being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!
O yes my friend the hypocrasy of it is insane. The mutant and psyker thing aside, they are closer to renegades than any other chapter and GW includes nothing of the inquisition bugging them! While my legion (black Templar) are in constant conflit with the =I= and we are possible the most devout, zealous, and loyal, chapter there is!
I want to punch GW's CO in his childrens faces for thinking that space werewolves and vampires were a good idea riding the twilight franchise, and then giving them OP codexes to boot just to sell out the the lil sparklepire fanboys. If you just started space wolves or bloodangels with the new codex releases you should really look urselves in the mirror and start asking some questions. lol
I dunno I still like my puppies. What where they like in the old book? I once saw what wolfen models where.
Also they still have the war's of Armageddon in the fluff. The Space wolves openly despise the inquisition. It just says they one day plan revenge. But nothing about what either side is doing about it now.
Well what happened was a Khorne army full of Traitor Guard/Khorne Berserkers/Daemons attacked. And the Space Wolves came to help them out.
But even they were having a hard time so they sent the Grey Knights. Eventually they won. But all of the Armageddon Steel Legion Soldiers who knew about the Daemons where sterilized and sent to work camps.
The Space Wolves thought this was dildos so they want revenge. I also once heard from someone who had the old dex that Space Wolves fired at Inquisition ships that came by.
But even they were having a hard time so they sent the Grey Knights. Eventually they won. But all of the Armageddon Steel Legion Soldiers who knew about the Daemons where sterilized and sent to work camps.
According the Codex at least, this was the work of the Administratum not the Inquisition. It's them, not the Inquisition the wolves dislike for the incident.
EDIT: The inquisition wanted the "taint" dealt with, but they didn't come up with the plan.
Still, since that day Grminar has held an abiding hatred for the Adepts of the Administratum, and his vows of vengeance for the heroes of Armageddon will one day be fulfullied.
It makes little difference. The point I was making is that the inquisition doesnt mind the wolves being mutants or the fact they wipe there butts with normal SM doctrine. Plus have you seen the pictures in the codex?! how can they be any siblance of human anymore? All im saying is that I think GW sold out the SW to the Vamp/werewolf crazy. They went from space vikings who venerated wolves to werewolves wearing wolf pelts who ride giant wolves while killing people with there wolfy wolf claws. lol WOLF!
Laughing God wrote:It makes little difference. The point I was making is that the inquisition doesnt mind the wolves being mutants or the fact they wipe there butts with normal SM doctrine. Plus have you seen the pictures in the codex?! how can they be any siblance of human anymore? All im saying is that I think GW sould out the SW to the Vamp/werewolf crazy. They went from space vikings who venerated wolves to werewolves wearing wolf pelts who ride giant wolves while killing people with there wolfy wolf claws. lol WOLF!
The Ecclesiarcy at the very least, already tried purge the wolves after they refused inspection. It didn't work. It's not so much that they don't mind, it's just that "dealing" with the wolves would be more trouble than it's worth. The imperium is better off with the Space Wolves as allies than enemies and they know it.
well in that case the Imperium should just go ahead and ally with the Tau and Eldar, if they're willing to except mutants and witch-kin as friends then why not xenos as well?
Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!
At the time of the HH it was illegal to have Psyker Space Marines. Sometime after the Emperor's near death santioning of Psykers for military application came about which includes SM librians.
Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!
At the time of the HH it was illegal to have Psyker Space Marines. Sometime after the Emperor's near death santioning of Psykers for military application came about which includes SM librians.
I know that the decision made at the council of nikaea was repealled after the HH, however the space wolves have always displayed a superstition and hatred of psykers, and yes they had librarians, just like other chapters, however they were'nt OP gods of magic, they were social pariahs shunned by the rest of the chapter
Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!
At the time of the HH it was illegal to have Psyker Space Marines. Sometime after the Emperor's near death santioning of Psykers for military application came about which includes SM librians.
I know that the decision made at the council of nikaea was repealled after the HH, however the space wolves have always displayed a superstition and hatred of psykers, and yes they had librarians, just like other chapters, however they were'nt OP gods of magic, they were social pariahs shunned by the rest of the chapter
Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!
At the time of the HH it was illegal to have Psyker Space Marines. Sometime after the Emperor's near death santioning of Psykers for military application came about which includes SM librians.
I know that the decision made at the council of nikaea was repealled after the HH, however the space wolves have always displayed a superstition and hatred of psykers, and yes they had librarians, just like other chapters, however they were'nt OP gods of magic, they were social pariahs shunned by the rest of the chapter
And they still are. They just both now.
and thus my original point, yet another reason to hate the drug dealers known as GW
I must say it is astonishingly lucky for GW that all the various mutant SM chapters ended up with quirks and foibles that matched their names.
It could so easily have been different...
Blood Angels == Vegetarian, wear Japanese schoolgirl uniforms.
Space Wolves == Pacifist, teetotal
Iron Hands == No hands, allergic to bionic implants.
And so on.
I must say it is astonishingly lucky for GW that all the various mutant SM chapters ended up with quirks and foibles that matched their names.
It could so easily have been different...
Blood Angels == Vegetarian, wear Japanese schoolgirl uniforms.
Space Wolves == Pacifist, teetotal
Iron Hands == No hands, allergic to bionic implants.
And so on.
The Primarchs were originally going to be 20 Copypasta superdooperdoods, but then the Three nastybad Chaos Gods used their mindlazors to try and kapewpew the primarchs which didn't work because The Empra was the bestest power in the whole world however so was able to stop them but he had forgotten to have his Shreddies that morning so couldn't stop them from being stoled so instead he psychically protected them and guided them to land on planets where they would grow up to be all awesome and special but because he didn't have any milk that day because he forgot his Cornflakes some of the Primarchs were touched by the warp and so became evil but not really.
The Space Wolves have always been a joke - you're just the first SW player to get it.
From what I know of the game's history, the Space Wolves' massive levels of heresy and wolf shagging are pretty new though.
There is no in-universe reason why they haven't been exterminated by the Ordo Heresius and/or any other Marine chapter in the Imperium. The reason lies soley in the fact that they have their own codex and model line.
If I were in charge (and GW could do worse) I'd make them a traitor chapter - in fact, if it weren't for all the psykers they have, I'd be pretty sure they worship Khorne now.
Why would they worship khorne? they have all the fighting, beer and fun they want!
And yes i don't really like the way the wolves have gone ether the werewolves of Russ have lost their way..... I still maintain the vikings they were meant to be.
Laughing God wrote:O yes my friend the hypocrasy of it is insane. The mutant and psyker thing aside, they are closer to renegades than any other chapter and GW includes nothing of the inquisition bugging them! While my legion (black Templar) are in constant conflit with the =I= and we are possible the most devout, zealous, and loyal, chapter there is!
I want to punch GW's CO in his childrens faces for thinking that space werewolves and vampires were a good idea riding the twilight franchise, and then giving them OP codexes to boot just to sell out the the lil sparklepire fanboys. If you just started space wolves or bloodangels with the new codex releases you should really look urselves in the mirror and start asking some questions. lol
I looked in the mirror and didn't like what I saw.
So what's new.
I chose SW's around the time of the release of the codex but hands on both hearts I honestly didn't pick them cos of cheesey flavour of the month.
It was mostly the being closer to renegade stuff and the fact that orthodox marine players want to do the Lupus exterminatus thing
Hey KK you are so psychic!
I'm a teetotal pacifist playing SW's!
That is spooky!
How rubbish are those Biker's bikes if they couldn't catch a guy on a bulldozer!
or was it a very fast bulldozer?
Well to be honest, its not like werewolves completely dominate the fluff. The 13th company is missing, I think in the Eye of Terror, and if I remember correctly, MotW is actually just some kind of feral tendancy that is a result of a SW not becoming a full Wulfen.
Read the Space Wolf novels, they explain it pretty well.
By the way, whats up with the thread name? You losing sleep over this?
If I recall correctly the Space Wolves have always had the Wulfen and Rune Priests, and the Rune Priests did use psychic powers, not many I know but they had them. I also think the Mark of the Wulfen existed in the 3rd edition rule book as something you could take from the wargear section so really I'm not seeing your over all issue.
Azezel wrote:There is no in-universe reason why they haven't been exterminated by the Ordo Heresius
Well, aside from the Ordo Heresius not existing and all.
And THAT'S just exactly what they want you to think! Fight the system, brah!
BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly the Space Wolves have always had the Wulfen and Rune Priests, and the Rune Priests did use psychic powers, not many I know but they had them. I also think the Mark of the Wulfen existed in the 3rd edition rule book as something you could take from the wargear section so really I'm not seeing your over all issue.
Becuase beforehand the wolfshagging and mindfeths were only alluded before, where now it's staring you in the face. Ew.
well said Emperors Faithful, basically I miss the days when space wolves (and blood angels, but we won't get into that here) weren't all in your face about it.
Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!
1. You fail at fluff. The Space Wolves didn't attack the Thousand Sons for "being mutants and psykers". They attacked the Thousand Sons because the Emperor said to. Good ole Magnus was getting into the Dark stuff, and was basically a Chaos flunky before he fled. Trouble was, he didn't even know it, even if he was right about Horus. Basically, I blame this one on the Emperor playing favorites with Horus.
2. They're not "forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters". Logan Grimnar has been leading the Space Wolves for, what, 500 years? The only thing that really separates him from any other chapter master at this point is longer fangs (good ole Canis Helix) and the manliness to grow a beard.
3. Traitors to the Imperium? The Space Wolves are one of, if not the most beloved chapter of Space Marines. The people love them because they do one thing that other Space Marines fail at: they actually care about the people they're protecting, not just the act of protecting them. Grimnar's hatred for the Administratum stems from the Administratum basically turning its heroes (I.e., the IG brave enough to fight off one of the largest demonic incursions the Imperium has ever faced) into slaves, all to cover its own ass. Any other chapter would just shrug, mumble something about "sucks bro, but orders..." and leave.
4. Wulfen being outcasts? Bran Redmaw is one of the Wolf Lords. For several codex editions now, his entire Company has been associated with the Mark of the Wulfen. They're hardly "frowned upon outcasts", as you put it.
5. Mistrust of magic? What exactly do Space Wolves do that is magic? (Hint: Psychic powers aren't magic.)
I've been playing Space Wolves since before Bjorn was a special character the first time. While the editions have brought some interesting changes and new units, overall the feel isn't all that off. This last codex definitely put extra stress on the "Wolves" portion of Space Wolves, but we still have our young berserkers, we still have our grizzled warriors, we still have our warrior thanes and we still have the overall feel of being a Space Viking.
Well the Space Wolves haven't been exterminated/declared traitor because they still fight for the Imperium and do a damn good (albeit unconventional) job of it! It's better to have them as an ally rather than an enemy, and frankly, the Imperium has enough enemies as it is.
I have to admit, I still like the Space Wolves, I work by the core of their fluff rather than the spangly details and frills Games Workshop adds on to help them sell better. Just because the MotW is readily available doesn't mean it's actually like that within the actual (fictional) chapter itself. I mean, fluff to rules doesn't exactly work in it's entirety; Space Marines can ordinarily take multiple wounds and spit acid, but they can't in game.
I also dislike the over-powered and OTT nature of the Rune Priests rules, however, I'll stick to the weaker and more believable (ie. Thunderclap) powers to make it more realistic (although, once again, fictional). The codex doesn't say anywhere that Psykers are all over the chapter like a cheap coat, it just gives you the ability to take multiple (highly powerful) Rune Priests, nor does it state that they are the uber-powerful psykers in 40K, it's just how the rules are transferred.
I'm not defending the new Codex in it's entirety, however I feel the rules are a largely good representation of the chapter (although often over-powered). However I'd recommend looking past the stupid frills added into them codex (ie. Lukas the prickster) and remaining with the core of the background. It's easy to see what is the Space Wolves itself and what is added to help it sell.
1. You fail at fluff. The Space Wolves didn't attack the Thousand Sons for "being mutants and psykers". They attacked the Thousand Sons because the Emperor said to. Good ole Magnus was getting into the Dark stuff, and was basically a Chaos flunky before he fled. Trouble was, he didn't even know it, even if he was right about Horus. Basically, I blame this one on the Emperor playing favorites with Horus.
No fan boy, you fail at fluff. Read Thousand sons, the wolves condemned and were chomping at the bit to slay the thousand sons way before the emperor took note of their heresies. But the best part is they labeled the Thousand sons traitors for witchcraft (like runepriests don’t use the warp for their powers too?!) and mutation (WTF is a WULFEN?! a mutant werewolf far more deadly than the spawn the thousand sons turned into)
2. They're not "forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters". Logan Grimnar has been leading the Space Wolves for, what, 500 years? The only thing that really separates him from any other chapter master at this point is longer fangs (good ole Canis Helix) and the manliness to grow a beard.
Logan Grimnar is an example of how cool the spacewolves USED to be. Perfect mix of manly Viking and wolf worship.
3. Traitors to the Imperium? The Space Wolves are one of, if not the most beloved chapter of Space Marines. The people love them because they do one thing that other Space Marines fail at: they actually care about the people they're protecting, not just the act of protecting them. Grimnar's hatred for the Administratum stems from the Administratum basically turning its heroes (I.e., the IG brave enough to fight off one of the largest demonic incursions the Imperium has ever faced) into slaves, all to cover its own ass. Any other chapter would just shrug, mumble something about "sucks bro, but orders..." and leave.
The space wolves are notorious for leaving nothing but ruins and dead bodies in the wake of any they call foe. Man, woman, child it didnt matter the dogs feriocity killed them all. There are perfect examples of this in tales of heresy and thousand sons. Not to mention there blatant disregard for the codex astares and the imperial creed. If ANYONE else but the SW did this it would be sure extermiatus and SM chapters would be petitioned to hunt them down. But like many have said they make better allies in there drunken blood thirst than foes.
4. Wulfen being outcasts? Bran Redmaw is one of the Wolf Lords. For several codex editions now, his entire Company has been associated with the Mark of the Wulfen. They're hardly "frowned upon outcasts", as you put it.
Wulfen are bloodthirsty mutants, read legends of the space marines. Even the SW's dont like to bring them up. They are nothing but GW's play on selling more space pups riding the werewolf craze.
5. Mistrust of magic? What exactly do Space Wolves do that is magic? (Hint: Psychic powers aren't magic.)
This is some convoluted fan boy logic if i ever heard it. Magic and psychic powers are powered by the warps ability to change reality in the 40k universe. Efso facto: Rune priests, Librarians, Sorcerers, all draw there power from the same damn place.
I've been playing Space Wolves since before Bjorn was a special character the first time. While the editions have brought some interesting changes and new units, overall the feel isn't all that off. This last codex definitely put extra stress on the "Wolves" portion of Space Wolves, but we still have our young berserkers, we still have our grizzled warriors, we still have our warrior thanes and we still have the overall feel of being a Space Viking.
I don’t have a problem with the space wolves BEFORE this codex. Time and time again we have shown that the SW's have just been sold out by GW to ride the Wolfy wolf train to become space werewolves rather than honorable drunken space Vikings they once were. And that’s just the fluff, the rules themselves are completely ridiculous. Handing out MotW, insane psychic powers, and 16point CSM with counter attack like welfare checks to liberals.
Brother Heinrich wrote:How can you sleep at night space wolves!?!
Soundly on huge piles of tournament trophies with many beautiful sisters repentia!
(Compared to what happened to Chaos the Space Wolves and Blood Angels are right in line with the fluff. No demons in the Chaos space marine armies? Possessed marines unplayable? Lost and the damned completely canceled? Demon's an army by themselves? Mixing Chaos cult troops in the same army? No rivalry among chaos factions? No demon cavalry? No cult demons in renegade marine armies? No armies (rules) for (non space marine) chaos rebels in the entire 40k game right now?)
Laughing God wrote:The space wolves are notorious for leaving nothing but ruins and dead bodies in the wake of any they call foe.
Care to back up that statement?
Also, Black Library isn't Canon.
This argument isnt worth my time to look up 40k referances in books but if you read Legends of the space marines, Tales of heresy, and thousand sons, you'll see what I mean.
And your right its not cannon but the codex is and the SW codex proves my point of SW selling out more than any black library book.
And with that I'm all ranted out. Whooo thanks everyone and you GW!
Laughing God wrote:This argument isnt worth my time to look up 40k referances in books but if you read Legends of the space marines, Tales of heresy, and thousand sons, you'll see what I mean.
Wow, nice one.
You slander the SW name, then when asked to back up your claims, you refuse.
Welcome to my Ignore list. You should feel honoured.
Im just saying me taking time out of my day to pan though 40k books and picking out perticular quotes is a huge waste of my time and I pity you if you have the will and time for it.
And trust me I wont lose any sleep over being on ur ignore list or a tabletop wargame. lol
I'm sorry if I offended anyone but denouncing the army they play I'm just trying to make a point that I think GW went too far this time by selling out a great army, and begging a new era of codex creep...
Laughing God wrote:I'm sorry if I offended anyone but denouncing the army they play I'm just trying to make a point that I think GW went too far this time by selling out a great army, and begging a new era of codex creep...
I'm not saying they haven't done it to the Space Wolves, but have you seen the Blood Angels codex?! Welcome to the modern generation, it's Gak, but it's here and affecting more than the Wolves.
Laughing God wrote:I'm sorry if I offended anyone but denouncing the army they play I'm just trying to make a point that I think GW went too far this time by selling out a great army, and begging a new era of codex creep...
I'm not saying they haven't done it to the Space Wolves, but have you seen the Blood Angels codex?! Welcome to the modern generation, it's Gak, but it's here and affecting more than the Wolves.
Yeah thats a whole other issue, which we'd be best to just stay away from(jaws of the world bat anyone?). it might not be such a bad thing if GW just waited and released their codexes in phases, so everyone stayed on par with eachother, thus maintaining a balance to the game, instead of creating what essentially amounts to, "its now the era of the insert army name here!"
Laughing God wrote:I'm sorry if I offended anyone but denouncing the army they play I'm just trying to make a point that I think GW went too far this time by selling out a great army, and begging a new era of codex creep...
I'm not saying they haven't done it to the Space Wolves, but have you seen the Blood Angels codex?! Welcome to the modern generation, it's Gak, but it's here and affecting more than the Wolves.
Yeah thats a whole other issue, which we'd be best to just stay away from(jaws of the world bat anyone?). it might not be such a bad thing if GW just waited and released their codexes in phases, so everyone stayed on par with eachother, thus maintaining a balance to the game, instead of creating what essentially amounts to, "its now the era of the insert army name here!"
I wouldn't say that's entirely a whole other issue, rather than simply directing all the hate at the Space Wolves. Admittedly, I wouldn't say Codex Creep itself is a problem, more the current design philosophy. Releasing them in groups/phases would work, but it would also mean a longer wait.
well I'd much rather wait longer than deal with the periods of frustration between releases as you have to find the cheesiest ways to use your out-dated codex just to be competitive against the newest flashy OP army, its a sad state of affairs.
Personally, I like the new Codex. I see nothing in the fluff that destroys the Space Wolves as a concept. For those that remember the old 2nd edition one, Njal is back, along with Björn. In keeping with 3rd edition they still won’t use Teleport devices.
Yes, they made the Rune Priest more powerful than the old 3rd edition Rune Priest. Yes, you can field 4 of them.
Yes, they made Mark of the Wolfen more common, it used to limited to ONE per army.
First of all Space Wolves are a CHARACTER Driven Army. I am not talking about Logan and Ragnar, but the Army itself has a Character all itself. They have always been Drunken Space Vikings. 3rd Edition gave us MotW, then the 13th Company came out and gave the Drunken Werewolf Space Vikings.
So now that they took everything and mashed it together. Now you see list with 4 Rune Priest all with JotWW, Those people are not playing Space Wolves, they are playing a WAAC Marine Army and giving those of us that play Fluffy Armies a bad name.
I have over 11,000 points of Space Wolves and of that I have 5 Rune Priest and two are Njal [One in Terminator Armor and the other in Power Armor]. The one thing I have a lot of are MotW, but that is because I miss Grey Hunter have the ability to take a Special Close Combat Weapon, and by taking the MotW I did not have to change that many models.
Most of my list are One Character, usually a Wolf Lord, or Logan and One Wolf Priest per Blood Claw Pack. When I do field a Rune Priest, it is usually Njal with Logan and Björn.
Laughing God wrote:
No fan boy, you fail at fluff. Read Thousand sons, the wolves condemned and were chomping at the bit to slay the thousand sons way before the emperor took note of their heresies. But the best part is they labeled the Thousand sons traitors for witchcraft (like runepriests don’t use the warp for their powers too?!) and mutation (WTF is a WULFEN?! a mutant werewolf far more deadly than the spawn the thousand sons turned into)
Black Library has been known to get names wrong, and you want to use it as canon? Seriously? Black Library isn't fluff. Fluff is presented in official sources: Codecies, Rule Books, White Dwarf. That's pretty much it.
And find me a single recount of a Wulfen going nuts. Go ahead, I'll wait. Because if you read the Eye of Terror codex, you'll find plenty of examples where they show up, destroy the enemies of the Imperium, and then vanish again to continue the fight. Can't say you'll find anything of the sort for the Thousand Sons...
Logan Grimnar is an example of how cool the spacewolves USED to be. Perfect mix of manly Viking and wolf worship.
He's still leading the Space Wolves, last I checked. Long Fangs are still our grizzled old veterans "too long in the tooth" for berserker rages and suicide charges. Blood Claws are still the same hot-headed new recruits with no hint of this werewolf issue that you seem to take such umbrage with, but can't present any real proof of other than the Mark. Are they more "wolfy" than previously? Sure, we get Fenrisian Wolves in our armies now for all the old 13th company players, we get Thunderwolf cavalry, but it's not as though people weren't already converting them and it's not like they didn't exist in the fluff before this codex.
The space wolves are notorious for leaving nothing but ruins and dead bodies in the wake of any they call foe. Man, woman, child it didnt matter the dogs feriocity killed them all. There are perfect examples of this in tales of heresy and thousand sons. Not to mention there blatant disregard for the codex astares and the imperial creed. If ANYONE else but the SW did this it would be sure extermiatus and SM chapters would be petitioned to hunt them down. But like many have said they make better allies in there drunken blood thirst than foes.
You actually believe that, don't you? That's pretty sad. Who insisted on stopping to liberate human worlds during the Horus Heresy, even if it delayed reaching the Emperor? It wasn't Lion'el Johnson, it was Leman Russ. Do they destroy the enemies of the Imperium without remorse? Absolutely! But so do all Space Marines, that's not unique to the Space Wolves. To we disregard the Codex Astartes? Absolutely. It's not like it was handed down from the Emperor, the Guillmon did it. He was a primarch, just like Leman Russ, his word isn't the Emperor's dogma or anything. If anyone is playing up the "drunken bloodthirst" around here, it's not GW, it's you.
"For Ten Thousand years since the end of the Horus Heresy the Space Wolves have continued to serve the Emperor faithfully and with honour. The Chapter has endured ages of constant battle. It has survived times of anarchy within the Imperium and periods of occasional isolation from Earth. The Imperium itself has weathered crises from within and without. At times it has been deeply riven by rebellion or divided by invasion. on other occasions tumultuous warp storms have stranded parts of the galaxy for hundreds of years.
Through all these years of mixed fortune, the Space Wolves have held true to the vow of Leman russ to serve the Emperor, though they have not always served in the way that the High Lords of Terra might have liked them to..."
-From the Apocrypha of Jaejonsson, Vol II (C:SW, pg 41)
IIRC, Jervis Johnson has even been quoted as saying Space Wolves are the "Good Guys" because they actually care about civilians.
Wulfen are bloodthirsty mutants, read legends of the space marines. Even the SW's dont like to bring them up. They are nothing but GW's play on selling more space pups riding the werewolf craze.
You might be thinking of the 13th company, but not all of the 13th company are subject to the Mark. Space Wolves don't talk about the 13th company because it represents their biggest failure. Those who have fallen, been lost, or turned traitor.
I don’t have a problem with the space wolves BEFORE this codex. Time and time again we have shown that the SW's have just been sold out by GW to ride the Wolfy wolf train to become space werewolves rather than honorable drunken space Vikings they once were. And that’s just the fluff, the rules themselves are completely ridiculous. Handing out MotW, insane psychic powers, and 16point CSM with counter attack like welfare checks to liberals.
Wait, is your problem with the rules, or the fluff? Because basically it looks like you're crying sour grapes and then trashing the whole codex because of it.
"We may be few, and our enemies many. Yet so long as there remains on of us still fighting, one who still rages in the name of justice and truth, then by the Allfather, the galaxy shall yet know hope."
-Ragnar Blackmane of the Space Wolves
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Brother Heinrich wrote:Yeah thats a whole other issue, which we'd be best to just stay away from(jaws of the world bat anyone?).
I guess it's because one of my regular enemies is an Eldar player, but JotWW doesn't see nearly as much use as Murderous Hurricane and Storm Caller do.
I'm not saying JotWW isn't powerful, one of my other armies is Tyranids and as a Tyranid player JotWW makes me cry. I just don't see it as the end-all be-all of Space Wolf psychic powers that so many seem to. Different strokes/folks I guess.
I'm not going to loose sleep over the OP loosing sleep. It seems that the Wolves have fallen out of your favor. Too bad. I'll take your models if you don't want them anymore.
I personally don't see the werewolf aspect that you say is so present. I don't see a single reference of a marine suddenly growing fangs and running on all fours to speed to the enemy then suddenly becoming a man again to fire off their bolters, only to turn back into a wolf and run off after a thrown stick.
They still are old space viking that love drinking and bruising. In a few (granted more now than say in past editions) the Canis Helix has taken a stronger hold and wont let go, thus altering their abilities. But its not rampent, and its not even werewolfdom, its just leads to a more savage nature.
I'm just glad they finally got a good codex that works, the old Space wolves codex was official yet out of print for so long it was just awful at tourneys and events.
For a long time you couldn't even buy one!
I got into space wolves after the new book came out, I was curious before but I couldn't even get a codex.
Jayden63 wrote:I'm not going to loose sleep over the OP loosing sleep. It seems that the Wolves have fallen out of your favor. Too bad. I'll take your models if you don't want them anymore.
I personally don't see the werewolf aspect that you say is so present. I don't see a single reference of a marine suddenly growing fangs and running on all fours to speed to the enemy then suddenly becoming a man again to fire off their bolters, only to turn back into a wolf and run off after a thrown stick.
They still are old space viking that love drinking and bruising. In a few (granted more now than say in past editions) the Canis Helix has taken a stronger hold and wont let go, thus altering their abilities. But its not rampent, and its not even werewolfdom, its just leads to a more savage nature.
so in essence you're saying that wulfen are in fact not ramapaging bio-engineered monsters. If you're trying to take this as a literal "werewolf" interpretation, then they should turn into wulfen on the full moon only. Every account I've seen, codex or otherwise, has painted them (wulfen) as raging uncontrollable monsters. yes they don't change back and forth at will, its only when they lose control of their rage, however thats not the point we're arguing here. And if as you say the canus helix "has taken a stronger hold and won't let go" then I'd say thats a pretty glaring example of genetic deviancy if I've ever seen one. I simply fail to see how they are allowed to continue on this path, helpful though their aid may be when others are condemed to death for far less, I mean the relictors used the weapons of chaos against the enemies of the Imperium, yet they were still declared excommunicate and hunted down, and look at the mantis warriors, they were condemned to a 100 year penitent crusade for simply being tricked into playing for the wrong team. I fail to see that in a galaxy of trillions of souls and thousands of space marine chapters, that the loss of the space wolves would be such a devastating blow to the imperium, if anything another chapter would likely claim its resources and armory and take position protecting fenris and surrounding space, if not well, planets and systems have burned for far less
Brother Heinrich wrote:
so in essence you're saying that wulfen are in fact not ramapaging bio-engineered monsters. If you're trying to take this as a literal "werewolf" interpretation, then they should turn into wulfen on the full moon only. Every account I've seen, codex or otherwise, has painted them (wulfen) as raging uncontrollable monsters.
Cite a single one, please? Because as I said before, Codex Armageddon paints quite the clear picture of their showing up, mercilessly slaughtering the enemies of the Imperium and then leaving as quickly as they came. No eating of dead bodies, no snarling at the guardsmen whose lives the Wulfen had just saved, no "running around after a stick". In, slaughter, out, quickly and (almost) quietly.
yes they don't change back and forth at will, its only when they lose control of their rage, however thats not the point we're arguing here. And if as you say the canus helix "has taken a stronger hold and won't let go" then I'd say thats a pretty glaring example of genetic deviancy if I've ever seen one.
I'm not sure anyone is trying to argue that Space Wolves don't have a genetic deviancy. The Canis Helix (and the resultant growth of Space Wolves' canine teeth) is quite clearly a genetic deviation. It's also one that's been around since Leman Russ himself, so I think the Administratum is kinda forced to let it slide. It's not like they've got a third eye or tentacles growing all over the place.
I simply fail to see how they are allowed to continue on this path, helpful though their aid may be when others are condemed to death for far less, I mean the relictors used the weapons of chaos against the enemies of the Imperium, yet they were still declared excommunicate and hunted down, and look at the mantis warriors, they were condemned to a 100 year penitent crusade for simply being tricked into playing for the wrong team. I fail to see that in a galaxy of trillions of souls and thousands of space marine chapters, that the loss of the space wolves would be such a devastating blow to the imperium, if anything another chapter would likely claim its resources and armory and take position protecting fenris and surrounding space, if not well, planets and systems have burned for far less
I really, really wish I had my old Codex with me at work. It has a most excellent quote from Balthazar von Heppel about the Space Wolves, and why the Imperium is better for their existence. It simply comes down to the fact that to many of the regular citizens of the Imperium, the Space Wolves above all chapters are heroes. Destroy them, and you destroy the Morale of untold trillions.
Jayden63 wrote:I'm not going to loose sleep over the OP loosing sleep. It seems that the Wolves have fallen out of your favor. Too bad. I'll take your models if you don't want them anymore.
I personally don't see the werewolf aspect that you say is so present. I don't see a single reference of a marine suddenly growing fangs and running on all fours to speed to the enemy then suddenly becoming a man again to fire off their bolters, only to turn back into a wolf and run off after a thrown stick.
They still are old space viking that love drinking and bruising. In a few (granted more now than say in past editions) the Canis Helix has taken a stronger hold and wont let go, thus altering their abilities. But its not rampent, and its not even werewolfdom, its just leads to a more savage nature.
so in essence you're saying that wulfen are in fact not ramapaging bio-engineered monsters. If you're trying to take this as a literal "werewolf" interpretation, then they should turn into wulfen on the full moon only. Every account I've seen, codex or otherwise, has painted them (wulfen) as raging uncontrollable monsters. yes they don't change back and forth at will, its only when they lose control of their rage, however thats not the point we're arguing here. And if as you say the canus helix "has taken a stronger hold and won't let go" then I'd say thats a pretty glaring example of genetic deviancy if I've ever seen one. I simply fail to see how they are allowed to continue on this path, helpful though their aid may be when others are condemed to death for far less, I mean the relictors used the weapons of chaos against the enemies of the Imperium, yet they were still declared excommunicate and hunted down, and look at the mantis warriors, they were condemned to a 100 year penitent crusade for simply being tricked into playing for the wrong team. I fail to see that in a galaxy of trillions of souls and thousands of space marine chapters, that the loss of the space wolves would be such a devastating blow to the imperium, if anything another chapter would likely claim its resources and armory and take position protecting fenris and surrounding space, if not well, planets and systems have burned for far less
If thats your definition of mutation then all marine chapters are chocked full of mutation. Because a Space marines are made by implanting the primarchs gene seed. All space marines start out as humans then become altered. And how many (especially first founding) chapters have a flaw of some sort in them. Probably had something to do with the way the primarchs were outcast through the warp as infants. So where is the line drawn between heretic and altered hero? Who draws that line? And what if there is nothing you can do about it?
Lets face it, its those flaws that make each individual chapter interesting. It would be pretty boring universe if all SM were Ultramarines.
Also its a well known fact that the only fluff that matters is the current fluff. GW changes things willy nilly and really doesn't care about what is cannon and what is not. The only fluff you can go by is what is in the current books. The current fluff has SW at odds with the church, it has them at odds with the administration, it has them drinking and fighting. Its what Wolves always were. So their rune priests got a bump in tabletop power. So what if suddenly lots of equipment suddenly has the word wolf attached to it. The game has to change and evolve. Or what did you want, the same third ed codex units with shiny new pictures?
Space Wolves were the only SM army I ever considered playing, but I didn't start one until the new codex came out. Why? Because its very competitive, has lots of builds, and the fluff still follows what I understood SW to be all this time. Vikings in Space. Only this time with 10% more fur. And I just don't see that as a bad thing.
Like all things in 40K just focus on what you like and ignore the rest. In the 40K universe that I play in the 4th ed Chaos Codex doesn't even exist.
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streamdragon wrote:
Brother Heinrich wrote:
so in essence you're saying that wulfen are in fact not ramapaging bio-engineered monsters. If you're trying to take this as a literal "werewolf" interpretation, then they should turn into wulfen on the full moon only. Every account I've seen, codex or otherwise, has painted them (wulfen) as raging uncontrollable monsters.
Cite a single one, please? Because as I said before, Codex Armageddon paints quite the clear picture of their showing up, mercilessly slaughtering the enemies of the Imperium and then leaving as quickly as they came. No eating of dead bodies, no snarling at the guardsmen whose lives the Wulfen had just saved, no "running around after a stick". In, slaughter, out, quickly and (almost) quietly.
Don't forget also that in the current codex models with Mark of the Wolfen don't trade in any equipment. A grey Hunter with MOTW is just as happy shooting his bolter all game long. Its also not like they gain some more of the radical USRs like Rage or FC. Stuff that shows an increased ferocity and inability to think for themselves or are uncontrollably driven to mindlessly slaughter the closest thing . Its just that when it comes time for HTH, they just get a little more into it than their brothers. Thus I find it more fitting that the Canis Helix has a stronger hold on the poor guy, but he still hasn't completely gone over to full Wulfen and then outcast into the 13th Co or some other ill gotten fate.
Can't we all just get along?! Why is there so much hate??
Or instead of getting along, let's stop this argument and accept that much of the rules (NOT FLUFF HOWEVER) has been changed by games workshop to add some gimmicks and frilly/spangly bits in order to sell more. The core of the book is still very much the Space Wolves we know and love, as is their play-style.
BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly the Space Wolves have always had the Wulfen and Rune Priests, and the Rune Priests did use psychic powers, not many I know but they had them. I also think the Mark of the Wulfen existed in the 3rd edition rule book as something you could take from the wargear section so really I'm not seeing your over all issue.
Becuase beforehand the wolfshagging and mindfeths were only alluded before, where now it's staring you in the face. Ew.
Right, that's why the Werewolf Marines from 3rd ed are totally in the current book, currently you only get a mark for them that shows in the future theses guys may turn into Wolfmen.
streamdragon wrote:Cite a single one, please? Because as I said before, Codex Armageddon paints quite the clear picture of their showing up, mercilessly slaughtering the enemies of the Imperium and then leaving as quickly as they came. No eating of dead bodies, no snarling at the guardsmen whose lives the Wulfen had just saved, no "running around after a stick". In, slaughter, out, quickly and (almost) quietly.
oh sure they saved the nice little guardsmen's lives, but you're referencing one battle, and I'm not saying they attack Imperial citizens and eat them like the flesh tearers, however you can't tell me that all the Imperial navy/Inquisition personnel that have died as a direct result of rubbing the space wolves the wrong way deserved their fate because they were evil or something
streamdragon wrote:I'm not sure anyone is trying to argue that Space Wolves don't have a genetic deviancy. The Canis Helix (and the resultant growth of Space Wolves' canine teeth) is quite clearly a genetic deviation. It's also one that's been around since Leman Russ himself, so I think the Administratum is kinda forced to let it slide. It's not like they've got a third eye or tentacles growing all over the place.
true however, since everyone wants to cite the codex like its the holy bible, have you seen the pictures in the new codex? they look closer in facial structure to daemonettes than the humans they were created from
streamdragon wrote:I really, really wish I had my old Codex with me at work. It has a most excellent quote from Balthazar von Heppel about the Space Wolves, and why the Imperium is better for their existence. It simply comes down to the fact that to many of the regular citizens of the Imperium, the Space Wolves above all chapters are heroes. Destroy them, and you destroy the Morale of untold trillions.
untold billions? I highly doubt the loss of the Space Wolves would result in a galatic session of Emo self mutilation and despair, in the Grim Darkness of the far future....no one cares.
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Melissia wrote:I don't mind the change... I actually think the new codex is one of the only two Marine codices I might one day want to get into.
Brother Heinrich wrote:oh sure they saved the nice little guardsmen's lives, but you're referencing one battle, and I'm not saying they attack Imperial citizens and eat them like the flesh tearers, however you can't tell me that all the Imperial navy/Inquisition personnel that have died as a direct result of rubbing the space wolves the wrong way deserved their fate because they were evil or something
Two things:
1. Again, please cite an example of where the Space Wolves destroyed the Imperial navy "as a direct result of rubbing the space wolves the wrong way".
2. I was citing that battle as an example of Wulfen, whom you consistently attribute to being feral madmen, not being feral madmen. I'm doubting very much that the Wulfen had much part in an Imperial navy battle.
As for Space Wolves vs. Administratum, yeah, the Space Wolves have little use for a bunch of layabouts who hold their positions generally by way of succession instead of earning them. Again though, that's nothing new to this edition of the codex.
true however, since everyone wants to cite the codex like its the holy bible, have you seen the pictures in the new codex? they look closer in facial structure to daemonettes than the humans they were created from
Looking at it right now. They still look like my good ole space vikings. Is there a specific picture you have problems with?
untold billions? I highly doubt the loss of the Space Wolves would result in a galatic session of Emo self mutilation and despair, in the Grim Darkness of the far future....no one cares.
The main tank of the Imperial Guard is the Leman Russ battle tank, named for the Primarch of the Space Wolves chapter of Space Marines. If you seriously think that destroying that chapter wouldn't have adverse effects on the Imperium's population, I don't know what else to say.
streamdragon wrote:Cite a single one, please? Because as I said before, Codex Armageddon paints quite the clear picture of their showing up, mercilessly slaughtering the enemies of the Imperium and then leaving as quickly as they came. No eating of dead bodies, no snarling at the guardsmen whose lives the Wulfen had just saved, no "running around after a stick". In, slaughter, out, quickly and (almost) quietly.
oh sure they saved the nice little guardsmen's lives, but you're referencing one battle, and I'm not saying they attack Imperial citizens and eat them like the flesh tearers, however you can't tell me that all the Imperial navy/Inquisition personnel that have died as a direct result of rubbing the space wolves the wrong way deserved their fate because they were evil or something
streamdragon wrote:I'm not sure anyone is trying to argue that Space Wolves don't have a genetic deviancy. The Canis Helix (and the resultant growth of Space Wolves' canine teeth) is quite clearly a genetic deviation. It's also one that's been around since Leman Russ himself, so I think the Administratum is kinda forced to let it slide. It's not like they've got a third eye or tentacles growing all over the place.
true however, since everyone wants to cite the codex like its the holy bible, have you seen the pictures in the new codex? they look closer in facial structure to daemonettes than the humans they were created from
streamdragon wrote:I really, really wish I had my old Codex with me at work. It has a most excellent quote from Balthazar von Heppel about the Space Wolves, and why the Imperium is better for their existence. It simply comes down to the fact that to many of the regular citizens of the Imperium, the Space Wolves above all chapters are heroes. Destroy them, and you destroy the Morale of untold trillions.
untold billions? I highly doubt the loss of the Space Wolves would result in a galatic session of Emo self mutilation and despair, in the Grim Darkness of the far future....no one cares.
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Melissia wrote:I don't mind the change... I actually think the new codex is one of the only two Marine codices I might one day want to get into.
the other being blood angels?
You. Shoulder. Remove the Chip Off It.
You're not even referring to the recent Codex anymore, you're now referring to any Space Wolf fluff.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, rules-wise is the only real problem with the new Space Wolves Codex (and Lukas), however fluff doesn't confer exactly to rules, so that's a moot point. Just because you can now readily get Rune Priests and MotW doesn't mean it's everywhere within the Legion.
In terms of the Imperium being upset if they lost the Space Wolves? Hell yes. That's one of the original, most power and loyal Legions destroyed. That's the entire sector around Fenris compromised and the morale of much of the imperium crippled. It'd be the same as losing the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. 1000 (over for Space Wolves) marines from a founding legion dead. That'll have a huge affect on the Imperium.
Or to look at it another way, it would barely be noticed.
1/1000th of the SM force "disappeared", with some kind of cover story if necessary.
Gradually over 100s of years the truth emerges of how they went on heroic crusade beyond the Rim, and after many battles which liberated dozens of worlds, were lost to the knowledge of Man.
Their loss is regretted but the Imperiume endures!!
Kilkrazy wrote:Or to look at it another way, it would barely be noticed.
1/1000th of the SM force "disappeared", with some kind of cover story if necessary.
Gradually over 100s of years the truth emerges of how they went on heroic crusade beyond the Rim, and after many battles which liberated dozens of worlds, were lost to the knowledge of Man.
Their loss is regretted but the Imperiume endures!!
thank you sir, that is the point I'm trying to make, listen I love Imperial Fists, but just because they are my favorite loyalist chapter, doesn't mean I believe the entire Imperium revolves around them. It's a big, uncaring galaxy out there. Now blood angels may have codex fluff that smacks of Dr. Suess' imagination, however their points cost reflects their ridiculousness, so I can live with that. Space Wolves grey hunters are now effectively Chaos Space marines with counter attack for the same points cost, while vanilla marines pay more for less on just about everything. I'm sorry if these comments step on any paws but this is my view on the current state of 40k and one of the armies therein. Deal with it.
I accept it's your point, however I'd also like you to try and comprehend another perspective.
I like Space Wolves, but I listen to other arguments and I accept they're not perfect. However, they are most certainly not the pieces of [dog] s**t you make them out to be.
The Imperium doesn't revolve around the Space Wolves, however the Fenris sector (near the EOT) does. Ultramar and it's surrounding worlds would be similarly buggered if the Ultramarines were wiped out. You can't however simply lose one of the most famous and powerful Space Marine chapters and not expect people to care. The Imperium wouldn't exist without the Space Marines or the founding Legions. Arguably we would've lost Armageddon, Cadia and other sectors and key planets a long time ago without the Space Wolves. No they're not perfect (ask the Inquisition), however they are a large boost to the defence of the Imperium.
Except the two units have almost entirely different options, feel, use and fluff.
About all they have in common is they both get bolter, bolt pistol, ccw and grenades. They can take some of the same options (special weapons) but not all, get leaders differently, their Mark wargear is extremely different, etc etc.
But yeah if you ignore their special rules and weapon options and fluff and basically everything but starting gear they're totally the same
Just Dave wrote:I accept it's your point, however I'd also like you to try and comprehend another perspective.
I like Space Wolves, but I listen to other arguments and I accept they're not perfect. However, they are most certainly not the pieces of [dog] s**t you make them out to be.
The Imperium doesn't revolve around the Space Wolves, however the Fenris sector (near the EOT) does. Ultramar and it's surrounding worlds would be similarly buggered if the Ultramarines were wiped out. You can't however simply lose one of the most famous and powerful Space Marine chapters and not expect people to care. The Imperium wouldn't exist without the Space Marines or the founding Legions. Arguably we would've lost Armageddon, Cadia and other sectors and key planets a long time ago without the Space Wolves. No they're not perfect (ask the Inquisition), however they are a large boost to the defence of the Imperium.
True and I don't begrudge them the aid they've given the Imperium (from my IF pov of course ) It just doesn't sit well with me that time and time again I read fluff (Tales of heresy, Legends of the Space Marines, A Thousand Sons) wherein they keep true to there old viking ways and proud warrior traditions, none of which I have a problem with. My issue lies simply with the fact that GW says screw the mass opinion, screw the finer points of their history and traditions, and just turn the WOLF knob to 11. And the psychic powers bug me too, granted not as much as BA, but still for a highly superstitious chapter that treats all things magical(OR PSYCHIC FOR YOU GRAMMAR NAZI'S OUT THERE) in the same way one would a rotting corpse, its a little hypocritical.
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streamdragon wrote:Except the two units have almost entirely different options, feel, use and fluff.
About all they have in common is they both get bolter, bolt pistol, ccw and grenades. They can take some of the same options (special weapons) but not all, get leaders differently, their Mark wargear is extremely different, etc etc.
But yeah if you ignore their special rules and weapon options and fluff and basically everything but starting gear they're totally the same
Just Dave wrote:I accept it's your point, however I'd also like you to try and comprehend another perspective.
I like Space Wolves, but I listen to other arguments and I accept they're not perfect. However, they are most certainly not the pieces of [dog] s**t you make them out to be.
The Imperium doesn't revolve around the Space Wolves, however the Fenris sector (near the EOT) does. Ultramar and it's surrounding worlds would be similarly buggered if the Ultramarines were wiped out. You can't however simply lose one of the most famous and powerful Space Marine chapters and not expect people to care. The Imperium wouldn't exist without the Space Marines or the founding Legions. Arguably we would've lost Armageddon, Cadia and other sectors and key planets a long time ago without the Space Wolves. No they're not perfect (ask the Inquisition), however they are a large boost to the defence of the Imperium.
True and I don't begrudge them the aid they've given the Imperium (from my IF pov of course ) It just doesn't sit well with me that time and time again I read fluff (Tales of heresy, Legends of the Space Marines, A Thousand Sons) wherein they keep true to there old viking ways and proud warrior traditions, none of which I have a problem with. My issue lies simply with the fact that GW says screw the mass opinion, screw the finer points of their history and traditions, and just turn the WOLF knob to 11. And the psychic powers bug me too, granted not as much as BA, but still for a highly superstitious chapter that treats all things magical(OR PSYCHIC FOR YOU GRAMMAR NAZI'S OUT THERE) in the same way one would a rotting corpse, its a little hypocritical.
Well thank you for the consolation and seeing the other side of the argument.
I won't deny, Games Workshop really did go over the top with the Wolf aspect of the codex, however if you look at the core of the fluff - rather than the frilly and sparkly bits GW has added on to sell more - it's still the same old Space Wolves. Almost all chapters use Psykers, it's inevitable, Space Wolves have adapted to the modern imperium it seems, they're still not all over the chapter like a cheap coat however. If you ignore the rules (which WILL NOT confer to the fluff) then they're still the vikings at heart they used to be (and therefore still are), it's just Games Workshop has decided that Lukas the Dickster and other OTT bits of fluff would make it sell better, doesn't mean the core of them is still the same as it used to be; cool.
well hopefully we'll see them return to fold in the future, I feel a hundred year penitent crusade would make up for the slight after all I never said I hated vikings, just vikings who get fed too much twilight
Well this got out of hand very quickly. After leaving the forum for awhile and coming back to it its insane how dramatic and heated this has become. lol
Quoting the codex like the bible, denouncing a fictional sci-fi faction like they were space rapist nazi's, ect.
Really I just think that GW took the last two space marine codexes a little too far with the baubles and bits with no fluff justification behind it. Just "Hey guys wolves and angels sell so well give them insane rules that dont make sense and so many wolves and angel wings they'll want to puke"
I dont mind the SW as a chapter, I used to think they were pretty cool, common space vikings that get drunk and uphold the highest honor without being all highty tighty about it, (looking at you ultraboyscouts) thats awsome! But this last codex while (very good and tournament winning) took away from that by luring new players in with the promise of werewolves and cheese (dont even get me started on blood angels flying landraider).
I rest my case by falling on a middle ground that while the Space wolves are and Iconic and unique irreplacable chapter, they have been sold out with this new codex...out.
Kilkrazy wrote:
Having psykers won't make them uncool but being the favourite army of 13-year olds will do it for sure.
agreed
I second this statement...lol
SW's use to be a rare treat to play against and were often good games because it took skilled players to use them. Now there is a guy at my flgs that's played for 2 months and hardly loses. Of course he runs an ard boyz list in friendly games, but still...not much skill in his playstyle.
Now that I see this thread and am showing up to the party late, I'll jump in here and defend my chapter.
There are differences and a somewhat evolution of the Space Wolves as they have changed from their 2nd edition codex in '95 till now. The biggest 2 that I see are the addition of the Mark of the Wulfen for the Grey Hunters and the Thunderwolf Cav units. I have an explanation for both...
First off, when GW introduced the 13th Company Space Wolf army, they introduced the Wulfen models which were very cool and only really playable with that army. Now that Codex: Eye of Terror is long gone, there are still those of us that have complete 13th Company armies and in order to make use of those models GW introduced the MOTW where we can find a way to add those models to our existing units... Personally, as I own both a regular Space Wolf army as well as a 13th Company Space Wolf army painted in the pre-heresy color scheme I use my wulfen units as Wolf Scouts when I play that army with the new codex.
Second, the Thunderwolf Cav unit is something completely new for this codex. It seems that every new codex that is written has to have some new special unit that did not exist before. Where in the 3rd edition codex we were allowed to take a Leman Russ tank in our army, we lost that and instead can now bring Thunderwolf Cav models. Is there a hint of Hollywood where the whole Twilight: Vampires vs Wearwolves thing... possibly? (Although I thought the Underworld movies did this long before the Twilght movies did.)
Regardless, the Space Wolves remain the steadfast vikings of the Astarties that they have always been.
IMO- If you really want to get into the fluff with the new codex, then look no further than with the Sagas. Taking something like Saga of the Beastslayer, and have your Wolflord run around the table trying to take down the biggest beast is awesome and makes for some great stories within your games.
And to all you Thousand Sons players out there, you're still traitors. (Yes, I read Thousand Sons as well, and anxiously await the release of Prospero Burns next year) However, you still worship chaos and thus we must purge you from the galaxy... I miss the 3rd edition codex where we could hit Thousand Sons and Dark Angels on a 3+ in hth regardless of their WS.
I think people are looking at this debate from two different directions. One half is looking at the codexs and the other half is looking at books and novels, stuff outside of the game.
Unless people have really short memories, the old third ed codex had tons of stuff named "wolf"
Wolf lords
Wolf guard
Wolf guard battle leaders
Wolf tooth Necklace
Wolf tail talismans
Wolf pelts
Wolf Scouts
wolf priests
Wulfen (mark)
Really the only things I think the new codex added that have wolf in the name are Lone Wolves (I dare you to come up with a different name that is as fitting), TWC, and wolf claws. And even at that, the new codex lost the wolf pelt wargear item.
There were other changes too. Yeah, Rune Priest gained some strong psychic powers, but lost a ton stat wise. They lost 1 WS, 1 W, 1 I, 2 A. They are no longer even close to the combat masters they used to be.
Scout always came in on your opponents table edge, now its only 2/3 of the time.
There has to be changes in order for the game to evolve. However books, now books never change. Even after 100 years. If you read Thousand Sons tomorrow, it will be the same read you had 2 years ago, and will still be the same read in 40 years. Even if by that time the SW play like the current Tau on the tabletop.
Its each individuals choice to take as what they want from each source when building the image of Space Wolves in their minds. After all, its you that needs to have fun with the army your playing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I thought there was a lot Ultramarine Haters. Can you imagine if Space Wolves were on the cover of Codex SM! The power of the haters would combine and be unstopppable!
3. Traitors to the Imperium? The Space Wolves are one of, if not the most beloved chapter of Space Marines. The people love them because they do one thing that other Space Marines fail at: they actually care about the people they're protecting, not just the act of protecting them. Grimnar's hatred for the Administratum stems from the Administratum basically turning its heroes (I.e., the IG brave enough to fight off one of the largest demonic incursions the Imperium has ever faced) into slaves, all to cover its own ass. Any other chapter would just shrug, mumble something about "sucks bro, but orders..." and leave.
Sorry, but you seem to have mixed up the Salamanders Chapter with Space Wolves.
Salamanders = Providing critical support for evacuation and protection of civilians, as well as securing vital resources and materials needed to sustain them. Only chapter to not shirk at the vital but inglorious jobs such as these while other chapters kicked arse on the front. If I recall correctly, Tu Shan was hailed by Commissar Yarrick as a peoples hero. Salamanders are a peoples chapter, and arguable the only marine chapter that takes an active interest in the well being of the civilians they protect.
Space Wolves = Fought deamons with Guard. Threw a hissy when the IG components that helped them were forced into work camps and sterilised. This has little-to-nothing to do with actually liking civilians, it was their sense of honour and refusal to abandon previous brothers in arms that was the cause of consternation.
EDIT: I can't recall any fluff, even in thier codex, that claims the people of the Imperium worship and love them.
You didn't read the fluff much because it says the worlds in and near the Fenris Sector revere the Space Wolves because they always do what they can to help. I recall it being mentioned a couple times in the part of the Codex where they have the time line listing, and then they mention a world in one of the Space Wolf Novels.
And before people say the books aren't canon Remember they have the GW seal on them and the BL is owned by GW. Every employee I've talked to says they are canon.
Going of the not GW not canon means much of the Forge World stuff wont be canon either.
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Sorry, but you seem to have mixed up the Salamanders Chapter with Space Wolves.
Salamanders = Providing critical support for evacuation and protection of civilians, as well as securing vital resources and materials needed to sustain them. Only chapter to not shirk at the vital but inglorious jobs such as these while other chapters kicked arse on the front. If I recall correctly, Tu Shan was hailed by Commissar Yarrick as a peoples hero. Salamanders are a peoples chapter, and arguable the only marine chapter that takes an active interest in the well being of the civilians they protect.
Space Wolves = Fought deamons with Guard. Threw a hissy when the IG components that helped them were forced into work camps and sterilised. This has little-to-nothing to do with actually liking civilians, it was their sense of honour and refusal to abandon previous brothers in arms that was the cause of consternation.
EDIT: I can't recall any fluff, even in thier codex, that claims the people of the Imperium worship and love them.
No, I admit that I overlooked Salamanders when talking about chapters that actually help people. Strangely enough, Salamanders are the second Space Marine army I play.
"Threw a hissy" is understating it on a pretty high level. It almost came to outright warfare between the Space Wolves and the Lord Adepts of the Administratum. If it wasn't for Ulrik being there to calm Logan Grimnar down...
Armageddon isn't the only example though:
The Battle for Montberg Spaceport (pg 19) shows that Bran Redmaw (mister Mark of Wulfen himself) refused to follow the Imperial Command's order to abandon the civilians of Thressiax to Hive Fleet Colossus so that the planet could be bombarded from space. He was only there resupplying, but still sent 30 Grey Hunters to shore up the defenses and train the Guard there. 6 Grey Hunters made it out, and the Imperial Command tried to force Redmaw to strip them of all honors for disobeying orders. Instead, he promoted them to his Wolf Guard as a big ole middle finger to the Administratum.
There's also Honour's End, where the Space Wolves attacked the Flesh Tearers to stop them from slaughtering the Imperial Guard and citizens who had been victims of Chaos Space Marine attacks. The Flesh Tearer's claimed to be "purging the unclean", but the renegades were long gone.
I did find the quote I was looking for!
The Space Wolves are the most barbaric of all the Space Marine Chapters. Their home planet is the harsh ice world known as Fenris, where savage tribes, from which the Space Wolves are recruited, are locked in a continual struggle for existence. Perhaps because of this, the Space Wolves have a proud, headstrong nature which makes them difficult to control or direct. But for all this, the Space Wolves are valorous and noble defenders of the Imperium, and are amongst the bravest and most ferocious warriors I have ever met. I can say without doubt that the Imperium would be a far more dangerous place without the Sons of Russ to protect it."
-Inquisitor Bastalek Grim
I also find this quote about Logan somewhat telling:
(stuff about Logan's dislike for the Administratum)...However, more than any other Chapter, the Space Wolves stand ever ready to fight the foes of the Emperor. Under Logan's guidance and fueled by his own thirst for battle (which many of his supporters claim equals that of the lgendary Leman Russ himself) the Space Wolves have defeated many threats from without and within the Imperium, and the vast majority of Imperial commanders within the sectors surrounding Fenris are grateful to be under the Old Wolf's watchful eye. Personally, if I may be so bold, I find the existence of a Chapter Master such as Logan heartily reassuring, for he is a cunning and resourceful leader of the Space Wolves, and yet has about him a charming demeanour and familiar manner which is at odds with the usual aloofness one associates with a commander of the Adeptus Astartes.
-"Leaders of the Adeptus Astartes" - A most secret report, compiled for his Most Supreme Excellency the Paternoval Envoy by his Humble Servant Master Maximoms Pliny
Page 27 of the last Space Wolf dex (not the most recent one)
Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!
At the time of the HH it was illegal to have Psyker Space Marines. Sometime after the Emperor's near death santioning of Psykers for military application came about which includes SM librians.
And that is still, IMNSHO, one of the greatest idiotic mutilations of the previously existing fluff canon to be inflicted by the HH books (and Visions of Heresy). Why on earth they decided to change the Emperor's ruling at the Council of Nikaea from one that made sense to on that now requires an additional "sometime after the Emperor's near death someone changed The Emperor's ruling" bit of unnecessary fluff, I have no idea. But, if the HH stuff is gospel, then there's now no current "official" explanation for why any Chapter has Librarians at all.
They took a backstory that worked, and that was consistent with all the other existing fluff AND with the game, and changed it to something that makes no sense what so ever. If there's a great payoff for that decision, I've yet to see it...
then there's now no current "official" explanation for why any Chapter has Librarians at all.
Because they want to sell models.
Becouse they have had them since the 1st Edition/Rouge Trader Days
The 2nd Edition Book had Njal
The 3rd Edition had Rune Priest
They have always had them.
BrotherStynier wrote:You didn't read the fluff much because it says the worlds in and near the Fenris Sector revere the Space Wolves because they always do what they can to help. I recall it being mentioned a couple times in the part of the Codex where they have the time line listing, and then they mention a world in one of the Space Wolf Novels.
You have mentioned a handful of planets surrounding their Homeworld. It's hardly the entire Imperium, which is what I said. There is little sign that Space Wolves are vastly more loved or feared than the other countless SM chapters out there, and apparently only constant wolfshagging and a finger to the Administratum has kept them worthy of a seperate codex.
streamdragon wrote:
No, I admit that I overlooked Salamanders when talking about chapters that actually help people. Strangely enough, Salamanders are the second Space Marine army I play.
Only SM army worth playing really.
"Threw a hissy" is understating it on a pretty high level. It almost came to outright warfare between the Space Wolves and the Lord Adepts of the Administratum. If it wasn't for Ulrik being there to calm Logan Grimnar down...
Armageddon isn't the only example though:
The Battle for Montberg Spaceport (pg 19) shows that Bran Redmaw (mister Mark of Wulfen himself) refused to follow the Imperial Command's order to abandon the civilians of Thressiax to Hive Fleet Colossus so that the planet could be bombarded from space. He was only there resupplying, but still sent 30 Grey Hunters to shore up the defenses and train the Guard there. 6 Grey Hunters made it out, and the Imperial Command tried to force Redmaw to strip them of all honors for disobeying orders. Instead, he promoted them to his Wolf Guard as a big ole middle finger to the Administratum.
That's a good source. Thanks.
There's also Honour's End, where the Space Wolves attacked the Flesh Tearers to stop them from slaughtering the Imperial Guard and citizens who had been victims of Chaos Space Marine attacks. The Flesh Tearer's claimed to be "purging the unclean", but the renegades were long gone.
Interesting, but not that indicative of SW being 'SM of the People'. If I might use this source a little OT wise, I would rather the Blood Angels have gone down the darker path of the Flesh Tearers than this new "Awesome Codex McBatnipples". *blegh*
Finger to the Admin sounds good enough alone.
What more reason do you need.
More seriously I don't get the criticism for holding out on their sector of the galaxy. Would you send them all off all over the shop and send another chapter less familar with the area to cover? Would such strategic directives come from elsewhere so it isn't the fault of the SW's where thay are posted?
Emperors Faithful wrote:<snip>I would rather the Blood Angels have gone down the darker path of the Flesh Tearers than this new "Awesome Codex McBatnipples". *blegh*
The BA codex is an entirely separate issue. I described it to my friend as "basically, the went out and found the biggest Blood Angels fan boy they could, asked him what he'd want in a codex, and then put cherries on top of it".
I love the staunch defense of the space wolves from all comers, but when it comes to the BA everybody's a hater lol, in the grimdarkfuture there is only hypocrasy
Emperors Faithful wrote:Interesting, but not that indicative of SW being 'SM of the People'. If I might use this source a little OT wise, I would rather the Blood Angels have gone down the darker path of the Flesh Tearers than this new "Awesome Codex McBatnipples". *blegh*
Hmmm. So does that mean nobody collects or plays BA's ?
Maybe they do but just don't admit it.
Or maybe the criticism is not for the chapter itself but for the latest power craze junkies and the GW codex that feeds the addiction.
I'm gonna come out and say it then I'm doing a Dante/Tycho (pre-DC) led Sanguinary Guard Army with Sternguard, yes thats marine army No 7 folks while a small part of my mind goes "help me, the voices have taken over", oh and I want to do a Death Company Army with Astorath/DC Tycho and nothing but DC & DC Dreads.
I think I'm a lost cause by most peoples' standards but I'm enjoying the hobby my way. I don't hate any army.
do what you love I say I found that at my local Hobby shop almost 90% of people talked a whole bunch of trash when the new BA codex came out, and then several weeks later when I guess they though everyone had forgotten what they said, 90% had blood angel armies. priceless.
Well what happened was a Khorne army full of Traitor Guard/Khorne Berserkers/Daemons attacked. And the Space Wolves came to help them out.
But even they were having a hard time so they sent the Grey Knights. Eventually they won. But all of the Armageddon Steel Legion Soldiers who knew about the Daemons where sterilized and sent to work camps.
The Space Wolves thought this was dildos so they want revenge. I also once heard from someone who had the old dex that Space Wolves fired at Inquisition ships that came by.
OMG. Have I found someone who uses "dildo" as much as me? You guys wouldn't know from what I write here,but this word plagues my mind and causes me to have irrational thoughts. "Hey, what time is it?" "It's like, half past dildo,erm..3"
Anyway, I hate the space wolves. Such mindless bastards. I hope their ancient dreadnoughts die in the flames of war
Brother Heinrich wrote:I love the staunch defense of the space wolves from all comers, but when it comes to the BA everybody's a hater lol, in the grimdarkfuture there is only hypocrasy
Are you seriously trying to compare TWC (the only unit different than the previous codex) to the mess that is the BA codex? Deep Striking land raiders? In just about every Force Org slot? Mephiston?
I mean, seriously? What about the new SW dex even remotely approaches that level of "WTF"edness?
Shadowbrand wrote:I also once heard from someone who had the old dex that Space Wolves fired at Inquisition ships that came by.
I looked into this. Turns out you are correct. At one point the Administratum showed up to look into rumors of pagan god worship and the Space Wolves opened up the moment their ships were in range; the Admin. dudes fled. A year later they show back up with the Sororitas in tow and try to forcibly land on the planet. They never made it, and eventually decided it was better to just leave. Granted, this was after Logan had made it clear that he was done with the Administratum...
Anyway, I hate the space wolves. Such mindless bastards. I hope their ancient dreadnoughts die in the flames of war
Mindless? Sure you're not thinking about Khorne? I mean, last edition the army practically played itself!
Brother Heinrich wrote:being a former space wolf myself (first army in 1998) I am ashamed to say I once called myself a son of Russ. the sheer hypocrasy of the new codex floors me, how can they justify the space wolves casting down the thousdand sons for being mutants and psykers, when they themselves now have some of the most powerful pychic powers/units in the game and are forever on the brink of turning into slavering monsters in power armor. what happened to wulfen being outcasts and frowned upon, what happened to the superstition and mistrust of magic, why have the space vikings turned into space werewolves?!
At the time of the HH it was illegal to have Psyker Space Marines. Sometime after the Emperor's near death santioning of Psykers for military application came about which includes SM librians.
And that is still, IMNSHO, one of the greatest idiotic mutilations of the previously existing fluff canon to be inflicted by the HH books (and Visions of Heresy). Why on earth they decided to change the Emperor's ruling at the Council of Nikaea from one that made sense to on that now requires an additional "sometime after the Emperor's near death someone changed The Emperor's ruling" bit of unnecessary fluff, I have no idea. But, if the HH stuff is gospel, then there's now no current "official" explanation for why any Chapter has Librarians at all.
They took a backstory that worked, and that was consistent with all the other existing fluff AND with the game, and changed it to something that makes no sense what so ever. If there's a great payoff for that decision, I've yet to see it...
Valete,
JohnS
At the time The Emperor was still using the "Ignorance is bliss" strategy to deal with the Chaos gods. He knew about 'em but was playing it close to the vest. Turns out knowledge is dangerous when it comes to those wacky extradimensional invaders. However after the seige of terra with the numberless armies of slobbering deamons assualting the walls it was kinda hard to keep under wraps after that. So now that the cats out of the bag they'd figure they might as well sanction some psykers who know how to blow up stuff into professional stuff-blower-uppers.
By the way, to whoever said it, I checked in the codex and it said that both civilians and IG were sent to the camps on Armegeddon, not just the Guardsmen.
DEATH89 wrote:Ta! And now (to the same tune as the wizard of oz)
I'm off to paint the nipples, the wonderful nipples of ours!
Good luck to your, sir.
streamdragon wrote:
I mean, seriously? What about the new SW dex even remotely approaches that level of "WTF"edness?
Well for one, the Chapter that isn't too fond of Psykers happens to have THE most powerful psyker model in the game. Eldrad has wet dreams about this guy. Of course, he does cost the same as your average Land Raider...
Snikkyd wrote:By the way, to whoever said it, I checked in the codex and it said that both civilians and IG were sent to the camps on Armegeddon, not just the Guardsmen.
I think it was any and all that had anything to do with the fighting or knew extensively about the nature of the invasion. For the most part, other areas of Armageddon (which had escaped attention) were untouched by the purge, or at least only high ranking officials were culled. Funnily enough, it is with a hint of just irony that the highest ranking planetary official probably worked for the rest of his life in those camps alongside the lowliest guardsman that had fought on the front lines.
Anpu42 wrote:Here is my Reason, and to honest, I have been playing them since the old Rouge Trader 1st Edition Days.
Lol, so true. Not the reason i play them though. I play them because they can annihilate almost any army at close-range, or shoot da f*** outta anything. Hypocrisy is rich coming from Chaos though,
How do I sleep? Well, I lay down on my bed, read something (sanctioned books!) and then I roll onto my right side, facing the wall, I close my eyes and there it goes.
To the OP welcome to the 5th Edition Codex I'm very sorry you don't like it I used to be a Blood Angels player in about 1990 and now I can't stand them so I know the feeling. However I have collected Space Wolves since Second Edition and yes there have been progressive changes and the current armies you now see on the table are not reminicent of the fluff from previous editions however neither are lists that include 2 Lash Deamon Princes, Eldar armies that always include Elthrad thingumydodah, Blood Angels with deep striking Landraiders, Vulkan He'stan Shrike and Lysander leading every space marine army from every chapter, Every IG army having an Iquisitor + Mystics I could go on but I've bored myself so I will probably have bored you.
The point is that one of the very best things about the new Space Wolves Codex is that you can build very competetive lists that stick to the status quo fluff. Rune Priests while very good are not mandatory, MoW is fantastic but after you've rolled a one on the D6 several games/turns in a row you rely on boots and bolters which are fail proof. We can all take a Codex (ok not DE) and build a fluffy list that is competetive and we can also take a codex and completely take the piss and build a cookie cutter internet geek list that is not particularly fun to play with unless you are WAAC but people play what makes them enjoy the game as I say sorry you don't like the direction it has taken but plenty of people do so enjoy playing you IF.
To all those quoting fluff sources like they are the minutes of the companies last AGM grow up it is a fantasy world of little toy soldiers we all have our own opinions about it and that is the joy of the hobby there is no point loosing sleep or your temper about the collected works of distinctly average writers.
Gwar! wrote:The events on the Wolf of Fenris are Chaos Lies and propaganda!
If it helps you sleep at night...traitor.
=
Thou shall not mention the forbidded Chaos dex for it is evil and an abomination unto Nuggan.
Or shall i remind you how far the servants of the gods have fallen?
"Let no good deed go unpunished.
Let no evil deed go unrewarded."
Compared to this the puppies should be able to sleep relatively well, despite their wolf-molesting tendencies.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Hey, you've got to admit. It's better than the Blood Angels Codex.
I think we established that awhile back.
Whats worse TWC, or Sang guard?
Giant wolves, or brass nipples?
(insert Twilight joke here)
Well I'll take the unpopular stand here. How are assault marines in greco-roman style armor in the long established colors of the elite of the army harder to swallow than space marines riding shaggy hippos? In my opinion, TWC are fluffwise the lamest thing GW have come up with in years, possibly ever.
The only thing I'll agree to is the WTF-edness of Meph being a small MC.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Hey, you've got to admit. It's better than the Blood Angels Codex.
I think we established that awhile back.
Whats worse TWC, or Sang guard?
Giant wolves, or brass nipples?
(insert Twilight joke here)
Well I'll take the unpopular stand here. How are assault marines in greco-roman style armor in the long established colors of the elite of the army harder to swallow than space marines riding shaggy hippos? In my opinion, TWC are fluffwise the lamest thing GW have come up with in years, possibly ever.
The only thing I'll agree to is the WTF-edness of Meph being a small MC.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Hey, you've got to admit. It's better than the Blood Angels Codex.
I think we established that awhile back.
Whats worse TWC, or Sang guard?
Giant wolves, or brass nipples?
(insert Twilight joke here)
Well I'll take the unpopular stand here. How are assault marines in greco-roman style armor in the long established colors of the elite of the army harder to swallow than space marines riding shaggy hippos? In my opinion, TWC are fluffwise the lamest thing GW have come up with in years, possibly ever.
The only thing I'll agree to is the WTF-edness of Meph being a small MC.
agreed on both counts
So you mean riding giant animals to war, a thing that has been done in our world since freaking Hannibal... is more silly than Ork warp drives functioning by every Ork on the ship shouting "Ere we go, ere we go!", Imperial Guard using WW1 era technology for their tanks and Star gods that usually can destroy a world by looking at them is a pretty mediocre thing on the battlefield? Note that I enjoy the two first point there very much, I just cant see why suddenly riding animals into battle, in a sci-fantasy setting is the worst thing since non-sliced bread.
Sarapham wrote:So you mean riding giant animals to war, a thing that has been done in our world since freaking Hannibal... is more silly than Ork warp drives functioning by every Ork on the ship shouting "Ere we go, ere we go!", Imperial Guard using WW1 era technology for their tanks and Star gods that usually can destroy a world by looking at them is a pretty mediocre thing on the battlefield? Note that I enjoy the two first point there very much, I just cant see why suddenly riding animals into battle, in a sci-fantasy setting is the worst thing since non-sliced bread.
not at all, there is plenty of ridiculousness in the 40k universe, I could start a whole thread on my hatred for Orks who run on positive thinking, but this thread is about the Space Wolves and how hypocratic they've become, partially due to tabletop units/abilities, partially due to fluff inconsistencies, and all 100% due to GW trying to make money.
but this thread is about the Space Wolves and how hypocratic they've become, partially due to tabletop units/abilities, partially due to fluff inconsistencies, and all 100% due to GW trying to make money.
What!
When did the Wolfies all become doctors?
Is it cos they have laser guns they can practice surgery now?
Brother Heinrich wrote:not at all, there is plenty of ridiculousness in the 40k universe, I could start a whole thread on my hatred for Orks who run on positive thinking, but this thread is about the Space Wolves and how hypocratic they've become, partially due to tabletop units/abilities, partially due to fluff inconsistencies, and all 100% due to GW trying to make money.
Other than their supposed hatred for psykers (which is a ridiculous notion, when you think about it, considering the Emperor himself is a psyker!), what about them is hypocritical? Their use of wolves has been around since at least the previous codex which mentions "fenrisian wolves the size of rhinos", they've just never had an actual unit for it. How is that any more hypocritical than the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons of all people?
GW trying to make money? The only new unit they introduced was the TWC, which they don't even make a model for other than Canis! Canis is one of two new special character models. I'm not saying they weren't trying to make money (clearly they were, they are a business after all! ), but if they were really trying to bilk Space Wolf players for moola then they would have updated the god awful Ragnar Blackmane model! XD
Brother Heinrich wrote:not at all, there is plenty of ridiculousness in the 40k universe, I could start a whole thread on my hatred for Orks who run on positive thinking, but this thread is about the Space Wolves and how hypocratic they've become, partially due to tabletop units/abilities, partially due to fluff inconsistencies, and all 100% due to GW trying to make money.
Other than their supposed hatred for psykers (which is a ridiculous notion, when you think about it, considering the Emperor himself is a psyker!), what about them is hypocritical? Their use of wolves has been around since at least the previous codex which mentions "fenrisian wolves the size of rhinos", they've just never had an actual unit for it. How is that any more hypocritical than the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons of all people?
GW trying to make money? The only new unit they introduced was the TWC, which they don't even make a model for other than Canis! Canis is one of two new special character models. I'm not saying they weren't trying to make money (clearly they were, they are a business after all! ), but if they were really trying to bilk Space Wolf players for moola then they would have updated the god awful Ragnar Blackmane model! XD
The only other point of hypocrisy that I see is there hatred for the mutant and yet they them selves are wolf mutants.
And GW was not making money by putting out new models. Quite the opposite really, by not putting the money in to upgrading the whole line and then putting out a OP codex (just the start of a new generation of such) they made a massive profit selling their old models to new bandwagon players. Much to the resentment of old school wolf players no doubt who had old models and got no new ones just lots of tournament cheese players whos only victory in life is to crawl out of thier mothers basments and go suck all the fun out of a beer and pretzels game at a tournament (with any one of the new and obsene power gaming lists you can make out of any of the codexes from the last 8 months ).
Brother Heinrich wrote:not at all, there is plenty of ridiculousness in the 40k universe, I could start a whole thread on my hatred for Orks who run on positive thinking, but this thread is about the Space Wolves and how hypocratic they've become, partially due to tabletop units/abilities, partially due to fluff inconsistencies, and all 100% due to GW trying to make money.
Other than their supposed hatred for psykers (which is a ridiculous notion, when you think about it, considering the Emperor himself is a psyker!), what about them is hypocritical? Their use of wolves has been around since at least the previous codex which mentions "fenrisian wolves the size of rhinos", they've just never had an actual unit for it. How is that any more hypocritical than the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons of all people?
GW trying to make money? The only new unit they introduced was the TWC, which they don't even make a model for other than Canis! Canis is one of two new special character models. I'm not saying they weren't trying to make money (clearly they were, they are a business after all! ), but if they were really trying to bilk Space Wolf players for moola then they would have updated the god awful Ragnar Blackmane model! XD
ahh my dear Streamdragon, back to spit more hatred and vitrol as always, well lets pick apart your statement shall we? First off you mention their hatred for psykers and say that it is a ridiculous notion because the Emperor himself is one, yet if I recall correctly the Emperor was the one who forbade Magnus and all the space marine legions to use their powers and do away with the librarian specialty. So you defending the space wolves use of psychic powers by saying the Emperor is psychic as well really has no solid basis upon which to stand. Secondly I never discredited the use of fenrisian wolves, the wolves have always been a part of Space Wolf lore, however previously only wolf lords had the grit to actually tame them. Now you have Space Marines in POWER ARMOR which, as I recall is rather heavy, riding on the backs of wolves. If you know anything about biology you would know that wolves, like many land based apex predators, have flexible spines which allow them the dexterity to grapple with prey. An animal with a flexible spine cannot be ridden like a horse due to the havoc you would wreak on its spinal column which is not in any shape or form built for load bearing. Horse spines on the other hand are rigid, like many herbivores, which is what originally allowed mankind to tame and ride them. Now moving on to your money concerns, If you think that GW would have sold billions of Ragnar Blackmane models, had he been updated, then you have a very skewed idea of economics my friend. Now I know you are not simply basing you opinion on one model because you obviously have better things to do with your time than spit bitter fanboy hatred on a generally relaxed forum site, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However even here you are wrong, as my good friend Laughing God has already stated, they updated almost the entire model line, and gave them a codex which as far as psychic powers are concerned, gave a middle finger to every previous piece of fluff regarding their mistrust of "witchery". Now as a counterpoint to all this I would like to state that I would be the first to cheer for the space wolves as loyal protectors of the Imperium of Man, after all I am a former son of Fenris myself, however GW has made a mockery of many of the finely crafted traditions and practices of that noble legion. I fervently hope that in the future they will return to the space faring vikings they once were.
oh and on an additional note, the blood Angels working with the Necrons is most certainly an absurd notion, however a man by the name of christ once said remove the plank from your own eye before you judge the splinter in anothers, place the space wolves in the same position and see what they would do. and please save us all the time and don't write something absurd like 'they wud hav wun cuz theyz da bestist mahreens in da hol wide galaxy' thank you for your time.
Melissia wrote:Not to justify TWC, but these aren't Terran Wolves. These are Fenrisian Wolves.
So your saying they have rigid spines? once again look up your biological facts before you try to refute mine.
Anpu42 wrote:The whole "Hated of Witchery" thing is being taken wrong.
Remember in most Historical Societies my Priest is good and yours is an Evil Witch.
All you're doing is reinforcing my point about Space Wolf hypocrisy, thank you.
Snikkyd wrote:Thunderwolves are different than Fenrisian Wolves. I see people complain about the "realism" of TWC, and I don't really understand it.
Because SO much of 40k is realistic.
Once again look above, and also if you want to simply write off my argument as "taking things to serious" or something, then why even bother calling it science fiction, because then it might as well just be called warhammer fantasy.
Snikkyd wrote:Thunderwolves are different than Fenrisian Wolves. I see people complain about the "realism" of TWC, and I don't really understand it.
Because SO much of 40k is realistic.
I guess I don't like getting my fantasy in my 40k. if I wanted cavalry units I'd play Fantasy. And before someone mentions rough riders I think they're lame as well but at least they have guns and are riding horses. And as for daemonic cavalry I would think it was strange if daemons were driving around on motorcycles (call it a double standard).
As to the space wolves being drastically different than they were I just don't see it (TWC aside).As for rune priests they have always had them and you could always take 4 of them iirc- but it was never fluffy. But an armies' fluff validity should not be based on what they can do. My BA can have 5 psykers in a list; guard can have 30; CSM can have 2 daemon princes; there has always been a difference between fluffy armies and WAAC armies
This is just more of a point of Interest, but I think it is relevent here.
Calvary will be around as long as figured out it was better to ride horses than eat them.
Currently in Afganastan US Special Forcers are using Horses. Infact the last US Cavalry Charge was in 2001.
I think if we found Rhino sized Wolves we would do one of a few things and maby more than one.
1] Kill them all
2] Tame them and use them for show
3] After a long night of Drinking try to ride them.
Wraithlordmechanic wrote:who were they fighting? french children?
I still haven't seen pics.
They said they did it.
Who would have taken the Picks? The Taliban?
But back on subject
I lkie all of the Fuffy good Fluffyness of the Space Wolves. My only Complaint it that there is no Offical TWC Mini's.
I see no Hypocracy with the Rune Priest, they are the Space Wolves Rune Priest, I would see it if thier Rune Priest followed the normal Marines style, but they Don't.
Thank you wraithlord; as a U.S. marine fighting in the war I find the idea of horses in Afghanistan inconceivable and as a helicopter mechanic (MODERN day cavalry) very impractical and unbelievable if not suicidal or idiotic. AND no you are not missing the point my only point is the hypocrisy of the space wolves hatred of psykers yet having the most powerful in the game, and hatred of mutants yet being mutants themselves. It all cries hypocrisy. But those are the only 2 things, don’t know how much more simply I can put it.
Fiction does mean in fact "not real" or "imaginary" so take your pick. So to argue the pointlessness of arguing fluff defeats your own point...good job.
Lets say they have fused mechanical spines or because they are "super cool fenrisian wolves" they have fused spines. This still makes it impossible for them to be effective killing machines and little better than horses which are useless in modern day warfare let alone the 41st millennium. You can argue the power of future technology and genetics but the facts are physics and biology says that a 1 or 2 ton man can’t sit on a fang rhino and fly across the battlefield like Zorro and still be combat effective. Just not going to happen. Just another GW sucker feeding off the over the top epicness they hope you will to convert a stupid illogical model to put in a stupid cheese/fur covered army so you can win tournaments and gain a fraction of self esteem.
The space wolves are a cool army and I understand loyalty to army and philosophy of such, I just cant agree with what GW has turned the Awesome space Vikings into for commercialism. Dudes riding wolves, witches shooting lighting across an entire battlefield, and mutant werewolves with D6 attacks...whatever. Like my brother Hienrich said "they wud hav wun cuz theyz da bestist mahreens in da hol wide galaxy"...Drop the act fanboys, the wolves are still cool, they just got sold out. Admit it.
Sigh..., theres no getting around it, everyone has fluff they dislike, but arguing that a whole army has been destroyed just because of some bad fluff seems pointless to me.If the new codex ruined SW for you, fine, but it didn't for most of us. Don't say they completely suck now just because you don't like it.
Are you guys seriously going to point out the same three things wrong with the fluff over and over again just to make a point? Everyone here is nitpicking IMO.Its like the people who complain about the refridgerator part in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, yeah it made no sense, but who cares, did you even watch the good parts of the movie?
All I'm saying is, there's some good and bad fluff in every codex. There's always something that someone hates. Let it go, you'll feel better.
.Its like the people who complain about the refridgerator part in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, yeah it made no sense, but who cares, did you even watch the good parts of the movie?
.
there were good parts?
Any way laughing god, the mark of the wulfen represents someone who's going feral right? and it's been around since the last 'dex. What has changed? As I recall it came from failure of the canis helix and, while distasteful, not caused by the taint of chaos which is the mutation they are really concerned about. When it comes to mutation within loyalist legions they are a bit more forgiving. Case in point was a bit of fluff from the Raven Guard index astartes article entitled "legend of the weregeld" in which Corax's attempts to quickly bring his legion back to fighting strength following the Istvaan massacre resulted in mutant abominations which were once let loose on the field of battle in death company fashion. the only friendly witnesses: the Space Wolves. Who did they tell about this gross infraction? not a soul. Cool story if you can find it.
Apart from physiology of the wolves the marines look like they are riding those kiddie rockers you see at supermarkets if you don't have a sufficiently big mount.
Even if it is fantasy for me there has to be some plausibility. Guess my suspension of disbelief threshold is fairly low. Brazen nipples I can understand. 8 foot superhumans clad in power armour on canines is another matter.
But the 40K universe is a big place and we don't need to be as dogmatic as the Imperium and impose beliefs
Hopefully this will inspire someone who reads this thread to build an Iron Warriors army with saftey signals, hard hats and Work in Progress-Slow Down signs for objectives.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Hopefully this will inspire someone who reads this thread to build an Iron Warriors army with saftey signals, hard hats and Work in Progress-Slow Down signs for objectives.
holy jesus thats a great idea, I know what I'm doing this weekend.
well alot of my stuff is already modelled in a much more sinister tone, however I like the idea of objective markers being construction related, you know stuff like 'hard hat area' and 'marines at work' and whatnot, maybe a cement mixer or wheel barrow full of tools lol
Brother Heinrich wrote:ahh my dear Streamdragon, back to spit more hatred and vitrol as always
I ... I don't even know how to respond to that. Hatred and vitrol? I think you may be reading a bit too much into my posts. Perhaps I'll simply respond to the salient points.
Secondly I never discredited the use of fenrisian wolves, the wolves have always been a part of Space Wolf lore, however previously only wolf lords had the grit to actually tame them. Now you have Space Marines in POWER ARMOR which, as I recall is rather heavy, riding on the backs of wolves. <snip bio stuff>
You are seriously going to worry about biology in a game that features 8 foot tall men that can spit acid and have a second layer of skin designed to interface with a machine? Really? I mean, you've seen the art for this game. There are scribes that are literally bolted to their stations, men with floating robot skulls cybernetically linked to their brains and all manner of things in a world of fantastical science fiction, and you're going to worry about the biology of a wolf which is stated to grow large enough to rival an APC? I mean, the Rhino APC is designed to carry 10 Space Marines. You really think a wolf that big can't carry 1?
Now moving on to your money concerns, If you think that GW would have sold billions of Ragnar Blackmane models, had he been updated, then you have a very skewed idea of economics my friend. Now I know you are not simply basing you opinion on one model because you obviously have better things to do with your time than spit bitter fanboy hatred on a generally relaxed forum site, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However even here you are wrong, as my good friend Laughing God has already stated, they updated almost the entire model line
You're telling me that if they had updated what is arguably one of the worst models in the line, that they wouldn't have made money off of him? I wasn't suggesting that he be the only model they updated, merely that if they wanted to make more money, they could have updated him along with the rest. They could have also released official TWC models, but that's neither here nor there
and gave them a codex which as far as psychic powers are concerned, gave a middle finger to every previous piece of fluff regarding their mistrust of "witchery".
How many editions now have Space Wolves had Rune Priests? Basically all of them? How is this codex any different? Because they got JotWW? This is about JotWW isn't it? Everyone loves to hate on JotWW. With my main opponent being Eldar, I haven't gotten that much use from it honestly :( If there's something else I'm missing, by all means please let me know.
...however GW has made a mockery of many of the finely crafted traditions and practices of that noble legion. I fervently hope that in the future they will return to the space faring vikings they once were.
I guess I'm not sure what, exactly, you think has made a mockery of "the finely crafted traditions and practices of that noble legion". They still have their own brand of initiation ritual, they still have the attitude that protecting the Imperium comes above all things, they still hold Leman Russ and the Emperor up as ideal warriors, they still value bravery, honor and strength, they still are at the forefront of the battle against the enemies of mankind. The only thing that this iteration of their codex really added was Thunderwolf mounts, new psychic powers and...? Wolf Claws?
oh and on an additional note, the blood Angels working with the Necrons is most certainly an absurd notion, however a man by the name of christ once said remove the plank from your own eye before you judge the splinter in anothers
Wasn't it, "Let he among you without sin cast the first stone"?
...and please save us all the time and don't write something absurd like 'they wud hav wun cuz theyz da bestist mahreens in da hol wide galaxy'
And this is, honestly, a little insulting. I've met every point you've posted with quotes from official sources of both fluff and rules. I've backed up just about every assertion I've made, as opposed to suggesting that GW was trying to get on the Twilight bandwagon; so please, practice what you preach?
oh and on an additional note, the blood Angels working with the Necrons is most certainly an absurd notion, however a man by the name of christ once said remove the plank from your own eye before you judge the splinter in anothers
Wasn't it, "Let he among you without sin cast the first stone"?
He said both.
Unless you're trying to use that as a comeback or something in which case you need better ones.
Brother Heinrich wrote:well since we're now simply arguing cool, I'll say that the Iron warriors are probably the best loyalist chapter in the Imperium.
You said Iron Warriors were a loyalist chapter. You're wrong. They are Chaos. Don't like to be corrected? Then check your post for accuracy.
I think he was saying that it Iron Warriors are so cool you can call them whatever you want, even if them being suddenly loyalist makes absolutely no sense.
you 
) It just doesn't sit well with me that time and time again I read fluff (Tales of heresy, Legends of the Space Marines, A Thousand Sons) wherein they keep true to there old viking ways and proud warrior traditions, none of which I have a problem with. My issue lies simply with the fact that 
Need i say, all haters just got SHUT DOWN
I ... I don't even know how to respond to that. Hatred and vitrol? I think you may be reading a bit too much into my posts. Perhaps I'll simply respond to the salient points.
