles now have CT. Can't really call that a nerf to the chapter, honestly. As long as you're using a good amount of bolters you should be way better off now. And if you don't, why are you playing Crimson Fists?
Well
1) it doesn't really effect 5man groups but as they diminish the rate of return diminishes as well so straight bumber, you will need to make the best of your attack to make any real effect. and they generally can so not that big of a deal. especially with a hot alpha strike sternguard unit.
2) Vehicles having the CT is great and all but it only really effects an extremely small amount of vehicles and forget vehicle squads as you will never get the bonus. it really only effects dakka boats like the raven or lrc which is nice but not really that great. you dont really want to be burning all your anti tank into a 10 man squad of imperial guards. and not many people run 10 man terminator squads no?
3) bolters are cool and it will be nice in some cases but worthless in others. its kind of a wash.
4) why would you ever ask why some one plays a specific faction.
All in all its a nerf not horrably game breaking but it is a straight nerf.
3 man agressor squads bonus cuts off at 8 vs with 2x mod would of been 6, single HQ model would of been 2 but instead now is 6. no way around that.
So if they fixed stalker bolt rifles, I wonder if they changed auto bolt rifles. I hope they made it more of a choice. I'll admit I'm kinda thinking about taking a squad with stalkers now. Granted that's only for the veteran stratagem... Never mind I talked myself out of it, I'm just glad they're trying to fix stuff
fraser1191 wrote: So if they fixed stalker bolt rifles, I wonder if they changed auto bolt rifles. I hope they made it more of a choice. I'll admit I'm kinda thinking about taking a squad with stalkers now. Granted that's only for the veteran stratagem... Never mind I talked myself out of it, I'm just glad they're trying to fix stuff
I think even a simple "no hit penalty if you advance" would give them a bigger niche. You'd have to fix how Deathwatch Aggressors interact with their mixed squads though.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.
It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.
The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.
Ah. Yeah, so there's a small part that's worse than before, but you're still getting extra hits and ALL your vehicles now have CT. Can't really call that a nerf to the chapter, honestly. As long as you're using a good amount of bolters you should be way better off now. And if you don't, why are you playing Crimson Fists?
Well
1) it doesn't really effect 5man groups but as they diminish the rate of return diminishes as well so straight bumber, you will need to make the best of your attack to make any real effect. and they generally can so not that big of a deal. especially with a hot alpha strike sternguard unit.
2) Vehicles having the CT is great and all but it only really effects an extremely small amount of vehicles and forget vehicle squads as you will never get the bonus. it really only effects dakka boats like the raven or lrc which is nice but not really that great. you dont really want to be burning all your anti tank into a 10 man squad of imperial guards. and not many people run 10 man terminator squads no?
3) bolters are cool and it will be nice in some cases but worthless in others. its kind of a wash.
4) why would you ever ask why some one plays a specific faction.
All in all its a nerf not horrably game breaking but it is a straight nerf.
3 man agressor squads bonus cuts off at 8 vs with 2x mod would of been 6, single HQ model would of been 2 but instead now is 6. no way around that.
yeah, and a 10 man squad has its bonus start at 15 instead of 20 now. We get it, it's being calculated differently. In some situations that's a benefit, in others it's worse than before.
No gak that anti infantry vehicles are the ones that benefit from those CT. But it's strictly a buff to them!
A LRC can easily benefit from both tactics and be very effective at mowing down GEQs - it's not like will be much left after you fire one of the weapon systems a LRC has at any GEQ squad,especially not when it's hitting on 2s.
Your anti tank is not affected at all. You didn't outnumber any tank ever before, and now you don't either. When you run out of tanks to shoot, you're still benefitting from that bonus whenever you predator targets a squad of 10. It didn't, ever, before.
My remark on the army choice was referring to Crimson Fists being famous for bringing a ton of bolters. Just like white scars are using tons of bikes. WSCT is way worse when playing a White Scars gun line, so is the CF one when you don't bring bolters. I wasn't questioning anyone's choice of army, not sure why you'd think that.
Ah, so I have to play an unfluffy version of my army to attack units that hardly ever see play in order to benefit from half of my Chapter Tactic. Literally only one thing gained a bonus from this change and that is units that are 10+ models (Read: Unfluffy as gak for Crimson Fists). Literally every other unit was nerfed.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Ah, so I have to play an unfluffy version of my army to attack units that hardly ever see play in order to benefit from half of my Chapter Tactic. Literally only one thing gained a bonus from this change and that is units that are 10+ models (Read: Unfluffy as gak for Crimson Fists). Literally every other unit was nerfed.
Please explain to me how literally every other unit was nerfed.
I'd even settle for a few examples:
Land Raider Crusader
Dreadnoughts of any kind
Any other vehicle of your choice.
Any unit of currently 5 or more models is at least the same, if they have 6 or more models they're better of. If they have bolt weapons of any kind theyre better of even when there's just 5 guys.
"literally every other unit was nerfed", sure.
OH and your regular msu squad (probably the most common marine unit type) gains the CT bonus vs pretty much all of the meatshield type units, as most of them are 10 or more models, eg infantry squads. They're hardly "hardly ever played".
BrianDavion wrote:if they gave autobolt rifles a -1 AP they'd be a solid weapon choice worth taking.
I think so as well. Although, I feel Reiver Carbines still need something as well since a good portion of the time they are Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles already. Only the Reiver movement upgrades really change them (and yes, I know Reivers still have the heavy bolt pistol, shock grenades and Terror Troops but I don't Carbine loadout use those nearly as much).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
fraser1191 wrote: So if they fixed stalker bolt rifles, I wonder if they changed auto bolt rifles. I hope they made it more of a choice. I'll admit I'm kinda thinking about taking a squad with stalkers now. Granted that's only for the veteran stratagem... Never mind I talked myself out of it, I'm just glad they're trying to fix stuff
I think even a simple "no hit penalty if you advance" would give them a bigger niche. You'd have to fix how Deathwatch Aggressors interact with their mixed squads though.
This would also work. However, I think the no move penalty applied to Reiver Carbines would work out better since they have more movement tricks to make use of it.
Personally, I lean toward making Auto Bolt Rifles cost no extra points and increasing their range to 30". I know this is probably not an attractive option to most players, but I would appreciate the great threat area that is creates as I am trying to get those intercessors where I want them. I will be pretty happy with any kind of rules that make the Primaris small arms loadouts more of a judgement call that they are currently.
Also just realized something: captains, lieutenants, chaplains, and chapter champions already hit on 2+ in melee and the Captain and Techmarines hit on 2+ at range. Librarians and Ancient hit on 3s, but neither of them are going to want to be near a fight in the first place, and the librarian is a psychic and has smite as his main damage dealer, which is uneffected by BS anyway. Unless you're going out of your way to grab equipment with -1s baked in (power fists and eqv, combi-weapons and firing both profiles), it's a very minimal change for CF.
maybe let reivers upgrade their bolt pistols to hand flamers. it might give them an added close range punch and flamers are a pretty obvious idea for a terror weapon
BrianDavion wrote: maybe let reivers upgrade their bolt pistols to hand flamers. it might give them an added close range punch and flamers are a pretty obvious idea for a terror weapon
Naw, just give them Reiver Combat Knives (-1 AP) and increase the range of their shock grenades. Done and done. Also, give the Phobos Characters Reiver Combat Knives.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
Were you really only using characters and 3 model units?
No vehicles? No bigger units to maximize the detachment strats? Characters didn't even need it.
I'd say it's a nerf if you were playing a weird janky list, but for everyone else it's a buff. Bigger squads of Hellblasters for the strats, or even Veteran Intercessors aren't dropping the tactic and are actually an option now. Plus an extra hit for every bolt shot? All of this on vehicles?
Yeah, you're peddling some crazy bs if this is a "substantial nerf". It's way better now.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
Were you really only using characters and 3 model units?
No vehicles? No bigger units to maximize the detachment strats? Characters didn't even need it.
I'd say it's a nerf if you were playing a weird janky list, but for everyone else it's a buff. Bigger squads of Hellblasters for the strats, or even Veteran Intercessors aren't dropping the tactic and are actually an option now. Plus an extra hit for every bolt shot? All of this on vehicles?
Yeah, you're peddling some crazy bs if this is a "substantial nerf". It's way better now.
You mean playing to the fluff of the Chapter by running smaller units? How dare I do something so heinous?! Read the frickin' article.
"To make the most of this powerful Chapter Tactic, fielding multiple small units of Crimson Fists is the way to go. Units of five Intercessors equipped with your bolt rifle of choice will do you especially proud."
I run six fething five man squads of Intercessors. Six.
Honestly there’s no reason the Crimson Fists need to run in small squads in the fluff. If a company is at half strength, it doesn’t matter if they field 5 squads of 10 or 10 squads of 5. Plus it’s been a few hundred years by now. The chapter shouldn’t be facing a numbers issue beyond the norms for any chapter.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.
Were you really only using characters and 3 model units?
No vehicles? No bigger units to maximize the detachment strats? Characters didn't even need it.
I'd say it's a nerf if you were playing a weird janky list, but for everyone else it's a buff. Bigger squads of Hellblasters for the strats, or even Veteran Intercessors aren't dropping the tactic and are actually an option now. Plus an extra hit for every bolt shot? All of this on vehicles?
Yeah, you're peddling some crazy bs if this is a "substantial nerf". It's way better now.
You mean playing to the fluff of the Chapter by running smaller units? How dare I do something so heinous?! Read the frickin' article.
"To make the most of this powerful Chapter Tactic, fielding multiple small units of Crimson Fists is the way to go. Units of five Intercessors equipped with your bolt rifle of choice will do you especially proud."
I run six fething five man squads of Intercessors. Six.
which means it'll be a benifical chapter tactic agaisnt hoard armies partiuclarly those that have to take squads of 10 or more. such as guard, Tyranids (speaking 'nid hoard armies specificly here) and Orks.. I assume Orks can't take 5 man Boyz squads?
it does mean the advantage dissappers after you inflict casualites but crimson fists are hardly alone in that
BrianDavion wrote: maybe let reivers upgrade their bolt pistols to hand flamers. it might give them an added close range punch and flamers are a pretty obvious idea for a terror weapon
Naw, just give them Reiver Combat Knives (-1 AP) and increase the range of their shock grenades. Done and done. Also, give the Phobos Characters Reiver Combat Knives.
it does mean the advantage dissappers after you inflict casualites but crimson fists are hardly alone in that
What CT or benefits disappear when you inflict casualties?
honest question as last i recall most peoples power stay on no matter how good or bad you are doing.
when resolving an attack against a unit with at least 5 more units.
thus if I inflict casualties and your unit is now 6 strong...
Did i read what you said wrong? i though you meant other chapters tactics get turned off once they start inflicting casualties.
"it does mean the advantage dissappers after you inflict casualites but crimson fists are hardly alone in that "
The only other powers i know that technically get turned off is funny enough the imperial fists whom ignore cover is worthless when the opponent willfully disregards cover to just move up.
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Crimson fists: sometimes maybe I get +1 to BS and +1 to WS Imperial Fist: sometimes maybe I get +1 to AP
Honestly, these chapter tactics marines are getting are better than every other faction trait out there.
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Crimson fists: sometimes maybe I get +1 to BS and +1 to WS Imperial Fist: sometimes maybe I get +1 to AP
Honestly, these chapter tactics marines are getting are better than every other faction trait out there.
it can be up to +2 in Imperial fists case, if they're shooting at opponents with camo cloaks
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Crimson fists: sometimes maybe I get +1 to BS and +1 to WS Imperial Fist: sometimes maybe I get +1 to AP
Honestly, these chapter tactics marines are getting are better than every other faction trait out there.
+1" to move, charge, and advance rolls is still up there though.
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)
Yeah, it is pretty annoying. I guess we know what fanboy is in charge of writing the codex again. Same busted IH shenanigans as in 7e.
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)
Yeah, it is pretty annoying. I guess we know what fanboy is in charge of writing the codex again. Same busted IH shenanigans as in 7e.
Oh please, Iron Hands were NOT busted in 7th. You needed 250+ points for a single model (well sometimes two) and that's a hefty investment.
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)
Yeah, it is pretty annoying. I guess we know what fanboy is in charge of writing the codex again. Same busted IH shenanigans as in 7e.
Oh please, Iron Hands were NOT busted in 7th. You needed 250+ points for a single model (well sometimes two) and that's a hefty investment.
You're right. Smashf***er was not an invincible juggernaut. And the Fist of Medusa Strike Force wasn't granting 50% immunity to wounds.
At any rate, it was dumb then. I would rather we don't go back to that level of nonsense. The new Chapter Tactics could be paired with other nonsense. I hope not though. I really do hope that new model is a special character. He looks awesome.
To be fair smash captains were not unique to iron hands and their tactic was not inherently a problem. A 6 up fnp and a 1/3 chance my rhinos and ICs might get a wound back wasn't that big of a deal.
GW giving them a dumb relic was more of the issue.
'
Eonfuzz wrote: Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?
Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?
Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.
Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.
Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)
Yeah, it is pretty annoying. I guess we know what fanboy is in charge of writing the codex again. Same busted IH shenanigans as in 7e.
Oh please, Iron Hands were NOT busted in 7th. You needed 250+ points for a single model (well sometimes two) and that's a hefty investment.
You're right. Smashf***er was not an invincible juggernaut. And the Fist of Medusa Strike Force wasn't granting 50% immunity to wounds.
At any rate, it was dumb then. I would rather we don't go back to that level of nonsense. The new Chapter Tactics could be paired with other nonsense. I hope not though. I really do hope that new model is a special character. He looks awesome.
On the CF tactic being weak, I think it's meta dependent. If hordes start dominating, it'll be fantastic but as it stands, the biggest threats out there are still big, single units like knights, flyers, talos etc.
A dakka repulsor is already shredding orks, shredding them a bit more is just overkill. We'll see though, stratagems/relics/WL traits might save the day.
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
MSU is the way for all marines it seems really. (considering the traits of the purge, scourged, RC, for atleast all former chapter based CSM even)
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.
At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.
Crazyterran wrote: Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?
I hope not. Specialist detachments should be tied to the campaign they're supplied with and should not be legal in matched plays. It doesn't make sense that someone gets outlandish special bonus simply because his/her army is part of a special treatment while others do not.
Like the saying our teachers used to say, if you don't have enough pieces of gum for the entire classroom, don't chew it in class.
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.
At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.
It's only gross until you realize how much a Centurion costs.
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.
At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.
Fluffy or not, I think people complaining about Crimson Fists' new CT are failing to see the larger picture where the current meta is defined by hordes & knights.
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.
At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.
It's only gross until you realize how much a Centurion costs.
I think people are missing the point here - the real winner here are repulsors/executioner/stormravens and the likes with ridiculous firepower density and splitfire capacity/capabilities.
Crazyterran wrote: Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?
I hope not. Specialist detachments should be tied to the campaign they're supplied with and should not be legal in matched plays. It doesn't make sense that someone gets outlandish special bonus simply because his/her army is part of a special treatment while others do not.
Like the saying our teachers used to say, if you don't have enough pieces of gum for the entire classroom, don't chew it in class.
Special bonuses that cost a CP to gain access and then more CP to activate. And another CP if you want Field Commander.
There is little reason to exclude them in my eyes unless you can prove they're breaking something?
Crazyterran wrote: Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?
I hope not. Specialist detachments should be tied to the campaign they're supplied with and should not be legal in matched plays. It doesn't make sense that someone gets outlandish special bonus simply because his/her army is part of a special treatment while others do not.
Like the saying our teachers used to say, if you don't have enough pieces of gum for the entire classroom, don't chew it in class.
Special bonuses that cost a CP to gain access and then more CP to activate. And another CP if you want Field Commander.
There is little reason to exclude them in my eyes unless you can prove they're breaking something?
Paid for or not, it further aggravates the racial disparity between those who received specialist detachments and those who did not. If every faction got two or three specialist detachments to choose from, then it would fall under balancing issues. Outright giving it to select few "playstyles" and armies is not a good design move for any board game that tries to be "competitive" by giving it a ruleset for "competitive gaming" i.e. "Matched Play". More and more codex releases, less and less it is becoming "matched".
You say there's little reason not to include it along matched play ruleset, I say there's many reasons to not include it. Leave the gimmicky buffs to campaigns and open plays.
In fact, SM and variants are infinitely more viable in open play w/ power levels because they need special weapons to thrive and special weapons don't cost PL's.
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.
At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.
I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. A 6 to-hit will generate a Mortal wound via the strat and an additional hit via the trait, but the additional hit isn't an additional roll of 6 to-hit. (Stacking Bolter Drill on top of it could generate additional MWs if Bolter Drill survives as a strat, but I don't expect that to happen.)
Crazyterran wrote: Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?
I hope not. Specialist detachments should be tied to the campaign they're supplied with and should not be legal in matched plays. It doesn't make sense that someone gets outlandish special bonus simply because his/her army is part of a special treatment while others do not.
Like the saying our teachers used to say, if you don't have enough pieces of gum for the entire classroom, don't chew it in class.
Special bonuses that cost a CP to gain access and then more CP to activate. And another CP if you want Field Commander.
There is little reason to exclude them in my eyes unless you can prove they're breaking something?
Paid for or not, it further aggravates the racial disparity between those who received specialist detachments and those who did not. If every faction got two or three specialist detachments to choose from, then it would fall under balancing issues. Outright giving it to select few "playstyles" and armies is not a good design move for any board game that tries to be "competitive" by giving it a ruleset for "competitive gaming" i.e. "Matched Play". More and more codex releases, less and less it is becoming "matched".
You say there's little reason not to include it along matched play ruleset, I say there's many reasons to not include it. Leave the gimmicky buffs to campaigns and open plays.
I understand your concern, but have you heard about tournaments experiencing difficulties with armies employing these formations? I have not, personally. In the top 10 I see barely any specialist detachments. The Soulforged is the most common and it's literally being used to buff a single model, which is hardly different than someone dropping 3CP for relics.
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.
At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.
I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. A 6 to-hit will generate a Mortal wound via the strat and an additional hit via the trait, but the additional hit isn't an additional roll of 6 to-hit. (Stacking Bolter Drill on top of it could generate additional MWs if Bolter Drill survives as a strat, but I don't expect that to happen.)
Siege Masters generates more hits on a natural roll of a 6. Siegebreaker Cohort's Seismic Devastation Stratagem generates additional mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of a 6. Centurions pump out 18 bolt weapon shots each in a turn. That averages 3 additional hits per Centurion on average. So roughly 15 hits or so each. That is 45 hits per three. Roughly 1/6 will become mortal wounds, so around 7 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage on a squad of three. That is pretty decent. Slayer-Fan123 is right, it won't come cheap. But adding a Captain and a Lieutenant (another 200ish points...) drives the number up further.
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.
At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.
I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. A 6 to-hit will generate a Mortal wound via the strat and an additional hit via the trait, but the additional hit isn't an additional roll of 6 to-hit. (Stacking Bolter Drill on top of it could generate additional MWs if Bolter Drill survives as a strat, but I don't expect that to happen.)
Siege Masters generates more hits on a natural roll of a 6. Siegebreaker Cohort's Seismic Devastation Stratagem generates additional mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of a 6. Centurions pump out 18 bolt weapon shots each in a turn. That averages 3 additional hits per Centurion on average. So roughly 15 hits or so each. That is 45 hits per three. Roughly 1/6 will become mortal wounds, so around 7 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage on a squad of three. That is pretty decent. Slayer-Fan123 is right, it won't come cheap. But adding a Captain and a Lieutenant (another 200ish points...) drives the number up further.
The way you wrote it sounded like you meant a 6 to-hit would generate a MW from Seismic Devastation and an additional hit from the chapter trait that would also generate a MW from Seismic Devastation, which would have been wrong on a couple of different fronts.
You're right about it generation additional MWs though. 1.5 before rerolls, probably not much over 2 with rerolls. Considering it only works on vehicles and buildings I'd hardly call that gross for the points and CPs involved.
So far as I know the Vigilus detachments were only legal for as long as the campaign season was running (although that's not stopping anyone), so GW probably considers it a moot point anyway
So far as I know the Vigilus detachments were only legal for as long as the campaign season was running (although that's not stopping anyone), so GW probably considers it a moot point anyway
This is not a thing. FBGW confirmed the availability of Vigilus formations with these books.
BrianDavion wrote: if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU
Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.
At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.
I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. A 6 to-hit will generate a Mortal wound via the strat and an additional hit via the trait, but the additional hit isn't an additional roll of 6 to-hit. (Stacking Bolter Drill on top of it could generate additional MWs if Bolter Drill survives as a strat, but I don't expect that to happen.)
Siege Masters generates more hits on a natural roll of a 6. Siegebreaker Cohort's Seismic Devastation Stratagem generates additional mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of a 6. Centurions pump out 18 bolt weapon shots each in a turn. That averages 3 additional hits per Centurion on average. So roughly 15 hits or so each. That is 45 hits per three. Roughly 1/6 will become mortal wounds, so around 7 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage on a squad of three. That is pretty decent. Slayer-Fan123 is right, it won't come cheap. But adding a Captain and a Lieutenant (another 200ish points...) drives the number up further.
The way you wrote it sounded like you meant a 6 to-hit would generate a MW from Seismic Devastation and an additional hit from the chapter trait that would also generate a MW from Seismic Devastation, which would have been wrong on a couple of different fronts.
You're right about it generation additional MWs though. 1.5 before rerolls, probably not much over 2 with rerolls. Considering it only works on vehicles and buildings I'd hardly call that gross for the points and CPs involved.
So far as I know the Vigilus detachments were only legal for as long as the campaign season was running (although that's not stopping anyone), so GW probably considers it a moot point anyway
This was never said. Specialist detachments released show typical ways that different factions deploy their forces. They don’t stop doing this after they leave Vigilus.
usmcmidn wrote: So with this making a new chapter thing on warhammer community, it makes it sound like you pick two chapter tactics???
Am I reading that right?!
Sort of.
There are successor traits you can pick two of instead of one of the founding chapter tactics, so you can't be Iron Hands and Ultramarines, but you can have parts of Salamanders and Iron Hands mixed together.
So I can grab the re-roll one miss and wound roll, and grab the 6+ FNP or the -1 to hit and +1 for cover if my enemy is shooting me more than 12” away?
usmcmidn wrote: So I can grab the re-roll one miss and wound roll, and grab the 6+ FNP or the -1 to hit and +1 for cover if my enemy is shooting me more than 12” away?
That seems OP.
For one, the previewed Ravenguard ripoff only grants "as if cover" if more than 12" portion.
And we don't know the full extent of the sets of successor traits yet so hold onto your seat belts!
So, buff for eliminators, standard Marines with mines, possible 15" heavy flamer in advanced position and increases ap for weapons in the various phases of battle?
So no.
