"Unique" Units of the Wolves and Angels

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**WhiteDog**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Ravenwings are not using the same units - they have two specific land speeder, a specific bike unit, two specific HQ, and the DA's air units are not pilotted by techmarines but by ravenwing DA, and thus are part of ravenwing (and are specific to DA).

I don;t have the current Codex- how different are they to the baseline units? (Not including HQ's)

Black Knights are bikes armed with plasma talon (assault 2 18" plasma weapon) and corvus hammer (+1 Str -1 AP d3 dmg on a 6) and the sergeant can take a melta bomb. They are like elite bike. The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

In the 3rd, the ravenwing was just a group of normal bike in black. Nowadays it's not the case imo.

Well seeing as the Bikers are still really the same and the Land Speeders can be consolidated into a single unit entry with the options, and that the Jetfighter behaves the same as the Talon...what's your argument?

Black Knight have one extra attack (and they all have 8 in Cd), and the land speeder darkshroud/vengeance move up to 12" and not 16 like normal land speeder, but have T6 and not T5, and three more wounds (from 6W to 9).

They are very different and can't be "consolidated" into a single entry.

**HoundsofDemos**

Not a dark angel player but the bikes are literally not the same, they have a bunch of options that are not in the standard codex.

As for just consolidating the speeders and flyers how does that work when the kits are literally different in both physical size and option. If someone put down a standard landspeeder and said this is a darkshroud at best I consider that a one time proxy and then I'd want them to go out and buy the proper model.

Same with the flyers, they are a different size and have very different armaments.

**Stux**

I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

**Mr Morden**

WhiteDog wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Ravenwings are not using the same units - they have two specific land speeder, a specific bike unit, two specific HQ, and the DA's air units are not pilotted by techmarines but by ravenwing DA, and thus are part of ravenwing (and are specific to DA).

I don;t have the current Codex- how different are they to the baseline units? (Not including HQ's)

Black Knights are bikes armed with plasma talon (assault 2 18" plasma weapon) and corvus hammer (+1 Str -1 AP d3 dmg on a 6) and the sergeant can take a melta bomb. They are like elite bike. The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

In the 3rd, the ravenwing was just a group of normal bike in black. Nowadays it's not the case imo.

Well seeing as the Bikers are still really the same and the Land Speeders can be consolidated into a single unit entry with the options, and that the Jetfighter behaves the same as the Talon...what's your argument?

Black Knight have one extra attack (and they all have 8 in Cd), and the land speeder darkshroud/vengeance move up to 12" and not 16 like normal land speeder, but have T6 and not T5, and three more wounds (from 6W to 9).

They are very different and can't be "consolidated" into a single entry.

So they are veterans on Bikes with a few weapon options?

The Dark Shroud does seem somewhatmore different.

And the Terminators rules wise are different?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

Please read the OP- strangely enough its also about giving people more options rather than just a few codex armies for no real reason.

**WhiteDog**

Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Ravenwings are not using the same units - they have two specific land speeder, a specific bike unit, two specific HQ, and the DA's air units are not pilotted by techmarines but by ravenwing DA, and thus are part of ravenwing (and are specific to DA).

I don;t have the current Codex- how different are they to the baseline units? (Not including HQ's)

Black Knights are bikes armed with plasma talon (assault 2 18" plasma weapon) and corvus hammer (+1 Str -1 AP d3 dmg on a 6) and the sergeant can take a melta bomb. They are like elite bike. The land speeder vengeance have two huge plasma canons and utterly suck ass, the darkshroud is a land speeder with a heavybolter/assault canon that give a -1 to hit 6" bubble and has a cool lore.
As for the dark talon and the nephilim they are very different from the storm talon.

In the 3rd, the ravenwing was just a group of normal bike in black. Nowadays it's not the case imo.

Well seeing as the Bikers are still really the same and the Land Speeders can be consolidated into a single unit entry with the options, and that the Jetfighter behaves the same as the Talon...what's your argument?

Black Knight have one extra attack (and they all have 8 in Cd), and the land speeder darkshroud/vengeance move up to 12" and not 16 like normal land speeder, but have T6 and not T5, and three more wounds (from 6W to 9).

They are very different and can't be "consolidated" into a single entry.

So they are veterans on Bikes with a few weapon options?

The Dark Shroud does seem somewhatmore different.

And the Terminators rules wise are different?

Deathwing terminators have the inner circle rule (one of the few unit totally immune to moral). They can take both close combat and long range weapons in a unit, they can take a watcher in the dark that gives them some kind of save against psychic powers, and have access to the plasma cannon (DA are huge fans of plasma for lore reasons - they have a tons of old tech). Deathwing Knight are close combat specialists with unique weapons (something like a thunder hammer but with no malus to hit and a flail +2 str -3 AP D2 with no damage lost). There's also a deathwing apothecary, a deathwing ancient and a deathwing champion that have no equivalent in other chapters (and are all elite, not HQ).

**Mr Morden**

So Deathwing Terminators:

You give the ability to mix weapons in all Marine Terminator Squads
Add an option for fearless
Add Plasma Cannon to options

Also add an option in the DA Armoury for "Watcher in the Dark"
Deathwing Knight Option in armoury

Done. Nothing lost, more options for others

The Elite Deathwing - what in the fluff makes them different from Elite (elite) terminators that other Chapters would have. Why would some Chapters not have Ancients in Teminator armour but called something else.

**BrianDavion**

Mr Morden wrote:
I own reasonable Dark Angels and Wolves armies (about 3000pts each) and some Blood Angels (about 1500pts).

There has always been alot of discussion of the "unique" units that have been given to the Angels and Wolves to make their codex fuller and boost sales, especially since the "basic" marine range has been complete for years (one of the reasons for Primaris).

However looking at the actual units - how many of them are actually in any way unique, how many would not actually be represented in some form in other Chapters both in terms of Lore and game stats.

The Librarian Dreadnoughts are only in one chapter? Really?
No other Chapter has Sargeants leading squads in Terminator armour? Isn't that an Iron Hands thing too?
No other Chapter has more flexible teminator squads mixing close and ranged combat versons?
No other Chapter has mutations like Wolfen - isn't that a Black Dragons thing
No other Chapter rides beasts (much as I hate Wolves on Wolves) to battle?

Surely the basic unit templates for pretty much every Unique unit could and should be expanded to include these slight variations, with the relevant Chapter Keyword allowing access to a few other special rules /armoury should cover anything else?

What am I missing here. What would be lost by allowing those units be represeted in other Chapters?

It would also remove the problems of trying to cater for fans of these Chapters wanting everything plus their own "unique" units to make them Marines+ or having to have lesser versions of the same unit so that the three Chapters can retain a sense of specialness.

thanks

the horse is dead, stop beating it.

seriously, this argument has been had how many times now? give it a rest.

**Mr Morden**

BrianDavion wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
I own reasonable Dark Angels and Wolves armies (about 3000pts each) and some Blood Angels (about 1500pts).

There has always been alot of discussion of the "unique" units that have been given to the Angels and Wolves to make their codex fuller and boost sales, especially since the "basic" marine range has been complete for years (one of the reasons for Primaris).

However looking at the actual units - how many of them are actually in any way unique, how many would not actually be represented in some form in other Chapters both in terms of Lore and game stats.

The Librarian Dreadnoughts are only in one chapter? Really?
No other Chapter has Sargeants leading squads in Terminator armour? Isn't that an Iron Hands thing too?
No other Chapter has more flexible teminator squads mixing close and ranged combat versons?
No other Chapter has mutations like Wolfen - isn't that a Black Dragons thing
No other Chapter rides beasts (much as I hate Wolves on Wolves) to battle?

Surely the basic unit templates for pretty much every Unique unit could and should be expanded to include these slight variations, with the relevant Chapter Keyword allowing access to a few other special rules /armoury should cover anything else?

What am I missing here. What would be lost by allowing those units be represeted in other Chapters?

It would also remove the problems of trying to cater for fans of these Chapters wanting everything plus their own "unique" units to make them Marines+ or having to have lesser versions of the same unit so that the three Chapters can retain a sense of specialness.

thanks

the horse is dead, stop beating it.

seriously, this argument has been had how many times now? give it a rest.

Well in the words of facvourite tv character -

your not my supervisor!

So I can, I believe discuss whatever I like on this forum as long as it stays on topic and no rules are broken?

Given we are once again being drowned in Marine stuff I think its reaonable topical.

Feel free to contribute or not.

**Insularum**

Once upon a time (2nd ed), this basically wasn't much of a thing - Ultramarines could take terminator veteran sergeants (Chaos could do it too) and most of the unique units we see today were pretty much unique in name only. The only truly unique stuff other than named characters was pretty much:
1. Ultramarines had a veteran tac squad (proto sternguard)
2. Blood Angels had a veteran assault squad (proto vanguard), and the Death Company
3. Dark Angels had 3 colour schemes and a slightly different weapon load out on the landspeeder model
4. Space Wolves got the very first standalone codex and have always been the odd one out

20+ years of the big four being poster boys for the entire franchise has led to minor differences becoming a bit exaggerated; for example originally all terminator squads had the option to be mixed load out - but only DA/SW ever had a mixed load box set so you rarely saw anything else.

**Dysartes**

BrianDavion wrote:
the horse is dead, stop beating it.

seriously, this argument has been had how many times now? give it a rest.

I'm pretty sure he and Slayer-Fan are determined to be Syndrome here.

**Apple Peel**

Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

A big problem is that “consolidate the marines” means different things to different people.

Some think it means to be rid of chapter unique units/options and put it all in one book.

Some think it means to take units that are not “unique” enough and give them to everyone, but still bring everything into one book.

Some think it means to take all the data sheets and rules with (or maybe without) some minor tweaks and make a light brick of a book.

Some think it means to do what GW is currently doing with the Codex Space Marines and supplements.

It should be clarified

**bullyboy**

The Deathwing situation is a little different. I feel that all chapters should be able to mix and match heavy/close combat weapons, that shouldn't be a DW only thing.
However, Deathwing Knights are a thing and no other army has them. Since we don't have non terminator infantry in the First Company, I think this is a good thing.

**Stux**

Apple Peel wrote:
Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

A big problem is that “consolidate the marines” means different things to different people.

Some think it means to be rid of chapter unique units/options and put it all in one book.

Some think it means to take units that are not “unique” enough and give them to everyone, but still bring everything into one book.

Some think it means to take all the data sheets and rules with (or maybe without) some minor tweaks and make a light brick of a book.

Some think it means to do what GW is currently doing with the Codex Space Marines and supplements.

It should be clarified

It can't be clarified - because everyone wants different things. That has been and will continue to be the case.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bullyboy wrote:
The Deathwing situation is a little different. I feel that all chapters should be able to mix and match heavy/close combat weapons, that shouldn't be a DW only thing.

Oh sure, it doesn't HAVE to be that. What I like is that the differences in their lore lead to some kind of mechanical difference in the datasheet. I love that stuff, it makes interacting with the game a richer experience for me. I don't really care if it's this mechanic specifically in this instance, I would obviously prefer it to be something I would use more.

**Luke_Prowler**

I'm certainly of the opinion that most of the options added to the snowflake codexes were done solely to justify themselves and are often ridiculously (Space wolves being the most egregious example) and I don't think I (or the two you mentioned) am the only one who think something like Murderfang detracts from those armies rather than adds to them.The options might not even be taken by the players using that codex, and seem to only care about them when a topic like this shows up in which case they will defend them to the hilt!

Whats worse is that the existence of the unique options seem to result in similar options being precluded from other chapters. it makes sense for White Scars to have biker veterans and the supplement would have been a good place to make them. But apparently only Dark Angels are allowed to have them in order to protect that uniqueness. Something like heavy flamers for Salamanders Tacticals makes since considering their association with the forge and close combat, but only Blood Angels have access to. I get that "No model, no rules" is part of that, but as I said in my first point these models were only added to justify that uniqueness.

Mr. Morden isn't arguing to remove all these options, it's possible to still have an element of loreful differences, and my problem has been a pursuit of uniqueness for a smaller group at the expense of others. It is not "pettiness", as people try to characterize it as.

**Lance845**

Supposedly the primaris stuff fixed the defects in the geneseeds. So Wulfen and Blackrage and whatever are just gone once everyone has either been replaced with primaris recruits or been upgraded to a primaris.

Then you have the wolf riders. Which is neat but now the primaris space marines are half again as big as their regular marine cousins. Unless there are new bigger wolves thats going to come to an end.

Everything else is just stuff everyone should have. Or won't even be an issue anymore. Terminator armor won't exist, it will be gravis or whatever other thing they come up with. Paint them bone colored and now they are Deathwing. Paint the inevitable Primaris Bikes black and you have Ravenwing.

**BrianDavion**

it's strongly implied that Crawl perhaps over promised re Primaris. remember Primaris Marines are maybe 2? 3 hundred years old tops (stasis doesn't count) we didn't see a TON of these geneseed flaws cropping up until the heresy or later with regular Marines, it could be Cawl's added stability just means he bought the chapters with sevre geneseed issues another few centuries.

**Mmmpi**

Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

it generally is petty.

It's also the same group, bringing it up over and over.

**Martel732**

Cawl should just use super-future-CRISPR to fix flaws in real time. Problem solved.

**BrianDavion**

Mmmpi wrote:
Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

it generally is petty.

It's also the same group, bringing it up over and over.

in Mrr Morden's case his reason for it is obvious, he seems to think if marines are consolidated we'll see less releases and more "deserving (read as his prefered factions) will get more releases

**Irbis**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Whats worse is that the existence of the unique options seem to result in similar options being precluded from other chapters. it makes sense for White Scars to have biker veterans and the supplement would have been a good place to make them. But apparently only Dark Angels are allowed to have them in order to protect that uniqueness. Something like heavy flamers for Salamanders Tacticals makes since considering their association with the forge and close combat, but only Blood Angels have access to. I get that "No model, no rules" is part of that, but as I said in my first point these models were only added to justify that uniqueness.

This. It's kind of dumb. And 8th edition isn't even that bad in this regard, speshul snowflakes were really comical in 7th edition (like that DA banner somehow conjuring more bullets out of thin air, or DA snowflake termies somehow touching their tiny storm shields ogether to somehow create perfect surround barrier granting better invulnerable save all around because only special snowflake training lets you touch two bits of metal that in fluff vaporize anything they touch, eh?). You basically felt they had nonsense rules that had nothing to do with fluff, rules, or even models, they were just terribad attempts at justification why new box had Termies +3, please buy them now. There is literally no reason why White Scars can't mount two plasma pistols instead of bolters on bike, or why Fist/Hands termies wouldn't be able to do shieldwall formation when both literally do that in fluff already anyway, the rules were just one gigantic middle finger shown to players of all other SM...

Martel732 wrote:
Cawl should just use super-future-CRISPR to fix flaws in real time. Problem solved.

Except Cawl explicitly left alone stuff he couldn't understand and the bits he felt were the original intent of the Emperor. So, he tried to deal with black rage but the red thirst and canis helix were apparently WAD so were left as is. Sure, he could go and fix flaws every few centuries but he was working with Heresy era stock, sooner or later he is bound to run out.

**Mmmpi**

BrianDavion wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:
Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

it generally is petty.

It's also the same group, bringing it up over and over.

in Mrr Morden's case his reason for it is obvious, he seems to think if marines are consolidated we'll see less releases and more "deserving (read as his prefered factions) will get more releases

Yup. Not that having a consolidation of unlike units would ever actually accomplish that.

**BrianDavion**

Mmmpi wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:
Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

it generally is petty.

It's also the same group, bringing it up over and over.

in Mrr Morden's case his reason for it is obvious, he seems to think if marines are consolidated we'll see less releases and more "deserving (read as his prefered factions) will get more releases

Yup. Not that having a consolidation of unlike units would ever actually accomplish that.

hell the priamris stuff, which I'll note has been ALL the space marine releases in 8uth edition (excluding like 3 leuiteants) is pretty much universal to all space marine codices.

**captain collius**

Mr Morden wrote:
Stux wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Stux wrote:
I for one would want to continue having unique stuff for unique chapters. It makes them much more enjoyable to collect and play for me.

Even if they are not unique?

Which do you think are "unique" to the various Chapters and would have no counterpart?

Depends on your standard for 'no counterpart'.

I consider Deathwing Knights unique, though obviously they are very similar to a specific loadout of Assault Terminators. But those small changes help sell that the unit is 'special'. If the only difference was fluff then I wouldn't feel that.

Likewise with Deathwing Terminators mixing regular weapons and melee in the same unit - I never actually do it, but I see it on the datasheet and think "huh, cool. That tells me something unique about the organisation of the chapter" I am intrigued.

There are some somewhat unique units then such as Black Knights and Dark Talons. The base unit exists, but they have equipment that changes how they are used quite a bit.

Truly unique units? We have the Darkshroud of course, which has no analogue in any other chapter. And of course character Landspeeders which again really help sell the unique organisation of the Ravenwing.

For me it's not good enough to say "let the lore do the work". Mechanics make lore feel real.

I don't understand - you need the actual unit options (that you never actually take ??) to make you interested in the unit rather than just the lore - why do you need the datasheet to tell you about the organisation when that is the entire point of the lore element of a codex?

Ummm yeah.

The lore gives back story to the models. I pick the models cause they are cool the lore tells me why they look that way.

**Sgt_Smudge**

captain collius wrote:
Ummm yeah.

The lore gives back story to the models. I pick the models cause they are cool the lore tells me why they look that way.

Lovely, no-one's saying that there can't be unique sculpts for those models. But why can't other Chapters, who's lore also suggests that they might also have access to a unit like that, not get to take a similar unit?

No-one's saying "you don't get to have any specially sculpted Deathwing models" or suchlike, it's more of a "great, you can have some cool models, with rules that cover them, and I'll also be able to use them with a different Chapter, and I'll convert them to look more like the elite unit from my Chapter!"

**BrianDavion**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
captain collius wrote:
Ummm yeah.

The lore gives back story to the models. I pick the models cause they are cool the lore tells me why they look that way.

Lovely, no-one's saying that there can't be unique sculpts for those models. But why can't other Chapters, who's lore also suggests that they might also have access to a unit like that, not get to take a similar unit?

No-one's saying "you don't get to have any specially sculpted Deathwing models" or suchlike, it's more of a "great, you can have some cool models, with rules that cover them, and I'll also be able to use them with a different Chapter, and I'll convert them to look more like the elite unit from my Chapter!"

I imagine the realistic answer is Sales.

**captain collius**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
captain collius wrote:
Ummm yeah.

The lore gives back story to the models. I pick the models cause they are cool the lore tells me why they look that way.

Lovely, no-one's saying that there can't be unique sculpts for those models. But why can't other Chapters, who's lore also suggests that they might also have access to a unit like that, not get to take a similar unit?

No-one's saying "you don't get to have any specially sculpted Deathwing models" or suchlike, it's more of a "great, you can have some cool models, with rules that cover them, and I'll also be able to use them with a different Chapter, and I'll convert them to look more like the elite unit from my Chapter!"

Then those models likely wouldn't sell. It's an argument about wanting to have everything. Allies fixed a lot of wanting the things. In theory. Just use whatever book and write your own army fluff it's just as easy. Also if you combine the lists I'm putting dark angels on lions and blood angels on giant Honey Badgers.

**AngryAngel80**

Ok this whole topic is a little meh ?

If you want to run say, black dragons with dragon wulfen, you can, just use the space wolf rules with dragon based upgrades and lizard like wulfen types, boom, jobs done.

You want the BA goodies, run a different chapter and use the BA rules, there you go.

Want the special units for DA ? I think you get what I'm going to say, get the book, make up the models and do it.

The power is yours, you don't need GW to tell you its ok to do so.

**AnomanderRake**

Stux wrote:
I just really cannot understand what the point of consolidating everything is though. If this was a time before the models had been made, maybe it would be worth talking about. But now, why not just let people have their toys even if they're only a little different?

Just comes across as petty in all honesty.

Look at 30k. One big core book with all the units available to all the Space Marines. Eighteen 'supplements' containing Legion-specific rules, unique units, named characters, etc., fifteen of which (to date) have been helpfully consolidated into another big red compilation book.

The problem with 40k's approach is that there's so much redundancy between books that GW starts deleting things to justify printing extra books (back in 4e two-special-weapon Tacticals were a thing anyone could have, now it's Space Wolves only, for instance). The second problem is that it requires GW to place certain First Founding chapters on a pedestal above others where if you're a Blood Angel, Dark Angel, or Space Wolf you get a whole range of models and an entire Codex, while if you're an Imperial Fist, Salamander, etc. you get one model and a paragraph in the Ultramarines book about how you also exist. If there was one central Codex and a body of supplements for everyone more people would get rules because GW wouldn't have to justify writing an entire extra Space Marine Codex to throw (Chapter (X)) a bone.

**Breton**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

As a matter of interest, for all the people who support Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels having unique units, what's your verdict on the Ultramarines now getting Honour Guard exclusive to them?*

Its where they started. I'm not going to complain too loudly if they finally tell people to stop taking my unique stuff and stop using it in counts-as.

As for opening up Wulfen, and Sanguinary Guard for everyone - maybe not so much. I wouldn't mind a system like they set up for Design Your Own Vehicle or Special Character in the Chapter Approved for narrative missions. Even a more organized one - Start with this unit/stat line, pick this many divergences from these lists in that ratio. These are worth X points, those are worth Y, and Some Others are Z - While other chapters may have some sort of animal hybrid were-wolf crossover thing going on, nothing says their animal hybrid crossover would affect the same stats on the stat-line. Werebears might have more Toughness/Wounds while a werewolf might have more Attacks and movement.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnomanderRake wrote:
The second problem is that it requires GW to place certain First Founding chapters on a pedestal above others where if you're a Blood Angel, Dark Angel, or Space Wolf you get a whole range of models and an entire Codex, while if you're an Imperial Fist, Salamander, etc. you get one model and a paragraph in the Ultramarines book about how you also exist.

I haven't seen one yet, but my impression is the White Scars book is still one model, but at least you get two paragraphs saying you exist - and had to shell out for your own book.

**BrianDavion**

I haven't seen one yet, but my impression is the White Scars book is still one model, but at least you get two paragraphs saying you exist - and had to shell out for your own book.

actually white scars get 30 pages of fluff. if you love white scars for the background, the supplement is a pretty big treat.