I played my first few games on Saturday with the new rules using my 9th edition Emperor's Children army. I chose the Renegade Raiders detachment as it fit well from my 9th edition army.
Really enjoyed it but wanted a bit more utility out of my Terminators. I ran 2x5 and, luckily, all the models I built/painted was still WYSIWYG. They operated pretty well due to the Assault keyword.
After reviewing your thoughts on running 10, it is definitely happening. That is how I ran them in 9th. Looks like I can do it again in 10 with no real issues. I'd missed the Sorcerer rules. It seems to fit the Renegade Raiders detachment perfectly.
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour* (Slaanesh) - I run him solo. I used to have a winged Daemons Prince in this spot, but I think the points are too much for that. The DP can also struggle against armour. So I give this guy a Chainfist, a Combi-bolter and look to Ingress him into the enemy DZ and threaten backfield tanks and objectives. His shooting and melee can cause battle shock and I can reroll his charge, or an armour save, or go-to-ground for free (Lord ability). He actually pairs well with the Terminator brick because, in order to deal with him efficiently, a lot of the same weapon systems have to be leveraged against him and are less effective against him; thus are not shot into the brick. He also can't really be ignored.
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (Nurgle) - Great unit. Goes with the Terminators. His own shooting is decent and contributes to the nightmare Terminator Overwatch. He can use Hex on your turn and then benefit, both, in the following Shooting phase and the Overwatch phase and in both your and the enemies Fight phases. Its such a good ability. Sometimes, I like to advance the unit, just to be in a better position to use it, for the following Overwatch and Fight phases (I did this a lot against the Tau and Aeldari). The Familiar is just icing on the cake: I used to it to survive an Yncarne's Precision, in one game.
Master of Executions (Slaanesh) - Goes with a Legionnaire unit in the Rhino. Paired with the reroll wounds, he can blend almost anything. Use Grenades on a unit, benefit from both reroll hits and wounds and rinse and repeat. Excellent unit.
Obliterators (Tzeentch)(x2) - A bit of a dud, but I like how CSM have multiple units that can do their thing (Oblits, Warp Talons and Nurgle Pactbound) and then can't really be interacted with, in key turns (2 and 3). With Tzeentch they can crack armour, Warprift and be hidden for a turn, then pop out and shoot and charge something on an objective. Pair very well with a Helbrute, where their lack of shooting reliability is somewhat counteracted and they get better target utility.
Helbrute (Nurgle) - I rely on the Helbrute to do several things (sometimes simultaneously). 1) make the shooting and melee of the Terminator unit much better, 2) increase the efficiency of the shooting units (Predators, Havocs, Venomcrawler and Oblits) and 3) boost the melee potential of the AC, Terminators, Legionnaires, itself and Warp Talons where they start to feasibly threaten armored targets, as well as their usual fare. Armed with a Fist, Lascannon and a Flamer. Can be kept alive with the Nurgle strat and then get better position. If something else needs it, then just hide the Helbrute behind a wall. Also, very cheap now.
Chaos Terminators (Nurgle)(x10) - Excellent unit. I use its Overwatch and counter charge potential to protect the scoring units and to dominate the midfield objectives as a reactive threat, which may seem counterintuitive, but is actually its true power in my opinion. Armed with Combi-bolters and Reaper Autocannons and paired with the Helbrute and a strategic use of Hex, this combo has the best overall target utility: its dangerous against 2+, high toughness, elite infantry, chaff, everything really. Obviously very good in melee and shooting. Them being Nurgle means the opponent has to get close, for fear of you popping the strat, which makes them then vulnerable to being charged and specifically, the unit's own Overwatch. It also means the other units that want to score or charge the enemy have a better chance.
Legionnaires (Slaanesh)(x5) - Probably one of the best units in the game. Go with the MoE in a Rhino. Reaper Chaincannon and Heavy Melee weapons. While they are in the Rhino, their shooting is a palpable threat to cheap scoring, as well as the Rhino's own weapons. These have replaced Chosen for me. I always keep a command point to let them advance and charge and act as a delivery mechanism for the MoE.
Legionnaires (Slaanesh)(x5) - Ditto. These will sit in the Rhino until they get their own shot at a unit on an objective.
Chaos Rhino (Slaanesh) - Boost the mobility of and protect the Legionnaires. Its own weapons are nothing to sniff at: Havoc Launchers, Combi-bolters etc. It can go off and score or do actions, when its job is done.
Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x8) - I like these much more with the changes. To me they are cheaper, more efficient Berserkers that can Scout (!). The potential for them to surge at the wrong time is so high: either and/or tagging a unit that hasn't shot, tagging a unit so they can't be shot, or getting onto an objective, makes them so useful. Paired with Terminators to protect them with Overwatch and increase the chance of a meaningful surge move onto an objective, or into a unit that shot them. I would consider changing the Mark to Undivided, Slaanesh or Khorne, as I actually want the opponent to be able to shoot them and having more melee threat can benefit them.
Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10) - Still great scoring unit that makes objectives sticky and are dirt cheap.
Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3) - With the points drop they are highly competitive. Amazing shooting with plasma and Nurgle in Pactbound. I was sad they lost the redeploy, but now Warp Talons can do this (and more). A cheap, fast, excellent scoring unit, capable of bullying other weaker scoring units.
Venomcrawler (Nurgle) - Very cheap, fast and great utility. Paired with Helbrute becomes a serious shooting and melee threat.
Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5) - As others have already said, a unit that can win games. Putting them on the table Turn 1, means that cheap scoring units will avoid the objectives for fear of giving them an easy kill and going back in reserve. I can see the ability being changed to once per battle, to make it more like the Obliterators' Warprift. While they are obviously strong on their own terms, they also give CSM a unit that can threaten primary, which they really need.
Havocs (Nurgle)(x5) - I give these Lascannons. Their ignore to hit penalties makes them useful against armies that can leverage modifiers. An alternative to Predators, which I prefer, but can be hidden more easily in a Ruin and then jump out. Pair with Helbrute.
Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle) - Again cheap. I like the speed of the unit, hide it and then use the mobility to get angles. Some people prefer the Autocannons, but I have enough anti-infantry already in the list. Pair with the Helbrute.
Forgefiend (Undivided) - Cheaper and still has the ability to delete elite infantry. I like to reserve it, so I can bring on and get the best angles.
Allies
Nurglings (x3) - 40 points for guaranteed objectives. Great.
Final observation, the list really needs command points. I always want to Rapid Ingress (Terminator Lord, Warp Talons) and Overwatch (Terminators) and there is a queue for the Slaanesh advance and charge strat (Terminator Lord, Warp Talons and Legionnaires). So, I may find myself discarding Secondaries more than I would like to.
Thanks for the rundown. I'm running a different detachment but is interesting to see how the same unit may provide different utility.
I'll need to get a few games in using the Sorcerer with Terminators. Hex looks good on paper but getting within 12" and LOS in my shooting phase has me curious if they will also be in range to charge, which is where I'd also want them. Hex and enemy unit on an Objective (Renegade Raiders) will put their close combat weapons at AP4.
Advance and Charge (+1 to roll and getting a reroll) with the brick of Terminators is what I'm wanting out of them; contest midboard.
That looks like an interesting list, but I am not going to play pact bound for a long time as I want to use the other detachments as pact bound was essentially the index which I have played to death. My first list will be as follows:
Veteran's of the Long War
So the internet is not super keen on this detachment, but I think it could be as good as the Pact Bound or the Renegade Raiders, and if not as good, pretty darn close. The Focus of Hated (FoH) ability pair so well with the dark pact to allow you to fish for 6's against the target unit. I think CSM are going to get more out of this then normal SM, and quite frankly, a lot of the snow flake chapters have been doing well, relying on Oath to put down the most dangerous enemy unit. All of the strats are very usable in my opinion, with the 2CP one to pick a new FoH being probably the least stand out due to it being expensive, and needing a character to be close to the new target. But -1 ap is great and a battle tactic. The advance/fall back and shoot his helpful, but the [Devastating Wounds] part of this I think is really good, ignore cover is always useful, especially with the Sorcerer increasing AP with his ability. Reactive moves are ALWAYS good. Finally the fight first strat has a lot of potential, usually you can see when a unit is gearing up for a charge, so if you pick it as the FoH you get can get the fight first, and really disrupt the enemy's game plan. I think there is a lot to work with using this detachment and I can't wait to play it.
Units
10 man possessed with master of possession (with Eager for Vengeance) - So even with the nerf I still think Possessed are pretty good. Yes they are not as tank-y without the 6+++ but they are cheaper which allowed me to add some other things to the list. The big change here is the new enhancement. Having fall back and charge natively on these guys will be super helpful as in many games I charge, kill whatever, then they get counter charged. They are not great against heavy armor high T units, like monsters or vehicles, so being able to fall back from say a dreadnough or Carnifex and then charge something that they can kill I think will be money. I mean chosen are definitely better for this role, but I just got new Possessed and only played with them once, so they will be in most lists lol.
2 x 5 man warptalons - They do their thing and harass the flanks and use the new ability to zip away. They will also have full re-roll hits and wounds against the FoH target which could allow them to really hit things hard. I am just so bummed that Lord with JP can't join them, that would have been a killer unit.
2 x Vindicators - for killing big stuff or large squads. Again the FoH I think for these will be really good.
2 x obliterators - deep strike in and hit the big stuff or large squads. I still think they are good even with the nerf.
5 x legionary squad - This squad will be my hold the back line squad. Armed with plasma they should be pretty good at fending off any deepstrike distraction units.
5 x legionary squad w/ Chaos Lord (with Warmaster's gift)- So I am really looking forward to using this. The lord dropping [Devastating Wounds] on a 5+ with re-roll wounds against units on objectives (due to legionaries) seems really good. Especially against the FoH target where I can fish for [Sustained Hits] to really amp this up. Then pop his super saiyan mode for D3 and I think he can take down a lot of units in the game himself.
Rhino - Obviously just a transport for the Chaos Lord's squad to get them in battle quickly.
2 x venomcrawlers - I just like these guys, they are pretty cheap for what they do and throw out a bunch of shots. With FoH re-rolls they should be able to put some damage into the FoH.
5 man terminators lead by a Sorcerer - This unit will deepstrike in and distract a flank or the backfield. They are a good candidate for the [Devastating Wounds] strat, and with the Sorcerer can re-roll the charge from deepstrike making it more reliable.
5 man raptor squad - These guys are my secondary monkeys and distraction unit. I could probably find something else, but these guys are cheap, so unless it is more legionaries, I don't know what I can replace them.
After this I am going to go to try out some different builds for Renegade Raiders. I am really looking forward to using terminators and Obliterators in the RR list, as the assault rule allowing the advance and shoot really mitigates their slow movement, so you can comfortably start them on the board and get that first round of shooting in.
5 Rubrics with Flamers
5 Rubrics with Flamers
Nurglings
So my thoughts are get Abbaddon and Chosen in the LR. The two Chaos Lord and their Legionaries in the rhino.
The rubrics will benefit well from the detachment rule (they get the HA keyword so should benefit from it) and Dark Pacts don't really do much for them anyway but getting to re-roll to wound, with asault flamers at potentially -3 ap when something is on an objective.... couldn't resist it. I think if not them, then i'd likely try out two units of three bikes but we'll see how they perform!
I am also trying the land raider. I am still not sold on it and in a different world, would potentially swap it out for another rhino and some terminators, possessed or obliterators.
Abaddon is still a bit spenny and his place in the list isn't guaranteed yet but the punch and buffs he brings are very useful.
5 Rubrics with Flamers
5 Rubrics with Flamers
Nurglings
So my thoughts are get Abbaddon and Chosen in the LR. The two Chaos Lord and their Legionaries in the rhino.
The rubrics will benefit well from the detachment rule (they get the HA keyword so should benefit from it) and Dark Pacts don't really do much for them anyway but getting to re-roll to wound, with asault flamers at potentially -3 ap when something is on an objective.... couldn't resist it. I think if not them, then i'd likely try out two units of three bikes but we'll see how they perform!
I am also trying the land raider. I am still not sold on it and in a different world, would potentially swap it out for another rhino and some terminators, possessed or obliterators.
Abaddon is still a bit spenny and his place in the list isn't guaranteed yet but the punch and buffs he brings are very useful.
I like it. Yea I think Rubrics with flamers will be a staple in most Renegade lists. The advance and shoot makes them so fast and dangerous getting into position not just to shoot your turn, but in a place to let them overwatch the next.
Also, quick pet peeve, why are the data sheets not in alphabetical order in the codex? I mean even they broke it down to characters, battle line, other (like the app) but they still should have put them in alphabetical order in those categories as now it feels a bit scatter gun
**++ Army Roster (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [2,000pts] ++**
**+ Configuration +**
**Battle Size:** 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit)
**Detachment Choice:** Soulforged Warpack
**Show/Hide Options:** Chaos Knights are visible, Khorne Daemons are visible, Legends are visible, Nurgle Daemons are visible, Slaanesh Daemons are visible, Titans are visible, Tzeentch Daemons are visible, Unaligned Forces are visible, Unaligned Fortifications are visible
You Tempting Addendum your Shooting Castle while the warpsmith gives the Lord of Skulls 6+++ and He Rolls trough the building in the middle with Unstoppable Rampage for 1 cp and then Shot and Charge with Battleshock for 1 cp kill till he gets killed. Hoping he is a worthy distraction, that they try to Focus him down, which is mostly the wrong way, because of sunken cost fallacy, because of 6+++. Rhinos are His meat shields that Block everything coming at him and then you make them demons for the lulz.
I've played a few more games with the Pactbound list.
I've made changes. Namely, I had to get rid of the Venomcrawler as I was over 2K by 100 points .
I also changed the Marks.
Terminators are now Tzeentch. With the Helbrute, their shooting output is the same. While the ability to deny shooting is useful, I've found that I tend to hide the Terminators anyway Turn 1 against armies that can threaten them and have them jump out with the rest of the army, for one big push. Nurgle is better for positioning and protecting more vulnerable units, like vehicles or Cultists, which want to stay back. The Tzeentch mark helps them with survivability and also effectively gives them 4" extra movement, with the reroll charge they can actually get into the enemy DZ early game. When the opponent knows this, it also makes them less likely to want to shoot them. Paired with the AC, they can create problems: the enemy has to pick up the AC in one go, or risk them tagging stuff. In order to pick them up, larger weapons have to be diverted from the Terminators. No-one really wants to waste shots on the AC. The Terminators Overwatch can, similarly, protect the AC and itself. When the Terminator Lord comes down, Oblits etc., target saturation becomes an issue. My mate plays WE and I saw him using surge moves expertly and to similar effect, but that is an army that doesn't shoot well, doesn't have untargetable units, I would argue is a bit flimsy when it needs to make its pushes and also pays heavily in points. I make the AC unit Slaanesh, to increase the damage potential and mobility of the unit.
There are some games where you might want to deploy the Terminators on the line, to threaten Overwatch against cheap objective scorers, I've found myself doing this against Aeldari a lot. A neat trick with is to take the Tzeentch relic, pact on Overwatch on Turn 1 and then (33% of the time) get a CP back for another strat. Most (if not all) CP generating abilities happen in your command phase so this can be useful.
Samii wrote: The Tzeentch mark helps them with survivability and also effectively gives them 4" extra movement, with the reroll charge they can actually get into the enemy DZ early game. When the opponent knows this, it also makes them less likely to want to shoot them.
Just to clarify: when you resurrect a model it adds movement to the unit, so opponent has to think about this before shooting.
Also, I wanted to do a writeup on the Elixir Terminator Lord because its a unit that doesn't seem strong, but has in fact had a massive impact on the games I've played.
1) If you are playing Take and Hold and are going second, he can potentially battle-shock two units (melee and shooting) at the top of Turn 5 and swing primary for you.
2) As secondaries are scored end of turn, he can also score/deny for you in your turn, through the same battle-shock mechanic (Extend, Secure NML, Storm, Tempting Target, Cleanse, Capture Enemy Outpost (!)). I've done this a few times.
3) An enemy won't want to stay in combat with him on their turn, for risk of him denying their own secondaries, you can rely on them either falling back from him in their turn or in their assault phase trying to kill him before he swings, which is actually pretty useful if you've got multiple things in combat, or sitting on an objective.
4) He is a small infantry model that you can Ingress, meaning he can always be close to objectives.
He has very low damage potential, but is potentially more disruptive than a DP in the same spot.
I like Tzeentch on terminators in the pact bound. My last couple of lists for Slaves to Darkness used a unit like that and the [Lethal Hits] on 5+ make massed small arms fire pretty effective except for 2+ saves (RIP ranged cultists). The Sorcerer can throw out the -1 ap though which makes them good against basically everything, and the ability to bring back a terminator is pretty clutch, as most of the time opponents can't really kill a bunch of them at a time. Also with Oblits being only 2 model units, there is no reason to run them Tzeentch, so the terminators won't be competing for that strat.
I haven't gotten to play yet due to my schedule, but I can't wait to use this codex
xeen wrote: I like Tzeentch on terminators in the pact bound. My last couple of lists for Slaves to Darkness used a unit like that and the [Lethal Hits] on 5+ make massed small arms fire pretty effective except for 2+ saves (RIP ranged cultists). The Sorcerer can throw out the -1 ap though which makes them good against basically everything, and the ability to bring back a terminator is pretty clutch, as most of the time opponents can't really kill a bunch of them at a time. Also with Oblits being only 2 model units, there is no reason to run them Tzeentch, so the terminators won't be competing for that strat.
I haven't gotten to play yet due to my schedule, but I can't wait to use this codex
1. Don't forget plunging fire: half the ruins I play with (and most 40K terrain setups) has a second floor with windows.
2. There is more value in resurrecting an Oblit in a two man unit, than a Terminator in a bigger unit: it also can give the Oblits more reach (remember the extra move potential), which they need.
xeen wrote: I like Tzeentch on terminators in the pact bound. My last couple of lists for Slaves to Darkness used a unit like that and the [Lethal Hits] on 5+ make massed small arms fire pretty effective except for 2+ saves (RIP ranged cultists). The Sorcerer can throw out the -1 ap though which makes them good against basically everything, and the ability to bring back a terminator is pretty clutch, as most of the time opponents can't really kill a bunch of them at a time. Also with Oblits being only 2 model units, there is no reason to run them Tzeentch, so the terminators won't be competing for that strat.
I haven't gotten to play yet due to my schedule, but I can't wait to use this codex
1. Don't forget plunging fire: half the ruins I play with (and most 40K terrain setups) has a second floor with windows.
2. There is more value in resurrecting an Oblit in a two man unit, than a Terminator in a bigger unit: it also can give the Oblits more reach (remember the extra move potential), which they need.
Best,
Samii.
Yea I always forget about the plunging fire rule!
No what I mean is while resurrecting one oblit is better than one terminator, being limited to 2 oblits means that if you want to have that ability, you are losing nurgle (which [Sustained Hits] is of more value to oblits than [Lethal Hits]) on the hope that if the opponent kills one oblit, they don't kill the other one thus preventing the resurrecting of an oblit, which is my experience is usually what happens (i.e. they kill both). So there is more value to me with terminators using the resurrection frankly because they will likely be able to actually use it.
5 Terminators in Renegade Raiders detachment.
What weapon options would you advocate?
1. Chainfist + combi bolter
2. Power Fist + combi bolter
3. Power Fist + combi bolter
4. Power Fist + combi bolter
5. Accursed Weapon + Heavy Flamer
Chainfist seems obligatory in case when fighting a vehicle (can re-roll 4+ hits with Dark Pact). Power Fists for enemy elite infantry. Heavy Flamer over Reaper Cannon to overwatch any chaff units bloking moves/charges.
Xyxel wrote: 5 Terminators in Renegade Raiders detachment.
What weapon options would you advocate?
1. Chainfist + combi bolter
2. Power Fist + combi bolter
3. Power Fist + combi bolter
4. Power Fist + combi bolter
5. Accursed Weapon + Heavy Flamer
Chainfist seems obligatory in case when fighting a vehicle (can re-roll 4+ hits with Dark Pact). Power Fists for enemy elite infantry. Heavy Flamer over Reaper Cannon to overwatch any chaff units bloking moves/charges.
The combi-weapons are probably the better choice, with advance and shoot you can get them into rapid fire range pretty reliably mid-game. However, there is something to be said for the combi-bolters in raiders, as the -1 ap will really help them clear out hoard type units off objectives (-2 if you bring a sorcerer). I think it depends on what else is in your list. For an all comers list you want some hoard clearance, but probably mostly anti-elite stuff as you are likely to face those armies more in the current meta I believe. So if you have like chosen, or oblits or other things that you feel could deal with like 100 nid bugs, or ork boys if you end up facing that then combi-weapons might be better, but your squad seems geared to clearing light infantry, and if that is their role, then this looks good.
Powerfists are good, but if the units primary role is to attack back field or light infantry, then the accursed weapons can be better just letting you throw out a bunch of attacks. I don't think you can go wrong either way, but fists seem to be the more popular option when you actually see terminators in lists.
Also do you plan on starting them on the board? I think that is one of the big advantages in Raiders, not having to rely on DS to get your terminators places with the advance and shoot.
Im a Renegade Raiders detachment, I ran a squad of 10; 6 Powerfists, 4 Accursed Weapon and all Combi Bolters. In theory, I thought the Sorcerer would give me 40 shots with AP2. But, if you roll a 1 for Death Hex.....
To be honest, it could be slightly tweaked for a bit more efficiency but requires more work to build and paint....that will be on my back burner.
However, Renegade Raiders and the Terminators is a pretty solid unit to put on the table for midboard control. Definitely will go in my future lists.
xeen wrote: I like Tzeentch on terminators in the pact bound. My last couple of lists for Slaves to Darkness used a unit like that and the [Lethal Hits] on 5+ make massed small arms fire pretty effective except for 2+ saves (RIP ranged cultists). The Sorcerer can throw out the -1 ap though which makes them good against basically everything, and the ability to bring back a terminator is pretty clutch, as most of the time opponents can't really kill a bunch of them at a time. Also with Oblits being only 2 model units, there is no reason to run them Tzeentch, so the terminators won't be competing for that strat.
I haven't gotten to play yet due to my schedule, but I can't wait to use this codex
1. Don't forget plunging fire: half the ruins I play with (and most 40K terrain setups) has a second floor with windows.
2. There is more value in resurrecting an Oblit in a two man unit, than a Terminator in a bigger unit: it also can give the Oblits more reach (remember the extra move potential), which they need.
Best,
Samii.
Yea I always forget about the plunging fire rule!
No what I mean is while resurrecting one oblit is better than one terminator, being limited to 2 oblits means that if you want to have that ability, you are losing nurgle (which [Sustained Hits] is of more value to oblits than [Lethal Hits]) on the hope that if the opponent kills one oblit, they don't kill the other one thus preventing the resurrecting of an oblit, which is my experience is usually what happens (i.e. they kill both). So there is more value to me with terminators using the resurrection frankly because they will likely be able to actually use it.
Yes, in practice I would be using it on the Terminators most, but I have to disagree on the following point: I have had come up many times, were after they Warp Rift then (in the next turn) move and shoot/charge something, the opponent can't dedicate shooting to kill them in favor of other things, namely Terminators. If they do, those shots don't go into Terminators (which are more valuable) and the enemy has to over commit, for fear of killing one wounding the other and me resurrecting onto an Objective, or something, and getting close the the value of the unit back, in points. They have huge bases too, remember.
They are a clunky unit, can't be interacted with for a turn and then when do appear are not very efficient to deal with. Yes, they can be ignored on account of their slow movement and lack of shooting reliability, but in an army that presents a lot of difficult no interaction, or low-yield interaction choices (Warp Talons, Nurgle Pactbound, Terminators that can make their points back in Overwatch etc.) I found that they can help CSM reach a sort of 'critical mass' of poor interaction choices, in key turns.
Tyel wrote: I'm not sure anyone would ever run it - but in terms of the Cult Detachment I think:
1*5 Dark Commune
3*16 Accursed Cultists
6*20 Cultists
6*10 Traitor Guard
3*10 Fellgor
Is 2k points, and nets you 263 models and 302 wounds.
The obvious strategy is to just drown the Primary objectives in bodies, and you are making just about any weapon profile better than a boltgun a waste of points. (Admittedly, actually deploying this many models might prove an issue - but that's what reserves are for...)
Lists like this have done well in the past.
In 6th edition, a guy at my FLGS ran a list with Typhus, 120 Plague Zombies and 6 Heldrakes. Opponents - even Tau and Eldar lists - never had enough guns to shoot up the Plague Zombies. Heldrakes were OP in that edition and would zoom around to destroy anything that posed a threat.
Each game was all about positioning. The Zombies marched in rows across the board, conga lined to the nearest objectives and cover while getting buffs from Typhus. Destroying one row just meant you now faced the fresh one marching behind it. Opponents never had enough turns to get through enough of the highly resilient Zombies, each game was a desperate offensive against massed fearless troops who were very slow to leave the table.
Tables are smaller now, guns are killier and the rules for LOS / cover are different. But I'm sure there's a way to make that all work to your advantage.
Be aware of the frustration lists like these can cause. 30+ minute movement phases make no friends and the first time I saw a table-flipping ragequit was against this list. It truly is the most passive aggressive 40k playstyle.
I played my second game with the Terminator Sorcerer leading 10 Terminators (Renegade Raiders and 6" Scout Enhancement).
A few things.
- My opponent got first turn and the Scout move allowed me to move the Terminators out of range from D Cannons (as opposed to moving closer to my opponent's army).
- Second time in a few I rolled a 1 for Death Hex and put 3 wounds on the Sorcrerer. I'm starting to feel a bit jaded.
-My opponent actually would not put the Avatar midboard just out of fear of this unit.
-I maxed Primary which helped me win the game.
Still need more games to play but I am liking the detachment. However, I am finding I'd like 10 Raptors with a Jump Pack Lord to fit into the list.
I played a game against GK and had a blast. It was a five DK list.
Turn 1 he has to put the DK on midboard objectives, trying to hide them as much as possible: all my stuff is hidden. The Grandmaster with Sigil was positioned aggressively.
So, on my turn the mobility of my units get some great angles (Predator, FF, Havocs and dudes in Rhino, Bikes etc.). I drop three, yes threeDK on the first turn. Havocs got one on their own, Predator, Bikes and Rhino Legionnaires drop another and the FF finishes off the third. I was able to push my screens up (Nurglings, Bike, Rhino, AC, Cultists) to mitigate Teleport Assault and a Draigobomb and to screen out the Grandmasters. I Ingress the Lord in the back, killing a Techmarine and he has to commit a GM to him: they do nothing to each other.
At this points its basically GG: I still have a Terminator brick, Obliterators and Warp Talons in reserve. The last GM could Halo, but then I can Deep Strike in to get him and bypass Mists (if he tries that) and any unit (specifically Draigobomb) landing on objectives will be taken out by FF.
10 Legionaires (chainswords for combat) in Rhino. All-comers, Renegade Raiders detahment.
Best two special weapons to shoot from the Rhino hatch (Dark Pacts by Rhino) and after dissembarking (Dark Pacts by unit) ?
2x Lascannon for sweet S12 so enemy heavies have to consider this unit a threat?
Havocs are already in the list. Hidden behind cover (advance and shoot in Renegade Raiders).
Legionaires to fight for objectives (dat sweet wound re-roll : )
Havocs in Soulforged Daemon Rhino sounds doable : ) Also havocs in Pactbound Nurgle Rhino (if not expensive investment).
Eh... one of the predator is probably better than rhino + havocs.
There's built-in flexibility with rhino + havocs, just not sure if it's worth the overall points.
Although, now that I think about it:
3x Predator (annihilator?), 3x rhino + 3x (2-lascannon & 2-chaincannon Havocs) is 975pts.
Some blend of AT, horde control and bodies to do action stuff.
Now to fill out the rest of the 1025pt army...
oooooo!! me likey!!!
keep a Helbrute near them for the double Pact dip (6")
Contract for the +1 wound
and the warpsmith with the enhancement ability to re-roll hits!(3")
even if (when) the rhinos self immolate,
you have an undamaged squad of Havocs!
Its been a while since my last write up, after the SW match. This was on account of the game changes, which required adjustments.
Here's the new list:
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour* (Slaanesh)
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour^ (Tzeentch)
Obliterators (Tzeentch)(x2)
Helbrute (Nurgle)
Chaos Terminators (Tzeentch)(x10)
Noise Marines (x5)
Noise Marines (x5)
Chaos Rhino (Slaanesh)
Accursed Cultists (Slaanesh)(x8)
Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)
Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)
Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5)
Havocs (Nurgle)(x5)
Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle)
Forgefiend (Undivided)
Allies
Nurglings (x3)
* Intoxicating Elixir
^ Eye of Tzeentch
The main changes were to drop the MoE in order to make up the points and then to swap Legionnaires for Noise Marines. Without the MoE, I think they are a better choice as the shooting is better and the melee is decent enough, so they become more generalist, rather than the heat seeking missile of the Legionnaire + MoE combo. With the changes to Batteline, I do lose out here a bit, but I still have the Cultists and Nurglings.
The Game
The match was versus an unconventional SW list. Gladius, with Hellblasters x10 and a Fire Discipline Lieutenant; in a Repulsor; Gladiator Lancer; Redemptor x2; Techmarines x3; Intercessors x5; Bladeguard x6; Scouts x5 and Thunderwolf Cavalry x6 led by WGBL No wolves, on account of OC 0.
For deployment we try to hide as much as possible,
I get the first turn.
I'm able to hide everything, but the footprint of the Lancer and the Redemptors give me potential LOS to them, if I move out. I've deployed everything except the Obliterators and the Lord in Terminator Armour. Nurglings are infiltrated into a ruin, to block Scouts from the ruin and give the AC a chance to Scout.
The Terminators advance into the base of the Nurgling ruin, blocking LOS to the Redemptors and Lancer, but giving a chance to the Hellblasters to shoot them if they are played early and disembark (which I want). The Terminators also have view of the center objective, which is in the open. I Scout and advance the AC onto the center objective. I only put enough of them onto it that the SW will have to play the assault doctrine, if they want to get BG and Intercessors on it (the plan), but will thus not be able to shoot the AC for fear of them surging into the Intercessors. Bikes advance onto the far left objective, with Cultists (having stickied the home objective). I don't want to put anything on the far right objective, as the Thunderwolves would be in a position to sling shot there, but the Noise Marines in Rhino and Warp Talons face opposite them behind a ruin jutting out of my DZ. The SW positioned the TWC on the right to block LOS to the FF.
I shoot the Lancer with a FF, Havocs, Predator and the Noise Marines in Rhino and manage to take it out, but have exposed these then to the Redemptors. No charges from me.
SW Turn. The Hellblasters jump out to shoot the Terminators (which are the Oath unit). The assault doctrine is active to get the BG and the Intercessors on the center objective. Because Hellblasters are in the Repulsor, they can't be targeted with the change doctrine strat, so their shooting will be a bit less good against the Terminators. They drop four and a half, including some shots from the Repulsor. I had to give them -1 to hit. I was then expecting the Redemptors to pick up the Havocs and Predator, but they don't manage it, killing three Havocs and dropping some wounds from the Predator. I was used to them being able to do this (in old Ironstorm).
The TWC move onto the far right objective, using a ruin to block LOS to my FF. BG and Intercessors make their charge onto the center objective but I was able to OW the BG with my Terminators in the movement phase, dropping the unit to three and got a command point back (from Eye). As a result, the BG kill the little dudes from the AC unit and then the big dudes nearly take out the Intercessors.
Scouts move around to counter the bikes, but do nothing and don't want to charge, as they would be killed. So I still control that one.
CSM Turn (the go Turn). I res a Terminator with the Tzeentch strat, bringing me up to 7. I use the 4" of free movement to put me in a position to charge the remaining BG without moving them. This is crucial. The Terminators are still the Oath unit, so OW from the Hellblasters would hurt them. The Noise Marines and Warp Talons on the right flank jump out with the plan of shooting the TWC and charging them. If the TWC blood surge, it makes the charge shorter. Also, the Lord Deep Strikes on the right flank, in a position to threaten the Hellblasters and Repulsor.
On the left, my FF, Havocs, Predator and the Helbrute (who in the last turn was hidden behind a wall) move out to kill Redemptors. I also bring the Obliterators down in the Nurgling ruin, to Warp Rift. My shooting phase sees one Redemptor taken out and the other dropped to half wounds. The Terminators charge the BG. The Lord charges the Hellblasters and they OW him, but not being the Oath target means they whiff and a couple explode. The Lord picks up a few more and the unit is Battleshocked. Terminators kill the BG and Intercessors and consolidate centrally.
The combined shooting and charges from the Noise Marines and Warp Talons, takes out the TWC, leaving the WGBL. I was able to mob the objective and we are basically stuck in from from this point. In retrospect, it might have been better to have gone Tactical (in the next Turn) and have fallen back, but without the +1 dmg it made no difference and Devastator was needed for the Hellblasters.
SW Turn 2. The Redemptor is healed by a Techmarine and they move out to challenge the center objective. Hellblasters fall back and I use the OW from the Terminators to pick the remaining ones up, leaving the Lieutenant (one Terminator is killed by their dying shots). Redemptor, Repulsor and Techmarines shoot the Terminators. I pop the -1 to hit strat again, and I only lose three with a reroll. The squad is three plus Sorcerer. Now, the Redemptor needs to kill the Terminators, so it charges, Redemptor makes it in and kills two more. I knock a few more wounds off it.
CSM Turn 3. AC unit joins the fight with the Redemptor. I res again. Bikes and Obliterators engage the Techmarines and kill them easily with shooting. Cultists sticky the left objective. All remaining shooting goes into the Repulsor, which is then charged and finished off by the Lord.
SW Turn 4. Redemptor dies. All that's left is the Lieutenant. GG.
The Analysis
Terminators won that game. For a few reasons:
1. Speed (for a TEQ unit). The Terminators were able to advance and reroll thanks to the Sorcerer (a 1 to a 5) getting me into the footprint of a BLOS ruin. Later they got free movement from the Tzeentch strat, meaning that they were able to completely avoid the OW of the Hellblasters, and reroll a charge. If I hadn't been thinking about the Hellblasters I could have pushed them even further with this and if you res a few times, it can make a big difference to their reach. Basically, I could have spent the game hopping and charging from ruin to ruin with them. In this case I wanted to expose them, to bait the Hellblasters early on.
2. OW. A couple of times, the Terminator OW get me out of spots: if they hadn't killed the three BG, they would probably have killed the AC unit and finishing off the Hellblasters meant I could set the Lord on the Repulsor.
3. Shooting. I played it out where I Deep Strike the Terminators instead of starting on the board. If I had dropped them on the top floor of the Nurgling ruin, I could have then Hexed a Redemptor and shot, doing enough damage to take it out (rerolls fishing for 5's for the autowound with Tzeentch) and then OW into the other when it tried to engage them, dropping it to half wounds (on account of not being able to AoC on OW). That's an insane conversion rate and if I had been able to get a Helbrute near them it would go up again (maybe dropping both).
If I had done this, I would probably have lost presence in the center though and by putting them in the DZ, they were acting as a deterrent to the TWC, along with the FF.
4. Melee. Naturally, like all CSM units, melee is strong here. They didn't shine in this battle's melee phase, because by the time they get there they had been battered by all primary pressure heavy lifting they were doing. But they took out BG, Intercessors, finished off a Redemptor etc. While I didn't have a chance to do it here, being able to fight on death would also have pushed them had, for example, they been charged by the TWC, or if the Techmarines and Redemptors had charged in all at once.
5. Resilience. All TEQ units can sometimes psychologically seem a bit fragile when they are expensive, but here using the mobility factor I was able to choose when and where they were shot, and made sure they were protected through strat use and positioning. Their ability to absorb punishment allowed me to challenge the center. Being able to res and deny OW with the Hellblasters, was also a key play here. To my knowledge there are no other TEQ units that can do that. If the Lord had failed the charge, then in all likelihood the Hellblasters would have gone into Devastator in their turn and (probably) would have picked the unit up, but then the FF would have picked up the Hellblasters and the same thing would have happened (just a turn later).
In summary, I am very surprised to see that Terminator bricks are not being played at Tournaments. Sure, they require skill to play and can feel a bit 'all-in.'
I thinks its best summarized in their comparison to the Warp Talon meta (at least before the nerfs). I would see people using thirty and just think: how is that army scoring any primary points at all, when most of it is off the board, or not especially resilient (the stuff left behind)?
With Terminators you have the best of both: elusiveness, damage output, reactivity and the ability to take a shot or two on the chin, when its needed. Obviously, a lot of those plays require skill, because you can't afford to throw them away and they also can't be everywhere at once, and there are some things (a FF) which can potentially pick up the unit if its being misplayed, but when played right, they can have a disproportionate board presence and (from what I've seen) massively swing the primary pressure, in your favor.
Best,
Samii.
P.S. The list is down by twenty points, does anyone have any suggestions what to change?
I played a couple of the new detachments against the SW list with roughly the same list, to test them out. I had to make a few changes in some cases, as certain units don't work very well in the other detachments.
For reference here is the 'definitive' Pactbound list:
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour* (Slaanesh)
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (Tzeentch)
Obliterators (Nurgle)(x2)
Helbrute (Nurgle)
Chaos Terminators (Tzeentch)(x10)
Legionnaires (Slaanesh)(x5)
Legionnaires (Slaanesh)(x5)
Chaos Rhino (Slaanesh)
Accursed Cultists (Slaanesh)(x8)
Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)
Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)
Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5)
Havocs (Nurgle)(x5)
Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle)
Forgefiend (Undivided)
Allies
Nurglings (x6)
* Intoxicating Elixir
I dropped the Eye and replaced the Noise Marines with Legionnaires, and added some more Nurglings to get to 2K.
The Games
First tried out Veterans: I replaced the extra Nurglings and the Terminator Lord with a Traitor Guard squad led by an Enforcer (the Lord doesn't work as well in this detachment IMO). So, interestingly, this was the list that did the best.
The OW from the Terminators, combined with the free OW from the Traitor Enforcer (remember rerolls from Focus) was like having to deal with a second shooting phase. The combo was just deleting units (note however: they were within range of a Helbrute too). First, the Terminators and Guard killed a Hellblaster unit with OW, I was then able to move the Terminators behind BLOS, using the reactive move strat to protect them from a Redemptor. There was no real counter to this, but it required thinking a few moves ahead (i.e. pulling models from one side of the unit when the Hellblasters shot on death, moving out one side, leaving one behind a wall etc etc).
I think a lot of people are sleeping on the OW potential of CSM in this configuration. Ordinarily, Traitor Guard are a weak unit and the Enforcer compounds the cost. But when combined with Pacts, Hex, rerolls and a Helbrute I think there is a lot of play there with the already impressive OW firepower of the Terminators.
I then tried this with the Chaos Cult detachment. Here, I kept the Guard and dropped the Terminator Lord and Obliterators (again not good here), but added more AC and a Dark Commune. So, with the shooting strats (for the Guard) I was able to roll up with the Guard and Terminators and knock units off objectives, then relying on OW to stem the counter attack. I used the strat to shield the Terminators with Cultists from Hellblasters, leaving them unscathed. The difference maker here was the AC blob, which Turn 1 charged Repulsor, TWC and trapped them in the DZ. Very, very strong unit.
I think the key with the detachments is not too lean to heavily into the things that makes them unique, but rather enhance or complement the 'core' CSM abilities. The Cult for example, still needs shooting and HA elements (Legionnaires, Havocs, Terminators, Predator etc.) but having an AC unit that can block the enemy in the DZ Turn1, or a Traitor Guard unit that can kill four TEQ in a shooting phase, whilst also being able to protect the HA units through the targeting strat, enhances and complements CSM natural strengths.
The Other Detachments
I didn't have a chance to try the other detachments but had some thoughts. In the Renegade Raiders detachment, I would probably keep the Lord and leave the Guard out. With the Dread Reaver upgrade he stops being a distraction unit and can be a threat on his own. The other thing and this is something I noticed with Veterans too, is that the ability to advance and shoot helps CSM units, not just in respect of distance, but also getting to the second floor of a ruin with Terminators and Havocs. Ordinarily, these units can't pop up and shoot from the second floor of a ruin on the same turn, because they only move 5." You need at least a move of 6 to do this, but with assault, you can. This gives those units plunging fire.
RE Deceptors, I think the ability to infiltrate Cultists, the improve charge strat and potential to get a 6" consolidate on the Terminator brick, could be potentially game winning. Likewise for the Talons, the strat to keep a unit locked in is very good.
I haven't been able to play with the new book yet, and it is really frustrating. However, my first list is the VotlW. Your thoughts on it are interesting as I said prior to the codex drop that I think VotlW is a sleeper detachment. The re-roll hits with the pacts is really good, and all of the strats bar maybe one, are not just usable, but are actually good. As soon as I can get a game in I will do a write up. Thanks for your input Samii
I haven't been able to play with the new book yet, and it is really frustrating. However, my first list is the VotlW. Your thoughts on it are interesting as I said prior to the codex drop that I think VotlW is a sleeper detachment. The re-roll hits with the pacts is really good, and all of the strats bar maybe one, are not just usable, but are actually good. As soon as I can get a game in I will do a write up. Thanks for your input Samii
I just realised the missing piece of the puzzle with the CSM nightmare OW build, though it had been staring me in the face: Cypher.
With Cypher that's three units that can shoot for free basically on the opponents turn. If they want to take out Cypher, they would need to get within 12" of the other stuff and the OW protects him. If you place him out front of the Terminators and the Traitor Guard, but behind the AC, you force the opponent to come towards you. Combine that with rerolls from Veterans, Hex and a Helbrute and its GG.
So finally got a game in after like a 4 month gap. I played the Soul Forge Pack detachment with Vashtorr as my warlord. My list is below with a break down. My opponent played Necrons. He brought hyper-crypt legion. I ended up losing the game by ten points. It sucks because I scored 0, yes 0 points for secondaries as my draws were awful in turn 1, 2, and 3 and by turn 4 most of my units were dead. If I had gotten the drop I got turn 4 and 5 turn 1 and 2 I would have won. I don't mind for friendly games, but I would never use the random draw for a competitive game just due to the mess I had in that game. So here is the break down
Dark Pacts - So this is my first game not using the index with the Pact Bound rules for the 5+ crits. Personally, without that detachment ability I think the dark pacts are a bit meh. I took a lot of damage from failing dark pacts this game (more on that in a bit) and I don't think it was really worth the extra few [Sustained Hits] or [Lethal Hits] I got. I am not going to use Pact Bound for a long while since I played so many games with what is essentially that detachment, but the loss of the 5+ crits was noticeable.
Soul Forge Pact- So when this detachment dropped I thought I could potentially be way over the top. As you can see from my units I did not have enough daemon engines to fully exploit it, and if I did I would probably only have brought the cultists and maybe one or two smaller squads for objective napping and action monkey and the rest would have been more daemon engines. That being said, the detachment is probably still not that great. I did a ton of damage to my own units, the -1 to the dark pact test really really hurts. The +1 to wound is nice for ranged attacks but the +2 attacks is not really that good. I did not really get to use the strats all that much, I used the healing one which actually sucks as you have to roll a 5+ to heal (that should really be a 3+ since it is capped at 6 anyway). I used the one that if the fall back is desperate escape, but he did not fail any test. That one is very swing-y. I turned my hellbrute and vindicator into daemon engines, but really neither got a whole lot out of that. I did not get to use the move though terrain one, and while that looks good on paper, I think in reality you will be able to just move around stuff anyway so it is not all that useful. And obviously using more non-daemon engine units in it is pointless. Personally I think with the same list I probably would have done better using VotlW, Raiders, or Pact Bound. I am certainly not going to go out to buy the amount of daemon engines needed to make this detachment work, which I think it still would probably be inferior to Raiders or Pact Bound with the same list.
Units
Vashtorr- So first, he doesn't get any benefit from "his" detachment which is weird. He is better in basically every other one. As for raw data sheet, he is pretty much the same as a daemon prince. The [Devastating Wounds] is nice, especially with the [anti-vehicle 4+] In the game the only vehicle I got him into was a spider robot thing and I ended up rolling 4 ones to wound : (. The making the enemy weapons hazardous is cute, but it did not stop my opponent from targeting him with big AT shots, and he passed all the checks anyway. (that was pretty much how this game went, my opponent rolled really hot, especially with the 4++ saves, and I was cold, with a bunch of my big hit units rolling multiple ones to wound.) Other than in Pact Bound (he can't take a mark) I would use him over a normal daemon prince with wings as he is only 10 points more. But then again who is using daemon princes right now?
Warpsmith- Give +1 to hit to the forgefiend and heal. Enough said.
Maulerfiend- This model looks so good, yet is so meh. The main fists are just under powered with only 6 attacks (8 with the contract rule) but it is only -2 ap, which is annoying as this thing is for breaking walls and vehicles. (also Sang guard now get -3 ap on their weapons, but not on this guys mega fists? come on!) The lasher attacks are almost pointless as there are not enough for hoards, but with damage 1, ap -1 they suck against bigger stuff. This guy really needs a massive points drop, or a major change to his rules. Back to the shelf with thee.
Forgefiend- We all know what this guy does. Deliver [Devastating Wounds] at range. however, he doesn't get a whole lot out of the +1 to wound, and is much better in Pact Bound.
2 x venomcrawlers- These things were ok, but they are fragile and their weapons are not great against any hard targets, even with the +1 to wound. I still like them, but I am taking a break from them for my next list. They probably need a points cut.
Vindicator- I daemonized it, but did did not gain much from that. Wounding on 2s against a vehicle was nice (except when you roll 5 yes, 5 ones to wound). He is still pretty good, but I think the points increase was unwarranted.
Hellbrute- I daemonized it, and again that did not do much, especially since he failed two pacts early and I couldn't use the pact as he was down to two wounds when I needed it. Outside of Pact Bound, his ability is much more lack luster, and quite frankly, he costs to much for what he does.
20 x cultists with Dark Commune- I love this unit. It tagged my home objective, moved mid-field, took another, tagged it then another, also burning some per the mission. They scored like more than half my points. The dark commune giving a 5++ makes this unit annoying to deal with if you don't have a dedicated anti-hoard weapon (he did not). Their high OC allows them just to swamp objectives. I am still POed that the ranged options are gone, but I used my old school 1990's models with the cloaks knives and pistols, which I had not used in years. I think I am bring this unit in most lists to tag my home objective and then just be annoying in the middle.
3 x bikers- So these guys don't belong in this list, but I got three new ones that are conversions from the Primaris bikers (I will post pics if anyone would like to see them) and since I just got them, I wanted to use them. This was not the list for them so no judgement on them as they did not do a whole lot.
10 x Possessed lead by a master of possession- Holy underwhelming over-nerfedness batman! These guys were always ok to pretty good in the index. Now, they are down right bad. Yes they were not good in this detachment, but I don't think that would have mattered a whole lot. The loss of their [Devastating Wounds] down to only once per game has made them irrelevant. Their -1 ap makes their attacks bounce hard, and the d2 doesn't make up for it as the -1 is awful against anything that the d2 would actually matter against. The loss of the feel no pain is also huge, and quite frankly, the master of possession for its own -1 ap crappy CC attacks, awful ranged attack, and only +1 to advance and charge is just not worth it. He would need to come down like 30 points to be worth while now. These guys need either ap -2 or their old rule back. Or a huge price cut.
2x Obliterators- again the nerf to them (their AT attack down to 18 inches so melta at 9 not 12) just killed these guys. Also being only able to take two not four is just not efficient. Again, this is not the detachment for them, but outside pact bound, I don't see these guys out competing terminators, havocs, vindicators, or predators, many of which are much much cheaper.
10 x traitor guard with their commissar and ogyran model. These were just a fun pick I put in due to the bikes going in last minute (just go them) throwing off all my points. They are ok, the free overwatch I don't think is very impressive as this units shooting is not very impressive (three flamers with that could be cool, but can't take that). The commissar and ogryan are way to expensive for what they do. I think everyone knows this unit is not great outside of that weird list I posted above.
Well that is it. I am planning on using a more conventional force next time I play, hopefully soon, using VotlW (trying to stay away from Raiders and Pact Bound). Thanks.
Here are the bikes. I was going to make a conversion like this myself, but saw these on Ebay when I was looking to get the parts to do it myself. They looked so good I just had to buy them, and they weren't that expensive, but a bit more then I would have usually paid (I try to get things on the cheap on Ebay).
This really doesn’t feel like a lively edition. Back in 8th, these threads were full of activity. I just booted up the current downloads, started with the designers’ notes to check on the status of sticky objectives (we had a divergence of interpretations in our gaming circle), got to page 7 of 34 and felt my enthusiasm evaporate. Feels like we’ve got both bland simplicity AND overcomplicated bloat now. Anyone else finding it difficult to muster enthusiasm for our codex?
I think part of it is the prescriptive unit sizes and lack of granularity. Not being able to take a couple of extra Heretacs, or a lone Obliterator, or trade a missile for a lascannon, makes list building a headache. Now the use-all-your-points tweak is stuff like ‘exchange your raptors for warp talons’. Can’t even creatively faff with Daemons, now, with the battleline restrictions there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Those bikes look ace!
lindsay40k wrote: This really doesn’t feel like a lively edition. Back in 8th, these threads were full of activity. I just booted up the current downloads, started with the designers’ notes to check on the status of sticky objectives (we had a divergence of interpretations in our gaming circle), got to page 7 of 34 and felt my enthusiasm evaporate. Feels like we’ve got both bland simplicity AND overcomplicated bloat now. Anyone else finding it difficult to muster enthusiasm for our codex?
I think part of it is the prescriptive unit sizes and lack of granularity. Not being able to take a couple of extra Heretacs, or a lone Obliterator, or trade a missile for a lascannon, makes list building a headache. Now the use-all-your-points tweak is stuff like ‘exchange your raptors for warp talons’. Can’t even creatively faff with Daemons, now, with the battleline restrictions there.
Yes, yes and yes. It feels like everything was written by a lawyer. Makes my head ache to read. And the lack of granularity and customisation is awful, especially as my friend and I tend to play smaller games. Makes list building such a pain.
I really am tempted to just ditch my pre-dedicated-codex World Eaters, and my poor neglected Drukhari, and just start fresh with something else. (Bolt Action maybe...)
Personally I think that the current edition is pretty good, and definitely not as complex as some of the past editions. The core rules are pretty easy to grasp, and yea the big designer's commentary is a bit of a pain to navigate, I don't find myself having to use that very much, and if you have a more nuanced question, posting on the forum is a good way to find where the answer is. Also the last game my opponent and I agreed that we were not using the stupid pivot rules. I don't mind the not paying for equipment, some options are clearly better, but it makes it easier to build without having to remember what you took off or put on, and makes it harder for people to make mistakes (I have had many times where people accidentally had 5 to 10 points over because they took off a hammer or something then forgot that they did that while playing). I do agree that I would prefer if you could pay per model however. The app already makes you increase the squad sizes by one model per click, so it would not be that hard to change that, and it would add some flexibility into list building because I have lists that are like 20 or 30 points short and nothing I can spend that on.
I've been playing a Veterans list and had avoided posting for a while, as I was watching the CSM meta and was interested to see how that evolved. Recently Liam VSI ran a Veterans list that won the LGT and it made me interested to see if it was similar. It actually looks quite different, but I can't say if the mechanics are similar.
Basically, this list iteration has had the longest unbeaten run of the test lists I've used and I feel like its the most refined CSM build I've used. Its beaten all the meta archetypes: but I would be tempted to make one change (I'll mention later). Here it is:
Veterans of the Long War
Cypher
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour
Traitor Enforcer
Obliterators (x2)
Helbrute
Chaos Terminators (x10)
Legionnaires (x5)
Traitor Guard (x10)
Chaos Bikes (x3)
Warp Talons (x5)
Havocs (x5)
Chaos Predator Destructor
Chaos Vindicator
Forgefiend
Allies
Nurglings (x6)
The list relies on a few plays I've not really seen in the meta.
1) I'll typically deploy Terminators, rather than Deep Strike or Ingress, if the table/DZ is short. Against Oath archetypes, or similar shooting archetypes, if the Terminators are picked they stay behind a wall and the Vindicator gets sent up the center, or visa versa if the Vindicator is picked. Then, Cypher and the Traitor Guard get pushed onto the center objective and I will typically screen Cypher from charges, with the Guard. If you face a melee rush list, you can use Terminators to threaten a counter charge.
2) I set traps for the opponent: if I go first either the Terminators or Vindicator get sent up the center. Then my Focus target is chosen on the presumption that the Vindicator will overwatch. Terminators can do this though too, if needed (if the opponent focuses on the Vindicator) and then Focus can be somewhere else. I then put Oblits behind a wall in a ruin, usually in no man's land or edge of the DZ (again they start on the board, if its short). Then the trap is sprung, if the opponent bites: overwatch from the Vindicator/Terminators and Traitor Guard will delete key threats and return fire is blunted, I'll pop defensive strats to keep the Vindicator/Terminators alive. Thing is, with rerolls and pacts CSM overwatch is basically like getting to shoot again and remember, defensive starts can't be triggered on overwatch, so sometimes you might do more damage than in the shooting phase.
3) Now in my next turn, the Terminators advance out of the DZ and sit exactly 9" from the far edge of the center objective, shooting and Hexing stuff in the midfield. Oblits can pop whatever killed (if it did) the Vindicator, which is the next Focus target; as with rerolls and ignore cover strat the Oblits warp rift firepower is basically unaffected by indirect penalties. When the opponent tries to get stuff on the objective, you reactive move the Terminators behind a wall and overwatch something else in the midfield, or switch the Focus target to the thing going on the objective, and overwatch with something else. I got really good at practicing moving the Terminators, in such a way that they can advance, shoot from the second floor of a ruin, overwatch (if possible, or with another unit) and then duck behind a wall on the other side of the ruin. So, the Terminators and Oblits get to trade up, with no counter play and the only thing you lose is a Vindicator, at worst (which itself probably traded up in overwatch).
4) If you go second, you can do the same thing, but basically the Terminators get sent a turn sooner, as they will have targets to knock off objectives and our more likely to get the reactive move.
5) Bikes, Legionnaires and Warp Talons are there to score and do secondaries, Nurglings for screening and blocking off objectives. Warp Talons in this build are important, because you have low body count and so they threaten cheap, chaff scoring units, which they can easily kill and then rapid ingress the next turn and rinse repeat.
6) Now, I would consider removing the Traitor Guard and Enforcer and some of the Nurglings and maybe the Legionnaires, to add in a full ACDC unit, but then I'd be joining the bandwagon and I like having Legionnaires in a Black Legion army for fluff reasons.
Against a melee rush (Wolves, World Eaters, Orks), I deploy the Nurglings, Traitor Guard (without Enforcer) in a long thin screen and then just shoot them off the table, as they approach.
That looks like a cool list. Yea I think the terminator sorcerer is underrated. The traitor guard are a bit underwhelming for the cost with the leader. I know you love the over-watch and they do it free and another time, but I found their shooting underwhelming. Have you thought about a lord with the 5+ crit wounds with a hammer to put with the legionaries? I have one I want to run in my vets list and I think he will be a serious threat. I think if you drop the traitor guards, leader, and nurglings you can fit in him with a rhino to bring them to the center board and murder
xeen wrote: That looks like a cool list. Yea I think the terminator sorcerer is underrated. The traitor guard are a bit underwhelming for the cost with the leader. I know you love the over-watch and they do it free and another time, but I found their shooting underwhelming. Have you thought about a lord with the 5+ crit wounds with a hammer to put with the legionaries? I have one I want to run in my vets list and I think he will be a serious threat. I think if you drop the traitor guards, leader, and nurglings you can fit in him with a rhino to bring them to the center board and murder
The list doesn't have a problem taking (and keeping) the center. In all the games I've tested I've never lost the center. The problem is the wings, back and enemy DZ. I don't have enough assets to be able to cover all bases and I'm relying on Warp Talons up/downing to get Behind Enemy Lines.
A case could be made for dropping the Traitor Guard combo and adding some Cultists and a unit of Noise Marines. This would give me another unit to reserve and do actions etc.
However, I like the Guard as they are OC2 and despite what you say, I think the firepower is respectable for the cost.
Abaddon the Despoiler -15 to 280
Accursed Cultists (16 models) +15 to 195
Chaos Predator Annihilator -10 to 130
Chaos Terminator Squad -5/10 to 180/360
Dark Commune +15 to 80
Havocs -10 to 125
Legionaries (10 models) -10 to 170
Lord Discordant on Helstalker -15 to 175
Obliterators -10 to 160
Possessed -5/10 to 120/240
Raptors (10 models) -10 to 170
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour -10 to 80
Vashtorr the Arkifane -15 to 175
Warp Talons (5 models) -10 to 125
So these are interesting for what is and is not here. First, terminators w/ Sorcerer was already looking pretty good, now much better. 10 man legionaries down is also cool. Warp Talons down is WTF. Obliterators might be interesting now, with that really health points cut. Again drop to the predator annilator was weird as I believe they were seeing significant use.
The nerfs to the DC and Accursed Cultists was expected.
Some of the other drops are not really going to change much. Lord Discordant is still to much (he could be 120 and still would rarely be considered, he needs a rule change) Vashtorr by 15 is ok, but again still not enough to make him really that viable. Was anyone taking 10 man raptor squads? Is 10 less points going to make anyone take 10 man raptor squads? Especially since the lord on jump pack is still to expensive. Possessed, 5 points not enough to overcome their weakness in one time use ability, especially with terminators getting cheaper and chosen staying the same. Again they need a rules change more than points.
So, I think it is clear that the niche units from Blackstone and kill team are meant to stay niche. No points cuts for beastmen, traitor enforcer, or firebrand, which are all to expensive by a wide margin. Firebrand also needs a lieutenant style rules so he can join units with the DC, that would make a spice cultist unit.
Also no drop on points for the Daemon Princes? They are seldom used. Also Hellbrutes could probably use a small drop. They are really not that great outside of Pact Bound.
Overall however, I think CSM came out better than they went in (unlike my TS!) I think some of the internal balance issues and some of the really bad units (lord discordant and possessed) need rules changes rather than points cuts anyway. What do other people think?
I'm running Noise Marines, SoulForged,
and actually didn't have any real points drops,
but even with the drops, no plans to add any of those to my list
Yea I think 10 as a damage dealing unit is probably the way to go. You can put a lord in there and +1 to him with the hammer is pretty cool, especially if it is war master's gift. I would probably load them out with the CC weapons and chainswords, then bring one Plasma gun as well, and forego the heavy weapon. My thoughts are you get them into charge range, fire the plasma gun/pistol to try to get a wound on the enemy to trigger the +1 to hit, then charge and hit them hard with the unit and probably a lord. With stealth and any detachment with a advance and charge strat you might be able to save points on a rhino for them as the -1 will help mitigate damage as they move up the field, and then advance and charge for speed.
Also the standard that stops strats in engagement range is going to be really nasty against some armies. Armies that rely on fight on death, AoC for protection in melee, strikes first, interrupt to say a few will really be boned by these guys. Hell they will be good at stopping "fall back and shoot/charge" strats which is also huge if they don't kill a unit.
Overall I am pretty impressed with them, their rules could have been a lot worse. I think they are nice as they are not auto-include but do compete well against Legionaries and maybe Chosen for CC blender units. I think with their OC down to 1 they may stand to be a little cheaper to compete with the Legionaries better on a pure competitive basis, but for friendly or club games I think they work.
xeen wrote: Yea I think 10 as a damage dealing unit is probably the way to go. You can put a lord in there and +1 to him with the hammer is pretty cool, especially if it is war master's gift. I would probably load them out with the CC weapons and chainswords, then bring one Plasma gun as well, and forego the heavy weapon. My thoughts are you get them into charge range, fire the plasma gun/pistol to try to get a wound on the enemy to trigger the +1 to hit, then charge and hit them hard with the unit and probably a lord. With stealth and any detachment with a advance and charge strat you might be able to save points on a rhino for them as the -1 will help mitigate damage as they move up the field, and then advance and charge for speed.
Also the standard that stops strats in engagement range is going to be really nasty against some armies. Armies that rely on fight on death, AoC for protection in melee, strikes first, interrupt to say a few will really be boned by these guys. Hell they will be good at stopping "fall back and shoot/charge" strats which is also huge if they don't kill a unit.
Overall I am pretty impressed with them, their rules could have been a lot worse. I think they are nice as they are not auto-include but do compete well against Legionaries and maybe Chosen for CC blender units. I think with their OC down to 1 they may stand to be a little cheaper to compete with the Legionaries better on a pure competitive basis, but for friendly or club games I think they work.
Stealth doesn't work with an attached character.
Rules wrote:If every model in a unit has this ability, then each time a ranged attack is made against it, subtract 1 from that attack’s Hit roll.
With the change in points I've been running a new list. I dropped the Guard contingent, because the points opened new avenues.
Veterans of the Long War
Cypher
Abaddon the Despoiler
Obliterators (x2)
Chaos Terminators (x10)
Legionnaires (x5)
Accursed Cultists (x8)
Chaos Cultists (x10)
Chaos Bikes (x3)
Warp Talons (x5)
Havocs (x5)
Chaos Predator Destructor
Chaos Vindicator
Forgefiend
Allies
Nurglings (x3)
Rather than write a long waffling account of micro interactions, I thought I'd highlight five unique CSM plays and units that the list exemplifies.
1) Abaddon. I'd never used him because the cost was too prohibitive, but for fun I dropped the Sorcerer in Terminator Armour and the Helbrute and added him. What I found was quite interesting. The best way, I think, to envision Abaddon is as a Turn 1 source of indirect. What this means is that he hides behind a ruin wall, with a unit of Terminators and gives rerolls to a Vindicator, Havocs, Cypher or some other units that pop out on Turn 1. With the rerolls and particularly Overwatch being boosted thusly by Abaddon, he more or less pays for spending a turn out of action. On Turn 2 he and the unit he's with move out to engage and the cool thing with the Terminators is that they natively have rerolls, so do the same things (Overwatch trick etc.), while Abaddon does the reroll pact ability to preserve the other units, as part of the big push. The problem with Chosen by comparison, is that they turn Abaddon into a heat seeking one-shot missile, whereas the Terminators make him more of the prolonged trading game buffing piece that I think he excels at, before the final charge, which finishes everything off. Also, with the reactive move and fights first, this death star unit can be quite tricky to deal with, when it does commit.
2) Obliterators. I already talked about how great Obliterators are in Veterans. But they pair very well with the above Abaddon castle tactic, because with Focus of Hatred they can operate separately from him and really dial up the early game indirect, if you put them on the table, or can Rapid Ingress or some such, without needing Abaddon. I thought I'd put it in context that the damage output of Oblits on the go-turn can potentially be as much as the dedicated indirect of other armies across an entire game, if they have rerolls, pacts, ignore cover etc. With the reactive move they can be tricky to counter, when you do move them out.
3) Warp Talons. Everybody loved these before and at the lowered points I think they are great again. Pair them with a Cultist unit or Legionnaires, kill a unit with them, take them off the table let the Cultists or Legionnaires score, rinse repeat. Put them on the table and they will scare cheap, scoring chaff off objectives all game.
4) Cypher. Still amazing. With reactive move, he really feels busted and can support the Terminator death star, do actions, score, has surprising damage output and creates pressure in the center with his command point tax.
5) Accursed Cultists. Before the points increase, people used them as a kind of elite infantry horde unit, where the Howling Horde was just gravy that meant you could only shoot them once, or so before getting tagged. Now, I think they work better as a smaller pressure unit: opponent knows they need to remove them in a single volley, or they will tag objectives, so all of sudden they need to shoot them with bigger things that would prefer to shoot Terminators, Vindicators or Obliterators. Also, with scout and reactive move, they enable you to apply that pressure early game, which is the key difference maker and combines well with the above pressure plays (Abaddon, Oblits etc.).
Distraction Carnifex suggests more of an implied threat. With the smaller AC unit, your opponent literally gets one chance to shoot them, before they tag something on an objective, so they mechanically need to divert more resources than an equivalent unit would require.
Assault armies care less about this, because they can just charge them. But then the Scout move allows you to position them for a counter charge.
Small AC units are great because they allow you to control the action around objectives reactively, rather than in your turn.
I like the list and the concept Samii, I also like how is is not spam-tastic. I also think Veterans is a good detachment that has a lot of potential, it is just that the Raiders and Pact Bound are easier to use, so people gravitate toward those (unless your that guy who is crushing it with the cultist lists). I am looking forward to any action reports with the list
xeen wrote: I like the list and the concept Samii, I also like how is is not spam-tastic. I also think Veterans is a good detachment that has a lot of potential, it is just that the Raiders and Pact Bound are easier to use, so people gravitate toward those (unless your that guy who is crushing it with the cultist lists). I am looking forward to any action reports with the list
So, I always felt that Raiders was a bit of a trap. See Raiders leans into perceived CSM strengths, but does nothing for the weaknesses. The all or nothing, full send approach. 10th is a trading game, where small units get put on objectives to draw bigger things out. This plays against the Raiders archetype, in my opinion.
It basically turns CSM into World Eaters, without the anchor of Angron and the crazy mobility. And one of the strengths of CSM in 10th is shooting, they shoot just as well as vanilla Marines and they have the best Overwatch in the game.
I remember in 9th getting hammered by my mates Dark Angels when they weren't meta, because they could do the reroll hits and explodes on Overwatch. Later I saw an Australian guy doing this at tournaments and he did quite well. The lethality of units got toned down a lot from 9th to 10th, but CSM kept something like this in pacts and reroll hits. The Veterans detachment basically lets you do this, with any unit. Overwatch is important in 10th, because you can't use reactive strats against it.
I also think that reactive move in Veterans is just incredibly good. It can benefit Cypher, where he becomes almost untouchable, Terminators, Obliterators and Accursed Cultists.
Now, I've always thought Pactbound were good and I played them a lot, initially. But Veterans, Cult and possibly Deceptors are the real tech detachments, in my opinion and I think there are tools in there that makes CSM more than just a one trick pony.
xeen wrote: I am looking forward to any action reports with the list
I can relay a quick anecdote. I always test against a Gladius TAC marine list, as it has the most counter play. I posted this a while back: Redemptors, Gladiator Lancer, Fire Discipline Lieutenant with Hellblasters in a Repulsor, Infiltrators, Scouts etc. I played against an iteration of this with some Eradicators in a Repulsor, also.
Turn 1, I move a Vindicator out behind a ruin with LOS on the center objective and pop rerolls on Abaddon, who is hidden with Terminators. On the right flank I move an AC unit within range of an objective and to challenge some Infiltrators and bikes head out to claim the left flank objective. Obliterators are hidden in a ruin on the right flank. The Vindicator is able to destroy the Lancer, I discard an objective, to get me another command point. Cypher puts a toe on the center objective.
In the marine turn I reactively move Cypher away from the Eradicators and Bladeguard, which are played aggressively to counter the Vindicator. Hellblasters also move out to shoot the Vindicator and AC unit and threaten Overwatch against anything moving onto the center objective. Vindicator is the Oath target. I Overwatch with the Vindicator and kill four Eradicators. I pop AoC on the Vindicator. now, return shooting drops the Vindicator and the AC unit to two big dudes (one on a wound). The AC unit then tags the Infiltrators and kill most of them.
So, at this point its basically checkmate. The Oblits will pick up the remaining Hellblasters (a few died from overcharging), then the Terminators jump to the second floor, Havocs pop out on the other side of the ruin, with the Predator and Forgefiend and shoot almost everything off the center (Redemptor, last of the Eradicators, Bladeguard etc.). Bikes kill the Scouts on the left hand side.
The real difference maker here was the Vindicator Overwatch, Cypher and the AC unit making plays in the opponent's turn.
The remaining 35 points go to the beat stick character enhancement.
The idea is to always take the plus 2" movement, then flood the mid-board with all the troops with the oblits and havocs being fire support. Everything starts on the board except the raptors which are action monkeys. The warp talons with a 14" move plus the advance and charge strat have a good chance to turn 1 charge, and will definitely turn 1 charge any scout units etc that start in the mid-board, then jump into the air. The chosen lead by the Lord will just beat on things, and the terminators will be tough to deal with. While I don't think Possessed are all that good, two small five man moving at 11" will be very disruptive even if not too kill-y. I think vehicle heavy lists might be a problem for this, and probably Custodes, but it should do well against everything else. This is also not the most efficient list I think could be built this way, this is just what I have in my collection. I think 3 x 5 chosen with a lord in each would be killer in this list, and the terminators might want a lord instead of the sorcerer. Also 10 man legionaries squads could be good with the regeneration start as you get d3 of those back.
Thoughts on this or how anyone else would use the bile detachment?
Note: While I think this detachment is cool and fluffy , I really wish we got a Psychic detachment similar to the space marine one. Chaos has a lot more psychic units so that would have really been interesting.
NOLA Chris wrote: Looks like a fun list!
Will be great for a Narative Event!
I absolutely LOVE the idea of the Obliterators
since we'd now have the strat to bring back "1 model"...
I'm probably going to try the +1 T to see how that does...
are the break points from T5 to T6 for termies, and T7 to T8 for Obliterators,
good overall?
I'm bad at mathhammer
Thanks. I am going to try to play it against my buddy bringing the ork one. The toughness will really be based what army you are facing. I think that is a good call depending on the match up, if you notice a lot of S5-6 or S7-8 shooting, but if not pick something else. My list is built around having the +2" move which is why I would take that in every match, unless the +1T is going to effect 90% of the army, in which case I would think about it. I would also never risk rolling for 2 as you are more likely to get a combo you don't want than do (maybe if you brought Bile, but I still wound not). If I was going to pick one other than the move, I would probably take +1 attack in melee which is a huge damage buff (I think more so than +1 to hit when you factor in [Sustained] from dark pacts). My plan is to flex into that one with the strat on my two deathstar units (chosen/terminators) when it could make the difference killing something. But if I am playing someone who also has an army based on quickly moving to the center and engaging in melee, I might be tempted to take the +1 attacks. That is the nice thing about this detachment, it is flexible.
I think with the change to the foot prince getting lone op, I think you might be able to make something interesting out of this, but I think it will probably still be out competed by Bile, Raiders and Vets. Possessed Legionaries with swords and Chosen will really like having that extra ap-1 if you can keep the foot prince near by. I don't think the shooting effect is all that great, I really wish the rule was both auras came from psyker models and daemon princes. That would make this much better as you could ensure you get -1 ap on melee units you want it on by adding a pskyer.
The enhancements seem ok, but it does have some interesting strats with the resurrection one, advance and charge is always good for CSM, and the mortal wound one could be helpful to finish a badly damaged unit off. To bad the balefire tome doesn't give the psyker key word, only a psyker attack.
I think it will not be the worst detachment, but not top tier.
Edit. Rubrics could be good in this. Auto st 5 on their ranged weapons and I think they keep battle line so could resurect
The changes to Vasstor and the Lord Discordant seem pretty good. Not sure if they are going to out compete the foot prince if you want a monster type model now that the foot gets Lone op, but I think I will bust out the Lord Discordant again if I get a chance to play CSM any time soon (plan on playing TS for the near future)
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