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 skchsan wrote:
Why do I get the feeling the excerpt If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update! means the said chapters will only get the Shock Assault rules updated and no enhanced chapter tactics yet...

Probably. But now I can proxy BA as marine units easily.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Spoiler:

So uh, Long Range Marksmen means you can get 12 inch flamers.

11", but still...good catch...

Aggressors, HO!

...9" Shock Grenades. So close. So close, and yet so far.

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Danger Close means too close to friendly units, so it's even more not-quite-the-right-word.

I think a Pod permitting Deep Strikes up close to the enemy would be a fine enough quality for it to have at it's current cost, but not at 35 points.

at 35 points im having 7th flashbacks. i mean honestly though the drop pod does have problems but 35 points..

You can deep strike units for a CP in this game. The ability to deepstrike is worth between 10-20 points at max.

You can deep strike a unit for a CP in this game, for some factions. Or two for 3 CP. But you can't DS multiple units at 1CP each.

Sure you can. Cloudstrike, screaming jets, the Deathwatch teleport thing. And that's just off the top of my head.

Drager wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Danger Close means too close to friendly units, so it's even more not-quite-the-right-word.

I think a Pod permitting Deep Strikes up close to the enemy would be a fine enough quality for it to have at it's current cost, but not at 35 points.

at 35 points im having 7th flashbacks. i mean honestly though the drop pod does have problems but 35 points..

You can deep strike units for a CP in this game. The ability to deepstrike is worth between 10-20 points at max.

You can deep strike a unit for a CP in this game, for some factions. Or two for 3 CP. But you can't DS multiple units at 1CP each.

Sure you can. Cloudstrike, screaming jets, the Deathwatch teleport thing. And that's just off the top of my head.

Space Wolves outflank.

Slightly on a side note - anyone notice how small the White Scar pictured on the supplement's eyes are? The eyes are almost implied, and not explicitly drawn out. That't not racist at all.

Amid all the excitement (and as a Vanilla Marine player I'm really excited), someone should take a step back and point out that between all of this, CMS v2, traitor knights, and SoB on the horizon, GW is going to have a riot on their hands if 2020 isn't 'The Year of the Xenos'.

 skchsan wrote:
Slightly on a side note - anyone notice how small the White Scar pictured on the supplement's eyes are? The eyes are almost implied, and not explicitly drawn out. That't not racist at all.

Not that much smaller than the Ultramarines eyes. God forbid that they are based off of Mongolians who do actually have different shaped eyes than Caucasian people.

Please don't take this thread in this direction

The Newman wrote:
Amid all the excitement (and as a Vanilla Marine player I'm really excited), someone should take a step back and point out that between all of this, CMS v2, traitor knights, and SoB on the horizon, GW is going to have a riot on their hands if 2020 isn't 'The Year of the Xenos'.

*Laughs in plastic Aspect Warrior*

Oh you sweet summer child.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Spoiler:

So uh, Long Range Marksmen means you can get 12 inch flamers.

11", but still...good catch...

Aggressors, HO!

Even the bolter aggressors would be really good with an extra 3 inches, 21" in a weird range where most thing will have to move closer to do more damage to you but not in one turn, giving the agressors time to set up and agress over people's faces. Inceptors would get a similar advantage, although that would depend more on how close you want to get to if you want to use those melee stats/ability.

Weapons that are more useful at half range would also benefit. It wouldn't exactly set the world on fire for meltas, but having that extra inch and a half for plasma double tap can mean forcing board control from your enemies or causing a charge to fail. If the auto bolt rifle is buffed (safe to assume), combining that with Bolter Fusillades and the strat that lets you auto hit at half range means you can have a very mobile marine army while still keeping out of a gunline's full power range.

There's of course the obvious advantage of keeping out of other people's range at all with longer ranged weapons than them. It's a very small ability that can be combined with other things which can open up some good tactical play.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Spoiler:

So uh, Long Range Marksmen means you can get 12 inch flamers.

11", but still...good catch...

Aggressors, HO!

Even the bolter aggressors would be really good with an extra 3 inches, 21" in a weird range where most thing will have to move closer to do more damage to you but not in one turn, giving the agressors time to set up and agress over people's faces. Inceptors would get a similar advantage, although that would depend more on how close you want to get to if you want to use those melee stats/ability.

Weapons that are more useful at half range would also benefit. It wouldn't exactly set the world on fire for meltas, but having that extra inch and a half for plasma double tap can mean forcing board control from your enemies or causing a charge to fail. If the auto bolt rifle is buffed (safe to assume), combining that with Bolter Fusillades and the strat that lets you auto hit at half range means you can have a very mobile marine army while still keeping out of a gunline's full power range.

There's of course the obvious advantage of keeping out of other people's range at all with longer ranged weapons than them. It's a very small ability that can be combined with other things which can open up some good tactical play.

Bonus range with a defensive buff of some kind will be really helpful for almost every marine unit. From the ones we have seen - Counts as in cover will be really good. 6+ FNP would be better I think but we will see.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Spoiler:

So uh, Long Range Marksmen means you can get 12 inch flamers.

11", but still...good catch...

Aggressors, HO!

Flamers in overwatch!

The Newman wrote:
Amid all the excitement (and as a Vanilla Marine player I'm really excited), someone should take a step back and point out that between all of this, CMS v2, traitor knights, and SoB on the horizon, GW is going to have a riot on their hands if 2020 isn't 'The Year of the Xenos'.

40k has always been about the Imperium. Not much really to riot about as obviously GW makes money off promoting the most important faction in the game, in terms of narrative, sales, IP and history.

 Kirasu wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Amid all the excitement (and as a Vanilla Marine player I'm really excited), someone should take a step back and point out that between all of this, CMS v2, traitor knights, and SoB on the horizon, GW is going to have a riot on their hands if 2020 isn't 'The Year of the Xenos'.

40k has always been about the Imperium. Not much really to riot about as obviously GW makes money off promoting the most important faction in the game, in terms of narrative, sales, IP and history.

I didn't say it would be a big riot.

As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

What nerf though? Aren't you getting extra shots AND having all of the CT apply to your vehicles, too?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.

It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.

The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ...

Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better

-

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.

It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.

Yeah it is a flat bummer compared to imperial fist IMO which is just flat better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ...

Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better

-

I like this idea best. If generic characters end up being more customizable its isn't even an issue. Generally the special characters for marines are just so much better than generics. I like the +3 range tactic with always counter in cover. Makes a lot of units better.

nekooni wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

What nerf though? Aren't you getting extra shots AND having all of the CT apply to your vehicles, too?

Its very slightly a nerf for 3 man and Individual Models. But its a buff to 10 Man units as now they get the bonus vs Units with 5 models more than them rather than double.

Old is +1 to Hit vs Double or More
New is +1 to Hit vs 5 or More

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.

It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.

The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.

I was just thinking dakka dakka bolters is quite good and you still have the chance to hit on 2's.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.

It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.

The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.

Ah. Yeah, so there's a small part that's worse than before, but you're still getting extra hits and ALL your vehicles now have CT. Can't really call that a nerf to the chapter, honestly. As long as you're using a good amount of bolters you should be way better off now. And if you don't, why are you playing Crimson Fists?

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ...

Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better

-

I've got a personal theory that the first founding chapters will be decent but slightly weaker then DIY chapters until you start to apply stuff from their supplements,

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

I fail to see how the Crimson Fist CT is a nerf. Previously, you got the +1 to hit when attacking units with double the amount of models than your own, and now is 5+ models than your own. With a ten man marine squad, that goes from +1 against 20 or more models, vs 15+. That's actually a buff. At five man squads, it's the same at 10 vs 10. Vehicles already counted as 5 models (well, dreadnoughts, since vehicles didn't have chapter tactics until now), so vehicles would still only get +1 against units 10 or more. It only becomes less at units smaller that five, and even then you're still talking about ir only become a major problem with characters (going from 2 to 6). And this while also getting bolter drill added in, and now applies to all vehicles rather than just dreadnought.

If there's a nerf there, I'm failing to see it.

nekooni wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.

It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.

The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.

Ah. Yeah, so there's a small part that's worse than before, but you're still getting extra hits and ALL your vehicles now have CT. Can't really call that a nerf to the chapter, honestly. As long as you're using a good amount of bolters you should be way better off now. And if you don't, why are you playing Crimson Fists?

lol. I have very few units that DON'T have bolt weapons (a squad of Hellblasters and a squad of Lascannon Devs is all that comes to mind). But I would rather they just left the original tactic alone and added the bolt weapon rider like they did with the Imperial Fists. And very few vehicles will actually benefit from this tactic compared to Imperial Fists. Any vehicle with the new tactic requires an enemy squad of 10 or more to even function. Kill one model, and you no longer benefit.

And the other thing is, with the old tactic, the Crimson Fists tactic worked as the Crimson Fists became more outnumbered, which requires more losses to trigger now, as well as characters used to benefit much better.

Oh well, I guess I can wait for the Imperial Fists supplement and hope for the best. Maybe hope for Primaris Pedro Kantor.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ...

Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better

-

I've got a personal theory that the first founding chapters will be decent but slightly weaker then DIY chapters until you start to apply stuff from their supplements,

Are we getting ultras and white scars right off the bat with the codex?

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ...

Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better

-

I've got a personal theory that the first founding chapters will be decent but slightly weaker then DIY chapters until you start to apply stuff from their supplements,

Are we getting ultras and white scars right off the bat with the codex?

Yes. They come out on the same day as the codex.

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ...

Yeah, my sons play UMs and Salamanders respectively. I may try to convince them to play a "successor" so they can keep an aspect of the First founding chapter that they like, but add a successor trait that makes their army better

-

I've got a personal theory that the first founding chapters will be decent but slightly weaker then DIY chapters until you start to apply stuff from their supplements,

Are we getting ultras and white scars right off the bat with the codex?

we are yes. I'm hoping to snag both of them, fluff bunny that I am

nekooni wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As a Crimson Fists player on the receiving end of a substantial nerf, I am pretty irritated about some of big boosts other chapters received. That and Successor Tactics will likely outpace my army. But whatever, GW.

You think it's a nerf? You get dakka dakka bolters and lots of units will be hitting on 2's. I think it's cool. Nothing wrong with using successor tactics ether ... just no perdro in that case.

It is worse than the White Dwarf tactic, even with the added bonus to bolt weapons. And I use Pedro, so no Successor Tactics.

The way the bonus is obtained is different. It used to be at 2x the models, not the models+5. This means Characters and smaller squads got nerfed.

Ah. Yeah, so there's a small part that's worse than before, but you're still getting extra hits and ALL your vehicles now have CT. Can't really call that a nerf to the chapter, honestly. As long as you're using a good amount of bolters you should be way better off now. And if you don't, why are you playing Crimson Fists?

Well

1) it doesn't really effect 5man groups but as they diminish the rate of return diminishes as well so straight bumber, you will need to make the best of your attack to make any real effect. and they generally can so not that big of a deal. especially with a hot alpha strike sternguard unit.
2) Vehicles having the CT is great and all but it only really effects an extremely small amount of vehicles and forget vehicle squads as you will never get the bonus. it really only effects dakka boats like the raven or lrc which is nice but not really that great. you dont really want to be burning all your anti tank into a 10 man squad of imperial guards. and not many people run 10 man terminator squads no?
3) bolters are cool and it will be nice in some cases but worthless in others. its kind of a wash.
4) why would you ever ask why some one plays a specific faction.

All in all its a nerf not horrably game breaking but it is a straight nerf.

3 man agressor squads bonus cuts off at 8 vs with 2x mod would of been 6, single HQ model would of been 2 but instead now is 6. no way around that.

So if they fixed stalker bolt rifles, I wonder if they changed auto bolt rifles. I hope they made it more of a choice. I'll admit I'm kinda thinking about taking a squad with stalkers now. Granted that's only for the veteran stratagem... Never mind I talked myself out of it, I'm just glad they're trying to fix stuff