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White scars have easy first turn charges now, and are the best faction for jetpacks.
Don't underestimate them.
Those who play kraken nids know fully well just how strong it is to fall back and charge with flying units. There is nothing safe in the opponent's field.
Scout bikes advancing 20", shooting shotguns and then charging is a decent first move against screens. If primaris ever get hoverbikes, they become the best chapter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, whitescar multimelta attack bike squads are fun. 50 points for a 4W model which is in short range of melta turn 1 without penalties.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/06 05:25:34
Reemule wrote: I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.
Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.
Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders. In order for improved overwatch to really pay out, you need to be able to destroy the unit before your next movement phase otherwise, it's still your final futile defiance before your tank becomes an expensive paperweight. Tau works because they can fire a big bucket of stuff in support of the unit being charged to wipe out somebody in overwatch.
The Raven Guard change is almost certainly a nerf, but 2+ armorsaves for all tanks isn't unwelcome.
I think Salamanders looks very good universally, and Crimsfists looks a little niche but also fairly good.
You forgot there were three parts to that Tactic. Iron Hands are easily going to be better than Salamanders.
Marines weren't dying that much to AP-1 before anyway.
The Valhalla or Mordian bonuses aren't good on their own, I don't know why they'd be good glued together since they don't build on each other or anything. Maybe something from Valhalla building with the 6+++, but that seems pretty edge case making a difference.
I think Salamanders will blow Iron Hands away. Re-rolling a to-hit and to wound is really good for Marine armor, almost certainly better than a 5+ overwatch and the Valhallan ability. The AP1 ignoring is basically pointless.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
It wasn't a good tactic the first time and it isn't a good ability now. The negating of AP-1 is actually a better ability but still less than appealing compared to a 6+++.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
You are forgetting that librarians and chaplains exist too, and that both will receive now mambo jumbos.
bort wrote: That Iron Hand one is tempting. With the change to the RG one, 6+++ compares pretty well. Really only thing I don’t like with it is that it can’t stack with a Venerable Dreadnought’s innate fnp (right?). Seems a little weird to me that a chapter like Iron Hands wouldn’t want to run Venerables.
Yeah, it doesn't work with the vehicles you'd think of. It does it for the wound chart vehicles - Rhino Chassis, LR Chassis, and Repulsor Chassis. They don't drop out of the top tier until they're at the bottom tier.
If I were a FOTM player, I'd be looking at MSU Razorback (or Intercessor Impulso depending on it's datasheet) spam IH to see if they just resurrected that one.
Iron Hands could also be the default choice for a Space Marine Air Force. They Flyer tiers aren't quite the same ratio, but only off by 1 wound
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wasn't there a rumor about the "-1 to hit rules if at more than 12" away" changing to "in cover if at more than 12" away" ? I guess we're finally seeing the early signs of that then.
Kind of wish they would have done that in an Errata instead of new codices. There's a lot of armies that have that gimmick.
It's much the same now. A lot of times a +1 armor is equal to a -1 to hit. Sometimes it's better.
Do it 4+'s across the board for easy math. 4 to hit, 4 to wound, 4 to save
Baseline 4+'s. 10 shots, 5 hit, 2.5 wound. 1.25 save.
-1 to hit : 10 shots 4 hit, 2 wound 1 save
+1 to Save 10 shots 5 hit 2.5 wound 1.67 save
The 2+ Save isn't going to be very impressed though, sorry Termies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/06 07:26:35
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
I dont understand not moving your capt/lt with the troops. I mean, I get why camping is a thing and use it sometimes but not going in planning on doing it.
I like the Fists buff. Extra hits on 6s with bolters syncs really nicely with their specialist Dakka Centurions and 10-man vet intercessor squads, which were already the two best units for IF in my opinion.
Ishagu wrote: 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
400 points less and more durable.
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
How is rerolling one miss almost identical to rerolling all misses and all failed wounds?
I get that you'll often not get more than 1 miss anyway (out of 4 hit rolls for a quad las Predator), so on the hit roll it is not far off Guilliman (though it is still a bit behind). But not getting the re-roll wounds is massive, it's a huge part of Guilliman's value.
I might be missing something here, so please share your maths.
I think it's per unit.. 3 Predators are 3 units. So all three Pred's get to reroll a single miss, and a single whiff (failed wound) per turn. BS 3+ with four shots (Two LC sponsons, and TLLC Turret) is only going to average less than a miss and less than a whiff per turn. It's not exact. Between dice having no memory (i.e. you will eventually miss/whiff twice on one unit in one turn and Guilliman still covers the all 1's roll) and diminishing stats on the wound chart, it will eventually work out in Guilliman's favor, but it's going to take a long long statistical time.
They already had that ability through Captains and Lts they were already camping nearby.
which means less reliance on camping out near captains and Lts which allows for a more mobile focus on board control. I mean how many captains and Lts does your average list have?
Depends the list. However the main codex doesn't have a Slamguinus equivalent so what board control are your HQ units really doing when in the back, especially when our other HQ choices aren't good to choose anyway? The answer is NONE.
The camping was implied in the first place because of this and the characters are unlikely to die from Snipers or some garbage like that.
Sooooooooo long story short, if the tactic wasn't good in the first place, and the defensive trait isn't as good as the Raven Guard or Iron Hands, then why is it any good now? It isn't. At least it isn't as bad as Crimson Fists or Blood Ravens but it's probably bottom 3.
I dont understand not moving your capt/lt with the troops. I mean, I get why camping is a thing and use it sometimes but not going in planning on doing it.
how many captains and Lts does a list on average have? how many infantry squads do you have? having the freedom to move that tac squad with a lascanon elsewhere without losing a re-roll on the lascanon is a handy bit of tactical flexability. not nesscarily god tier no but it's certainly got uses
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
McGibs wrote: Salamanders can also reroll one failed wound per unit.
Ah, apologies.
However it is still a fair bit behind Guilliman when you factor in the chance of two or more failed hit rolls and two or more failed wound rolls.
Maybe not 400 points difference, but it would be dishonest to say the damage throughput would be very close.
No, he's right, it would be. You're talking four shots per turn on a BS of 3. 1/3 of shots miss, and you have four shots - you''re missing one and a third shots per turn, reroll the one miss, you're missing a half a shot per turn after reroll(s) from the Chapter Tactic. They also have the any whiff not 1 to whiff from Guilliman/Lieutenant, on a Lascannon likely to also be wounding on 3+. So you're missing on half a shot per turn, and whiffing on half of 3.5 shots per turn. That's basically the same thing Guilliman does (statistically) because the unit isn't getting much more in the miss/whiff column than it already has rerolls for. The rate Guilliman is going to pull away from this Chapter tactic is the rate at which you're going to roll more than one miss And statistically that's pretty rare. Guilliman DOES come out on top, but it take a LONG time to get there. Turn 7 isn't even in the same galaxy as getting there.
Crazyterran wrote: Just sad they are Primarisifying Tiggy - how am I going to use my Mk4 31k version of him now? :(
Also: they shouldn't have to account for Special Characters when making Chapter Tactics, any extra benefit should be rolled into the character's cost. I mean, IH are about to get a new character that's a Primaris Marine, so presumably will be good!
I agree 100% special characters should not be a factor because it inevitably screws over tim who doesn't use them but just likes painting marines blue.
but it's possiable, as I said that ultramarines real strength will be in their stratigiums. if you look at the current codex I'd argue that seems to be the way GW is thinking with ultramarines, in addition to calgar and gulliman giving extra CPs if they're your warlord, and the UM warlord trait... regens CPs. so if the Ultramarines CT is weak but is counter balanced by some AMAZING stratigiums.. I could see them still being compeitive.
Unless Ultramarines real strength is in their stratagems, and in raking in the CP to power them like candy on Halloween, that's not going to help much.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/06 07:46:59
Ishagu wrote: 3 Salamander Quad Las Predators have almost identical efficiency to 3 Ultramarines Predators WITH Guilliman, but also ignore the ap-1 of weapons that target them.
400 points less and more durable.
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
How is rerolling one miss almost identical to rerolling all misses and all failed wounds?
I get that you'll often not get more than 1 miss anyway (out of 4 hit rolls for a quad las Predator), so on the hit roll it is not far off Guilliman (though it is still a bit behind). But not getting the re-roll wounds is massive, it's a huge part of Guilliman's value.
I might be missing something here, so please share your maths.
I think it's per unit.. 3 Predators are 3 units. So all three Pred's get to reroll a single miss, and a single whiff (failed wound) per turn. BS 3+ with four shots (Two LC sponsons, and TLLC Turret) is only going to average less than a miss and less than a whiff per turn. It's not exact. Between dice having no memory (i.e. you will eventually miss/whiff twice on one unit in one turn and Guilliman still covers the all 1's roll) and diminishing stats on the wound chart, it will eventually work out in Guilliman's favor, but it's going to take a long long statistical time.
Just based on the hit roll, Salamanders is a 20% damage increase (for a unit with 4 shots like a lad Pred), Guilliman is 33%.
Now that might seem small for 400 points but there's several other factors you need to bare in mind:
1.
The more shots a unit has, the further ahead Guilliman pulls. If you do it for a Dakka Repulsor the difference is MASSIVE. A lad Pred is basically best case scenario.
2.
This is exponentially compounded when you also take into account wounding. It gets a fair bit more complex to calculate if you want to do average damage increase factoring in a single re-roll for both hits and wounds, but that difference on the hit roll is compounded when you add in the wound roll.
3.
The worse your chance of wounding the better Guilliman is (because you're getting more use of all the rerolls). So a las Pred again is likely wounding its intended target on 3s, but if you are attacking with something that requires a wound roll of 4s or 5s then again Guilliman just gets better.
So yeah, all in all Guilliman is quite a bit superior to Salamanders traits. In the ideal situation, Salamanders provide about half the buff Guilliman does. But Guilliman pull ahead quite substantially in less ideal situations for Salamanders.
Is it worth 400pts? Jury is still out. But there is a big difference.
QUESTION: Do raven guard have -1 from 12 inch away or you just need to be on terrain.
IF RG is -1 to hit only when on terrain it can be really good for assault units.
well no if you take Gulliman for a warlord trait you're an idiot. (considering you can get the warlord trait for a 100 point captain instead) Gulliman's problem is he offers a LOT to an army but not all at once, he offers amazing support to a gunline yes, but he's ALSO a melee powerhouse. etc. part of me wonders if, especially in light of shock assault he might be better off rushing up the board with a selection of space marine units that are geared for melee.
Almost nobody is better suited to run up the board for melee. They're still correcting from removing Charge/Two Weapon/etc bonuses to melee. I don't know what the ratio of CCW rounds a melee unit should be able to get in vs the number of rounds a shooting unit should be able to shoot in - But I think we can all agree that generally speaking the shooting unit gets to shoot a lot more than a fighting unit gets to fight. That's why they had so many +1A bonuses. To make up for the turns the fighting units had to stand around picking their noses between fights.
I'm liking the new Raven Guard tactics. From an opponent's perspective that is. I just wish that they FAQ the same wording to all -1 blanket hit modifier factions SOON. I'm looking at you Alaitoc Eldar...
Now Gman with a choice of Warlord traits might be worth the terrible chapter tactic.
Gman with ALL the Warlord traits would probably be over the top. But imagine if Gman got two, this one, and a Choose one. Primarchs are supposed to be superhuman at all things, and unsurpassed in their own specialty. It makes sense each Primarch would have a Trait they're defined for being predelicted to, and be able to choose another one they're consciously focusing on.
Weazel wrote: I'm liking the new Raven Guard tactics. From an opponent's perspective that is. I just wish that they FAQ the same wording to all -1 blanket hit modifier factions SOON. I'm looking at you Alaitoc Eldar...
Probably not, they will need to release new CWE codex for that.
Ishagu wrote: As of right now the Ultramarines have by far the worst chapter tactic, and it actively nerfs some of the units in the book. Terrible.
Nothing wrong with it, if you know how to use your units. Of course, if you are an inexperienced and naive player that doesn't know how to properly utilise it, you might think it is worthless.
Am I doing this right?
Almost - you forgot to add how much time you spend playing the top tier tournaments.
Marin wrote: QUESTION: Do raven guard have -1 from 12 inch away or you just need to be on terrain.
IF RG is -1 to hit only when on terrain it can be really good for assault units.
only when on terrain, so when you dig in, into cover on ravenguard you've got +2 to your armor bonus and a -1 to hit you. shooting ravenguard intercessors out of a ruin is going to be a pain in the ass.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I still find it hillarious that Chaos just got an update, that could've easily allready got that at the same time as the regular marines.
Albeit i am sure GW will release a book called Legions of chaos, a supplement, with all the updated stuff in it, after you allready probably have bought Codex 2.0....
Feth me.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I think the part that irks me is the unique Ork rule being handed out to marines.
I see the problem. You thought it was a unique ork rule. Very few rules are truly unique. GW recycles more than the Sierra Club. They give them all unique names, but very few rules, or parts of rules, can't be found in someone else's book too.
Marin wrote: QUESTION: Do raven guard have -1 from 12 inch away or you just need to be on terrain.
IF RG is -1 to hit only when on terrain it can be really good for assault units.
only when on terrain, so when you dig in, into cover on ravenguard you've got +2 to your armor bonus and a -1 to hit you. shooting ravenguard intercessors out of a ruin is going to be a pain in the ass.
I don`t think you can get bonus from cover 2 times, so it should be +1 save from 12 inches away and in cover +1 like every1 else.
My question is do you get -1 to hit when you are less than 12 inches away.
I'd have liked to see something like this:
Captain/Chapter Master gives his reroll to entire table. Captains are limited to 1 per detachment. No more 3 smash captains leading 15 scouts, but you also don't wish you had 2-3 for aura coverage.
Lieutenants could either be 6" or 12" aura. Reasoning could be like they all have the communication gear sure, but the Lieutenants aren't as experienced at reading the distant battlefield as the Captain and so can only improve close by combatants.
Guilliman could either be changed to reroll all hits and only reroll 1s to wound granted across the whole table or keep the 6" size bubble for the reroll all wounds.
Chaplains stay 6", but changed to not overlap buffs with Captains.
I've always thought Chapter Masters should give Reroll all misses
Chaplains Reroll all whiffs (failed wounds)
Kids always behave better when Mom AND Dad are around.
Captain 1 to hits,
Lt's 1 to wounds.
Instead of picking between 6" or table wide, I'd figure out what the average table size is (4x6? 4x8?) and make the bubble - whatever the bubble is - big enough to cover about a quarter of it.
Marin wrote: QUESTION: Do raven guard have -1 from 12 inch away or you just need to be on terrain.
IF RG is -1 to hit only when on terrain it can be really good for assault units.
only when on terrain, so when you dig in, into cover on ravenguard you've got +2 to your armor bonus and a -1 to hit you. shooting ravenguard intercessors out of a ruin is going to be a pain in the ass.
I don`t think you can get bonus from cover 2 times, so it should be +1 save from 12 inches away and in cover +1 like every1 else.
My question is do you get -1 to hit when you are less than 12 inches away.
you're proably right. eaither way it;'s a pretty solid rule
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders.
Valhallans and Mordians don't have Razorbacks. That was my first reaction - MSU Razorback spam could be a thing again. Screen the tanks with the Marines to keep them CC free, the Razorback will stay in the top tier wound bracket until it's almost dead anyway.
I don`t think you can get bonus from cover 2 times, so it should be +1 save from 12 inches away and in cover +1 like every1 else.
My question is do you get -1 to hit when you are less than 12 inches away.
you're proably right. eaither way it;'s a pretty solid rule
No, I think you can't get the cover bonus twice, but you can modify the cover bonus - i.e. Camo Cloaks.
That doesn't apply here though - the rule checks multiple conditions so roughly and taking some generality liberties -
If:
opponent shooting:
12"+ away
Then:
If Not in Cover - In Cover
Else:
IF Vehicle - In Cover
If NOT Vehicle, -1 to hit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/06 08:29:10
I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders.
Valhallans and Mordians don't have Razorbacks. That was my first reaction - MSU Razorback spam could be a thing again. Screen the tanks with the Marines to keep them CC free, the Razorback will stay in the top tier wound bracket until it's almost dead anyway.
I don`t think you can get bonus from cover 2 times, so it should be +1 save from 12 inches away and in cover +1 like every1 else.
My question is do you get -1 to hit when you are less than 12 inches away.
you're proably right. eaither way it;'s a pretty solid rule
No, I think you can't get the cover bonus twice, but you can modify the cover bonus - i.e. Camo Cloaks.
That doesn't apply here though - the rule checks multiple conditions so roughly and taking some generality liberties -
If:
opponent shooting:
12"+ away
Then:
If Not in Cover - In Cover
Else:
IF Vehicle - In Cover
If NOT Vehicle, -1 to hit.
Yea you are probably right, i just wished that you get -1 without the 12 inch restriction.
Even so +1 save is better for SM vs no AP weapons and getting +1 save for vehicles is a buff.
White Scars will reliably achieve turn 1 charges, and are very tactically flexible. All Flying units will be leaving combat, shooting and then charging again to get the extra attack. People are underestimating how good this will be.
Iron Hands are very powerful, hard to decide between them and Salamanders. Less profile degradation means vehicles won't hit the bottom until they are on two wounds or less in almost every case. Nice FNP which over the course of a game will help many units. The Tau-like Overwatch means that Dakka platforms like Repulsors, Redemptors or larger infantry squads become much more dangerous to charge.
Salamanders gain a fantastic level of durability as Ap-1 weapons are so common across armies. They also get a very high level of efficiency on units that makes certain weapons - basically anything with high power and low volume - as efficient as if it was boosted by multiple characters or Guilliman for free, and without having to bubble around. I feel this might become the most popular chapter tactic as it's instantly very useful in every situation.
Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and BT are all much better too. Raven Guard have very durable vehicles thanks to the cover bonus and can still obtain a - 1 on key units in cover. It's overall probably as good as it was before.
As I said earlier, as it stands the Ultras have the worst chapter tactic as many new units that benefit only do so slightly. You might think that a Predator running from combat and shooting is great, however if the profile is degraded it will be hitting on a Six, or of it touches the lowest bracket it won't be able to shoot at all as the BS will be reduced to 7+
In fact, the +1 leadership is actually the more beneficial part of the Chapter Tactic over the average game.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/06 08:51:03
White Scars will reliably achieve turn 1 charges, and are very tactically flexible. All Flying units will be leaving combat, shooting and then charging again to get the extra attack. People are underestimating how good this will be.
OR you just ask any CSM player with a degree of competency.
just kinda funny that the whole hyper aggressive schtick that chaos had going now get's handed out for free* to regular SM.
* of course only if you pay GW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/06 08:56:22
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
7000+
3500
2000 
So no.
