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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Oh look, crimsons fists.

This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?

how much does an Ork Boy cost?

How much does a tactical marine cost in the new codex?

...13 points...

6 points for (Crimson Fist):
+1 Movement
+3 Ballistic
+1 WS
+3 Save
+3 Leadership
Better Dakka Dakka
Ignores Terrain

A better comparison would be Nob vs Primaris, but that's obvious who that would favour.

Wait, Orks hit in CC on a 4?

Crimson fists get +1 to hit against anything larger (squad size) than them.

Erm feth Chaos I guess? Kinda annoying they rolled out a chaos marine codex 2, then massively buff the marine chapter tactics.

 Ishagu wrote:
As of right now the Ultramarines have by far the worst chapter tactic, and it actively nerfs some of the units in the book. Terrible.

Nothing wrong with it, if you know how to use your units. Of course, if you are an inexperienced and naive player that doesn't know how to properly utilise it, you might think it is worthless.



Am I doing this right?

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Crimson fists get +1 to hit against anything larger (squad size) than them.

Which is why it's an actively worse Chapter Tactic than any of the other ones. Imperial Fists at least potentially screw with how the opponent might deploy. The bolt bonus is just, well, a bonus on top of that.

Remember folks: Pedro Kantor hits two Gaunts more effectively than he hits a Hive Tyrant or Dreadknight or even an Imperial Knight!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Oh look, crimsons fists.

This should be interesting, they have as many attacks as orks..
They get +1 to hit on orks? That's fun
Oh, they also have a better verison of Dakka Dakka Dakka that auto hits?

how much does an Ork Boy cost?

How much does a tactical marine cost in the new codex?

...13 points...

6 points for (Crimson Fist):
+1 Movement
+3 Ballistic
+1 WS
+3 Save
+3 Leadership
Better Dakka Dakka
Ignores Terrain

A better comparison would be Nob vs Primaris, but that's obvious who that would favour.

I'm sorry how are Crimson Fists ignoring terrain?

Yeah sorry, ignore that ignores terrain.
But my point still stands.

I think the part that irks me is the unique Ork rule being handed out to marines. That and it means re-roll bubbles are going to be even more cupcakes

 Eonfuzz wrote:
...the unique Ork rule being handed out to marines...

So you've been foaming at the mouth about the Black Templars having a rule functioning the same as WAAAGH! all edition?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
...the unique Ork rule being handed out to marines...

So you've been foaming at the mouth about the Black Templars having a rule functioning the same as WAAAGH! all edition?

The Waaaagh! Aura hardly counts as a unique rule. Bring back the once per game you can announce "WAAAAAGH" and I'd call it so.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
...the unique Ork rule being handed out to marines...

So you've been foaming at the mouth about the Black Templars having a rule functioning the same as WAAAGH! all edition?

The Waaaagh! Aura hardly counts as a unique rule. Bring back the once per game you can announce "WAAAAAGH" and I'd call it so.

wait are you refering to the "an unmodified roll of 6 adds an extra hit?" cause thats just a translation of the Imperial fists old 6th/7th edition chapter tactic.

So did anyone do the math for the new Black Templar tactic in terms of charging from Deep Strike? I hate doing math for something like that in particular.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So did anyone do the math for the new Black Templar tactic in terms of charging from Deep Strike? I hate doing math for something like that in particular.

It'd be similar to the Ork math, iirc it was about ~60%

 Ishagu wrote:
As of right now the Ultramarines have by far the worst chapter tactic, and it actively nerfs some of the units in the book. Terrible.

Salamanders and Iron Hands are incredible. Guilliman does not make up for the shortfall.

Hes right you know^

Djangomatic82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

bort wrote:
Man I wish they would remove auras. Let’s take a supposedly mobile strike force that excels at drop podding into the enemy and give them rules that make everyone want to clump into a little 6” ball.

There was an edition (4th?) where marines got to use the commanders leadership anywhere on the table cause unlike guard with voxes, marines have built in com systems. Being able to get aura bonuses anywhere or at least wider range would be pretty cool and thematic.

Yeah, it was 4th. There was a bonus perk of having to shoot the closest unit unless you passed a Ld check, too. With the Captain all marines had Ld 10. Better morale, better fire discipline. Awesome.

Sicarius gave his Ld for several editions after that. I took him a lot.

being able to get aura bonuses anywhere on the table would be insane. it'd make marines NUTS, at the same time I think it would solve a thematic issue with marines. right now marine HQs teeend to stay at the back with a firing line directing fire, this might work for say a gaurd army or something, but with Marines, thats not what I think of, I think of the captain directing the battle while rushing in where the fighting is thickest to contribute personally. and that change would allow it, of course it might make marines broken, I mean the end result would be Gulliman rushing forward and using his insane melee capability while the gunline in the back reins down the rediculas firepower.. I can hear the cries of hate now.

I was thinking of a way to get out of the 6" aura problem without also having guilliman be an issue a little while ago. Essentially, Aura's would still be present, but for units with a Sergeant or equivalent, they would still get the benefit of Aura's, from HQ units only, when outside of the regular 6" range. This way, units that don't thematically have a sergeant, like BA Death company, blood talons i think, and a few other's, would still need a character babysitter, while other more disciplined units could freely move about the board.
My one caveat to this would be to add the ability to target Sergeants and such with dedicated Sniper weapons, so that there is still a risk of losing your buff to specific units if the opponent has snipers. I dont think this will make any dedicated sniper unit like scouts or eldar rangers any better, but it might give them a nniche use at least.

Making Sgts (and sniping the sgts) mean something would be interesting though that change would have to be done for all armies that have them.

I'd have liked to see something like this:
Captain/Chapter Master gives his reroll to entire table. Captains are limited to 1 per detachment. No more 3 smash captains leading 15 scouts, but you also don't wish you had 2-3 for aura coverage.
Lieutenants could either be 6" or 12" aura. Reasoning could be like they all have the communication gear sure, but the Lieutenants aren't as experienced at reading the distant battlefield as the Captain and so can only improve close by combatants.
Guilliman could either be changed to reroll all hits and only reroll 1s to wound granted across the whole table or keep the 6" size bubble for the reroll all wounds.
Chaplains stay 6", but changed to not overlap buffs with Captains.

I don't think it'd make Marines too nuts. As is, the bulk of an army tends to get some rerolls already, tablewide is more of a mobility thing. Also, if you do charge your Captain into the heaviest fighting, you're in danger of losing your army wide buff.
Edit: Oh, and yes I realize this would conflict with the announced Salamander bonus a fair bit as you wouldn't need the hit rerolls, presumably their bonus would be different.

I'm fully assuming GW is going to leave everything with the 6" bubbles as is in the nex codex, cause that's what they've done for all the armies, but it'd have been cool to avoid that mould at least somewhat.

BrianDavion wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?

What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book

because the core rules are the CORE RULES. the supplements are optional. If I wanna play the ultramarines I don't NEED the ultramarines supplement. I might want it for the unique charaters and units sure, but it's also not nesscary.(the supplemental codexes thing is also being done to cut down on the number of pages in codex space marines, make no mistake)

For functional purposes they aren't optional. I've never met a player in 20 years who plays their favorite army and doesn't buy the rules for their favorite army. It's a bit absurd to think that's true for any significant amount of people. Also, your opponent can use them which again makes them non-optional.

Ultramarine tactic is excessively strong as FLY is probably the most important special rule in the entire game and now their ENTIRE army basically has a version of it. Makes almost all of their vehicles instantly more useful.

 Kirasu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Can anyone explain the logic behind having these in the core codex?

What's the point in releasing supplements if they are going to put those supplements rules in the core book

because the core rules are the CORE RULES. the supplements are optional. If I wanna play the ultramarines I don't NEED the ultramarines supplement. I might want it for the unique charaters and units sure, but it's also not nesscary.(the supplemental codexes thing is also being done to cut down on the number of pages in codex space marines, make no mistake)

For functional purposes they aren't optional. I've never met a player in 20 years who plays their favorite army and doesn't buy the rules for their favorite army. It's a bit absurd to think that's true for any significant amount of people. Also, your opponent can use them which again makes them non-optional.

Ultramarine tactic is excessively strong as FLY is probably the most important special rule in the entire game and now their ENTIRE army basically has a version of it. Makes almost all of their vehicles instantly more useful.

Except it isn't a version of fly. It immitates flys ability with a -1 without coming close to it's second ability which allows you to fly over units. Then lets look at your best units in your army.

Repuslors...have fly. Intercessors...better in CC with a bolt pistol shot than they are falling back with a -1. It is a passable trait for dreads if you don't get surrounded. Basically every vehicle uses heavy weapons so effectively a -2 when you fall back. Do you know what it's like paying marine prices to hit on 5's? It's kinda like getting kicked directly in the balls.

repulsors are a best space marine unit? funny all I hear is that they suck.

BrianDavion wrote:
repulsors are a best space marine unit? funny all I hear is that they suck.

Relic levi is the best space marine unit. Repuslors are probably number 2 and yes...they do suck compared to the feild. However. With the iron hands tactic they get a big boost to survivability to sustainability - they are pretty dang good as iron hands.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.

Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.

Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.

I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders. In order for improved overwatch to really pay out, you need to be able to destroy the unit before your next movement phase otherwise, it's still your final futile defiance before your tank becomes an expensive paperweight. Tau works because they can fire a big bucket of stuff in support of the unit being charged to wipe out somebody in overwatch.

The Raven Guard change is almost certainly a nerf, but 2+ armorsaves for all tanks isn't unwelcome.

I think Salamanders looks very good universally, and Crimsfists looks a little niche but also fairly good.

Well iron hands getting a good overwatch and a good vehicle rules makes them super powerful.

Most of the rules seem powerful and the salamanders getting that durability buff is great. Especially the -1 ap going to 0 makes marines super fun. Though ultramarines are finally put in their place and nerfed a bit in comparision to the other factions because of how strong they are with Bobby G

in addition white scars and black templar become the defacto charge armies, making all assault infantry incredibly powerful

 Xenomancers wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
repulsors are a best space marine unit? funny all I hear is that they suck.

Relic levi is the best space marine unit. Repuslors are probably number 2 and yes...they do suck compared to the feild. However. With the iron hands tactic they get a big boost to survivability to sustainability - they are pretty dang good as iron hands.

The repulsor is also super meta-dependent. The shooting is pretty good, but the -2 to charge distances can be game-changing in several match-ups. Chaos, orks, genestealers, and nids can all get hurt quite a bit by have a -2 to charge.

I note that whtie scars and ultramariens seem weakest but are the first chapters with codex supplements, makes me wonder if those two chapters are going to be the more stratigium (or even Libarian) dependant

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.

Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.

Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.

I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders. In order for improved overwatch to really pay out, you need to be able to destroy the unit before your next movement phase otherwise, it's still your final futile defiance before your tank becomes an expensive paperweight. Tau works because they can fire a big bucket of stuff in support of the unit being charged to wipe out somebody in overwatch.

The Raven Guard change is almost certainly a nerf, but 2+ armorsaves for all tanks isn't unwelcome.

I think Salamanders looks very good universally, and Crimsfists looks a little niche but also fairly good.

You forgot there were three parts to that Tactic. Iron Hands are easily going to be better than Salamanders.

Marines weren't dying that much to AP-1 before anyway.

BrianDavion wrote:
I note that whtie scars and ultramariens seem weakest but are the first chapters with codex supplements, makes me wonder if those two chapters are going to be the more stratigium (or even Libarian) dependant

White scars are supposed to have the second most powerful psykers in the Adeptus Astartes. And should have their own psychic powers and their own units.

I do hope this means we are getting our Khan Guards. And Daos.

Lets hope we also get some old weapons from horus heresy for our captains.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think any of these are they stand could be used very efficiently.

Really impressed with the way the Iron Hands, and Ravenguard work.

Iron hands are effectively getting 3 really good traits in 1. 6+ FNP is already one of the best options available in armies that can take it. Tau sept is hands down the best for tau (it's even better in an army with a reroll all hits aura) + their vehicles don't degrade badly. Yet Ultramarines tactic - clearly the worst even of the old tactics didn't change. Because Gman is OP man. So OP he elevates space marines to a 40% WR in competitive. AMAZING stuff GW.

I'm not impressed with Iron Hands. Nobody I know or have heard of takes Valhallan or Mordian, and I'm not convinced that fusing them together and adding a 6+++ will outweigh offensive options like Salamanders. In order for improved overwatch to really pay out, you need to be able to destroy the unit before your next movement phase otherwise, it's still your final futile defiance before your tank becomes an expensive paperweight. Tau works because they can fire a big bucket of stuff in support of the unit being charged to wipe out somebody in overwatch.

The Raven Guard change is almost certainly a nerf, but 2+ armorsaves for all tanks isn't unwelcome.

I think Salamanders looks very good universally, and Crimsfists looks a little niche but also fairly good.

You forgot there were three parts to that Tactic. Iron Hands are easily going to be better than Salamanders.

Marines weren't dying that much to AP-1 before anyway.

The Valhalla or Mordian bonuses aren't good on their own, I don't know why they'd be good glued together since they don't build on each other or anything. Maybe something from Valhalla building with the 6+++, but that seems pretty edge case making a difference.

I think Salamanders will blow Iron Hands away. Re-rolling a to-hit and to wound is really good for Marine armor, almost certainly better than a 5+ overwatch and the Valhallan ability. The AP1 ignoring is basically pointless.

To be fair with the IH power balance, it really needs all 3 parts, right? Just the 6+++ and everyone considered it the weakest. Almost every other chapter picked up a decent second power, so if IH only got a comparable second they'd still be in the weakest. They really needed either 3 or a really good secondary.

Other than the Ultramarines and maybe Raven Guard, every single space marine chapter improved. I really hope they at least remove the infantry restriction for the CSM traits to help compensate. Knowing our luck though, that won't happen.

the real thing we can't be sure of is the "Create a chapter" rules. I've got a hunch they'll actually be slightly stronger then the first founder stuff to make up for not having stratigiums and a librarius school

I think RG got kinda shafted too. Even if we call the -1 to cover change a sidegrade instead of nerf, they still didn't get a second power with it. It's not as bad as UM, but still kinda sucks for them and they don't have the slate of special units and characters like UM to have more potential areas to compensate in.

bort wrote:
To be fair with the IH power balance, it really needs all 3 parts, right? Just the 6+++ and everyone considered it the weakest. Almost every other chapter picked up a decent second power, so if IH only got a comparable second they'd still be in the weakest. They really needed either 3 or a really good secondary.

IMO it is was only weak because it didn't apply to vehicles.