184
Post by: The Happy Anarchist
I'm wondeirng how they manage to get 10+ Lascannon shots on the Falcon army?
Don't you ever use terrain? I mean, it will be a dustup, but Falcons are annoying bastards because it takes an entire armies worth of firepower to bring it down, and they are fast skimmers that can use terrain to keep the number of lascannons firing at it to a respectable 6-7, which is usually enough to make it not fire. At which point, it moves again to set up for next turns shots or deployments.
1795
Post by: keezus
Anyone experienced at using eldar or fighting often against eldar will be satisfied at making it not fire. Which baring terrible rolls (Note: I am a walking bad luck zone when it comes to die rolling) - should be easy to achieve. kwade> Fireprism will probably be good in lists that dont' need transports. Waverserpents, as far as I'm concerned are dead weight that should be spent on buying more bodies for scoring units, since most Eldar scoring units, other than tanks, are terrible at "not dying". Maybe: at 1850 Farseer on Bike x2 w/ runes, singing spear, fortune
9x Guardian Jetbikes w/ 3 shurikencannon + mounted spear-lock x2
Max Shining Spears x3
Fireprism x3 Now you've got STUPIDLY durable units. 8 scoring units, everything moves 12-24. Hard hiting HTH units that are clump up vs spears in HTH, only to have them withdraw and eat S9 AP2 templates. W00t.
1795
Post by: keezus
I just priced this army on the Canadian Web Store. I shall -NOT- be building it:
$16 ea Farseer x2
$12 ea Warlock x2
$18 ea Bike x16
$25 ea Shuricannon Bike x6
$50 ea Shining Spear Box x5
$55 ea Fireprism x3
----------------------------------
$909 Cdn - Sub Total
----------------------------------
$72.72 - Dalton's Tax
$54.54 - Stephen's Tax
----------------------------------
$1036.26 Cdn - Grand Total
This army costs: $758.54 Cdn after tax and shipping from a well known 30% Canadian discounter. ;-) Much as I'm impressed with GW for making me contemplate an army made SOLEY of models that I don't already own for Eldar... (which is a feat in itself - since I own lots of pretty much everything else - enough models to do the old 3rd edition: Karandra's All Scoripon Army and Fugean's Furious Fire Festival as extreme examples)... But heck! That's a lot of Candian Pesos. Yikes!
383
Post by: bigchris1313
WG in Falcons, huh? Interesting idea. With a minimum squad size of 3, I'd hope you can take a Warlock, which would go hand-in-hand with the present rules that allow them 5+1 to a Serpent.
So 3 WG in a Falcon + Warlock with Singing Spear (assuming the spear is AP-) against AV 13 & 14:
AV 13
SS Glancing: 1 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 1/3
WC Glancing: 3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/3
WC Penetrating: 3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/3
AV 14
SS Glancing: 1 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9
WC Glancing: 3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/3
WC Penetrating: 3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/3
6 FD in a Falcon, no exarch, within 6" against AV 13 & 14:
AV 13
FG Penetrating: 6 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 10/3
AV 14
FG Penetrating: 6 * 2/3 * 5/9 = 20/9
6 FD in a Falcon, no exarch, within 12" but not within 6" against AV 13 & 14:
AV 13
FG Penetrating: 6 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 4/3
AV 14
FG Penetrating: 6 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 2/3
The verdict is in. In terms of pure killiness, the FD wipe the floor with the WG. Even if only half the FD are within 6," that will still out-perform the WG. Against AV 14, if all the FD are outside 6" then the WG win. But that's it. To make matters worse, the WG cost 133 pts (according to rumors and assuming WG stay at 35 pts), while the FD only cost 90 pts. Even if they drop WG to 30 pts (I'd like to see them even lower), that's still 118 pts. But I haven't heard anything about a price drop for WG, while I have heard about drops for both FD and Reapers, so I'm expecting nothing. And, for good measure, I'm fond of conceal, but at this point, they're already so damned expensive I don't know that I can rationalize it. The sad thing is that if you get your FD within 6", it's not even a contest. The FD annihiliate the tank while the WG just suck in comparison.
Also, it's interesting to note that if the Falcon crashes, 2.25 FD die (33.75 pts) compared to 1 WG (35 pts). Even though there really isn't a pt difference, it might hurt to watch your T6 get wounded as easily as T3.
But there are a few words to be said about WG. The range seems nice at first, but unless you're up against AV 14, the FD are still going to win out. Even at 12" against a Predator's front armor, the FD win by a solid margin. So the range isn't really worth it. In terms of infantry killing, the FD's have a good shot at insta-killing a SM character, but what SM character without a mantle runs around by himself anyway? Exactly. So that's not really a question. Yeah, FD will also cut through 1k sons, but what else with T4 and 2+ wounds is instakillable these days anyway? Basically, WG have durability. That's it. That's all they really have. Conceal would help, but with only 3 models I can't rationalize the investment. But let's see what this newfound "durability" is worth, if anything considering how short the range will be, working our way down the weaponry:
WG - Lascannon/ML: 1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 5/9 (19.4 pts)
FD - Lascannon/ML: 1 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 5/9 (8.3 pts)
WG - Plasma Gun (rapid-fire): 2 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 8/9 (31.11 pts)
FD - Plasma Gun (rapid-fire): 2 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 10/9 (16.7 pts)
WG - AssCan: (4 * 1/6) + (4 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/3) = 1 (35 pts)
FD - AssCan: (4 * 1/6 ) + (4 * 1/2 * 5/6) = 7/3 (35 pts)
WG - Heavy Bolter: 3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 (7.8 pts)
FD - Heavy Bolter: 3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 5/3 (25 pts)
WG - Bolter (rapid-fire): 2 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 2/27 (2.6 pts)
FD - Bolter (rapid-fire): 2 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 4/9 (6.7 pts)
Ouch. Anti-tank weapons do a number on WG while not hurting FD half as badly. But I think we already knew that. Against the AssCan the two break even, and it isn't until we see the Heavy Bolter and Bolter that the WG finally pull ahead. I don't like those numbers. Because FD already trump WG against vehicles (because even with the boost to the WC the FG was boosted like hell as well) , breaking even at the AssCan isn't good enough. WG still are too expensive to stand up against heavy weapons fire in comparison to FD. Sure, the WG can take the heavy bolters, to to a lesser extent bolters, way better than the FD. But that's just not enough. That Las/Plas tac squad 18" away does approximately 1 casualty to each squad. Unfortunately for the WG that's more than twice as painful as it is for the FD. Battlecannons will also completely ruin your day as they do now.
Verdict: WG still suck, as demonstrated here in Falcons. The WC may have recieved a boost, but changing the Fusion gun to S8 is too much for the WC to overcome. Furthermore, the increased T on the WG still isn't enough to give them the staying power they need to justify the pt cost. As they are right now, WG are nothing more than Troops for Iyanden armies and Monolith killers.
Oh, Dev Team, all they needed was an 18" range.
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Post by: Lazarus
When someone shoots my falcon with 10+ lascannons I rejoice becasue that means the rest of my army is still probably ok.  Lazarus.
64
Post by: Longshot
T4 2 wound things that you can instakill:
Thousand Sons
Crisis Suits
Obliterators
Broadside Battlesuits
Ork nobz? Not sure about that. who runs a squad of nobz anyway?
Necrons kind of count because now any T4 squad without an orb gets vaped by firedragons.
383
Post by: bigchris1313
Battlesuits. Good call. But it won't really matter. No Tau player worth half a damn lets his suits get anywhere near FDs.
64
Post by: Longshot
How does this sound for tourney-worthy:
~1850
Autarch on a jetbike with laser lance and hellmask or whatever
farseer with fortune, singing spear, jetbike
3 x 6 fire dragons
2 x buncha jetbikes with a singing spearlok on a jetbike or something and shuriken cannons
3 x buncha warpspiders (for anti-horde, and durability - jump packs and 3+ saves with the possible fortune is pretty tough)
3 x superfalcons
Gotta see the codex to be sure of course, but it sounds decent. No idea why we'd take shining spears at 35pts with 4+ saves over 20-something pt warp spiders with 3+ saves.
59
Post by: Banesword
Becuse the S.Spears have 3+/(3+) saves? And str 6(or is it 5?) power weapons?
But I still dont know if 175 pts is worth it for 15 str 5 attacks... EDIT: 8 S6 I6 and 3 S8 I7 it seems.
1249
Post by: Therion-
I lost faith in that Dragon Falcon army simply because it's nerfed in escalation, meaning nearly half of all European tournament games. Well tbh I never had much faith in that army in the first place.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
I always take a Nob Squad as Bodyguard for my Warboss
64
Post by: Longshot
How is it nerfed in escalation except anything except whirlwind armies? Hide the FDs, roll +1 for reserves because of the autarch, and then pick the dragons up as the falcons come on.
If 50% of your games are escalation that definitely changes things though, unless you can rig it so the dragons are literally the only thing on in escalation.
Down here, we're about 25% escalation.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Posted By bigchris1313 on 09/08/2006 11:51 PM
Battlesuits. Good call. But it won't really matter. No Tau player worth half a damn lets his suits get anywhere near FDs.
You must have some really good Tau players in your areas.
They can avoid attacks which can strike from 26" away?
That's pretty talented, overall.
Especially considering the whole terrain is not as much of a factor aspect of the Falcon as a transport.
149
Post by: torgoch
Not so much distance, but angles. Tau suits might lurk only 24" from the Falcon, but that 12" + 2" distance won't often get around the terrain to enable the Dragons to fire.
184
Post by: The Happy Anarchist
That may be true in some cases, but with 3 Falcons and a 24" move to prepare, if needed, it won't be more than 2 turns before they can get the angles and the range.
Suits can only move 12" total, which can be a very limiting factor when it comes to facing armies that ignore terrain like that.
64
Post by: Longshot
There is zero way you are hiding crisis suits from falcons on any tournament board for more than a turn. Unless your area habitually covers the board in 25% level 3 area terrain or similar large los blocking pieces. Crisis suits are fairly conspicuous.
45
Post by: Kikkoman
for every army that's not MEQ's, isn't this new eldar list pretty strong?
2776
Post by: Reecius
Sorry if these rumors have already been covered, but a friend of mine is an affiliated with GW, and has a copy of the eldar codex.
This may not be totally true, but i dont see why he would lie to me.
He told me briefly that:
Rangers are pretty bad arse, they become AP 1 on a to hit roll of a 5 or 6 (I am fairly sure he said 5 or 6, it was a bit of a rushed conversation)
Also, he said Harelquins were pretty damn hard.
In 7, base 2 attacks, rending, 5+ invulnerable, fleet, move through cover like open terrain.
I didnt have time to ask more, but he said the codex was very nice and that the eldar had some nice and nasty new units. I wish i could have gotten more from him but i literally had time for only a few questions.
Hope that adds to the rumor mill and that it isnt old news.
184
Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Posted By Kikkoman on 09/11/2006 2:52 PM
for every army that's not MEQ's, isn't this new eldar list pretty strong?
Well, if tailored properly, with alot of scatter lasers and such, I don't see any feasable way they could lose.
The DA shuriken storm actually kills about 10 boyz by itself, without fortune or doom.
Shining Spears wouldn't be quite as good, though still decently effective. Warp Spiders murderate nonMEQ armies. Fire Dragons are probably the big losers against nonMEQ if they don't have heavy vehicle support. Of course, they can pretty reliably take down light support to. Just likely not quite worth the points vs horde.
Overall though, the new codex should do very well against nonMEQ.
50
Post by: deitpike
pathfinders are 5 or 6, rangers are just 6
and he's pretty close on the harlequins, but that is with a wargear upgrade, abilities etc.
2776
Post by: Reecius
there could be errors in translation as well =)
but i love the harly models and would really enjoy seeing them as a brutal HtH unit like they used to be in 2nd ed.
and it sounds like rangers and pathfinders will make a great troop choice vs MEQ armies. a sit and shoot squad with 36" range which has a 33% chance of becoming ap 1? that is brutal, heck that is even decent against armor 10 vehicles. For a 9 man squad, you will have 3 ap 1 shots per round that wound on 4's. that is pretty dang good.
383
Post by: bigchris1313
Unfortunately, Pathfinders are looking to be 24 pts apeice, unless Dietpike says otherwise. And 9 will run you 214 pts. Regardless of how many you take, that's 24 pts each for T3 and +2 to cover saves. And according to the rumors, the cover saves are going to be the stealth USR, so they're not going to be dead, as opposed to rocking a 5+ cover, when they aren't in terrain. Sure, you can throw them into terrain, and they'll get a 3+ just in the woods. That's nice, but if you have anything else that needs cover (think Reapers--even with a 3+, they're still 35 pts each), you need to weigh the benefits of cover for the rangers against the cover for something else. Although I don't see anything outside Reapers and Rangers/Pathfinds vying for cover in the new book, it's still worth a thought.
Furthermore, what if the cover you need (so that your 24 pt models actually get a save) is in a poor firing lane or close to enemy lines? Pathfinders are just like Guardians in assault, and you know how they fight. You want your models 30+" out, but at the same time, you need cover in order to give them a save--what isn't AP5 or better anyway?
And the gun: it really isn't all that good. We're talking .25 MEQ kills per round. For 24 pts, not going to happen. Not when a Reaper can do .89 wounds per round for 35 pts. In theory, pinning should be why you take them, but with .25 MEQ casualties and all the SM commanders out there, you're never going going to pin anything.
Move through cover is in theory a nice bonus, but with heavy weapons, you're never going to move.
For 24 pts, it just doesn't make sense, even as a troop choice. Unfortunately, with the new Guardians, I'm trying to figure out if either of them are worth taking. And DAs aren't really doing it for me right now either.
50
Post by: deitpike
 I do not say otherwise 
2776
Post by: Reecius
For 24 pts, it just doesn't make sense, even as a troop choice. Unfortunately, with the new Guardians, I'm trying to figure out if either of them are worth taking. And DAs aren't really doing it for me right now either. hahaha, no offense, but maybe you should play another army? (although i do agree, if 24 points is accurate, that is a fairly expensive unit, although, to cheaply fill up troops choice slots, may not be so bad = 2 units of 5) Im not trying to be rude, but I hear nothing but overwhelming negativivty about the new eldar. Before passing judgement too harshley, perhaps wait till you get the codex and play the new army. Number crunching is all well and good, but theory hammer only goes so far, you still need to play the game. If it came purely down to theoreticals, then why play at all? I understand that you want your favorite army to be competetive and as "fair" as it can be in a game this complex, but surely the future is not quite so grim for our favorite pointy eared space elves. Number crunchers were saying they couldnt win in the last version of the codex, and they were taking GT wins. I still believe that a good general can take any list in the game and be highly competetive with it, not to mention that the models are fantastic. But, like I said, not trying to be rude at all, just my two cents.
1795
Post by: keezus
To all the guys saying that "good generals" can make the best of any codex, please head on over to the "Tactics" forum and post your ideas. I'm all out of them. We get outshot in the shooting game, most of our assault troops will never make it to assault. So much for being a specialist army... most of the units seem like lame ducks. I am well aware that the Eldar army is a finesse "combined arms" list, but I have no ideas on how to do it. I am also well aware that Eldar are a fragile army, hence the importance of combined arms to mitigate this weakness... but I can not find any consistent ways to ensure this. Math-hammer is a way to find the "expected" survivability or "effectiveness" of a certain unit given the distribution of die rolls. It is what tells you that Doom boosted DA is statistcally worse than Doom boosted Guardian Jetbikes. Given enough games played, the results will approximate the normal curve. So... those complaining about the complainers... please put your money where your mouth is and post how we're supposed to use this list. If you can't, then please stay out of this discussion, because the people complaining are also the people that have thousands of dollars invested into this army!
383
Post by: bigchris1313
Reecius, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I play Iyanden, so I was getting by with 2 units of 5 WG each, and that was a kick in the nuts enough. Now that WG as troops will need to be 10 strong, I just don't think that the idea is viable (even if I have the models). So I need to find a new troop choice that won't cost nearly 400 pts each with the required Warlock and Conceal. DA certainly aren't going to do it, and as much as I don't want to include Guardians, I don't think I'm going to have much of a choice.
I've forgotten about Jetbikes though. I'm not quite sure what I'd actually do with them, but at least they're an option now.
149
Post by: torgoch
Number crunchers were saying they couldnt win in the last version of the codex, and they were taking GT wins.
Codex Eldar didn't win anything. Codex Craftworld won an awful lot, as its fairly simple maths to work out that a large Seer Council was extremely difficult to kill and 5-man Guardian squads with a starcannon were underpointed.
2776
Post by: Reecius
hahaha, geez. I should have anticipated that.
However, if you play only to be competetive and win, and you see no way to mathematically win with the Eldar under the new rules (which, untill someone has a codex in hand, is all still speculation) then sell your army, recoup as much of your investment as possible and buy what you consider to be a more comeptetive list.
If you dont want to do so , because you like the Eldar fluff and models, then play with them for fun, and not in competetive environments where you surely will only become frustrated with their sub par performance, if they do in fact turn out to be an inherantly inferior army.
I know that sounds mean, im not trying to start a flame war, but that is reality. Complaining about it wont improve the situation. You can either try to make the best of it, get into what you consider to be a more powerful army, or somehow try to influence the game development. And, if you are truly fed up, walk away from it.
I can understand where you are coming from, i too have a lot of money invested in 40K, and i am fully aware of the usefulness of number crunching in determining the probability of success or failure of a given unit. However, throwing a tantrum about the fact that a given unit wont be the most ubber powerful unit in the game, or even moderately powerful, wont change anything.
At the very least you can attempt to be positive about it and take Mauleed's POV, when he stated that he would make the new eldar competetive or die trying. Im not syaing it will be easy or perhaps even possible, but that is a better attitude than rolling over and playing dead at the mere rumor of what the new codex will contain.
But again, that is just my POV, take it and throw it in the trash can if you dont like it. I just choose to take a more positive outlook on things, and i too plan on playing eldar when they come out and i will do everything i can to make a tough, competetive list. If it falls short of that, oh well, i'm sure i will still have fun in the attempt. And I hope that you do as well, that is what the game is for afterall, having fun.
2776
Post by: Reecius
Reecius, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I play Iyanden, so I was getting by with 2 units of 5 WG each, and that was a kick in the nuts enough. Now that WG as troops will need to be 10 strong, I just don't think that the idea is viable (even if I have the models). So I need to find a new troop choice that won't cost nearly 400 pts each with the required Warlock and Conceal That is very true, and I agree, the 18" range would have made a world of difference on these guys. Staying in the fluff of iyanden's last codex incarnation may not be viable now for tourny play. You may have to step a little outside of the fluff to make a competetive list. But remaining strictly within a given theme often is very limiting, i used to run a themed list with my marine army that was cool and fluffy, but far too narrow in scope. I had to break my self imposed theme in order to devlop a tougher list, but oh well, usually cant have your cake and eat it too.
3150
Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> keezus on 9/12/2006 8:04:00 AM</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> To all the guys saying that "good generals" can make the best of any codex, please head on over to the "Tactics" forum and post your ideas. I'm all out of them. We get outshot in the shooting game, most of our assault troops will never make it to assault. So much for being a specialist army... most of the units seem like lame ducks.
While I'll agree that our current codex needs some work to make all of it's units playable it is still certainly capable of winning games as it is. In order to help someone win more games there is a wealth of information that needs to be gathered...not simply posting some ideas for tactics. If you would like some links to articles already written by players all over the world I could provide them for you.
Our new codex will give us even more options. For regular play and RTT tournaments and the like I see no problems. For no holds barred gladiator event types I'll reserve judgement until I actually see all of the rules... Math-hammer is a way to find the "expected" survivability or "effectiveness" of a certain unit given the distribution of die rolls. It is what tells you that Doom boosted DA is statistcally worse than Doom boosted Guardian Jetbikes. Given enough games played, the results will approximate the normal curve. I agree for the most part but there are those that take it to an extreme and can't seem to understand that this game does not opperate in a vaccumn. People often like to do maths that simulate fire on 10 man tactical units of space marines...I'd like to know where these legendary units are being used....everywhere I play they are 6 strong at the max. Unit vs. unit is nice in theory but isn't really applied that way. If we were alternating fire it might but since were not I'll be using multiple units against single units. So... those complaining about the complainers... please put your money where your mouth is and post how we're supposed to use this list. If you can't, then please stay out of this discussion, because the people complaining are also the people that have thousands of dollars invested into this army! There is no single magical formula for how to use a list as diversified as ours. As I said previously I could link you to several articles that may help your game on a basic level. There are soo many factors that determine your success or lack of it. Let me know if you are interested. Lazarus.
1795
Post by: keezus
Lazarus: Oh for crying out loud, its not about winning. Its about viable choices. Do any of your vaunted tactica make good cases for taking pre-codex shining spears, vibrocannons or swooping hawks on a regular basis? I highly doubt it, because they are terrible choices. Any monkey can load up on starcannon and falcons. If you're playing a vanilla list and kicking ass with pre-codex V4 mounted howling banshees, foot dire avengers, rangers, guardians with scatterlaser, war walkers, shadow-weavers and swooping hawks... either your opponents are less-than-the-best, or you've got some super secret tech that the rest of us pedestrian generals just don't grasp. GW changed a bunch of stuff this time round and claims that everything is worth taking again. If I'm not seeing the whole picture and everything IS worth taking again... please enlighten me. If you have V4 codex rumour suggestions, please post them in Tactics.
161
Post by: syr8766
I've got to say that, as much as I was excited about the Eldar Codex, I really am facing it with mounting trepedation. That despite the fact that I have enough Jetbikes, Fire Dragons, Vypers, Reapers, Wraithlords and Falcons that I don't have to buy a single model for the new rules.
I'm with Keezus, torgoch and the rest: Eldar, as it seems to be presented by the various rumors, doesn't come across as 'combined arms' (a la the Tau) but as a mishmash of different units that have little-to-no synergy, only now with sparing anti-MEq capability.
The problem with the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex was just that: lots and lots of units that had little synergy with each other and were often pants unless they got some kind of buff from the Codex: Craftworlds book (e.g. Vyper army of doom, 3rd ed. mounted Banshee army of Doom, Alaitoc Ranger Chart-doominess, Seer-Council BS-4 Guardian Doomtacularity, etc.).
Eldar are my first love and the army that got me into this game back in 2nd ed. I'm really hoping the codex will prove to be better than it's sounding, but I'm skeptical, and fearful that my first 40k army will also be my last.
184
Post by: The Happy Anarchist
If all you see is negativity you haven't been looking close enough. There is negativity and optimism in the thread, you are just looking at what annoys you.
My take on it, is the way that Eldar will win is by mobility alone. They can't stand up and trade shots, but mechanized eldar should make a strong showing.
I will tell you why.
As near as I see it, Jetbikes are the most efficient troops choice. All the others are not quite worth it, but the Jetbikes, particularly with the 3-1 Shuricannon for less points should be able to form a nice solid core, zooming 24" objective taking helping with that.
WS got a boost, seemingly going down a bit in points, as well as being able to take Holofields and Spirit Stones, making them much tougher. They are decently potent with firepower with either TL Scatter Lasers or Bright Lances. Starcannons probably got nerfed a bit to heavily and won't likely be viable. I'd have to run the numbers on that.
Because of that, larger than 6 man Fire Dragons may be viable, being transported in WS, which makes them better in Escalation, better at taking down hard targets (particularly Terminators and MCs) and better at holding objectives in a pinch.
This frees up Fire Prisms to be used, if they are as good as they look. They are near Hammerhead level without combined shot, except a great deal tougher. They may actually be quite effective. Of course, Falcons are also amazing.
Fast Attack gives you the filled with potential Shining Spears. Hit & Run plus S6 Power weapons on the charge? Also with a point decrease. Toss a Farseer in there and they can have rerollable 3+ inv when they turbo boost. Lots of potential there.
Warp Spiders are another potentially devestating unit. They can put down a very large anti-skimmer and light vehicle threat, as well as a heavy dose of anti-infantry power.
Everything in the above list except the Warp Spiders can move 24" in one turn. There are several very cabable objective grabbing units, most of which can be extremely tough to budge.
Of course, on the downside, all the close combat aspects are very nearly worthless, the Avatar got a lot cooler, but still won't be used, the Autarch will likely be ditched for an extra Farseer (if that is possible) and Wraithlords & Dark Reapers both got boosts that are negated by competing with the faster, tougher, more potent Falcons & Fire Prisms.
50
Post by: deitpike
hehehehe
the thread was quite positive / informative until about page 12
people were excited, asking questions, posting rumors, and not playing Math-Hammer
2776
Post by: Reecius
If all you see is negativity you haven't been looking close enough. There is negativity and optimism in the thread, you are just looking at what annoys you. That, i admit, may very well be the case. Seer-Council BS-4 Guardian Doomtacularity That, I must say, is very funny. I agree with your points for the most part, and I know what it is like to be attached to an army. If suddenly I felt that with the next codex, Marines would get very badly nerfed (as if that would ever, ever happen) I would most likely be pissed, especially with the copius amount of Marine gear i have. I just hate to see people give up on (or appear to give up on) the hobby that you know we all love, or get down in the dumps over their army before at least attempting to make it work when they have the codex in their hands and their minis on the board. I have always found that giving something a serious effort in the face of adversity results in a more rewarding experiance. But that is just me, and like i said, ignore my posts if they are offensive to you, i really dont mean to be so. I also love the Eldar and think they are an integral part of the 40K universe. I hope that people find ways to be very competetive with the list, i know i will try, despite any neigh sayers. I may fail, i may succeed, but i will deffinately have fun trying all of the options. but on topic: does anyone know if they will be putting out more auturach variant wargear options? Or will we need to convert our own?
806
Post by: Toreador
I sure miss the good old days, when every new codex that came out, the only discussion was how broken and too good it was. Those were the days...
In most games there are units that aren't viable in a competitive setting.
I am looking forward to the new book. I use eldar in the local games and RTT around here, which is fairly competitive, and I use Hawks and Banshees a lot. (though the hawks are mainly an exarch delivery system) I don't do bad in the games and tend to enjoy myself, so any boosts to the Codex are fine by me. But, I don't see them as horrible as some on here do.
Your mileage may vary.
1783
Post by: The Crawling Chaos
I think there may be a more complex balancing in place here. The eldar are getting a bunch of cool new models. And eldar have always had the potential to look cooler than just about any other army out there. The falcon is probably my favorite GW mini ever. And there are so many surfaces to do cool designs on and the fluff really lends itself to that. So in tournaments eldar have the potential to do way better than any MEq in painting scores. It's only fair that they won't get as high battle scores. It's balance.
1783
Post by: The Crawling Chaos
So if everybody thinks that guardian jetbikes are the best troop choice, and shining spears are viable now, are Saim Han (Sam Hain? Whatever.) going to be the Eldar army of choice in 4th edition?
118
Post by: Schepp himself
When we put aside planing to cheese-hammering or fairy hells angeling (aka: mounted eldar) the enemy to death, I would say we have a codex which killed the über parts of it pretty effectively (the infamous craftworld parts) and buffed every other, only rarely used part of the list.
Sure, some will call them useless, but we have to admit that there doesn't seem to be a unit in the codex, let's call this particular unit "mister shining spear".
Even though some units are overshadowed by others, they aren't anywhere near "mister shining spear". They are maybe not the best of the bet but still somewhat useable. Which Codex can accopmlish that (other than space marine perhaps)?
I for one will use a combined force of shooting eldar firebase and a small battalion of fast, reacting eldar. Maybe that's not what will win me Tourneys, but I feel that it will be quite a dangerous force. I don't think the old Codex could do that.
We'll see...I'm happy with all the rumours. (ok, except that Guardians have to have a Weapon Platform)
Greets
Schepp himself
118
Post by: Schepp himself
Do you think its coincedence that they featured the army as the official army paint job, crawling chaos?
Greets
Schepp himself
3150
Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> keezus </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Oh for crying out loud, its not about winning. Its about viable choices. Viable choices in the pursuit of wining more like it. Our new codex will have far more viable choices for us. Take heart, the codex will soon be here. Do any of your vaunted tactica make good cases for taking pre-codex shining spears, vibrocannons or swooping hawks on a regular basis? I'm sure there are indeed tactica that cover all of these units. However, what does pre-codex units have to do with our new codex being competitive? The roles of the units will change. Pre-codex the spears were often a 3 pack brightlance team for some peek-a-boo type shooting. The new codex makes the viable at what they were supposed to be doing. More people will field them now then ever before. The hawks will again become a true harrasment unit with the added ability to hunt vehicles (fitting if you ask me). Old rules pretty much saw them as an EDS. Vibrocannons....ok, ya got me there. (lol) Any monkey can load up on starcannon and falcons. Just as any moneky can use assault cannons & fear ot the darkness (lol). Don't fault a codex for what it's good at while complaining about what it's not good at. If you're playing a vanilla list and kicking ass with pre-codex V4 mounted howling banshees, foot dire avengers, rangers, guardians with scatterlaser, war walkers, shadow-weavers and swooping hawks... either your opponents are less-than-the-best, or you've got some super secret tech that the rest of us pedestrian generals just don't grasp. Obviously some of those units in that configuration won't be used...until the new dex comes out. I'm not playing vanilla but I regularly use a prism and a sqaud of mounted avengers. Bothe considered by many (including myself) to be sub optimal units. I still do very well with them even in GT type environments. The general will have something to do with how an army plays. GW changed a bunch of stuff this time round and claims that everything is worth taking again. If I'm not seeing the whole picture and everything IS worth taking again... please enlighten me. If you have V4 codex rumour suggestions, please post them in Tactics. I'm playing a mech biel tan list right now. The up coming changes if they are to be believed seem to indicate a boost in list performance. (for my build) My falcons get tougher (along with the serpents). The prism gets better. My dire avengers get way better. My 2 units of dragons get better. My scorpions get a small nerf but can be easily replaced with hawks or spiders...the price of the serpent I no longer need affords room for other things. I had an extra seer on a bike to guide the prism...I won't need that anymore and instead can take the autarch which will help in escalation missions. Jet bikes becoming troops w/ a massive point reduction means I'll likely take 2 units and leave the vypers at home. My seer gets loads better and will have a chance to nerf fear of the darkness? The loss of the ranger disruption table sucks for Alaitoc but is a boon for me...it's one of the main reasons I'm mecanized to begin with. That just covers my present list. What will suck is looking at the rest of the cool stuff and trying to figure out how to get it into there. Also, when I offered links to tactica etc. it was not a dig at your generalship abilities. It was a sincere offer of help. Even if you only learn one thing out of it you will still know one more thing that before you read it....that makes you that much better doesn't it? I've played this game for nearly 20 years and I still learn things about it. Be positive people. Lazarus.
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Post by: torgoch
Well, from a tournament point of view I don't really mind... One less army I have to worry about with my Tau builds is good.
But that really is a saddening fact.
I think Syr and Keezus have expressed my views better than I can. I want an Eldar army where I can get out my Banshees, Scorpions, and Harlequins and my opponent doesn't start to giggle... is that such an unreasonable hope?
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Post by: Lazarus
Mine certainly don't giggle when they see mine....obviously not fielding harlequins at the moment but that may soon change. Lazarus.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Why wouldn't they? They are only remotely worth it if you take the kiss, and then you are paying alot of points for models that cannot infiltrate, deep strike or get in a transport.
How are they going to get to the enemy without being shot to pieces? They only have a 5+ save. Sure, they always get it, but each one you fail will lose 22 points worth of model?
How will they keep up with the rest of the army?
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Post by: CaptKaruthors
Well taking Veil of Tears will help them quite a bit. You have to Nightfight test to shoot them. Besides they can move faster than most eldar units. Keep them in cover and they will excel. They move through it without penalty and can fleet. I can't wait to try them out. I still maintain that an IG style of Eldar army will make a resurgence.
Capt K
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Post by: winterman
Yeah and Veil of Tears is rumored to be an even smaller range then night fighting rules (tbc though). Still they look like a decent unit to me. If rumors are true each one with kiss will kill 1 MEQ on the charge (furious charge, rending, WS5, 4 attacks on the charge). Even with the Shadow seer they'll rival genestealers for kill per point efficiency and with a inv save standard they'll gimp the ubiquitous hidden powerfist. Add in all their abilities (furious charge, ignore terrain rolls, hit n run, plasma nades from seer) and I think they are a very viable unit. Main problem I see with harlies is they are rumored to be 0-1 so you can't build a list around them.
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Post by: Lazarus
They are simply going to own in city fight type terrain. I wish they had a webway type strike option for them... Lazarus.
118
Post by: Schepp himself
I think we have to see the Harlies as a optional addition to the Eldar Codex. Gw (or was it Jes) stated that they wanted to test ground with the Harlies, how the community accept them ect. I don't expect them to be the best bet in every situation, only in some circumstances, so a lot of Eldar player will test them out but don't go overboard on them.
I'm looking forward to them, the Death Jester looks very cool and i guess the others will have some style to them. (maybe similar to the ones hown in DOW: Dark Crusade)
Greets
Schepp himself
2776
Post by: Reecius
Reece,
they get an energy field, but no holofield. That's left for falcons, prisms, and vypers . . .walkers too
That is a quote directly from an e-mail from friend of mine who has the eldar codex. Take it for what its worth.
2776
Post by: Reecius
in regards to wave serpants.
2839
Post by: Indecisive
Is the Ulthwe Strike force still usable after the codex comes out? just curiosity at this point.
64
Post by: Longshot
I wonder how a squad of warwalkers with holofields would do 
526
Post by: kwade
Posted By Indecisive on 09/15/2006 7:43 PM Is the Ulthwe Strike force still usable after the codex comes out? just curiosity at this point.
I've seen rumors that there will be an optional USF force in the 'dex, but nothing concrete at this point.
731
Post by: Davian
The simplest way to do it would be to add the Webway Portal as a piece of wargear, but everything I've heard has suggested that it's not. Sort of a pity, but oh well.
50
Post by: deitpike
no USF in the codex
I wish the holofield was for the walkers!!
526
Post by: kwade
Oh well.
45
Post by: Kikkoman
isn't it just sort of odd that the "unstoppable Best Armored transport of the 41st century" Wave Serpent is less durable than the falcon?
I feel it'd be like... marine bikers being more durable than terminators.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
isn't the Rhino the best armored transport the empire has to offer? then why is chimera better in pretty much any way?
118
Post by: Schepp himself
uuuhhh...  .... time for a chewbacca defense, anyone?  Greets Schepp himself
45
Post by: Kikkoman
so what did the 2nd ed wave serpent field do?
161
Post by: syr8766
Bonus AV to the front, IIRC.
3150
Post by: Lazarus
Latest roundup: <table style="TABLE-LAYOUT: fixed" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" width="100%"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top" width="85%" height="100%"> Updated version 5.3 As promised this is my compiled list, so enjoy Got my hands on the Codex, it is laid out like a WHF army codex, the first 20 pages of it was all fluff, with the pages in it as seen in the WD, the next 38 pages of the Codex has a page for each of the units with their Wargear and special abilities as was shone in WD, then 10 pages on the points for the Squads/upgrades/options. And the last 16 pages was a how to paint the army section. In all 84 pages. HQ: Avatar: Cost @155pts. Current stats with a change of +1Int +1A BS5 3+/4++ save. All Eldar within 12” will gain Fearless. Wailing Doom ranged attack (Melta gun stats). Immune to Flamer an Melta type weapons. Farseer: They will be T3 and cost @55pts. Ghosthelm, Shuriken pistol & Witchblade and Rune Armor as standard EQ (Ghosthelm will give a 3+ save against POW, but loses its effects on Daemons) he may upgrade Witchblade to a Singing Spear. He may take a Retinue of 3-10 Warlocks. Fortune (same as now) and Guide(same as now) flip flop costs, Mind war(same as now) but costs more, Eldritchstorm costs less ( same as now and 2d6+3 Pen vs. Vehicles), Doom costs between Fortune and Guide (cast on an enemy non vehicle unit, Rng 24" no Los, May re-roll to wound, effects both shooting and CC lasts till the start of your next turn). They can purchase Physic Wargear from the Armory, and this includes Jetbike. They may Fleet of Foot. States in the Codex that a Farseer is a single HQ choice. May take a WS transport. Warlocks: Cost @25pts, a Warlock may be upgraded to a Spiritseer @+6pts, all the regular Warlock powers are still available. May Fleet of Foot. Warlocks will now be both a Retinue for the Farseers and as a troop add-on character (this does not take a Warlock from the Farseer Retinue). They will have standard EQ of Rune Armor, Witchblade & Pistol but may upgrade Weapons to Singing Spear @ +3 pts(12" S-x AP6 A1 when thrown, wounds on a 2+), and may purchase a Jetbike if in a Jetbike unit. Conceal (same as now) costs less, Destructor(same as now) costs less, Embolden(same as now) costs less, Enhance(same as now) costs same. Autarch: Cost @70pts + gear. May Fleet of Foot. He will be an IC he will have a list of Aspect Wargear that he may purchase from. He may choose from any basic Aspect gear but none of the Exarch only gear, and he will not have access to Exarch Powers (but may join an Aspect squad that has an Exarch and gain that Squads ability), standard EQ Shuriken Pistol, Plasma & Haywire grenades and force shield, plus whatever Wargear choice he takes from the armory. His stats are as a Exarch with WS+1 BS+1 S3 T3 W+2 A+1 I6 LD+1 3+/ 4++ save. Path of Command- Master Strategist -He gives a strategy rating of 4, and +1 to reserves rolls, where he is on or off the table. The Autarch will not have the option to take a Retinue. The Autarch Aspect Wargear options will be like this: Movement Helm 1 HW 2 HW SH Wings Banshee mask Laser Lance (if on Jetbike) Avenger Catapult WS Jumppack Mana blaster Scorpion Chainsword Fusion Gun Eldar Jet Bike Power Weapon Reaper Launcher Or on foot Las Blaster Death Spinner Troops: Dire Avengers: Troop choice, squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to an Exarch. cost same. May Fleet of Foot. Avenger Catapult 18” Range. No grenade option. Exarch powers: Blade Storm (Squad: +1 shot, but cannot fire next turn), Defend (any attacking squad -1A to min of 1 in each combat phase). Exarch optional weapons combinations: Power weapon & Shimmershield (gives squad a 5+ Inv. save while in CC), Diresword & Shuriken Pistol, or 2 Forearm mounted Avenger catapults(Assault 4 not TL). May take a WS transport. Rangers: Troop choice, squad size 5-10, costs same. No grenade option, but 5+armor. May Fleet of Foot. They will have Infiltrate/move through cover/stealth USR. They will be able to upgrade to Pathfinders @+5pt cost, which will give them Scout USR ability, ignore difficult terrain, an on a to hit roll of 5+ =AP1, and to increase their Cover save to +2. Guardians: Troop choice. Squad size 10-20 (21 including Warlock), same costs, May Fleet of Foot, you must take a heavy weapon platform the two crewmembers come from the squad (can only take one weapon platform); you may exchange their catapults for Pistol & CCW to make Storm Guardians and then have the option for two special weapons (FusionGun or Flamer) upgrades (no grenade options). You can have a Warlock join the unit. HW platform does not count as taking up model slots in transports. May take an WS transport if 12 models or less. Guardian Jetbike: Troop choice, reduced to 22 pts, squad size 3-12, no stat change, no grenade options. You can have a Warlock join the unit @45pts. Limited to 1 Shuriken Cannon per 3 and will have a upgrade cost of 10pts. Transport Waveserpent: Cost 90. Still has Energy fields as now, and we will have to pay for the type of weapon turret you want costs a little more, may upgrade TL catapults @10pts to Cannon. Is able to hold 12 models. May not carry Swooping Hawks, Warp spiders, Harlequins, Jet bikes or Monstrous Creatures, otherwise same option of Troop. BS3. Elites: (All Aspect warriors Exarch upgrade @12pts) Wraithguard: Elite choice (may take as Troop choice if squad of 10 with Spiritseer), Squad size 3-10, same costs, A squad of 5 with an Spiritseer may be mounted in a WS. They can have a Warlock/Spiritseer join the squad. They are affected by Wraithsight (A Warlock/Farseer may negate Wraithsight if within 6", or a Spiritseer if within 12" . Will be T6 now no other changes to stats, Wraith cannon will wound on a 2+ AP2, instant death on a roll of 6, and vs. vehicles it will glance on a 3-4 and penetrate on a 5-6. No grenade option. Striking Scorpions: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. cost same. Squad is S3 but Scorpion Chainsword gives +1 to Str. Manablasters are changing to +1A, gaining Plasma Grenades as standard EQ. Exarch powers: Stalker(Squad: move through cover USR), Shadow Strike(Squad Infiltrate USR). Exarch weapons: Scorpion Chainsword & Pistol, Biting Blade (2HW gives +1S and for each successful to hit you add +1S to your to wound no word yet if just a CCW or if PW) & pistol, Scorpion Claw (Str6) & Scorpion Chainsword, Chainsabres (paired Chainswords with fist mounted Shuriken pistols, re-roll to hits and to wound). May take a WS transport. Fire Dragons: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. cost 1 pt less. May Fleet of Foot. Fusion Guns (Melta gun stats) & Melta bombs. May Fleet of Foot. Exarch powers Tank Hunter (squad: Tank Hunter USR), Crack Shot (Exarch only). Exarch Weapons: Fusion Gun, Firepike (18" Melta gun), Dragons Breath (Heavy Flamer). May take a WS Transport. Howling Banshees: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. Same cost. May Fleet of Foot. Banshee mask will give Int10 and will negate opponents cover and grenade abilities in the first round of combat. No plasma grenade option. Exarch power: Acrobatics (counter charge USR), War Shout (Opponents take a moral test if failed opponents become WS1 for that Assault phase). Exarch weapons: Power Weapon & Pistol, Executioner & pistol, Mirror Blades (paired power weapons +2A). Triskele &Pistol (web of skulls type weapon 12" S3 AP2 A3). May take a WS transport. Harlequins: Elite choice. WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I6 Ld9 Sv 5++ and 18 pts in units size 5-10, May Fleet of Foot, Shuriken pistol &CCW as standard EQ, they will have an ability called Dance of Death(Furious Charge USR, Hit and Run USR). Harlequins still have flip belts which allow them to ignore difficult terrain tests. Holo-fields give 5++save. They may choose to upgrade CC weapons to the Harlequin Kiss @ +4pts per model (rending CC weapon) and 2 squad members can upgrade their pistols to Fusion pistol(6" Melta gun) @10pts each. They can upgrade one Squad member to a Shadow seer @ 30pts, Shadow seer will have “Veil of Tears” Physic power (use night fight rules but at 2d6X2 Rng) he will have Hallucinogen/Plasma grenades and allows the squad that he’s with to gain them also. Upgrade one member to a Troupe Master @ 20pts (Power Weapon or Harlequin Kiss free upgrade and +1A +1LD). Upgrade one member to a Death Jester @ +10pts, The Death Jester exchanges his weapons for a Shreiker Cannon (same stats as Shuriken Cannon and gains pinning). Rumor that they are metal models not plastic. Fast Attack: Shining Spears: Fast Attack choice may upgrade one to be an Exarch. Unit size 3-5. They are reducing cost to 35pts. Exarch Powers: Withdraw (hit and run USR), Expert Rider USR. They are changing the Laser Lance, it can make an 6" S6 AP4 A1/Lance shot and then count as a S6 Power Weapons on the charge, they then revert to S3 CCW in the following rounds of CC. No plasma grenade option. Exarch may upgrade TL Catapults to a Shuriken Cannon. Exarch weapons: Laser Lance, Power weapon, or Star Lance a S8 version of the Laser Lance. Warp Spiders: Fast Attack choice, Squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to be an Exarch. same costs. No plasma grenade option. Exarch Powers Surprise Assault (always deep strike like terminators) Withdraw (hit and run USR). Death Spinner (12" S6 AP- A2). Exarch weapon options: Powerblades, Twin Death Spinner (Assault4). Spinneret Rifle (18" S6 AP1 A1 Pinning). Swooping Hawks: Fast Attack choice, Squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to be an Exarch. same costs. They have their normal grenades plus gaining Haywire Grenades as standard EQ. They can still drop pie plate when deep striking. Exarch powers: Intercept (gives ability to hit Vehicles in CC on a 4+ even against skimmers), and Skyleap (in your movement phase you may choose to leave the table and go into reserves even if you where in CC, opponent may only 3" consolidate move, then next turn you roll your reserve roll to bring them back in the next movement phase). Exarch weapons Lasblaster, power weapon & pistol, Hawks talon (24" S5 AP5 A3), Sunrifle (24" S3 AP5 A6 pinning). Vyper: Reduction in cost 45pts and is counted as being open topped still. Will still have TL catapults (may upgrade to Shuriken Cannon @10pts), but will have to pay for the heavy weapons turret option and vehicle upgrades. BS3. Heavy Support: Support Weapons: 1-3 weapons platforms per choice D-cannons – same cost, will now be a G24” small blast versions of the Wraith cannon. It will affect Vehicles the same even if any part of the template touches them now. Instant kill on a to wound roll of 6. Vibro Cannons – cost less, You are allowed to Roll to hit for each cannon, then pick which cannon you are firing from, then draw a 36" straight line and any units under that line are hit with d6 hits (S4+1 for each additional cannon that hits), vehicles are hit with one automatic glancing hit. Shadow Weaver – cost less, is to be reduced in cost. No changes otherwise. May add a Warlock to the unit. Dark Reapers: Heavy Support choice may upgrade one of them to be an Exarch. Squad size 3-5, -2pts in cost and gain back 3+ armor save. Not much else for the squad. No plasma grenade. Exarch weapons: Reaperlauncher, Shuriken Cannon, Missile Launcher, Tempest Launcher (G36" S4 AP3 H2 blast). Exarch powers(self only): Crack Shot and Fast Shot as they are now. May take a WS transport. Wraith Lord: Heavy Support only. Cost more + weapons. You will have 2 light weapons(Flamer/catapult) and 1to2 heavy weapons, requirement of 1 HW still weapons cost a little more (if you take two of the same type of weapon it will count TL). Str10 standard (monstrous creature). Wraithsword upgrade(is a type of spirit weapon) which can re-roll to hits in CC, he may take this in place of taking the second HW choice. He will be affected by Wraithsight, he will need to be within 6" of a Warlock/Farseer or 12" of a Spiritseer to act normal. Falcon: cost same as prism +weapon. Pulse Laser is changing from H1d3 shots to H2 (no more random amount of shot weapons). BS3. May carry 6 models, states that it may not carry a Wraithguard unit. Fire Prism: cost same. Changing the Fire Prism weapon to be a duel propose weapon, Anti-tank mode Rng 60” S9 AP2 Small Blast, Anti-infantry mode S5 AP4 Large Blast. If you take a second Fire Prism and its in LOS of the other you can decide to boost the first one, Anti-tank mode Rng 60” S10 AP1 Small blast Twin linked, Anti-infantry mode S6 AP3 large blast twin linked. It is said that you can add a third Prism to make the Anti-Infantry mode S7 AP2 LrgBlast TL. BS4 as standard now. War walkers: Heavy Support, costs same + weapons. No force field, is count as being closed topped. They are gaining scout USR ability. There was no rule that if two of same kind weapon thats it is counted as TL. Spirit stone is only vehicle upgrade. Still BS3. Heavy Weapons: (this is the listed price for the vehicle HW not the Platforms) Shuriken Cannon: as it is now but A3 5pts Scatter Laser: as it is now but H4 15pts Eldar Missile Launcher: Same stat line as it is 25pts Bright Lance: as it is now 30pts Starcannon: as it is now but H2 25pts Pulse Laser: as it is now but H2 Fire Prism: As in its Vehicle description Special Characters: (that are in the book, may take as a HQ option) Eldrad Ulthran – Farseer of Ulthwe @210pts. T+1. All the Farseer Wargear and 3++ Rune Armor. Will have all 5 Farseer Powers & Power Divination -Will be able to redeploy d3+1 units before the start of the game once setup is completed (Not just move them 6" now). Staff Still has the same effect as before. Prince Yrial – Autarch of Iyandan @155pts, +1I +1A. Force Field, Plasma Grenade. Special Weapon: Cursed spear of Twighlight (Singing spear type Power weapon, has an effect in last turn, making him have to make a Inv save or die), Eye of Wrath (S6 AP3 Lrg Blast centered from character, use once per game). Phoenix Lords – They range between 190-230pts, their stats are WS+1 BS+2 A+1 AS2+. Ability Disciples- (just their new name for Fearless that can bestow on a squad they join. They may only give their abilities to a squad of their Aspect shrine.) PL's protected from insta-kill by a special rule "Eternal Warrior". May Fleet of Foot. Karandras- Weapons -Scorpion Bite (Manablasters +2A), Scorpion Chainsword, Scorpion Claw, Plasma Grenades Powers: Stalker, Shadow Strike, Stealth USR(can effect squad) Maugan Ra- Weapons- Maugetar (36" S6 AP5 A4 Rending/Pinning) Powers: Crack Shot, Fast Shot, Acute Senses USR(can effect squad) Jain Zar- Banshee Mask Weapons- Executioner, Silent Death(S5 Ap2 A3) Powers: Acrobatics, Warshout, Furious Charge USR(self only) Baharroth- Swooping Hawk wings, Grenade packs, Plasma & haywire Grenades, Hawks Talon, Power Weapon Powers: Skyleap, Intercept, Hit an Run USR(can effect squad) Fuegan- Weapons- Firepike, Fire Axe( Str+ 2d6 Armor Pen/not PW), Melta Bombs Powers: Tank Hunter, Crack Shot, Feel no Pain USR Asurmen- Shuriken Gauntlets, Sword of Asur(Diresword re-roll to hits) Powers: Blade Storm, Defend, Battle Fate( 4++ save) Wargear & Upgrades: Physic Wargear: Rune of Warding: Costs a little more, will make an opponents physic roll 3d6 and total them together with any total 12+ causing an POW test to them this ability has no range limit. Spirit stone: reduced almost 1/2 the cost, abilities same as now Rune of Witnessing: costs more now, abilities same as now Vehicle Upgrades: Spirit Stone: same cost, is changing to same as Extra armor (reduces Crew stunned to shaken result) Vectored Engines: costs more, changing to make fast vehicles traveling more then 6" count as moving as 6" so that they just settle to the ground. Star Engines: costs more, will have a fixed distance of 12". Holo-field: costs more, stats will stay the same CTM is not in the new Codex. Scythes is not in Codex No new Vehicle upgrades This is all I'm allowed to give, the point costs I've been told not to post other then what others have allready posted.  </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="smalltext" valign="bottom" width="85%"> <table style="TABLE-LAYOUT: fixed" width="100%" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="smalltext" width="100%" colspan="2"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="smalltext" id="modified_1469629" valign="bottom">« Last Edit: Today at 09:08:51 AM by Tamashii </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
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Post by: Doctor Thunder
Is there any way to alter where units fit into the Force Organizational Chart? I want to do a Fire-Dragon Shrine army, and I heard a rumor that there was a way to get them as a troops choice. Can you confirm or deny that for me?
3150
Post by: Lazarus
Sorry, to the best of my knowledge fire dragons will remain an elite choice. Originally the rumour was that if you took 10 w/0 exarch they counted as troops. I belive they dropped that during playtesting. Obviously this hurts shrine armies but that's the way GW operates. On a good note: I noticed that the singing spear now has an AP value and is an assault weapon. It officially penetrates now and likely can be used after throwing. Lazarus.
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Post by: Schepp himself
Whoa thanks alot!
The Codex looks very (x2) nice, I agree with the designers that this is the best thing they ever produced.
The only thing that bugs me is that I have to take support weapons for guardians...I somehow dislike them.
Greets
Schepp himself
2776
Post by: Reecius
yeah, looks very good, i think that we will be seeing a lot more eldar players. and the auturach with a str 6, ap 3 pie plate? yowza! can he use it in HtH? does it affect allied targets?
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> Schepp himself </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> The only thing that bugs me is that I have to take support weapons for guardians...I somehow dislike them. True, but you can put that platform in a serpent now as well as the incresed capacity to 12 models. Drive up and shoot has never been more appealing. Lazarus.
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Post by: Doctor Thunder
Hey, thanks for clearing that up for me, Lazarus. I may not like the answer, but I do appreciate knowing for sure.
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Post by: hammerofulric
Weapon platforms in Wave serpents? That's it, I'm definitely doing mech eldar. Smaller army than mech tau, but with heavy weapon support, should do some damage.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> Doctor Thunder </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Hey, thanks for clearing that up for me, Lazarus. I may not like the answer, but I do appreciate knowing for sure. No problem. I know a few players (from the net) that use shrine armies and I do feel for them. They spent tons of time even converting their wraithlords into aspect types (for looks). Mech armies will certianly still be very viable. Lazarus.
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Post by: Lazarus
I'm personally excited about the Autarch's ability to have a strategy rating of 4 and adding +1 to reserves even when not on the table. That's pretty imnpressive if you ask me. Doom seers will be a great addition and may help to make up for less shots from the starcannon etc. Lazarus.
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Post by: Schepp himself
True, but you can put that platform in a serpent now as well as the incresed capacity to 12 models. Drive up and shoot has never been more appealing. True, but the image of advancing Guardian Militia was exactly my plan. Well I'll use them as Avengers instead. Seem to fit it quite well, luckily they are somewhat viable now.
I will make two kinds of army. One "Honor" Army with two Wraithlords (two long dead Autarchs) and amore defensive playing style, and one agressive with a higher mobile part (jetbikes and some sepents maybe).
Boy, do I look forward to this Codex!
Greets
Schepp himself
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Post by: keezus
Which vehicles may have holofields. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By Lazarus on 09/18/2006 8:57 AM Doom seers will be a great addition and may help to make up for less shots from the starcannon etc.
Although Doom will be nice because of the range, the lack of an LOS requirement, and the fact that everyone can use it against the target unit, at the end of the day, Eldar never had a problem with ranged weapon strength. It's always been the BS that's been lacking. I'd much rather re-roll a 4+ to hit on a Falcon than re-roll a 2+ to wound with a Starcannon. Now, in CC, that's another matter, what, with S3 all across the board, save the scorpions. Thanks for the update, BTW. You guys over at 40k online, the Tamashi fellow in particular, definitely have someone on the inside.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By keezus on 09/18/2006 10:19 AM
Which vehicles may have holofields. Inquiring minds want to know.
Reecius, who has apparently seen the dex, says that Serpents cannot take them. And that's all that matters. And for good measure, even though they're letting us take WG squads as small as 3, they can't be transported in Falcons. Damnit, GW. Why? The models are $15 USD each. Why don't you want even foolish Iyanden players (like me) to buy more of them to put into transports that won't explode? I guess my WG will continue to zip around the board in wraithbone coffins.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> bigchris1313 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Although Doom will be nice because of the range, the lack of an LOS requirement, and the fact that everyone can use it against the target unit, at the end of the day, Eldar never had a problem with ranged weapon strength. It's always been the BS that's been lacking. I'd much rather re-roll a 4+ to hit on a Falcon than re-roll a 2+ to wound with a Starcannon. Now, in CC, that's another matter, what, with S3 all across the board, save the scorpions.
Feel free to use guide in conjunction with it then. Spirit stones cost about half as much now. Doom will certainly be a big help to units like banshees... Thanks for the update, BTW. You guys over at 40k online, the Tamashi fellow in particular, definitely have someone on the inside. No worries. The purpose of places like these is to share information and I certianly learn something everywhere I go. Glad I could post Tamashi's roundup for you. Lazarus.
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Post by: Reecius
@bigchris
my friend couldn't let me see the codex, he recited passages to me. So take it with a grain of salt.
I think the new codex will allow for some killer combos and synergistic relationships on the board. Imagine banshees charging a doomed squad? Very nice.
or harly's with fortune and doom on their target squad?
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Post by: Railguns
I hope that bit about the Phoenix Lords Armaments and Powers are possibly wrong. Baharroth used to be an MEQ killing dervish thanks to his sustained assault power weapon dealio. Now he will probably never earn his points back. Fuegan was my favorite, but now that his fire axe isn't even a power weapon he seems extremely redundant. Why the everloving heck would I need a strength 5 monstrous creature when I already have a tank-hunting firepike and melta-bombs? WHY? WHY? That seems just absolutely stupid! Feel no Pain is nice, but again he won't be killing anything but Non-Monolith vehicles he can get close to. There goes my favorite Phoenix Lord into the mediocre bin.
BTW, for Asurmen, are those shuriken gauntlets just the twin-linked catapults he has currently or the much nastier 4 shot dire gauntlets the Exarchs can get now?
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Post by: bigchris1313
Does anyone else think that Harlies look pretty good? For 22 pts, you get quite a deal.
1. You ignore difficult terrain entirely. No re-rolling dice, no choosing from 3, you straight-up ignore it. And fleet.
2. Furious charge, giving you I7 and S4 on the charge.
3. Rending.
4. 4 attacks on the charge.
5. Throw in 30 more pts on top of the base 220 for the Shadowseer, and we've got night-fighting on 2D6x2 (!) and plasma grenades.
These guys seem like genestealers on steroids. They might lack the T4 and a 4+, but they have a 5++. I suppose beyond the fact that these guys are elites while genestealers are troopers, the one main problem is that you can only buy a single unit of 10. But with that sort of ability to negotiate terrain and the night-fighting deal, it seems like these guys could survive long enough to shred people. For each Harlie you get into combat when charging, you're looking at 1 kill. You get 5 Harlies in, you get 5 kills. That's pretty damn good. And at I7, you'll be swinging before Librarians with familiars. A hidden powerfist (at 3 attacks) against these guys will only average 5/6 of a wound.
If the Shadow Seer's power is really good for 2D6x2" night fighting, I think these guys really have a shot.
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Post by: Reecius
Yes I agree, why would Fuegan's attack not be a power weapon? Seems strange.
and Baharoth without the web of skulls is a bit of a bummer, he was brutal.
But Maugan Ra looks bad arse, with an assault 4, 36" rending weapon? ouch, plus crack shot or fast shot, that could be brutal, mobile firepower with decent counter charge to boot.
I used to think that the PL's were nothing special but i lost a game to an eldar player using jain zar and she was just brutal. with her acrobatics she never came within range of my powerfist for the instakill, and she just cut down my marines left and right. I was only able to put two wounds on her after 6 turns. but now with no instakill possible? these characters will be even tougher.
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Post by: Sarigar
I agree, Maugen Ra seems a bit playable now, as it appears the Shuriken Cannon will be considered an Assault Weapon.
Overall, I'm very happy to see this roundup. I'm really hoping we'll be able to put Guardian weapons platforms in Wave Serpents. That will more than make up for the minimum 10 per squad.
Harlequins seem designed for Cityfight, not that that is a problem.
Definitely getting excited. After the earlier sets of rumors, I was looking at my Ulthwe Guardian heavy army and wondering if it would still be playable; it looks like I'll have no problems.
Thanks a bunch for the update.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> bigchris1313 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Does anyone else think that Harlies look pretty good? I think they will be great. I just wish they had the web way strike option....
I still find it odd that the codex only allows a single farseer model to be fielded. There are soo many players who have multiple farseers that will now have extra useless models...why even bother to buy the new seer models that are coming out? (I have 9 farseers) I'll console myself by fielding an Autarch in the second seer's place.
Lazarus.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By Reecius on 09/18/2006 2:36 PM
But Maugan Ra looks bad arse, with an assault 4, 36" rending weapon?
An assault 4 rending weapon that can be fired on the move from well beyond charge range? That's a hell of a weapon! It's so powerful they had to put it on a special character! Eldar special characters are really (x2) cheezy.
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Post by: Darkness
Overall I am very happy with the rumors after fearing that Eldar would be unbeatable. I think the list has a lot of character while still being stabdardized. My only concern is the new vectored engines. Falcons are even more unkillable.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Hmm. Well, I wonder if they want people to buy Wave Serpents? If nothing is changing about them as of now, they are the worst transports in the game, for the points.
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Post by: kwade
Posted By Kikkoman on 09/17/2006 7:03 PM
so what did the 2nd ed wave serpent field do?
It was insane. Serpents weren't in the original 2nd ed 'dex, they came out in a resin model with a datafax (might have been Armourcast, not positive at the moment).
Now, 2nd edition mechanics were completely different from what we've got today. Vehicles had a hit location table that you rolled on to see what effect any given shot against the vehicle had. IIRC, any shot that hit the field was negated completely. In addition, the Serpent could fire the field off in the shooting phase (as it had no weapons originally). The field went a random distance, and any enemy models touched by the field's template (which was a big wedge) got pushed out of the way. Kind of like being able to tank shock at a distance. It might have had additional effects as well, this is all my foggy mind can recall at the moment. Doubt we'd ever see anything like it again, to be honest. Those were the days when Wraithguard had an armor value instead of toughness, D-cannon were da bomb, Exarchs were independant killing machines of doom, a tooled up Farseer with Warlocks could completely ruin your day with psychic powers, shuricats had 24" range with sustained fire, and Warp Spiders fired off flamer templates of monofilliment wire that wounded based off of initiative rather than toughness.
Not saying I miss all of it, but man did we have more character back then... (as did everyone else ).
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Post by: Kikkoman
and everybody could get a bionic kickin' leg.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> The Happy Anarchist on 9/18/2006 4:09:57 PM</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> I wonder if they want people to buy Wave Serpents? If nothing is changing about them as of now, they are the worst transports in the game, for the points. They may be expensive but they should be able to deliver cargo to target even better now. Improved spirit stones mean no stun and vectored engines mean no crash on imobilized result. In addition star engines are rumoured to give 12" of movement instead of rolling for it....a transport with a 36" move? Yes please! I think we will start seeing serpents without much spent on weapons.... Lazarus.
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Post by: Doctor Thunder
Worst transport? Do you play without terrain or something?
As an avid Speed Freak player, I can totally see the Wave Serpent's potential.
First of all, it's so fast that your opponant should never get a chance to shoot at it before you deliver your cargo. 36 inches moving skimmer is plenty of movement to go from hiding behind cover to hiding behind another piece of cover within striking distance of the enemy.
Then, you leap over the cover and unload a nice 10-man fire dragon squad within shooting distance.
You pair that up with a second Serpent, or a Falcon carrying a small squad of avengers, and preform the fish of fury manuver, placing your skimmers so that any survivors will not have anough movement to get around your transports to assault your squads hiding behind the skimmers.
It's basically the way you would use Dark Eldar Raiders, but delivering short-ranged firefighting squads instead of HTH combat squads. The big difference is that, unlike the raider, serpents can take a few hits without going down, and have some pretty decent firepower. A Shurikan Cannon and twin-linked scatter lasers on a wave serpent will add some mighty decent firepower when your squads get out to shoot for not many points.
Worst transport?
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Post by: keezus
Yup. The Waveserpent sure is awesome:
At going fast:
24+12" possible move.
At not dying:
BS3 S7 -> 1/2(1/3)(1/6) -> 1/36
BS3 S8 -> 1/2(1/2)(1/6) -> 1/24
BS4 S7 -> 2/3(1/3)(1/6) -> 1/27
BS4 S8 -> 2/3(1/2)(1/6) -> 1/18
Quite respectable really.
The question is whether or not:
6 extra slots in transport capacity is worth the fewer shots as a tank, lack of holofield and non-scoring status
The WS is worth the potential troubles in Escalation.
Also, a fully tooled WS with the goodies ~ 150 points +/- 15 or so.
A tournament sized list will only have space to run around 4 mounted units, + support and mandatory choices (mounted or unmounted troos and HQ) - It is hard to discern whether or not using 550-600 points on non-scoring transports is a workable tactic... On the surface, to me, it seems that you are giving up too many bodies to gain the advantage in mobility. Interesting times for sure.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> keezus on 9/20/2006 9:39:41 AM</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> The question is whether or not:
6 extra slots in transport capacity is worth the fewer shots as a tank, lack of holofield and non-scoring status I use 2 serpents in my GT / RTT list and still have 11 scoring units on the board. I can't really see myself using more than 2 though....the codex in my hands may change how I look at it. Yes, the serpent is non-scoring but so are all non-dedicated transports. Keep in mind we have some insanely resilient units that are used for scoring (falcons anyone?) that will still likely be around at the end of the game to score objectives. Star engines will make objective grabbing a dream at 36" away. If the falcon cost more I'm cool with all the ioptions as it's a VP denial thing as well. The WS is worth the potential troubles in Escalation Especially combined with the autarch. This guy will really shine in tourney play giving a strategy rating 4 and + 1 to reserve rolls even when off board! A tournament sized list will only have space to run around 4 mounted units, + support and mandatory choices (mounted or unmounted troos and HQ) - It is hard to discern whether or not using 550-600 points on non-scoring transports is a workable tactic... On the surface, to me, it seems that you are giving up too many bodies to gain the advantage in mobility. Interesting times for sure. With the jetbikes move to troops and point reduction I think you will find that we have more mobility than ever before. Most solid eldar tourney lists I see rarely have more than 2 serpents as they are utilizing multiple falcons (and upcoming prisms). Dragons are cheaper & better at the same time. The cost savings there for a unit should afford toys somewhere else. Lazarus.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
I think the most interesting potential lies in using WS to transport so that you can free up Falcon slots to Fire Prisms.
The 3 Fire Prism list looks to have a lot of potential.
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Post by: Kikkoman
hmmm, think anyone would do double- scat laser warwalkers for the novelty of 8 shots? Something's gotta die from that
squad of 3, 24 s6 shots
that's alot of skat.
using my humble math skills... say, vs marines of course
bs3 so about 12 hit
2+ wound so 10 hit
3+ sv so about 3 die.
but vs squishier targets...
orks- you got 10 dead boyz
man, it seems New Eldar are just made for stomping orks. Or really anything not in power armor. Avenger shuriken storms, s6 h4 guns, 3attack s4 scorpions, etc.
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Post by: Reecius
Doth my eyes decieve me?!?! Are Dakkians actually being POSITIVE about the new codex?!?!
hahah, just kidding, but i agree, i think that the eldar are going to have huge potential to grab objectives and will be just incredibly mobile.
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Post by: Lazarus
Here is the latest rumour roundup. I have recently been told that harlequins will not be a 0-1 choice.....wow, I'm dusting mine off now. Lazarus. <table style="TABLE-LAYOUT: fixed" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" width="100%"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top" width="85%" height="100%"> Updated version 5.4 As promised this is my compiled list, so enjoy Got my hands on the Codex, it is laid out like a WHF army codex, the first 20 pages of it was all fluff, with the pages in it as seen in the WD, the next 38 pages of the Codex has a page for each of the units with their Wargear and special abilities as was shone in WD, then 10 pages on the points for the Squads/upgrades/options. And the last 16 pages was a how to paint the army section. In all 84 pages. Reading through the Codex I should say that it has 53 pages of fluff (lost about 5 pages due to full page pictures). It talks about the fall and then covers the different Eldar factions, and talks a little about their technology and belief's like in prior Codex's. It has a one page description on each of the 5 main craftworlds, covering their views and how they organize to fight (only saw ALtansar listed on a Galaxy list to show where it's located). A lot of it is just rewrites of prior Codex's. Then there is a one page description of each unit (as shone in the WD) talking about their abilities and wargear with a little fluff along with it mostly whats already been told. Then 10 pages of the Army list covering the costs and upgrades for the units. HQ: Avatar: Cost @155pts. Current stats with a change of +1Int +1A BS5 3+/4++ save. All Eldar within 12” will gain Fearless. Wailing Doom ranged attack (Melta gun stats). Immune to Flamer an Melta type weapons. Farseer: They will be T3 and cost @55pts. Ghosthelm, Shuriken pistol & Witchblade and Rune Armor as standard EQ (Ghosthelm will give a 3+ save against POW, but loses its effects on Daemons) he may upgrade Witchblade to a Singing Spear. He may take a Retinue of 3-10 Warlocks. Fortune (same as now) and Guide(same as now) flip flop costs, Mind war(same as now) but costs more, Eldritchstorm costs less ( same as now and 2d6+3 Pen vs. Vehicles), Doom costs between Fortune and Guide (cast on an enemy non vehicle unit, Rng 24" no Los, May re-roll to wound, effects both shooting and CC lasts till the start of your next turn). They can purchase Physic Wargear from the Armory, and this includes Jetbike. They may Fleet of Foot. States in the Codex that a Farseer is a single HQ choice. May take a WS transport. Warlocks: Cost @25pts, a Warlock may be upgraded to a Spiritseer @+6pts. May Fleet of Foot. Warlocks will now be both a Retinue for the Farseers and as a troop add-on character (this does not take a Warlock from the Farseer Retinue). They will have standard EQ of Rune Armor, Witchblade & Shuriken Pistol but may upgrade Weapons to Singing Spear @ +3 pts (as witchblade, when thrown 12" S-x AP6 A1), and may purchase a Jetbike if in a Jetbike unit. Conceal (same as now) costs less, Destructor(same as now) costs less, Embolden(same as now) costs less, Enhance(same as now) costs same. Autarch: Cost @70pts + gear. May Fleet of Foot. He will be an IC. He may choose from any basic Aspect gear but none of the Exarch only gear, and he will not have access to Exarch Powers (but may join an Aspect squad that has an Exarch and gain that Squads ability), standard EQ of Shuriken Pistol, Plasma & Haywire grenades and force shield, plus whatever Wargear choice he takes from the armory. His stats are as a Exarch with WS+1 BS+1 W+2 A+1 LD+1 3+/ 4++ save. Path of Command- Master Strategist -He gives a strategy rating of 4, and +1 to reserves rolls, where he is on or off the table. The Autarch will not have the option to take a Retinue. The Autarch Aspect Wargear options will be like this: Movement Helm 1 HW 2 HW SH Wings Banshee mask Laser Lance (if on Jetbike) Avenger Catapult WS Jumppack Mana blaster Scorpion Chainsword Fusion Gun Eldar Jet Bike Power Weapon Reaper Launcher Or on foot Las Blaster Death Spinner Troops: Dire Avengers: Troop choice, squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to an Exarch. Cost same. May Fleet of Foot. Avenger Catapult 18” Range. No grenade option. Exarch powers: Blade Storm (Squad: +1 shot, but cannot fire next turn), Defend (any attacking squad -1A to min of 1 in each combat phase). Exarch weapons combinations: Avenger Catapult, Power weapon & Shimmershield (gives squad a 5+ Inv. save while in CC), Diresword & Shuriken Pistol, or 2 Forearm mounted Avenger catapults(Assault 4 not TL). May take a WS transport. Rangers: Troop choice, squad size 5-10, costs same. No grenade option, but 5+armor. May Fleet of Foot. They will have Infiltrate/move through cover/stealth USR. They will be able to upgrade to Pathfinders @+5pt cost, which will give them Scout USR ability, ignore difficult terrain, an on a to hit roll of 5+ =AP1, and to increase their Cover save to +2. Guardians: Troop choice. Squad size 10-20 (21 including Warlock), same costs, May Fleet of Foot, you must take a heavy weapon platform the two crewmembers come from the squad (can only take one weapon platform); you may exchange their catapults for Shuriken Pistol & CCW to make Storm Guardians and then have the option for two special weapons (FusionGun or Flamer) upgrades (no grenade options). You can have a Warlock join the unit. HW platform does not count as taking up model slots in transports. May take an WS transport if 12 models or less. Guardian Jetbike: Troop choice, reduced to 22 pts, squad size 3-12, no stat change, no grenade options. You can have a Warlock join the unit @45pts. Limited to 1 Shuriken Cannon per 3 and will have a upgrade cost of 10pts. Transport Waveserpent: Cost 90. Still has Energy fields as now, and we will have to pay for the type of weapon turret you want costs a little more, may upgrade TL catapults @10pts to Cannon. Is able to hold 12 models. BS3. May not take Holo-field vehicle upgrade. Elites: (All Aspect warriors Exarch upgrade @12pts) Wraithguard: Elite choice (may take as Troop choice if squad of 10 with Spiritseer), Squad size 3-10, same costs, A squad of 5 with an Spiritseer may be mounted in a WS. They can have a Warlock/Spiritseer join the squad. They are affected by Wraithsight (A Warlock/Farseer may negate Wraithsight if within 6", or a Spiritseer if within 12" . Will be T6 now no other changes to stats, Wraith cannon will wound on a 2+ AP2, instant death on a roll of 6, and vs. vehicles it will glance on a 3-4 and penetrate on a 5-6. No grenade option. Striking Scorpions: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. cost same. Squad is S3 but Scorpion Chainsword gives +1 to Str. Manablasters are changing to +1A, gaining Plasma Grenades as standard EQ. Exarch powers: Stalker(Squad: move through cover USR), Shadow Strike(Squad Infiltrate USR). Exarch weapons: Scorpion Chainsword & Pistol, Biting Blade (HCCW gives +1S and for each successful to hit you add +1S to your to wound, not a PW) & pistol, Scorpion Claw (Str6 PF) & Scorpion Chainsword, Chainsabres (paired Chainswords with fist mounted Shuriken pistols, re-roll to hits and to wound). May take a WS transport. Fire Dragons: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. cost 1 pt less. May Fleet of Foot. Fusion Guns (Melta gun stats) & Melta bombs. May Fleet of Foot. Exarch powers: Tank Hunter (squad: Tank Hunter USR), Crack Shot (Exarch only). Exarch Weapons: Fusion Gun, Firepike (18" Melta gun), Dragons Breath (Heavy Flamer). May take a WS Transport. Howling Banshees: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. Same cost. May Fleet of Foot. Banshee mask will give Int10 and will negate opponents cover and grenade abilities in the first round of combat. No grenade option. Exarch power: Acrobatics (counter charge USR), War Shout (Opponents take a moral test if failed opponents become WS1 for the first Assault phase). Exarch weapons: Power Weapon & Pistol, Executioner & pistol, Mirror Blades (paired power weapons +2A). Triskele & shuriken Pistol (web of skulls type weapon 12" S3 AP2 A3). May take a WS transport. Harlequins: Elite choice. WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I6 Ld9 Sv 5++, 18 pts a model, units size 5-10. Fleet of Foot, Shuriken pistol &CCW as standard EQ, Dance of Death(Furious Charge USR, Hit and Run USR). Harlequins still have flip belts which allow them to ignore difficult terrain tests. Holo-fields give 5++save. They may choose to upgrade CC weapons to the Harlequin Kiss @ +4pts per model (rending CC weapon) and 2 squad members can upgrade their pistols to Fusion pistol(6" Melta gun) @10pts each. They can upgrade one Squad member to a Shadow seer @ 30pts, Shadow seer will have “Veil of Tears” Physic power (use night fight rules but at 2d6X2 Rng) he will have Hallucinogen/Plasma grenades and allows the squad that he’s with to gain them also. Upgrade one member to a Troupe Master @ 20pts (Power Weapon or Harlequin Kiss free upgrade and +1A +1LD). Upgrade one member to a Death Jester @ +10pts, The Death Jester exchanges his weapons for a Shreiker Cannon (same stats as Shuriken Cannon and gains pinning). Rumor that they are metal models not plastic. Fast Attack: Shining Spears: Fast Attack choice, may upgrade one to be an Exarch. Unit size 3-5. Reduction of cost to 35pts. Exarch Powers: Withdraw (hit and run USR), Expert Rider USR. They are changing the Laser Lance, it can make an 6" S6 AP4 A1/Lance shot and then count as a S6 Power Weapons on the charge, they then revert to S3 CCW in the following rounds of CC. No grenade option. Exarch may upgrade TL Catapults to a Shuriken Cannon. Exarch weapons: Laser Lance, Power weapon, or Star Lance a S8 version of the Laser Lance. Warp Spiders: Fast Attack choice, Squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to be an Exarch. same costs. No grenade option. Exarch Powers: Surprise Assault (always deep strike like terminators), Withdraw (hit and run USR). Death Spinner (12" S6 AP- A2). Exarch weapon options: Powerblades, Twin Death Spinner (Assault4). Spinneret Rifle (18" S6 AP1 A1 Pinning). Swooping Hawks: Fast Attack choice, Squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to be an Exarch. same costs. They have their normal grenades plus gaining Haywire Grenades as standard EQ. They can still drop pie plate when deep striking. Exarch powers: Intercept (gives ability to hit Vehicles in CC on a 4+ even against skimmers), and Skyleap (in your movement phase you may choose to leave the table and go into reserves even if you where in CC, opponent may only 3" consolidate move, then next turn you roll your reserve roll to bring them back in the next movement phase). Exarch weapons: Lasblaster, power weapon & pistol, Hawks talon (24" S5 AP5 A3), Sunrifle (24" S3 AP5 A6 pinning). Vyper: Reduction in cost 45pts and is counted as being open topped still. Will still have TL catapults (may upgrade to Shuriken Cannon @10pts), but will have to pay for the heavy weapons turret option and vehicle upgrades. BS3. Heavy Support: Support Weapons: 1-3 weapons platforms per choice D-cannons – same cost, will now be a G24” small blast versions of the Wraith cannon. It will affect Vehicles the same even if any part of the template touches them now. Instant kill on a to wound roll of 6. Vibro Cannons – cost less, You are allowed to Roll to hit for each cannon, then pick which cannon you are firing from, then draw a 36" straight line and any units under that line are hit with d6 hits (S4+1 for each additional cannon that hits), vehicles are hit with one automatic glancing hit. Shadow Weaver – cost less. No changes otherwise. May add a Warlock to the unit. Dark Reapers: Heavy Support choice, may upgrade one of them to be an Exarch. Squad size 3-5, -2pts in cost and gain back 3+ armor save. Not much else for the squad. No grenade. Exarch weapons: Reaperlauncher, Shuriken Cannon, Missile Launcher, Tempest Launcher (G36" S4 AP3 H2 blast). Exarch powers(self only): Crack Shot and Fast Shot as they are now. May take a WS transport. Wraith Lord: Heavy Support only. Cost more + weapons. You will have 2 light weapons(Flamer/catapult) and 1to2 heavy weapons, requirement of 1 HW still, weapons cost a little more (if you take two of the same type of weapon it will count as TL). Str10 standard (monstrous creature). Wraithsword upgrade(is a type of spirit weapon) which can re-roll to hits in CC. He will be affected by Wraithsight, he will need to be within 6" of a Warlock/Farseer or 12" of a Spiritseer to act normal. Falcon: cost same as prism +weapon +upgrades. Pulse Laser is changing from H1d3 shots to H2 (no more random amount of shot weapons). BS3. May carry 6 models, states that it may not carry a Wraithguard unit. Fire Prism: cost same +upgrades. Changing the Fire Prism weapon to be a duel propose weapon, Anti-tank mode Rng 60” S9 AP2 Small Blast, Anti-infantry mode S5 AP4 Large Blast. If you take a second Fire Prism and its in LOS of the other you can decide to boost the first one, Anti-tank mode Rng 60” S10 AP1 Small blast Twin linked, Anti-infantry mode S6 AP3 large blast twin linked. It is said that you can add a third Prism to make the Anti-Infantry mode S7 AP2 LrgBlast TL. BS4 as standard now. War walkers: Heavy Support, costs same + weapons. No force field, is count as being closed topped. They are gaining scout USR ability. There was no rule that if two of same kind weapon thats it is counted as TL. Spirit stone is only vehicle upgrade. Still BS3. Heavy Weapons: (this is the listed price for the vehicle HW not the Platforms) Shuriken Cannon: as it is now but A3 5pts Scatter Laser: as it is now but H4 15pts Eldar Missile Launcher: Same stat line as it is 20pts Bright Lance: as it is now 30pts Starcannon: as it is now but H2 25pts Pulse Laser: as it is now but H2 Fire Prism: As in its Vehicle description Special Characters: (that are in the book, may take as a HQ option) Eldrad Ulthran – Farseer of Ulthwe @210pts. T+1. All the Farseer Wargear and 3++ Rune Armor. Will have all 5 Farseer Powers & Ability Divination -Will be able to redeploy d3+1 units before the start of the game once setup is completed (Not just move them 6" now). Staff Still has the same effect as before. Prince Yrial – Autarch of Iyandan @155pts, +1I +1A. Force Field, Plasma Grenade. Special Weapon: Cursed spear of Twighlight (Singing spear type Power weapon, has an effect in last turn, making him have to make a Inv save or die), Eye of Wrath (S6 AP3 Lrg Blast centered from character, use once per game). Phoenix Lords – They range between 190-230pts, their stats are WS+1 BS+2 A+1 2+save to what is listed for them now. Ability Disciples- (A squad of their shrine that they join gains Fearless and their abilities). PL's protected from insta-kill by a special rule "Eternal Warrior". May Fleet of Foot. Karandras- Weapons -Scorpion Bite (Manablasters +2A), Scorpion Chainsword, Scorpion Claw, Plasma Grenades Powers: Stalker, Shadow Strike, Stealth USR(can effect squad) Maugan Ra- Weapons- Maugetar (36" S6 AP5 A4 Rending/Pinning) Powers: Crack Shot, Fast Shot, Acute Senses USR(can effect squad) Jain Zar- Banshee Mask Weapons- Executioner, Silent Death(S5 Ap2 A3) Powers: Acrobatics, Warshout, (self only)Furious Charge USR Baharroth- Swooping Hawk wings, Grenade packs, Plasma & haywire Grenades, Hawks Talon, Power Weapon Powers: Skyleap, Intercept, Hit an Run USR(can effect squad) Fuegan- Weapons- Firepike, Fire Axe( Str+1 Pw & vs. Vehicels Str+ 2d6 Pen), Melta Bombs Powers: Tank Hunter, Crack Shot, Feel no Pain USR Asurmen- Weapons: Avenger Gauntlets, Sword of Asur(Diresword with re-rolls to hits) Powers: Blade Storm, Defend, Battle Fate( 4++ save) Wargear & Upgrades: Physic Wargear: Rune of Warding: Costs a little more, will make an opponents physic roll 3d6 and total them together with any total 12+ causing an POW test to them this ability has no range limit. Spirit stone: reduced almost 1/2 the cost, abilities same as now Rune of Witnessing: costs more now, abilities same as now Vehicle Upgrades: Spirit Stone: same cost, is changing to same as Extra armor (reduces Crew stunned to shaken result) Vectored Engines: costs more, changing to make fast vehicles traveling more then 6" count as moving as less then 6" so that they just settle to the ground. Star Engines: costs more, will have a fixed distance of 12". Holo-field: costs more, stats will stay the same CTM is not in the new Codex. Scythes is not in Codex No new Vehicle upgrades This is all I'm allowed to give, the point costs I've been told not to post other then what others have allready posted. And if I post everything in the Codex, no one will buy it  PS. I repost this posting when it starts to fall behind in the thread and as I update it. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="smalltext" valign="bottom" width="85%"> <table style="TABLE-LAYOUT: fixed" width="100%" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="smalltext" width="100%" colspan="2"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="smalltext" id="modified_1471933" valign="bottom">« Last Edit: Today at 04:45:19 PM by Tamashii » </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Wait a minute. If the Falcon is costing the same as the Prism, and the Prism is the same cost, that means Falcons got cheaper, didn't they.
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Post by: Darkness
that would indicate that they cost less, but holofields have gone up in price.
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Post by: Longshot
The shuriken cannon upgrade is supposedly cheaper too. So kitted falcon price should stay about the same.
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Post by: Lazarus
I have had two different sources claim that Tamashi's postings about the eldar codex are pretty much accurate......does anyone have anything to disprove this? Lazarus.
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Post by: Kikkoman
so, if this is correct, Karandras can throw out 7 s8 powerfist attacks a turn, at ws7
no inv sv's for phoenix lords other than Asurmen?
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Post by: Lazarus
The phoenix lords do indeed pack more puch now.....jain zar can dish out quite a bit as well on a charge (lol) No invulnerable save but immunity to instant kill means they'll have a chance to do some damage. Time will tell. Lazarus.
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Post by: bigchris1313
I've never taken special characters. Something about them has just never sat right with me.
But if Tamashii is right about Harlies having 2 base attacks, I think I'd be more than willing to pay 22 pts for 4 rending attacks on the charge.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Not to mention the I7 with plasmas, ignoring of terrain and super-night fight goodness.
Even the DJs are sounding nasty, with Assault 3 S6 pinning gun.
They should be quite lethal.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 09/26/2006 3:31 PM
Even the DJs are sounding nasty, with Assault 3 S6 pinning gun.
Wake up. You're dreaming. First, it's AP5. Second, pinning against MOCU, SM Commander, Necrons, or Hive Mind means nothing. Third, that's 4 less rending attacks on the charge.
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Post by: Longshot
They're like super genestealeronettes.
Without the main weakness that both genestealers and daemonettes have - not doing well against targets in cover. Plasma grenades and I7 will make everything better.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Posted By bigchris1313 on 09/26/2006 7:54 PM Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 09/26/2006 3:31 PM
Even the DJs are sounding nasty, with Assault 3 S6 pinning gun.
Wake up. You're dreaming. First, it's AP5. Second, pinning against MOCU, SM Commander, Necrons, or Hive Mind means nothing. Third, that's 4 less rending attacks on the charge.
Your right, you caught me dreaming. Dreaming of a world that is not primarily fearless and covered in power armor.
Sigh, but to live in that world.
Still, thinking about all things together. Compared to stealers, they get the aforementioned bonus against cover. They always get a 5+ save, which will help on incoming casualties. Not nearly as much as 2d6x3 Night Fighting rules. Added to that, Hit & Run to help take maximum advantage of Furious Charge & Rending.
I could easily see them being the terror of a gunline, or even most close combat types. Moving up almost unpunished by enemy fire, then dancing in and out of close combat when it suits them.
Of course, the dream is not the reality. Still, they could be one of the shining units of the codex when it comes down to it.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 09/26/2006 9:42 PM Of course, the dream is not the reality. Still, they could be one of the shining units of the codex when it comes down to it.
I hope so. That many rending attacks, night fight, scrambling through cover; it just seems like it could work.
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Post by: skyth
Posted By bigchris1313 on 09/26/2006 7:54 PM Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 09/26/2006 3:31 PM
Even the DJs are sounding nasty, with Assault 3 S6 pinning gun.
Wake up. You're dreaming. First, it's AP5. Second, pinning against MOCU, SM Commander, Necrons, or Hive Mind means nothing. Third, that's 4 less rending attacks on the charge.
MoCU doesn't allow you to re-roll pinning checks btw...
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Post by: Therion-
The reason why they won't work is because you can't summon them from your Daemon Prince and watch them enter a combat of your choice completely unscathed. Do the Harlequins have a 12" assault move? No, and noone can screen them. One Predator Destructor worth 110 points kills 65,2 points of Harlequins in one turn, and that is an amazing ratio. I foresee the Harlequins as the new 'kill me' favorite. We'll see a lot of them at painting competitions though.
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Post by: Kikkoman
Posted By Therion- on 09/27/2006 4:11 AMI foresee the Harlequins as the new 'kill me' favorite. We'll see a lot of them at painting competitions though.
which is why we have the three wraithlords deployed 
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Posted By Therion- on 09/27/2006 4:11 AM
The reason why they won't work is because you can't summon them from your Daemon Prince and watch them enter a combat of your choice completely unscathed. Do the Harlequins have a 12" assault move? No, and noone can screen them. One Predator Destructor worth 110 points kills 65,2 points of Harlequins in one turn, and that is an amazing ratio. I foresee the Harlequins as the new 'kill me' favorite. We'll see a lot of them at painting competitions though.
At which point the Destructor is either a) within charge range or b) risked losing his shot an extra bad night fight roll.
Care to hazard a guess at what that many rending attacks can do to a Pred Destructor? Or alternatively, what several Fire Dragons or Bright lances will do to one?
They seem like they are vulnerable to being pounced upon. A unit of dropping termies would do ugly, ugly things to them. However, they seem like they would be good against alot of lists. Particularly gunlines and close combat based lists. Major issues with drop lists though. If zillas manage to get close enough with Dakkafex, that would be bad, not as bad as the termies, but still bad.
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Post by: Reecius
One Predator Destructor worth 110 points kills 65,2 points of Harlequins in one turn You are foregttin their night fight rules, if it truly is 2d6 x 2, tha tis insane. The pred would not get to shoot at them untill they where very close. Also, with flip belts they can take a route totally out of LOS. I still think that they will best be used as a counter charge unit, and in that roll they will excell, if the rumors turn out to be true. which is why we have the three wraithlords deployed Hell yeah! Three WL's in heavy cover with 2 heavy weapons each and fortune/guide/doom will be super tough. Better than shooty carnies in heavy cover by far. those will form a nearly invulnerable to shooting fire base with good counter charge ability. Hide some Harlies behind those boys and you have a seriously brutal combo that can sit and shoot like crazy or advance shoot, and charge in later turns.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By Reecius on 09/27/2006 7:54 AM
Hell yeah! Three WL's in heavy cover with 2 heavy weapons each and fortune/guide/doom will be super tough. Better than shooty carnies in heavy cover by far. those will form a nearly invulnerable to shooting fire base with good counter charge ability. Hide some Harlies behind those boys and you have a seriously brutal combo that can sit and shoot like crazy or advance shoot, and charge in later turns.
Too expensive. I'm going to try out one Fire-support Wraithlord in my Iyanden, but it's going to be the only WL I field. I'd rather have a Falcon that will never die, leaving me 200 VPs that can swoop 24" to grab a table quarter on the last turn. And did I mention that they can carry 6 Fire Dragons, which were made better and received a pts decrease?
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By skyth on 09/27/2006 2:51 AM MoCU doesn't allow you to re-roll pinning checks btw...
Damnit. Well, I guess they're stuck testing on Ld 9, or a 10 if they took a (possibly free) aspiring champion.
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Post by: Reecius
@ bigchris
No doubt the falcon is better, that is a no brainer. I was just making the point that three WL's in heavy cover with fortune on them would be near unkillable and have a nasty ranged punch. I think it is safe to say at this point, with the rumors we have, that mechanized eldar will be the hands down best option.
and i agree, the fire dragons will be even more appealing now, a falcon with 6 fire dragons will be a serious punch in the fact to anything they target.
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Post by: Kikkoman
Posted By Reecius on 09/27/2006 11:14 AM
@ bigchris
No doubt the falcon is better, that is a no brainer. I was just making the point that three WL's in heavy cover with fortune on them would be near unkillable and have a nasty ranged punch. I think it is safe to say at this point, with the rumors we have, that mechanized eldar will be the hands down best option.
and i agree, the fire dragons will be even more appealing now, a falcon with 6 fire dragons will be a serious punch in the fact to anything they target.
I find that the wraithlord's purpose is to draw fire though. Fortuning them seems redundant, as anything that can reliably hurt them will take out 3+ sv's. The new eldar seem to have lots of mobility added on to an already mobile list. Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, Hawks, Pathfinders, Harlequins, and now Scorpion+Exarch, Eldar seem to be made to slaughter in Cityfight. anyone playing DE should just use this new codex as counts-as instead
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Post by: Reecius
Fortuning them seems redundant, as anything that can reliably hurt them will take out 3+ sv's. am i incorrect in remembering that fortune works on cover saves? I thought it did, in which case a WL in heavy cover is damn near unkillable, if i remembered the rule wrong, then you are correct, it would be stupid.
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Post by: Lazarus
Fortune does indeed work on cover saves. On the few occassions that I do field a wraithlord it's almost always as a "gun in cover" type unit. With it's high toughness and an invulnerable save (thanks to cover) it will be around shooting and drawing fire for some time. I can't wait to combine fortune with the new avatar....assuming that he can still be attached to my "mini council" he'll benifit from the same fortune I'm casting on them...who cares if he can be picked out due to his size.....he will likely suck up all fire and laugh it off....lol Lazarus.
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Post by: Sgt_Scruffy
They seem like they are vulnerable to being pounced upon. A unit of dropping termies would do ugly, ugly things to them. However, they seem like they would be good against alot of lists. Particularly gunlines and close combat based lists. Major issues with drop lists though. If zillas manage to get close enough with Dakkafex, that would be bad, not as bad as the termies, but still bad.
Actually, a unit of dropping termies kills about 5.31 of them (if I didn't mess up my math) If they're fortuned, it's 3.54. No, dropping termies should probably focus on fire dragons and falcons since they would have the means of getting into pain range more quickly.
I think dropping marines might be in trouble with new Eldar. Fire Dragons in Falcons, Singing Spears getting turbo boosting saves the turn they drop, then charging with laser lances, and harlies with night fight, rending, ignore terrain and invulnerable saves. I especially think the 175-250 points of Shining Spears (if they take exarch powers) the Eldar anti-drop pod unit of choice.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By Sgt_Scruffy on 09/27/2006 8:54 PM I think dropping marines might be in trouble with new Eldar. Fire Dragons in Falcons, Singing Spears getting turbo boosting saves the turn they drop, then charging with laser lances, and harlies with night fight, rending, ignore terrain and invulnerable saves. I especially think the 175-250 points of Shining Spears (if they take exarch powers) the Eldar anti-drop pod unit of choice.
Yeah, we all appear to be pretty much obligated to pick up a unit of Singing Spears now. Damnit.
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Post by: Reecius
Dropping marines are fairly easily defended against if you know they are coming, and i agree, shinning spears will bring the serious hurt on dropping marines. With their speed and power on the charge they will be very very nasty.
@Lazarus, thanks for clarifying. And yes, 2 WL's in hevay cover with 2 heavy weapons and fortune will be a pretty damned solid fire base. combine that with some fast movers and specialty troops and you have a very versatile, mixed arms force. I am very excited for the new codex, and it is nearly here!
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Post by: GrimTeef
I took a day off work the other day and happened to be at my FLGS on the day the GW people were helping stock. I got a look at the test Eldar Codex, and everything we've seen here on rumors is holding up to be true.
One thing I noticed is that as far as the Harlequin's Kiss goes, it does not require the entire squad to take it as an upgrade. The text specifically says "any" Harlequin, not "all" or "every". So you can have some 18 point Harlies to take the hits, and the 22 pointers with Kiss to do the damage dealing.
Another interesting note is that the WarWalker does not have a specific special rule saying that their weapons are not twin-linked when 2 of the same weapon are bought. It just does not give a bit in the rule saying that they are twin linked, like the WraithLord entry does.
It looks like Vectored Engines and Star Engines work as they have been rumored to.
I did see what must have been an older test codex though, as the Phoenix Lords only had 2 special rules to their name, as far as I could tell.
Speaking of Phoenix Lords and Special Characters, I think that the Phoenix Lords are the only special characters that I would really use - (besides Nazdreg, but he's cool) - they are immortal and they have this crazy way of showing up at the right time, and they seem to have some way of accessing the webway, so I have no real trouble taking them. The models are excellent as well, so that doesn't hurt.
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Post by: wolfman101
I havent seen it mentioned yet, so I thought I would point out that my favorite weapon against castle enemies in my eldar army is tank shock. There isnt much better than having one tank force leadership checks on half the opposing army. If you tank shock 3 marine units, one of them will fail the leadership check. Multiply this by 4-5 tanks and you could get a significant portion of his army running. Even better if they are on the board edge and you can get your tanks to escort the fleeing units off the board quickly and easily. Then you unload at the beginning of the next turn before your vehicles move so you can assault.
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Post by: keezus
wolfman101: The reason why nobody has mentioned Tank Shock is that LD based attacks are laughably ineffective given the current trend of high leadership scores. While tankshocking multiple units out of position may seem like a good tactic, here's a few reasons why it might not be as good as you think. 1. Actual chance of a unit to fail its tankshock check is low. Ld10: 8.3%
Ld9: 13.9% 2a. Once tankshocked out of the way, because Eldar vehicles are skimmers, LOS is not blocked, as such, their firelanes remain unobstructed by the tankshocking vehicle.
2b. Your rear armour is probably showing now. 3. The Eldar tankshock army of yore is a thing of the past, due to increased cost for the cheapest base units which may be transported leading to a net loss of skimmer hulls. In 3rd edition, the maximum skimming tank hulls that could be fit into a Canadian GT tournament list was: 11 hulls. This is without any upgraded heavy weapons or survival gear. 2x Farseers w/ min-wargear + Warlock + stock Waveserpent
6x Min Guardians w/ stock Waveserpent
3x Stock Fireprism Under V4 Codex, you will be loosing at least 2 hulls due to guardians going min-size 10 and farseer / warlock combos increasing in price. As well, realistically, you need some protective gear, better guns than shuriken cannons and add additional equipment to the embarked units, probably further reducing the skimmer fleet by 1+ hulls. So let's look at a best case scenario with 8 skimmer hulls. So assuming you have 8 hulls inflicting 2 tankshocks each (unlikely in an actual game) will result in 1.33 broken squads of Ld10 troops, or 2.22 broken squads of Ld9. So. Getting back OT, tank-shock seems at best a throwaway tactic to use when your vehicle is stunned and doesn't have anything better to do. Basing an army around it seems foolhardy.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By keezus on 09/29/2006 10:43 AM So. Getting back OT, tank-shock seems at best a throwaway tactic to use when your vehicle is stunned and doesn't have anything better to do. Basing an army around it seems foolhardy.
Shaken, you mean. But you're right about it being a lousy idea around which to base an army.
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Post by: wolfman101
I tried to post this yesterday, but dakka was apparently down.
Anyway, my first contention, is that shooty marine armies are mostly Ld8, since vet sarges cut down on the number of weapons you can buy, so 1/3 of the Ld checks will fail. Second, I think you are underestimating the number of units a gravtank can shock with its 24" move. I think 3 units would be a conservative estimate, and 4-5 units per tank is more accurate if the enemy is bunched up. Third, an 1850 point list will be able to fit a 100pt HQ, 6 wave serpents with star engines and min sized squads, and 3 fire prism with holofields, or 9 hulls.
5th, I can think of some truly evil things someone can do with 6 tank shocking serpents that dont block LOS and a double shot from the fire prisms. Or just 6 wave serpents without fire prisms.
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Post by: feuerdrache
I don't know if this is new, or not.
A local redshirt is painting the Warwalker and Prince Yuriel figures for White Dwarf. According to him, Yuriel is so busted, he takes a wound at the end of the game no matter what. He's got 2 or 3 Wounds, apparently.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Posted By wolfman101 on 10/01/2006 12:19 PM
Anyway, my first contention, is that shooty marine armies are mostly Ld8, since vet sarges cut down on the number of weapons you can buy, so 1/3 of the Ld checks will fail.
Incorrect. Most Marine armies are Ld10 now, thanks the Master giving everyone Ld10 just for being on the board. BYE
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Post by: Reecius
That is true, and i agree it may not be the BEST tactic in the world, but you could displace some shooty units out of cover, making them more vulnerable,
however, then your tanks are sitting right in the middle of all of your opponants guns. I can't imagine that they would last too long.
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Post by: wolfman101
OK, my friend that owns the marine codex failed to mention the master to me and the last marine player I fought didnt mention that rule. So, tankshocking marines off the board is indeed impossible. So I guess I will tell you the plan I had with the fire prisms and see what rule I dont know about that would make it ineffective. This all takes place in one turn. During the movement phase, you first run 2 serpents on opposite sides of a group of marines to form the walls of the trap. 
Then run a third falcon up between the first two to close the lid. 
Finally, fire your fire prisms through your wave serpents. 
Anyone see any problems with this?
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By wolfman101 on 10/02/2006 1:26 PM Anyone see any problems with this?
Yes. The Serpents are portrayed as moving skimmers as opposed to flaming wrecks at worst or immobilized at best.
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Post by: Kikkoman
wolfman: and would the serpents be carrying storm squads with two flamers and a Destructor warlock?
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Post by: Sarigar
The problem I see is you have one shot taken but 4 tanks (with troops inside probably) setting up this one shot. On top of it, why even fly the WS next to the line. If a unit has to fall back, they fall back in their corridor towards their board edge. It also looks like you are moving enemy models to accomodate your Wave Serpents. Are you trying a Tank Shock? On a first turn, your set up would have to be darn near flawless as you get one turn to face then go in a straight line for Tank Shock.
Maybe I just don't get it. Could you explain it further?
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Post by: wolfman101
Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/02/2006 3:22 PM
Yes. The Serpents are portrayed as moving skimmers as opposed to flaming wrecks at worst or immobilized at best.
Anyways, the tanks could have whatever in them. I would imagine banshees would excel at finishing the squads off if given a chance.
Basically the point of all the tank shock is to compress the enemy into, hopefully, base to base contact with each other. So as to ensure the maximum number of models under the blast template, which will soften up the enemy for assault or whatever. Obviously you can throw more templates down from another heavy choice or a flamer squad or something.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Banshees would be a terrible choice.
Your tanks don't block LOS, so they hop out (or get shot down and entangled) and sit there to be shot to death
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Post by: wolfman101
That is why they dont hop out that turn. They hop out beginning of next turn so they can move and assault.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
"That is why they dont hop out that turn. They hop out beginning of next turn so they can move and assault."
So, they sit there for a turn, and the enemy just moves away 6" so when you do get out you're not in charge range. Well done.
BYE
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Post by: wolfman101
What exactly are you talking about? The units will be safer in the serpents than they would be out of them. Just to make it perfectly clear what exactly the plan is, since I dont think you guys are understanding my previous posts.
Your move
-tank shock the marines so that you get them the most compact you can.
-DO NOT unload your wave serpents
Your shooting
-lay down as many blast templates as possible
Enemy Move
-most likely will sit still so that he can fire the maximum number of shots at you
Enemy shooting
-you pray to Jesus
Your move
-unload your serpents before they move
-move the unloaded units where ever you feel like
-repeat the compression tactic on another group
Your fire
-More blast templates
Your Assault
-assault the enemy you fired at the first turn with your dismounted troops.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Or they don't move everyone who is greater than 13-19" away and shoot with them, and the ones who are close they move with. Especially considering that most firepower is mobile and if it is not, they can sacrifice firing with the squads closest because you used the majority of your army on one small portion of their gunline. Also, do you really think a tactic that involves Enemy shooting
-you pray to Jesus
would actually be viable? Hell, it is actually worse if they do have firepower and stay and shoot. Then they bring the Waveserpent down (which has no holofields) and the banshees sit in the open and get shot anyways.
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Post by: nikeforever22
Why get close and be subject to 24 inch weaponry? Waveserpents and Falcons should utilize their movement combined with the range of their weapons to negate the amount of return fire while maximising the output of fire. Outside of 30.01 inches (usually 24, but 6 inches of movement combined with the 24 range of the assault cannon) one has to worry about the autocannon and the 48 inch big guns (i.e., missle, las,). Use terrain, bring as many guns to bear, and either wipe out a unit or position yourself to only have the return fire gun removed - while minimizing the LOS to other units.
Deployment and movement can still keep a skimmer list viable, but overall I'm not sure if the Eldar rumors from these 22 prior pages constitutes a tier one army. Time will tell.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> nikeforever22 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Deployment and movement can still keep a skimmer list viable, but overall I'm not sure if the Eldar rumors from these 22 prior pages constitutes a tier one army. Time will tell. I still think that a "skimmer" list will be very competitive in the new codex. The composistion of it will change slightly from what we have seen in the past though. Lazarus.
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Post by: keezus
Lazarus: You've been going on like a broken record about how the new dex is competitive without giving any specifics. That's like me saying that alchemy is a legitamite science and that it is possible to turn lead into gold, that my friends and I do said transmutation regularly, and that the nay-sayers in the field of chemistry are unimaginative fools - all without giving any concrete evidence of my claims. The rumours are 90%. Post some skimmer heavy lists that are competitive with the current tournament environment and put your money where your mouth is.
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Post by: Toreador
It's all still theory anyway until the actual codex comes out. So why bother until then?
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Post by: keezus
Toreador:
Dude.
You're so right.
Theoryhammer is ruining the game. Discussion of rumours is bad for the game too. Space elf players are so whiny. Its not like 2 years was a long time to wait for a new codex. Can't those guys just wait a few more months before discussing tactics?
The rumours seem to show that Eldar players will have to buy lots of new figs to be competitive... but that's just conjecture, since the rumours are only 90%. They should wait for the new codex and the new repackaged models, so that they can pay the repackaged price. After all, its foolish to buy models based on rumour. And of course, since models build and paint themselves, I'm sure we'll see lots of tier 1 tourny armies from the Eldar players by December.
Also, Eldar players are stupidheads. Waveserpents are the most ROXORZ transport in the game.
Yup. I rest my case.
You sir, are a genius.
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Post by: Mahu
Posted By keezus on 10/05/2006 6:48 AM Lazarus: You've been going on like a broken record about how the new dex is competitive without giving any specifics. That's like me saying that alchemy is a legitamite science and that it is possible to turn lead into gold, that my friends and I do said transmutation regularly, and that the nay-sayers in the field of chemistry are unimaginative fools - all without giving any concrete evidence of my claims. The rumours are 90%. Post some skimmer heavy lists that are competitive with the current tournament environment and put your money where your mouth is.
Do you really know what you are talking about?
I know Lazarus personally and have been following this thread, and I can tell you are way off base. His arguements have been against people who say that there is no way for the Eldar to be competitve. One of the posts that he made was that his current optimized list got better because unirs he uses got cheaper. Besides, all you are doing now is trolling. What till you meet a half-decent Eldar player with the new dex in his hands and you might sing a different toon.
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Post by: Therion-
Besides, all you are doing now is trolling. What till you meet a half-decent Eldar player with the new dex in his hands and you might sing a different toon. Have you seen the new codex? How can you assume that a decent Eldar player has any chance against a decent SM player without knowing the specifics of the army in question? The "Eldar are fine you just don't know how to play them" line is getting really old. There's a chance I might be able to read through the book in detail tomorrow (hopefully) and so I'll post my verdict then. At the moment I'm only curious whether the list is worse than Codex Orks and Codex Dark Eldar, so my expectations are not high. I'll second keezuz' sentiment: If you think the Eldar can cut it without resorting to min max heavy 3 Starcannons, huge Seer Councils or tons of Disruption rolls, post your list at the army list forum.
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Post by: Mahu
Have you seen the new codex? How can you assume that a decent Eldar player has any chance against a decent SM player without knowing the specifics of the army in question? The "Eldar are fine you just don't know how to play them" line is getting really old. I am sorry, I have seen to many decent Eldar players that pull off consistant without resorting to the tactics you listed above to be swayed to your opinion. And furthermore, you missed my point. People are argueing that the Eldar are a weak list in general and yet people still win with them. Currently, without the New Dex in hand it is hard to argue how they will be in the new codex, but if all the rumors are true, things get better and cheaper. Eldar do not need min max heavy 3 Starcannons, huge Seer Councils or tons of Disruption rolls to win games. It still just trolling to complain that the Eldar list is ineffective when youhaven't seen the codex. If anything I am argueing that their is a strong possibility that this isn't the case.
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Post by: keezus
Posted By Mahu on 10/05/2006 8:11 AM Do you really know what you are talking about? I know Lazarus personally and have been following this thread, and I can tell you are way off base. His arguements have been against people who say that there is no way for the Eldar to be competitve. One of the posts that he made was that his current optimized list got better because unirs he uses got cheaper. Besides, all you are doing now is trolling. What till you meet a half-decent Eldar player with the new dex in his hands and you might sing a different toon.
Mahu> I have heard many from un-named GW staffers who have seen the codex that the majority of the rumours stated within this thread are accurate. But then again, they probably don't know what they're talking about, and I don't have any tactical sense compared to Lazarus' tactical wizardry. I also think that the Eldar dex is not toothless - only very limited in scope, since all the really effective stuff (firedragons excluded) are competing for the slots in fast attack or heavy support. Troops are largely worthless, unless you want to buy huge quantities of jetbikes. I have yet to hear any coherent arguement as to why WAVESERPENTS, banshees, rangers, wraithguard and swooping hawks deserve a place on the new battlefield. If you'd turn your "selective vision" off, you might notice that Lazarus claimed that waveserpents do not suck, and then immediately changed directions and was singing the praises of a falcon heavy list. But I digress. The codex is coming out soon. I hope you and Lazarus are ready to post some real tactica that don't revolve around Falcons, Fireprisms, Firedragons or Shining Spears.
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Post by: keezus
I am sorry, but this "my dad can beat up your dad" style of post is getting old. If Therion and I am wrong about the tactical abilities of the dex, please, by all means, prove us wrong by posting some tactics that consists of something other than: "I've seen competent eldar players win without -insert unit here-" and "I've seen Lazarus win and he's a good general" Because, unless I've really started to loose my mind, most players can't go to their local game store and use the above advice.
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Post by: keezus
Therion: I'm convinced that the new dex is the time of the Samm Hain army of doom - max spears, jetbike troops and fireprisms. A rolling tide of invulnerable saves, softened up units, charges to block firing lanes, retreat and repeat.
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Post by: bigchris1313
But Keezus, why Fireprisms? You get 1 Shot at BS4. If you use the double shot, you get 1 TL shot at BS4. That's 2 tanks that both have to be functioning. I don't see why the Falcon won't continue to be the heavy choice. I know that the Prism will be a good horde killer, but I just don't know that that warrants a vehicle that at all other times has to worry about having a functioning partner in order to do decent damage against MEQs. (Again, with 1 shot, BS4 TL or otherwise).
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Post by: syr8766
Yeah, I'd rather have 3 falcons with 6-man fire dragon squads ready to pounce inside. A little two-fer, as it were.
I have to agree with Keesus and Therion. If you want Eldar to be tournament-competitive, you're looking at the aforementioned Samm-Hain army of doom. We can debate whether or not that's the most 'fun' way to play 40k in some other thread (or probably lots of other threads...sigh...), but if we want to compare codex to codex, tournament-style lists are going to be the way to do it, and Eldar, so far, don't match up to the Marine Codex. Once again, Eldar have limited options for effective tournament armies...only now it's the opposite units from the last codex.
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Post by: Mahu
Posted By keezus on 10/05/2006 10:36 AM I am sorry, but this "my dad can beat up your dad" style of post is getting old. If Therion and I am wrong about the tactical abilities of the dex, please, by all means, prove us wrong by posting some tactics that consists of something other than: "I've seen competent eldar players win without -insert unit here-" and "I've seen Lazarus win and he's a good general" Because, unless I've really started to loose my mind, most players can't go to their local game store and use the above advice.
I don't understnad how, saying that the Wave Serpent is good and three falcons are good are contradictory arguements, but I digress.
If you want to continue to believe that your opinion is the only valid one than there is nothing I can say to change your mind. Like I said, you will find yourself facing off against a good Eldar player and realise how they can beat you. When you accept your loss, remember this thread.
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Post by: CaptKaruthors
Keezus,
With all do respect, your jabs at Lazarus are really slowed. Lazarus's performance on local and larger regional tournaments has always been high. Look at his record at the Necronomicon...a pretty large tournament that drew great players from all over. Furthermore, he has loads of RTT overalls with his mech list under his belt, the most current overall coming from last week...and before you retort with some stupid response of "oh those are all local guys that played in the RTT", the majority of the players in that RTT were from out of town...people that are never at the FLGS at all. His track record and experience with eldar shows that his input into the matter on mech eldar tactics works. Additionally, how do you explain Team Saim Heinous's win at Adepticon's TT? That list was entirely mechanised and literally destroyed everyone in their path....all with the grossly outdated Eldar Codex. With the new Codex on the horizon (and points costs down, wargear and units get boosts), I fully expect to see a list like that again at a major tournament and I fully expect that it will be one of the tougher lists out there. Besides, who named you and Therion as the end-all-be-all authorities on the matter? So far nobody has even commented on how crazy it will be with Eldrad and another farseer in your army. Tossing out Doom 3 times a turn is hideous and with a highly mobile list is going to be crazy.
Capt K
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Post by: derling
Posted By Lazarus on 10/05/2006 4:17 AM <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> nikeforever22 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Deployment and movement can still keep a skimmer list viable, but overall I'm not sure if the Eldar rumors from these 22 prior pages constitutes a tier one army. Time will tell. I still think that a "skimmer" list will be very competitive in the new codex. The composistion of it will change slightly from what we have seen in the past though. Lazarus.
I'm with ya Laz, I ownTau and Eldar(among others), and I can say skimmer heavy forces can play highly competitive. What constitutes a "teir 1" army is highly subjective. you have to remember, on Dakka(and most other forums) it's not trendy to be good at using the eldar army. wns, Tim
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Post by: winterman
But Keezus, why Fireprisms? You get 1 Shot at BS4. That doesn't seem to bother Tau players. Sure hammerheads have S10 AP1 but they don't have holofields or combined fire. Plus a well kitted prism appears to be slightly less points then standard hammerhead loadouts. I don't think prisms are necessarily better then falcons. However, if you aren't using the 6man elite squads and would rather have extra points then why not take the prisms? Especially when you can no longer cast guide in the falcons?
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Post by: keezus
Posted By CaptKaruthors on 10/05/2006 11:51 AM
Keezus,
With all do respect, your jabs at Lazarus are really slowed. Lazarus's performance on local and larger regional tournaments has always been high. Look at his record at the Necronomicon...a pretty large tournament that drew great players from all over. Furthermore, he has loads of RTT overalls with his mech list under his belt, the most current overall coming from last week...and before you retort with some stupid response of "oh those are all local guys that played in the RTT", the majority of the players in that RTT were from out of town...people that are never at the FLGS at all. His track record and experience with eldar shows that his input into the matter on mech eldar tactics works. Additionally, how do you explain Team Saim Heinous's win at Adepticon's TT? That list was entirely mechanised and literally destroyed everyone in their path....all with the grossly outdated Eldar Codex. With the new Codex on the horizon (and points costs down, wargear and units get boosts), I fully expect to see a list like that again at a major tournament and I fully expect that it will be one of the tougher lists out there. Besides, who named you and Therion as the end-all-be-all authorities on the matter? So far nobody has even commented on how crazy it will be with Eldrad and another farseer in your army. Tossing out Doom 3 times a turn is hideous and with a highly mobile list is going to be crazy.
Capt K
CaptK: maybe I'm overly obtuse - I have been known to be pretty damn thick -
Here's what's winning a lot around here: + Tooled falcons x3 - which is just obscene. (with or without Disruption in an Alaitoc list)
+ Alaitoc with 6+ disruption rolls
+ Saim Hann -all vypers all the time
+ Seer Council of Doom
+ Starcannon Army of Doom - with or without Ulthwe rules.
+ Firedragons in waveserpents So, please for godsakes stop beating me over the head with Lazarus is winning lots. I already know that he's a very winning general. You've said it. He's said it. Mahu's said it. I'd like to know HOW he's winning lots. I'm not disputing that he's not skilled, or that he's not winning, or that his opponents are sub par!!!!!!!! I'd like to know how he does it. Cripes, any monkey can put together one of the above listed "trick" armies and be somewhat successful. I'd like to NOT BUILD ONE THE ABOVE LISTS. So, if at all possible, I'd like to shake some knowledge out of our tournament winning friend so that my squads of swooping hawks, scorpions, banshees, wraithguard, warwalkers etc. aren't gathering dust in V4. Particular points of interest are: 1. How do you overcome enemy concentration of force. - Specifically, outside of VP denial with resilient units, the rest of the army - as far as I can tell - isn't that resilient. So short of hiding, how do you win the VPs race. 2. How do you deal with sparse terrain. - More of an extension of the above - due to low resilence in the list, sparse terrain probably the lists worst nightmare. 3. Starcannons have lost 1/3 effectiveness PER SLOT. While going from heavy 3 to heavy 2 doesn't seem like much, it has effectively removed starcannon spam as a tactic. How do you make up the ranged medium shooting? 4. HTH foot aspects. How to use? - Sincerely A very dense eldar player.
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Post by: keezus
I suggested Prisms because there aren't any leftover points after 15 spears, 20 bike guardians, 3 prisms and 2 bike-seers in 1850. IRRC.
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Post by: Lazarus
Wow.......such negativity here. I'm currently at work and will be going home soon. I'll answer some questions when I get there. Pretty sure I've had threads locked for less than this. (lol) Lazarus.
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Post by: Inquisitor_Malice
Here's a power list that will wreck anyone: All banshees on foot
Three Shadow weaver heavy units
Farseer with Eldritch Storm
Two 20 man guardian units with missile launcher platforms.
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Post by: Lazarus
posted by: keezus Lazarus: You've been going on like a broken record about how the new dex is competitive without giving any specifics. Just as others are going on and on about how nerfed it is... Post some skimmer heavy lists that are competitive with the current tournament environment and put your money where your mouth is. Please define "current tournament environment". This deffinition will assuredly be different depending on where you are playing and what type of tourney you are playing in......surely you recognize the difference between comp scoring tourneys and ones that do not utilize comp scoring....the lists will be different. Posted by:Therion- Have you seen the new codex? How can you assume that a decent Eldar player has any chance against a decent SM player without knowing the specifics of the army in question? The "Eldar are fine you just don't know how to play them" line is getting really old. I have confirmation on over 90% of it (pretty much as others have stated). With the changes I've seen I'll still do just fine against marines. I only used 2 or 3 star cannons in my regular mech list depending on which list build I was using....the star cannon nerf doesn't do much to me. The presence of doom in my list will surely make up for it. I'll second keezuz' sentiment: If you think the Eldar can cut it without resorting to min max heavy 3 Starcannons, huge Seer Councils or tons of Disruption rolls, post your list at the army list forum. Should I post every list that I've won tourneys with? Would it make a difference? I'm pretty sure from what I've gathered from my short time here is that it would be just picked apart (lol). I had people tell me that you couldn't win with dire avengers and a fire prism under current rules.....I proved that worng more than once. posted by: keezus
I have heard many from un-named GW staffers who have seen the codex that the majority of the rumours stated within this thread are accurate. But then again, they probably don't know what they're talking about, and I don't have any tactical sense compared to Lazarus' tactical wizardry. Tactial wizardry......(lol). From what I understand the bulk of the rumours are true.....with that in mind I do not see how anyone can honestly look at the codex and not see the potential that I see there.....Sure, you can'y make the obvioulsy broken stuff anymore but that's not what I have been winning my games with.... I also think that the Eldar dex is not toothless - only very limited in scope, since all the really effective stuff (firedragons excluded) are competing for the slots in fast attack or heavy support. Before we had little choice but to field what was effective (especially the yardstick the compares everything against MEQ's). Now, we have too many choices to field all of it.....that's a bad thing? (lol) Troops are largely worthless, unless you want to buy huge quantities of jetbikes. Worthless? In what context? Bikes are going to rock in this codex and it's about time.... I have yet to hear any coherent arguement as to why WAVESERPENTS, banshees, rangers, wraithguard and swooping hawks deserve a place on the new battlefield. There will always been unused units even if all of them are good. There simply isn't enough room for them all to be in there. I used 2 serpents in saturday's RTT....with the new codex they are even harder to kill and now have access to a 12" boost....what more do you need? Wraith guard became much more viable although still expensive. I would have killed for a unit of the new hawks in my 3rd game facing the monolith list of doom. I never used rangers much but see potential especially with pathfinders combined with doom. If you'd turn your "selective vision" off, you might notice that Lazarus claimed that waveserpents do not suck, and then immediately changed directions and was singing the praises of a falcon heavy list. Both units got even better in the new codex. Falcons certianlt are better than serpents and if you compare them to each other the serpent certianly falls short. I suppose if they made the serpent better than it is it just wouldn't be fair...lol I hope you and Lazarus are ready to post some real tactica that don't revolve around Falcons, Fireprisms, Firedragons or Shining Spears. Let me see if I have this right.....you want me to post a list without using stuff that will obviously work? (lol) Any other handicaps or is that it? (lol) I am sorry, but this "my dad can beat up your dad" style of post is getting old. You should see my grandpa fight...lol (he's 93) Here's what's winning a lot around here: + Tooled falcons x3 - which is just obscene. (with or without Disruption in an Alaitoc list)
+ Alaitoc with 6+ disruption rolls
+ Saim Hann -all vypers all the time
+ Seer Council of Doom
+ Starcannon Army of Doom - with or without Ulthwe rules.
+ Firedragons in waveserpents 3 tooled falcons (or likey 2 and 1 prism) will be even more obscene in the new dex. I no longer view spirit stones as a nerf at all. My spirt stones worked twice all day this last saturday and likely wouldn't have made a difference. I don't use Alaitoc and it's one of the main reasons I'm mechanized. Don''t use Saim Hann either....when I field vypers it's usually the scatter laser / shuriken cannon combo as I have found it scores better on comp and busts transports like nobody's business. I played the seer council of doom a single time in the last 4 years as it doesn't exactly make a good impression for comp scoring...it was a "last hurrah" list as we lose it next month. I never put dragons in serpents....silly rabit that's what falcons are for. So, please for godsakes stop beating me over the head with Lazarus is winning lots. I already know that he's a very winning general. You've said it. He's said it. Mahu's said it. I'd like to know HOW he's winning lots. I'm not disputing that he's not skilled, or that he's not winning, or that his opponents are sub par!!!!!!!! It sure seems like it's implied that I have no clue of what I'm talking about. I can post several different list but as I said earlier they will just be picked apart and said to be unworthy. When the codex comes out I'll assemble my new list and continue to win with it. Even when I do the nay sayers will come up with reasons for my wins. Whatever... I'd like to know how he does it. Cripes, any monkey can put together one of the above listed "trick" armies and be somewhat successful. I'd like to NOT BUILD ONE THE ABOVE LISTS. So, if at all possible, I'd like to shake some knowledge out of our tournament winning friend so that my squads of swooping hawks, scorpions, banshees, wraithguard, warwalkers etc. aren't gathering dust in V4. First it depends on what sort of tourney you are entering. (I play lots of RTT's so I tend to concentrate on those) I play a mechanized list for the following reasons: a) it's a great counter to the disruption table. This obviously will be uniportant in the new dex. b) It works pretty damn well again drop pod marines using fear of the darkenss. c) It works wonders against the daemon bomb lists d) it's insanely resilient and a great VP denial engine. e) it is great for objective grabbing due to it's insane mobility. If you can go to a tourney with a list that can consistently beat the top tourney lists then you have a pretty good shot of doing what you need to do. 76% of all my opponents are MEQ's....with that in mind I usually have a good idea of what I'll be facing won't I? Saturday I faced marines , daemon hunters and then necrons...all MEQ's. Some of you units will gather dust. For me it will be my beloved scorpions and I've already covered why in another thread. Nothing will change the way GW does things. I have no doubt that for casual play the entire codex will be viable which we can't say of the last one. In competitive play our unit selection will hinge on the type of list we are trying to build. Since I'm building a mech list that pretty much rules out some things for me if I want to keep the theme... 1. How do you overcome enemy concentration of force. - Specifically, outside of VP denial with resilient units, the rest of the army - as far as I can tell - isn't that resilient. So short of hiding, how do you win the VPs race. There is no set rule for this as it will depend entirely on the situation. First off in my case my mech list is extrmely resilient so that's a built in given for me. I usually apply my mobility and firepower where it is needed most. The largest concentration of enemy I ever dealt with was over 270 imperial guard infantry @ 1850 points with my 44 model list. I rushed him and got fortuned scopions into his lines...they killed 97 models by themselves before it was over. I had the dire avengers make it as well and they killed over 40...Falcons absorbed ridiculous ammounts of fire as usual... 2. How do you deal with sparse terrain. - More of an extension of the above - due to low resilence in the list, sparse terrain probably the lists worst nightmare. Pray. (lol) I walked the 20 something tables and before round one I could spot the tables that if I was assigned and lost initiative I knew that I'd likely lose the game. This is a downfall of tournaments and not the list itself. The game certianly has guidlines as to how much terrain should be used. Another reason I use the type of list that I do is the model count. In previous lists I had high model counts and often found that we didn't finish our whole 6 turns. I keep track of all my toureny data and was able to figure that the very few games that I ever lost were called short on time....something to consider. 3. Starcannons have lost 1/3 effectiveness PER SLOT. While going from heavy 3 to heavy 2 doesn't seem like much, it has effectively removed starcannon spam as a tactic. How do you make up the ranged medium shooting? 3 of my best overall awards as well as my necro list only had 2 star cannons in the whole list. I had once used as many as 5 but kept slowly removing them to stop the crying of the marine babys. (who coincidentally pack as many assault cannons into the list that they can fit) I utilize cannon upgrades everywhere possible (which got cheaper). The rest is filled out with scatter laser and the like and then my troops get close and personal... 4. HTH foot aspects. How to use? Not much use for those in a mech list. The only unit I'd consider for this role is harlequins....hug terrain + veil of tearms means you can get pretty close. On a side note: Thanks to those who stuck up for me....not sure why this is such a hostile place as I do not encounter this sort of thing anywhere else. Lazarus.
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Post by: Therion-
Should I post every list that I've won tourneys with? Please do. It sure seems like it's implied that I have no clue of what I'm talking about. I can post several different list but as I said earlier they will just be picked apart and said to be unworthy. As a conclusion of your own statement your lists must be pretty ineffective overall. Winning anything with them makes you either incredibly lucky or your opponents incredibly stupid, so which is it? Some of you units will gather dust. For me it will be my beloved scorpions I have never seen anyone field Striking Scorpions or Wave Serpents in a Warhammer 40K 4th edition tournament. I guess the Eldar players here don't feel the same way as you do, and neither do their opponents. There simply isn't enough room for them all to be in there. I used 2 serpents in saturday's RTT....with the new codex they are even harder to kill and now have access to a 12" boost If Gav Thorpe tells you that the Eldar have access to wargear that makes a tank permanently immune to all damage, but fails to mention that the upgrade costs 1000 points each, you'd still go running around yelling how Eldar have access to items that make their tanks invincible and that it is sure proof that Eldar are competitive. This is why I want to see complete army lists before making a judgment about an army's capabilities. It really doesn't matter what toys you have available to you if you can't fit enough of them into the same army. According to all the lunatics in this thread it seems to me that all Eldar tanks will be upgraded with Spirit Stones, Holofields, Vectored Engines and Star Engines, and loaded full with Fire Dragons. Let's just say I'll follow the army list development with great interest.
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Post by: Longshot
I'm totally holding off til I see a codex, but ..
Alaitoc and Bieltan both win a lot here. 3 falcons + fire dragons starts both of the winning lists I've seen, because that combo is such a bloody sledgehammer to so many lists. Yes, you have to be cautious in escalation, but the falcons roll on and pick up the dragons -- also, it was ruled for a while that you can opt to hold any units you want off in Escalation, and that contributed a lot to making this list so nasty.
My buddy ran Alaitoc with 1 squad of 4 pathfinders, 8 x 4 rangers, a bulletspongeatar, 2 x 6 fire dragons, and 3 falcons, and maybe a couple brightlance vypers. disruption rolls combined with the fast dragons, tons of Ap1 shooting just did a number on a lot of lists.
He also ran Biel Tan with 3 x 6 fire dragons, 2 farseers with fortune and singing spears, 2 x 8-9 scorpions, 3 falcons, and did pretty well by using fortuned scorpions to deny vps and counter-assault while hoofing it. This list did, ehn, ok.
His current Biel Tan looks like, 3 x 6 fire dragons, a farseer with a spear and guide/stones, 2 squads of scorpions in waveserpents, a squad of 2 flamer guardians with a destructor warlock in a waveserpent, and 3 falcons - all brightlances on the serpents I believe.
These lists have all won or contended in tournaments (Sometimes lost due to things in stages of painting, etc) and never gone less than 3-1 in a tourney (I think he only lost one tourney game ever, actually, and it was to an Iron Warriors army that got first turn and killed 2 falcons).
The game isn't that super competitive around here though, not like European tourneys. He usually has powderpuffs until he runs into one of our gaming club guys in the 3rd or 4th round of tournaments. So I can't say unequivocally that the lists are superduper but they are more than enough to handle most moderately tooled armies.
Plus, all of the variants he's used have the advantage of being crazily tooled to take out 3/4ths of the competition - space marines.
Anyway I'm sure it will change a lot with cheap jetbike troops and other very cool faster options. Waveserpents really are only worthwhile in that they add more armor. Not really an optimal choice.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> Therion</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> As a conclusion of your own statement your lists must be pretty ineffective overall. Winning anything with them makes you either incredibly lucky or your opponents incredibly stupid, so which is it? Preety ineffective? My opponents stupid? You amaze me.....lol. Only the internet provides people like you lol. I have never seen anyone field Striking Scorpions or Wave Serpents in a Warhammer 40K 4th edition tournament. I guess the Eldar players here don't feel the same way as you do, and neither do their opponents.
No serpents or scorpions??? (lol) Perhaps you play in different types of tourneys there.....I'm not sure what to tell you. My scorpions pretty much secured my win saturday chewing through lots of necron warriors...they survived an amazing amount of punishment as well.....but gee wiz...since players somewhere else don't use them then I guess I shouldn't either (lol) If Gav Thorpe tells you that the Eldar have access to wargear that makes a tank permanently immune to all damage, but fails to mention that the upgrade costs 1000 points each, you'd still go running around yelling how Eldar have access to items that make their tanks invincible and that it is sure proof that Eldar are competitive. Now you are just being dense. It is widely known that falcons are highly competitive now. In the new dex they are even more survivable than before....I have seen nothing to indicate a "1000 point" upgrade cost and most rumours have the falcon at nearly the same cost as before. This is why I want to see complete army lists before making a judgment about an army's capabilities.
Are you incapable of making a list with the rumour roundup I've posted here? Surely a master like yourself should be able to do so....Do you simply want to pass judgement on what you think a good list will be? Obviously we play with different toys here as you don't see scorp or serpents.... According to all the lunatics in this thread it seems to me that all Eldar tanks will be upgraded with Spirit Stones, Holofields, Vectored Engines and Star Engines, and loaded full with Fire Dragons. Lunatics? (lol) hmmm, let's see...holo field and spirit stones were already pretty much mandatory. Cannon upgrade (usually purchased already) dropped in price which makes affording more toys easy. Many will go back to the scatter laser by dropping the star cannon once again saving points. Vectored engines will be a must have and add star engines if you so desire...nothing like grabbing an objective from 36" away on the last turn of the game. Hmmm, convieniently firedragons are better and cheaper and also just happened to be already riding in my falcon....yeah you're right. Only lunatics would field stuff like that. Totally ineffective! Lazarus.
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By keezus on 10/05/2006 7:18 AM
Also, Eldar players are stupidheads. Waveserpents are the most ROXORZ transport in the game.
Quoted for hilarity and truthery. Yoink!
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Post by: Therion-
Preety ineffective? My opponents stupid? You amaze me.....lol. Only two things amaze me ( lol): Your habit of adding lol to every sentence ( lol), and the fact that you just admitted you're not posting any Eldar army lists because Dakkaites would find them ineffective ( lol), and then only minutes later getting 'amazed' when you're proven right. ( lol)
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Post by: wolfman101
Edit: wow, I didnt notice there was another 2 pages on this thread. This was in response to people responding to my last post on page 22. The Happy Anarchist:
-If the enemy is turtling, very few of his units will be more than 12" from your serpents. If he isnt turtling, then I think you would want to do this to his largest group first.
-I was making a joke, every tactic involves praying you dont get a run of bad luck. Lighten up some guys.
-If the new vectored engines work as advertised in the rumours, the only reason the units would disembark would be on a six on the glancing hit chart, otherwise the units can just sit tight in the serpent.
nikeforever22
The way I see it the only weapons that can damage serpents from < 36" range are melta guns, assault cannons, and demolisher cannons. I dont see too many shooty armies with enough meltas and assault cannons to pose much more of a threat to serpents, and demolisher cannons have the chance of scattering onto his troops, so I doubt he would use that. If the enemy does have a multitude of meltas and assault cannons, then by all means sit out of range and shoot them.
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Post by: deitpike
where are all the cool eldar rumors?
oh right
they are about 20 pages ago
all this thread is now is Therion and Lazarus saying "I'm right" NO! "I'm right!"
I hear the codex is coming out in stores soon
I also hear I've been talking about the one I read since june
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Post by: nikeforever22
I'm not saying that one is unable to win with the proposed Eldar list. Rather, it is going to be very hard to play at the competitive levels of other top tier armies.
Please post the list that is "proposed" to be a strong list. I understand that few of us have access to the Eldar codex at this time, but please post the list so we can understand and critique it.
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Post by: Sarigar
Therion, I think you need to remember most US tourneys have an army comp system. From lists and battlereports you've posted in the past, we (for the most part) don't ever see those types of lists in the US tourneys.
Having said that, for what we've seen rumorwise, the things that got nerfed in the Eldar codex was not something we used or saw a lot in the US anyways. Losing the 9 Disruption roll, 50+ Seer Council and all Vyper w/ Starcannon armies are not a big deal in the US. Heck, I can't even remember seeing 3 Wraithlords (not that they are too difficult) at a tourney b/c of its' internet reputation. Having the Starcannon drop from Heavy 3 to Heavy 2 is a loss we'll feel, but not one that can't be overcome. I've dropped about 11 Starcannons off of my list over the couple years of playing it (2000 point games) b/c of army comp. People just thought it was abusive and scored my army accordingly.
That is a large part of the US tourney enviornment. That is why our armies will look vastly different from Finland and UK tourney lists. Heck, locally, the last tourney had 28 players and only 1 Iron Warriors player.
Here's a list that has won me overall. Laugh all you want, but comp dictates true min/max lists will not win (at least not at any tourney I've ever attended).
2000 points
Eldrad (yep, big point sink)
Seer Council (3 Farseers, Guide x2 Fortune) (3 Warlocks, Enhance, Embolden, naked) 3 Witchblades
3 x 8 Guardians, Starcannon w/ 2 Crew. Warlock w/ Embolden
2 x 9 Black Guardians, Warlock w/ Destructor, Wave Serpent (Twin Scatterlaser, Twin Starcannon)
8 Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch and Powerfist and Stealth, Haywire Grenades.
2 x Falcons (tooled out)
1 Wraithlord w/ Brightlance
That's off the top of my head, so points may be off. Are we stupid? No. But we have a definitively different tourney enviornment than what you play in. This list would be laughed off the table in a no comp enviornment and I'm well aware of this.
Bottom line is this: In the US, we may end up happier with the new Eldar Codex. It opens up a lot for us to look at and use. While it seems it will give us more options, it closes the door on the standard fare min/max armies of doom.
And I can't wait to get my hands on it.
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Post by: derling
Posted By Therion- on 10/05/2006 8:41 PM Preety ineffective? My opponents stupid? You amaze me.....lol. Only two things amaze me ( lol): Your habit of adding lol to every sentence ( lol), and the fact that you just admitted you're not posting any Eldar army lists because Dakkaites would find them ineffective ( lol), and then only minutes later getting 'amazed' when you're proven right. ( lol)
I wonder why Dakka isn't taken more seriously?
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Post by: Lazarus
Posted by: Therion- Only two things amaze me (lol): Your habit of adding lol to every sentence (lol), and the fact that you just admitted you're not posting any Eldar army lists because Dakkaites would find them ineffective (lol), and then only minutes later getting 'amazed' when you're proven right. (lol)
Do you realize that you used (lol) four times in that post? (I had to say this as you really crack me up...probably the reason that I used (lol) OMG! I just checked that long post of mine at the top of the page and you are right! I used (lol) 7 times which I'm sure breaks some sort of internet law when dealing with stupid people. If thats all you got to pick on then go for it. As for posting lists: Whatever I post will not be "good enough" beacuse we are in different tourney environments. I could say the same thing of whatever you post here in regards to our tourneys due to comp scoring. When you bring the uber cheese list of doom here you will likely not get best overall even if you won all of your games. The point is to win the top prize....at least that's how we approach it here. p.s. since I haven't used (lol) yet in this sentence here is one now. LOL Posted by: deitpike where are all the cool eldar rumors?
oh right
they are about 20 pages ago I had been previously posting and updating but soon got tired of the negativity of certain posters here.  all this thread is now is Therion and Lazarus saying "I'm right" NO! "I'm right!" We may both be right in our respective tournament formats. I have asked for a definition but did not receive one so I can only assume that is where the problem lies. I still say that the codex will be extremely competitive in my format and I am pretty sure I can make it work in a gladiator type list. Posted by: nikeforever22 I'm not saying that one is unable to win with the proposed Eldar list. Rather, it is going to be very hard to play at the competitive levels of other top tier armies.
Again, please define "competitive level" & "top tier" army. In my tourney environment my list is certainly considered "top tier" & "competitive". No one ever gets assigned to my table and says "Oh cool, an easy win here." usually they are worried and praying for initiative. Please post the list that is "proposed" to be a strong list. I understand that few of us have access to the Eldar codex at this time, but please post the list so we can understand and critique it. Again, the list will only be "strong" or "winning" depending on it's environment. the list that i'm making for the gladiator at Adepticon is certianly different from the list I just won the RTT with isn't it? Posted by: Sarigar Therion, I think you need to remember most US tourneys have an army comp system. From lists and battlereports you've posted in the past, we (for the most part) don't ever see those types of lists in the US tourneys. This may indeed be part of the problem as the lists will be built from different perspectives. I personally prefer comp scoring as it prevents some of the sheer cheese out there. Sometimes you'll see it anyways like I did saturday with the 3 lith and nightbringer list but at least you'll rest knowing he won't win best overall.... Having said that, for what we've seen rumorwise, the things that got nerfed in the Eldar codex was not something we used or saw a lot in the US anyways. Losing the 9 Disruption roll, 50+ Seer Council and all Vyper w/ Starcannon armies are not a big deal in the US. Heck, I can't even remember seeing 3 Wraithlords (not that they are too difficult) at a tourney b/c of its' internet reputation. Having the Starcannon drop from Heavy 3 to Heavy 2 is a loss we'll feel, but not one that can't be overcome. I've dropped about 11 Starcannons off of my list over the couple years of playing it (2000 point games) b/c of army comp. People just thought it was abusive and scored my army accordingly. My thoughts exactly. Here's a list that has won me overall. Laugh all you want, but comp dictates true min/max lists will not win (at least not at any tourney I've ever attended).
2000 points
Eldrad (yep, big point sink)
Seer Council (3 Farseers, Guide x2 Fortune) (3 Warlocks, Enhance, Embolden, naked) 3 Witchblades
3 x 8 Guardians, Starcannon w/ 2 Crew. Warlock w/ Embolden
2 x 9 Black Guardians, Warlock w/ Destructor, Wave Serpent (Twin Scatterlaser, Twin Starcannon)
8 Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch and Powerfist and Stealth, Haywire Grenades.
2 x Falcons (tooled out)
1 Wraithlord w/ Brightlance I could see this as a winning list in comp play and have used similar in the past to win RTT's. The reason I had to abandon the list was the proliferatiion of psychic hoods and to counter the local daemon bomb & alaitoc players.... That's off the top of my head, so points may be off. Are we stupid? No. But we have a definitively different tourney enviornment than what you play in. This list would be laughed off the table in a no comp enviornment and I'm well aware of this.
Bottom line is this: In the US, we may end up happier with the new Eldar Codex. It opens up a lot for us to look at and use. While it seems it will give us more options, it closes the door on the standard fare min/max armies of doom.
And I can't wait to get my hands on it. Well said. Posted by: derling I wonder why Dakka isn't taken more seriously?
Do you really wonder? Lazarus.
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Post by: Lazarus
Since it's about 4 pages back I'll post it here again to hopefully produce some positive thinking. - Lazarus. <table style="TABLE-LAYOUT: fixed" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" width="100%"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top" width="85%" height="100%"> Updated version 5.4 As promised this is my compiled list, so enjoy Got my hands on the Codex, it is laid out like a WHF army codex, the first 20 pages of it was all fluff, with the pages in it as seen in the WD, the next 38 pages of the Codex has a page for each of the units with their Wargear and special abilities as was shone in WD, then 10 pages on the points for the Squads/upgrades/options. And the last 16 pages was a how to paint the army section. In all 84 pages. Reading through the Codex I should say that it has 53 pages of fluff (lost about 5 pages due to full page pictures). It talks about the fall and then covers the different Eldar factions, and talks a little about their technology and belief's like in prior Codex's. It has a one page description on each of the 5 main craftworlds, covering their views and how they organize to fight (only saw ALtansar listed on a Galaxy list to show where it's located). A lot of it is just rewrites of prior Codex's. Then there is a one page description of each unit (as shone in the WD) talking about their abilities and wargear with a little fluff along with it mostly whats already been told. Then 10 pages of the Army list covering the costs and upgrades for the units. HQ: Avatar: Current stats with a change of +1Int +1A BS5 3+/4++ save. All Eldar within 12” will gain Fearless. Wailing Doom ranged attack (Melta gun stats). Immune to Flamer an Melta type weapons. Farseer: They will be T3. Ghosthelm, Shuriken pistol & Witchblade and Rune Armor as standard EQ (Ghosthelm will give a 3+ save against POW, but loses its effects on Daemons) he may upgrade Witchblade to a Singing Spear. He may take a Retinue of 3-10 Warlocks. Fortune (same as now) and Guide(same as now) flip flop costs, Mind war(same as now) but costs more, Eldritchstorm costs less ( same as now and 2d6+3 Pen vs. Vehicles), Doom costs between Fortune and Guide (cast on an enemy non vehicle unit, Rng 24" no Los, May re-roll to wound, effects both shooting and CC lasts till the start of your next turn). They can purchase Physic Wargear from the Armory, and this includes Jetbike. They may Fleet of Foot. States in the Codex that a Farseer is a single HQ choice. May take a WS transport. Warlocks: A Warlock may be upgraded to a Spiritseer. May Fleet of Foot. Warlocks will now be both a Retinue for the Farseers and as a troop add-on character (this does not take a Warlock from the Farseer Retinue). They will have standard EQ of Rune Armor, Witchblade & Shuriken Pistol but may upgrade Weapons to Singing Spear @ +3 pts (as witchblade, when thrown 12" S-x AP6 A1), and may purchase a Jetbike if in a Jetbike unit. Conceal (same as now) costs less, Destructor(same as now) costs less, Embolden(same as now) costs less, Enhance(same as now) costs same. Autarch: Cost + gear. May Fleet of Foot. He will be an IC. He may choose from any basic Aspect gear but none of the Exarch only gear, and he will not have access to Exarch Powers (but may join an Aspect squad that has an Exarch and gain that Squads ability), standard EQ of Shuriken Pistol, Plasma & Haywire grenades and force shield, plus whatever Wargear choice he takes from the armory. His stats are as a Exarch with WS+1 BS+1 W+2 A+1 LD+1 3+/ 4++ save. Path of Command- Master Strategist -He gives a strategy rating of 4, and +1 to reserves rolls, where he is on or off the table. The Autarch will not have the option to take a Retinue. The Autarch Aspect Wargear options will be like this: Movement Helm 1 HW 2 HW SH Wings Banshee mask Laser Lance (if on Jetbike) Avenger Catapult WS Jumppack Mana blaster Scorpion Chainsword Fusion Gun Eldar Jet Bike Power Weapon Reaper Launcher Or on foot Las Blaster Death Spinner Troops: Dire Avengers: Troop choice, squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to an Exarch. Cost same. May Fleet of Foot. Avenger Catapult 18” Range. No grenade option. Exarch powers: Blade Storm (Squad: +1 shot, but cannot fire next turn), Defend (Squad: any attacking squad -1A to min of 1 in each combat phase). Exarch weapons combinations: Avenger Catapult, Power weapon & Shimmershield (gives squad a 5+ Inv. save while in CC), Diresword & Shuriken Pistol, or 2 Forearm mounted Avenger catapults(Assault 4 not TL). May take a WS transport. Rangers: Troop choice, squad size 5-10, costs same. No grenade option, but 5+armor. May Fleet of Foot. They will have Infiltrate/move through cover/stealth USR. They will be able to upgrade to Pathfinders at a cost, which will give them Scout USR ability, ignore difficult terrain, an on a to hit roll of 5+ =AP1, and to increase their Cover save to +2. Guardians: Troop choice. Squad size 10-20 (21 including Warlock), same costs, May Fleet of Foot, you must take a heavy weapon platform the two crewmembers come from the squad (can only take one weapon platform); you may exchange their catapults for Shuriken Pistol & CCW to make Storm Guardians and then enstead of a HW platform they have the option for two special weapons (FusionGun or Flamer) upgrades (no grenade options). You can have a Warlock join the unit. HW platform does not count as taking up model slots in transports. May take an WS transport if 12 models or less. Guardian Jetbike: Troop choice, reduced pts, squad size 3-12, no stat change, no grenade options. You can have a Warlock join the unit. Limited to 1 Shuriken Cannon per 3 upgrade. Transport Waveserpent: Still has Energy fields as now, and we will have to pay for the type of weapon turret you want costs a little more, may upgrade TL catapults to Cannon. Is able to hold 12 models. BS3. May not take Holo-field vehicle upgrade. Elites: Wraithguard: Elite choice (may take as Troop choice if squad of 10 with Spiritseer), Squad size 3-10, same costs, A squad of 5 with an Spiritseer may be mounted in a WS. They can have a Warlock/Spiritseer join the squad. They are affected by Wraithsight (A Warlock/Farseer may negate Wraithsight if within 6", or a Spiritseer if within 12" . Will be T6 now no other changes to stats, Wraith cannon will wound on a 2+ AP2, instant death on a roll of 6, and vs. vehicles it will glance on a 3-4 and penetrate on a 5-6. No grenade option. Striking Scorpions: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. cost same. Squad is S3 but Scorpion Chainsword gives +1 to Str. Manablasters are changing to +1A, gaining Plasma Grenades as standard EQ. Exarch powers: Stalker(Squad: move through cover USR), Shadow Strike(Squad Infiltrate USR). Exarch weapons: Scorpion Chainsword & Pistol, Biting Blade (Two handed CCW gives +1S and for each successful to hit you add +1S to your to wound, not a PW) & pistol, Scorpion Claw (Str6 PF) & Scorpion Chainsword, Chainsabres (paired Chainswords with fist mounted Shuriken pistols, re-roll to hits and to wound). May take a WS transport. Fire Dragons: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. May Fleet of Foot. Fusion Guns (Melta gun stats) & Melta bombs. May Fleet of Foot. Exarch powers: Tank Hunter (squad: Tank Hunter USR), Crack Shot (Exarch only). Exarch Weapons: Fusion Gun, Firepike (18" Melta gun), Dragons Breath (Heavy Flamer). May take a WS Transport. Howling Banshees: Elite choice, Squad size 5-10, May upgrade one to Exarch. Same cost. May Fleet of Foot. Banshee mask will give Int10 and will negate opponents cover and grenade abilities in the first round of combat. No grenade option. Exarch power: Acrobatics (squad counter charge USR), War Shout (Opponents take a moral test if failed opponents become WS1 for the first Assault phase). Exarch weapons: Power Weapon & Pistol, Executioner & pistol, Mirror Blades (paired power weapons +2A). Triskele & shuriken Pistol (web of skulls type weapon 12" S3 AP2 A3). May take a WS transport. Harlequins: Elite choice. WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I6 Ld9 Sv 5++, units size 5-10. Fleet of Foot, Shuriken pistol &CCW as standard EQ, Dance of Death(Furious Charge USR, Hit and Run USR). Harlequins still have flip belts which allow them to ignore difficult terrain tests. Holo-fields give 5++save. They may choose to upgrade CC weapons to the Harlequin Kiss per model (rending CC weapon) and 2 squad members can upgrade their pistols to Fusion pistol(6" Melta gun). They can upgrade one Squad member to a Shadow seer, Shadow seer will have “Veil of Tears” Physic power (use night fight rules but at 2d6X2 Rng) he will have Hallucinogen/Plasma grenades and allows the squad that he’s with to gain them also. Upgrade one member to a Troupe Master (Power Weapon or Harlequin Kiss free upgrade and +1A +1LD). Upgrade one member to a Death Jester, The Death Jester exchanges his weapons for a Shreiker Cannon (same stats as Shuriken Cannon and gains pinning). Rumor that they are metal models not plastic. Fast Attack: Shining Spears: Fast Attack choice, may upgrade one to be an Exarch. Unit size 3-5. Reduction of cost. Exarch Powers: Withdraw (squad hit and run USR), Expert Rider USR(squad). They are changing the Laser Lance, it can make an 6" S6 AP4 A1/Lance shot and then count as a S6 Power Weapons on the charge, they then revert to S3 CCW in the following rounds of CC. No grenade option. Exarch may upgrade TL Catapults to a Shuriken Cannon. Exarch weapons: Laser Lance, Power weapon, or Star Lance a S8 version of the Laser Lance. Warp Spiders: Fast Attack choice, Squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to be an Exarch. same costs. No grenade option. Exarch Powers: Surprise Assault (squad always deep strike like terminators), Withdraw (squad hit and run USR). Death Spinner (12" S6 AP- A2). Exarch weapon options: Powerblades, Twin Death Spinner (Assault4). Spinneret Rifle (18" S6 AP1 A1 Pinning). Swooping Hawks: Fast Attack choice, Squad size 5-10, may upgrade one to be an Exarch. same costs. They have their normal grenades plus gaining Haywire Grenades as standard EQ. They can still drop pie plate when deep striking. Exarch powers: Intercept (squad: gives ability to hit Vehicles in CC on a 4+ even against skimmers), and Skyleap (squad: in your movement phase you may choose to leave the table and go into reserves even if you where in CC, opponent may only 3" consolidate move, then next turn you roll your reserve roll to bring them back in the next movement phase). Exarch weapons: Lasblaster, power weapon & pistol, Hawks talon (24" S5 AP5 A3), Sunrifle (24" S3 AP5 A6 pinning). Vyper: Reduction in cost and is counted as being open topped still. Will still have TL catapults (may upgrade to Shuriken Cannon), but will have to pay for the heavy weapons turret option and vehicle upgrades. BS3. Heavy Support: Support Weapons: 1-3 weapons platforms per choice D-cannons – same cost, will now be a G24” small blast versions of the Wraith cannon. It will affect Vehicles the same even if any part of the template touches them now. Instant kill on a to wound roll of 6. Vibro Cannons – cost less, You are allowed to Roll to hit for each cannon, then pick which cannon you are firing from, then draw a 36" straight line no LOS and any units under that line are hit with d6 hits (S4+1 for each additional cannon that hits), vehicles are hit with one automatic glancing hit. Shadow Weaver – cost less. No changes otherwise. May add a Warlock to the unit. Dark Reapers: Heavy Support choice, may upgrade one of them to be an Exarch. Squad size 3-5, gain back 3+ armor save. Not much else for the squad. No grenade. Exarch weapons: Reaperlauncher, Shuriken Cannon, Missile Launcher, Tempest Launcher (G36" S4 AP3 H2 blast). Exarch powers(self only): Crack Shot and Fast Shot as they are now. May take a WS transport. Wraith Lord: Heavy Support only. Cost more + weapons. You will have 2 light weapons(Flamer/catapult) and 1to2 heavy weapons, requirement of 1 HW still, weapons cost a little more (if you take two of the same type of weapon it will count as TL). Str10 standard (monstrous creature). Wraithsword upgrade(is a type of spirit weapon) which can re-roll to hits in CC. He will be affected by Wraithsight, he will need to be within 6" of a Warlock/Farseer or 12" of a Spiritseer to act normal. Falcon: cost same as prism +weapon +upgrades. Pulse Laser is changing from H1d3 shots to H2 (no more random amount of shot weapons). BS3. May carry 6 models, states that it may not carry a Wraithguard unit. Fire Prism: cost same +upgrades. Changing the Fire Prism weapon to be a duel propose weapon, Anti-tank mode Rng 60” S9 AP2 Small Blast, Anti-infantry mode S5 AP4 Large Blast. If you take a second Fire Prism and its in LOS of the other you can decide to boost the first one, Anti-tank mode Rng 60” S10 AP1 Small blast Twin linked, Anti-infantry mode S6 AP3 large blast twin linked. It is said that you can add a third Prism to make the Anti-Infantry mode S7 AP2 LrgBlast TL. BS4 as standard now. War walkers: Heavy Support, costs same + weapons. No force field, is count as being closed topped. They are gaining scout USR ability. There was no rule that if two of same kind weapon thats it is counted as TL. Spirit stone is only vehicle upgrade. Still BS3. Heavy Weapons: (this is the listed price for the vehicle HW not the Platforms) Shuriken Cannon: as it is now but A3 Scatter Laser: as it is now but H4 Eldar Missile Launcher: Same stat line as it is Bright Lance: as it is now Starcannon: as it is now but H2 Pulse Laser: as it is now but H2 Fire Prism: As in its Vehicle description Special Characters: (that are in the book, may take as a HQ option) Eldrad Ulthran – Farseer of Ulthwe. T+1. All the Farseer Wargear and 3++ Rune Armor. Will have all 5 Farseer Powers & Ability Divination -Will be able to redeploy d3+1 units before the start of the game once setup is completed (Not just move them 6" now). Staff Still has the same effect as before. Prince Yrial – Autarch of Iyandan, +1I +1A. Force Field, Plasma Grenade. Special Weapon: Cursed spear of Twighlight (Singing spear type Power weapon, has an effect in last turn, making him have to make a Inv save or die), Eye of Wrath (S6 AP3 Lrg Blast centered from character, use once per game). Phoenix Lords – Their stats are WS+1 BS+2 A+1 2+save to what is listed for them now. Ability Disciples- (A squad of their shrine that they join gains Fearless and their abilities). PL's protected from insta-kill by a special rule "Eternal Warrior". May Fleet of Foot. Karandras- Weapons -Scorpion Bite (Manablasters +2A), Scorpion Chainsword, Scorpion Claw, Plasma Grenades Powers: Stalker, Shadow Strike, Stealth USR(can effect squad) Maugan Ra- Weapons- Maugetar (36" S6 AP5 A4 Rending/Pinning) Powers: Crack Shot(self), Fast Shot(self), Acute Senses USR(can effect squad) Jain Zar- Banshee Mask Weapons- Executioner, Silent Death(S5 Ap2 A3) Powers: Acrobatics(squad), Warshout(squad), Furious Charge USR(self only) Baharroth- Swooping Hawk wings, Grenade packs, Plasma & haywire Grenades, Hawks Talon, Power Weapon Powers: Skyleap(Squad), Intercept(squad), Hit an Run USR(can effect squad) Fuegan- Weapons- Firepike, Fire Axe( Str+1 Pw & vs. Vehicels Str+ 2d6 Pen), Melta Bombs Powers: Tank Hunter(squad), Crack Shot(self), Feel no Pain USR(self) Asurmen- Weapons: Avenger Gauntlets, Sword of Asur(Diresword with re-rolls to hits) Powers: Blade Storm(squad), Defend(squad), Battle Fate(self 4++ save) Wargear & Upgrades: Physic Wargear: Rune of Warding: Costs a little more, will make an opponents physic roll 3d6 and total them together with any total 12+ causing an POW test to them this ability has no range limit. Spirit stone: reduced almost 1/2 the cost, abilities same as now Rune of Witnessing: costs more now, abilities same as now Vehicle Upgrades: Spirit Stone: same cost, is changing to same as Extra armor (reduces Crew stunned to shaken result) Vectored Engines: costs more, changing to make fast vehicles traveling more then 6" count as moving as less then 6" so that they just settle to the ground. Star Engines: costs more, will have a fixed distance of 12". Holo-field: costs more, stats will stay the same CTM is not in the new Codex. Scythes is not in Codex No new Vehicle upgrades This is all I'm allowed to give, the point costs I've been told not to post. And if I post everything in the Codex, no one will buy it  PS. I repost this posting when it starts to fall behind in the thread and as I update it. </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="smalltext" valign="bottom" width="85%"> <table style="TABLE-LAYOUT: fixed" width="100%" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="smalltext" width="100%" colspan="2"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="smalltext" id="modified_1482292" valign="bottom">« Last Edit: October 2, 2006, 07:00:44 PM by Tamashii » </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
330
Post by: Mahu
Just as a small nitpick, the formatting on what the Autarch can have is awful (no offence to Lazarus or the one at 40K online that does a great job compiling the info.), here is Warseer's Brimstone version: The Autarch comes with the following weaponary as standard.
Shuriken pistol,plasma grenades,haywire grenades and forceshield (4+ invul save)
They can take one of the following at a points cost
- Swooping Hawk wings
- Spider Warp jump generator
- Eldar Jetbike.
One of the following at a points cost
- Mandiblaster
- Banshee Mask
A Autarch may be given one single handed weapon and one two handed weapon.
Single Handed
- Power Weapon
- Scorpion Chainsword
- Laser Lance (jetbike only)
Two Handed
- Avenger Shuriken Catapult
- Death Spinner
- Fusion Gun
- Lasblaster
- Reaper Launcher
Here are a few idea's I have for the optimum build for the Autarch: Best Close Combat Builds: Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Jetbike, with the Reaper Launcher as an option. Best Support Builds: Fusion Gun, Power Weapon, Spider Warp jump generator (Supports Warp Spiders) Mandiblaster, Power Weapon, Swooping Hawk wings with a Fusion Gun as an option. (Support Swopping Hawks) I like my first build a lot because he doesn't neccessarily need to be with a Spears unit to be effective. 5 Str. 6 Attacks on the charge is pretty good. Add a Reaper Launcher, and you have an additional 3 attacks and don't loose your charge ability. I also like the Swopping Hawk support version. I would cost a lot of points but Baharroth, Autarch, and Exarch leading 9 Hawks can own the battlefield. Lets run some numbers on that unit: (On the charge versus MEQ's) Baharroth - 5 attacks, 3.3 hit (66 %), 1.65 Power Weapon Wounds (50%) Autarch - 5 Attacks, 3.3 Hit (66%), 1.089 Power Weapon Wounds (33%) Exarch - 4 Attacks, 2.64 Hit (66%), .87 Power Weapon Wounds (33%) 9 Hawks - 18 Attacks, 11.88 Hit (66%), 3.902 Wounds, 1.29 Failed Saves(33%) = Total of 4.899 MEQ Deaths a turn, on a squad that can hit and run, or "veil", and do it again next turn. It is not the most effective unit, but would be hella fun to field.
1795
Post by: keezus
Laz: Thanks for the rather lengthy reply. I for one am hostile against GW more than any particular player. The biggest problem with the Eldar is threefold: 1. They were very overpowered in V2. This has led to the -perception- that the Eldar are a cheesed out list. They were significantly depowered through V3.
2. They are very sensitive to rules changes due to the fact that as Kyoto likes to point out - their special ruleset consists of very low T troops and lots of exceptions to the standard rules. - Major examples of how they were badly hurt in V4 include: Rapidfire - everyone else gained the extra shot at 12" and the Eldar, with the exception of spiders, got nothing while having to pay for the extra shot. Waveserpents went through lots of depowering from AV14 -> AV12 w/ shield -> AV12 w/ shield and no fire points, one access -> AV12 with shield, no fire points, one access, no LOS blocking, hurts occupants 75% of the time on crash! Shooting and assaulting different targets - no more tie-up assaults to save your expensive shooters. 3. On top of this, GW insists on having sub-par units - which reinforces the perception that the Eldar are a cheesy army, since the winning armies just load up on the effective stuff. So. With this in mind, I had high hopes that they'd be able to make a more balanced list in terms of power distribution. Instead, what seems to have happened is: 1. Starcannons are broke. We'll make them 1/3 less effective.
2. Wraithlords are broke. We'll raise the price.
3. Shuriken catapults on guardians don't work - we'll leave these the same!
4. We'll tweak the wraithguard and warwalkers while not addressing what was bad about them in the first place (low no. of shots and high cost / low survivability respectively)
5. Dire Avengers, Jetbikes, Shining spears and Fireprisms didn't sell at all, so we'll tweak them and make them awesome!
6. We made a huge mistake with the Librarian so Farseers need a way to be able to cast powers so we'll put a bunch of new rules here too. So... for the average goober nosed kid playing Eldar, it is a no-brainer what is effective and what is not in the new list. All this does is reinforce the stereotype that the Eldar generals are min-maxing cheese monkeys... since having a diverse mixture of units don't alow for the proper synergy to make the army work - either due to differing movement speeds, incompatible strength on attacks, or just plain lack of HTH or shooting punch. Ok. But I digress. The game is an ever changing landscape - and I accept that. A few things jump out at me here: 1. We both agree that a bunch of redone units still suck donkey balls and we'd be fools to use them. Examples of these might include such stalwarts such as: Wraithguard and Support Batteries. 2. We both agree that the heavy support tanks are good. 3. We both agree that bikes and spears are good. 4. We both agree that firedragons in a taxi are good. Since we agree that heavy suport tanks are good, are they better than the other choices? They are loads more resilent than the other choices, dish out less MEQ power than reapers, but more than the other support choices and are LOADS faster. So would you agree that they make the other heavy support obsolete? I certainly won't miss not having support batteries, warwalkers or even poor maligned mr. wraithlord in V4. How about fast attack? Spiders get more shots / attacks at full size, but point for point, the spears are more versatile. How about vypers? The reduction in shots of the starcannon makes them less versatile than spears due to its low AV and loss of CTM. (I'll give that the scatterlaser is increased in power, but its hitting power still doesn't equal the new starcannon in MEQ stopping power - whch in my opinion, is more versatile). Hawks? They're worse than spiders, hands down. How about elites? Are wraithguard better than firedragons? How about banshees or scorpions? Both of these choices are terrible compared to the Harlequins, the premiere assault foot units. How about troops? The bikes kick out more firepower than avengers, have a greater threat range, are more resilent, and have better options. Guardians are almost a "why bother" proposition, as they are just caddies for that move and fire gun - which makes it a very expensive couple of shots. Rangers were not all that good in V3 until after the disruption table, due to the ridiculous overpricing of sniper equipment by GW. The problem doesn't lie in the fact that the Eldar dex is nerfed... it is that it is a no-brainer as to what an Eldar army should be composed of. If you notice - all the good units are standalone with the exception of the Firedragons (which need their taxi) - they are all fairly resilent, and move fast without a transport. Other than these, the new dex reads like a hodge podge of cool ideas, and nifty units that don't work well with one another due to the fiddly-ness of transported units. The designers saw fit to give the base eldar dude T3 Sv4 and then equipped them with range 12 weapons, put the HTH guys in "we must delay our action for one turn and let the enemy react" vehicles and made a bunch of stuff with otherwise good models unused due to poor synergy or insertion of an overwhelmingly better choice in the same unit type category. That's (IMHO) why a lot of Eldar players are hostile.
330
Post by: Mahu
Well thought out post keezus.
True that some units in the list will need a lot of tactical finess to make work. Eldar will be very much a combined arms support army. There might still be room for Gaurdians, Hawks, Banshees, Scorpions, etc. in my list because I think they can still be useful if supported properly. Heck, I will still use cheap Vipers for scoring purposes.
Your arguement is better though out than "these units suck so the codex sucks". I like the changes and personally looking forward to the codex. I don't think there is one bad unit in the codex, but that is just me. There are many "ok" units with a few "exceptional" units, which is the bases of a combined arms force. I fear that players who maximize on the "exceptional" units might be on the short end of the stick because they have too many points in high cost fragile units.
But alas, all this will be hased out in the new codex, when people start posting army lists.
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Post by: wolfman101
Depending on how much the vibrocannon costs now, I see alot of potential for it to hold down a flank now that it doesnt need LOS. I would say 30pts a gun or less would make them cost effective in the right armies. 20pts or less would make them a decent choice for every army.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> keezus </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Laz: Thanks for the rather lengthy reply No problem. I for one am hostile against GW more than any particular player. I have as much or more reason to be hostile towards GW than most players I know. Thorugh 20 years of playing thi game I watched my RT guard become so obsolete that my collection wan't even legal. I watched my sqauts disapers as well as my genestealer cult. My harlequins gathered dust for years & years......I compare GW to Privateer Press and can only wonder why they don't try to be more like them when dealing with rules issues etc..................However, I happen to like very much the potential of what they are doing in this new codex. 1. They were very overpowered in V2. This has led to the -perception- that the Eldar are a cheesed out list.' I couldn't agree more here. I still have to nueter my list for fear of getting slammed on comp while I face some marine lists whos fluff is based on the fact they are guarding a speeder abd assault cannon mantinience facility. (lol) Rapidfire - everyone else gained the extra shot at 12" and the Eldar, with the exception of spiders, got nothing while having to pay for the extra shot. Agreed. I brought this up to Phill Kelly at a games day. However, despite this "nerf" in 4th edition my tourney record in 4th edition is 40-7-4. Must not really be that bad of a nerf.... Waveserpents went through lots of depowering from AV14 -> AV12 w/ shield -> AV12 w/ shield and no fire points, one access -> AV12 with shield, no fire points, one access, no LOS blocking, hurts occupants 75% of the time on crash! Serpents certianly went down in power (transport assault rules affected them as well). I still have pretty good success with them though. They certianly can be expensive but the mobility and TL option is too good to not use in games. The new codex makes them better as well... Shooting and assaulting different targets - no more tie-up assaults to save your expensive shooters. This affected lots of different units in many different armies.... 3. On top of this, GW insists on having sub-par units - which reinforces the perception that the Eldar are a cheesy army, since the winning armies just load up on the effective stuff. It is a perception that I still struggle to break. (lol) 1. Starcannons are broke. We'll make them 1/3 less effective. Yes, we did lose a shot but gained soo much more. I lose a total of 2 shots in my GT list with this change......I gained far more than that in return. 2. Wraithlords are broke. We'll raise the price. Even I recognize that the lord was slightly underpriced for what you got. Other things in the codex went down considerably though.... 3. Shuriken catapults on guardians don't work - we'll leave these the same! I was dissapointed at first but GW needs a reason for you to buy avengers right? I would have been happy to have my guardians with lasguns instead but it's nice to keep a theme for the army right? 4. We'll tweak the wraithguard and warwalkers while not addressing what was bad about them in the first place (low no. of shots and high cost / low survivability respectively) Foy Iyanden players they got a pretty good boost overall. Before, the wraithguard were only good at nailing MC's or big tanks like raiders or monoliths becasue their ability to wound troops was pretty lame. Now they do it on a 2+ so will shred terminators with relative ease. Higher toughness means they'll laugh at small arms fire especially with conceal / fortune. Keep in mind with seers being able to throw 2 powers a turn it give more flexibility as well. Warwalkers are no longer opentopped which helps to keep them alive. also they have the scout rule....will they replace my faclons? Not in competitive play as I know what lists I'll be going against. 5. Dire Avengers, Jetbikes, Shining spears and Fireprisms didn't sell at all, so we'll tweak them and make them awesome! Which we can add to the collection of other good units. That's more choice than we have had for a long time. 6. We made a huge mistake with the Librarian so Farseers need a way to be able to cast powers so we'll put a bunch of new rules here too.
Actually, I don't think we received anything that helps us cast so much as something that makes it harder for the enemy to cast....(and much more dangerous) So... for the average goober nosed kid playing Eldar, it is a no-brainer what is effective and what is not in the new list. All this does is reinforce the stereotype that the Eldar generals are min-maxing cheese monkeys... since having a diverse mixture of units don't alow for the proper synergy to make the army work - either due to differing movement speeds, incompatible strength on attacks, or just plain lack of HTH or shooting punch. I don't think that it has to be that way. In saturday's list I had 5 different aspect units (avengers, reapers, banshees, dragons, scorpions). You may not be able to do that particular list but you can still have plenty of diversity while still winning. 1. We both agree that a bunch of redone units still suck donkey balls and we'd be fools to use them. Examples of these might include such stalwarts such as: Wraithguard and Support Batteries. I'm sort of interested in the vibro cannon if the no LOS is true. Wraithguard I'm still iffy on as they buffed the dragons....I would have loved to had a sqaud saturday as I faced 3 monoliths..lol 2. We both agree that the heavy support tanks are good. 3. We both agree that bikes and spears are good. 4. We both agree that firedragons in a taxi are good. Complete agreement. Since we agree that heavy suport tanks are good, are they better than the other choices? They are loads more resilent than the other choices, dish out less MEQ power than reapers, but more than the other support choices and are LOADS faster. So would you agree that they make the other heavy support obsolete? I certainly won't miss not having support batteries, warwalkers or even poor maligned mr. wraithlord in V4. Better is a relevant term. I used 2 falcons and a wraithlord in my RTT list saturday. I use my lord as a gun platform in cover (usually 4++ if I can). This makes for a very resilient unit and although it is not as tough as a falcon it affords me at least 90 more points to spend on something else. In addition it provides a different role than the falcon does. (counter assault & guardiang of units etc.) I think reapers will be great in the new codex. a 3+ save combined with cover & fortune means that your opponent needs to throw alot at them to kill them. Doom a unit and watch them really cry... I'm still iffy on walkers but only due to my mexh preferences... How about fast attack? Spiders get more shots / attacks at full size, but point for point, the spears are more versatile. How about vypers? The reduction in shots of the starcannon makes them less versatile than spears due to its low AV and loss of CTM. (I'll give that the scatterlaser is increased in power, but its hitting power still doesn't equal the new starcannon in MEQ stopping power - whch in my opinion, is more versatile). Hawks? They're worse than spiders, hands down. I like the spears over the spiders but could use both. I think vypers will sit the shel in favor of the other choices. My vypers won't even be competiting with fast attack slots for the points spent...mine will be traded for jetbike units. If I use a vyper at all it will be a scatter laser / shuriken cannon combo. Hawks are worse than spiders at somethings and better at others. Spiders can't drop a monlith or lanraider... How about elites? Are wraithguard better than firedragons? How about banshees or scorpions? Both of these choices are terrible compared to the Harlequins, the premiere assault foot units I give the dragons the nod over the wraithguard....cheaper with increased str? (wow) Scorpions receive a nerf and banshees will beninfit greatly from doom. harlequins are great but they are also the only foot unit I'd consider... How about troops? The bikes kick out more firepower than avengers, have a greater threat range, are more resilent, and have better options. Guardians are almost a "why bother" proposition, as they are just caddies for that move and fire gun - which makes it a very expensive couple of shots. Rangers were not all that good in V3 until after the disruption table, due to the ridiculous overpricing of sniper equipment by GW. I'm liking bikes and avengers. I started including avegers in my RTT list about 4 tourneys ago for the colour and comp scoring. They shined sometimes but then sometimes died. Now, they get a substantial boost so I can't help but to think I'll do better with them than before...Patfinders with doom could be sick.... The problem doesn't lie in the fact that the Eldar dex is nerfed... it is that it is a no-brainer as to what an Eldar army should be composed of. If you notice - all the good units are standalone with the exception of the Firedragons (which need their taxi) - they are all fairly resilent, and move fast without a transport. Other than these, the new dex reads like a hodge podge of cool ideas, and nifty units that don't work well with one another due to the fiddly-ness of transported units. I could say the same of many armies out there. we tend to see only a few varient list builds for certian codex lists in tourney play. The designers saw fit to give the base eldar dude T3 Sv4 and then equipped them with range 12 weapons, put the HTH guys in "we must delay our action for one turn and let the enemy react" vehicles and made a bunch of stuff with otherwise good models unused due to poor synergy or insertion of an overwhelmingly better choice in the same unit type category. I'll agree that they made it harder but then again they had to. Before, I wouldn't even lose any games. (lol) Where is the fun in that? there are still plenty who firmly belive that eldar are overpowered to this day even when running fluffy lists. Btw, I much enjoyed your post. well done. Lazarus.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Just as a small nitpick, the formatting on what the Autarch can have is awful (no offence to Lazarus or the one at 40K online that does a great job compiling the info.), here is Warseer's Brimstone version: No worries. I was too lazy to reformat it. Thanks for making it a little clearer. I like my first build a lot because he doesn't neccessarily need to be with a Spears unit to be effective. 5 Str. 6 Attacks on the charge is pretty good. Add a Reaper Launcher, and you have an additional 3 attacks and don't loose your charge ability.
I like this one too. With the jetbikes ability to shoot and scoot it could be very Tau like (in laymans terms in means annoying lol) Lazarus.
45
Post by: Kikkoman
why not give him a mandiblaster instead of banshee mask with the laser lance? one more attack, and not much can strike before i6 (or is it i7?)
184
Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Posted By Mahu on 10/06/2006 1:26 PM
Well thought out post keezus.
True that some units in the list will need a lot of tactical finess to make work. Eldar will be very much a combined arms support army. There might still be room for Gaurdians, Hawks, Banshees, Scorpions, etc. in my list because I think they can still be useful if supported properly. Heck, I will still use cheap Vipers for scoring purposes.
Your arguement is better though out than "these units suck so the codex sucks". I like the changes and personally looking forward to the codex. I don't think there is one bad unit in the codex, but that is just me. There are many "ok" units with a few "exceptional" units, which is the bases of a combined arms force. I fear that players who maximize on the "exceptional" units might be on the short end of the stick because they have too many points in high cost fragile units.
But alas, all this will be hased out in the new codex, when people start posting army lists.
Umm. No.
Basic problems with your arguments (and there are many) Problem #1 - Many of the units that are being considered are neither high cost, or fragile. As a matter of fact, contrary to fluff, the best model in the new codex is Falcon, or Prisms. They are the most resilient models in the entire game.
Many of the other choices are lowered costs (Fire Dragons, Shining Spears, Jetbikes) and more resilient (Jetbikes & Spears). The only high cost fragile unit that is being suggested for competitive is a tentative endorsement of the Harlequins.
Indeed, the units that you are suggesting for "diversity" are the high cost fragile ones (banshees, hawks, Guardians)
Note - Guardians may be relatively cheap, but they went up in price and since 4th ed have gone down in effectiveness and survivability due to move & RF. This is compounded by raising hte min size of the unit.
So it would seem that you are the only one suggesting using high cost fragile units. Others are suggesting the opposite, use the cheap survivable units.
Problem #2 - The old standby of "tactical finesse". The argument that just won't die. Simple equation. Add the "tactical finesse" it takes to play an Eldar army in your style, to a more survivable army and you get greater success. To say that we just don't understand how it would work because it requires "tactical finesse" is silly. It also implies that there are no/few GT players who have this "tactical finesse" as for some reason, it still can't beat the top lists. Also, Vypers are not the best scorers anymore. For nearly the same cost you can get 3 Jetbikes, which are a troops choice, can move 24" and are more difficult to make unscoring. You can even give them a shuriken cannon, and they can cause trouble without exposing themselves to enemy fire, as opposed to the Vypers, which get to hide or pop out and die. Vypers are still a good choice, just not so much for cheap scoring unit. *EDIT* One thing I do agree on. Keezus did have a well thought out post.
383
Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By Lazarus on 10/06/2006 4:15 PM I like my first build a lot because he doesn't neccessarily need to be with a Spears unit to be effective. 5 Str. 6 Attacks on the charge is pretty good. Add a Reaper Launcher, and you have an additional 3 attacks and don't loose your charge ability.
I like this one too. With the jetbikes ability to shoot and scoot it could be very Tau like (in laymans terms in means annoying lol)
Not quite. The Reaper Launcher won't be mounted on the bike, so you might be able to shoot and move 6" in the assault phase, but if you move in the next movement phase, you won't be shooting that turn. But even that 6" is before your opponent's next movement phase, which makes it significantly less valuable, as you are unable to react to your opponent's movement from last turn. "But infantry can't move that fast!" you cry. Well, in that case, why even mount him on a bike? Don't get me wrong. If we were were able to mount the RL on a bike, I'd be all over it, but unless I've missed something, that's just not going to happen.
3574
Post by: Eldardude
Wow, very nice I can't wait! Yeah the Harlequins make there return. >
3150
Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> The Happy Anarchist </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Also, Vypers are not the best scorers anymore. For nearly the same cost you can get 3 Jetbikes, which are a troops choice, can move 24" and are more difficult to make unscoring. You can even give them a shuriken cannon, and they can cause trouble without exposing themselves to enemy fire, as opposed to the Vypers, which get to hide or pop out and die. Vypers are still a good choice, just not so much for cheap scoring unit. Agreed. In order to keep my mech Biel-Tan theme in the new codex I'm forced to either have two units or dire avengers or use some jetbikes to satisfy my troop requirement. I have no problem with using 2 units of avengers except for the fact I can't really afford the points to put both units in serpents to keep the mounted theme. With that in mind I'll be taking some bike units much as you propose. Since Farseers in this new codex will likely be bike mounted due to the new FAQ regarding psychic powers in transports this gives them a few different units to hide in if need be. Fortune / turbo boost is great fun! Lazarus.
3150
Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> bigchris1313 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> The Reaper Launcher won't be mounted on the bike, so you might be able to shoot and move 6" in the assault phase, but if you move in the next movement phase, you won't be shooting that turn. I thought the same as well but there is plenty of talk on several forums about this....perhaps someone knows something that I do not? Lazarus.
383
Post by: bigchris1313
Lazarus, I wish it were true, but this is just wishful thinking. People on Warseer theorized that it could be Assault 2 so that they could use it with a WSJJ or SH Wings. None of the rumors we've seen have said anything about being able to mount it on the bike.
I hate to be the pessimist, but it just won't happen, just as characters on their bikes won't be able to upgrade the TL catapults to a Shuricannon. Won't happen.
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Post by: Lazarus
No worries then. The close combat option seems the best way to go I suppose.... Lazarus.
1795
Post by: keezus
Laz: Just a few more comments on your latest posts. I'm not convinced that Doom is all that effective. I posted a math-hammer breakdown of the expected results from 1 doom and it shows that Rangers are the worst beneficiaries of Doom (too few shots), followed by Swooping Hawks (too low strength), followed by Avengers and then Bike Guardians. Doom is largely wasted on S6+ weapons, since these don't need the reroll to wound. The other thing is I am not sure if you can stack Dooms. Since Doom gives you a reroll to wound - If I recall correctly there are currently no rerolls of a reroll in the game, so it seems fairly certain from the rumour that it won't stack (esp considering you can't double-fortune a unit). Lazarus wrote: Fortune / turbo boost is great fun! And finally affordable! My biggest beef with the Avengers is that it is almost mandatory to buy them those taxis to get them into position. For an extra 4 points a man (or 40 for a full squad), you get a Firedragon, which makes better use of the points spent on the taxi. If a mounted Avenger squad came out to ~ 180-200 points, I'd be right on the bandwagon with you... but as it stands, a full unit of avengers in a flying space-taxi with an exarch and some 'urty bitz costs as much as a 9 man jetbike squad with 3 cannon (and maybe a warlock, depending on what you put on the exarch and space taxi). Just like you said, fortune on bikes is just rude. So you have a similarly fast moving unit, twin linked gives you 2(3/4)(1/2)(1/3) or 1/4 MEQ per bike, which is not so bad when a bladestorming Avenger gives you 3(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) 1/3 MEQ. - The cannons swing the equation back in the favour of the Guardians however... as they can also harm light infantry and high toughness monstrous creatures. Add in a warlock with a spear and you have a versatile, fast moving, light infantry killing unit which can also harm tanks in a pinch. Compared to this, Dire Avengers are well... uh... Let's just say it will be hard to convince me to take them over bikes. In fact, the only arguement for Dire Avengers is that you only need $100Cdn to build a mounted Avenger squad and you need $200Cdn to build a bike squad. So... I think the issue here is, can you afford the better unit.
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Post by: Lazarus
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal"> Posted By</td> <td> keezus </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> I'm not convinced that Doom is all that effective. I posted a math-hammer breakdown of the expected results from 1 doom and it shows that Rangers are the worst beneficiaries of Doom (too few shots), followed by Swooping Hawks (too low strength), followed by Avengers and then Bike Guardians. Doom is largely wasted on S6+ weapons, since these don't need the reroll to wound. From what I understand doom is applied to the enemy unit and allows for wounds to be re-rolled. With this in mind a few rangers (who normally wound on 4+) may not seem that effective by themsleves but added up with other units firing it will become so. I'll agree that doom for str6 weapons against normal infantry is not an effective use of it but what about on high tougness targets? (like MC's) The other thing is I am not sure if you can stack Dooms. Since Doom gives you a reroll to wound - If I recall correctly there are currently no rerolls of a reroll in the game, so it seems fairly certain from the rumour that it won't stack (esp considering you can't double-fortune a unit). I wouldnt want to stack them anyways. I much prefer the idea of dooming two targets a turn while my army lays into those units with it's firepower. I'm especially looking forward to doom when combined with banshees or harlequins. My biggest beef with the Avengers is that it is almost mandatory to buy them those taxis to get them into position. For an extra 4 points a man (or 40 for a full squad), you get a Firedragon, which makes better use of the points spent on the taxi. If a mounted Avenger squad came out to ~ 180-200 points, I'd be right on the bandwagon with you... but as it stands, a full unit of avengers in a flying space-taxi with an exarch and some 'urty bitz costs as much as a 9 man jetbike squad with 3 cannon (and maybe a warlock, depending on what you put on the exarch and space taxi). Different tools for different jobs though. I'll agree that the firedragons are good against MEQ's etc. but the avengers serve a different role. Additionally the avengers should do better in closecombat as well. I include avengers as they are fluffy and people will cry about them less. If I found that I was actually losing my games due to them it might change my mind. The avengers actually won me one of my GT games at the necro (lol)....now they get better. Just like you said, fortune on bikes is just rude. So you have a similarly fast moving unit, twin linked gives you 2(3/4)(1/2)(1/3) or 1/4 MEQ per bike, which is not so bad when a bladestorming Avenger gives you 3(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) 1/3 MEQ. - The cannons swing the equation back in the favour of the Guardians however... as they can also harm light infantry and high toughness monstrous creatures. Add in a warlock with a spear and you have a versatile, fast moving, light infantry killing unit which can also harm tanks in a pinch. All good reasons I'll be using jetbikes to help satisfy my troop slots along with the one unit of avengers (for looks I suppose lol) Compared to this, Dire Avengers are well... uh... Let's just say it will be hard to convince me to take them over bikes. In fact, the only arguement for Dire Avengers is that you only need $100Cdn to build a mounted Avenger squad and you need $200Cdn to build a bike squad. Price is certianly an issue but players will spend the money if the unit is viable. I'll still take the avengers for now but playtesting may encourage me to replace them with more bikes....it's just hard to be fluffy and get good comp in a biel tan style list by avoiding the most common aspect.... In a non comp situation I can easily see not using the avengers. A minimum of 3 out of every 4 of my opponents are MEQ's.....dragons fill that nicely and now instant kill most characters...
Lazarus.
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Post by: Mahu
Lazarus, I wish it were true, but this is just wishful thinking. People on Warseer theorized that it could be Assault 2 so that they could use it with a WSJJ or SH Wings. None of the rumors we've seen have said anything about being able to mount it on the bike.
I hate to be the pessimist, but it just won't happen, just as characters on their bikes won't be able to upgrade the TL catapults to a Shuricannon. Won't happen. I don't understand what you are saying. Assuming the Autarchs Reaper launcher is a heavy weapon there still should be no problem. It's two handed so he can still take the one handed Lazer Lance. Because he is on a bike he can move and shoot his two handed heavy weapon, and additionally because he is an Eldar Jetbike, he can move 6" in the Assault phase regardless of what he shot. So my idea, if you can get the jump on a Space Marine Squad, you can get 1.64 casulties from the Reaper and 2.19 Casualties from Charging the unit. Not to mention if you combine him with a Spear squad and he gains hit and run as well as provideing additional shooting support. So what does mounting it on the bike have anything to do with it?
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Post by: Banesword
You have to have the weapon ON the bike to have it count as stationary.
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Posted By Mahu on 10/07/2006 9:05 AM Lazarus, I wish it were true, but this is just wishful thinking. People on Warseer theorized that it could be Assault 2 so that they could use it with a WSJJ or SH Wings. None of the rumors we've seen have said anything about being able to mount it on the bike.
I hate to be the pessimist, but it just won't happen, just as characters on their bikes won't be able to upgrade the TL catapults to a Shuricannon. Won't happen. Because he is on a bike he can move and shoot his two handed heavy weapon,
So what does mounting it on the bike have anything to do with it?
There is your problem right there. You can't move and shoot with a heavy weapon because you are mounted on a bike. A heavy weapon mounted on a bike can move and shoot, but much like Space Marine Bikers get screwed because they can't figure out how to mount their special weapons, the Autarch armed with Reaper Launcher is the same way.
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Post by: bigchris1313
Posted By Banesword on 10/07/2006 9:11 AM
You have to have the weapon ON the bike to have it count as stationary.
Thank you. Apparently my exhorations last night were ineffective.
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Post by: Mahu
Here is the rule I see:
BGB p. 54 under Shooting Phase:
"Each Jetbike in a unit may fire with one weapon for each rider on the bike. If rapid fire weapons are mounted on a jetbike, then they are allowed to fire once up to maximum range even if the bike moved. In addition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the jetbike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn."
So, unless I am reading this wrong, or I am still missing something, I still don't see any problems. The only time it mentions having to be mounted on the bike is rapid fire weapons and that is only if you want to fire max range. Whether or not you fire a heavy or rapid fire weapon you can still assault, period. And an Eldar jetbike can always move 6" in the Assault phase as well. Also note that it doesn't say that you count as stationary. it only says you may still assault.
Remember this is a Jetbike, not a regular bike, so the Space Marine comparison need not apply. (Besides, if you read those rules, they read almost the same as the jetbike rules).
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Post by: The Happy Anarchist
Go go GW shabby rules writing!
Unless there is more, it appears that the combo is possible.
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Post by: Lazarus
At least I know I'm not crazy now...lol Lazarus
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Post by: bigchris1313
Holy God, I think you're all... right?
"In addition, heavy weapons and rapid-fire weapons may be fired if the unit moves..." (BGB 54)
Wow. I'm eating crow tonight and my Autarch can JSJ with a reaper launcher.
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Post by: Therion-
JSJ? What's that?
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Post by: Hellfury
Jump-Shoot-Jump?
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Post by: bigchris1313
Yes. (It can only be done with units that get a move in the assault phase).
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Post by: Mahu
Also, here are my choices for the Bike Autarch:
Standard 40k:
MandiBlaster, Laser Lance, Reaper Launcher, Bike
CoD:
Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Bike
In regular 40K, the JSJ Reaper Launcher is appialing but in CoD, the Reaper looses it necessity, I would rather have a character that can assist in rioting out units in buildings.
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Post by: winterman
Why the banshee mask? You do realize they changed how the mask works (ignore terrain and gernades in close combast)? Your Autarch has plasma gernades for free and won't be in terrain very often (being on a jetbike) so why not take the scorp mask?
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Post by: Mahu
Your right, if he gets Plasma Free there is no need for a Banshee mask, even in CoD. I would rather have the extra attack.
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Post by: Kikkoman
More theme lists could be done with this new codex, and by that I mean Rogue Trader style Pirate Eldar, the inclusion of Yriel sorta encourages that, and the Phoenix Lords being regular HQ choices.
Notably, troop cheap jetbikes, the Autarch, and useful Dire Avengers.
Pirates ahoy.
There are too many good choices for Fast Attack now though...
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Post by: Hellfury
I agree with Kikkoman. I was pouring over my copy of rogue trader for ideas and it seems the pirate princes have come to the fore.
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Post by: Droopz
IM building and painting a Karandus themed war host. Plently of scorpions and a few harlies that joined up in his web-way travels. Might not be the most practical style army for winning battles, but it should look good and be fun to play with.
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Post by: Kikkoman
Posted By Hellfury on 10/09/2006 3:35 PM
I agree with Kikkoman. I was pouring over my copy of rogue trader for ideas and it seems the pirate princes have come to the fore.
Anything notable in Rogue Trader? I was thinking a 'nothing slower than 12" a turn' list, emphasis on shooting. Jetbikes and skimmers, possibly hawks and spiders
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Post by: nyarlathotep667
The orginal "Book of the Astronomicon", the first ever 40k supplement, had an awesome Eldar Pirates list that let you have all sorts of goodness, including rogue Space Marines, human priates and even ork mercs.
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Post by: Hellfury
Posted By Kikkoman on 10/09/2006 9:44 PM Posted By Hellfury on 10/09/2006 3:35 PM
I agree with Kikkoman. I was pouring over my copy of rogue trader for ideas and it seems the pirate princes have come to the fore.
Anything notable in Rogue Trader? I was thinking a 'nothing slower than 12" a turn' list, emphasis on shooting. Jetbikes and skimmers, possibly hawks and spiders
Not really to be honest, just ideas. Everything in Rogue trader is so outdated that it isnt even funny. Especially when every race shared weaponry. Eldar with Lascannons and distortion cannons (the good ones) were rampant then. Eldar nowadays are what slaan were in the RT book. Warrior paths and such. The eldar from the RT book is a slight inbetween of dark eldar and eldar. The fluff lacks refinememnt, but still the most fun read around.
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Post by: Toreador
and Zoats. They had Zoats....
(I still have my zoats)
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Post by: motowookiee
Mad Props to GW for showing the Eldar some love.  I'm glad to see the changes in point structure, will add more models and make games more versatile, while keeping the whole Elite army theme going strong. 
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Post by: yakface
Motowookie,
Please do not post into threads that are more than a month old unless you have absolutely vital information to add to the existing conversation.
When it comes to a two year old thread discussing Codex Eldar rumors, there simply isn't any need to do so.
If you want to talk about the current Eldar codex, there are plenty of ongoing discussions in the tactics, army list and fluff forums.
Please do not do this again. If you have any doubt, feel free to PM a moderator and ask before you dig an old thread up.
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