Lathe Biosas wrote:
How tough can CSM really be? Didn't they lose a bunch of their forces to a single Tau Firewarrior?

Ah, but the only time gameplay = lore is when the games are called Space Marine or Boltgun

To be fair, he's mostly packing Imperial weaponry

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
How tough can CSM really be? Didn't they lose a bunch of their forces to a single Tau Firewarrior?

Ah, but the only time gameplay = lore is when the games are called Space Marine or Boltgun

It was also a Black Library novel.

It was? Huh

 Bobthehero wrote:
It was? Huh

Simon Spurrier wrote it.

It's not just BL novels. I recently watched Iron within and was quite... irritated about the presentation of the Dark Eldar there. They're a serious thread to the Guardsmen but also die repeatedly, but when the Space Marines come in they all die like stupid chaff, only the Archon can put up a fight. I'm usually one to say aspect warriors, immortals, nobz, Crisis suite and whatever are on par with Space Marines... but more and more I get the impression that's not current lore. Space Marines are the Avengers and everyone else is mooks. Only in DoW Trailers Space Marines die as they should

A lot of animations pit Space Marines against things that should be far more threatening to them than what is portrayed, I don't know if it stems from the ''Astartes'' short, but at least there the Marines fought cultists.

Lets not overlook that most animations are VERY short snippets and favour whichever side they are told behind. If they focus on the Admech then a single robot and priest can take on whole swarms of orks; if its a single battleship of nurgle worshippers they can wipe out a whole Imperial bastion.


So yeah the marine focused ones focus on marines and the marines win and because its not got 60-120-a whole season to play out the marines often win pretty easily etc...



Honestly I think some of it is just people hyper-fixating on marines winning. Which is compounded when a LOT of the lore (esp BL) is focused on the Imperial faction.

Both the 9th and 10th edition trailer animations have a lot of Space Marines die.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
How tough can CSM really be? Didn't they lose a bunch of their forces to a single Tau Firewarrior?

Are CSM immortal? Do they get reincarnated/new bodies in the Warp after they die? Or does Chaos need to keep corrupting new/different servants of The Emperor/The False God to keep going?

Who the feth cares? Do people really look at the novels and the game in the same breath? Holy gak...my writing critique group would obliterate the authors of the GW universe with simple, basic criticism. The writing is literal gak, in most cases. The only reason it gets published is GW has its own publishing company. Many tournament players don't put more than three colors on their army, just so they can meet the minimum. GW writers aren't much different.

Money is what matters now, not hobby. That died in what? 1999? Pick a year. You'll be right.

Outside sm novels, 40k books not that bad.

 Kagetora wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
How tough can CSM really be? Didn't they lose a bunch of their forces to a single Tau Firewarrior?

Are CSM immortal? Do they get reincarnated/new bodies in the Warp after they die? Or does Chaos need to keep corrupting new/different servants of The Emperor/The False God to keep going?

Space Marines are generally considered to be 'soft' immortal in the sense that they do not die of old age and appear to never grow infirm with age. It is unclear if this is because they really don't get to this state or if because no Space Marine has ever lived long enough to reach that state.

Loyalist Space Marines either die in battle before death by age would incur or are stuck in stasis most of the time (Bjorn the Fell-Handed). Traitor Marines spend long stretches in the Warp, especially the Eye of Terror, and do not age while there. This extends whatever their natural lifespan would be.

Regardless, all Chaos Space Marine who have not ascended to Daemon Prince are mortal in they die from outside forces and stay dead. This is where the entire 40K setting becomes a bit silly. None of the numbers presented make sense. Given how few Space Marines (Loyalist and Chaos) there are, they die far too quickly for them to still exist given their replenishment rate.

I should do a new playthough of SM2 and count the bodies. I remember noticing the first time though the sheer numbers of SM corpses scattered around. Like “the chapter may not recover” levels of death.

But they do liven up the place and set the scene that the bad guys are dangerous.

(while a trio of guys murders hundreds of mooks and a hefty number of serious foes)

 Kagetora wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
How tough can CSM really be? Didn't they lose a bunch of their forces to a single Tau Firewarrior?

Who the feth cares? Do people really look at the novels and the game in the same breath? Holy gak...my writing critique group would obliterate the authors of the GW universe with simple, basic criticism. The writing is literal gak, in most cases. The only reason it gets published is GW has its own publishing company. Many tournament players don't put more than three colors on their army, just so they can meet the minimum. GW writers aren't much different.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Space Marines aren't biological immortal.
They age, very slowly compared to a human, but they age.

Even Custodes and Primarchs age, although even slower.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
How tough can CSM really be? Didn't they lose a bunch of their forces to a single Tau Firewarrior?

I forget but didn't one of the last chancers novels involve a hellgun and blasting thru a few cms? maybe it was just cultists. Either way, the hellgun could become the standard armament for the guard if we wanted hero guard and I wouldn't be opposed to it.

Hellguns mentioned!

They're a bit all over the place, really, in the Scion codex Hellguns/Hotshot Lasguns are described as being able to pierce Ceramite, however, any lore that predate that had no basis but the TT to tell how they were at penetrating armor.

It varies from author to author and books to book, unsurpisingly, but I am in the camp that belive they can pierce PA reliably.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Hellguns mentioned!

They're a bit all over the place, really, in the Scion codex Hellguns/Hotshot Lasguns are described as being able to pierce Ceramite, however, any lore that predate that had no basis but the TT to tell how they were at penetrating armor.

It varies from author to author and books to book, unsurpisingly, but I am in the camp that belive they can pierce PA reliably.

Hellguns back in the mythical time of 4th and 5th edition where str 3, AP3. No stronger than a typical lasgun but bored right through Space Marine armor.

I miss those days.

Edit: my spellchecker has gone insane.

Ceramite is ceramic ablative layer over plasteel and adamantium. Lasgun/hellgun still laser. Which virtually burning hole in their target. But burning ceramic is not the best choice cause it's mostly heat resistant material. So they shouldn't go through PA.

I like how power relations shown in Cain novels. Cause if anyone kill someone they do it because they have advantage. Someone helps, etc. and main point is everyone die
Sm, csm, Tyranids, guards.

The weird thing about hellguns is the weird relationship between AP and strength.

I mean, they can bore through AP reliably but cannot wound the Marine inside reliably? Is Marine skin hellgun resistant?

And then you have autocannons that can wound Marines reliably but cannot penetrate the AP reliably.

 Tyran wrote:
The weird thing about hellguns is the weird relationship between AP and strength.

I mean, they can bore through AP reliably but cannot wound the Marine inside reliably? Is Marine skin hellgun resistant?

And then you have autocannons that can wound Marines reliably but cannot penetrate the AP reliably.

I assumed the Hellgun was a tiny beam that could cut through anything like a surgical laser... but wasn't big enough to do any real damage to a Space Marine.

It require less luck/accuracy than a lasbolt to kill a Marine outright with it, but you still need precise shots that will destroy vital organs if you want to kill with one shot, unlike say a plasma or melta gun that will just destroy the head/torso

Heh, in books we seen lasgun/longlas/hellgun cut off limbs, and do some solid holes. But that a space Marines, who can stand even with liver ripped off, without one heart and half head cutted... Well, at least if it sm novel.

You know I've been playing SM2 and if you compare it to other FPSs it isn't particularly over-the-top. It's more realistic than some special forces guy killing 100 soldiers in CoD.

But (almost) no one is under the delusion that CoD represents the "real power level" of a special forces operator, and that a realistic adversarial wargame ought to reflect that. So it's more a problem with some of the fans than the media itself.

Boltgun is the most realistic Space Marine shooter.

Sadly it's been overshadowed by pretty graphics.

ccs wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:


But I'm always baffled about how people with that sort of idea see the game and how they enjoy it that way, it's totally offputting to me. And I don't get how people who see the setting this way expect people who play the NPC factions to actually be having fun having their guys be mown down by the main characters in all the fiction and all their games?
.

Fiction =/= how the game plays.

My opponents can like that thier SMs/GK/Custodes are THE premier badasses of the galaxy all day long in the lore.
But if they meet me for an actual game? They'll quickly learn that, wether I'm fielding Guard/non-SM Imperial/Chaos/or some Xenos, I'm not playing the "NPCs" they read about in their beloved novels....

As for whatever gak GW & the BL crank out that makes it seem non-SM forces are nothing more than hapless NPCs?
Doesn't affect me. Because I play the game & know there's all manner of perfectly viable forces.

Well that's partly the point of the thread. Fans who don't understand this will whine and complain that their marines didn't wipe your army in the way they 'should' and the rules get progressively crappier to keep them happier.

Every faction. Has elites that fulfill the marine role and can go toe to toe, but the way they're going the only anti marine unit will be other marines to keep marine fiction fans happy.

The game will be devolved into one where anything not a marine just has to win by attrition against them, no other Strategy will work to preserve the.marine power fantasy. No one can challenge their dick length except another marine.

 Tyran wrote:
The weird thing about hellguns is the weird relationship between AP and strength.

I mean, they can bore through AP reliably but cannot wound the Marine inside reliably? Is Marine skin hellgun resistant?

And then you have autocannons that can wound Marines reliably but cannot penetrate the AP reliably.

In fairness, the difference between 'Toughness' and 'Armour' has always been rather wonky.

Unless the targets skin is actually bullet resistant, everything should be wounded automatically if its hit. The wounds capacity would reflect how likely that hit is to take you out of Action.

Toughness is basically a form of natural armour you take before you make a save.

Nothing except Orks and nids should have 'toughness' really.

Space Marines have bones laces with cermite from the food paste they eat. And the older they are the more cermite in bones they have. Not counting the parts of the bones replaced with metal bits of course. The black carapace is also part of a subdermal armour. And it is not just marines. Imperial assasins have it too. And only GW knows how custodes function, because their lore keeps getting changed.

Also pure mechanics wise. Both chaos and imperial knights should have "toughness" too.

Karol wrote:
Space Marines have bones laces with cermite from the food paste they eat. And the older they are the more cermite in bones they have. Not counting the parts of the bones replaced with metal bits of course. The black carapace is also part of a subdermal armour. And it is not just marines. Imperial assasins have it too. And only GW knows how custodes function, because their lore keeps getting changed.

But if anything that just reinforces the point - if Space Marines are basically walking armour, then what meaningful distinction is their between their armour and their "toughness"?

 Da Boss wrote:
I think it's a shame there's not more editorial control exercised on the book writers writing crazy stuff for Marines which is then taken as 100% inviolable truth by fans.

That's not the problem. The protagonists will always have plot armor. The problem is not that Sergeant Pasanius has plot armor and super skills. The problem is the people who can't tell the difference between Sergeant Pasanius, and that Assault Marine there on the left who just took a lascannon to what used to be his face. There are two kinds of characters in these kinds of bookst. The ones who get names, and the ones who die easy.

The argument that the game is secondary to the books is bonkers to me - it was a game first, it remains a game, and the game is much more consistent through it's existence than the novels.

The rot has set in at the game level by now as well though, so I'm on a hiding to nothing complaining about it.

I don't understand the appeal of this powerscaling stuff at all. I always thought the Ork "Biggest Ork is the Leader" stuff was poking fun at this sort of thing, but the Imperium works on this logic now too and no one seems to think it's ridiculous.

Its both ridiculous and not. Its human nature. Ever play an MMO? Is the raid target 60 feet tall (relative to your six foot tall avatar)? Ever see a raid target that was and stayed halfling size? How often? Its human nature.

Breton wrote:

Its both ridiculous and not. Its human nature. Ever play an MMO? Is the raid target 60 feet tall (relative to your six foot tall avatar)? Ever see a raid target that was and stayed halfling size? How often? Its human nature.

MMO bosses need to be tall so they are visible under the VFX of 40 people and their nameplates.

They also need to be tall/strong for the immersion of being a challenge. A frail Gnome mage being pummeled would look silly and unbelievable.

I don't think this is comparable to the scale creep in a miniature game.

 vipoid wrote:

But if anything that just reinforces the point - if Space Marines are basically walking armour, then what meaningful distinction is their between their armour and their "toughness"?

I think its initially supposed to be more of a strength test and less focused on the toughness aspect. An old aspect of the game's RPG roots where you'd roll to see if you passed your accuracy check, then roll to see if you pass your strength test and then your opponent gets to react to save themselves with a dodge or shield or passive armor or something. The names are a little clunky; particularly in how "armor save" works, but that's the original reason that's mostly just stuck around because it mechanically worked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

Regardless, all Chaos Space Marine who have not ascended to Daemon Prince are mortal in they die from outside forces and stay dead. This is where the entire 40K setting becomes a bit silly. None of the numbers presented make sense. Given how few Space Marines (Loyalist and Chaos) there are, they die far too quickly for them to still exist given their replenishment rate.

This is extremely common from any sort of sci fi. The actual scale of space is impossible to really comprehend in a way that results if anything logistically viable. You just end up making up giant nonsense numbers and then learning that you have a fraction of a percent of what's actually needed for a cosmic scale.

Karol wrote:
Space Marines have bones laces with cermite from the food paste they eat. And the older they are the more cermite in bones they have. Not counting the parts of the bones replaced with metal bits of course. The black carapace is also part of a subdermal armour. And it is not just marines. Imperial assasins have it too. And only GW knows how custodes function, because their lore keeps getting changed.

Also pure mechanics wise. Both chaos and imperial knights should have "toughness" too.

None of those from my recollection have their bones on the outside where the bullet would hit before entering their bodies...

Resilient bones equals more wounds to resist death, it doesn't stop bullets getting into you.

 a_typical_hero wrote:

They also need to be tall/strong for the immersion of being a challenge.

I don't think this is comparable to the scale creep in a miniature game.

You just made the comparison.

Nah.

A single model in 40k has no need to be big and impressive to pose a threat, because you are not sending a single Wraith Knight against 40 Grots.

MMOs can't do smaller enemies because of their reliance to split players into Tanks, DPS and Healers. You can't have 40 people each fighting their personal enemy, because it doesn't work mechanically.

In 40k it is army against army. An Autarch is sufficiently deadly for human sizes models without the need to make him bigger than a Marine, just because he is more powerful.

In Horus Heresy it's the bigger the base, the more badass you are.

Garro. Big Base.

Valdor. Huge frigging base.

 a_typical_hero wrote:
Nah.

A single model in 40k has no need to be big

Need? No. Happens anyway? Definitely.