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the three taits is odd given that otherwise GW bases around 2. Ironhands are quite literally broken

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

Crimson fists: sometimes maybe I get +1 to BS and +1 to WS
Imperial Fist: sometimes maybe I get +1 to AP

Honestly, these chapter tactics marines are getting are better than every other faction trait out there.

+1" to move, charge, and advance rolls is still up there though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)

Yeah, it is pretty annoying. I guess we know what fanboy is in charge of writing the codex again. Same busted IH shenanigans as in 7e.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)

Yeah, it is pretty annoying. I guess we know what fanboy is in charge of writing the codex again. Same busted IH shenanigans as in 7e.

Oh please, Iron Hands were NOT busted in 7th. You needed 250+ points for a single model (well sometimes two) and that's a hefty investment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)

Yeah, it is pretty annoying. I guess we know what fanboy is in charge of writing the codex again. Same busted IH shenanigans as in 7e.

Oh please, Iron Hands were NOT busted in 7th. You needed 250+ points for a single model (well sometimes two) and that's a hefty investment.

You're right. Smashf***er was not an invincible juggernaut. And the Fist of Medusa Strike Force wasn't granting 50% immunity to wounds.

At any rate, it was dumb then. I would rather we don't go back to that level of nonsense. The new Chapter Tactics could be paired with other nonsense. I hope not though. I really do hope that new model is a special character. He looks awesome.

To be fair smash captains were not unique to iron hands and their tactic was not inherently a problem. A 6 up fnp and a 1/3 chance my rhinos and ICs might get a wound back wasn't that big of a deal.

GW giving them a dumb relic was more of the issue.
'

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)

Yeah, it is pretty annoying. I guess we know what fanboy is in charge of writing the codex again. Same busted IH shenanigans as in 7e.

Oh please, Iron Hands were NOT busted in 7th. You needed 250+ points for a single model (well sometimes two) and that's a hefty investment.

You're right. Smashf***er was not an invincible juggernaut. And the Fist of Medusa Strike Force wasn't granting 50% immunity to wounds.

At any rate, it was dumb then. I would rather we don't go back to that level of nonsense. The new Chapter Tactics could be paired with other nonsense. I hope not though. I really do hope that new model is a special character. He looks awesome.

Yeah with 4 attacks he's easily stopped.

On the CF tactic being weak, I think it's meta dependent. If hordes start dominating, it'll be fantastic but as it stands, the biggest threats out there are still big, single units like knights, flyers, talos etc.

A dakka repulsor is already shredding orks, shredding them a bit more is just overkill. We'll see though, stratagems/relics/WL traits might save the day.

if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

MSU is the way for all marines it seems really. (considering the traits of the purge, scourged, RC, for atleast all former chapter based CSM even)

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?

I hope not. Specialist detachments should be tied to the campaign they're supplied with and should not be legal in matched plays. It doesn't make sense that someone gets outlandish special bonus simply because his/her army is part of a special treatment while others do not.

Like the saying our teachers used to say, if you don't have enough pieces of gum for the entire classroom, don't chew it in class.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

It's only gross until you realize how much a Centurion costs.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

Fluffy or not, I think people complaining about Crimson Fists' new CT are failing to see the larger picture where the current meta is defined by hordes & knights.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

It's only gross until you realize how much a Centurion costs.

I think people are missing the point here - the real winner here are repulsors/executioner/stormravens and the likes with ridiculous firepower density and splitfire capacity/capabilities.

 skchsan wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?

I hope not. Specialist detachments should be tied to the campaign they're supplied with and should not be legal in matched plays. It doesn't make sense that someone gets outlandish special bonus simply because his/her army is part of a special treatment while others do not.

Like the saying our teachers used to say, if you don't have enough pieces of gum for the entire classroom, don't chew it in class.

Special bonuses that cost a CP to gain access and then more CP to activate. And another CP if you want Field Commander.

There is little reason to exclude them in my eyes unless you can prove they're breaking something?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?

I hope not. Specialist detachments should be tied to the campaign they're supplied with and should not be legal in matched plays. It doesn't make sense that someone gets outlandish special bonus simply because his/her army is part of a special treatment while others do not.

Like the saying our teachers used to say, if you don't have enough pieces of gum for the entire classroom, don't chew it in class.

Special bonuses that cost a CP to gain access and then more CP to activate. And another CP if you want Field Commander.

There is little reason to exclude them in my eyes unless you can prove they're breaking something?

Paid for or not, it further aggravates the racial disparity between those who received specialist detachments and those who did not. If every faction got two or three specialist detachments to choose from, then it would fall under balancing issues. Outright giving it to select few "playstyles" and armies is not a good design move for any board game that tries to be "competitive" by giving it a ruleset for "competitive gaming" i.e. "Matched Play". More and more codex releases, less and less it is becoming "matched".

You say there's little reason not to include it along matched play ruleset, I say there's many reasons to not include it. Leave the gimmicky buffs to campaigns and open plays.

In fact, SM and variants are infinitely more viable in open play w/ power levels because they need special weapons to thrive and special weapons don't cost PL's.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. A 6 to-hit will generate a Mortal wound via the strat and an additional hit via the trait, but the additional hit isn't an additional roll of 6 to-hit. (Stacking Bolter Drill on top of it could generate additional MWs if Bolter Drill survives as a strat, but I don't expect that to happen.)

 skchsan wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Are the old specialist detachments stil going to be legal with the new codex?

I hope not. Specialist detachments should be tied to the campaign they're supplied with and should not be legal in matched plays. It doesn't make sense that someone gets outlandish special bonus simply because his/her army is part of a special treatment while others do not.

Like the saying our teachers used to say, if you don't have enough pieces of gum for the entire classroom, don't chew it in class.

Special bonuses that cost a CP to gain access and then more CP to activate. And another CP if you want Field Commander.

There is little reason to exclude them in my eyes unless you can prove they're breaking something?

Paid for or not, it further aggravates the racial disparity between those who received specialist detachments and those who did not. If every faction got two or three specialist detachments to choose from, then it would fall under balancing issues. Outright giving it to select few "playstyles" and armies is not a good design move for any board game that tries to be "competitive" by giving it a ruleset for "competitive gaming" i.e. "Matched Play". More and more codex releases, less and less it is becoming "matched".

You say there's little reason not to include it along matched play ruleset, I say there's many reasons to not include it. Leave the gimmicky buffs to campaigns and open plays.

I understand your concern, but have you heard about tournaments experiencing difficulties with armies employing these formations? I have not, personally. In the top 10 I see barely any specialist detachments. The Soulforged is the most common and it's literally being used to buff a single model, which is hardly different than someone dropping 3CP for relics.

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. A 6 to-hit will generate a Mortal wound via the strat and an additional hit via the trait, but the additional hit isn't an additional roll of 6 to-hit. (Stacking Bolter Drill on top of it could generate additional MWs if Bolter Drill survives as a strat, but I don't expect that to happen.)

Siege Masters generates more hits on a natural roll of a 6. Siegebreaker Cohort's Seismic Devastation Stratagem generates additional mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of a 6. Centurions pump out 18 bolt weapon shots each in a turn. That averages 3 additional hits per Centurion on average. So roughly 15 hits or so each. That is 45 hits per three. Roughly 1/6 will become mortal wounds, so around 7 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage on a squad of three. That is pretty decent. Slayer-Fan123 is right, it won't come cheap. But adding a Captain and a Lieutenant (another 200ish points...) drives the number up further.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. A 6 to-hit will generate a Mortal wound via the strat and an additional hit via the trait, but the additional hit isn't an additional roll of 6 to-hit. (Stacking Bolter Drill on top of it could generate additional MWs if Bolter Drill survives as a strat, but I don't expect that to happen.)

Siege Masters generates more hits on a natural roll of a 6. Siegebreaker Cohort's Seismic Devastation Stratagem generates additional mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of a 6. Centurions pump out 18 bolt weapon shots each in a turn. That averages 3 additional hits per Centurion on average. So roughly 15 hits or so each. That is 45 hits per three. Roughly 1/6 will become mortal wounds, so around 7 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage on a squad of three. That is pretty decent. Slayer-Fan123 is right, it won't come cheap. But adding a Captain and a Lieutenant (another 200ish points...) drives the number up further.

The way you wrote it sounded like you meant a 6 to-hit would generate a MW from Seismic Devastation and an additional hit from the chapter trait that would also generate a MW from Seismic Devastation, which would have been wrong on a couple of different fronts.

You're right about it generation additional MWs though. 1.5 before rerolls, probably not much over 2 with rerolls. Considering it only works on vehicles and buildings I'd hardly call that gross for the points and CPs involved.

So far as I know the Vigilus detachments were only legal for as long as the campaign season was running (although that's not stopping anyone), so GW probably considers it a moot point anyway

The Newman wrote:


So far as I know the Vigilus detachments were only legal for as long as the campaign season was running (although that's not stopping anyone), so GW probably considers it a moot point anyway

This is not a thing. FB GW confirmed the availability of Vigilus formations with these books.

So with this making a new chapter thing on warhammer community, it makes it sound like you pick two chapter tactics???

Am I reading that right?!

usmcmidn wrote:
So with this making a new chapter thing on warhammer community, it makes it sound like you pick two chapter tactics???

Am I reading that right?!

I belive so, altough i am no native english speaker, but yes.

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if GW changed the rules to make taking alrge units more desirable crimson fists would be a lot better but as it is the rules REALLY enchourage a MSU

Even GW said that they think MSU is the proper way to play them. And it makes the most sense fluffwise. Crimson Fists have different tactics from Imperial Fists BECAUSE they were needing to run small units.

At any rate, there is a gross combo that can be done with Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort and a big squad of Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Centurions now. Chapter Tactics generates additional hits which generates additional Mortal Wounds. It is gross.

I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. A 6 to-hit will generate a Mortal wound via the strat and an additional hit via the trait, but the additional hit isn't an additional roll of 6 to-hit. (Stacking Bolter Drill on top of it could generate additional MWs if Bolter Drill survives as a strat, but I don't expect that to happen.)

Siege Masters generates more hits on a natural roll of a 6. Siegebreaker Cohort's Seismic Devastation Stratagem generates additional mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of a 6. Centurions pump out 18 bolt weapon shots each in a turn. That averages 3 additional hits per Centurion on average. So roughly 15 hits or so each. That is 45 hits per three. Roughly 1/6 will become mortal wounds, so around 7 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage on a squad of three. That is pretty decent. Slayer-Fan123 is right, it won't come cheap. But adding a Captain and a Lieutenant (another 200ish points...) drives the number up further.

The way you wrote it sounded like you meant a 6 to-hit would generate a MW from Seismic Devastation and an additional hit from the chapter trait that would also generate a MW from Seismic Devastation, which would have been wrong on a couple of different fronts.

You're right about it generation additional MWs though. 1.5 before rerolls, probably not much over 2 with rerolls. Considering it only works on vehicles and buildings I'd hardly call that gross for the points and CPs involved.

So far as I know the Vigilus detachments were only legal for as long as the campaign season was running (although that's not stopping anyone), so GW probably considers it a moot point anyway

This was never said. Specialist detachments released show typical ways that different factions deploy their forces. They don’t stop doing this after they leave Vigilus.

usmcmidn wrote:
So with this making a new chapter thing on warhammer community, it makes it sound like you pick two chapter tactics???

Am I reading that right?!

Sort of.

There are successor traits you can pick two of instead of one of the founding chapter tactics, so you can't be Iron Hands and Ultramarines, but you can have parts of Salamanders and Iron Hands mixed together.

Warhammer Community has examples: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/06/space-marines-preview-create-your-own-chapter-tacticsgw-homepage-post-1/

So I can grab the re-roll one miss and wound roll, and grab the 6+ FNP or the -1 to hit and +1 for cover if my enemy is shooting me more than 12” away?

That seems OP.

usmcmidn wrote:
So I can grab the re-roll one miss and wound roll, and grab the 6+ FNP or the -1 to hit and +1 for cover if my enemy is shooting me more than 12” away?

That seems OP.

For one, the previewed Ravenguard ripoff only grants "as if cover" if more than 12" portion.

And we don't know the full extent of the sets of successor traits yet so hold onto your seat belts!

They literally killed every non-codex marines with the last news update

So, buff for eliminators, standard Marines with mines, possible 15" heavy flamer in advanced position and increases ap for weapons in the various phases of battle?

Seems nice.