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Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.

If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.

Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...

I kind of like the change to the Raven Guard and hope the same is applied to Alpha Legion. My one concerne is the same as any trait that gives out cover, the second you come across someone playing Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists or Flayed Skull you're trait becomes worthless.

I'd say Stugies VIII and Alaitoc should get the same as well but it clashes with Shroud Psalm for Stygies and Alaitoc's defining trait is having the largest population of any Craftworld and disciplined adherance to the Path system, not stealth.

That Iron Hand one is tempting. With the change to the RG one, 6+++ compares pretty well. Really only thing I don’t like with it is that it can’t stack with a Venerable Dreadnought’s innate fnp (right?). Seems a little weird to me that a chapter like Iron Hands wouldn’t want to run Venerables.

Reemule wrote:
Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.

If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.

Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...

Much better profile now.

Leadership isn't important though. Get real. Eldar can already do that nonsense. Silly gimicks doesn't win games. Not having worthless stats does help though.

...Also, the note for the UM one is kinda odd to me. Sure, it’s good someone at GW noticed a Redeemer is even worse than before without the ability to fallback and fire. But that’s suppose to be a Salamander and BA favored tank, right? Why don’t those chapters have a usable assault range tank? Hopefully they have a strat to allow fall back and shoot with -1 or something.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.

If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.

Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...

Much better profile now.

Leadership isn't important though. Get real. Eldar can already do that nonsense. Silly gimicks doesn't win games. Not having worthless stats does help though.

I do agree that the LD stat isn't being used to its full potential. Someone threw out the idea of it affecting how you control objectives which I liked.

bort wrote:
...Also, the note for the UM one is kinda odd to me. Sure, it’s good someone at GW noticed a Redeemer is even worse than before without the ability to fallback and fire. But that’s suppose to be a Salamander and BA favored tank, right? Why don’t those chapters have a usable assault range tank? Hopefully they have a strat to allow fall back and shoot with -1 or something.

It's someone's lame attempt to make the trait which hasn't changed from it exsisting codex wording seem relevant when compaired to the Others which are in some cases 3 traits rolled into 1

Iron hands now has
Tau spet Trait over watch (Best Tau sept)
House hawkshroud trait (second or third best Knights house)
And a 6+ FNP

If the Ravenguard change goes game wide expect Ignore cover to be a big trait till everyone gives up on the old -1 to hit lists.

Really Leadership matters in 8th edition you have to be having a laugh seriously.

 Imateria wrote:
I kind of like the change to the Raven Guard and hope the same is applied to Alpha Legion. My one concerne is the same as any trait that gives out cover, the second you come across someone playing Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists or Flayed Skull you're trait becomes worthless.

I'd say Stugies VIII and Alaitoc should get the same as well but it clashes with Shroud Psalm for Stygies and Alaitoc's defining trait is having the largest population of any Craftworld and disciplined adherance to the Path system, not stealth.

I think its a be careful what you wish for situation.

People have been constantly agitating to make it count as cover rather than be -1 to hit. Okay - but with 3+ saves normally, I don't think you are worse off until you are facing AP3 shots.

Against bolters:
Old:
1/2*1/2*1/3.=1/12
New:
2/3*1/2*1/6=1/18.

Against Heavy Bolter:
Old:
1/2*2/3*1/2=1/6.
New:
2/3*2/3*1/3=4/27.

A Krak missile or something with AP-2.
Old:
1/2*5/6*2/3=5/18
New:
2/3*5/6*1/2=5/18

There is a nerf that things like IW/IF/flayed skull exist (along with various guns/upgrades that ignore cover) - which might see more play if this rule becomes universal. There is also a nerf (and this one might be more realistic) in that you can't stack being in cover from say prepared positions with the -1 to hit.

The numbers may look different on say Eldar/Stygies where 3+ armour isn't universal. (Although it can still be common enough versus the things you can actually shoot at.)

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.

If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.

Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...

Much better profile now.

Leadership isn't important though. Get real. Eldar can already do that nonsense. Silly gimicks doesn't win games. Not having worthless stats does help though.

People weren't saying that with the old GSC death beam.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Also, you never know, Leadership might turn out to be more important in the future.

If the game is changed so Full squads are best again. Or if it one of the new powers is Purge Soul from the GK list for Marines.

Please let it be that last one. Its a Ultramarine Librarian with a Banner close, so LD 11, and he rolled a 6. Your a termiguant with LD 4, and a Riever within 3 inches and rolled a 1. Take 13 Mortals to that unit bug player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one paid attention toe the real winner, Stalker Bolt Rifles...

Much better profile now.

Leadership isn't important though. Get real. Eldar can already do that nonsense. Silly gimicks doesn't win games. Not having worthless stats does help though.

People weren't saying that with the old GSC death beam.

Quote the one broken combo that made the stat matter oh wait it really didn't given they had the abilities to achieve an automatic outclass by 6 points anyway in a ld 10 model.
So on a roll of a 6 my HQ'S don't loose a wound like they FAQ'D it to for everyone.

I was a little disappointed by the Ultramarine CT being un changed, they should have at least taken off the -1 to hit.

But, I suppose I'll wait for the supplement before being too sad.

Wasn't there a rumor about the "-1 to hit rules if at more than 12" away" changing to "in cover if at more than 12" away" ? I guess we're finally seeing the early signs of that then.

Kind of wish they would have done that in an Errata instead of new codices. There's a lot of armies that have that gimmick.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wasn't there a rumor about the "-1 to hit rules if at more than 12" away" changing to "in cover if at more than 12" away" ? I guess we're finally seeing the early signs of that then.

Kind of wish they would have done that in an Errata instead of new codices. There's a lot of armies that have that gimmick.

That was only conjecture because of later on rules.

UM vehicles able to fire after falling back is $$$. My Land Raiders might actually see some combat.

Also, Salamanders ignoring the save mod from AP -1 is awesome.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wasn't there a rumor about the "-1 to hit rules if at more than 12" away" changing to "in cover if at more than 12" away" ? I guess we're finally seeing the early signs of that then.

Kind of wish they would have done that in an Errata instead of new codices. There's a lot of armies that have that gimmick.

It's much the same now. A lot of times a +1 armor is equal to a -1 to hit. Sometimes it's better.

The place in which it's at it's best is on an army with near-universal Sv 3+....

 Insectum7 wrote:
UM vehicles able to fire after falling back is $$$. My Land Raiders might actually see some combat.

Also, Salamanders ignoring the save mod from AP -1 is awesome.

The only unit it really benifits is a LR. Even then - a repulsor can fall back and shoot already and if it is iron hands it's more survivable and close to being unchargeable on top ofignoring degrading profile and having more firepower.

 Insectum7 wrote:
UM vehicles able to fire after falling back is $$$. My Land Raiders might actually see some combat.

Also, Salamanders ignoring the save mod from AP -1 is awesome.

Or you could have a 6+ FNP repulsor that overwatches on 5+ and counts as double it's wounds for damage.
And can fallback and shoot at full BS anyway.
Unlike Ultra repulsors which overwatch on 6+ and fall back and shoot at -1.

As a person that does not own any flying Primaris vehicles, and is not looking to own any Primaris flying vehicles, it's Land Raiders and Razorbacks all day every day for me.

As of right now the Ultramarines have by far the worst chapter tactic, and it actively nerfs some of the units in the book. Terrible.

Salamanders and Iron Hands are incredible. Guilliman does not make up for the shortfall.

 Insectum7 wrote:
As a person that does not own any flying Primaris vehicles, and is not looking to own any Primaris flying vehicles, it's Land Raiders and Razorbacks all day every day for me.

depending upon your play group Blue Ravens might be better as 2+ in cover vehicals would be painful to a lot of the low AP multi damage weapons.

The only Improvement I'm looking for now involves Drop Pods.

3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.

400 points less and more durable.

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
As a person that does not own any flying Primaris vehicles, and is not looking to own any Primaris flying vehicles, it's Land Raiders and Razorbacks all day every day for me.

depending upon your play group Blue Ravens might be better as 2+ in cover vehicals would be painful to a lot of the low AP multi damage weapons.

Potentially, although I'm comfotable popping the defensive stratagem for first turn if I have to.

 Ishagu wrote:
3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.

400 points less and more durable.

That's GW balance for you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
As a person that does not own any flying Primaris vehicles, and is not looking to own any Primaris flying vehicles, it's Land Raiders and Razorbacks all day every day for me.

depending upon your play group Blue Ravens might be better as 2+ in cover vehicals would be painful to a lot of the low AP multi damage weapons.

Potentially, although I'm comfotable popping the defensive stratagem for first turn if I have to.

Or go Iron hands for Tau sept trait (best Tau trait) and Hawkshroud Trait (2/3 best Knight Trait) with a bonus 6+++ for the Lolz.

Because who wouldn't want to fight against an army stacking one of the best triats with a mid teir trait and a third trait.

^yeah, dunno. Lots of interesting possibilities come out of many of the traits. It's nice I have a custom paint scheme.

Plus, is this stuff potentially going to stack with chapter customization? Is chapter customization design-your-own-traits?

Lots of unknowns.

 Ishagu wrote:
As of right now the Ultramarines have by far the worst chapter tactic, and it actively nerfs some of the units in the book. Terrible.

Salamanders and Iron Hands are incredible. Guilliman does not make up for the shortfall.

well Ultramarines also gotta factor in tiggy, calgar, every other special char etc keep in mind we have no idea what the new stratigiums will be, if the new SM strats are godly good, then gulliman and calgar will have an additional benifit .

 Ishagu wrote:
3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.

400 points less and more durable.

To what targets? Ya know, before you throw a single Gaunt at them and they can't shoot anymore?

Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(

Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.

400 points less and more durable.

To what targets? Ya know, before you throw a single Gaunt at them and they can't shoot anymore?

To the targets they are designed to kill. The ones that matter.

Saving that 400 points gives you enough for two Guard battalions you can use to screen and an extra unit on top. Now you see my point?

Suddenly my Astartes units are getting free re rolls, more durability against a common AP value, and an extra 64 bodies to protect them, not to mention 10 CP.