Mmmpi wrote: The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.
Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.
You'd hardly need to double the size of the book given that two thirds of it (at least) is shared among all marines (bolters, rhinos, plasma guns, predators, dreadnoughts, land speeders, cyclone missile launchers, and most of the basic fluff loke the creation of space marines, etc), and the size of the book is a relatively minor part of the cost.
Looking at GW's current pricing of books, the page counts they have, that of other games and companies, it's really hard to see where a combined SM codex would come out at any significantly higher price point than any other codex. Maybe at worst it's $50 or 60 instead of 40? Even then I suspect they'd keep it about the same as the others, if for no other reason than to keep the main product line accessible, and it's certainly not going to be anywhere near $200, or even $100.
I don't expect we will ever see a single combined SM book for various other (mainly business cycle) reasons, but price isnt one of them.
Considering just the unique units (not characters) from each run 10-15 pages of datasheets, plus 5 pages of characters, plus a page for special rules, plus two pages for stratagems (instead of four when you include the generics), a page for relics, a page for P.Powers, a page for WL traits, six pages for paintjobs, maybe 10-15 for fluff. The minimum there is 37 pages. Maximum is 47. That's per army, so it would be 37-47 pages each for BA/DA/SW. That's 110-141 pages, and I'm frankly lowballing paint jobs and fluff. That's also not including any pages needed for wargear and weapons.
So I stand by my claim. Just like I did several pages ago when this was first discussed.
Mmmpi wrote: That's not a rules artifact. It would be a rules artifact if they didn't change it as the core rules changed.
What?
A rules artifact is a rule that exists from a previous edition that doesn't work because the core rules it depended on changed. It's the lack of change (when change is needed) that makes it what it is, not the fact that it gets updated frequently.
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
It's 10 pages, because they're all unique. Except in your imagination. So that's right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Nice stealth edit.
Your insulting tone doesn't really help your argument Princess.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.
Oh wait...it isn't.
Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....
A lot of those 'can take wargear' things have no reason to be unique. There is no reason that all Terminators can't mix weapons, they used to be able to do that, and in Space Hulk they still do. There is no reason for only BA being able to take hand flamers, heavy flamers and inferno pistols. It is really crazy that Salamanders can't do that. Stupid pointless limitations.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.
Oh wait...it isn't.
Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....
Which one unit gets, and another doesn't. Just because you want your Ultramarines to have deathwing, doesn't mean they should.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: A lot of those 'can take wargear' things have no reason to be unique. There is no reason that all Terminators can't mix weapons, they used to be able to do that, and in Space Hulk they still do. There is no reason for only BA being able to take hand flamers, heavy flamers and inferno pistols. It is really crazy that Salamanders can't do that. Stupid pointless limitations.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.
Oh wait...it isn't.
Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....
Which one unit gets, and another doesn't. Just because you want your Ultramarines to have deathwing, doesn't mean they should.
I already have Deathwing because I have Dark Angels army - for about the million fething time.
"Sigh" can you stick to facts and not invent nonsense. ALSO Keywords are a thing Mate.
Just because you (for some wierd selfish reason I don't understand) want to stop other Chapters being properely represented does not mean that they should not be.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.
Oh wait...it isn't.
Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....
Which one unit gets, and another doesn't. Just because you want your Ultramarines to have deathwing, doesn't mean they should.
I already have Deathwing because I have Dark Angels army - for about the million fething time.
"Sigh" can you stick to facts and not invent nonsense. ALSO Keywords are a thing Mate.
Just because you (for some wierd selfish reason I don't understand) want to stop other Chapters being properely represented does not mean that they should not be.
Sure dude.
Keywords are a thing. Based on army and unit type, ect.
Except you're the one removing armies. People can already use Wolfen to represent black dragons. Just use the SW rules. Same for the rest.
So, yeah. I'm going to keep sticking to the facts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Agreed, except for those "unique" units that SHOULD be available as a base unit, to allow more variety on other chapters, like all the different flavors of bestial marines.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Agreed, except for those "unique" units that SHOULD be available as a base unit, to allow more variety on other chapters, like all the different flavors of bestial marines.
They really don't need to be available as a base unit. Just use the codex that best fits your personal chapter idea.
Mmmpi wrote: Except you're the one removing armies. People can already use Wolfen to represent black dragons. Just use the SW rules.
But then black dragons get ALL the differences and additional restrictions between Space Wolves and normal Marines, many of which make no sense for them. But you don't care about them because they are not a special snowflake chapter...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: They really don't need to be available as a base unit. Just use the codex that best fits your personal chapter idea.
They really need to be available as a base unit. In a codex designed around the idea that people create their own chapters. With supplements for people who want to use an established chapter instead of creating their own. The other marines chapters were never designed with the idea of creating your own chapter in mind!!!
Mmmpi wrote: Except you're the one removing armies. People can already use Wolfen to represent black dragons. Just use the SW rules.
But then black dragons get ALL the differences and additional restrictions between Space Wolves and normal Marines, many of which make no sense for them.
But you don't care about them because they are not a special snowflake chapter...
Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.
There is another issue with consolidation that is GW typically overreacting: I'm talking about Rule of 3 that already impact Deathwing and Ravenwing (for example) that are saved by their special unit...
But I'm seriously thinking how to field a White Scars army when you can have 3 biker units tops. Consolidation will require and impede any iteration of Rule of 3.
That's without mentioning the fact that if GW can sell you almost the same rule with a slight difference they will do so.
Mmmpi wrote: Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.
They don't receive any kind of special, preferential treatment. They are just slightly more deviant from the codex than average. Nothing special snowflake about this.
You just really don't like the idea of people creating their own chapters, do you? You'd rather people play one of the pre-established chapter.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
It's 10 pages, because they're all unique. Except in your imagination. So that's right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Nice stealth edit.
Your insulting tone doesn't really help your argument Princess.
I never did a stealth edit, and never edit unless I find grammar issues in my posts. So I have no idea what you're on about, but you got the last part of my sentence in terms of attitude right, so...
And no it is NOT 10 pages. Remove the silly units that aren't much different and you're good. After all, Furiosos were already basically Ironclads in terms of stats since AV values were a thing. It won't kill you to use it as an Ironclad with the two different fists being either Chainfist or Seismic Hammer. It's a lot simpler than you're making it to be
Mmmpi wrote: Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.
They don't receive any kind of special, preferential treatment. They are just slightly more deviant from the codex than average. Nothing special snowflake about this.
You just really don't like the idea of people creating their own chapters, do you? You'd rather people play one of the pre-established chapter.
They're not special snowflakes to GW. They're special snowflakes to the people who want special treatment for them. There are already several easy to do ways to build them using existing codexes, but that's apparently not good enough. Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
It's 10 pages, because they're all unique. Except in your imagination. So that's right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Nice stealth edit.
Your insulting tone doesn't really help your argument Princess.
I never did a stealth edit, and never edit unless I find grammar issues in my posts. So I have no idea what you're on about, but you got the last part of my sentence in terms of attitude right, so...
And no it is NOT 10 pages. Remove the silly units that aren't much different and you're good. After all, Furiosos were already basically Ironclads in terms of stats since AV values were a thing. It won't kill you to use it as an Ironclad with the two different fists being either Chainfist or Seismic Hammer. It's a lot simpler than you're making it to be
So remove the silly units. Ok, we have 10 pages. Remember, YOU think they're silly. Others do not.
They are silly, and the people that don't think they're silly, like you, like rules for the sake of rules when said rules don't work and honestly never have.
Mmmpi wrote: Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.
Because the game is currently build so that, at least for marines, you are VERY encouraged to use an already established, first or second founding chapter instead of creating your own. Which I think sucks, big time.
And consolidating would encourage people to make a more personal choice, by taking some of the lesser known chapters or creating their own.
Cybtroll wrote:There is another issue with consolidation that is GW typically overreacting: I'm talking about Rule of 3 that already impact Deathwing and Ravenwing (for example) that are saved by their special unit...
But I'm seriously thinking how to field a White Scars army when you can have 3 biker units tops. Consolidation will require and impede any iteration of Rule of 3.
That's without mentioning the fact that if GW can sell you almost the same rule with a slight difference they will do so.
Minor point, and one made without reading the new WS supplement - I seem to recall that they weren't just about the bikes, but about rapid movement all round. Units in transports, Scout Bikes, air-cav would all fit with that general theme (unless something was radically altered in the supplement, of course)
Crimson wrote:There is no reason for only BA being able to take hand flamers, heavy flamers and inferno pistols. It is really crazy that Salamanders can't do that. Stupid pointless limitations.
Well, BA do have the original Inferno Pistol in the game - thank you, Dante - when it was meant to be a special bit of kit, so that one makes a bit of sense. Less so since the SoB nicked it, but I digress.
Salamanders did have a supplemental army list back in Codex: Armageddon (3rd edition, IIRC?), alongside Speed Freeks, Black Templars and Steel Legion. I quite like the rule that allowed a Salamanders player to force a game to go beyond the normal game length by a turn. The reduction in Initiative wouldn't be a factor today, though Sturdy might affect Advance or even Charge rolls now.
Black Templars made it out from Armageddon into their own 'dex. The Steel Legion and Speed Freeks forces were (aside from a couple of options) available within the next iteration of their codex. I'm guessing there wasn't enough interest shown in the Salamanders during Armageddon for GW to think they were viable as a solo Codex, which is why they were folded back into the SM book without most of the differences (like the stat changes) in future versions.
Mmmpi wrote: The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.
Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.
You'd hardly need to double the size of the book given that two thirds of it (at least) is shared among all marines (bolters, rhinos, plasma guns, predators, dreadnoughts, land speeders, cyclone missile launchers, and most of the basic fluff loke the creation of space marines, etc), and the size of the book is a relatively minor part of the cost.
Looking at GW's current pricing of books, the page counts they have, that of other games and companies, it's really hard to see where a combined SM codex would come out at any significantly higher price point than any other codex. Maybe at worst it's $50 or 60 instead of 40? Even then I suspect they'd keep it about the same as the others, if for no other reason than to keep the main product line accessible, and it's certainly not going to be anywhere near $200, or even $100.
I don't expect we will ever see a single combined SM book for various other (mainly business cycle) reasons, but price isnt one of them.
Considering just the unique units (not characters) from each run 10-15 pages of datasheets, plus 5 pages of characters, plus a page for special rules, plus two pages for stratagems (instead of four when you include the generics), a page for relics, a page for P.Powers, a page for WL traits, six pages for paintjobs, maybe 10-15 for fluff. The minimum there is 37 pages. Maximum is 47. That's per army, so it would be 37-47 pages each for BA/DA/SW. That's 110-141 pages, and I'm frankly lowballing paint jobs and fluff. That's also not including any pages needed for wargear and weapons.
So I stand by my claim. Just like I did several pages ago when this was first discussed.
There's tons of ways to compact that, both in terms of editing and game design, without squatting anything. Also, lets be real, even if some stuff gets dropped or changed, that happens to some extent with every update, combined book or not.
Even an extra hundred pages or doubling its size is not going to turn a $40 book into a $200 one. If FW can put out a book covering multiple Heresy era Legions over 300 pages with nonstandard sizing and leather binding and foil edging and metal corners and parchment paper pages for $115, I don't see where a main studio Codex book is going to come anywhere close.
You can stand by that assertion, but working in a business that does major printing, looking at GW and FW's offerings, and those of other gaming companies, that assertion does not appear to line up with any other examples or experiences I can see.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.
Oh wait...it isn't.
Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....
Mmmpi wrote: Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.
They don't receive any kind of special, preferential treatment. They are just slightly more deviant from the codex than average. Nothing special snowflake about this.
You just really don't like the idea of people creating their own chapters, do you? You'd rather people play one of the pre-established chapter.
They're not special snowflakes to GW. They're special snowflakes to the people who want special treatment for them. There are already several easy to do ways to build them using existing codexes, but that's apparently not good enough. Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.
I've never seen a BA or SW army(or successors)in my area and I only know 2 DA players. But I've seen tons of non snowflakes, IF, CF, IH, + a ton of custom(before cool rules) & I play Salamanders. Sooo.....?
GW unfortunately have "painted themselves into a corner" with how long they've favored BA/DA/SW. Now that they've shown interest in other chapters/legions, some people fear they'd lose their "special"ness if the Marine component of all chapters were unified(like they should) and any touchyfeely specialness be distilled out of codex into a supplement.
2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?
they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized
Mmmpi wrote: The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.
Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.
.
and the previous space marine codex was considerably bigger and cost 10 bucks more. that's the thing, codex space marines ahs already approuched the point of being almost too big. the supplements where done as an excuse to move the chapter unique stuff out side the core codex to cut down on page count.
2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?
they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized
Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.
2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?
they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized
Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.
they could strip the number of sheets down and have 4 seperate kits repsresent the same thing, but I bet that doesn't sell as well.
2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?
they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized
Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.
they could strip the number of sheets down and have 4 seperate kits repsresent the same thing, but I bet that doesn't sell as well.
Well seeing as I use stock Mk3 dudes for my Sternguard, I'm already hurting their business model.
2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?
they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized
Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.
they could strip the number of sheets down and have 4 seperate kits repsresent the same thing, but I bet that doesn't sell as well.
Well seeing as I use stock Mk3 dudes for my Sternguard, I'm already hurting their business model.
don't those guys cost more then the basic tac marine kit?
2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?
they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized
Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.
they could strip the number of sheets down and have 4 seperate kits repsresent the same thing, but I bet that doesn't sell as well.
Well seeing as I use stock Mk3 dudes for my Sternguard, I'm already hurting their business model.
don't those guys cost more then the basic tac marine kit?
Not when you have enough Burning of Prospero copies and sell off the Custodes and Terminators you don't need.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the Sisters of course. You can sell those but it's a lot harder.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They are silly, and the people that don't think they're silly, like you, like rules for the sake of rules when said rules don't work and honestly never have.
Mmmpi wrote: Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.
Because the game is currently build so that, at least for marines, you are VERY encouraged to use an already established, first or second founding chapter instead of creating your own. Which I think sucks, big time.
And consolidating would encourage people to make a more personal choice, by taking some of the lesser known chapters or creating their own.
Or it's that people like the armies (for rules as well as fluff), and so play what they like.
Mmmpi wrote: The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.
Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.
You'd hardly need to double the size of the book given that two thirds of it (at least) is shared among all marines (bolters, rhinos, plasma guns, predators, dreadnoughts, land speeders, cyclone missile launchers, and most of the basic fluff loke the creation of space marines, etc), and the size of the book is a relatively minor part of the cost.
Looking at GW's current pricing of books, the page counts they have, that of other games and companies, it's really hard to see where a combined SM codex would come out at any significantly higher price point than any other codex. Maybe at worst it's $50 or 60 instead of 40? Even then I suspect they'd keep it about the same as the others, if for no other reason than to keep the main product line accessible, and it's certainly not going to be anywhere near $200, or even $100.
I don't expect we will ever see a single combined SM book for various other (mainly business cycle) reasons, but price isnt one of them.
Considering just the unique units (not characters) from each run 10-15 pages of datasheets, plus 5 pages of characters, plus a page for special rules, plus two pages for stratagems (instead of four when you include the generics), a page for relics, a page for P.Powers, a page for WL traits, six pages for paintjobs, maybe 10-15 for fluff. The minimum there is 37 pages. Maximum is 47. That's per army, so it would be 37-47 pages each for BA/DA/SW. That's 110-141 pages, and I'm frankly lowballing paint jobs and fluff. That's also not including any pages needed for wargear and weapons.
So I stand by my claim. Just like I did several pages ago when this was first discussed.
There's tons of ways to compact that, both in terms of editing and game design, without squatting anything. Also, lets be real, even if some stuff gets dropped or changed, that happens to some extent with every update, combined book or not.
Even an extra hundred pages or doubling its size is not going to turn a $40 book into a $200 one. If FW can put out a book covering multiple Heresy era Legions over 300 pages with nonstandard sizing and leather binding and foil edging and metal corners and parchment paper pages for $115, I don't see where a main studio Codex book is going to come anywhere close.
You can stand by that assertion, but working in a business that does major printing, looking at GW and FW's offerings, and those of other gaming companies, that assertion does not appear to line up with any other examples or experiences I can see.
Again, you can't compare GW's book prices with what other (saner) companies do. Don't forget too, that those phonebook sized RPG books you can buy for under $60 are also lost liters.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They are silly, and the people that don't think they're silly, like you, like rules for the sake of rules when said rules don't work and honestly never have.
Mmmpi wrote: Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.
Because the game is currently build so that, at least for marines, you are VERY encouraged to use an already established, first or second founding chapter instead of creating your own. Which I think sucks, big time.
And consolidating would encourage people to make a more personal choice, by taking some of the lesser known chapters or creating their own.
Or it's that people like the armies (for rules as well as fluff), and so play what they like.
Mmmpi wrote: The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.
Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.
You'd hardly need to double the size of the book given that two thirds of it (at least) is shared among all marines (bolters, rhinos, plasma guns, predators, dreadnoughts, land speeders, cyclone missile launchers, and most of the basic fluff loke the creation of space marines, etc), and the size of the book is a relatively minor part of the cost.
Looking at GW's current pricing of books, the page counts they have, that of other games and companies, it's really hard to see where a combined SM codex would come out at any significantly higher price point than any other codex. Maybe at worst it's $50 or 60 instead of 40? Even then I suspect they'd keep it about the same as the others, if for no other reason than to keep the main product line accessible, and it's certainly not going to be anywhere near $200, or even $100.
I don't expect we will ever see a single combined SM book for various other (mainly business cycle) reasons, but price isnt one of them.
Considering just the unique units (not characters) from each run 10-15 pages of datasheets, plus 5 pages of characters, plus a page for special rules, plus two pages for stratagems (instead of four when you include the generics), a page for relics, a page for P.Powers, a page for WL traits, six pages for paintjobs, maybe 10-15 for fluff. The minimum there is 37 pages. Maximum is 47. That's per army, so it would be 37-47 pages each for BA/DA/SW. That's 110-141 pages, and I'm frankly lowballing paint jobs and fluff. That's also not including any pages needed for wargear and weapons.
So I stand by my claim. Just like I did several pages ago when this was first discussed.
There's tons of ways to compact that, both in terms of editing and game design, without squatting anything. Also, lets be real, even if some stuff gets dropped or changed, that happens to some extent with every update, combined book or not.
Even an extra hundred pages or doubling its size is not going to turn a $40 book into a $200 one. If FW can put out a book covering multiple Heresy era Legions over 300 pages with nonstandard sizing and leather binding and foil edging and metal corners and parchment paper pages for $115, I don't see where a main studio Codex book is going to come anywhere close.
You can stand by that assertion, but working in a business that does major printing, looking at GW and FW's offerings, and those of other gaming companies, that assertion does not appear to line up with any other examples or experiences I can see.
Again, you can't compare GW's book prices with what other (saner) companies do. Don't forget too, that those phonebook sized RPG books you can buy for under $60 are also lost liters.
It isn't just opinion those rules haven't worked. It's a fact.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.
Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......
Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.
Oh wait...it isn't.
Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....
Mmmpi wrote: Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.
They don't receive any kind of special, preferential treatment. They are just slightly more deviant from the codex than average. Nothing special snowflake about this.
You just really don't like the idea of people creating their own chapters, do you? You'd rather people play one of the pre-established chapter.
They're not special snowflakes to GW. They're special snowflakes to the people who want special treatment for them. There are already several easy to do ways to build them using existing codexes, but that's apparently not good enough. Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.
I've never seen a BA or SW army(or successors)in my area and I only know 2 DA players. But I've seen tons of non snowflakes, IF, CF, IH, + a ton of custom(before cool rules) & I play Salamanders. Sooo.....?
Yay for anecdotal stories? I've seen a few successor chapters on the table for all three, and in my LGS there are as many DA (and SW) players as there are regular marine players combined. Maybe about 1/2 BA/Regular marines as well.
GW unfortunately have "painted themselves into a corner" with how long they've favored BA/DA/SW. Now that they've shown interest in other chapters/legions, some people fear they'd lose their "special"ness if the Marine component of all chapters were unified(like they should) and any touchyfeely specialness be distilled out of codex into a supplement.
You have yet to prove why they 'should' be unified. It's just you're claim that they should.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They are silly, and the people that don't think they're silly, like you, like rules for the sake of rules when said rules don't work and honestly never have.
Mmmpi wrote: Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.
Because the game is currently build so that, at least for marines, you are VERY encouraged to use an already established, first or second founding chapter instead of creating your own. Which I think sucks, big time.
And consolidating would encourage people to make a more personal choice, by taking some of the lesser known chapters or creating their own.
Or it's that people like the armies (for rules as well as fluff), and so play what they like.
Mmmpi wrote: The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.
Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.
You'd hardly need to double the size of the book given that two thirds of it (at least) is shared among all marines (bolters, rhinos, plasma guns, predators, dreadnoughts, land speeders, cyclone missile launchers, and most of the basic fluff loke the creation of space marines, etc), and the size of the book is a relatively minor part of the cost.
Looking at GW's current pricing of books, the page counts they have, that of other games and companies, it's really hard to see where a combined SM codex would come out at any significantly higher price point than any other codex. Maybe at worst it's $50 or 60 instead of 40? Even then I suspect they'd keep it about the same as the others, if for no other reason than to keep the main product line accessible, and it's certainly not going to be anywhere near $200, or even $100.
I don't expect we will ever see a single combined SM book for various other (mainly business cycle) reasons, but price isnt one of them.
Considering just the unique units (not characters) from each run 10-15 pages of datasheets, plus 5 pages of characters, plus a page for special rules, plus two pages for stratagems (instead of four when you include the generics), a page for relics, a page for P.Powers, a page for WL traits, six pages for paintjobs, maybe 10-15 for fluff. The minimum there is 37 pages. Maximum is 47. That's per army, so it would be 37-47 pages each for BA/DA/SW. That's 110-141 pages, and I'm frankly lowballing paint jobs and fluff. That's also not including any pages needed for wargear and weapons.
So I stand by my claim. Just like I did several pages ago when this was first discussed.
There's tons of ways to compact that, both in terms of editing and game design, without squatting anything. Also, lets be real, even if some stuff gets dropped or changed, that happens to some extent with every update, combined book or not.
Even an extra hundred pages or doubling its size is not going to turn a $40 book into a $200 one. If FW can put out a book covering multiple Heresy era Legions over 300 pages with nonstandard sizing and leather binding and foil edging and metal corners and parchment paper pages for $115, I don't see where a main studio Codex book is going to come anywhere close.
You can stand by that assertion, but working in a business that does major printing, looking at GW and FW's offerings, and those of other gaming companies, that assertion does not appear to line up with any other examples or experiences I can see.
Again, you can't compare GW's book prices with what other (saner) companies do. Don't forget too, that those phonebook sized RPG books you can buy for under $60 are also lost liters.
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It isn't just opinion those rules haven't worked. It's a fact.
I've seen people use them. Who should I trust? Your words, or my eyes?
If we could harness all the rage people had for others having special toys and them finding it dumb, pointless or wanting it too, we could power the earth with it. Regenerated daily, it would usher in a golden age for all mankind.
I think its pretty clear it isn't the fact GW can't crush all this stuff together, they don't want to. They want there to be enough difference to sell us the same armies multiple times because of the color of our space mans. It isn't the fact they just don't get it as event he primaris are seeing unit bloat with all the different captains, Lts, characters, untis etc, etc that are just minor changes off one another. I think its safe to say, this trend isn't going anywhere GW is the great unclean one, bloated on all its rules.
Arguing forever on it is pointless, the other books give GW a time to release more books, they love releasing more books, sell you the same armies over and over and over again because it keeps marines rotating around in the release cycle.
As well some people do like their unique units and sure I wish everyone had their own unique units and maybe one day they will, I mean we're all marines, a new codex for every month is our destiny !!
Nobody has to play specific chapters...
Its possible to run "homebrew" for 20+ Years so we don't need "SpaceMarine8.5" to start this.
Would agree it was convienient for GW to make multipart-plastic-kits, offer some add ons and sell <insert chapter here> squads. Did they change with Primaris? Or just Lt and Lt and Lt...
Are you encouraged to play Space Wolves from a Space Wolves ( supplement or codex ) ?
Are you encouraged to play Ultramarines from a Space Marine codex 3.0 ( with supplements DA + BA + SW ) ?
Pick DA and you have the whole "unforgiven" to choose your chapter. Pick BA or any other former Legion with successors at 2nd founding and youre not encouraged to play the chapter that kept the former Legions Insignia. Its your choice.
The only real encouragement I see is based on rules design ( more Power.... ) and flavor of the month / buy the new shiny. So either failure at balancing or pure marketing.....
Am I encouraged to play chapter X from codex SM: 3.0 ? or 4.0 ? or 5.0 ? 6.0 ? 7.0 ? Maybe if your whole drive is "the best deal" isn't it? But is that really the main motivation of everyone?
Would you choose to play a supplement in 3rd ed? You could just buy codex SM and save money. You could be stuck with very pricey units if you want DA... is more points for the same considered "encouragement" ?
Never heard I have to play X except from fanbois. GW is perfectly happy to sell as many Space Marines and paints and glue and let you decide how your stuff looks. Their encouragement is aimed at your wallet.... not the color of your Space Marines.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You aren't even encouraged to play successors with the Blood and Dark Angels based on relic access and lack of the Chapter Master Stratagem!
With the current codex, there's really no point playing Dark Angels if you aren't taking Azrael in all honesty. Which is sad, but it's the same boat Ultras were in for 2 years.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You aren't even encouraged to play successors with the Blood and Dark Angels based on relic access and lack of the Chapter Master Stratagem!
With the current codex, there's really no point playing Dark Angels if you aren't taking Azrael in all honesty. Which is sad, but it's the same boat Ultras were in for 2 years.
Also, I expect the relic side of things to be resolved if/when DA/BA/SW get a v2 book, given I believe things are better with the v2 SM/UM/WS books?
The lack of the Chapter Master strat is an interesting one, though - hadn't noticed that before.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You aren't even encouraged to play successors with the Blood and Dark Angels based on relic access and lack of the Chapter Master Stratagem!
With the current codex, there's really no point playing Dark Angels if you aren't taking Azrael in all honesty. Which is sad, but it's the same boat Ultras were in for 2 years.
Also, I expect the relic side of things to be resolved if/when DA/BA/SW get a v2 book, given I believe things are better with the v2 SM/UM/WS books?
The lack of the Chapter Master strat is an interesting one, though - hadn't noticed that before.
Yeah, it does suck. It's like they forgot DA successors would have Chapter Masters...
It's not just re-rolls for Azrael though, that 4++ aura is very tasty.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You aren't even encouraged to play successors with the Blood and Dark Angels based on relic access and lack of the Chapter Master Stratagem!
With the current codex, there's really no point playing Dark Angels if you aren't taking Azrael in all honesty. Which is sad, but it's the same boat Ultras were in for 2 years.
Which is part of the problem of not consolidating, but whatever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You aren't even encouraged to play successors with the Blood and Dark Angels based on relic access and lack of the Chapter Master Stratagem!
With the current codex, there's really no point playing Dark Angels if you aren't taking Azrael in all honesty. Which is sad, but it's the same boat Ultras were in for 2 years.
Which is part of the problem of not consolidating, but whatever.
Firstly I find it bizarre that only one chapter and it’s successor can have melee weapon only Dreadnoughts (I would kill for something like the Furioso for my Black Templar’s just for the theme) and Librarian Dreadnoughts. Terminators should be able to have mixed weapon sets, it might help them remain relevant with the increasing number of primaris units. The Blood Angels and no-one else being able to take heavy flamers in their tac squads is just bizarre.
The Blood Angels mostly make it hard to argue that they deserve a special codex, they only units that should be unique are the sanguinary guard and death company. Dark Angels are a little more complicated but their should be rules allowing Bikers for troops choices. A lot of the “ordinary” chapters should get some customisation choices akin to theirs.
Space wolves are a lot harder to argue though. And the one other chapter in the fluff with mutations doesn’t really give out a strong enough arguement for rolling the Space Puppies into the normal marine codex.
Firstly I find it bizarre that only one chapter and it’s successor can have melee weapon only Dreadnoughts
Dreadnoughts are particularly dumb.
In 2nd any Dreadnought could could have two fists.
In 3rd only Blood Angels could take the two fist Furioso.
In 4th Codex: Black Templars shows a two fist dreadnought which they can't take, and Dawn of War features melee Dreads for Blood Ravens.
In 5th vanilla Marines get the Ironclad.
Also in 5th Blood Angel Furiosos can swap a fist for a gun which defeats the whole point.
In 7th Space Wolves get melee Venerable Dreadnoughts, and a special character which is basically hairy Moriah the Chosen (who Blood Angels can't take since 3rd).
How many different Dreadnought entries are there now? Are we over 20 yet?
Mmmpi wrote: Or it's that people like the armies (for rules as well as fluff), and so play what they like.
Do you somehow disagree that GW have encouraged people to play specific, established chapters rather than create their own, for a very long time?
I do disagree. I think they haven't encouraged making your own chapter on a rules level. On a creation level, they release tons of articles every year about custom building and converting models to make personalized units/chapters/regiments/craftworlds.
Firstly I find it bizarre that only one chapter and it’s successor can have melee weapon only Dreadnoughts (I would kill for something like the Furioso for my Black Templar’s just for the theme) and Librarian Dreadnoughts. Terminators should be able to have mixed weapon sets, it might help them remain relevant with the increasing number of primaris units. The Blood Angels and no-one else being able to take heavy flamers in their tac squads is just bizarre.
The Blood Angels mostly make it hard to argue that they deserve a special codex, they only units that should be unique are the sanguinary guard and death company. Dark Angels are a little more complicated but their should be rules allowing Bikers for troops choices. A lot of the “ordinary” chapters should get some customisation choices akin to theirs.
Space wolves are a lot harder to argue though. And the one other chapter in the fluff with mutations doesn’t really give out a strong enough arguement for rolling the Space Puppies into the normal marine codex.
The 5th edition codex allowed everyone to take Heavy Flamers, which was removed for no good reason.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You aren't even encouraged to play successors with the Blood and Dark Angels based on relic access and lack of the Chapter Master Stratagem!
With the current codex, there's really no point playing Dark Angels if you aren't taking Azrael in all honesty. Which is sad, but it's the same boat Ultras were in for 2 years.
Which is part of the problem of not consolidating, but whatever.
Not really, it's a problem with named characters.
Untrue. See, the 5th-7th edition Vanilla codices allowed you to take Chapter Masters as an option, whereas the Angels didn't, which makes no sense for a codex meant to represent those Chapters AND their Successors. Blood Angels getting a different named Character for one doesn't count and you know that.
Mmmpi wrote: Or it's that people like the armies (for rules as well as fluff), and so play what they like.
Do you somehow disagree that GW have encouraged people to play specific, established chapters rather than create their own, for a very long time?
I do disagree. I think they haven't encouraged making your own chapter on a rules level. On a creation level, they release tons of articles every year about custom building and converting models to make personalized units/chapters/regiments/craftworlds.
IOW, they haven't encouraged it. Thanks for playing.
Mmmpi wrote: Or it's that people like the armies (for rules as well as fluff), and so play what they like.
Do you somehow disagree that GW have encouraged people to play specific, established chapters rather than create their own, for a very long time?
I do disagree. I think they haven't encouraged making your own chapter on a rules level. On a creation level, they release tons of articles every year about custom building and converting models to make personalized units/chapters/regiments/craftworlds.
IOW, they haven't encouraged it. Thanks for playing.
"AKA GW didn't do something the exact way I want them to, so I'm going to cry about it."
Firstly I find it bizarre that only one chapter and it’s successor can have melee weapon only Dreadnoughts
Dreadnoughts are particularly dumb.
In 2nd any Dreadnought could could have two fists.
In 3rd only Blood Angels could take the two fist Furioso.
In 4th Codex: Black Templars shows a two fist dreadnought which they can't take, and Dawn of War features melee Dreads for Blood Ravens.
In 5th vanilla Marines get the Ironclad.
Also in 5th Blood Angel Furiosos can swap a fist for a gun which defeats the whole point.
In 7th Space Wolves get melee Venerable Dreadnoughts, and a special character which is basically hairy Moriah the Chosen (who Blood Angels can't take since 3rd).
How many different Dreadnought entries are there now? Are we over 20 yet?
Perfect illustration of what I meant by “It's a rule artifact”. The specific details of which dread loadouts are available for which chapters are a rule artifact.
Mmmpi wrote: I do disagree. I think they haven't encouraged making your own chapter on a rules level. On a creation level, they release tons of articles every year about custom building and converting models to make personalized units/chapters/regiments/craftworlds.
But way less than they do on established, first founding chapters, and the two big second founding chapters.
Firstly I find it bizarre that only one chapter and it’s successor can have melee weapon only Dreadnoughts
Dreadnoughts are particularly dumb.
In 2nd any Dreadnought could could have two fists.
In 3rd only Blood Angels could take the two fist Furioso.
In 4th Codex: Black Templars shows a two fist dreadnought which they can't take, and Dawn of War features melee Dreads for Blood Ravens.
In 5th vanilla Marines get the Ironclad.
Also in 5th Blood Angel Furiosos can swap a fist for a gun which defeats the whole point.
In 7th Space Wolves get melee Venerable Dreadnoughts, and a special character which is basically hairy Moriah the Chosen (who Blood Angels can't take since 3rd).
How many different Dreadnought entries are there now? Are we over 20 yet?
Perfect illustration of what I meant by “It's a rule artifact”. The specific details of which dread loadouts are available for which chapters are a rule artifact.
Mmmpi wrote: I do disagree. I think they haven't encouraged making your own chapter on a rules level. On a creation level, they release tons of articles every year about custom building and converting models to make personalized units/chapters/regiments/craftworlds.
But way less than they do on established, first founding chapters, and the two big second founding chapters.
Exactly. We only need three:
1. Basic Dread with option for Ven upgrade
2. Ironclad with option for Ven upgrade
3. Contemptors
I don't believe every chapter should have access to every unit, or else your chapter selection is just a paint job. Yes Blood Angels have Sanguinary Guard and Death company, but we don't get Centurions or Thunderfire cannons and I'm fine with that. Those units don't fit the rapid assault theme of a Blood Angels army but would be perfectly suited for the Imperial Fists.
Also considering the dreadnoughts, the Furiosos are our Venerable dreads. We don't get ordinary venerables or ironclads.
Definitely other dreads should have the dual ccw option though, that's just wierd.
Brotherjulian wrote: I don't believe every chapter should have access to every unit, or else your chapter selection is just a paint job. Yes Blood Angels have Sanguinary Guard and Death company, but we don't get Centurions or Thunderfire cannons and I'm fine with that. Those units don't fit the rapid assault theme of a Blood Angels army but would be perfectly suited for the Imperial Fists.
Every other chapter is just a paint scheme. Every sept is a paint scheme. Every hive fleet, GSC, Ork Clan, Dynasty, craftworld, etc etc...
They are all just paint schemes. These 3 are the only outliers. The argument you have is a bad one and doesn't hold up under the slightest scrutiny.
You and I don't agree. I don't WANT my BA to have every option the same as somebody's Smurfs. If I did, I'd play those. The character of the army is different from regular tactical marines and I don't want the lines blurred
the existance of chapter tactics across various codices, the fact that there's clearly a market for chapter supplements etc, suggests to me that over all the market wants more flavor for subfactions not less.
Brotherjulian wrote: You and I don't agree. I don't WANT my BA to have every option the same as somebody's Smurfs. If I did, I'd play those. The character of the army is different from regular tactical marines and I don't want the lines blurred
BA are ostensibly a codex adherent chapter, at least most of their fluff has held to that. Yeah they have a couple unique bits, but if the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers (all substantially and dramatically more divergent forces from each other than the BA are from the UM's) can share a codex through every edition, one would think it should be possible for BA's without much fuss.
Brotherjulian wrote: You and I don't agree. I don't WANT my BA to have every option the same as somebody's Smurfs. If I did, I'd play those. The character of the army is different from regular tactical marines and I don't want the lines blurred
BA are ostensibly a codex adherent chapter, at least most of their fluff has held to that. Yeah they have a couple unique bits, but if the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers (all substantially and dramatically more divergent forces from each other than the BA are from the UM's) can share a codex through every edition, one would think it should be possible for BA's without much fuss.
So are the Dark Angels - to quote from the latest White Dwarf: p.31
The Dark Angels are, for the most part, strict adherents to the Codex in terms of their Chapter' structure.
They deviate somewhat with the 1st and 2nd Companies - but so do many Chapters who had not attention cosntantly lavished upon them (to in my opinon their deterement).
Bingo. Deathwing aren't even that unique in the grand scheme of things.
I don't even like the separate Terminator armors having separate entries. The different Power Armors don't have different rules and those have distinct fluff on how one works compared to the other.
Also considering the dreadnoughts, the Furiosos are our Venerable dreads. We don't get ordinary venerables or ironclads.
Definitely other dreads should have the dual ccw option though, that's just wierd.
If other Dreadnoughts can have dual close combat weapons, what's the point of keeping the Furioso as a separate unit?
Why shouldn't Blood Angels have Venerable Dreadnoughts? They used to have that option.
Why wouldn't Blood Angels use Ironclads? Don't they fight sieges? Why wouldn't a close assault oriented Chapter use the close assault oriented Dreadnought (Oh, might it be because the Ironclad overlaps the Furioso's niche and creates a redundant option..?)
Why wouldn't Thunderfire Cannons fit the Blood Angels' theme, if they get Whirlwinds, Devastators, Rapiers, Hellblasters, etc.? They can strap a Thunderfire Cannon to a Land Raider hull, but don't have any as standard? Don't assault Centurions fit the close assault theme? The Blood Angels have as many Devastator squads as the Ultramarines do, so why wouldn't they use devastator centurions too?
