I’ve been sticking with a couple close combat mixes that I really like. They aren’t very creative but have been effective against my normal opponents (necrons, thousands sons, Custodes, tons of marines).
10 x Veterans w/ Blackshield, 2 x Heavy Thunder Hammers on the Sarge and Blackshield, 2x Storm Shield and Chainsword.
8 Veterans, Sarge w/ Hyperphase Sword and Storm Shield, Blackshield w/ dual Claws, 2x Stormshield and Chainsword.
These units go in a Corvus or Rhino with Character support. I’ve been using two Librarians so I can pack along Null Zone and Psychic Fortress with the excellent Deathwatch powers. I remember fighting units of 5+/5++ Nobs with power klaws back in the day and the two hidden characters in these units reminds me of those same ‘thorn in the side’ kind of characters. The extra damage is good against the masses of Scarabs, Skorpekhs, Custodes, Dreadnaughts and Terminators that seem so prevalent.
I’ve used the 3x Cyclone, 4x Missile Launcher squad a few times but the D6 damage really skews things sometimes. They are good for hitting a model like Redemptors or Telemons hard enough that I can finish them with a good charge but I’ve been struggling with the general application of force that my shooting in my armies have so far. They also do well against 3W squads but armies that make good use of cover can be a real struggle.
I’ve had consistency from the 3x power weapon bikes and 2 x Stormshield Vanguard, and used the 3x Assault Cannon Termies, + 2 Storm Bolter terminators and 5 Storm Bolter vets with the troop killing tactics against Necrons and it has been the best answer to the teleporting warrior blobs I have found. With Cultists still being used en masse and my Custodes buddy starting to bring sisters with his new shield of the imperium or-whatever-host I think the dakka squads will maybe see more time. I’ve been wondering about putting 4 frag cannons in the squad now that they are a bit cheaper, and that’s a lot of S6 shots to wound those Heavy Bolter/Multi Melta bitches on 2’s...
Eradicators have been ok to deal with so far mostly because I have a lot of fast moving hammers in my army (I take a few in a Van Vet squad as well). We also have good access to flat 3 damage weaponry on characters that can be sprinkled around that the slower moving or close combat oriented 3W models scare me less than they did at the beginning of 9th. The worst things I have to deal with now are the 6 man inceptor squads which I feel like I basically concede to upon sight at this point. When they are willing to bring these kinds of squads I think Deathwatch struggle a lot. If the game sees any shift toward tanks like the Reaper, Predators or multiple whirlwinds I think it’s a tough game. I have an admech army as well and don’t know how I’d fight the horsemen and objective camping lists I’ve been concocting.
I am honestly very pleasantly surprised by the naked Power Sword and Boltgun and want to kick myself often when I don’t stick with it. The S5 and pushing most units off their save or comfortably into their invulnerable save makes them slick. I’ve gotten lucky a few times with Null Zone and don’t think that trick will work much anymore, but with the brotherhood of vets most other space marine units really need to think twice about charging us, and I’ve really liked that they have the ability to dig units out of cover better; it’s really noticeable against the armies 8m up against, especially the raised rubrics who typically take the middle of the table and still get all is dust vs my D1 swords.
Watch Master - Backline Warlord, mostly enables the Strat to change target
Primaris Bike Chaplain - Smash captain of 9th so far. Really shines with Outrider Fortis and can Beacon well.
Captain with Aegis - Ideally with a Jump Pack but excellent support and counterpunch.
Librarian - 2 excellent powers from our discipline make him a solid choice.
Apothecary - It's pretty easy to chain the Outriders back to him. With the WLT, he pays for himself VERY quickly.
Company Champion - He's not.... great, but a cheap Aegis/Charge Reroll that takes an Elite slot instead of HQ.
The 3 HQ limit hurts, though I think a 4th is hitting support bloat anyway. I have not decided who best to drop, though my first two picks currently are the Captain and Chaplain. The librarian often gets the axe just because the Apothecary is so good and failing his powers really hurts.
Kill Teams
Fortis - Outriders are an obvious go to. . The footprint of 5 of them is hilarious and lets you do all kind of goofy things while being a serious melee threat. You can actually keep the 10 man together better than expected and abuse ablative wounds which can really help them take advantage of our buffs. Hellblaster teams aren't bad, but feel like lesser Eradicators (as do most things)
Spectrus - Eliminators with a Helix Gauntlet that provide a deepstrike bubble are nice. Optimal? Less certain, but they make a cool unit regardless. I think an optimal list will likely end up including one unit of these teams with 5 Incursors instead. I see a lot of success with a pair of concealed position units taking early objectives in 9th for marines in general. Being able to run both units with the 12" denial zone for 15 points left seems like a pretty solid advantage.
The Primaris stuff tends to be pretty straightforward. Mix your base with 5 of something else and go from there. I haven't really worked out the most optimal Proteus team and haven't worked too much on Heavy Intercessors, but I usually use a Fortis/Spectrus and play around with a 3rd or 4th.
Dreadnaughts
Redemptor - really powerful in general and even better with our rerolls and an invul. Powerhouse unit in general in 9th.
Ven Dread - a bit more dedicated to anti-tank, but very efficient Las platform.
Leviathan - I need to really run the numbers on this guy, but he seems to be very efficient still. Competes well with the Redemptor from what I've seen, but really wishes it was Core.
Others
Bladeguard and Eliminators are both just really powerful units. The latter can wind up in our Gravis team eventually, but dropping Bladeguard on an objective can do a solid job holding it down.
Personally, I've been doing two Fortis teams, bringing 10 outriders and pairing with a bike chaplain. They have been amazing objective holders, and with +1 to wound on the charge (from chaplain) paired with furor and chapter trait against troops, in the assault doctrine they blend up even a 20 man warrior blob (average 23).
Many have pointed out that they are not as points efficient as veteran bikers and don't hit as hard as other fast options (vvets mainly).
But I want a beefy chunky ob sec unit that can blend troops, and survive the punchback. As long as you keep them in dominus aura and or hit them with fortitude, they take crazy amount of punishment.
I pair them with two groups of inceptors... been working nice.
There's a pretty decent argument that Proteus does it better with 3 Vet Bikers and a couple VanVets. I definitely think there's some truth to it, but it does depend a bit on what buffs you're stacking.
LunarSol wrote: There's a pretty decent argument that Proteus does it better with 3 Vet Bikers and a couple VanVets. I definitely think there's some truth to it, but it does depend a bit on what buffs you're stacking.
Im firmly in this camp. You may get a few fewer wounds, but T5 2+/4++ obsec infantry that can kool aid man through walls (among all the other cover related bonuses they can acquire) while also packing LCs or Hammers of your preferred persuasion and being eligible for fallback shoot and charge shenanigans are hellaciously valuable disruptor units. Being able to not only be legitimate melee threats but ObSec on a mobile platform as well is the kind of combination that wins games in 9th.
The fact that they do it to the tune of 50-ish or more points cheaper than the Outrider blob (depending on your loadout) is icing on the cake.
I'm really digging the idea of some Indomitor teams with Eradicators deep-striking in to support a trio of Redemptor dreadnoughts. Everything is tough, and its a lot of anti-tank/anti-elite firepower. My main concern is the lack of melee weapons available to Heavy Intercessors, which I'm trying to cover with support characters and the dreads. What else should I look out for in a list like this?
Jump pack captain w/ teeth of terra & vigilance incarnate
Primaris chaplain on bike (smash variant)
5x Heavy Intercessors + 4x Eradicators
5x Heavy Intercessors + 4x Eradicators
5x Heavy Intercessors + 5x Plasma Inceptors
3x Redemptor Dreads w/ Onslaughts and rocket pods
Primaris Apothecary w/ upgrade
Company Champion w/ Dominus Aegis
For a smash captain, I imagine you'd want a Paragon(Salamanders)+Sword of the Imperium Teeth of Terra build. Puts you at 9 attacks on the charge of Str8 -2AP 2D. Alternate option is Paragon(Space Wolves) for only Str6 attacks, but +1 attack and +1 to wound when attacking a vehicle or monster. Makes you a little worse at killing marines (in this meta?!) but a little better against tanks and tyranids (because you're worried about Xenos... lol...) Or you can keep the Salamanders +2S trait and hit your smash cap with the +1 to wound litany from a friendly biker chaplain when it would matter.
Dominus Aegis is a relic for a defensive support captain, you don't want to be leashing your cruise missile to a mass of infantry to share the 5++, you want to loose that beast on a priority target and burn it down.
LunarSol wrote: There's a pretty decent argument that Proteus does it better with 3 Vet Bikers and a couple VanVets. I definitely think there's some truth to it, but it does depend a bit on what buffs you're stacking.
Im firmly in this camp. You may get a few fewer wounds, but T5 2+/4++ obsec infantry that can kool aid man through walls (among all the other cover related bonuses they can acquire) while also packing LCs or Hammers of your preferred persuasion and being eligible for fallback shoot and charge shenanigans are hellaciously valuable disruptor units. Being able to not only be legitimate melee threats but ObSec on a mobile platform as well is the kind of combination that wins games in 9th.
The fact that they do it to the tune of 50-ish or more points cheaper than the Outrider blob (depending on your loadout) is icing on the cake.
Sorry can you tell me more how you get a t5 2+/4++ blob?
5 DWV with ss + 5 vet bikers?
They would only be as mobile as the DWV allowed, and you'd get 1 blob which is more expensive than the combat-squaded outruders, (taking only the value of the outriders)..
If you're giving a squad member a storm shield, he's likely to die before the non shielded members, thus you're better off putting special weapons on the non shielded members. Ergo, a vanguard veteran in a kill team carrying a storm shield ought likely be carrying a chainsword or deathwatch bolter to keep the model as cheap on points as possible. If you're spending points on special weaponry (unless it's a heavy thunder hammer, which precludes use of a storm shield), give them to the bikes.
Ah nice, down side is your start Nevis are temporary, but that does seem pretty hot in terms of options. How do you gear the vets? Ss/lc?
I'd almost certainly find the 6 total points for a claw apiece. If you're *really* tight on points you can go with chainswords. Their primary role is disruption, but giving them a melee bite that can scare somewhat beefier targets is points well spent IMO.
ryzouken wrote: If you're giving a squad member a storm shield, he's likely to die before the non shielded members, thus you're better off putting special weapons on the non shielded members. Ergo, a vanguard veteran in a kill team carrying a storm shield ought likely be carrying a chainsword or deathwatch bolter to keep the model as cheap on points as possible. If you're spending points on special weaponry (unless it's a heavy thunder hammer, which precludes use of a storm shield), give them to the bikes.
Bikers in a Proteus Kill Team can only choose to take a Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Power Sword, Power Axe or Power Maul. They cannot take special or combi-weapons (the Sergeant can, but he isnt a legal option for a kill team). Likewise, VanVets cannot take bolters or combi-weapons.
Leth wrote: I would personally go relic blade instead of xenophase, but really it just depends on what you expect to send him after.
Yeah, I like the Relic Blade option as well, but taking away most every saving throw completely and still getting to D2 seems pretty nifty. It's likely a meta call, but most things worth sending a captain against probably have at least a 5++. I do like both, but the Xenophase stands out as something unique.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ryzouken wrote: For a smash captain, I imagine you'd want a Paragon(Salamanders)+Sword of the Imperium Teeth of Terra build. Puts you at 9 attacks on the charge of Str8 -2AP 2D. Alternate option is Paragon(Space Wolves) for only Str6 attacks, but +1 attack and +1 to wound when attacking a vehicle or monster. Makes you a little worse at killing marines (in this meta?!) but a little better against tanks and tyranids (because you're worried about Xenos... lol...) Or you can keep the Salamanders +2S trait and hit your smash cap with the +1 to wound litany from a friendly biker chaplain when it would matter.
Dominus Aegis is a relic for a defensive support captain, you don't want to be leashing your cruise missile to a mass of infantry to share the 5++, you want to loose that beast on a priority target and burn it down.
Good options as well, but I think for the most part a Captain is too expensive to be just support, particularly if they have a jump pack (and without I've seen them mostly get stranded mid game) . It doesn't cost all that much to give him some bite to contribute, though its definitely not the smashiest thing out there.
The main thing I've started to lean on is that if I have a captain, its probably where I want the Aegis and I'm not really getting another Captain. The Champion is really the only cheap place for it otherwise and while I think he's an interesting option, the lack of utility beyond the Aegis itself makes him quite a bit less than the real thing even at nearly a third of the points.
ryzouken wrote: If you're giving a squad member a storm shield, he's likely to die before the non shielded members, thus you're better off putting special weapons on the non shielded members. Ergo, a vanguard veteran in a kill team carrying a storm shield ought likely be carrying a chainsword or deathwatch bolter to keep the model as cheap on points as possible. If you're spending points on special weaponry (unless it's a heavy thunder hammer, which precludes use of a storm shield), give them to the bikes.
Bikers in a Proteus Kill Team can only choose to take a Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Power Sword, Power Axe or Power Maul. They cannot take special or combi-weapons (the Sergeant can, but he isnt a legal option for a kill team). Likewise, VanVets cannot take bolters or combi-weapons.
My apologies, my wording was imprecise. By special weapons I meant the special close combat weapons. Power swords, for instance, are particularly nifty with that +1S. The van vets not having access to bolters is a good catch, I was commenting away from codex and have been focusing more on primaris than firstborn. My point there was, if you expect to take the shield bearing van vets as casualties first, keeping them as cheap as possible makes a great deal of sense as you're otherwise investing points into models with short time to live.
The new Primaris shinies just got more expensive. Not at all surprised really, but it will be interesting to see how people react to pretty significant bumps in their cost.
Inceptors probably taking the biggest hit from that given the numbers they were being run in. Eradicators are still in the viability range, especially for DW.
Sterling191 wrote: Inceptors probably taking the biggest hit from that given the numbers they were being run in. Eradicators are still in the viability range, especially for DW.
It makes them make a little more sense beside Aggressors now at least. Those guys had been pretty heavily outclassed outside of their melee potential. Not sure if either is really in the running anymore, but its more of a choice at least.
Is there any scope for deathwatch using the while we stand we fight change to combat squad cheap troops and expensive elites then hide the troops?
I'm thinking for example a Fortis kill team of 5 bikes and 5 intercessors. About a 350pt unit? Keep the intercessors at the back out of harm's way best you can?
Indomitor kill team could be good option too, already very difficult to kill all that gravis.
Seems very doable. Apothecary/Librarian/Aegis can give us some really sturdy units even without Combat Squadding.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Currently thinking about this list. I’ve got 10 points left since the Eliminators and Outriders haven’t been updated that will probably turn into a Power Fist on the Intercessors. Also probably spend another CP on a WLT. Any thoughts?
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
+ Stratagems +
Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics
+ HQ +
Captain [6 PL, 110pts, -1CP]: Astartes Chainsword, Jump Pack, Master-crafted boltgun, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched, Teeth of Terra, The Imperium's Sword, Warlord
. 2. Paragon of their Chapter: Salamanders: Anvil of Strength
Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 4. Mantra of Strength, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, The Beacon Angelis
LunarSol wrote: Seems very doable. Apothecary/Librarian/Aegis can give us some really sturdy units even without Combat Squadding.
Gonna concur with this. Proteus teams behind a wall of shields, or Indomitors backed up by Invulns, FNPs and restoratives make for an interesting approach to the Secondary.
1. Take a Spectrus Kill Team.
2. Put 5 Eliminators in it.
3. Give them all Las Fusils.
4. Combat Squad them into their own unit.
5. Take a Phobos Librarian.
6. Put Soul Sight on them + Shrouding.
Do I now have 5 Las Fusils that can't be shot at unless they're the closest target and re-roll hits?
1. Take a Spectrus Kill Team.
2. Put 5 Eliminators in it.
3. Give them all Las Fusils.
4. Combat Squad them into their own unit.
5. Take a Phobos Librarian.
6. Put Soul Sight on them + Shrouding.
Do I now have 5 Las Fusils that can't be shot at unless they're the closest target and re-roll hits?
Yes that's correct. Shrouded phobos units are also a good candidate for optimised priority to double up on usefulness, just bear in mind the opportunity cost of not using a librarian to access the very useful xenopurge discipline.
1. Take a Spectrus Kill Team.
2. Put 5 Eliminators in it.
3. Give them all Las Fusils.
4. Combat Squad them into their own unit.
5. Take a Phobos Librarian.
6. Put Soul Sight on them + Shrouding.
Do I now have 5 Las Fusils that can't be shot at unless they're the closest target and re-roll hits?
Yes that's correct. Shrouded phobos units are also a good candidate for optimised priority to double up on usefulness, just bear in mind the opportunity cost of not using a librarian to access the very useful xenopurge discipline.
I'm a little late on the draw, but a Deathwatch list just took a spot midway in the 5-2 bracket in a large event down under. For context, out of a nearly 80 player field only five went 6-1 or better.
It's an interesting, albeit somewhat unorthodox list. Inceptors and Redemptors covered by a Libby's 5++ with Infiltrators and a Spectrus team for board presence and pressure if I'm understanding how it operates correctly. Xenophase slash cappy for wrecking face, a Jump MoS on Beacon Duty and the Libby is toting the Auspicator to deal with things like Harlequin bikes I expect.
Interesting list. Largely its Marine goodstuff, which admittedly, is what DW is now.
HQ loadout seems to be what is working out to be our best trio with a Captain/Librarian/Chaplain. I think we'll start seeing bikes over Jump Packs eventually, but the abilities are all solid. If only we could have a Master with a Shield. Tome and Beacon are pretty standard with the Auspicator being the Harlequinn meta pick. I suspect that's also the main draw to the Xenophase blade. Surprised there's no Apothecary, but there aren't great targets for it in this list. Callidus is an interesting choice. Always fond of assassins; they're just pricey these days.
Double Redemptor is solid; a bit sad there's no Aegis for them though. Inceptors still shine at killing marines and are increasingly a competitive staple.
Intercessors are a bit of an odd choice. The shoot twice strat may be enough to take them over a KT I suppose. Infilitrators continue to shine in Marine lists in general. Curious how well the Eliminators work for him or if it would be better to just take 5 Incursors in a Spectrus.
All in all, solid list obviously. I see things I want to be different, but my own list often comes to 2200 points so its a matter of what to cut. It'll be interesting to see if Gravis makes a difference.
LunarSol wrote: Interesting list. Largely its Marine goodstuff, which admittedly, is what DW is now.
HQ loadout seems to be what is working out to be our best trio with a Captain/Librarian/Chaplain. I think we'll start seeing bikes over Jump Packs eventually, but the abilities are all solid. If only we could have a Master with a Shield. Tome and Beacon are pretty standard with the Auspicator being the Harlequinn meta pick. I suspect that's also the main draw to the Xenophase blade. Surprised there's no Apothecary, but there aren't great targets for it in this list. Callidus is an interesting choice. Always fond of assassins; they're just pricey these days.
Double Redemptor is solid; a bit sad there's no Aegis for them though. Inceptors still shine at killing marines and are increasingly a competitive staple.
Intercessors are a bit of an odd choice. The shoot twice strat may be enough to take them over a KT I suppose. Infilitrators continue to shine in Marine lists in general. Curious how well the Eliminators work for him or if it would be better to just take 5 Incursors in a Spectrus.
All in all, solid list obviously. I see things I want to be different, but my own list often comes to 2200 points so its a matter of what to cut. It'll be interesting to see if Gravis makes a difference.
The more I look at this, the more I'm convinced this is a list built to go headhunting for Assasinate +/- Abhor the Witch, which likely plays into the decision to deploy Eliminators over cheaper bodies in the Spectrus formation. Two different Invuln ignoring melee threats plus souped up snipers mean that an opponent has to be seriously cagey with both movement and screening, or otherwise you're easily down linchpin support pieces plus 9+ VPs.
Wouldn't be able to go for Abhor with the Librarian in there, correct?
I am curious if there's something behind a trio of Eliminators with a Phobos captain for heavy character sniping. Probably not worth it, but it sounds fun. I think the 5 Incursors option is probably ideal for mission overall but Eliminators are a lot more fun.
I am curious if there's something behind a trio of Eliminators with a Phobos captain for heavy character sniping. Probably not worth it, but it sounds fun. I think the 5 Incursors option is probably ideal for mission overall but Eliminators are a lot more fun.
I'm personally a big fan of a souped up Phobos captain, but it's not the most competitive choice. For FLGS and casual games though, they're a great pick and I fully intend to run one alongside Spectrus lads for maximum head popping
Honorable mention to Crusade as a format because I believe you can push them to flat 6D over the course of a campaign.
LunarSol wrote: Wouldn't be able to go for Abhor with the Librarian in there, correct?
I am curious if there's something behind a trio of Eliminators with a Phobos captain for heavy character sniping. Probably not worth it, but it sounds fun. I think the 5 Incursors option is probably ideal for mission overall but Eliminators are a lot more fun.
That Phobos Captain can get pretty dangerous, but prone to bad luck, from what I can see. His gun can get +2 flat damage added onto it (Marksman's Honors and the Special Issue Wargear that lets him use SIA for +1 more damage). 5 damage is kind of hilarious. Could easily still be 4 damage and always wound non-vehicle/titanic on a 2+ too. He would suffer from Vindicare syndrome though (despite always hitting on 2's and wounding on 2's and ignoring invulns, a Vindicare only has like a 49% chance to successfully wound something).
Sorry, when I'm talking about a trio of Eliminators I'm talking about 3 Spectrus teams. I'd want a Phobos captain just to provide them with rerolls from anywhere on the board.
LunarSol wrote: Sorry, when I'm talking about a trio of Eliminators I'm talking about 3 Spectrus teams. I'd want a Phobos captain just to provide them with rerolls from anywhere on the board.
LunarSol wrote: Sorry, when I'm talking about a trio of Eliminators I'm talking about 3 Spectrus teams. I'd want a Phobos captain just to provide them with rerolls from anywhere on the board.
A 6/4 Spectrus formation is ~ 270 points or so. Even accounting for a Phobos captain you've still got half your list to play with. Digging 30 Primaris bodies behind a 1+ cover save out of the midboard isnt an easy thing to do.
On a Deathwatch Captain with Jump Pack, why do I want to give him a Storm Shield?
(I ask in reference to the player who ran one with the Xenophase sword build, which I love).
He already has a 4++ so the 10pt shield just gives +1 to saves, which in my gaming world only ever applies when the small stuff takes a whack at him and he will be escorted around the board
On a Deathwatch Captain with Jump Pack, why do I want to give him a Storm Shield?
(I ask in reference to the player who ran one with the Xenophase sword build, which I love).
He already has a 4++ so the 10pt shield just gives +1 to saves, which in my gaming world only ever applies when the small stuff takes a whack at him and he will be escorted around the board
If you are already planning on running with a screen, the dominus aegis is worth a look and is well worth keeping a shield for. Regardless of relic or escort though - the +1 to saves is worth it alone, your cap's biggest threat is likely going to be return fire, and against AP0 your cap is only as tough as 2.5 marines without that save boost.
Now that we can double dip on relics though I am considering alternatives to the shield - as well as a MC xenophase sword he could swap the default bolt pistol to purgatorus and grab a fusion pistol on the side.
We play casual in our group and we tend to get 2 to 3 rounds in. I have the 55pt Company Champion with a Watch Master and two Redemptors using the Aegis.
In our games my elite guys are always hit with -3 AP weapons so the +1 is meaningless as his 4++ Iron Halo is there.
Good info, I am thinking of giving him a Thunder Hammer along with the Xenophase sword so he can threaten the bigger stuff. Just replace the shield since its only giving a +1 for 10 points.
2 to 3 turns means we have to go more all out and I have a lot of other threats moving up quickly so they will have to pick.
Yeah that would be perfectly fine in casual play - if things start getting more serious though remember that the hammer isn't much better unless the target is really big as the hit penalty and low AP will offset a lot of the gain from strength and damage it brings (you trade very accurate for very woundy and ignore almost all saves for high damage) - without getting stuck into maths I would estimate that the target would have to be at least T7 to see a noticeable difference between either weapon and someone else could be carrying that same hammer to give you the benefit of having both.
I feel better having the Company Champion if I'm just going with the Teeth slash captain. I like the guy, but 55 has to come from somewhere.
Honestly, more and more I'm feeling like something like the Indomitus Captian or something similar with more of a buff focus serves us better than going the offensive route. If only we could take a master with the Dominus.
It's interesting that we've got so many "pick 3 of 4" kind of choices in the army. I think of all of them, the Captain loadout is definitely the hardest one to nail down.
The Xenophase sword really only makes sense if you mastercraft it. D1 is kind of a dealbreaker for 10 points otherwise. Inferno Pistol is an interesting option. Hadn't really considered it, but the price is right.
They're probably a bit at odds with one another though. The other downside of the Xenophase blade is that it takes a lot to get the strength up to armor cracking levels. I suppose there's nothing wrong with giving a character a melta to the face though.
I'm definetly Master crafting it via the Castellan of the black vault Warlord trait.
I have the Beacon on him, but not sure if I like it as much as using some combo of the Armor Indomitus and shield or shield eternal.
The Infernus pistol may be solid, but my god I can't make up my mind! :-)
* Edit: What value do you guys place on adding a wound to a warlords stats? (via something like Armor Indomitus) and if it has value does adding Armor Indomitus and a storm shield interest anyone? (+1 Wound, save is a 2+ with a +1 to save and a 1 turn 3++
Useful, but hard to justify when we've got the Tome, Beacon and Aegis. 3 excellent relics that have strong competition elsewhere make the Indomitus a hard pick, IMO.
In my list I have the Aegis. I'm not a fan of the Tome along with most one use, CORE items, but the beacon would be useful as a ten man unit of chainsword SIA gun wielding blasters lined up next to a jump captain.
I'm starting to see a pattern for me in simple terms = Offense or Defense for the Captain. Hmmmmm
Da-Rock wrote: ...The Thunder Hammer is situational because I'm only using it against something T7 or higher or something with a lot of wounds and no real saves.
Wound an Xenosphase sword and inferno pistol be better than a Thunder Hammer?
In the tourney list I guess there is a chance that might of heroes is the answer to T7, as the sword would be at S7 then, for emergency use only if there were no other anti-tank weapons available.
The sword seems broadly better than the hammer vs anything less than T7, so yeah I guess sword plus pistol would stay true to that although you could still take pistol(s) with the hammer so if I were you I'd weigh up what you are more likely to face and what you want your captain to be hunting.
I'm starting to lean towards a double pistol build mainly for the very situational times where there may be two characters giving out overlapping auras (think captain/lieutenant), purgatorus and an inferno pistol would have a solid chance of taking out the weaker character before charging the stronger one, then potentially try and consolidate into something nearby. That's very niche though, a shield will generally be more reliable.
Da-Rock wrote: In my list I have the Aegis. I'm not a fan of the Tome along with most one use, CORE items, but the beacon would be useful as a ten man unit of chainsword SIA gun wielding blasters lined up next to a jump captain.
I'm starting to see a pattern for me in simple terms = Offense or Defense for the Captain. Hmmmmm
Yeah, you can either have them dive in in a blaze of glory or hang back and buff. Personally, I don't think we have better unique options for the latter, though the core problem is just that the Watch Master can't take a shield so we can't take one of each quite like we'd like.
After many hours of pondering I decide for a middle ground that was more defensive for a tiny chance it would have a reaction from opponents.
Armor Indomitus + Storm Shield = 6 Wounds with a 2+ 3++ 4++ and a +1 to saves.
I can see this making it hard on an opponent in deciding to use his best to attack it or to stay away from him with his characters...which may allow me to pin them down with my x2 Whirlwinds and x4 Eliminators.
Dont discount the durability of what a 2+ base armor save and an innate +1 to said armor saves means. AP1 is the achilles heel of most 2+ defensive statlines, and straight up ignoring that is massive.
In casual games, that fella is prepped to do work.
Finally got in a game of Deathwatch in 9th edition against BA. Deathwatch took home the win after my opponent capitulated at the end of turn 4. The all-star squad was a Spectrus Kill Team with a Helix Adept paired with 4 Eliminators and a mine toting Incursor with the remaining Infiltrators. The Helix Adept saved3 wounds over the course of a game and an Apothecary brought back the only Elim. that went down. The infiltrators prevented several units from deep strike and didn't go down until the bottom of turn 3. The mine exploding a Sang Guard was worth it's points and helped the Infiltrators survive an extra fight phase.
The Devestator build for the Proteus Kill Team was surprisingly effective against vehicles and BGV's as well. 4 launchers and three CML Terminators can throw out a lot of krak missiles and a few ablative bodies helped keep them afloat.
Hellblasters felt a little flat. I'm not feeling the Fortis team.
Da-Rock wrote: I thought the Helix was FAQd to only work on Infiltrators and not Eliminators or Incursors. Did I misread that?
The Helix will protect any model in the unit. Normally, that's only Infiltrators, but the Spectrus formation allows it to extend to other types depending on how you build said Kill Team.
I think the last codex/pre-DW version of infiltrators had a FAQ stating that the gauntlet (helix adept back then?) couldn't be used on other units back when it worked more like a mini-apothecary with healing and reviving, but that's way out of date now.
Insularum wrote: I think the last codex/pre-DW version of infiltrators had a FAQ stating that the gauntlet (helix adept back then?) couldn't be used on other units back when it worked more like a mini-apothecary with healing and reviving, but that's way out of date now.
I seem to remember something like that back in 8th, so I can understand the confusion.
Now it says "Once per turn, the first time a saving throw is failed for the bearer's unit, the Damage characteristic of that attack is changed to 0." Thankfully, that means the wording leaves it perfectly capable of applying to a Spectrus Kill Team.
A lot of talk since the Goonhammer called us out as underperforming. I can definitely see why compared to chapters that are given more of a clear directive on how to play but its an interesting discussion regardless.
One thing that stands out to me is the tendency to overspend on characters. I keep finding myself considering up to 600 points in the guys, but it seems like 300-400 really needs to be the top. I find myself struggling to pick just 3 HQs and an Apothecary, but I'm curious if we really need to go down to just 2-3 characters tops.
LunarSol wrote: A lot of talk since the Goonhammer called us out as underperforming. I can definitely see why compared to chapters that are given more of a clear directive on how to play but its an interesting discussion regardless.
There's a lot of factors to that, chief of which is sample size. Deathwatch are a niche faction, and suffer most from other Marine chapters siphoning off playspace. I dont mean that from a rules perspective, I mean that from a player perspective, especially in the competitive environment (which is where most of Goonhammers data is drawn from). The primary strength of the faction is also why it's not getting traction IMO. Deathwatch live and die by their flexibility, which makes them a high ceiling / low floor army. We dont have a superdoctrine that pushes us ahead of the pack on a particular playstyle, which means they're not going to attract attention for being "assault marines" or "shooty marines", etc.
Now there's definitely rules reasons that are proving to be a handicap (looking at you SIA), but I dont know that fixing them would alter the overall environment too much. I think we'll see some noticeable, albeit non-spectacular, shifts in standing efficacy once the Heavy Intercessor models become available (the Indomitor team is a key asset that just cant be played in a competitive setting at the moment unless you're willing to spend an obscene amount of time and money converting).
Yeah, absolutely agree, though the numbers haven't been particularly great on TTS either where model limits aren't really an issue.
None of it really surprises me, I just think its interesting to take a look at what players can do to push the faction further, which to me comes down to optimizing what we've got. I think a lot of our kill teams probably aren't as efficient as they could be I suppose. Looking at my own list, I can probably see around 300 points of bling that's probably better turned into something more efficient.
Maybe though, that's the whole problem/point. I don't make those cuts because the army is more fun to lose with with the bling, than win with by turning it into something that could easily slap a different paint scheme on and have a better tactic. It's mostly a curiosity for me, but its definitely becoming clear that GW played it a little safe with some of our heavy handed restrictions.
Quick question since I'm still waiting for my supplement to even ship, let alone get here:
The Space Marine Codex says you can use one of the secondaries in the book for Matched Play. Reviews say the Deathwatch Supplement has secondaries too (some good ones too, from what they write).
Can you select both a Codex secondary and a supplement secondary in the same battle or is there language in the Deathwatch supplement preventing you from choosing one if you also choose a Space Marine Codex secondary?
Audustum wrote: Quick question since I'm still waiting for my supplement to even ship, let alone get here:
The Space Marine Codex says you can use one of the secondaries in the book for Matched Play. Reviews say the Deathwatch Supplement has secondaries too (some good ones too, from what they write).
Can you select both a Codex secondary and a supplement secondary in the same battle or is there language in the Deathwatch supplement preventing you from choosing one if you also choose a Space Marine Codex secondary?
You can pick a maximum of one of each, but it requires you to be in a pure army (no soup), and have a Deathwatch warlord.
Audustum wrote: Quick question since I'm still waiting for my supplement to even ship, let alone get here:
The Space Marine Codex says you can use one of the secondaries in the book for Matched Play. Reviews say the Deathwatch Supplement has secondaries too (some good ones too, from what they write).
Can you select both a Codex secondary and a supplement secondary in the same battle or is there language in the Deathwatch supplement preventing you from choosing one if you also choose a Space Marine Codex secondary?
You can pick a maximum of one of each, but it requires you to be in a pure army (no soup), and have a Deathwatch warlord.
That is what I am aiming for. This is quite interesting and opens up a long of strategic depth I think!
I think one of the big weaknesses of our book is honestly just that the secondaries aren't particularly enticing and are all kind of "win more".
Xeno killing is okay but requires a LOT of kills to be worth it. It's useful, but highly situational.
Cripple Stronghold is just insane. It requires your opponent somehow being unable to contest an objective of their choosing in their deployment zone for multiple turns in a 5 turn game. I cannoth fathom getting this.
Purge's big issue is your opponent picks 2 of the 3 roles and can easily deny it from you.
Long Vigil's biggest weakness is the 5 turn game. You've got 4 chances to score it and it really doesn't require much from your opponent to stop you.
I like Xeno killing in it's matchups, but Long Vigil seems to be the clear beat of the pack and not a rough one for scoring to boot. It's not something to pick on every map, but something like the Scouring would be a good time to pick it I think.
Conversely, I think the only good Space Marine one is Oath, but that's not saying a ton. If you kill multiple vehicles/monsters/characters in one turn it's still just 1 point. You're basically saying 'hey opponent, I'm gonna camp something dead center'. Sometimes you don't mind doing that, but other times you don't want to lock yourself in like that
Conversely, I think the only good Space Marine one is Oath, but that's not saying a ton. If you kill multiple vehicles/monsters/characters in one turn it's still just 1 point. You're basically saying 'hey opponent, I'm gonna camp something dead center'. Sometimes you don't mind doing that, but other times you don't want to lock yourself in like that
Oaths is very strong, but mostly because it's reliable. With a good plan and a well built list you can readily grab 10+ VP against most comers with a single small unit. No small thing to have in your back pocket against certain opponents.
I've actually been looking at it as a combination with While We Stand, and just go hard in on a pair of Proteus teams geared for durability. For 4 objective maps you can task one holding a flank objective, the other holding the middle, and then just daring an opponent (who hopefully isnt playing Slaaneshi demons) to come and try and shift you. Built and supported correctly, Deathwatch units can approach Custodian levels of durability. I really do think there's play there.
Jackal444 wrote: Cripple Stronghold is the worst secondary in the game, CMV
The only play I see for Cripple Stronghold is if you bring lots of artillery and Phobos. You use artillery to clear the objective and force the enemy to keep pushing more and more units to the Stronghold. If they don’t, you use Guerilla Warfare to port any cheapo Phobos unit straight to it and perform the action. Then they absolutely MUST get back to the objective or else you get 6vp.
This means they either abandon another objective, or they let you secure the VP. You can also use Tremor Shells to tag whichever unit you suspect will be used to contest the Stronghold immediately after deploying the Guerilla Phobos team. The thing that makes it even remotely viable, in my mind, is that it’s 6vp, so you can pull this in the 4th and 5th rounds to get to 12/15 when the board is much clearer of chaff that could contest the action.
None of this is particularly easy to do, so I doubt it’ll be used much, if ever. There is a psychological factor to it that is kind of interesting, though.
I put my deathwatch project on the backburner for a couple of months, noticed in goonhammer they were saying people haven't really tapped the power from the codex yet.
What are people finding success with?
The beacon seems great but I'm not sure what the best play with it is? Pulling eradicators into melta range first turn? Or are people holding off and bringing through a nasty melee threat.
Feel like if we want to get charges off from a proteus melee they're better off being delivered in a corvus.
I'm also unsure about HQ choices. Seems like biker chaplain (with beacon), watchmaster and librarian are the go to choices. Or should I swap the watchmaster for a captain with the shield relic?
Anything else that's an auto-include?
So query based on a recent match where I fought some good old fashioned MW spam from Chaos. What are our options here? The Space Marine Codex is pretty bare. I brought two Librarians but even 3 denies wasn't enough to keep up.
Audustum wrote: So query based on a recent match where I fought some good old fashioned MW spam from Chaos. What are our options here? The Space Marine Codex is pretty bare. I brought two Librarians but even 3 denies wasn't enough to keep up.
FNPs. We've got access to a toooooon of ways to shrug wounds, especially of the MW variety.
Chaplain - 5+++ bubble litany. Importantly, works against *any* mortal wound, not just psykers. Good in a pinch against things like Scrapjets, bombers, or other units that can do direct mortal wounds. Also importantly, thanks to Commanding Oratory, one you dont need to have picked, you can simply elect to start blasting it if it is needed.
Apothecary - 6+++ with bonus heals and revival - especially good on multiwound kill teams where if a 3-wound fella doesnt die he just pops back up to full health, and then his buddy stands back up thanks to Combat Revival
Librarian - Targetable 5+++, plus denies.
Also, dont sleep on the Malleus Inquisitor for hyper efficient psyker support. 60 points and a CP nets you a 2/2 caster who can fish for targetable MWs with Castigate, pull back some CP with Mental Interrogation or even just screw with your opponent via Dominate. If you're already running a Librarian they're an auto take as far as I'm concerned.
Audustum wrote: So query based on a recent match where I fought some good old fashioned MW spam from Chaos. What are our options here? The Space Marine Codex is pretty bare. I brought two Librarians but even 3 denies wasn't enough to keep up.
FNPs. We've got access to a toooooon of ways to shrug wounds, especially of the MW variety.
Chaplain - 5+++ bubble litany. Importantly, works against *any* mortal wound, not just psykers. Good in a pinch against things like Scrapjets, bombers, or other units that can do direct mortal wounds. Also importantly, thanks to Commanding Oratory, one you dont need to have picked, you can simply elect to start blasting it if it is needed.
Apothecary - 6+++ with bonus heals and revival - especially good on multiwound kill teams where if a 3-wound fella doesnt die he just pops back up to full health, and then his buddy stands back up thanks to Combat Revival
Librarian - Targetable 5+++, plus denies.
Also, dont sleep on the Malleus Inquisitor for hyper efficient psyker support. 60 points and a CP nets you a 2/2 caster who can fish for targetable MWs with Castigate, pull back some CP with Mental Interrogation or even just screw with your opponent via Dominate. If you're already running a Librarian they're an auto take as far as I'm concerned.
This is good advice, thank you!
I did try keeping a 5+++ one time and it stopped a fair number. The MW output of Chaos is just huge though. When I had no FNP, I took something like 22 MW in a single turn (over shooting, psychic and melee). With FNP things got cut down to like 12 (I rolled well it seems), but that's still enough to axe 4 Bladeguard/Gravis Armored models with just MW alone.
The Inquisitor is a good idea though. Mental Interrogation is usually hampered by the close range, but this kind of MW output needs proximity. Chaos player has to play into the distance (though Ahriman will almost certainly be present so there is always the denial hurdle). Thank you, again.
Also to consider if you're in a psyker heavy meta:
A Primaris Libby with the Reliquary of Gathalmor
Any Libby with the Soul Fortress relic.
The former needs no introduction and is a hilarious hard counter to anything involving psykers. The latter is a Deathwatch specific relic that allows the bearer to ignore modifiers to a Psychic test (like say, the Reliquary, Nid's Shadow in the Warp, SoS / Culexus shenanigans, etc), but more importantly pushes the bearer's Psychic Hood range to 24". That's effectively a +1 to Denys for that particular caster.
Combined, you can really, really screw with an opponent who wants to go hard on Warp shenanigans.
bmsattler wrote: Just as a heads up, I believe that Commanding Oratory is any of YOUR phases. It would be difficult to use it reactively.
This is correct. While you can't stop an opponent who gets a T1 drubbing off, the Litany does last till your next command phase, meaning if you pop it in your own turn it'll protect through your opponent's next. Again, not a perfect reactive defense, but one that you can keep in your back pocket if you'd rather bake other Litanies into your Chappy.
The former needs no introduction and is a hilarious hard counter to anything involving psykers. The latter is a Deathwatch specific relic that allows the bearer to ignore modifiers to a Psychic test (like say, the Reliquary, Nid's Shadow in the Warp, SoS / Culexus shenanigans, etc), but more importantly pushes the bearer's Psychic Hood range to 24". That's effectively a +1 to Denys for that particular caster.
Combined, you can really, really screw with an opponent who wants to go hard on Warp shenanigans.
bmsattler wrote: Just as a heads up, I believe that Commanding Oratory is any of YOUR phases. It would be difficult to use it reactively.
This is correct. While you can't stop an opponent who gets a T1 drubbing off, the Litany does last till your next command phase, meaning if you pop it in your own turn it'll protect through your opponent's next. Again, not a perfect reactive defense, but one that you can keep in your back pocket if you'd rather bake other Litanies into your Chappy.
So far the MW are primarily psychic but there's a fair amount in shooting + melee too. They just ooze it everywhere.
I'm trying to stay hard TAC so the Reliquary is tempting me but it's gonna be pretty useless against non-psyker matchups.
Abaddon303 wrote: I put my deathwatch project on the backburner for a couple of months, noticed in goonhammer they were saying people haven't really tapped the power from the codex yet.
What are people finding success with?
The beacon seems great but I'm not sure what the best play with it is? Pulling eradicators into melta range first turn? Or are people holding off and bringing through a nasty melee threat.
Feel like if we want to get charges off from a proteus melee they're better off being delivered in a corvus.
I'm also unsure about HQ choices. Seems like biker chaplain (with beacon), watchmaster and librarian are the go to choices. Or should I swap the watchmaster for a captain with the shield relic?
Anything else that's an auto-include?
I think you've got the right idea on the HQs. The Watchmaster though, tends to fall to the wayside of the captain. The inability to take the Aegis really hurts him. A company champion can do the job, but you need to be careful of how much you're spending on buffing characters. It's very easy to get up to around 600 points of buffing characters and not have enough meat to get the job done. In the elite slot, the Apothecary pulls a lot of weight, particularly in DW where he can be chaining and reviving units that are usually locked to smaller sizes that are easier to wipe out. Right now I'm spending around 475 for a Captain/Lib/Chaplain/Apoth, but even there I feel like I should trim them down a bit.
There's a good selection of Warlord traits and relics to pick from, to the point where you're going to need to try different combinations and see what works. I've been leaning away from the Beacon just because we have the teleport strat for alpha striking and we have too many good options. The Aegis is probably my must take at this point and Ectoclades is pretty crazy in practice. The Auspicator is also a powerful meta pick at the moment. In terms of WLTs, several of the Chapter Command options stand out as being early picks, and the Imperium's Sword is very powerful. Our unique choices are pretty great as well. Vigilence is very useful as is Optimized Priority. Getting extra relics out with Castellan can make a very smashy captain, particularly mixed with the Salamander WLT. Paragon gives us some interesting utility.
In terms of other stuff, I think our Kill Teams all have their place. Fortis is probably the weakest of the bunch. Intercessors are plain worse than Vets and Outriders probably aren't as good as Vet Bikes and Vanguards. Still, the Outriders are a bunch of wounds that can use the Intercessors to train back to the support characters very effectively. I think a Spectrus KT is a must take. Eliminators probably get enough out of it to be worth taking, but the optimized version is probably just to fill it out with Incursors for a couple of cheap midfield objective grabbers after combat squadding. The Gravis stuff will be interesting. Powerful team, but it's a little uncertain how good the expensive core unit is vs just buying more Eradicators/Inceptors. It doesn't help that Eradicators have largely hated out their targets from the meta. Proteus is probably our best pick as well as the one no none has totally figured out. The options are endless, so figuring out the best combo is still largely unexplored.
Special mention to Redemptor Dreadnoughts. Giving them an invul and rerolls makes them very happy. I need to math them vs another KT, but they seem like they're well worth it for what they do.
Thanks Lunarsol good info and lots to think about. I'm guessing when you say eliminators you mean eradicators and I 100% agree, when I first started to digest the codex taking 5 in a kill team just seemed so strong but actually, I can't remember the last time I came up against a vehicle, hardly anybody is running them anymore out of fear of eradicators.
Redemptors are definitely on my list due to the 5++ so good to hear you reconfirm that. It's a shame about the watchmaster because he seems like a cool and unique character to run in a DW army but it's so inefficient to take him and a champion for the relic shield compared to just taking a captain.
Interesting to hear your take on some of the primaris stuff. I think tbh I will be running some Fortis despite not being so efficient just because I'm mainly starting the DW army because I want to build some primaris!
Audustum wrote: The one time I took sniper Eliminators my opponent had Deathshroud negating.
I think 5 Las-Fusil Eliminators with a Librarian to Soul Sight + Shrouding could do some work.
I wouldnt worry too much about Death Guard throwing wrenches in the works. Eliminators are more than just head popping in a Spectrus team (cover in the open and a de-facto 1+ while in real cover is worth its weight in gold against multiple armies for instance). The problem with Fusil Eliminators is that they dont really do anything that other units can't do better and/or more efficiently.
Hmm, I guess the watchmaster is giving the full rerolls, something a captain can't do. Coming from CSM and more recently Death Guard it's amazing how many options there are it's quite overwhelming!
What secondaries are people taking? The more I play around with lists, by the time you trick out some solid kill teams most are around the 300pt mark which makes me think WWSWF is a no brainer. Your opponent has to wade through so many wounds and storm shields etc to stop you scoring.
An indomitor kill team will take a hell of a lot to shift and one combat squad would be very strong to sit on the middle of the board for oath of moment too.
I feel like obsec board control is something we can lean into and monster units to make DW very hard to shift. I guess combat squadding gives the benefits of big squads without the downsides of blast etc
Abaddon303 wrote: I guess combat squadding gives the benefits of big squads without the downsides of blast etc
Combat squadding allows for non-traditional formations for mixed units. Remember, you get to pick which models go into which squad, and they dont have to be evenly distributed. This can result in some very outside the box formations with unique properties.
Want T5 Terminators? You can do it.
Want Bikes rocking the same defensive statline as Custodian guard that are infantry and can go through terrain while also gaining cover? You can do it.
Want a brick of a unit that can innately redeploy, reduces the first failed save to zero damage, forward deploy and prevent *anything* coming in from reserves within 12"? You can do it.
Abaddon303 wrote: Thanks Lunarsol good info and lots to think about. I'm guessing when you say eliminators you mean eradicators and I 100% agree, when I first started to digest the codex taking 5 in a kill team just seemed so strong but actually, I can't remember the last time I came up against a vehicle, hardly anybody is running them anymore out of fear of eradicators.
Redemptors are definitely on my list due to the 5++ so good to hear you reconfirm that. It's a shame about the watchmaster because he seems like a cool and unique character to run in a DW army but it's so inefficient to take him and a champion for the relic shield compared to just taking a captain.
Interesting to hear your take on some of the primaris stuff. I think tbh I will be running some Fortis despite not being so efficient just because I'm mainly starting the DW army because I want to build some primaris!
Yeah, sorry, I was talking Eliminators for the Spectrus and forgot to switch when I started talking to Indomitus. Updated the post for clarity.
I don't think the Watch Master is bad at all, I just really want the Aegis. While I think the Champion is a decent deal 185 for the two is just really expensive. The Librarian/Chaplain/Apothecary are so tempting.
Ultimately, I've got this short list at the moment:
I think every model on this list is worth consideration, you just can't take them all. At most, I'd say 4 of them is pushing it, and even then you have to be careful how much you're taking out of your buff target budget to take these heroes. I've got about 700 points packed onto these 6 characters, so you just have to be careful. That's the dark side of a relatively well balanced set of options. You CAN take any of them, you'll just suffer if you try to take ALL of them.
I don't think the Fortis teams are bad. They can transhuman and the auto rifles put out a lot of firepower on a relatively mobile unit. The Outriders are still solid, even after the points bump and Hellblasters aren't bad, just outshone by Inceptors currently. I mostly point it out because Proteus Vets with SIA are basically Bolt Rifles with some alt fire options and free chainswords for the same price. Vet Vanguard/Bikers also mix in better ways than Fortis has. In terms of Primaris, I'd not sleep on Infiltrators. I probably won't ever run this personally, but I'd wager 2 Spectrus KTs, one with Eliminators and one with Incursors, makes for a really strong midfield objective grabbing game. A lot of SM players are having luck with their troop tax being 2 5 man Incurors teams and 1 5 man Infiltrator team. We can pull off the same thing, but with all 3 units having the 12" denial bubble for a bit cheaper. Luckily, I think all 4 are good enough to work with and much like the HQ short list, its just a matter of what you want to sink your points into.
The view I've seen taken most places is that if you want to teleport two separate units you should pay for both. RAW its completely up in the air as to how it is interpreted. I'd strongly suggest pre-game or pre-event discussion with your opponent or tournament organizers as to how this interaction would be run.
bmsattler wrote: RAW its completely up in the air as to how it is interpreted.
This is not correct. The RAW is very clear that a unit has to be placed into Reserves / Teleportarium / Transports before it can combat squad. The order of operations in the process is unambiguous. What this means, is that by pure RAW you *cannot* place two combat squads from a unit into different locations pregame (IE: one in a Razorback, another on the table or in the Teleportarium). Likewise, if you use the Teleportarium strat, the order of operations is abundantly clear that a unit can split afterwords, only costing 1 CP for two separate units.
Now all of this is obviously not ideal from an actual gameplay perspective (Combat Squadding and transports for instance just breaks the damn game), but it's a structural problem with 9th edition, not something specific to Deathwatch.
Abaddon303 wrote: Huh bit annoying. There's been a DWfaq already too hasn't there?
There has been, but again the issue is that the way the Combat Squads ability is worded the order of operations are incompatible with the highly regimented 9th edition "steps of playing the game" structure.
Ultimately it's a relatively easy fix, GW just need to define steps 9-11 as being "Deployment", but until they do, or until the Combat Squads rule is itself erattaed, we are where we are.
Yeh I think I'd agree with your RAW interpretation. Thing is, if anyone were to think that's an unfair reading (effectively reserving two units for the price of one) there is two sides to it.
If you could combat squad before using the teleportarium then you could start one squad on the board and another in deepstrike giving far more flexibility.
I'm actually not sure which way I'd prefer it was ruled...
For casual games, I dont think you're going to have any pushback on playing the whole ball of wax how it should be treated (IE: combat squads can be flexible and show up in different statuses during deployment). For competitive environments, it's a TO conversation for sure.
So with Indomitor Teams nearly upon us, what are people thinking of making? The 5 Eradicator build seems a little overkill at this point; I'm kind of wondering if some version of this might work better:
3 HI Hellstorm
2 HI Heavy (Executor?)
2 Eradicator Heavy Melta
1 Eradicator Melta Rifle
2 Inceptors Plasma (Assualt?)
The right answer might just be to spit out Inceptors, but I don't feel like the Heavy Intercessors are quite as valuable as a tax to give another squad objective secured.
LunarSol wrote: So with Indomitor Teams nearly upon us, what are people thinking of making? The 5 Eradicator build seems a little overkill at this point; I'm kind of wondering if some version of this might work better:
3 HI Hellstorm
2 HI Heavy (Executor?)
2 Eradicator Heavy Melta
1 Eradicator Melta Rifle
2 Inceptors Plasma (Assualt?)
The right answer might just be to spit out Inceptors, but I don't feel like the Heavy Intercessors are quite as valuable as a tax to give another squad objective secured.
I think the Aquila/Malleus/Dominatus/e.t.c. designations are more important than ObSec. Re-rolling 1's to Wound is wonderful.
I'm really not a fan of any gun on the HI's except the Executor. That .ight just be me. We should always give one of them a heavy bolt weapon (unless stretched for points) so we can pop MW with the strat.
5 Eradicators will evaporate a lot, but it does mean you can just lean on that unit as anti-tank (and the HI are effectively ablative wounds). They want to shoot different targets though and you wouldn't want the HI's shooting something else to mess up the double-tap on the Eradicators so combat-squadding deserves serious consideration.
The value of Inceptors in the unit changes dramatically based on whalen combat squadding occurs (see previous post discussions).
5 Eradicators will evaporate a lot, but it does mean you can just lean on that unit as anti-tank (and the HI are effectively ablative wounds). They want to shoot different targets though and you wouldn't want the HI's shooting something else to mess up the double-tap on the Eradicators so combat-squadding deserves serious consideration.
I wouldnt sleep on the HI guns. No they're not going to bring down a Russ or Knight by themselves, but with wound reroll support they can do not insubstantial chip damage over the course of a game. Similarly, I know Eradicators are all the rage for what they can do against vehicles and monsters, but their versatility to terrify elite heavy infantry (Gravis, Terminators, Custodians, etc) is just as, if not more valuable in my view. The formation as a whole has an answer for most medium to large targets if you build for it.
I've very curious how Dark Angels and Death Guard affect the composition. They seem to really hurt the Executor and Plasma options in the middle and favor the Assault variants or the Eradicator damage.
The Executor is probably the gun I'm most leery of. I'm really not seeing its appeal over the Rapid Fire version.
LunarSol wrote: I've very curious how Dark Angels and Death Guard affect the composition. They seem to really hurt the Executor and Plasma options in the middle and favor the Assault variants or the Eradicator damage.
The Executor is probably the gun I'm most leery of. I'm really not seeing its appeal over the Rapid Fire version.
I'm with you on the Executor. It (and the Stalker on regular Intercessors) is hit very hard by -1 damage abilities. The Heavy Bolter variant of the Executor is a completely different story. That thing is exquisite. A real shame we cant take two per Indomitor team.
Interesting, that's because, if I'm understanding how this works, we can run any mix of heavy rifles, then upgrade one to the heavy bolter version?
We can. Note, this is specific to the Indomitor Kill Team, not a blanket carveout for the Heavy Intercessor datasheet. Minor nuance detail, but potentially important when you're building lists.
Right, so the two rules on the unit boil down to this:
- You can replace everyone's rifle with a set of a different kind of rifles
- You can replace 1:5 rifles of a specific type with a heavy weapon of the matching type.
This means that normally, everyone has the same weapon, meaning the heavy weapon has to match the weapons of the rest of the squad. Note that you can't do the first replace if you've already put a Heavy Bolter on the unit specifically so you can't do that first, then swap all the Heavy Bolt Rifles for Hellstorm Rifles.... normally.
The Indomintor Killteam adds a third option to the list though that's essentially, you can replace individual rifles with whatever rifle you choose. This means that we can pick the weapons freely and for example, make 4 Hellstorm rifles and give the 5th guy an Executor. We can THEN replace the Executor on that one guy with a Heavy Executor, despite the rest of the unit being Hellstorm.
Early days, but my thoughts on Indomitor team's I'd fancy trying out:
Codex marines +1
Spoiler:
5 man squad taking the best pick and mix heavy bolt rifle variants to be more flexible than the standard codex heavy intercessor squad with no downside.
4 Hellstorm bolt rifles
1 Executor heavy bolter
Eradicators & elite hunters
Spoiler:
Would be more likely to try this if combat squad/deep strike is cleaned up. Possibly a good candidate for dominatus discipline (they probably don't need help on taking down tanks)
Combat sqaud 1 (would like to DS)
1 Hellstorm bolt rifle
4 Melta rifles
Combat squad 2 (would like to not DS if possible, plan on using this as just a better vanilla heavy intercessor unit, sit on an objective and hide a good gun inside)
3 Hellstorm bolt rifles (maybe just maybe executor rifles might work here)
1 Executor heavy bolter
1 Multi melta
Chonky boys
Spoiler:
To either deepstrike or beacon into place, and slap with every buff I can. Fortified by contempt/Premorphic resonance plus litanies and just get stuck in.
5 Hellstorm bolt rifles
5 Boltstorm aggressors
I'd rather take the basic Heavy Rifle over the Executor personally. Bolter Discipline and all.
Also, post nerf, the basic Melta Rifles are really underwhelming since you can't assault and double tap anymore. Still more mobile, but its a huge drop in firepower to assault.
I'm curious how the Aggressors might play out. Their melee punch is really their only adavantage over Inceptors.
At the moment, I'm leaning towards:
4 Hellstorm
1 Executor Heavy Bolter
1 Multi Melta
2 Heavy Melta Rifles
From there I'm a bit uncertain. Probably some combination of 2 Assault Inceptors or 1 Inceptor and either another Eradicator of either type. Not sure if the Heavy Bolter is actually making the team less capable of Combat squading for the points though.
Yeah, melta rifles vs heavy melta rifles is a tough one, I may just be putting too much weighting on accuracy as they would likely be away from auras. I'm looking at the multi melta though as more of an opportunity to combat squad than a hindrance, sticking the multi in another unit separate from other eradicators seems like the ideal elite hunter as it would drop 4 shots on it's own against anything (nicely complimenting whatever heavy bolter type is accompanying).
I think there's definite game with Terminators. In terms of raw output, 6 missiles and 10 rapid fire shots that can deepstrike is not something to overlook.
Isn't the Eradicator 50 points? 45 base +5 for the rifle? What am I missing?
Just missing me being a transposition potato. Your points tallies are correct.
Still stand by the assessment though. 3 CML termies tucked into a Proteus team is cost-wise nearly identical to an MSU eradicator Heavy Eradicator team, packs vastly more versatile firepower, plus melee capacity.
Isn't the Eradicator 50 points? 45 base +5 for the rifle? What am I missing?
Just missing me being a transposition potato. Your points tallies are correct.
Still stand by the assessment though. 3 CML termies tucked into a Proteus team is cost-wise nearly identical to an MSU eradicator Heavy Eradicator team, packs vastly more versatile firepower, plus melee capacity.
Oh yes, yes, I see what you mean. That's a pretty cool unit, too, and I'm all about that rule of cool.
Still stand by the assessment though. 3 CML termies tucked into a Proteus team is cost-wise nearly identical to an MSU eradicator Heavy Eradicator team, packs vastly more versatile firepower, plus melee capacity.
I really like the Cyclone Termies (I often run them with TH/SS in addition for better protection), but their firepower is way inferior to Eradicators - double tapping 2 shots with -4 and D6+2 D makes more than up for the longer range, even if you factor in that the ERadicators will usually have a -1 to hit, whereas the termies could stand still more often because of their superior range - so basically the main argument for the termies is the (in my opinion) better (more versatile) kill team they come with and the improved staying power.
I really like the Cyclone Termies (I often run them with TH/SS in addition for better protection), but their firepower is way inferior to Eradicators - double tapping 2 shots with -4 and D6+2 D makes more than up for the longer range, even if you factor in that the ERadicators will usually have a -1 to hit, whereas the termies could stand still more often because of their superior range - so basically the main argument for the termies is the (in my opinion) better (more versatile) kill team they come with and the improved staying power.
Hard disagree with your conclusion, but I think we're on the same page in terms of the underlying utilization. CMLs are volume of fire identical, are vastly easier to support with shooting boosting abilities, and most importantly do not require the unit to put every shot into a single target. That's before adding in the melee capacity, the additional bolter shots, and the simple fact that you need to dig through as many as seven storm shields (almost certainly behind a 5-6+++) to begin to ablate their output.
Eradicators definitely have their place in a Deatwatch force (generally sprinkled into Indomitor teams in my opinion), but they dont come close to doing for a unit what a Terminator can. Paradoxically enough, anti-tank doesnt need the 4-5 AP that elite infantry hunting in 9th really relies on, and that's about the only area that Eradicators significantly outperform Terminators.
Hi, I think I've already said that my Deathwatch army is going to be leaning slightly towards rule of cool rather than straight up competitive (although anything loyalist marine is never going to be trash right now).
I'd like to utilise some of the exclusive DW weapons so just wondered what the best way to use them was?
Xenophase blade seems great on a watch sergeant especially mastercrafted. I think i'm pretty comfortable with that choice.
I was thinking about giving a black shield a heavy thunder hammer due to the 3 attacks base and 2+ to hit but then you miss out on the extra 2 attacks from carrying 2 weapons and I'm struggling to overlook the possibility of a quite frankly disgusting 7 attacks with lightning claws! are the heavy thunder hammers still worth it on a regular veteran or should i just leave it at home?
How about the frag cannon and infernus? I remember the frag cannon being incredible a couple of years back but now it seems like a short range autocannon. As i write this i just noticed it's assault though so for a large chunck of the game it's gonna be -3ap which suddenly seems much more appealing!
I'm planning on leaning mostly into Primaris for this army so will probably only be building maybe around 10-15 deathwatch vets so i'd like to make sure I get their loadout pretty much on point. Thanks!
HTHs tucked into the otherwise usual pod of VanVets (LC/SS) can make for a disrupter unit that punches well above it's weight (which VanVets can already do scarily well). I dont rate them quite as highly in Proteus KTs, mostly because you either have to give up the weight of attacks that a Blackshield can put out or give up the shooting from a Vet.
That said, I wouldnt bet against them in that formation either.
With regards to the Infernus and Frag, they're just too damn pricey in my mind, and most importantly dont let you take a melee weapon or shield.
Coming from playing Death Guard, the frag at 10pts initially seems very comparable to the blight launcher which is pretty much the best special weapon we can take.
Appreciate they're not a straight comparison as DG aren't generally putting out large amounts of firepower and the -1T etc
I can see the comparison and will fully admit that I've never been a fan of Frags in any edition which may be clouding my judgement on this, but a blight launcher doesnt preclude a plague marine from getting its defensive buffs. The opportunity cost for a Frag in relationship to what it does for the squad just doesnt cut it in my book, especially with standard plasma guns or combi-flamers at half the cost and leaving a hand free for a shield or melee weapon.
are the heavy thunder hammers still worth it on a regular veteran or should i just leave it at home
Standard loadout for my proteus sergeants - especially since the HTH does not prevent the sergeant from taking a combat shield, which adds at least some resilience... My blackshields usually come along with LC/PF or TH/CS - 5 heavy hitting attacks on 3+ and 1 softer attack for about same points cost...
As regarding DW special weapons, I usually try to get one of each in my list - the only one that's not really competitive is the shotgun (the gun actually is quite ok, but the loss of a side arm/ ss disqualifies it for competitive play in my opinion). Stalker Bolters work rather ok in combination with Cyclone terminators for fire support, the frag is decent for mid-field units, with 2 shots even at 24" and 2 D without risk, imho it's superior to the plasma in that role. Inferno Bolter has decent output but seems to be harder to fit into my lists - sometimes I run it out of a corvus but usually I don't have those points to spare. Xenophase blade usually goes on a jump captain with masterworked and sword of the imperium - nice character hunter.
Standard loadout for my proteus sergeants - especially since the HTH does not prevent the sergeant from taking a combat shield, which adds at least some resilience... My blackshields usually come along with LC/PF or TH/CS - 5 heavy hitting attacks on 3+ and 1 softer attack for about same points cost...
I'm a big fan of the LC/PF and LC/TH configurations for blackshields. You're basically looking at a Company Champion level duelist at 40 points who can tuck into a Proteus team for protection while giving the squad the capacity to HI (it's coming up more often in 9th now, especially with the need to charge opponents off objectives) and posing an existential threat to both big and small targets.
Bossdoc wrote: Stalker Bolters work rather ok in combination with Cyclone terminators for fire support
I always find myself struggling to pick between Stalkers and a basic Bolter/Shield combo for backline CML teams. The former is unquestionably better against harder targets (AP2-3 at Damage 3 is no joke), but SIA with bolter discipline plus the defensive benefits of the shields to help protect the CML termies is just as potent. It's a real goddamn shame we can't take shields and Stalkers anymore.
Bossdoc wrote: Xenophase blade usually goes on a jump captain with masterworked and sword of the imperium - nice character hunter.
Deathwatch Slash captain is not to be trifled with, and I think is one of the scariest headhunters Marines as a whole can currently field with the possible exception of a tooled up BA duelist. Inherently nulling invulns and scything through anything that isn't a 2+ armor save is terrifying against a ton of armies.
I always find myself struggling to pick between Stalkers and a basic Bolter/Shield combo for backline CML teams. The former is unquestionably better against harder targets (AP2-3 at Damage 3 is no joke), but SIA with bolter discipline plus the defensive benefits of the shields to help protect the CML termies is just as potent.
Weel, since my most regular opponent is testing the new death guard rules at the moment, I started mixing stalker bolter in, whereas before I usally run only bolter/shield with the termies. I also found that TH/SS is a great combination with the cyclone and seems legal at the moment - the increased durability with a 3+ against e.g. lascannons when in cover is easily worth 10 points.
It's a real goddamn shame we can't take shields and Stalkers anymore.
I think I have no other army where weapon layouts changed so often in such short times - and I'm playing since rogue trader... Fortunately I'm a really lazy painter so at least I don't have to break painted models for every new deathwatch codex...
Weel, since my most regular opponent is testing the new death guard rules at the moment, I started mixing stalker bolter in, whereas before I usally run only bolter/shield with the termies. I also found that TH/SS is a great combination with the cyclone and seems legal at the moment - the increased durability with a 3+ against e.g. lascannons when in cover is easily worth 10 points.
For sure, matchup / local meta dependent things like that are always going to inform wargear choices, especially for a force that thrives on loadout flexibility as much as DW does. Needing to punch through a -1 damage malus makes the baseline SBG considerably more appealing.
I *really* wish we could customize the Terminator loadout similar to how Wolf Guard can. CML + SB + SS for daaaaaaaaaaaays
I think I have no other army where weapon layouts changed so often in such short times - and I'm playing since rogue trader... Fortunately I'm a really lazy painter so at least I don't have to break painted models for every new deathwatch codex...
I know the feeling. My entire collection is heavily converted, done purely for ROC, and militantly anti-WISYWYG so I'm not one who goes around needing to hack apart models with each new edition or FAQ, but it's still just annoying that certain things can't done.
Managed to get a couple of games in playing DW on TTS which has solidified some of my ideas and helped me work out what units i want to build up. It's hard work keeping up with all the rules and moving pieces but I've never played any type of loyalist marines so I've got 1.5 codexes to learn from scratch basically. The hardest is keeping track of the different loadouts in my kill teams and deciding who to take saves on/who to kill off.
The Corvus hasn't really worked out for me in either game. I know I'm being too aggressive with it and need to clear some anti-tank before trying to deliver it's contents. Does make me think then if it's worth it if i can just use the teleportarium for my melee Proteus team and save 200pts. Any advice to making it work as i really want to keep it? Maybe ignore the transport abilities and just use it as a mobile gunship? Doesn't help that in 2 games I've lost 6 vets when disembarking which is almost double the average!
Both games i used the beacon on a Chaplain to pull a 3 Erad/2HI Indomitor kill team forward into melta range. I'm thinking maybe combined with canticle of hate i'd be better off teleporting in either a unit of Bladeguard or my Proteus kill team and giving them a 7" first turn charge?
The Corvus hasn't really worked out for me in either game. I know I'm being too aggressive with it and need to clear some anti-tank before trying to deliver it's contents. Does make me think then if it's worth it if i can just use the teleportarium for my melee Proteus team and save 200pts. Any advice to making it work as i really want to keep it? Maybe ignore the transport abilities and just use it as a mobile gunship? Doesn't help that in 2 games I've lost 6 vets when disembarking which is almost double the average!
My personal bias on the Corvus is to use it purely as a gunship if you're dead set on running it. Between Teleportarium, Reserves, the Beacon and a few other tricks we don't really need flyer transports. 185 points (don't pay for the Hurricanes, but absolutely go for the Auspex) for a distraction carnifex is a reasonable price, especially when you can guarantee it survives T1. Use the threat of a bombing run and character sniping to your advantage, and just lob Lascannon and Stormstrike shots downrange. Somewhat scarier since we can time when Devastator doctrine goes off to help line up juicy AP 4 shots.
Both games i used the beacon on a Chaplain to pull a 3 Erad/2HI Indomitor kill team forward into melta range. I'm thinking maybe combined with canticle of hate i'd be better off teleporting in either a unit of Bladeguard or my Proteus kill team and giving them a 7" first turn charge?
Thought about VanVets for your melee? They're mobile enough to get a T2 Chappy boosted charge off nearly all the time, and survivable enough to really make a mess of things they tag. They can also pinch hit really well as White Scars. Tuck a HTH on the Sarge and the squad can punch surprisingly well above its weight.
One of the areas I havent really seen explored yet (and it's one big category of lists I've got squirreled away for when I can play in-person again) is going deep on DW's ability to be a mobile melee oriented army with fire support elements. With Bolter+CS vets being costwise identical to Intercessors but effectively better in every possible way (barring double tapping in shooting, which nobody uses anyway), the capacity to field T5 2+/4++ Bike/VanVet obsec disruption teams alongside traditional VanVet formations and access to not insignificant force multiplier abilities in things like the Aegis, the Tome and two frankly really good Psyker disciplines (yes, DA get better, but ours is still surprisingly potent) there's definitely ways to lean in on the way 9th wants its armies to play.
The main limitation is our ability to deliver the punch. In 9th, the dangerous CC armies are mostly about abusing fast things that can advance and charge army wide which we really can't manage. Most of our fast delivery is limited to Deep Strike style options that can't be delivered reliably en masse.
The Corvus hasn't really worked out for me in either game. I know I'm being too aggressive with it and need to clear some anti-tank before trying to deliver it's contents. Does make me think then if it's worth it if i can just use the teleportarium for my melee Proteus team and save 200pts. Any advice to making it work as i really want to keep it? Maybe ignore the transport abilities and just use it as a mobile gunship? Doesn't help that in 2 games I've lost 6 vets when disembarking which is almost double the average!
My personal bias on the Corvus is to use it purely as a gunship if you're dead set on running it. Between Teleportarium, Reserves, the Beacon and a few other tricks we don't really need flyer transports. 185 points (don't pay for the Hurricanes, but absolutely go for the Auspex) for a distraction carnifex is a reasonable price, especially when you can guarantee it survives T1. Use the threat of a bombing run and character sniping to your advantage, and just lob Lascannon and Stormstrike shots downrange. Somewhat scarier since we can time when Devastator doctrine goes off to help line up juicy AP 4 shots.
Both games i used the beacon on a Chaplain to pull a 3 Erad/2HI Indomitor kill team forward into melta range. I'm thinking maybe combined with canticle of hate i'd be better off teleporting in either a unit of Bladeguard or my Proteus kill team and giving them a 7" first turn charge?
Thought about VanVets for your melee? They're mobile enough to get a T2 Chappy boosted charge off nearly all the time, and survivable enough to really make a mess of things they tag. They can also pinch hit really well as White Scars. Tuck a HTH on the Sarge and the squad can punch surprisingly well above its weight.
One of the areas I havent really seen explored yet (and it's one big category of lists I've got squirreled away for when I can play in-person again) is going deep on DW's ability to be a mobile melee oriented army with fire support elements. With Bolter+CS vets being costwise identical to Intercessors but effectively better in every possible way (barring double tapping in shooting, which nobody uses anyway), the capacity to field T5 2+/4++ Bike/VanVet obsec disruption teams alongside traditional VanVet formations and access to not insignificant force multiplier abilities in things like the Aegis, the Tome and two frankly really good Psyker disciplines (yes, DA get better, but ours is still surprisingly potent) there's definitely ways to lean in on the way 9th wants its armies to play.
Yeh thanks, I'll try running the Corvus as a gunship and see how it does and yeh 15pts for 3 combibolters can do one lol.
If i can keep it at range for the first turn or two it should be able to avoid the melta spam we seem to be seeing in 9th and hopefully become more survivable as the game goes on. With no transport load it'll be less of a target too i guess. It just occurred to me actually that I can put it in hover first turn and pop the strat and it doesn't matter about losing the hard to hit as it will be untargetable.
My list at the moment is taking three big and expensive kill teams and putting WWSWF on them. So far I've scored 10pts each game for it. I have an Indomitor kill team that i combat squad, a Fortis of bikes and ints that i tend to protect with 5++ relic and 5+++ psychic and then just try to keep units topped up with the apothecary.
I've got VanVets in my Proteus kill team but not a separate unit, no jump packs either due to room in the Corvus. My Proteus team consists of the following:
Serg with MC xenohase & SS 4x DW Vets with bolter & SS 2x VanVets with claw & SS Terminator with Pair of claws
Terminator with TH & SS Blackshield with HTH
I'm a little loathe to go much beyond the Proteus kill team with firstborn options tbh, I'm converting them from Primaris and while I think it makes sense all contained in one unique unit, I think it'll start getting weird if i have other firstborn units. I'm not planning on taking this army to competitions as this is more of a rule of cool army but at the same time i don't want to cause undue confusion for opponents...
If i can keep it at range for the first turn or two it should be able to avoid the melta spam we seem to be seeing in 9th and hopefully become more survivable as the game goes on. With no transport load it'll be less of a target too i guess. It just occurred to me actually that I can put it in hover first turn and pop the strat and it doesn't matter about losing the hard to hit as it will be untargetable.
The strat, while pricey, can throw a major wrench in the works of particular matchups. Simply being able to dictate how your opponent moves T1 and T2 can be by itself worth the price of admission.
I'm a little loathe to go much beyond the Proteus kill team with firstborn options tbh, I'm converting them from Primaris and while I think it makes sense all contained in one unique unit, I think it'll start getting weird if i have other firstborn units. I'm not planning on taking this army to competitions as this is more of a rule of cool army but at the same time i don't want to cause undue confusion for opponents...
If you're looking for distinct, but scale similar options, both Stormcast and Custodian models are scale comparable to Primaris and generally are very cross compatible in terms of bits and posing (the latter especially are pretty much just plug-n-play with Primaris). I use conversions from all three ranges as various things within my lists to create functionally and visually different appearances.
I am trying to get into Deathwatch, but I encounter problems when trying to build a list.
I have the Space Marine codex as well and somehow I thought, that I may take any unit in that codex along to the unit options in the DW codex.
But when using Battlescribe I do not seem to be allowed to pick every unit available in the SM codex.
E.g. I cannot seem to pick the Attack bike squad or Scout bike squad (there might be more not listed in Battlescribe, but I did not check for every unit yet).
How is that so? And where is it written, which units I may use from the SM codex?
I am trying to get into Deathwatch, but I encounter problems when trying to build a list.
I have the Space Marine codex as well and somehow I thought, that I may take any unit in that codex along to the unit options in the DW codex.
But when using Battlescribe I do not seem to be allowed to pick every unit available in the SM codex.
E.g. I cannot seem to pick the Attack bike squad or Scout bike squad (there might be more not listed in Battlescribe, but I did not check for every unit yet).
How is that so? And where is it written, which units I may use from the SM codex?
Thank you!!
Welcome to the Watch! Page 124 of the Space Marine Codex has a section for Non-Codex Compliant Chapters (that's us!). Under the Deathwatch section, it will list a whole slew of units Deathwatch can't take. Don't fret, though - in some cases, we have better options in our Supplement. In other cases, its just the price we pay for being special snowflakes
I am trying to get into Deathwatch, but I encounter problems when trying to build a list.
I have the Space Marine codex as well and somehow I thought, that I may take any unit in that codex along to the unit options in the DW codex.
But when using Battlescribe I do not seem to be allowed to pick every unit available in the SM codex.
E.g. I cannot seem to pick the Attack bike squad or Scout bike squad (there might be more not listed in Battlescribe, but I did not check for every unit yet).
How is that so? And where is it written, which units I may use from the SM codex?
Thank you!!
You and me both, pal. Recently started my army, was surprised to learn we can't take attack bikes as their own unit.
A couple recent articles about list building I found to be instructive.
This one, from Goonhammer, talks about the challenges of building a DW army.
It's just a very conservative supplement. It has some very unique and interesting mechanics and they seem to have overcompensated by being very cautious with anything that adds actual power to the base codex. We'll be fine, but struggle to be outstanding unless there's a campaign book that significantly revamps out doctrine and strategems.
For most people though these aren't problems that will actually hold you back. It comes into play against players with extremely optimized lists. Against most of the pack we have a huge array of powerful options to pick from that will perform well, even in tournaments. I think we've got a good handle on our strong options, it's just a question of picking your favorites at this point.
I'm away from my books, and the GW app is useless for Secondaries. Does taking any Deathwatch detachment open the DW-specific secondaries up for you, or does your Warlord have to be DW to qualify for them?
For the veterans out there, how have you found the combination of 5++ from the shield and the 5+++ from the psychic power? I've seen promises of Death Guard levels of toughness, especially when combined with an Indomitor team. I just wanted to poll folks to see if they have seen similar results or not.
bmsattler wrote: For the veterans out there, how have you found the combination of 5++ from the shield and the 5+++ from the psychic power? I've seen promises of Death Guard levels of toughness, especially when combined with an Indomitor team. I just wanted to poll folks to see if they have seen similar results or not.
I have. It's good stuff. I dunno if I'd say DG levels. You're definitely tougher than PM's at that point but Death Shroud are probably still more resilient.
I actually use the invuln on my 2-3 Redemptors usually.
The main thing to be cautious of is that for durability buffs to be worth it, you have to give your opponent a reason to try and kill the buff target. HI don't have particularly outstanding output on their own, so you need to do something to make them a problem or your opponent will likely just kill the rest of your army while they hide in the bunker.
LunarSol wrote: The main thing to be cautious of is that for durability buffs to be worth it, you have to give your opponent a reason to try and kill the buff target. HI don't have particularly outstanding output on their own, so you need to do something to make them a problem or your opponent will likely just kill the rest of your army while they hide in the bunker.
Put them in a 10 man with 5 Eradicators. That'll get their attention (then combo it with WWSWF). Now they need to go after it and oh, it has 30W, Transhuman and a 5++/5+++.
The 5++ and 5+FNP is great, coupled with transhuman and unyielding makes 1 unit super durable. They will stand 1-2 turns against pretty much anything - the trick is taking out what is shooting you before your 500 point investment runs out
LunarSol wrote: Probably better to toss in an Inceptor, just so you don't get tagged by a paper bag they can't punch their way out of.
You can just 2CP and make them Ultramarines for a turn to fall back and shoot! Never sacrifice the shooting power of eradicators!
Except that's exactly what you do by putting five in a team you have no intention of combat squadding. Unless you're up against something like Mortarion, Knights or the Silent King, you're going to either waste fire with overkill, or lose the double tap by having to split fire.
LunarSol wrote: Probably better to toss in an Inceptor, just so you don't get tagged by a paper bag they can't punch their way out of.
You can just 2CP and make them Ultramarines for a turn to fall back and shoot! Never sacrifice the shooting power of eradicators!
Except that's exactly what you do by putting five in a team you have no intention of combat squadding. Unless you're up against something like Mortarion, Knights or the Silent King, you're going to either waste fire with overkill, or lose the double tap by having to split fire.
I mean, unless fighting Sisters or DELdar/Harlies just about anything has a target I'm more than happy to fire 5 Eradicators into in the current tournament meta:
LunarSol wrote: Probably better to toss in an Inceptor, just so you don't get tagged by a paper bag they can't punch their way out of.
You can just 2CP and make them Ultramarines for a turn to fall back and shoot! Never sacrifice the shooting power of eradicators!
Except that's exactly what you do by putting five in a team you have no intention of combat squadding. Unless you're up against something like Mortarion, Knights or the Silent King, you're going to either waste fire with overkill, or lose the double tap by having to split fire.
I mean, unless fighting Sisters or DELdar/Harlies just about anything has a target I'm more than happy to fire 5 Eradicators into in the current tournament meta:
I noticed today that Mantle of Shadow psychic power doesn't stipulate core, just infantry or biker.
It made me start thinking about centurion devestators. They have the range where you're quite happy having them sat behind a big indomitor kill team etc just pumping out shots. If you fail the psychic and they do take some hits they can be healed/restored by the apothecary which is crazy value return.
They are so expensive though, i love the models and would really like to make them work. I kind of wish they were like Obliterators and didn't have to be taken in a unit of three as it's such a huge investment. Any thoughts?
I'd be more worried about their lack of mobility. It would be hard to give them good lines of sight and keep them shielded.
That said, it's probably one of the better uses for Devastator Centurions that I've heard! If you're looking to include them, Deathwatch would be the way to go. You can also teleport strike them with the strategem, which would help counter-deploy somewhat.
Oh, I'm an idiot. Somehow managed to overlook that and just presumed it was working like Cloud of Flies.
I don't think there's really any way to make Dev Centurions work at the moment then is there?
Abaddon303 wrote: Oh, I'm an idiot. Somehow managed to overlook that and just presumed it was working like Cloud of Flies.
I don't think there's really any way to make Dev Centurions work at the moment then is there?
There's a super fun interaction with the Sarge getting SIA, and I'd say they're not that much worse than anything else DW can bring. They're not exactly the most competitive Marine choice anyway.
It's a spin on the Ultramarines Dread + Invictor list that's been popping up here and there in the post-Drukhari world. I think Lennon was the one who was tinkering with that approach initially, so makes sense that he'd be the one to pilot it. Infantry goes for points, Bikes are on speedbump, anti-chaff and ObSec nuisance duty while the Dreads boosted by characters are the meat of the killing.
The DW specific partition is the kill teams for (slightly) more resilient Bike teams with ObSec and layered buffs from the characters. The shotguns are an interesting choice though.
It's a relatively simple, but tricky to play list. Nice to see the lads in black take home a GT.
Yeah, plus they're a decent Overwatch deterrent and I think the S5 is easy to discount when they're usually getting an AP bonus. Auto hitting against low toughness elves is certainly not a bad thing, which is a list the Auspicator is also obviously gunning for.
Primaris Captain with Bolt Rifle and Power Sword
Phobos Librarian
Fortis Kill Team w/ 5x Intercessors and 5x Hellblasters
Spectrus Kill Team w/ 5x Infiltrators (Helix) and x5 Eliminators (Sniper Rifles)
10x Assault Intercessors (Sgt w/ Thunderhammer and Plasma Pistol)
Currently in the painting queue:
Company Champion
Apothecary
2x Chapter Veterans w/Storm Bolters and Storm Shield
1x Vanguard Veteran w/ Heavy Thunderhammer (all five built from DW Veteran bodies)
Indomitor Kill Team w/ 5x Heavy Intercessors (hellstorm), 3x Eradicators, 1x Aggressor (flamer), 1x Inceptor (bolter)
Corvus Blackstar
So I've got 20 more DW Veterans to build and there's an insane amount of options. I'm not super competitive though I do want to avoid future regrets. Right now my thinking is to build 3 units of 5 Veterans as a 'base' to add Bikers/Terminators/Vanguard Veterans to. Right now my thought is composing them as follows:
1x Watch Sergeant w/ DW Combi Melta and Storm Shield
4x Veterans with DW Bolter and Storm Shield
I'm not sure if you can have a Black Shield in Proteus Kill Teams, as they have a different name and profile from Veterans even though they are in the Deathwatch Veterans unit listing. I'd like to take Black Shields with 2x Lightning Claws (what, 6 attacks base?) in these squads and it might be worth using one box of DW Veterans to build just Black Shields and Vanguard Veterans for some flexibility (so I could run 3x 5 DW Veterans as non-Kill Teams with a Black Shield in each, or swap out the Black Shield for a regular bolter/SS guy to run them as Proteus teams.
So building my 20 as follows:
3x Watch Sergeant w/ DW Combi Melta and Storm Shield
3x Black Shield w/ two Lighting Claws
12x Veterans w/ DW bolter and Storm Shield
2x Vanguard Veterans w/ Heavy Thunderhammer (with the one above making 3 total)
That would allow me to run either 3x DW Veterans with Black Shields (6 man teams), or have the base for 3 Proteus Kill Teams (Sgt, 4x Veterans, 1 Vanguard Vet), or any combination of the two.
Initially Black Shields were excluded from Proteus Teams because GW did stupid writing. That has fortunately been FAQed, and they are legal. Keep in mind that Black Shields must be at minimum the 6th member of a Proteus team (or Veteran Squad). No more swapping in a single dude in a 5-man squad like you could in 8th.
Yes, it's stupid, but that's most of 9th edition for our lads in black.
As to loadout for BS, I'm personally on the Thunder Hammer + Lightning Claw bandwagon. Yes, it's one less horde blending attack, and it's more expensive than the double LC, but it effectively gives you a choice between a sweep attack and a smash attack that can threaten anything on the table. For 40 points you get a Captain-level duelist who can sit inside any Proteus formation.
VVs in big squads are definitely Twin LCs. If you plan to have them with Bikes, consider LC + SS for a hellaciously frustrating Custodian level defensive profile (T5, 2+/4++).
HTHs on VVs I would only use if you're putting dedicated VanVet teams on the table (which wouldn't be a bad choice mind you, they're still extremely good units even after the price increase).
Sterling191 wrote: Initially Black Shields were excluded from Proteus Teams because GW did stupid writing. That has fortunately been FAQed, and they are legal. Keep in mind that Black Shields must be at minimum the 6th member of a Proteus team (or Veteran Squad). No more swapping in a single dude in a 5-man squad like you could in 8th.
Ah, thank you.
As to loadout for BS, I'm personally on the Thunder Hammer + Lightning Claw bandwagon. Yes, it's one less horde blending attack, and it's more expensive than the double LC, but it effectively gives you a choice between a sweep attack and a smash attack that can threaten anything on the table. For 40 points you get a Captain-level duelist who can sit inside any Proteus formation.
Hmm...yeah I can see the logic, though I do care about aesthetics
VVs in big squads are definitely Twin LCs. If you plan to have them with Bikes, consider LC + SS for a hellaciously frustrating Custodian level defensive profile (T5, 2+/4++).
Well, bikes are a far off consideration, as they're sold out most places!
HTHs on VVs I would only use if you're putting dedicated VanVet teams on the table (which wouldn't be a bad choice mind you, they're still extremely good units even after the price increase).
Well I could do both - build Vanguard Vets with Thunderhammers now and add Vanguard Vets with LClaw+SS later so I could have a pack of dudes.
I also realized I only have access to 10 DW Storm Shields (5 boxes total, I gave the Company Veterans storm shields from Vanguard Veterans so I could easily tell them apart), so I'd have to have Watch Sgt, 3x Bolter/SS and one guy per squad with some other loadout.
That would put me building this:
3x Watch Sgt w/ DW combimelta and power sword
3x Black Shield w/ LClaw and Thunderhammer
9x Veterans with DW bolter and Stormshield
3x Veterans with 'something else', probably bog standard DW Bolter and Power Sword.
1x Vanguard Veteran with LClaw/Stormshield
1x Vanguard Veteran with Heavy Thunderhammer
And have a later purchase add 2 more Vanguard Veterans with LClaw/Stormshield to form a potential 5 man Vanguard Veteran squad with 3x LClaw/SS and 2x Hvy Thunderhammers.
3x Veterans with 'something else', probably bog standard DW Bolter and Power Sword.
If you can't decide, you really can't go wrong with the classic Bolter and Chainsword. The end result is a model that costs as much as an Intercessor but with superior melee and comparable (arguably better since you can tailor your SIA to targets) shooting.
Yeah bolter and chainsword sounds cheap and cheerful. I wonder how many Storm Shields per squad is ideal. With 6-7 man-Kill Teams I could step down to 2 Storm Shields on DW Veterans and save them for LClaw/SS Vanguard Vets? That's still 3 SS per squad and I could make 3 squads that look like:
1x Watch Sgt
1x Black Shield
2x Bolter/SS 2x Bolter/Chainsword
1x VVet with LClaw/SS
Though I'm probably better off leaving the VVets off the menu until I can get bikes or more Veterans to build a full squad of VVets.
Another option is to just build 2x10 squads for now, go 4/4 on Bolter/SS and Bolter/CS guys and save bits for later.
I have a quick, NON-TROLL question for you (that might really sound like trolling if I didn't preface it like this.)
I keep hearing in other parts of this forum that "Deathwatch sucks in 9th edition". What I can't figure out is WHY everyone is so adamant about this claim. Most folks still think that the 9th bog-standard space marine codex is fairly competitive, so why does the Deathwatch one receive such hate?
Again, I'm not trying to troll, I just want to know. I have always thought DW was a cool concept, and was considering making a small force of it, but everyone keeps repeating that it's so bad I shouldn't bother. So what gives?
Short answer: our underlying rules are at best mediocre, and most of the Deathwatch specific units got substantially nerfed from 8th to 9th.
Long Answer: The army has some specific tricks, and when fielded by an experienced player can be enough of a wild card to be successful in the hyper-lethal world of the current 9th edition meta. But the configurations that allow for that success are limited, and frankly it's going to be an uphill battle that's compounded by the army's utterly garbage rules.
Deathwatch can take care of business competitively, but it takes a particular playstyle and list configuration. Deviate from either, and things like Drukhari, or especially AdMech, will just scythe through you.
All that said, if you're looking for a fun "your-dudes" army that puts a premium on personalization, hobby fun and general shenanigans, you've come to the right place. In more casual settings Deathwatch will do just fine. You just need to avoid list-building traps.
I have a quick, NON-TROLL question for you (that might really sound like trolling if I didn't preface it like this.)
I keep hearing in other parts of this forum that "Deathwatch sucks in 9th edition". What I can't figure out is WHY everyone is so adamant about this claim. Most folks still think that the 9th bog-standard space marine codex is fairly competitive, so why does the Deathwatch one receive such hate?
Again, I'm not trying to troll, I just want to know. I have always thought DW was a cool concept, and was considering making a small force of it, but everyone keeps repeating that it's so bad I shouldn't bother. So what gives?
Cause DW doesn't post the big fancy wins too often. There's been some people (like me) saying they're actually sleeper S tier. They're now starting to actually get some placings and prove that.
Be forewarned though, the path to competitive DW victory relies in taking 2-3 Redemptors and 2-3 Relic Contemptors in every list.
I think, just because of the "my dudes" aspect and "rule of cool" I am still going to convert a bit of my marine collection into DW regardless of the haters. I'm not super competitive and neither is my LGS, so even if I lose I will probably have a fun time doing it :-)
As far as the dreads go: one of my next major purchases was going to be x2 redemptors anyway, so it makes sense to paint them black and deck them out with cool kit!
I think, just because of the "my dudes" aspect and "rule of cool" I am still going to convert a bit of my marine collection into DW regardless of the haters. I'm not super competitive and neither is my LGS, so even if I lose I will probably have a fun time doing it :-)
As far as the dreads go: one of my next major purchases was going to be x2 redemptors anyway, so it makes sense to paint them black and deck them out with cool kit!
Yes it does! Great combos for them include a Captain with the relic 5++ aura shield, a Tech-Marine with Rites of War (gives them obsec) and a Librarian with Might of Heroes to get them that extra +1T to resist shooting and hit a bit harder if something does reach them. They're good for marching to the center of the board to score Oath of Moments.
I think most people generally agree the Macro Plasma Incinerator is the better main gun option. Opinion is split on whether the Fragstorm Grenade Launcher or whatever is better than a Storm Bolter.
While it's true that we don't lose much (don't have a super-doctrine to speak of, and the loss of some AP is not the end of the world), we don't really stand to gain much. The biggest issue with souping (from a competitive standpoint) is the inherent CP costs, and the question of what role you're trying to bring in via the allied formation. Realistically speaking, Deathwatch doesnt have gaps that can be easily filled by soup in any meaningful way.
We do actions better than any other Marine chapter, have access to expanded ObSec via multiple options, and have arguably some of the best marine Psykers in existence. The only thing I can think of that we don't field very well is tanks, but nobody's tanks are any good in comparison to a wall of Redemptors / Contemptors under a shield dome in the age of the Dark Lance / Multi-Melta.
If you're looking at it from a fun perspective? Go to absolute town. My personal custom chapter (which I use Deathwatch rules to represent on the table) *always* deploys with militarized auxiliary forces (represented by Guard / Scions). I've been doing that since I got back to the hobby at the beginning of 8th and it's an absolute blast to have big and smol together for shenanigans. It's not a combination that can cut it against the hyper-lethality of high end play in 9th, but in casual games it's more than enough to take care of business reliably.
Sterling191 wrote: While it's true that we don't lose much (don't have a super-doctrine to speak of, and the loss of some AP is not the end of the world), we don't really stand to gain much. The biggest issue with souping (from a competitive standpoint) is the inherent CP costs, and the question of what role you're trying to bring in via the allied formation. Realistically speaking, Deathwatch doesnt have gaps that can be easily filled by soup in any meaningful way.
We do actions better than any other Marine chapter, have access to expanded ObSec via multiple options, and have arguably some of the best marine Psykers in existence. The only thing I can think of that we don't field very well is tanks, but nobody's tanks are any good in comparison to a wall of Redemptors / Contemptors under a shield dome in the age of the Dark Lance / Multi-Melta.
If you're looking at it from a fun perspective? Go to absolute town. My personal custom chapter (which I use Deathwatch rules to represent on the table) *always* deploys with militarized auxiliary forces (represented by Guard / Scions). I've been doing that since I got back to the hobby at the beginning of 8th and it's an absolute blast to have big and smol together for shenanigans. It's not a combination that can cut it against the hyper-lethality of high end play in 9th, but in casual games it's more than enough to take care of business reliably.
Just spit-balling but you could bring a Super-Heavy/Super-Heavy-Aux of anywhere from 1-9 Vulkite Moiraxes for about the same CP cost as 3 Relic Contemptors. No clue if it'd actually be more useful though.
Just spit-balling but you could bring a Super-Heavy/Super-Heavy-Aux of anywhere from 1-9 Vulkite Moiraxes for about the same CP cost as 3 Relic Contemptors. No clue if it'd actually be more useful though.
Sadly the Moirax is more expensive, more fragile, unsupportable by any rerolls, auras or other abiities, and puts out significantly less firepower (a Moirax is putting out 10 shots to the VolCon's 16 while costing 5 points more each).
Just spit-balling but you could bring a Super-Heavy/Super-Heavy-Aux of anywhere from 1-9 Vulkite Moiraxes for about the same CP cost as 3 Relic Contemptors. No clue if it'd actually be more useful though.
Sadly the Moirax is more expensive, more fragile, unsupportable by any rerolls, auras or other abiities, and puts out significantly less firepower (a Moirax is putting out 10 shots to the VolCon's 16 while costing 5 points more each).
3+ of them can start benefiting from Knightly Household Traits though. You can also put WL traits and relics on them (if you want a CP bonanza). You can also take more than 3 if that floats your boat (say 4 or 5, or 6 and maybe phase out your Redemptors completely).
The general DW problem is basically that the unique stuff the DW brings is generally B+. Good, solid, fun stuff, but not super competitive. To make DW competitive, you cut out most of the kill teams and the like and focus on the same kinds of models that make all marines competitive. What you're left with, a good list, that simply would be better with a different paintjob.
I personally find the kill teams to be good enough to win games, but not tournaments and I'm pretty okay with that. It's a fun, complex army with cool looking models and really fun themes. If I was chasing the meta though, no I wouldn't recommend them and in truth, there's never really been a time where they were truly on top.
LunarSol wrote: The general DW problem is basically that the unique stuff the DW brings is generally B+. Good, solid, fun stuff, but not super competitive. To make DW competitive, you cut out most of the kill teams and the like and focus on the same kinds of models that make all marines competitive. What you're left with, a good list, that simply would be better with a different paintjob.
I personally find the kill teams to be good enough to win games, but not tournaments and I'm pretty okay with that. It's a fun, complex army with cool looking models and really fun themes. If I was chasing the meta though, no I wouldn't recommend them and in truth, there's never really been a time where they were truly on top.
So DW actually took 1st at the Onslaught GT using Proteus Kill Teams:
Teams were 4 shotgun vets with 4 biker vets and a claw/storm-shield vet + combat-shield watch sergeant. I'm not sure you could improve on this by making it a different color (though I prefer primaris kill teams personally).
Oh for sure. I think there's stuff that's absolutely competitive. That second paragraph mostly exists because I realized the first sounded completely down on things and that's really not my attitude.
A big part of putting up tourney wins is having top end players jump into the faction because they see it giving them the advantage. The above is more trying to explain why that doesn't happen. Why they don't perceive it as advantageous. It's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy that got its start from the moment DW dropped in 7th and struggled to find a place among the competitive crowd.
LunarSol wrote: Oh for sure. I think there's stuff that's absolutely competitive. That second paragraph mostly exists because I realized the first sounded completely down on things and that's really not my attitude.
A big part of putting up tourney wins is having top end players jump into the faction because they see it giving them the advantage. The above is more trying to explain why that doesn't happen. Why they don't perceive it as advantageous. It's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy that got its start from the moment DW dropped in 7th and struggled to find a place among the competitive crowd.
That list has actually inspired me to dip my toe back into Deathwatch after a very long break. I'm tinkering with it quite a bit, but it's a great basis for 9e Deathwatch lists. The old 3d printer is currenty churning out 2 bikes a plate!
Im looking at my next project after i finish my current set of projects (im in the somewhat eviable positon of not having a Pile of Shame, having given it all away during a decade long remission form 40K and i've finished every new kit i have bought since.)
I am finding myself gravitating towards the Deathwatch, who will be my 1st proper space marine army ive ever collected. I just feel that thematically, i like the idea of them (though i do think the authors seem to have watched a little too much game of thrones before writing a lot of the fluff....)
i have a few questions:
1) how powerful are they, actaully? i know they arent exactly setting the meta on fire, but are they good enough that a medicore player like me can actaully WIN with them or are they a "great players can win, the rest just bulk other teams stats" type faction?
2) how fun is it to actually play? i deal with a poor win/loss rate if im having fun loosing. how does the basic idea of the kill teams work on the tabletop? i havent shelled out for a codex yet, and since i dont have codex space marines im looking at a £45 just to understand what i'll be wanting to buy.
3) I know the Deathwatch is black, but are they always black or do they support other colour schemes? Im not really a great painter and i feel like flat black would look bit dull and half-arsed on its own, and i dont have the skill to edge highlight enough to liven it up.
Deathwatch are one of the more competitive Space Marine variants at the moment, due in part to their ability to support dreadnaughts through some nice buffs. The Kill Teams work pretty well and they have access to most of the other tools that Space Marines use.
They can be fun to play, as they can support a combination of melee and ranged and have some interesting dynamic options with some teleportation options. It will be up to you to decide if they work for your play style or not.
You can paint them however you want, as long as it is clear what models are what. I paint my Space Marines a unique style that does not match any of the 'Codex' styles so that I can switch around if one Chapter becomes appealing to play.
1) how powerful are they, actaully? i know they arent exactly setting the meta on fire, but are they good enough that a medicore player like me can actaully WIN with them or are they a "great players can win, the rest just bulk other teams stats" type faction?
Deathwatch do two things extremely well: play objectives (the overwhelming bulk of your army will be ObSec, including multiple things that would not be in other Marine armies), and buff Dreadnoughts (because they are CORE, nearly all of the faction relics, as well as multiple WLTs and Psyker powers, will apply to them, and they are spicy).
It is not a simple army by any means, but when fielded correctly they are enough of a wild card to do the business.
2) how fun is it to actually play? i deal with a poor win/loss rate if im having fun loosing. how does the basic idea of the kill teams work on the tabletop? i havent shelled out for a codex yet, and since i dont have codex space marines im looking at a £45 just to understand what i'll be wanting to buy.
Kill Teams are fairly straightforward (though mechanically nuanced, more on that in a bit). You combine multiple different models into a single unit that happens to be a Troops selection. This means that with creative application of model selection, wargear choice and tactics you can create a highly flexible unit to suit nearly any battlefield need. Want a sniper team? You can do that. Need highly mobile melee and horde clearing? You can do that. Need a brick of a unit to sit on an objective that just wont die? You can do that? Got a tank that needs to go away? You can do that. The list goes on.
In practice, this works...okay. Not fantastic, but it's functional. To the point that Kill Teams, while IMO not as effective or fun as they were in 8th, are still a core reason why Deathwatch are doing as well as they are.
3) I know the Deathwatch is black, but are they always black or do they support other colour schemes? Im not really a great painter and i feel like flat black would look bit dull and half-arsed on its own, and i dont have the skill to edge highlight enough to liven it up.
If you're doing a traditional Deathwatch paint scheme, it's black armor, silver Xenomortis pauldron and left arm, with the parent chapter badge on the right pauldron. The only exception is a Blackshield, who obscures their right pauldron. No exceptions. They don't re-livery based on mission parameters.
If you want to "your dudes" it up though? Absolutely! So much of the fun of the faction is personalized customization.
Speaking of KillTeams: Don't forget the funny tricks you can do with intelligent combat squadding.
Like making models troops that normally aren't (and thus giving them ObSec) or fielding units of 5 that are limited to 3 models on their datasheet (applies to many Primaris, such as the Eliminators).
Realistically what GK can bring to a Deathwatch force is brutally efficient melee and psychic coverage (not support, but coverage, we still need our own Librarians if we want to drop buffs). Strikes are *very* interesting, but for my money Interceptors supporting combat squadded Bikes/VanVets are extremely tasty plus or minus character shenanigans (the mortal wound bomb Librarian is getting taken for a spin in fun games for sure). I have an inkling of how to attempt some psyker based character sniping, but I'm not sure if it's actually feasible just yet.
Having multiple vectors for fallback + shoot/charge nonsense is gold.
Though it's a constant reminder of just how pants on head stupidly structured our rules and points costs are. Strikes come with better guns, better melee, innate deep strike and full psyker ability...and they're cheaper than Veterans.
Sterling191 wrote: Realistically what GK can bring to a Deathwatch force is brutally efficient melee and psychic coverage (not support, but coverage, we still need our own Librarians if we want to drop buffs). Strikes are *very* interesting, but for my money Interceptors supporting combat squadded Bikes/VanVets are extremely tasty plus or minus character shenanigans (the mortal wound bomb Librarian is getting taken for a spin in fun games for sure). I have an inkling of how to attempt some psyker based character sniping, but I'm not sure if it's actually feasible just yet.
Having multiple vectors for fallback + shoot/charge nonsense is gold.
Though it's a constant reminder of just how pants on head stupidly structured our rules and points costs are. Strikes come with better guns, better melee, innate deep strike and full psyker ability...and they're cheaper than Veterans.
i think niiru was weighing up using EITHER the grey knights or deathwatch as a allied force in a soup list, not souping the silver and the black.
Sterling191 wrote: Realistically what GK can bring to a Deathwatch force is brutally efficient melee and psychic coverage (not support, but coverage, we still need our own Librarians if we want to drop buffs). Strikes are *very* interesting, but for my money Interceptors supporting combat squadded Bikes/VanVets are extremely tasty plus or minus character shenanigans (the mortal wound bomb Librarian is getting taken for a spin in fun games for sure). I have an inkling of how to attempt some psyker based character sniping, but I'm not sure if it's actually feasible just yet.
Having multiple vectors for fallback + shoot/charge nonsense is gold.
Though it's a constant reminder of just how pants on head stupidly structured our rules and points costs are. Strikes come with better guns, better melee, innate deep strike and full psyker ability...and they're cheaper than Veterans.
i think niiru was weighing up using EITHER the grey knights or deathwatch as a allied force in a soup list, not souping the silver and the black.
Actually I was weighing up using either a pure-GK or a pure-DW force, no allies involved, though since asking this I have also started wondering if a mixed army of one DW and one GK detachment would be interesting to combine! So his answer was very helpful haha.
Also considering Sisters, but obviously not all 3 together. It would be SoB+DW, or SoB+GK, or GK+DW. Not sure yet on the way things would work out. Sisters lose acts of faith, which is a fairly big loss, but DW and GK don't -seem- to lose much by souping.
It's funny you say that, Niiru. I love to mix and match the arms-militant of the inquisition but it's never competitive. Currently, the only fluffy Inq. list that works well is DW and Storm Troopers (IG)
DW and GK have a lot in common, the most prominent similarity being high points cost, particularly in troops. GK need their Tides of the Warp to be competitive. Sisters don't soup too well, but do so better than GK by a mile.
DW and GK have a lot in common, the most prominent similarity being high points cost, particularly in troops. GK need their Tides of the Warp to be competitive. Sisters don't soup too well, but do so better than GK by a mile.
I'd take issue with this characterization. GK Strike Marines are on the expensive side at 22ppm, but keep in mind everything they get from that. Master crafted power weapons, a Storm Bolter, innate deep strike, psychic capacity and ObSec.
The comparable Deathwatch veteran is 26 points, has half the damage on their melee weapons, one less attack after the charge, no deep strike and no casts or denys. Non-Terminator GK units are efficient enough without TIdes to be serious contenders for soup, and there are a few character builds that are interesting enough as standalone pieces to be worth looking at. Not having the eye watering melee potential from Convergence is a loss, yes. But that doesn't stop the faction from being serious contenders for the Marine Melee crown. They're *that* killy just on the strength of their datasheets alone.
Likewise with Sisters. 11ppm is a sweet spot for small, relatively durable (2+ in cover aint to be sneezed at as the Skitarii hordes have shown) Infantry for board control, actions, screening or in a pinch throwing down. Similarly, Sacresants make the addition of a pod of Sororitas characters a *very* interesting choice, and that faction has heroes priced to move. Yes, losing Miracle Dice hurts, but there are still a ton of tricks available and the army brings something that Deathwatch sorely struggle with: board presence.
Of the two I really think we're going to see GK showing up in soup across the Imperium umbrella.
You take issue that I accuse both DW and GK of having elite points costs?
Bad joke aside, I agree with your points but the question was whether GK or Sisters would play well together with DW specifically. You point out why both other factions have superior troops and what they offer to the Watch, but what does DW bring to the table for either army that they cannot already do better alone? Specific tactics you might utilize or unit synergies between the power-armored factions are what I'd be curious about.
As to characterization, I can only speak from my own gaming experiences. What have your recent Branch Militant battles been like?
but what does DW bring to the table for either army that they cannot already do better alone? Specific tactics you might utilize or unit synergies between the power-armored factions are what I'd be curious about.
Durability, disruptive capacity and the best goddamn dreadnoughts in the game. The amount of shenanigans one can pull with combat squadded Kill Teams while delivering highly mobile, forward deploying or repeatedly deep striking obsec bodies (many of them T5 and sitting behind a 2+/4++) supported by spooled up dreads is why Deathwatch is having something of a competitive renaissance at the moment. None of that relies on doctrines, or a (nonexistent) superdoctrine.
GK aggressively trade up, but have very limited means to hold territory. If they don't overkill an opponent, they're in serious trouble. Sisters on the other hand play the long slog attrition game, putting more bodies down than an opponent can wipe out before they get overwhelmed by miracle boosted firepower and close combat killstacks.
For the former, it's about adding the eye watering melee and psychic element to a Deathwatch force. For the latter, it's about adding the mobility and other assorted nonsense to a Sisters force.
Ok, so I've taken the plunge and ordered the deathwatch codex. I'm thinking about my first 500 point force.
I plan to get some heavy intercessors in a kill team as my base troop squad, and thinking about a watch master for my HQ. But beyond that I'm not sure what to do with my final 220 points. Something punchy to push enemy off an objective, but I've never been a marine player and don't know what would be best?
You have several options. Bladeguard are a staple, but can be somewhat difficult to deliver. At the combat patrol table size though that's largely mitigated.
VanVets are still excellent despite their points drop. 30ppm for Jump Pack, Storm Shield and your choice of power weapon. Simple, mobile, durable, relatively killy.
Finally, and this is my personal pick most of the time, a Proteus Kill Team can easily serve as a melee bully threat if kitted appropriately. Tuck a VanVet and a Black Shield into a squad and you suddenly have some real close combat teeth on a shooty, ObSec unit. Versatile, flexible, just all around great. The VanVet does double duty leading out charges, making it that little bit easier to get the squad stuck in.
xerxeskingofking wrote: Right, quick question: we get both the mission tactics ability in the deathwatch codex AND the xenos hunters ability from codex space marines, yes?
Correct. Xenos Hunters is the Chapter Tactic, Mission Tactics is the superdoctrine you get for running a pure Deathwatch force.
LunarSol wrote: Has anyone found an Indomitus KT they really like? Proteus spam is fun and all but I’d like to field my Gravis stuff.
I'm a bit of a broken record about it, but I do enjoy the 6/4 HI/Eradicator formation. Combat squad it down and you've got a manageable blend of points efficiency, killyness and unwasted shots that does work against tanks but really shines against elite heavy infantry.
Unrelated: It's been a hot minute since I've seen a competitive Deathwatch list that brought me joy, but we finally got one:
Librarian [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: 1. Premorphic Resonance, 2. Fortified With Contempt, Boltgun, Force sword, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
. 2. Paragon of their Chapter: Ultramarines: Adept of the Codex
Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, -1CP, 140pts]: 5. Recitation of Focus, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), 6. The Ties That Bind (Aura), Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched, The Beacon Angelis, Warlord, Wise Orator
Pretty standard list really. Proteus spam has proved our most competitive choice for a while now. The main difference here is the second half of the list isn't dreadnought spam, which moves the HQ selection into a bit more close combat support than normal.
Heavy use of Proteus teams has been keeping the faction going yes, but almost exclusively in the guise of delivering specialized combat squads alongside suicide Shotgun Vets. This is the first time I can recall seeing the kinds of formations that look like actual Kill Teams.
Terminators, VanVet, Bike, Black Shield and the obligatory Vets in the same unit? Yes fething please.
Can somebody explain the value of shotgun vets to me? I’m seeing them more and more lately. I get they’re cheap and can dump S5 into people, but it’s not a gigantic volume.
Rivener wrote: Can somebody explain the value of shotgun vets to me? I’m seeing them more and more lately. I get they’re cheap and can dump S5 into people, but it’s not a gigantic volume.
Cheap Assault type weapons with variable firing modes that can adapt to a variety of targets while also advancing and firing. They’re mostly just one of the preferred loadouts on the mandatory 5-Vet half of a combat squadded Proteus team.
Assault is the big advantage. mobile troops are big in 9th in general. They also benefit from the doctrine AP bonus a lot, where most guns don't have a good way to buff STR.
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Sterling191 wrote: Heavy use of Proteus teams has been keeping the faction going yes, but almost exclusively in the guise of delivering specialized combat squads alongside suicide Shotgun Vets. This is the first time I can recall seeing the kinds of formations that look like actual Kill Teams.
Terminators, VanVet, Bike, Black Shield and the obligatory Vets in the same unit? Yes fething please.
Gotcha. I have a team like this I use when I feel like running the Blackstar. I really wish they'd up the capacity on that thing to 15-16 though. Being unable to fit a 10 man KT is just really disappointing.
I am still saddened that they added Primaris to deathwatch. Would have been great saying the watch was one thing that happened to obstreperous first born that didn’t like the new regime.
The new rules seem interesting, really appeal to the kind of lists I think people would like to be able to make, but I think the tax it imposes is too great for what you get. Still, really cool stuff that someone could put a lot of time into and have a really dynamic, if inefficient gameplan.
That's pretty much where I'm at. If it didnt saddle you with 150-ish points of Specialism taxes *and* preclude you from taking the few efficiently costed fire support units in the Codex it'd be fantastic (Unit by unit BoV every turn for free, plus the ability to effectively triple up on CTs *and* the ludicrous auto-wound strat are all gold) it'd be worth a look.
But that's what you get when you double down on poor design I guess.
bullyboy wrote: who has the best recap on the new deathwatch abilities (article or video)?
You looking for just the readout on the rules, or more? Goonhammer has a bit up (their usual description lite take on new releases), but I have some disagreements about their interpretations about a few functionalities.
bullyboy wrote: who has the best recap on the new deathwatch abilities (article or video)?
You looking for just the readout on the rules, or more? Goonhammer has a bit up (their usual description lite take on new releases), but I have some disagreements about their interpretations about a few functionalities.
someone posted the 2 pages on FB this afternoon so I got all I need now, thanks!
So after a few reps with the AoR...I may be coming around to it (in a semi-casual environment). The points taxes aggravate me, as does the lack of ability to take constituent formations (IE: you can take a 5-man VanVet squad split from a Kill Team, but not a standalone squad of identical composition), and the bookkeeping is an absolute *nightmare* (seriously, remembering individual CTs for a dozen different units on the table is exhausting. I'm printing little dials I can sit next to each and spin to point at things so I have reminders).
But with all that said, the sheer tactical flexibility and capacity to build Kill Team lists to do completely wacky jobs is what I loved the most about Deathwatch in 8th. It's not the same thing here, but it's nearly as fun. And that's what matters right?
Sterling191 wrote: So after a few reps with the AoR...I may be coming around to it (in a semi-casual environment). The points taxes aggravate me, as does the lack of ability to take constituent formations (IE: you can take a 5-man VanVet squad split from a Kill Team, but not a standalone squad of identical composition), and the bookkeeping is an absolute *nightmare* (seriously, remembering individual CTs for a dozen different units on the table is exhausting. I'm printing little dials I can sit next to each and spin to point at things so I have reminders).
But with all that said, the sheer tactical flexibility and capacity to build Kill Team lists to do completely wacky jobs is what I loved the most about Deathwatch in 8th. It's not the same thing here, but it's nearly as fun. And that's what matters right?
wait, surely it's one CT for the whole army per Battle Round, not pick a different one for each unit. That would be a nightmare to handle since you cannot use the same one twice. It's my understanding that at the beginning of the BR you indicate that you are using say Raven Guard CT, and all units with the eligible keyword get to use that CT that battle round, plus the DW one if you took the WT and are within 6" of warlord.
wait, surely it's one CT for the whole army per Battle Round, not pick a different one for each unit. That would be a nightmare to handle since you cannot use the same one twice. It's my understanding that at the beginning of the BR you indicate that you are using say Raven Guard CT, and all units with the eligible keyword get to use that CT that battle round, plus the DW one if you took the WT and are within 6" of warlord.
Re-read the wording, it activates on a per unit basis. Doctrines and similar effects explicitly state they are active for your army, with a knock-on effect stating which affects the subparts have. VotLV explicitly functions in whole for this unit.
There is no stipulation in the VotLV ability that it can only activate once per battle round for your army, and since every unit gains the standalone ability it triggers for each individual unit at the beginning of each battle round.
So, I've bit the bullet and got my 1st deathwatch models, specifically a watch master and some heavy intercessors. Which armament option do you guys think is best for them? I plan to leave the on the rear objective, and I'm torn between the extra damage and AP on the executor types, the higher shots one the hellstorm, and the mix of the standard heavy rifles.
My primary opponents will be wolves, grey knights and necrons, If that matters.
wait, surely it's one CT for the whole army per Battle Round, not pick a different one for each unit. That would be a nightmare to handle since you cannot use the same one twice. It's my understanding that at the beginning of the BR you indicate that you are using say Raven Guard CT, and all units with the eligible keyword get to use that CT that battle round, plus the DW one if you took the WT and are within 6" of warlord.
Re-read the wording, it activates on a per unit basis. Doctrines and similar effects explicitly state they are active for your army, with a knock-on effect stating which affects the subparts have. VotLV explicitly functions in whole for this unit.
There is no stipulation in the VotLV ability that it can only activate once per battle round for your army, and since every unit gains the standalone ability it triggers for each individual unit at the beginning of each battle round.
This is a logistical nightmare since each unit can only use a chapter tactic once in a game (unless using the strat). Not only will you probably need markers for each unit (with the right symbol for each chapter...easy enough), but also keep track of which units have used which tactic already in previous turns so they don't repeat them.
I do wonder if this is the intent but it certainly seems super flexible.
This is a logistical nightmare since each unit can only use a chapter tactic once in a game (unless using the strat). Not only will you probably need markers for each unit (with the right symbol for each chapter...easy enough), but also keep track of which units have used which tactic already in previous turns so they don't repeat them.
I do wonder if this is the intent but it certainly seems super flexible.
It absolutely needs an FAQ to clarify intent.
Got another (entirely semi-casual) rep in last night against mixed Slaanesh Demons and Thousand Sons (it was two folks piloting 1000 points apiece but they teamed up on list building). I backlined to range out the TSons and make it harder for the ladies to get the T1 charge off, which was fortunate as I lost first turn. The ladies came out to play, but couldn't quite get across no man's land. The first turn psychic wave bounced off the BT 5+++, and he failed the 11 and 12 inch charges. Couple of terminator missiles largely plinked off shields and the Aegis. I misplayed the Extremis strat on a long shot to try and whittle down a Scarab team. It did not go well.
Turn 1 counterpunch was brutal. Two smaller blobs of daemonettes, all but one of his Fiends and his Keeper went down in shooting, and a Blackshield flattened the Epitome.
Turn 2 the dusty bois came out to play, and I dropped the Proteus team they were poised to overrun into Iron Hands for the FnP (I was trying not to min-max the list so no Apoth or Librarian for shrugs). Terminator Sorcerer yoinked their invuln, but between sheer wound count and the joys of massed 2+ armor saves I only lost a few Vets from the team in both shooting and fighting. Importantly the 30-lady blob failed its charge out of reserves, which pretty much won me the game.
Counterpunch was just as brutal Turn 2. Beacon brought my Indomitor squad to the thick of things, and it just liquified the 30-gal blob and a 5-man Scarab squad. The Spectrus team that had halved the Keeper swung around and popped a Sorcerer and an Infernal Master (WLT to make the squad untargetable is just ace by the way), and from there it was cleanup.
Takeaways:
BT shrugs pretty much won me the game. Having not only an ace to make the countercharge reliable, but also the psychic defense (I took no Libbys or Inquisitors) payed huge dividends. Likewise IF as a force multiplier for SIA is hellaciously potent when you throw enough dice on the table, and can rack up the damage very quickly even against multiwound models (I had a 5-man Stalker Boltgun team nearly delete a Scarab team in a single volley. AP3 D3 is no joke).
Having nearly on-demand offensive and defensive tools is a huge asset. It's tricksy to use for sure, but if you do it right it'll swing an entire match.
What are people's thoughts on a Proteus brick with 3x Cyclone Missile Termies and 4x normal missile launchers? It melee's and shoots equally well, and is Str 8 to go into Orks. Would the Cyclones by themselves be enough?
Librarian can throw the Mantle of Shadow on it to keep it from being sniped, and it would benefit nicely from the Chaplain's +1 to hit and +1 wound/closest.
Mine is 417 points with the Aquila upgrade, vanguard vet for fallback-shoot, and a Thunderhammer/Stormshield termie to soak damage. Is this too many points?
xerxeskingofking wrote: So, I've bit the bullet and got my 1st deathwatch models, specifically a watch master and some heavy intercessors. Which armament option do you guys think is best for them? I plan to leave the on the rear objective, and I'm torn between the extra damage and AP on the executor types, the higher shots one the hellstorm, and the mix of the standard heavy rifles.
My primary opponents will be wolves, grey knights and necrons, If that matters.
Hellstorm for normal and Executor for Heavy. Cutely we can mix and match where the normal unit has to stick to one type.
Sterling191 wrote: (WLT to make the squad untargetable is just ace by the way).
Does honoured veteran of the watch give any guidance on whether the sergeant or the unit is considered the warlord for the purposes of the trait? I thought it was just the sergeant so stealth adept wouldnt kick in until the rest of the kill team is dead (as you shoot the unit not the warlord, similar to how iron resolve surely doesnt give +1 wound and a shrug to each team member).
Also, with VotLV, I read it as working both ways - i.e. it is applied at unit level, but you cannot select a CT more than once (so can only blood angel 1 unit, army wide, cannot do so again for remainder of game). Probably in need of a few FAQs I guess.
Finally, does anyone have an opinion on what is best for the auto wound strat - quantity of shots or high ap+damage? Indomitor team with max bolt storm aggressors and imperial fists is putting forward a strong case for quantity over quality but theres probably a weird blend of mid strength-high damage weaponry that would benefit more.
Does honoured veteran of the watch give any guidance on whether the sergeant or the unit is considered the warlord for the purposes of the trait? I thought it was just the sergeant so stealth adept wouldnt kick in until the rest of the kill team is dead (as you shoot the unit not the warlord, similar to how iron resolve surely doesnt give +1 wound and a shrug to each team member).
It 100% needs an FAQ, but my understanding of the order of operations in the shooting phase is that you select a *unit* to target, not a model, which would include the Sergeant and therefore activate the trait.
Also, with VotLV, I read it as working both ways - i.e. it is applied at unit level, but you cannot select a CT more than once (so can only blood angel 1 unit, army wide, cannot do so again for remainder of game). Probably in need of a few FAQs I guess.
This is an entirely plausible interpretation of the wording, and I completely agree that it critically needs an FAQ to clarify.
Finally, does anyone have an opinion on what is best for the auto wound strat - quantity of shots or high ap+damage? Indomitor team with max bolt storm aggressors and imperial fists is putting forward a strong case for quantity over quality but theres probably a weird blend of mid strength-high damage weaponry that would benefit more.
They both have merits, and one of the big struggles right now is saving the CP to drop it in sequential turns.
bmsattler wrote: What are people's thoughts on a Proteus brick with 3x Cyclone Missile Termies and 4x normal missile launchers? It melee's and shoots equally well, and is Str 8 to go into Orks. Would the Cyclones by themselves be enough?
Librarian can throw the Mantle of Shadow on it to keep it from being sniped, and it would benefit nicely from the Chaplain's +1 to hit and +1 wound/closest.
Mine is 417 points with the Aquila upgrade, vanguard vet for fallback-shoot, and a Thunderhammer/Stormshield termie to soak damage. Is this too many points?
I'm trialling something similar, but went for more diverse/survive/mid options. I have made a DW battalion normal and a Patrol of 'Strike force' to test some of them (no way keeping track of all that in a full 'Strike force' etc... and I think can take a detachment of 'Strike force' and a Detachment of normal DW):
For my army this squad teleports in with captain support (re-roll 1's) or it has the option to combat squad with vets in one squad (deploy normally) and Vanguard/termies in the other (so they can tele for free if want/need).
Mainly trailing the auto wound stratagem for a mega punch when come down (can only use it once so). With the rest of my army the combo is ok (so long as can run a norm DW battalion and a 'Strike force' patrol?). But is super expensive and depends on if can deep strike at a good position, because of enemy screen out etc (that's why gave them the option of combat squad etc so have options after see enemy, if decide not to use strat, can combat squad and focus on other rules etc). I also have a jump Chap for +1 to hit if decide can commit so much to deep strike...
I think such an expensive squad has to be able to do multiple roles and not sit in the back, is why chose weapon options and why mainly went for the deep strike over sit back and shoot. Has the option, if no full squad deep strike, to go for combat squad and gives even more options (still expensive but options are good. How many times can I say options in a paragraph...lol).
Anyway from what I found (for this build and my complete army I am trialling atm) I think works ok and is a fun change. Competitive... to many eggs one basket, maybe.
xerxeskingofking wrote: So, I've bit the bullet and got my 1st deathwatch models, specifically a watch master and some heavy intercessors. Which armament option do you guys think is best for them? I plan to leave the on the rear objective, and I'm torn between the extra damage and AP on the executor types, the higher shots one the hellstorm, and the mix of the standard heavy rifles.
My primary opponents will be wolves, grey knights and necrons, If that matters.
I think Heavy intercessors are pretty trash tbh, the only reason to take them is if want to combat squad eradicators/inceptors to make Obsec. That being said, I have some of mine done up with Executor bolt rifles (I think the extra ap and damage are worth it and if combat squad say with eradicators (and mix them) they have a chance to do some damage if fire entire unit at one squad/vehicle and are there just to take hits, even if heavy. Moreover, if combat squad totally separate (like all Heavy Intercessors and all Inceptors etc), the HI Executors can sit back and do something from range if need, while say the Inceptors are free to do what you want them to do with Obsec).
For Wolves and Grey knights and if sitting back on objects than the Executors will defiantly be better (at least have the range and each hit has more of a chance to kill most times). This also gives you a better option I think if expand into other units (like eradicators or inceptors). I would not do multiple different weapon options atm, even though DW have the option (cause makes it so long when dice roll and you are still testing).
Suggestions for other backfield units:
For back field objectives (if just holding or ROD etc) servitors are a good choice. If want a unit to hold and can take some hits (pop off a few shots etc) that are primaris, I have found this squad ok if want to hold 2 back quarters/objectives:
Each unit can screen out deep strikers to 12", if is in cover or can chain back to cover with the Eliminators is a 1+ save and in one squad can ignore first failed armour save per turn.
I'm not a huge fan of primaris for DW. Most that primaris can do Vets or mixed Proteus kill teams can do similar or better and be more survivable for similar points.
Spectrus teams are one of our best toolbox units, especially with the current cost of Eliminators. They'll die horribly 95% of the time, but with smart composition, deployment and play depending on your opponent they can, and will, win you games.
My understanding is no, but you still have to shoot the entire unit at one target to qualify. You can't split-fire bolters at one target and the melta-rifles at another.
Edit: as far as rules questions go, I'll add my own. Have they clarified how giving a sergeant a warlord trait works on a unit? If I give them 'fight first' or 'can't be targeted if not the closest' how would that be limited to one model in a unit?
Simplycasualgaming wrote: Random rules question. Do I need to combat squad my eradicator kill team ( don't have my codex beside me) to get the double tap ability?
No, but the Kill Team rules do specify that only the Eradicators get to double shoot.
Edit: as far as rules questions go, I'll add my own. Have they clarified how giving a sergeant a warlord trait works on a unit? If I give them 'fight first' or 'can't be targeted if not the closest' how would that be limited to one model in a unit?
No FAQ yet involving the AOR or supplement strats.
FAQ for the AOR is up. CTs are chosen at the army level, and Honored Sergeant "only applies to the Sergeant model", which to my mind still leaves some ambiguity on a few interactions but the intent is there.
So, had my first game with the deathwatch yesterday. Lost badly on points, but i normally loose to this opponent and i killed a lot more than i've previously managed so happy enough. still, plently of work on points.
my force:
watch master, with Vigilance incarnate and the relic spear.
5 heavy intercessors in kill team (excutor heavy bolter and the assault 3 rifles)
firstborn kill team of 10, split in two:
sgt with xenophase blade, black shield, heavy hammer, heavy combi-flamer, and one regular vet.
2nd half: frag cannon and 4 regular vets
Redemptor dread with plasma cannon, fragstorms, icarus pod and fist gatling cannon.
my oppo was playing necrons, and experimenting with some of the new options the expansion of core gave him. he had
Lord on charriot-thingy
Cryptek
5 immortals
2 units of 5 Skorpekh Destroyers
a flock of scarabs (4 i think?)
anyway, he gets 1st turn, and due to solid buff stacking on his part (pregame move, 8" base move and 2 different move buffs) he was able to get one of the destroyers to pull off a turn 1 charge that just didnt see coming form necrons, and was in control of both centre objectives. he wiped out my fighty half of the 1stborn vets kill team before they had a chance to do anything other than score a wound via overwatch. he then consolidated into my dread (which promptly mushed one in payback). my turn starts, i dont really move out of my deployment zone as hes basically on top of me with a pair of blender units. in my shooting phase i realise i'd loaded my brand new redemptor (literally assembled the day before the battle and still in bare pastic, to my eternal shame), that i fully intended pre battle to get stuck into melee with, mainly with blast weapons (thinking he;d be running a 20 blob of warriors like he normally does)....that it now couldnt use as it'd been tagged. so, my shooting phase was pretty meh (killed a destroyer form the squad on the point), then charged the watch master in to wipe the destroyers in melee with the dread out, which they managed between them. His turn 2, he moves his scarabs to occuy a point then charges his remaining destroyers into my heavy intercessors, who thanks to transhuman only lose 2 blokes. i fall back in my turn, and the dread, finallly able to shoot, splits its fire between the immortals holding his back objective and the scarabs, removing most of both units (the watch master killed the last immortal with his shooting). i try and shoot the destoryers with the remaing vets but they fluff thier shots, and on his turn he charges them and wipes them out, and his lord charges my heavy intercessors and leaves just the sgt standing between shooting and melee. my turn 3 i have a grand total of 3 models on the field, the dread (on 7 wounds, still), the watch master, and the sgt. the watch master and the dread kill off the scarabs with shooting and then wipe out the destoryers on the charge, but at this point i accept that i can never make up the difference in primary scores and conceeded. However, he only really has his lord and the Cryptek left.
so, my take aways:
always expect 1st turn charges, you just don't know what tricks other armies can pull. I;d front loaded all my vets melee guys into a combat squad to contest the middle objectives but they never got a chance to move, or even fight as they were hacked apart before having a chance to act. i still dont know how good they;d have been in meleeif they got a go, but clearly i need to be more conservative with deployment.
my 2nd combat squad of vets didnt achieve much either, partly due to poor choices of my part (moved them when i didnt have to which stopped them double shooting). really, i had kinda planned to leave them on a rear objective but the mission layout didnt give me any, and they agian died after being charged without fighting.
Given the weak performance of the vets in melee, and the fact the 2nd combat squad was proxied with rubic marines to make up the numbers, i might swap its bolters for shotguns. honestly, i think i'd get more damage done form 4d6 hits form flamer shells on overwatch than by regular shooting.
The heavy intercessors did ok. their shooting wasnt great but, they didnt have much to shoot at, and my oppo kept popping a "-1 to wound" strat on the destroyers that limited their effectiveness. they were decently resilient, though, surviving much better than I had hoped.
Take more care when choosing dread weaponry. I was already planning to get a 2nd one anyway, and that one will have the storm bolters and heavy gatling cannon so it doesnt losse most of its firepower in melee and can shoot its way clear if tagged. however when it did get a chance to shoot, it was pretty effective, reducing 2 units to just a single model in a single phase of fire.
damage 3 relic spear clapped cheeks in this match up, but that might be because he had a preponderance of 3 wound targets it was highly efficient against. It might not be so good a choice if he'd gone for a different list.
i lost because i was boxed in on turn one, and maybe, given the speed of his units, i could have seen it coming, but he's never used them before so i'd not realised how fast they could move.
If I'd held back form the edge of my deployment, i might have denied him the charge, but i;d still have conceded the centre objectives to him and im not sure i had a good way to get him off quickly enough. in my previous few games with tsons, i have found myself having to leave a large expensive unit to watch a rear objective and miss most of the fighting, so this game i tried to go MSU a little. I did have enough squads this time, but now i lacked striking power except for the dread, which got tagged before acting.
I clearly need to revise this list somewhat before trying again. As mentioned above, maybe equip the vets with shotguns to save a few points and flameshot the hell out of any charger, and swap out the dread for one with less blast weapons as i cant effectively screen it at this points level.
What your guys opinions on the kill team specialisation? Do you think their worth taking and planning around or just a way to soak up a few loose points at the end of army building ?
xerxeskingofking wrote: What your guys opinions on the kill team specialisation? Do you think their worth taking and planning around or just a way to soak up a few loose points at the end of army building ?
Aquila always worth it IMO.
Rest are super situational and meta dependent, but in general I wouldn’t bother unless there is a specific thing your list is weak against, and you want the chance at full rerolls
Rest are super situational and meta dependent, but in general I wouldn’t bother unless there is a specific thing your list is weak against, and you want the chance at full rerolls
Agreed. Aquila is a nice points top off that always pulls its weight.
I think the -1 to hit if you have to move is more than compensated for with the +2 damage at 24. The assault version allows you to advance and charge. It also means that they can guarantee a kill on 3 wounds, and most likely on 4.
The biggest variables will be if you think you will stand still and how often you think the +2 will result in overkill
so, i asked this in the general SM thread, and go exactly zero bites, so since this still seems to be alive i;m copy-pasting this here:
I have a decision to make in the near-ish future and i would like your input:
Im planning on getting the base marine combat patrol box, mainly because I'm planning to run a spectrus kill team with eliminators in it, and for relitively little more (£20 ish), i can get the parts i need for that, PLUS the impossible to get elsewhere supressors, a LT and implusor.
my question relates to the implusor and the loadout options for it. Im planning to stick the iornhail stubber on it with storm bolters for the side guns, but im not sure what would be best on the "rear" mount.
options, and my thoughts so far, are:
orbital comms array: seems rather underwhelming, a one shot trick for a few mortal wounds, frankly it would have been better as a stratagem
Ironhail skytalon array: twin linked stubber with +1 to aircraft? 3.4 rotogens, not great, not terrible for 10 points.
shield dome: a 5++ save is nice, i suppose, but given the prolifteration of MW and ignores invul tricks these days, it might not be worth that much.
Bellicatus missle array: agian, 3.4 rotogens, but 20 points is a bit steep for a what amounts to a the same weapon i can get on a tac marine for 15 points with a sometimes useful anti air trick.
no rear mount: always an option, as its a transport, not a tank, but seems a bit of a waste.
Its still hypotheical for me at the moment, as I neither have the implusor kit, nor do i really have a clear role for it when i get it, given most of my current deathwatch army cant ride in it. Most likely would be a quintet of regular intercesssors for some objective sniping.
so, what do you guys put on your implusors, if anything?
Keep it as cheap as possible, if have extra points put upgrades on it (prob the 5+invul, depend what running in it). Lots of videos out there on how to magnatise to have all the options and try for yourself.
If not really gunna use it (I have 3 and rarely use them, cause Proteus kill teams are the bomb), is an easy model to practise magnatising etc.
And guranteed 3 damage is huge against most enemies? Custodes? guaranteed dead custodes and 5/6 dead biker and terminator.
The fact that you can 1/6 a broadside can be huge.
The final thing I think will be important into Tau with drones specifically will be knowing when to slow roll or not with your kill teams.
Puts a hellblaster wound into a broadside? Switch to your heavy melta rifle or multi-melta until it dies. Puts it into a drone? Use Hellblaster bolt guns until it dies etc.
Dont let them get all the advantages of having perfect information when allocating their wounds for an optimal placement.
Same sort of thing we do with our proteus kill teams in reverse
Hoping to breath a little life into this forum as im excited to start my first SM army since 5 edition.
Been really digging DW and been watching many vids of Swisshammer as hes been doing a great job of keeping up with DW tournament placements and meta shifts.
Love the playstyle but concerned with the overall price tag of each unit and the relatively small amout of units we have on the board.
Feel like its very glass cannon but extremely toolbox maybe like eldar.
Currently digging the double indomitor kill team, one with aggressors and the other with Eradicators that can be Combat Squaded 2/3 to maximize the double tap, and minimize the overkill potential.
Due to the somewhat close range nature of alot of our options I feel like most T1s are just running to get into position and popping Extremis on turns 2 and 3.
Are there any reliable ways to get into CC T1 with chaplain buffs? or any ways to get Charge after advance in our toolbox?
Dr.Duck wrote: Hoping to breath a little life into this forum as im excited to start my first SM army since 5 edition.
Been really digging DW and been watching many vids of Swisshammer as hes been doing a great job of keeping up with DW tournament placements and meta shifts.
Love the playstyle but concerned with the overall price tag of each unit and the relatively small amout of units we have on the board.
Feel like its very glass cannon but extremely toolbox maybe like eldar.
Currently digging the double indomitor kill team, one with aggressors and the other with Eradicators that can be Combat Squaded 2/3 to maximize the double tap, and minimize the overkill potential.
Due to the somewhat close range nature of alot of our options I feel like most T1s are just running to get into position and popping Extremis on turns 2 and 3.
Are there any reliable ways to get into CC T1 with chaplain buffs? or any ways to get Charge after advance in our toolbox?
a few:
to answer your last question first, using the "BROTHERHOOD OF VETERANS" stratagem, we can put a unit into the white scars chapter tactic of "LIGHTNING ASSAULT" (ie advance and charge, no penalty to shooting after advancing), but in doing so the unit looses the "XENOS HUNTERS" tactic.
given we have full access to the traditional marine assault units like vanguard veterans, we can throw them into this, and get 18+2d6 charges out of them. and, using kill team rules, we can give van vets obsec, which is nice. tag a bike chaplin along for the ride and watch them zoom!
Dr.Duck wrote: Hoping to breath a little life into this forum as im excited to start my first SM army since 5 edition.
Been really digging DW and been watching many vids of Swisshammer as hes been doing a great job of keeping up with DW tournament placements and meta shifts.
Love the playstyle but concerned with the overall price tag of each unit and the relatively small amout of units we have on the board.
Feel like its very glass cannon but extremely toolbox maybe like eldar.
Currently digging the double indomitor kill team, one with aggressors and the other with Eradicators that can be Combat Squaded 2/3 to maximize the double tap, and minimize the overkill potential.
Due to the somewhat close range nature of alot of our options I feel like most T1s are just running to get into position and popping Extremis on turns 2 and 3.
Are there any reliable ways to get into CC T1 with chaplain buffs? or any ways to get Charge after advance in our toolbox?
a few:
to answer your last question first, using the "BROTHERHOOD OF VETERANS" stratagem, we can put a unit into the white scars chapter tactic of "LIGHTNING ASSAULT" (ie advance and charge, no penalty to shooting after advancing), but in doing so the unit looses the "XENOS HUNTERS" tactic.
given we have full access to the traditional marine assault units like vanguard veterans, we can throw them into this, and get 18+2d6 charges out of them. and, using kill team rules, we can give van vets obsec, which is nice. tag a bike chaplin along for the ride and watch them zoom!
I dig it, although if in AOR I think they can just pick Scars for T1 chapter tactic and not have to spend the CP unless you wanted a different one army wide and just Scars for that one squad.
Wondering about your 18+2D6. If the unit had bikes wouldn't it be 14 + D6 advance + 2 from Canticle of Hate +2D6. Followed by a 6 inch pile in.
Put a 1k list together for some practice games on TTS.
Prime Chap in Bike
Prime Apothacary
Indomitor 5 Heavies (1HB) 5 Eradicators (1 MM) Likely to combat Squad
Proteus
-4x Shotguns
-3x Terminators CML Sword
-1x Bike
-1x Shield Hammer Chainsword
-1x Sarg Hammer
With the CP changes, I don't know that the AoR is quite the asset it used to be. Don't get me wrong the CT shifting tricks are always a good time and can lend some clutch flexibility, but the extra points and the loss of heavier units (or units outside Kill Teams) is a major drawback.
To me not much of the rest of the SM roster really jumps out at me. Other than Redemptor Dreads, attack bikes or maybe the new preds. But I still feel like they dont really offer anything new.
I think the CT shifting gives much needed flexibility to adapt to a opposing list outside of the list building process.
I am eager to try out double spectrus teams with the points reduction to Fusils and specialisms. They saw a drop of 30 pts total which is quite nice for a unit that can be fairly hard to remove and offers moderate consistant AT.
First thing I noticed was that even though doctrines have been improved, our Mission Tactics wasn't adjusted. Makes our unique chapter super doctrine pretty useless when chapter can just stay in devestator all game.
Other than that, free wargear on veterans making vet based teams expensive but hard hitting. I might actually get to use a frag cannon in 9th yet!
The biggest change: probably every DW Vet in most armies is now objectively equipped wrong. At 27 points you need to have more than just a shotgun or bolter to justify your existence. In fact, there's now literally no point to having a Vet with a boltgun (or meltagun, flamer, plasma - not that those were ever taken) as the combi weapons are now objectively better.
I suspect there's some pretty good combos with the Vets but you'll need some pretty extensive proxying or very esoteric models to unlock them.
Yeah, definitely a shame, I was always fond of the basic weapons vets had but between 9th gakking on sia and the new points I don’t think they’re getting pulled out of the loadout bin for a while.
Does someone have any fun ideas on mixing Intercessors, Hellblasters and Desolators in a Kill Team? Key word here being fun not necessarily optimal. Thinking about taking my stalker/heavy plasma kill team add in some regular bolters and both variety of missiles to form two new kill teams of some sort myself.
so, in addition to the base "oaths of moment" faction ability of all space marines (full re-rolls to hit and wound vs one named unit per turn), our deathwatch detachment (called the Black Spear Taskforce detachment) ability is a return of Mission tactics. We can grant all astartes units in the army:
Substained hits1 (ie exploding 6s to hit)
Lethal Hits (ie 6s to hit auto-wound)
Precision (6s to hit can target characters in units)
we can only use each tactic once (though i hold out hope for a stratagem that lets us repeat a mission tactic)
They also previewed the Deathwatch veterans datasheet front (ie the stats, not the unit composition rules). the old special issue ammo is gone with bolters having the standard bolter profile, as are shotguns by name, but they have introduced "long vigil ranged weapon" as a catch-all weapon, which i'm guessing covers shotguns. Its a 24", 1 shot str 4 AP 0 D1 weapon, with rapid fire 1, anti-infantry 4+ (ie always wounds on a 4+ vs INFANTRY, and any wound over that value is a Critical wound) and devistating wounds (critical wounds deal mortal wounds). So, they are not bad at short range, at least against infantry units. Frag cannons are lost their multiple profiles, but are str 7 blast with D3 attacks and rapid fire D3 (which would kick in at 9"), and infurnus heavy bolters can no long shoot both profiles, but the heavy bolter half has gained Substained hits1.
also, they appear to have consolidated the various power weapon options into "long vigil melee weapon", which is A3, 3+. str 5 ap-2 d1. Heavy thunder hammers and xenophase blades are still a thing, though.
im not sure how we will pan out, but im reasonably happy with these. im not sure if we are getting sprue-locked, but the rules for a missile lunacher suggest we are not.
Special issue ammo are now three separate stratagem, which are either one regular marine unit or two kill teams.
Kill Teams are basically similar, built around 5 of the base infantry for that armour type, but extras have gone down to 0-4, or even 0-2, and combat squadding is gone, so no more 5 man eliminators with obsec.
Watch masters grant both advance and CHARGE AND fall back and charge.
Yep, glad I didn't build what I'd had in mind for our last 9e Crusade.
Still might be interested in doing some DW (i like the idea & their flyer model).
But I'll have to sit down & fiddle with it once thier actual Codex arrives & see if I can make something I like 10e wise to go with those flyers.
Other things of note:
1. Van vets continue to get dunked on. No heavy hammers at all, not in Proteus kill team (although regular vets can as the heavy hammers are in their boxset or something), no extra entries for stand alone van vets.
2. Quite a few minor mistakes, for example the spectrus team lists out all the weapon profiles you would expect, but no one has access to anything other than default gear (swapping out for reiver bolt carbines, las fusils etc).
4. Terminators keep basically all their options (including triple heavies, plasma cannons and sergeant having melee choices), but cyclone + hammer is a no no.
5. Vet squad is now a kill team, vet bikers and DW terminators are not though (useful for activating strats).
6. Proteus kill team is easily the strongest option. Not-combi weapons and assault cannons can wombo combo their inbuilt devastating wounds with hellfire rounds strat. Presumably if you stick a firstborn captain in one of two such units you can use the strat for free/twice.
**edit** and another mark against the van vets, they ran out of ammo so don't get guns of any kind when in a proteus kill team (generic long vigil melee weapon and ccw only).
Proteus Kill Teams are one of the tamest offenders when it comes to MW output with Hellfire. A Sternguard brick is putting out ~25 - 50 MWs in an activation (if you want to burn their double tap), Assault Cannon Termies will put out 15 by themselves if you tipple up, ditto for an Eliminator unit + Captain, except that's directly into the face of a Character thanks to Precision.
My personal favorite stupid coalescence is the Bike squad + Chaplain with a Multi-melta Attack bike putting out a solid 10+ MWs on average by itself in melta range.
We're codex Hellfire + Devastating Wounds now, and it's gonna get nuked from orbit (rightly so)
so, today in the imperium article, GW mentioned its pushed out a patch to hellfire rounds, which now has a "except [devastating wounds] weapons" restriction added to it.
While it should have been caught in playtesting and never been seen by the wider public, Props to GW for taking quick action to remove this most problematic interaction before deathwatch either had a reign of terror, or got insta-banned form every tournament.
"For the purposes of interacting with terrain features, all models in units with the Kill Team ability are treated as Infantry, even though similar models in other units may have the Mounted or Jump Pack keywords."
Does that mean that kill teams with bikes have the mounted keyword? Cant see anything about it on the cards.
Gaen wrote: "For the purposes of interacting with terrain features, all models in units with the Kill Team ability are treated as Infantry, even though similar models in other units may have the Mounted or Jump Pack keywords."
Does that mean that kill teams with bikes have the mounted keyword? Cant see anything about it on the cards.
form the literal wording of that quoted sentence, no.
A biker marine in a [kill team] keyworded unit is just a long based infantryman, able to climb walls, etc. the fact that the same model in a vet bikers unit WOULD be [mounted] is being called out as irrelevant for purposes of moving over terrain.
tneva82 wrote: Wish it saia clearer imounted is replaced and not have both.
well, the bikes haven't LOST the keyword, its just replaced with [infantry] for the purposes of movement, and ONLY then.
if you hypotheticaly shot at the squad with an [anti-mounted] weapon, it would get its bonus (though i admit that is based on some secondhand reading of goonhammer stuff, i can't point to a designers commentary where they spell that out)
So cost wise, looks like there's a tax on the Proteus Kill Team. No way to save on that model selection. The rest can get a small discount, but I'm pretty sure they're weaker versions in a lot of cases.
Now we have four units that dont have a kill team to belong to.
Infernus
Primaris Jump
New Sternguard
Desolators
Speaking of kill teams think we will get any new once or will the new units fit into the old once? New sternguard and new Terminators or thats too close to proteus?
my assumption is they will fold all of those into the existing Fortis kill team (as they are all tacticus armoured marines), if they do bring them in at all (as opposed to just letting us use them as their codex datasheet units).
the other option i could see happening is a separation of all the jump capable suits into a single all jump kill team, but thats less likely in my opinion.
