If you think about it, only one faction in the whole of 40K is even close to "Good" and that would be the Tau Empire. And maybe, just maybe, the Eldar.
Think about it-
Followers of the Emperor (Humans) Are sole content on destroying anything alien, heretic or machine; What I'm saying is, essentially, the Emperor is right-winged.
Next are the Necrons who, quite obviously, are evil. Set out to destroy all life, anyone who calls them good needs help. And if you ask me, they are most likely to come out on top.
The Orks live for war and killing, and are bred for the fight.
Tyranids are, by instinct, ferocious. Some may argue they are not evil, but... no. They have supposedly consumed galaxies, and the universe is better off without them.
Chaos is hell-bent on blowing up, burning, ripping and shooting everything. The living embodiment of evil, down to the last stinking Nurgling.
Dark Eldar are the pirates of space, with a sprinkle of witchery and a slight hint of chaos. You simply can't call them friendly.
As for the Eldar, they fight to save their dying race, only to save the craftworld.
And the Tau, they only fight to bring peace. But in the 41st millennium, guns speak louder than words.
Tau kill anyone/anything that refuses to join the cause of the Greater Good.
Meaning, everyone else.
They're just as bad as the Imperium in some ways, except they're not also trying to kill each other because one of them might be an unregistered psyker or alien...
But I do agree, in the Grimdark of 40k- Tau are about as close as you could come to "good" in the sense of black&white morality.
The Imperium of Man is "good" in the sense that they're trying to preserve humanity, however misguided and quite likely corrupt they all may be.
It all depends on your human point of view. To orks, they are the only good because they are always willing to do 'propa fightin.'
But yeah, from a westernized moral standpoint, I'd rather live with the Tau than anywhere else in that universe, just based on the apparent benevolence of their mantra and their fair(ish) society.
What? Better than annihilation and death camps. / Joke
But yeah, even the Tau have their not so pretty side. They have to enforce their policy somehow, right? I remember a reference in a DoW game that the human populations of the conquered worlds just kind petered out after a few generations, but I haven't actually read any hard fluff on forced sterilizations or work camps. I was under the impression that humans were allowed to go on with their lives so long as the contributed to the Greater Good (which is an ultimatum really).
Well, their birth rates dropped of precipitously because most were segregated into gender-specific "re-education camps", where they are shown to be fed wholesale to giant monsters. And then the voice strongly implies there may have been some biological/chemical trickery going on as well.
You "forgot" to tell that it was mentioned in a non-GW product ... in a parallel universe where the planet is won by Tau (didn't happen in the 40k universe) ... narrated by an Imperial narrator .... as the third likeliest version why females separated from males don't get so many children (ask Mom and Dad where babies come from )
So you "forgot" an awful lot, just for some Tau hatemongering. Happens when hate is stronger than reason.
Interesting supposition. Saying a Tyranid is evil is like saying a lion or shark is evil. No matter how many people they devour, they are merely following their instincts with no malicious intent. The Tyranids just happen to be a lot better at it. hmmm... I'll buy it!
Start a poll of who is the least evil race and I'll choose Tyranids. (Notice: least evil, not most benevolent. Being not evil does not make one good.)
Hmmm but the Tyranids are being guided by the intellect of the hive mind who suppresses their natural instincts and makes them do stuff like bum rush an IG gunline. I suppose the question would be, is the hive mind following its instincts, or is it a malicious conscious independent entity.
And for some reason I just got a mental image of an evil ancient psychic shark using telepathy to coordinate his sharkling attacks on a surfer beach.
Tau are "good" but just a little socially racist (or speciesist? )
but the tyranids will stop at nothing to consime the galaxy.
I think i'd rather live under Tau's misguided socialism than be consumed by a thousand drooling jaws devouring the souls of the innocent.
Juss sayin'....
The Imperium and the Tau are not all that different, except they use different methods of population control
"re-education camps" v.s. "exterminatus"
juss sayin'.....
The orks actually. They dont fight for any other reason than fighting itself. The Tau I'd call as evil as chaos to be honest with their ethnic cleansing (tricking people into being sterilized if the empire want to control their population by lacing drugs in their food supplies).
Please stop quoting DoW as canon. It is not a GW-released product and any storyline in the game is irrelevant because it is different for each and every race.
There are also other explanations for the birth rate dropping than "chemical sterilization" that the ~imperial~ voice implies.
I would agree that Orks are not necessarily evil or malicious, they're effectively just having fun in their own way... They even respect other race's warriors that best them (see: Yarrick and Ghazzy).
To best analyze them, they're children. They're playing and having fun how they were programmed and raised to have fun.
Every other race is serving a somewhat sinister purpose, it's just that Tau have a more positive air of "uniting all races in peace and harmony".
Tyranids may not be naturally evil, but the Hive Mind seems to be an utterly evil and malicious entity... The simple fact that there are special characters that display some sort of intelligence (Swarmlord) in the book makes a case that the Hive Mind's creatures are somewhat self-aware when they're synaptic and the Hive Mind shows tactics and strategy.
The only case for Tyranids not being evil is that without the Hive Mind's influence the little buggers revert to animal instinct.
Dark Eldar are evil in the sense that they delight in perverse activities and slavery. Generally evil, but they do try to avoid any sort of feeding the chaos gods (does hiding within the warp prevent your actions giving them power?)...
Eldar are evil in so much as they are trying to preserve their race and are very aloof and secretive. They're only evil because they care little for the affairs of humanity and do little to outright help when their farseers witness future events and do little to stop tragedies.
The Imperium say 'worship the emperor human or die heretic/xenos/witch'
The Dark Eldar say 'Be tortured then die'
The Tyranids say 'Yum, food'
The Eldar say 'be manipulated by us and then die'
The Orks say 'Lets have a fight lads - time for you to die!'
The Chaos Gods say 'Join us and burn in hell for eternity!'
C'tan say 'Yum, souls'
PS. Well, I guess the Orks aren't THAT evil in retrospect. Still, I think they are more evil than Tau because they will fight (and try to kill you) anyway. Again, unlike Tau; the only race that will give you (no matter what species) a choice OTHER than dying!
I think that you want to apply modern (western) morality to the world of Warhammer 40k. And if we want to do that, then sure. Although your original post seems to indicate that 'right wing' is synonymous with evil. Which...it isn't. I'm sorry, but in a world with orks who want to kill me for fun, C'tan who want to kill me for my soul, Eldar who want to kill me because they think I am a psychopathic primitive, Dark Eldar who want to enslave and then kill me, and Tau who want me to work for them in their little brainwashed cult, I will happily side with the 'right wing' side that thinks that the concerns of the human race should come first.
But hey, that's probably because I'm a human. If I were a Tau (or an ork or necron) I would probably think differently.
It has been mentioned before that orks are like children when it comes to being evil. Children sometimes break toys when they're playing, sometimes orks break bones/ skulls/ tanks/ etc... when they are playing.
They have no evil intent other than finding a good fight and stomping on some 'eads.
In_Theory wrote:Tau kill anyone/anything that refuses to join the cause of the Greater Good.
Meaning, everyone else.
They're just as bad as the Imperium in some ways, except they're not also trying to kill each other because one of them might be an unregistered psyker or alien...
But I do agree, in the Grimdark of 40k- Tau are about as close as you could come to "good" in the sense of black&white morality.
The Imperium of Man is "good" in the sense that they're trying to preserve humanity, however misguided and quite likely corrupt they all may be.
not trying to kill each other? are you kidding? have you never heard of O'Shovah? he hates his own empire as much as he hates the orks
not trying to kill each other? are you kidding? have you never heard of O'Shovah? he hates his own empire as much as he hates the orks
Maybe YOU should read some fluff once in a while. Farsight doesn't hate other tau at all...
That blade that he has isn't necessarily good for his health and the Farsight Enclaves are not known for their aggresivness against other tau. It is prety much much a 'I don't need you anymore' kind of thing with a kid and his parents.
Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:It is, quite clearly, Dark Eldar.
Whatever, depends what you define as "evil" doesn't it? The Dark Eldar are not actively helping Chaos, therefore they are not as evil as other races.
Helping Chaos isn't the definition of evil. If the Dark Eldar torture and murder people for enjoyment, then I think that's "evil" regardless of whether they serve chaos or not. Chaos is just a manifestation of emotions and thought. Of course, that's not to say that the followers of Chaos are not evil, and that the beliefs of chaos don't fall in line with what we consider "Evil", I'm just trying to say that Chaos isn't the definitive evil of 40K universe.
I'm not really sure if that's what you meant in your post, correct me if I'm wrong.
Dark Eldar are evil in the sense that they delight in perverse activities and slavery. Generally evil, but they do try to avoid any sort of feeding the chaos gods (does hiding within the warp prevent your actions giving them power?)...
Dark Eldar live in the Webway, I think, not the warp.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:but the DE are not evil... they torture people to keep slannesh at bay
Sure, but don't you get the impression they kinda-sorta enjoy it while they're at it? And besides, making other people suffer in order to stave off an evil you created isn't exactly noble in the first place.
I said nids... I mean, they're not evil. They're just hungry. Really really hungry, in that *must consume all organic matter in the universe* type of way.
Also, Tau ethereals are hinted to posses chemical pheremones that make other Tau very agreeable with them, so the entire race is actually under a sort of 'happy pill' of some sort, the only dissenters being the hated Farsight Enclaves. The entire idea of Tau being 'Good' is in fact a huge joke by some *gasp* creative GW writers. Tau are just another form of xenos tyranny that threatens mankinds survival, one with a veneer of civility.
I would say...Space Wolves! They fight to protect humanity from extinction and always show a sense of compassion and morality that seems to be lacking with anyone else in the 41st millenium. They fight to protect what is worth saving and unlike many other space marine chapters they are not above disobeying orders (and outright attacking imperial forces) when they believe the wrong thing is being done.
That being said the rest of the imperium is not what I would consider 'good'. They were once good under the emperor but once he died humanity's morals and ethics went backwards, as did their technology. The emperor went from being a benevolent leader to a god and the tradition and doctrine imposed by the ecclesiarchy does not really reflect anything the emperor would have stood for while he was alive. The imperium is highly corrupt and racist and any society that kills its own soldiers in order to save face cannot be 'good.' i would say different parts of the imperium vary between 'good' 'morally ambiguous' and 'evil'
The eldar are a fallen race seeking redemption for the decadence and immorality of their society which led to the destruction of their civilization and the birth of slaanesh. they are neither evil or good but under the guidence of their farseers they carry out acts both evil and good to further the greater good in the end. I suppose the eldar are firm believers that the end justifies the means. In the end i rate them morally ambiguous.
tyranids are not evil any more than an animal is evil, but the driving intelligence of the hive mind which leads them to kill and consume seems to qualify as evil to me. it seems very similar to the flood off of halo: animalistic parisites consuming the galaxy driven by a massive and malicious interconnecting intelligence. they rate morally ambigous
orcs are simple and brutal creatures focused on anarchy, war, fighting and destruction. just because they are simple doesn't make their actions of unnecessary killing, violence and destructions any less evil. they enjoy what they do and are aware their actions are not good, much like an incredibly violent, very large and malicious child. the also rate morally ambigous.
as for chaos, dark eldar and necrons? these guys enjoy and thrive on acts of killing, murder, rape, torture and other unnessecarly brutal and violent acts. nuff said: evil
tau work for the 'greater good' and the hopes of an ideal science fiction utopian society. they strive to bring peace, order and harmony to a galaxy plagued by war, violence and hatred between races. probably a futile and hopless task but a noble cause nonetheless. I'd rate the tau as good, although probably slightly disillusioned and misguided.
Irdiumstern wrote:Eldar will murder anyone else to keep their race alive, therefore Evil.
The only "good" races are the Nids and Orks, because neither actually has any sort of morality.
Self-preservation is evil?
Do tell me, if a guy charges my family with a knife and I blow his brains out am I evil? Or would the good thing be to watch my family die in front of me? This is exactly what you're suggesting the Eldar should do to be 'good'.
The Imperium is the same way with a big dose of traumatic history thrown in for good measure. They are both struggling to survive and keep their people alive. Nothing evil about that.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Tau are seeking to expand and oppress. Imperium and Eldar are all about survival an preservation. So Tau are more evil than Eldar or the Imperium.
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
Irdiumstern wrote:Eldar will murder anyone else to keep their race alive, therefore Evil.
The only "good" races are the Nids and Orks, because neither actually has any sort of morality.
Self-preservation is evil?
Do tell me, if a guy charges my family with a knife and I blow his brains out am I evil? Or would the good thing be to watch my family die in front of me? This is exactly what you're suggesting the Eldar should do to be 'good'.
Except that isn't exactly what the eldar do. If you were an eldar, you would manipulate the knife-guy in such a way that he never even meets your family, but goes on to murder 10 other, also innocent families. But, hey, you don't care, it was somebody else, not yout. That's how the eldar roll. They would gladly sacrifice a human world of millions in order to save an exodite colony of a few hundred.
Irdiumstern wrote:Eldar will murder anyone else to keep their race alive, therefore Evil.
The only "good" races are the Nids and Orks, because neither actually has any sort of morality.
Self-preservation is evil?
Do tell me, if a guy charges my family with a knife and I blow his brains out am I evil? Or would the good thing be to watch my family die in front of me? This is exactly what you're suggesting the Eldar should do to be 'good'.
Except that isn't exactly what the eldar do. If you were an eldar, you would manipulate the knife-guy in such a way that he never even meets your family, but goes on to murder 10 other, also innocent families. But, hey, you don't care, it was somebody else, not yout. That's how the eldar roll. They would gladly sacrifice a human world of millions in order to save an exodite colony of a few hundred.
If we're going there the ten people he kills were also going to kill the family at a later date. Don't forget that humans are a threat to the Eldar as well.
@OP- it is polls like this one where there initial post has a definitive bias for the Tau that makes people dislike the Tau and most of their players. Way to help the cause, bro.
I didn't vote because there isn't an "all of the above" or a "good and evil are subjetive" option.
I could see the Tau becoming a protectorate. The Imperium realizes that it would be useful if they help the Tau to expand across the fronteir and to vastly increase their number.
This would be because the Tyranids absorb the physical characteristics of their enemies and that fighting nothing but Tau would make the 'Nids slower, weaker and shorter lived.
Im pretty sure the nids only absorb the positive characteristcs of raches they find. So all they would really get from the Tau would be, the ability to build vehicles with very clean lines.
Here's my opinion of each race. Besides Chaos, Dark Eldar and Necrons, who are just pure evil, each race is evil but also not.
Imperium: They fight to survive and prosper while serving the Emperor. However, they are incredibly racist and will destroy entire worlds for the sake of their empire.
Eldar: They are trying to rid the galaxy of Chaos and Necrons while simultaneously keeping themselves alive as long as possibile. Their methods of doing so can be rather evil though.
Orks: They fight, they kill, they fight some more. Evil? Yes. But they can't help it. That's how they were genetically programmed. It's in their nature to fight and kill. You can't fight nature.
Tyranids: They destroy entire worlds. But they do so in order for their own race to survive. They don't eat, they all die. It's just in their nature to devour everything.
Tau: They are trying to conquer the galaxy and bring an age of peace "For the Greater Good." But how they do that can be very evil. "Join us or die." "Everyone is equal, but Tau are more equal than you."
The way I see the Warhammer universe is there is no black and white. Just black and mixed shades of grey.
Melissia wrote:A lot of people forget that the Imperium has xeno protectorates under its wing...
Imperial Protectorates aren't like modern day ones. It's more like "we'll kill you later when we have troops to pull off the line from fighting somewhere more important." They're more like Quarantine zones. Jokearo are a special case because as you pointed out it can be argued that they are not sentient and pose no risk.
Catyrpelius wrote:Im pretty sure the nids only absorb the positive characteristcs of raches they find. So all they would really get from the Tau would be, the ability to build vehicles with very clean lines.
And pheremones, and extremely persuasive negotiators, and instinctive space pilots, and dedicated warriors, and the ability to do with very little sleep, and resistance to desert conditions, and adaptability to lots of other conditions.
However they have already eaten one Tau so they have all this already.
Melissia wrote:A lot of people forget that the Imperium has xeno protectorates under its wing...
Imperial Protectorates aren't like modern day ones. It's more like "we'll kill you later when we have troops to pull off the line from fighting somewhere more important." They're more like Quarantine zones. Jokearo are a special case because as you pointed out it can be argued that they are not sentient and pose no risk.
And if other xeno species prove they are no risk, then they too would be under the same situation. Tau obviously can't prove that.
Not if they're sentient. Otherwise they'll end up with another Tau situation. Jokearo are pretty unique in that they are monkeys that can make microcircuitry.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Tau are seeking to expand and oppress. Imperium and Eldar are all about survival an preservation. So Tau are more evil than Eldar or the Imperium.
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
Xenos lies and you know it!
Luco wrote:
ashrog wrote:
Luco wrote:
Irdiumstern wrote:Eldar will murder anyone else to keep their race alive, therefore Evil.
The only "good" races are the Nids and Orks, because neither actually has any sort of morality.
Self-preservation is evil?
Do tell me, if a guy charges my family with a knife and I blow his brains out am I evil? Or would the good thing be to watch my family die in front of me? This is exactly what you're suggesting the Eldar should do to be 'good'.
Except that isn't exactly what the eldar do. If you were an eldar, you would manipulate the knife-guy in such a way that he never even meets your family, but goes on to murder 10 other, also innocent families. But, hey, you don't care, it was somebody else, not yout. That's how the eldar roll. They would gladly sacrifice a human world of millions in order to save an exodite colony of a few hundred.
If we're going there the ten people he kills were also going to kill the family at a later date. Don't forget that humans are a threat to the Eldar as well.
Not necessarily. The Eldar don't care whether those ten other families were friends, enemies or completely unconnected, so long as it isn't Eldar that are biting the dust they're happy.
And apart from the previous colonisation of Eldar Maiden worlds, which can't be helped due to the ignorance of humans regarding the fertile nature of the planet, the Imperium has a "let sleeping dogs lie" approach towards Eldar, mainly becuase the last time they tried torching a Craftworld they lost the better half of a sector fleet. In this regard humans aren't the biggest threat Eldar have to face, and act as a sort of shield against those very real enemies.
If you had to choose:
Kill a 1000 ants or let your family die...
Would you even doubt about it?
That is the way Eldar see it.
Is this bad? Your choice.
Tau are evil as any othere race " join us , become a slave and mindless drone , or die becuase you don't beleve in the Greater good " . Tau are slaves to there sad religon the "Greater good" its just as evil as chaos.
blood reaper wrote:Tau are evil as any othere race " join us , become a slave and mindless drone , or die becuase you don't beleve in the Greater good " . Tau are slaves to there sad religon the "Greater good" its just as evil as chaos.
Poor example. Chaos in and of itself is not Evil, it is just not structured(Lawful). The reason I haven't voted or really participated in this thread is because Good and Evil are both subjective with most things that are considered evil being completely dependent upon the enviroment that you exist in.
When looking at the environment of the 40K universe, there are a couple of races that really can't be defined as evil.
1)The Tyranids, really have no free will in the matter, they are just feeding like any other predator or virus.
2)Orks are following a genetically preprogrammed personality. Their very nature is war and rebirth.
While the other races can make the excuse that they are just trying to survive, that is just a rationalization for the evil things that they are doing. Of these Races The Tau do stand out as being willing to cooperate with other races and will treat their prisoners well(Before you start there is nothing within the written history of the game that says other-wise, People need to realize the difference between video games supplied by 3rd parties and the game that GW produces.), but thay still will kill every thinking creature that does not accept their Greater Good. There is no way to define a race or nation as good or evil, when doing so you are just imposing your set of abstract concepts upon someone elses.
The best descriptor would be that most are Amoral entities. The possible exception to this could be the Dark Eldar, they are possibly the only truely evil faction within 40K, because thay have dedicated themselves to being evil.
blood reaper wrote:Tau are evil as any othere race " join us , become a slave and mindless drone , or die becuase you don't beleve in the Greater good " . Tau are slaves to there sad religon the "Greater good" its just as evil as chaos.
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
I voted Tau. Sure they kill you if you don't join the greater good but as there is no real definition of the greater good it isn't hard to qualify. All you have to do is accept trade and not kill each other and your ok.
1) Tyranids are, by their very nature, self-destructive and counter-productive. In the end, once they have nothing left to eat, they will starve. Though you might as well compare varocious nasy-gribbly-looking locusts and call them evil.
Is that evil? Probably not, but meh.
2) Orks also practice slavery on humans. As far as I can make sense of the issue this can't possibly be genetically programmed.
Evil?
It all depends as to whether you view Evil as relative and, if not, then how is it defined.
Im confused as to why everyone is saying eldar are evil. They avoid fighting whenever they can and only fight when they forsee that it will make their future safer and result in less loss of eldar life, or to defend their maiden worlds. Not wanting to die isn't evil.
Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.
Nids are just hungry, but when percieved from the food's point of view, its evil necrons want to destroy all life, thats pretty evil.
Chaos want the galaxy to burn, i'd class that as a bit evil.
Dark Eldar are profesional in slavery and torture, evil.
Orks live to fight, its just what they are made to do, its not particulary evil, its just what they do.
The Imperium are supposedly the good guys but they will happily throw a million soldiers a day to their death with a flashlight to defend themselves, thats more ruthless than evil, but its definitly not good
Gorechild wrote:Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
One of the reasons I wanted to play Tau was the fact that they were 'the Good Guys' (or rather the 'less bad' guys). The other was that they were like the Covenant and the Federation. I usually pretend they are humans who are independent of the Imperium of Man. Thats why all my firewarriors wear their helmets
In the Dark Eldar codex, it mentions how they are the most evil malicious race in 40k.
I have a hard time seeing the Tau as Communist...they have a rigid caste system, etc.
I can definitely sympathize with calling the Eldar "evil," as they have been pushed to extremes when it comes to preserving their race (not any more than the Imperium, though, what with Exterminatus and all).
Also, @Focusedfire: Your definition of Chaos as not evil,just lacking order, is perhaps dictionary correct but I don't think it holds water in the 40k universe. The point is, as I understand it, is that sentient life has give Chaos order through hatred, jealousy, and anger. To me, it is pretty cut and dried that Chaos in the 40k setting is intended to be evil incarnate.
Oh, and I definitely agree with disregardign the DoW games as solid fluff sources. I still remember the dialouge for the "Eliminate the IG" mission in Soulstorm that stated the base had just shipped out 100(!) Baneblade tanks for use elsewhere in the same system.
if you ask me, necrons are not essentially evil, it is the c'tan who are the evil ones. The Deciever tricked the Necrotyr into becoming the C'tan's slaves, killing or harvesting souls for the C'tan to consume. Necrons have no 'consciousness' of whats going on around them, its only the lords who remember a bit of their past lives. so, necrons are just mindless husks.
I see everyone saying Eldar or Tau isn't evil.
But at the end of the day, every race will have the same motives:
My race has to survive.
The way they achieve it can vary from race to race.
2) Orks also practice slavery on humans. As far as I can make sense of the issue this can't possibly be genetically programmed.
Evil?
It all depends as to whether you view Evil as relative and, if not, then how is it defined.
How can the Orks have mechanical and medical abilities genetically preprogrammed? Also, the Orks treat their human captives better than they treat their own Grots so from an Ork stand point they treat the humans fairly well.
It is nor wherher you veiw the consept as relative. It is whether or not you can accept the fact that it is relative and purely dependent upon the conditions in which you were raised.
Gorechild wrote:Im confused as to why everyone is saying eldar are evil. They avoid fighting whenever they can and only fight when they forsee that it will make their future safer and result in less loss of eldar life, or to defend their maiden worlds. Not wanting to die isn't evil.
Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.
Nids are just hungry, but when percieved from the food's point of view, its evil necrons want to destroy all life, thats pretty evil.
Chaos want the galaxy to burn, i'd class that as a bit evil.
Dark Eldar are profesional in slavery and torture, evil.
Orks live to fight, its just what they are made to do, its not particulary evil, its just what they do.
The Imperium are supposedly the good guys but they will happily throw a million soldiers a day to their death with a flashlight to defend themselves, thats more ruthless than evil, but its definitly not good
1)The Eldar are Prideful and arrogant, this is considered an evil trait. They were also responsible for creating the Eye of Terror and Slanesh. The fact that they have to constantly guard against their own nature or become like the Dark Eldar doesn't inspire poeple to believe that they are basically good. Again, Good and evil are relative concepts.
2) The fact that the Tau give other races the option to join is decidedly less evil than the other races that make free will decision of kill them all without question.Most races in 40K just have a "die" attitude towards other races. Now, the Tau's practice of methodically killing those whom oppose them could be viewed as good or evil depending upon which side you support.
3)Yet from a natural Darwinian point of view the Tyranids are not evil and could be viewed as an ultimate evolutionary form could be considered by some as something good to aspire to.
4) Chaos's wish for the galaxy to burn could be seen as a good thing. Much like a forset fire burning through an overgrown forest. It clears off the choking undergrowth and leaves only the healthiest alive with a renewed area for growth. Evil from the under brush side of things, but eventually a good thing for the trees and fuana.
5)I mentioned the Dark Eldar as an exception in that they have made the conscious choice to be evil. Yet their decision is good for them in that it keep them safe from other forces.
6)Agreed on the Orks
7) I agree to some extent. IG/Imperium can be viewed as either good or evil. They are a force of wanton destruction that regularlt commits Genocide on a System wide level but they are a force that protects the lives of 500 trillion lives.
Again, the concept of good and evil is a relative one.
Tyranids are not evil at all , there just trying to surive.
Chaos is partly evil , but truly its just in constant civil war , just like some one pointded out.
Tau destroy any thing that dont belive in the greater good but still are a great race.
Imperium is good or evil but in the end unites humanity.
Elder made a great mistake and fall .
Orks , they just want to have fun
necrons ... Slaves to the ctan , the true evil behind the necrons.
Dark Elder ... EVIL!
@focusedfire: If it is agreed that enslaving people, by it's nature, is an evil act then it can only be said that Orks certainly aren't bereift of evil. The good treatment is admirable, but ultimately makes little difference (although comparing their treatment to grots isn't that great. And they don't conciously go out of their way to make things more bearable).
Tyranids are by their very nature evil. Their path can only lead to oblivion when either they are defeated or when they consume all biomass and starve themselves. Nothing good can come out of this process, so it can only be seen as evil.
I suppose the same could be argued for orks, but that's a bit of a stretch.
blood reaper wrote:Tau are evil as any othere race " join us , become a slave and mindless drone , or die becuase you don't beleve in the Greater good " . Tau are slaves to there sad religon the "Greater good" its just as evil as chaos.
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
Kroothawk wrote:
Gorechild wrote:Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
Kroothawk wrote:
blood reaper wrote:Tau destroy any thing that dont belive in the greater good but still are a great race.
Please read some background material on Tau before posting stuff like that. Or at least this page here.
How about a less repetitive posts?
Or is it neccessary to repeat yourself, until we all give in to your view?
Why don't you base your argument on the codex/rulebook?
But maybe the design team forgot to repeat their notes there......
Emperors Faithful wrote:He makes a valid point 1hadhq. Just not valid enough.
On a side note, can Communists be considered altruistic and idealistic?
From our real life examples of self proclaimed communists here in europe: NO.
In a SF universe, GW may claim whatever they want.
Still, 40k is a dark place (looking at the intro of the rulebook) and I doubt the intend of a race of 'good guys' on GW's part.
Different motives, sure.
But the course of the background is somtimes erraneous, ( example BA/necrons ), and I wouldn't bet my firstborn child on
a weak argument like designers notes predating the first codex.
IMO, Tau got the caste system from india, the way of the warrior from japan, the communist approach to education and indoctrination,
work like an ant-hill ( greater good, etheral=queen ) and were a fine addition to 40k until their fans got mad at those disagreeing with them. People make fun of races in a good humored way, but if you criticise Tau, youre gonna burn as it seems you just pissed in their coffee. I don't know, when I ask which other codex/race uses designers notes as argument, there is only silence.
As the 'greater good' is some sort of ideology and ideology isn't considered a good thing, as 'unbelievers' will not stay unharmed when the 'believers' intend to reach 100%. Plus 40k isn't meant for less casualities, its expanding to have more explosions and fiery death.
So Peace and goodwill contradicts the intend of 'eternal war', which is the motto of 40k.
Tau can't act as good guys, as the game universe demands conflicts, therefore a reason to oppose them has to exist.
See, don't need to make em bad guys, just accept the incompatibility of a too positive view of any race.
Ruckdog wrote:I have a hard time seeing the Tau as Communist...they have a rigid caste system, etc.
Also, @Focusedfire: Your definition of Chaos as not evil,just lacking order, is perhaps dictionary correct but I don't think it holds water in the 40k universe. The point is, as I understand it, is that sentient life has give Chaos order through hatred, jealousy, and anger. To me, it is pretty cut and dried that Chaos in the 40k setting is intended to be evil incarnate.
1)Good to see someone who knows the defintion of communism.
2)Chaos is not evil until the civilizations of certain sentient races achieve enough of a population denisty that their latent Psychic abilities and subconcious thoughts begin to give shape to the Emyprium. Due to this, Chaos in and of itself is not evil, rather it is either these races or the forming of civilizations that are what would be called evil.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I've just learned that Tau practice slavery too. In the Taros Campaign human POWs get sentanced to hard labour for life for the greater good.
It is not agreed that "Life Imprisonment" is universally or always evil. "Modern day" society makes to distinction between incarceration and enslavement. In this case your claim of slavery is arguable. Sentencing threats to the State to life imprisonment has always been accepted and is not in and of itself any more evil that just commiting exterminatus/genocide. Though some would argue it to be less evil.
BTW, Though personally disagreeing with these "modern day" distinctions I understand the necessity of renaming an act that is a politically incorrect necessity.(More or less that the concept of a necessarry evil disproves the existence of good and evil as absolutes.)
Emperors Faithful wrote:@focusedfire: If it is agreed that enslaving people, by it's nature, is an evil act then it can only be said that Orks certainly aren't bereift of evil. The good treatment is admirable, but ultimately makes little difference (although comparing their treatment to grots isn't that great. And they don't conciously go out of their way to make things more bearable).
Tyranids are by their very nature evil. Their path can only lead to oblivion when either they are defeated or when they consume all biomass and starve themselves. Nothing good can come out of this process, so it can only be seen as evil.
1)Life imprisonment has always been accepted and is not in and of itself any more evil that just commiting exterminatus/genocide, though some would argue it to be less evil. Due to this, your argument here is not valid because there has never been a consensus that the act of slavery is bad or evil. While currently the act of privatized slavery is frowned upon the act of slavery(Life imprisonment with hard labour) on the State level is widely accepted.
Quoting myself from an answer above:
"Though personally disagreeing with these "modern day" distinctions I understand the necessity of renaming an act that is a politically incorrect necessity.(More or less that the concept of a necessary evil disproves the existence of good and evil as absolutes.) "
2)It could be argued that extinction of life in this Galaxy could be a good thing if it will remove the taint of "evil" from the Empyr-..(What, GW seems to have abandoned that term, GDGW) from the "warp". Our galaxy is just one in millions that are protected from negatively affecting each other by the vast distances that seperate them, while within the "Realm of Chaos" distances do not really matter and the 40K galaxy's effect upon them may be polluting other galaxies.
Just because we can't perceive the Tyranids as serving a useful or good function does not mean that they are evil or entropic. They could just as easily be a form of immune system response by the universe to deal with cancers within itself.
Emperors Faithful wrote:He makes a valid point 1hadhq. Just not valid enough.
On a side note, can Communists be considered altruistic and idealistic?
Tau are not communist. I know that modern text books tend to ignore thi but the original concept is at a diametrical opposition to a caste system.
1hadhq wrote:
From our real life examples of self proclaimed communists here in europe: NO.
You don't have communists in europe, you have various groups that purport to being communist but most of these groups espouse a philosophy tthat has nothing to do with the teachings of Marx.
Before you mention Lenin, Stalin or Moa please note that all were socialists that claimed to be Communists. The systems they employed had very little to do with the concept of communism as described by Marx.
1hadhq wrote:
In a SF universe, GW may claim whatever they want.
Still, 40k is a dark place (looking at the intro of the rulebook) and I doubt the intend of a race of 'good guys' on GW's part.
Different motives, sure.
But the course of the background is somtimes erraneous, ( example BA/necrons ), and I wouldn't bet my firstborn child on
a weak argument like designers notes predating the first codex.
IMO, Tau got the caste system from india, the way of the warrior from japan, the communist approach to education and indoctrination,
work like an ant-hill ( greater good, etheral=queen ) and were a fine addition to 40k until their fans got mad at those disagreeing with them. People make fun of races in a good humored way, but if you criticise Tau, youre gonna burn as it seems you just pissed in their coffee. I don't know, when I ask which other codex/race uses designers notes as argument, there is only silence.
As the 'greater good' is some sort of ideology and ideology isn't considered a good thing, as 'unbelievers' will not stay unharmed when the 'believers' intend to reach 100%. Plus 40k isn't meant for less casualities, its expanding to have more explosions and fiery death.
So Peace and goodwill contradicts the intend of 'eternal war', which is the motto of 40k.
Tau can't act as good guys, as the game universe demands conflicts, therefore a reason to oppose them has to exist.
See, don't need to make em bad guys, just accept the incompatibility of a too positive view of any race.
1)I disagree with your opinion as to the intent of GW here. IMO, as a writer you need contrast for things to mave meaning. The game of 40K quickly becomes meaningless when set in a galaxy without hope. I veiw GW's move to introduce the Tau as a means of adding such contrast and thus making the darker even darker. This also increases factionalism and helps keep the game fresh and more interesting than just endlessly repeating "For the Emperor". Now you have people saying "For The Greater Good" which encourages competition.
Also, The Ultimate in Grim dark isn't watching an endless struggle for survival, to me it will be watching the youthful idealism of the Tau slowly bleed out and become corrupted by the necessities of surviving within the 41st millenium.
2)I agree with you on the India and Japanese comments, but disagree the use of the word communist in the last part. If you had said totalitarian regimes I could agree, but not with the misuse of the term communist. The Tau's methods of indoctination actually match the methods used by most successful empires: The Egyptian, Alexander's Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, British Empire, United States, Nazi Germany, and Socialist Russia have all had a Join or die approach at one point or another. They all recognized the need of assimilating, enslaving, or killing those they had conquered.
BTW, The reason why Tau fans get touchy is because of the misuse of the term Communist. It is a term that ranks right up there with nazi for many people. You might find that the Tau players show a bit more humor when you stop comparing them and their army to an ideal responsible for more deaths in the last century than nazi-ism and christanity combined. Seriously, You should realize that it would be the same as pointing out that "Your" Imperium armies are all a bunch of nazi's and that the SM's represent the idea of the master race. While I personally can have a calm and reasoned debate as to the merits of either comment, I am not your average player/person that is prone to knee-jerk responses. It is all a matter of who you say such around.
3)Again, I disagree because a little peace and good will makes the 40K universe just that much darker. It forces you to deal with the concept that many of the races probably started off just as idealistically as the Tau but the 40K universe hammers home the concept of time corrupts. Now this doesn't make the Tau good, it means that they are a source of hope that will lead to disappointment as the storyline proceeds into the 41K and later battlefleet gothica enviroment.
Focusedfire I agree with you completely on Tau actualy making it darker. If the setting is hopeless you just give in and accept what you have. If there is a chance for something better but it's very hard to reach and is very small it means you can be worried that they may be destroyed. This is helped by the Tau being a very small empire, with little chance against the imperium.
It also takes the imperium, the species we easiest relate to and the most powerful organisation and shows that they are far from the good guys. It shows us the imperium's laws on killing aliens are not needed, this makes the central forces seem a lot darker.
"The Dark Eldar are inured to terror and death, taking a positive delight in the infliction of pain and misery. Yet there is something that fills their race with an utter dread, driving them onto ever more despicable acts of wanton bloodshed and torture; the Great Enemy; the One Who Thirsts. What the relationship between the Great Enemy and the Dark Eldar is, it is impossible to say. Although the Dark Eldar revel in their own wickedness and evil, there is a desperation about them; an all-consuming horror that forces them to kill and maim ecah other, to fall upon their prey without mercy, as if their very survival depended upon the extremity of the grievous deeds they perform."
The Dark Eldar do what is necessary for them to survive. What they require and what say, the Tau require is completely different. Dark Eldar suffer from The Thirst, an all-consuming and ever-increasing need to drink the souls of other beings. They need to do this, otherwise they die, it's as simple as that. Would you not do whatever was necessary to survive? Does the wish to live really constitute evil?
Gorechild wrote:Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
How about a less repetitive posts?
Or is it neccessary to repeat yourself, until we all give in to your view
If people take more than one minute to actually read Tau background texts before posting, I might consider taking more than one minute to answer. But all those "Tau are bloody communists and eat babies for breakfast" posts are just emotional responses expressing Tau hate and not based on actual evidence.
Exor wrote:"The Dark Eldar are inured to terror and death, taking a positive delight in the infliction of pain and misery. Yet there is something that fills their race with an utter dread, driving them onto ever more despicable acts of wanton bloodshed and torture; the Great Enemy; the One Who Thirsts. What the relationship between the Great Enemy and the Dark Eldar is, it is impossible to say. Although the Dark Eldar revel in their own wickedness and evil, there is a desperation about them; an all-consuming horror that forces them to kill and maim ecah other, to fall upon their prey without mercy, as if their very survival depended upon the extremity of the grievous deeds they perform."
The Dark Eldar do what is necessary for them to survive. What they require and what say, the Tau require is completely different. Dark Eldar suffer from The Thirst, an all-consuming and ever-increasing need to drink the souls of other beings. They need to do this, otherwise they die, it's as simple as that. Would you not do whatever was necessary to survive? Does the wish to live really constitute evil?
If I understand you correctly, the DE are essentially unreasoning animals, that have no choice but to kill as it is their instinctive nature. Much like bacteria, lions or Tyranids.
Whilst I disagree with the premise, if it is granted it puts DE outside the frame of the problem.
Unfortunately the lack of fluff for Dark Eldar means we don't know enoguh to make a truly accurate claim about their true nature. It all seems rather biased towards, "they are evil". They may actually feel remorse for their actions, maybe. Only time will tell.
You don't have communists in europe, you have various groups that purport to being communist but most of these groups espouse a philosophy that has nothing to do with the teachings of Marx.
Before you mention Lenin, Stalin or Mao please note that all were socialists that claimed to be Communists. The systems they employed had very little to do with the concept of communism as described by Marx.
So"self proclaimed communists" wasn't clear? Would like you to teach those who believe themselves beeing communist their wrong. Nobody here assumes any of the "communist" states had followed Marx or Engels.
But asked for the common behaviour of the few available examples of "communists" ( took those claiming to be communist as example) lead me to them not beeing what EF asked for.
Still, the GDR and SED had a bad influence on some of those now joined to us.
And their education was filled with Marx. The GDR could be an example of the application of a concept ( socialists on their way to communism) and its outcome after real life hit the theories... Want a Marx for cheap? I think they have some left...
focusedfire wrote:
1)I disagree with your opinion as to the intent of GW here. IMO, as a writer you need contrast for things to mave meaning. The game of 40K quickly becomes meaningless when set in a galaxy without hope. I view GW's move to introduce the T'au as a means of adding such contrast and thus making the darker even darker. This also increases factionalism and helps keep the game fresh and more interesting than just endlessly repeating "For the Emperor". Now you have people saying "For The Greater Good" which encourages competition.
Also, The Ultimate in Grim dark isn't watching an endless struggle for survival, to me it will be watching the youthful idealism of the Tau slowly bleed out and become corrupted by the necessities of surviving within the 41st millenium.
2)I agree with you on the India and Japanese comments, but disagree the use of the word communist in the last part. If you had said totalitarian regimes I could agree, but not with the misuse of the term communist. The Tau's methods of indoctination actually match the methods used by most successful empires: The Egyptian, Alexander's Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, British Empire, United States, Nazi Germany, and Socialist Russia have all had a Join or die approach at one point or another. They all recognized the need of assimilating, enslaving, or killing those they had conquered.
BTW, The reason why Tau fans get touchy is because of the misuse of the term Communist. It is a term that ranks right up there with nazi for many people. You might find that the Tau players show a bit more humor when you stop comparing them and their army to an ideal responsible for more deaths in the last century than nazi-ism and christanity combined. Seriously, You should realize that it would be the same as pointing out that "Your" Imperium armies are all a bunch of nazi's and that the SM's represent the idea of the master race. While I personally can have a calm and reasoned debate as to the merits of either comment, I am not your average player/person that is prone to knee-jerk responses. It is all a matter of who you say such around.
3)Again, I disagree because a little peace and good will makes the 40K universe just that much darker. It forces you to deal with the concept that many of the races probably started off just as idealistically as the Tau but the 40K universe hammers home the concept of time corrupts. Now this doesn't make the Tau good, it means that they are a source of hope that will lead to disappointment as the storyline proceeds into the 41K and later battlefleet gothica enviroment.
1) The intro of 40k has a lot of hopeless and grimdark x2 in it, so why should I assume GW intends to place T'au as counterpart?
Contrast is neccessary, but 40k existed before Tau become a part of that universe. Where was the counter then?
Yes, GW could use T'au as false hope faction, slowly realizing their ideals doesn't sit well with bazillions of creatures all around them.
The "greater good" isn't a competition for "the emprah", as this greater good lacks a definition in its aims, where the imperial theme is wellknown as it follows the same course as dozens of imperia did over the millenia on our little planet.
IMo, we have "the new guys" in the Tau, not bereft of their ideals and naive enough to get themselves into trouble.
But they are also free of the grudges, other long time factions may hold. Gives them a theme of their own, but they are hard to implant into a campaign with their small empire and lack of "natural" enemies.
2) I dont think I mis-used the term, but i admit the definition of the americans of communism and ours may differ.
Applied the term of communism with the attempts on communism in mind.
To throw egypt ( long lived empire ) rome ( expansionist and successful for centuries) greece ( empire? ) brits ( fine example of an empire) HRE ( empire like empire in whfb, defensive and inner conflicts ) USA ( wanna be replacement of rome but will not last )
3rd reich ( expansive and a real jon or die example ) soviet russia ( expansive and join or die since 1600...) into the same pot?
Have to disagree, as they have not in common what you say they have. take HRE, egypt and greece out and I may agree.
Now, I for one am fine with "my" Imperium beeing expansionistic/xenophobic/weird/..... but nazi?
You know, national -Socialism is just a different flavor of those red regimes.
The imperium is a collection of both, totalitarian regimes and ancient imperia and could be seen as whatever you want, its size allowing for every thinkable way to rule. Calling it nazi wouldn't show the whole picture.
I can live with that facet of the imperium.
3) agreed.
4) timeline = put in stasis until 6th ed?
Kroothawk wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
How about a less repetitive posts?
Or is it neccessary to repeat yourself, until we all give in to your view
If people take more than one minute to actually read Tau background texts before posting, I might consider taking more than one minute to answer. But all those "Tau are bloody communists and eat babies for breakfast" posts are just emotional responses expressing Tau hate and not based on actual evidence.
Did read for more than 10 minutes and I want them BACK!
Seriously, do not assume I enjoy to look at the same content 3 times on a page in a thread. Some people tend to read more than the last 2 posts. So if you got HARD evidence ( ie codex = what made it from notes to printed background ) feel free to post.
Until then, consider repetitive identical posts as annoying and NOT in any case helpful.
Maybe take FF as an example of contributing to a thread?
1hadhq wrote:Seriously, do not assume I enjoy to look at the same content 3 times on a page in a thread. Some people tend to read more than the last 2 posts. So if you got HARD evidence ( ie codex = what made it from notes to printed background ) feel free to post.
Until then, consider repetitive identical posts as annoying and NOT in any case helpful.
Why not post Codex evidence first why
1.) Tau are bloody communists
2.) genocide and sterilize everything and its dog
Difficult to discuss Tau background with people who have no knowledge about the topic, don't give a damn and just post the first insult that comes to their mind. Guess why noone cares to support their claims with evidence? Because there is none.
BTW, I don't enjoy it either to read the same, repetitive, identical and obviously made up lies on Tau in every Tau background thread.
1)Life imprisonment has always been accepted and is not in and of itself any more evil that just commiting exterminatus/genocide, though some would argue it to be less evil. Due to this, your argument here is not valid because there has never been a consensus that the act of slavery is bad or evil. While currently the act of privatized slavery is frowned upon the act of slavery(Life imprisonment with hard labour) on the State level is widely accepted.
Quoting myself from an answer above:
"Though personally disagreeing with these "modern day" distinctions I understand the necessity of renaming an act that is a politically incorrect necessity.(More or less that the concept of a necessary evil disproves the existence of good and evil as absolutes.) "
I'm confused, Orks enslaving an entire world is considered Life Imprisonment on a State level? I'm not entirely sure that this is the correct definition to use here, as Life Imprisonment with hard labour is (ussually) justitfied and accepted on the basis that it is a punishment, where there is little evidence of any sort of judiciary sytem where orks are involved.
Furthermore, if we are agreed that the orks were designed and bred for the express purpose of war and fighting, does that really excuse them from evil? A gun is designed for maiming and the taking of life, but how many consider it to be evil? If the orks aren't evil, was their creation still an evil act? Was their creator therefore evil? I could go on but... Nuts, I hate relativism.
2)It could be argued that extinction of life in this Galaxy could be a good thing if it will remove the taint of "evil" from the Empyr-..(What, GW seems to have abandoned that term, GDGW) from the "warp". Our galaxy is just one in millions that are protected from negatively affecting each other by the vast distances that seperate them, while within the "Realm of Chaos" distances do not really matter and the 40K galaxy's effect upon them may be polluting other galaxies.
Just because we can't perceive the Tyranids as serving a useful or good function does not mean that they are evil or entropic. They could just as easily be a form of immune system response by the universe to deal with cancers within itself.
As I understand it the "Realm of Chaos" is the result of a collaspe/corruption of a mass-transit system similar to (or even the same as) the Webway that was originally created by the Old Ones. As I understand it even the Old Ones never expanded beyond the 40k galaxy, so their transit system could not do so either. Going along that line of logic, it is impossible for the Warp to have done the same, as it is dependant on the Old Ones expansion.
In regards to the Tyranids, I am willing to accept them as Ammoral, but I can never consider them to be good.
Emperors Faithful wrote:He makes a valid point 1hadhq. Just not valid enough.
On a side note, can Communists be considered altruistic and idealistic?
Tau are not communist. I know that modern text books tend to ignore thi but the original concept is at a diametrical opposition to a caste system.
I was going Off Topic here. I am well aware that a Communist and Caste system are vastly different. I was just wondering if Communists (real life ones) can be considered altruistic and idealistic.
3)Again, I disagree because a little peace and good will makes the 40K universe just that much darker. It forces you to deal with the concept that many of the races probably started off just as idealistically as the Tau but the 40K universe hammers home the concept of time corrupts. Now this doesn't make the Tau good, it means that they are a source of hope that will lead to disappointment as the storyline proceeds into the 41K and later battlefleet gothica enviroment.
This. Although I am inclined to argue that their was always some form of evidence hinting at an inner corruption from the Tau. As soon as the Farsight Enclaves were established that much was clear.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exor wrote:"The Dark Eldar are inured to terror and death, taking a positive delight in the infliction of pain and misery. Yet there is something that fills their race with an utter dread, driving them onto ever more despicable acts of wanton bloodshed and torture; the Great Enemy; the One Who Thirsts. What the relationship between the Great Enemy and the Dark Eldar is, it is impossible to say. Although the Dark Eldar revel in their own wickedness and evil, there is a desperation about them; an all-consuming horror that forces them to kill and maim ecah other, to fall upon their prey without mercy, as if their very survival depended upon the extremity of the grievous deeds they perform."
The Dark Eldar do what is necessary for them to survive. What they require and what say, the Tau require is completely different. Dark Eldar suffer from The Thirst, an all-consuming and ever-increasing need to drink the souls of other beings. They need to do this, otherwise they die, it's as simple as that. Would you not do whatever was necessary to survive? Does the wish to live really constitute evil?
While continuing the practice of torture and other such unpleasantries in order to stave off the thirst has become mandatory, it cannot be said that the Dark Eldar do not loathe their method of survival in the least. They seem to very much enjoy it. And remember, they were taking part in such practices with gusto before they were neccessary, before the Fall.
DrownedRat117 wrote: Tyranids are, by instinct, ferocious. Some may argue they are not evil, but... no. They have supposedly consumed galaxies, and the universe is better off without them.
I disagree with your logic that since the universe would be better off without them, then they are evil. They are just animals following their base instincts. In fact I contend that very few of the races are "EVIL" and even the "good" tau are evil.
Chaos SM - Butt-hurt about a supposed betrayal by the emperor they turn against him and needing help they turn to chaos & become corrupted. So I contend that at it's heart the chaos legions are not truly evil.
Chaos Daemons - Evil
Necrons - By virtue of the C'tan who programmed them are evil, the necrons themselves are not.
T'au - Forced sterilization of races that are deemed "undesirable" to the empire, along with a join-or-die ultimatum, they might be evil.
Imperium - Yes their methods are nasty but they are beset on all sides & internally by forces seeking to kill them & so it's not about good / bad it's all about survival.
Eldar - Highly manipulative & have willingly sacrificed whole human systems to spare a handful of eldar. To be fair they are dying out & are trying to hold on as long as they can, again survival =/= evil.
Dark Eldar - This is a tough one however (I forget where perhaps C: DE) it states that the dark eldar lust for souls seemed almost "desperate" - see the above poster he has the exerpt quoted. Slaanesh is slowly draining every one of their souls so here is your choice, torture and suck souls or spend an eternity writhing in torment yourself as some daemons play thing(and remember it's a slaaneshi daemon).
Orks - Supposedly created as warriors against the Necrontyr by the old ones. They were created to fight & fight they do just after millenia of unchecked developement they seem to have digressed into savages. Not evil just doing what their genetic code determines they do.
Tyranids - As stated they may be consuming vast ammounts of galaxies but how else could you fuel all those organisms, are you evil because you eat other living things? (plants animals fungi) They just happen to eat more.
Chaos SM - Butt-hurt about a supposed betrayal by the emperor they turn against him and needing help they turn to chaos & become corrupted. So I contend that at it's heart the chaos legions are not truly evil. Emperors Children Butt-rape, Death Guard spread disease and misery, World Eaters kill a lot and Thousand Sons read and play wit warpfire. Much of their torment and maltreatment of fellow humans is done simply out of spite. Not exactly goody-goodies.
Chaos Daemons - Evil Toughts of every other race, but twisted. Yeah, if there is evil, this is it.
Necrons - By virtue of the C'tan who programmed them are evil, the necrons themselves are not. Were vain and greedy enough to sign their entire race away to slavery just for a chance at immortality. Pretty evil.
T'au - Forced sterilization of races that are deemed "undesirable" to the empire, along with a join-or-die ultimatum, they might be evil. Might be
Imperium - Yes their methods are nasty but they are beset on all sides & internally by forces seeking to kill them & so it's not about good / bad it's all about survival. Practice xenophopia hunts, kill all heretical preachings. Ghandi and Mother Teresa would end up in Interrogation chambers. Only human, not humane.
Eldar - Highly manipulative & have willingly sacrificed whole human systems to spare a handful of eldar. To be fair they are dying out & are trying to hold on as long as they can, again survival =/= evil. Same xenophobia, closed ideals and all around dickery puts them level on evilness with Imperium.
Dark Eldar - This is a tough one however (I forget where perhaps C: DE) it states that the dark eldar lust for souls seemed almost "desperate" - see the above poster he has the exerpt quoted. Slaanesh is slowly draining every one of their souls so here is your choice, torture and suck souls or spend an eternity writhing in torment yourself as some daemons play thing(and remember it's a slaaneshi daemon). If I was told to either torture a puppy or have my soul sucked out I...well I don't know if I could do it. But I definitely wouldn't enjoy it.
Orks - Supposedly created as warriors against the Necrontyr by the old ones. They were created to fight & fight they do just after millenia of unchecked developement they seem to have digressed into savages. Not evil just doing what their genetic code determines they do. *shrug* I dunno. That whole slavery thing,
Tyranids - As stated they may be consuming vast ammounts of galaxies but how else could you fuel all those organisms, are you evil because you eat other living things? (plants animals fungi) They just happen to eat more. 3 people are sitting at a table with a freshly baked pie in the middle. 1 of them grabs the pie, gobbles it down, eats the table, and then chomps down the other 2 people. Evil? I dunno.
I think Good and Evil would be defined by intentions.
By that logic Tyranids and Orks are the least evil, since they don't really have evil intentions, they just kill people by instinct. Its what comes naturally to them.
Shas'O Dorian wrote:T'au - Forced sterilization of races that are deemed "undesirable" to the empire, along with a join-or-die ultimatum, they might be evil.
Can you please show me the page in the "Tau Empire" Codex, where this "forced sterilization" is mentioned? A precise quote would be best.
hey! nids just wanna recycle everything
(everything turns to biomass)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides tyranids are the only ''not racist'' force
imperium: kill the mutant burn the heretic purge the unclean
chaos: death to the false emperor!
necrons: all must die!
nids: im hungry
tau: you do not believe in the greater good eh? (pulse rifle in the head)
etc. etc. etc.
The case of evil versus good is so very subjective, but there are a few general truths. Killing someone you hold in good light is never viewed as preferable. Selfless sacrifices where it is not required (giving gifts of friendship, putting your life on the line, etc) can be universally viewed as a good act.
Then there's a horde of other acts which each individual culture will attribute good or evil values to. Certain ancient south American cultures would put ritual blood sacrifices up on the "good" side of the list, even if it happened to be your own son being sacrificed, for example.
This does invalidate the Orks or Tyranids as non-evil, I should add. It only puts the Tyranid down as "not intentionally evil, but still acting like an evil force" while the orks would more be described as "bloody stupid, but still evil" (they kill for fun). Still, it's entirely up for debate which is more evil, though; planet eating Tyranids or religiously indoctrinating fascist Empire?
Then you get the moral side of the scale, which is even harder to define. Let's not go there.
Regardless, I wouldn't say Eldar are in any way evil or of low morals, but I would agree that they come across as arrogant bastards since it's they who decide what is best for others. "You need to die in order to stave off a greater disaster. No you don't get a say in this. No, I don't feel like informing you in advance."
Also, Eldar don't always go on self-preservation path, there is also the tiny hints that the Eldar psychers foresee some horrible disaster if the Empire should fall, or if the Emperor can no longer keep faith - not at all dissimilar to how the Eldar nations fell.
The ultimate goal of the Eldar is the preservation of the universe as a diverse one, not something encased in Eldar Wraithbone. however, they also view every other race as tools to this end, preferable to be used to further these goals rather than Eldar lives.
I voted Eldar as the least evil. Arrogant bastards, but not evil.
Emperors Faithful wrote:It referred to in the DoW games. But if you don't want to consider that valid then that's okay.
To be precise, it is mentioned in a non-GW product, in a timeline that definitely doesn't happen in 40k, told by an Imperial storyteller, given as the third likeliest answer, why men and women who live separated from each other get less children than couples living together.
This is presented in every second Tau post as the ultimate proof that Tau are THE EVULLZZ.
And as you can imagine, most other "proofs" have a similar lack of foundation, so you never find people bothering to give an exact source, as they know quite well they are making things up.
I keep seeing this in this thread and I really don't understand it.
When we talk about humans killing all other races (even peaceful ones) is ok as it's selfdefence but when Tau offer peace then do the same if it's refused, they are called evil.
4M2A wrote:I keep seeing this in this thread and I really don't understand it.
When we talk about humans killing all other races (even peaceful ones) is ok as it's selfdefence but when Tau offer peace then do the same if it's refused, they are called evil.
The Imperium isn't on the offensive, they are on a defensive.
The great crusade was started to rebuild what was lost, therefore Humans fought to get their worlds back.
In this process, any opposing force was brought low, there you have the expansive part of humanitys history in 40k.
Nowadays ( M41) they just defend human worlds, they don't try to conquer non-human worlds but they still fight against any
possible threat to human worlds.
The T'au empire is on the offensive, they try to expand their influence and settle on other planets.
Thus, they try to conquer worlds of other races, not just such that pose a threat.
Should make a difference if you try to conquer someone elses home or if you defend your own house.
The imperium are constantly trying to take planets. When they ordered an attack on the Tau when they were still a young species there were no humans on the planet, they attacked purey because they hate all aliens.
If that was true the humans would only defend earth. All the planets they now live on, except terra, they took. Many belonged to either the Eldar, Orks or Crons but that didn't stop them.
If that argument is true the necrons are purely good as at one point they owned most of the galaxy, so they are just clearing their planets.
The humans believe they have a right to planets more than the the other races when they don't. This is just them believing they are superior, which just shows that they are evil.
4M2A wrote:The imperium are constantly trying to take planets.
Where?
Time of crusades is over. The IoM may claim ressources or attack aggressive neighbours (orks).
4M2A wrote: When they ordered an attack on the Tau when they were still a young species there were no humans on the planet, they attacked purey because they hate all aliens.
There was an explorator team and those decided the "animals" there wouldn't be worth diplomacy, a cleansing was ordered.
If that weren't delayed, there would be no Tau. But as GW invented Tau as new race, they got fluff-armor = warpstorm.
4M2A wrote:If that was true the humans would only defend earth. All the planets they now live on, except terra, they took. Many belonged to either the Eldar, Orks or Crons but that didn't stop them.
Mankind took those planets pre age of strife and orks/eldar or crons didn't exist on every single world.
The necrons had moved out to their Tomb worlds and eldar did no longer base their life on planets. Orks are just everywhere, so your argument would hand the galaxy to orks. And i may guess orks consider a world belong to the strongest, so they 'accept' when theyre beaten their superior as new owner.
Until they need a 'reason' to come back....
4M2A wrote:If that argument is true the necrons are purely good as at one point they owned most of the galaxy, so they are just clearing their planets.
Exactly. In the minds of the necrons and their C'tan Masters, this galaxy belongs to them and every creature there is just
a ressource to harvest.
4M2A wrote:The humans believe they have a right to planets more than the the other races when they don't. This is just them believing they are superior, which just shows that they are evil.
They are too superior to be evil.
And they got the right to claim the galaxy, as they defend it against the darkness of the servants of chaos, hungry nids, rising Ctan,
plundering ork hordes and many more threats.
Tau just sit on the sidelines and try to benefit from the hard work.
Lately, imperial forces had to save the Tau's asses vs nids and crons.....
4M2A wrote:I keep seeing this in this thread and I really don't understand it.
When we talk about humans killing all other races (even peaceful ones) is ok as it's selfdefence but when Tau offer peace then do the same if it's refused, they are called evil.
The Imperium isn't on the offensive, they are on a defensive.
The great crusade was started to rebuild what was lost, therefore Humans fought to get their worlds back.
In this process, any opposing force was brought low, there you have the expansive part of humanitys history in 40k.
Nowadays ( M41) they just defend human worlds, they don't try to conquer non-human worlds but they still fight against any
possible threat to human worlds.
The T'au empire is on the offensive, they try to expand their influence and settle on other planets.
Thus, they try to conquer worlds of other races, not just such that pose a threat.
Should make a difference if you try to conquer someone elses home or if you defend your own house.
So humans never sent a fleet to sterilise the Tau homeworld for colonisation?
Humans never launched the Damocles Crusade?
Interesting, I never knew that. It just shows what nonsense you pick up from reading Imperial history.
The Imperium do take planets, if they find one they want. Most of the battles are defending but thats because they own most of the planets they are capable of holding. An example of an attack is in the Imperial Guard codex it says
The Conquest of Atria IV
Thats not defence thats taking a planet.
The IoM may claim ressources or attack aggressive neighbours (orks).
Claiming resources that belong to someone else then taking them by force is just invasion. Equally the Dark Eldar could claim that it owns the human race therefore taking them is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, I am sure most people think the Dark eldar are evil.
There was an explorator team and those decided the "animals" there wouldn't be worth diplomacy, a cleansing was ordered.
If that weren't delayed, there would be no Tau. But as GW invented Tau as new race, they got fluff-armor = warpstorm.
This is another case of the imperium taking a planet for itself without caring about the previous inhabitants. The idea that something isn't worth talking to so we kill it, is a very selfish belief. Being selfish is usually considered a bad thing. I don't see how the informaion about the warp storm is relevant. There wouldn't be any races unless Gw said so.
Mankind took those planets pre age of strife and orks/eldar or crons didn't exist on every single world.
The necrons had moved out to their Tomb worlds and eldar did no longer base their life on planets. Orks are just everywhere, so your argument would hand the galaxy to orks.
And i may guess orks consider a world belong to the strongest, so they 'accept' when theyre beaten their superior as new owner.
Until they need a 'reason' to come back....
At the time the humans took the planets, eldar did live on planets, and orks infested many more planets. The idea that orks let them have the planets is not the case. Orks will only surrender to Orks. Otherwise they will fight until they have been wiped out.
Exactly. In the minds of the necrons and their C'tan Masters, this galaxy belongs to them and every creature there is just
a ressource to harvest.
Yet the C'tan are view as evil, and even the people who designed them say they are meant to be evil.
They are too superior to be evil.
And they got the right to claim the galaxy, as they defend it against the darkness of the servants of chaos, hungry nids, rising Ctan,
plundering ork hordes and many more threats.
Tau just sit on the sidelines and try to benefit from the hard work.
Lately, imperial forces had to save the Tau's asses vs nids and crons.....
The Tau want to defeat chaos, nids and crons as much as the imperium does. The only reason they do it less is that they are smaller so have less power. Saying they have the right to the galaxy because of this is just saying if your powerful your good, which is far from the truth. I'm also not sure how the Tau are just sitting around when they are having a much harder time taking planets that the imperium did. The IoM had huge armies and fought enemies that were fragmented and outnumbered. The Tau are fighting against a huge organisation which is well corordinated and much larger than the Tau empire.
4M2A wrote:The Imperium do take planets, if they find one they want. Most of the battles are defending but thats because they own most of the planets they are capable of holding. An example of an attack is in the Imperial Guard codex it says
The Conquest of Atria IV
Thats not defence thats taking a planet.
Too bad Atria IV was a bastion of chaos... So its not conquering a "free" world of a "free" race, but a attack at the archenemy.
4M2A wrote:Claiming resources that belong to someone else then taking them by force is just invasion. Equally the Dark Eldar could claim that it owns the human race therefore taking them is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, I am sure most people think the Dark eldar are evil.
Did you consider the POV? For the DE, its obviously their right to do as they please and all of us are possible slaves...
Maybe go find an example where the IoM didn't counterattack or fought against ork waaghs, nid fleets or dark crusades.
4M2A wrote:This is another case of the imperium taking a planet for itself without caring about the previous inhabitants. The idea that something isn't worth talking to so we kill it, is a very selfish belief. Being selfish is usually considered a bad thing.
Another case? Rather no case at all.
Did anyone say the IoM isn't bad? Is any race in 40k not focused on their own agenda? Selfish they are, bad they are......
4M2A wrote:At the time the humans took the planets, eldar did live on planets, and orks infested many more planets. The idea that orks let them have the planets is not the case. Orks will only surrender to Orks. Otherwise they will fight until they have been wiped out.
Eldar? the same that moved home to their craftworlds instead of planetbound life? Again, if orks or their spores make a world an ork planet, the whole galaxy belongs to them in this POV. Happy orks....
Humans know the danger of orks spreading freely and reduce them as long as they can before a waaagh becomes unstoppable. Would you prefer the IoM to let them prosper and walz over small empires like Tau?
Nids need to be intercepted, as unchecked fleets will grow and learn too much from their food. Remember the blurb where the Tau weren't able to outdo the nids in engeneering? ( nid codex IIRC ).
Chaos is the "natural enemy" and the IoM has to oppose it. No choice here.
4M2A wrote:The Tau want to defeat chaos, nids and crons as much as the imperium does. The only reason they do it less is that they are smaller so have less power. Saying they have the right to the galaxy because of this is just saying if your powerful your good, which is far from the truth. I'm also not sure how the Tau are just sitting around when they are having a much harder time taking planets that the imperium did. The IoM had huge armies and fought enemies that were fragmented and outnumbered. The Tau are fighting against a huge organisation which is well coordinated and much larger than the Tau empire.
Tau know nothing about chaos or nids or C'tan as their last bits of background in 5th ed codizes shows. And yes, I say who is good is considered by who has the power to write the books, as good isn't defined in 40k like it would be in a RPG. So were back to good/evil vs lack of such concept in 40k.
Its interesting when you give the IoM the advantage of outnumbering their fragmented foes, because its the opposite. The IoM is the one with overstretched lines and small empires like Tau benefit from this.
The point still is, Imperia will claim the right to rule by power. Examples are there and I doubt you need me to research them for you.
Kilkrazy wrote: So humans never sent a fleet to sterilise the Tau homeworld for colonisation? Humans never launched the Damocles Crusade?
Interesting, I never knew that. It just shows what nonsense you pick up from reading Imperial history.
So its nonsense if its Imperial? Wasn't aware how biased our Mod is.
I think the blurb of explorator fleets marking worlds for colonization mentioned cleansing or terraforming as option. Could be wrong.
But the Damocles crusade was a retaliation, as the Tau invaded imperial space and imperial worlds. Timeline does matter. See, your good guys try to conquer planets with populations of a different race. Are they evil now, too?
1hadhq we can't keep looking at what each race thinks about what they do as no one is going to do what they think isn't a reasonable action. Even the most evil people believe what they are doing is right even if it's just for their own benefit. The only way we can definately say one army is more evil that another is by judging their actions against our morals.
All I am pointing out is that people aren't comparing each group fairly.
Too bad Atria IV was a bastion of chaos... So its not conquering a "free" world of a "free" race, but a attack at the archenemy.
So the imperium can attack a planet that attacks them and replace chaos rule with better ruling (and kill anyone who disagrees) but Tau are doing exactly the same. Since the beginning of their species the imperium has tried to exterminate them. By taking imperial planets they improve the lives for citizens who accept it and improve the quality of life. The imperium is as dangerous to the Tau as chaos is to the imperium, if not more dangerous.
Eldar? the same that moved home to their craftworlds instead of planetbound life?
At the time humans spread across the galaxy the eldar owned most of the planets. They only gave up life on planets to save their species.
Again, if orks or their spores make a world an ork planet, the whole galaxy belongs to them in this POV.
Happy orks....
I don't agree that orks own most of the galaxy, but the point I mentioned is very similar to you saying that humans did.
Tau know nothing about chaos or nids or C'tan as their last bits of background in 5th ed codizes shows.
I don't know where you are getting this from but it's entirely false. They have fought Chaos, Nids and crons before. With the most open view of science they will have a great deal of knoledge on the tyranids. In battle they have some of the best antityranid tactics (rapidly changing battle styles) which if copied by the imperium would serious damage the tyranids.
They know as much about necrons as the imperium do. The imperium have very little idea what the C'tan are they did not exist when the C'tan were active. All they know is taken from information stolen from the eldar. The imperium would never trust this so the little they do know has little affect on them.
I am pretty sure fighting Daemons and CSM and watching the Eldar psychic powers would give you a good idea of what chaos can do. With all the chaos cults floating around and openly chaos planets it isn't hard to investigate what chaos is and what it is. Sure they can't use psychic powers but that isn't all chaos is.
Its interesting when you give the IoM the advantage of outnumbering their fragmented foes, because its the opposite.
The IoM is the one with overstretched lines and small empires like Tau benefit from this.
Whether we see this on the tabletop or not most of the imperiums battles have been in the past and still are against orks or chaos cults. Most of which are badly supplied and with little coordination. Tau spend most of their time fighting imperial forces which are well supplied and work together. Tau have a smaller area to protect but have far less resources.
The point still is, Imperia will claim the right to rule by power. Examples are there and I doubt you need me to research them for you.
What they claim is irrelevant, whether they can take it or not. We are discussing who is right and power does not equal right.
So its nonsense if its Imperial? Wasn't aware how biased our Mod is
Almost all imperial information is biased in someway. All the armies are biased but as we get most stories from imperial POV so we only see how the imperium potrays it. GW have even said that a lot of what happens is properganda but people insist it is 100% true.
1hadhq wrote:Should make a difference if you try to conquer someone elses home or if you defend your own house.
The Imperium is inspired by the regimes of Hitler and Stalin. Hitler and Stalin conquered and oppressed many countries, including their own countries. Let me assure you that many many people were glad, when the Allies "conquered someone else's homes" and freed them from oppression.
The Great Crusade was a huge war to conquer and rule as many planets as they could get. The Imperium is a very oppressive regime. Official background (including the novel "For the Emperor" and "IA3:Taros Campaign") show many human planets that try to escape that oppression and occupation by joining the Tau Empire that stands for freedom, trade and mutual protection, as the Tau are not interested in subjugating other races (even if they wanted, they couldn't due to low numbers).
BTW if a Tau general makes the mistake to actually massacre cruel and unforgiving enemies like the Orks (Farsight, Brightsword), he is either sacked immediately or totally expelled from the Tau Empire. Unfortunately this fact is too well known to be ignored by Tau haters.
4M2A wrote:1hadhq we can't keep looking at what each race thinks about what they do as no one is going to do what they think isn't a reasonable action. Even the most evil people believe what they are doing is right even if it's just for their own benefit. The only way we can definately say one army is more evil that another is by judging their actions against our morals.
All I am pointing out is that people aren't comparing each group fairly.
How are they compared fairly?
From their own POV?
And our morals aren't the same. You assume they are, but this little planet has enough diversity to allow for morals you would not agree with, but these were actual once or are still in use. There are humans accepting a law from a central authority and there are humans accepting only the laws of their own local authorities. Now tell me, will you claim that those sharing your view on morals are correct or do you accept your morals as actual moral of your location, but maybe not used before or afterwards.
- slavery was legal once in the US.
- A religious crusade was considered "good" a few centurys ago.
- plunder and pillage was common income of the mercenary armies and part of their contracts.
Seeing these changes over time, how do you judge in a sf setup of 40.000 years?
Does only M41 count? or M30 ?
Our Good/evil is ours and ours alone. Good /evil in 40k needs a 40k definition. GW didn't go there so why should we?
4M2A wrote:So the imperium can attack a planet that attacks them and replace chaos rule with better ruling (and kill anyone who disagrees) but Tau are doing exactly the same. Since the beginning of their species the imperium has tried to exterminate them. By taking imperial planets they improve the lives for citizens who accept it and improve the quality of life. The imperium is as dangerous to the Tau as chaos is to the imperium, if not more dangerous.
The taint of chaos has to be dealt with, maybe "ruinous powers" should hint on ruin?
No, the Tau do not improve the lives of anyone except their own.
Comparing the IoM to chaos is silly. Chaos is somehow an "inner" enemy, the IoM isn't ruining the greatar good with corruption.
The IoM did react to the expansion of Tau, chaos did react to its possible downfall.
So lets see. Chaos wants mankind as slaves and "food", the IoM has no interest in living Tau.
IoM=ressource to chaos
Tau=annoying but unimportant
Sounds not like the Tau are in danger at the same level as the IoM is.
4M2A wrote:At the time humans spread across the galaxy the eldar owned most of the planets. They only gave up life on planets to save their species.
And the IoM reconquered the lost worlds of the first colonization of the stars. So pre age of strife worlds could be human worlds,and not eldar worlds. Maybe consider the home of the eldar, now eye of terror, as lost to them and the rule of the eldar of the galaxy
wasn't that complete as you make it.
4M2A wrote:I don't know where you are getting this from but it's entirely false. They have fought Chaos, Nids and crons before. With the most open view of science they will have a great deal of knoledge on the tyranids. In battle they have some of the best antityranid tactics (rapidly changing battle styles) which if copied by the imperium would serious damage the tyranids.
They know as much about necrons as the imperium do. The imperium have very little idea what the C'tan are they did not exist when the C'tan were active. All they know is taken from information stolen from the eldar. The imperium would never trust this so the little they do know has little affect on them.
I am pretty sure fighting Daemons and CSM and watching the Eldar psychic powers would give you a good idea of what chaos can do. With all the chaos cults floating around and openly chaos planets it isn't hard to investigate what chaos is and what it is. Sure they can't use psychic powers but that isn't all chaos is.
Its not false. Its part of the background of new codices, like SM, IG , SW , nids, BA,.. could name a few but IIRc the Tau didn't fight nids or necrons in their own codices so we may need to look at someone elses. Would like to quote , but sadly I dont have them all
in english, so you may get disappointed with my quotes. Believe me or not, Tau get mentioned in codices of other races.
Tau do not so well against some opponents, GW used other armies to save them or spare them to get killed later.
Seriously. The IoM protects little empires with its pure mass and annihilates most greater dangers like nid fleets and waaghs.
To say the IoM knows as much as tau do is overestimating the Tau's knowledge x100.
The IoM was able to dig out and identify necrons, they do not attempt to meet and greet like Tau do ( and get desintegrated with gauss rifles as answer ) and they even have a rumored Ctan at home.
4M2A wrote:What they claim is irrelevant, whether they can take it or not. We are discussing who is right and power does not equal right.
Guns equal power and big guns make more right than small ones.
4M2A wrote:Almost all imperial information is biased in someway. All the armies are biased but as we get most stories from imperial POV so we only see how the imperium potrays it. GW have even said that a lot of what happens is properganda but people insist it is 100% true.
So we discard everything as it is imperial propaganda? Funny, now without anything to base a debate on, how do we run these threads
yet? One person decides if its un-imperial enough or doesnt contradict his personal take on it?
Sorry, its all or nothing.
And the fact of imperial POV doesn't makes it wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote:
The Imperium is inspired by the regimes of Hitler and Stalin. Hitler and Stalin conquered and oppressed many countries, including their own countries. Let me assure you that many many people were glad, when the Allies "conquered someone else's homes" and freed them from oppression.
Heard about real world vs SF universe?
NO?
Kroothawk wrote:
The Great Crusade was a huge war to conquer and rule as many planets as they could get. The Imperium is a very oppressive regime. Official background (including the novel "For the Emperor" and "IA3:Taros Campaign") show many human planets that try to escape that oppression and occupation by joining the Tau Empire that stands for freedom, trade and mutual protection, as the Tau are not interested in subjugating other races (even if they wanted, they couldn't due to low numbers).
BTW if a Tau general makes the mistake to actually massacre cruel and unforgiving enemies like the Orks (Farsight, Brightsword), he is either sacked immediately or totally expelled from the Tau Empire. Unfortunately this fact is too well known to be ignored by Tau haters.
Where do you get this questionable impression from?
I do appreciate if one supports his favoured faction, but your going to far.
Farsight has left on its own, as hes not blind as the others. Brightsword masscred humans, and may suffered a warning but that all.
You can go on with this mutual protection thing, but still worlds leaving the IoM tend to be inhabitable soon. Freedom of death....
1hadhq wrote:Should make a difference if you try to conquer someone elses home or if you defend your own house.
The Imperium is inspired by the regimes of Hitler and Stalin. Hitler and Stalin conquered and oppressed many countries, including their own countries. Let me assure you that many many people were glad, when the Allies "conquered someone else's homes" and freed them from oppression.
I'm not quite understanding the reference to Stalin there. Are you saying that Stalin/Hitler represent the Imperium, while the Tau represent the Allies? If so then I'm going to have to call bullgak on your history skills. Stalin was an Ally himself, and was instrumental in ending Hitlers democratic regime (Hitler was elected democratically). Staling himself didn't really conquer and oppress many countires before or after WWII. Just his own. And even then it is argueable that he turned the backwater laughing stock that was called Russia into a world power all by itself. The history surrounding him and his methods really is quite interesting.
The Great Crusade was a huge war to conquer and rule as many planets as they could get. The Imperium is a very oppressive regime. Official background (including the novel "For the Emperor" and "IA3:Taros Campaign") show many human planets that try to escape that oppression and occupation by joining the Tau Empire that stands for freedom, trade and mutual protection, as the Tau are not interested in subjugating other races (even if they wanted, they couldn't due to low numbers).
1) The Great Crusade was a 'reclamation' to free and unite humanity (which had been scattered across the stars) into a single working empire. This included freeing human races from manipulaive masters similar to Tau and other coalitions. Tomb Worlds and Eldar Maiden worlds were colonised becuase humanity honestly didn't know about the nature of these planets or thier importance to other races. It can hardly be called an unprovoked attack.
2) After the Horus Heresy (an serious betrayal/attack by Chaos) things went downhill really fast for the Imperium. With the Emperor incapacitated or whatever you'd like to call it things went astray. Some places got it right, like Ultramar, and became perfect examples of a 'good sector'. But elsewhere the Imperium really had to struggle just to keep a hold on the vast gain that they had made, this included Xenophobic progroms and the like which all around made these worlds a rather gakky place to live. Small wonder that worlds on the edge seek to escape it, but the Imperium can't afford it.
BTW if a Tau general makes the mistake to actually massacre cruel and unforgiving enemies like the Orks (Farsight, Brightsword), he is either sacked immediately or totally expelled from the Tau Empire. Unfortunately this fact is too well known to be ignored by Tau haters.
Seriously, this is not at all how it happened and is ridiculous fanwank to suggest as much. After the massacre of the orks Farsight was sent of missions that distanced himself from the central Tau worlds. The Tau Empire wasn't too keen to get rid of him. It was only after the accompaning Ethereal died during a mission on some sort of ghost planet that Farsight ceased communications with the Tau Empire. After a while reports trickle back on the Farsight Enclaves. It does not seem that Farsight was exiled, but left on his own accord.
But Farsight, possibly the (second) greatest Tau general ever to live, wasn't exiled for brutality against the orks. There is little to no evidence to support that.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm not quite understanding the reference to Stalin there. Are you saying that Stalin/Hitler represent the Imperium, while the Tau represent the Allies? If so then I'm going to have to call bullgak on your history skills. Stalin was an Ally himself, and was instrumental in ending Hitlers democratic regime (Hitler was elected democratically). Staling himself didn't really conquer and oppress many countires before or after WWII. Just his own. And even then it is argueable that he turned the backwater laughing stock that was called Russia into a world power all by itself. The history surrounding him and his methods really is quite interesting.
1.) The main inspiration for the Imperium are Hitler, Stalin and the Inquisition. The Emperor wasn't elected, Inquisition and Commissars (word and function directly taken from Red army) keep a tight reign over army resp. the population.
2.) When I talked about allies, I meant the Western Allies, as half the conquests by Stalin were done during the famous Hitler/Stalin pact. Stalin did indeed oppress his own country (millions ! of dead) and the ones he conquered and regrouped either as the Soviet Union or the Red Block. Google the history of the Baltics, the Hungary and GDR uprisings, the German Wall etc. Whatever Stalin has done, nobody questions AFAIK that he was a dictator.
3.) Same with Hitler. In one election he was elected Chancler within a coalition, his party never won the majority of all votes in free elections BTW. But once elected, he transformed the shaky democracy into a pure dictatorship (1933, "Machtergreifung").
4.) The ally remark was meant to show, that sometimes, reconquering occupied countries is welcome by the population. And several Imperial planets are known to defect the Imperium voluntarily to get rid of the oppression.
Emperors Faithful wrote:1) The Great Crusade was a 'reclamation' to free and unite humanity (which had been scattered across the stars) into a single working empire. This included freeing human races from manipulaive masters similar to Tau and other coalitions. Tomb Worlds and Eldar Maiden worlds were colonised becuase humanity honestly didn't know about the nature of these planets or thier importance to other races. It can hardly be called an unprovoked attack.
2) After the Horus Heresy (an serious betrayal/attack by Chaos) things went downhill really fast for the Imperium. With the Emperor incapacitated or whatever you'd like to call it things went astray. Some places got it right, like Ultramar, and became perfect examples of a 'good sector'. But elsewhere the Imperium really had to struggle just to keep a hold on the vast gain that they had made, this included Xenophobic progroms and the like which all around made these worlds a rather gakky place to live. Small wonder that worlds on the edge seek to escape it, but the Imperium can't afford it.
Just read the first Horus Heresy novels about the Crusade. It was not exactly a happy family reunion.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm not quite understanding the reference to Stalin there. Are you saying that Stalin/Hitler represent the Imperium, while the Tau represent the Allies? If so then I'm going to have to call bullgak on your history skills. Stalin was an Ally himself, and was instrumental in ending Hitlers democratic regime (Hitler was elected democratically). Staling himself didn't really conquer and oppress many countires before or after WWII. Just his own. And even then it is argueable that he turned the backwater laughing stock that was called Russia into a world power all by itself. The history surrounding him and his methods really is quite interesting.
1.) The main inspiration for the Imperium are Hitler, Stalin and the Inquisition. The Emperor wasn't elected, Inquisition and Commissars (word and function directly taken from Red army) keep a tight reign over army resp. the population.
2.) When I talked about allies, I meant the Western Allies, as half the conquests by Stalin were done during the famous Hitler/Stalin pact. Stalin did indeed oppress his own country (millions ! of dead) and the ones he conquered and regrouped either as the Soviet Union or the Red Block. Google the history of the Baltics, the Hungary and GDR uprisings, the German Wall etc. Whatever Stalin has done, nobody questions AFAIK that he was a dictator.
3.) Same with Hitler. In one election he was elected Chancler within a coalition, his party never won the majority of all votes in free elections BTW. But once elected, he transformed the shaky democracy into a pure dictatorship (1933, "Machtergreifung").
4.) The ally remark was meant to show, that sometimes, reconquering occupied countries is welcome by the population. And several Imperial planets are known to defect the Imperium voluntarily to get rid of the oppression.
1) Yes, and?
2) You compared the Tau to the allies. Not exactly accurate. BTW, if calling the Eastern Block a Soviet 'conquest' is correct, then the same must be said of the western countries under NATO. Issue's regarding the Cold War are not black and white, and neither is anything regarding the Tau v Imperium. That said, it's ridiculous to try and compare the two scenarios.
3) I never said Hitler didn't create a dictatorship. Where are you going with this? I am honestly confused.
4) Soviet people initially welcomed Nazi liberators on the Russian front, before the SS went around burning villages down. They then celebrated the return of their Soviets at the end of the war. Some world welcome Tau intervention, others don't. Thing change. People are fickle.
Just read the first Horus Heresy novels about the Crusade. It was not exactly a happy family reunion.
No thanks. I'd rather choke on a book written by C.S. Goto. (I personally hate the Horus Heresy books as they destroy much of the mystery surrounding the Horus Heresy in regards to 40k fluff. That and the whole Fulgrim killing the Avatar thing. The articles on it by White Dwarf were always much cooler.) Did you really think the Great Crusade was going to be won by this chick?
The Emperor saw it wise to take a more direct approach.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Stalin was an Ally himself, and was instrumental in ending Hitlers democratic regime (Hitler was elected democratically).
Emperors Faithful wrote:3) I never said Hitler didn't create a dictatorship. Where are you going with this? I am honestly confused.
Hitler ended Hitler's pseudo-democratic regime (which lasted a few days). Stalin helped ending Hitler's dictatorial regime.
At least we agree on the quality of Goto's books.
And good news for you: The author who let Fulgrim choke a non-breathing Avatar to death, now wrote a Tau/Kroot bashing Ultramarine novel ("Courage and Honour"), contradicting all Tau and Kroot background, even his own background text on Kroot!
I sadly have to read it soon, to know where the next wave of Tau/Kroot hate comes from
BTW would you think that this half-naked unarmoured man could topple an Empire? Well he did!
And our morals aren't the same. You assume they are, but this little planet has enough diversity to allow for morals you would not agree with, but these were actual once or are still in use. There are humans accepting a law from a central authority and there are humans accepting only the laws of their own local authorities. Now tell me, will you claim that those sharing your view on morals are correct or do you accept your morals as actual moral of your location, but maybe not used before or afterwards.
- slavery was legal once in the US.
- A religious crusade was considered "good" a few centurys ago.
- plunder and pillage was common income of the mercenary armies and part of their contracts.
Seeing these changes over time, how do you judge in a sf setup of 40.000 years?
Does only M41 count? or M30 ?
Our Good/evil is ours and ours alone. Good /evil in 40k needs a 40k definition. GW didn't go there so why should we?
My suggestion about comparing them by our morals was a way of viewing them fairly. Many of your points about th imperium are from a current view on what is right, yet you say this is wrong. Comparing them by the morals used in 40k doesn't work because who evers morals we use are always going to be right. The only way to get an unbiased decicisin is to use outside morals.
Now tell me, will you claim that those sharing your view on morals are correct or do you accept your morals as actual moral of your location, but maybe not used before or afterwards.
I strongly agree with the idea of this statement but it doesn't work in reality. From what you said slavery was right in the past but wrong now. To judge any action we must find a set of what we consider is right. This is very similar to todays morals. If we could judge actions by any ages morals, we could justify anything which is wrong.
Does only M41 count? or M30 ?
Why is it when using 40k morals you only look at the imperiums morals? I could justify everything the Tau do by using their morals but I don't. I know they could do it better, but their current method is the better than the other races.
Our Good/evil is ours and ours alone. Good /evil in 40k needs a 40k definition. GW didn't go there so why should we?
Judging by the title of this thread it's about finding out who is believed to be the most good force. That means we do have to go their. Plus GW have talked about good and bad in the 40k universe. They have openly said Tau are meant to be the "good" race.
The taint of chaos has to be dealt with, maybe "ruinous powers" should hint on ruin?
No, the Tau do not improve the lives of anyone except their own.
Comparing the IoM to chaos is silly. Chaos is somehow an "inner" enemy, the IoM isn't ruining the greatar good with corruption.
The IoM did react to the expansion of Tau, chaos did react to its possible downfall.
So lets see. Chaos wants mankind as slaves and "food", the IoM has no interest in living Tau.
IoM=ressource to chaos
Tau=annoying but unimportant
Sounds not like the Tau are in danger at the same level as the IoM is.
I am not saying chaos is a bigger threat to tau. I am saying that the imperium is as bigger threat to Tau, than chaos is to the imperium. Chaos wants to corrupt the human race, but not destroy it. The imperium wants to destroy the tau empire, and exterminate all tau. Being called ruinous powers doesn't make any difference. Somethings name realy has no effect on how good or bad it is. No the imperium isn't ruining the greater good with corruption, instead it attacking it purely because of different beliefs.
Chaos just wants humans to worship it, the imperium want to kill the entire tau species. To me extinction is worse than having to worship something.
And the IoM reconquered the lost worlds of the first colonization of the stars. So pre age of strife worlds could be human worlds,and not eldar worlds. Maybe consider the home of the eldar, now eye of terror, as lost to them and the rule of the eldar of the galaxy
wasn't that complete as you make it.
When the humans spread across the galaxy the eldar were the dominant species and the fall hadn't occured yet. They controlled most of the galaxy and the eye of terror didn't even exist yet. The EoT was only created at the same time the Emperor began the crusades.
Its not false. Its part of the background of new codices, like SM, IG , SW , nids, BA,.. could name a few but IIRc the Tau didn't fight nids or necrons in their own codices so we may need to look at someone elses. Would like to quote , but sadly I dont have them all
in english, so you may get disappointed with my quotes. Believe me or not, Tau get mentioned in codices of other races.
Tau do not so well against some opponents, GW used other armies to save them or spare them to get killed later.
Tau fight nids- Codex: Tyranids
Tau discover necrons- Codex: Blood angels
I don't know of any specific quotes of Tau having contact with CSM or daemons, but it is very unlikely they haven't fought them. There was at one point a Tau investigation into the warp and chaos and at the end the Ethereals decided it was not worth continuing. I don't know the soure but this shows tehy do know what it is. How much detail is unknown but they do know chaos is bad.
Seriously. The IoM protects little empires with its pure mass and annihilates most greater dangers like nid fleets and waaghs.
To say the IoM knows as much as tau do is overestimating the Tau's knowledge x100.
The IoM was able to dig out and identify necrons, they do not attempt to meet and greet like Tau do ( and get desintegrated with gauss rifles as answer ) and they even have a rumored Ctan at home.
Just by looking at the way the Tau view science any knowlege about other races is actually going to be of some use to the Tau, whereas the imperium don't use it much. It takes the imperium hundreds of years to change anything, whereas the Tau actually adapt. They understand what they know whereas the imperium just know it. You can see from the way the imperium fight tyranids. They try to use wars of attrition against the second largest force in the galaxy, and one that recovers all loses from both sides. That doesn't seem like a good use of knowlege to me.
Guns equal power and big guns make more right than small ones.
Yes guns equal power but power does not equal right. There are many cases in history when bad organisations have had a lot of power. That doesn't make them any less evil.
So we discard everything as it is imperial propaganda? Funny, now without anything to base a debate on, how do we run these threads
yet? One person decides if its un-imperial enough or doesnt contradict his personal take on it?
Sorry, its all or nothing.
And the fact of imperial POV doesn't makes it wrong.
Only suggesting we look at how reliable sources are and take them with a pinch of salt. Funny how everyone claims Tau are so biased and ignore our fluff when the imperium is equally if not more biased yet people forget that.
You can go on with this mutual protection thing, but still worlds leaving the IoM tend to be inhabitable soon. Freedom of death....
No a lot of human worlds have become part of the Tau empire and have had no problems. They often have a better standard of life. Aside from orks there aren't quotes of Tau massacaring any populations, without good reason (they have killed human opulations but only as the human citizens have attacked Tau citizens).
1) The Great Crusade was a 'reclamation' to free and unite humanity (which had been scattered across the stars) into a single working empire. This included freeing human races from manipulaive masters similar to Tau and other coalitions. Tomb Worlds and Eldar Maiden worlds were colonised becuase humanity honestly didn't know about the nature of these planets or thier importance to other races. It can hardly be called an unprovoked attack.
Reclamation sounds nice until you find out they killed any humans who disagreeded with them. Many places were much better off before the imperium found them. If the imperium only protected planet who needed it they would be the good guys, but instead they claim ownership of all humans. I am certain the Interex were far better of with the imperium but if the imoperium couldn't have them they changed from being all nice and friendly to wiping them out.
4M2A wrote:
My suggestion about comparing them by our morals was a way of viewing them fairly. Many of your points about th imperium are from a current view on what is right, yet you say this is wrong. Comparing them by the morals used in 40k doesn't work because who evers morals we use are always going to be right. The only way to get an unbiased decicisin is to use outside morals.
Ok lets go with that.
4M2A wrote:I strongly agree with the idea of this statement but it doesn't work in reality. From what you said slavery was right in the past but wrong now. To judge any action we must find a set of what we consider is right. This is very similar to todays morals. If we could judge actions by any ages morals, we could justify anything which is wrong.
Are you sure your morals and mine are the same?
If not, we may sort those races differently....
So maybe assume we both are part of a western civilization have enough in common to run on the same Morals.
Yes, we can put these races into drawers, like good - evil - neutral?. Now we have them sorted, do you think the ally chart of campaigns hints on who is who?
4M2A wrote:Why is it when using 40k morals you only look at the imperiums morals? I could justify everything the Tau do by using their morals but I don't. I know they could do it better, but their current method is the better than the other races.
...because I am a stubborn Imperialist? And a human so I may understand the motives of them better then alienated motives of
fictional xenos. So why do you know they could do it better?
4M2A wrote:Judging by the title of this thread it's about finding out who is believed to be the most good force. That means we do have to go their. Plus GW have talked about good and bad in the 40k universe. They have openly said Tau are meant to be the "good" race.
Yes, Tau do well in a race, not sure if they're good at it but still not bad. See what I did there? Now its Good/bad .....
Back to Good vs evil.
I think the point of tabletop wargames less thriving on good vs evil than RPG's isn't that black&white isn't there, its more like shades of grey as the point in wargames as alliances may change. I know thats against jervis beloved cinematics and I will suffer from this...
IMHO, the title is incorrect as it pretends to have the answer. And I strongly doubt the "only good = greater good" as this would
make almost everyone evil and the chances of survival of a minor 'good' race against the whole galaxy are nil.
Thats why I favor the poll, "least evil" instead of "only good" as this allows variety and isn't so deadly set on black&white.
4M2A wrote:
I am not saying chaos is a bigger threat to tau. I am saying that the imperium is as bigger threat to Tau, than chaos is to the imperium. Chaos wants to corrupt the human race, but not destroy it. The imperium wants to destroy the tau empire, and exterminate all tau. Being called ruinous powers doesn't make any difference. Somethings name realy has no effect on how good or bad it is. No the imperium isn't ruining the greater good with corruption, instead it attacking it purely because of different beliefs.
Chaos just wants humans to worship it, the imperium want to kill the entire tau species. To me extinction is worse than having to worship something.
Tau suffered from Fabius biles attention and were happy to die. Maybe a fast death is prefferable to eternal torture...
Is it more evil to give false hope and still aim just for your personal entertainment and treat the victim as bad as possible without killing it? or is it more evil to be honest and just kill the victim?
Easy to point a finger at .....
4M2A wrote:
Tau fight nids- Codex: Tyranids
Tau discover necrons- Codex: Blood angels
I don't know of any specific quotes of Tau having contact with CSM or daemons, but it is very unlikely they haven't fought them. There was at one point a Tau investigation into the warp and chaos and at the end the Ethereals decided it was not worth continuing. I don't know the source but this shows they do know what it is. How much detail is unknown but they do know chaos is bad.
IIRC, there is only 1 fight against chaos.
And as the etherals discontinued investigation, they still don't know. They assume its not that threathening to them, but this must not be true for any of their allies as well.
To know it is bad, and to know it can change worlds from inhabitable to hell-holes in the warp...
4M2A wrote:Just by looking at the way the Tau view science any knowlege about other races is actually going to be of some use to the Tau, whereas the imperium don't use it much. It takes the imperium hundreds of years to change anything, whereas the Tau actually adapt. They understand what they know whereas the imperium just know it. You can see from the way the imperium fight tyranids. They try to use wars of attrition against the second largest force in the galaxy, and one that recovers all loses from both sides. That doesn't seem like a good use of knowlege to me.
The IoM thrives on faith, not knowledge.
Mankind believed in tech and got the age of strife as reward.
Rememeber Tau couldn't adapt faster than nids. Focus on tech isn't pure win.
Its nice for the models, but GW cannot afford to have Tau as supertech and the rest as stoneage. There will be restrictions we don't now of yet.
The IoM can afford daily losses, which may annihilate whole xeno empires in hours. Now imagine the IoM with research and a
open minded approach to tech....scary isn't it? As, you get opponents with high-tech, outnumbering you thousandfold.
4M2A wrote:Yes guns equal power but power does not equal right. There are many cases in history when bad organisations have had a lot of power. That doesn't make them any less evil.
Ok
4M2A wrote:Only suggesting we look at how reliable sources are and take them with a pinch of salt. Funny how everyone claims Tau are so biased and ignore our fluff when the imperium is equally if not more biased yet people forget that.
No, they know the imperium is always right and never runs out of salt.
I did not ignore the fluff, if its available and quoted.
But I do apply more weight to a codex than some notes, so what we may buy at the end of the day is what counts.
Plus, it works both ways, discard fluff if its biased towards the IoM and I shall claim the fluff biased against the IoM as equal invalid.
4M2A wrote:No a lot of human worlds have become part of the Tau empire and have had no problems. They often have a better standard of life. Aside from orks there aren't quotes of Tau massacaring any populations, without good reason (they have killed human opulations but only as the human citizens have attacked Tau citizens).
With good reason were back to justifing and thus were back to imperial reason is as good for imperial use as Tau reason is for Tau use.
I for one wouldn't judge the Tau as Good until their etherals "puppetmasters" and motives are revealed.
Wait, can someone explain the War of the Dakka in the Ork codex then? When does that happen? Farsight lost the fight they talked about there, so I wondered when he actually won.
Of course it could be fluff bias, where the winner depends on the codex you read it in.
Wait, can someone explain the War of the Dakka in the Ork codex then? When does that happen? Farsight lost the fight they talked about there, so I wondered when he actually won.
Overall farsight won. I am not sure about exactly how it ended but the orks suffered huge casulties from his attacks.
because I am a stubborn Imperialist? And a human so I may understand the motives of them better then alienated motives of fictional xenos. So why do you know they could do it better?
Supprisingly I had guessed that They are also a fiction human organisation so I don't think they are entirely that easy to connect with. Personaly from what I can see from the official and confirmed as well as Gw comments on the subject of Tau, I would prefer to live in the Tau empire than the imperium. The idea of a restricting government which has no intrest in any individual and that supresses anything threatening by destroying everything in the area regardless of casulties is more alien to me that the Tau empires view. Attempting to unite the galaxy with minimum casulties and improving the lives of your people is much closer to what I can understand.
Rememeber Tau couldn't adapt faster than nids. Focus on tech isn't pure win.
Its nice for the models, but GW cannot afford to have Tau as supertech and the rest as stoneage. There will be restrictions we don't now of yet.
Actually their ability to adapt worked better than most anti tyranid tactics, they failed because they just couldn't commit a large enought force to the fight. If the imperium had used the same tactic the nids would be running.
The IoM can afford daily losses, which may annihilate whole xeno empires in hours. Now imagine the IoM with research and a
open minded approach to tech....scary isn't it? As, you get opponents with high-tech, outnumbering you thousandfold.
We are looking at this purely from a fluff perspective. This is exactly what the imperium wants, but their traditions and faith prevent them from flourishing, something the Tau suffer from. If the imperium copied the Tau they would be able to defeat a lot of the armies in a very short period of time.
With good reason were back to justifing and thus were back to imperial reason is as good for imperial use as Tau reason is for Tau use.
I don't get what your saying here. People join the greater good by choice but many only join the imprium because it's that or die.
I for one wouldn't judge the Tau as Good until their etherals "puppetmasters" and motives are revealed.
The ethereals don't really control the Tau that much. They have the ability to but most of the time it isn't needed. The Tau have seen what happens when their species doesn't cooperate and are terrified of returning to that. The Greater good is quite transparent, they want to reduce suffering. The reason they are willing to fight for it is due to aiming for the long run rather than expecting it to work straight away. If the Ethereals wanted to trick them they wouldn't take in other races. Every time a race joins the greater good, the ethereasl become less in control as they can only control tau, so more of the empire become uncontrollable.
If you hate the ethereals what do you think about farsight? He has an empire fighting for the greater good but without ethereals.
Tau suffered from Fabius biles attention and were happy to die. Maybe a fast death is prefferable to eternal torture...
Is it more evil to give false hope and still aim just for your personal entertainment and treat the victim as bad as possible without killing it? or is it more evil to be honest and just kill the victim?
Easy to point a finger at .....
True but it is least evil to try and work together first. The chaos are a threat to the IoM and the IoM is a threat to the greater good. If the IoM can attack chaos the Tau can attack the IoM.
And as the etherals discontinued investigation, they still don't know. They assume its not that threathening to them, but this must not be true for any of their allies as well.
I got the impression they learned a lot from that investigation and ended as they knew the warp is something you want to leave alone.
I think the point of tabletop wargames less thriving on good vs evil than RPG's isn't that black&white isn't there, its more like shades of grey as the point in wargames as alliances may change. I know thats against jervis beloved cinematics and I will suffer from this...
This is true and the imperium is obviously one of the lighter shades of grey but when the people who designed Tau said they are meant to be the most good force, I think they are right. Of all people the designers know most about 40k.
IMHO, the title is incorrect as it pretends to have the answer. And I strongly doubt the "only good = greater good" as this would make almost everyone evil and the chances of survival of a minor 'good' race against the whole galaxy are nil.
I think that the title is only there as a suggestion and to attract people. A good race could easily survive in 40k as the evil forces are no united so just as likely to destroy each other as help them.
I agree life imprisonment isn't evil for a criminal however take not that these are not criminals but POWs. Very much normal soldier guys. Also note that this is not imprisonment in a prison where you live out your life in peace. It is hard labour in a mine for the Tau's War effort. These people will be worked to death perhaps not as brutally as Orks or even Imperial prisoners which can only take a matter of weeks or months but it is a grim fate indeed for a man whose only crime is being conscripted into the army.
Kroothawk wrote:
Hitler ended Hitler's pseudo-democratic regime (which lasted a few days). Stalin helped ending Hitler's dictatorial regime.
This is basic history. And has nothing to do with the Tau or Imperium. Please stop trying to make this comparison.
BTW would you think that this half-naked unarmoured man could topple an Empire? Well he did!
Actually, it was the culmination of two World Wars that left Britain too weak to keep a strong hold on the Indian Mainland. Ghandi's involvement is...well he spent a lot of time in prison and not eating. He was a wonderful and idealistic, moral person, but saying he toppled an empire is just dumb.
4M2A wrote:
Reclamation sounds nice until you find out they killed any humans who disagreeded with them. Many places were much better off before the imperium found them. If the imperium only protected planet who needed it they would be the good guys, but instead they claim ownership of all humans. I am certain the Interex were far better of with the imperium but if the imoperium couldn't have them they changed from being all nice and friendly to wiping them out.
I agree life imprisonment isn't evil for a criminal however take not that these are not criminals but POWs. Very much normal soldier guys. Also note that this is not imprisonment in a prison where you live out your life in peace. It is hard labour in a mine for the Tau's War effort. These people will be worked to death perhaps not as brutally as Orks or even Imperial prisoners which can only take a matter of weeks or months but it is a grim fate indeed for a man whose only crime is being conscripted into the army.
Since the IoM will not make peace with the Tau, or agree a prisoner exchange, how can the Tau release their POWs? Nor are they responsible for the way the IoM rectuirs its troops.
I don't know about the hard labour, etc. I was under the impression that mining is mainly done by drones and machinery.
Of course if the human POWs want to get out of the camp, they need only declare allegiance to the Tau Federation and they can join one of the human colonies.
Kilkrazy wrote:
Of course if the human POWs want to get out of the camp, they need only declare allegiance to the Tau Federation and they can join one of the human colonies.
EF- the difference is the Tau don't take away everything you have when you join the empire. If you have good technology and a well run society it doesn't really change. The kroot are part of the greater good and their society hasn't changed since they joined. The Tau may think they are savage but they know it's not their business to tell the kroot how to live.
They both make you comply with their rules but the Tau rules are a lot less restricting, whereas the imperium attempts to rule you.
Overall farsight won. I am not sure about exactly how it ended but the orks suffered huge casulties from his attacks.
Well I checked again.
It says the Orks used a feint retreat, and Farsight being so reckless chased them, and was hit with a pincer attack (so the Orks won that fight I guess).
That was when Farsight was still the Tau commender, not a renegade IIRC. But it says the Orks and Tau are locked in a war of attrition that the Orks can afford and the Tau cannot. And that Waaagh! is still going on the map, so somebodies wrong.
4M2A wrote:
Overall farsight won. I am not sure about exactly how it ended but the orks suffered huge casulties from his attacks.
The orks in the "war of the dakka" conquered 3 Sept worlds and were still fighting...and you know how a challenge attracts orks.
4M2A wrote: Personaly from what I can see from the official and confirmed as well as Gw comments on the subject of Tau, I would prefer to live in the Tau empire than the imperium. The idea of a restricting government which has no interest in any individual and that supresses anything threatening by destroying everything in the area regardless of casulties is more alien to me that the Tau empires view. Attempting to unite the galaxy with minimum casulties and improving the lives of your people is much closer to what I can understand.
I disagree that their motives are known and I would not like to support a cause to good to be true.
To unite the galaxy under their ideology isn't sitting well with me, as unknown powers pull the strings and I have seen to often
the most vocal "good" guys beeing the opposite. A mask of beauty to hide the truth....
And funnily, siding with the IoM allows to raise casualities to new levels. But I am also a defensive player, keeping my own men alive.
4M2A wrote:We are looking at this purely from a fluff perspective. This is exactly what the imperium wants, but their traditions and faith prevent them from flourishing, something the Tau suffer from. If the imperium copied the Tau they would be able to defeat a lot of the armies in a very short period of time.
Oh the IoM was on the move, pre-heresy with its combined strength of astartes,guard and mechanicum.
Then, their military got nearly halved....
The IoM could outdo everything in production rate, but there is no intend on GW's part to hand the IoM a loaded gun to point at the agressors, as we may all agree that Grimdark is the primary directive of their fluff writing. And the option to lower the threat
level may bring a light into this Galaxy that is not weak enough to dim again. So ignorance and oppression keep the
background grim and dark and give them excuses for lack of creativity.
4M2A wrote:The ethereals don't really control the Tau that much. They have the ability to but most of the time it isn't needed. The Tau have seen what happens when their species doesn't cooperate and are terrified of returning to that. The Greater good is quite transparent, they want to reduce suffering. The reason they are willing to fight for it is due to aiming for the long run rather than expecting it to work straight away. If the Ethereals wanted to trick them they wouldn't take in other races. Every time a race joins the greater good, the ethereal become less in control as they can only control tau, so more of the empire become uncontrollable.
If you hate the ethereals what do you think about farsight? He has an empire fighting for the greater good but without ethereals.
Aiming for the long run as a race of shortlived creatures? I think they lack the horizon to imagine a timeframe of centurys.
If too many of this empire are not Tau, why should they strive for a greater good again?
Fine, Tau fear a civil war. Others may not. Tau have their etherals to guide them, others may follow their own leaders.
So if a race joined and defected later, are they all considered enemys or is there a difference at a certain level?
How do they treat those defecting?
Plus, if youre right and the Tau would be less than 10-15% of their empires population someday, would those outnumbering the Tau not move the direction of the empire in their favor?
Said it before but may repeat: Farsight has seen the light. He accepted the futility of uniting everyone and I believe he could be the last Tau in this Galaxy when the Empire managed to bite more that they can chew. OTOH, he got this weapon of unknown origin...
4M2A wrote:True but it is least evil to try and work together first. The chaos are a threat to the IoM and the IoM is a threat to the greater good. If the IoM can attack chaos the Tau can attack the IoM.
Umm, chaos was the agressor and your example would go:
Chaos -> IoM Tau -> IoM
Even the interex seen chaos as a major threat, and so did the eldar. Both long before Tau existed.
Tau are new, and ran already into a conflict with almost anyone.
The idea of the IoM accepting the greater good is a case of naivity or just dumb. The only power to order any change is the Emperor himself and I doubt they can contact him. Maybe stop nerfing the IoM and we will forget you and youre free to act.
Outside of Imperial space, of course.
4M2A wrote:This is true and the imperium is obviously one of the lighter shades of grey but when the people who designed Tau said they are meant to be the most good force, I think they are right. Of all people the designers know most about 40k.
Designers? They intend,yes, but know? Too much reason to criticise them in their work to take them as 100% correct.
Sadly, you go for "most good" so have to disagree.
PS: Ah nearly forgot my dutys:
They are evil vile xenos scum
One can make an argument for Chaos, considering one of the only 'peaceful' civilisations so far presented in 40k fluff was in Pawns of Chaos, and they worshipped Tzeentch. They lived happily until the evil Imperial forces came to their world and attacked them, but wise Tzeentch sent a Greater Demon to the world, whom was to turn into a Warp Storm, which would tear apart the entire Imperial Army and their ships, and shield the world from further attack.
None of the people on this world were interested in galactic conquest and were perfectly happy living secluded away from the rest of the Galaxy in peace, yet Tzeentch was supplying them with live stock, beasts of burden and gifts for what praise they could manage and was willing to take out the big guns to save this world. Doesn't sound something many other races and leaders would be willing to do.
So then, since no one can all-encompassingly define what "good" and "evil" is, we can conclude that it varies from person to person. If it varies from person to person, then we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has to differ from species to species. Given this, are we expected to answer the poll with regard to how we personally feel, how the Imperium would feel given that we are human, or how a random species would feel about all of the species in question? Since it's a multiple choice answer, I chose all of them, though deep down inside, I know for a fact that the Squats were the only truly good people, which is why they had to die for your sins. Shame on all of you and may Zombie Midget-Jesus have mercy upon your souls when he does finally return to us.
Given that it seems 90% likely that the Tau are a vehicle for the Deceiver or the Outsider (most likely the Deceiver) to refine the next generation of Necrons without the flaws of their previous creations, I'm not sure that anyone can say how good their outcome will be, no matter the purity of their intentions. There's a reason that only the Tau have widespread AI usage, and their... interesting... relationship to psykers and the warp are pretty much perfect for the C'tan.
Then again, the Tech priests could turn out to be gen 2 depending on how Mars and the Void Dragon plays out.
daedalus wrote:So then, since no one can all-encompassingly define what "good" and "evil" is, we can conclude that it varies from person to person. If it varies from person to person, then we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has to differ from species to species. Given this, are we expected to answer the poll with regard to how we personally feel, how the Imperium would feel given that we are human, or how a random species would feel about all of the species in question? Since it's a multiple choice answer, I chose all of them, though deep down inside, I know for a fact that the Squats were the only truly good people, which is why they had to die for your sins. Shame on all of you and may Zombie Midget-Jesus have mercy upon your souls when he does finally return to us.
People can all-encompassingly define it. Read up on the history of moral philosophy.
RisingPheonix where are you getting that from. The outsider can't do anything at the moment, and there is no proof the deciever had anything to do with them. The c'tan don't need more soldiers. If the awaken the necrons they can potentially wipe out the galaxy, again.
1hadhq, I am not able to comment on your other points due to time limits but, how can the designers be wrong. They created this race and have the ability to entiirely change it any time they wish. If they say they are the good force (which they did) then they are.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Neither orks nor nids are capable of being 'evil' since they don't have a morality.
If true that still only that makes them ammoral. Not 'least evil'.
4M2A wrote:EF- the difference is the Tau don't take away everything you have when you join the empire. If you have good technology and a well run society it doesn't really change. The kroot are part of the greater good and their society hasn't changed since they joined. The Tau may think they are savage but they know it's not their business to tell the kroot how to live.
They both make you comply with their rules but the Tau rules are a lot less restricting, whereas the imperium attempts to rule you.
Actually the Imperium hardly infringes on the culture of world under their command at all. he Ecclesiarchy is [i]veryp/i] lax in how worlds view the Emperor, so long as they do worship him as a diety. For example, some world view him as a night spirit which protects the warriors of the tribe on their hunts, while other civilised worlds go with the more widely accepted view. Even mutants are tolerated, although their treatment varies wildly. I don't recall any tau fluff on their treatment regarding mutants at all.
Basically, the Imperium itself tends to leave worlds well enough alone but for three things.
1) Alien invasion, coercion and/or influence. Basically an outside threat.
2) Heresy, rebellion, or seccession.
3) Failure to comply with vital Imperial regiment and goods supplies.
All things considered the Imperium isn't as domineering as one might think. The actual running and culture of each world are left to those actually on it.
Emperors Faithful wrote:The Ecclesiarchy is very lax in how worlds view the Emperor, so long as they do worship him as a diety.
You mean like the time they attacked the SW over it?
Of course I know the SW attacked first, but the fact that the Ecclesiarchy went to Fenris to check on them in the first place kind of takes away the "very"
There has always been a longstanding disgruntlement between the Ecclesiarchy and the SM chapters as SM refer to the Emperor as a man not a diety. A wonderful, poweful and courgaeous man, but still a man. This flies in the face of the Ecclesiarchie's teachings on godhood, but they can't afford to anger the SM chapters. Sometimes though certain chapters, SW being among them, do overstep the line. I can't remember exactly what piece of SW doctrine it was that upset the Ecclesiarchy so much though.
Nids, because they have no concept of good or evil so therefor how could what they are doing be viewed as either. They are devouring genetic material to stay alive and reproduce it just so happens we are in their path.
1hadhq, I am not able to comment on your other points due to time limits but, how can the designers be wrong. They created this race and have the ability to entiirely change it any time they wish. If they say they are the good force (which they did) then they are.
You don't need to hurry.
The designer said before 1st codex so, now is he still at GW? Was there a second codex? Are codices always compatible in fluff?
Or worse are designers humans and therefore imperfect as we all are?
So Tau are part of the brighter side of 40k, but I dont think a codex repeated the notes, which is why none of the 2 codices get quoted
in this thread.
4M2A wrote:RisingPheonix where are you getting that from. The outsider can't do anything at the moment, and there is no proof the deciever had anything to do with them. The c'tan don't need more soldiers. If the awaken the necrons they can potentially wipe out the galaxy, again.
1hadhq, I am not able to comment on your other points due to time limits but, how can the designers be wrong. They created this race and have the ability to entiirely change it any time they wish. If they say they are the good force (which they did) then they are.
Their fluff is very clear that the technological pace of the Tau has out-accelerated every known pace that any other race has undergone. Their codex clearly describes a single tau of unusual appearance who walked into their camp and unified them in M37. The individual in question bypassed all guards and was treated with deference for his unquestionable authority (despite being a complete stranger, and also looking like none of them). Immediately after this, a brand new species emerged that was very different from th Tau, and ruled them. The technological change accelerated to an unheard of level at that point.
Also, more to the point, the C'tan do need more soldiers. Specifically, the C'tan could potentially wipe out the galaxy with their necrons, even though they have weakened (Necrons are failed creations, every death degrades their quality a little more). But what they could not do is assuredly win against the other C'tan, specifically the Nightbringer once he gets back up to speed and figures he can go have the other 3 meals. It's almost certain the Void Dragon is planning to obtain its own force with the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. It seems likely the Deceiver is making the new and improved Necrons out of the Tau. And no one has frak all idea what that lunatic the Outsider is up to.
Frankly, all of the fluff is clear that the Tau are an uplifted race, and the only capable beings are the Old Ones or the C'tan - Chaos doesn't have the tech or the focus, the Eldar are just too unlikely to have successfully pulled it off (especially engineering the Ethereals), and the Imperium obviously wouldn't. The Deceiver seems the most likely culprit. It also explains why the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Tau are the only idiots in the Galaxy left who use AIs (and the Adeptus at least indoctrinate the gak out of theirs so they won't get betrayed at random times).
P.S. It's the deceiver. It has a few irons in the fire, it's been awake for a while.
RisingPheonix- The Tau sped of growth is down to having a very productive approach, basic control of evolution (the caste system), and being trapped in a warp storm which could have meant that what was a short peroid on the outside was much longer for the Tau. The reason they trusted the ethereal is becasue they can control other tau. The eldar could be responsible, the Tau could easily be an eldar weapon against chaos or maybe just a distraction for an eldar plot. The ethereals appearance was at a time when the whole species had split apart and evolved down different paths. It is entirely possible the ethereals are natural.
As C'tan cannot go near anything warp related it would be very difficult for them to get anywhere near T'au in the middle of a warpstorm.
Actually the Imperium hardly infringes on the culture of world under their command at all. he Ecclesiarchy is [i]veryp/i] lax in how worlds view the Emperor, so long as they do worship him as a diety. For example, some world view him as a night spirit which protects the warriors of the tribe on their hunts, while other civilised worlds go with the more widely accepted view. Even mutants are tolerated, although their treatment varies wildly. I don't recall any tau fluff on their treatment regarding mutants at all.
Basically, the Imperium itself tends to leave worlds well enough alone but for three things.
This is only in the good worlds and as long as you behave yourself and are human. For non humans your dead even if you just try to run away, which doesn't really seem to be the sign of a good force. Humans also have to put up with the imperiums rule whether they like it or not. If you disagree, you shut up or die, I personaly wouldn't want to live there. The ad mech is also very aggressive in restricting people. No new technology, however well it works. If you make something they like they just steal it and lock it up in s vault, and you get nothing.
People keep saying the imperium only want the Tau to leave imperial space but the imperium claims all the space it can controll. Outside of imperial space there isn't really anything, just an empty void. Not really much chance of anything surviving out there.
Kilkrazy wrote:
People can all-encompassingly define it. Read up on the history of moral philosophy.
They can all-encompassingly define what evil means to themselves, not what evil means as a collective summation of how everyone feels. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would be quick to judge Plato's Republic differently. I for one would call it evil, but there's also a lot of things in existence that I consider quite evil that I doubt most people would agree with.
Orks are Fungus...Mushrooms aren't evil just bad for you if you eat them....Orks just kinda cruise around and look for a good time there is no big picture for them.
4M2A wrote:RisingPheonix- The Tau sped of growth is down to having a very productive approach, basic control of evolution (the caste system), and being trapped in a warp storm which could have meant that what was a short peroid on the outside was much longer for the Tau. The reason they trusted the ethereal is becasue they can control other tau. The eldar could be responsible, the Tau could easily be an eldar weapon against chaos or maybe just a distraction for an eldar plot. The ethereals appearance was at a time when the whole species had split apart and evolved down different paths. It is entirely possible the ethereals are natural.
As C'tan cannot go near anything warp related it would be very difficult for them to get anywhere near T'au in the middle of a warpstorm.
Which isn't much, if an aspect of the Deceiver is already there. Also, the Imperium is currently being manipulated by both the Void Dragon and the Deceiver, and there's no way the Deceiver wins in a head-to-head with the Void Dragon, so it's really really likely he has other plans.
Come on, nothing about the Tau codex suggests in any way the Etherials and their technological progress are natural. Worldwide, a new breed of Tau shows up and unifies the race? All of a sudden, across the planet? Suddenly a technological golden age erupts, where the Tau put this strange new species in charge of their entire destiny, evolve their technology to unheard of levels, and allow these superbeings a level of control that means a Caste Tau would happily slit their own throat if ordered?
As I said, these are the culprits, in order of likelihood:
Deceiver - While they can't interact with the Warp, they've certainly studied it, especially the most cunning and dangerous of the C'tan. Also need new troops.
Eldar - They have the ability to predict the Warp, and if anyone is playing a long game, it's them. Probably the least sinister explanation.
Old Ones - Supposedly all gone and stuff. That being said, this was ALWAYS their approach. Orks and Eldar are probably half useless to them at this point.
Rogue Adeptus Mechanicus - seeing how Tau technology outstrips them, this seems unlikely, but the Adeptus Mechanicus could certainly get the Tau most of the way there. A project to regain some of their lost technology, using a young and vital race, rather than the worn out shell of humanity?
Chaos Gods - Despite the warpstorm, this just really isn't their style. A 'long game' with them is usually like 10 minutes. Plus the Tau philosophy is close to none of them.
Tyranids - Second least likely explanation
Orks - Yep, there's less likely than 'nids. Not that the galaxy being controlled by a conspiracy of Brain Boyz wouldn't be the most awesome thing ever.
Orks - Yep, there's less likely than 'nids. Not that the galaxy being controlled by a conspiracy of Brain Boyz wouldn't be the most awesome thing ever.
Hmmm, I always thought the Brainboys were what the Orks called the Old Ones but thats just me.
Orks - Yep, there's less likely than 'nids. Not that the galaxy being controlled by a conspiracy of Brain Boyz wouldn't be the most awesome thing ever.
Hmmm, I always thought the Brainboys were what the Orks called the Old Ones but thats just me.
In old fluff, they were snottlings that had found a special fungus that made them super-intelligent, far smarter than humans, tau, anyone. They genetically engineered the race, but the orks were farming the fungus to extinction. Seeing that they were doomed, they gave orks the innate intelligence to make anything they needed, instinctively, and engineered the race to be what they are today.
That's kind of in limbo because the Old Ones now run everything, but I always liked it better. The idea of a small world with brain boyz still on it, where they secretly manage every movement of the galaxy, just to create newer and cooler things for the orks to fight amuses me.
I agree life imprisonment isn't evil for a criminal however take not that these are not criminals but POWs. Very much normal soldier guys. Also note that this is not imprisonment in a prison where you live out your life in peace. It is hard labour in a mine for the Tau's War effort. These people will be worked to death perhaps not as brutally as Orks or even Imperial prisoners which can only take a matter of weeks or months but it is a grim fate indeed for a man whose only crime is being conscripted into the army.
Since the IoM will not make peace with the Tau, or agree a prisoner exchange, how can the Tau release their POWs? Nor are they responsible for the way the IoM rectuirs its troops.
I don't know about the hard labour, etc. I was under the impression that mining is mainly done by drones and machinery.
Of course if the human POWs want to get out of the camp, they need only declare allegiance to the Tau Federation and they can join one of the human colonies.
You're making an assuption there. There's no getting out of the prison by saying the right things. In fact, it's implied these prisnors well get some of the worst treatment in the Empire because an Etheral dies on Taros.
As for your justifications for this treatment of PoWs: that may be true but it just sucks for those guys. My point is that not everything is rainbows and lolipops in Tauland.
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UbiSwanky2 wrote:Orks are Fungus...Mushrooms aren't evil just bad for you if you eat them....Orks just kinda cruise around and look for a good time there is no big picture for them.
>>You're making an assuption there. There's no getting out of the prison by saying the right things. In fact, it's implied these prisnors well get some of the worst treatment in the Empire because an Etheral dies on Taros.
Who implies that?
It's hardly going to be the Tau. We know from Imperial sources that they are happy to integrate and arm humans who leave the IoM and join the Federation. That's where Gue'vesa come from.
If it is from Imperial sources we might suspect a little bit of propaganda...?
Kilkrazy wrote:>>You're making an assuption there. There's no getting out of the prison by saying the right things. In fact, it's implied these prisnors well get some of the worst treatment in the Empire because an Etheral dies on Taros.
Who implies that?
It's hardly going to be the Tau. We know from Imperial sources that they are happy to integrate and arm humans who leave the IoM and join the Federation. That's where Gue'vesa come from.
If it is from Imperial sources we might suspect a little bit of propaganda...?
It's from a 3rd person Narrator. It wasn't meant to be "in-universe" style. Why are you so resistant to admitting Tau might have done something unethical? I'll freely admit the the Tau are least evil but that doesn't mean they are incapable of evil. You cannot build an empire without an iron fist and the Tau are indeed an empire.
Why not use an example from the Tau Federation codex-- Commander Puretide or whoever it was who used excessive force against an IG column.
We know nothing about the political setup of the Tau Federation except that it is ruled by an oligarchic council and includes a number of federated alien species. It isn't an empire.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's from a 3rd person Narrator. It wasn't meant to be "in-universe" style.
You mean the narrator who knows every step by the Imperial forces but is completely in the dark about what the Tau do? Yes, certainly not Imperial biased BTW it is a mining world, where there is only one job to do: mining. Did you expect the prisoners to do the supervision or administration of the non-prisoners?
@Kilkrazy: Puretide was the teacher of Farsight and Shadowsun, Farsight the teacher of Brightsword, the latter was sacked for his massacre (and later killed by a Kill Team, if the Gav Thorpe novel is considered canon).
4M2A wrote:
This is only in the good worlds and as long as you behave yourself and are human. For non humans your dead even if you just try to run away, which doesn't really seem to be the sign of a good force.
I was addressing your arguement that the Imperium is domineering every aspect of life on their planets, as opposed to the free-for-all Tau. In fact it is the opposite, the Imperium simply can't manage over 1 million worlds, which is why there are such vast differences between the running of one planet and the other. Tau worlds are less in number and easier to micro-manage. I doubt that the worlds under Tau rule get any sort of independancy, even less so than if in the Imperium.
Humans also have to put up with the imperiums rule whether they like it or not. If you disagree, you shut up or die, I personaly wouldn't want to live there.
As opposed to the Tau Empire in which you are a second class citizen? And I suppose if you want to join the Imperium they are okay with that and will leave. They don't want to be in your way after all.
The ad mech is also very aggressive in restricting people. No new technology, however well it works. If you make something they like they just steal it and lock it up in s vault, and you get nothing.
Wrong, STC's are discovered which opens up new technology and the rediscovery of old inventions. In fact they are head over heels for those who discover new pieces of tech, such as SM giving STC gifts to ease diplomatic tensions and in the Guants Ghosts novel there was a team that discovered an STC as a reward were each given governship of an entire planet. But overall the Imperium is in technological decline, however this could be argued that it is almost prefferable to a repeat of the Dark Age of Technology, which I can't make heads nor tails of.
People keep saying the imperium only want the Tau to leave imperial space but the imperium claims all the space it can controll. Outside of imperial space there isn't really anything, just an empty void. Not really much chance of anything surviving out there.
The area outside of Imperium space (which is actually honeycombed rather than a set territory) is simply unexplored, not a dark void.
Kroothawk wrote:
@Kilkrazy: Puretide was the teacher of Farsight and Shadowsun, Farsight the teacher of Brightsword, the latter was sacked for his massacre (and later killed by a Kill Team, if the Gav Thorpe novel is considered canon).
Brightsword was the one who massacred the Vostroyan 9th on Polia was it? I remember reading (from Cities of Death) that he ignored some advice, but I saw no evidence of him being prominently sacked. Can you provide a source please?
Why not use an example from the Tau Federation codex-- Commander Puretide or whoever it was who used excessive force against an IG column.
Which also happens in The Taros campaign. What the heck is the Tau Federation Codex.
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Kroothawk wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's from a 3rd person Narrator. It wasn't meant to be "in-universe" style.
You mean the narrator who knows every step by the Imperial forces but is completely in the dark about what the Tau do? Yes, certainly not Imperial biased BTW it is a mining world, where there is only one job to do: mining. Did you expect the prisoners to do the supervision or administration of the non-prisoners?
@Kilkrazy: Puretide was the teacher of Farsight and Shadowsun, Farsight the teacher of Brightsword, the latter was sacked for his massacre (and later killed by a Kill Team, if the Gav Thorpe novel is considered canon).
Which also happens in the actual codices of Aliens. Aliens are meant to be kept mysterious because we are not supposed to be able to comprehend them and blah blah.
However, the full political situation and policies of Tau are given at the begining and Force disposition and Causalties are given at the end. The Narrator knows things an Imperial scholar couldn't. The battles follow the imperials because its more dramatic that way.
You act like putting PoWs in a chain gang is the only reasonable thing to do. The ethical thing to do would be just to imprison them. They don't even do that in Guantanamo for God's sake. I'm not even saying I disagree with them. I would have done the same thing. Just saying there were several high roads they could have taken in that war and they didn't. The Fire Caste actually didn't follow their Etheral's wishes posthumusly. He just wanted to let the Imperials retreat uncontested to save lives on both sides. However the Fire Caste got pissed and decided to get some killing done. At this point many were unarmed and unable to walk due to dehydration. If not for the Raptors it would have been a complete massacre.
Also hanging the half-eaten corpse of the Elysian commander from rope is considered dishonourable in some circles.
EF- I wasn't talking about finding an STC, I meant the imperium taking a planet then confiscating their tech becasue it isn't STC, which they do.
The idea that the size of the imperium makes a difference to how it is ruled doesn't work in this situation. The imperium has ample supplies and resources to enforce its rules. Change the laws to give people more rights is possible for the imperium they just don't care about humans. They could easily let the planetary governers make each planet into a democracy, but they won't. They have become so absessed with contiuing the human race that they are making life worse for a very large number of humans.
KamikazeCanuck- So the FW are evil for killing PoW who are soldiers but the imperium is ok when they destroy entire populations, including civilians.
Where is the evidence of being treated like a second class citizen? I haven't read anything saying that but it keeps being metioned.
When looking at the lifestyles of those living in the Tau empire I would possibly choose to become a second class citizen as the lifestyle would still probably be better.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Brightsword was the one who massacred the Vostroyan 9th on Polia was it? I remember reading (from Cities of Death) that he ignored some advice, but I saw no evidence of him being prominently sacked. Can you provide a source please?
Codex Tau Empire, page 15. Maybe more in the novel "Kill Team", but this novel's plot is a bit weird and POV is a psychopathic human killer with blackouts.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Which also happens in the actual codices of Aliens. Aliens are meant to be kept mysterious because we are not supposed to be able to comprehend them and blah blah.
However, the full political situation and policies of Tau are given at the begining and Force disposition and Causalties are given at the end. The Narrator knows things an Imperial scholar couldn't. The battles follow the imperials because its more dramatic that way.
You act like putting PoWs in a chain gang is the only reasonable thing to do. The ethical thing to do would be just to imprison them. They don't even do that in Guantanamo for God's sake. I'm not even saying I disagree with them. I would have done the same thing. Just saying there were several high roads they could have taken in that war and they didn't. The Fire Caste actually didn't follow their Etheral's wishes posthumusly. He just wanted to let the Imperials retreat uncontested to save lives on both sides. However the Fire Caste got pissed and decided to get some killing done. At this point many were unarmed and unable to walk due to dehydration. If not for the Raptors it would have been a complete massacre.
Also hanging the half-eaten corpse of the Elysian commander from rope is considered dishonourable in some circles.
1.) All Codices and most 40k novels are written strictly from an Imperial POV, because of the dogma "Aliens are too alien for readers to identify with". That's why Tyranids and Tau units are presented with Imperial names (there are no prominent fishes on the desert world of T'au). And the Taros campaign narrator is clearly Imperial, calling the humans fighting for Tau "traitors" and saying that he only knows the casualty numbers of the Imperial forces and can only guess the Tau calualites. Giving some important non-Imperial information (e.g. army composition and exact unit stats from Orca to Crisis Suit) in the non-narrated section is a compromise for the reader's benefit (esp. Tau players) and not in line with the strictly Imperial narration in the main sector.
2.) This is a desert mining planet. And not an overly rich one. Before the war, most humans work in the mines. After the war most humans work in the mines. No word on chain gangs, just that the prisoners work in the mines. Like everyone else has to do on this planet. No lazy life and free lunch in a prison cell, maybe because the planet can't afford to accommodate for so many non-working people. Maybe the human government decided this, as Tau usually don't govern non-Tau planets. We don't know.
3.) 8000 human "traitors" acknowledged by the narrator. And an ethereal who wants to negotiate an uncontested retreat to save lives? How does that fit into the image of the massacre-happy oppressors spread by some people here? Also remember the setting that the planet just wanted to trade with the Tau, and the Imperium wanted to attack Taros and kill the goverment for that.
4M2A wrote:EF- I wasn't talking about finding an STC, I meant the imperium taking a planet then confiscating their tech becasue it isn't STC, which they do.
Dark Age of Technology. Humanity sometimes learns from it's mistakes.
The idea that the size of the imperium makes a difference to how it is ruled doesn't work in this situation. The imperium has ample supplies and resources to enforce its rules. Change the laws to give people more rights is possible for the imperium they just don't care about humans. They could easily let the planetary governers make each planet into a democracy, but they won't. They have become so absessed with contiuing the human race that they are making life worse for a very large number of humans.
Impossible. Utterly so. Some worlds are akin to democracy, electing their planetary governers and such. But for an outside power to enforce a different (and to some worlds utterly alien in concept)system of government to over a different worlds when they rely on said worlds just to ensure the uprisings and outside threats are kept in check (which even then they aren't) is simply impossbile. The imperium would collapse overnight through such an attempt. As it is the Imperium is teetering on the verge of defeat, with only their stringent and harsh measures preventing the entirety of humantiy either suffering slavery (Orks/Tau/Chaos/DE) or death (everyone else). The very notion that the feat of bringing democracy to the entirety of the Imperium is possible to even attempt is ludicrously laughable.
KamikazeCanuck- So the FW are evil for killing PoW who are soldiers but the imperium is ok when they destroy entire populations, including civilians.
Well, we're just trying to debunk those Tau fanboys by pointing out that the differences between Tau and Imperium really aren't as large as you'd like to think.
Where is the evidence of being treated like a second class citizen? I haven't read anything saying that but it keeps being metioned.
When looking at the lifestyles of those living in the Tau empire I would possibly choose to become a second class citizen as the lifestyle would still probably be better.
First of all, there is the caste system. Etherals on top, with several different levels of Tau castes, then the xenos auxilliaries outside of this sphere. They don't even have a chance at political say let alone power. Then there is the fact that the Tau Empire is an Oligarchy run by the Ethereals, who quite possibly exert their control over other Tau through chemical pheremones. This flies in the face of Tau fanboys, like KrootHawk. However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures, which hurts Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.
Dark Age of Technology. Humanity sometimes learns from it's mistakes.
And sometimes they allow their fear to cloud what is really the truth. STCs aren't any safer than any other kind of inverntion the Admech has just become obsessed with them being holy. They can try to improve tehnology without, creating killer robots again. They just need to make sure they need humans to run. Even the Emperor encouraged people to start thinking scientifically again.
Impossible. Utterly so. Some worlds are akin to democracy, electing their planetary governers and such. But for an outside power to enforce a different (and to some worlds utterly alien in concept)system of government to over a different worlds when they rely on said worlds just to ensure the uprisings and outside threats are kept in check (which even then they aren't) is simply impossbile. The imperium would collapse overnight through such an attempt. As it is the Imperium is teetering on the verge of defeat, with only their stringent and harsh measures preventing the entirety of humantiy either suffering slavery (Orks/Tau/Chaos/DE) or death (everyone else). The very notion that the feat of bringing democracy to the entirety of the Imperium is possible to even attempt is ludicrously laughable.
It is possible to have a democracy with restrictions. They would of course have to provide their Tithes and not worship chaos ec... It is possible for them to have an elected governernment for the planet instead of the imperium choosing the governers (as they do on many worlds).
we're just trying to debunk those Tau fanboys by pointing out that the differences between Tau and Imperium really aren't as large as you'd like to think.
Well I would say killing civilians is a lot worse than killing PoW. Aside from locking them up for the rest of their lives (and therefore using Tau resources) what are they meant to do with them. The imperium won't take them back, any attempts to meet would result in a fight. In the Case that Kamikazecanuck mentioned the FW disobeyed the ethereals orders. This may show those FW did the wrong thing but the Tau empire intended top let them go.
First of all, there is the caste system. Etherals on top, with several different levels of Tau castes, then the xenos auxilliaries outside of this sphere. They don't even have a chance at political say let alone power. Then there is the fact that the Tau Empire is an Oligarchy run by the Ethereals, who quite possibly exert their control over other Tau through chemical pheremones.
They do have castes but the Ethereals aren't on top. There is no top caste. They have different but equally important roles. While the other 4 castes work the Ethereals make sure the Tau empire continues functioning. We don't voew politicians as better than us, the ethereals fill a similar role. They do stay seperate from the other Tau but that is because their role is very independant. While the Etheareals can use pheremones to control the Tau they rarely do it. The Tau know what will happen if the greater god fails and for most that is enough motivation to do their part in the empire.
This flies in the face of Tau fanboys, like KrootHawk. However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures, which hurts Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.
My personal view is the second, that their plan for the galaxy is the most "good" but they are in a difficult situation as however they approach many of the other races they will still refuse, even though by joining the Tau life would improve. The imperium intentions and aims are nowhere near so good.
4M2A wrote:
And sometimes they allow their fear to cloud what is really the truth. STCs aren't any safer than any other kind of inverntion the Admech has just become obsessed with them being holy. They can try to improve tehnology without, creating killer robots again. They just need to make sure they need humans to run. Even the Emperor encouraged people to start thinking scientifically again.
Actually, there is the whole theory that the C'Tan Star God (Void Dragon something or other?) is behind the manipulation of Mankinds technological path. But I don't know gak about that, so I can't say. Either way it's obvious that Tau are more technologically advanced. Who's arguing otherwise?
It is possible to have a democracy with restrictions. They would of course have to provide their Tithes and not worship chaos ec... It is possible for them to have an elected governernment for the planet instead of the imperium choosing the governers (as they do on many worlds).
Possible to exist. There are even examples in some systems including those of Ultramar. Utterly impossible to enforce.
Well I would say killing civilians is a lot worse than killing PoW. Aside from locking them up for the rest of their lives (and therefore using Tau resources) what are they meant to do with them. The imperium won't take them back, any attempts to meet would result in a fight. In the Case that Kamikazecanuck mentioned the FW disobeyed the ethereals orders. This may show those FW did the wrong thing but the Tau empire intended top let them go.
*shrug*. You win this one? I haven't read the book so... (Although I would still argue that allowing some to join the Tau Empire and dropping the others off where ever is doable)
They do have castes but the Ethereals aren't on top. There is no top caste. They have different but equally important roles. While the other 4 castes work the Ethereals make sure the Tau empire continues functioning. We don't voew politicians as better than us, the ethereals fill a similar role. They do stay seperate from the other Tau but that is because their role is very independant. While the Etheareals can use pheremones to control the Tau they rarely do it. The Tau know what will happen if the greater god fails and for most that is enough motivation to do their part in the empire.
Please, Ethereals are top dog and it's a fact.
My personal view is the second, that their plan for the galaxy is the most "good" but they are in a difficult situation as however they approach many of the other races they will still refuse, even though by joining the Tau life would improve. The imperium intentions and aims are nowhere near so good.
It can be argued that Imperium was much the same, if not identical, to the Tau in approach before the days of the Great Crusade. However, the Imperium has learnt that it is a harsh galaxy that offers no favours to the lovey-dovey. It's intentions are survival, which is the best it can hope to achieve. Tau will, sooner or later, realise that this is the only option they have as well.
Actually there isn't any fluff saying the Ethereal view themselves as above the other Tau. Many other Tau look up to the Ethereals, and almost worship them, but this is a voluntary thing. You can see from the kroot that joining the Tau empire doesn't mean joining Tau society. They both work together but they way they live and are ruled is entirley seperate. There is no way the Kroot would let themselves be controlled by the ethereals, they view them as nothing more than any other Tau.
The imperiums view to itself was very similar at the start, except they still hated all aliens. If the heresy hadn't occured then the imperium would be a much better place to live in. The religious oppression would e gone and they would try to improve life for themselves. The Tau's willingness to include other races is a huge strength, they have shown that they can trade between species, and transfer benfits without opressing any of the species beliefs.
1. Ethereals are at the top. Those at the top have a history of viewing themselves as better. However, whether they actually do or don't view themselves as better means little, as it is still an oligarchy, which makes your argument that the Imperium should be democratic not only ridiculous, but slightly hypocratic as well.
2. The Kroot are a mercenary race. The Tau frown on this. Those human world under Tau rule? What about them?
3. Before the Great Crusade (during Age of Strife, Technology or even before that) there is little to suggest a xenophobic stance from mankind. I think the Imperium learnt it's lesson not to trust xenos after the Age of Strife.
4. The Tau's idealistic approach will also be their greatest downfall, as the system of rulership they have over their new conquests (if not overseen arbitrarily) will collapse as planets come and go as they please.
4M2A wrote:Actually there isn't any fluff saying the Ethereal view themselves as above the other Tau. Many other Tau look up to the Ethereals, and almost worship them, but this is a voluntary thing. You can see from the kroot that joining the Tau empire doesn't mean joining Tau society. They both work together but they way they live and are ruled is entirley seperate. There is no way the Kroot would let themselves be controlled by the ethereals, they view them as nothing more than any other Tau.
Not to mention that the codex outright states that the Tau Empire is ruled by a council that includes members from all the castes (page 9 of the codex). The Tau government is an Oligarchy with 2 councils, a supreme, ethereal (spritual) council and the mundane (earthly) council with representatives of the various castes.
When people speak about the subjugation of other species, it's crock. Page 8 of the codex even mentions that "alien subjects being granted roles of responsibility within Tau society".... I don't know about you but when a human or other alien species is given direct authority within a society (rather than killed outright), I would not think them too oppressed.
Unarguably, the Tau use trade and diplomacy as a tool of conquest and a means to undermine planetary governments with the intent to enlarge the empire; however, how would you choose to be conquered? By a species that offers advanced technologies that make your life easier and the potential to have a voice in the direction of the society you live in? Or would you rather have a visit by the various other 40k factions that will: eat you, kill you, subjugate you, imprison you, torture you, sacrifice you or a combination thereof?
1. Do you have sources that you know say this, as I have never seen them say they are better. They are on a seperate level, but not above. Other castes can take part in Tau politics. Once a FW has served in battle for a period of time and risen in the tau armies, it gets the chance to take part in Tau politics. That's not democracy but it's closer than the imperiums got.
2. The Tau don't like the Kroot being mercenaries for other races, which is understandable, as they may end up fighting the Tau. They agreed to become allies (They are more than just mercenaries for the Tau) so they should not be helping the Tau's enemies. The Tau think the Kroots eating habits are savage but no more than a human would think another human from a fuedal world is savage. The Tau empire is badly named, it is more like a collectin of races cooperation. They aren't ruled by one organisation and don't have to live on the same planet. When the a race joins the greater good all they agree to is trading, an alliance and contributing any discoveries to the other races.
3.Fair Point. The difference is the Tau don't use the Blanket approach. They have learned Orks and Nids can't be allied with but they give the more reasonable races a go. Most humans don't mind aliens or only dislike them from what the imperium has told them, its the imperims rulers who are xenophobic.
4. The Tau's idealistic approach works because they know they have to fight and sometimes do the evil thing to get it. The aim is long term so while they will try to reduce casulties they know sometimes you will have to kill innocent people. The point of the greater good is that a few people may have to die but in the end it will be worth it. They try to give people the choice so that they don't have to die.
Emperors Faithful wrote:First of all, there is the caste system. Etherals on top, with several different levels of Tau castes, then the xenos auxilliaries outside of this sphere. They don't even have a chance at political say let alone power. Then there is the fact that the Tau Empire is an Oligarchy run by the Ethereals, who quite possibly exert their control over other Tau through chemical pheremones. This flies in the face of Tau fanboys, like KrootHawk. However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures, which hurts Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.
You are confusing some things.
1.) There is the Tau race. It is organised into 5 castes due to historic necessity, as only the presence of the ethereals prevents the society to degenerate into a bloody civil war (Mont'au). This is a historic fact. The balance is delicate and no Xeno will ever become part of the Tau society as it is ultimately built upon and linked to the Tau race. The caste system and ethereal position has no meaning to a Xeno. While in principle the ethereal caste is ruling, the rule is very low key, as the day-to-day decisions are made by the other castes. Ethereals usually only decide on the direction. As they value altruism, peace and life, their rulership is mild.
2.) There is the Tau Empire. For obvious reasons, ethereals have no rigid control over Xenos. For obvious reasons, due to low numbers, Tau couldn't oppress awhole sector even if they wanted. They don't want it as they want a union of autonomous planets coordinated by the altruistic ideal of "The Greater Good". For further information, I let the Battlefield Gothic rules speak for itself:
As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than
appreciation and friendship in return.
Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.
3.) Kroot a mercenary race? What is a mercenary race? Ever seen a baby selling its killing skills to anyone? If you make things up, please use at least some common sense.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, we're just trying to debunk those Tau fanboys by pointing out that the differences between Tau and Imperium really aren't as large as you'd like to think.
Well, it is okay that you haven't read the Taros book and obviously other background texts on Tau neither. Most Tau-haters haven't. But (Tau-haters) making up stories, telling obvious lies in hope that noone will check and insulting people who actually KNOW the background texts is not a sufficient substitute for competence. And you will have noticed that I check all Tau hatemongering claims and prove them false.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures,
unpleasant measures nice attempt to put on the pink glasses.
They do intend what they do. Nobody except their own leaders force them.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.
I doubt your faith good sir. Vostroyans failed him twice now. Dont go to 3.
4M2A wrote:EF- I wasn't talking about finding an STC, I meant the imperium taking a planet then confiscating their tech becasue it isn't STC, which they do.
The idea that the size of the imperium makes a difference to how it is ruled doesn't work in this situation. The imperium has ample supplies and resources to enforce its rules. Change the laws to give people more rights is possible for the imperium they just don't care about humans. They could easily let the planetary governers make each planet into a democracy, but they won't. They have become so absessed with contiuing the human race that they are making life worse for a very large number of humans.
KamikazeCanuck- So the FW are evil for killing PoW who are soldiers but the imperium is ok when they destroy entire populations, including civilians.
quote]
Did I say that? No. I'm talking about the Tau on their own merits. If you can't defend the Tau without saying "Well Imperium does it" then you've got no arguement.
You do have to look at the situation. I have said that I don't think Tau are innocent, they have killed people. Any perfectly innocent race is going to end up dead very fast. Instead Tau try to do the best they can.
Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures
This is what I could think of off the top of my head.
4M2A wrote:You do have to look at the situation. I have said that I don't think Tau are innocent, they have killed people. Any perfectly innocent race is going to end up dead very fast. Instead Tau try to do the best they can.
Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures
This is what I could think of off the top of my head.
1) Yes
2) Yes but I don't know how equal the "alien" races are. Surely they must exist in yet another caste and that caste could never be seen as being on par with the other 5 historical Tau ones
3) I assume you mean thought. That's a little ironic considereing Etherals have evolved to naturall mind-control the other castes.
4) No. You'll run your planet according to what's best for the greater good. In fact The imperium practices far greater tolerance in the way a planet is run. All forms of goverment exist within the Imperium: Theocracy, Communism, Fascism, Democracy, Anarchy. They don't care as long as you pay your taxes.
5) Strives to advance technology period. Citizens may benefit may not.
6) Depends how they feel that day.
7) What other cultures? There is only the greater Good a concept they hammer home every day.
4M2A wrote:You do have to look at the situation. I have said that I don't think Tau are innocent, they have killed people. Any perfectly innocent race is going to end up dead very fast. Instead Tau try to do the best they can.
Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures
This is what I could think of off the top of my head.
Part of what caused the Damocles mess was the fringe imperial worlds were caught trading with the Tau for advanced manufacturing and farming technology (imperial report, page 20 of the Tau codex)...of course anything that makes an imperial citizen's life less of a burden must be HERESY! so they decided to sweep in and kill everybody.
4M2A wrote:
Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures
The IoM did:
1. Tried this pre-heresy.
2. Gathers the lost colonies and I doubt orks, nids, demons, eldar, care if the Tau may allow them to join.
3. Has tough people No, i know typo. IoM offers to freely think they got the best leader and also freely think how to use their life to the imperiums benefits and obviously freely think about new methods to reduce the threat of traitors and xenos.
See, tons of freedom.
4. Gives the planetary government the decision how its run, so exactly the same.......
5. Improves the lifes of citizens as it allows them to strive for maximum effort with minimum tech.
6. Attempts to keep casualties on the opponents side at 110%, but is prepared to spent their own lives
7. Has more culture in a single system than Tau in their whole empire. Meant cultures? So .... millions of worlds = how many cultures
can we think of?
and things the IoM does:
8. shoulders the majority of waaghs, nid fleets, dark crusades, ...
9. keeps the demons at bay.
10. tramples on eldar maiden worlds
11. releases a C'tan
12. blasts plantes to pieces
13. saves littleblue-greys when they would get eaten or disintegrated....
14. have civil wars and survive them without "etherals" as they don't need superpowers, just oridinary fellow to do the right thing..
15. supports thousands of armygroups and fleets and chapters and ......
16. communicates across the galaxy
17. fields psykers
18. survives 10 millenia
19. bio engineered its own supersoldiers
20. isn't afraid of anything and thus never runs away.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What caused the Damocles crusade was the Annexation of 20 worlds from the Imperium. You cannot expect The Imperium to not respond to that.
The imperium is a fluid thing; they lose more worlds in a year to Orks and Tyranids than they ever did to the Tau. Page 8 of the Tau Codex states, "Members of the Water Caste established trade agreements with imperial worlds on the frontier and exchanges of goods and technology were common. Alarmed by the threat of alien contamination, the Administratum readied a suitable response and, almost a century later, the Damocles Crusade smashed into Tau space..."
* alien contamination: emphasis mine. Note there is no mention that the reason for the crusade was the loss of worlds. As always, the imperium's paranoia regarding outside influence is the cause of bitter bloodshed.
"Upon a score of worlds, Water Caste envoys whispered long-rehearshed words into willing ears. The seeds of rebellion had long been cultivated, and now bore fruit as each imperial Commander declared himself rid of the shackles of the Imperium rule".
KamikazeCanuck wrote:"Upon a score of worlds, Water Caste envoys whispered long-rehearshed words into willing ears. The seeds of rebellion had long been cultivated, and now bore fruit as each imperial Commander declared himself rid of the shackles of the Imperium rule".
KamikazeCanuck Wrote Yes but I don't know how equal the "alien" races are. Surely they must exist in yet another caste and that caste could never be seen as being on par with the other 5 historical Tau ones
Any alien races have nothing to do with the Castes. Castes are a Tau thing and are not related to any other race, as I and others have already pointed out. They don't even try to get involved in how other races rule their populations.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote I assume you mean thought. That's a little ironic considereing Etherals have evolved to naturall mind-control the other castes.
They still have more freedom of though than on imperial planets. It may be ironic but it's still true.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote No. You'll run your planet according to what's best for the greater good. In fact The imperium practices far greater tolerance in the way a planet is run. All forms of goverment exist within the Imperium: Theocracy, Communism, Fascism, Democracy, Anarchy. They don't care as long as you pay your taxes.
The requirements to fit into the greater good are very open. So far the Kroot contribute to the Tau military and thats the only negative that joining the greater good has bought. They recieved better technology, and protection. You can keep your culture and religion, which the imperium don't allow.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote Strives to advance technology period. Citizens may benefit may not.
Well in the times of peace what else do think they will do with it. he imperial citizens trade with the Tau for a reason. They have a far better standard of life.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote Depends how they feel that day.
The Tau policy is to keep casulties to a minimum. Whether the FW follow this is nothing to do with how good they are.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote What other cultures? There is only the greater Good a concept they hammer home every day.
The greater good isn't a culture The greater good is an idea and a target. The kroot have a culture and are part of the greater good.
1hadhq-
1. The IoM didn't try to be peacefull pre heresy. Lots of human civilisations were destroyed because they didn't view the imperium as having rule over them. Tau are similar but the difference is Tau let you keep independance.
2. The Orks, nids, daemons won't care and the Tau know this. There are however many much smaller alien races who do care. By including them they will help the greater good by adding new races who can contribute their strengths and potentially save the alien species. As for eldar you casn't be sure about them. They may join purely to reduce eldar loses, on the other hand they may try to manipulate the greater good. I am also sure from the example of humans trading with Tau that a lof of humans would care very much.
3. Free thought within the imperiums boundaries, sounds free to me
4. The planetary governers still have to follow imperial standards- No heretical tech, no other religion, no xenos
5. Oh i get it- After working a 20 hour day in the factories the citizens can go back to their cupboard sized rooms and watch censored entertainment, while feeling all happy inside, knowing they just contributed to the extermination of another species- right?
6. Yeah when you kill more of your own men than the enimies your doing it wrong. On the plus side innocent alien citizens make great target practice.
7. So there are a lot of cultures in the galaxy, ok so how does that make Tau any worse. All Tau do is allow people to contiu thinking what they want and worshiping who thy like (except chaos). Not everyone is that bothered by the emperor.
8. Right so fighting a lot makes the good- nah doesn't do it for me. If they weren't around all these things would be killing each other so they would still end up dead. If the imperium wasn't around they wouldn't be killing inocent peole so it doesn't really matter.
9. same as above
10. Yep and they are doing a good job too. Thats 15 planets destroyed this month.
11. great we all know how fun they are.
12. Thats a perfect example of long term planning there.
13. yeah because we all know how much we would hate to loose them.
14. Yeah and by doing that you created a very large group of rogue space marines. Oh and aren't they the one who now worship chaos, yep thought so.
15. So your big?
16. Ok and we can communicate without killing 1000 people a day to do it.
17. Are they the psyker who end up summoning daemons if the up. I think we are better of without them.
18. Only just. According to GW you have been on the brink of destruction for 10 milenia.
19. Our tech is still better than yours
20. Except when you see our shiny new peice of gear then all the nearby planets forget about the emperor and start being extra friendly.
4M2A wrote:You do have to look at the situation. I have said that I don't think Tau are innocent, they have killed people. Any perfectly innocent race is going to end up dead very fast. Instead Tau try to do the best they can.
Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures
This is what I could think of off the top of my head.
Agree in all points. Everything can be supported by official background material.
Nice to have a post based on facts, not on wild speculations obviously contradicting official background (grmlcastediscussiongrml).
1. The IoM didn't try to be peacefull pre heresy. Lots of human civilisations were destroyed because they didn't view the imperium as having rule over them. Tau are similar but the difference is Tau let you keep independance.
2. The Orks, nids, daemons won't care and the Tau know this. There are however many much smaller alien races who do care. By including them they will help the greater good by adding new races who can contribute their strengths and potentially save the alien species. As for eldar you can't be sure about them. They may join purely to reduce eldar loses, on the other hand they may try to manipulate the greater good. I am also sure from the example of humans trading with Tau that a lof of humans would care very much.
3. Free thought within the imperiums boundaries, sounds free to me
4. The planetary governers still have to follow imperial standards- No heretical tech, no other religion, no xenos
5. Oh i get it- After working a 20 hour day in the factories the citizens can go back to their cupboard sized rooms and watch censored entertainment, while feeling all happy inside, knowing they just contributed to the extermination of another species- right?
6. Yeah when you kill more of your own men than the enimies your doing it wrong. On the plus side innocent alien citizens make great target practice.
7. So there are a lot of cultures in the galaxy, ok so how does that make Tau any worse. All Tau do is allow people to contiu thinking what they want and worshiping who thy like (except chaos). Not everyone is that bothered by the emperor.
8. Right so fighting a lot makes the good- nah doesn't do it for me. If they weren't around all these things would be killing each other so they would still end up dead. If the imperium wasn't around they wouldn't be killing innocent people so it doesn't really matter.
9. same as above
10. Yep and they are doing a good job too. Thats 15 planets destroyed this month.
11. great we all know how fun they are.
12. Thats a perfect example of long term planning there.
13. yeah because we all know how much we would hate to loose them.
14. Yeah and by doing that you created a very large group of rogue space marines. Oh and aren't they the one who now worship chaos, yep thought so.
15. So your big?
16. Ok and we can communicate without killing 1000 people a day to do it.
17. Are they the psyker who end up summoning daemons if the up. I think we are better of without them.
18. Only just. According to GW you have been on the brink of destruction for 10 milenia.
19. Our tech is still better than yours
20. Except when you see our shiny new peice of gear then all the nearby planets forget about the emperor and start being extra friendly.
1. The HH disagrees. It was possible to bring a world into compliance without a fight. But it was up to the leader of the expedition.
Most of them soldiers. Send your fire caste to do the talking and we'll see how peaceful that ends.....
2. So the numerous races won't join. Now, those few just barely to spot minor races may contribute how?
Military strenght? Production? Must be culture then....
3. yep. But if youre dumb, does it matter if youre free in your thougths?
4. Standards are always there.
5. Have a cookie.
6. The IoM hits its targets. Remember, barrage weapons aren't intended to hit a single target precisely. So its not our fault if theyre standing in the path of our firing solution.
7. What? Can't worship chaos and still call that a free choice? The point i did try to mae, was the IoM consists of soo many worlds
its impossible to share a single culture and thus we have multiples of them.
8./9. Without the IoM, they have to focus on the few accessible targets...... bazillions of orks and nids fighting their wars on sept worlds,
lets see if they can improve the lives of the citizens too..
10. only 15? We did not so well it seems.
11.
12. nobody beats the administratum at planning.
13. maybe.
14. the traitors will be dealt with. But the IoM didn't fall. How many farsights can the Tau survive as 'empire'.?
15. people say so.
16. The IoM could also communicate in a small sector without astropaths.
17. Your choice. Sometimes an inbreed ability cannot be ignored.
18. But we will stay for another 10 millenia, as per the rulebook its our destiny to drive the darkness back. Sorry, you have to live with us....
19. in your dreams. The mechanicum forgot more than Tau could imagine. Our guardsmen have TL markerlights! HA.
20. Were not so easy to distract from your real aims. The Emperor is unforgettable. But IMO most of us are friendly. But extra?
Emperors Faithful wrote:First of all, there is the caste system. Etherals on top, with several different levels of Tau castes, then the xenos auxilliaries outside of this sphere. They don't even have a chance at political say let alone power. Then there is the fact that the Tau Empire is an Oligarchy run by the Ethereals, who quite possibly exert their control over other Tau through chemical pheremones. This flies in the face of Tau fanboys, like KrootHawk. However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures, which hurts Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.
You are confusing some things.
1.) There is the Tau race. It is organised into 5 castes due to historic necessity, as only the presence of the ethereals prevents the society to degenerate into a bloody civil war (Mont'au). This is a historic fact. The balance is delicate and no Xeno will ever become part of the Tau society as it is ultimately built upon and linked to the Tau race. The caste system and ethereal position has no meaning to a Xeno. While in principle the ethereal caste is ruling, the rule is very low key, as the day-to-day decisions are made by the other castes. Ethereals usually only decide on the direction. As they value altruism, peace and life, their rulership is mild.
Okay. Still nothing like a democracy though, which makes 4M2A's claim of Imperium fail at democracy even less sensical.
2.) There is the Tau Empire. For obvious reasons, ethereals have no rigid control over Xenos. For obvious reasons, due to low numbers, Tau couldn't oppress awhole sector even if they wanted. They don't want it as they want a union of autonomous planets coordinated by the altruistic ideal of "The Greater Good". For further information, I let the Battlefield Gothic rules speak for itself:
It is you who are claiming that the Tau consider their castes as seperate from the Tau Empire.
As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than
appreciation and friendship in return.
Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.
That sounds just like the Imperium. I will hand you that second bit though. Even though the Tau is advancing aggressively, they at least give others a chance at subjugation rather than annhilation.
3.) Kroot a mercenary race? What is a mercenary race? Ever seen a baby selling its killing skills to anyone? If you make things up, please use at least some common sense.
Come on. Are you really going to argue this? I really can't be bothered to explain this to you as you are obviously going to ignore and talk past it.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, we're just trying to debunk those Tau fanboys by pointing out that the differences between Tau and Imperium really aren't as large as you'd like to think.
Well, it is okay that you haven't read the Taros book and obviously other background texts on Tau neither. Most Tau-haters haven't. But (Tau-haters) making up stories, telling obvious lies in hope that noone will check and insulting people who actually KNOW the background texts is not a sufficient substitute for competence. And you will have noticed that I check all Tau hatemongering claims and prove them false.
Your high horse. Get off it.
1hadhq wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures,
unpleasant measures nice attempt to put on the pink glasses.
They do intend what they do. Nobody except their own leaders force them.
Like the Imperium?
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.
I doubt your faith good sir. Vostroyans failed him twice now. Dont go to 3.
Vostroyans got off a self-destructive bandwagon who was going to lose the game for all Imperials. If you want your blaze of glory, fine, but don't let personal issues with other posters direct your actions in a game. If you look now, your death has left the Vostroyans in a posisition of strength with the Eldar. The Cadians are the ones who actually hurt you, and they're looking pretty cosy with Chaos and Orks at the moment.
4M2A wrote:
KamikazeCanuck Wrote Yes but I don't know how equal the "alien" races are. Surely they must exist in yet another caste and that caste could never be seen as being on par with the other 5 historical Tau ones
Any alien races have nothing to do with the Castes. Castes are a Tau thing and are not related to any other race, as I and others have already pointed out. They don't even try to get involved in how other races rule their populations.
Really? I honestly can't see the Tau subjugating a race and them leaving those subjugated in charge.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote I assume you mean thought. That's a little ironic considereing Etherals have evolved to naturall mind-control the other castes.
They still have more freedom of though than on imperial planets. It may be ironic but it's still true.
Actually, no. Not if they're human anyway.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote No. You'll run your planet according to what's best for the greater good. In fact The imperium practices far greater tolerance in the way a planet is run. All forms of goverment exist within the Imperium: Theocracy, Communism, Fascism, Democracy, Anarchy. They don't care as long as you pay your taxes.
The requirements to fit into the greater good are very open. So far the Kroot contribute to the Tau military and thats the only negative that joining the greater good has bought. They recieved better technology, and protection. You can keep your culture and religion, which the imperium don't allow.
Actually, the Imperium does allow cultures to keep both their culture and religion. The only requirements are:
1# Pay your taxes (as Kamikaze wrote), either in Tanks, Munitions or Men.
2# Incorporate the Emperor into your religeon. They don't care how you view him as a diety, whether the natives view him as an ancestrial spirit or the more orthodox Ecclesiarchial line (as demonstrated in Faith and Fire, as well as the WH codex), so long as he is somehow included.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote Strives to advance technology period. Citizens may benefit may not.
Well in the times of peace what else do think they will do with it. he imperial citizens trade with the Tau for a reason. They have a far better standard of life.
True. Better standard of life doesn't neccesarily make them "gooder" though. Just more attractive *cough* subersive.
KamikazeCanuck Wrote Depends how they feel that day.
The Tau policy is to keep casulties to a minimum. Whether the FW follow this is nothing to do with how good they are.
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
Emperors Faithful wrote:That sounds just like the Imperium. I will hand you that second bit though. Even though the Tau is advancing aggressively, they at least give others a chance at subjugation rather than annhilation.
Repeat after me: "without subjugating them"
Again: "without subjugating them"
Again: "without subjugating them"
Got it?
No? Okay, again ...
EF- No it sounds a lot like allying and working together. This may be hard for some of the more fantical imperials to understand but sometimes you can work with someone without commanding them.
Okay. Still nothing like a democracy though, which makes 4M2A's claim of Imperium fail at democracy even less sensical.
No the Tau let you rule your planet how you like. You have the choice to run a democracy, just because the Tau don't doesn't mean you can't as a member of the greater good.
It is you who are claiming that the Tau consider their castes as seperate from the Tau Empire.
Not really. The caste system is tau culture, the greater good doesn't force you to join the tau culture. The kroot have no castes, and rule themselves.
That sounds just like the Imperium. I will hand you that second bit though. Even though the Tau is advancing aggressively, they at least give others a chance at subjugation rather than annhilation.
Yes that bit is similar. The differnce is small but very important. The Tau offering peace first is a huge thing. When entering the greater good you ally with the Tau but don't really join their empire. Unlike the IoM you are free to live as your species wishes. All that is required is that you help to improve live for the for the other members if you have the means to do so.
Come on. Are you really going to argue this? I really can't be bothered to explain this to you as you are obviously going to ignore and talk past it.
The Kroot become mercenaries for a unusual reason. They don't really have a warrior society, and they don't fight for the money. Becoming mercenaries is just funds the expedition. They go out into the galaxy and fight because their species would die if they didn't.
Actually, no. Not if they're human anyway.
Ermm yes they do. If a human disagrees with the imperium hhe must shut up or die. A tau actually has the chance to change someting. It may be difficult to get onto the Tau council but it's possible.
Actually, the Imperium does allow cultures to keep both their culture and religion. The only requirements are:
1# Pay your taxes (as Kamikaze wrote), either in Tanks, Munitions or Men.
2# Incorporate the Emperor into your religeon. They don't care how you view him as a diety, whether the natives view him as an ancestrial spirit or the more orthodox Ecclesiarchial line (as demonstrated in Faith and Fire, as well as the WH codex), so long as he is somehow included.
They are forced to hate xenos, they must loose any kind of technology which isn't approved by a organisation that thinks technology is holy. They must worship the emperor, in a suitable. The ecclesiarchy is very inconsistent. Their have been many occasions when they decide a religion is unacceptable even if it does feature the emperor. The religion of fenris features the emperor but they still got challenged and attacked. Being forced to worship someone who you think is a man will be very hard for some planets. it's not just saying yes I worship the emperor. The imperial religion is very dominating.
True. Better standard of life doesn't neccesarily make them "gooder" though. Just more attractive *cough* subersive.
But actively working to improve standards of life does.
This is also the Eldar policy. Your point being?
Eldar policy is to save Eldar lives above all others. They will try to stop human death but it's really not that important to them. They have a very selfish view of the world and view themselves superior to everything. This is why they are on the good/ neutral boundary. They will save lives, if it suits them.
KamikazeCanuck- No one has said that. Even the people defending the Tau have said that they do sometimes do evil things, the difference is they actually care about it.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Vostroyans got off a self-destructive bandwagon who was going to lose the game for all Imperials. If you want your blaze of glory, fine, but don't let personal issues with other posters direct your actions in a game. If you look now, your death has left the Vostroyans in a posisition of strength with the Eldar. The Cadians are the ones who actually hurt you, and they're looking pretty cosy with Chaos and Orks at the moment.
Topic?
So he admits his pact with xenos and calls those refuting it tainted...... Maybe keep it a bit more in line with the background 40k ?
Spoiler:
and for the other thread/game, the fact of guard beeing cosy with hopping around and reinforcing all day was clear.
What is to see is if game 2 corrects this. But yes, i've learned I should not rely on you. Silence instead of clearing things up seems your way to handle issues. Ok. At least try to get "traitor" and "tainted" correct in a narrative.
@Kroothawk: maybe repeat those designer's notes some more and EF will listen.
BTW, where are they from and who was the designer?
KamikazeCanuck- No one has said that. Even the people defending the Tau have said that they do sometimes do evil things, the difference is they actually care about it.
Actually sometimes human beings feel bad about the things they've done too.
Let me explain why this discussion has passed into the realm of collosal idiocy: If there's something that portrays the Tau in a positive light you guys will hold that up. But if something portrays them in a negative light, even if its on the same page, you'll simply dismiss that as imperial propaganda. So that's a conversation going no where fast.
1hadhq wrote:BTW, where are they from and who was the designer?
When the GW website still had content, it was custom to add designer notes for each release and keep them on the website.
They were plain for everyone to see until the website was relaunched as a pure webstore almost without content.
In this case, Andy Chambers, Pete Haines and Graham McNeill are listed as the authors of the first Tau Codex, so they are the designers.
Space Marine wrote:Youtube:Tau the least evil ha!
40k background: This planet was never under Tau rulership. PC game Tau scenario ending: This planet is under Tau rulership.
Nice try, but caught redhanded
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Let me explain why this discussion has passed into the realm of collosal idiocy: If there's something that portrays the Tau in a positive light you guys will hold that up. But if something portrays them in a negative light, even if its on the same page, you'll simply dismiss that as imperial propaganda. So that's a conversation going no where fast.
I think the discussion is so weird because one side doesn't know the background, doesn't care, lightheartedly produces some insults (e.g. by adding a negation to an official statement -> "Tau do subjugate" or by posting the first insult they can imagine -> "damn communists" in USA or "bloody nazis" in Europe ). They never care to give evidence, because they haven't read any background texts or know that there is no evidence. This makes Tau threads always an unbalanced discussion. But sniffing at my ethereal's socks, I keep cool and disprove all false statements.
1hadhq wrote:
Maybe take FF as an example of contributing to a thread?
Wow, that was unexpected, Thanks for the compliment 1hadhq.
@EF and 1hadhq
Sorry, I didn't get back to your replies more quickly. I had some projects to work on and by the time that I got back the thread had progressed past the point of replying.
@EF, 1hadhq, Kroothawk, 4M2A, and anyone else participating in the discussion.
I have been scanning the thread and it now seem s to be going in a round robin. I think it might help if each person posts the reason for their positions without mentioning any of the 40K races/armies. Just state your position on the concept of right and wrong and then how you feel it should or should not be applied to the 40K universe. Once each of us has posted their stance then the conversation might moved past the Tau Bad, Tau Good, Tree Pretty argument and make heasway into something that might give all of us perspective and a greater understanding of the concept of living/dealing with a universe full of different sentient species.
I'll Start,
IMO, the concepts of good and evil is subjective and from a scientific viewpoint solely a human concept until we have evidence to indicate otherwise. This is the reason I have not voted in the poll.
Now as to applying our concepts upon a fictional structure/work, there are many variables that have to be addressed and it will help in understanding that where one will seek to impose the known quantity of human values there are others who will will eschew doing such. The real debate here is why we make the choice to apply our set of values or not, to what degree they should be applied, and the sub arguments of whether these values are solely a human concept and maybe whether they even exist.
As I said already, I belive the concepts to be subjective to time and circumstance and thouroughly human. Becaue the concept is a human one then the humans are responsible for bringing the concept of Evil into the Galaxy and have tainted the 40K universe with what they consider evil by judging everything that they encounter by the concept of good and bad.
I go second.
My position is the one of the designers of the Tau race.
A simple but comfortable position, as I don't have to make up false evidence to prove my point
@FF: Oh, but I'm having so much fun. I see Imperium, Eldar and Tau as the "Top 3". None are much better than the other in their own way. Eldar and Imperium being about equal, with Tau leading, but only out of a naive approach that is already starting to darken or was perhaps corrupt from the beggining (Farsight, Pheremone control ect). Personally I found the Tau "Too Good to be true".
@4M2A:
1. In regards to the games, are the BL books also confirmed as cannon?
4M2A wrote:EF- No it sounds a lot like allying and working together. This may be hard for some of the more fantical imperials to understand but sometimes you can work with someone without commanding them.
Subjugation (becuase there really isn't another word for it, apart from maybe occupation) is hardly capable of being called 'working together'. True, there are genuine cases of Tau allying with other races, but there are also cases where the Tau either bully or outright subjugate other species.
No the Tau let you rule your planet how you like. You have the choice to run a democracy, just because the Tau don't doesn't mean you can't as a member of the greater good.
Well, short of leaving the Tau Empire yes. So...just like the Imperium then?
Not really. The caste system is tau culture, the greater good doesn't force you to join the tau culture. The kroot have no castes, and rule themselves.
But they are a part of the Tau Empire, and I doubt they would be allowed to leave even if they wanted to.
Yes that bit is similar. The differnce is small but very important. The Tau offering peace first is a huge thing. When entering the greater good you ally with the Tau but don't really join their empire. Unlike the IoM you are free to live as your species wishes. All that is required is that you help to improve live for the for the other members if you have the means to do so.
Allying with Tau ussually means joining their Empire. Some species make pacts of neutrality, but you can bet this will only last until the Tau have the option to arrive en masse. Much of the time it really is 'Join or die'. The Imperium is more along the lines of 'Leave us alone and/or die'.
The Kroot become mercenaries for a unusual reason. They don't really have a warrior society, and they don't fight for the money. Becoming mercenaries is just funds the expedition. They go out into the galaxy and fight because their species would die if they didn't.
If there is anything that fits into the category of a Mercenary race it is the Kroot. Or the lecxhiquotl thingys.
Ermm yes they do. If a human disagrees with the imperium hhe must shut up or die. A tau actually has the chance to change someting. It may be difficult to get onto the Tau council but it's possible.
Utterly impossible for a Non-Tau I'm sure (there is absolutely no record of alien races having a particular say in how the Empire is run through the Tau council), and impossible to get a seat on the Ethereal council if you're not an Ethereal.
They are forced to hate xenos, they must loose any kind of technology which isn't approved by a organisation that thinks technology is holy. They must worship the emperor, in a suitable. The ecclesiarchy is very inconsistent. Their have been many occasions when they decide a religion is unacceptable even if it does feature the emperor. The religion of fenris features the emperor but they still got challenged and attacked. Being forced to worship someone who you think is a man will be very hard for some planets. it's not just saying yes I worship the emperor. The imperial religion is very dominating.
No. The Imperial religeon is very lax as far as religeons go (Tau having no real religeon at all can be considered an advantage here...or maybe the Greater Good counts). Heresy is a different matter, as that involves the dire threat of Chaos, something the Tau don't have too much experience with. Let's say the Imperium came to Earth. Would they side with one religeon (or introduce their own) and wipe out all others? No. They would send missionaries who learn the depths of the cultures and religeons, and encourage the populace to incorporate the Emperor as either the head of or a vital part of each religeon. Simply replace Jesus/Vishnu/Allah/God/The Holy Spirit or any of these with 'The Emperor' and the Ecclesiarchy views it as a job well done.
P.S. The Religeon of Fenris viewed the Emperor as a man didn't it? The Ecclesiarchy has never gotten on well with Sm becuase of this.
But actively working to improve standards of life does.
Vile xenos using subversive tactics as a means to an end. (Okay, you got me there)
Eldar policy is to save Eldar lives above all others. They will try to stop human death but it's really not that important to them. They have a very selfish view of the world and view themselves superior to everything. This is why they are on the good/ neutral boundary. They will save lives, if it suits them.
Reducing ones casualties doesn't neccessarily make a race 'good'. As Dark Eldar aim to reduce casualties (but maximise captures) becuase it suits them. Tau trying to minimise their casualties makes the no different from the other 'sane' races.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@FF: Oh, but I'm having so much fun. I see Imperium, Eldar and Tau as the "Top 3". None are much better than the other in their own way. Eldar and Imperium being about equal, with Tau leading, but only out of a naive approach that is already starting to darken or was perhaps corrupt from the beggining (Farsight, Pheremone control ect). Personally I found the Tau "Too Good to be true".
So, I take it that you are of the thought that it is ok to apply the human concepts of good and evil to a non-human species. Is that correct?
4M2A wrote:Not really. The caste system is tau culture, the greater good doesn't force you to join the tau culture. The kroot have no castes, and rule themselves.
In the Tau codex(May only be in the first codex)It is stated that one of the reasons that the Tau judged the kroot to be compatable is that they have a caste structure similar in some ways to the Tau's.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Allying with Tau ussually means joining their Empire. Some species make pacts of neutrality, but you can bet this will only last until the Tau have the option to arrive en masse. Much of the time it really is 'Join or die'. The Imperium is more along the lines of 'Leave us alone and/or die'.
Incorrect, the Tau have a standing policy of diplomacy first. A tactic that the Fire Caste accepts after the successes in the Damoclese Gulg Annexation. The Water caste accomplished peacefully in a single lifetime(20-40 years), what the Fire Caste admits would have taken many lifetime just to counquer, much less subjugate.
4M2A wrote:The Kroot become mercenaries for a unusual reason. They don't really have a warrior society, and they don't fight for the money. Becoming mercenaries is just funds the expedition. They go out into the galaxy and fight because their species would die if they didn't.
While it is true that one of the reasons the Kroot hire themselves out to fight is for greater access to a larger variety of DNA, the primary reason they do so is to gain access to technology that they do not have the creativity to develop themselves. They are great mimics but not creative, also, they trade mercenary dkills for industrially produced goods so that they may live away from the technology/city life that they blame for making them to weak to fight off the orks.
4M2A wrote:Eldar policy is to save Eldar lives above all others. They will try to stop human death but it's really not that important to them. They have a very selfish view of the world and view themselves superior to everything. This is why they are on the good/ neutral boundary. They will save lives, if it suits them.
The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's
focusedfire wrote:While it is true that one of the reasons the Kroot hire themselves out to fight is for greater access to a larger variety of DNA, the primary reason they do so is to gain access to technology that they do not have the creativity to develop themselves. They are great mimics but not creative, also, they trade mercenary dkills for industrially produced goods so that they may live away from the technology/city life that they blame for making them to weak to fight off the orks.
So the main reason is go get technology, the lesser reason is to survive as a race? They are called carnivores for a reason, not junk dealers.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@FF: Oh, but I'm having so much fun. I see Imperium, Eldar and Tau as the "Top 3". None are much better than the other in their own way. Eldar and Imperium being about equal, with Tau leading, but only out of a naive approach that is already starting to darken or was perhaps corrupt from the beggining (Farsight, Pheremone control ect). Personally I found the Tau "Too Good to be true".
So, I take it that you are of the thought that it is ok to apply the human concepts of good and evil to a non-human species. Is that correct?
There really is no point to this thread if we can't do so. *ahem* I think.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Allying with Tau ussually means joining their Empire. Some species make pacts of neutrality, but you can bet this will only last until the Tau have the option to arrive en masse. Much of the time it really is 'Join or die'. The Imperium is more along the lines of 'Leave us alone and/or die'.
Incorrect, the Tau have a standing policy of diplomacy first. A tactic that the Fire Caste accepts after the successes in the Damoclese Gulg Annexation. The Water caste accomplished peacefully in a single lifetime(20-40 years), what the Fire Caste admits would have taken many lifetime just to counquer, much less subjugate.
Still seems to be a means to an end, not a pure result of idealisitc doctrine. Besides, I wasn't trying to argue that Tau don't use diplomacy, I was arguing that refusing to join the Tau Empire (when offered) is not an option.
The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's.
I've seen nothing, no unit difference or anything of the sort that would suggest a different codex for every Craftworld is needed. I think the current codex (minus some imbalances/rules left behind) is quite satisfactory, as it allows players to truly represent an Eldar army from any craftworld simply from the choice of units. For example, Craftworld Alaitoc does have bikes, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld, you'll base your army around a core of pathfinders. Saim-Hann do have aspect shrines, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld you go with bikes, Shining Spears and other flying stuff. That said, I'm not a fan of seperate codexes for almost identical SM (bar one or two units) either. Although I would admit that SW are an exception.
(BTW, if I was to collect any Xenos army I would be all over Saim-Hann like a- like a...something that goes over something else very quickly.)
Kroothawk wrote:
So the main reason is go get technology, the lesser reason is to survive as a race? They are called carnivores for a reason, not junk dealers.
First, neversaid that they were junk dealers I said that they were merc's for hire. Wierd that you confuse the two.
Next, Get out your copy of the First codex and the White Dwarf that covered the Kroot Merc list. While the Background does leave a lot open it is said that the kroot trade their services for supplies but never mentions anything anout trading services to get at a greater variety of DNA. Your the one that insisted that we go off of established fluff. Your comments about the kroots motivation in hiring themselves out is pure conjecture from the established GW back story.
focusedfire wrote:So, I take it that you are of the thought that it is ok to apply the human concepts of good and evil to a non-human species. Is that correct?
Emperors Faithful wrote: There really is no point to this thread if we can't do so. *ahem* I think.
The point is to make your positions clear without mentioning any of the 40K races. This would give clarity as to what is actually being arguesd as opposed to the circular arguement that is currently happening. Once everyone make their position clear then go back to debating from a factional perspective with the clarity of knowing what your opponent is really trying to argue.
focusedfire wrote: Incorrect, the Tau have a standing policy of diplomacy first. A tactic that the Fire Caste accepts after the successes in the Damoclese Gulg Annexation. The Water caste accomplished peacefully in a single lifetime(20-40 years), what the Fire Caste admits would have taken many lifetime just to counquer, much less subjugate.
Emperors Faithful wrote: Still seems to be a means to an end, not a pure result of idealisitc doctrine. Besides, I wasn't trying to argue that Tau don't use diplomacy, I was arguing that refusing to join the Tau Empire (when offered) is not an option.
And I was pointing out that there is more than just the Fire Castes Ideology and the Tau's military is kept in chec by mutual need where as the Imperium uses a bueacracy divided upon itself to wage war against itself just to hold their military in check. Basically the humans do not know how to live without the presence of war.
focusedfire wrote:The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I've seen nothing, no unit difference or anything of the sort that would suggest a different codex for every Craftworld is needed. I think the current codex (minus some imbalances/rules left behind) is quite satisfactory, as it allows players to truly represent an Eldar army from any craftworld simply from the choice of units. For example, Craftworld Alaitoc does have bikes, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld, you'll base your army around a core of pathfinders. Saim-Hann do have aspect shrines, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld you go with bikes, Shining Spears and other flying stuff. That said, I'm not a fan of seperate codexes for almost identical SM (bar one or two units) either. Although I would admit that SW are an exception.
(BTW, if I was to collect any Xenos army I would be all over Saim-Hann like a- like a...something that goes over something else very quickly.)
Yet you support separate marine codices for armies that are essentially the exact same thing. The following are reasons why the Eldar craftworlds are at least as deserving of their own seperate codices if not more so than the SM's:
1)Each Eldar Craft world is its own seperate entity and answers to none of the others.
2)Each craftworld makes use of forces that differ greatly in comparisin to the others(Iyanden Wraith Army, Saim Hann Bikers, Ulthwe Battle psykers and Biel-Tan aspect warrior armies show a much greater variation in viable stand alone armies than the various SM chapters)
3)each craft world has its own seperate history since the Fall(Which predates the great crusade)
4)Fluff even has each craftworld with its own goals and steadily diverging technologies.
Now if they combine all of the separate SM chapters into one book and run just lotalist and chaos, then I would be content with just the Eldar & Dark Eldar books
Heck I'd be happy with the Eldar book if they just made each Craftworld viable and competitive again. If they went with differing FOC's depending upon the Craftworld specific HQ's while making sure each army was ballanced, viable and left room for generic lists I would be ecstatic.
Do you really think the GW will put that much effort into one book?
focusedfire wrote:The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I've seen nothing, no unit difference or anything of the sort that would suggest a different codex for every Craftworld is needed. I think the current codex (minus some imbalances/rules left behind) is quite satisfactory, as it allows players to truly represent an Eldar army from any craftworld simply from the choice of units. For example, Craftworld Alaitoc does have bikes, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld, you'll base your army around a core of pathfinders. Saim-Hann do have aspect shrines, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld you go with bikes, Shining Spears and other flying stuff. That said, I'm not a fan of seperate codexes for almost identical SM (bar one or two units) either. Although I would admit that SW are an exception.
(BTW, if I was to collect any Xenos army I would be all over Saim-Hann like a- like a...something that goes over something else very quickly.)
Yet you support separate marine codices for armies that are essentially the exact same thing. The following are reasons why the Eldar craftworlds are at least as deserving of their own seperate codices if not more so than the SM's:
1)Each Eldar Craft world is its own seperate entity and answers to none of the others.
2)Each craftworld makes use of forces that differ greatly in comparisin to the others(Iyanden Wraith Army, Saim Hann Bikers, Ulthwe Battle psykers and Biel-Tan aspect warrior armies show a much greater variation in viable stand alone armies than the various SM chapters)
3)each craft world has its own seperate history since the Fall(Which predates the great crusade)
4)Fluff even has each craftworld with its own goals and steadily diverging technologies.
Now if they combine all of the separate SM chapters into one book and run just loyalist and traitor, then I would be content with just the Eldar & Dark Eldar books
Heck I'd be happy with the Eldar book if they just made each Craftworld viable and competitive again. If they went with differing FOC's depending upon the Craftworld specific HQ's while making sure each army was ballanced, viable and left room for generic lists I would be ecstatic.
Do you really think the GW will put that much effort into one book?
Its simply unneccessary to split up the Eldar. They kept them to 2 codices, and as we hear about a DE relaunch and we will see how much GW invests into DE.
After this, there may be a debate if/or not GW should keep codices or split them. But now, we don't even know if DE are worth
the effort and I am not sure if the possible changes to the =I= codices are good or deserve to be burned as heretical.
Since a personal take on Good/evil is asked for:
No, i don't see a reason to ignore that good/evil is based on the beliefs of those involved and the time they live in.
Yes, i could apply my personal view on good/evil but I may recommend to accept that good/evil isn't the same worldwide on our
planet in our time. Yes, US and europe may be compatible in this. Still not identical.
So in their own line of thinking, none of the races of 40k will deem themselves evil ( don't throw in any psychological crap here, this is
sci fi fluff and not a arena to use your google-fu ).
Using my own POV, some could be part of the "evil side" of 40k. But as RPG fan, there is more than black&white, so I think
we got good - neutral - evil and a lot inbetween.
Good = poor citizen defending himself with an old lasgun, evil = dreaded chaos creature torturing said citizen for its entertainment.
Example for Tau: ( taken from their codex, sadly noone seems to like to cite this dex)
- Tau infiltrate another races worlds and start rebellions there.
- Authorities of these worlds react and war ensues.
- Tau = aggressor = not good
- defender = not evil
Good isn't undermining a neihbours community. Thats rather evil IMO. Bribing people to join is also not good. Using the absence of
military to attack sounds like a plan, but if you consider that a greater danger was the cause of the absence, this attack is a selfish
action and I for one would not help these Tau if the nids feel like fish is their new favourite dinner.
Looking through that codex, there is no alliance to contribute to a fight against nids, necrons,chaos....
so in the long run, Tau believe it is ok to reap the benefits of the eternal war but dislike to get their hands dirty.
Staying out of a galaxy wide struggle seems not directly evil but shortminded and I for one would prefer if they stood neutral
(like swiss) instead of backstabbing their neighbours. Sitting on the sidelines = not evil but also no point for good.
POW = neutral. POW in a gulag = evil. Not taking POW at all = a clean kill isn't evil, a mindless slaughter is.
Again, Tau codex has examples of massacres. PLus the bit of those refuting to join have to die.
Join or die = evil. Massacring instead of POW = evil.
Selfrighteousness => greater good => may turn into evil if going unchecked. Unquestioned belief => a mind to small for doubts.
Pointing out another races failures = doesn't make you less evil/more gooder. The opposite is true. Accepting the imperfection
would allow to cooperate. But anti- (insert name of race here) arguments get me the impression there are no arguments in favor of your army since you need to point at mine. Lack of quotes from codex = something is intended to be hidden. Hidden facts = evil.
Exterminatus against a world lost to the nids = neccessary evil. The same against a world not utterly lost to the living beeings = pure evil. Killing a leader to stop a invasion = neccessary evil. Protecting the civilians from alien invaders = good.
Need more?
IMO those without an idea of good evil may come off as least evil, the Humans,Eldar and Tau may not claim to be good as they know the concept of good/evil too well and should accept none of them is only good or only evil. Thus, least evil are the uninformed, then
I see there the everyone not willingly evil and obviously the top of the scala are the denizens of the warp as they are filled with all these evil thoughts the feed upon.
focusedfire wrote:First, neversaid that they were junk dealers I said that they were merc.s for hire. Wierd that you con fuse the two.
Next, Get out your copy of the First codex and the White Dwarf that covered the Kroot Merc list. While the Background does leave a lot open it is said that the kroot trade their services for supplies but never mentions anything anout trading services to get at a greater variety of DNA. Your the one that insisted that we go off of established fluff. Your comments about the kroots motivation in hiring themselves out is pure conjecture from the established GW back story.
Here the relevant quotes from the major official background text on Kroot, the "Index Xenos: The Kroot" by Graham McNeill, Codex Co-author.
By far the most odious habit of the Kroot is their practice of eating the flesh of the dead. In battle, this leads them to ritually devour the corpses of those they have killed, and almost nothing is beyond their tastes. The Kroot digestive system is extremely efficient, capable of breaking down almost any organic material into an energy form that can be stored in specialised organs scattered throughout their bodies called nymunes. Should anything inorganic and indigestible be consumed, the Kroot must regurgitate it, with considerable discomfort. However the strangest quirk of Kroot digestion is their ability to extract potentially useful strands of their food's DNA. Adeptus Mechanicus Genetors have long been aware that much of the double helix structure of DNA is in fact blank. Used to separate those areas that do contain genetic information. The Kroot have somehow inherited the ability to incorporate useful DNA codes into their own genetic make up. Larger Kroot, called Shapers, who have an instinctive understanding of this process, can direct their kindred to consume certain prey in order that in successive generations, they may take on elements of those genes.(...)
Further, less violent contact has since made with the Kroot; indeed some mercenary Kindreds have been known to fight alongside Imperial forces in return for weapons and food.(...)
However, not all Warspheres serve with the Tau fleets. On the contrary many Kroot Warspheres leave Pech every year taking Kindreds to mercenary assignments across the galaxy in search of valuable genetic materials to return to Pech to strengthen the race.
focusedfire wrote:The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I've seen nothing, no unit difference or anything of the sort that would suggest a different codex for every Craftworld is needed. I think the current codex (minus some imbalances/rules left behind) is quite satisfactory, as it allows players to truly represent an Eldar army from any craftworld simply from the choice of units. For example, Craftworld Alaitoc does have bikes, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld, you'll base your army around a core of pathfinders. Saim-Hann do have aspect shrines, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld you go with bikes, Shining Spears and other flying stuff. That said, I'm not a fan of seperate codexes for almost identical SM(bar one or two units) either. Although I would admit that SW are an exception.
(BTW, if I was to collect any Xenos army I would be all over Saim-Hann like a- like a...something that goes over something else very quickly.)
Yet you support separate marine codices for armies that are essentially the exact same thing. The following are reasons why the Eldar craftworlds are at least as deserving of their own seperate codices if not more so than the SM's:
1)Each Eldar Craft world is its own seperate entity and answers to none of the others.
2)Each craftworld makes use of forces that differ greatly in comparisin to the others(Iyanden Wraith Army, Saim Hann Bikers, Ulthwe Battle psykers and Biel-Tan aspect warrior armies show a much greater variation in viable stand alone armies than the various SM chapters)
3)each craft world has its own seperate history since the Fall(Which predates the great crusade)
4)Fluff even has each craftworld with its own goals and steadily diverging technologies.
Now if they combine all of the separate SM chapters into one book and run just lotalist and chaos, then I would be content with just the Eldar & Dark Eldar books
Heck I'd be happy with the Eldar book if they just made each Craftworld viable and competitive again. If they went with differing FOC's depending upon the Craftworld specific HQ's while making sure each army was ballanced, viable and left room for generic lists I would be ecstatic.
Do you really think the GW will put that much effort into one book?
First off, read the bold print. The only SM chapter that actually may deserve it's own codex is the Space Wolf Codex. This is becuase they are just simply too enourmously different from any other chapter and only share 1 or 2 of the same units.
1) Like the SM? (bar sucessor chapters perhaps)
2) Like the SM? (White Scars = Bikes, BA = Assualt Squads, DA = Termies, Salamanders = Flamer/Melta)
3) True dat.
4) Own goals? Yes (To ensure their survival). Diverging technologies?
Secondly, are you saying that an Iyaden Wraithguard/Lord heavy army is not competitive?
How about Warlock squad on Saim-Hann bikes?
A Biel Tan aspect warrior list?
None of these are viable?
1hadhq wrote:Its simply unneccessary to split up the Eldar. They kept them to 2 codices, and as we hear about a DE relaunch and we will see how much GW invests into DE.
After this, there may be a debate if/or not GW should keep codices or split them. But now, we don't even know if DE are worth
the effort and I am not sure if the possible changes to the =I= codices are good or deserve to be burned as heretical.
Was working from rant perspective that GW Failed in making Craftworlds come alive in the current codex. I liked the old Craftworld Eldar, yes CTM was utter cheddar and is not what I am talking about. I like the craftworld specific force org charts and feel that they could be done again in a balanced manner. Thing is, before GW does that they would split the book in order to sell more models with less production time invested in each.
As far as your personal take it helps in understanding your POV, thank you.
Kroothawk wrote:Here the relevant quotes from the major official background text on Kroot, the "Index Xenos: The Kroot" by Graham McNeill, Codex Co-author.
Yet the First Tau Codex speaks of the kroot as to having developed as far as they could technologically and needing the Taus help to procede further. It also sys that the kroot have reached the limit of their mutative ability to absorb differring dna. I can see that they move out to also get dna from fresh sources to help prevent stagnation but the background mentions that the kroot are mercenaries that will only fight to the extent that they have been paid.
This points to what I was saying before about their reasons being both. Personally, I think that trade takes the lead as to the fact that the kroot are space flight capable and could just go hunt for the genetic material without going through the process of waiting to be hired to fight.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
First off, read the bold print. The only SM chapter that actually may deserve it's own codex is the Space Wolf Codex. This is becuase they are just simply too enourmously different from any other chapter and only share 1 or 2 of the same units.
1) Like the SM? (bar sucessor chapters perhaps)
2) Like the SM? (White Scars = Bikes, BA = Assualt Squads, DA = Termies, Salamanders = Flamer/Melta)
3) True dat.
4) Own goals? Yes (To ensure their survival). Diverging technologies?
Secondly, are you saying that an Iyaden Wraithguard/Lord heavy army is not competitive?
How about Warlock squad on Saim-Hann bikes?
A Biel Tan aspect warrior list?
None of these are viable?
Sorry, the second thing I've missed today. Think its time to get my eyes checked again.
Also, I agree about the Space Wolves
1)More so
2)Much more so
3)Yay agreement
4)Biel-tan wants to resurrect the lost Empire and will declare war on anyone for touching a maiden world(Even other craftworld). Ulthwe's Goals are unknown, even by other Eldar, Harlequins just want to perform, ect...Each craftworld/group starting to get their own specialty units with unique natural abilities(Eldar tech is based of of organic tech) and weapons (Spear of Twilight, Eldrads staff)
As I said to 1hadhq- I just wish that they would bring back the seperate craftworld force organization lists where you could build lists that were craftworld unique. My complaint is that I feel that GW won't do such.
Eldar have viable lists and never said otherwise, just that they don't really reflect the craftworlds. Saim Hann is more than warlocks on jetbikes, currently the Biel-Tan list is more of a mech list and I haven't heard of Iyanden Eldzilla doing much lately.
The Tau want a empire of peace through the galaxy...with them on top.
The Imperials believe it is mankinds birthright to rule the stars- cleanse them all.
I'd say the Imperials are more moral here- at least they're being straightforward. The Imperials will genocide you- the Tau will control you. Die fighting Imperials or live under Tau boot? Gimme a flashlight
focusedfire wrote:
Sorry, the second thing I've missed today. Think its time to get my eyes checked again.
Also, I agree about the Space Wolves
1)More so
2)Much more so
3)Yay agreement
4)Biel-tan wants to resurrect the lost Empire and will declare war on anyone for touching a maiden world(Even other craftworld). Ulthwe's Goals are unknown, even by other Eldar, Harlequins just want to perform, ect...Each craftworld/group starting to get their own specialty units with unique natural abilities(Eldar tech is based of of organic tech) and weapons (Spear of Twilight, Eldrads staff)
As I said to 1hadhq- I just wish that they would bring back the seperate craftworld force organization lists where you could build lists that were craftworld unique. My complaint is that I feel that GW won't do such.
Eldar have viable lists and never said otherwise, just that they don't really reflect the craftworlds. Saim Hann is more than warlocks on jetbikes, currently the Biel-Tan list is more of a mech list and I haven't heard of Iyanden Eldzilla doing much lately.
No probs. You can blame my grammmah if you want.
1) True, no higher authority for them. However, apart from perhaps the Saim-Hann there is little to suggest an inherent rivalry between the Craftworlds as there is between many (if not most) SM chapters. It really can be argued either way.
2) How so? How is a Saim-Hann Bike army any more different from an Alaitoc Pathfinder than how a White Scars Biker army is different from a Scout based army?
3) Yay! X]
4) I agreed with you that there are different goals (although the Biel-Tann seem to be the only ones that believe in a resurgance while the others are content to scrape a survival together). However, there is only evidence of a reliance of different tech, not the personal development as such by each seperate craftworld. It isn't just Iyaden that utilises Wraithguard, nor is it only Ulthwe that has farseer pysker weapons.
BTW, I think an Exodite Codex would be very interesting. But maybe we already have that... (WHFB High Elves )
focusedfire wrote:Yet the First Tau Codex speaks of the kroot as to having developed as far as they could technologically and needing the Taus help to procede further. It also sys that the kroot have reached the limit of their mutative ability to absorb differring dna. I can see that they move out to also get dna from fresh sources to help prevent stagnation but the background mentions that the kroot are mercenaries that will only fight to the extent that they have been paid.
This points to what I was saying before about their reasons being both. Personally, I think that trade takes the lead as to the fact that the kroot are space flight capable and could just go hunt for the genetic material without going through the process of waiting to be hired to fight.
The background text I quoted is by Graham McNeill, one of the Codex authors and from the same time as the Codex, so I don't believe that there is such a statement in the Codex, pleace give a source. Andy Hoare's Kroot Mercenary list from the same time is BASED on the fact that Kroot haven't reached a limit of adaptability, but exactly the contrary. So with 2 of 3 coauthors writing texts contradicting your statement, I highly doubt it.
Again, the miniature box and unit is called "Kroot Carnivore Squad", not "Kroot treasure hunter Squad", because the eating of enemy flesh is the most important factor. The rules require a moral check, whether the Kroot eat their victims, not browse them for weapons. Yes, they want to survive as a race and they want new toys, but the survival as a race is dominant over the acquisition of new toys (that distinguishes them from today's mankind ).
Jihallah wrote:The Imperials will genocide you- the Tau will control you. Die fighting Imperials or live under Tau boot? Gimme a flashlight
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
Jihallah wrote:The Imperials will genocide you- the Tau will control you. Die fighting Imperials or live under Tau boot? Gimme a flashlight
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
(emphasis by me)
Doesn't stop them from dallying in the whole subjugation business. Just look at the Codex. If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
- Kroot: "...an age of cooperation between these two races began ... (page 14) -> no subjugation check - Vespids: "... trusted allies... " (page 16) -> no subjugation check - Smaller races: "Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return." (BFG rules) -> no subjugation check - Taros: just trading relations before the Imperium decides to attack and kill the Taros government. -> no subjugation check "For the Emperor" novel: Tau leave the Imperial planet -> no subjugation check - Other strong cultures: "Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties." (BFG rules) -> no subjugation check - Other races not wanting to join the Empire: "There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection." -> no subjugation check
You can assume, bet and speculate as much as you want: No subjugation found, only allies, cooperation, unions, friendship, benevolent help, mutual protection ...
It is a galaxy at war, so you have to fight enemies trying to kill you, but the Tau are the first to offer peace treaties to avoid bloodshed.
This discussion reminds me of China, who want to convince the world that the biggest threat to world peace is the Dalai Lama.
Kroothawk wrote:- Kroot: "...an age of cooperation between these two races began ... (page 14) -> no subjugation check - Vespids: "... trusted allies... " (page 16) -> no subjugation check - Smaller races: "Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return." (BFG rules) -> no subjugation check - Taros: just trading relations before the Imperium decides to attack and kill the Taros government. -> no subjugation check "For the Emperor" novel: Tau leave the Imperial planet -> no subjugation check - Other strong cultures: "Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties." (BFG rules) -> no subjugation check - Other races not wanting to join the Empire: "There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection." -> no subjugation check
Nice how a "snip" at the right place gets you what you want.....
Kroothawk wrote:
You can assume, bet and speculate as much as you want: No subjugation found, only allies, cooperation, unions, friendship, benevolent help, mutual protection ...
Now, back from the floor and seated again, Maybe we can accept the whole story?
Kroothawk wrote:
It is a galaxy at war, so you have to fight enemies trying to kill you, but the Tau are the first to offer peace treaties to avoid bloodshed.
And since the Tau act as agressors there, their neighbours have to fight them.
I don't need to speculate, but could bet a codex dedicated to a certain race and their allies that clearly shows the fanatical ideology
of the greater good as what it is, a selfrighteous excuse to conquer, so pages 10 - to - 15 of that codex, (still sold and not taken down from the GW site), should be enough to prove the lack of white on their vest.
1) True, no higher authority for them. However, apart from perhaps the Saim-Hann there is little to suggest an inherent rivalry between the Craftworlds as there is between many (if not most) SM chapters. It really can be argued either way.
2) How so? How is a Saim-Hann Bike army any more different from an Alaitoc Pathfinder than how a White Scars Biker army is different from a Scout based army?
3) Yay! X]
4) I agreed with you that there are different goals (although the Biel-Tann seem to be the only ones that believe in a resurgance while the others are content to scrape a survival together). However, there is only evidence of a reliance of different tech, not the personal development as such by each seperate craftworld. It isn't just Iyaden that utilises Wraithguard, nor is it only Ulthwe that has farseer pysker weapons.
BTW, I think an Exodite Codex would be very interesting. But maybe we already have that... (WHFB High Elves )
1)You mean the Biel-Tan?
2)I was talking more about the old Iyanden and Peil-tan lists. I know that there are similarities to the various SM chapters having bunches of Terminators or dreadnoughts but the Eldar go a little further in the weapons being fairly unique.
3)---
4)You missed the part where other craft worlds are beginning to think Ulthwe has become affected(Possibly corrupted) by constant exposure to the EoT. No one is really sure what Ulthwes goals are now.
Rumor has it that exodites will be in the DE codex.
Kroothawk wrote:
focusedfire wrote:Yet the First Tau Codex speaks of the kroot as to having developed as far as they could technologically and needing the Taus help to procede further. It also sys that the kroot have reached the limit of their mutative ability to absorb differring dna. I can see that they move out to also get dna from fresh sources to help prevent stagnation but the background mentions that the kroot are mercenaries that will only fight to the extent that they have been paid.
This points to what I was saying before about their reasons being both. Personally, I think that trade takes the lead as to the fact that the kroot are space flight capable and could just go hunt for the genetic material without going through the process of waiting to be hired to fight.
The background text I quoted is by Graham McNeill, one of the Codex authors and from the same time as the Codex, so I don't believe that there is such a statement in the Codex, pleace give a source. Andy Hoare's Kroot Mercenary list from the same time is BASED on the fact that Kroot haven't reached a limit of adaptability, but exactly the contrary. So with 2 of 3 coauthors writing texts contradicting your statement, I highly doubt it.
Again, the miniature box and unit is called "Kroot Carnivore Squad", not "Kroot treasure hunter Squad", because the eating of enemy flesh is the most important factor. The rules require a moral check, whether the Kroot eat their victims, not browse them for weapons. Yes, they want to survive as a race and they want new toys, but the survival as a race is dominant over the acquisition of new toys (that distinguishes them from today's mankind ).
(snip)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.
Yes, lets believe GW. Not, Hired workers. You quote from outside sources and I will quote from the original codex.
Page 11 Original Codex:
"They have two cerebral hemisphers one behind the other. The front hemisphere controls logic and memory and is considerably more developed than theother hemisphere, which governs imagination and creativity. Kroot interpret what they perceive and react accordingly, with little emotional clutter.The rear hemisphere is another mutation, it controls their inventiveness and imagination and has a very limited capacity. Whilst it is more pronounced in some Kroot kindreds, this limits the Kroots creativity considerably, with the consequences that they have gone about as far technologically as they are likely to go without the help of a more sophisticated people."
Next paragraph
"The Kroot have little capacity for further mutation without seriously destabilizing their DNA. They cannont therefore aquire every advanced trait they encounter or their variety will end, trapped in a single form that is a gentic dead end. Kroot Hounds and Krootox are examples of this error being made in the past."
Page 12 refers to the kroot violating the terms of annexation by saying, "It is theredore my conclusion that many Kroot still pursue thier old lifestyles as mercenaries outside of the Tau Empire."
Page 27 of the original codex is very enlightening on this subject. Like how you are confusing Eaters of the dead with the Mercenaries rule.
On that page it states that Mercenaries rule boosts the Kroots leadership if their employer buys them the armour save, while Eaters of the Dead was about whether the kroot were so hungry that they gave in to instinct during battle.
Also look at the side bar where it says,"The Kroot warriors have a strict code of honour, in return for support from the Tau Empire, supply large numbers of warriors as exclusive mercenaries."
Then there is the simple matter of the word:
Mercenaries-: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service.
The kroot already know how to kill and eat, eating battlefield dead is no reward.
Now what would be a reward to a species with little inventiveness but an incredible abillity to copy some other races inventions?
This is getting way off topic. lets go back to the human concepts of good and evil.
1hadhq wrote:And since the Tau act as agressors there, their neighbours have to fight them.
I don't need to speculate, but could bet a codex dedicated to a certain race and their allies that clearly shows the fanatical ideology
of the greater good as what it is, a selfrighteous excuse to conquer, so pages 10 - to - 15 of that codex, (still sold and not taken down from the GW site), should be enough to prove the lack of white on their vest.
You would be wrong in that assumption when looking at the original fluff. It steers clear of any subjugation and such. Instead, the thing that would most closely describe what you call evil is that the Tau portray the Imperialist British and U.S. concepts of manifest destiny. Before you argue that the concept of manifest destiny was purely U.S., I'd like to remind you that the concept had its roots in the british empire.
Now whether the concept is good or bad might depend on whether you apply a Darwinian model to the lifespans of empires. If you do such then an Empire struggling to survive past where it should by nature fall is the evil one for violating the natural order of things.
focusedfire wrote:Yes, lets believe GW. Not, Hired workers. You quote from outside sources and I will quote from the original codex.
Page 11 Original Codex:
"They have two cerebral hemisphers one behind the other. The front hemisphere controls logic and memory and is considerably more developed than theother hemisphere, which governs imagination and creativity. Kroot interpret what they perceive and react accordingly, with little emotional clutter.The rear hemisphere is another mutation, it controls their inventiveness and imagination and has a very limited capacity. Whilst it is more pronounced in some Kroot kindreds, this limits the Kroots creativity considerably, with the consequences that they have gone about as far technologically as they are likely to go without the help of a more sophisticated people."
Next paragraph
"The Kroot have little capacity for further mutation without seriously destabilizing their DNA. They cannont therefore aquire every advanced trait they encounter or their variety will end, trapped in a single form that is a gentic dead end. Kroot Hounds and Krootox are examples of this error being made in the past."
Page 12 refers to the kroot violating the terms of annexation by saying, "It is theredore my conclusion that many Kroot still pursue thier old lifestyles as mercenaries outside of the Tau Empire."
Page 27 of the original codex is very enlightening on this subject. Like how you are confusing Eaters of the dead with the Mercenaries rule.
On that page it states that Mercenaries rule boosts the Kroots leadership if their employer buys them the armour save, while Eaters of the Dead was about whether the kroot were so hungry that they gave in to instinct during battle.
Also look at the side bar where it says,"The Kroot warriors have a strict code of honour, in return for support from the Tau Empire, supply large numbers of warriors as exclusive mercenaries."
Then there is the simple matter of the word:
Mercenaries-: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service.
The kroot already know how to kill and eat, eating battlefield dead is no reward.
Now what would be a reward to a species with little inventiveness but an incredible abillity to copy some other races inventions?
This is getting way off topic. lets go back to the human concepts of good and evil.
The "hired worker from outside sources" is one of the Codex authors in the major White Dwarf article on Kroot hortlly after Codex release (yes, the "Index Xenos: Kroot" was an WD article same year as Codex, December 2001). Please read this official clarifications before making false assumptions. It was partly integrated in the Codex "Tau Empire" text BTW, another "outside source by a hired worker" .
In detail: Yes they are not very creative in technology, but they voluntarily gave up a higher level of civilization with big cities. So they take new toys, they take money, but Index Kroot and the new Codex make it clear, that DNA is the main reason. Again, please read the official Index Kroot or at least the new Codex on Kroot, esp. the part about genetics to fully understand how this race functions, currently you miss some important parts. The "next paragraph" is a short hint that not all mutations are welcome, that's why the shapers are essential for the survival of the Kroot race, Krootox and Kroot hound being descendents of the Kroot. The "Tau Empire" Codex is very explicit, that Kroot DNA is "almost empty" and has lots of room to integrate foreign DNA. Their variable DNA is their strength AND their weakness, as they NEED to eat diverse DNA to survive as an intelligent race, think of it as a culinary form of incest taboo, as it works quite similar. Always eating the same relatives and burgers would turn them into Krootoxen. If the Codex author says that the Kroot go out in search for valuable DNA, you should believe him ("On the contrary many Kroot Warspheres leave Pech every year taking Kindreds to mercenary assignments across the galaxy in search of valuable genetic materials to return to Pech to strengthen the race.")
I gave you the chance for an out, not my fault you didn't take it and end up gaetting upset.
Kroothawk wrote:
The "hired worker from outside sources" is one of the Codex authors in the major White Dwarf article on Kroot hortlly after Codex release (yes, the "Index Xenos: Kroot" was an WD article same year as Codex, December 2001). Please read this official clarifications before making false assumptions. It was partly integrated in the Codex "Tau Empire" text BTW, another "outside source by a hired worker" .
I read the clarifications yet White Dwarf's Kroot information was declared unofficial. Seems to be that you are the one operating under false assumptions.
You re the one that brought up official back story and when presented with such that contadicts your POV you try to declare that outside information that GW declared unofficial has more veracity in indicating what GW intended for its product than the official work released by GW.
You need to make up your mind on whether you want to argue the facts or just your opinion. Remember, the only source for 100% accepted backstory in GW's game are the codices.
BTW-Yes, the codex is printed by outside hired workers, but its content is determined by GW, no other entities just GW.
Kroothawk wrote:
In detail: Yes they are not very creative in technology, but they voluntarily gave up a higher level of civilization with big cities. So they take new toys, they take money, but Index Kroot and the new Codex make it clear, that DNA is the main reason. Again, please read the official Index Kroot or at least the new Codex on Kroot, esp. the part about genetics to fully understand how this race functions, currently you miss some important parts. The "next paragraph" is a short hint that not all mutations are welcome, that's why the shapers are essential for the survival of the Kroot race, Krootox and Kroot hound being descendents of the Kroot. The "Tau Empire" Codex is very explicit, that Kroot DNA is "almost empty" and has lots of room to integrate foreign DNA. Their variable DNA is their strength AND their weakness, as they NEED to eat diverse DNA to survive as an intelligent race, think of it as a culinary form of incest taboo, as it works quite similar. Always eating the same relatives and burgers would turn them into Krootoxen. If the Codex author says that the Kroot go out in search for valuable DNA, you should believe him ("On the contrary many Kroot Warspheres leave Pech every year taking Kindreds to mercenary assignments across the galaxy in search of valuable genetic materials to return to Pech to strengthen the race.")
1)The new Codex does no such thing. It dos not support your stance in any manner.
2)You keep adding the word official in front of an unofficial document. You can call the "Xenos Index" official as much as you want but it is labeled as fan-fiction in every case that I've found it.(Please, if you can provide me with proof of the Index as an official GW Source for background then I will retract this line in my reply) Again, remember that GW only considers the codex as cannon. They occasionally act like the black library is official but yet they keep letting people write contridictory back stories.
3)By not reading the first codex you missed where the reference about DNA being mostly empty space was in reference to "normal" DNA and that the kroot have almost completely filled up these empty spaces. In other words, the mutation was not the empty DNA but rather the ability to fill the empty space that is normally there.
In the current codex they changed this to the Kroot just have empty space and are able to insert DNA from what has been consumed into these spaces. Nowhere in the codex does it state or even alude to their needing to find other sources of DNA. Only resaon given anywhere in the codex is page 37 where it again mentions the Kroot as mercenaries.
Now the reason for the changes from codex to codex are unknown and can only be speculated upon, it could be that GW did not like the concept and use of the word mutation and was tired of answering whether or not Deamon hunters special rules applied or it could just be another 4th edition codex with butchered fluff and poorly written rules. Whatever the reason, there is still nothing in the official fluff past or present that supports your position here.
Mercenaries are those that fight for weapons and money. Creatures that fight for food are hunting dogs. This leaves you with a choice:
1)If you decide to accept them as mercenaries fighting for tech, supplies and wealth then you are supporting the concept of the Tau as a benevolent race.
2)If you decide to have them fight for the food that they already have the capacity to provide for themselves, then you are supporting the Tau as an exploitative race that is engaging in animal cruelty.
Can you explain why a Kroot background text by a GW staffer and Codex Tau author (Graham McNeill) in the White Dwarf two months after the release is just irrelevant fan fiction? In what way is a GW staffer an outside worker or can be discredited just as a fan?
The other GW staffer and Codex author, Andy Hoare, published the Kroot Mercenary list in the White Dwarf just 4 months after the release (February 2002):
Kroot evolution depends on their absorbing the genetic traits of other races, selectively inheriting the most desirable. They do this through eating specific prey animals to ensure that the next generation take on certain characteristics of that animal. Unfortunately, the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, as they have absorbed the traits of most of the creatures from within the Tau region. To collect as wide a range of characteristics as possible, they secretly despatch entire armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races in order to expose themselves to creatures and environments not found in Tau space.
The result is that each of these mercenary bands develops separately to the mainstream of Kroot society. When they periodically return to the Kroot home world of Pech, they bring with them a wealth of new traits to be absorbed by the race at large. These itinerant bands often appear radically different from the standard Kroot, having absorbed all manner of outlandish genetic data.
Another case of an ignorant fan posting stupid stuff in a dubious fanzine?
Remember, the Kroot list was GW tournament legal for years and therefore officially official on the same level as a Codex.
If in doubt, believe the people who created the race.
Maybe it is hard to believe now, but years ago, the WD actually had relevant content
1hadhq wrote:And since the Tau act as agressors there, their neighbours have to fight them.
I don't need to speculate, but could bet a codex dedicated to a certain race and their allies that clearly shows the fanatical ideology
of the greater good as what it is, a selfrighteous excuse to conquer, so pages 10 - to - 15 of that codex, (still sold and not taken down from the GW site), should be enough to prove the lack of white on their vest.
You would be wrong in that assumption when looking at the original fluff. It steers clear of any subjugation and such. Instead, the thing that would most closely describe what you call evil is that the Tau portray the Imperialist British and U.S. concepts of manifest destiny. Before you argue that the concept of manifest destiny was purely U.S., I'd like to remind you that the concept had its roots in the british empire.
Now whether the concept is good or bad might depend on whether you apply a Darwinian model to the lifespans of empires. If you do such then an Empire struggling to survive past where it should by nature fall is the evil one for violating the natural order of things.
At least we accept the name of the codex is on purpose 'empire' not gathering of best superfriends. I think the posted opinion i have adressed with that statement was deserving this reply. Since page 10 to 15 clearly go that imperialist route, use this gunboat policy,
even hint on undermining societys and ambushing anything not well defended. Darwin is irrelevant, except for nids, but the natural order of things never existed since the old ones tried to control the fate of the galaxy.
Consider the game down if the Imperium falls. GW needs it, and thus it is infallible.
If they follow this crappy darwinism, new races should show up every x-thousand years. Now imagine the nerd rage of squatting
dozens of codices each edition and releasing new ones instead ( but still with GW's copy-paste skill....).
Change doesn't work in a setup like 40k.
Since we have agreed upon concepts of good / evil, yes the 'manifest destiny' isn't good. ( I'll refrain from an example here. )
Imperialism and colonialism isn't good either, as it creates a lot of problems later. (see this little blue planet)
What is left then? The intend of an rising new empire alongside the common space orks, space elfs, space knights, space robots, space bugs, space demons, space troopers?
Ok, GW goes asia. Did welcome it first. Then realized how selective the perception of the fanbase is. Where others take the whole story
and live with the dark side/ lost battles/ not so compatible fluff, the Tau only see the positive.
Maybe C.S.Goto should write the next Tau codex. And put a nice Farsight vs Shadowsun in it. Civil war FTW.
Nurgle Chaos Daemons is the least evil. Read the fluff. They're all about life and laughter, hope springing from despair, inspiration in the darkness.
Beasts of Nurgle are just big, playful dogs. Nurglings are giggling children. Plaguebearers go about their accounting work chanting songs on their lips. Great unclean ones are loving fathers encouraging you to enjoy this temporary life. Nurgle's followers are granted immortality and immunity to pain. They live in a vast, lush garden teeming with life.
What's not to love?
Nurgle is most conclusively the least evil.
Trust in the codex...
Kroothawk wrote: Can you explain why a Kroot background text by a GW staffer and Codex Tau author (Graham McNeill) in the White Dwarf two months after the release is just irrelevant fan fiction? In what way is a GW staffer an outside worker or can be discredited just as a fan?
Ask GW, they are the ones that constantly break their own backstory and then rewrite said backstory in a similarly broken but different manner. Point is that GW has, in essence, declared most of the Tau/Kroot backstory as not recognized/unofficial. What is recognised is in the current(outdated) book which has a butchered backstory that is insufficient to provide a substantial basis to support either claim.
Kroothawk wrote:The other GW staffer and Codex author, Andy Hoare, published the Kroot Mercenary list in the White Dwarf just 4 months after the release (February 2002):
Kroot evolution depends on their absorbing the genetic traits of other races, selectively inheriting the most desirable. They do this through eating specific prey animals to ensure that the next generation take on certain characteristics of that animal. Unfortunately, the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, as they have absorbed the traits of most of the creatures from within the Tau region. To collect as wide a range of characteristics as possible, they secretly despatch entire armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races in order to expose themselves to creatures and environments not found in Tau space.
The result is that each of these mercenary bands develops separately to the mainstream of Kroot society. When they periodically return to the Kroot home world of Pech, they bring with them a wealth of new traits to be absorbed by the race at large. These itinerant bands often appear radically different from the standard Kroot, having absorbed all manner of outlandish genetic data.
Another case of an ignorant fan posting stupid stuff in a dubious fanzine?
Remember, the Kroot list was GW tournament legal for years and therefore officially official on the same level as a Codex.
No just another instance of the owner/creator edititing their creative property.
Yes they were accepted, and now they are not.
I accept that such was written in the WD, I just find it funny that you leave out the various mercenary remarks about them fighting for a greater variety of weapons.
Kroothawk wrote: If in doubt, believe the people who created the race.
Maybe it is hard to believe now, but years ago, the WD actually had relevant content
I do. I believe GW as to what the race os intended to be.
BTW- Yeah the good old days of when WD had content, msybe.
1hadhq wrote:At least we accept the name of the codex is on purpose 'empire' not gathering of best superfriends. I think the posted opinion i have adressed with that statement was deserving this reply. Since page 10 to 15 clearly go that imperialist route, use this gunboat policy,
even hint on undermining societys and ambushing anything not well defended. Darwin is irrelevant, except for nids, but the natural order of things never existed since the old ones tried to control the fate of the galaxy.
Consider the game down if the Imperium falls. GW needs it, and thus it is infallible.
If they follow this crappy darwinism, new races should show up every x-thousand years. Now imagine the nerd rage of squatting
dozens of codices each edition and releasing new ones instead ( but still with GW's copy-paste skill....).
Change doesn't work in a setup like 40k.
Since we have agreed upon concepts of good / evil, yes the 'manifest destiny' isn't good. ( I'll refrain from an example here. )
Imperialism and colonialism isn't good either, as it creates a lot of problems later. (see this little blue planet)
What is left then? The intend of an rising new empire alongside the common space orks, space elfs, space knights, space robots, space bugs, space demons, space troopers?
Ok, GW goes asia. Did welcome it first. Then realized how selective the perception of the fanbase is. Where others take the whole story
and live with the dark side/ lost battles/ not so compatible fluff, the Tau only see the positive.
Maybe C.S.Goto should write the next Tau codex. And put a nice Farsight vs Shadowsun in it. Civil war FTW.
1)Yes, we agree that they are Imperialists
2)I and History Disagree about Darwinianconcepts being irrelevent.
3)Disagree with the game being down if Imperium falls. Will agree that the Game ends if the story-line is advanced past year 40,000. It would be 41K.
4)By GW's Storyline, a new race or empire does try to arise every 10,000 or so years. and if they ever get a viably profitable chance to make the models obsolete, they will.
5)Never said that I agreed with your concepts of good and evil. I just now kmow from where you base your argumants.
6)Yet Imperialism is not necessarily from your POV. It merely exists as concepts that provide the impetus for various froups actions.
7)Yes, they intended the Tau to become the counter point and the idealistic reference point from which some of the ather races started.
8)Please don't blanket judge all as the same. I do not push the Tau as fluffy white(blue) saviors.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:...my point was you're using Relativism but explaining it in a long winded way. My stance is I don't like Relativism. Happy?
My point is that it is easy to criticize when not supporting a position yourself and claiming your stance is an anti stance of anothers position is no stance. You are hiding behind someone elses position on a topic.
I believe myself that the only 'good' team in the universe is the grey knights, they are pretty much the only beings (other then the emperor) that are uncurruptible by chaos. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I also believe that they sometimes disobey the orders of their superiors if they do what they think is unethical...
focusedfire wrote:Ask GW, they are the ones that constantly break their own backstory and then rewrite said backstory in a similarly broken but different manner. Point is that GW has, in essence, declared most of the Tau/Kroot backstory as not recognized/unofficial. What is recognised is in the current(outdated) book which has a butchered backstory that is insufficient to provide a substantial basis to support either claim.
No just another instance of the owner/creator edititing their creative property.
Yes they were accepted, and now they are not.
I accept that such was written in the WD, I just find it funny that you leave out the various mercenary remarks about them fighting for a greater variety of weapons
The WD articles were written as an integral part of the Tau release material, to flesh out some aspects that had not enough room in the Codex. Kroot have so much material and background because they were shortly considered to have their own Codex, but Tau won. There was no stop press background rewriting two months after the Codex release (and I am surprised that you use such weak and counterintuitive foundations for your argumentation). It is all a consistent background covered from different sides in all Kroot publications and well known and uncontested among Kroot players, so I am surprised that you are not aware of this. I think it was even mentioned in the "making of" article on Tau in the release month WD.
Were is the GW source that states that all official background texts on Tau and Kroot are wrong? All sources I know (and common sense) contradict that statement. Andy Hoare and Graham McNeill have developed a nice and deep background for the Kroot, that was published in waves to keep the interest in this new race alive. It is accepted by the Kroot community, it is supported by all texts (let's see the upcoming Rogue Trader background text for further confirmation). But you are free to contest this on the Kroot website: http://z8.invisionfree.com/KompletelyKroot/ . But be prepared to get several reactions.
Kroothawk wrote:It is all a consistent background covered from different sides in all Kroot publications and well known and uncontested among Kroot players, so I am surprised that you are not aware of this.
Excuse me, I think it is very odd that you claim to speak for all Kroot Players, as I have a friend who plays Kroot Mercernaries and has said nothing of the sort.
Ask him again about this passage in his Kroot Mercenary list:
Kroot evolution depends on their absorbing the genetic traits of other races, selectively inheriting the most desirable. They do this through eating specific prey animals to ensure that the next generation take on certain characteristics of that animal. Unfortunately, the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, as they have absorbed the traits of most of the creatures from within the Tau region. To collect as wide a range of characteristics as possible, they secretly despatch entire armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races in order to expose themselves to creatures and environments not found in Tau space.
The result is that each of these mercenary bands develops separately to the mainstream of Kroot society. When they periodically return to the Kroot home world of Pech, they bring with them a wealth of new traits to be absorbed by the race at large. These itinerant bands often appear radically different from the standard Kroot, having absorbed all manner of outlandish genetic data.
And where all his army adaptations are coming from:
SIGNATURE EVOLUTIONARY ADAPTATIONS
If you are fielding an army consisting entirely of Mercenary Kroot, rather than taking them as mercenaries for another force, then you may purchase a special Evolutionary Adaptation. You may choose a single Signature Evolutionary Adaptation for your Mercenary Kroot army. This represents the specific evolutionary path on which the Master Shaper has led his band, directing them to feed on specific prey in order to gain the characteristics of the creatures native to the warzones in which the band must fight. Choose one adaptation from the list below, and apply it to every Kroot in the army. Krootox and Kroot Hounds do not benefit from these signature adaptations.
It is simply impossible tp play the Kroot mercenary list and not being aware of this background, as it is BASED on this specific part of the background. Maybe he didn't tell you because he couldn't imagine anyone to question this. Talk to him.
focusedfire wrote:
1)Yes, we agree that they are Imperialists
2)I and History Disagree about Darwinianconcepts being irrelevent.
3)Disagree with the game being down if Imperium falls. Will agree that the Game ends if the story-line is advanced past year 40,000. It would be 41K.
4)By GW's Storyline, a new race or empire does try to arise every 10,000 or so years. and if they ever get a viably profitable chance to make the models obsolete, they will.
5)Never said that I agreed with your concepts of good and evil. I just now know from where you base your argumants.
6)Yet Imperialism is not necessarily from your POV. It merely exists as concepts that provide the impetus for various groups actions.
7)Yes, they intended the Tau to become the counter point and the idealistic reference point from which some of the other races started.
8)Please don't blanket judge all as the same. I do not push the Tau as fluffy white(blue) saviors.
2) You may disagree but history doesn't. Could depend which "history" we use tough...
3) the timeline is already at M41 But the power of the emperor keeps it at M41/42. Frozen time FTW.
4) who tried in M30? M20? M10?
7) Since they started with codex Tau and moved on to Tau empire, the intend of the first book is now the same starting point as the others
races have had, but the second book changed things to implement the neccessitys of an empire and therfore intend of 1st codex isn't
the actual official background of them anymore as a new codex replaces the old one.
8) Sorry. but the overwhelming mass of chants of blue/grey saviours got the better of me.
@KrootHawk: I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. I'm not denying the fact that Kroot eat their foes while on Mercenary missions, but (and this is what I locked horns with my friend over) I don't think that is the sole reason that they act as mercenaries. They fight for other races in return for technology which they cannot make themselves, eating the dead enemy isn't the pay-day itself.
@Kroothawk-Lets look at what it says about the Kroot Merc's in WD 265
Quote A)Kroot mercenary armies fight alongside a score of races across a thousand war-zones. As payment for their services these kroot often obtain weapons not available to them when fighting alongside the Tau.
Quote B)A Master Shaper rules over a mercenary band. He negotiates contracts with employers, leads his warriors in battle and directs their evolutionary developement. He will often be armed with the most valuable equipment available, bartered or looted from the many warzones his band has served in.
Earlier I left you a choice in the reasons for the Kroots motivations as to why they hire themselves out. The choice is important in that it deals with the threads topic and how your current stance on the Kroots motivations for being mercenaries contradicts your stance that the Tau are good. The choice was this:
focusedfire wrote:Mercenaries are those that fight for weapons and money. Creatures that fight for food are hunting dogs. This leaves you with a choice:
1)If you decide to accept them as mercenaries fighting for tech, supplies and wealth then you are supporting the concept of the Tau as a benevolent race.
2)If you decide to have them fight for the food that they already have the capacity to provide for themselves, then you are supporting the Tau as an exploitative race that is engaging in animal cruelty.
So are the Tau a good and kind race that assists less fortunate races or do they exploit les developed races by asking for everything from their allies while giving nothing in return?
You see there is a big hole in the fluff that I feel GW notced and scrapped because they were re-organizing the codex formats and because they knew that they were going to have to rewrite in order to make sense. Here is the back story problem:
Problem A) Backstory says that the Tau are technologically advanced, treat their allies well, value the kroots adaptive abilities and view them as equals in the Empire.
Problem B) Kroot Merc backstory says that the Tau don't face a large enough variety of opponents and that fighting exclusively for the Tau would lead to evolutionary dead-ends that would rob them of their special adaptive abilities.
These problem points create the following conflicts:
1) Tau face every known race in combat, which makes the reason to hire out to other races for genetic variety an unnecessary risk and creates a back story contradiction.
2) If the Tau are scientifically advanced, value the kroots abilities and treat heir allies well, "Why would the Tau try to force the Kroot onto a path of evolutionary stagnation where they will stop being an asset?
3) If the Kroot are already space capable hunters, "Why do they need to jepoardize their lives and precious dna in unnecessary wars when they can just hunt the animals needed for variety?".
Personally I can see these issues being recociled in the next codex by having the whole thing being a ruse and that the primary reason is that the kroot are the Taus intell for what happens outside of the Tau empire borders. Basically they are like Eldar Rangers in that they travel and acquire information.
1hadhq wrote:
2) You may disagree but history doesn't. Could depend which "history" we use tough...
3) the timeline is already at M41 But the power of the emperor keeps it at M41/42. Frozen time FTW.
4) who tried in M30? M20? M10?
7) Since they started with codex Tau and moved on to Tau empire, the intend of the first book is now the same starting point as the others
races have had, but the second book changed things to implement the neccessitys of an empire and therfore intend of 1st codex isn't
the actual official background of them anymore as a new codex replaces the old one.
8) Sorry. but the overwhelming mass of chants of blue/grey saviours got the better of me.
2)My point about relativism
3)Doh!!, Yeah it is stuck permanently in the teay 999.9 of the 40th Millenium. Don't know why I was thinking year 39,999.
4)Mankind set out to reclaim and reunite the human race at year 20,000-ish. This means another race(Eldar maybe) was the dominant power. Then around 30,000 Chaos rose up. In 40,000 it is the Tau emerging
7) The Tau are still written as Idealistic. The next codex will incorporate all the new fluff that is mentioned in the SW and 'Nids. Most of which seems to have the Tau getting there tails handed to them.(Not sure if I'm going to like the new fluff when it comes out.
8)No problem, they annoy the heck out of me, too.
1hadhq wrote:
Anidem wrote:The debates and discussions in this thread have move most of Dakka (and myself) into Accepting the Greater Good, as the Only Good.
at 31% integration into the empire, i think its safe to say Tau are possibly the closest thing we will ever get to a Benevolent race in 40K
Remember, don't judge all Tau players by the idealsts.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@KrootHawk: I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. I'm not denying the fact that Kroot eat their foes while on Mercenary missions, but (and this is what I locked horns with my friend over) I don't think that is the sole reason that they act as mercenaries. They fight for other races in return for technology which they cannot make themselves, eating the dead enemy isn't the pay-day itself.
Exactly, Not denying that they travel and hunt for fresh food sources, Just arguing why they chose to be mercenaries. They could get access to fresh food sources without having to hire out as mercenaries.
IMHO Orks are the least evil race in 40k. No plans to kill all life (Necrons), no evil gods (Chaos), no manipulations of "lesser" races (Eldar), no plans to eat all life ('Nids), no fanatical racism (Imperials), and no plans to form an empire (Tau). All they want is a good fight.
4M2A wrote:The imperium are constantly trying to take planets. When they ordered an attack on the Tau when they were still a young species there were no humans on the planet, they attacked purey because they hate all aliens.
Meh, we're not trying to take the planet, we're just trying to kill them before they try to kill us! I guess the Bush Doctrine is still alive and well even 40,000 years in the future.
focusedfire wrote:
1) Tau face every known race in combat, which makes the reason to hire out to other races for genetic variety an unnecessary risk and creates a back story contradiction.
Not to nitpick buuut the only major opponents over time that Tau have faced are Orks, Humans and (more recently) Tyranids. All conflicts with other races such as the alliance with Ultramarines against Necrons, the fighting on Medusa with Chaos (Don't you dare treat the Firewarrior as Canon) have been on a very small scale, perhaps only single meetings or battles. I can't recall any evidence at all of battles with Eldar or their Dark Kin. I'm guessing that the top three oponents simply aren't enough to go on for the Kroot.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@KrootHawk: I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. I'm not denying the fact that Kroot eat their foes while on Mercenary missions, but (and this is what I locked horns with my friend over) I don't think that is the sole reason that they act as mercenaries. They fight for other races in return for technology which they cannot make themselves, eating the dead enemy isn't the pay-day itself.
As the authors explicitely say: Saving the survival of the race is the ultimate reason for the mercenary missions, getting new toys is a nice and welcome by-product. And you don't intoduce yourself to Xeno soldiers with "Hi, I am Bob, I am a Kroot, and the major weakness of our race is our highly mobile DNA." Saying "Give us weapons and let us feed on our enemies," sounds better and doesn't give anything away, fooling even a few 40k gamers
focusedfire wrote:You see there is a big hole in the fluff that I feel GW notced and scrapped because they were re-organizing the codex formats and because they knew that they were going to have to rewrite in order to make sense. Here is the back story problem:
Problem A) Backstory says that the Tau are technologically advanced, treat their allies well, value the kroots adaptive abilities and view them as equals in the Empire.
Problem B) Kroot Merc backstory says that the Tau don't face a large enough variety of opponents and that fighting exclusively for the Tau would lead to evolutionary dead-ends that would rob them of their special adaptive abilities.
These problem points create the following conflicts:
1) Tau face every known race in combat, which makes the reason to hire out to other races for genetic variety an unnecessary risk and creates a back story contradiction.
2) If the Tau are scientifically advanced, value the kroots abilities and treat heir allies well, "Why would the Tau try to force the Kroot onto a path of evolutionary stagnation where they will stop being an asset?
3) If the Kroot are already space capable hunters, "Why do they need to jepoardize their lives and precious dna in unnecessary wars when they can just hunt the animals needed for variety?".
There is absolutely no contradiction if you fully understand what the authors say.
1.) Tau have no full warp-travel capability, so are limited to the Eastern fringe. Kroot have warp-travel. "Tau stay in the village, Kroot travel the world", so to speak.
2.) Tau don't subjugate the Kroot, so no forcing. And I don't think that the Tau know about the specific Kroot biology, why they have to eat enemies. To Tau it looks just like a savage tradition of a warrior class. And dissecting friends is difficult. Otherwise they would have noticed the second brain situated around the stomach, organizing the extraction of DNA (->Xenology).
3.) Kroot biology makes eating an exchange (or rather one-way assimilation) of DNA. Every human society has strong taboos for DNA exchange in too close boundaries (->incest), Kroot have the same for eating. Always eating dumb animals would make Kroot dumb like Krootoxen and Kroot hounds. Shapers know that very well. So they have to eat intelligent life forms. Many intelligent life forms don't want to be eaten by Kroot so fight back -> Mercenary missions perfectly allow you to kill intelligent life forms. These "wars" are necessary for the survival of the Kroot race.
But the above posts clearly show that both of you have not yet fully understood what the author's concept of the Kroot race really is. You really shouldn't blame or discredit the authors so quickly.
Azzeh wrote:IMHO Orks are the least evil race in 40k. No plans to kill all life (Necrons), no evil gods (Chaos), no manipulations of "lesser" races (Eldar), no plans to eat all life ('Nids), no fanatical racism (Imperials), and no plans to form an empire (Tau). All they want is a good fight.
At one point they where nicer than that, i forgot which race, but one of the elder races (waaaaay back, like Eldar old) created the Orks as a means to Combat the Necrons
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Not to nitpick buuut the only major opponents over time that Tau have faced are Orks, Humans and (more recently) Tyranids. All conflicts with other races such as the alliance with Ultramarines against Necrons, the fighting on Medusa with Chaos (Don't you dare treat the Firewarrior as Canon) have been on a very small scale, perhaps only single meetings or battles. I can't recall any evidence at all of battles with Eldar or their Dark Kin. I'm guessing that the top three oponents simply aren't enough to go on for the Kroot.
iirc in the Tau codex it stated that they had massive frequent run-ins with chaos, being that chaos hates the fact that they are (nearly) incorruptable. The codex entry further went to state that the Air caste has a massive fleet sitting in front of the warpcasm, prepared to defend Tau colonies the second daemons pop out from the warp
focusedfire wrote:You see there is a big hole in the fluff that I feel GW notced and scrapped because they were re-organizing the codex formats and because they knew that they were going to have to rewrite in order to make sense. Here is the back story problem:
Problem A) Backstory says that the Tau are technologically advanced, treat their allies well, value the kroots adaptive abilities and view them as equals in the Empire.
Problem B) Kroot Merc backstory says that the Tau don't face a large enough variety of opponents and that fighting exclusively for the Tau would lead to evolutionary dead-ends that would rob them of their special adaptive abilities.
These problem points create the following conflicts:
1) Tau face every known race in combat, which makes the reason to hire out to other races for genetic variety an unnecessary risk and creates a back story contradiction.
2) If the Tau are scientifically advanced, value the kroots abilities and treat heir allies well, "Why would the Tau try to force the Kroot onto a path of evolutionary stagnation where they will stop being an asset?
3) If the Kroot are already space capable hunters, "Why do they need to jepoardize their lives and precious dna in unnecessary wars when they can just hunt the animals needed for variety?".
There is absolutely no contradiction if you fully understand what the authors say.
1.) Tau have no full warp-travel capability, so are limited to the Eastern fringe. Kroot have warp-travel. "Tau stay in the village, Kroot travel the world", so to speak.
2.) Tau don't subjugate the Kroot, so no forcing. And I don't think that the Tau know about the specific Kroot biology, why they have to eat enemies. To Tau it looks just like a savage tradition of a warrior class. And dissecting friends is difficult. Otherwise they would have noticed the second brain situated around the stomach, organizing the extraction of DNA (->Xenology).
3.) Kroot biology makes eating an exchange (or rather one-way assimilation) of DNA. Every human society has strong taboos for DNA exchange in too close boundaries (->incest), Kroot have the same for eating. Always eating dumb animals would make Kroot dumb like Krootoxen and Kroot hounds. Shapers know that very well. So they have to eat intelligent life forms. Many intelligent life forms don't want to be eaten by Kroot so fight back -> Mercenary missions perfectly allow you to kill intelligent life forms. These "wars" are necessary for the survival of the Kroot race.
But the above posts clearly show that both of you have not yet fully understood what the author's concept of the Kroot race really is. You really shouldn't blame or discredit the authors so quickly.
I've known all along that I was talking to a fan but you are starting to come across as more of the root word fanatic. You are deliberately closing your eyes to valid points and are insisting that you have a much deeper understanding of the authors intent. What, you guys date while the material was being written?
Your focus upon the authors implied intent is blinding you to what GW currently recognizes and the direction that the company may be taking.
Yes the kroot merc list was chapter approved, which means that they no longer are accepted as a stand alone army. As to the back story with these materials? Well Gw has made errors before, I seem to remember that when the Harlequins hit the field against one certain army, that army would have to automatically pack up and leave. There was also the Chaos couldn't be fielded against the Tyranids rule/back story during this time period.
What you are not getting is that GW constantly abandons elements of back story that they find inconvenient and obstructive to their goal of selling more models. This covers why GW declared chapter approved armies no longer official. Going from the fact that they are no longer official then the back ground materials within these chapter approved lists can not be applied to the 40K universe.
Now if you want to argue origin rather than the Kroots current official position then there are the aforementioned contidictions. Also, arguing such ignores the direction that GW seems to be taking the Tau. Here, I'll reply to your points explaining.
1)The Tau originally had limited warp travel but has changed because GW is putting the Tau in conflict with all 40K factions. As to the kroot having warp travel, please show where such is stated within the Tau Codex. Heck, where does it say such in the Chapter approved list. Everything I can remember had the Warspheres as less capable than the Ork ships they were derived from.
Now if you take transportation to these other feeding grounds into account as part off their mercenary contracts then yes, the kroot are trading for Tech.
If you want to go with the kroot as fully warp capable then you end up with the question of, "Why the Tau are not using the Kroot as their navigators? Why aren't the Warspheres more battle capable?. Originally it was thought that the kroot warspheres were docked and transported through the warp by those more technologically advanced.
If I believe your version the Kroot who were stuck using black powder weapons are more technologically advanced than the Tau. Methinks that thy Fan-fervor has carried thee beyond the bounds of logic.
2)Using the Tau codex from the same time period that the Chapter approved kroot merc's list was published, it is clear that the the Tau knew that the Kroot need a variety of prey and that part of their deal gave the kroot the tech to acquire a greater variety. It is also inferred that the Tau have been "examining" the Kroots physiology. Also, the kroot wouldn't care if the Tau looked through a dead kroots remains, just so long as they got to eat it later.
3)First you argue greater variety then you use human sensibilities as to why the kroot hire as mercenaries. With your statement here, you are at best your contradicting yourself and at worst you are being deliberately obtuse. There are many planets that the Kroot could hunt and not come into conflict with other races. There has to be a better reason than "Need to Eat" for the Kroot to be hiring themselves out as mercenaries. The best argument for such is to gain acces to the benifits of more advanced tech.
4)Mankind set out to reclaim and reunite the human race at year 20,000-ish. This means another race(Eldar maybe) was the dominant power. Then around 30,000 Chaos rose up. In 40,000 it is the Tau emerging
7) The Tau are still written as Idealistic. The next codex will incorporate all the new fluff that is mentioned in the SW and 'Nids. Most of which seems to have the Tau getting there tails handed to them.(Not sure if I'm going to like the new fluff when it comes out.
4) The BRB sets the age of tech to M18-M23, so these humans explored and claimed the galaxy but did not reclaim it.
Age of strive followed, M23-M30, so the time to reclaim was the great crusade. taken from BRB, page 122-123..
Eldar had their chance after the C'tan gone sleeping and the enslavers died out. Seems they preferred to create a chaos "god".
As they were already a space faring race and strong enough to serve in a galaxy wide war, should an answer not contain a new race
for M20 instead of a wellknown one?
7) There is a chance in defeat. To learn to cooperate without controlling your partner. Tau need to evolve to stay, can't oppose
every other race as they would with the militaristic take in C:Tau empire. With threats like nids and crons, its harder to survive.
Mankind had to deal with orks, Tau got orks + Elfs + humans + bugs + robots + demons....
Maybe a mix of Farsight and Shadowsun will be the new route. Maybe a character dies ( C: IG ).
Anidem wrote:
At one point they where nicer than that, i forgot which race, but one of the elder races (waaaaay back, like Eldar old) created the Orks as a means to Combat the Necrons
Why should krork be nicer than ork? Better control may not make them nicer.
Back when the old ones ruined the galaxy in their fight against C'tan/ necrontyr,
orks and eldar ( plus some I dont recall yet ) were the figures on the playground so to speak. Both suffered heavily and the C'tan nearly
harvested the whole galaxy. The weapon of last resort of the old ones was to use the empyrean, thus screwing the creatures there and creating the things we know now as chaos. But the old ones didn't survive and the 'minions' weren't able to rule a galaxy.
The orks turned to savages, as their leaders died out and the Eldar were too drunk of their power to see the fall....
Orks respect only power, so they are only nice if you got more power.
OTOHwh40k orks are not evil like other orks (tolkien,..) as they lack evil villains to command them.
Sorry I jumped in late on this one, but I just wanted to point out: Every other species is bent on slaughter of others. Tau have a caste system and are born to serve. Evil commies. Imperials want to dominate and have everyone under their 'benevolent' inquisition, shovelling men to die by the million and exterminating entire planets of whoever doesn't pay homage to the Emperor. Evil self-righteous fanatics. Orks just want to fight. Evil bullies. Necrons and Chaos are obvious evil psycho killers. Dark Eldar... evil sadists. Nids just want to eat the universe on instinct. Evil stupid bugs.
The only one left is Eldar. They live in a free society where they are able to choose their path, if you want to be a warrior be a warrior, if you want to be a potter or a singer or a poet you can do that instead. They have no 'ranks' as we know them, just roles each play for the good of all the others as a whole.
They take care of their own, and really just want to be left alone to follow their paths, floating around space unmolested by all the insanity of the rest of the galaxy. They only fight to defend themselves, and although they manipulate others, it isn't to establish dominance, conquer, fight, or just killings sake it is to play enemies against each other so that, again, they can just be left alone.
Maybe that's why they are almost extinct. Hard to be left alone in a galaxy where everyone else is hell bent on war and conquest and all you really want to do (after the fall of course) is pursue your art.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Not to nitpick buuut the only major opponents over time that Tau have faced are Orks, Humans and (more recently) Tyranids. All conflicts with other races such as the alliance with Ultramarines against Necrons, the fighting on Medusa with Chaos (Don't you dare treat the Firewarrior as Canon) have been on a very small scale, perhaps only single meetings or battles. I can't recall any evidence at all of battles with Eldar or their Dark Kin. I'm guessing that the top three oponents simply aren't enough to go on for the Kroot.
Lets examine this for a second. By what has been published so far, the Tau have fough in major engagements against:
1)IG-Damocles Gulf and some other battles
2)Specific SM Chapters-Damocles Gulf and some othe battles
3)Orks-On Pech, Fio'vash and across the Damocles Gulf(Basically Every where)
4)Tyranids as covered in the new Tyranid Codex
5)More SM's as noted in the SW codex, Ultramarine Codex.
6)Have fough Chaos (Noted intheir own codex
This leaves the Eldar/Dark Eldar and the Necrons.
1)Both the Eldar and Dark Eldar rarely engage in anything lager than single battles that are timed to strike when they will cripple the enemy.(It was mentioned in the first Tau codex of Kroot killing and devouring a group of eldar rangers.)
2)It is usually accepted that the Tau have fought the necrons but there is no extablished cannon that I can think of.
3)The Tau "Assimilate smaller races. Either by negotiation or through force. There are most likely enough instances of where force is required to allow the kroot to thrive.
This doesn't take into account the Codices still to be realesed before the next Tau one. GW is pushing the Tau into an expanded position in the Galaxy. The stories do seem to indicate a darker period for the Tau, which flows into the concept of adding grimdark by watching the idealistic Tau suffer in the grim dark of 40K.
focusedfire wrote:I've known all along that I was talking to a fan but you are starting to come across as more of the root word fanatic. You are deliberately closing your eyes to valid points and are insisting that you have a much deeper understanding of the authors intent. What, you guys date while the material was being written?
Your focus upon the authors implied intent is blinding you to what GW currently recognizes and the direction that the company may be taking.
Yes the kroot merc list was chapter approved, which means that they no longer are accepted as a stand alone army. As to the back story with these materials? Well Gw has made errors before, I seem to remember that when the Harlequins hit the field against one certain army, that army would have to automatically pack up and leave. There was also the Chaos couldn't be fielded against the Tyranids rule/back story during this time period.
What you are not getting is that GW constantly abandons elements of back story that they find inconvenient and obstructive to their goal of selling more models. This covers why GW declared chapter approved armies no longer official. Going from the fact that they are no longer official then the back ground materials within these chapter approved lists can not be applied to the 40K universe.
Now if you want to argue origin rather than the Kroots current official position then there are the aforementioned contidictions. Also, arguing such ignores the direction that GW seems to be taking the Tau. Here, I'll reply to your points explaining.
So basically your argument is: "GW has made mistakes before and sometimes changed background -> all background texts by the creators of the race are invalid and only those facts selected or made up by focusedfire can be called true."
Well apart from being a non-valid logical conclusion, I wouldn't call this a non-fanatical approach to a discussion
focusedfire wrote:1)The Tau originally had limited warp travel but has changed because GW is putting the Tau in conflict with all 40K factions. As to the kroot having warp travel, please show where such is stated within the Tau Codex. Heck, where does it say such in the Chapter approved list. Everything I can remember had the Warspheres as less capable than the Ork ships they were derived from.
Now if you take transportation to these other feeding grounds into account as part off their mercenary contracts then yes, the kroot are trading for Tech.
If you want to go with the kroot as fully warp capable then you end up with the question of, "Why the Tau are not using the Kroot as their navigators? Why aren't the Warspheres more battle capable?. Originally it was thought that the kroot warspheres were docked and transported through the warp by those more technologically advanced.
If I believe your version the Kroot who were stuck using black powder weapons are more technologically advanced than the Tau. Methinks that thy Fan-fervor has carried thee beyond the bounds of logic.
Well, as you can't be convinced to read the Kroot background material and don't read this thread, let me help you with quotes:
Index Xenos Kroot wrote:While the Kroot have relatively limited warp-capable ships, their understanding of their workings is an innate one, believed to be gleaned from eating the flesh of Ork Meks rather than a learned one.(...)
Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It would appear they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.
The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded.
Battlefleet Gothic Rules, Kroot Warsphere entry wrote:Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot, warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It appears they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.
The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded.
Warspheres have a single drive running through their core from north to south pole and manoeuvring thrusters along their equator. These engines are reliable but very basic making Warspheres very slow. They are powerful enough to allow the Warsphere to land and take-off from a planet although the process is not elegant. When dirtside the manoeuvring thrusters will normally be used to bury the Warsphere.
Now tell me that the BFG rules are non-GW fan-products, that the authors obviously don't have a clue and that, because GW has made a mistake once, everything written in this book still on sale is invalid.
focusedfire wrote:2)Using the Tau codex from the same time period that the Chapter approved kroot merc's list was published, it is clear that the the Tau knew that the Kroot need a variety of prey and that part of their deal gave the kroot the tech to acquire a greater variety. It is also inferred that the Tau have been "examining" the Kroots physiology. Also, the kroot wouldn't care if the Tau looked through a dead kroots remains, just so long as they got to eat it later.
The old Codex mentions two different sources: One (Olyr'Ra, page 10) seems to know of the DNA thing even while not understandning the Warsphere travels, while the general Kroot entry says that most Tau consider the eating of enemies barbaric and hope the Kroot will drop that habit when more cultivated (so most are not aware of the necessity). Kroot need more diversity than found in the Tau Empire. And Tau didn't and couldn't provide technology to go further than Tau can (-> said warp technology).
focusedfire wrote:3)First you argue greater variety then you use human sensibilities as to why the kroot hire as mercenaries. With your statement here, you are at best your contradicting yourself and at worst you are being deliberately obtuse. There are many planets that the Kroot could hunt and not come into conflict with other races. There has to be a better reason than "Need to Eat" for the Kroot to be hiring themselves out as mercenaries. The best argument for such is to gain acces to the benifits of more advanced tech.
There must be a better reason than the survival of the race? BTW it should be obvious by now that they "hunt" other races, not some ducks and rabbits. And while they appreciate better guns and such, they seem to have no use for high-tech like vehicles.
As someone whom you discredited as a fanatic, I answered with quotes by the creators of the race. How about giving any evidence for your POV, if there is any. Esp. that every background text by the creators is invalid according to GW. Esp. when even the recent Apocalypse Kroot datasheet mentions the DNA thing and not fighting for access to new technology:
Apocalypse Kroot datasheet wrote:Kroot evolution depends on their absorbing genetic traits of other races, selectively inheriting the most desirable. (...) Unfortunately the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, so they secretly dispatch whole armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races to expose themselves to genetic materialand environments not found in Tau space.
Let me guess: Another irrelevant fanfiction by incompetent creators of the race, overwritten and made invalid by some secret GW documents that only you have seen
Kroothawk wrote:
So basically your argument is: "GW has made mistakes before and sometimes changed background -> all background texts by the creators of the race are invalid and only those facts selected or made up by Games Workshop can be called true."
Well apart from being a non-valid logical conclusion, I wouldn't call this a non-fanatical approach to a discussion
Fixed it for you. And yes, so far your conclusions have lacked validity in that you ignore the parts of your own chosen non-recognized source material that contradict your argument.
But please, continue to plug your ears, close your eyes and say Lalalalalala I can't here or see anything contridictory so it doesn't exist. The only reality is a codex not recognized by Games Workshop.
You see, I can admit when the material you've refferenced contradicts my position but I then move to the credibility of using such in the current debate. Your are arguing from a stand point that if it was once recognized as valid then its true. This is like saying Man once believed the world was flat so it must still be flat.
Kroothawk wrote:Well, as you can't be convinced to read the Kroot background material and don't read this thread, let me help you with quotes:
Quote from Index Xenos Kroot"While the Kroot have relatively limited warp-capable ships, their understanding of their workings is an innate one, believed to be gleaned from eating the flesh of Ork Meks rather than a learned one.(...)
Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It would appear they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.
The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded."
Ah yeah, I've read almost all of the back ground materials, not just the portion that suits my purposes. I have acknowledged when you have made a point but have been able refute most of said points as to being from sources that no longer apply to the game of 40K or its universe.
When the game of 40K first started, it was the fantasy game set in the future and had extensive material that supported such. GW seems to be, on many levels, divorcing the 40K universe from those fantasy roots. I can pull up source material from 10 years ago that contridicts current fluff. Which backstory do you think GW is going to say is valid?
While your above quote comes from one of those older sources, it does make mention of precious technology. So does the BFG below. As a matter of fact, in the BFG entry, it only mentions tech and nothing about acquiring DNA.
Thank you for providing material that makes my point.
Kroothawk wrote:
Quote from Battlefleet Gothic Rules: "[Kroot Warsphere entry]Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot, warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It appears they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.
The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded.
Warspheres have a single drive running through their core from north to south pole and manoeuvring thrusters along their equator. These engines are reliable but very basic making Warspheres very slow. They are powerful enough to allow the Warsphere to land and take-off from a planet although the process is not elegant. When dirtside the manoeuvring thrusters will normally be used to bury the Warsphere."
Now tell me that the BFG rules are non-GW fan-products, that the authors obviously don't have a clue and that, because GW has made a mistake once, everything written in this book still on sale is invalid.
Simple, with a few answerable questions
When was Tau portion BFG last published/updated?
Are there currently other Codices that have back stories that conflict with BFG and
Did you read the line I high-lighted above? Again, you provide material contradicts your position.
Thank you for providing material that makes my point.
Kroothawk wrote:
As someone whom you discredited as a fanatic, I answered with quotes by the creators of the race. How about giving any evidence for your POV, if there is any. Esp. that every background text by the creators is invalid according to GW. Esp. when even the recent Apocalypse Kroot datasheet mentions the DNA thing and not fighting for access to new technology:
1)Can you play your Kroot merc list at GW sponsored tournaments?
2)Is what you are referencing a Licensed GW product?(BFG is a liscenced product and it fails mention the DNA thing while it does mention technology as precious and needing to be protected.)
3)Funny, neither my copy of Apoc or reload says anything about the Kroot fighting for DNA. If your talking about the datasheet supplement, I have not read over it due to my currently participating in the Boycott. If you want to post all Apoc text covering kroot I will be happy to read over such. So far though you have been hurting your case with the BFG quote.
Ah, discrediting GW's Battlefleet Gothic rules as just licenced by GW to GW, that's inventive And boycotting the current Kroot texts in a Kroot discussion, that's a new one as well! Who is saying "Lalalalalala I can't hear or see anything contradictory" now http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180086_Tau_Datasheet_-_Kroot_Mercenaries.pdf Oh, and the background changes from 1st to 2nd edition completely invalidate the 3rd edition Tau Codex (which BTW is your only source), yeah sure
If you need all these obvious ad-hoc bendings of facts, logic and a boycott of all texts by the creators of the Kroot race, then a further discussion makes no sense. I have proven my point with quotes for everyone to see. It was answered by weird insults to the authors and me for everyone to see. Let the jury decide.
Kroothawk wrote:Ah, discrediting GW's Battlefleet Gothic rules as just licenced by GW to GW, that's inventive And boycotting the current Kroot texts in a Kroot discussion, that's a new one as well! Who is saying "Lalalalalala I can't hear or see anything contradictory" now http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180086_Tau_Datasheet_-_Kroot_Mercenaries.pdf Oh, and the background changes from 1st to 2nd edition completely invalidate the 3rd edition Tau Codex (which BTW is your only source), yeah sure
If you need all these obvious ad-hoc bendings of facts, logic and a boycott of all texts by the creators of the Kroot race, then a further discussion makes no sense. I have proven my point with quotes for everyone to see. It was answered by weird insults to the authors and me for everyone to see. Let the jury decide.
1)No attempt to discredit BFG. Was making point that it was an official licensed and produced GW product that argues against your point. Now who is being inventive?BTW, you might want to take it easy on the facepalms, it seems that you may have done enough damage playing football.
2)No, It was a simple statement as to why I have not read any of the new Apoc data sheets. Now pay real close attention, I'm about to do what I have done before yet you are unable to do the same when obvious counter evidence is posted:
The Data Sheet makes a point in favour of your argument.
Will you concede that the BFG entry makes a point for my side of the argument?
3)I believe that I have on several occasions pointed ouit that the 3rd edition codex is no longer a valid source. Have made it clear that seeing as you wanted to discuss 3rd ed materials it provided counter evidence to what you were using for 3rd ed relevant material.
Actually you are the one whom has deliberately tried to bend the facts by refusing to recognize the parts of your source material that argues against your point. There is evidence to suggest both. My original point was that they do both. You are the one insisting that no, they only fight for food that they could other-wise hunt.
BTW, your earlier point about them only going after developed sentient races is countered by what is in the new Apoc data sheet. Just an FYI
I don't see the tau as being a non-evil race simply because of their mantra of for the greater good. The tau may be more cosmopolitan than the imperium in that they take on allies and treat them as so called equals. They still have won't hesitate to wipe out any race that chooses to stand against being absorbed into the tau empire.
The orks are not evil in that they were created to do nothing but fight. They have no choice. They are like nature's way of making sure nobody is able to completely dominate the galaxy. The tyranids may fall into this catagory as well, but not enough is known about them to make that determination.
Eldar, on the other hand, strive to keep chaos out of the galaxy. They accept that they no longer are the stewards of the galaxy and have tried to steer mankind into filling that role. They represent the only truely free society in the 40k universe.
Kroothawk wrote:Tau have no full warp-travel capability, so are limited to the Eastern fringe. Kroot have warp-travel.
If I believe your version the Kroot who were stuck using black powder weapons are more technologically advanced than the Tau. Methinks that thy Fan-fervor has carried thee beyond the bounds of logic.
Battlefleet Gothic Rules, Kroot Warsphere entry wrote:Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers.
Tau Empire. 
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Say NO to the greater good, abhor the xenos. 
they bear the universe no malice what so ever , were just a huge menu to them !!!!
The greater good is an idea and a target. The kroot have a culture and are part of the greater good.
up. I think we are better of without them.
But if youre dumb, does it matter if youre free in your thougths?
We did not so well it seems.