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 Ishagu wrote:
3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.

400 points less and more durable.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

How is rerolling one miss almost identical to rerolling all misses and all failed wounds?

I get that you'll often not get more than 1 miss anyway (out of 4 hit rolls for a quad las Predator), so on the hit roll it is not far off Guilliman (though it is still a bit behind). But not getting the re-roll wounds is massive, it's a huge part of Guilliman's value.

I might be missing something here, so please share your maths.

Salamanders can also reroll one failed wound per unit.

It's not as good as rerolling everything (there's always those times when you roll three 1 and a 2), but it's pretty darn good for low shot, high damage platforms.

 McGibs wrote:
Salamanders can also reroll one failed wound per unit.

Ah, apologies.

However it is still a fair bit behind Guilliman when you factor in the chance of two or more failed hit rolls and two or more failed wound rolls.

Maybe not 400 points difference, but it would be dishonest to say the damage throughput would be very close.

Who knows, maybe auras are gone.

That is the best suggestion ever.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(

Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!

I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.

but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.

Sallies differ from Gman for a Pred if 2+ shots fail to hit or 2+ wounds fail to wound.

Odds that 2+ shots fail to hit I think ~30% of the time.
Effectively 25% (or more) additional firepower 30% of the time is roughly 7.5% increased firepower on it's own.

The wounding is a bit harder to calculate, but it's less than Hitting (although they compound - they aren't independent). They also vary by target.

So Sallys are worse off than Gman. But then, Sallies get 400 more points of stuff to compensate.

Now, Sally Preds with a Captain/LT are a lot closer. Hitting is down to ~12% chance for Gman to mean anything, or an EV of about 3% increased throughput. Wounding would again be less than hitting.

^I say no judgement until book/s.

It all looks nice, but we just have no idea.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(

Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!

I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.

but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.

Except maybe 6CP over the game for a Warlord trait is pretty bad return on the investment. Even if you do take the pain and make Gman your warlord it's not a good trait as your already taking a hit on detachments and could have had 5 CP for 180 points.
Pre Grand strategist nerfing all regen traits it was worthwhile.
Now he needs to be handing out free strategums per turn to be worth 400points.

Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.

There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.


Guilliman also boosts Scout snipers massively if you go for a mortal fishing army. Those guys put up better AT numbers than most AT units due to mortals. Guilliman buffing is the main counter argument to what I wrote above, no way can his aura be table sized.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(

Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!

I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.

but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.

Except maybe 6CP over the game for a Warlord trait is pretty bad return on the investment. Even if you do take the pain and make Gman your warlord it's not a good trait as your already taking a hit on detachments and could have had 5 CP for 180 points.
Pre Grand strategist nerfing all regen traits it was worthwhile.
Now he needs to be handing out free strategums per turn to be worth 400points.

well no if you take Gulliman for a warlord trait you're an idiot. (considering you can get the warlord trait for a 100 point captain instead) Gulliman's problem is he offers a LOT to an army but not all at once, he offers amazing support to a gunline yes, but he's ALSO a melee powerhouse. etc. part of me wonders if, especially in light of shock assault he might be better off rushing up the board with a selection of space marine units that are geared for melee.

bort wrote:
Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.

There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.


Guilliman also boosts Scout snipers massively if you go for a mortal fishing army. Those guys put up better AT numbers than most AT units due to mortals. Guilliman buffing is the main counter argument to what I wrote above, no way can his aura be table sized.

MW is an overused mechanic period way to many to make high defences with low wounds a sound investment.
Reroll wounds was a bad mechanic period, it rewards using the wrong weapon against the wrong target more than using the right weapons on the right targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(

Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!

I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.

but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.

Except maybe 6CP over the game for a Warlord trait is pretty bad return on the investment. Even if you do take the pain and make Gman your warlord it's not a good trait as your already taking a hit on detachments and could have had 5 CP for 180 points.
Pre Grand strategist nerfing all regen traits it was worthwhile.
Now he needs to be handing out free strategums per turn to be worth 400points.

well no if you take Gulliman for a warlord trait you're an idiot. (considering you can get the warlord trait for a 100 point captain instead) Gulliman's problem is he offers a LOT to an army but not all at once, he offers amazing support to a gunline yes, but he's ALSO a melee powerhouse. etc. part of me wonders if, especially in light of shock assault he might be better off rushing up the board with a selection of space marine units that are geared for melee.

Or I could get the same warlord trait on a 30 point guard HQ.
Simple put the Ultramarines Warlord trait which Gman, Calgar Tiggy etc are forced to take isn't a good choice but you don't get a choice.
Now Gman with a choice of Warlord traits might be worth the terrible chapter tactic.

bort wrote:
Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.

There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.

Yeah, it was 4th. There was a bonus perk of having to shoot the closest unit unless you passed a Ld check, too. With the Captain all marines had Ld 10. Better morale, better fire discipline. Awesome.

Sicarius gave his Ld for several editions after that. I took him a lot.

Ice_can wrote:

bort wrote:
Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.

There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.


Guilliman also boosts Scout snipers massively if you go for a mortal fishing army. Those guys put up better AT numbers than most AT units due to mortals. Guilliman buffing is the main counter argument to what I wrote above, no way can his aura be table sized.

MW is an overused mechanic period way to many to make high defences with low wounds a sound investment.
Reroll wounds was a bad mechanic period, it rewards using the wrong weapon against the wrong target more than using the right weapons on the right targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(

Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!

I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.

but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.

Except maybe 6CP over the game for a Warlord trait is pretty bad return on the investment. Even if you do take the pain and make Gman your warlord it's not a good trait as your already taking a hit on detachments and could have had 5 CP for 180 points.
Pre Grand strategist nerfing all regen traits it was worthwhile.
Now he needs to be handing out free strategums per turn to be worth 400points.

well no if you take Gulliman for a warlord trait you're an idiot. (considering you can get the warlord trait for a 100 point captain instead) Gulliman's problem is he offers a LOT to an army but not all at once, he offers amazing support to a gunline yes, but he's ALSO a melee powerhouse. etc. part of me wonders if, especially in light of shock assault he might be better off rushing up the board with a selection of space marine units that are geared for melee.

Or I could get the same warlord trait on a 30 point guard HQ.
Simple put the Ultramarines Warlord trait which Gman, Calgar Tiggy etc are forced to take isn't a good choice but you don't get a choice.
Now Gman with a choice of Warlord traits might be worth the terrible chapter tactic.

Mw is just the reaction to the invulnerable Inflation imo.
Both sides of the same coin.


Edit: i do wonder though if they atleast update the csm mirror tactics.
And or add sideffects for non replicable legion traits for stuff like we, WB, RC, etc.

 Insectum7 wrote:

bort wrote:
Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.

There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.

Yeah, it was 4th. There was a bonus perk of having to shoot the closest unit unless you passed a Ld check, too. With the Captain all marines had Ld 10. Better morale, better fire discipline. Awesome.

Sicarius gave his Ld for several editions after that. I took him a lot.

being able to get aura bonuses anywhere on the table would be insane. it'd make marines NUTS, at the same time I think it would solve a thematic issue with marines. right now marine HQs teeend to stay at the back with a firing line directing fire, this might work for say a gaurd army or something, but with Marines, thats not what I think of, I think of the captain directing the battle while rushing in where the fighting is thickest to contribute personally. and that change would allow it, of course it might make marines broken, I mean the end result would be Gulliman rushing forward and using his insane melee capability while the gunline in the back reins down the rediculas firepower.. I can hear the cries of hate now.

^Depends on the bonuses. If it was just reroll 1s, I don't think it'd be an issue.

The thing is rerolls themselves get tiring, as well as the clumping of models. Rerolling 1s would be far less tedious than all the CM rerolls.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Depends on the bonuses. If it was just reroll 1s, I don't think it'd be an issue.

The thing is rerolls themselves get tiring, as well as the clumping of models. Rerolling 1s would be far less tedious than all the CM rerolls.

You'd LOVE Deathwatch then it sounds like.

Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?

What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book

Hellebore wrote:
Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?

What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book

because the core rules are the CORE RULES. the supplements are optional. If I wanna play the ultramarines I don't NEED the ultramarines supplement. I might want it for the unique charaters and units sure, but it's also not nesscary.(the supplemental codexes thing is also being done to cut down on the number of pages in codex space marines, make no mistake)

BrianDavion wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?

What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book

because the core rules are the CORE RULES. the supplements are optional. If I wanna play the ultramarines I don't NEED the ultramarines supplement. I might want it for the unique charaters and units sure, but it's also not nesscary.(the supplemental codexes thing is also being done to cut down on the number of pages in codex space marines, make no mistake)

Yeah I agree it's nice to have the basic Chapter Tactics and common datasheets/powers/relics/strats etc in a single book (as now) but then added OPTIONAL units/characters/powers/strats and even Successor traits in other books if you so desire.

I'll be picking up the main Codex only. My sons will then buy their respective supplements (UM & Salamanders)

-

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Depends on the bonuses. If it was just reroll 1s, I don't think it'd be an issue.

The thing is rerolls themselves get tiring, as well as the clumping of models. Rerolling 1s would be far less tedious than all the CM rerolls.

You'd LOVE Deathwatch then it sounds like.

Deathwatch are like marines, but without style and taste. So no.

Do I hear cries of malcontent because SM are not getting enough special rules and new shiny units?? Couldn't be... The shock(!)

I guess we will see the next 6 months of some broken OP marine malarkay until CA drops and reigns in the madness. Standard GW MO.

Looking forward to this...

 Argive wrote:
Do I hear cries of malcontent because SM are not getting enough special rules and new shiny units?? Couldn't be... The shock(!)

I guess we will see the next 6 months of some broken OP marine malarkay until CA drops and reigns in the madness. Standard GW MO.

Looking forward to this...

yeah because marines have been sooooooooooooo broken this edition!

Oh look, crimsons fists.

This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Oh look, crimsons fists.

This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?

how much does an Ork Boy cost?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Oh look, crimsons fists.

This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?

how much does an Ork Boy cost?

How much does a tactical marine cost in the new codex?

 Insectum7 wrote:
The only Improvement I'm looking for now involves Drop Pods.

Should be interesting to see if they bothered to touch them at all.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

bort wrote:
Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.

There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.

Yeah, it was 4th. There was a bonus perk of having to shoot the closest unit unless you passed a Ld check, too. With the Captain all marines had Ld 10. Better morale, better fire discipline. Awesome.

Sicarius gave his Ld for several editions after that. I took him a lot.

being able to get aura bonuses anywhere on the table would be insane. it'd make marines NUTS, at the same time I think it would solve a thematic issue with marines. right now marine HQs teeend to stay at the back with a firing line directing fire, this might work for say a gaurd army or something, but with Marines, thats not what I think of, I think of the captain directing the battle while rushing in where the fighting is thickest to contribute personally. and that change would allow it, of course it might make marines broken, I mean the end result would be Gulliman rushing forward and using his insane melee capability while the gunline in the back reins down the rediculas firepower.. I can hear the cries of hate now.

I was thinking of a way to get out of the 6" aura problem without also having guilliman be an issue a little while ago. Essentially, Aura's would still be present, but for units with a Sergeant or equivalent, they would still get the benefit of Aura's, from HQ units only, when outside of the regular 6" range. This way, units that don't thematically have a sergeant, like BA Death company, blood talons i think, and a few other's, would still need a character babysitter, while other more disciplined units could freely move about the board.
My one caveat to this would be to add the ability to target Sergeants and such with dedicated Sniper weapons, so that there is still a risk of losing your buff to specific units if the opponent has snipers. I dont think this will make any dedicated sniper unit like scouts or eldar rangers any better, but it might give them a nniche use at least.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Oh look, crimsons fists.

This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?

how much does an Ork Boy cost?

How much does a tactical marine cost in the new codex?

...13 points...

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Do I hear cries of malcontent because SM are not getting enough special rules and new shiny units?? Couldn't be... The shock(!)

I guess we will see the next 6 months of some broken OP marine malarkay until CA drops and reigns in the madness. Standard GW MO.

Looking forward to this...

yeah because marines have been sooooooooooooo broken this edition!

Never said they have been broken this edition...


I'm just saying GW doesn't have a good track record with implementing a lot of changes and new units..