Just about every unit is broken down here with more rumors and changes.

Some chaps in Germany saw the new Codex, and they apparently have good memories.  Thanks to Nexto (on WarSeer), DarkWarrior and theHive (on gw-fanworld) for this lot:

"Ok, here is the stuff from DarkWarrior and theHive from gw-fanworld.de, updates and clarifications will follow soon, everything is from memory and after fast reading, i hope they got everything right, but as usual, dont bet money on everything you read, better ask again ^^


Avatar:
BS 5,
3+Sv/4+Inv,
immune against Melta, Flamer and HFlamer,
every Eldar in 12" is fearless, NO +1 on the result of cc as before
everything else as before
can fire a melta
Rest wie gehabt.


Farseer
T3
Runes work as rumoured: Farseer takes 3 dice and has to choose the 2 lowest, enemy has to take 3 dice and takes ALL!
3+ Save against perils from the warp
Wraith(?)stones, ShuPi and Witchblade are included

Autarch:
+1 on strategy rating
cant say anything specific about the possible combinations, because those were not in the unit descriptions but in the armylist itself and Maik (note: germany's gw boss, iirc) bugged us to go on faster.

Scorpions:
3+ Save
Str 3 + 1 because of the chainsword
Biting Blade and Scorpions Claw for the Exarch
Exarch Skills: Infiltrate (Stalker) and Move through Cover (Shadowstrike)

Banshees:
As Usual
Exarchskills: the usual (acrobatic and warshout)
Bansheemaks does the following: enemy must make a ld test and if he fails gets WS-1
the mirrorblades work like energyblades
executioner works as usual
can get a web of skulls

Warpspiders
no changes seen while quickly looking at them
Exarch can get a third weapon (note: the other two are deathspinner and dual deathspinner). the profile of the 3rd is: (he is not really sure here) "18 S6 AP1 (thats for sure) Assault1 Pinning

Dark Reapers:
3+ Sv
reaperlauncher as before
exarch can get a tempest launcher (again not 100% sure) G36" S8 AP1 Pinning

Feuerdragons:
Unfortunately not seen if the Sv got better
Exarch can get a Dragons Breath --> Hv Flamer
Fusionblaster: 12" S8 AP1
Firepike 18" S8 AP1

Falcon warriors (dont know how they are called in english)
grenademagazines do not change
can leap, which means get off the table and redeepstrike but have to make an reservethrow. 2nd turn on 4+, third on 3+, etc
Sunrifle: Assault 6 S3 or 4 (not sure) and AP6.

Dire Avengers:
18" Catapult
Shurikenstorm (3 shoots) exarchskill
Defense Exarchskill
"shield": 5+Inv in CC

Guardians:
10+ Guardians
2 Guardians can crew a platform, if those die, the platform is destroyed

Ranger:
BS 4 (*LOL)
can be upgraded to pathfinders
--> +2 on coverthrow uand AP1 at 5/6
everything else as before

Wraithlord:
Wraithsight
T8
no 0-1
Can reroll to hit AND to wound with his blade (cool)


Wraithguard
T6
Wraithsight

Harlies:
are Elite
not time for further reading here, sorry


vehicles
same problem as with Harlies
Illum Zar has comboshot and 2 firemodi
BS4 as standard
Weaponprofile as rumoured
Comboshoot raises S by one and AP becomes 1 better, did not see that the blast becomes ordonance blast

special characters:
Yriel as Autarch
Eldrad
Phoenixkings with standard profile and their specific special rules

Codexdesign goes back to second edition:

background part (quite big)
Unit description with profile and special rule but without equipment options
then equipment part
at last: a compact army list
all special characters are directly in the armylist, no separate pages for special characters any more, this means, the arm list looks like this:

Avatar
Yriel
Farseer
Eldrad
and so on"

One thing I noticed - the WraitLord now suffers from Wraithsight!?!?!  This,shall we say, really sucks. Strange that the Big Guy needs to be baby-sat.

Posted By GrimTeef 08/07/2006 12:53 AM

Just about every unit is broken...

That's all the info I needed.

j/k Thanks for the data Grim!

Posted By warlordty 08/07/2006 11:57 AM
Woah.

Autrach with warp generator, banshee mask, power sword and reaper launcher.

SCORE

ignore wraithsight if within 6" of a friendly psycher, or 12" of a spiritseer (warlock upgrade)

They can take one of the following at a points cost

- Swooping Hawk wings
- Spider Warp jump generator
- Eldar Jetbike.

One of the following at a points cost
- Mandiblaster
- Banshee Mask

A Autarch may be given one single handed weapon and one two handed weapon.

Single Handed
- Power Weapon
- Scorpion Chainsword
- Laser Lance (jetbike only)

Two Handed
- Avenger Shuriken Catapult
- Death Spinner
- Fusion Gun
- Lasblaster
- Reaper Launcher

Posted By GrimTeef 08/07/2006 9:48 PM
Yak, everything I've heard about the Holofield has indicated no changes.

Good god. I guess no one at GW has seen the 3 Falcon army w/ Holo-fields flying around recently? Or the fact that by running the numbers it's statistically the most durable vehicle in the game? Add into that the fact that it is fast moving, carries some really fearsome firepower, can carry a unit and is a scoring unit itself, it has to be said that its probably the favorite for best unit in 40k.

And they're making it cheaper?!? This really doesn't make any sense.

Oh well.

Posted By yakface 08/07/2006 9:53 PM

Posted By GrimTeef 08/07/2006 9:48 PM
Yak, everything I've heard about the Holofield has indicated no changes.

Good god. I guess no one at GW has seen the 3 Falcon army w/ Holo-fields flying around recently? Or the fact that by running the numbers it's statistically the most durable vehicle in the game? Add into that the fact that it is fast moving, carries some really fearsome firepower, can carry a unit and is a scoring unit itself, it has to be said that its probably the favorite for best unit in 40k.

And they're making it cheaper?!? This really doesn't make any sense.

Oh well.

 

I really don't belive that holofields were the big problem on the falcon.  It was the spiritstone holofield combo that made the tank invulnerable.  Every weaker hit was downgraded or eliminated by the spiritstones.  Now that you can no longer eliminate the crew shaken result the falcon won't be as big a danger as it was before.  I won't constantly be shooting anymore.  And if it just floats around not shooting it won't be as valuable.  Hence the points drop.  I just don't see it being as dangerous as it once was, perhaps I'm wrong but I just don't see it.

What is more interesting is the WS carrying cap is going up to 12.  This is rumoured to allow the transport to take a min sized guardians defender squad and their heavy weapons.  BS 4 Fire Prism is also an intersting development, and with holofields it might take the place of the falcon as the premier eldar tank.

One more interesting bit of information I came across.  Apparently Autarchs can join a squad of Aspect Warriors and benifit from the Exarches squad enhancing warrior powers.  That is a very interesting development, and makes the Autarchs even more unique.  This potentially leads to things like redeepstriking Autarchs with hawks, infiltrating ones with scorps, and leaping ones in a banshee squad.   Some very interesting combinations here.

I really don't belive that holofields were the big problem on the falcon. It was the spiritstone holofield combo that made the tank invulnerable. Every weaker hit was downgraded or eliminated by the spiritstones. Now that you can no longer eliminate the crew shaken result the falcon won't be as big a danger as it was before. I won't constantly be shooting anymore. And if it just floats around not shooting it won't be as valuable. Hence the points drop. I just don't see it being as dangerous as it once was, perhaps I'm wrong but I just don't see it.

And it's not sure if the Falcon get BS4. The Fire Prism is looking to have BS4, not necessarily the Falcon.

Thanks for posting all the rumors, it has been an interesting read.  I really like all the fabulous new models the Eldar are getting and especially the potential for a new HQ!  How great!

But ultimately if the swordwind list is invalidated and the only troop choices the Eldar can have are guardians (in mandated bigger squads), dire avengers (with a bit more range) and scouts, they still have the weekest troop options around, that will be sad.  I certainly hope the rumors are just that, and that some elements of force org box manipulation remain, at least for the Saim Han and Biel Tan armies.

(I don't want to buy, own or paint any guardians ever, I think they're complete junk... and Dire avengers are about the same...) 

So is the Shuriken Catapult going to 18 inch range or is that just for Dire Avenger units?  It sure would make jetbikes a bit more attractive as troops if they could shoot 18 inches...

?

I'll update this when the next roundup occurs. So far I'm fairly worried that they are buffung the Eldar a little much and Ill never hear the end of the cries of cheese no matter what I field now (lol).

The falcons will be more survivalble but less on firepower due to weapon nerf (read starcannon) and the new spirit stones.

Dragons get a huge buff w/ str8 guns and a heavy flamer for the exarch.

Reapers with 3+ armour is going to be sick especially when they are now cheaper. we playtested them with a 3 point increase using the 3+ save and thought every point was well spent. Fortune these guys and nothing short of anti-tank weaponry are going to remove them.

The avatar is also going to be simply unbelievable with fortune on it.

Spiders didn't need anything and they are getting a nice boost. The new weapon for the exarch adds the possibility of a pin making the second jump not soo mandatory all of the time. Deepstrike means an option for dealing with artillery finally.

Dragons were fine too and now will pen monoliths on a 6. and wound MC's on 2+. not to mention insta killing most characters.

If the lance does get ap1 it will finally make it superior to the lascannon.

With warwalkers staying in the heavy slot I don't really see them competiting with our other choices.

My Biel-Tan list will change but only for the better. With all of the price drops I'll have even more than I did before not to mention a big boost for the avengers I was already using.

Extra room in the serpents means full size units + character so that's more punch when you unload.

Lazarus.

Posted By Will 08/16/2006 3:45 PM
Are they doing anything for the different craftworlds?

The eldar weapon summary is printed in this month's white dwarf (pretty small). We can clearly see that the star cannon is reduced to heavy 2 and the brightlance does keep it's AP2 that it currently has instead of the rumoured AP1.

Page on the dire avengers pretty much confirms what we already know about them.

Lazarus.

THe days of the first turn assault and assaulting out of strong transports is over. We just have to think of something else.

Yeah, like, play shooty Space Marines or Iron Warriors.

What I'm saying is that Eldar winning some indy tournaments and GTs worldwide during the last couple years happened because of two special rules, the Alaitoc Disruption and the Ulthwé Black Guardians and enormous Seer Council. Those special rules were then combined with min/maxed Starcannon heavy firepower. The armies were resilient enough to withstand punishment, mobile enough to get table quarters, and had enough punch to get a massacre win out of anyone. Now, we won't have real Seer Councils or Black Guardians or Alaitoc Disruption or Starcannons, since all of these have either been nerfed or removed from play completely, and even the ubiquitous Wraithlord suffers from wraithsight now. What do the Eldar have left? They have the Falcon, sure, but Tau have the Hammerhead also and they're still getting their *donkey*kicked day in day out, and that's what's gonna happen to Eldar too.

The codex is going to be really good overall. We will have to adapt to some changes but our options for play are going to be simply awesome. Many units that previously sat on the shelf will now be viable.

The fire dragons being rumoured to get str 8 is massive! They will now instant kill most characters and wound MC's on 2+ not to mention completely shredding vehicles. They will also now penetrate a monolith on a 6'. I believe tank hunter will be avaialble to the sqaud through the exarch (overkill pretty much) and the exarch will have access to a heavy flamer which gives them added versatility (something the eldar units are not normally know for)

Dire avengers get a huge boost a well. 30 shots at BS4 is good news! Access to a str 5 power weapon (executioner) is a nice boost in CC not to mention their 5++ save and lowering on enemy attacks via the exarch.

The new spirit stones will make the transports that bring them to target even more survivable and the tanks themselves along with their weaponry will become cheaper. These price drops will add up quickly to extra stuff in your list that wasn't there before. Higher capacity of the wave serpents mean full size sqauds & characters now.

The new avatar is simply a beast. 3+ / 4++ is amazing when fortuned. Attach this monster to your mini-council and watch your opponent weep. No more bullet sponger here. This guy will kill things and be feared again.

Swooping hawks coming with haywire as standard equipment. Combine that will the ability to always hit a vehicle on a 4+ and we have another great counter to the monolith (or skimmers in general). The ability to re-deepstrike could be pretty interesting as well.

Spiders moving to fast attack is a big deal for many people. The unit was already great as is. Now, they are rumoured to be able to deepstrike in all missions and the exarch has access to a str6 ap1 pinnning weapon. We now have a unit that can drop in on those whirlwinds and bassies to take them out.

Wraithguard rumored to be T6 along with wounding on a 2+ with AP1 (still glance on 3-4 and pen on 5+). They will still shred vehicles as they always have done but now they will also shred termies etc. Their added toughness will ensure that small arms fire is ineffective. Cost is still high but a sqaud may indeed be worth it now...

Shinning spears get a big drop in price. str 6 power weapons on the charge is awesome. A combined effort charge / attack on a unit should see them finished off with a unit like this. Their mobility is simply amazing.

The fire prism may make it into our lists now. I'll reserve judgement until I see how two of them will really work.

Harlequins will be great I'm sure. No one seems to have any solid information on them still. My biggest concern is how they will reach combat. We didn't really need another close combat unit....pretty sure they'll have access to rending weapons (the kiss).

Dark reapers moving to 3+ armour & cheaper? Nuff said.

These are just a few of the things off the top of my head. In short, I'm worried the eldar will become too good and everyone will cry about them. In addition, everyone and their brother will now play them.

Lazarus.

I could have sworn I saw an executioner on the dire avenger's plastic sprue......

Even if wraith cannon is AP2 it won't make a difference as it still has it's own vehicle penetration rules. Wounding on 2+ is what's going to make the difference. I hope that particular rumour is true.

Lazarus.

Tamashi has been doing a pretty good job rounding up all of the rumours and showing what has been confirmed and what has not. I'll post his next update here as soon as he completes it.

I'm not sure what the pole arm weapon does but it sure would make sense to be an executioner...

Lazarus.

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 08/20/2006 1:32 PM
The wave serpant capacity has definetly gone up to 12 to allow for a minimum sized guardian squad with heavy weapon to board up. And while the dire avenger my not get an executioner he does get a weapon option for that cool looking polearm on the sprue. I just forget the name of the weapon, although I think I remember that it's throwable?!?

You can't take a heavy weapon onto a wave serpent still, from what I've been told.

Posted By GrimTeef on 08/22/2006 12:16 AM
Well, I don't think we'll see more than the occassional 2-prism force, since 3 prisms don't seem to be stacking to make a more powerful shot than just using 2 of them. 2 prisms though, I'll have to give that configuration a go. Also, if the Prism does have BS4 as we have heard, it will certainly come a long way towards being the main-line eldar tank it was supposed to be.

I heard that rumor about the Avatar as well, Drake. I think that Jes is a tough taskmaster! The current Avatar is just great as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps a little more explanation on my part is in order.

The new Prisms appear to give you a MBT in line with the Falcon/HH for less points.  Ignoring the synergy that two of them can bring to the table, the tank's a good 'un on its own merits now.  That alone would make the 3-Prism army a difficult nut to crack.

Add to this that any 2 can combine effectiveness into making sure things go 'poof' is a serious bonus.

By taking 3 of them, you could set up in a triangle pattern.  Each one can lay down an impressive shot on its own, and now you also have the option of threatening pretty much the whole board with a super shot by combining any 2 out of the 3.

Also, having one shaken for a turn doesn't prevent the super shot, it only prevents one of the three from adding to it for a turn.  Because of the holo-field, the tank is a survivable as a Falcon.  Since the Falcon's firepower has been downgraded a bit, I think we'll be seeing a LOT of the 3-Prism configs out there since they're now useful against pretty much anything.

It's not that 3 Prisms can lay down a super-duper shot.  It's that each one is a force on its own now, and having the extra 'oomph' available is just the icing on an already tasty cake.

Time will tell.

KW

The new Prisms appear to give you a MBT in line with the Falcon/HH for less points

Really? So how much does the 'new' Fire Prism cost after you've given it Spirit Stones and Holo-Field, and perhaps even the new improved Vectored Engines? I'm curious.

Add to this that any 2 can combine effectiveness into making sure things go 'poof' is a serious bonus.

I think that 350-400 points of Heavy Support has to be able to manage more than one S10 (or S6 large blast) shot with a re-roll to hit. Much more. You realise you (or the opponent) can also get three daemonically possessed Predators for the same price or less? Either way, even if I'm wrong and Fire Prisms don't absolutely suck, they certainly aren't any better than Predators, Hammerheads or Devastator Squads, and the Prism Cannon is no Assault Cannon, it's just a lascannon that can turn into a submunition round.

What do the future Eldar armies look like, based on these rumours? People probably try Aspect Warriors since they are the pretty much only infantry units getting slight improvements, which means they need Wave Serpents since they aren't going to footslog their T3 4+ SV people against walls of Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons, which means they need more than one Wave Serpent. That in turn means that they are mechanising their army, which in turn means no Avatar (the only wannabe Daemon Prince in the game that STILL moves pathetic 6" and assaults 6) and probably no Wraithlords (they have the new and exciting need for expensive babysitters) or Support Platforms, and little or no Dark Reapers and Guardians. Falcons, Fire Prisms and Vypers are taken instead to support the transports. Now what do we have? One of the weakest tournament armies ever -- One that has been tried and tested thousands of times even during the edition when you didn't re-roll failed wound rolls if your 12" moving transport exploded, and you couldn't draw LoS through operational Wave Serpents to the disembarked passengers behind. A couple of buffs and tweaks to the actual passengers (like a one point price reduction) or talk about synergy and idiotic strategies like 10 Dire Avengers (over 250 point unit together with the transport) disembarking to lay down 'covering fire' (kills 3 MEQ) does nothing to the main problem, which is that the tanks will be shot down and the passengers will be laughed at from range. When half the transports go down, the few troops that actually manage to disembark get counter-assaulted or hunted down by Land Speeders and shot to pieces from close range. This has always happened and always will happen. Have all of you forgot why all Eldar players were using minimum sized Guardian units with Starcannons, cheap Avatars, resilient Wraithlords and indestructible Seer Councils in the first place? What has changed?

Absolutely nothing, except that the only strategy that worked (and the units and weapons supporting the strategy) were nerfed or removed. New Exarch skills or Autarch abilities or one point point reductions won't make a strategy doomed to fail work, ever. Unless you can assault from Wave Serpents that move 12" you better start looking at the stand and shoot Eldar variants, but you know you can't challenge the Marines to a firefight unless you got got something special going on, like disruption, and you don't.

The game all depends on who you play with anyway

Even if the army isn't the best it shouldn't matter unless your strictly focusing on competitive/tournament play.

I can still play my Eldar at my local store, it's a challenge but that's what makes it worthwhile.. and I've got the worst list out there usually.

So quit badmouthing stuff before it comes out, it's entirely pointless until the codex is actually in our hands and we can see all the changes.

I'm just hoping for 35 point starcannon platforms (bit higher than 66% of the current one's cost)

This new codex is going to be an improvement for both casual play & tourney play. In casual play it will afford us the ability to use pretty much all of our units that previously sat upon the shelf and still do ok with them.

For tourney play we will have more options to build from. My mech list which is pretty competitive now will gain nice improvements as well as extra points from reductions in cost. these extra points will add up to be more stuff in the list than was there before.

I think we should reserve some judgement until the codex actually comes out. No one has to be a fanboy here but they also don't have to scream the sky is falling either.

This list will certainly be competitive in GT play. For my particular build it will be a straight up improvement to an already winning list.

Lazarus.

Posted By mauleed on 08/23/2006 7:38 AM
I don't care what's in the codex. I'm going to make it competitive or die trying.

My biggest gripe about how GW revamps Eldar is that the majority of the Eldar list is short ranged and is supposed to be a combined arms army. When in 3rd, you could support a unit of mounted scorpions with a unit of mounted firedragons, (note, this is after the no-shoot from vehicle ruling) - it cost you around 650-700 points to run these units (300 points of transports), but you could usually rout or tie up two units of marines reliably. That's 650-700 to kill 350 odd points, leaving around 350 points of marines to strike back. Which to me, seems to work, since 350 points of marines attacking first will usually mangle equal points T3 Sv 4 Eldar.

Then in 4th, they made it so you could only assault what you could shoot, and you couldn't assault after disembarking and you couldn't hide behind your transport and your transport couldn't score. Oh, and they gave EVERYONE ELSE a 2x shot at close range. So a translation would be:

You must attack first, because the shoot 2x rapidfire = flaming death for your T3 squishy boys.
Your foot assault troops will never assault as they will be shot before entering melee.
Your mounted assault troops will never assault as they will be rapid fire shot before entering melee.
Your mounted short ranged shooting troops can still rout enemies, but now require 2x numbers i.e. 700 points to rout 150 points of marines as opposed to before. Oh, and they will probably die immediately after too, since that leaves 550 points of stuff you didn't manage to kill to attack back.
Your transports do not actually transport anything due to the above reasons. Also, they do not score, do not block LOS, so they are expensive non-scoring gunships.

Enter V4 Codex. What did they fix? They didn't fix assault - that's for sure. They didn't really fix the transports either. They made mounted short ranged shooting a little better. Now you can run Shuriken Storm Dire Avengers to support your Fire Dragons. That means that it only costs around 600 points to kill 150 points worth of Marines. What's a 14% improvement from suck? That's like having a bag of poo on your porch, and having people tell you to be happy that its not flaming.

What else did we get:

Wraithguard got tougher. So for a grotesque amount of points, you can mount these, and actually attack something and survive the return fire. Just don't expect them to kill anything with so few attacks.

Dark Reapers got tougher. Now instead of EITHER being area denial, or whirlwind fodder, they're just area denial. If you have a good vantage spot, you can be guaranteed that your opponent will deploy somewhere else, or use the Rhino-wagon-shield to negate their abilities. While tempting, this unit still pales when compared to the Falcon, which has a comparable cost, is much more mobile, and can carry troops. -EDIT- That's not to say I'm unhappy with the change to 3+Sv, just that the Falcon is a better choice.

Wraithlord. This guy got more flexible. But he still sucks compared to the Falcon.

Fireprism. The king of never shooting is still the king of never shooting. Why even bother? The Falcon is more versatile and more durable with 3 heavy weapons.

Warwalkers. These things became WTF. Now they scout. So, like the previous edition, you'll probably get one good turn of shooting and then they are dead, or embroiled in assault.

Bikes and Bike Aspects: Jury's still out, on these. I think Jetbikes are the real winners, especially if they are 20 points. I view them as "fast bolter space marines", so I think they will see lots of play - Move up two shots at 12", twinlinked, back up 6".

Rangers: Mweh.

Support Batteries: Mweh

EDIT - I don't want to sound like I'm whining too much.  Theres a number of things that are moving in the right direction, like bikes, psykers, firedragons, dark reapers and the Avatar is vastly improved.  However, I am bitterly disapointed that they didn't fix the Waveserpent.  I'd have accepted all sorts of arbitrary power reducing concessions like Aspect Warrior max squad size 8, or starcannon heavy 2 24" etc. if they let the aspect warriors shoot OR charge after disembarking.

Posted By Toreador on 08/23/2006 1:24 PM
Meh. Part of the Eldar that has always been is being more maneuverable and bring those big chunks of combined arms to bear on groups of the enemy. Your comparisons are all based on the fact that the leftover points will be there to kill your troops. I usually minimize that. Kill those 150 points and move on.

Oh, don't get me wrong, this is exactly the way to do it.  However, this strategy is completetly nullified if your opponent castles up.  Here's the other scenario.  If the game value is 1500 points, and it takes you 700 points to safely nullify 150 points of your opponent's unit, while giving up 300 points into non-scoring units, that means you only have enough force to safely engage 300 points at a time.  Even if your opponent splits into two forces, your ENTIRE force lacks the punch and staying power to fight with a 2:1 points advantage without loosing in the war of attritition.

Other than Eldar tanks, wraithguard and wraithlords, nothing the Eldar have can survive in a stand up fight.  Outside those units, the fact that you need 3:1 or 4:1 points superiority in infantry (and associated transports) to make a dent in the sea of sv3+ armies is ridiculous.  On the other hand, Eldar have tons of weapons that absolutely savage 4+sv and lower armies.  Foot Orks won't know what hit them.  This is my main gripe.

I had a very good record in 3rd edition with maybe a near 90% win rate using a combined arms mounted Biel-Tan list (Scorpions x2, Firedragons) and Vypers.  The only guys that were on foot were my one unit of Dark Reapers, Wraithlord and a big beefy unit of 20 Guardians w/ no platform.  I also had a combined arms Codex list which had a 70% win rate.  This one had 60 Guardians (various of both storm and defender, some with platforms, some without) backed up by firedragons, dark reapers, Avatar, Wraithlord, vypers and 2 Falcons.  The big difference between the old edition and this one was that:

1.  You could block LOS with your tanks.
2.  You could block LOS with units assaulting from your tanks.

The loss of these two key points takes away almost all the teeth of a slow Eldar foot horde, since you have to eat enemy fire on the way in.  This is the main reason why the Ulthwé strike force is a garbage list (I won't go into the reasons here).  With V4, there's lots of common stuff that kicks out tons of Eldar killing firepower:

1.  Leman Russ w/ 3 heavy bolters 9 shots on the move
2.  Eldar Falcon - (rumoured) up to 9 shots on the move w/ scatterlaser/shuricanon
3.  Preadator Destructor w/ heavy bolter sponsons - 8 shots on the move
4.  Landspeeder Tornado w/ heavy bolter - 7 shots on the move - fast
5.  Monolith:  Deepstrike into your lines, D6 shots on everything wounds on 2s no save.

The problem with missions is you have to have scoring units to win mission based games.  I have Iron Warriors as a second army.  It doesn't move at all usually.  It wins mission based missions by ensuring that nothing LIVES to hold objectives.  This would be my approach with a static style list vs. Eldar foot horde.  My army has 11 heavy bolters (3 on oblits) and 2 ordinance tanks to ensure that there will be lots of carnage.

At any rate, this is going OT.  Please msg me with any infantry based tactical solutions or create a thread in Tactics.  I'm sure other Eldar generals would love to hear how you overcome the inherent weakness of the list.

I really can't follow the logic of the eldar being "brutally handicapped". I have played since the very beginning and of course they have lost the power of 2nd edition but then again most all else did too.

I mainly play mech Biel-Tan and see these new rules as a huge boost overall. Somethings I'm not sure of until I actually see all of the rule changes but what has been shown so far looks promising. I personally wasn't using lots of star cannons so the nerf to them doesn't impact me as much.  I'm looking forward to using an Autarch along with my seer for the scorpions. Some have seen the scorpion's mandiblaster rules as a nerf but I see it as an extra attack with the claw....what the exarch's strength will be is yet to be seen for sure.

Doom should make the banshees rock. The new seer should make the librarian's head hurt for once.

Cheaper weapons & vehicles means free points for me. When I look at my list that I pretty much win all the time with I now get to add more stuff for "free".....wow. Most of my opponents refuse to believe that the eldar need anything.

Lazarus.

Most of my opponents refuse to believe that the eldar need anything.

Well it's safe to say you don't play in a very competitive environment if your opponents are like that, and it's probably the same reason why you can't figure out why Eldar are handicapped. If you play trash but keep on winning with it, of course there's no need for any changes.

But it's nice to see that to the casual players the new casual player orientated Codex looks promising, and to the hardcore players it looks like a total flop.

Posted by:Therion

Well it's safe to say you don't play in a very competitive environment if your opponents are like that, and it's probably the same reason why you can't figure out why Eldar are handicapped.

Well it's safe to say that you are completely wrong. (lol). You want to dig at me because you lack the skill to play Eldar that's just fine. Maybe I do well with them since I've payed this game from the beginning....I can't speak for you.

But it's nice to see that to the casual players the new casual player orientated Codex looks promising, and to the hardcore players it looks like a total flop.

I don't do much casual play and was only making an obsevation. I almost exclusively play tourneys so most of my perspective comes from that direction. My comments before were based upon the success I had at the last GT and the fact that the proposed changes were going to boost my list even further.

The entire list may not be obviously broken but in the hands of a good player it is still a formindable force.

Lazarus.

I'm just seeing so much doom & gloom in regards to the new codex and on several different boards.

I made my main list to specifically compete with some of the top tourney lists that are commonly seen. If the rumours hold true then I receive boosts to that list that are substantial.

Marines just got tagged with a nerf to deepstriking speeders (no one I know deepstrikes them anymore) and they also lose 1/2 points on their drop pods immediately.....does this mean that they are no longer viable as a drop pod army? (lol)

Lazarus.

Posted By djones520 on 08/24/2006 7:24 AM

As psyched as I am about the new Eldar Codex (I play them as well), I'm a bit worried. This guys taught me a lot about being succesful with current Eldar, and it seems a lot of huge changes are coming their way. Most seem to be for the better, and thats tending to make me thing Eldar may start to become a very broken army. When played correctly now, they are a potent force. With all these upgrades coming there way though... Well, we'll see how it turns out.

Being a marine and chaos marine player, I would actually hope that the army is powerful.  The only way this hobby/game is going to work is if GW makes the xenos armies actually competitive.  And I don't mean in some one-trick pony, tourny type of way, but to actually make them powerful.  It would be about time that marines had to work to get their wins.  And I hope Orks become even more powerful than Eldar

Like others have said, speculation is all well and good, but until we have book in hand, and see the codex in its entirety, then there is really no point in arguing over how 'nerfed' the army is...

Our current codex is not really weak at all. The problem with it is that we only use a small portion of it which are the effective units. The new codex will be buffing all of these underused units to make them playable. There are a few nerfs but nothing we can't live with. I was only using 2 or 3 star cannons in my whole list so them going to heavy 2 doesn't mean much especially when the lower prices of everything will afford me opportunities to make up that fire power. The pulse laser is rumoured to go to heavy 2 and the scatter to heavy 4....both of those are an increase in firepower based upon averages.

I also see many of the changes for the better. I already have to worry about comp scoring as it is and with all of the improvements they are getting I'll be worried that some of my opponents may think the list is too strong.

Time will tell.

Lazarus.

What success? The only Eldar list to perform at the GT was Tom Sergeant's 3 Wraithlord list as far as i can recall (which i can give the details of if you like). All the rest were Councils or Disruption lists. I'm assuming you aren't Mr Sergeant, as he's from London, so can you clarify what you mean by success?

Lazarus:  The fact that you are using Biel Tan is suspect to me.  Out of the Eldar sub-dexes to come ot of 4th, it was one of the most reduced in functionality by the new rules, due to its reliance on superior positioning to make up for its lack of numbers.  My Biel Tan list deliberately included a 20 man Guardian squad to bulk up numbers and to provide an objective grabbing unit.  Other than reaperwind, there does not seem to be an efficeint build for this list in 4th.  Please feel free to prove me wrong.  (Keep in mind, common match-ups around these parts include the usual tournament goodies - Chaos Slaanesh / Khornate lists, Iron Warriors, Marine SAFHs, Marine Drop Pods and Tyranid Godzilla lists.)

I agree while theory hammer isn't the be all and end all, it is a good measuring stick of what the "expected" outcome is, and helps you avoid boneheaded decisions.  Theoryhammer seems to indicate that the 12" range is a huge handicap.  While terrain placement can mitigate this, it is not a sure thing by a long shot.  As such, I have to throw in my lot with BigChris and Therion.  All final decisions are reserved until the codex comes out.

I have been lurking on this forum on and off for the past two years and only now am I replying.  To think that the Eldar are a weak army is the complete opposite of my 4th ed experience.  Actually all of my experience from 1995 on.  I have won the past 5 RT's I have attended, and as my job requires I travel all the time they have been in Lakewood, WA; Olympia, WA; Monterey, CA; and Tucson, AZ.  I am about to play in another tourney on Saturday and expect to do well there also.  I play Biel Tann about 70% of the time and Alaitoc about 30% of the time.  I really love some of the units people consider weak as well.  Especially the Avatar.  80pts that if players ignore cause so much more than 80pts of damage.  And if players shoot at it they aren't shooting at my other troops which are much more expensive.  My list is at the bottom of the post. Listed Hvy, Troop, Elite, HQ (no Fast Attack)

However, back on the rumor topic can anyone point me towards a consolidated new codex rumor list?  Thanks.

3 platform Support Battery (Death Spiners) 135pts

1 Wraithlord w/Brightlance 120pts

2 Warwalkers w/2 starcannons each 200pts

5 Dark Reapers w/exarch (Missile launcher, Fast Shot) 233pts

10 Scorpions w/plas & haywire grenades/exarch (Scorpions Claw, Stealth)

10 Banshees w/exarch (Executioner) in Wave Serp (TL Bright lance, Crystal targeting matrix)

10 Fire Dragons w/exarch (Firepike) in Wave Serp (TL Brightlance, Crystal targeting matrix)

5 rangers 95pts

1 Vyper w/Starcannon 65pts

2 Vypers w/Star cannons 130pts

Total 1847 points

Orion

Posted by:Therion

Lazarus let me just say that you can keep on repeating how your Biel-Tan has to worry about comp scores already and mostly trashes all of its opponents, but noone is buying it, since in reality there's only two options: Either all your opponents suck, or all of your opponents' armies suck, and that means you don't play in a competitive environment.

There really isn't much point in arguing with you as you will never know how good of a player I am without playing me nor I you. I think there are some here who can vouch for my abilities with my list though. I'd hardly say my opponent's suck either (lol)

I wasn't at the gladiator this year (I will be next year) but from my understanding a relatively tame drop list won it....over all of the uber cheese lists.

Your Biel-Tan won't get a win against competitive Tyranids or Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines and that makes it a weak army.

You are kidding right? Maybe you don't understand what sort of list I am playing.....mech eldar(insert craftworld) is a very tough list.

You will never beat broken armies or consistently massacre all mediocre and weak tournament opponents, and face it man that's what you have to do if you want to win something big. However if you plan to go to the UK GT and finish 167th then Biel-Tan is a fine, competitive army.

I think my list (and my experience) performs well against most of these hard lists as it is. The improvements will make it even better. Alaitoc (ranger disruption) , siren daemon bombs and drop pod (fotd) lists are what my list is designed to deal with effectively and these were all top tourney lists.

I guess to sum it up I'm pretty happy with what I'm hearing in regards to changes and I am personally confident in my ability to make my list competitive in any environment. If you personally need more brokeness to feel comfortable than that is your perrogative.

Lazarus.

Thanks, Toreador.

And yes, as you can see I like things some people don't use.  I also don't like the pop up attack, leave that to the Tau... but to shoot a transport in movement and then get the troops in shooting is great fun.  And when you can work it out so the scorps are nearby and those troops get assaulted just watch your opponents oh so great day melt away.

And, for Alaitoc, just don't use the ranger table.  Your opponents never mind and you don't really need it.  Its just having 40 rangers that makes the list fun.

Orion

edit/  I just read the compilation thread and I am in heaven.  Can't wait to get my hands on the new dex.  Especially one of my all time favorite weapons the heavy flamer.- Orion

Posted by:keezus

The fact that you are using Biel Tan is suspect to me

Really? When running a mech list I can choose from several different craftworlds......My falcons don't care what color they are. (lol)

Other than reaperwind, there does not seem to be an efficeint build for this list in 4th.

Mech lists are certainly viable in 4th edition. Sure, we don't have the pure assault power we once had but that's not what I rely on.

(Keep in mind, common match-ups around these parts include the usual tournament goodies - Chaos Slaanesh / Khornate lists, Iron Warriors, Marine SAFHs, Marine Drop Pods and Tyranid Godzilla lists.)

Oh, believe me, my list was built with these lists in mind.  The only time my lists seems to suffer is if we do not play with the minimun ammount of terrain and this will sometimes happen at tourneys....although in 50%of those games it won't matter (lol)

Theoryhammer seems to indicate that the 12" range is a huge handicap.

Yes, the shorter range is indeed a handicap compared to 2nd edition but we have had how long to learn to live with it? I'm sure no one says that melta guns are handicapped either...it's how you apply the strength you have not just how strong you are.....

Lazarus.

Lazarus> You have yet to post how you make a mechanized list work. Slightly less than 1/3 of the points invested in every full size mounted Aspect Warrior squad consists of points spent on your transport. The transport doesn't score, and doesn't block LOS. Full size shooting aspect warrior squads can not be relied upon to defeat similar numbers of Sv3+ models on average. Statistical analysis shows that force multipliers of 2x are needed for AP3+ weapons, and force multipliers of 3x+ needed for AP4 and below. To me it just reeks of diminishing returns as your scoring units are all rendered useless through attrition.

I own over 5000 points of Eldar that are gathering dust, including 5 converted waveserpents. Help a brother out!

-EDIT- Just saw your post.  I know that it is possible to attack and destroy isolated portions of the enemy, however, any time the enemy unites their forces, and denys the eldar their force multiplying effect, baring some insane rolling, you're going to die to attrition.

-EDIT2- The Biel Tan comment was in response to your assertion that tweaks to aspect warriors were going to make them too strong.  It's pretty obvious that the 3x Falcon + Vyper list is very effective - and will CONTINUE to be effective.  I believe Therion and the others are bemoaning the fact that the rest of the list still isn't very competitive.  That is what we are trying to address.

-EDIT3- The issue with short range is that rapidfire gained that extra shot within 12".  So it means that whereas in the past kiling 6/10 Marines meant 4x return shot, now you're eating 8x return shot.  Which is where the issue lies.  Instead of crippling, you have to near annihilate the enemy when you attack, and the new codex rumours currently does not appear to support this kind of play.  Note:  Eldar have exactly 1 rapidfire gun, the Deathspinner, which is capped at 12".

Posted by:keezus

You have yet to post how you make a mechanized list work. Slightly less than 1/3 of the points invested in every full size mounted Aspect Warrior squad consists of points spent on your transport. The transport doesn't score, and doesn't block LOS. Full size shooting aspect warrior squads can not be relied upon to defeat similar numbers of Sv3+ models on average. Statistical analysis shows that force multipliers of 2x are needed for AP3+ weapons, and force multipliers of 3x+ needed for AP4 and below. To me it just reeks of diminishing returns as your scoring units are all rendered useless through attrition.

The transports may not score but they still must be dealt with. The faclons are likely to be alive to the bitter end and that works great as VP denial as well as objective grabbing. You use mobility to your advantage.

I own over 5000 points of Eldar that are gathering dust, including 5 converted waveserpents. Help a brother out!

lol, I have over 20,000 points+ so if you need anything let me know.

The 3++ I was refering to was for when they turbo boost into position...add fortune to that and it gets mean.

Lazarus.

Here is a new batch of confirmation / rumour. Make of it what you will....if vectored engines do that I'll say my mech list just got even tougher huh? (lol)

Lazarus.

[quote author=Hilbilly Jim the 132nd link=topic=82933.msg1449425#msg1449425 date=1156447230]
I spoke to someone who has playtested with the new Eldar today, and have been told quite a bit of information. However, I do not know what I will be confirming/repeating and new stuff, so I will not categorise.

The coolest thing that I have been told, and been unable to find in the summaries, is that vectored engines will now stop an immobilised fast-moving skimmer from crashing (yay to no pinning and wounds!) so Wave Serpent rushes will be getting a big boost.

Harlequins are going to be very, very hard. They are going to be WS5 BS3 S3 T3 W1 A2 I6 Ld9 Sv 5++ and 18 pts in units 5-10. They can supposedly upgrade their close combat weapons to Harlequin's Kisses (rending close combat weapons) at +4 pts/model, will all have furious charge, can take a Death Jester for +10 pts with a pinning Shuriken Cannon a Shadowseer (can't remember the points) who will mean that they always count as in night fight and give them hit and run, and a Troupe Leader who can have Power Blades and has +1 basic attacks and Leadership. (I can't wait for 40 S4 I7 rending attacks!)

Mandiblasters are just going to be +1 attack (yes to Autarchs with 6 S6 power weapon attacks!).

Wraithguard will be takeable as troops choices in units of ten with warlocks, and Wraithlords will get Wraithsight. Warlocks will have an area of wraithsight nullifying of 6', and can be upgraded to Spirit Seers for 6 pts which will give them a 12' area of effect.

Spirit Stones will be becoming Extra Armour but will be staying at 10 pts. Holo-Fields are staying the same but Crystal Targeting Matrices are conclusively gone.

Dire Catapults will be 18' range, and Blade Storm is as expected (Assault 3 for one turn, no firing next turn). As is a shimmershield and Distract.

He did not specifically say it, but he gave the distinct impression that Phoenix Lords would not be special characters but normal HQ choices! Do not take this one too seriously though, as he did not specifically say it.

Laser Lances are going to be incredibly hard in combat as expected, but will also be Assault 1 S6 Rng 6' Lance Weapons, and Star Lances the same but S8 (in combat and shooting)! So do not think for one second that your Bright Lance Shiningg Spear Exarchs have gone! No word on Ap yet.

D-Cannons will be blast Wraithcannons. Wraithcannons are going to be Ap2, but are otherwise as expected (wound on 2+ etc.) and Wraithguard will be toughness 6.

Seer Councils will now be takeable as a Vanilla unit, and in fact everything else expected is correct (except for the fact that you will no longer need to take Farseers to take Warlocks).

The Tempest Launcher will be G36 Heavy 2 Blast S4 Ap3 and will be fast shot-able. Dark Reapers will be getting 3+ saves and be going down in points.

Fire Dragons are as expected (melta guns basically and down to 15 pts).

Prisms are as expected.

Guardian Bikes will be troops and are dropping in points.

Warp Spiders will be fast attack and able to deepstrike if the Exarch has a certain power.

The whole thing about vehicles getting cheaper but weapons more expensive (except second Shuriken Cannons) is all true.

Avatars are as expceted, as are Autarchs and Phoenix Lords (except that they might be takeable in normal/tournament games). Eldrad is staying the same, except is getting doom, as expected. Prince Yriel is a new Special Character who will have a Singing Spear that ignores armour saves in combat, mostly an Autarch's statline and a S8 Grey Knight holocaust type thing that he can use once per game instead of attacking.

Guardians are becoming ten to twenty, but Dire Avengers are not becoming 1+ as some rumours have stated.

War Walkers' energy field will make them not count as open-topped now, and they are getting a scout move.

Starcannons will definately be becoming Heavy 2, Scatter Lasers Heavy 4 and Pulse Lasers Heavy 2.

I did not get a chance to ask about Swooping Hawks, and before anyone says, I do know that this is mostly just slightly confirming (do not take it too seriously as my memory may be fudged) what we already believe.

I was under the impression (from multiple sources) that you will indeed be able to take a seer council. It will be limited to 3 seers and around 10 warlocks. The warlocks come w/ standard equipment so there will no longer be cheap ablative wounds fdor the council.

Lazarus.

I'm not sure how viable Iyanden will be on a strict craftworld theme as before but we certainly have more flexibility with them now. Greater toughness along with wounding on 2+ makes them more than simple monolith / land raider killers. Add in some new HQ's with more punch and improved wraithlords combined with cheaper options....you'd have to admit it's going to be an improvement over last edition.....so you don't get 3 lords and 3 falcons (who in the hell was fitting that in an 1850 list worth a damn?)

Will this be an optimal hardcore list? I dunno....I'll have to see the whole codex first.

I wish we could get some concrete evidence on the fate of the USF list...Phill Kelly wrote that as well so I'd hope he kept it in mind....I get giddy with the thought of harlequins swarming out of the gate (lol)

Fast attack slots will be hotly contested to the point that many vypers will hit the shelves...

If the new vectored engines & spirit stones work as advertised we'll be able to deliver cargo to target without any difficulty at all....

Lazarus.

Im willing to bet that they still have a seer council. Rumours of this have been fairly persistent and it makes the most senes anyways. Ulthwe alread gets nerfed by losing their black guardians somewhat and I seriously doubt they will remove the council as well. The council box sets are still out there and they will also be releasing new farseer models.....with all of our new HQ options being good we may not actually see the council all that often but it will be there for the choosing. By eliminating the council GW would lose sales on their models....

Lazarus.

Posted By BatCommander on 08/26/2006 7:12 PM
Kirasu, I'm guessing you're referring to me? That "some obscure journal" just so happens to have been written by Gav Thorpe, who just might have written many other codices that you consider "legal."

Posted By BatCommander on 08/26/2006 7:55 PM
I never said it makes it legal; I was just stating the the rules aren't ridiculous. They have been well thought out, and tested. I never tried using them in any official game.

Posted By BatCommander on 08/26/2006 6:50 PM
I still think harlequins were much better before. I'd rather have my Solitare with a possible 13 attacks at initiative 8 that wounds on a 2+, ignores armor saves, and kills things outright on a 6. Same with a great harlequin, but with only 7 attacks.

Posted By BatCommander on 08/26/2006 8:28 PM
And Ghaz, stop assuming so much, I never said I didn't use them, I said I never tried to use them "officially," specifically meaning any tournaments or such.

Posted By Schepp himself on 08/27/2006 3:55 PM

Is it possible that they change the Shurikencannon to Assault anyway? Or maybe the Death Jester has a move and fire special rule (Slow & Purposeful seems a bit off).

Look on Warseer or in posts above, the death jester cannon is an assault, pinning weapon. It should be great fun.

Edit- Stupid slow server, I was beat to the punch.

Posted By Therion- on 08/27/2006 5:13 AM
Could someone really tell me what's going on with this Dire Avenger hype? Dire Catapults are NOT effective against MEQ because the person who carries them costs a lot of points and is the optimal MEQ target (T3 4+ save -- dies on a 2+ to sustained fire weapons that also allow no save), and if you are fighting hordes with mechanised Eldar you WILL rather take the Storm Guardian unit with 2 Flamers and Warlock with Heavy Flamer.

I think the DA hype is that the unit has actually become a viable choice.  It's not about them becoming a 'must have' unit, it's about them becoming a 'might take' unit instead of the 'no way' unit they've been since at least 2nd edition (maybe even before then, I didn't start till 2nd).

And vs Gaunts a unit of 10 net an average of 13.66 kills with a Storm (that's not even considering the extra pump the Exarch gives to the stats).  Doomed, that same unit takes 17.77 kills from a Storm.  With an 18" range, the gaunts don't have to be bunched up to hit these numbers, unlike the trip flamer squad which depends on closer groupings to get really efficient averages. 

So no, I would NOT rather take the Storm Guardian unit over this thank you very much. 

I'm pretty damn sure I can kill more Gaunts with 7 Shuriken Catapults/Pistols, 2 Flamers and a Heavy Flamer, than with 10 Dire Catapults, in almost any given scenario. My Heavy Flamer also has a higher strength and AP, and tons of my automatic hits ignore cover saves in addition to armor saves (which is a big advantage). Don't forget that Bladestorm also gimps you for the following turn.

The 'trip Flamer' squad doesn't require the targets to be closely grouped, only that you get to disembark into a good firing position. Although I must say that if the target Gaunt unit has 20 models or more as in your example they do, they are going to be pretty closely grouped on most tabletops.

Finally, a Warlock and 9 Storm Guardians are a lot cheaper than 9 Dire Avengers and a Dire Avenger Exarch with Bladestorm power, and you can also get great value out of them by using them as a 6man squad in a Falcon.

I would never, ever, take 9 Dire Avengers and an Avenger Exarch over Storm Guardians in a mechanised Eldar army, and if Dire Avengers aren't too useful in that type of force, they certainly have no role in a footslogga Eldar army, so what's the point?

Posted By Ghaz on 08/27/2006 3:49 PM

Posted By BatCommander on 08/26/2006 8:28 PM
And Ghaz, stop assuming so much, I never said I didn't use them, I said I never tried to use them "officially," specifically meaning any tournaments or such.

Who's making asumptions?  Official games don't occur at just tournaments, thank you very much.

Posted By BatCommander on 08/27/2006 9:27 PM

Posted By Ghaz on 08/27/2006 3:49 PM

Posted By BatCommander on 08/26/2006 8:28 PM
And Ghaz, stop assuming so much, I never said I didn't use them, I said I never tried to use them "officially," specifically meaning any tournaments or such.

Who's making asumptions?  Official games don't occur at just tournaments, thank you very much.

Your posts are always hilariously ironic. I stated, '...tournaments or such." neither limiting official games to just tournaments, nore implying that all games are official; if you're going to try to berate me about my posts, try reading the entire thing.

Posted By Therion- on 08/27/2006 9:00 PM

I'm pretty damn sure I can kill more Gaunts with 7 Shuriken Catapults/Pistols, 2 Flamers and a Heavy Flamer, than with 10 Dire Catapults, in almost any given scenario. My Heavy Flamer also has a higher strength and AP, and tons of my automatic hits ignore cover saves in addition to armor saves (which is a big advantage). Don't forget that Bladestorm also gimps you for the following turn.

The 'trip Flamer' squad doesn't require the targets to be closely grouped, only that you get to disembark into a good firing position. Although I must say that if the target Gaunt unit has 20 models or more as in your example they do, they are going to be pretty closely grouped on most tabletops.

Finally, a Warlock and 9 Storm Guardians are a lot cheaper than 9 Dire Avengers and a Dire Avenger Exarch with Bladestorm power, and you can also get great value out of them by using them as a 6man squad in a Falcon.

I would never, ever, take 9 Dire Avengers and an Avenger Exarch over Storm Guardians in a mechanised Eldar army, and if Dire Avengers aren't too useful in that type of force, they certainly have no role in a footslogga Eldar army, so what's the point?

Actually, say you get to keep your shuricats and get the two flamers and Destructor for the sake of argument.

x16 shuricat shots, x8 hits, 5.33 wounds

You've got to make up 11.33 wounds with the flamers.  Assuming you can get an equal distribution, or even heavy on the Destructor, that's an average of 3.77 wounds each.  So, your looking at hitting 5.655 gaunts per flamer and 4.524 gaunts with the Destructor.

Not the most unlikely scenario if you throw in a Waveserpent to get them in position.  This is, again, assuming you get to keep your shuricats, unlike in the current 'dex where you'd only be starting off with a little over 2.6 wounds with the shuri weaponry.

Only, now the squads are a lot closer in price (DA will probably end up in Serpents a lot as well, so might as well throw that onto their cost).  And, your slightly cheaper squad just tied with the Avengers, who get to clear an 18" zone around them with that same kind of careful positioning to deny anything but a very lucky charge.

So, on top of buying more armor for my guys, point for point I'm more survivable because I don't risk getting charged as easily as the Guardians.

Don't play them because you don't want to play them, not because you've decided that they can't put out the numbers that they'll be able to for no good reason.

Posted By Ghaz on 08/27/2006 11:27 PM

Posted By BatCommander on 08/27/2006 9:27 PM

Posted By Ghaz on 08/27/2006 3:49 PM

Posted By BatCommander on 08/26/2006 8:28 PM
And Ghaz, stop assuming so much, I never said I didn't use them, I said I never tried to use them "officially," specifically meaning any tournaments or such.

Who's making asumptions?  Official games don't occur at just tournaments, thank you very much.

Your posts are always hilariously ironic. I stated, '...tournaments or such." neither limiting official games to just tournaments, nore implying that all games are official; if you're going to try to berate me about my posts, try reading the entire thing.

I see no such reference to 'tournaments and such' in your original post about not using Harlequins in 'official' games.  Maybe you should try to be more exact in your statements and not try to make excuses to cover up your mistakes.  Perhaps you should be the one reading your entire posts before you try and berate someone.

Posted By Therion- on 08/28/2006 6:53 AM
Except that Gaunts are pretty much the optimal target for Dire Avengers, and they aren't even getting a tie in kills with cheaper Storm Guardians. Flamers will be hitting 6-7 models each since even a fraction of a partial hits, so your numbers are off. When the target is for example enemy Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Tau Fire Warriors, or Orks in cover because of the force field, the flamers and the Destructor with its AP4 are unbeatable.

You won't get assaulted much less when you're firing from approximately 15" away, since the entire strategy is to demolish entire units or groups of units in certain areas of the battlefield, and you're constantly ignoring the fact that your Dire Avengers aren't doing anything for a whole turn after they've used their expensive talent that actually makes them lose 25% of their firepower over the course of 2 turns, instead of adding anything to it.

Depending on the weapon access that the exarch gets for close combat the avengers could be pretty decent. Add in a seer using fortune and they'll likely stick around for a bit.

Lazarus.

Posted By kwade on 08/28/2006 7:49 AM

Therion, if you're able to land your squads within 8" of 18-21 models on a regular basis, then I can see where you'd want to keep those flamer squads.  Me, I prefer not to count on my opponent being quite so careless.

Do you know how much 9 Dire Avengers and a Dire Avenger Exarch with Bladestorm cost? A lot more than 120 points. Are you assuming Bladestorm and the Exarch upgrade are free? They aren't, and again your calculations ignore the fact you're not firing at all for the following turn. Why are the Space Marines letting the Dire Avengers walk into an assault when otherwise the elves couldn't do anything at all? Do your games last one turn? Anyway, I'd be willing to bet those 8 Marines can buy a couple special or heavy weapons for their squad for the same price, and perhaps even an additional Marine.

Please also do the math on heavy bolter, heavy flamer and assault cannon returns when firing a) Space Marines b) Dire Avengers.

Dire Avengers vs Tactical Marines always ends up in Eldar getting massacred.

- Post Deleted -

Regardless, even without taking into account the cost of bladestorm, they are of dubious use.  With the cost of bladestorm = to 25% premium, they're utterly worthless.

They aren't going to re-embark anything because their transport crashed 2 turns ago, killing 37.5% of the Dire Avengers onboard. What the heck are you talking about not commenting on the cost of Bladestorm? You bring maths and claim that two units firing at eachother cost the same, when its blatantly obvious that they don't, and when I call you out on your mistake you say no comment? Priceless.

Posted By keezus on 08/28/2006 1:41 PM
Therion:  Well sir, I offer you my most heartfelt appologies for my complete and utter woeful incompetence and the souls of my unborn children to appease your wrath. 

Out of curiousity, Dire Avengers aside, do you see any use for Warwalkers, Support Batteries and Fireprisms?  They all seem like flashy toys, with little substance.

Toreador:  Upon further reflection, Therion is correct:  In a vaccuum, there are two scenarios as to what will happen:

Scenario 1.

Avengers enter 24".  Marines fire 10 shots, kill 20/9 - 8 Avengers left
Avengers enter 18".  Avengers fire 24 shots, kill 8/3 - 7 Marines left
Marines stand still:  Fire 7 shots:  6 Avengers left
Avengers do nothing, but can not escape 24" range.  If they advance, they will enter rapidfire range and take 3 additional casualties.  If they withdraw, they will take an additional 2 casualties.  It is a loose-loose proposition.
Final outcome of end of turn 3, Avengers either at 3 or 4 models at around 18" range.  Marines at 7 models.  At 4 models, a second bladestorm volley is good only for 4/3 of a MEQ casualty.

-Edit- Note.  I intentionally discounted fleet of foot, since you would be looking at needing a 5 or 6 to make it into combat.  Failure = getting charged by the Marines - which would be a bad thing, as it kills the same as shooting, but denys you the charge attack.

Scenario 2.

Avengers enter 24".  Marines fire 10 shots, kill 20/9 - 8 Avengers left
Avengers enter 18".  Avengers fire 16 shots, kill 16/9 - 8 Marines left
Marines stand still.  Marines fire 8 shots:  16/9 - 6 Avengers left
Avengers enter 12".  Avengers fire 18 shots - 6 Marines left
Marines stand still.  Marines fire 12 shots:  24/9 - 3 Avengers left
Avengers charge:  6 attacks at S3 yields 1/3 casualty
Marines swing back:  6 attacks at S4 yields 1 casualty.  Marines win combat, outnumber + below half.
Final outcome at the middle of turn 4:  Avengers at 2 models, Marines at 6 models.  The Avengers are almost certainly running away.

Posted By Therion- on 08/28/2006 1:39 PM

They aren't going to re-embark anything because their transport crashed 2 turns ago, killing 37.5% of the Dire Avengers onboard.

BigChris:  If vectored engines make it immobilized, it can still shoot like regular immoibilized vehicles - correct?  Is there something in the new dex preventing this?

That's only true if the Avengers are firing first.  Your analogy falls to pieces if you let the Marines purchase equipment or units equal to the cost of the Waveserpent.  (IIRC, naked waveserpent = 110 - or 7 marines) - While the waveserpent will undoubtedly add casualties to the 15 marines, it will definitely add fewer than 2.4 - Say the extra 5 shots of indeterminite BS (shuriken catapult and twinlink cannons) adds a generous 1 wounds (considering that 20 shots only does 2.4).

Now you have 24 shots coming back:  5 casualties.  If you charge, you can only charge one of the units.  The other will definitely charge in on their turn to help their friends.

Of course, we'd never see this matchup in reality, so debating the point/point advantages of mobile "naked" dire avengers is laughable considering:

1.  Their likely targets will be 6 man las/plas teams (or other such smallish units).  If you give the squad some equipment, and put a good gun and survivability options onto the transport, you'll be facing 3 las/plas teams for just a bit more than you paid for your mounted Avengers.

2.  Your avengers are in reserve in Escalation.

3.  Your avengers can only attack these units one at a time - with some assists from the WS (either by softening up something else, or finishing off the stragglers, since 3.3 MEQ for 30 shots is pathetic.

4.  Your transport isn't a scoring unit.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 08/28/2006 3:18 PM
I don't know. We're just working on rumors right now. But that's what it looks like, yeah. Turn 1: Fly out 24" and get immobilized. Turn 2: disembark and fire those TL bright lances if you can.

I usually don't like to call improvements that cost 15-25 points actual buffs to the list since you are paying a price for the increased survivability, but I guess people have no choice once they start massing Serpents and Falcons. I mean, if a transport costs 150 points or more you expect it to survive a couple of shots before blowing up.

If the designers feel that the only true way to play Eldar is the Swordwind-style fast assault mechanised tank force with Vyper support, they really should've given Eldar a special rule or some special vehicle upgrades that allow assaulting from mobile Serpents and Falcons. We would've seen a lot more Scorpions and Banshees that way, and who can say that the third edition armies' mobile assault elements (Rhinos and whatnot) weren't fun to play? I think its ironic that in the 'dynamic' fourth edition there's less actual movement of troops than in the SAFH ordnance heavy third edition.

I guess this is basically falling into two camps.

1) the powegame / broken camp who are going to only field the cheesiest stuff possible and therefore think that this new dex falls short.

2) The rest of us.

I'm really looking forward to the new dex overall. There will cerainly be changes that require adjustments but many of them for the good.

As far as costs go nearly everything is rumoured to be going down or staying the same with a few exceptions. I think that SH armies receive a big boost in this department with the lower prices of jetbikes and shining spears not to mention much cheaper shuriken cannon upgrades. Add in new & improved HQ characters and you have a very doable bike army. Those same SH players will now not be restricted to 1 heavy slot either.

The main issue I am having at the moment is the comp scoring system in regards to my mech Biel-Tan. In order to keep the all aspect theme I'll have to fit an extra unit of dire avengers in there to satisfy my minimum troop requirments. Although the force will then look fluffy it will be all elites / fast attack with min troops (2).......this is a problem to be sure.

With the move to troops that jetbikes are receiving I could possibly use them to help in the troop department....not exactly aspects but certainly in keeping with the mechanized theme. I think we will see much more of the bikes if their point cost is down the way they suggest.

The loss of the ranger disruption table is actually a good thing for my list as it was one of the reasons I had to be mounted. Also, if the new seer can give the librarian problems when trying to cast his powers (FOTD, FOTA) it will also be a big help against one of the tough lists......now, for something to deal with siren daemonbombs....too bad they took my CTM.

Lazarus.

Also, you may see the occasional Wraithguard hopping out of a Falcon, as opposed to Fire Dragons.

Posted By Lazarus on 08/29/2006 6:55 AM

I guess this is basically falling into two camps.

1) the powegame / broken camp who are going to only field the cheesiest stuff possible and therefore think that this new dex falls short.

2) The rest of us.

Lazarus:  You are missing the point.  The majority of the posters are not complaining that the new eldar list can not powergame.  They are complaining that the units which were no good are still no good.  Therefore, it is the "rest of us" lists, as you say, which are suffering.  Any fool can assemble a:

Farseer + Bike and some toys
Farseer + Bike and some toys
Guardians x10 w/ scatterlaser (Mandatory)
Guardians x10 w/ scatterlaser (Mandatory)
Firedragons x5 w/ Exarch
Firedragons x5 w/ Exarch
Firedragons x5 w/ Exarch
Vyper w/ brightlance
Vyper w/ brightlance
Falcon w/ all toys
Falcon w/ all toys
Falcon w/ all toys

10 scoring units

W00t.  No new models needed for Keezus!  I almost don't need to paint anything new to field this list except for making some bike farseers.  Horrible!

When two dimensional lists like this can be competitive, the complaint is that with Dire Avengers being so sub par in comparision, most players won't even give them the time of day.  Take the above list for example.  Sure, you could add in a mounted squad of Avengers - you'd be sacrificing a 10 man team of guardians and two vypers to do it.  That's trading 3 heavy weapons, 3 scoring units for one scoring unit, and one twinlinked heavy weapon.  That smacks of  a poor choice, in both killing power, and tactical flexibility IMHO.

The majority of the posters are not complaining that the new eldar list can not powergame. They are complaining that the units which were no good are still no good.

Winterman: I was initially very happy with Jetbikes. However, there are a number of caveats:

1. Seemingly Impressive Killing Power Shuriken Catapults are Range 12. This means after your free 6" assault move, you are still within 18" of the enemy if you want to shoot with the catapults - which is cool for moving into position, but completely inadequate for disengaging. Each twinlinked catapult is good for 1/4 MEQ per bike and each Shuriken Canon is good for 5/12 MEQs. A squad of 10 attacking first will deal 5/12 MEQ casualties on average. Paying 200 points to get 9 shuricannon shots at long range gives you around 3 3/4 MEQs. Which is respectable. Quite a bit better than our buddies the Dire Avengers. (Faster too - which is why I have not included DOOM in the equation - Bikes will probably out-pace the Farseer support, unless he's on a bike as well).

However, they are also spectacularly substandard in HTH, with WS3 and S3 - with each swing able to bring down 1/18 of a MEQ - Large bases conspire to keep the 2" zone clear so that the bikes have difficulty amassing attacks. Therefore, a smallish unit of MEQ opponents can keep them in HTH for a long time.

2. Jetbikes are Durable for Eldar, but Not Durable in the Context of the Game While impressively resistant to bolters, Jetbikes are essentially fast Space Marines, and therefore vulnerable to all MEQ killing equipment, which is plentiful in almost all army builds due to the prevalance of MEQ opponents. Plasma and ordinance in particular will kill these guys en-masse. Especially since plasma has that all important 12"/24" rapidfire range. Jetbikes are also stuck with Ld8. Hopefully, the new Farseers will help them not be "Feared" off the table.

3. Jetbikes cost many Pesos! Because GW is ever-helpful, the only way to effectively buy bike squadrons is to buy them seperately. The 5 bike box at $50 is a twinkle in my fading memory. In Canada, a 10 bike, 3 cannon squad will run about $170. This is one of those units where you need to go FULL or not at all - due to the aforementioned durabiliity problems.

I've never liked the new Spiders from 3rd until now BTW.  They don't seem to be best at anything.  Firedragons kill high toughness stuff better due to S8 AP1, and Swooping Hawks kill low T squishy stuff well due to Assault 2 24" range, outside of rapidfire retaliation range -AND- can better threaten vehicles with haywire.

Posted by:Mannahnin

Yeah, thanks for that, Lazarus. Your initial statement comes across as "If you think the codex falls short, you're a cheesy powergamer." Not exactly a courteous argument. Also misses the point.

Sorry about that. I suppose my judgemnt was colored by the crying I have seen accross several different forums on how the eldar are getting screwed. I suppose most of my intent was actually aimed at a smaller crowd. I'm sure you people know who you are...

I really don't see how anyone can't see all of the improvements we are getting overall...also, hard to make final judgements until we see everything.

You don't have to be a powergamer to wonder how 120-150 pts of DA can stand up to a similar cost unit SM, with even a single Heavy Bolter factored into the equation.

Well, I'm not sure how you play but I like to bring overwhelminmg firepower to destroy my targets...I never rely on sqaud vs. sqaud of equal points to do that...

You don't have to be a powergamer to see that 120+ point non-scoring tanks are an inherent disadvantage in any kind of balanced scenario beyond "kill 'em all", especially when your elite assault troops are dependent on such tanks as their primary delivery mode.

That's odd...most of my oppoents groan when they see those serpents. 

Anyway, aplogies to those who took offense. It wasn't intended that way.

Lazarus.

Posted by: keezus

Lazarus:  You are missing the point.  The majority of the posters are not complaining that the new eldar list can not powergame.  They are complaining that the units which were no good are still no good.

No, that would be they who are missing the point. Many of the old units that no one used are getting substantial buffs or point drops...in some cases both.

Any fool can assemble a:

Farseer + Bike and some toys
Farseer + Bike and some toys
Guardians x10 w/ scatterlaser (Mandatory)
Guardians x10 w/ scatterlaser (Mandatory)
Firedragons x5 w/ Exarch
Firedragons x5 w/ Exarch
Firedragons x5 w/ Exarch
Vyper w/ brightlance
Vyper w/ brightlance
Falcon w/ all toys
Falcon w/ all toys
Falcon w/ all toys

10 scoring units

W00t.  No new models needed for Keezus!  I almost don't need to paint anything new to field this list except for making some bike farseers.  Horrible!

Why on earth would you use this list with the new codex? Why brightlances on the vypers?(most do not use single shot weapons on vypers and guide is better served on the falcons if used.)

If the Autarch will add +1 to reserve rolls it looks like to be a good tourney choice...at least one game of every tourney I attend is escalation.

A fire prism may be a good switchout for the falcon. Higher BS means you don't have to marry a seer to it and it's alt fire mode gives it some versatility.

I'll be trading some of my vypers for cheap jetbike units with a shuriken cannon or two. Scoring and more survivability to boot. Add in a warlock or seer and you can bust tanks as well.....I'll bet we see alot less vypers overall with the new codex.

Just give the dex a chance. Once my knee jerk reaction subsided I started to see alot of potnetial for my lists. I'm looking forward to playing like I haven't in a long time.

Lazarus.

I still think the 'dex is going to give us a lot of options for exploiting enemy weaknesses.  The shot reduction on Starcannon is an unnecessary nerf that blows chunks, but overall using combined arms and playing smart seem like the way to go.

Yes, there is a big proliferation of AP 4 weaponry, but there's a counter to just about any of the common AP 4 workhorses that are out there.  How many times do you see HBs on Tac squads at a competative level?  More often, aren't AP 4 on terminators, tornadoes, dreds and devestator squads?

Termies can be countered by Fire Dragons, Prisms (especially if the termies deepstrike), and Shining Spears.

Tornadoes can be countered by any of our vehicles (especially Wave Serpents of all things, assuming the field works the same as before) and Warp Spiders.

Dreds can be countered by any kind of anti-tank, which any competative list should have plenty of.

HB Devestator squads can be countered by our AV 12 skimmers, Dragons,  Spears, and Scorpions (under the right circumstances).

Sure, all these units have counters in turn, but that's the nature of the game.  Match your strengths to your opponent's weaknesses better than he can do the same and you've got the advantage.  With the mobility and firepower we've got, we shouldn't have any insurmountable challenges in front of us.  Build your list with the counters an enemy will have for it in mind, and learn to use your advantages rather than focusing on the weaknesses.

I just don't get the problem, but maybe I'm just an optimistic fool afterall...

Posted by: keezus

However, now that CTM is a thing of the past, the Fireprism looks even more unworkable than ever, since any glance result = can not shoot for a turn (or worse) - 2/3 of the results will pretty much end the tank's usefulness (weapon destroyed / vehicle destroyed) - and now the Prism must expose itself to fire - and AV12 isn't hard to glance.

The falcon will suffer the same problems with glancing hits with the only saving grace of being able to carry a small unit. Obviously a weapon destroyed result is worse on the prism but you don't run into that all too often. (at least I don't).

With the cannon upgrades being cheaper (along with tons of other stuff) it looks as if we can simply have more stuff to use. As Mahu suggest you could use 2 prisms and only expose one at a time. I'm not sure if I'll be using more than one but I'll certainly use one. Sometimes people have to understand that a unit's worth is not only measured by what it can kill. My falcons almost never kill their points worth but will be worth far more by the VP's they deny my opponent and by being able to score objectives late in the game.

People defend the old spirit stones like it was an automatic deal of shaking off a glance result. On average, if you were glanced twice you were not going to be shooting anyways. Now, my skimmers are going to be even more survivable for less points? The dragons that ride in the falcons are getting better & cheaper?

I'm psyched overall about this new codex. It won't be obviously broken (I don't think so anyways lol) but it will be competitive. I have been very competitive with this dex for a long time and usually without resorting to any of the normal "crutches" that people fall back on. I've played a big council and a disruption list a total of two times in over 100 tourney games. With that in mind I can't see anything but improvements for my list I'm currently using. The loses affect me very little.

BTW, I heard that when combining shots on the prism it also counts as TL...

Lazarus.

Sure it might take a few glancing hits to kill a Falcon, but you're forgetting that once you immobilise it, the Fire Dragons are stranded in a death zone with their 12" range guns and T3 and 4+ armor save.. They won't have range anywhere in the following turn. Next turn that same Falcon becomes destroyed by penetrating hits. You're counting far too much into the new vectored engines too, in fact you seem to assume the immobilised results are simply 'ignored'. There will come many a time when you'd rather have decoy launchers instead of the new vectored engines, since you're actually trying to transport passengers somewhere.

The new Avatar will be easy pickings indeed. He's got the old statline except +1I and +1A and he's armed with a meltagun, for about 70 points extra. He will walk for 4 turns doing nothing, getting shot a couple times, and then someone kills him. There's no reason at all why you should even include him in the army we're talking about.

Las/plas squads don't die easy at all to Storm Guardian squads. Their lascannon and plasma gun will survive. In addition you're ignoring the fact that earlier in the rumour section someone mentioned that Storm Guardians with dual flamers and lock with Destructor don't even exist anymore in the new book.

Ok I pretend we play on open flat field and Eldar get the first turn. He'll move up, wipe out a squad of Obliterators with his pulse lasers and starcannons and shuriken cannons. Two bright lances fire at a Predator and ... what? Blow it up? Do the math psycho-boy. What you will achieve is one ignored result and one failed AP roll, if you even hit. Then it's the end of your turn. Fire two more bright lances and you might actually destroy a heavy bolter.

50% of the time on that open flat field the IW will immobilise or destroy all of your Falcons with their 16 lascannons (some of them twin-linked) due to penetrating hits, and you have lost the game, since even if one of the Falcons is unaffected it will die on turn two. You won't have models on the table at the end of tour four.

You doubt IW can win 30%? I would be very surprised if IW don't win 80% of the games against such a blast from the past, been there done that, tried and tested and failed miserably -type of army. What has changed in the aforementioned Eldar force since the previous Codex and edition of 40K? Your firepower has decreased significantly since the Starcannon lost 33% of its effectiveness. Wave Serpents are no longer scoring units. You can now invest 20 points per tank so that the first immobilised result doesn't destroy you, although it does immobilise you, and then your cargo isn't going anywhere and you start losing more guns. Your Fire Dragons' guns have gained 2 points of strength. So these four changes (which include two massive nerfs) in your opinion suddenly make a mediocre, tier 2 force a GT contender? Think again. There's a big chance the people you play with 'at the local store' are complete retards, but most of the top contenders aren't, and pushing Falcons forward isn't all that simple then.

All I'm saying, ease up on the absolutes. The world isn't black and white, and armies aren't either all-powerful or total rubbish. You have no clue what you're talking about, and yet you post like a madman.

Constantly harp on? I mentioned it once as an example why Godzilla Tyranids with no Gaunts is weaker than Godzilla Tyranids with Gaunts, and now you use it as a benchmark army in all threads. It's you who constantly harps on it.

I wanted to stop reading after you claimed Eldar have more firepower than the 'benchmark' Iron Warriors, but regardless of your completely failure in counting up the guns and their ranges, I went on and discovered the so-called improvements to the Falcon. Half of those have existed for years now, and are not new at all.

You should really do less maths. From 1.5 BL hits 0.75 glance and 0.75 penetrate? The rules of physics don't apply to your models, and even your weapons achieve miraculous results. Rolls of one and two and three do nothing, the roll of four glances, and rolls of five and six penetrate. That means 2 TL Bright Lances cause 0.25 glancing hits and 0.5 penetrating hits. Your Wave Serpents thus have less than a 0.3 chance of destroying a single Predator out of four. Like those odds?