H.B.M.C. wrote: When everything comes out separately, you'll see that it really was at a discount.
Not if you never buy GW terrain or rulebooks
Boxed sets may be a discount compared with regular GW prices. But those prices are astronomical to begin with- often even discounts don't bring them down to reality.
Yeah Bolt Action Starter sets are twice the content for half the price. I'm sure I could browse any online store and find every competitor offering better value.
KT shares the same high price tag as Indomitus but contains 22 models.
Goose LeChance wrote: Yeah Bolt Action Starter sets are twice the content for half the price. I'm sure I could browse any online store and find every competitor offering better value.
And again, that really doesn't have anything to do with the statement that the Octatrius box will be a significant discount to when its contents are released separately.
Goose LeChance wrote: KT shares the same high price tag as Indomitus but contains 22 models.
And tons of terrain. Did you miss that, or this you being intentionally disingenuous?
H.B.M.C. wrote: When everything comes out separately, you'll see that it really was at a discount.
Given GW prices, I don't see boxes like this as a discount. It's more like this is what it should cost, and when everything comes out separately that's like a punishment or fine for not buying it as a bundle
It reminds me a bit of shops that consistently have "discounts" on certain items, you know in reality the "discount" price is the real price and the "normal" price is actually the "feth you" price. In Australia we have automotive supplies stores like that, Supercheap Auto, Autobarn, etc, their baseline prices are such a rip off that I hardly consider their sales as a discount.
Well, it's a much better deal than Pariah if you only look at model count, and the terrain and mat is also an upgrade for not that huge a price gap between the two.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When everything comes out separately, you'll see that it really was at a discount.
Given GW prices, I don't see boxes like this as a discount. It's more like this is what it should cost, and when everything comes out separately that's like a punishment or fine for not buying it as a bundle
It reminds me a bit of shops that consistently have "discounts" on certain items, you know in reality the "discount" price is the real price and the "normal" price is actually the "feth you" price. In Australia we have automotive supplies stores like that, Supercheap Auto, Autobarn, etc, their baseline prices are such a rip off that I hardly consider their frequent sales as a discount.
In any case if you don't see the big box as discount and won't mind losing it then you aren't buying individual either and then you aren't on the FOMO target group anyway as you are just going to ignore the product entirely.
If you want the game and don't want to pay individual prices then there's discount to be had and thus FOMO applies as you will lose that if you don't get the big box. At which point scalpers can still make money.
Goose LeChance wrote: Yeah Bolt Action Starter sets are twice the content for half the price. I'm sure I could browse any online store and find every competitor offering better value.
And again, that really doesn't have anything to do with the statement that the Octatrius box will be a significant discount to when its contents are released separately.
Goose LeChance wrote: KT shares the same high price tag as Indomitus but contains 22 models.
And tons of terrain. Did you miss that, or this you being intentionally disingenuous?
No, I'm genuine in my belief that I will save more money by not buying the Kill Team boxset than I would by buying it.
I'll save about 100$ after buying the units separately, possibly more if they don't charge the maximum price for units (or set a new standard)
Calling it "not much of a discount" is a cheeky joke more than anything, but also true in my case. I'll play Nu-Kill Team eventually, without cost.
"Even if you wanted everything in that box anyways and the separate parts are going to cost much more than the box, it's not a discount since you should never buy GW models."
Battlezone boxes with similar amounts of content cost 120€, both orks and DKOK will be at least 30€, possibly up to 40€. Even if you don't give a gak about killteam, you still get a good deal.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When everything comes out separately, you'll see that it really was at a discount.
Given GW prices, I don't see boxes like this as a discount. It's more like this is what it should cost, and when everything comes out separately that's like a punishment or fine for not buying it as a bundle
It reminds me a bit of shops that consistently have "discounts" on certain items, you know in reality the "discount" price is the real price and the "normal" price is actually the "feth you" price. In Australia we have automotive supplies stores like that, Supercheap Auto, Autobarn, etc, their baseline prices are such a rip off that I hardly consider their frequent sales as a discount.
In any case if you don't see the big box as discount and won't mind losing it then you aren't buying individual either and then you aren't on the FOMO target group anyway as you are just going to ignore the product entirely.
If you want the game and don't want to pay individual prices then there's discount to be had and thus FOMO applies as you will lose that if you don't get the big box. At which point scalpers can still make money.
I think for a lot of people (certainly me) I see the discount boxes as the "correct price" boxes rather than a discount in that there's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd buy all that junk at individual prices.
If I missed the Octarius I simply wouldn't have bought into KT, the price of the rulebook and compendium by themselves is absurd and from my understanding they don't even contain the rules for the DKOK and only very simplistic rules for everyone else.
Hell, I probably wouldn't have bought the box at all if it weren't for the DKOK, so in that sense rather than a "discount" it's more of an "upsell" box It's like I'm paying extra over an individual box of DKOK to get a bunch of terrain, Orks and rules that I could totally live without.
I think it's totally fair for someone to laugh at the idea of a box like this being a "discount", people have a sense of value and that varies from person to person, if you feel the price of the models is inflated relative to their worth, it doesn't feel like much of a discount even though it might technically be cheaper than what GW charge for the individual pieces.
"Even if you wanted everything in that box anyways and the separate parts are going to cost much more than the box, it's not a discount since you should never buy GW models."
Who are you talking about?
I want the models, even the Kommandos. I'm going to buy an entire 40k army of plastic Krieg if GW sells them. The terrain and rulebooks can burn in a tire fire for all I care.
I think it's totally fair for someone to laugh at the idea of a box like this being a "discount", people have a sense of value and that varies from person to person, if you feel the price of the models is inflated relative to their worth, it doesn't feel like much of a discount even though it might technically be cheaper than what GW charge for the individual pieces.
Jidmah wrote: "Even if you wanted everything in that box anyways and the separate parts are going to cost much more than the box, it's not a discount since you should never buy GW models."
"it's not a discount since you should never buy GW modelsGW's standard prices are insane."
Even if you don't give a gak about killteam, you still get a good deal.
"Good deal" only if you think GW's standard prices aren't a terrible deal to start with.
There's a group of people, me included, who has enough hobby money to splurge on a GW product whilst also thinking GW products are a rip off.
I think for a lot of people (certainly me) I see the discount boxes as the "correct price" boxes rather than a discount in that there's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd buy all that junk at individual prices.
At which point we are back to FOMO being there as you either buy this NOW or you miss out. So scalpers have room to make money. And back to there being something to be lost(discount) from not buying it NOW when it's still available.
FOMO.
It's dishonest claiming you aren't missing on anything because everything is coming separately later. There's still one thing which is the biggest reason for these boxes. Discount. If you don't get this now while you can you either won't get the contents ever or pay lot higher price.
To me the perceived discount depends on what you really want from the box. If you just want the minis you'll be better off waiting for them to release separately. If you want minis + terrain or minis + rulebook it's still probably worth it, even if you can't be bothered to sell the extras. If you want everything in the box is quite good value (accounting for GW's prices).
I think for a lot of people (certainly me) I see the discount boxes as the "correct price" boxes rather than a discount in that there's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd buy all that junk at individual prices.
At which point we are back to FOMO being there as you either buy this NOW or you miss out. So scalpers have room to make money. And back to there being something to be lost(discount) from not buying it NOW when it's still available.
FOMO.
It's dishonest claiming you aren't missing on anything because everything is coming separately later. There's still one thing which is the biggest reason for these boxes. Discount. If you don't get this now while you can you either won't get the contents ever or pay lot higher price.
Jidmah wrote: "Even if you wanted everything in that box anyways and the separate parts are going to cost much more than the box, it's not a discount since you should never buy GW models."
"it's not a discount since you should never buy GW modelsGW's standard prices are insane."
That's not how it works. I think you are confusing getting a discount with saving money.
If you buy three bottles of coke to get one free, that's a discount. You are just not saving money because you originally weren't going to buy four bottles of coke and end up spending more. That's the effect what you are referring to.
If you buy a bottle of coke and you get 30% off, that's still a discount, even if the store is still making money of that bottle.
First of all, whenever you buy anything 40k related, you are never saving money ever Second, if the box is less moneys than the moneys of the content combined, that's a discount. Sure, I wouldn't be saving any money if I didn't intend to buy the kommandoz, DKOK and the terrain anyways, but I do.
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: There's a group of people, me included, who has enough hobby money to splurge on a GW product whilst also thinking GW products are a rip off.
You seem to be under the impression that "good deal" and "discount" should be connected to "cheap". It's not.
I want those specific kommandoz because of their sculpts and that terrain isn't vastly more expensive than comparable stuff from other companies. There is no way to get either for non-GW prices.
Since GW's pricing policies apply to both the box and the separate pieces, you are just needlessly being negative about GW's prices in an unrelated topic.
Eh, I may think the arguments veer into hyperbole but I feel the price vs value discussion is relevant to the topic at hand. It ties directly into demand & scalping which is what the MTO promise is all about.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Eh, I may think the arguments veer into hyperbole but I feel the price vs value discussion is relevant to the topic at hand. It ties directly into demand & scalping which is what the MTO promise is all about.
Do we really need another ten pages of thread to find out once again that prices of a luxury good are solely decided by how much people are willing to pay?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Eh, I may think the arguments veer into hyperbole but I feel the price vs value discussion is relevant to the topic at hand. It ties directly into demand & scalping which is what the MTO promise is all about.
Do we really need another ten pages of thread to find out once again that prices of a luxury good are solely decided by how much people are willing to pay?
Counterpoint; do we really need any of the discussion that has happened in this thread?
I think for a lot of people (certainly me) I see the discount boxes as the "correct price" boxes rather than a discount in that there's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd buy all that junk at individual prices.
At which point we are back to FOMO being there as you either buy this NOW or you miss out. So scalpers have room to make money. And back to there being something to be lost(discount) from not buying it NOW when it's still available.
I'd say they don't have much room to make money on this one, if a person thinks there's no point buying it individually because it's not worth the individual price GW will ask, then they're also not going to buy stuff for scalper prices either.
If I were a scalper, I'd probably be staying away from this one because people are unlikely to pay big money for the terrain and that's a big part of the price of the box.
It's dishonest claiming you aren't missing on anything because everything is coming separately later. There's still one thing which is the biggest reason for these boxes. Discount. If you don't get this now while you can you either won't get the contents ever or pay lot higher price.
It's all a matter of perspective, if I didn't grab the box now I'd hardly feel like I'm missing out on anything, because I wouldn't buy at the individual prices and I wouldn't be crying if I didn't get it. There's other things I can spend my money on.
The bundle price just brings it down to the point where I'll consider it.
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Jidmah wrote: You seem to be under the impression that "good deal" and "discount" should be connected to "cheap". It's not.
No, it's just a matter of perspective in terms of what you take as a reference price.
You're taking the individual prices as your reference and calling the box a discount. In my thinking the box is roughly the correct price and taking that as my reference, in which case the individual prices are inflated.
you are just needlessly being negative about GW's prices in an unrelated topic.
I don't think I was the one who brought up prices.
"Even if you wanted everything in that box anyways and the separate parts are going to cost much more than the box, it's not a discount since you should never buy GW models."
I'm literally arguing the opposite; that the separate components will cost far more than when combined in the Octarius box and that if you want everything in the box, then getting the box is the best option.
But then again, I'm not a black knight. I'm a dark knight.
Goose LeChance wrote: No, I'm genuine in my belief that I will save more money by not buying the Kill Team boxset than I would by buying it.
That's not the same thing. Of course by not purchasing something vs purchasing something you 'save' money. What an irrelevant point.
Goose LeChance wrote: I'll save about 100$ after buying the units separately, possibly more if they don't charge the maximum price for units (or set a new standard)
So you can purchase the Kriegers, the Kommandos, the rulebook, Octarius book, counters, dice, cards, mats, measurement device/barricade sprue and the terrain separately and save about $100? Who is selling these to you at such prices?
Goose LeChance wrote: I want the models, even the Kommandos. I'm going to buy an entire 40k army of plastic Krieg if GW sells them. The terrain and rulebooks can burn in a tire fire for all I care.
Then you're comparing apples and carburettors! If you don't want a significant portion of the box's contents (which the terrain is at least half), and have no desire to make the effort to sell the extra components, then no gak the box isn't worth it. Duh.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Given GW prices, I don't see boxes like this as a discount. It's more like this is what it should cost, and when everything comes out separately that's like a punishment or fine for not buying it as a bundle
Oh I agree, but that's why I buy these things. It has terrain. It has lots of terrain. Terrain that will cost about 2/3rds to 3/4ths the cost of the whole Octarius box when released separately, so why would I not get the box when I'm getting all the terrain I want plus tons more stuff, for not much more?
And that's before I go and get it for 25% off.
It's the same reason I bought two Dark Uprising boxes the second GW announced the pretty pathetic new Necromunda starter with the Eschers and not-Delaques: You get a ton of terrain in DU, and trying to buy that separately costs way too much. Plus a got a million Enforcers and Khorne guys out of it!
Goose LeChance wrote: I'll save about 100$ after buying the units separately, possibly more if they don't charge the maximum price for units (or set a new standard)
So you can purchase the Kriegers, the Kommandos, the rulebook, Octarius book, counters, dice, cards, mats, measurement device/barricade sprue and the terrain separately and save about $100? Who is selling these to you at such prices?
No, most of that stuff is free to all freedom lovers. Having an established group to play with outside of GWs influence helps.
I feel terrible for new people entering the hobby(tm) and their first pack of dice(tm) and glue(tm) are straight from GW, but I doubt many of them are buying these boxes and It's not our problem. It's GWs.
Goose LeChance wrote: I'll save about 100$ after buying the units separately, possibly more if they don't charge the maximum price for units (or set a new standard)
So you can purchase the Kriegers, the Kommandos, the rulebook, Octarius book, counters, dice, cards, mats, measurement device/barricade sprue and the terrain separately and save about $100? Who is selling these to you at such prices?
No, most of that stuff is free to all freedom lovers. Having an established group to play with outside of GWs influence helps.
I feel terrible for new people entering the hobby(tm) and their first pack of dice(tm) and glue(tm) are straight from GW, but I doubt many of them are buying these boxes and It's not our problem. It's GWs.
Hmmm. That sentence does sound like "freedom lover" = "freeloader". Nothing wrong with a community/club sharing resources of course, but that isn't the topic (or at least where the topic has drifted to).
Goose LeChance wrote: I'll save about 100$ after buying the units separately, possibly more if they don't charge the maximum price for units (or set a new standard)
So you can purchase the Kriegers, the Kommandos, the rulebook, Octarius book, counters, dice, cards, mats, measurement device/barricade sprue and the terrain separately and save about $100? Who is selling these to you at such prices?
No, most of that stuff is free to all freedom lovers. Having an established group to play with outside of GWs influence helps.
I feel terrible for new people entering the hobby(tm) and their first pack of dice(tm) and glue(tm) are straight from GW, but I doubt many of them are buying these boxes and It's not our problem. It's GWs.
Hmmm. That sentence does sound like "freedom lover" = "freeloader". Nothing wrong with a community/club sharing resources of course, but that isn't the topic (or at least where the topic has drifted to).
Everything in Kill Team can be made yourself. You can make your own terrain, your own markers/etc. I'm not sure how that's being a freeloader, you don't even need the models unless you really like the look of them.
The only thing you absolutely need to play the New Kill Team is rules and cards.
I think for a lot of people (certainly me) I see the discount boxes as the "correct price" boxes rather than a discount in that there's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd buy all that junk at individual prices.
If I missed the Octarius I simply wouldn't have bought into KT, the price of the rulebook and compendium by themselves is absurd and from my understanding they don't even contain the rules for the DKOK and only very simplistic rules for everyone else.
Definitely true for me. I need 3 units of Ork Kommandoz, I also want at least 3 units of DKoK, and I want a full tables worth of that terrain. I will never buy them at their individual kit prices (I'm guessing $50-60 for each unit, the terrain is probably another $80-100). The combined discount price on the other hand makes it worthwhile, especially factoring in I can get it 25% off (former employee discount at my local), and that I can sell the extra copies of the rulebook for probably around $35 each for the core rules and $20 for the Octarius booklet (since people seem concerned that they won't be able to get that otherwise). All said and done, assuming I pull an extra $50 for those books, etc. it works out that I'm only probably paying about $20-30 per unit and $40-60 for the terrain. More than a reasonable price for that stuff and much more agreeable than what GW actually wants me to pay.
Everything in Kill Team can be made yourself. You can make your own terrain, your own markers/etc. I'm not sure how that's being a freeloader, you don't even need the models unless you really like the look of them.
The only thing you absolutely need to play the New Kill Team is rules and cards.
You are paying for them though. For one making terrain on your own especially if you are doing it just for one board gets surprisingly expensive to start with. You are also paying in time. And in looks.
All the ugly orange cardboard tokens turned me away from the big box to be honest. Just seems very rushed out the door
I was very excited for an updated GW sci-fi skirmish game with modern rules, but I think patience will win in the end. I'll let the dust settle for a few months and then grab the rulebook.
Until GW is able to put out a coherent skirmish game that can compete with how robust and coherent Mordheim is these days, I don't feel the urge to chase.
Speaking of Octarius, just read on Reddit that the combat gauges have sold out. GW sold their Octarius boxes in under 4 days. No idea how many MTO boxes they will manage to sell until 28th.
The first print run of Octarius was supposedly 27,500 copies, and contained the metal gauge for every box.
tauist wrote: Speaking of Octarius, just read on Reddit that the combat gauges have sold out. GW sold their Octarius boxes in under 4 days. No idea how many MTO boxes they will manage to sell until 28th.
The first print run of Octarius was supposedly 27,500 copies, and contained the metal gauge for every box.
Everything in Kill Team can be made yourself. You can make your own terrain, your own markers/etc. I'm not sure how that's being a freeloader, you don't even need the models unless you really like the look of them.
The only thing you absolutely need to play the New Kill Team is rules and cards.
You are paying for them though. For one making terrain on your own especially if you are doing it just for one board gets surprisingly expensive to start with. You are also paying in time. And in looks.
tauist wrote: Speaking of Octarius, just read on Reddit that the combat gauges have sold out. GW sold their Octarius boxes in under 4 days. No idea how many MTO boxes they will manage to sell until 28th.
The first print run of Octarius was supposedly 27,500 copies, and contained the metal gauge for every box.
wasn't MTO just for weekend?
I think it was, but the preorders do not close until 28th, so who knows how long the MTO offer will remain in place
tauist wrote: Speaking of Octarius, just read on Reddit that the combat gauges have sold out. GW sold their Octarius boxes in under 4 days. No idea how many MTO boxes they will manage to sell until 28th.
The first print run of Octarius was supposedly 27,500 copies, and contained the metal gauge for every box.
wasn't MTO just for weekend?
I think it was, but the preorders do not close until 28th, so who knows how long the MTO offer will remain in place
The extra good news is that we’ve made a pre-order promise – everyone who pre-orders Kill Team: Octarius this weekend will get a copy, so you won’t see the dreaded out-of-stock message. There’s an awful lot of boxes ready to go, of course, but given the global interest in this incredible set, it may not be enough.
GW was consistent in only noting this for the first weekend of the pre-order.
tauist wrote: Speaking of Octarius, just read on Reddit that the combat gauges have sold out. GW sold their Octarius boxes in under 4 days. No idea how many MTO boxes they will manage to sell until 28th.
The first print run of Octarius was supposedly 27,500 copies, and contained the metal gauge for every box.
wasn't MTO just for weekend?
I think it was, but the preorders do not close until 28th, so who knows how long the MTO offer will remain in place
The extra good news is that we’ve made a pre-order promise – everyone who pre-orders Kill Team: Octarius this weekend will get a copy, so you won’t see the dreaded out-of-stock message. There’s an awful lot of boxes ready to go, of course, but given the global interest in this incredible set, it may not be enough.
GW was consistent in only noting this for the first weekend of the pre-order.
Yes, but they probably need to sell some predetermined amount of the MTO boxes before pulling the plug, the print run sizes probably cannot be totally arbitrary. So first they sold the 27,500 print run and now the MTO's need to hit some other number, like 10,000 or something (no idea what sort of print run sizes they need to do)
You can make to order just one box, although the unit price would be huge as stuff like set up cost would be immense.
I think this MTO promise was a gamble by GW. They wanted to create some good will by promising it, as this was clearly getting to be a contentious issue.
It also seems they genuinely did produce loads of boxes, and set a relatively small MTO window (they could easily have done all preorders), I think they set the timeline deliberately so that they were very confident they wouldn't sell out. The gamble comes because they could have sold out and now have committed to a MTO which might not be very profitable. But GW makes enough money they could afford the slight hit if it were to be the case.
In the end they haven't sold out so the whole situation is a win-win for GW.
tauist wrote: Speaking of Octarius, just read on Reddit that the combat gauges have sold out. GW sold their Octarius boxes in under 4 days. No idea how many MTO boxes they will manage to sell until 28th.
The first print run of Octarius was supposedly 27,500 copies, and contained the metal gauge for every box.
wasn't MTO just for weekend?
I think it was, but the preorders do not close until 28th, so who knows how long the MTO offer will remain in place
The extra good news is that we’ve made a pre-order promise – everyone who pre-orders Kill Team: Octarius this weekend will get a copy, so you won’t see the dreaded out-of-stock message. There’s an awful lot of boxes ready to go, of course, but given the global interest in this incredible set, it may not be enough.
GW was consistent in only noting this for the first weekend of the pre-order.
Yes, but they probably need to sell some predetermined amount of the MTO boxes before pulling the plug, the print run sizes probably cannot be totally arbitrary. So first they sold the 27,500 print run and now the MTO's need to hit some other number, like 10,000 or something (no idea what sort of print run sizes they need to do)
They've removed the made to order items from the website, over the weekend there was a link to the regular version and also a MTO version, the latter isn't there anymore, so I think once it's gone now, it's gone.
EDIT: My mistake, the MTO link is still on the US site, but it's gone from the EU and UK ones. But still, given it hasn't sold out of regular copies, my guess is they won't have to do MTO at all and at worst can just shuffle around the existing stock.
I know a few people who canceled their orders and went to order off a 3rd party site for the 15-20% off including myself. So GW likely has some stock left over. I also know of a few stores which still have stock not allocated.
gungo wrote: I know a few people who canceled their orders and went to order off a 3rd party site for the 15-20% off including myself. So GW likely has some stock left over. I also know of a few stores which still have stock not allocated.
That's probably the reason stock was so limited to stores/online retailers. Lure everyone to the official site for the official price.
Unsurprisingly they didn't limit supply of Dominion to retailers.
The place I ordered from sold out in 7m. They then called GW, asked for more, and GW said "Sure!".
GW does all sorts of things to lure people to order directly through them - mostly through usless tat like coins or whatever - but it doesn't appear that they were specifically offering unlimited boxes of Ocatrius... but only through them.
But you're in Australia and AllSeeingSkink says things are operating differently there.
My favourite discount store sold out of KT instantly and didn't get any extra copies. People were saying stock was limited to 16 boxes, did that change?
Goose LeChance wrote: GWs Australian website says the warehouses are closed and they aren't taking orders
And several stockists have said that they are still receiving product from GW, just at a slower rate, due to staff shortages.
I don't think any retail stores are open right now, outside of supermarkets, chemists, local food places, and similar items.
Yes, that's the point.
GW cannot sell Kill Team directly to customers in Australia (according to their own website), so they send whatever amount of copies they currently have to any retailers they can.
This isn't true in Canada or America. GW is still taking orders directly.
Goose LeChance wrote: But you're in Australia and AllSeeingSkink says things are operating differently there.
My favourite discount store sold out of KT instantly and didn't get any extra copies. People were saying stock was limited to 16 boxes, did that change?
Meanwhile they have tons of unsold Dominion.
If you want even more confusion about Australia vs the rest of the world, one of the local discounters was listing stock level and near the start of release they had at least 80 copies (I assume they didn't actually have the physical copies but rather an allotment, but either way, that's what their site was listing when I first checked it).
Goose LeChance wrote: GWs Australian website says the warehouses are closed and they aren't taking orders
And several stockists have said that they are still receiving product from GW, just at a slower rate, due to staff shortages.
I don't think any retail stores are open right now, outside of supermarkets, chemists, local food places, and similar items.
Yes, that's the point.
GW cannot sell Kill Team directly to customers in Australia (according to their own website), so they send whatever amount of copies they currently have to any retailers they can.
This isn't true in Canada or America. GW is still taking orders directly.
Yep, that's my theory. GW's online store and also physical GW stores are not taking orders (even the stores that are still open in areas that aren't locked down). My thought is that has both meant GW is more willing to give a larger allotment than normal to 3rd parties, and also means that people who might normally buy from GW or their local store have been pushed to 3rd parties, causing those 3rd parties to shift more stock.
I dunno what GW's plans are, Sydney (where their warehouse is located) is locked down but cases are still going up, given Australia's zero COVID targets, they could be locked down for months more.
My friend works in a local store and says that they were limited to buying boxes in batches of 16 (billed as 15 boxes + 1 free store copy). But they could buy as many as they wanted within that; 16, 32, 48, whatever.
They only bought 16 because they had exactly 16 orders and only sell small amounts post-launch so 32 wouldn't be profitable.
Looks like the Oz GW store is back up taking orders, though weirdly the only KT item is the MTO version of the boxed set. No dice, no books, etc. I imagine they're just reshuffling things ready for tomorrow though.
I think it was largely in response to GW's IP policy regarding fan animations shuttering a lot of people's work on Youtube.
Though I feel this is largely due to the pricing of the box, and that not everyone wants the terrain or the kill team stuff to gain access to the DKoK or Orks. Boycotts online are pretty hard to manage in a niche hobby like Warhammer since its not like you can enforce or effectively pressure people to not buy stuff unless you doxx people somehow. Not to mention that internet rage has a short shelf life before people get distracted by the next shiny.
It's the internet - there's always one mad group of anti-fans willing to boycott GW for something. Though I'd say the whole fan films thing is overblown and in poor taste when we consider that thus far the only videos fully "lost" are from a creator who was hounded off the whole idea of 40K animations by "fans"
Heck I heard that one of the big "Ripped Warhammer 3D asset" archives got pulled down today most likely by GW so there's a subset of fans going nuts at GW over that.
In the end they don't work. No call for a "boycott" has ever worked against GW.
CMLR wrote: International store: Pre-order still up. Why? Is the boycott actually working?
Very little incentive for scalpers now, plus the lukewarm reception from a large chunk of people who aren't happy it's not "8th/9th edition with one squad of models" anymore.
Boycott was doomed the second Black Templars were revealed.
CMLR wrote: International store: Pre-order still up. Why? Is the boycott actually working?
Very little incentive for scalpers now, plus the lukewarm reception from a large chunk of people who aren't happy it's not "8th/9th edition with one squad of models" anymore.
Boycott was doomed the same Black Templars were revealed.
I think there's a lot of reasons KT might have underperformed.
I reckon a lot of people don't value terrain highly, and especially Ork-specific terrain (other than HBMC of course). If you're not a GW terrain fanatic, then it feels like poor value.
Then you had people going cold on the rules. Beyond the absurdity of the circle, triangle, pentagon stuff, there seemed to be a lot of rules people didn't like.
Then you have the cost of the books / accessories.
Then you had the reviews of the Compendium, which felt very underwhelming and overpriced, but needed to play any team beyond the DKOK and Kommandos.
I think maybe GW shot themselves in the foot a bit with making it as expensive as possible to get into the game, with the only option for the Octarius book being to buy the expensive boxed set, and the only option for getting rules for other teams is the expensive compendium, at some point people just lose interest.
Maybe the boycott did something also, but honestly these last few posts on this thread are the first thing I've heard of any boycott, lol, so I doubt it went too far.
GW can do so much wrong, nothing happens, but doing something that is legit but some groups think they are right, and goes viral
(which happens with a lot of things these days, everything wrong is ok, but do something the vocal minority feeling betrayed and the internet goes bonkers and the real problems get lost)
but the "boycott" lasted just for a week at best
most channels are back to GW content (most now make a video of how 3D printing is GWs biggest enemy) and everything is alright with the preview of Black Templar and the Orc Video
for KT not sellinbg out
well, the rules are the usual GW quality, they took no advantage of the "new" ideas but just make it look different
gameplay is based around the content of the box, and more are announced, so rather waiting until the box with your faction comes out than going with an Index
the models in the box are rather bought as stand alone product because there are not many who want everything
and without a shiny new Orc Codex available to everyone or a new Militarum Codex around, there is no big need for the new models anyway
PS: not forgetting that the market of Skirmish games sees much harder competition than the Mass Battle games like 40k you have to deliver a proper product for such a high price and KT does not look very good compared to the other Skirmish games available
because human would mean you get this one everywhere, yet it is not
even in central/eastern Europe things are already different, and you won't get this internet hyperbole in Asia this way
They said they'd made as much as dominion and were having 2 week pre order. It's not a massive shock to see it up for order on week 2, as dominion was is it?
Vorian wrote: They said they'd made as much as dominion and were having 2 week pre order. It's not a massive shock to see it up for order on week 2, as dominion was is it?
Vorian wrote: They said they'd made as much as dominion and were having 2 week pre order. It's not a massive shock to see it up for order on week 2, as dominion was is it?
But I'm not sure Octarius will be up after this week :(
They didn't say they made the same number as dominion, they made some vague comment about making a lot of them so they wouldn't sell out instantly, similar to how they made a lot of dominion such that it also wouldn't sell out instantly.
Given the MTO promise, I'm guessing the initial positive reception on forums and comments in the twitch stream made them think they underestimated popularity, so put in the MTO promise to make sure it didn't sell out instantly, but then maybe people got cold on it with further announcements, reviews, etc.
CMLR wrote: International store: Pre-order still up. Why? Is the boycott actually working?
Very little incentive for scalpers now, plus the lukewarm reception from a large chunk of people who aren't happy it's not "8th/9th edition with one squad of models" anymore.
Boycott was doomed the same Black Templars were revealed.
I think there's a lot of reasons KT might have underperformed.
I reckon a lot of people don't value terrain highly, and especially Ork-specific terrain (other than HBMC of course). If you're not a GW terrain fanatic, then it feels like poor value.
Then you had people going cold on the rules. Beyond the absurdity of the circle, triangle, pentagon stuff, there seemed to be a lot of rules people didn't like.
Then you have the cost of the books / accessories.
Then you had the reviews of the Compendium, which felt very underwhelming and overpriced, but needed to play any team beyond the DKOK and Kommandos.
I think maybe GW shot themselves in the foot a bit with making it as expensive as possible to get into the game, with the only option for the Octarius book being to buy the expensive boxed set, and the only option for getting rules for other teams is the expensive compendium, at some point people just lose interest.
Maybe the boycott did something also, but honestly these last few posts on this thread are the first thing I've heard of any boycott, lol, so I doubt it went too far.
The week before KT:O went on sale, the Thousand Sons vs. Grey Knights box sold out in < 10 minutes in every territory it was in. Despite featuring two less popular armies, it held substantial value – nearly $350 in MSRP for $170. It was essentially a buy one get one free promotion. If you liked one side of the box, it was equivalent to getting it at the 15% MSRP plus the other side for free!
The KT:O Box has ~$220 worth of plastic, half of which is terrain at $200 MSRP. This isn't some great mystery. Sure, you can inflate the value of the box by pointing to the soon to be obsolete rule book or overpriced measuring gauges, but it's just a mediocre value relative to almost every other limited box they've released post 7th edition.
I pre-ordered one and hope the game gets uptake, but don't see the response as anything other than a rational economic response to an underwhelming value proposition.
CMLR wrote: International store: Pre-order still up. Why? Is the boycott actually working?
Very little incentive for scalpers now, plus the lukewarm reception from a large chunk of people who aren't happy it's not "8th/9th edition with one squad of models" anymore.
Boycott was doomed the same Black Templars were revealed.
I think there's a lot of reasons KT might have underperformed.
I reckon a lot of people don't value terrain highly, and especially Ork-specific terrain (other than HBMC of course). If you're not a GW terrain fanatic, then it feels like poor value.
Then you had people going cold on the rules. Beyond the absurdity of the circle, triangle, pentagon stuff, there seemed to be a lot of rules people didn't like.
Then you have the cost of the books / accessories.
Then you had the reviews of the Compendium, which felt very underwhelming and overpriced, but needed to play any team beyond the DKOK and Kommandos.
I think maybe GW shot themselves in the foot a bit with making it as expensive as possible to get into the game, with the only option for the Octarius book being to buy the expensive boxed set, and the only option for getting rules for other teams is the expensive compendium, at some point people just lose interest.
Maybe the boycott did something also, but honestly these last few posts on this thread are the first thing I've heard of any boycott, lol, so I doubt it went too far.
The week before KT:O went on sale, the Thousand Sons vs. Grey Knights box sold out in < 10 minutes in every territory it was in. Despite featuring two less popular armies, it held substantial value – nearly $350 in MSRP for $170. It was essentially a buy one get one free promotion. If you liked one side of the box, it was equivalent to getting it at the 15% MSRP plus the other side for free!
The KT:O Box has ~$220 worth of plastic, half of which is terrain at $200 MSRP. This isn't some great mystery. Sure, you can inflate the value of the box by pointing to the soon to be obsolete rule book or overpriced measuring gauges, but it's just a mediocre value relative to almost every other limited box they've released post 7th edition.
I pre-ordered one and hope the game gets uptake, but don't see the response as anything other than a rational economic response to an underwhelming value proposition.
I'm sure they made far less of the Thousand Sons vs. Grey Knights box than they made boxes of Kill Team.
But yeah, I agree the high price tag, small number of troops and large amount of terrain probably didn't help them move product. I know some people like GW terrain (HBMC...) but it's just not something most people place a high value on.
Yeah, I bought one as well, but a version of me that wasn't single with a full time job probably wouldn't even consider a box this expensive where the main item of value was simply terrain.
But I doubt that the baked-in 'discount' was so small ($220 box that you pay $200 for). The total contents would be far more than that.
If we ignore the rules and rules related accessories I'd be curious to see how much you'd pay for it separately, is the terrain maybe roughly equivalent to the Charadon boxed set? So about $150USD of terrain? Then add on maybe $45 each for the DKOK and Kommandos? So $240 all up?
But in the end, most people aren't going to be so taken by the terrain as to see it as good value.
The most alienating aspect of the box is the fact that they didn’t include the compendium in the rulebook and so that tacked on yet another fee. Most people who play KT do so because they have a smattering of different factions, and so GW doing everything they possibly can to eek every extra cent out of consumers is just a tactic that people are now tired of.
... then we wouldn't be making a valid comparison. Doubly so given we know exactly how much GW are charging for dice, for the stupid measurement things and the barricades/counters, the cards, and the rulebook.
The rulebook, card set, "essentials" set, and half a dice set ('cause the box has 10 D6's, not 20 like a dice set) comes to US$120.50.
And you think the Kommandos will be US$45 per box? I can see them easily being the same price as Intercessors at US$60. The Kriegers have an extra sprue, much like the Cadians, so we'll call them US$45. Then Charadon US$150 on top of that. And we don't even know how much the Octarius book would cost, so we'll call that a gimme and say it's $0.
We're looking at US$350-US$375 worth of stuff for US$199. Doesn't matter if some people don't "value" the terrain, as the terrain has value. A monetary one. And not a small one at that.
This box is far, far, far from a US$220 box with a twenty buck "discount".
we are looking at 2 boxes of models that go for 40-50, terrain worth 100 and rules
so basically you get the rules and gaming aids for free, but without the compendium
so everyone who does not want Orks or Krieg and does not start it as "new" game, you are better of with the rulebook in addition to the compendium you need anyway than with the box
... then we wouldn't be making a valid comparison. Doubly so given we know exactly how much GW are charging for dice, for the stupid measurement things and the barricades/counters, and the rulebook.
I purposely left it out because I don't think your average gamer is going to consider that worth any monetary value in this context (weighing up the value of a box).
Starter boxes, IMO, need to be a good value on multiple fronts if they're going to gain any real traction. If you only want one faction and the rules, they need to be good value. If you only want the models and not the rules, they need to be good value. If you only want the rules and the models are just a bonus, they need to be good value.
If for the Kill Team box to be good value you need to add up every single piece in the box, the target audience is going to be limited to people who genuinely want every single thing in the box, which I think would be very few (not none, just not many).
I was interested until I saw previews of the compendium and went cold on it. No way am I going to sink $200+ into a game that is only going to give factions usable rules in $200+ box sets once per quarter.
... then we wouldn't be making a valid comparison. Doubly so given we know exactly how much GW are charging for dice, for the stupid measurement things and the barricades/counters, the cards, and the rulebook.
The rulebook, card set, "essentials" set, and half a dice set ('cause the box has 10 D6's, not 20 like a dice set) comes to US$120.50.
And you think the Kommandos will be US$45 per box? I can see them easily being the same price as Intercessors at US$60. The Kriegers have an extra sprue, much like the Cadians, so we'll call them US$45. Then Charadon US$150 on top of that. And we don't even know how much the Octarius book would cost, so we'll call that a gimme and say it's $0.
We're looking at US$350-US$375 worth of stuff for US$199. Doesn't matter if some people don't "value" the terrain, as the terrain has value. A monetary one. And not a small one at that.
This box is far, far, far from a US$220 box with a twenty buck "discount".
It's a good value. Especially considering that it's widely available with the 15% mail order discount.
I expect each of the teams will retail for $60, maybe $65. It contains one more frame of terrain than the Command Expansion Bundle ($90) and two fewer frames, and one fewer board, than the Charadon Battlezone ($150). Let's split the difference and value the terrain at $120. That's $240-$250 of comparable value in plastic.
If someone wants to impute $17 of value for the orange dice, or $35 for whippy sticks and cardboard pushout tokens, or $50 for a softback rulebook that will be certainly be superseded by some commander expansion/FAQ'd to death by the time the next war zone debuts in October, by all means, knock yourself out. Even if you believe that these toss-ins and widely-panned rules push the box to a $350 value, the Hexfire box which launched the week prior to KT had roughly that some amount in kits for $30 less.
Again, I pre-ordered KT the day it was announced at my FLGS. My point was simply that the reason for slow sales likely had more to do with the price to value ratio rather than a sign that the game was intrinsically unpopular or that "the boycott" was bearing fruit.
Gregor Samsa wrote: The most alienating aspect of the box is the fact that they didn’t include the compendium in the rulebook and so that tacked on yet another fee. Most people who play KT do so because they have a smattering of different factions, and so GW doing everything they possibly can to eek every extra cent out of consumers is just a tactic that people are now tired of.
Agreed, it's very disappointing the compendium isn't part of the starter. Kill Team is what got me to start collecting several new factions, seeing additional price gouging is just poor form.
redux wrote: I was interested until I saw previews of the compendium and went cold on it. No way am I going to sink $200+ into a game that is only going to give factions usable rules in $200+ box sets once per quarter.
flaherty wrote: It's a good value. Especially considering that it's widely available with the 15% mail order discount.
That could, of course, be said about everything GW makes minus the webstore exclusives which they charge more to retailers to buy and thus don't have much of a discount.
I expect each of the teams will retail for $60, maybe $65. It contains one more frame of terrain than the Command Expansion Bundle ($90) and two fewer frames, and one fewer board, than the Charadon Battlezone ($150). Let's split the difference and value the terrain at $120. That's $240-$250 of comparable value in plastic.
I sure hope the teams aren't $60-65 each, that's equal to or more expensive than Primaris marines for Guardsmen and Orks.
I'm hoping the DKOK are $45, same as the Cadians with their new upgrade sprue. Much more than that and I'd rather just buy the FW version of the DKOK since they still look nicer.
The Kommandos, I dunno, GW will probably throw a dart at a board. I'm not sure if there's any recent equivalent to use as a comparison, but GW love to charge absurd prices for Orks, I think they secretly hate Ork players when you look at stuff like $55 for 5 Flash Gitz and $50 for Mek Gunz.
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H.B.M.C. wrote: The rulebook, card set, "essentials" set, and half a dice set ('cause the box has 10 D6's, not 20 like a dice set) comes to US$120.50.
Yeah I don't think too many people actually place that value on it, and I think precious few people are actually going to front up $120 to buy all that.
Also the dice are just plain, they don't have any special symbols on the 6 or 1, they're just orange, but plain, I dunno if you're considering that in your pricing.
This box is far, far, far from a US$220 box with a twenty buck "discount".
I think that's how your average gamer will see it, $220 of plastic, most of which is terrain that again your average gamer doesn't care as much about as the actual models they can use in their army, with a bunch of near-worthless accessories.
By comparison, look at the 40k Command starter set, $165, something I reckon people would actually see as good value. You get roughly $125 of Necrons if bought separately, $125 of Primaris if bought separately and $90 of terrain. That's $340 of plastic, for $165. Even if you only really care about one of the forces, you aren't going to feel completely ripped off buying it. Or even if you place no value on the terrain, it's still $250 of models separately for $165 bundled.
The range rulers, dice and rulebook might be necessary to play, but are people REALLY including that in consumer value calculations? I doubt it.
And remember, we're not talking about what the cost of items is if all bought separately, we're talking about why maybe it isn't super appealing to your average gamer.
That said, as I type this I noticed it's finally sold out in the USA, still available in the UK/Europe though.
I think at around $150 would have been a decent pricing for it. At $199 it is just really high priced for a skirmish game.
I am interested to know if the future box sets they are planning quarterly will include the rulebook and will also be $199, as I think they are going to have some issues at that price point.
angel of death 007 wrote: I think at around $150 would have been a decent pricing for it. At $199 it is just really high priced for a skirmish game.
I am interested to know if the future box sets they are planning quarterly will include the rulebook and will also be $199, as I think they are going to have some issues at that price point.
I don't.
Infinity's 2P starters are $143.99 MSRP...for the same amount of models(with less options built in), card scenery rather than plastic, and a "40 page booklet" that details the 2 factions in the box's units and has some basic missions for the game.
Malifaux's "Core boxes" for a specific Master are anywhere from $50-$65USD.
Star Wars Legion's starters clock in at $99.95.
There's more I could probably go into, but these boxes if they continue on this path? It's probably going to do well, if only because people know that they can part these kinds of boxes out easier than other games.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah I don't think too many people actually place that value on it...
It doesn't matter what value people "place on it". That's the actual value of those items, in dollars, as per GW. We don't have to speculate on their value; we know exactly what it is.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: ... and I think precious few people are actually going to front up $120 to buy all that.
And when Octarius is gone and people want to get into Kill Team? They're going to need to pay that (maybe not for the dice). More actually, given the Compendium.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think that's how your average gamer will see it, $220 of plastic, most of which is terrain that again your average gamer doesn't care as much about as the actual models they can use in their army, with a bunch of near-worthless accessories.
And again, it doesn't matter that the "average gamer" doesn't care about terrain. The terrain has an actual cost. Just like the miniatures in there have a cost.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The range rulers, dice and rulebook might be necessary to play, but are people REALLY including that in consumer value calculations? I doubt it.
Then they're not doing it right. Pure and simple. Those items are not free. Neither is the terrain. Saying that the Octarius box is a low value item because it only contains 10 Orks, 10 Guardsmen, a Grot and a Squig is just dishonest. It contains a boatload more than that.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: And remember, we're not talking about what the cost of items is if all bought separately, we're talking about why maybe it isn't super appealing to your average gamer.
Why would such a box be unappealing to the average gamer*? If they want to get into KT, they see this box, or the stream of items available separately, and can see that just buying the essential items would set them back a pretty penny, and for not much more they get two full forces and the entire surface to play upon? That's value.
lmao, if someone disagrees with the 'value' of the box set, then they don't buy it. Simple as that.
As it is, we know at least 27000 boxes sold (the number of exclusive metal gauges as the preorder bonus) and likely quite a few more, so at least 27000 people disagree with the "don't place value on it" idea.
What we have here is an issue of "projecting". Just because YOU don't want to pay a certain price doesn't mean an "average gamer" wouldn't. First of all, there's no "average gamer", there are people that buy the product because they want it and people that don't buy the product because they don't want it. Pushing your opinion onto a labeled group only makes people that may identify as an "average gamer" and happen to disagree with you not like you and the stuff you say
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah I don't think too many people actually place that value on it...
It doesn't matter what value people "place on it". That's the actual value of those items, in dollars, as per GW. We don't have to speculate on their value; we know exactly what it is.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: ... and I think precious few people are actually going to front up $120 to buy all that.
And when Octarius is gone and people want to get into Kill Team? They're going to need to pay that (maybe not for the dice). More actually, given the Compendium.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think that's how your average gamer will see it, $220 of plastic, most of which is terrain that again your average gamer doesn't care as much about as the actual models they can use in their army, with a bunch of near-worthless accessories.
And again, it doesn't matter that the "average gamer" doesn't care about terrain. The terrain has an actual cost. Just like the miniatures in there have a cost.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The range rulers, dice and rulebook might be necessary to play, but are people REALLY including that in consumer value calculations? I doubt it.
Then they're not doing it right. Pure and simple. Those items are not free. Neither is the terrain. Saying that the Octarius box is a low value item because it only contains 10 Orks, 10 Guardsmen, a Grot and a Squig is just dishonest. It contains a boatload more than that.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: And remember, we're not talking about what the cost of items is if all bought separately, we're talking about why maybe it isn't super appealing to your average gamer.
Why would such a box be unappealing to the average gamer*? If they want to get into KT, they see this box, or the stream of items available separately, and can see that just buying the essential items would set them back a pretty penny, and for not much more they get two full forces and the entire surface to play upon? That's value.
*Whatever that means...
The debate isn't "does this stuff have monetary value as determined by GW?" it's "Why did this box stick around for seven days when every previous 40K box sold out in under seven minutes?" Maybe it's increased stock, perhaps MTO scared off scalpers, or it might be that more folks value $120 in extra models over $120 in game accessories. Another 14 pages in this thread should help us get to bottom
The debate isn't "does this stuff have monetary value as determined by GW?" it's "Why did this box stick around for seven days when every previous 40K box sold out in under seven minutes?" Maybe it's increased stock, perhaps MTO scared off scalpers, or it might be that more folks value $120 in extra models over $120 in game accessories. Another 14 pages in this thread should help us get to bottom
No, I'm pretty sure this thread has hit bottom already.
... then we wouldn't be making a valid comparison. Doubly so given we know exactly how much GW are charging for dice, for the stupid measurement things and the barricades/counters, and the rulebook.
I purposely left it out because I don't think your average gamer is going to consider that worth any monetary value in this context (weighing up the value of a box).
I just paid $120 CAD for everything but the kill teams and terrain. No true Scotsman…?!?
I bought the box because I want the kill teams and the terrain and consider the killteam stuff mostly worthless.
Which essentially proves drbored's point that there is no average gamer.
And honestly, if it weren't for finally having some cool looking and functional ork ruins (or some other company had made something similar before), I wouldn't have given the box the time of my day.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah I don't think too many people actually place that value on it...
It doesn't matter what value people "place on it". That's the actual value of those items, in dollars, as per GW. We don't have to speculate on their value; we know exactly what it is.
The value consumers place on it is literally the only thing that matters. If you try and charge $300 for a pizza, then put it on discount for $250, you aren’t going to sell much because it’s the value the consumer places on t that’s important.
Obviously we can just add up all the junk and say “oh wow, what a great deal”, but if consumers see $220 of plastic for $200, I’m pretty sure most people will see that as less of a deal than $340 of plastic for $165 dollars.
People share rule books, they pirate rule books, they already have a pile of dice, they are willing to use their existing rulers instead of some special circle square pentagon gauges, they build their own terrain or buy from other suppliers instead of needing GW branded terrain, more people collect Imperials than Orks so have less use for Ork terrain. These are the reasons I don’t think people place as much value on that sort of stuff over the raw models in the box.
Which essentially proves drbored's point that there is no average gamer.
There is a statistical theory that there is no single person that represents he average, as when you have enough variables to define the average, the number of people who fall into all categories drops to zero.****
When I talk about the “average gamer”, I’m talking about some theoretical average which is what a company based decisions around, not a specific person who is the average.
**** the idea is if you take all heights of people, you can find an average and a number of people who fit within a percentile range, if you take the average chest diameter, you can find an average and overlay that with the average height data and find people who fit within an average percentile of both, which will be smaller than the first group who were only average height. As you start adding more variables, say finger length, crotch height, neck length, nose width, eye spacing... each of those has an average and forms a more complete picture of an “average” person, but the number of people who get categorised as “average” starts to drop to zero.
In wargaming terms relevant to Kill Team, it would be like saying how many people are interested in Orks? Well on average more people are interested in imperial armies so won’t see value in Ork terrain. How many people are interested in terrain? Well, some, but certainly not everyone. How many people in the target market don’t already have a pile of 20+ dice and also don’t know you can get dice cheaply elsewhere? I’d say not many, so to everyone else those dice are worthless. How many people genuinely value the new range finding gauges? I’m sure many, but not everyone. How many people actually think the rules are way overpriced? I’m sure more than a few. How many people actually are buying this for Kill Team? Some, but not all (by contrast how many people bought HH because they care about the HH, versus how many simply wanted a big ol’ pile of space marines?). That limits the potential customer base, eliminating many of those who care not about KT but just want some cool models.
With all those questions you paint a picture of the average gamer. I’m not saying one gamer exists that necessarily meets that average, I’m saying that average is what you base business decisions on. You don’t make an equal number of small shirts as you do medium, because there’s more mediums out there. GW don’t make 3mm 40k not because there’s no one who wants 3mm 40k, but because that’s not what the average wants.
EDIT: And to close off this absurdly long post on an absurd topic, I appreciate maybe my estimation of the average gamer is wrong, but to me that is the whole question, not what numerical value you get by adding up the individual components, dividing by the cost of the box and taking the reciprocal. That is a trivial mathematical question, and hardly worthy of discussion.
... then we wouldn't be making a valid comparison. Doubly so given we know exactly how much GW are charging for dice, for the stupid measurement things and the barricades/counters, and the rulebook.
I purposely left it out because I don't think your average gamer is going to consider that worth any monetary value in this context (weighing up the value of a box).
I just paid $120 CAD for everything but the kill teams and terrain. No true Scotsman…?!?
We're talking about real dollars here, not monopoly money
But did you really buy all the combat gauges, dice, cards, counters, etc also? If so, good for you, I'd just be surprised if that's what most people would do.
I imagine there's a significant number who bought the compendium + core rulebook, I'd guess the number would drop off significantly once we start adding the other gubbinz.
And if you did buy all that, you don't feel a bit short changed that you also didn't get the Octarius book?
It's a Kill Team starter set. It's good value if you want to start playing Kill Team. It's not good value if you want some extra Orks or Guard for your armies.
Dominion and Indomitus are the wrong comparison - those boxes were made for existing players who wanted to "upgrade" to the new edition and get a very nice deal on minis.
This box, with the dice, range rulers, terrain, etc. is designed for people who want to start playing from scratch. It's the equivalent of the Command/Extremis sets. But it's still a limited quantity thing because it's not one of the core games.
Which essentially proves drbored's point that there is no average gamer.
There is a statistical theory that there is no single person that represents he average, as when you have enough variables to define the average, the number of people who fall into all categories drops to zero.****
When I talk about the “average gamer”, I’m talking about some theoretical average which is what a company based decisions around, not a specific person who is the average.
**** the idea is if you take all heights of people, you can find an average and a number of people who fit within a percentile range, if you take the average chest diameter, you can find an average and overlay that with the average height data and find people who fit within an average percentile of both, which will be smaller than the first group who were only average height. As you start adding more variables, say finger length, crotch height, neck length, nose width, eye spacing... each of those has an average and forms a more complete picture of an “average” person, but the number of people who get categorised as “average” starts to drop to zero.
In wargaming terms relevant to Kill Team, it would be like saying how many people are interested in Orks? Well on average more people are interested in imperial armies so won’t see value in Ork terrain. How many people are interested in terrain? Well, some, but certainly not everyone. How many people in the target market don’t already have a pile of 20+ dice and also don’t know you can get dice cheaply elsewhere? I’d say not many, so to everyone else those dice are worthless. How many people genuinely value the new range finding gauges? I’m sure many, but not everyone. How many people actually think the rules are way overpriced? I’m sure more than a few. How many people actually are buying this for Kill Team? Some, but not all (by contrast how many people bought HH because they care about the HH, versus how many simply wanted a big ol’ pile of space marines?). That limits the potential customer base, eliminating many of those who care not about KT but just want some cool models.
With all those questions you paint a picture of the average gamer. I’m not saying one gamer exists that necessarily meets that average, I’m saying that average is what you base business decisions on. You don’t make an equal number of small shirts as you do medium, because there’s more mediums out there. GW don’t make 3mm 40k not because there’s no one who wants 3mm 40k, but because that’s not what the average wants.
EDIT: And to close off this absurdly long post on an absurd topic, I appreciate maybe my estimation of the average gamer is wrong, but to me that is the whole question, not what numerical value you get by adding up the individual components, dividing by the cost of the box and taking the reciprocal. That is a trivial mathematical question, and hardly worthy of discussion.
I appreciate the detailed explanation. My point was more that there are multiple, different personas who want to buy this box for multiple reasons. This is what you do when designing software, assuming one "average customer" usually ends up making no one happy.
There is the diehard ork fan like me, who wants to buy ork terrain and kommandoz, while knowing that you can easily find someone to buy the DKOK from you for a fair price. Terrain+Kommandoz+Guardmen Squad with upgrade sprue are more expensive than the box.
Then you have the collector who just want everything.
You have the kill team fan, who want the box and the tools, this is still a great deal for them even if they want neither DKOK or kommandoz, because they can easily sell them off or split the box.
Even for people who just want the terrain, it's still a great deal.
Same is true for people who need any combination of 1 killteam plus KT rules.
People who don't want them are those who just want the bare essentials to play KT with the stuff they already have, just want one of the teams and nothing else or simply don't want to spend that much money at once.
And of course, there is a huge percentage of people who play neither orks nor AM nor KT nor buy terrain.
So I agree that this box probably has a much lower percentage of the fanbase interested than most of the recent 40k boxes.
I'm just happy that non-marine players get to have a starter box for once.
Then I also happen to be an Ork player, and the terrain and Kommandos still most likely makes it worth it for me even if I never get around to actually playing Kill Team. Krieg is also sufficiently cool to make me interested in painting at least a few. I don't think I would have felt the same way if there were space marines instead.
But I agree it sucks for Eldar, Tau and Tyranid players who have never gotten a starter box (we Orks got one with AoBR, which I think was very successful).
However, it sounds from rumors that they may get these in the future, if this talk about "season" boxes is true.
More variety is always great, and I'm not cynical enough to believe that GW always optimizes every single release to maximise volume (then they would never release anything except new space marines).
Also, you can buy the rule book standalone anyway, now if it was locked into the box I would understand the complaints but now it isn't, so I don't really get what is the problem? It mostly sounds like people complaining that something that they wouldn't buy anyway is too expensive?
