N Korea seeks $75 trillion in compensation

Cash-strapped North Korea has demanded the United States pay almost $US65 trillion ($75 trillion) in compensation for six decades of hostility.

The official North Korean news agency, KCNA, says the cost of the damage done by the US since the peninsula was divided in 1945 is estimated at $US64.96 trillion.

The compensation call comes on the eve of the 60th anniversary of the start of the 1950-1953 Korean War.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/24/2936414.htm?section=justin



Mwahahahaha. I kind of expected it to say 'N Korea demands $75 trillion and the technology of papyrus.'

You gotta love those wacky Koreans...

The US should send 75 trillion doll-hairs and see if the North Koreans get the joke.

$75 Trillion? You could BUY the whole country, lock stock and barrel, for a fraction of that amount.

The problem is if the US does send them the money Kim Jong will only go and blow it on cuban heeled shoes and panthers...

Don't talk rubbish, he'll use it to upgrade his film collection to Blu-ray.

What you say?



NO!

Damn YOU and your stupid head America!

I would have sold all that I own (which admitedly is not all that much) to have been a fly on the wall when "the precious leader" saw that film for the first time

Seventy five teradollars. $75,000,000,000,000. Does that kind of money exist?

Did Kim have his pinkie to the corner of his mouth when he made this demand?

this is so "Austin Powers" its not even funny....

I wonder if he will let us pay it off in installments or does he want it all at once.

Its only fair. If we had let them conquer South Korea everything would be like paradise.

What exactly is keep us from just pushing the red button on these guys again? We are at war after all.

No way will America pay. It's not in their nature. They'll just laugh at Korea. Then invade them

The US should send an invoice for all the military spending required to to keep an eye on NK.

I saw a doco on a aircraft carrier that has to patrol the waters around there. Looked expensive.

We don't negotiate with terrorists!!



ok, I can't keep a straight face... kkkkk.

You see, the thing with the Norks is that they are petulant children. If you don't give them enough attention, they cry.

agnosto wrote:We don't negotiate with terrorists!!



ok, I can't keep a straight face... kkkkk.

You see, the thing with the Norks is that they are petulant children. If you don't give them enough attention, they cry.

Actually they are after less attention from the US, but thats a long term goal.

This move isnt as stupid as it looks. What the North Koreans are saying is, 'this is how much US agression is costing us' a point of view which will draw some sympathy from China. It places the US as the agressor, which isnt exactly unfair in a long term perspective as the various sanctions used against them hit hard even as they hit quiet. It also focuses anger internally at the US, which helps the government get over their ills.

Orlanth wrote:

Actually they are after less attention from the US, but thats a long term goal.

This move isnt as stupid as it looks. What the North Koreans are saying is, 'this is how much US agression is costing us' a point of view which will draw some sympathy from China. It places the US as the agressor, which isnt exactly unfair in a long term perspective as the various sanctions used against them hit hard even as they hit quiet. It also focuses anger internally at the US, which helps the government get over their ills.

As to being after less attention; they have always been trying to negotiate direct diplomatic ties with the U.S.

I don't know how demanding more money than actually exists on the planet will do anything except make everyone laugh at them more than they already do. All sanctions have been U.N. approved so I fail to see how the US could be singled out as an agressor...especially since the Korean War was a U.N. action but just like these days, the US supplied most of the troops. I agree that they are attempting to focus internal anger on an outside source because just like people who are generational welfare receivers, it's always another person's fault when life doesn't go your way.

The thing with N. Korea is that they only exist at the sufferance of China and if China ever withdraws that support, they'll collapse quickly. China won't disavow them; however, because the refugee problem of a failed Nork state would be horrendous.

Edit:
Korea also makes regular demands for cash from other countries.
Swaziland:
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/03/22/2010032200297.html

South Korea:
http://www.issuepost.com/news/story/19498.html

Sometimes they just demand food:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/IF02Dg01.html

Yeah, they're so downtrodden.

I have to third the Austin powers comments. That is the first thing I thought of when I read that blurb.

And I pictured the slow responsive laughter too. Mwaha.......Mwahaha......MWahahahaha........MWahahahahahahahah........Mwahahahahahahahahahahaha

GG

75 Trillion dollars. Send them Bill Gates!

And yes, Austin Powers is good, very good.

agnosto wrote:
As to being after less attention; they have always been trying to negotiate direct diplomatic ties with the U.S.

Yes, that grants them less attention. The more people in the loop the higher the profile.

agnosto wrote:
I don't know how demanding more money than actually exists on the planet will do anything except make everyone laugh at them more than they already do.

Only fools laugh, you are looking at this with an overly western mindset. You are also mistaken if you think the Koreans or Chinese care if you laugh. North Korea sets its own standard for truth, its a steady political standpoint for a totalitarian regime. Externally its better to say 'you must pay that', rather that 'this is how much you are costing us'. The latter is the same as the former, but the latter can be easily ignored internally and externally the former is also more assertive and apportions blame once payment is denied. North Korea doesnt expect a cent from the US, thats not the point of the demand. Anyone who thinks the North Koreans made this startment with any expectation to be paid anything is mistaken.
Also look at the rtiming. Obama has been crowing 'compensation' regarding the Gulf oil spill. So its an excellent time to make similar sounding demands.

agnosto wrote:
All sanctions have been U.N. approved so I fail to see how the US could be singled out as an agressor...

This adds to the ideology that the UN is a US lapdog, the Iraq war highlights this point, and the obstacles to any resolution against Israel.

agnosto wrote:
The thing with N. Korea is that they only exist at the sufferance of China and if China ever withdraws that support, they'll collapse quickly.

This is true, but could also be said for a number of regimes across the world. Israel would survive without US help now, but for much of its time it wouldnt. The concept of a client state is not unique to North Korea, this is one reason why this avenue is not approached. It would be too easily debunked as gross hypocrasy.

agnosto wrote:
China won't disavow them; however, because the refugee problem of a failed Nork state would be horrendous.

Not at all, China wouldnt even notice even if all 24 million North Koreans fled across the border. China wont back down on ideological grounds and on the grounds of power politics. A united Korea would be an anti-chinese Korea as the South Korean culture would dominate.

Orlanth wrote:Yes, that grants them less attention. The more people in the loop the higher the profile.

I fail to see your point here; if formal, diplomatic ties were ever established, the Norks would be receiving even more attention. No, they just want someone in the international community to take them seriously and if they were closer to the US they wouldn't be the ugly cousin so much anymore.

Orlanth wrote:Only fools laugh, you are looking at this with an overly western mindset. You are also mistaken if you think the Koreans or Chinese care if you laugh. North Korea sets its own standard for truth, its a steady political standpoint for a totalitarian regime. Externally its better to say 'you must pay that', rather that 'this is how much you are costing us'. The latter is the same as the former, but the latter can be easily ignored internally and externally the former is also more assertive and apportions blame once payment is denied. North Korea doesnt expect a cent from the US, thats not the point of the demand. Anyone who thinks the North Koreans made this startment with any expectation to be paid anything is mistaken.
Also look at the rtiming. Obama has been crowing 'compensation' regarding the Gulf oil spill. So its an excellent time to make similar sounding demands.

Nobody cares if I, personally, laugh; however, no intelligent person is going to take an obscene demand seriously. Read my original post for some other Nork demands. N.Korea is always demanding something from some country or other and they are inevitably turned down; heck, a few months ago they were demanding new fighter jets from China. It's similar to the boy that cried wolf. Frankly, I believe the international community just looks at N.Korea as the insane hermit that lives down the street; he chases the kids off his lawn and does a lot of fist shaking but don't take him too seriously.

Orlanth wrote:This adds to the ideology that the UN is a US lapdog, the Iraq war highlights this point, and the obstacles to any resolution against Israel.

That's opinion; you well know that the U.N. often goes against the wishes of the U.S. There is definitely no roughshod happening in the security council, for example.

Orlanth wrote:This is true, but could also be said for a number of regimes across the world. Israel would survive without US help now, but for much of its time it wouldnt. The concept of a client state is not unique to North Korea, this is one reason why this avenue is not approached. It would be too easily debunked as gross hypocrasy.

If China were to turn their back on the Norks, they would be losing about 70% of their trade. For a country that is continually starved (no pun intended) for hard currency that's not a great way to go. Israel is not a great comparison as they are already a comparatively rich country with trade ties to most of the world whereas N.Korea has limited diplomatic ties and even more limited trade ties. In fact, when the south broke their trade ties with them last month, they lost their second biggest trade partner. When the Russians pulled back from N. Korea, they really felt it; in fact it is a major reason their economy tanked even more.

Orlanth wrote:Not at all, China wouldnt even notice even if all 24 million North Koreans fled across the border. China wont back down on ideological grounds and on the grounds of power politics. A united Korea would be an anti-chinese Korea as the South Korean culture would dominate.

You have a partial point here; however, the influx of a huge mass of underfed, panicked people would daunt even China. They have enough trouble feeding themselves without poisoning their own children. Any refugees wouldn't be able to go South immediately due to all the landmines and guns. The DMZ makes for an interesting tour; you should take it if you're ever in Korea.

Want some more info on what happens in wacky-land, check out S. Korean newspapers. I used to like the Korea Times more but the Chosun Ilbo's got some good aticles.
http://english.chosun.com/svc/list.html?catid=12

Thanks for the intelligent conversation by the way.

Seriously, China shuts down the pipeline and NK goes dark. NK done in 24 hours.

North Korea makes the best counterfeit $20 in the world. I'm told by a high level bureaucrat in the Treasury Department that the DPKR's 20s are so good the U.S. should actually outsource printing to them. If they want the $75 trillion they can just print it.

olympia wrote:North Korea makes the best counterfeit $20 in the world. I'm told by a high level bureaucrat in the Treasury Department that the DPKR's 20s are so good the U.S. should actually outsource printing to them. If they want the $75 trillion they can just print it.

If they want to cut costs they could just make up a $1.0Bn note and print 75 of them. They could even sell reproduction $1.0Bn notes.

Orlanth wrote:Seventy five teradollars. $75,000,000,000,000. Does that kind of money exist?

That was Mike Tyson's purse for his last fight but he pissed it all away and now he's bankrupt.

olympia wrote:North Korea makes the best counterfeit $20 in the world. I'm told by a high level bureaucrat in the Treasury Department that the DPKR's 20s are so good the U.S. should actually outsource printing to them. If they want the $75 trillion they can just print it.

LOL True-dat.

agnosto wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Yes, that grants them less attention. The more people in the loop the higher the profile.

I fail to see your point here; if formal, diplomatic ties were ever established, the Norks would be receiving even more attention. No, they just want someone in the international community to take them seriously and if they were closer to the US they wouldn't be the ugly cousin so much anymore.

The point is North Korea wants the US to stop making an issue of them. North Korea is here to stay, China is seeing to that, everything else is gravy.
The idea is that once diplomatic relations are formally opened they can ignore each other. Just like US relations with say (taken at random) Tanzania. North Korea is not on the wordl map per se, its a peripheral state which is how it intends to stay.
The fact that there are no relations means they cannot ignore each other, follow the logic to see who it works.

agnosto wrote:N.Korea is always demanding something from some country or other and they are inevitably turned down; heck, a few months ago they were demanding new fighter jets from China. It's similar to the boy that cried wolf. Frankly, I believe the international community just looks at N.Korea as the insane hermit that lives down the street; he chases the kids off his lawn and does a lot of fist shaking but don't take him too seriously.

Dont ask dont get. Some of the requests are met, and you should be a bit fairer in your analysis, they make rdemansds of this US at the moment, for ther reasons given in my last post. Many of the other requests made are perfectly reasonable, developed nations are often willing to hand over some resources to an underdevelopeed nation when ask. Africa asks all the tim, as does South America, a few million here and there, requests are made of G7 and some G20 nartions primarily. Switzerland is a good choice to go cap in hand to as is Sweden.
What North Korea is doing is not unreasonable or exceptional, so dont make it out that it is or read too much into propoganda that implies it as such.
The demand for a crass payment from the US is an exception rather than the rule and is made for a completely different motive.

agnosto wrote:

Orlanth wrote:This adds to the ideology that the UN is a US lapdog, the Iraq war highlights this point, and the obstacles to any resolution against Israel.

That's opinion; you well know that the U.N. often goes against the wishes of the U.S. There is definitely no roughshod happening in the security council, for example.

You completely fail to understand its not a personal opinion, I am reiterating a practiced ideology (point in bold). You dont have me to convince, the message is to the room and comes from North Korea to her apologists.

agnosto wrote:
If China were to turn their back on the Norks, they would be losing about 70% of their trade. For a country that is continually starved (no pun intended) for hard currency that's not a great way to go. Israel is not a great comparison as they are already a comparatively rich country with trade ties to most of the world whereas N.Korea has limited diplomatic ties and even more limited trade ties. In fact, when the south broke their trade ties with them last month, they lost their second biggest trade partner. When the Russians pulled back from N. Korea, they really felt it; in fact it is a major reason their economy tanked even more.

You use the word Nork alot, it helps on serious political threads not to overuse a derogatory term, you might appear a little bigoted if you dont. I dont think you are, but just to be safe it might be an iodea to call them North Koreans every now and then.
Comparisons to Israel are valid, without continual US funding they cannot afford their own military budget let alone the rest of their economy. Israel is perhaps the most overbudgeted country on earth. The difference is cash flow remains good and the US will not stop the cheques from flowing. Israel is also different in that it can stand on its own two feet if needs be, it has way too much high level infrastructure for a country of its size, but is very efficient and competent in terms of logistical management. Israel without US support would be an economic nightmare, but would be able to default on any debts with impunity because its strong internally and a tough nut to crack.

agnosto wrote:
Thanks for the intelligent conversation by the way.

You are welcome.

We're not the ones threatening war every ten minutes and demanding billions.

We're not the ones sinking South Korean ships.

Its like saying grandma is meddling when doesn't let the purse snatcher steal her purse.

We're not the ones threatening war every ten minutes
ja ja ja a ja ja ja ja

Orlanth wrote:

agnosto wrote:
As to being after less attention; they have always been trying to negotiate direct diplomatic ties with the U.S.

Yes, that grants them less attention. The more people in the loop the higher the profile.

agnosto wrote:
I don't know how demanding more money than actually exists on the planet will do anything except make everyone laugh at them more than they already do.

Only fools laugh, you are looking at this with an overly western mindset. You are also mistaken if you think the Koreans or Chinese care if you laugh. North Korea sets its own standard for truth, its a steady political standpoint for a totalitarian regime. Externally its better to say 'you must pay that', rather that 'this is how much you are costing us'. The latter is the same as the former, but the latter can be easily ignored internally and externally the former is also more assertive and apportions blame once payment is denied. North Korea doesnt expect a cent from the US, thats not the point of the demand. Anyone who thinks the North Koreans made this startment with any expectation to be paid anything is mistaken.
Also look at the rtiming. Obama has been crowing 'compensation' regarding the Gulf oil spill. So its an excellent time to make similar sounding demands.

agnosto wrote:
All sanctions have been U.N. approved so I fail to see how the US could be singled out as an agressor...

This adds to the ideology that the UN is a US lapdog, the Iraq war highlights this point, and the obstacles to any resolution against Israel.

agnosto wrote:
The thing with N. Korea is that they only exist at the sufferance of China and if China ever withdraws that support, they'll collapse quickly.

This is true, but could also be said for a number of regimes across the world. Israel would survive without US help now, but for much of its time it wouldnt. The concept of a client state is not unique to North Korea, this is one reason why this avenue is not approached. It would be too easily debunked as gross hypocrasy.

agnosto wrote:
China won't disavow them; however, because the refugee problem of a failed Nork state would be horrendous.

Not at all, China wouldnt even notice even if all 24 million North Koreans fled across the border. China wont back down on ideological grounds and on the grounds of power politics. A united Korea would be an anti-chinese Korea as the South Korean culture would dominate.

And you are looking at this in an overly European mindset. I too want a bazillion dollars. And Im sure I (as an American) can give a gak less what they want, and Im sure its the same way for them. Of course we dont care what the North Koreans want, its all a pony and lights show. They are just trying to make the word know they still matter.

Orlanth wrote:The point is North Korea wants the US to stop making an issue of them. North Korea is here to stay, China is seeing to that, everything else is gravy. The idea is that once diplomatic relations are formally opened they can ignore each other. Just like US relations with say (taken at random) Tanzania. North Korea is not on the wordl map per se, its a peripheral state which is how it intends to stay. The fact that there are no relations means they cannot ignore each other, follow the logic to see who it works.

Stop making an issue? A nice way to do that would be to adhere to international agreements and stop insane posturing and sabre rattling. Play nice and the big kids will give you a treat.

Tanzania's not a good example as the US enjoys very strong relations with the government of Tanzania. But I get your point; I don't agree, but I understand your point.

Orlanth wrote:Dont ask dont get. Some of the requests are met, and you should be a bit fairer in your analysis, they make rdemansds of this US at the moment, for ther reasons given in my last post. Many of the other requests made are perfectly reasonable, developed nations are often willing to hand over some resources to an underdevelopeed nation when ask. Africa asks all the tim, as does South America, a few million here and there, requests are made of G7 and some G20 nartions primarily. Switzerland is a good choice to go cap in hand to as is Sweden.
What North Korea is doing is not unreasonable or exceptional, so dont make it out that it is or read too much into propoganda that implies it as such.
The demand for a crass payment from the US is an exception rather than the rule and is made for a completely different motive

The difference is the tone. Cap in hand is one thing but outright demands of resources or funding.... How would you feel if your (insert relative or friend) came to you and said, "If you don't give me $XXX, I'm going to burn your house down." Which is very similar to how N. Korea often words their demands.... Big difference between "request" and "demand". N. Korea has repeatedly made demands of its neighbors and the international community; I hardly think it is an exception. "Don't take the Chonan sinking to the UN or there will be war!" When I was in Korea, the N. Koreans repeatedly threatened to turn Seoul into a "Lake of fire".

Orlanth wrote:You completely fail to understand its not a personal opinion, I am reiterating a practiced ideology (point in bold). You dont have me to convince, the message is to the room and comes from North Korea to her apologists.

Yes, I am well aware of how uninformed people perceive the US's relationship with the UN.

Orlanth wrote:You use the word Nork alot, it helps on serious political threads not to overuse a derogatory term, you might appear a little bigoted if you dont. I dont think you are, but just to be safe it might be an iodea to call them North Koreans every now and then.
Comparisons to Israel are valid, without continual US funding they cannot afford their own military budget let alone the rest of their economy. Israel is perhaps the most overbudgeted country on earth. The difference is cash flow remains good and the US will not stop the cheques from flowing. Israel is also different in that it can stand on its own two feet if needs be, it has way too much high level infrastructure for a country of its size, but is very efficient and competent in terms of logistical management. Israel without US support would be an economic nightmare, but would be able to default on any debts with impunity because its strong internally and a tough nut to crack.

Yep. I use Nork; I had family serve in the war that resulted from their invasion of the South and I lived in South Korea for 4 years. I admit that I have an active dislike of the ruling party and their general existance. I love the Korean people, I hate the ugly, hillbilly cousins to the North; if that makes me evil, I'm unappologetic. I will; however, refrain if it insults your sensibilities.

Israel's GDP for 2008 was $202 Billion with about $3 Billion in US aid... Memo of understanding between US and Israel in 2007 set a ten-year aid package at $30Billion.

Now let's look at N. Korea. Since 1996, the US has sent over 2.2 million metric tons of food aid to N. Korea worth approximately $800 million and the US only constituted 17% of foreign food aid to N. Korea with China, Japan and South Korea comprising the majority of the rest. There are strongly supported allegations that N. Korea is diverting a large portion of this aid and reselling it on the international black market.

The countries listed above, along with the US also donate energy, money, etc. Here's an interesting read for you: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R40095.pdf

The point here is that $3billion in cash to Israel is a small % of their GDP versus the huge amount the N. Koreans receive. If the U.S. were to pull aid from Israel, it would hurt; if the world stopped helping N. Korea.... I think you can guess.

edit: spelling.

Hey guys, I have a question. What the feth is the point of even attempting to be fair and rational towards NORTH fething KOREA. Its a gak HOLE. NO ONE WOULD BAT AN EYELASH IF THEY CEASED EXISTING TOMORROW.


And stop pandering to China for the love of god. Its China. WHO CARES IF THEY ARE UPSET. They are a paper tiger.

My god, why hasn't anyone realised this? YOU ARE SO COMPLETELY RIGHT!! go you.

endless wrote:My god, why hasn't anyone realised this? YOU ARE SO COMPLETELY RIGHT!! go you.

ja ja ja

I agree, NK citizens eat grass, think their leader is a god, and don't know what a refridgerator is. This isn't by choice, its by Kim's rule.

Also, if we did pay him he would probably have the largest play ever, using schoolgirls for every part.

Sorry, but I think you're numbers are "wong".

That amount of money doesn't even exist. That's more money than you could possibly imagine. America has less than 5 trillion in all of out assets combined. Impossible.That's...75,000,000,000,000.00 Dollars.

75 BILLION is more approppriate, but still outrageous. Like they deserve anything...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ediin wrote:75 Trillion dollars. Send them Bill Gates!

And yes, Austin Powers is good, very good.

Bill Gates would laugh in their faces, then attempt to sell them Zunes. And SUCCEED! Those koreans will buy anything Shiny that makes sound.


DRAG AND DROP!

KingCracker wrote:
And you are looking at this in an overly European mindset. I too want a bazillion dollars. And Im sure I (as an American) can give a gak less what they want, and Im sure its the same way for them. Of course we dont care what the North Koreans want, its all a pony and lights show. They are just trying to make the word know they still matter.

Actually I am looking at this from as close to as an oriental communist point of view as I can. This is needed to actually understand what they are trying.

agnosto wrote:
Stop making an issue? A nice way to do that would be to adhere to international agreements and stop insane posturing and sabre rattling. Play nice and the big kids will give you a treat.

International agreements are largely stacked against North Korea, Bush wanted a piece of them and would have were it not for China. The US policy direction is hard to refocus even with a change of president.

agnosto wrote:The difference is the tone. Cap in hand is one thing but outright demands of resources or funding.... How would you feel if your (insert relative or friend) came to you and said, "If you don't give me $XXX, I'm going to burn your house down." Which is very similar to how N. Korea often words their demands.... Big difference between "request" and "demand". N. Korea has repeatedly made demands of its neighbors and the international community; I hardly think it is an exception. "Don't take the Chonan sinking to the UN or there will be war!" When I was in Korea, the N. Koreans repeatedly threatened to turn Seoul into a "Lake of fire".

You should read Bush's rhetoric in the past. North Koreans also fear the bogeyman.

agnosto wrote:The point here is that $3billion in cash to Israel is a small % of their GDP versus the huge amount the N. Koreans receive. If the U.S. were to pull aid from Israel, it would hurt; if the world stopped helping N. Korea.... I think you can guess.

I can guess but it wont be the dictator who suffers.

Orlanth wrote:
Not at all, China wouldnt even notice even if all 24 million North Koreans fled across the border.

Given the likely destinations of any refugees (Jilin, Liaoning, and Heliojiang) it seems like China would be quite concerned about any potential refugees. All of those provinces have seen significant growth of late, and play important roles with respect to Chinese agriculture.

Orlanth wrote:
China wont back down on ideological grounds and on the grounds of power politics.

China has distanced itself from North Korea, both ideologically and in terms of power. Note that they have, recently, begun supporting sanctions against Pyongyang.

Orlanth wrote:
A united Korea would be an anti-chinese Korea as the South Korean culture would dominate.

No, that's not necessarily true. Its rare for one culture to dominate the other, and so it can not be declared with certainty that the South would overshadow the North in the course of integration. Particularly given the fact that China would have a significant role in any such process.

That said, the worst case scenario for China involves a united Korea that favors the US. Since North Korea is only a minor problem at the moment, it is unlikely that China would favor the risk of integration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
And stop pandering to China for the love of god. Its China. WHO CARES IF THEY ARE UPSET. They are a paper tiger.

So, China has a long history of ending military or political operations once challenged by a significant opponent?

Honestly, Im curious how the NK are going to act when Kim Jhong Ill (is that right?) dies. I know itll happen in my life time (unless those damn hippies are right and 2012 we all die) Will they just continue with this weird ass life they live, or will someone step up and say "Ok now that this is all over, lets try becoming a REAL country for once"

There is some dissent within the North Korean regime, but the Party ideology is nearly universal amongst all likely successors. The transfer of power will be difficult, largely because Kim Jong-Il has not named a successor as his father did, but I doubt it will bring about revolutionary change.

The best outcome for the North Korean people is likely to be a contested succession in which Kim Jong-Il's two legitimate sons vie for power.

endless wrote:My god, why hasn't anyone realised this? YOU ARE SO COMPLETELY RIGHT!! go you.

Im sorry, were you under the impression I give a feth what you think?

Orlanth wrote:Seventy five teradollars. $75,000,000,000,000. Does that kind of money exist?

It's about five times the GDP of the US. So, ummm, no - there is not that much cash on the Earth.

Unless it's Zimbabwe dollars. In which case it's about the cost of a coca-cola.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:I have to third the Austin powers comments. That is the first thing I thought of when I read that blurb.

And I pictured the slow responsive laughter too. Mwaha.......Mwahaha......MWahahahaha........MWahahahahahahahah........Mwahahahahahahahahahahaha

GG

I thought of Civilisation, when you've completely owned some crappy power and have tanks surrounding their one city defended by a pikeman and they send a demand for a thousand gold and the tecnology of monarchy. N Korea is basically an AI bug, or some guy in Finland playing for lols.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:Seriously, China shuts down the pipeline and NK goes dark. NK done in 24 hours.

That's a composite image of the world each shot taken at night. See how S Korea looks like an island, because N Korea is already dark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:If they want to cut costs they could just make up a $1.0Bn note and print 75 of them. They could even sell reproduction $1.0Bn notes.

They'd have to print 75 thousand of those billion dollar notes. It's a whole lot of cash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Sorry, but I think you're numbers are "wong".

That amount of money doesn't even exist. That's more money than you could possibly imagine. America has less than 5 trillion in all of out assets combined. Impossible.That's...75,000,000,000,000.00 Dollars.

75 BILLION is more approppriate, but still outrageous. Like they deserve anything...

The number's got a 'logic' behind it. Assuming (somehow) that the US was the aggressor in the war, then looking at the state of the North Korea after the war and the economic decline in that time, and assuming (somehow) that was the result of the US whooping them (as opposed to being the result of a disfunctional state run economy) then it's about the total lost value of the N Korean economy compared to functional economy like S Korea.

It's just those (somehow) moments. And well, even if they were right, no-one's paying anyone $75 trillion. That's bigger than Germany reparations to the Allies after WWI, and we all know how that turned out.

Japan looks pretty awesome on that map.

Ilike how there's just two tiny dots in the middle of OZ.

Apparently the Nile is abundant in Floodlights, and Mongolia (or Eastern Russia, hard to tell) is a happening place.

endless wrote:My god, why hasn't anyone realised this? YOU ARE SO COMPLETELY RIGHT!! go you.

Good call mate, good call.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Apparently the Nile is abundant in Floodlights,

Something like 80% of Egypt's 77 million people live on the Nile. Geographically, its a really interesting country.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
and Mongolia (or Eastern Russia, hard to tell) is a happening place.

Its mostly China, but also Vladivostok and the various cities around Ulan Bator.

Does America even cost $75 trillion in total?


I wonder if NK even think they'll get the money, I mean they must know it's a stupid idea.

Lord-Loss wrote:Does America even cost $75 trillion in total?


I wonder if NK even think they'll get the money, I mean they must know it's a stupid idea.

the world isn't even worth that much

youbedead wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Does America even cost $75 trillion in total?


I wonder if NK even think they'll get the money, I mean they must know it's a stupid idea.

the world isn't even worth that much

Who has the idea they expect to be paid. Come on guys you have to think further than that.

youbedead wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:Does America even cost $75 trillion in total?


I wonder if NK even think they'll get the money, I mean they must know it's a stupid idea.

the world isn't even worth that much

QFT. You could buy the continent of africa for less than a quarter of that. Oh, but don't tell the chi-rese. I've heard they're after that ball of crap.

Frazzled wrote:Its only fair. If we had let them conquer South Korea everything would be like paradise.

What exactly is keep us from just pushing the red button on these guys again? We are at war after all.

Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Fateweaver wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its only fair. If we had let them conquer South Korea everything would be like paradise.

What exactly is keep us from just pushing the red button on these guys again? We are at war after all.

Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Yeah,seriously. I hate to admit it, but sometimes I wish nice people didn't exist. Why can't we just blow up whatever we please? Because of the damn Humanitarians. Because people care too much about other people. Let 'em burn in the fires of damnation for all I care.

Ancient Rome must have been nice place. "hey caesar!" "yesh?" "This dude in that town over there stole my TV, can we burn the town to the ground?" "Oya, lets pwn dem" "Sweeeet"

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its only fair. If we had let them conquer South Korea everything would be like paradise.

What exactly is keep us from just pushing the red button on these guys again? We are at war after all.

Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Yeah,seriously. I hate to admit it, but sometimes I wish nice people didn't exist. Why can't we just blow up whatever we please? Because of the damn Humanitarians. Because people care too much about other people. Let 'em burn in the fires of damnation for all I care.

Ancient Rome must have been nice place. "hey caesar!" "yesh?" "This dude in that town over there stole my TV, can we burn the town to the ground?" "Oya, lets pwn dem" "Sweeeet"

Maybe if people other than NORKS cared about NK than you'd have a point.

They've been a pain in the ass for so long..It surprises me they haven't just been eradicated by the obviously more mature south koreans.

I heard something funny on the citizenradio podcast:
"Two people,seemingly united by their love for kim-chi, torn apart by their love for communism"

Fateweaver wrote:
Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Also, people that don't want to expend monetary and human resources in order to satisfy the compensatory urges of American men from northern Minnesota, or central Texas.

War is expensive, and guarantees death on both sides. It is stupid to do to war when there is nothing to gain.

Fateweaver wrote:
Maybe if people other than NORKS cared about NK than you'd have a point.

There are two really large nations that border North Korea that take an active interest in its existence. These nations are named China, and Russia, they complicate matters considerably. Though they are beginning to align their perspective with ours.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
They've been a pain in the ass for so long..It surprises me they haven't just been eradicated by the obviously more mature south koreans.

So we're using maturity as a qualitative method for judging states?

American political polemic has gotten really, really bad.

dogma wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:
Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Also, people that don't want to expend monetary and human resources in order to satisfy the compensatory urges of American men from northern Minnesota, or central Texas.

War is expensive, and guarantees death on both sides. It is stupid to do to war when there is nothing to gain.

Fateweaver wrote:
Maybe if people other than NORKS cared about NK than you'd have a point.

There are two really large nations that border North Korea that take an active interest in its existence. These nations are named China, and Russia, they complicate matters considerably. Though they are beginning to align their perspective with ours.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
They've been a pain in the ass for so long..It surprises me they haven't just been eradicated by the obviously more mature south koreans.

So we're using maturity as a qualitative method for judging states?

American political polemic has gotten really, really bad.

Launching an ICBM might cost what? A few hundred million? Seems cheap to me.

YEESSSH^

You've got the right idea,fateweaver!

Fateweaver wrote:
Launching an ICBM might cost what? A few hundred million? Seems cheap to me.

30-40 billion when considering basic replacement value. Far more when considering the fact that we no longer maintain the production facilities for such weapons.

More importantly, that ICBM (or, more likely, multiple ICBMs) will not eliminate everything in North Korea. We would not be able to guarantee that their ability to bombard the South would be eliminated. We would not be able to gurantee that their nuclear arsenal would be eliminated. We would create a massive refugee problem that would seriously irk the Chinese and the Russians. We would create a significant fallout zone which would anger the Japanese and the South Koreans (assuming they were above ground after the bombardment).

All of these things cost money, lives, or clout and fail to improve the US position in any noticeable way. There is literally no incentive for us to strike the North until they take significant military action.

dogma wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:
Launching an ICBM might cost what? A few hundred million? Seems cheap to me.

30-40 billion when considering basic replacement value. Far more when considering the fact that we no longer maintain the production facilities for such weapons.

More importantly, that ICBM (or, more likely, multiple ICBMs) will not eliminate everything in North Korea. We would not be able to guarantee that their ability to bombard the South would be eliminated. We would not be able to gurantee that their nuclear arsenal would be eliminated. We would create a massive refugee problem that would seriously irk the Chinese, and a significant fallout zone which would anger the Japanese and the South Koreans (assuming they were above ground after the bombardment).

All of these things cost money and lives, and fail to improve the US position in any noticeable way. There is literally no incentive for us to strike the North until they take significant military action.

And even then our overlord, who postures more than a puppet on a string, will try to blame Bush for NKorea becoming what it did and striking us with significant military action.

Yeah, best not to piss off the Chinese. It's not wise to piss off a country who could bankrupt us tomorrow with little we could do about it.

Fateweaver wrote:
And even then our overlord, who postures more than a puppet on a string, will try to blame Bush for NKorea becoming what it did and striking us with significant military action.

All politicians posture, its pretty much the core of their job. You don't think that "Mission Accomplished" stuff was substantive, do you?

Fateweaver wrote:
Yeah, best not to piss off the Chinese. It's not wise to piss off a country who could bankrupt us tomorrow with little we could do about it.

Doing so would crush their economy. We have a nice little detente at the moment.

Yeah, we are great buddies with China. We scratch their backs, they stab us in ours. I wish I had real life friends like that.

Sorry but BO is all talk and no substance. Threaten BP and then spends most of the time playing golf. Threatens Nkorea but will most likely play more golf and talk down to any military general who wants to do something about it.

I think BO has used his 9 iron more than he has his ballpoint pen.

The US State should write Kim Y(J)ong a cheque for the entire amount.

And use Switzerlands Bank account details....

Fateweaver wrote:Yeah, we are great buddies with China. We scratch their backs, they stab us in ours. I wish I had real life friends like that.

Detente has nothing to do with friendship, its about the relaxation of hostility.

And where is this backstabbing going on? In what way has China betrayed the US?

Fateweaver wrote:
Sorry but BO is all talk and no substance. Threaten BP and then spends most of the time playing golf.

Wait, did you not hear about the 20 billion dollar fund BP created through negotiations with the White House?

I mean, I understand and agree with the critique regarding a poorly coordinated disaster response, but to say that the Obama Administration hasn't done anything to BP is bonkers.

Fateweaver wrote:
Threatens Nkorea but will most likely play more golf...

He renewed US economic sanctions against North Korea, and is actively working to develop a comprehensive package of similar measures through the United Nations. He even got Russia to agree to the latter, and managed to keep China from voicing any opposition; though they did not offer explicit support.

Fateweaver wrote:
...and talk down to any military general who wants to do something about it.

He would be right to do so; invading North Korea, or even striking them militarily, would be exceptionally stupid. Its the sort of thing that functions as litmus test for competence in international affairs.

Fateweaver wrote:
I think BO has used his 9 iron more than he has his ballpoint pen.

That seems unlikely, President's sign quite a few things on a daily basis.

Yea really, the North Koreans wouldnt be worth bombing with firecrackers, let alone expensive military equipment. To put it in perspective, that would be like the average person, taking out a $100k bank loan, to get rid of the ants that invade their house in the summer. Do you do anything about those ants? Sure maybe squish some, or lay a few poison traps, but then you just ignore them after that.
Thats how it is with North Korea. Anything short of ignoring them is over kill

I live in Honolulu. Supposedly they have a few nukes that can reach us or Japan. I vote Japan. I like living, and hate anime. And we already know Japan can recover from WMDs. Why trust another country without Japan's knowledge base. Come on North Korea, whats the wisest choice?

Didn't Obama say he was willing to nuke Iran and N. Korea recently?

One question though, why would we nuke the entire country if we just needed to get rid of just one guy?

Fateweaver wrote:Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

Yeah! If only those damn humanitarians were happy to kill millions of people to help some clown on the internet stroke his war penis.

I agree, the humanitarians should be willing to help stroke someone's war penis. Although, I wonder what that is.

Anywho, war against NK would almost be a joke now. You just need to watch out for fanatacism in the local popualtion and possible intervention by China. Seeing as though we have little in the way of allies in the "orient" that would be incredibly difficult.

As to the NK people, they are starved and dejected. Killing Kim and putting a puppet in place almost seems like the better choice.

halonachos wrote:Didn't Obama say he was willing to nuke Iran and N. Korea recently?

Sort of. When Obama set out the conditions in which the US would use nuclear weapons he named Iran and North Korea, among others, as exceptions to rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:
As to the NK people, they are starved and dejected. Killing Kim and putting a puppet in place almost seems like the better choice.

You're basically talking about a regime change, which would involve a full scale invasion. Imagine a much more intransigent version of Iraq, and you'll get the idea.

Maybe a velvet revolution? Bay of Pigs scenario maybe?

If we can kill Kim Jong Il then I could hope that instead of going into a rage, the NK will see that he truly wasn't a god and they would revolt. Of course, the oppossite can be true.

If we simply killed him its very likely that he would simply be replaced by the current regime. There would be a struggle for power, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything for the US.

I doubt something like the Velvet Revolution will transpire, as the degree of information control exercise by the state will not readily allow for the formation of that type of broad counter culture movement.

The Bay of Pigs invasion is hardly something to emulate.

Yeah, and its nearly impossible to guarantee that the guy we want in charge will be placed in charge. After that we don't know if he's going to stay nice or turn evil.

It really is unfortunate that there is no 100% sure method of removing him.

Fateweaver wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its only fair. If we had let them conquer South Korea everything would be like paradise.

What exactly is keep us from just pushing the red button on these guys again? We are at war after all.

Humanitarians and libertarians and anyone else who is all touchy feely, huggy huggy with the rest of the world.

So you finally recognise that GW Bush was under control of the left wing cabal.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:And we already know Japan can recover from WMDs.

Clearly, their previous experience grants them the Feel No Pain special rule.

halonachos wrote:I agree, the humanitarians should be willing to help stroke someone's war penis. Although, I wonder what that is.

Anywho, war against NK would almost be a joke now. You just need to watch out for fanatacism in the local popualtion and possible intervention by China. Seeing as though we have little in the way of allies in the "orient" that would be incredibly difficult.

The capabilities of North Korea's army and negligible. Their troops are poorly fed and supplied with gear that is decades old and in a terrible state of repair.

The issue would be the ability of North Korea to fire rockets and artillery into Seoul, and the subsequent refugee crisis among the North Koreans. Despite some of the nonsense posted in this thread, it is the refugee crisis that China is primarily worried about, and it is something anyone considering invasion would have to worry about. There's around 25 million North Koreans and with their state planned system it's collapse would see almost all of them needing aid immediately.

As to the NK people, they are starved and dejected. Killing Kim and putting a puppet in place almost seems like the better choice.

If we could be confident that killing Kim would allow for a quick replacement who'd be able to exert authority from day one, and be a more stable negotiating partner. Problem is that's extremely unlikely.

Outside of Tom Clancy novels overt military action rarely makes things more stable. The ugly truth is that best solution available is to contain, ignore the crazy stuff like the demand for 75 trillion, and wait and hope things get better, remaining ready for military action if it becomes necessary. It isn't as gratifying as the Waaargh! option the internet loves, but the real world just isn't that gratifying.

olympia wrote:North Korea makes the best counterfeit $20 in the world. I'm told by a high level bureaucrat in the Treasury Department that the DPKR's 20s are so good the U.S. should actually outsource printing to them. If they want the $75 trillion they can just print it.

You would waste the entire rainforest to get the paper needed, which is several trillion bills alone

Samus_aran115 wrote:You would waste the entire rainforest to get the paper needed, which is several trillion bills alone

US cash is printed on cotton, funnily enough. But yeah, there’s a point where cash just stops making sense.

Yeah, americans would love to be able to ignore North Korea. However, being an Alaskan, I live within range of an ICBM that can carry a nuclear payload if launched from N.Korea. They have not only the technology to produce nuclear weapons, but the crazy desire to use them as a threat to procure media and attention. Tanzania doesn't want to use nukes as a means to negotiate. There's a little bit of a difference there.

We do admittedly tend to ignore countries that are not nuclear-capable. Those countries are a little more peaceful in their negotiations.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Yeah, americans would love to be able to ignore North Korea. However, being an Alaskan, I live within range of an ICBM that can carry a nuclear payload if launched from N.Korea.

It’s not really a factor. If N Korea decided to commit suicide and launch a nuke (which given the quality of their rockets and guidance systems is unlikely to land on target) then Japan should be very worried. The odds of getting an accurate missile launched at Alaska, let alone the odds of N Korea bothering to do so, is really remote.

But no-one should be as worried as the people of Seoul, and that’s got nothing to do with nukes.

They have not only the technology to produce nuclear weapons, but the crazy desire to use them as a threat to procure media and attention. Tanzania doesn't want to use nukes as a means to negotiate. There's a little bit of a difference there.

N Korea needs foreign aid to remain a functioning country. There’s a practical limit to the amount of aid that will be provided through private charity, at some point you need government to step in, particularly when it isn’t just food that’s needed but large scale projects like power generation. So N Korea plays this silly game to try and generate more aid. The ego boost of world attention is also part of it, but by and large it’s a case of keeping their dysfunctional system going by holding Seoul and their own people to ransom.

We do admittedly tend to ignore countries that are not nuclear-capable. Those countries are a little more peaceful in their negotiations.

The big thing to remember is that negotiations between countries really have very little to do with avoiding war or nuclear strikes or any of that. It has everything to do with trade and the benefits to trade of being a significant world power. In this case, you have a crackpot nation surrounded by three of your biggest trading partners – Japan, China and South Korea.

It’s in your best interests to take an active role in keeping the problem in check.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
We do admittedly tend to ignore countries that are not nuclear-capable. Those countries are a little more peaceful in their negotiations.

Really?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
We do admittedly tend to ignore countries that are not nuclear-capable. Those countries are a little more peaceful in their negotiations.

That's not really true. Just look at Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Libya, and Sudan.

I say we pay them about $1.50. After all, N. Korea owes us all money for doctor bills for laughing so hard at their country.

Just about breaks even, I think.

Japan would be screwed. Especially because Japan is standing room only.

sebster wrote:

halonachos wrote:As to the NK people, they are starved and dejected. Killing Kim and putting a puppet in place almost seems like the better choice.

If we could be confident that killing Kim would allow for a quick replacement who'd be able to exert authority from day one, and be a more stable negotiating partner. Problem is that's extremely unlikely.

Didn't I already say that?

halonachos wrote:Didn't I already say that?

So you did, I must have missed that earlier. Apologies.

But if you recognised how impractical assassination was, why did you make suggestion in the first place?

darn lag

stupid lag

I thought it would be cool and then dogma watered and pruned my tree of doubt about the idea.

Jeeze, why can't stuff be as simple as the movies sometimes.

halonachos wrote:I thought it would be cool and then dogma watered and pruned my tree of doubt about the idea.

Jeeze, why can't stuff be as simple as the movies sometimes.

Fair enough then. Credit to you for keeping an open mind and being willing to reconsider your original argument.

So Michael Douglas walks into a convenience store, right, and the Korean guy won't give him change for a dollar to use the phone. He says eighty-fie cent, Mike says, "You don't have 'vees' in your country?"
So he destroys the store with a baseball bat, pays 50 cents for the coke and leaves.

I love that movie. Now what have we all learned?

Koreans should be killed and you should buy coke for fiti-cent?

What the hell? He didn't kill him. You're crazy... but yes, the point was that the Korean thought the Coke was worth eighty-fie cent, whereas the American who thought he was terribly important on account of how much money his country had given the other, thought it was worth only fifty (plus it didn't give him enough change to use the phone to stalk his ex-wife).

Arctik_Firangi wrote:What the hell? He didn't kill him. You're crazy... but yes, the point was that the Korean thought the Coke was worth eighty-fie cent, whereas the American who thought he was terribly important on account of how much money his country had given the other, thought it was worth only fifty (plus it didn't give him enough change to use the phone to stalk his ex-wife).

Sorry,didn't see it.

Albatross wrote:$75 Trillion? You could BUY the whole country, lock stock and barrel, for a fraction of that amount.

Yes, top Korean scientists have calculated roughly how much money there is in the world, and now they`re asking for it. Good job, I say

Arctik_Firangi wrote:So Michael Douglas walks into a convenience store, right, and the Korean guy won't give him change for a dollar to use the phone. He says eighty-fie cent, Mike says, "You don't have 'vees' in your country?"
So he destroys the store with a baseball bat, pays 50 cents for the coke and leaves.

I love that movie. Now what have we all learned?

Brilliant movie...it's called "Falling Down" in case anyone is interested.

GG