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Thanks for the write ups.

I haven't been able to play with the new book yet, and it is really frustrating. However, my first list is the VotlW. Your thoughts on it are interesting as I said prior to the codex drop that I think VotlW is a sleeper detachment. The re-roll hits with the pacts is really good, and all of the strats bar maybe one, are not just usable, but are actually good. As soon as I can get a game in I will do a write up. Thanks for your input Samii

 xeen wrote:
Thanks for the write ups.

I haven't been able to play with the new book yet, and it is really frustrating. However, my first list is the VotlW. Your thoughts on it are interesting as I said prior to the codex drop that I think VotlW is a sleeper detachment. The re-roll hits with the pacts is really good, and all of the strats bar maybe one, are not just usable, but are actually good. As soon as I can get a game in I will do a write up. Thanks for your input Samii

I just realised the missing piece of the puzzle with the CSM nightmare OW build, though it had been staring me in the face: Cypher.

With Cypher that's three units that can shoot for free basically on the opponents turn. If they want to take out Cypher, they would need to get within 12" of the other stuff and the OW protects him. If you place him out front of the Terminators and the Traitor Guard, but behind the AC, you force the opponent to come towards you. Combine that with rerolls from Veterans, Hex and a Helbrute and its GG.

Best,
Samii.

This list won a over 200 person tournament..........with the cultist detachment!!!!

https://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Derek-Apsche-2nd-Place-Frontline-Gaming-LSO-2024-%E2%80%93-Chaos-Space-Marines-Allies-.pdf

that is a WILD list!
great board control and denial,
looks fun!

where is the anti-armor component?
I haven't played all those units yet

 NOLA Chris wrote:
that is a WILD list!
great board control and denial,
looks fun!

where is the anti-armor component?
I haven't played all those units yet

Quantity over quality.

So finally got a game in after like a 4 month gap. I played the Soul Forge Pack detachment with Vashtorr as my warlord. My list is below with a break down. My opponent played Necrons. He brought hyper-crypt legion. I ended up losing the game by ten points. It sucks because I scored 0, yes 0 points for secondaries as my draws were awful in turn 1, 2, and 3 and by turn 4 most of my units were dead. If I had gotten the drop I got turn 4 and 5 turn 1 and 2 I would have won. I don't mind for friendly games, but I would never use the random draw for a competitive game just due to the mess I had in that game. So here is the break down

Dark Pacts - So this is my first game not using the index with the Pact Bound rules for the 5+ crits. Personally, without that detachment ability I think the dark pacts are a bit meh. I took a lot of damage from failing dark pacts this game (more on that in a bit) and I don't think it was really worth the extra few [Sustained Hits] or [Lethal Hits] I got. I am not going to use Pact Bound for a long while since I played so many games with what is essentially that detachment, but the loss of the 5+ crits was noticeable.

Soul Forge Pact- So when this detachment dropped I thought I could potentially be way over the top. As you can see from my units I did not have enough daemon engines to fully exploit it, and if I did I would probably only have brought the cultists and maybe one or two smaller squads for objective napping and action monkey and the rest would have been more daemon engines. That being said, the detachment is probably still not that great. I did a ton of damage to my own units, the -1 to the dark pact test really really hurts. The +1 to wound is nice for ranged attacks but the +2 attacks is not really that good. I did not really get to use the strats all that much, I used the healing one which actually sucks as you have to roll a 5+ to heal (that should really be a 3+ since it is capped at 6 anyway). I used the one that if the fall back is desperate escape, but he did not fail any test. That one is very swing-y. I turned my hellbrute and vindicator into daemon engines, but really neither got a whole lot out of that. I did not get to use the move though terrain one, and while that looks good on paper, I think in reality you will be able to just move around stuff anyway so it is not all that useful. And obviously using more non-daemon engine units in it is pointless. Personally I think with the same list I probably would have done better using VotlW, Raiders, or Pact Bound. I am certainly not going to go out to buy the amount of daemon engines needed to make this detachment work, which I think it still would probably be inferior to Raiders or Pact Bound with the same list.

Units
Vashtorr- So first, he doesn't get any benefit from "his" detachment which is weird. He is better in basically every other one. As for raw data sheet, he is pretty much the same as a daemon prince. The [Devastating Wounds] is nice, especially with the [anti-vehicle 4+] In the game the only vehicle I got him into was a spider robot thing and I ended up rolling 4 ones to wound : (. The making the enemy weapons hazardous is cute, but it did not stop my opponent from targeting him with big AT shots, and he passed all the checks anyway. (that was pretty much how this game went, my opponent rolled really hot, especially with the 4++ saves, and I was cold, with a bunch of my big hit units rolling multiple ones to wound.) Other than in Pact Bound (he can't take a mark) I would use him over a normal daemon prince with wings as he is only 10 points more. But then again who is using daemon princes right now?

Warpsmith- Give +1 to hit to the forgefiend and heal. Enough said.

Maulerfiend- This model looks so good, yet is so meh. The main fists are just under powered with only 6 attacks (8 with the contract rule) but it is only -2 ap, which is annoying as this thing is for breaking walls and vehicles. (also Sang guard now get -3 ap on their weapons, but not on this guys mega fists? come on!) The lasher attacks are almost pointless as there are not enough for hoards, but with damage 1, ap -1 they suck against bigger stuff. This guy really needs a massive points drop, or a major change to his rules. Back to the shelf with thee.

Forgefiend- We all know what this guy does. Deliver [Devastating Wounds] at range. however, he doesn't get a whole lot out of the +1 to wound, and is much better in Pact Bound.

2 x venomcrawlers- These things were ok, but they are fragile and their weapons are not great against any hard targets, even with the +1 to wound. I still like them, but I am taking a break from them for my next list. They probably need a points cut.

Vindicator- I daemonized it, but did did not gain much from that. Wounding on 2s against a vehicle was nice (except when you roll 5 yes, 5 ones to wound). He is still pretty good, but I think the points increase was unwarranted.

Hellbrute- I daemonized it, and again that did not do much, especially since he failed two pacts early and I couldn't use the pact as he was down to two wounds when I needed it. Outside of Pact Bound, his ability is much more lack luster, and quite frankly, he costs to much for what he does.

20 x cultists with Dark Commune- I love this unit. It tagged my home objective, moved mid-field, took another, tagged it then another, also burning some per the mission. They scored like more than half my points. The dark commune giving a 5++ makes this unit annoying to deal with if you don't have a dedicated anti-hoard weapon (he did not). Their high OC allows them just to swamp objectives. I am still POed that the ranged options are gone, but I used my old school 1990's models with the cloaks knives and pistols, which I had not used in years. I think I am bring this unit in most lists to tag my home objective and then just be annoying in the middle.

3 x bikers- So these guys don't belong in this list, but I got three new ones that are conversions from the Primaris bikers (I will post pics if anyone would like to see them) and since I just got them, I wanted to use them. This was not the list for them so no judgement on them as they did not do a whole lot.

10 x Possessed lead by a master of possession- Holy underwhelming over-nerfedness batman! These guys were always ok to pretty good in the index. Now, they are down right bad. Yes they were not good in this detachment, but I don't think that would have mattered a whole lot. The loss of their [Devastating Wounds] down to only once per game has made them irrelevant. Their -1 ap makes their attacks bounce hard, and the d2 doesn't make up for it as the -1 is awful against anything that the d2 would actually matter against. The loss of the feel no pain is also huge, and quite frankly, the master of possession for its own -1 ap crappy CC attacks, awful ranged attack, and only +1 to advance and charge is just not worth it. He would need to come down like 30 points to be worth while now. These guys need either ap -2 or their old rule back. Or a huge price cut.

2x Obliterators- again the nerf to them (their AT attack down to 18 inches so melta at 9 not 12) just killed these guys. Also being only able to take two not four is just not efficient. Again, this is not the detachment for them, but outside pact bound, I don't see these guys out competing terminators, havocs, vindicators, or predators, many of which are much much cheaper.

10 x traitor guard with their commissar and ogyran model. These were just a fun pick I put in due to the bikes going in last minute (just go them) throwing off all my points. They are ok, the free overwatch I don't think is very impressive as this units shooting is not very impressive (three flamers with that could be cool, but can't take that). The commissar and ogryan are way to expensive for what they do. I think everyone knows this unit is not great outside of that weird list I posted above.

Well that is it. I am planning on using a more conventional force next time I play, hopefully soon, using VotlW (trying to stay away from Raiders and Pact Bound). Thanks.

Do share the conversions.

And I like Maulerfiends! (Not saying they're good, but I like smashy dinobots.)

Here are the bikes. I was going to make a conversion like this myself, but saw these on Ebay when I was looking to get the parts to do it myself. They looked so good I just had to buy them, and they weren't that expensive, but a bit more then I would have usually paid (I try to get things on the cheap on Ebay).

This really doesn’t feel like a lively edition. Back in 8th, these threads were full of activity. I just booted up the current downloads, started with the designers’ notes to check on the status of sticky objectives (we had a divergence of interpretations in our gaming circle), got to page 7 of 34 and felt my enthusiasm evaporate. Feels like we’ve got both bland simplicity AND overcomplicated bloat now. Anyone else finding it difficult to muster enthusiasm for our codex?

I think part of it is the prescriptive unit sizes and lack of granularity. Not being able to take a couple of extra Heretacs, or a lone Obliterator, or trade a missile for a lascannon, makes list building a headache. Now the use-all-your-points tweak is stuff like ‘exchange your raptors for warp talons’. Can’t even creatively faff with Daemons, now, with the battleline restrictions there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those bikes look ace!

I play 40k against 1 person, but even then I'm actively shooting myself in the foot playing EC...

10th sucks for the "non-supported" legions

 lindsay40k wrote:
This really doesn’t feel like a lively edition. Back in 8th, these threads were full of activity. I just booted up the current downloads, started with the designers’ notes to check on the status of sticky objectives (we had a divergence of interpretations in our gaming circle), got to page 7 of 34 and felt my enthusiasm evaporate. Feels like we’ve got both bland simplicity AND overcomplicated bloat now. Anyone else finding it difficult to muster enthusiasm for our codex?

I think part of it is the prescriptive unit sizes and lack of granularity. Not being able to take a couple of extra Heretacs, or a lone Obliterator, or trade a missile for a lascannon, makes list building a headache. Now the use-all-your-points tweak is stuff like ‘exchange your raptors for warp talons’. Can’t even creatively faff with Daemons, now, with the battleline restrictions there.

Yes, yes and yes. It feels like everything was written by a lawyer. Makes my head ache to read. And the lack of granularity and customisation is awful, especially as my friend and I tend to play smaller games. Makes list building such a pain.

I really am tempted to just ditch my pre-dedicated-codex World Eaters, and my poor neglected Drukhari, and just start fresh with something else. (Bolt Action maybe...)

Play an old edition instead. Has also the advantage that you know with hindsight a lot of the pitfalls of those editions and can fix them.

Of course that requires a degree of community organisation....

Personally I think that the current edition is pretty good, and definitely not as complex as some of the past editions. The core rules are pretty easy to grasp, and yea the big designer's commentary is a bit of a pain to navigate, I don't find myself having to use that very much, and if you have a more nuanced question, posting on the forum is a good way to find where the answer is. Also the last game my opponent and I agreed that we were not using the stupid pivot rules. I don't mind the not paying for equipment, some options are clearly better, but it makes it easier to build without having to remember what you took off or put on, and makes it harder for people to make mistakes (I have had many times where people accidentally had 5 to 10 points over because they took off a hammer or something then forgot that they did that while playing). I do agree that I would prefer if you could pay per model however. The app already makes you increase the squad sizes by one model per click, so it would not be that hard to change that, and it would add some flexibility into list building because I have lists that are like 20 or 30 points short and nothing I can spend that on.

Hi all,

I've been playing a Veterans list and had avoided posting for a while, as I was watching the CSM meta and was interested to see how that evolved. Recently Liam VSI ran a Veterans list that won the LGT and it made me interested to see if it was similar. It actually looks quite different, but I can't say if the mechanics are similar.

Basically, this list iteration has had the longest unbeaten run of the test lists I've used and I feel like its the most refined CSM build I've used. Its beaten all the meta archetypes: but I would be tempted to make one change (I'll mention later). Here it is:


Veterans of the Long War

Cypher

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

Traitor Enforcer

Obliterators (x2)

Helbrute

Chaos Terminators (x10)

Legionnaires (x5)

Traitor Guard (x10)

Chaos Bikes (x3)

Warp Talons (x5)

Havocs (x5)

Chaos Predator Destructor

Chaos Vindicator

Forgefiend


Allies

Nurglings (x6)


The list relies on a few plays I've not really seen in the meta.

1) I'll typically deploy Terminators, rather than Deep Strike or Ingress, if the table/DZ is short. Against Oath archetypes, or similar shooting archetypes, if the Terminators are picked they stay behind a wall and the Vindicator gets sent up the center, or visa versa if the Vindicator is picked. Then, Cypher and the Traitor Guard get pushed onto the center objective and I will typically screen Cypher from charges, with the Guard. If you face a melee rush list, you can use Terminators to threaten a counter charge.

2) I set traps for the opponent: if I go first either the Terminators or Vindicator get sent up the center. Then my Focus target is chosen on the presumption that the Vindicator will overwatch. Terminators can do this though too, if needed (if the opponent focuses on the Vindicator) and then Focus can be somewhere else. I then put Oblits behind a wall in a ruin, usually in no man's land or edge of the DZ (again they start on the board, if its short). Then the trap is sprung, if the opponent bites: overwatch from the Vindicator/Terminators and Traitor Guard will delete key threats and return fire is blunted, I'll pop defensive strats to keep the Vindicator/Terminators alive. Thing is, with rerolls and pacts CSM overwatch is basically like getting to shoot again and remember, defensive starts can't be triggered on overwatch, so sometimes you might do more damage than in the shooting phase.

3) Now in my next turn, the Terminators advance out of the DZ and sit exactly 9" from the far edge of the center objective, shooting and Hexing stuff in the midfield. Oblits can pop whatever killed (if it did) the Vindicator, which is the next Focus target; as with rerolls and ignore cover strat the Oblits warp rift firepower is basically unaffected by indirect penalties. When the opponent tries to get stuff on the objective, you reactive move the Terminators behind a wall and overwatch something else in the midfield, or switch the Focus target to the thing going on the objective, and overwatch with something else. I got really good at practicing moving the Terminators, in such a way that they can advance, shoot from the second floor of a ruin, overwatch (if possible, or with another unit) and then duck behind a wall on the other side of the ruin. So, the Terminators and Oblits get to trade up, with no counter play and the only thing you lose is a Vindicator, at worst (which itself probably traded up in overwatch).

4) If you go second, you can do the same thing, but basically the Terminators get sent a turn sooner, as they will have targets to knock off objectives and our more likely to get the reactive move.

5) Bikes, Legionnaires and Warp Talons are there to score and do secondaries, Nurglings for screening and blocking off objectives. Warp Talons in this build are important, because you have low body count and so they threaten cheap, chaff scoring units, which they can easily kill and then rapid ingress the next turn and rinse repeat.

6) Now, I would consider removing the Traitor Guard and Enforcer and some of the Nurglings and maybe the Legionnaires, to add in a full ACDC unit, but then I'd be joining the bandwagon and I like having Legionnaires in a Black Legion army for fluff reasons.

Against a melee rush (Wolves, World Eaters, Orks), I deploy the Nurglings, Traitor Guard (without Enforcer) in a long thin screen and then just shoot them off the table, as they approach.

Best,
Samii.

That looks like a cool list. Yea I think the terminator sorcerer is underrated. The traitor guard are a bit underwhelming for the cost with the leader. I know you love the over-watch and they do it free and another time, but I found their shooting underwhelming. Have you thought about a lord with the 5+ crit wounds with a hammer to put with the legionaries? I have one I want to run in my vets list and I think he will be a serious threat. I think if you drop the traitor guards, leader, and nurglings you can fit in him with a rhino to bring them to the center board and murder

 xeen wrote:
That looks like a cool list. Yea I think the terminator sorcerer is underrated. The traitor guard are a bit underwhelming for the cost with the leader. I know you love the over-watch and they do it free and another time, but I found their shooting underwhelming. Have you thought about a lord with the 5+ crit wounds with a hammer to put with the legionaries? I have one I want to run in my vets list and I think he will be a serious threat. I think if you drop the traitor guards, leader, and nurglings you can fit in him with a rhino to bring them to the center board and murder

The list doesn't have a problem taking (and keeping) the center. In all the games I've tested I've never lost the center. The problem is the wings, back and enemy DZ. I don't have enough assets to be able to cover all bases and I'm relying on Warp Talons up/downing to get Behind Enemy Lines.

A case could be made for dropping the Traitor Guard combo and adding some Cultists and a unit of Noise Marines. This would give me another unit to reserve and do actions etc.

However, I like the Guard as they are OC2 and despite what you say, I think the firepower is respectable for the cost.

Best,
Samii.

So here are the points changes:

Abaddon the Despoiler -15 to 280
Accursed Cultists (16 models) +15 to 195
Chaos Predator Annihilator -10 to 130
Chaos Terminator Squad -5/10 to 180/360
Dark Commune +15 to 80
Havocs -10 to 125
Legionaries (10 models) -10 to 170
Lord Discordant on Helstalker -15 to 175
Obliterators -10 to 160
Possessed -5/10 to 120/240
Raptors (10 models) -10 to 170
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour -10 to 80
Vashtorr the Arkifane -15 to 175
Warp Talons (5 models) -10 to 125

So these are interesting for what is and is not here. First, terminators w/ Sorcerer was already looking pretty good, now much better. 10 man legionaries down is also cool. Warp Talons down is WTF. Obliterators might be interesting now, with that really health points cut. Again drop to the predator annilator was weird as I believe they were seeing significant use.

The nerfs to the DC and Accursed Cultists was expected.

Some of the other drops are not really going to change much. Lord Discordant is still to much (he could be 120 and still would rarely be considered, he needs a rule change) Vashtorr by 15 is ok, but again still not enough to make him really that viable. Was anyone taking 10 man raptor squads? Is 10 less points going to make anyone take 10 man raptor squads? Especially since the lord on jump pack is still to expensive. Possessed, 5 points not enough to overcome their weakness in one time use ability, especially with terminators getting cheaper and chosen staying the same. Again they need a rules change more than points.

So, I think it is clear that the niche units from Blackstone and kill team are meant to stay niche. No points cuts for beastmen, traitor enforcer, or firebrand, which are all to expensive by a wide margin. Firebrand also needs a lieutenant style rules so he can join units with the DC, that would make a spice cultist unit.

Also no drop on points for the Daemon Princes? They are seldom used. Also Hellbrutes could probably use a small drop. They are really not that great outside of Pact Bound.

Overall however, I think CSM came out better than they went in (unlike my TS!) I think some of the internal balance issues and some of the really bad units (lord discordant and possessed) need rules changes rather than points cuts anyway. What do other people think?

I agree with you!

I'm running Noise Marines, SoulForged,
and actually didn't have any real points drops,
but even with the drops, no plans to add any of those to my list

Anyone else see the new nemesis claw data sheet? Looks pretty spicy.

Yeah, I'll probably make a squad. Looks like a good blender unit.

Yea I think 10 as a damage dealing unit is probably the way to go. You can put a lord in there and +1 to him with the hammer is pretty cool, especially if it is war master's gift. I would probably load them out with the CC weapons and chainswords, then bring one Plasma gun as well, and forego the heavy weapon. My thoughts are you get them into charge range, fire the plasma gun/pistol to try to get a wound on the enemy to trigger the +1 to hit, then charge and hit them hard with the unit and probably a lord. With stealth and any detachment with a advance and charge strat you might be able to save points on a rhino for them as the -1 will help mitigate damage as they move up the field, and then advance and charge for speed.

Also the standard that stops strats in engagement range is going to be really nasty against some armies. Armies that rely on fight on death, AoC for protection in melee, strikes first, interrupt to say a few will really be boned by these guys. Hell they will be good at stopping "fall back and shoot/charge" strats which is also huge if they don't kill a unit.

Overall I am pretty impressed with them, their rules could have been a lot worse. I think they are nice as they are not auto-include but do compete well against Legionaries and maybe Chosen for CC blender units. I think with their OC down to 1 they may stand to be a little cheaper to compete with the Legionaries better on a pure competitive basis, but for friendly or club games I think they work.

 xeen wrote:
Yea I think 10 as a damage dealing unit is probably the way to go. You can put a lord in there and +1 to him with the hammer is pretty cool, especially if it is war master's gift. I would probably load them out with the CC weapons and chainswords, then bring one Plasma gun as well, and forego the heavy weapon. My thoughts are you get them into charge range, fire the plasma gun/pistol to try to get a wound on the enemy to trigger the +1 to hit, then charge and hit them hard with the unit and probably a lord. With stealth and any detachment with a advance and charge strat you might be able to save points on a rhino for them as the -1 will help mitigate damage as they move up the field, and then advance and charge for speed.

Also the standard that stops strats in engagement range is going to be really nasty against some armies. Armies that rely on fight on death, AoC for protection in melee, strikes first, interrupt to say a few will really be boned by these guys. Hell they will be good at stopping "fall back and shoot/charge" strats which is also huge if they don't kill a unit.

Overall I am pretty impressed with them, their rules could have been a lot worse. I think they are nice as they are not auto-include but do compete well against Legionaries and maybe Chosen for CC blender units. I think with their OC down to 1 they may stand to be a little cheaper to compete with the Legionaries better on a pure competitive basis, but for friendly or club games I think they work.

Stealth doesn't work with an attached character.

Rules wrote:If every model in a unit has this ability, then each time a ranged attack is made against it, subtract 1 from that attack’s Hit roll.

Hi all,

With the change in points I've been running a new list. I dropped the Guard contingent, because the points opened new avenues.


Veterans of the Long War

Cypher

Abaddon the Despoiler

Obliterators (x2)

Chaos Terminators (x10)

Legionnaires (x5)

Accursed Cultists (x8)

Chaos Cultists (x10)

Chaos Bikes (x3)

Warp Talons (x5)

Havocs (x5)

Chaos Predator Destructor

Chaos Vindicator

Forgefiend


Allies

Nurglings (x3)


Rather than write a long waffling account of micro interactions, I thought I'd highlight five unique CSM plays and units that the list exemplifies.

1) Abaddon. I'd never used him because the cost was too prohibitive, but for fun I dropped the Sorcerer in Terminator Armour and the Helbrute and added him. What I found was quite interesting. The best way, I think, to envision Abaddon is as a Turn 1 source of indirect. What this means is that he hides behind a ruin wall, with a unit of Terminators and gives rerolls to a Vindicator, Havocs, Cypher or some other units that pop out on Turn 1. With the rerolls and particularly Overwatch being boosted thusly by Abaddon, he more or less pays for spending a turn out of action. On Turn 2 he and the unit he's with move out to engage and the cool thing with the Terminators is that they natively have rerolls, so do the same things (Overwatch trick etc.), while Abaddon does the reroll pact ability to preserve the other units, as part of the big push. The problem with Chosen by comparison, is that they turn Abaddon into a heat seeking one-shot missile, whereas the Terminators make him more of the prolonged trading game buffing piece that I think he excels at, before the final charge, which finishes everything off. Also, with the reactive move and fights first, this death star unit can be quite tricky to deal with, when it does commit.

2) Obliterators. I already talked about how great Obliterators are in Veterans. But they pair very well with the above Abaddon castle tactic, because with Focus of Hatred they can operate separately from him and really dial up the early game indirect, if you put them on the table, or can Rapid Ingress or some such, without needing Abaddon. I thought I'd put it in context that the damage output of Oblits on the go-turn can potentially be as much as the dedicated indirect of other armies across an entire game, if they have rerolls, pacts, ignore cover etc. With the reactive move they can be tricky to counter, when you do move them out.

3) Warp Talons. Everybody loved these before and at the lowered points I think they are great again. Pair them with a Cultist unit or Legionnaires, kill a unit with them, take them off the table let the Cultists or Legionnaires score, rinse repeat. Put them on the table and they will scare cheap, scoring chaff off objectives all game.

4) Cypher. Still amazing. With reactive move, he really feels busted and can support the Terminator death star, do actions, score, has surprising damage output and creates pressure in the center with his command point tax.

5) Accursed Cultists. Before the points increase, people used them as a kind of elite infantry horde unit, where the Howling Horde was just gravy that meant you could only shoot them once, or so before getting tagged. Now, I think they work better as a smaller pressure unit: opponent knows they need to remove them in a single volley, or they will tag objectives, so all of sudden they need to shoot them with bigger things that would prefer to shoot Terminators, Vindicators or Obliterators. Also, with scout and reactive move, they enable you to apply that pressure early game, which is the key difference maker and combines well with the above pressure plays (Abaddon, Oblits etc.).

Best,
Samii.

So you're saying Accursed Cultists have become a Distraction Carnifex?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
So you're saying Accursed Cultists have become a Distraction Carnifex?

Distraction Carnifex suggests more of an implied threat. With the smaller AC unit, your opponent literally gets one chance to shoot them, before they tag something on an objective, so they mechanically need to divert more resources than an equivalent unit would require.

Assault armies care less about this, because they can just charge them. But then the Scout move allows you to position them for a counter charge.

Small AC units are great because they allow you to control the action around objectives reactively, rather than in your turn.

Best,
Samii.

I like the list and the concept Samii, I also like how is is not spam-tastic. I also think Veterans is a good detachment that has a lot of potential, it is just that the Raiders and Pact Bound are easier to use, so people gravitate toward those (unless your that guy who is crushing it with the cultist lists). I am looking forward to any action reports with the list

 xeen wrote:
I like the list and the concept Samii, I also like how is is not spam-tastic. I also think Veterans is a good detachment that has a lot of potential, it is just that the Raiders and Pact Bound are easier to use, so people gravitate toward those (unless your that guy who is crushing it with the cultist lists). I am looking forward to any action reports with the list

So, I always felt that Raiders was a bit of a trap. See Raiders leans into perceived CSM strengths, but does nothing for the weaknesses. The all or nothing, full send approach. 10th is a trading game, where small units get put on objectives to draw bigger things out. This plays against the Raiders archetype, in my opinion.

It basically turns CSM into World Eaters, without the anchor of Angron and the crazy mobility. And one of the strengths of CSM in 10th is shooting, they shoot just as well as vanilla Marines and they have the best Overwatch in the game.

I remember in 9th getting hammered by my mates Dark Angels when they weren't meta, because they could do the reroll hits and explodes on Overwatch. Later I saw an Australian guy doing this at tournaments and he did quite well. The lethality of units got toned down a lot from 9th to 10th, but CSM kept something like this in pacts and reroll hits. The Veterans detachment basically lets you do this, with any unit. Overwatch is important in 10th, because you can't use reactive strats against it.

I also think that reactive move in Veterans is just incredibly good. It can benefit Cypher, where he becomes almost untouchable, Terminators, Obliterators and Accursed Cultists.

Now, I've always thought Pactbound were good and I played them a lot, initially. But Veterans, Cult and possibly Deceptors are the real tech detachments, in my opinion and I think there are tools in there that makes CSM more than just a one trick pony.

Best,
Samii.

 xeen wrote:
I am looking forward to any action reports with the list

I can relay a quick anecdote. I always test against a Gladius TAC marine list, as it has the most counter play. I posted this a while back: Redemptors, Gladiator Lancer, Fire Discipline Lieutenant with Hellblasters in a Repulsor, Infiltrators, Scouts etc. I played against an iteration of this with some Eradicators in a Repulsor, also.

Turn 1, I move a Vindicator out behind a ruin with LOS on the center objective and pop rerolls on Abaddon, who is hidden with Terminators. On the right flank I move an AC unit within range of an objective and to challenge some Infiltrators and bikes head out to claim the left flank objective. Obliterators are hidden in a ruin on the right flank. The Vindicator is able to destroy the Lancer, I discard an objective, to get me another command point. Cypher puts a toe on the center objective.

In the marine turn I reactively move Cypher away from the Eradicators and Bladeguard, which are played aggressively to counter the Vindicator. Hellblasters also move out to shoot the Vindicator and AC unit and threaten Overwatch against anything moving onto the center objective. Vindicator is the Oath target. I Overwatch with the Vindicator and kill four Eradicators. I pop AoC on the Vindicator. now, return shooting drops the Vindicator and the AC unit to two big dudes (one on a wound). The AC unit then tags the Infiltrators and kill most of them.

So, at this point its basically checkmate. The Oblits will pick up the remaining Hellblasters (a few died from overcharging), then the Terminators jump to the second floor, Havocs pop out on the other side of the ruin, with the Predator and Forgefiend and shoot almost everything off the center (Redemptor, last of the Eradicators, Bladeguard etc.). Bikes kill the Scouts on the left hand side.

The real difference maker here was the Vindicator Overwatch, Cypher and the AC unit making plays in the opponent's turn.

Best,
Samii.

So for the Bile detachment I was thinking something like this could be fun.......

Bile (1965 Points)

Chaos Space Marines
Soulforged Warpack
Strike Force (2000 Points)

CHARACTERS

Chaos Lord (90 Points)
• 1x Daemon hammer
• 1x Plasma pistol

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (80 Points)
• Warlord
• 1x Combi-bolter
• 1x Force weapon
• 1x Infernal Gaze

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (50 Points)
• 1x Cultist Champion
◦ 1x Autopistol
◦ 1x Brutal assault weapon
• 9x Chaos Cultist
◦ 9x Autopistol
◦ 9x Brutal assault weapon

Legionaries (90 Points)
• 1x Aspiring Champion
◦ 1x Bolt pistol
◦ 1x Chaos Icon
◦ 1x Close combat weapon
◦ 1x Heavy melee weapon
• 4x Legionary
◦ 4x Astartes chainsword
◦ 4x Bolt pistol
◦ 4x Close combat weapon

OTHER DATASHEETS

Chaos Terminator Squad (360 Points)
• 1x Terminator Champion
◦ 1x Accursed weapon
◦ 1x Combi-bolter
• 9x Chaos Terminator
◦ 6x Accursed weapon
◦ 1x Chainfist
◦ 8x Combi-bolter
◦ 2x Power fist
◦ 1x Reaper autocannon

Chosen (250 Points)
• 1x Chosen Champion
◦ 1x Accursed weapon
◦ 1x Bolt pistol
◦ 1x Boltgun
• 9x Chosen
◦ 9x Accursed weapon
◦ 9x Bolt pistol
◦ 9x Boltgun

Havocs (125 Points)
• 1x Havoc Champion
◦ 1x Astartes chainsword
◦ 1x Flamer
• 4x Havoc
◦ 4x Close combat weapon
◦ 2x Havoc lascannon
◦ 2x Havoc missile launcher

Obliterators (160 Points)
• 2x Obliterator
◦ 2x Crushing fists
◦ 2x Fleshmetal guns

Obliterators (160 Points)
• 2x Obliterator
◦ 2x Crushing fists
◦ 2x Fleshmetal guns

Possessed (120 Points)
• 1x Possessed Champion
◦ 1x Hideous mutations
• 4x Possessed
◦ 4x Hideous mutations

Possessed (120 Points)
• 1x Possessed Champion
◦ 1x Hideous mutations
• 4x Possessed
◦ 4x Hideous mutations

Raptors (90 Points)
• 1x Raptor Champion
◦ 1x Astartes chainsword
◦ 1x Bolt pistol
• 4x Raptor
◦ 4x Astartes chainsword
◦ 4x Bolt pistol

Warp Talons (270 Points)
• 1x Warp Talon Champion
◦ 1x Warp claws
• 9x Warp Talon
◦ 9x Warp claws

The remaining 35 points go to the beat stick character enhancement.

The idea is to always take the plus 2" movement, then flood the mid-board with all the troops with the oblits and havocs being fire support. Everything starts on the board except the raptors which are action monkeys. The warp talons with a 14" move plus the advance and charge strat have a good chance to turn 1 charge, and will definitely turn 1 charge any scout units etc that start in the mid-board, then jump into the air. The chosen lead by the Lord will just beat on things, and the terminators will be tough to deal with. While I don't think Possessed are all that good, two small five man moving at 11" will be very disruptive even if not too kill-y. I think vehicle heavy lists might be a problem for this, and probably Custodes, but it should do well against everything else. This is also not the most efficient list I think could be built this way, this is just what I have in my collection. I think 3 x 5 chosen with a lord in each would be killer in this list, and the terminators might want a lord instead of the sorcerer. Also 10 man legionaries squads could be good with the regeneration start as you get d3 of those back.

Thoughts on this or how anyone else would use the bile detachment?

Note: While I think this detachment is cool and fluffy , I really wish we got a Psychic detachment similar to the space marine one. Chaos has a lot more psychic units so that would have really been interesting.

Looks like a fun list!
Will be great for a Narative Event!

I absolutely LOVE the idea of the Obliterators
since we'd now have the strat to bring back "1 model"...

I'm probably going to try the +1 T to see how that does...

are the break points from T5 to T6 for termies, and T7 to T8 for Obliterators,
good overall?
I'm bad at mathhammer