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 Mmmpi wrote:
That's not a rules artifact. It would be a rules artifact if they didn't change it as the core rules changed.

What?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.

Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.

You'd hardly need to double the size of the book given that two thirds of it (at least) is shared among all marines (bolters, rhinos, plasma guns, predators, dreadnoughts, land speeders, cyclone missile launchers, and most of the basic fluff loke the creation of space marines, etc), and the size of the book is a relatively minor part of the cost.

Looking at GW's current pricing of books, the page counts they have, that of other games and companies, it's really hard to see where a combined SM codex would come out at any significantly higher price point than any other codex. Maybe at worst it's $50 or 60 instead of 40? Even then I suspect they'd keep it about the same as the others, if for no other reason than to keep the main product line accessible, and it's certainly not going to be anywhere near $200, or even $100.

I don't expect we will ever see a single combined SM book for various other (mainly business cycle) reasons, but price isnt one of them.

Considering just the unique units (not characters) from each run 10-15 pages of datasheets, plus 5 pages of characters, plus a page for special rules, plus two pages for stratagems (instead of four when you include the generics), a page for relics, a page for P.Powers, a page for WL traits, six pages for paintjobs, maybe 10-15 for fluff. The minimum there is 37 pages. Maximum is 47. That's per army, so it would be 37-47 pages each for BA/DA/SW. That's 110-141 pages, and I'm frankly lowballing paint jobs and fluff. That's also not including any pages needed for wargear and weapons.

So I stand by my claim. Just like I did several pages ago when this was first discussed.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
That's not a rules artifact. It would be a rules artifact if they didn't change it as the core rules changed.

What?

A rules artifact is a rule that exists from a previous edition that doesn't work because the core rules it depended on changed. It's the lack of change (when change is needed) that makes it what it is, not the fact that it gets updated frequently.

It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

It's 10 pages, because they're all unique. Except in your imagination. So that's right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Nice stealth edit.

Your insulting tone doesn't really help your argument Princess.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.

Oh wait...it isn't.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.

Oh wait...it isn't.

Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....

A lot of those 'can take wargear' things have no reason to be unique. There is no reason that all Terminators can't mix weapons, they used to be able to do that, and in Space Hulk they still do. There is no reason for only BA being able to take hand flamers, heavy flamers and inferno pistols. It is really crazy that Salamanders can't do that. Stupid pointless limitations.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.

Oh wait...it isn't.

Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....

Which one unit gets, and another doesn't. Just because you want your Ultramarines to have deathwing, doesn't mean they should.


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 Crimson wrote:
A lot of those 'can take wargear' things have no reason to be unique. There is no reason that all Terminators can't mix weapons, they used to be able to do that, and in Space Hulk they still do. There is no reason for only BA being able to take hand flamers, heavy flamers and inferno pistols. It is really crazy that Salamanders can't do that. Stupid pointless limitations.

In your opinion.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.

Oh wait...it isn't.

Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....

Which one unit gets, and another doesn't. Just because you want your Ultramarines to have deathwing, doesn't mean they should.

I already have Deathwing because I have Dark Angels army - for about the million fething time.

"Sigh" can you stick to facts and not invent nonsense. ALSO Keywords are a thing Mate.

Just because you (for some wierd selfish reason I don't understand) want to stop other Chapters being properely represented does not mean that they should not be.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.

Oh wait...it isn't.

Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....

Which one unit gets, and another doesn't. Just because you want your Ultramarines to have deathwing, doesn't mean they should.

I already have Deathwing because I have Dark Angels army - for about the million fething time.

"Sigh" can you stick to facts and not invent nonsense. ALSO Keywords are a thing Mate.

Just because you (for some wierd selfish reason I don't understand) want to stop other Chapters being properely represented does not mean that they should not be.

Sure dude.

Keywords are a thing. Based on army and unit type, ect.

Except you're the one removing armies. People can already use Wolfen to represent black dragons. Just use the SW rules. Same for the rest.

So, yeah. I'm going to keep sticking to the facts.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

Agreed, except for those "unique" units that SHOULD be available as a base unit, to allow more variety on other chapters, like all the different flavors of bestial marines.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

Agreed, except for those "unique" units that SHOULD be available as a base unit, to allow more variety on other chapters, like all the different flavors of bestial marines.

They really don't need to be available as a base unit. Just use the codex that best fits your personal chapter idea.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Except you're the one removing armies. People can already use Wolfen to represent black dragons. Just use the SW rules.

But then black dragons get ALL the differences and additional restrictions between Space Wolves and normal Marines, many of which make no sense for them.
But you don't care about them because they are not a special snowflake chapter...


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 Mmmpi wrote:
They really don't need to be available as a base unit. Just use the codex that best fits your personal chapter idea.

They really need to be available as a base unit. In a codex designed around the idea that people create their own chapters. With supplements for people who want to use an established chapter instead of creating their own.
The other marines chapters were never designed with the idea of creating your own chapter in mind!!!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Except you're the one removing armies. People can already use Wolfen to represent black dragons. Just use the SW rules.

But then black dragons get ALL the differences and additional restrictions between Space Wolves and normal Marines, many of which make no sense for them.
But you don't care about them because they are not a special snowflake chapter...

Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.

There is another issue with consolidation that is GW typically overreacting: I'm talking about Rule of 3 that already impact Deathwing and Ravenwing (for example) that are saved by their special unit...

But I'm seriously thinking how to field a White Scars army when you can have 3 biker units tops. Consolidation will require and impede any iteration of Rule of 3.
That's without mentioning the fact that if GW can sell you almost the same rule with a slight difference they will do so.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.

They don't receive any kind of special, preferential treatment. They are just slightly more deviant from the codex than average. Nothing special snowflake about this.

You just really don't like the idea of people creating their own chapters, do you? You'd rather people play one of the pre-established chapter.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

It's 10 pages, because they're all unique. Except in your imagination. So that's right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Nice stealth edit.

Your insulting tone doesn't really help your argument Princess.

I never did a stealth edit, and never edit unless I find grammar issues in my posts. So I have no idea what you're on about, but you got the last part of my sentence in terms of attitude right, so...

And no it is NOT 10 pages. Remove the silly units that aren't much different and you're good. After all, Furiosos were already basically Ironclads in terms of stats since AV values were a thing. It won't kill you to use it as an Ironclad with the two different fists being either Chainfist or Seismic Hammer. It's a lot simpler than you're making it to be

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.

They don't receive any kind of special, preferential treatment. They are just slightly more deviant from the codex than average. Nothing special snowflake about this.

You just really don't like the idea of people creating their own chapters, do you? You'd rather people play one of the pre-established chapter.

They're not special snowflakes to GW. They're special snowflakes to the people who want special treatment for them. There are already several easy to do ways to build them using existing codexes, but that's apparently not good enough. Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

It's 10 pages, because they're all unique. Except in your imagination. So that's right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Nice stealth edit.

Your insulting tone doesn't really help your argument Princess.

I never did a stealth edit, and never edit unless I find grammar issues in my posts. So I have no idea what you're on about, but you got the last part of my sentence in terms of attitude right, so...

And no it is NOT 10 pages. Remove the silly units that aren't much different and you're good. After all, Furiosos were already basically Ironclads in terms of stats since AV values were a thing. It won't kill you to use it as an Ironclad with the two different fists being either Chainfist or Seismic Hammer. It's a lot simpler than you're making it to be

So remove the silly units. Ok, we have 10 pages. Remember, YOU think they're silly. Others do not.

They are silly, and the people that don't think they're silly, like you, like rules for the sake of rules when said rules don't work and honestly never have.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.

Because the game is currently build so that, at least for marines, you are VERY encouraged to use an already established, first or second founding chapter instead of creating your own. Which I think sucks, big time.
And consolidating would encourage people to make a more personal choice, by taking some of the lesser known chapters or creating their own.

Cybtroll wrote:There is another issue with consolidation that is GW typically overreacting: I'm talking about Rule of 3 that already impact Deathwing and Ravenwing (for example) that are saved by their special unit...

But I'm seriously thinking how to field a White Scars army when you can have 3 biker units tops. Consolidation will require and impede any iteration of Rule of 3.
That's without mentioning the fact that if GW can sell you almost the same rule with a slight difference they will do so.

Minor point, and one made without reading the new WS supplement - I seem to recall that they weren't just about the bikes, but about rapid movement all round. Units in transports, Scout Bikes, air-cav would all fit with that general theme (unless something was radically altered in the supplement, of course)

Crimson wrote:There is no reason for only BA being able to take hand flamers, heavy flamers and inferno pistols. It is really crazy that Salamanders can't do that. Stupid pointless limitations.

Well, BA do have the original Inferno Pistol in the game - thank you, Dante - when it was meant to be a special bit of kit, so that one makes a bit of sense. Less so since the SoB nicked it, but I digress.

Salamanders did have a supplemental army list back in Codex: Armageddon (3rd edition, IIRC?), alongside Speed Freeks, Black Templars and Steel Legion. I quite like the rule that allowed a Salamanders player to force a game to go beyond the normal game length by a turn. The reduction in Initiative wouldn't be a factor today, though Sturdy might affect Advance or even Charge rolls now.

Black Templars made it out from Armageddon into their own 'dex. The Steel Legion and Speed Freeks forces were (aside from a couple of options) available within the next iteration of their codex. I'm guessing there wasn't enough interest shown in the Salamanders during Armageddon for GW to think they were viable as a solo Codex, which is why they were folded back into the SM book without most of the differences (like the stat changes) in future versions.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.

Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.

You'd hardly need to double the size of the book given that two thirds of it (at least) is shared among all marines (bolters, rhinos, plasma guns, predators, dreadnoughts, land speeders, cyclone missile launchers, and most of the basic fluff loke the creation of space marines, etc), and the size of the book is a relatively minor part of the cost.

Looking at GW's current pricing of books, the page counts they have, that of other games and companies, it's really hard to see where a combined SM codex would come out at any significantly higher price point than any other codex. Maybe at worst it's $50 or 60 instead of 40? Even then I suspect they'd keep it about the same as the others, if for no other reason than to keep the main product line accessible, and it's certainly not going to be anywhere near $200, or even $100.

I don't expect we will ever see a single combined SM book for various other (mainly business cycle) reasons, but price isnt one of them.

Considering just the unique units (not characters) from each run 10-15 pages of datasheets, plus 5 pages of characters, plus a page for special rules, plus two pages for stratagems (instead of four when you include the generics), a page for relics, a page for P.Powers, a page for WL traits, six pages for paintjobs, maybe 10-15 for fluff. The minimum there is 37 pages. Maximum is 47. That's per army, so it would be 37-47 pages each for BA/DA/SW. That's 110-141 pages, and I'm frankly lowballing paint jobs and fluff. That's also not including any pages needed for wargear and weapons.

So I stand by my claim. Just like I did several pages ago when this was first discussed.

There's tons of ways to compact that, both in terms of editing and game design, without squatting anything. Also, lets be real, even if some stuff gets dropped or changed, that happens to some extent with every update, combined book or not.

Even an extra hundred pages or doubling its size is not going to turn a $40 book into a $200 one. If FW can put out a book covering multiple Heresy era Legions over 300 pages with nonstandard sizing and leather binding and foil edging and metal corners and parchment paper pages for $115, I don't see where a main studio Codex book is going to come anywhere close.

You can stand by that assertion, but working in a business that does major printing, looking at GW and FW's offerings, and those of other gaming companies, that assertion does not appear to line up with any other examples or experiences I can see.

Mr Morden wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's 4 pages of unique units max once you remove the ones that really aren't unique. So that's wrong.
Queue the "DeAtHwInG aRe ToTaLlY uNiQuE" crew to come and chime in.

Agreed. Most so called "unique" units have one or two minor differences to the base unit.......

Because the ability to take wargear other units can't is such a minor thing.

Oh wait...it isn't.

Its called a unit option - so yes its a super minor thing which can be tied (or not) to Keywords.....

Mmmpi wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Otherway around. They are a special snowflake chapter.

They don't receive any kind of special, preferential treatment. They are just slightly more deviant from the codex than average. Nothing special snowflake about this.

You just really don't like the idea of people creating their own chapters, do you? You'd rather people play one of the pre-established chapter.

They're not special snowflakes to GW. They're special snowflakes to the people who want special treatment for them. There are already several easy to do ways to build them using existing codexes, but that's apparently not good enough. Keep in mind there are nearly as many BA players (and DA and SW) players as generic marine players. There might be 100 players who want to play the dragons.

I've never seen a BA or SW army(or successors)in my area and I only know 2 DA players. But I've seen tons of non snowflakes, IF, CF, IH, + a ton of custom(before cool rules) & I play Salamanders. Sooo.....?


GW unfortunately have "painted themselves into a corner" with how long they've favored BA/DA/SW. Now that they've shown interest in other chapters/legions, some people fear they'd lose their "special"ness if the Marine component of all chapters were unified(like they should) and any touchyfeely specialness be distilled out of codex into a supplement.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?

they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
The current SM book is bigger. Add in double the content.

Looking at GW's website, the newest SM book is 192 pages, and is $40. Looking at other codex books, the IG codex is $40, and is 144 pages. No difference in cost despite the SM codex having a third more pages.

.

and the previous space marine codex was considerably bigger and cost 10 bucks more. that's the thing, codex space marines ahs already approuched the point of being almost too big. the supplements where done as an excuse to move the chapter unique stuff out side the core codex to cut down on page count.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?

they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized

Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?

they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized

Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.

they could strip the number of sheets down and have 4 seperate kits repsresent the same thing, but I bet that doesn't sell as well.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?

they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized

Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.

they could strip the number of sheets down and have 4 seperate kits repsresent the same thing, but I bet that doesn't sell as well.

Well seeing as I use stock Mk3 dudes for my Sternguard, I'm already hurting their business model.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?

they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized

Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.

they could strip the number of sheets down and have 4 seperate kits repsresent the same thing, but I bet that doesn't sell as well.

Well seeing as I use stock Mk3 dudes for my Sternguard, I'm already hurting their business model.

don't those guys cost more then the basic tac marine kit?

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. Raven Guard players have to pay for Salamanders and Imperial Fists stuff they don't use. Should they get a separate codex?

they do now. GW specificly removed the chapter specific stuff and stuck them in a seperate codex. which BTW was proably done because codex space Marines had gotten over sized

Which was their own undoing. Honestly we didn't need Incursors and separate entries for the Phobos HQ units, and in reality the Chapter specific units could've been condensed to 3-4 per Chapter. It's just a bunch of bloat now and it's actually super obnoxious.

they could strip the number of sheets down and have 4 seperate kits repsresent the same thing, but I bet that doesn't sell as well.

Well seeing as I use stock Mk3 dudes for my Sternguard, I'm already hurting their business model.

don't those guys cost more then the basic tac marine kit?

Not when you have enough Burning of Prospero copies and sell off the Custodes and Terminators you don't need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and the Sisters of course. You can sell those but it's a lot harder.