chaos0xomega wrote: Wholly unsurprised by this - also wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of the individuals posting in this thread were part of the community of harassers that drove SODAZ away, given their apparent feelings of entitlement to those animations and the anger displayed over SODAZ getting a job at GW.
Looks like the outrage blew up in their face though, not only are they not getting the animations from GW any longer, but they are also not getting them from youtube either since they called it quits on the Warhammer IP entirely.
some almost certainly are here, i'm willing to bet they were some of the more vocal ones in the female space marine threads that got locked down .
chaos0xomega wrote: Wholly unsurprised by this - also wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of the individuals posting in this thread were part of the community of harassers that drove SODAZ away, given their apparent feelings of entitlement to those animations and the anger displayed over SODAZ getting a job at GW.
Looks like the outrage blew up in their face though, not only are they not getting the animations from GW any longer, but they are also not getting them from youtube either since they called it quits on the Warhammer IP entirely.
some almost certainly are here, i'm willing to bet they were some of the more vocal ones in the female space marine threads that got locked down .
Incredibly uncalled for.
how so? its relevant to the topic. it eventually got closed down due to the toxicity and Sodaz sadly is leaving due to the toxicity. no names listed just pointing out if that kind of behavior is what made him quit making awesome 40k content and we have that behavior here... well
I'm going out on a limb here, but "Tell me you were vocal in the female space marine threads without telling me you were vocal in the space marine threads".
Apologies in advance if I got the wrong read of things, I just don't see why else someone might feel that statement was uncalled for.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'm going out on a limb here, but "Tell me you were vocal in the female space marine threads without telling me you were vocal in the space marine threads".
Apologies in advance if I got the wrong read of things, I just don't see why else someone might feel that statement was uncalled for.
right. i think i had 1-2 comments in each as to how i think the lore might work if GW decided to to so but moslty i just read and lurked in there myself shaking my head as people attacked each other. Like come on people its a hobby for us to all paint, roll some dice and enjoy.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'm going out on a limb here, but "Tell me you were vocal in the female space marine threads without telling me you were vocal in the space marine threads".
Apologies in advance if I got the wrong read of things, I just don't see why else someone might feel that statement was uncalled for.
The second possibility is that one could have been toxic towards Sodaz but not vocal in the FSM threads, and shame on you for even suggesting!
We can say for sure that the 40k community has a serious harassment problem. Whenever it happens, and it does happen, it's either brushed off as not real/overexaggerating or the victims get told to "toughen up" or "get a thicker skin". All too often people say "oh but I never get harassed" or "but I never saw any harassment". Are you* reading the victim's DM's on every single platform they're on? Have you considered they don't want to keep records of harassing messages just to prove it every time some random on the Internet asks for evidence?
It is something that seriously needs to be addressed.
*"You" in this instance is not aimed at any individual.
And just so there's no mistaking my position on this, an out and out racist/sexist/homophobe/etc getting kicked out of a community is not harassment or bullying, it's community management for the safety of its members.
Arcanis161 wrote: ...Are you guys trying to get this thread shut down?
Just curious.
More hoping there is introspection on toxicity, Maybe make the community a little bit better of a place. Now that Sodaz has quit because of toxicity those engaging in that behavior might hopefully decide to try to be nicer? Even if it is for the selfish reason of it is driving off creative cool people making quality 40k content that was (as far as i can tell) universally loved by the community.
They won't be nicer, they'll just find a new target. They'll pat themselves on the back for a job well done and look for the next person who's life they want to make miserable.
kirotheavenger wrote: 40k is a large community, I don't think it has an abnormal harassment problem at all.
In fact rather the opposite.
Actually I'd say there is a problem, its just not prevalent within the community toward the community.
Instead its more targeted at GW and those who choose to work with GW. It's why GW no longer has a "head" name on the codex/battletomes. It's why some authors have stepped away from BL. Within Warhammer it is allowed, even encouraged, to insult and be negative toward GW itself. The problem is some people take that too far and instead of just generic "I hate GW prices" they get personal. They find the emails of key staffers and they sling abuse and hate at them - fuelled by the casual GW hate that exists.
Note I'm drawing a line between criticism and hate here. The two are NOT the same.
In general generic GW hate harms no one because its generic and is mostly venting (often at prices). But it sets a tone that such things are tolerated and it encourages others to go further. They DO take it further, they do slink hate and insults and worse at people. Doing so by finding personal emails and communication points. Thing is most people are not prepared for that kind of targeted abuse. They can take critique, they can take feedback, they can take comments - but not targeted abuse and hate. It's a very different beast; esp when this is, at the end of the day, a hobby industry that's pretty niche
chaos0xomega wrote: Wholly unsurprised by this - also wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of the individuals posting in this thread were part of the community of harassers that drove SODAZ away, given their apparent feelings of entitlement to those animations and the anger displayed over SODAZ getting a job at GW.
Looks like the outrage blew up in their face though, not only are they not getting the animations from GW any longer, but they are also not getting them from youtube either since they called it quits on the Warhammer IP entirely.
some almost certainly are here, i'm willing to bet they were some of the more vocal ones in the female space marine threads that got locked down .
Incredibly uncalled for.
how so? its relevant to the topic. it eventually got closed down due to the toxicity and Sodaz sadly is leaving due to the toxicity. no names listed just pointing out if that kind of behavior is what made him quit making awesome 40k content and we have that behavior here... well
How broad of a brush are we painting with here? This person disagrees with me therefore I fault them with targeted abuse at some poor fan-film creator? Seems a little sus.
Looking through the reddit thread I wouldn't be surprised if the creator pulled out because of a lot of the "honest critique". Making stuff is hard, critique is easy. Anonymous critique that's an auxilliary to making some other point on the internet . . . The sky's the limit.
I've seen a few facebook groups that harbored such ill members of the community. I don't think I've ever seen them have a constructive conversation about 3d printing, recasting, 3rd party models or the prospect of female marines. Not to mention a few too many models built in poor taste involving orks and certain political movements. I certainly don't see that much inflammatory behavior on this website, but that could just be the mods doing a good job.
Once again, the internet creates and then promptly destroys another good thing.
This entire situation seems incredibly self defeating from all sides. Gw shutting down free fan made content to drive people to warhammer + instead is weird. People will pay for your content if it's good. A 6 minute free video isn't going to drive consumers away. If anything it's going to get them to want more.
Getting mad at a small presumably self employed creator for being scared out of his mind by a multinational company that could ruin your life is weird as well.
Fan content will always be in a legal grey area. Especially if donations, patreons, paypals, etc are involved.
I hope he finds success in another fandom or media property to make some cool stuff.
Gert wrote: We can say for sure that the 40k community has a serious harassment problem. Whenever it happens, and it does happen, it's either brushed off as not real/overexaggerating or the victims get told to "toughen up" or "get a thicker skin". All too often people say "oh but I never get harassed" or "but I never saw any harassment". Are you* reading the victim's DM's on every single platform they're on? Have you considered they don't want to keep records of harassing messages just to prove it every time some random on the Internet asks for evidence?
It is something that seriously needs to be addressed.
*"You" in this instance is not aimed at any individual.
And just so there's no mistaking my position on this, an out and out racist/sexist/homophobe/etc getting kicked out of a community is not harassment or bullying, it's community management for the safety of its members.
Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but why limit your scope to those people? Wouldn't Uncivil be a more effective, all encompassing term? Was SODAZ shut down by racists and homophobes?.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but why limit your scope to those people? Wouldn't Uncivil be a more effective, all encompassing term? Was SODAZ shut down by racists and homophobes?.
Firstly, you missed the whole "etc" bit.
Secondly, you can't legislate for "uncivil" the way you can for hate speech. Swearing and cursing are often viewed as uncivil, are you going to kick out every single person who swears/curses? No, because you wouldn't have a community because everyone swears/curses now and then. If someone is swearing and cursing at someone that is different from them saying "Holy bleep my Captain just got shanked by a Grot" and the individual should be reprimanded for their behavior.
As for my specific example, I've seen so many bad faith actors cry about their favourite fascist/racist/sexist getting "bullied" despite the fact that person organised hate or harassment campaigns against minority hobbyists. It's not bullying, it's consequences for illegal behaviour.
Gert wrote: you can't legislate for "uncivil" the way you can for hate speech.
Why not? They're both equally nebulous terms that have no business being inscribed into law.
But if you can legislate for one then you can most certainly legislate for the other. Same way that "grossly offensive" internet content is a crime in the UK, despite offence (gross or otherwise) being entirely subjective.
Gert wrote: They won't be nicer, they'll just find a new target. They'll pat themselves on the back for a job well done and look for the next person who's life they want to make miserable.
Well, the thing is here it seems like the harassers wanted SODAZ to go back to making 40k animations that were published for free instead of via the Warhammer + platform. So it wasn't about making someone miserable, it was about being a bunch of selfish, entitled, petulant children.
kirotheavenger wrote: 40k is a large community, I don't think it has an abnormal harassment problem at all.
In fact rather the opposite.
Actually I'd say there is a problem, its just not prevalent within the community toward the community.
Instead its more targeted at GW and those who choose to work with GW. It's why GW no longer has a "head" name on the codex/battletomes. It's why some authors have stepped away from BL.
I agree with your sentiment overhead but feel.you are wrong in this particular part. A lot of the toxicity is targeted within the community as well and against other community members as well.as against the evil gw.
You tend to see this manifesting via the cult of officialdom against people who are regarded as 'stepping outside of the lines' eg certain recent topics that the mods have stayed here that are not to be repeated. (Out of respect, let's not go there) and also manifesting via aggro and all kinds of nastiness towards people perceived as 'having badwrongfun' with the hobby eg the endless snark that is inherent in the 'competitive versus casual', 'painted or unpainted' or 'is it OK to homebrew or MUST we follow rules that are clearly broken?' that pop up all thr time. There are some extremely toxic elements within our community.
Why not? They're both equally nebulous terms that have no business being inscribed into law.
But if you can legislate for one then you can most certainly legislate for the other. Same way that "grossly offensive" internet content is a crime in the UK, despite offence (gross or otherwise) being entirely subjective.
Call someone an idiot in front of your boss, then direct a racial slur at them and see which you're getting fired for.
Well, the thing is here it seems like the harassers wanted SODAZ to go back to making 40k animations that were published for free instead of via the Warhammer + platform. So it wasn't about making someone miserable, it was about being a bunch of selfish, entitled, petulant children.
People don't harass other people to make them happy though do they?
Sledgehammer wrote: This entire situation seems incredibly self defeating from all sides. Gw shutting down free fan made content to drive people to warhammer + instead is weird. People will pay for your content if it's good. A 6 minute free video isn't going to drive consumers away. If anything it's going to get them to want more.
Getting mad at a small presumably self employed creator for being scared out of his mind by a multinational company that could ruin your life is weird as well.
Some incredible contortions going on here.....
No, he was scared by 'fans' who model themselves as 'anti-GW crusaders', and who apparently felt affronted that he 'sold-out' to their great enemy.
All GW did was offer employment to a creater who was using their property to make money.
I feel like it might legitimately be a goal of people to lock as many threads as possible. Dakka can get vitriolic at points, but people here go for the throat on topics like this and the recently locked threads.
Why not? They're both equally nebulous terms that have no business being inscribed into law.
But if you can legislate for one then you can most certainly legislate for the other. Same way that "grossly offensive" internet content is a crime in the UK, despite offence (gross or otherwise) being entirely subjective.
Call someone an idiot in front of your boss, then direct a racial slur at them and see which you're getting fired for.
Pretty sure you can get reprimanded for that too. Especially if it's a tirade of insults, which was the sort of incivility I was thinking of.
Sledgehammer wrote: This entire situation seems incredibly self defeating from all sides. Gw shutting down free fan made content to drive people to warhammer + instead is weird. People will pay for your content if it's good. A 6 minute free video isn't going to drive consumers away. If anything it's going to get them to want more.
Getting mad at a small presumably self employed creator for being scared out of his mind by a multinational company that could ruin your life is weird as well.
Some incredible contortions going on here.....
No, he was scared by 'fans' who model themselves as 'anti-GW crusaders', and who apparently felt affronted that he 'sold-out' to their great enemy.
All GW did was offer employment to a creater who was using their property to make money.
I mean it sounds like they told him to take his videos down and didn't communicate with him very well, if at all, as to what their intentions were. It took over a month for them to actually reach out and by then the damage was done by both mal actors within the community and GW not being effectively able to communicate.
Sledgehammer wrote: This entire situation seems incredibly self defeating from all sides. Gw shutting down free fan made content to drive people to warhammer + instead is weird. People will pay for your content if it's good. A 6 minute free video isn't going to drive consumers away. If anything it's going to get them to want more.
Getting mad at a small presumably self employed creator for being scared out of his mind by a multinational company that could ruin your life is weird as well.
Some incredible contortions going on here.....
No, he was scared by 'fans' who model themselves as 'anti-GW crusaders', and who apparently felt affronted that he 'sold-out' to their great enemy.
All GW did was offer employment to a creater who was using their property to make money.
Call someone an idiot in front of your boss, then direct a racial slur at them and see which you're getting fired for.
If you work for, say, The Guardian and the racial slur is 'gammon', I'd wager you'd be promoted rather than fired. Because racial slurs (which you seem to have taken as some sort of litmus test for Hate Speech) demonstrably only count if they're directed against the wrong group. Indeed, so long as you limit yourself to the "correct" targets, you can be as vicious and hateful as you like. Almost as if nebulous laws of these kind exist not to limit "hateful" speech but as a cudgel with which to beat one's political enemies.
Alas, I know that you and those like you will continue to cheer on the removal of speech and liberty, thinking you are on the "correct" side and thus will never have to fear comeuppance.
But someday you will overstep a line you never even knew existed and find yourself suddenly on the wrong side of all those laws you helped bring about. On that day, you will cry for the same liberties you helped to strip from so many others, though your cries will fall on deaf ears, and by then you will have already succeeded in silencing anyone who could have spoken out in your defence.
I know you will sneer now but that fateful day will come; and when it does, you will finally realise that brick by brick you built your own prison.
Call someone an idiot in front of your boss, then direct a racial slur at them and see which you're getting fired for.
If you work for, say, The Guardian and the racial slur is 'gammon', I'd wager you'd be promoted rather than fired. Because racial slurs (which you seem to have taken as some sort of litmus test for Hate Speech) demonstrably only count if they're directed against the wrong group. Indeed, so long as you limit yourself to the "correct" targets, you can be as vicious and hateful as you like. Almost as if nebulous laws of these kind exist not to limit "hateful" speech but as a cudgel with which to beat one's political enemies.
Alas, I know that you and those like you will continue to cheer on the removal of speech and liberty, thinking you are on the "correct" side and thus will never have to fear comeuppance.
But someday you will overstep a line you never even knew existed and find yourself suddenly on the wrong side of all those laws you helped bring about. On that day, you will cry for the same liberties you helped to strip from so many others, though your cries will fall on deaf ears, and by then you will have already succeeded in silencing anyone who could have spoken out in your defence.
I know you will sneer now but that fateful day will come; and when it does, you will finally realise that brick by brick you built your own prison.
This right here, is an excellent example of a political post framed just non-politically enough to bypass Dakka's rules. We all know the political side this is representing, and we all know the political side it is directed at. This could be put straight onto a political news network without edits and it would fit perfectly.
Sledgehammer wrote: This entire situation seems incredibly self defeating from all sides. Gw shutting down free fan made content to drive people to warhammer + instead is weird. People will pay for your content if it's good. A 6 minute free video isn't going to drive consumers away. If anything it's going to get them to want more.
Getting mad at a small presumably self employed creator for being scared out of his mind by a multinational company that could ruin your life is weird as well.
Some incredible contortions going on here.....
No, he was scared by 'fans' who model themselves as 'anti-GW crusaders', and who apparently felt affronted that he 'sold-out' to their great enemy.
All GW did was offer employment to a creater who was using their property to make money.
Wow is that it? Poor guy.
Yeah, my sympathy to him. I can't fault his decision.
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kirotheavenger wrote: 40k is a large community, I don't think it has an abnormal harassment problem at all.
In fact rather the opposite.
I agree that the problem is not abnormal. It IS a problem, but it is one far from unique to Warhammer. The internet in general had already served to enable to worst kinds of communication and coupled with political trends of the past decade it has led to more people crossing the acceptable line of free speech* and doing it more egregiously.
*One's right to free speech ends when they use it to harm others.
Just nonsense that all the "anti-GW crusaders" never actually hurt GW just the community and individual people. Wouldn't be surprised if all the people who ended up working on the WH+ Animation stuff got kept anonymous to keep them safe.
ok first of all vipod and the rest of you yammering about hate speach laws , you're making a political arguement, Kindly shut up and don't get this thread locked.
Ok secondly as for the toxicity in the culture.. it's there but I don't think it's something unique to 40k.
Diasy Ridley and Kellie Marie Tan being bullied off the internet is well known and plenty of youtubers no doubt have as well.
I'd say it's a problem with the internet not 40kTBH
ok first of all vipod and the rest of you yammering about hate speach laws , you're making a political arguement, Kindly shut up and don't get this thread locked.
Ok secondly as for the toxicity in the culture.. it's there but I don't think it's something unique to 40k.
Diasy Ridley and Kellie Marie Tan being bullied off the internet is well known and plenty of youtubers no doubt have as well.
I'd say it's a problem with the internet not 40kTBH
Anyone who thinks words can;t hurt is a fething moron whose never been bullied
I think there's also a degree of...... ownership involved around fan bases and intellectual property. Some companies just don't care about what they think, or actively try to get them to leave.Disney in a way went to war with its established fan base with that trilogy and the actors got the hate from the worst of them. Anyway, If you want to see what real war against a fanbase is, look at the smash melee competitive scene, now that's REALLY interesting.
I think this IS partially GWs fault for not understanding how many perceive them and their actions as a company. They do come across as a bully at times, and taking down the videos did feel like they were taking something AWAY from the audience rather than providing them with something more. I think taking down the videos was the wrong move here. Their communication of both their intentions and their product were poorly telegraphed and they failed to control the narrative that came up around it. This created an environment for toxicity to be levied at those who fell in line with "the bad guy". In no way does that excuse the behavior.
Sticks and stones always was a sentiment most often expressed by those who weren't on the receiving end of the offence.
When I was a kid, and got beaten up at school on a regular basis for being "the fat kid," my teachers always used to hit me with "Sticks and Stones." And then one day I told one of those teachers that I thought the dress code was fascist because they had a problem with an Iron Maiden back patch. And when that teacher sent me to the office, I said, "Sticks and stones will break your bones, but names aren't supposed to hurt your dress code".
Guess what?
They still sent me to the office, and pointing out the inherent hypocrisy of the statement had the effect of getting me labeled as a smart ass, rather than being evaluated for its merit within the context of civil discourse.
Similarly, when straight, white, cis-gendered men express thoughts like "That which does not kill you" or "Sticks and stones" or any of the other tropes, they themselves often cannot directly relate to the experiences of the folks with whom they are sharing this "Wisdom." I say this as a straight, white cis-gendered male because it took me a long time to figure this out, and I still make mistakes from time to time. What I've learned is that members of marginalized communities don't expect people to be PERFECT; rather, when we say something that hurts them, they just want to be able to talk about how it made them feel so that we can see their perspective, and maybe learn from it and grow.
You can't be bullied on the internet, just look away. He's a cry baby who almost took the ticket after being pressured and changed his mind after more whiners complained. He should have ignored the angry fans and gw's threats, instead he caved twice. And I bet the offer they made him was less than he currently makes doing whatever he does.
@PenitentJake Did they correct your behavior or are you still a fat smartass?
Sticks and stones always was a sentiment most often expressed by those who weren't on the receiving end of the offence.
When I was a kid, and got beaten up at school on a regular basis for being "the fat kid," my teachers always used to hit me with "Sticks and Stones." And then one day I told one of those teachers that I thought the dress code was fascist because they had a problem with an Iron Maiden back patch. And when that teacher sent me to the office, I said, "Sticks and stones will break your bones, but names aren't supposed to hurt your dress code".
Guess what?
They still sent me to the office, and pointing out the inherent hypocrisy of the statement had the effect of getting me labeled as a smart ass, rather than being evaluated for its merit within the context of civil discourse.
Similarly, when straight, white, cis-gendered men express thoughts like "That which does not kill you" or "Sticks and stones" or any of the other tropes, they themselves often cannot directly relate to the experiences of the folks with whom they are sharing this "Wisdom." I say this as a straight, white cis-gendered male because it took me a long time to figure this out, and I still make mistakes from time to time. What I've learned is that members of marginalized communities don't expect people to be PERFECT; rather, when we say something that hurts them, they just want to be able to talk about how it made them feel so that we can see their perspective, and maybe learn from it and grow.
Eh it's not a gender thing Jake, even a black transsexual can sometimes lack empathy or the understanding of bullying. it's easy to forget how much words can hurt, ESPECIALLY when it's not the words so much as the repeition
@irkjoe: Still a smart ass, but I don't drive, and once Covid hit, I started walking everywhere instead of taking the bus. It's a 28 km round trip to the office and back home.
28 km five days a week doesn't leave a lot of fat on the body brother. Lost 50 pounds in two months. My calves are bullet proof these days.
@Brian- you are correct sir; marginalized people can and do have prejudices of their own; it bothers me, because that's how the oppressor wins- divide and conquer. I try hard to help the marginalized people I work with recognize that other marginalized people are not the enemy.
Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.
People are going to believe whatever they believe. If I can make them think? That's enough.
There is a phenomenon that appears to be escalating now. The best and most widely understood name for it is 'cancel culture' but that term has become inextricably politicized and many people pretend the phenomenon only applies to members of one end of the political spectrum, so, it has lost meaning.
In my estimation, the cycle typically occurs like this:
1) a society is structured such that a vast amount of an individual's time is spent at a job or schooling, and they have very little time to pursue the escapist activities that bring them actual enjoyment
2) many people, faced with this problem, seek to make the escapist activities that bring them actual enjoyment into their job - creating a natural incentive for the companies that control those jobs to turn them into essentially minimum-wage employment regardless of the amount of revenue or demand for the outputs of those jobs (artistic, media, creative etc)
3) All those jobs become impossibly competitive, and the only way in is to massively publicise and create one's personal brand and attach it to one's work, while bizarrely giving up a large degree of control over that work to the corporate owners that control the output
4) People pursue those escapist outlets with an unhealthy intensity due to the misery of their day to day lives outside of those outlets, and if that outlet changes or is taken away, they experience extreme emotions and want to lash out
5) Whose personal brand is right there, linked to their creative output, and who is vulnerable enough to not have layers of multibillion dollar corporation behind them? The person who pursued creative employment and made their source of escapist enjoyment their career. As a bonus, the fact that they were ABLE to do that and presumably get to enjoy their job further infuriates the people whose escapist outlets they are perceived as responsible for changing or taking away.
I don't actually buy that just "the internet" or "phones bad" are what creates this phenomenon. I think you NEED point 1 to drive it home, and that is why countries where the largest percentages of peoples' lives are spent working - Japan, Korea, the USA - are the places where this phenomenon of creative individuals getting absolutely hate-blasted is the strongest.
Sledgehammer wrote: This entire situation seems incredibly self defeating from all sides. Gw shutting down free fan made content to drive people to warhammer + instead is weird. People will pay for your content if it's good. A 6 minute free video isn't going to drive consumers away. If anything it's going to get them to want more.
Getting mad at a small presumably self employed creator for being scared out of his mind by a multinational company that could ruin your life is weird as well.
Some incredible contortions going on here.....
No, he was scared by 'fans' who model themselves as 'anti-GW crusaders', and who apparently felt affronted that he 'sold-out' to their great enemy.
All GW did was offer employment to a creater who was using their property to make money.
I mean it sounds like they told him to take his videos down and didn't communicate with him very well, if at all, as to what their intentions were. It took over a month for them to actually reach out and by then the damage was done by both mal actors within the community and GW not being effectively able to communicate.
It just sounds like a lose lose for everyone.
A month for projects like this is quite quick, considering his position he was lucky to have the chance.
Just a shame, the sad part here is that one dedicated person could entirely orchestrate a harassment campaign like this. So a few people could be a nightmare.
I think star wars is worse, as there is a few popular YouTube channels that will direct a lot of attention towards people for every issue. Mostly directed towards women working for Disney but leave out the men as often they are less viable targets for the harresment.
40k has a lot of fantastic YouTube personalities that really work hard to push away from that. But a few fall into it as well really badly. 40k I don’t think brings in enough value to use that kinda content often.
