What do you think is the most useless unit from a gaming viewpoint? Which unit is so terrible that you wonder why GW ever included it in the game? I'm talking strictly from a gaming and tactical viewpoint, regardless of the actual model or the army.

I think it has to be Chaos Spawn: An ok profile, yet completly ruined by their random movement towards the closest enemy, and random number of attacks and pitiful save.

What's your opinions on the most useless unit?

Primaris psyker unless I've missed something anyway, why the hell include a supposedly powerful psyker and yet allow him no psychic defence, pitiful, oh and storm troopers.

Ogryn. Supposedly uber-tough humanoids, the IG assault element. But they're going to lose, and lose badly to any true hth unit and with their low leadership, they're gone.

Storm troopers are overcosted, but at least they can be useful as suicide deep striking melta units. Altho that finction can be performed better by valk/vend meltavets.

Pariahs. Over priced, don't count as necrons and only have one attack. Makes them a points sink in aNecron army and resultantly are taken by few (if any) players

We're not tlaking about useless units. But the MOST useless unit. Which is, without a shadow of a doubt, Repentia.

Space Pope.

Stomboyz - overpriced and you can field the same amount in a battlewagon for the same speed

It has to be a Tau Ethereal, they do nothing good and give the other player a chance to make your units run.

This has happened before, Space Pope won hands down. Use the Search function...

Pfeh, I think the space pope's at least more useful than Repentia.

4M2A wrote:It has to be a Tau Ethereal, they do nothing good and give the other player a chance to make your units run.

In big games, they can actually be quite useful if they sit in cover on an objective with a 12 man bs4 fire warrior squad

No, Repentia are fine. Its most useless overall, not "most useless Sisters of Battle unit, not compared to any other army list unit entry ever"

I'm talking strictly from a gaming and tactical viewpoint, regardless of the actual model or the army.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:No, Repentia are fine. Its most useless overall, not "most useless Sisters of Battle unit, not compared to any other army list unit entry ever"

I'm talking strictly from a gaming and tactical viewpoint, regardless of the actual model or the army.

Repentia are useless in the context of every other army save one specific army using one specific special character. They are not, and have never, EVER been "fine". Ridiculously expensive, easy to kill, hard to control, cannot be joined by an IC, cannot ride in transports, and did I mention easy to kill? There's no redeeming feature in the squad. Even if they get into close combat they're often dsetroyed by their targets because they always strike last, and therefor recieve a lot of casualties... and they're fearless, so they are going to suffer even more for it normally, any real dedicated close combat squad is going to tear them apart before they can bring their eviscerators to bear, and any non-dedicated squad can be dealt with by Seraphim, who are more survivable, more mobile, more controllable, and just overall better in every way.

Even with that one special C:IG character-- and many tournaments don't even allow allies to begin with-- they're still mediocre.

NO! Everyone knows that the Most Useless Unit award has to go to something out of the DE codex.
Hellions are the most utterly useless crap in the entire game in the fact that they basically do everything jetbikes do, but worse.
Mandrakes, also due to their utterly terrible offense and defense, and the fact that the stealthy deployment doesn't really scare *anyone* due to them being Guardsmen with pistol/cc weapon.

Greetz,
Mr. Self Destruct

Melissia wrote:Repentia are useless in the context of every other army save one specific army using one specific special character. They are not, and have never, EVER been "fine". Ridiculously expensive, easy to kill, hard to control, cannot be joined by an IC, cannot ride in transports, and did I mention easy to kill? There's no redeeming feature in the squad. Even if they get into close combat they're often dsetroyed by their targets because they always strike last, and therefor recieve a lot of casualties... and they're fearless, so they are going to suffer even more for it normally, any real dedicated close combat squad is going to tear them apart before they can bring their eviscerators to bear, and any non-dedicated squad can be dealt with by Seraphim, who are more survivable, more mobile, more controllable, and just overall better in every way.

Even with that one special C:IG character-- and many tournaments don't even allow allies to begin with-- they're still mediocre.

Repentia are better then...

Mandrakes

The Decapitator
(The above two cannot be deployed in 1 of 3 game missions in 5th edition, and even in the two that you CAN take them, you'd be hard pressed finding a reason actually TO take them)

Hellions

Grotesques

Firewarriors

Space Pope

Codex: Necron (except the Monolith)

Biovores

Weird Boyz

Flash Gitz

Chaos Spawn

Ahriman (Debateable)

the list goes on.

Just because they are the 'worst' choice in your codex, does not make them the most useless.

Yes Seraphim are better and thus make Repentia a far less attractive choice in a which hunters army, but to list repentia as "The most useless unit in 40K" for that reason would be like saying Tac marines are the most useless unit in 40k when in a BA army because Assault marines are "so much better".

Well, I think the Wierdboy is almost more useless than the Ethereal, but if your lucky enough to get the power you wanted he can actually be good.

I actually agree with stormboyz since theres almost no reason at all to take them. As the_ferret said, you could just take boys in a wagon, same speed, more durability.

Ok what/who is the space pope?

Melissia believes that the Sisters must be best at everything, even being bad.

On-topic, the Space Pope and Necron Pariahs both have the same flaw.

Not only do they have a negligable upside - but they have a BIG downside that affects not only themselves, but the whole army.

It's this that makes a unit 'the worst'. Not Points cost, or stats etc. Most units have no army-wide downside at all other than points cost - but some have the capacity to make other parts of your army perform worse, just bey sharing a table with them.

Chaos Dreds sometimes flip out and kill your own soldiers, but even that's not an army-wide thing. There is an upper limit to the number of friendly models a chaos dred can kill in one game.

The very worst units in the game can cripple your whole dammned force.

Etherials die easilly and then your army runs away - Pariahs, since they don't have the Necron rule, make Phase Out easier.

The potential downsides are so large and so likely to occur that the small upsides are irrelevant. One wouldn't field an etherial if the model was free and made of solid gold.

Azezel wrote:Melissia believes that the Sisters must be best at everything, even being bad.

Now that is not entirely fair... Many sisters (and non sisters) players agree that Repentia could definately use some attention if one were to ever hope to consider them competitve, but the important thing to remember is that "Worst in Dex" is not always "Worst in game"... Eldar have some pretty terrible unit choices as well, but are they the worst ever? Far from it as long as dexs like Dark Eldar, Necron and Tau remain un-updated.

Kilkrazy wrote:Space Pope.

Damn I was going to say that too................. seriously WTF where they thinking when they wrote the rules for him and his kind?

No they aren't, for the following reasons:

1 and 2: They can at least be controlled and gain a massive boost to cover saves, making them more survivable than Repentia. And they cost less than Repentia. Admittedly I don't know too much about the IC, but even just a cursory glance at his rules makes me like him more than Repentia.

3: Much more mobile, able to hit and run, able to be controlled. And they cost less than Repentia.

4: Easier to control, powerful special rule, can be transported, can be taken in smaller squads. And they cost less than Repentia.

5: Hah. Wait, you're serious? How unfortunate. But Fire Warriors of equal cost will decimate a Repentia squad before it gets into close combat, and even do some damage to them after getting in to close combat. And they're scoring.

6: If you mean the IC, he's cheap and provides a bonus to the army, is decent enough in close combat (compared to othr Tau anyway), and comes with a retinue of BS4 fire warriors. If you mean the SC, then he isn't that good individually-- but he provides quite a good bonus for the army . And if he's killed, you're either screwed or your army becomes even more powerful. Randomly good is still better than never good.

7: No.

8: Cheap, long-ranged, mobile AP4 large blasts are actually quite good. The main issue is mostly that just about every other heavy support choice is better, not that this one is bad. Even three of them is cheaper than a half sized squad of Repentia, and can decimate a repentia squad in a single round of shooting at long range.

9: They're actually quite good, as my experience in using them is. The problem is that Mekboyz tend to be a bit better because of synergy with the rest of the army. But Warp'Ead Weirdboyz are still quite useful in my experience, and can turn the tide of battle with proper luck. Randomly being good is better than never being good. Oh, and he's cheaper than even a bare minimum squad of Repentiia is.

10: While expensive for what you get, Flash Gitz aren't the worst unit, and certainly not worse than repentia. Indeed, if they got the assault they would rip repentia apart in close combat, after doing some damage in ranged combat (which repentia can't do). There are better units in the Ork codex, but it's still better than Repentia.

11: Spawn DO compete with Repentia for worst unit ever given their ridiculous price for what they do. Certainly a lot better than the space pope.

12: Ahriman is outclassed by newer psykers, but still strong.

13: You are right. They are useless because they are useless, nto because they're the worst in this codex. The two statements are true, but not connected.

jbunny wrote:Ok what/who is the space pope?

I still think Chaos Spawn are supreme in this category of fail.

After looking at it, I'd concede that. They're the only unit I can think of that makes Repentia look good.

I'm going to have to counter your Repentia with Pyrovores.

For 45 points you get a heavy flamer that can potentially explode inside your own army. Get him in close combat? Sweet, he ignores armor saves.... with his 1 attack at initiative 1.

All in all, worst model ever.

Actually that heavy flamer could very well wipe out the entire Repentia unit in one turn-- and any surviving Repentia that wound it are dead due to Acid Blood.

Though Volatile really hurts the unit...

Still going to argue with the Ethereal/Space Pope. They are expensive, have crap attacks, no power weapons (a + to the S of a TAU WHOHOO!) and when they die, the WHOLE ARMY has to take a leadership test?!? Does anyone remember that Tau have a bad leadership to begin with?

i'm still of the opinion that a 10 man unit of vanguard with jump packs, dual wielding thunderhammers, is the most useless unit in the game. weighing in at 950 points or so, and loosing in hand to hand against any unit packing enough power swords, or even enough power fists (dual unit loss), though its easy enough to shoot them down before they do any damage at all.

Not even close Honersstodnt, not even close. Sure they might not be a cost effective unit, but in the right circumstances, they can still CREAM things. The Ethereals/Pope cant say any of those ever.

For example they will murder tanks like no bodies business

sure, they may be able to cream things, but they are SO cost inefficient, that they actively reduce the size of the rest of your army by a huge margin.

While the space pope may be useless, you can try to just hide the bugger in the back, and surround him with firewarriors. Useless, maybe. I'd still put my money on a tau army at 1000 points packing nothing but a space pope and ANY basic troop choices from the tau codex, over a 10 man squad of vanguard with hammers like this.

Doesnt matter how un cost effective a unit is, if it can murder important units as easy as you breathe, they arnt the most useless unit in the game. A greater demon against your unit, will cry to its mommy, tanks, for get it. You see my point?

Ethereals cant kill anything without lucky dice rolls, and unlucky armor saves. And did I mention that whole thing about AN ENTIRE ARMY LD TEST? They have bad LD man, its just a nightmare waiting to happen. Oh and they die easy cheesy as well.....so again.....SPACE POPES

a greater daemon, against the thunderhammer unit I mentioned, will come out ahead of the game in terms of points. with each marine in the squad at nearly 100 points, the daemon will likely kill 2-3 before they can swing.

say the half the tau army flees off the table. Gee, 500 points of firewarriors, i'd still say the remaining 500 points of fire warriors would kill the vanguard. a single 10 man squad, rapid firing, will get 8 wounds or so, and probably kill 3 marines. Again, thats super cost effective. Hell, even in HAND TO HAND, if the MARINES CHARGED the firewarriors, a 10 man squad will still likely come out ahead of the vanguard point for point (10 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds, probably a fail in there)

Sure itll kill 2ish marines out of the ten, but then he goes down. Period.

The Ethereal itself, sucks horribly, cant kill anything and has a decent enough chance of basically killing off your own army. Why are you arguing with this? Its one mini. One! That could easy off half your army on its own

scouts are useless -.-

Asherian Command wrote:scouts are useless -.-

lol You made me laugh

well, i'm just saying, even though the ethereal is crap, he's not very expensive crap. (he's less than 100 points, right?)

Any army that includes an ethereal can still hope to win a game.

Any army that includes a 1000 point squad of vanguard, cannot hope to win, because in ANY situation, against ANY unit, they are not points-effective. ever.

Im going to vote Repentia... just so Melissia quiets down about it...

Useless units are useless.

Much like opinions, and nether-holes, everyone has one, and they all stink.

I rather take an tactical squad. Scout squads are just guardsmen.

Honersstodnt wrote:i'm still of the opinion that a 10 man unit of vanguard with jump packs, dual wielding thunderhammers, is the most useless unit in the game. weighing in at 950 points or so, and loosing in hand to hand against any unit packing enough power swords, or even enough power fists (dual unit loss), though its easy enough to shoot them down before they do any damage at all.

I mean, couldn't the same thing be said about an equal sized unit of Death Company? They function exactally the same, cost more, have rage, and can't assualt the turn they deep strike.

Quite contrary, BA Vanguard vets scatter 1d6, can heroic intervene and take out a ~600 LRBT Squadron, or perhaps more depending on the guard players layout and multi-assualt capabilities.

I mean, if we are allowed to outfit the unit with stupid wargear/tactical selections then one could argue that an archon sqaud is the most useless if you outfitted it with a Crucible, nightmare doll, webway portal, soulseeker ammo. 8 incubi (two with shredders) one master and one Drazor, the master has a webway portal, soulseeker ammo, an agoniser, and a xenospasm.

This squad costs 613 points, and has to foot slog (no Fleet remember) across the board, and bits the big one from a single battle cannon.... Useless in this sense yes, but is it the most useless unit in the game? Hardly.

yes, a similar unit of death company (10 man with jump packs) is equally useless, though they DO have FNP, so they might be able to survive against things like tau in hand to hand.

as to your archon unit, the way I compare useless units is to ask myself, if it would beat another useless unit point for point if its in the same category (big crazy expensive deathstars at this point)... and your archon squad would WIPE OUT the death company or vanguard... they can shoot, AND they have enough power weapons to put down the marines before they can swing those nasty hammers.

against a squad of 3 russes, i'd imagine the russes would be moving beforehand, as they'd expect a unit of hammer vanguard to go after them... they'd come in, and if they didn't mishap, get 40 TH attacks... of that, 7 hit, of those, 3 penetrate, 1 glances. odds are good that the russes would loose 1, maybe 2... then the entire guard army would wipe em off the board :(

Honersstodnt wrote:well, i'm just saying, even though the ethereal is crap, he's not very expensive crap. (he's less than 100 points, right?)

IIRC, he's somewhere closer to fifty five.


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Asherian Command wrote:I rather take an tactical squad. Scout squads are just guardsmen.

Have you ever SEEN a Guard codex?

Guard players would LOVE for their infantry to have the Scout statline! The only reason Guard even MIGHT be considered better is because they're cheaper, but the reason they're cheaper is because they're WORSE. Lower strength, lower toughness, lower armor save, worse equipment, worse leadership, lower leardership, fewer special rules, etc etc etc etc etc.

Chaos Spawn probably top the list. Even when you get them for free with Gift they're a free kill point for your opponent.

Pyrovores are an impressively worthless unit, if they're anywhere near your army they're more dangerous to you. And if they're not near your army then the opponent can just ignore them and they'll do nothing.

Screamers of Tzeentch are also pretty terrible. Hell yes one melta bomb attack for a silly price that dies to anything that looks at it and can't hurt anything that isn't a vehicle.

And yes Repentia are godawful too!

Like Azezel said, for it to be the worst unit (personally), the unit has to affect the entire army with its downside.

Also, I believe that this thread is most useless unit, not most useless unit configuration; otherwise, I could probably raise you with a Farsight crisis suit bodyguard team equipped with every hard-wired thing in the Tau armoury - which would come around to OVER a thousand in points; yet would still have the same weakness as the vanguard (in fact worse, as they are more vulnerable in CC, being, y'know, *Tau*).

So the choices so far seem to be Repentia, Space Pope/Bishops, Pariahs, and a DE unit (I don't know the CE that well, but they probably have a fair contender).

Repentia; their upside; good vs tanks and heavy elite units (eg. Termies), can be large number, fast (holy rage).
downside; bit expensive, vulnerable to incoming attack s (can be mitigated by number ratios)
Use: against Tanks and terminators, staying away from volume of firepower/close combat attacks.

Space Pope/Bishops: Upside; make army more sturdy, allow BS4 FWs, (Bishop) cheap for a HQ
Downsides: Very vulnerable to combat, Bishop vulnerable to shooting (low wounds and Toughness). When killed, half your army flees.
Use: In a fireline, protected by friends, in LOS of everyone.

Pariahs: Upside; Great against psykers, warscythes
Downside; one attack (elite unit!), weak armour for cost, expensive (almost termy cost, with being over twice as vulnerable to attacks), count for phase-out

DE Unit: I'm including these to point out something. As far as I know, there is no DE unit that has an army-wide affecting downside. Unless someone wants to make me aware of one, I'm discounting the codex from (my) choice of most useless unit.

Overall
THIRD PLACE:The Repentia are bad, but they do have uses; they're good against tanks&Termies (or rather, tanks and tank-armoured things ). They are also fairly fast, which can be useful. They are expensive for their toughness, but many units are (Eldar come to mind). Most importantly however, they don't have an army-wide downside (other than a couple-of-hundred points spent, which an average 1500-point army can win without).
SECOND PLACE: Pariahs. Expensive for their offensive power and toughness. They are good against psykers and (kind of) against Terminators. Also, they contribute to phase-out despite being less survivable than Warriors half their cost. The only reason they are not First is because the winner affects more of the army.
FIRST PLACE: The Space Papacy, on the other hand, give mostly a morale boost to the army. That may or may not be useful, of course (I have seen Tau played so that a unit gets charged then falls back to re-shoot them enemy next turn), but that's situational. The only reason they are in first place is the one main downside; the fact that almost half the army then runs away after they die. That means that in a 1500 point fireline army (what these are best in), maybe 500-700 points will run. That's alot, especially considering firelines often deploy close to the edge, and even one turn of lost shooting for a fireline Tau army is deadly for them.

Well, that's my opinion.
Oh, and whoever said that the Space Papacy is better in large battles? That means that the enemy has alot more artillery, deepstrikers and outflankers. All of which can kill that frail guy hiding in the back. And, being a larger army, you then lose more points from that one guy's death.

I cannot see her posts, but I see it in the quotes!

Space pope does nothing but hurt the army.

"But! But! But! I want to talk about sisters!"

fireball909 wrote:Repentia; their upside; good vs tanks and heavy elite units (eg. Termies), can be large number, fast (holy rage).
downside; bit expensive, vulnerable to incoming attack s (can be mitigated by number ratios)
Use: against Tanks and terminators, staying away from volume of firepower/close combat attacks.

Twin Lightning Claw termies will tear repentia apart with ease. While they MIGHT be good against TH/SS, it's easy to mitigate this precisely BECAUSE of holy rage. They charge towards the closest unit, not the unit which you want them to charge at. Basically, against anything that isn't initiative 1, Repentia suck in close combat against. T3 with a 4+ save means they can be given far more wounds than they can give, once they're whittled down, and being fearless they are going to suffer more casualties because of losing combat. And a full squad of them is more than 400 points, by the way...

Jesus Melissia, you REALLY have to let everyone know how terrible your unit choice is dont you? Cant you just agree to disagree? I mean, really, they can beat the tar out of any ethereal in any situation, add the incredible "RUN FOR YOUR fething LIVES THE ETHEREAL DIED!!!!!!" army wide LD save, Im pretty sure your choice is better then the most useless.

I think Fireball909 hit the nail on the head with his post

That is what this thread is about, yes?

After looking at the spawn, I concur that repentia aren't the absolute worst unit in the game, but I still think the "space pope" isn't quite as bad as he's made out to be.

By far the space pope

I don't have my codex at work, so I may be off on a few things, but here is why the Space Pope (Aun'va) is the worst unit in the game:

1. costs over 200 points.
2. Can't take the BS 4 Firewarriors, instead has to take two Ethereal's to guard him (fail) Which means he can't join a larger unit
3. Has no armor save, instead having a Re-Rollable cover save. Thunderfire cannon Ho!
4. T3
5. Ultimate Price of Failure: He dies and the rest of the army deserts

Yes, but you also have to list the plus points of Space Pope, which are:

1. He has a cool floating Space Chair.
2. Two bodyguards who are nearly as good as an Ork Boy in combat.
3. Er...
4. That's it.

I thought people were talking about the standard ethereal. Guess I was wrong, heh. Damn, they actually made a special character who's WS1?

Space Pope is no ordinary Ethereal!

Honersstodnt wrote:sure, they may be able to cream things, but they are SO cost inefficient, that they actively reduce the size of the rest of your army by a huge margin.

While the space pope may be useless, you can try to just hide the bugger in the back, and surround him with firewarriors. Useless, maybe. I'd still put my money on a tau army at 1000 points packing nothing but a space pope and ANY basic troop choices from the tau codex, over a 10 man squad of vanguard with hammers like this.

Can't we just go all in and take 30 Death Company with dual hammers then?

Fire Warrior

Spawn cost me an Ard Boyz round one year They're not bad tanking an isolated MC. They're not great either, but they're not the worst IMO. The Winged DPs of Nurgle felt confident being in the cover of the trees that blocked 50% of their bodies... til each got charged by a separate full squad of spawn on turn 2. Kept them tied down for a long, annoying while

fireball909 wrote:
FIRST PLACE: The Space Papacy, on the other hand, give mostly a morale boost to the army. That may or may not be useful, of course (I have seen Tau played so that a unit gets charged then falls back to re-shoot them enemy next turn), but that's situational. The only reason they are in first place is the one main downside; the fact that almost half the army then runs away after they die. That means that in a 1500 point fireline army (what these are best in), maybe 500-700 points will run. That's alot, especially considering firelines often deploy close to the edge, and even one turn of lost shooting for a fireline Tau army is deadly for them.

Ah, but that doesn't fully cover the suckitude of the Space Pope.

Regular Ethereal lets the Tau units within LOS to reroll their morale checks. Also, Tau units joined by Ethereal become Fearless, which can also be useful if you don't take Honour Guard (which in itself isn't that bad). Of course, there is the major down side of your army possibly running off the table, but that only concerns actual Tau units, not Kroot etc. So you see, while bad, regular Ethereals can actually serve useful purpose (sometimes) and they're not that expensive.

Aun'va, on the other hand, is not an IC so he cannot join any other units. He does not grant rerolls and he has same down side as the regular Ethereal. Only thing he does is to grant Tau units Stubborn - and if you look up what Stubborn does, it is usually bad for Tau! So you see, with the Space Pope, you are paying 200+ points from an unit which is not only useless but actually causes signifant handicap to your army and takes up perfectly good space which could be used for something more useful, like Gretchin garbage dump heap. Yes, give me Repentia or Chaos Spawn any day.

to- Cannerus_The_Unbearable
    I'm surprised they didn't get completely mulched by fearless wounds. Did they manage to knock any wounds on the Demon Princes? Do you remember the DP builds?

to- Backfire
    When would Stubborn be bad for tau?

The Etheral, hands down.

Asherian Command wrote:I rather take an tactical squad. Scout squads are just guardsmen.

I once saw a unit of scouts knock out a wraithlord and an entire squadron of war walkers, all hiding in 2+ cover (with stealth of course).

to- Backfire
    When would Stubborn be bad for tau?

Space Pope by miles.

Pyrovores, tyranic war-veterans, vespid sting-wings, chaos dreadnoughts, chaos sorcerers (Meh), venomthropes, and lard raider promethiuses (meh,overpriced and too-heavy


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Asherian Command wrote:I rather take an tactical squad. Scout squads are just guardsmen.

SM scouts are so far better than Guardsmen, I could laugh!

Any unit handled by me on the tabletop is p useless...

From the two codexes i have read (Ork + CSM) id say chaos spawn.

Scout-15 points +1S +1T +1Sv +1Ld

Guardsmen-5 points

Hmm...

While scouts can get some unique weapons, guardsmen can get flamers & meltas...

You're forgetting the Scout Marine special rule list: Combat Tactics, Combat Squads, ATSKNF, Infiltrate, Move THrough Cover, and Scouts.

Melissia wrote:You're forgetting the Scout Marine special rule list: Combat Tactics, Combat Squads, ATSKNF, Infiltrate, Move THrough Cover, and Scouts.

YEEssh.

Also, they get a Bolt Pistol and Bolter by default, and can exchange the bolter for a CCW, shotgun, or sniper rifle for free. And they get frag and krak grenades for free.

Guardsmen get a Lasgun and CCW by default. The latter is useless and does not effect stats in any way, and they cannot exchange their Lasgun for a Laspistol.


Seriously, scouts get a LOT of stuff for what you're paying.

Scouts are far from useless.

Camcloaks, snipers, heavy weapon, infiltrate on an objective and sit there all game collecting 2+ cover saves. That's a potential game winner right there.


This discussion comes up every so often. My point is always that most units people consider "bad" are just either overpriced or competing with a better unit at that role in their own codex. Only a few units actively negatively impact your army if taken;

daemon host
witch hunters priest
space pope

Of those three very special terrible units priests are needed to unlock stuff for witchunters and the daemonhost is at least fun. Space Pope however is just bad with no upside whatsoever.

Space pope is lolz

Actually, Repentia DO negatively effect a Sisters list if taken, because of the strange synergy between Sisters units. Any points not dedicated towards adding another Faithful unit to the list negatively effects the army, and Repentia are a lot of points. The only army with a similar synergy would probably be Necrons (due to Phase Out).

Though I still think standard Ethereals are nowhere near the worst choice, I'm convinced that the special character one is indeed the worst.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Scouts are far from useless.

Camcloaks, snipers, heavy weapon, infiltrate on an objective and sit there all game collecting 2+ cover saves. That's a potential game winner right there.


This discussion comes up every so often. My point is always that most units people consider "bad" are just either overpriced or competing with a better unit at that role in their own codex. Only a few units actively negatively impact your army if taken;

daemon host
witch hunters priest
space pope

Of those three very special terrible units priests are needed to unlock stuff for witchunters and the daemonhost is at least fun. Space Pope however is just bad with no upside whatsoever.

Didn't mean to imply that they were useless.

Pound for pound though, I feel that guardsmen are more of an asset.

I can't see melissia's post, though...

Repentias are 100% not worse than the space pope, I saw that "They affect synergy" or some such non-sense... "Sisters is what we should talk about!!"

The space pope DIRECTLY impacts them.

Ok im not a noob But who is the freaking space pope??

Aun'Va, the Ethereal special character.

Space pope is the 205 point waste of an HQ slot for tau.

I believe kilkrazy posted a picture on page one or two.

I think we all agree Aun'Va is the most terrible thing to ever grace a Codex. Terrible in any form of combat, his "benefits" hurt the army and his downsides REALLY hurt the army. Guess what happens if you don't run away after Space Pope dies? You get fethin' CC bonuses. Oooh, Fire warriors with Furious charge! Genius! Maybe, MAYBE Crisis suits with Furious charge could punch tanks. But that's what GUNS are for. Maybe if Aun'va and Farsight could be in the same army, Farsight could take advantage of furious charge with his sword. Nope, not allowed. Total, and utter, FAIL.

As for second worst unit... I think I'll go with Pyrovores. If he's anywhere near your lines, and dies, you die. If he gets into CC, he dies. Sure, he can get a nice flamer off if someone happens to stroll into range... but anyone with a brain who sees a large red monster traipsing slowly towards their lines will shoot it turn 1 or 2. It'll die (it's terrible) and it will melt your own troops. So, not only is it overpriced, but the situations where it will be effective are so rare and improbable as to be almost nil.

Repentia merely are expensive and useless. Same with a heckuva lot of other units in other codices. MOST useless methinks depends on units whose very existence threatens your other troops on the board. Repentia can't stab your own units in the face if they die. Thus, I'd scrath them off the list.

What about squigs?

WS-4
BS-0
S-3
T-2
W-1
I-3
A-1
Ld-5
Sv-0

Oh, they also have no special rules.

but squigs are cute and they look like gum balls with legs

Pyrovores are only to be used as a Spodding distraction for a turn.

Melissia wrote:
Have you ever SEEN a Guard codex?

Guard players would LOVE for their infantry to have the Scout statline! .

Have you ever seen the Marine codex?

Marine players would LOVE for their scouts to have the weapons options that vet units do!

halonachos wrote:What about squigs?

WS-4
BS-0
S-3
T-2
W-1
I-3
A-1
Ld-5
Sv-0

Oh, they also have no special rules.

You can't really have a unit of squigs though can you.

the only way to get a squig into 40k presently is to use zogworts curse, so its less a bad unit itself than a good aspect of zogwort.

Do i need to pull a Ace now... Hellions( are the most worthless unit in the game...) what the heck give them a rapid fire weapon so they cant charge...
the only saving grace is there +5 jink sav, there over priced and really dont have a spot in 40k any more....( last time i played with them was back in 3rd ed.)

Melissia wrote:We're not tlaking about useless units. But the MOST useless unit. Which is, without a shadow of a doubt, Repentia.

yep, this one.

They were supposed to be the SoB terminators but the chance to make then HAWT HAWT naughty schoolgirls in their ragged uniforms and bondage gear!

halonachos wrote:What about squigs?

WS-4
BS-0
S-3
T-2
W-1
I-3
A-1
Ld-5
Sv-0

Oh, they also have no special rules.

Since when is WS4 sucky? Thats a pretty highly trained Squig if you ask me. Besides Id argue that a Squig is one of the most important units to have. Why you ask? Oh simply because when you turn Calgar into a Squig, you have to have one to replace him . Boom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Im laughing at the thought of people really truly believing that scouts suck. Are they uber fantastic TH/SS terminator awesome? Nope, but they have really good stats, and have some really awesome weapons. Sure they arnt a fill all rolls type, but when used when they SHOULD be used, they can really kick your face in. Not to mention, that Telion can be placed with them, and last I checked the guy is a badass (not to mention his mini just screams conversion. Damn thats a cool mini)

Cadet_Commissar_Ludd wrote:

4M2A wrote:It has to be a Tau Ethereal, they do nothing good and give the other player a chance to make your units run.

In big games, they can actually be quite useful if they sit in cover on an objective with a 12 man bs4 fire warrior squad

Not really. HQ slots (retinue) can't claim objectives.

Space pope and ethereal seem to be a tie in my eyes. The only difference is one costs way more and as such is a bigger waste of points.

How about we compromise, now that I know what the space pope does gotta agree he's the worst.

200 points?!?

So let's call him the worst special character and sisters repentia the worst unit.

Sisters repentia trump hellions!

I should probably go change "most of my posts are tactical" to spam...

I gotta say Guardians just from my experience. No range, gak toughness, gak strength, gak save, way over priced compared to ork boyz who could beat the mess out of them, or Guardsmen who would rapid fire them to pieces before they could ever get close enough to shoot. What do they have going for them? Oh yeah a high initiative if they ever land a wound with their whopping S3 that might be useful... oh yeah, and an overpriced weapon platform you are forced to sink points into.

Guitardian wrote:I gotta say Guardians just from my experience. No range, gak toughness, gak strength, gak save, way over priced compared to ork boyz who could beat the mess out of them, or Guardsmen who would rapid fire them to pieces before they could ever get close enough to shoot. What do they have going for them? Oh yeah a high initiative if they ever land a wound with their whopping S3 that might be useful... oh yeah, and an overpriced weapon platform you are forced to sink points into.

But they aren't the worst unit in the game.

I still think people are overestimating Neophytes, Mandrakes and Warp Beasts, just to name a few.

And I think people are underestimating a ton of units.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:How about we compromise, now that I know what the space pope does gotta agree he's the worst.

200 points?!?

So let's call him the worst special character and sisters repentia the worst unit.

I can totally agree with that assessment. I dont have a SOB codex handy (my sister inlaw just bought it and plans on playing in the next few months, hurray for my group!) so I dont truly know how crappy the repentas are. But Im telling ya, Space pope is simply garbage, and EASILY the worst HQ AND Special Character in the game. Has to be pretty bad if he takes 2 categories.


How bout we change pace and argue whats the worst unit, in each FOC slot? So worst TROOPS (seems to be repentas?) worst FAST ATTACK, worst ELITE, worst HEAVY SUPPORT? Sorry to thread jack but lets try that one?

Repentia are elite. They're so bad, GW recognized taht they're bad and forbade you from taking any more than 0-1.

Dunno if they're the worst elites unit, but they're down there near the bottom of the pile. What effectively amounts to rage, no transports, ICs can't join them, not faithful (therefor reducing army synergy by taking up a lot of points that could have added to the army's faith point pool), always strikes at initiative 1, one attack each, they're fearless in close combat (which is a BAD thing compared to the Sisters' effective stubborn plus rule), they only have a 4+ save, and for all of this suckage for half as much as a terminator.

As for troops, I'd say grots...

For Fast Attack I'd say spawn...

For Heavy Support... hrm. Most HS choices are actually decent... if I had to pick one, Penitent Engines based on my experience. So expensive, yet so easy to crush.

HQ: Space pope!

Elite: "Let's talk about sisters of battle please!!"

Troops: Seems like each one has a niche...

Fast Attack: Tau Gun Drone Team ((The point of this unit is...? )) Or Hellions...

Heavy Support: Flash Gitz

I don't think Flash Gitz are actually useless. They're still nobz, even if they're nobz equipped for shooting.

They're not GOOD, but they are hardly the most useless one.

Feth all you insecure people, you are just too wimpy to accept you can't have as horrible of a unit as Hellions in your codex.
I'm sorry. Repentia can still rip gak up in combat, given the circumstances. Hellions are flying failboats with S4 and random drugs and OMG A 5+ INVUL OHMGOSH!!!!!
Yeah. And Flash Gitz aren't useless. Anything that can get AP1 is ok in my book.
Space Pope? I thought you meant this guy-http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat30046&prodId=prod1090114
Greetz,
Mr. Self Destruct

Grotz are very useful. They either act as a screen for the boyz (granted, they will die) or hold the fort and sit on the objective all game/

They are the star objective holders of the ork codex.

S_P

HQ: Space Pope

Elite: Pyrovore or Repentia... although I still give this to the Pyrovore. By the way Melissa, you keep saying Repentia are fearless in close combat, which I just don't see. Yes they pass all moral checks, but I see nothing about fearless so you wouldn't get the negatives of losing a CC as a fearless squad.

Troops: Nurglings or Rippers... kind of a toss up

Fast Attack: Either Drones or Helions

Heavy Support: Scourges, hands down.

Actually, Space Pope's main use is probably to force a quick retreat in gunlines. Get pope into assault just before the enemy gets into assault range with your firewarriors, have him keel over, and have your firewarriors get the hell out so they can regroup later. He still sucks ass, but it's a use.

I nominate the Culexus for worst elite. The investment required to make him useful is absurd.

The Culexus at least has some uses against specific builds of specific armies. Off the top of my head: Eldar with Warlocks abound, Tyranids (Tyrant, Tervigon, Broodlord, and Zonethropes), and Tzeentch CSM.

The Pyrovore on the other hand, is a 45 point heavy flamer... 45 points!

Shrike325 wrote:HQ: Space Pope

Elite: Pyrovore or Repentia... although I still give this to the Pyrovore. By the way Melissa, you keep saying Repentia are fearless in close combat, which I just don't see. Yes they pass all moral checks, but I see nothing about fearless so you wouldn't get the negatives of losing a CC as a fearless squad.

Troops: Nurglings or Rippers... kind of a toss up

Fast Attack: Either Drones or Helions

Heavy Support: Scourges, hands down.

I thought they FAQed it. But then the WH FAQ has gotten a few edits reverting things back, so I mgith just be remembering an older FAQ (Holy Hatred is another example). But yeah, you appear to be right.

Actually, you do suffer the negatives. Especially No Retreat.

The NR rule states:
It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule).


So the Repentias being able to always pass morale checks would trigger No Retreat.

Gwar! wrote:Actually, you do suffer the negatives. Especially No Retreat.

The NR rule states:
It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule).


So the Repentias being able to always pass morale checks would trigger No Retreat.

Touché Gwar. I suppose I should have actually looked at the NR rule. I always just assumed it was only for fearless models.

Just a question about no retreat, would that mean Iron Will would cause "No Retreat" wounds? It lets you choose whether to pass or fail, rather than being automatic.

Fafnir wrote:Just a question about no retreat, would that mean Iron Will would cause "No Retreat" wounds? It lets you choose whether to pass or fail, rather than being automatic.

Yes, it does cause no retreat as you are passing it automatically.

Or maybe you are not. It's unclear and a cause of a massive nerdrage argument.

Yes, it does cause no retreat as you are passing it automatically.

Or maybe you are not. It's unclear and a cause of a massive nerdrage argument.

I can see this definitely being a source of nerdrage; personally I find that it's one of the more stupider rulings I've found in INAT [of course, that's just my opinion which counts for exactly that]

You see, it's not automatically passing - it's choosing to pass. I define that differently [compare Fearless, eg.] & would assume that you would still, regardless of Iron Will, need a 2 to pass if you lost combat by 10 wounds. Then, Iron Will would kick in and you would still be able to choose to theoretically roll a ''2'' for that test, hence passing the test...

Whatever, there's so much sillyness in INAT that I'm pretty much resigned to accept it, despite my own opinions...

does that count as nerdrage? I didn't mean for it to be, but after this much imbibing I doubt I have any rational judgment left...

Gwar! wrote:Actually, you do suffer the negatives. Especially No Retreat.

The NR rule states:
It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or to automatically pass them for some reason (they may have the 'fearless' special rule, be subject to a vow or some other special rule).


So the Repentias being able to always pass morale checks would trigger No Retreat.

Huh. Looks like I was right in a roundabout way.

That's what we get for playing with outdated rules...

HQ: Space Pope / Zogwart

Elite: Mandrakes / Pyrovores

Fast Attack: Hellions / Scarab Swarms / CHAOS SPAWN*

Troops: Rippers / Necron Warriors(all things considered) / Nurglings

Heavy Support: Scourges / Purgation Squad / Looted Wagons-Big Gunz (tie there)

Over all:

Weakest Special Character: Space Pope (Decapitator in 2nd)

Weakest Unit: Mandrakes (Chaos Spawn* in 2nd)

Weakest Codex: Necrons (sadly, 2nd place is any/every non-5th edition codex)

*((IF PURCHASED NOT SUMMONED))

Sorry Mel, but in all honesty, the Lady-Gaga Marines really don't have that bad a selection to pick from, if anything, I would say the Retributors are the worst of the dex, as they require 2 Heavy Slots to make them viable (not to mention an ungodly amount of points for a 24inch "ranged" unit)

~DAR

Of Fast Attack choices, how about Vespids? Expensive, fragile, weak shooting, weak in close combat, no options whatsoever.

DAR, both Zogwort and Big gunz certainly are not the worst

Huh. The only use for the space pope invovles a conversion where you take him out of his chair and replace him with Yoda for coolness factor.

Remind me again - why does the Space Pope suck? I remember something about him being good to take... for your opponent!

He's too expensive and his bodyguard unit is two models which strike in close combat only.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:HQ: Space pope!

Elite: "Let's talk about sisters of battle please!!"

Troops: Seems like each one has a niche...

Fast Attack: Tau Gun Drone Team ((The point of this unit is...? )) Or Hellions...

Heavy Support: Flash Gitz

Melissia wrote:I don't think Flash Gitz are actually useless. They're still nobz, even if they're nobz equipped for shooting.

They're not GOOD, but they are hardly the most useless one.

I MIGHT agree with that as for a heavy support. I personally think the Gitz should of been elites, and LOOTAS be heavy. But they certainly dont suck. IVe been using them with varying success in my games. Stick them in a BW, DONT give them the gets hot upgrade, and they can really murders some units. They are certainly made for anti troop, which is a little off in a HEAVY SUPPORT choice, but what ever. Seriously they can hammer out the shots, and have a pretty decent chance to take out a whole tactical squad when the AP rolls are with you

halonachos wrote:What about squigs?

WS-4
BS-0
S-3
T-2
W-1
I-3
A-1
Ld-5
Sv-0

Oh, they also have no special rules.

....eh, they've got WS4.....Iguess

Samus_aran115 wrote:

halonachos wrote:What about squigs?

WS-4
BS-0
S-3
T-2
W-1
I-3
A-1
Ld-5
Sv-0

Oh, they also have no special rules.

....eh, they've got WS4.....Iguess

Beat ya too that joke a few pages back

Ha,ooops. Didn't pay attention.

Space Pope? They both seem equally adequate.....

the_ferrett wrote:DAR, both Zogwort and Big gunz certainly are not the worst

Thats more of "There are not that many bad HQs and Heavy Support options in w40k" as much as "Zoggy and Big gunz suck"

No doubt, they are phenominal compared to other things on the Worst list, but IMO Zogwort is one of the worst HQ choices(while still not one of the worst UNITS) to grace a codex.

It goes like this

Space Pope <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Zogwort << Everything else

Big guns are relatively weak compared to other HS options in 40k (I.E Land Raiders, Hammerheads, Daemon Princes, Defilers, etc)

Vespids would have *possibly* made the cut, but honestly, if we were gonna list all the bad FA choices, we would need a separate thread entirely.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

the_ferrett wrote:DAR, both Zogwort and Big gunz certainly are not the worst

Thats more of "There are not that many bad HQs and Heavy Support options in w40k" as much as "Zoggy and Big gunz suck"

No doubt, they are phenominal compared to other things on the Worst list, but IMO Zogwort is one of the worst HQ choices(while still not one of the worst UNITS) to grace a codex.

It goes like this

Space Pope <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Zogwort << Everything else

Big guns are relatively weak compared to other HS options in 40k (I.E Land Raiders, Hammerheads, Daemon Princes, Defilers, etc)

Vespids would have *possibly* made the cut, but honestly, if we were gonna list all the bad FA choices, we would need a separate thread entirely.

Yep.Chaos spawn would have to be a close second behind vespids for me.

Chaos dread. My friends all play chaos and i cant tell you how many times they have blown up his landraiders, flamered his men and just generally screwed them hard.
As for the nids codex, ripperswarms suck pretty bad.

sennacherib wrote:Chaos dread. My friends all play chaos and i cant tell you how many times they have blown up his landraiders, flamered his men and just generally screwed them hard.

No, this is one of the BETTER units in the game actually, your friend should learn to position his dread so that it is not facing his men and does not have his men between his opponent. Two plasma cannon shots +two frag/crak shots is NEVER a bad day.

Worst HQ-
Space Pope or Autarch would be high in the running

Worst Elite-
Biovore or Death Cult Assasins (both arguably the worst units in the game)

Worst Troop-
Hard one, but gotta go with Storm Guardians or Ripper Swarms

Worst Fast-
I see your hellions and raise you a Vyper and Swooping Hawk sir

Worst Heavy-
So much fail in the eldar heavy support, so lets just say Nightspinner Support Platform and call it a day at that.

Chaos spawns are only bad in 1 of 3 games. If you're not playing kill points, they can be a nightmare for your opponent.

I want to try playing the following list eventually for 2500:

Sorc in termi armor, gift of chaos, MoT.
2 squads of Plague Marine, 2 x melta, Rhino
43 spawns.

Sit the HQ/troops into cover on objectives and let the fun begin. Anything trying to heard them will be caught pretty fast due to their potential 24 inches threat range.

Phazael wrote:Worst HQ-
Space Pope or Autarch would be high in the running

Cause +1 to reserve rolls is never a good thing... (hell I'd pay 100 pts for it as a CSM player without even requesting a model)

Phazael wrote:
Worst Elite-
Biovore or Death Cult Assasins (both arguably the worst units in the game)

I assume you made the same mistake I made earlier and said Biovore instead of Pyrovore...

DCAs are great, idk what you are smoking here...

Phazael wrote:
Worst Troop-
Hard one, but gotta go with Storm Guardians or Ripper Swarms

I will admit I forgot the fail that is storm guardians... that is of course if you can't find the utility for a 92 point 31 attacks on charge 2 melta gun carrying scoring unit...

Phazael wrote:
Worst Fast-
I see your hellions and raise you a Vyper and Swooping Hawk sir

Obvious troll is obvious

Phazael wrote:
Worst Heavy-
So much fail in the eldar heavy support, so lets just say Nightspinner Support Platform and call it a day at that.

Autarchs aren't bad. Not great, but not bad. Give em a jetbike, Lance and Mandiblasters and they become potential brutal.

[quote=Daemon-Archon Ren

Repentia are better then...

Mandrakes

The Decapitator
(The above two cannot be deployed in 1 of 3 game missions in 5th edition, and even in the two that you CAN take them, you'd be hard pressed finding a reason actually TO take them)

Hellions

Grotesques

Firewarriors

Space Pope

Codex: Necron (except the Monolith)

Biovores

Weird Boyz

Flash Gitz

Chaos Spawn

Ahriman (Debateable)

the list goes on.

Just because they are the 'worst' choice in your codex, does not make them the most useless.

Yes Seraphim are better and thus make Repentia a far less attractive choice in a which hunters army, but to list repentia as "The most useless unit in 40K" for that reason would be like saying Tac marines are the most useless unit in 40k when in a BA army because Assault marines are "so much better".

Phazael wrote:Worst HQ-
Space Pope or Autarch would be high in the running

Worst Elite-
Biovore or Death Cult Assasins (both arguably the worst units in the game)

Worst Troop-
Hard one, but gotta go with Storm Guardians or Ripper Swarms

Worst Fast-
I see your hellions and raise you a Vyper and Swooping Hawk sir

Worst Heavy-
So much fail in the eldar heavy support, so lets just say Nightspinner Support Platform and call it a day at that.

I agree with nothing you said. Autarchs are way better than some of the other eldar HQs. Worst troop can't be rippers. They serve some positions.Death Cults are half decent,compared to some of the other crappy assassins.
Vypers are way better that repentia and chaos spawn. The eldar heavy support section is fine, you just don't know how to use them right.

I can tell you have an obvious dislike for the eldar...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how the heck is ahriman useless? He's a specific HQ for a specific type of CSM army. Besides that, he usually works fine, never had any problems with him.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Also, how the heck is ahriman useless? He's a specific HQ for a specific type of CSM army. Besides that, he usually works fine, never had any problems with him.

You can build a Chaos Terminator Sorcerer with better wargear for less points then him...

Also, his 250 point lack of Eternal Warrior (also, keep in mind, IIRC he is the ONLY unit worth 250+ without EW) is problematic

Couple that with his 0 Anti-psyker defense make him not worth 250 point

if he were 205, or 215, or in Termi Armor (or Artificer) with EW he would be worth 250 points but in all honesty, you can get better for less points, thus making him weaker.

Keep in mind the "Debatable" bullet.

Yeah...But he can use three powers per turn....

Underpowered != worthless/useless.



Dominions are very underpowered (or rather, overpriced), but they aren't worthless/useless. Same with Celestians to an extent (they'd be just fine if they had BP+CCW).

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah...But he can use three powers per turn....

3 powers a turn...

so at 6 inches he can cause 3 toughness tests (most needing 5+s to matter, so yeah...)

or he can

Warp time - Flame - Doom bolt on a squad with 3+ or worse saves (probably the best combo with him) and kill a bunch of guys that are in flame template range.... again, without deepstrike-ability kinda weak

Warptime - Bolt - Wind on a vehicle so you MIGHT get a glance/pen then an additional potential glance (in which warptime isn't helping)

Or Warptime - Bolt - Force weapon an IC/Special Character and potentially do some damage there (but most characters are better then him in melee)

I'd rather take a warptime-wind/bolt sorcerer with wings/familier and MoT that can fly 12 inches and still be versatile for less points

or better yet, 3 Oblits (with will be much nastier to Infantry/Tanks, can deepstrike, and has double the potential wounds, and doesn't get negged by Hoods/Runes/Shadows of the warp) and spend the extra 25 points on vehicle/squad upgrades.

Which makes him overpriced, but not useless.

Thanks melissia

Phazael wrote:Worst HQ-
Space Pope or Autarch would be high in the running

Worst Elite-
Biovore or Death Cult Assasins (both arguably the worst units in the game)

Worst Troop-
Hard one, but gotta go with Storm Guardians or Ripper Swarms

Worst Fast-
I see your hellions and raise you a Vyper and Swooping Hawk sir

Worst Heavy-
So much fail in the eldar heavy support, so lets just say Nightspinner Support Platform and call it a day at that.

Wow...



Autarches-Made of win... +1 to reserves, for 80 points you get a freaking melta gun at BS6...

Vypers-Useless? Care to explain, or should I just beat you to death with this fish? 6 S6 shots a turn from a skimmer is the suck...

Nightspinner-Useless? There is so much fail in that statement I won't even comment.

Stormguardians-Everyone knows three flamers is made of useless...

Why don't you read through the codices, instead of listening to internet babble about units.



x100... I am already on the thin line of spamming them...

Melissia wrote:Which makes him overpriced, but not useless.

Repentia have 2d6 armor pen, they are very useful at opening tanks.

Do you retract that they are useless?

No, because they aren't going to get into melee against a tank when you just put a cheap throwaway unit in front them instead. The ability to actually control the unit makes a huge difference-- it's a matter of skill to use Ahriman properly. It's a mater of the OPPONENT'S skill to "use" Repentia effectively.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Phazael wrote:Worst HQ-
Space Pope or Autarch would be high in the running

Worst Elite-
Biovore or Death Cult Assasins (both arguably the worst units in the game)

Worst Troop-
Hard one, but gotta go with Storm Guardians or Ripper Swarms

Worst Fast-
I see your hellions and raise you a Vyper and Swooping Hawk sir

Worst Heavy-
So much fail in the eldar heavy support, so lets just say Nightspinner Support Platform and call it a day at that.

Wow...



Autarches-Made of win... +1 to reserves, for 80 points you get a freaking melta gun at BS6...

Vypers-Useless? Care to explain, or should I just beat you to death with this fish? 6 S6 shots a turn from a skimmer is the suck...

Nightspinner-Useless? There is so much fail in that statement I won't even comment.

Stormguardians-Everyone knows three flamers is made of useless...

Why don't you read through the codices, instead of listening to internet babble about units.



x100... I am already on the thin line of spamming them...

Nice to see that people agree with me !


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:No, because they aren't going to get into melee against a tank when you just put a cheap throwaway unit in front them instead. The ability to actually control the unit makes a huge difference-- it's a matter of skill to use Ahriman properly. It's a mater of the OPPONENT'S skill to "use" Repentia effectively.

That, and seraphims are way better

Melissia wrote:No, because they aren't going to get into melee against a tank when you just put a cheap throwaway unit in front them instead. The ability to actually control the unit makes a huge difference-- it's a matter of skill to use Ahriman properly. It's a mater of the OPPONENT'S skill to "use" Repentia effectively.

there is no "properly" with ahriman, he is strictly a "for fun" character, You said yourself he is overcost.

A skilled player will take the cheaper/better option instead of Ahriman, hell, the Skilled player will take DPs/Lash Sorcerer's anyway so honestly relating skill to use is kinda null. If you are unable to shoot away the "cheap throwaway" unit infront of the tank (with your escort unit) then I think that is a matter of player lack of skill instead of hoping for dumb opponents. Plus, you can control their "run" move in any direction you choose, nothing in the dex says otherwise. Also, holy rage is not a guaranteed.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:If you are unable to shoot away the "cheap throwaway" unit infront of the tank (with your escort unit)

So basically in order to use this expensive, fragile, and hard to control unit, I have to dedicate another two hundred or so points to it, and even then that's only for it to MAYBE destroy a single tank? Even if you deicate your entire strategy around using Repentia, you're not going to get good results-- hell, you can only ever have one unit anyway so you can't even do that in any game over 1000 points. Sure, IF they get into melee with a vehicle squadron, they can do some damage. But why would the opponent let them get there? They're so easy to wipe out because they can't get in a transport, and they're T3 with no acts of faith and carapace. And even if they, by some miracle, manage to get close enough to do any damage, any dedicated close combat unit that doesn't strike at initiative 1 is going to wipe them out anyway. But even TH/SS termies will give just as much damage as they get if not moreso, and a full squad of them costs less than a full squad of repentia. That's assuming the Marine army is silly enough to let the Repentia get within striking distance of a 400 point unit in the first place.

Also, you don't have to be a skilled player to make a good army list. Nor do you have to have a good army list to be a good player.

*Edited to remove retardedness.

Melissia wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:If you are unable to shoot away the "cheap throwaway" unit infront of the tank (with your escort unit)

So basically in order to use this expensive, fragile, and hard to control unit, I have to dedicate another two hundred or so points to it, and even then that's only for it to MAYBE destroy a single tank? Even if you deicate your entire strategy around using Repentia, you're not going to get good results-- hell, you can only ever have one unit anyway so you can't even do that in any game over 1000 points. Sure, IF they get into melee with a vehicle squadron, they can do some damage. But why would the opponent let them get there? They're so easy to wipe out because they can't get in a transport, and they're T3 with no acts of faith and carapace. And even if they, by some miracle, manage to get close enough to do any damage, any dedicated close combat unit that doesn't strike at initiative 1 is going to wipe them out anyway. But even TH/SS termies will give just as much damage as they get if not moreso, and a full squad of them costs less than a full squad of repentia. That's assuming the Marine army is silly enough to let the Repentia get within striking distance of a 400 point unit in the first place.

Also, you don't have to be a skilled player to make a good army list. Nor do you have to have a good army list to be a good player.

If you end up making your way to Games Day or the VA open, I would be happy to go against you with a list involving repentia to show you their worth. Granted, they are nothing AMAZING (but then again, if they were they would not be even discussed in the "worst unit" thread) but they can fill a slot. There is no "maybe" about the damage they will do to tanks, even if you only had 4 of them, thats 8 attacks, most likely hitting on 4s, and needing two 4s to glance AV 14, the only thing comparable is Chainfist troops.

Repentia are not that hard to control, they are not tooo fragile (especially with other things out there) and they are not too terrible when used properly.

Hardly comparable to things like Mandrakes (please tell me an instance where these units can be considered "good"), Spawn, Hellions, Pariahs, Pyrovores and things of the like, and are CONSIDERABLY better then Aun'Va and that which he brings to the table.

Pyrovores have a use. Deepstrike them in a spod and flame the enemy. NEVER TAKE A PYROVORE WITHOUT A SPOD!

Forgot about the spods...

Consrpirts, because 5Ld isn't worth it.

Melissia wrote:Forgot about the spods...

But I'm weeding out the compitionso repentia can win!

xxmatt85 wrote:Consrpirts, because 5Ld isn't worth it.

Why rely on that when you can give them Ld10 and Stubborn? Conscripts aren't GREAT mind you, I agree. But they can have synergy with their army.

Klawz wrote:Pyrovores have a use. Deepstrike them in a spod and flame the enemy. NEVER TAKE A PYROVORE WITHOUT A SPOD!

So... you're saying that making a Pyrovore cost 135 points to get a flame template off... is worth it?

I think he is saying their use is filling that extra 135 points all Nid players end up having. If thats the case then I guess Chaos Spawn can drop off the list as well.

Ok im missing something here, its probably obvious but why is "Space Pope" so bad?

vodo40k wrote:Ok im missing something here, its probably obvious but why is "Space Pope" so bad?

See my post on page #2.

Since I'm on a roll here, and Aun'va is so obvious, I propose another Tau HQ: Shadowsun. Costs 175 points, has perhaps second worst CC ability for a HQ in the game (after Aun'va)...but on balance, she has a nice Stealth field to protect her from long-range attacks! So what is she armed with? Why, meltaguns, of course! She does have a useful Command drone, but as long as her Drones are alive, she cannot join other units. So basically...if she's with your gunline, she's 175 points which does nothing until enemy is very close. If you deep strike her, her Stealth field and Command Drone are useless.

Shrike325 wrote:

Klawz wrote:Pyrovores have a use. Deepstrike them in a spod and flame the enemy. NEVER TAKE A PYROVORE WITHOUT A SPOD!

So... you're saying that making a Pyrovore cost 135 points to get a flame template off... is worth it?

Just saying it isn't the worst unit.

Klawz wrote:Just saying it isn't the worst unit.

I think many (like myself) would agree that it definatly is not the WORST unit, but you should also agree that it is definately a contender

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Klawz wrote:Just saying it isn't the worst unit.

I think many (like myself) would agree that it definatly is not the WORST unit, but you should also agree that it is definately a contender

But i doess have a use. and I believe it would be only 85 points.

deamonhosts..... or WH repenta. by far the worst two units

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:deamonhosts..... or WH repenta. by far the worst two units

Daemonhosts have their moments, and can be pretty good depending on what powers you roll, but the reason no-one takes them is because they deny you the ability to use Grey Knights.

Klawz wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Klawz wrote:Just saying it isn't the worst unit.

I think many (like myself) would agree that it definatly is not the WORST unit, but you should also agree that it is definately a contender

But i doess have a use. and I believe it would be only 85 points.

Yes it is, my mistake, read "see page 90 for points cost" as "costs 90 points"... still utter crap

Hi Valk im new here your freind indiana1000 told me all about you. Anyway the most usless unit imo is space marine scouts with shotguns as shotguns are about as useful as lasguns

The degrees kelvin. Just use Celsius!

Samus_aran115 wrote:The degrees kelvin. Just use Celsius!

that gets major lolz

Samus_aran115 is punny.


Back on topic, I do believe that shadowsun is pretty darn bad. She has 2 melta guns and here gear protects her from long range shots.

What about commander farsight? his special benefits are meh, and if you take him there are many severe limits on what you can take in your army.

micahaphone wrote:

What about commander farsight? his special benefits are meh, and if you take him there are many severe limits on what you can take in your army.

And then you realise you can fit roughtly 20 Crisis suits into a single list and dakka the hell out of someone.

samk99 wrote:Hi Valk im new here your freind indiana1000 told me all about you. Anyway the most usless unit imo is space marine scouts with shotguns as shotguns are about as useful as lasguns

Your friend is wrong and knows jack about the unit. See our discussion earlier in this thread about scouts and how much they WIN.

Melissia wrote:

samk99 wrote:Hi Valk im new here your freind indiana1000 told me all about you. Anyway the most usless unit imo is space marine scouts with shotguns as shotguns are about as useful as lasguns

Your friend is wrong and knows jack about the unit. See our discussion earlier in this thread about scouts and how much they WIN.

Lol,I was there.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

the_ferrett wrote:DAR, both Zogwort and Big gunz certainly are not the worst

Thats more of "There are not that many bad HQs and Heavy Support options in w40k" as much as "Zoggy and Big gunz suck"

No doubt, they are phenominal compared to other things on the Worst list, but IMO Zogwort is one of the worst HQ choices(while still not one of the worst UNITS) to grace a codex.

It goes like this

Space Pope <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Zogwort << Everything else

Big guns are relatively weak compared to other HS options in 40k (I.E Land Raiders, Hammerheads, Daemon Princes, Defilers, etc)

Vespids would have *possibly* made the cut, but honestly, if we were gonna list all the bad FA choices, we would need a separate thread entirely.

at 23pts for a BS3 str 8 shot or a str 4 small blast template with a re-roll to hit once per game what are you moaning about? A single kannon costs 20pts. Said 20pts might happily blow up a tank of av13 or less worth 5 or even 10 times its pts. sure there are better ork heavy choices but if you run a horde army than big gunz are a respectable way to get some anti-tank shooting in there.

As for Zoggy? He's not brilliant (from experience) but that squig power is hilarious and the potential ability to shut down abaddon, calgar, eldrad, etc is very useful. Plus he has up to 9 wounding on a 2+ power weapon attacks in cc. He's not even the worst HQ in the ork codex, that would be Wazzdakka. His only use is for the all bike army because looked at purely for his own rules he sucks massive squig nuts. And neither is as bad as the ethereal.

I have too say mandrakes are pretty usefull three turns of freemovement and fleeting with out being shot at.... then there +2 cover modifiler and a group of 10 for 150 points with 30 attacks on the charge is nuthing too call worst or bad to laught at... yeah there hitting on 3 and wounding on 5 but still there great for keeping your emeny guessing were there going too pop in at.

TROOPS WISE I like rippers ( i have ripper army i play with and its fun too see me bring out 90 ripper swarms bases, and tell my emeny dont attack the hq...( since he make ripper swarms from the wounds...) they get a +2 cover bonus too being small and sleathy which helps out and being fearless little bas' wichs are good too. Thats my Opinion..

Melissia wrote:Underpowered != worthless/useless.



Dominions are very underpowered (or rather, overpriced), but they aren't worthless/useless. Same with Celestians to an extent (they'd be just fine if they had BP+CCW).

Oh we'll be discounting repentia then.

Underpowered, overcosted and not faithful. I agree. They sure do suck.

Useless? Well they'll munch a tank in cc. Hey I found a use. Now you can shut up.

StarGate wrote:I have too say mandrakes are pretty usefull three turns of freemovement and fleeting with out being shot at.... then there +2 cover modifiler and a group of 10 for 150 points with 30 attacks on the charge is nuthing too call worst or bad to laught at... yeah there hitting on 3 and wounding on 5 but still there great for keeping your emeny guessing were there going too pop in at.

Most enemies don't care where they are going to pop out, nothing a single flamer shot cant handle (and if you happen to have 2, and or a dread, onoes mandrakes!).

150 points for 30 attacks on the charge that are hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s, and allowing 3+ armor saves

for 10 more points....

Bloodletters are hitting on 3s wounding on 3s, not allowing armor saves and have 5+ invuls instead of armor. and oh yeah, as for "Hidden Deployment" being a good thing, if your opponent surrounds your markers he can either

A Force you to deploy in a less then desirable area

or

B Surround all three and force the squad to die before hitting the table.

Mandrakes are absolutely terrible.

The only use they COULD serve is objective contesting (which assumes game end on turn 3) but due to the above, that objective isn't even possible.

OK, I might not be all that good when determining the usefulness of a unit, but what the heck is wrong with hellions?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Useless? Well they'll munch a tank in cc. Hey I found a use.

No they won't, because they'll never get there.

Melissia wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Useless? Well they'll munch a tank in cc. Hey I found a use.

No they won't, because they'll never get there.

what if the Land Raider Deeps strikes!!!!!!!

(Or you Creed-Flank them...)

and Luke, Hellions are bad due to their overcost and inability to effectively do ANYTHING on the board.

The most Ironic thing about the Dark Eldar (the "Fastest army in the universe") is how terrible their fast attack choices are (with Reavers being a slight exception)

Heres how you can tell if one unit is useless

Can another unit do everything that unit can do for ~Equal or even less then their point cost and do a Much better job at it?

When discussing Hellions, the answer is HELL YES

When discussing Repentia, the answer is, Yes there are better infantry killers, Yes there are better IC hunters, yes there are better Tank killers, but NO there is nothing better that can do all three.

Sigh. I just realized that bikes are bad unless that's your army. Hence the reason attack bikes are terrible. They barely fit in a bike army.

Would you deep strike or outflank a tank within striking distance of an anti-tank unit without knowing you could destroy it quickly?

Ten celestians with twin meltaguns and an eviscerator in a rhino are better in CC, better at anti-tank, and better at anti-infantry than ten repentia. They also cost the same using the IA rhino rules. And they're more survivable and flexible.

My stab at this

HQ: Aun Va so much that no other contender is worth looking at.

Elites:

the contenders

Pyrovore - sucks in cc, hurts you if he gets shot and goes boom, has a heavy flamer (because nids need anti-troop guns of course) and takes up an elite slot that competes with stuff like the deathleaper, hive guard, ymgarls, the doom, zoes, venomthropes, etc all of which are amazing. I'm going to just chalk him up to better stuff in the same codex and no useful role though.

Repentia - easy to kill, not really good at cc which is they're job and hard to control. Expensive. Against an average unit they'll probably win cc though and they maul vehicles. not as good as seraphs so again I'm rating them as better stuff in the same codex and no useful role.

Death Cult Assassins - easy KP's but cheap reasonable scouting/infiltrating cc power. Basically if they fix the kp issue they'd be fine.

Daemonhost - random, hard to control, can be good or awful on a turn by turn basis and trump card, NO GK's! Making him the only choice that actively hurts your army in a direct way. Although I don't know if it counts because its kind of a theme thing. Its not so much that he denies GK's as that taking him signifies you playing a radical force.

Techmarines - what are these for? Anyone, anyone? Bueller?

Mandrakes - hiding for 3 turns and then can't kill anything when they do show up. I guess they can contest?

The decapitator - can't be deployed in some missions, weaponry which is worse than his non-special equivalent and no useful psychic powers.

Winner: The decapitator.

Troops
The contenders

Nurglings - non scoring troops but at least they're fearless with an invulnerable save

Rippers - non scoring troops which are sometimes fearless and sometimes eat each other and have no invulnerable save. and are crap at cc....in an army with amazing and cheap troops to boot.

Winner: Rippers.

and however said Grots deserves a smack. Grots are amazing. They've won me more games than any other unit.

Fast Attack:
Contenders - my god there are a lot of them

Chaos Spawn - uncontrollable, average in cc but at least they're quite cheap, have invulnerables and you can take a lot of them. Its not like there is anything else that jumps out at you from the Chaos FA section.

Swooping Hawks - of the various possible roles these could fill something else in the eldar codex does it better. Anti-troop? Practically everything else. Anti-tank assault? Scorps, fire dragons, wraithguard and spiders all do it better. Contesting on the last turn? Practically the whole army does that.

Skyslasher swarms - hey its flying rippers. At least they're not sucking up troop slots but they still can't kill anything, might eat themselves and aren't always fearless.

Hellions - decent(ish) in cc but expensive as hell. Their rapid fire gun is laughable but is obviously a rules hangover. These guys suck but they haven't always...unlike skyslashers.

Teleporting GK's - we are GK's that can teleport...but then lose the ability to score. Nobody has ever taken us ever.

Vanguard - how much?

Winner: Skyslashers.

Heavy Support
Contenders

Sniper Drones - not necesarily bad at first glance but hugely overcosted and competing with hammerheads and broadsides.

Biovore - because nids need more anti-troop weapons.

Orbital Bombardment - it can't be stopped which is a plus but you need your enemy to go to the correct piece of terrain and be the correct type of enemy. Plus it is wildly inaccurate and frankly none of the options are all that killy anyway.

Zzzap guns - not big gunz as a whole just the zzzap option. 2d6 strength means that 2/3 of the time it is less strong than the CHEAPER kannon. you pay more pts to make your gun worse!

Scourges - jump packs and heavy weapons? Neither of these are bad but they mesh weirdly.

Leman Russ Punisher - more pts to be worse than the exterminator. I guess it does get better armour.

Winner: Zzzap guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Sigh. I just realized that bikes are bad unless that's your army. Hence the reason attack bikes are terrible. They barely fit in a bike army.

Attack bikes aren't bad. They do the same job as speeders, fast tank hunting with a cheap disposable unit or mobile anti-infantry firepower. Speeders edge them out now they can all take 2 weapons but if you want just a cheap single weapon speeder the attack bike is comparable.

But yeah bikes are almost universally bad. middling cc power, middling anti-infantry shooting, speed with no edge and tough but pricy with no great save. The only exceptions are

- if they're troops. The addition of scoring suddenly means a fast, tough, multi-purpose unit is a good thing not a waste of pts
- if you're an ork. Because getting any save is great let alone a 4+ and a 4++ and a toughness boost, and the speed, and a short ranged twin-linked big shoota. rk bikers are boss
- reavers, because they can spam spec weps and go tank hunting

Samus_aran115 wrote:The degrees kelvin. Just use Celsius!

This is wrong, it should be Farenheit

I seriously dont get the point of Goff Rockers, seriously.

Rippers - non scoring troops which are sometimes fearless and sometimes eat each other and have no invulnerable save. and are crap at cc....in an army with amazing and cheap troops to boot.

Winner: Rippers.

So statistically 9 rippers with spinefists can land 20 hits and if its GEQ, then that's ten dead per turn. If you play them right you are going to get cover. If you get to charge the same said GEQ unit, then you have 22.5 hits on avg. which brings down to 11.25 wounds, call it 11 at AP5. Then maybe a 5 or 6+ save, they might save 3 and drop another 8. So that's probably 20 models gone. The great thing is that this unit would be 150 points and will more than often be overlooked (amazed that they made it to this list). I've had rippers drop SoB, orks, eldar, and especially guard. I think they offer a unique way to surprise your opponent and give him an unexpected as kicking. Even with just the results from above, they could make their points back in one, maybe 2 turns.

Another thought, if people are wasting shots on rippers, then they aren't shooting other stuff which is just as good (better in most cases I agree). I'm not saying rippers are the best troop choice, but to say they are even on the list of the worst is way too harsh. If played well and not set out in the open and expected to play like a SM tac squad then they can be great. A few of the units that I've seen on this list are that way, I think GW should release a guard and ork box set with their next rules set so people realize how bad ass MEQ's really are. They are very forgiving tactically and I think it shows in this thread, at least in a few cases. Though I do agree the pope sucks.

@bravelybravesirrobin

...

That list is just plain wrong.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@bravelybravesirrobin

...

That list is just plain wrong.

HQ: Aun'Va

Elites: Decapitators

Troops: Rippers

FA: Sky Slashers

Heavy: Zzzaps.


What specifically do you object to?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:My stab at this

Techmarines - what are these for? Anyone, anyone? Bueller?

I'm actually glad you included these guys.

I can actually see a few uses for the C:SM version, but the Blood Angel and Space Wolf Versions have their own problems, which could be solved by simply giving them the IC special rule, and allowing all Techmarines to repair while embarked.

Melissia might get a break, the new witch hunters (and daemon hunters) codex is up on the GW site.

vodo40k wrote:Melissia might get a break, the new witch hunters (and daemon hunters) codex is up on the GW site.

Nothing new about it, it's just free now with no changes made to it.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@bravelybravesirrobin

...

That list is just plain wrong.

HQ: Aun'Va

Elites: Decapitators

Troops: Rippers

FA: Sky Slashers

Heavy: Zzzaps.


What specifically do you object to?

Well, Rippers, Sky-slashers, and Zzap guns aren't as bad as you think they are.

Honersstodnt wrote:sure, they may be able to cream things, but they are SO cost inefficient, that they actively reduce the size of the rest of your army by a huge margin.

While the space pope may be useless, you can try to just hide the bugger in the back, and surround him with firewarriors. Useless, maybe. I'd still put my money on a tau army at 1000 points packing nothing but a space pope and ANY basic troop choices from the tau codex, over a 10 man squad of vanguard with hammers like this.

That is an unfair argument on so many levels, its like saying the space pope takes all the TAU VEHICLE upgrades and times's them by 10 to find points cost. A 10 man squad of vanguard with just jump packs are an expensive but a solid unit. giving them all the upgrades possible, like most units, makes them uselessly overpriced. BUT! Give them storm shields and thunder hammers and you have flying assault terminators, lacking the 2+.

Id say if there was a useless unit, itd be conscripts. sure you can legally field 250 of them for 1000 points, but they are still crap, and can be sweeping advanced SO easily.