19279
Post by: Pappa Shango
After a quick read-through the new edition of fantasy. A few of the biggest changes are:
MOVEMENT
Pre-measuring distances can be done at anytime. 
Perform manoeuvres,
• march doubles basic movement (though heavy cavalry cannot),
• wheel as normal
• side step (move unit to the side at half of your basic movement)
Charging
• Basic movement + 2d6 to charge meaning dwarfs can now charge 15” !!! 
• Charges are moved in the order the player wants
SHOOTING
Everyone shoots in 2 ranks and being on a hill doesn’t give you any additional ranks.
Blocks of bowmen with can now perform volley fire.
• Everyone fires in 2 ranks, the 3rd and 4th (and so on) fire at half there number.
• 40 Goblin archers (10 wide by 4 deep) can fire 30 Shoot bow shots
• Short Bow (Range 18” now)
No guess weapons you just place the cannon (before artillery dice), down and then work out distance bounced etc as normal rules.
MAGIC
Power Dice Poll, roll 2D6 that results in 5 and a 6 (Totals 11 Power Dice)
Dispel Dice Pool, the highest of the two dice.
Can only hold 12 power dice at one time,
No limit to the number of Power Dice that you can roll.
Wizards add their magic level to the dice roll.
Miscasts are only on Irresistible Force (Double 6), spell worked out as normal.
Afterwards the Wizard at best will loss D3 power levels, Worst goes pop with large blast template.
Army lists with wizards need to have written into them what Magic Lore they are taking.
Stops those tournament players changing from lore to lore each game.
All magic spells have attributes which are to either make it easier to cast spells or have a restrictions.
Fire Attribute If the target unit is already on fire (from another spell), you get an additional +D3 to the casting roll
Beast Attribute If the target is a beast unit or mounted upon beasts (warhorses, beastmen, etc) then its -1 to be cast
COMBAT
All worked out on Initiative order, charging units only get +1 to combat resolution.
No out numbering that causes you to auto flee from fear causing creatures.
Great weapons always strike last though are still +2 strength, even for cavalry models.
Every one fights in 2 ranks, however only get 1 attack regardless of actual number of attacks. Mounted models only the riders do as the mounts can’t get though other mounts.
Spears allow the unit to fight in 3 ranks.
10 model wide unit, can fight in additional rank.
Meaning 40 Goblins (in its basic form, Command group, etc) armed with spears, 10 wide by 4 deep,
• 20 attacks (fights in 2 ranks),
• +10 attacks for spears,
• +10 attacks for 10 models wide.
• Totals 40 attacks
+1 Armour save is no longer gained through having a Hand weapon and Shield. You now gain 6+ Ward save
You only get 1 Armour save AND 1 Ward save. Not an Armour, Ward and a Regenerate Save!!
I know theres a lot of what other sites have put up previously but this is just what I picked up after playing the Introduction game in store.
 Empire (Though it is a Horde army its got the warmachines and firepower too) and Horde armies (lots of infantry) are looking to be on the rise as these will win a lot more games.
118
Post by: Schepp himself
I don't quite grasp the magic system, thanks for the confirmation, though.
Greets
Schepp himself
26570
Post by: Lorne
Wow, looks like I am going to have to learn a lot of new rules. 40k is going simpler, fantasy seems to be getting more complex.
5127
Post by: Grobrotz
So, there will be much armripping from models equipped with Handweapons.
17836
Post by: Ixquic
A big change you may want to include is that if you have a hand weapon and a "special weapon" (spear, halberd, etc) you MUST use the special weapon. So you will only ever be able to get the parry save if you have a hand weapon/shield combo and nothing more. I think a lot of people are going to overlook that rule.
14529
Post by: Erasoketa
I thought heavy cavalry was finally allowed to march. That sucks. Now I don't know what army grow, my 5ed Wood Elves or my 6ed WoC LOL
5323
Post by: Oxfordseth
Where does it say Heavy Cav cannot march? There is no longer a heavy cavalry classification. Cavalry with barding has a reduced movement but it can still march.
Unless I'm missing something, but I looked under cavalry, marching and barding.
6300
Post by: Korthu
Pappa Shango wrote:
Can only hold 12 power dice at one time,
No limit to the number of Power Dice that you can roll.
COMBAT
Every one fights in 2 ranks, however only get 1 attack regardless of actual number of attacks. Mounted models only the riders do as the mounts can’t get though other mounts.
Spears allow the unit to fight in 3 ranks.
10 model wide unit, can fight in additional rank.
Meaning 40 Goblins (in its basic form, Command group, etc) armed with spears, 10 wide by 4 deep,
• 20 attacks (fights in 2 ranks),
• +10 attacks for spears,
• +10 attacks for 10 models wide.
• Totals 40 attacks
You can only roll a maximum of 6 dice to cast or dispell a spell. Dispell scrolls work the same as before.
The 12 dice limit is the same for dispell dice.
Fighting in extra ranks for spears and horde only count if you don't charge. Good on the defense but not the attack.
The maximum armour save is 1+, no 0 or -1 saves.
Didn't see that heavy cav or Chariots(!) can't march. Humm, chariots....
-K
26531
Post by: VikingScott
If heavy cav can't march then my empire army is screwed.
Oh and the cannon rules make it too easy for a cannon to kill stuff. And I am an empire player saying this.
Random charge= bad too.
Would rather stick to reliable double regular movement.
26570
Post by: Lorne
Yes but now you either keep it safe and get up close before charging or you take the chance and possibly take a charge.
26531
Post by: VikingScott
@OP
Could you outline the differences in failed charges please?
958
Post by: mikhaila
VikingScott wrote:If heavy cav can't march then my empire army is screwed.
Oh and the cannon rules make it too easy for a cannon to kill stuff. And I am an empire player saying this.
Random charge= bad too.
Would rather stick to reliable double regular movement.
Cav can march. No change.
Charge distance isn't nearly as random as people make it out to be. You can premeasure and know exactly how far away you are, and you get your normal move plus 2d6. So it comes down to making a decision if the 2d6 is going to make up the difference between your normal move and the total distance.
It also means your opponent doesn't know if you can get the charge off. Needing to roll a 10 is a big risk, but do you put that unit of archers that close, just in case he can actually do it? The game is less chess, and more about taking risks and planning around the risks.
26531
Post by: VikingScott
mikhaila wrote:VikingScott wrote:If heavy cav can't march then my empire army is screwed.
Oh and the cannon rules make it too easy for a cannon to kill stuff. And I am an empire player saying this.
Random charge= bad too.
Would rather stick to reliable double regular movement.
Cav can march. No change.
Charge distance isn't nearly as random as people make it out to be. You can premeasure and know exactly how far away you are, and you get your normal move plus 2d6. So it comes down to making a decision if the 2d6 is going to make up the difference between your normal move and the total distance.
It also means your opponent doesn't know if you can get the charge off. Needing to roll a 10 is a big risk, but do you put that unit of archers that close, just in case he can actually do it? The game is less chess, and more about taking risks and planning around the risks.
I forgot about the premeasuring. Thanks for the reminder.
And now i think about it i guess i agree with you.
Do you have the 8th rulebook? If you do can you tell me if there is any differences with failed charges?
186
Post by: GrimTeef
These changes sound interesting. Makes me glad I'm only really looking at starting Fantasy now, so I won't be confused about any older rules.
Considering that I am going to be playing Orcs and Gobbos, a lot of these rules are really making me rethink how I want to arm my troops. A 40-strong speargobbo unit wouldn't be too expensive to have and would be intimidating to charge because of all those attacks. Attackin in Initiative order wouldn't be as negative a change if you just hold and let the enemy hit you - then they have to survive 30 to 40 something attacks back. Yeah, they're gobbo attacks, but even at 30+ attacks you'll do something.
26570
Post by: Lorne
From what I remember it is still the same. I ment if you fail you are that much closer and more likely to get charged.
30500
Post by: Pip
VikingScott wrote:Do you have the 8th rulebook? If you do can you tell me if there is any differences with failed charges?
Failed charges only move as far as the best dice you rolled for your charge distance. So cav who roll 3 dice and discard the lowest can make it only 1" on a failed charge.
23451
Post by: Sheck2
Pappa Shango wrote:After a quick read-through the new edition of fantasy. A few of the biggest changes are:
COMBAT
...however only get 1 attack regardless of actual number of attacks...
How does this work with special rules i.e...
* Do you still get +1 attack from fighting w/ two wpns?
* Do characters/champions still get their two attacks (if in their profile)?
* Do magic items that give +1 attacks still work?
30500
Post by: Pip
Sheck2 wrote:How does this work with special rules i.e...
* Do you still get +1 attack from fighting w/ two wpns?
* Do characters/champions still get their two attacks (if in their profile)?
* Do magic items that give +1 attacks still work?
It was badly worded in the OP.
The front rank still gets all of its attacks. All ranks after the first only get 1 attack, no bonus for an extra hand weapon or having more base attacks.
621
Post by: Lowinor
6+ always wounds, regardless of S and T. Noticed that flipping through the book last night.
2889
Post by: Jin
Question, since I haven't had a chance to see the new book yet:
Is the rumored change that ASF + Higher Initiative lets you re-roll "To-Hits" confirmed?
18364
Post by: Little lord Fauntleroy
Pappa Shango wrote:
Pre-measuring distances can be done at anytime.
Well there goes the neighbourhood.
10575
Post by: vonjankmon
So the only benefit to charging now is a +1 on the combat res? Someone confirm this for me? Because if so, frankly charging becomes all but worthless, especially with two large blocks fighting.
Undead are getting screwed big time by this change.
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
What happens if you fail a charge? How far do you move? Can you charge if you are 'clearly' out of range?
29408
Post by: Melissia
Huh, I might get into WFB with these changes. Looks promising...
2889
Post by: Jin
George Spiggott wrote:What happens if you fail a charge? How far do you move? Can you charge if you are 'clearly' out of range?
You move merely the highest of the 2D6 that you rolled, I believe.
5323
Post by: Oxfordseth
Yes,
ASF + Higher initiative WILL let you re-roll misses.
2889
Post by: Jin
Thanks for the confirmation, Oxfordseth.
4661
Post by: Minsc
GrimTeef wrote:These changes sound interesting. Makes me glad I'm only really looking at starting Fantasy now, so I won't be confused about any older rules.
Considering that I am going to be playing Orcs and Gobbos, a lot of these rules are really making me rethink how I want to arm my troops. A 40-strong speargobbo unit wouldn't be too expensive to have and would be intimidating to charge because of all those attacks. Attackin in Initiative order wouldn't be as negative a change if you just hold and let the enemy hit you - then they have to survive 30 to 40 something attacks back. Yeah, they're gobbo attacks, but even at 30+ attacks you'll do something.
Just a heads up not to believe it as much "cheese" as other people make it out to be. 40 Spear attacks = 20 hits, 10 wounds, 5.5 (so about 6) wounds after saves, on a WS<4, T3, Light Armor / Shield unit (when you include Parry too). It's... not that much of a good thing. It's decent considering you just doubled the wounds from last edition, but after a few trial runs most enemies won't fear it barring you being a dice demon (Yes, I am still pissed that my long range skirmishing character in hard cover was hit no less than seven times and wounded five by 12 handgunner shots).
6300
Post by: Korthu
Failed charge = Move the Lowest die rolled. There is an example in the book showing this.
ASF = If Initiative is equal to or higher than opponent, then re-roll failed to hit rolls. If both sides have ASF, then go at Initiative, and if Initiative is the same, they strike at the same time.
-K
11558
Post by: Uriels_Flame
Would someone just tell me if my TK chariot army just got shafted or not? Man, I need to get a hold of that book...
10575
Post by: vonjankmon
I think the TK chariot charge surviving will depend on whether impact hits still work as before. The whole striking on initiative will make them a bit weaker but most of the pain from them comes from the impact hits.
Given the information here I think I will need to drastically change my TK around.
28930
Post by: Spookymancer
ASF still works as it did before but great weapons have been given Always strikes last special rule so with White Lions and Swordmasters the ASF and ASL cancel each other out (This is directly mentioned in the new rule book) and they strike now in initiative order but do not benefit from the reroll to hits that ASF now grants.
Also Battle Standard Bearers are almost going to be a necessity as in 8th edition they allow rerolls to panic, break checks, fear and terror tests and every leadership based tests that one might have to do (Including stupidity). Combine that with the general's leadership tests that can now be used for stubborn and a big block of goblins within 12" of both of them and you have a nigh unbreakable unit that can tarpit anything in the game for quite a few turns. (I had a unit of Dragon Princes with my mounted lord fight 4 rounds of combat against the goblins and just because they had more ranks than me they were stubborn and they were within the BSB and General)
Another big change that I am not sure if anyone has mentioned is that terrain has been changed so that there are no such things as difficult terrain any more. It is either open or dangerous to certain units. Forests no longer hamper movement for infantry however cavalary, chariots and one other type now take a dangerous terrain check when they enter the forest and on a 1 they take a wound no armor save. Marshes are identical to this as well.
The biggest change was made to magic and combat and miscasting magic is just plain brutal. You only ever miscast on a roll of double 6's and the new table it just death to mages. (My lvl 2 high elf mage killed 5 white lions in his unit and 2 goblin spider riders with a miscast and then killed himself when I rolled a 2. Strength 10 large templates hurt) Also there is no longer going to be single dicing spells unless they are considered bound spells as if you roll a single 1 or 2 on any dice the spell does not go off and that wizard cannot cast spells for the rest of the turn. This is the same if you fail to meet a spells casting value when casting magic so even though magic became much more powerful it also is a great risk to try for that 24+ casting value spell (of which there are many in the updated lores) so that he is not able to cast any magic for the rest of the turn.
There are a ton more changes and I had time to sit and plow through the rule book for 2.5 hours before playing a game with my brother. I do not remember every rule but I can answer some questions if there are some.
2889
Post by: Jin
Spookymancer wrote:ASF still works as it did before but great weapons have been given Always strikes last special rule so with White Lions and Swordmasters the ASF and ASL cancel each other out (This is directly mentioned in the new rule book) and they strike now in initiative order but do not benefit from the reroll to hits that ASF now grants.
See, I was wondering about that. I knew about the ASF and ASL cancelling each-other out, but that diminishes the worth of those two units a bit now.
23399
Post by: thunderingjove
I hate it. I have so much 40K Orks to paint, and here I am lusting after Fantasy.
6885
Post by: Red_Lives
So how do combat resolution and break tests work now?
958
Post by: mikhaila
Jin wrote:Spookymancer wrote:ASF still works as it did before but great weapons have been given Always strikes last special rule so with White Lions and Swordmasters the ASF and ASL cancel each other out (This is directly mentioned in the new rule book) and they strike now in initiative order but do not benefit from the reroll to hits that ASF now grants.
See, I was wondering about that. I knew about the ASF and ASL cancelling each-other out, but that diminishes the worth of those two units a bit now.
Somewhat, but with everything going in Initiative order, it still means that if my orcs charge your 12 swordmasters, your going to get 18 attacks, going first. A horde unit will get to strike back at you, and you'll take some losses. But any smaller units might just be wiped on impact.
21678
Post by: Karon
Exactly why you are FORCED to take bigger blocks now, which is why I upped my Gors to 24 strong instead of 18, you'll need the numbers.
I really am going to like seeing units of clanrats/NG's with spears 10 wide. Such an epic feeling.
4661
Post by: Minsc
mikhaila wrote:Somewhat, but with everything going in Initiative order, it still means that if my orcs charge your 12 swordmasters, your going to get 18 attacks, going first. A horde unit will get to strike back at you, and you'll take some losses. But any smaller units might just be wiped on impact.
I actually wouldn't use Horde against Sword masters, as you don't get any extra attacks past the seven wide (well, beyond the third rank) and - depending on the unit size - arguably lose more faster with them Horde-formation.
Example: Two units thirty big [by the time they reach combat] fight the Great Swords. One is ten wide, and has two full ranks after the first. The other is seven wide, and has three full ranks after the first plus two people lounging in the back. Each takes ten casualties, so 33% casualties. Now, the first unit lost a single rank, but seven attacks to boot. The second unit is down the last two models, one full rank, and three of the models in another. Each gets the same number of attacks now.
Don't get me wrong, in this case horde- sized units (see: Any big enough to take advantage of that rule) will do superior to the smaller units (If that unit was 26 or less models when it reached combat, the 7-wide unit would have lost attacks too). Then again, you also have the problem of having picked a 25mm combat unit against a 20mm elite one: Something 20mm in general (or, especially, 20mm and Elite) would have benefitted from the Horde in a theoretical formation much more readily than an eight-wide unit. It also is working off me saying the Orcs would "only" be 30 big when they reach combat: If you're going to try getting the max attacks from Horde, you really need to make sure you keep all those models intact with padding by the time you reach combat. Don't buy Horde formations 30-big for non-spearmen: Take 40-50. Don't take Spear Elves 24 big: Take them 30-36.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
Red_Lives wrote:So how do combat resolution and break tests work now?
Work essentially the same, except new modifiers (and old ones gone). No more outnumbering, for instance. And now charging is +1. But generally the same.
13512
Post by: Jon Garrett
Is the no more than 25% for lords, Specials and Rares and no less than 25% for Core actually in the book? It's something that makes me nervous...
17645
Post by: TheFirstBorn
its 25% lords, 25% core, 50% special and 25% rare.
Also you are unable to have more than 3 duplicate special units, under 3k games.
24910
Post by: the chaos guy
Is it 25% lords and heroes or 25% lords and no restrition on heroes?
17645
Post by: TheFirstBorn
25% lords and heroes, forgot about heroes :p
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Big change - you cannot move within 1" of ANY unit unless charging - this includes friends.
Also True LOS is used, no more skinks entirely hiding saurus cavalry. However if you shoot at a unit screened by another unit that unit counts as being in hard cover, i.e. -2 to hit.
Redirecting is back, and you declare charge reactions after each declaration, NOT after all declarations are made. Redirecting is only if a unit flees and you have another unit in charge range - take a Ld test, if passed you can redirect (can only do this once, as youd expect) otherwise you must chase the origianl fleeing unit.
IF you catch a unit that has fled you can take a Ld test to perform a free reform after finishing the charge move - handy to avoid so much bait and flee and being hammered by a flank charge.
Finally you CANNOT DECLARE an impossible charge - if M+2D6" is less tha nthe distance you have just premeasured, you cannot make the declaration.
5394
Post by: reds8n
Thanks to Mr. Scryer in the darkness for the pic.
Demons also get a release of their spells sooner rather than later. This is a limited release, as will they all be AFAIK.
1
6174
Post by: The Crippler
I LOVE these cards. LOVE THEM. I really hope they aren't made into a limited-release item. They're really a great idea. I've just always printed out my own before, glued them to old MtG cards and put them in sleeves, but I'll buy multiples of these for each army I own.
123
Post by: Alpharius
Same here!
Any word on whether or not the magic cards are 'limited' or, hopefully, not?
5394
Post by: reds8n
The ones with the spells from the rulebook aren't, AFAIK, I think it's just the race/book specific ones that are. I guess one thing we'll see from now on will be a release of cards with each and every army as they roll out.
9594
Post by: RiTides
Any word on whether there will be cards for wood elves (the lore of Athel Loren) reds8n?
Also, are the magic lores for the specific army books changing in the erratas?
Also, I haven't confirmed this myself, but a huge thing people seem to be missing about magic is that you can only take a spell once in an army. (Unless that rumor's wrong, I need to check it out myself) So hopefully that will tone down some of the insane big spells... there'll only be one of them in the army.
2889
Post by: Jin
mikhaila wrote:Somewhat, but with everything going in Initiative order, it still means that if my orcs charge your 12 swordmasters, your going to get 18 attacks, going first. A horde unit will get to strike back at you, and you'll take some losses. But any smaller units might just be wiped on impact.
For the most part, Swordmasters will still dish out quite a bit of damage. However, given the increased amount of shooting (including true LOS, despite the -2 modifier) and the 15 point price-tag that Swordmasters have, it'll be difficult, I think, to get them in CC with enough bodies to get the job done without losing out to SCR. Granted, this is speculation and I haven't run any sort of math-hammering to see how valid my point is. Still, I'll reserve the right to amend my opinion after a few games  .
At least the White Lions now have double their attacks.
5394
Post by: reds8n
RiTides wrote:Any word on whether there will be cards for wood elves (the lore of Athel Loren) reds8n?
Also, are the magic lores for the specific army books changing in the erratas?
I am told we will see cards for each and every army....eventually.
I don't think the erratta will be changing the lores themselves, perhaps the odd tweak here and there. It's mainly clarifications I think and a few changes.. heard something the...err...."Ring of Hotek" ( ? ) being changed but.. how/what/why I have no idea.
20984
Post by: acsmedic
One thing that I have not been able to find is the answer to this.
On magic you roll 2d6 to determine how many power and dispel dice. Is that roll once per game per player or rolled each magic phase?
17836
Post by: Ixquic
Each time
2889
Post by: Jin
Per magic phase.
20984
Post by: acsmedic
Thanks... I like that better... some phases you will rock others you roll snake eyes... that right there should balance things a bit.
30537
Post by: ChaosPotato
TheFirstBorn wrote:its 25% lords, 25% core, 50% special and 25% rare.
Also you are unable to have more than 3 duplicate special units, under 3k games.
does this mean that my Wood Elf army with a Treeman Ancient as it's lord is boned?
The Treeman Ancient after wargear is something like 350 points, and counts as a lord, and rare choice. So does this mean that in a 2000 point army I now only have 150 points left for heros/other lords and 150 points left for rares?
this would force me to do away with my second treeman and cut me down to maybe 2 gakky branch nymphs.
17836
Post by: Ixquic
At this point it isn't clear abouts stuff that counts under multiple slots (like special characters that are both a hero and a lord slot). I assume that the errata will clear that sort of thing up on a case by case basis.
Treeman Ancient isn't that great now anyway. I think the money Wood Elf army is going to be a Glade Guard gunline, a Spellweaver with beast (or life if they can take it I forget) magic then some units of Treekin and Treemen to put pressure on the flanks.
2889
Post by: Jin
Hrm. Apparently there're debates on whether or not HE's with GW's still gain the Re-roll benefits for havin >= I.
Can someone provide the exact wording of ASF and ASL interaction?
17836
Post by: Ixquic
Basically if you have both ASF and ASL, they cancel and you go by straight I. However the High Elf book has some funky wording that they strike first regardless of their weapon. Previously there was no always strike last rule at all (it was a property of the great weapon) and no canceling effect since everyone with ASF stuck first with great weapons. It's really rules lawyery and I would assume they function like everyone else; the faq with hopefully clear it up one way or the other.
721
Post by: BorderCountess
Jin wrote:Hrm. Apparently there're debates on whether or not HE's with GW's still gain the Re-roll benefits for havin >= I.
Can someone provide the exact wording of ASF and ASL interaction?
They don't. The two rules cancel each other out, and they strike at Initiative, with no rerolls.
2889
Post by: Jin
Yeah, that's the argument that's under debate (and clearly something that must be Errata'd).
The arguments are three-fold, it seems:
1) According to strict RAW of Speed of Asuryan, "All High Elf units have ASF, regardless of weapon used". This sort of suggests that they still have ASF with GW's since rules in AB's trump BRB (usually).
2) Reading new ASF + ASL rules, High Elves with GW's have their ASF is completely cancelled out with ASL and so merely fight in I order, no re-rolls.
3) And this is the touchier subject - ASF + ASL mitigate eachother such that HE's fight in I order, however, ASF + >=I is STILL effective, allowing re-rolls.
I don't really mind case 1) being ruled out.
The distinction between 2) and 3) I see as being pretty important.
30537
Post by: ChaosPotato
Ixquic wrote:...Treeman Ancient isn't that great now anyway....
Is there some strategy that got nerfed with the Treeman Ancient that I missed?
I'm just getting into Warhammer Fantasy, but it seems to me that the Annoyance of Nesting on a Treeman Ancient rocks, especially now that the outnumber combat res mod was done away with.
So in any combat with the treeman vs. a large unit, he could challenge any champion, then either smoosh him or cause him to sit uselessly in the back.
or is there something wrong with this assumption?
17836
Post by: Ixquic
Tree singing just isn't that great since everyone can just saunter through forests now and your own just can't hide inside nearly as well so his two bound spells are meh. Level 4 casters are MUCH MUCH more important now and he eats up a good deal of that Lord allowance. With tons more attacks on him it will be easier to sneak in wounds and everyone knows to refuse challenges against him. Everyone is also stubborn against him being he's a single model. He's not BAD, but there are probably better uses of his points.
You can make a character almost as good out of the rule book magic items with the duelist sword (WS10) and some item that makes you -1 to hit and doesn't require challenges.
666
Post by: Necros
So wait..... for army composition it's 25% for ALL rare, heroes and lords combined? Or 25% each?
21678
Post by: Karon
reds8n wrote:Thanks to Mr. Scryer in the darkness for the pic.
Demons also get a release of their spells sooner rather than later. This is a limited release, as will they all be AFAIK.
Badass, mate, thanks.
30537
Post by: ChaosPotato
Necros wrote:So wait..... for army composition it's 25% for ALL rare, heroes and lords combined? Or 25% each?
Jin wrote:Each
oh wait, so the old restricitons remain, like 1 lord, 3-0 heros, 3+ core etc etc. but now you can't have one lord that is more then 25% of your points. Am I getting this right?
2889
Post by: Jin
No, the old restrictions are gone. You just go by the percentages.
30537
Post by: ChaosPotato
oh okay, I read that wrong.
so it's its 25% lords + heros, 25% core, 50% special and 25% rare.
right?
666
Post by: Necros
Or is it 25% max lord, 25% max hero, 25% max rare, 50% max special ... and did I read somewhere it was 50% minimum for core?
I hate math.
2889
Post by: Jin
25% max for Lords
25% max for Heroes (that's right, EACH)
25% MIN for Core
50% max Special
25% max Rare
Additional caveats that you can take a max of 3 repeat choice in Specials and a max of 2 repeat choices Rares (any 2-for-1 options count as '1' choice) for games up to 3k.
8052
Post by: Terminus
I wonder how much this new design paradigm will influence the next 40K.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
Jin wrote:Yeah, that's the argument that's under debate (and clearly something that must be Errata'd).
The arguments are three-fold, it seems:
1) According to strict RAW of Speed of Asuryan, "All High Elf units have ASF, regardless of weapon used". This sort of suggests that they still have ASF with GW's since rules in AB's trump BRB (usually).
2) Reading new ASF + ASL rules, High Elves with GW's have their ASF is completely cancelled out with ASL and so merely fight in I order, no re-rolls.
3) And this is the touchier subject - ASF + ASL mitigate eachother such that HE's fight in I order, however, ASF + >=I is STILL effective, allowing re-rolls.
I don't really mind case 1) being ruled out.
The distinction between 2) and 3) I see as being pretty important.
Jin - from what I recall of the Always Strikes Last rule is that it basically takes away Always Strikes First. So you wouldn't have ASF anymore - if that is the wording it kinda takes care of 1 and 3, no? I will doublecheck tomorrow though as I'm headed down to the GW store. (You should stop by!)
2889
Post by: Jin
@Killjoy - Yeah, that's my question. The Ulthuan.net guys are squabbling quite a bit about it. It's a subtle but big difference.
I'm sure 1) is not gonna be the ruling in the end and its loss won't be terrible. I'll have to take a break from my painting spree to stop by to look at the rules myself tomorrow. What time you planning on heading down there?
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
Caleb and I are going to head down at noon I think. There's a 40k tourney rd 2 that we are going to try (my 3rd game of 40k ever).
So we will be there for a bit.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Jin wrote:Yeah, that's the argument that's under debate (and clearly something that must be Errata'd).
The arguments are three-fold, it seems:
1) According to strict RAW of Speed of Asuryan, "All High Elf units have ASF, regardless of weapon used". This sort of suggests that they still have ASF with GW's since rules in AB's trump BRB (usually).
2) Reading new ASF + ASL rules, High Elves with GW's have their ASF is completely cancelled out with ASL and so merely fight in I order, no re-rolls.
3) And this is the touchier subject - ASF + ASL mitigate eachother such that HE's fight in I order, however, ASF + >=I is STILL effective, allowing re-rolls.
I don't really mind case 1) being ruled out.
The distinction between 2) and 3) I see as being pretty important.
From reading the book (which I may or may not have right next to me) any rule, barring Army Selection in the new rulebook loses precedence to those in the current batch of Army Books. Ergo, 1) Is the natural conclusion to draw, as the High Elf book has decreed that for them, ASF ignores ASL where it stems from weapon equipped.
30500
Post by: Pip
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Jin wrote:Yeah, that's the argument that's under debate (and clearly something that must be Errata'd).
The arguments are three-fold, it seems:
1) According to strict RAW of Speed of Asuryan, "All High Elf units have ASF, regardless of weapon used". This sort of suggests that they still have ASF with GW's since rules in AB's trump BRB (usually).
2) Reading new ASF + ASL rules, High Elves with GW's have their ASF is completely cancelled out with ASL and so merely fight in I order, no re-rolls.
3) And this is the touchier subject - ASF + ASL mitigate eachother such that HE's fight in I order, however, ASF + >=I is STILL effective, allowing re-rolls.
I don't really mind case 1) being ruled out.
The distinction between 2) and 3) I see as being pretty important.
From reading the book (which I may or may not have right next to me) any rule, barring Army Selection in the new rulebook loses precedence to those in the current batch of Army Books. Ergo, 1) Is the natural conclusion to draw, as the High Elf book has decreed that for them, ASF ignores ASL where it stems from weapon equipped.
Actually it quotes that the high elf UNIT has ASF. That does not change that a GW allways strikes last even slightly. There is no wording to be confused on. The unit has ASF bonus the weapon has ASL bonus. Therefore you should just assume you have both and so you strike at initiative.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
Right. I think that high elf says "ASF regardless of weapon." So they have ASF regardless of using great weapons. Great weapons doesn't mean they don't have ASF, it just also gives them ASL. It just so happens that ASF and ASL together mean initiative order, no reroll.
30490
Post by: Mr Morden
Must admit that reading all the rules changes makes me more likely to play the new WFB - I like premeasuring and getting rid of Guess weapons is fine by me - saw too many people playing on specific sized baords knowing the exact range.
hmm if the started set is as awesome as Black Reach I may be buying a couple  (depending on races)
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Expect it to be better matey. Battle for Skull Pass is noticably better packed than Macragge was, and in terms of models, Black Reach beats the snot out of Skull Pass.
Thusly, it would appear that we can expect fantastic models from the Starter Set, weeing all over the Black Reach ones, until 40k gets a new one (probably a couple of years yet I'd expect!)
And Pip.....High Elves do not strictly have ASF. They have Speed of Asuryan, a superior version which grants ASF, regardless of weapon wielded. Thus Swordmasters and White Lions still benefit from ASF. I have both books. This is clear. There is no room for debate.
Also, White Lion Chariots have just got harder. Great Weapons now grant a static +2S, regardless of foot or mounted!
30490
Post by: Mr Morden
Excellent - I was not impressed with the Skull Pass ones - but Black Reach was stunning - followed by Space Hulk - lovely!
Just need to cross my fingers its races i like (I hear its Skaven and Elves - which works well for me (only Dark Elves and Vampires would have been more welcome).
29408
Post by: Melissia
Terminus wrote:I wonder how much this new design paradigm will influence the next 40K.
Same question here. Mostly I want to see pre-measuring, because it'd help solve some of the cheating problems.
8052
Post by: Terminus
That's pretty close to the top of my list as well.
What kind of LOS system does 8th use?
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
TLOS. If you can see the chest or head, shoot/hit it.
29408
Post by: Melissia
So basically the same as 40k. That's probably here to stay in 40k too, then.
7801
Post by: Mick A
No more seeing units of Ogres hiding behind units of gnoblars...
Mick
29408
Post by: Melissia
Maybe they could sew them into gnoblar armor instead.
7801
Post by: Mick A
Melissia wrote:Maybe they could sew them into gnoblar armor instead.
Now theres a conversion idea... 
Mick
666
Post by: Necros
So, something else I was thinking of for my skinks, or I guess any ranked unit that shoots like handgunners or whatever..
skinks can shoot javelins 12" now right? And with things fighting in 2 ranks, does that mean both ranks can toss their javelins? And then if I have a horde of em that's 10+ models wide, 3 ranks can throw em? 30 poison javelins in the air sounds like fun to me
may be getting rid of a lot of blowpipes if that's how it works.
9594
Post by: RiTides
Mick A wrote:No more seeing units of Ogres hiding behind units of gnoblars...
Mick
Well, those gnoblars will probably provide hard cover to the ogres- which will be a -2 modifier to hit! It specifically lists "other models" as one of the things that provides "hard cover" (as opposed to soft cover, which is -1 to hit). So I think you will see units of Ogres hiding behind gnoblars  now more than ever! Especially with the extra rare units that will be coming out now... lots of artillery.
About the whole Treeman Ancient debate- I think he'll still have his uses, and I'll certainly still be taking one! The annoyance of nettlings really helps take on big opposing characters! Also, imho he definitely won't be counting towards both your Lord and Rare percentages- I'm sure that will be errata'ed. I am wondering if he will count as a "duplicate unit" with a normal treeman (and thus only allow you to take one other treeman, rather than two). I doubt it, though... hopefully he'll just count as Lord and that's that.
Treesinging is weaker, but skirmishers are stubborn in woods, so it still helps to put some dryads in there and move it around, imho. That's what I'll be doing with my magic! It's either that, or take a level 4 caster (to get acces to lore of life/beasts in the rulebook). But I'd rather just stick with using the PD generated by winds of magic to cast the bound treesinging spells for my treemen. So no extra points put into magic to get PD (and also none for DD, since they both are generated automatically), which saves me points from 7th, but treesinging can only buff my own skirmishers, or hurt opposing models that venture inside woods. I kind of like it... but it definitely means I won't be going on offense with magic. To do so requires a significant investment in a level 4 caster, and that just doesn't fit my army.
Here comes the trees, baby!
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
Well I think in general it was hard for WE to go offensive on magic.
Another thing I was thinking re: WE is that people will be more likely to go into forests with their troops now and hopefully get hit by treesinging. It was always such slow moving area that most non-skirmirshers steered clear, regardless of treesinging.
I actually think that "counts as both" units will come out of both allowances. That's the closest to how it works now. That's how I'd play it, but of course, just speculation for now.
8303
Post by: sexiest_hero
If i'm reading this right, you could take 1 really expensive hero or about 6 cheap ones in a 2500 point game?
320
Post by: Platuan4th
sexiest_hero wrote:If i'm reading this right, you could take 1 really expensive hero or about 6 cheap ones in a 2500 point game?
Correct.
752
Post by: Polonius
Yay for Empire! Nothing like 3 cannon and 3 Mortars in 2000pts, plus a bunch of characters...
30500
Post by: Pip
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They have Speed of Asuryan, a superior version which grants ASF, regardless of weapon wielded. Thus Swordmasters and White Lions still benefit from ASF. I have both books. This is clear. There is no room for debate.
There is obviously room for debate that is why it is being heavily debated. And once again the rule states that the elves have ASF whatever weapon they are using; not that it prevents the weapon having ASL. So the elves have one rule and the weapon the other.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Wrong matey.
As I said, Speed of Asuryan IS NOT ASF in itself. It grantd ASF, plus the further bonus of ignoring drawbacks to weapons. It is there in black and white. There is no room for debate, but there will always be room for wishful thinking.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
I have the HE book and I don't think it as clear cut as that.
The HE book reads:
"All High Elves have the special rule 'Always strikes first', regardless of the weapon they are wielding. See the main rulebook for details of this special rule."
In 8th edition, and again, this is from memory, great weapons now grant the rule "Always strikes last."
I think there is very much room for debate (and the fact that multiple people are disagreeing with you should show that you are wrong, at least as far as "there is no room for debate.")
Speed of Asuryan grants the model ASF, regardless of weapon used. Therefore, whether you have great weapons or hand weapons, you have Always strikes first. Great weapons grants the model ASL. Now the model has Always strikes first and Always strikes last. Speed of Asuryan tells us nothing about what to do in this situation. Speed has granted it ASF, regardless of its weapon.
But now the 8th edition rules say that if a model has ASF (which it does) and ASL (which it does) then it strikes in normal initiative order.
To think about it in a different way, if some weapon said "removes ASF and grants ASL" - then another model with that weapon and with "normal ASF" (not Speed) would actually not strike in initiative order. It would strike last. But Speed of Asuryan would allow the model to ignore the "remove ASF" part of the rule and strike at initiative order.
4884
Post by: Therion
I'm with Grotsnik on this one. You're choosing to ignore the 'regardless of weapon used' part of the sentence. I read it as meaning that the High Elves are ASF despite wielding great weapons.
Don't stress though, because this will be in the High Elves PDF.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
I'm not ignoring it at all. I pointed out an example where it would be relevant - this just isn't one of them. GW don't negate ASF now. They grant a separate and distinct rule.
I think you are choosing to ignore the fact that the rule says it grants the rule Always strikes first regardless of weapon. It doesn't say the model "always strikes first" in the general use of that phrase.
The weapon here is not removing Always strikes first. Therefore that phrase is inapplicable. If great weapons did remove Always strikes first, the result would be the High Elf striking last - which is not what is happening.
At any rate, my main point wasn't that this is the only way to read the rule. It is that Grotsnik is certainly wrong that there is no room for debate on this. You are right that the PDF will clear it up and either way that comes down will be fine with me.
21678
Post by: Karon
RiTides wrote:Mick A wrote:No more seeing units of Ogres hiding behind units of gnoblars...
Mick
Well, those gnoblars will probably provide hard cover to the ogres- which will be a -2 modifier to hit! It specifically lists "other models" as one of the things that provides "hard cover" (as opposed to soft cover, which is -1 to hit). So I think you will see units of Ogres hiding behind gnoblars now more than ever! Especially with the extra rare units that will be coming out now... lots of artillery.
About the whole Treeman Ancient debate- I think he'll still have his uses, and I'll certainly still be taking one! The annoyance of nettlings really helps take on big opposing characters! Also, imho he definitely won't be counting towards both your Lord and Rare percentages- I'm sure that will be errata'ed. I am wondering if he will count as a "duplicate unit" with a normal treeman (and thus only allow you to take one other treeman, rather than two). I doubt it, though... hopefully he'll just count as Lord and that's that.
Treesinging is weaker, but skirmishers are stubborn in woods, so it still helps to put some dryads in there and move it around, imho. That's what I'll be doing with my magic! It's either that, or take a level 4 caster (to get acces to lore of life/beasts in the rulebook). But I'd rather just stick with using the PD generated by winds of magic to cast the bound treesinging spells for my treemen. So no extra points put into magic to get PD (and also none for DD, since they both are generated automatically), which saves me points from 7th, but treesinging can only buff my own skirmishers, or hurt opposing models that venture inside woods. I kind of like it... but it definitely means I won't be going on offense with magic. To do so requires a significant investment in a level 4 caster, and that just doesn't fit my army.
Here comes the trees, baby!
Until the Beastmen come and raze your trees!
28930
Post by: Spookymancer
It really is silly to argue right now about a rule that will clearly be addressed in the High Elf FAQ as anyone who has had a chance to read the 8th edition rules knows that right below the box that describes ASF, it clearly states how it works with ASL and that they cancel each other out and the GW wielder strikes at initiative and does not get the bonus rerolls to hit.
8th edition is not released yet and people are trying to pick apart and dissect every rule to find loopholes and yet every codex outside of Beastmen were written with an older ruleset in mind so the wording on things will not work exactly as it has been intended to when the codex or book was originally written.
People are better off spending this time trying to figure out what changed in the new ruleset and how are they going to have to adjust to the changes rather than worry about how can I bend the rules to play my broken list and still remain dominant.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
Fair enough Spooky I guess I got a little rankled at the "It is there in black and white. There is no room for debate" comment, but well said. While room for debate, there isn't (yet) a need for debate.
Thanks!
23828
Post by: eledamris
The High Elf debate reminds me of a time at Games Day Chicago in '04 when a friend and I played against a self-proclaimed "Rules Lawyer" in one of the GW pick-up games. It was one of the worst gaming experiences of my life. If someone is trying to be the Johnny Cochran of Warhammer rules, they'll probably win the argument, but they won't have anyone to play with.
On another topic, how does everyone see this changing the way the typical army looks on the table? I can't see horde working for elite units, even those that are Core just because it's so cost-prohibitive. To effectively use horde, you need at least 40 models (50 for High Elves), because you'll need full ranks in order to stay stubborn. I can only envision one or two big units like this in even a horde army like Gobbos or Skaven. 40 Goblins with spears are a lot of attacks, but I still think they'll have trouble with my 10 Empire Knights, maybe doing 2-3 wounds and then suffering from 4-5 wounds coming back. Personally, I think we'll see one or two big horde units of core crunchies supported by smaller units of damage dealing elites... sorta the way it's supposed to look. Crazy.
4661
Post by: Minsc
Going to repeat this question in here: How has Scout been changed? As, right now, it's unusable.
443
Post by: skyth
I didn't look at it, but I heard that it allows deployment outside of 12" regardless of cover, etc...But prohibits first turn charges if you go first.
4661
Post by: Minsc
skyth wrote:I didn't look at it, but I heard that it allows deployment outside of 12" regardless of cover, etc...But prohibits first turn charges if you go first.
So it's a slightly modified 40K Infiltrate. Joy. At least it ends the Dark Elf Assassin trick.
443
Post by: skyth
Only if the DE player goes first. If the DE player goes second, then they are free to charge
28930
Post by: Spookymancer
Scout is exactly as Skyth said so it is much easier to play with now since you do not need to hide your units behind buildings or in terrain. And there is no charging at all just like units with the Vanguard rule (fast cavarly) on the first turn.
And as I understand it Skyth it's first turn for both players regardless of who goes actually first in the turn.
8052
Post by: Terminus
Well, those gnoblars will probably provide hard cover to the ogres- which will be a -2 modifier to hit! It specifically lists "other models" as one of the things that provides "hard cover" (as opposed to soft cover, which is -1 to hit). So I think you will see units of Ogres hiding behind gnoblars now more than ever! Especially with the extra rare units that will be coming out now... lots of artillery.
Ooh, I like this a lot better than the flat save 40K cover hands out now.
21678
Post by: Karon
Terminus wrote:Well, those gnoblars will probably provide hard cover to the ogres- which will be a -2 modifier to hit! It specifically lists "other models" as one of the things that provides "hard cover" (as opposed to soft cover, which is -1 to hit). So I think you will see units of Ogres hiding behind gnoblars now more than ever! Especially with the extra rare units that will be coming out now... lots of artillery.
Ooh, I like this a lot better than the flat save 40K cover hands out now.
Much more realistic too.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
I got the impression that it was only the very first turn of the game, re: scout. And it was 12 inches.
26570
Post by: Lorne
Necros I remember reading that you no longer get the -1 for moving and firing with blowpipes. So now you can move and multishoot and hit on a 5+ barring other modifiers.
Has anyone heard about any change to poison?
8303
Post by: sexiest_hero
So is it
25% lords
25% heros
or just 25% for both?
320
Post by: Platuan4th
sexiest_hero wrote:So is it
25% lords
25% heros
or just 25% for both?
25% lords
25% heros
8303
Post by: sexiest_hero
Awesomriffic. So i can have a uber Vampire lord, and like 12 necromancers in a 2500 point game
320
Post by: Platuan4th
sexiest_hero wrote:Awesomriffic. So i can have a uber Vampire lord, and like 12 necromancers in a 2500 point game
You can. And Necromancers, since they buy spells instead of rolling for them, aren't affected by the "only one of each spell" rule. However, good luck casting with all of them since you're limited to 12 power dice Max.
9655
Post by: barlio
Yeah, but the Necros will be in a DMV-like waiting line to cast their spells.
What I think is interesting that from looking at a variety of people's 8th Ed lists is that people will most likely run the same number of characters. Cheaper character armies (like Empire, O&G, etc...) will most likely field another hero or Lord. Granted lists like O&G and the Empire now have access to builds that can include more special choices that points wise would equal a cheaper character (i.e. mounted Captain with goodies = a cannon or couple of mortars.
4298
Post by: Spellbound
What about VC? All vampires know invocation - does that remain valid, and only the rolled-for spells can't be duplicated?
What if you have a level 4 and two lv 2's? The 4 takes his, the 2 takes his....what does the other level 2 get?
Also, ALL power dice, regardless of source, are shared now correct?
So if a vampire takes the +2 power dice ability, anyone can use them?
15020
Post by: Lyracian
Terminus wrote:Ooh, I like this a lot better than the flat save 40K cover hands out now.
Yes it might actually make Marines use cover. Perhaps by the time we get to 8th Edition 40k...
Anyway back to Fantasy. Everything I have heard makes me like this edition. Pre-measure, Random Charge Range, Less magic but each spell is more powerful all sound good to me.
Bound items are sounding a bit weak and I dislike skirmishers being a fixed formation.
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
About the Speed of Asuryan- it clearly says regardless of weapon, meaning they have ASF no matter what weapon they have(yes this includes great weapons). There is no cheap shot rules lawyering, or what ever it's a special bonus that HE get thats like denying WoC there roll on the Eye of the gods.
8052
Post by: Terminus
Prepare to have 9/10 people disagree with you, the 1/10th being the HE players.
28930
Post by: Spookymancer
Invocation in General got much weaker as did all low casting value magic spells such as Ogre magic since you cannot take the risk to one dice spells anymore. Any roll of a 1 or a 2 on a single dice if you one dice magic is a failure of the spell and that wizard cannot cast magic any more for the rest of the turn. This also is true if you fail to reach the casting value of a spell with a wizard.
The opposite is now true for dispelling spells as well. You nominate a wizard (if you have one) to attempt to dispel and roll dice. If he single dices the dispel attempt and rolls a 1 or a 2 then its an automatic failure and he cannot attempt to dispel any more magic spells for the rest of the turn.
Until they get FAQ'd the most powerful magic items in the games are the ones that cause automatic miscasts or that greatly increase the chance to miscast as the new table is just brutal and you will see tons of wizards blowing up and killing their own units or just killing that turns magic phase entirely.
4298
Post by: Spellbound
I still plan to try casting invocation on one dice. The enemy has FAR fewer dispel dice than they used to have, and as before I'll either succeed on a 3+ or I'll fail, big deal. I just won't be taking the level 2 vampire power [pointless now, largely] anymore, and heck even the ghoul power is really just to either make it more difficult to dispel and to increase beyond starting size. Since anyone can use the power dice now, the enemy will have a choice - dispel the weak summoning spells I've cast and let my bigger wizards cast the really nasty spells, or let me summon. Pretty much just like it was before. The random dice generation hurts, but I can mitigate that by having a couple vampires with the +2 power dice power [probably a vampire lord] to feed more power dice. Sure, they might fail if I roll a 1 or a 2 just like before, and then they can't cast anymore spells - that just means the other wizards I have will pick up the slack. Honestly I'd rather take THAT risk than risk getting the miscast!
Also worth noting: The Slaan's becalming skill or whatever that picked a wizard and removed their 6's that they roll is now a blessing and a curse - they'll never get IF, but never miscast either if you use that. Hilarious.
Vampire counts didn't totally get the nerf bat. They'll need to take fewer bigger units than MSU and depend on spells to bulk them up, but largely I think they'll do ok. The character limitations still allow you to take 50% of your army as characters, which is something that try as I might, I was never able to make an effective VC list that didn't max out on characters, and that came out to about 50% of the list points usually. Their infantry took a bit of a hit [a huge one] though fear now means enemies will hit us on 5+ and we'll hit them on 3+, lots of the time and that's kind of good. It looks like they'll depend on combined arms, though. Big blocks of undead hordes supported by some kind of heavy hitter like a Varghulf or cavalry or wraiths to put out the damage and make sure you outnumber your enemy. Shame Vlad can't get his ward save and regeneration, though.
I'm impressed with what the rules do for WoC, though. I mean it's just amazing. Always getting your attacks even if you're killed, striking in I order [which I don't necessarily like, but it does make WoC stronger], bonus attacks from the back - I just wish we could use spears! March blocking is now seriously impeded [HOORAY!] and terrain much less of an effect. BSBs apparently allow re-rolls for stupidity now so trolls will be quite nice, and I can take a melee-heavy force and still have approx. half the dispel dice the enemy has for power dice. I can also take a wizard with the puppet to REALLY capitalize on that delicious miscast table, and the Black Tongue is definitely an option. And oh dear, the hellcannon!
The new edition loves WoC.
18282
Post by: Grimstonefire
I must admit I still find it strange the people saying 'but the army book says...' There is going to be an errata people. What the rulebook currently says doesn't guarantee it will stay that way.
7801
Post by: Mick A
Some people are wondering if the book is worth the money so I thought I would give you an actual breakdown of whats in the book:
vii-xvii - introduction
1-152 - main rules and scenarios
153-270 -Warhammer world fluff (inc map of the complete world...)
271-380 - miniatures and modelling
381-478 - Warhammer battles (more specialised scenarios)
479-489 - bestiary
490-505 - lores of magic and magic items
506-509 - reference sheets
510-512 - index
Overall a very full book. Gamewise I would say the only sections not useful are the fluff and miniatures sections (so about 200 pages but that still means there are more gaming related pages in this edition than total pages in the current edition!).
Mick
2889
Post by: Jin
Terminus wrote:Prepare to have 9/10 people disagree with you, the 1/10th being the HE players.
Despite the snarkiness of the quote, as a HE player, I would actually argue in that Speed of Asuryan gets cancelled out with ASL.
In terms of the original question I had, the exact wording (finally got a chance to read the book) is that ASF and ASL negate eachother, which suggests that normal ASF benefits of High Initiative Re-rolls are also gone.
In any event, we'll have to wait until the Errata comes out (hopefully will be addressed).
Couple of note-worthy things I noticed while reading the book that I don't think have been mentioned.
1) Flyers have a move of 10" and a "fly-march" of 20". This is actually quite a big change, especially for any flying units with shooting (not very many, to be fair). No more unrestricted 20" moves.
2) Units with flaming attacks apparently cause fear in cavalry/beasts/chariots (er, something like that....basically animals are afraid of fire). Seems like a fairly unnecessary addition to rules on Flaming Attacks.
3) Warmachines - For shooting, you ALWAYS hit the warmachine. Use the T7 of the Warmachine to determine wounds. However, any wounds are taken from the crew, and the crew receive whatever armor save they have available.
4) I forget in which thread this was argued, but regarding Irresistible Force and miscasts:
As mentioned, any rolls with 2 or more 6's when casting cause the spell to be cast with IF. However it also causes a miscast. As skyth had mentioned, that section DOES specifically state that Irresistible Force leads to miscasts.
HOWEVER. as I think Pip mentioned, there is a paragraph near the end of the section on IF and Miscasts that explicitly states that items that cause spells to be cast with IF or miscast DO NOT cause the other. IE, items, such as Ring of Hotek, which causes miscasts on any roll with doubles DOES NOT cause the spell to be cast with IF. Similarly, the Book of Hoeth, which causes any roll with doubles to be cast with IF, DOES NOT cause wizard to roll under the Loss of Control table (excepting, of course, that he rolls 2 or more 6's).
5) Monsters and Handlers - still can't target the handlers in HtH, but it seemed that wounds caused by shooting could distribute to the Handlers. Losing all the Handlers causes a roll under the Monster Reaction Table, per normal.
29070
Post by: Turalon
I played a demo game with the new rules the other night and I have to say that it was a lot of fun, much more fast paces and the rules seemed to make sense as we were playing through (although I think we made some rule mistakes).
So I would say that I am a fan of the new rules.
958
Post by: mikhaila
I've had a couple of great games, testing out some of the new stuff, not necessarily playing hard to win.
That said "What the hell, change into a friggin dragon, lets see what you can do." was a big mistake!
And orcs are not only very fun in this edition, but driving my opponent crazy. Some units are suddenly much better. Squigs tearing up whole units is so fun.
2889
Post by: Jin
Oh, also:
When attacking Warmachines in CC, only 6 models may attack it/the crew.
3330
Post by: Kirasu
I fully plan to test out the new power of a slaan by throwing 6 dice at the biggest spells until I roll double 6s then hopefully blowing up an enemy wizard. No more miscasts on double 1s is amazing for people like Teclis
S8, T8 dragon? yes please
30500
Post by: Pip
Kirasu wrote:I fully plan to test out the new power of a slaan by throwing 6 dice at the biggest spells until I roll double 6s then hopefully blowing up an enemy wizard. No more miscasts on double 1s is amazing for people like Teclis
S8, T8 dragon? yes please
I had 1 game where I cast that on my lvl 2 mage 5/6 turns. Was fantastic.
I was playing a VC player and the fact that I kept turning into a dragon or mountain chimera made him waste his power dice on getting rid of it each turn. He summoned a total of 2 models the whole game.
Also that lizardmen item can rot in hell. ESPECIALLY in 8th ed.
17799
Post by: Oshova
I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[
Oshova
443
Post by: skyth
Ummm...Ogres get rank bonus for 3 wide...
958
Post by: mikhaila
Oshova wrote:I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[
Oshova
Been reported many times that monstrous infantry needs just 3 per rank. They also get 3 supporting attacks per model, not 1, and horde rule kicks in at 6 wide, not 10. Ogres got a huge boost.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Spellbound wrote:What about VC? All vampires know invocation - does that remain valid, and only the rolled-for spells can't be duplicated?
That remains valid. One of the exceptions is that if you have a spell that you have to have and can't choose/discard/roll for another, it can be duplicated.
7926
Post by: youbedead
Oshova wrote:I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[
Oshova
FOR the last time rank bonus is at 5 wide not ten and for ogres its three
116
Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
I am not very amusead at my local store (chermside in Brisbane).
They have 2 copies of the rulebook in the window.
Customers are allowed 'glimpses' of 1 or 2 pages of rules, and more of the 'fluff' sections.
There will be no practice games using the new rules until 1 week prior to the release of the system.
Despite the UK and US having intro/practice games for a week now.
Now in saying all that I know 2 guys who already have the book and I read most of it last week. BUT its all about getting to play the new rules, not reading them. And not everyone has the luxury of friends who get pre-release stuff.
1478
Post by: warboss
Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I am not very amusead at my local store (chermside in Brisbane).
They have 2 copies of the rulebook in the window.
Customers are allowed 'glimpses' of 1 or 2 pages of rules, and more of the 'fluff' sections.
There will be no practice games using the new rules until 1 week prior to the release of the system.
Despite the UK and US having intro/practice games for a week now.
Now in saying all that I know 2 guys who already have the book and I read most of it last week. BUT its all about getting to play the new rules, not reading them. And not everyone has the luxury of friends who get pre-release stuff.
well, at least you can take solace in the fact that oz prices are lower than the rest of the worl... oh crap... never mind!
958
Post by: mikhaila
Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I am not very amusead at my local store (chermside in Brisbane).
They have 2 copies of the rulebook in the window.
Customers are allowed 'glimpses' of 1 or 2 pages of rules, and more of the 'fluff' sections.
There will be no practice games using the new rules until 1 week prior to the release of the system.
Despite the UK and US having intro/practice games for a week now.
Now in saying all that I know 2 guys who already have the book and I read most of it last week. BUT its all about getting to play the new rules, not reading them. And not everyone has the luxury of friends who get pre-release stuff.
Wow. Dumb.
I played 3 games of 8th today with orcs. Made some dumb mistakes from not having played them in a decade, and experimentation lost me a game. (Hint: Don't let the beast shaman change into a big dragon because you are curious about it.) Another was going splendidly until my shamans head blew up, and a giant sized Purple son killed 28 models including my warboss and a hydra.
Lost to Dark Elves, close loss to Beasts due to Dragon allergies, and a 4pt pyric victory (tie) over a hard chaos mortals army. Games were 2500, 2500, and 2999.
Fun as hell, and had a crowd for all three.
15365
Post by: twistinthunder
Oshova wrote:I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[
Oshova
no, the paragraph says that whenever you see the 5 to a rank rule you replace it with 3 for monstrous infantry as such monstrous infantry only require 6 models in a rank to benefit from the horde rule.
17799
Post by: Oshova
mikhaila wrote:Oshova wrote:I'm dissapointed by the lack of a change to how ranks work. Why should Ogres be at a dissadvantage? It annoys me so much that you need atleast 10 models to get a rank bonus =[ and no with so many ranks being able to attack ogres are going be at even more of a dissadvantage =[
Oshova
Been reported many times that monstrous infantry needs just 3 per rank. They also get 3 supporting attacks per model, not 1, and horde rule kicks in at 6 wide, not 10. Ogres got a huge boost.
Can I just say a massive thanks =D Seriously I've read that book quite a bit already, but seem to have missed out the awesomely important Ogre awesome bits lol
Oshova
9934
Post by: Lork Skystompa
Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I am not very amusead at my local store (chermside in Brisbane).
They have 2 copies of the rulebook in the window.
Customers are allowed 'glimpses' of 1 or 2 pages of rules, and more of the 'fluff' sections.
There will be no practice games using the new rules until 1 week prior to the release of the system.
Despite the UK and US having intro/practice games for a week now.
Now in saying all that I know 2 guys who already have the book and I read most of it last week. BUT its all about getting to play the new rules, not reading them. And not everyone has the luxury of friends who get pre-release stuff.
Same here in Sydney . 2 of the GW stores I frequent will not let you look at the book unless its through a glass case and 2 other FLGS have yet to recieve there copy and are still waiting . Yet again GW lets down the Aussies .
1478
Post by: warboss
mikhaila wrote:I played 3 games of 8th today with orcs. Made some dumb mistakes from not having played them in a decade, and experimentation lost me a game. (Hint: Don't let the beast shaman change into a big dragon because you are curious about it.) Another was going splendidly until my shamans head blew up, and a giant sized Purple son killed 28 models including my warboss and a hydra.
Lost to Dark Elves, close loss to Beasts due to Dragon allergies, and a 4pt pyric victory (tie) over a hard chaos mortals army. Games were 2500, 2500, and 2999.
Fun as hell, and had a crowd for all three.
did you play larger than normal games or is 2500+ the standard game size in fantasy? ( 40k nut here but fantasy noob) also, purple son???
18427
Post by: radiohazard
Terminus wrote:I wonder how much this new design paradigm will influence the next 40K.
That would break 40K IMO.
958
Post by: mikhaila
warboss wrote:mikhaila wrote:I played 3 games of 8th today with orcs. Made some dumb mistakes from not having played them in a decade, and experimentation lost me a game. (Hint: Don't let the beast shaman change into a big dragon because you are curious about it.) Another was going splendidly until my shamans head blew up, and a giant sized Purple son killed 28 models including my warboss and a hydra.
Lost to Dark Elves, close loss to Beasts due to Dragon allergies, and a 4pt pyric victory (tie) over a hard chaos mortals army. Games were 2500, 2500, and 2999.
Fun as hell, and had a crowd for all three.
did you play larger than normal games or is 2500+ the standard game size in fantasy? ( 40k nut here but fantasy noob) also, purple son???
They don't really give a point value. I'm betting a lot of people start playing 2500 to 2999. Nothing special about 2250 that a lot of tournaments do. At 3k you get double the amount of repetition for rares and specials, so I can see that being a popular option. It was certainly fun to be able to field more models, and take some larger units.
Purple Sun of Xerus is a nasty lore of Death spell. It's a magical vortex (classification of spell) that uses the small template and starts at the caster and moves 3xArtillery Dice inches forward, causing any model touched to take an initiative test or DIE! And of course my worthy opponent had taken the option to try casting at a higher level (25) and use the large template. He went through 3 orc units, taking out 26 models, then my warboss failed both Look out Sir and the I test. Followed by his Hydra dying as well.
He only had the spell because he managed to get a Level 1 Dark Elf wizard into a Wizards tower, take advantage of the library to know all the lore of death, and toss all 8 dice at the spell, getting Absolute Force. The miscast afterwards also wounded the wizard and killed half the unit in the tower, but that's a cost he didn't mind paying. He took out the other half of the unit and killed the wizard in another miscast the next round.
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
Does anyone know if the slanns ability that lets them roll an addition dice for each spell counts towards the 12 PD.
The way its written im thinking no, and that is going to make the lizard magic phase pretty damn scary.
Judgeing by the post above me it looks like the max dice you can throw at a spell being caster level +1 is gone...
That just sounds cheesy, throwing a nuts amount of dice at a spell on a cheap (like 60 point) level one wizard...
8288
Post by: Rated G
Does that Purple Sun spell continue to work even after the caster is dead, assuming it doesn't get dispelled?
4661
Post by: Minsc
Rated G wrote:Does that Purple Sun spell continue to work even after the caster is dead, assuming it doesn't get dispelled?
Yes, it is a magical vortex. These remain on the table after their casting, until either dispelled or a description-based criteria is met. Many people who are expecting to face down a Lore of Death are probably going to keep a scroll on hand for the purpose of dispelling it in their next player turn (since it'll probably be going off with IF).
8272
Post by: FlammingGaunt
ShivanAngel wrote:Does anyone know if the slanns ability that lets them roll an addition dice for each spell counts towards the 12 PD.
The way its written im thinking no, and that is going to make the lizard magic phase pretty damn scary.
Judgeing by the post above me it looks like the max dice you can throw at a spell being caster level +1 is gone...
That just sounds cheesy, throwing a nuts amount of dice at a spell on a cheap (like 60 point) level one wizard...
The slann gets to add 1 free dice per spell and yes slann are scary, they've always been. so technically you could cast a spell with 13 dice ending up with 13d6+4 to your cast.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Their one and only scroll! All Scrolls are now unique items (take THAT boring Scroll Caddies!)
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
FlammingGaunt wrote:ShivanAngel wrote:Does anyone know if the slanns ability that lets them roll an addition dice for each spell counts towards the 12 PD.
The way its written im thinking no, and that is going to make the lizard magic phase pretty damn scary.
Judgeing by the post above me it looks like the max dice you can throw at a spell being caster level +1 is gone...
That just sounds cheesy, throwing a nuts amount of dice at a spell on a cheap (like 60 point) level one wizard...
The slann gets to add 1 free dice per spell and yes slann are scary, they've always been. so technically you could cast a spell with 13 dice ending up with 13d6+4 to your cast.
Then when you miscast it you just cupped hands!
4661
Post by: Minsc
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Their one and only scroll! All Scrolls are now unique items (take THAT boring Scroll Caddies!)
On the plus side, some armies won't mind: They can handle a lot of the Dispel requirements without 'em. Take, for instance, Dwarves. Dwarves are - as the rules stand now - shutting down the opponent's magic phase. Single Rune Lord + Anvil = +5 Dispel Dice (+2 for being Dwarves, +2 for Rune Lord, +1 for Anvil) at +2 to all dispelling attempts.
I wonder if this means we're going to start seeing things like the Black Cube used more often, though.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Quite possibly. Is actually one of my least favourite things in 7th (and indeed all previous Eds I have played) that my might spell of doom, with a mental casting cost is generally scuppered by a boring 25 points 'Get Out Of Poop Free' item!
Now, the Scroll is something coveted, to be used when it's critical, and not just as a convenience. Amen on that one if you ask me! 
21289
Post by: Malleus
Uriels: the only big changes for chariots are
1) they can't be smashed by s7 any more
2) I didn't see anything in the book preventing them from marching.
So, some slight buffs, but countered by the fact that they can never break ranks when flanking or rear charging (there's no such thing as US any more, rank breaking is determined by having at least 2 full ranks including the first). Also, since almost everything is going to be stubborn against you (due to having more ranks than you have, the rule is called "steadfast") you won't be able to plow people under in one turn... which means you probably melt from combat res.
I'd say overall you're going to have a very hard time. But it's not a function of the chariot rules, it's a function of the rules for block infantry and so on.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Definately becoming a game of mutual support now. Chariots, Hydras, Giants etc are all pretty pokey still, but if you want to break their target, they will need to be supported in some way, rather than just bundling in on the flank as they have done for some years.
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Definately becoming a game of mutual support now. Chariots, Hydras, Giants etc are all pretty pokey still, but if you want to break their target, they will need to be supported in some way, rather than just bundling in on the flank as they have done for some years.
This change is probably what makes me the most excited about 8th edition.
No more hero on dragon charging a unit of infantry and auto breaking them. The lord is going to be a supporting character for the rest of his army, not a fly around charging blocks of infantry.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Though stuck into the flank, he is still rock hard enough to slowly mash up the unit.
Things are changing a lot in Fantasy, without altering the basic rules. If only 3rd Ed 40k had done this!
7801
Post by: Mick A
Minsc- I'm sure it just says +2 to dispell roles for Dwarves, not +2 dispell dice and +2 to the rolls.
Mick
4661
Post by: Minsc
Mick A wrote:Minsc- I'm sure it just says +2 to dispell roles for Dwarves, not +2 dispell dice and +2 to the rolls.
Mick
Dwarves get +2 to their Dispel Attempts for being Dwarves, that's in the BRB. Meanwhile, the Dwarf Book also says they generate +2 to Dispel Dice as an army rule.
It makes sense, sorta, as it means that you always count as having a Level 2 wizard on hand to dispel something: Not quite as good as if you had a Level 4 w/ a Staff of Sorcery (Hello, +5 to all dispel attempts), but better than no wizards and more reliable than a solitary level 2.
1523
Post by: Saldiven
Minsc wrote:Mick A wrote:Minsc- I'm sure it just says +2 to dispell roles for Dwarves, not +2 dispell dice and +2 to the rolls.
Mick
Dwarves get +2 to their Dispel Attempts for being Dwarves, that's in the BRB. Meanwhile, the Dwarf Book also says they generate +2 to Dispel Dice as an army rule.
It makes sense, sorta, as it means that you always count as having a Level 2 wizard on hand to dispel something: Not quite as good as if you had a Level 4 w/ a Staff of Sorcery (Hello, +5 to all dispel attempts), but better than no wizards and more reliable than a solitary level 2.
Keep in mind that all the army books will receive an errata. It is completely plausible that that +2 to dispel attempts is intended to replace the +2 dispel dice in the army book considering the drastic changes that the magic phase has undergone.
16833
Post by: doubled
Yeah, I played a game the other day under 8th, first time I ever got off the dreaded 13th spell. So magic paraphrased is this.
-Generate power dice by rolling 2d6, the oppenent then gains dispell dice equal to the highest of the two dice (example> Player 1 rolls 2d6 and gets a 4 and a 2, he gets 6 power dice, player 2 gets 4 dispell dice.) You can never have more then 12 power dice in your pool, the only exception are dark elves.
-A wizard can never roll more then 6 dice to cast a spell, and adds his wizard lvl to casting and dispell attempts.
- You roll a dice for each wizard, (called channeling) to see if you can generate extra dice (5 or a 6 required) This cannot put you above 12 power dice. Though.
-You roll for spells, and if you get doubled, (roll two 3's for example) one stays the other you PICK. This also works for other wizards in your army as you cannot have 2 of the same spell unless it is a specific upgrade (A necromancer for example) or unless you already know all the spells in a lore already.
-You can never miscast, but irresitable force casts your spell with no chance of dispell and then makes something bad happen to you.
-The BRB lores have an attribute that applies to a mage whom uses it.
-Bound Spells need power dice
This means that the best 2 casters now are Dark Elves, with the sacrificing to make dice, and Slaan, with the free extra dice each spell. However they are errating every army for use in 8th so wait until you see it before losing all hope.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
I'm pretty sure you channel on a 6+, not 5+. There's a magic item that lets you channel on a 5+.
9594
Post by: RiTides
Yes, it's a 6+ to channel (get an extra dice by rolling a 6). Also, irresistible force cast = miscast, they're one and the same now. If you roll two 6's attempting to cast, it goes off irresistibly, and you have to roll on the miscast table.
Interesting about getting to pick the spell if you roll a duplicate (for any wizard). I'll have to double check that, that sounds very good (not for me, but in general )
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
Yea you get to pick on repeats
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
One interesting thing also is the kamikaze spell.
Imagine a grey seer.
Throw literally a brick of dice (like 8-10) and you will get double 6's. Boom theres your dreaded 13th spell.
Grey seers are expensive at 240 points, but if you can throw that spell at a say, 300-400 point unit, you make your points back instantly.
You also might get lucky and not even lose your grey seer and you can do it again.
9594
Post by: RiTides
I think you can only throw a maximum of 6 dice at a spell, no matter what. Still massive potential to get basically anything off with that, though- especially with +4 to your cast by using a lvl 4 caster.
18427
Post by: radiohazard
Am I correct in thinking that Magic Resistance gives an upgraded ward save???
For Example - Slaan Mage Priest with MR3 has a 2+ Ward Save vs Magic???
If that is the case, a Slaan with Higher State of Consciousness and Unfathomable Presence would be a just a bit tasty as he can only be effected by magical attacks and against spells he has a 2+ Ward Save.
16833
Post by: doubled
Nope, no ward save, just the extra dispel dice (and yes it is channel on a 6+ i was thinking of the warpstone inducer my char took). Slaan however are maybe the best non-named char mage you can take. +4 on casts and dispels, take the entire lore of magic you want, (some of the new lores are amazing, One had a spell that if cast first buffed the rest of the spells from that lore, i think it was life or beasts. ) And they still have the ability to roll a free dice with every spell they cast, these as of yet do not count towards you 12 dice limit, but keep an eye out for errata coming out to change this, in fact with the idea that you will get an erratta for every fantasy army there could be massive changes.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
I'm pretty sure you are wrong here doubled - Magic resistance works differently now. It increases your ward save.
Plus, even if errata changes the +1 dice ability, it would only change it for the first spell you cast, if you started with 12 dice. The limit is only on 12 dice at one time, so adding more in after you cast spells is perfectly fine.
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
I honestly dont see the +1 dice to each spell counting towards the 12 PD, as you can only have 12 PD at any one time. So dark eleves could have 10 power dice, cast a spell, use power of darkness, gain 3 more, cast a spell or two, next wizard uses power of darkness, gains 2 etc etc.
Someone inform me if i read that rule wrong.
4884
Post by: Therion
It increases your ward save.
I remember seeing that MR1 grants you a 6+ ward against magic. MR2 5+, and MR3 4+.
If it adds to your existing ward save, the Bloodthirster's ward save becomes quite strong against magic, and Flesh Hounds MR3 would be truly ferocious.
9389
Post by: lord marcus
OK wait. so its
25% lord
25% heroes
25% min core
50% max special
25% rare
shouldn't core and special be switched? and why does this add up to 150%? Makes no sense to me.
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
Therion wrote:It increases your ward save.
I remember seeing that MR1 grants you a 6+ ward against magic. MR2 5+, and MR3 4+.
If it adds to your existing ward save, the Bloodthirster's ward save becomes quite strong against magic, and Flesh Hounds MR3 would be truly ferocious.
It is cumunalative
Grey seer on screaming bell, the whole thing has a 4+ ward save, 2+ vs magic!
2889
Post by: Jin
lord marcus wrote:OK wait. so its
25% lord
25% heroes
25% min core
50% max special
25% rare
shouldn't core and special be switched? and why does this add up to 150%? Makes no sense to me.
Maximum of any of those (barring Core) is 25%/50%(for specials). They don't have to add up fully to the 25%/50%. You can spend 0% on Lords and Rares, if need be.
958
Post by: mikhaila
Minsc wrote:Mick A wrote:Minsc- I'm sure it just says +2 to dispell roles for Dwarves, not +2 dispell dice and +2 to the rolls.
Mick
Dwarves get +2 to their Dispel Attempts for being Dwarves, that's in the BRB. Meanwhile, the Dwarf Book also says they generate +2 to Dispel Dice as an army rule.
It makes sense, sorta, as it means that you always count as having a Level 2 wizard on hand to dispel something: Not quite as good as if you had a Level 4 w/ a Staff of Sorcery (Hello, +5 to all dispel attempts), but better than no wizards and more reliable than a solitary level 2.
Doubtful that dwarves will get all that after the FAQ. Runelords and Runesmiths got dispel dice in 6th and 7th editions in a similar way to wizards generating them. Wizards no longer generate them, I doubt if smiths will either. I suspect that a Runelord may give +4 to dispell and a Runesmith +2 to dispel (or +1/+3) in a similar way to wizards.
Lots of stuff in the basic rulebooks will change based on the information we get on the 10th. Supposedly there is a substantial FAQ/Errata for all armies. I'm not getting too attatched to any army list before then. Automatically Appended Next Post: doubled wrote:You can never miscast, but irresitable force casts your spell with no chance of dispell and then makes something bad happen to you.
The 'something bad' is actually called a miscast in the 8th edition book. So while double 1's won't cause a miscast, there is still a miscast table. Very important since some things in the game still cause automatic miscasts.
8774
Post by: Jive Professor
FlammingGaunt wrote:ShivanAngel wrote:Does anyone know if the slanns ability that lets them roll an addition dice for each spell counts towards the 12 PD.
The way its written im thinking no, and that is going to make the lizard magic phase pretty damn scary.
Judgeing by the post above me it looks like the max dice you can throw at a spell being caster level +1 is gone...
That just sounds cheesy, throwing a nuts amount of dice at a spell on a cheap (like 60 point) level one wizard...
The slann gets to add 1 free dice per spell and yes slann are scary, they've always been. so technically you could cast a spell with 13 dice ending up with 13d6+4 to your cast.
I have read the rules fully twice, so I thought I'd comment on this really quick:
Even without a FAQ the Slann's +1 PD ability can always add to the roll.
The ruling is that the Power Dice (and dispell dice) POOL can never exceed 12. As soon as you take dice to cast a spell, they have been removed from the pool. Furthermore, the Slann's ability adds directly to the roll, not to the power dice pool. Slann is just fine.
However you can't chuck 13 dice at a spell. No caster is limited by level any longer on how many dice they can use, but all casters are capped at 6 dice (dispells have no cap). Therefore the slann could use 7 dice max if he used Focus Rumination specifically because the ability says it can be in excess of his normal PD limits.
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
I concur.
21395
Post by: lixulana
lord marcus wrote:OK wait. so its
25% lord
25% heroes
25% min core
50% max special
25% rare
shouldn't core and special be switched? and why does this add up to 150%? Makes no sense to me.
it would be more correct to say
0-25% lords
0-25% heroes
25%-max core
0-50% special
0-25% rare
you can not triple special/rare units
giving you a requirement of 25% core + 1 hero/lord as minimum army then spend points up to the maximums given or you run out of points which ever comes first.
4884
Post by: Therion
It is cumunalative
Grey seer on screaming bell, the whole thing has a 4+ ward save, 2+ vs magic!
Bloodthirster with Collar of Khorne, 5+ ward save, 2+ ward against magic. Every Khorne unit has tons of magic resistance.
Does it work against spells only, or also magical weapons and other attacks that are magical? Hilarious.
8774
Post by: Jive Professor
Spells only for Magic Resistance.
19279
Post by: Pappa Shango
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Couple of other changes..
Fast Cavalry Units have a special rule called Vanguard, basically you make a 12" move before turn 1 just like Scout in 40k.
Certain Heavy Cavalry Units have Unstoppable Charge (Can't remember right terminology as was too excited, sad I know). On the turn they Charge they gain +1 attack.
There are rules for a Dwarf Airship!!!!
Magic Resistance works differently. Magic Resistance of 1, gives a 6+ Ward save.. MR2 gives you 5+ Ward save and MR3 gives you 4+ Ward save. It is cumulative.
Thinking Dwarf Ironbreakers and a Thane using an Oath Stone (MR1) and 2 Runes of Warding (MR 2) would be a good combo.
They would have an Armour Save 3+ vs Shooting, 2+ Armour Save in Close Combat.
They would also have a Ward Save 4+ vs Magic, Ward Save of 3+ in Close Combat.
(Remember being armed with a Hand weapon and Shield gives 6+ or +1 ward save)
514
Post by: Orlanth
lixulana wrote:
0-25% lords
0-25% heroes
25%-max core
0-50% special
0-25% rare
you can not triple special/rare units
What gets me is the percentages for characters. I still think characters also need a number limit. The reason for this is the heroic goblin army. Because gobl;ins are cheaper they have access to cheaper and therefore more numberous heroes. This was one of the oddities of older versions of Warhammer, especially those that costed champaions heroes and lords at 5x 13x and 20x the cost of a basic soldier. We are in danger of going back to that, heroic goblins everywhere while the forces of order cannot afford more than one or two characters.
It doesnt feel right. Forces of order should have discount heroes.
1426
Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Cheap heroes like that don't make all that much of an impact.
Sure they can be cheap, given a Great Weapon, and then they can hit hard in a Goblin block, but then you can kill them fairly easily with return attacks as they're still only WS4, T4, and no real armor to speak of.
958
Post by: mikhaila
Voodoo Boyz wrote:Cheap heroes like that don't make all that much of an impact.
Sure they can be cheap, given a Great Weapon, and then they can hit hard in a Goblin block, but then you can kill them fairly easily with return attacks as they're still only WS4, T4, and no real armor to speak of.
Ludwig and I played last night. 2999 in orcs vs ogres. Hilarious game. He put a goblin warboss on a giant spider in his unit of 8 river trolls to herd them around. Several units of 30 orc archers, 35 black orcs, and sadly, he had the smaller units.) I put a butcher, slaughtermaster, tyrant, and bsb in a unit of 14 bulls, taking advantage of the horde rule and having all 18 ogres get attacks. Needless to say, his game plan changed when that went down. I think he was mumbling '...need more bolt throwers.....' for most of the night. His general unfortunately had the screaming sword, and chewed my tyrant up fast with +4 attacks and +4 str. 8 str9 attacks hurts. Another very fun game.
The little goblin heroes he ran were effective, but as you point out, die very easily.
4661
Post by: Minsc
Kinda surprised he took 35 BOrcs, sign that it was a fun game. That's just a bit too pricey a block for my taste (probably over 500pts). 'Course, can't complain: I own 51 BOrcs and thus - if I used Champions as RnF - could make a block 47 big without much difficulty.
Shaga's is going to be nasty this edition if fighting someone who has cheap characters, and about unchanged for most other lists (at least once you get back up to 2250 or 2500). Question for Dakka-ites: For WHFB, do you allow attacks to exceed the ten max (akin to 40K) or do you allow it to go as high as it can per-model? Each has their merits.
And as said by others: Cheap characters are cheap for a reason. A NG Warboss (their Lord Variety)? 5pts more than an Empire Captain, only difference is an extra Wound, Attack, and one less point of Leadership on the NG. Yes, their Lord is better than another army's cheap character only by virtue of +1 on two stats and -1 on another. Skaven aren't much better off with their cheap characters.
958
Post by: mikhaila
I've been running a similar huge troop of black orcs. They server several purposes:
A unit that outnumbers the enemy and isn't breaking from combat. Good killing power, with choice of weapons. No animosity. No panic from other units. Big unit to take advantage of the spirit totem.
The black orcs don't lead the charge. They guard the general and ASB, who in turn hold together the front units that do some killing, and then the black orcs can hit the remaining half str units and mob up.
Big units of goblins and squigs can do good, but only if they stick around. Tarpits and killy units that break on the first round don't do the job. But stubborn on a 9 with a re-roll lets them do their job. 3 rounds of HTH with 6 wide squigs takes the fight out of most units.)
4661
Post by: Minsc
Speaking of which, I need to get some more Squigs. Have only three herds now, very little reason to double that: 180pts of Special for 30 models, 18 of which are WS4 S5 A2? Not the best flankers, still limited by Animosity too, but can do some hurt none the less.
EDIT: Regardless, many armies are now using - from what I've seen - a composition similar to as follows:
Wizard Lord
General-Lord if capable, otherwise Wizard Lord takes general role
BSB
2 Wizard Heroes
Rest of points to buff units with char's
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
Pappa Shango wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Remember being armed with a Hand weapon and Shield gives 6+ or +1 ward save)
No it doesnt.
It gives +1 to armor save and a 6+ ward save that doesnt stack
So if you have heavy armor, with hand weapon and shield and your fighting from the front (not from the flank or rear)
You get a 4+ armor save, and a 6+ ward save, if you have a better ward save they dont stack.
Also you can only use hand weapon and shields if its your only equipment. Say you have great weapons, you no longer have that option, you must use your other equipment.
1426
Post by: Voodoo Boyz
mikhaila wrote:Voodoo Boyz wrote:Cheap heroes like that don't make all that much of an impact.
Sure they can be cheap, given a Great Weapon, and then they can hit hard in a Goblin block, but then you can kill them fairly easily with return attacks as they're still only WS4, T4, and no real armor to speak of.
Ludwig and I played last night. 2999 in orcs vs ogres. Hilarious game. He put a goblin warboss on a giant spider in his unit of 8 river trolls to herd them around. Several units of 30 orc archers, 35 black orcs, and sadly, he had the smaller units.) I put a butcher, slaughtermaster, tyrant, and bsb in a unit of 14 bulls, taking advantage of the horde rule and having all 18 ogres get attacks. Needless to say, his game plan changed when that went down. I think he was mumbling '...need more bolt throwers.....' for most of the night. His general unfortunately had the screaming sword, and chewed my tyrant up fast with +4 attacks and +4 str. 8 str9 attacks hurts. Another very fun game.
The little goblin heroes he ran were effective, but as you point out, die very easily.
I managed to look at some of the rules, and for the most part it seems like there are variations on pitched battle; nothing really about objectives.
That said, for 8th, it seems like "super units" are definitely in. It's almost impossible to redirect something like that with the new rules, where as before it was so simple. With the free-reform after combat, you can't even hold with a unit and then hope to have one turned at an odd angle to flank.
Nice, big, Resilient units like this really seem like the way to go.
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
If you tarpit a unit in combat they really cant reform that well.
They can expand frontage, but they cant remove models from b2b and they are still bound by certain rules. You say, cant do a right turn and face a scarrier unit and give the older unit your flank.
Bait and flee is a lot less effective, cause now after the failed charge you just reform to keep from being hit in the flank.
19279
Post by: Pappa Shango
Orlanth wrote:lixulana wrote:
0-25% lords
0-25% heroes
25%-max core
0-50% special
0-25% rare
you can not triple special/rare units
What gets me is the percentages for characters. I still think characters also need a number limit.
I agree limiting characters would be a good idea. Don't get me wrong loads of little heroes acting as a better champion than the normal unit champion would be better. Its just when it comes to loads and loads of cheap wizards with bound items. It will get a little messy.
Also the UK Tournament lists (normally 2K) has become harder to write for certain armies. For example you can't have a Gyro copter (140 points) and a Organ Gun (120) in the same army as the points limits won't let you.
9892
Post by: Flashman
Pappa Shango wrote:Orlanth wrote:lixulana wrote:
0-25% lords
0-25% heroes
25%-max core
0-50% special
0-25% rare
you can not triple special/rare units
What gets me is the percentages for characters. I still think characters also need a number limit.
I agree limiting characters would be a good idea. Don't get me wrong loads of little heroes acting as a better champion than the normal unit champion would be better. Its just when it comes to loads and loads of cheap wizards with bound items. It will get a little messy.
Also the UK Tournament lists (normally 2K) has become harder to write for certain armies. For example you can't have a Gyro copter (140 points) and a Organ Gun (120) in the same army as the points limits won't let you.
Your maths is off. 25% of 2000pts is 500pts. You could actually afford two Organ Guns and 1 Gyrocopter or vice versa.
284
Post by: Augustus
Melissia wrote:Huh, I might get into WFB with these changes. Looks promising...
Me too! I really like everything except pre measure, might as well be on a grid now.
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
Augustus wrote:Melissia wrote:Huh, I might get into WFB with these changes. Looks promising...
Me too! I really like everything except pre measure, might as well be on a grid now.
meh it hardly makes a difference now, with variable charges its not big. Also there are a bunch of ways to sneakishly measure before charges and what not anyway. Sure some ways require you to be an asshat, but its following the rules.
284
Post by: Augustus
Right and with no more guess weapons it doesn't bother me to much.
It's just an old school wargamers gripe. The reason to play on a terrained scale board, beyond visual spectacle, is to introduce the unknown. I suppose the charge dice does that regardless now.
17799
Post by: Oshova
I've played a few skirmish games that have had pre-measuring in them (due to this or that fluffwise) and if anything it just makes the game run a bit easier, I mean obviously there is an extent to it, such as not measuring the distance between each model every 5 minutes. But it just means that you don't end up screwing everything up just because of one little mistake, or misjudgement. It causes a slight decrease in general annoyance lol
Oshova
8052
Post by: Terminus
Augustus wrote:The reason to play on a terrained scale board, beyond visual spectacle, is to introduce the unknown.
Right, until you've played on the board once or twice and have a general idea of distances based on landmarks (or just flat-out remembering the distances from previous games' measurements).
6902
Post by: skrulnik
I got a look at the book the other day.
Pure Speculation. But I think the High Elf statues are going to be a kit. The pic with all the Corsair boats. The Lions and Elf statues all look identical. Similar to the SM statue stuff we saw before Honoured Imperium came out.
Also, those Dark Elf Corsair ships look identical to each other. Could these be another kit? Ships seem to make sense for Dark Elves big kit, if GW are going to do this.
My impression of the book was that it had a lot of cool stuff. But about 200 pages of unnecessary padding. I feel they did this to up-charge the book.
Background is good. A 20+pg profile of a Chaos incursion I've never heard of is padding.
The WotR book is huge, and cost $60. But it had all the lists for the game, and scenarios, and some background.
This book has 125pgs of rules, and the rest, outside of a few scenarios, could have been a separate book.
27447
Post by: ShivanAngel
The only thing premeasuring and no guess weapons does is help bridge the gap between veteran players, and new players to the game.
When i first started i was very put off by guess weapons because they were almost never worth their points cause i just missed all the time. Eventually i just practiced a few times a week guessing random distances and got very good at them. Same with charge ranges.
In all honesty some might consider this skill, however, i consider this more of a barrier to entry into warhammer. This will not effect veteran players at all, and will help newer players who had trouble with this phase of the game. The veteran player is still at an advantage just because of knowing how to move, bait, flank, multi charge, unit priority, the list goes on. This just removes a small element.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
skrulnik wrote:Pure Speculation. But I think the High Elf statues are going to be a kit. The pic with all the Corsair boats. The Lions and Elf statues all look identical. Similar to the SM statue stuff we saw before Honoured Imperium came out.
Also, those Dark Elf Corsair ships look identical to each other. Could these be another kit? Ships seem to make sense for Dark Elves big kit, if GW are going to do this.
The Lions are 3-up-copies from the HE chariot, the statues are 3-up-copies of a Dire-Avenger-bit, the Corsair ships look to simple for a future release (old Chaos Dragon head at the front?).
That said, the terrain guys use a lot of ad-hoc casts. If they only sold some of these.
BTW, I will use this Ziterdes ship for my Dark Elves:
http://www.ziterdes.de/ziterdes/en/produkte/article_detail.php?we_objectID=2766632&catID=72&subcatID=85
skrulnik wrote:My impression of the book was that it had a lot of cool stuff. But about 200 pages of unnecessary padding. I feel they did this to up-charge the book.
Background is good. A 20+pg profile of a Chaos incursion I've never heard of is padding.
The WotR book is huge, and cost $60. But it had all the lists for the game, and scenarios, and some background.
This book has 125pgs of rules, and the rest, outside of a few scenarios, could have been a separate book.
... that the main target customers wouldn't buy.
And it is 30 pages of pure and essential scenarios and further 60 pages on how to do your own scenarios/legendary battles/campaigns. No serious gamer should miss that. IMHO the book is worth every penny and succeeds in creating interest and enthusiasm in beginner as well as veteran.
6902
Post by: skrulnik
The Lions are not 3 up copies. Look at the tail. the tails on my chariot lions are behind and away from the body.
The statues have the tail wrapped to the body tightly, as you would expect of a statue.
Fair enough on the Corsair ships. But I didn't recognize the figureheads.
21659
Post by: Mattbranb
Did anyone notice in the latest WD where they allowed Warriors of Chaos Tzeentch to stack their ward save on top of their shield parry, giving them a 3+, 5+ in HTH? I know WD is a bad place to base stuff off, but the thought of large blocks of Tzeentch guys with a 3+/3+ ward (assuming you roll good with a warshrine) just scares me.
Is it me or are they building towards 3000 points being the new standard?
21604
Post by: Killjoy00
I think that's because the mark of Tz specifically says it increases whatever ward save you have, unlike most ward saves.
3809
Post by: Zad Fnark
I don't know if I like the shield bonus becoming a Ward save. It sort of flies in the face of the "supernatural-ness" that a ward save is supposed to be.
In the end, it is a slight boost to the warrior using it, due to it's not being stopped by high strength attacks, but can you imagine an Empire State Troop blunting Kholek's magic hammer?
ZF-
3330
Post by: Kirasu
Get wizard who can ignore miscasts somehow + power scroll + 6 dice + bironas timewarp on your entire army
Move up.. if youre charged so what you got ASF and +1 attack that they cant dispel. Next turn any unit with MV 5 or higher now has MV 10 to charge with
If you have enough dice go ahead and cast the -1 to hit on a unit or all your units as well!
So many silly combos with a power scroll
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Look here: Fantasy Flight Games advertises the upcoming 8th edition of Warhammer:
Warhammer 8th Edition Fantasy Release July 10
A time of great change is upon us. The Winds of Magic are boiling over from the north. The Empire is beset on all sides by the enemies of its forefathers. The lands of Bretonnia are rife with intrigue. The Elves continue to wage their embittered civil war. The Dwarven Book of Grudges continues to burst at the seams with misdeeds recorded by hand. Bring forth your armies, sharpen your swords, and make battle as you see fit, for Warhammer Fantasy Battles 8th Edition is upon us!
Come into Fantasy Flight Games'' Event Center to pick up your copy of the newest edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles on July 10th, and while you're here, take part in the numerous events we have planned for you. Do you fancy yourself a quick and masterful assembler of models? Then prepare to throw down with other like-minded individuals. Enter our speed painting competition, or our banner design contest. Make sure to bring in 500 points of miniatures so we can give you a quick play-through of a couple of turns in the new edition. Or get involved in the mega battle in the afternoon that will give you the full feel of the tumultuous battles that happen throughout the Old World.
The new play style offers a quicker, grittier battle between you and your opponent. The risks and rewards of magic are far greater than before. Volleys of fire can finally decimate the enemy as war always intended it too. Powerful leaders take to the battlefield and bring mighty powers down upon the heads of the common soldier. Come in on July 10th and experience all of the changes that await you in Warhammer Fantasy Battles 8th edition.
Linky
Must be the first non- GW-internal advertisment for 20 years
|
|
