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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/05/space-marines-preview-enhanced-chapter-tacticsgw-homepage-post-1-2/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kSpaceMarineChapterRulesAug05

New Chapter Tactics, and it seems they apply to all units now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ultramarines tactic still technically makes FLY units worse (they have to take the -1 to hit when they fall back and shoot) but if it applies to all units with FLY that means a bunch of Ultramarines units just got a nerf.

I disagree for Raven Guard. +1 to the save is still really good and you can still get a -1 to hit on TOP of that.

Crimson Fists are the worst previewed due to the minimum unit size restrictions typically done and not really handling the fact that Pedro can hit a squad of 2 Gaunts more accurately than he hits an Imperial Knight or even a Dreadnought.

Well, 3 aggressors shooting at a unit of 8+, if bolter drill stratagem is still a thing, can do more wonders than before.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree for Raven Guard. +1 to the save is still really good and you can still get a -1 to hit on TOP of that.

I misread the ability. Yeah, I think it's pretty good. Slightly worse for Infantry in that they need to hug terrain to get the -1, but still very strong. A fair compromise as it was already a very strong tactic.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree for Raven Guard. +1 to the save is still really good and you can still get a -1 to hit on TOP of that.

Crimson Fists are the worst previewed due to the minimum unit size restrictions typically done and not really handling the fact that Pedro can hit a squad of 2 Gaunts more accurately than he hits an Imperial Knight or even a Dreadnought.

They could always do that.

In cover they are exactly like old ravens, -1 to hit and +1 save.

Out of cover the old ravens had -1 to hit, the new ravens have +1 save.

I count this one as a nerf honestly. (But cover is applied to vehicles, which is good).

I really like the look of these and I notice that all the bonuses do seem very neatly locked into pieces added on top of each other. Looking at the existing options I personally believe we will see a lot of these (if not all) make there way into the custom chapter picking any two which would be great for giving them versatility, but perhaps the at the cost of not having access to the supplement books. Who knows.

So far I really like the salamander option due to it being an awesome and reliable way to pour out damage with tons of re-rolls and really nice to buff the power fist sergeants on top of now being immune to -1 attacks which are quite common. That will for sure save them some wounds. Even on high rof weapons 1 free re-roll to hit and to wound is going to make a difference.

The Iron Hand one reminds me a bit of the deathskull orks because it's caked with benefits. They retain the 6+ FNP which is nice (especially on vehicles and primaris) with now doubling their efficiency in overwatch which any Tau player can tell you is really solid and finally their vehicles pretty much ignore the damage table until dead which again I think is a potentially underrated bonus that will really make a difference.

It's hardly a nerf. Mathematically it might be a little less, but hugging cover isn't impossible and vehicles get the +1 to the save too. That's more a sidegrade than anything.


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I also didn't think much about the double wounds on vehicles. That's godly for Contemtor variants.

I’m going to be laughing if Marine vees get changed such that Raven Guard ends up being the best tanker Chapter.

Who writes these articles?

... The ability to Advance and charge grants them the equivalent of a 3D6 charge range, and models equipped with Assault weapons – such as Intercessors with auto bolt rifles – can fire at full accuracy even as they do...

So, Intercessors are getting BIKER keyword?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's hardly a nerf. Mathematically it might be a little less, but hugging cover isn't impossible and vehicles get the +1 to the save too. That's more a sidegrade than anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also didn't think much about the double wounds on vehicles. That's godly for Contemtor variants.

Yeah. Infantry are going to be slightly worse off, but vehicles better than they were.

I think it is a slight nerf because -1 to hit anywhere on the battlefield (over 12") is just that good that any restriction on it isn't quite balanced by the positives.

Overall, very fair change to the ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crnaguja wrote:
Who writes these articles?

Not the same people who write the rules.

Sterling191 wrote:
I’m going to be laughing if Marine vees get changed such that Raven Guard ends up being the best tanker Chapter.

Hardly.

Iron hands appear to be really good for vehicles, and white scars can also make some creative builds with speeders now.

Spoletta wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
I’m going to be laughing if Marine vees get changed such that Raven Guard ends up being the best tanker Chapter.

Hardly.

Iron hands appear to be really good for vehicles, and white scars can also make some creative builds with speeders now.

Speeders aren’t Bikers.

 Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's hardly a nerf. Mathematically it might be a little less, but hugging cover isn't impossible and vehicles get the +1 to the save too. That's more a sidegrade than anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also didn't think much about the double wounds on vehicles. That's godly for Contemtor variants.

Yeah. Infantry are going to be slightly worse off, but vehicles better than they were.

I think it is a slight nerf because -1 to hit anywhere on the battlefield (over 12") is just that good that any restriction on it isn't quite balanced by the positives.

Overall, very fair change to the ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 crnaguja wrote:
Who writes these articles?

Not the same people who write the rules.

Or who know how to read the rules

Sterling191 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
I’m going to be laughing if Marine vees get changed such that Raven Guard ends up being the best tanker Chapter.

Hardly.

Iron hands appear to be really good for vehicles, and white scars can also make some creative builds with speeders now.

Speeders aren’t Bikers.

True, my bad.

S’all good. I looked specifically as it would have made them hugely effective. Speeders plus Bikers with attack bikes would be awesome.

In regards to these tactics I think it's important to note that they are coming with full supplements to augment these rules and some of the rules found in said supplements may completely change how we view these tactics. People praising the Iron Hand and Salamander ones (such as myself) might be very let down to find out their supplement rules are rather lame where as a tactic I personally consider weaker (White scars) might have amazing supplement rules.

I am going to predict right now though that Iron Hands have a way to make a unit have a 5+ FNP. It's either going to be 1 cp strat to increase their fnp by 1 or a character aura.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
In regards to these tactics I think it's important to note that they are coming with full supplements to augment these rules and some of the rules found in said supplements may completely change how we view these tactics. People praising the Iron Hand and Salamander ones (such as myself) might be very let down to find out their supplement rules are rather lame where as a tactic I personally consider weaker (White scars) might have amazing supplement rules.

I am going to predict right now though that Iron Hands have a way to make a unit have a 5+ FNP. It's either going to be 1 cp strat to increase their fnp by 1 or a character aura.

Very true, but until we have more details this is what we have. We can still evaluate how powerful these abilities are, and adjust from there with any new information.

I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.

Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.

Reemule wrote:
I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.

Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.

Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.

Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.

LOL don't make me laugh. You are also tying down a unit when you can't shoot. It is fething terrible. The -1 should be removed - it is plainly obvious to anyone unbiased. You know what is stupid good? An ironhands razorback getting the same number of hits in overwatch and having a 6+ FNP and ignoring degrading profiles.

Fall back and shoot is still really good. I’d hold off on UM being not great until we see stratagems. There could be stuff that benefits max unit sizes that would bring their leadership bonus more into play. Who knows at this point.

Plus you just can’t ignore Gman, sorry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.

Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.

I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.

Quasistellar wrote:
Fall back and shoot is still really good. I’d hold off on UM being not great until we see stratagems. There could be stuff that benefits max unit sizes that would bring their leadership bonus more into play. Who knows at this point.

Plus you just can’t ignore Gman, sorry.

Hard to ignore him. Hes 400 fething points.

 Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.

Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.

I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.

Just have to settle for access to Tiggy, Gman, Calgar, etc etc etc.

 Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.

Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.

I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.

It's really not dude.

Consider gameplay. Most units can't fall back and charge so when you fallback to shoot you have to kill that unit or it just charges something else. More often than not you are better off leaving yourself locked. ESP with a rhino type chassis which can hold up even a powerful unit for a few turns. Fall back and shoot to get a few hits and maybe do 1 damage is worth dick. Intercessors who stay locked put out almost twice the damage if they stay locked as opposed to falling back. In the few situations it actually helps you - you were likely winning anyways - the -1 to hit needs to be removed AND it will still be the worst tactic available. it is indisputable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Fall back and shoot is still really good. I’d hold off on UM being not great until we see stratagems. There could be stuff that benefits max unit sizes that would bring their leadership bonus more into play. Who knows at this point.

Plus you just can’t ignore Gman, sorry.

Hard to ignore him. Hes 400 fething points.

Personally I wish they’d nerf his auras, and maybe they will along with a points drop. After seeing the stalker bolter change and the upgraded CT I’m not sure I’d rule anything out just yet. All will be revealed in a week, so I’m trying to stay positive.

Wow, that change to RG makes me wonder if Alpha Legion/Alaitoc will get a similar change.

Or how they choose to change Chaos Marine traits for that matter. The really need to, otherwise there is gonna be just so much salt.

-

Quasistellar wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.

Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.

I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.

Just have to settle for access to Tiggy, Gman, Calgar, etc etc etc.

None of that makes up for 2-3 bonus stats added to all the units in your army. +1LD is wortless (You get fearless from ancient banner (our best model)) and fall back and shoot at -1 is literally useless - you are better off staying locked and denying them a charge. Maybe helpful vs kraken hormies.

Quasistellar wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dude, fall back and shoot is amazing. Especially now you get it on your Razorbacks that still on average land 4 shots from the Assault Cannon or a Predator taking potshots. Not being completely tied down is stupid good.

Agreed. It is somewhat matchup dependent though, in that against a static gunline it does nothing at all. But against an opponent that wants to get into melee it's great.

I can understand people wanting a tactic that is more universally useful.

Just have to settle for access to Tiggy, Gman, Calgar, etc etc etc.

It's also about how you leverage it too. If you shoot and make a charge, you either force your opponent to fall back or you get to fall back and shoot again. Better with Flying stuff of course that will most likely make a charge and got high movement and shooting.