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if they gave autobolt rifles a -1 AP they'd be a solid weapon choice worth taking.

 fraser1191 wrote:
So if they fixed stalker bolt rifles, I wonder if they changed auto bolt rifles. I hope they made it more of a choice. I'll admit I'm kinda thinking about taking a squad with stalkers now. Granted that's only for the veteran stratagem... Never mind I talked myself out of it, I'm just glad they're trying to fix stuff

I think even a simple "no hit penalty if you advance" would give them a bigger niche. You'd have to fix how Deathwatch Aggressors interact with their mixed squads though.

 Desubot wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.

It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.

The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.

Ah. Yeah, so there's a small part that's worse than before, but you're still getting extra hits and ALL your vehicles now have CT. Can't really call that a nerf to the chapter, honestly. As long as you're using a good amount of bolters you should be way better off now. And if you don't, why are you playing Crimson Fists?

Well

1) it doesn't really effect 5man groups but as they diminish the rate of return diminishes as well so straight bumber, you will need to make the best of your attack to make any real effect. and they generally can so not that big of a deal. especially with a hot alpha strike sternguard unit.
2) Vehicles having the CT is great and all but it only really effects an extremely small amount of vehicles and forget vehicle squads as you will never get the bonus. it really only effects dakka boats like the raven or lrc which is nice but not really that great. you dont really want to be burning all your anti tank into a 10 man squad of imperial guards. and not many people run 10 man terminator squads no?
3) bolters are cool and it will be nice in some cases but worthless in others. its kind of a wash.
4) why would you ever ask why some one plays a specific faction.

All in all its a nerf not horrably game breaking but it is a straight nerf.

3 man agressor squads bonus cuts off at 8 vs with 2x mod would of been 6, single HQ model would of been 2 but instead now is 6. no way around that.

yeah, and a 10 man squad has its bonus start at 15 instead of 20 now. We get it, it's being calculated differently. In some situations that's a benefit, in others it's worse than before.

No gak that anti infantry vehicles are the ones that benefit from those CT. But it's strictly a buff to them!
A LRC can easily benefit from both tactics and be very effective at mowing down GEQs - it's not like will be much left after you fire one of the weapon systems a LRC has at any GEQ squad,especially not when it's hitting on 2s.
Your anti tank is not affected at all. You didn't outnumber any tank ever before, and now you don't either. When you run out of tanks to shoot, you're still benefitting from that bonus whenever you predator targets a squad of 10. It didn't, ever, before.

My remark on the army choice was referring to Crimson Fists being famous for bringing a ton of bolters. Just like white scars are using tons of bikes. WS CT is way worse when playing a White Scars gun line, so is the CF one when you don't bring bolters. I wasn't questioning anyone's choice of army, not sure why you'd think that.

Ah, so I have to play an unfluffy version of my army to attack units that hardly ever see play in order to benefit from half of my Chapter Tactic. Literally only one thing gained a bonus from this change and that is units that are 10+ models (Read: Unfluffy as gak for Crimson Fists). Literally every other unit was nerfed.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Ah, so I have to play an unfluffy version of my army to attack units that hardly ever see play in order to benefit from half of my Chapter Tactic. Literally only one thing gained a bonus from this change and that is units that are 10+ models (Read: Unfluffy as gak for Crimson Fists). Literally every other unit was nerfed.

Please explain to me how literally every other unit was nerfed.
I'd even settle for a few examples:

Land Raider Crusader
Dreadnoughts of any kind
Any other vehicle of your choice.
Any unit of currently 5 or more models is at least the same, if they have 6 or more models they're better of. If they have bolt weapons of any kind theyre better of even when there's just 5 guys.

"literally every other unit was nerfed", sure.

OH and your regular msu squad (probably the most common marine unit type) gains the CT bonus vs pretty much all of the meatshield type units, as most of them are 10 or more models, eg infantry squads. They're hardly "hardly ever played".

BrianDavion wrote:if they gave autobolt rifles a -1 AP they'd be a solid weapon choice worth taking.

I think so as well. Although, I feel Reiver Carbines still need something as well since a good portion of the time they are Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles already. Only the Reiver movement upgrades really change them (and yes, I know Reivers still have the heavy bolt pistol, shock grenades and Terror Troops but I don't Carbine loadout use those nearly as much).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So if they fixed stalker bolt rifles, I wonder if they changed auto bolt rifles. I hope they made it more of a choice. I'll admit I'm kinda thinking about taking a squad with stalkers now. Granted that's only for the veteran stratagem... Never mind I talked myself out of it, I'm just glad they're trying to fix stuff

I think even a simple "no hit penalty if you advance" would give them a bigger niche. You'd have to fix how Deathwatch Aggressors interact with their mixed squads though.

This would also work. However, I think the no move penalty applied to Reiver Carbines would work out better since they have more movement tricks to make use of it.

Personally, I lean toward making Auto Bolt Rifles cost no extra points and increasing their range to 30". I know this is probably not an attractive option to most players, but I would appreciate the great threat area that is creates as I am trying to get those intercessors where I want them. I will be pretty happy with any kind of rules that make the Primaris small arms loadouts more of a judgement call that they are currently.

Also just realized something: captains, lieutenants, chaplains, and chapter champions already hit on 2+ in melee and the Captain and Techmarines hit on 2+ at range. Librarians and Ancient hit on 3s, but neither of them are going to want to be near a fight in the first place, and the librarian is a psychic and has smite as his main damage dealer, which is uneffected by BS anyway. Unless you're going out of your way to grab equipment with -1s baked in (power fists and eqv, combi-weapons and firing both profiles), it's a very minimal change for CF.

maybe let reivers upgrade their bolt pistols to hand flamers. it might give them an added close range punch and flamers are a pretty obvious idea for a terror weapon

BrianDavion wrote:
maybe let reivers upgrade their bolt pistols to hand flamers. it might give them an added close range punch and flamers are a pretty obvious idea for a terror weapon

Naw, just give them Reiver Combat Knives (-1 AP) and increase the range of their shock grenades. Done and done. Also, give the Phobos Characters Reiver Combat Knives.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

Were you really only using characters and 3 model units?

No vehicles? No bigger units to maximize the detachment strats? Characters didn't even need it.

I'd say it's a nerf if you were playing a weird janky list, but for everyone else it's a buff. Bigger squads of Hellblasters for the strats, or even Veteran Intercessors aren't dropping the tactic and are actually an option now. Plus an extra hit for every bolt shot? All of this on vehicles?

Yeah, you're peddling some crazy bs if this is a "substantial nerf". It's way better now.

Lemondish wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

Were you really only using characters and 3 model units?

No vehicles? No bigger units to maximize the detachment strats? Characters didn't even need it.

I'd say it's a nerf if you were playing a weird janky list, but for everyone else it's a buff. Bigger squads of Hellblasters for the strats, or even Veteran Intercessors aren't dropping the tactic and are actually an option now. Plus an extra hit for every bolt shot? All of this on vehicles?

Yeah, you're peddling some crazy bs if this is a "substantial nerf". It's way better now.

You mean playing to the fluff of the Chapter by running smaller units? How dare I do something so heinous?! Read the frickin' article.

"To make the most of this powerful Chapter Tactic, fielding multiple small units of Crimson Fists is the way to go. Units of five Intercessors equipped with your bolt rifle of choice will do you especially proud."

I run six fething five man squads of Intercessors. Six.

Honestly there’s no reason the Crimson Fists need to run in small squads in the fluff. If a company is at half strength, it doesn’t matter if they field 5 squads of 10 or 10 squads of 5. Plus it’s been a few hundred years by now. The chapter shouldn’t be facing a numbers issue beyond the norms for any chapter.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

Were you really only using characters and 3 model units?

No vehicles? No bigger units to maximize the detachment strats? Characters didn't even need it.

I'd say it's a nerf if you were playing a weird janky list, but for everyone else it's a buff. Bigger squads of Hellblasters for the strats, or even Veteran Intercessors aren't dropping the tactic and are actually an option now. Plus an extra hit for every bolt shot? All of this on vehicles?

Yeah, you're peddling some crazy bs if this is a "substantial nerf". It's way better now.

You mean playing to the fluff of the Chapter by running smaller units? How dare I do something so heinous?! Read the frickin' article.

"To make the most of this powerful Chapter Tactic, fielding multiple small units of Crimson Fists is the way to go. Units of five Intercessors equipped with your bolt rifle of choice will do you especially proud."

I run six fething five man squads of Intercessors. Six.

which means it'll be a benifical chapter tactic agaisnt hoard armies partiuclarly those that have to take squads of 10 or more. such as guard, Tyranids (speaking 'nid hoard armies specificly here) and Orks.. I assume Orks can't take 5 man Boyz squads?

it does mean the advantage dissappers after you inflict casualites but crimson fists are hardly alone in that

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
maybe let reivers upgrade their bolt pistols to hand flamers. it might give them an added close range punch and flamers are a pretty obvious idea for a terror weapon

Naw, just give them Reiver Combat Knives (-1 AP) and increase the range of their shock grenades. Done and done. Also, give the Phobos Characters Reiver Combat Knives.

Sold!

BrianDavion wrote:

it does mean the advantage dissappers after you inflict casualites but crimson fists are hardly alone in that

What CT or benefits disappear when you inflict casualties?

honest question as last i recall most peoples power stay on no matter how good or bad you are doing.

 Desubot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

it does mean the advantage dissappers after you inflict casualites but crimson fists are hardly alone in that

What CT or benefits disappear when you inflict casualties?

honest question as last i recall most peoples power stay on no matter how good or bad you are doing.

when resolving an attack against a unit with at least 5 more units.

thus if I inflict casualties and your unit is now 6 strong...

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

it does mean the advantage dissappers after you inflict casualites but crimson fists are hardly alone in that

What CT or benefits disappear when you inflict casualties?

honest question as last i recall most peoples power stay on no matter how good or bad you are doing.

when resolving an attack against a unit with at least 5 more units.

thus if I inflict casualties and your unit is now 6 strong...

Did i read what you said wrong? i though you meant other chapters tactics get turned off once they start inflicting casualties.

"it does mean the advantage dissappers after you inflict casualites but crimson fists are hardly alone in that "

The only other powers i know that technically get turned off is funny enough the imperial fists whom ignore cover is worthless when the opponent willfully disregards cover to just move up.

Which makes Imperial Fists better by default as they mess with the opponent's deployment UNLESS they're Daemons.

It also Means Imperial fists are best fighting against a dug in foe. ya know a siege situation.

BrianDavion wrote:
It also Means Imperial fists are best fighting against a dug in foe. ya know a siege situation.

.... i know. the question was what other factions CT gets turned off for doing good in the game? well besides literally tabling the enemy.

granted just being able to deny a tactical option to an enemy is a powerful tool.

So i guess crimson fists just suck then right?

the only faction to get punished for doing good or only gets their benefits against specific armies or when they are losing?

 Desubot wrote:
So i guess crimson fists just suck then right?

the only faction to get punished for doing good or only gets their benefits against specific armies or when they are losing?

I don't think so, they're a solid army but they are very much designed to hoard clear.

Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
So i guess crimson fists just suck then right?

the only faction to get punished for doing good or only gets their benefits against specific armies or when they are losing?

I don't think so, they're a solid army but they are very much designed to hoard clear.

They still get DakkaDakkaDakkav2Improved for the times when they dont have a 2+ bs / ws.
You're just being picky for the sake of being picky.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

It is certainly amazing against hordes of daemons and orks. Which kinda makes sense because Crimson fist hate orks.

i want to see the full list of chapter tactics you can choose, I would love to see the rest of the tactics and what negatives you have to take.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

Crimson fists: sometimes maybe I get +1 to BS and +1 to WS
Imperial Fist: sometimes maybe I get +1 to AP

Honestly, these chapter tactics marines are getting are better than every other faction trait out there.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

Crimson fists: sometimes maybe I get +1 to BS and +1 to WS
Imperial Fist: sometimes maybe I get +1 to AP

Honestly, these chapter tactics marines are getting are better than every other faction trait out there.

it can be up to +2 in Imperial fists case, if they're shooting at opponents with camo cloaks

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Do people here only play against minimum squad size terminators or something?

Crimson fists is flat out amazing lmao.
2+ to hit rerolling 1's and generating an extra AUTO!! hit on 6?

Its not as good as imperial first is what we are saying I think.

Bingo. That is what I said in my original post regarding this. And let's not even pretend they are remotely in the same ballpark as Iron Hands. But whatever. I play Crimson Fists and will continue to do so, gakky Chapter Tactics be damned.

Nothing is - it is literally 3 solid traits that would be good on their own (except half for degrading would be not great on it's own - but as icing on the cake? come on)