Prospective Player List

1hadhq -- ??? -- ???
Admiral-Bell --- Imperial Guard --- ???
BrotherStynier --- Chaos Space Marines --- Night Lords
Emperors Faithful --- Imperial Guard --- Vostroyans
Erasoketa --- Space Marines --- Black Templars
Deff Dread red Edition --- Imperial Guard --- Elysians
focusedfire --- ??? --- ???
JohnHwangDD --- Tyranids --- Grendel
Inquistor_Syphonious --- Imperial Guard --- Valhallans
Manchu --- Eldar --- Ulthwe
Nightwatch --- Orks --- Freebooterz
Orkeosaurus --- Space Marines --- Rainbow Warrior
Shaman --- Space Marines --- Ultramarines
the_ferret --- Orks --- ???
Thor --- ??? --- ???
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I expect this post will be edited quite a few times, so I am not bothering with the fanciest of formatting or even creating a complete ruleset here.

The rules presented in this post (note: not thread) are FINAL for Game Two--unless they are demonstrated to be extremely broken in some way.

First up: The Board size will comprise worlds in the amount of one third the number of players rounded down with a minimum of six worlds. The Board is linear, in that movement from the last world to the first or vice versa is generally not allowed.

Let's remember that, generally speaking, factions must move to reinforce and may not reinforce on the same turn as attacking.

Next: Rules for the factions that will definitely make it into Game Two.

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Chaos Space Marines
A 2 T 2 M 1/A R 1* Start 10 Max 15
Legions of the Warp: The predations of Chaos Space Marine warbands are aided both by the denizens and the deceptions of the Immaterium.
Chaos Space Marine factions may attack on the same turn that they move, before or after moving. They may only reinforce while moving before an attack. Chaos
Space Marine factions treat the Board as circular, i.e., they may move between the first and last Worlds.

Eldar
A 1x2 T 1x2 M 1*/A R 1 Start 10 Max 10
Masters of the Webway: The enigmatic Eldar slip in and out of their Webway portals, attacking where and whenever they are least expected.
Eldar factions may move from their current World to any other World. They may attack once before moving and once after moving. They may never attack
on the same World twice in one turn.

Imperial Guard
A 3 T 3 M 1 R 3 Start 10 Max 20
Hammer of the Emperor: The sprawling Imperial Guard mobilizes fire power unmatched throughout the Emperor's far-flung domains.
Imperial Guard factions may neither move nor attack on a turn that they reinforce.

Orks
A 1/2 T 1/2 M 2/A R 2 Start 10 Max 20
WAAAAAAGH!: Ork violence gains momentum in its belligerent charge across the stars, growing more savage wherever Greenskins gather.
Ork factions may move up to two space per turn and can attack on the same turn as moving, either before or after moving. When two or more Ork
factions are on the same world, treat each as A 2 T 2.

Space Marines
A 3 T 1 M 2/A R 1 Start 10 Max 10
Codex Astartes: The teachings of Guilliman have honed the Space Marines into a perfect precision strike force.
Space Marine factions may move up to two spaces per turn. They may attack on the same turn as moving but only after moving. They may not move
then attack then move again, however.

Tyranids
A 2 T 1/2 M 1 R n/a Start 15 Max 25
The Great Devourer: Tyranids Hive Fleets tear mercilessly through the galaxy, assimilating the biomass of their victims into themselves.
Tyranid factions reinforce on the same turn as attacking. Each turn, they may inflict either two wounds on one target, reinforcing by one, or one wound on
two targets, reinforcing by two. There may only be one Tyranid faction for every three other factions.
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And now, rules for factions that may or may not be included in the next game. (More will be added as I think of them, perhaps.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tau Empire
A 1/2 T 1/2 M 1 or 1/A R 1/2 Start 10 Max 15
For the Greater Good: Able to coordinate complex military actions with versatility, the Tau pose a steadily growing threat to any who oppose their Greater Good.
All Tau factions start on the same World. Tau factions may attack on the same turn as moving, either before or after moving, as A 1 T 1. If they attack without moving, they are
treated as A 2 T 2. If a Tau faction moves without attacking to a World where another Tau faction is already present the moving faction may reinforce by two rather than one.

Sisters of Battle
A 2 T 2/1 M 1 R 2 Start 10 Max 15
Acts of Faith: Adepta Sororitas are an inspiring witness to the power of faith in the God-Emperor, leading Humanity's crusades at their bloody spearpoints.
Whenever Sisters of Battle factions are below their starting wounds or are present on the same World as either Imperial Guard or Space Marine factions, they are treated as
A 2 T 1 rather than A 2 T 2. (They may not choose to remain A 2 T 2 in this case, however.)

Dark Eldar
A 2 T 1 M 1*/A R 1 Start 10 Max 10
The Thirst of Commorragh: Driven by their insatiable appetite for souls, Dark Eldar slavers strike out from the Webway to sow terror among the livestock races.
Dark Eldar factions may move from their current World to any other World. They may move and reinforce on the same turn as attacking, but only after attacking. They may not
otherwise reinforce nor may they move and then attack on the same turn.
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Finally, as to what this thread is for: I would like for people to discuss these rules and suggest changes based on experience with Game One--or, for anyone who hasn't been playing in Game One, based on being a wargamer! Rules proposals for Chaos Daemons or Necrons are also welcome. MOST IMPORTANTLY, however, please use this thread to start plotting out which faction you will play in the context of other players' choices. Some of this will have to be done via PM, for the sake of creating secret alliances, but other parts of it are better done in the open . . . to intimidate others . . . and, of course, to throw people off your real game, right? This pre-game stage is very nearly a game in and of itself and I hope that people have fun doing it because I think it should be a very important part of StratS.

Game Two will begin when there are a suitable number (at least ten but I hope for around fifteen or even more) people ready to play. Note that this does not mean we must all wait until the end of Game One to begin Game Two. So please post here if you are interested in eventually joining Game Two. And please do spread the word about StratS. I would really like to see more people playing this because as more people that try it there's a good chance that more problems with existing rules and opportunities for better and more fun rules will be revealed. The more minds, the merrier!

I'll gladly play Nids.

That may be more your speed . . . er, should I say strength?

Linear is going to make it a completely different game. I like it.

I think to prevent the madness of last game you should post all the possible actions for each faction. If I was smarter I would but well I'm not.

I also think that orks (Tau/Sisters if in the game) are gonna be a huge target if people think rather then use in -universe bias. The way they support each other is a huge threat to everyone who doesn't have the same ability.

Also so Chaos have been judged Op? Thats probably accurate, all of us are still above starting wounds.

Eldar will actually have mobility, with linear.

Also thanks for all the hard work. I think you've made something quite cool.

Just my thoughts

EDIT Im interested in Game 2. Can I stake my claim already? If so I choose Ultramarines.

I'll be back with the guard.

@Manchu: Nids are easily the strongest all-round. No weakness in the army design whatsoever.

@Shaman: Linear makes no real difference as long as Eldar intend to "win" rather than just drawing it out - Eldar still need to get stuck in to fight, and that means they're meat.

I'll be up for the next game, but I'll hold off on selecting a faction until I see the final list.

@Shaman: I will leave the possible actions lists to Nightwatch, if he doesn't mind, or some other enterprising individuals if he does mind. I prefer to see how someone else interprets my rules and then straightening out what I intended. This will be better to do BEFORE the game beings, I think.

I do think Chaos is OP. In this iteration, they are even more like sharks: they need to keep moving forward, always ready to attack, in order to survive. As a pack, they are still very powerful. They will also be, obviously, tied with Space Marines for second most mobile faction in Game Two--although they are mobile in quite different ways.

I also think that Eldar could be OP, if left as they were, in the early game. Yes, in a linear game they will still be very strong early game. If they coordinate to hit hard they can put big dents into the other players. Such alliances, if handled without subtlety, will likely provoke animosity. The Eldar need a deft hand but I think they are very powerful.

Sisters could be a target, sure. But they need to be supported AND to support their potential Imperial allies. Just going it alone will not work best for them, I think. But going it alone doesn't work well for anyone . . . except maybe Nids. The same is true of Tau, except they have less versatility in their prospective alliances. Both factions are okay by themselves but are best when functioning in the context of alliances, which (as I said) really should be true for almost everyone.

All in all, I think that players should think more deeply and creatively about how they work together and against each other.

You can of course claim Ultramarines--and you may swap in and out as you please until the game begins. Same goes for everyone.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Manchu: Nids are easily the strongest all-round. No weakness in the army design whatsoever.

This should be their greatest weakness. Other players, upon realizing this, should be willing to band together and pound the Nids into extinction. But, just like in 40k, petty rivalries often get in the way of dealing with the real threat. I will be limiting the number of possible Nids players, however.

focusedfire wrote:I'll be up for the next game, but I'll hold off on selecting a faction until I see the final list.

Please make some kind of choice. You are free to change your choice up until Game Two begins. Faction choices are another facet of alliance building. Being able to change them makes for some great pre-game strategy.

Shaman wrote:Also thanks for all the hard work. I think you've made something quite cool.

Thank you for the kind words. The pay-off is seeing people have fun and interact. I think of these kinds of games as a way of strengthening the Dakka community by getting people to interact more regularly. This is also why I hope the game works well and is fun--so it can draw more members together so that they can get to know each other and have fun on the site.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Manchu: Nids are easily the strongest all-round. No weakness in the army design whatsoever.

@Shaman: Linear makes no real difference as long as Eldar intend to "win" rather than just drawing it out - Eldar still need to get stuck in to fight, and that means they're meat.

I don't doubt either of those points. Now that you mention them. I was just saying that they would have greater mobility. I am chasing you in game one, if the board was linear it would be harder for me to do so.

My guesses for rules.

Perhaps a weakness for tyranids could be starvation. They have to attack to keep their wounds up? lose a wound if they don't attack one enemy that turn. In late agme people could avoid them and starve them out.

This one is totally out there.. Ah make eldar wounds 8 attack 2 (single target). They hit hard enough for people to notice but are as weak as tissue paper.

Just thoughts.. dont kill me.

Shaman wrote:Perhaps a weakness for tyranids could be starvation. They have to attack to keep their wounds up?

Factions still have to coordinate to starve the Nids. Actually, Eldar are the preeminent coordinators of starvation/raiding against Nids because they can get away from them so effectively. Their natural allies in this regard are the Space Marines. Not coincidentally, the two strongest factions in the early game are natural enemies of the strongest late game faction. So while it is tempting for them to be at each other's throats, it makes more sense for them to work together--at least that is one possibility. Tyranids make a great pawn in other factions' games BUT this is one pawn that could easily digest the whole Board if it is not managed carefully.

Complaints about the Eldar are overstated. They are not the only faction that attacks at A1 T1. They are not the only faction with Max 10. I admit, they are the only faction with both.

I think it's also important to remember that winning is what you make of it. I am not especially worried about creating a lot of rules to avoid stalemates because I think a confederation of Eldar all surviving is just as fulfilling a victory as a single Ork clan getting all the way through.

Additionally: For now, choose ONLY from those factions that will be available in Game Two.

I have another possible solution to the Eldar "problem":

Eldar
A 1x2 T 1x2 M 1*/A R 1 Start 10 Max 10
Masters of the Webway: The enigmatic Eldar slip in and out of their Webway portals, attacking where and whenever they are least expected.
Eldar factions may move from their current World to any other World. They may attack once before moving and once after moving. They may never attack
on the same World twice in one turn.

. . . instead of . . .

Eldar
A 1 T 1 M 1*/A R 1 Start 10 Max 10
Masters of the Webway: The enigmatic Eldar slip in and out of their Webway portals, attacking where and whenever they are least expected.
Eldar factions begin play off-Board and are placed on a World of their choice during Turn 1. This, and an attack, count as their entire first turn. Subsequently,
they may move, from their current World to any other World, and attack on the same turn. They may attack either before or after moving.

I like this better than the "deep strike" ability as I have not been able to resolve my fear that some Eldar player or another will miss their deepstrike on Turn One and give us a real rules pickle to hash out. I think it might also sorely tempt Eldar players to be fickle, blasting away at ostensible neutrals or even allies for not wanting to waste a chance at attacking when they might get away with it--true to fluff about their inscutable motives.

If you check the current numbers, Shaman, I think you will find that the game is getting more "killy." Standard attack is now a 2 with SM still hitting hardest at 3. I am kind of worried that "A score" inflation will hurt the Guard, however. Giving IG different "artillery configurations" could help.

Manchu wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Manchu: Nids are easily the strongest all-round. No weakness in the army design whatsoever.

This should be their greatest weakness. Other players, upon realizing this, should be willing to band together and pound the Nids into extinction.

I will be limiting the number of possible Nids players, however.

We'll see...

Max 4, just like in Game One should be OK.

Hammer of the Emperor-

Valhallan Ice Warriors

If you check the current numbers, Shaman, I think you will find that the game is getting more "killy." Standard attack is now a 2 with SM still hitting hardest at 3. I am kind of worried that "A score" inflation will hurt the Guard, however. Giving IG different "artillery configurations" could help.

Hmm, yes I am digging the new numbers. No doubt someone will pipe up and say it terrible but I am greatly pleased.

also you are gonna play this time right manchu?

Already stole my Ulthwe.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Already stole my Ulthwe.

Ah yeah didn't see that.

Sorry about skipping out so quickly last game everyone, my monthly cap, reached its' cap.

Anyway, I'll take Imperial guard. Elysian drop troops to be more specific.

Marshall Tolbrecht sets the fleet for a punishment Crusade.

Dark Eldar
A 2 T 1 M 1*/A R 1 Start 10 Max 10
The Thirst of Commorragh: Driven by their insatiable appetite for souls, Dark Eldar slavers strike out from the Webway to sow terror among the livestock races.
Dark Eldar factions may move from their current World to any other World. They may move and reinforce on the same turn as attacking, but only after attacking. They may not
otherwise reinforce nor may they move and then attack on the same turn.

So:

- Attack move reinforce.

But:

- no Move + attack ?

You could spect from DE to be able to move and attack, it's their lifestyle

@Erasoketa: They can--but only as between turns.

Turn 1: attack at Gamma, (move to Alpha and reinforce
Turn 2: attack at Alpha), move to Delta and reinforce
Turn 3: attack at Delta, move to . . . and so on

So that (move to Alpha and reinforce, attack at Alpha) is their "move then attack" combo and must be done over two turns. Why?

Well, unlike Craftworld Eldar, DE are tied to a resource outside of the Webway--namely, slaves. This reliance is predictable, balancing out their unpredictable movement. I represent it in the rules by making the move/reinforce combined action the last thing DE will do most turns. Their addiction to this resource is also mirrored in their rather narrow options. They are like vampires, needing to constantly move from victim to victim. Splitting their attack move like that is also balanced out by letting them reinforce.

Notice that, by contrast, Craftworld Eldar are more aloof. Their unpredictability makes them free to pursue whatever goal they choose, except attrition. They are, in my mind at least, a fairly attractive ally to any other faction. The corresponding Eldar sequence looks like:

Turn 1: attack at Gamma, (move to Alpha, attack at Alpha)
Turn 2: move to Gamma and reinforce
Turn 3: attack at Gamma, (move to Delta, attack at Delta)

The last two thirds of an aggressive Eldar turn are unpredictable. But they have to take a whole turn to reinforce. Notice how vulnerable they are in the red portion. They share this drawback with Space Marines. The problem becomes finding a safe haven to withdraw to. Having a linear Board may help create such havens. I could see an IG-controlled world, for example, trading promises to attack specific enemies for safe passage on a reinforce move.

Ok, I see the point, looks good!

It would be cool to see how they work mixing it with the alliance and betrayal subgame

I would like to play in this one too.

If possible Kraken again.

Sign me up! This has been great fun so far.

I'll probably go with Vostroyans again, but I am change to fill in gaps of other armies. Maybe sisters.

I'll be free to join soon.

Not sure which factions fate to Ruin next.

Pick a juggernaut and sit on a planet if you are worried about dying.

I think the A 3 T 3/2 config for IG is too much. Please consider them A 3 T 3. I will update the OP accordingly tonight. Getting too far into doing mega-damage is not good for horde factions. Tyranids are an intentional exception to that. Keeping SM at A 3 T 1 may seem to make them too much of a target but before offing them other players should consider who will help with the maxed-out Nids in end game. VScott, I will also add you to the list as Kraken later.

Cap'n Nottwotch vows to return. I should have that list of possible actions up by tomorrow.

Manchu wrote:I think the A 3 T 3/2 config for IG is too much.

Keeping SM at A 3 T 1 may seem to make them too much of a target but before offing them other players should consider who will help with the maxed-out Nids in end game.

VScott, I will also add you to the list as Kraken later.

A3 R3 IG are plenty good. Almost as good as Nids.

A3 T1 SM would be murder against T10 armies. Paste a bigger target on their heads!

I forget to name my fleet. I pick "Grendel".
____

1hadhq wrote:I'll be free to join soon.

Not sure which factions fate to Ruin next.

Play SMs!

I am open to suggestions on SM. I feel like they are getting left behind. Short of allowing them to strafe (JSJ), I've been drawing a blank.

Maybe you should make the SM weaker, so they're not as obvious a threat?

A1 M2 R1 H10-15

Also, with VS playing Kraken and me playing Grendel, that still leaves 2 spots for Leviathan and Behemoth...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Maybe you should make the SM weaker, so they're not as obvious a threat?

A1 M2 R1 H10-15

Wow, no! I didn't do anything in the first game, I would still less in the second with that stats xD

@Era: The appearance of weakness is what Manchu suggested would work as the key to the Eldar strategy, and look how well it's turning out for them now...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

A3 T1 SM would be murder against T10 armies. Paste a bigger target on their heads!

Isn't it their duty to devastate those armies? ( yep. fluff answer, not aimed at anyone specific ).
Its only the tactical unsound who try to take out SM, they maybe should try to negotiate and look at the possible endgame filled with
all-day-reinforcing factions as a threat. Some risk could enhance the fun.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

1hadhq wrote:I'll be free to join soon.

Not sure which factions fate to Ruin next.

Play SMs!

I don't know, maybe enlighten me why I should play the weakest faction.
Could also choose something different, as I am open to fill any gaps or provide a ingame example of a factions rules.
Again, examples from one who will not play perfectly rather gain something to think about, as its unlikely that everyone willing to play a faction primarily intends to win. Some just play for fun.

Manchu wrote:I am open to suggestions on SM. I feel like they are getting left behind. Short of allowing them to strafe (JSJ), I've been drawing a blank.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Maybe you should make the SM weaker, so they're not as obvious a threat?

A1 M2 R1 H10-15

Why am I not surprised?

Keeping the issues, and weakening the attacks.
How should this improve anything?
Change to worthless isn't a good thing and i believe most of us prefer to have a choice what they play without considering the
false perceptions of other players.
SM aren't the "obvious threat". They weren't in game one and will not in game two.
The oh-so threatened didn't have much to do to get rid of the SM. Shall we recount the SM?

The friendly gamers running SM couldn't think of anything else than destroy any 10wound faction.
Seems successful as the SM (also 10 wounds) are out.
Maybe consider the few hits dealt from SM as hint on the power of reinforcing vs a mere +1 in attacks.

M2 becomes more common with new factions. A 1 doesn't give you any option as you can't attack and leave so you end right in front of
a faction, hitting it with a mere 1 wound and receiving possibly 2. But you could reinforce and now have -1 wound whilst your target reinforces 1-3 wounds and maybe is stronger after your attack. More of these ideas?
So 15 wounds should make up for the lack of special abilities. Thus, the SM has to jump around, reinforce several turns,
hit something with a pointless attack and then runs to regain his wounds. I am not impressed.
If this is your whole suggestion, why not remove them and replace them with another faction?

Cmon, we all assume the issue is what happened in game one.
Transfer the examples to game 2 and if you honestly could play SM yourself, then I may listen. Otherwise any attempt to ruin
a faction you don't play yourself isn't that convincing that we should follow your suggestions.

I really love SM, but such weaksauce variant of them is an offense to the background of 40k and i recommend to offer any interested player a faction worth playing.

When the SM players play to type in-game, as seen in Final Liberation, what can you expect?

SPACE MARINE
(thundering)

"FOR THE EMPEROR!!!"


COMMISSAR
*looks at the exceptionally big and strong, but none-too-bright SM standing in front of him*

"for the Emperor!"


I love that scene.

Its now the fault of the SM players to keep it with the narrative, rather than focus on winning?

Too bad we didn't feel the need to ignore the background. Erasoketa was a fine Templar

So when do we see JHDD playing this statline/ rules he suggested for SM?

How about editing the statline/ rules into a viable suggestion instead of this joke? As it must be a joke, a serious contribution can't be that weird.

Sign me up please.

The Night Lords 14th Company headed up by the as of yet unnamed Captain and his also as of yet named Lieutenant will return.

The rules for Eldar are solid, that should keep JohnDD happy for now.
Space Marines are good too, their low hit points but high attacks will make them much sought after in allies, and SM will need them to survive past the first couple of turns.

I'll probably try out sisters. Order of the Bloody Rose.

*throws a hissy about Linear boards*

DD if your wondering why your getting attacking in game 1 right now.. this thread provides the answers. (hint read your own posts)

Space marines are fine as they are. I have no complaints.

@Shaman: I was going to get attacked in game 1 regardless.

As for Space Marines, I'm merely responding to questions.

Actually that is not so. I wouldn't have pushed as I have to attack you had you followed dakkas no.1 rule. I was fully anti Imperium before your posts started to irritate. You only have yourself to blame.


@ nightwatch I appreciate your efforts with the moves list. Should you compile it.

For game two being a flat board this is how I see each of the factions as things stand at the time of this post:

Chaos SM's- one of the top armies best adapted for the linear board. Only real negatve is that they are very unlikely to ever hit max strength due to the "May only reinforce while moving before an attack" rule.

Eldar-Very strong and mobile may be the strongest army for this board layout. Negative is that they will draw a lot of fire due to their abilities.

IG- Probably the best army to for less resilient armies to ally with. Lack of mobility will work against them in the end game.

Orks- By themselves are the perfect faction to ignore. When/if 3 Ork Clans become allied and max strength then they will be a problem that will be difficult to beat.

SM's- Are hard hitters but two fragile to for the threat they represent. They will need a resilient home base alliy to shelter under as they reinforce.

Tyranids-Really good on their own but will auto-lose if in a final two with IG.

Now for the proposed factions

Tau- Useless unless their is 2 or more Tau armies on the field. With 2 armies working together they still have a hard road against any other faction in the endgame.

Sisters- Good alliance army for the Imperiom factions. Lack of mobility means they auto-lose in end game with SM and Stalemate with IG.

Dark Eldar- The most viable of the proposed armies.



Right now I'm leaning towards SM's

@ff: Glad you liked the DE. I thought that was a pretty clever write-up for them but the main stumbling block was coming up with a solid Eldar stat line, which I think I have now managed to hammer out. As for Sisters, they are meant for people like 1hadhq and EF (and myself, TBH), who are enjoy characterful play as much as or more than WAAC play. I think either of those guys would be at least content with an "Imperial victory" in contrast to the narrower and harder to manage Survivor victory. I am not satisfied with Tau at the moment, as they are a bit too close to Orks. Watch out for those Orks by the way! A close reading of their rules should show they are more dangerous now than before.

My current idea about SM is to leave them at A 3 T 1 and put the same limit on them as is currently on Tyranid. John makes a good point about them being a high-profile target but I think part of that is a strategy itself. What would suit a Nids player more than having everyone else gang up on what threatens him the most?

We're still looking to firm up the Tau rules and invent something for Necrons. Thanks for all the feedback everybody. As always, your comments and suggestions are sincerely appreciated.

SM with Max 25? How does that even begin to make sense? I mean, I understand Max 15 due to Chaos having the same but Max 25? Maybe you're talking about something else.

Anyway, here are my proposed rules for Necrons:


Necrons
Attakcs: 2 Targets: 1/2 (Necrons Choice) Move: 1 Reinforce: 1 Start: 10 Max: 20-25?
Special Rule: The Necrons Awaken
Throughout the galaxy tomb world are slowly awakening, the trickle of Necron Warriors turns into a flood as evermore awake and reach the surface. At the end of the necron player's turn (once they have posted) the Necron forces are automatically reinforced by one. The Necron player does not need to move or attack for this to occur.

At the beggining of the game the Necron player will be relatively non-threatening and possibly docile as far as armies go. But as the game reaches it's mid-section/end game it quickly becomes a powerful force on it's own. Should the auto-reinforce be 1 or 2? Here's the other special rule.

Super-Best-Super-Friends
Necrons may not attack an SM army named Blood Angels and vice versa. When in the same arena both sides get extra attacks against Tyranid factions.

@Manchu- I just realized that there is a game mechanic in play that you may have overlooked for use as an army modifier/defining point. It is the wound/points chart and how much damage a unit takes. You have modifiers for what can be dealt out and how quickly you can re-inforce, but aside from a base&max number of wounds there is nothing else.

What I'm getting at is for known "tough armies"(Sv 3+ T4 in the game) you could put a modifier on the number of wounds that the Army will take. Basically, If you had necrons and they were attacked by a A2 army you could have them with a rule stating that they only take one wound max from any individual army in a single turn.

Just an idea

focusedfire wrote:Basically, If you had necrons and they were attacked by a A2 army you could have them with a rule stating that they only take one wound max from any individual army in a single turn.

Just an idea

Just a freaking awesome idea! Watch this post.

Combining insights from ff and EF, I present:

Necrons
A 2 T 1 M 1 R 1 Start 15 Max 15
We'll Be Back!: The ancient Necron are death personified; they will show the galaxy once again that only death cannot itself be killed.
Necron factions that take more than one wound from an attack by a single faction will automatically gain one wound per such attack back on their following turn,
assuming they survived the preceding turn. They regain these wounds even if they are also reinforcing that turn.

So here's how this would play out:

With this set-up . . .

Alpha
Space Marines 10

Beta

Gamma
Necrons 15
Dark Eldar 10

On Turn One . . .

SM move to Gamma, attack Necrons; Dark Eldar attack Necrons, move to Alpha; Necrons attack SM:

Alpha
Dark Eldar 10

Beta

Gamma
Space Marines 8
Necrons 10

On Turn Two . . .

Necrons move to Beta, reinforces one, and gain one wound each back from SM and DE Turn One attacks:

Alpha
Dark Eldar 10

Beta
Necrons 13

Gamma
Space Marine 8

What do you guys think?

@Shaman: I apologize if I crossed some line in the trash talk. Otherwise, yeah, I completely expected to go out in flames, and I blame nobody else for that.

In-character trash talking is the most fun, I think.

@ DD I will finish what I started (try to out zandros) but, all is forgiven and forgotten.

@ Manchu -Necrons look scary, yet cool I am tempted to change to them. Very nice work on the rules manchu, EF & FF.

I'm worried about the Necron regenerate thing. Is the onus on the Necron player to remember the correct regen amount? In the case that they miss a turn I'm guessing they don't regain any wounds lost in an attack.

Additionally, I think it should be a max wounds of 2 to be inflicted before the others regenerate, not 1. Otherwise the Necron player will just reinforce that 1 "real" wound, making them impervious to even the most sustained of aussualts.

Also, if the board is to be linear I propose that Eldar movement is restriced from M* to something more like M4 or 5. They really will dominate on a linear board here.

spelling - aussault.

@EF: you know, you can [edit] your post to fix spelling, right?

Meh. Loading times. Probably Eldar dickery.

Finally free to join

Would like to subscribe, just not dead set on a faction.
May post mostly in the Second half of a 24h turn.

I don't totally understand your concern about the Necrons, EF. Could you explain further and maybe use an example like the one I set up. Also, I am not worried about Eldar dominating a Linear Board. They have enough to work against that their M score is a balance rather than a bonus. @all: New factions CANNOT be chosen at this time. Game Two's focus is running beta on the original factions. A lot more thought needs to go into thenew guys before people start picking them.

1hadhq wrote:Would like to subscribe, just not dead set on a faction.

Don"t worry about being set on one. You will be able to change your choice up until the beginning of Game Two. Be sure to read the new stat lines carefully as a lot of small changes have been made and are continuing to be made.

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Would like to subscribe, just not dead set on a faction.

Don"t worry about being set on one. You will be able to change your choice up until the beginning of Game Two. Be sure to read the new stat lines carefully as a lot of small changes have been made and are continuing to be made.

I always keep an eye on the actual rulesets.
So is this 'new' faction thing a addon for game 3 or still later available in game 2?

Did see how Funny the Poll turns out, like 16 votes = 4/4/4/4

I have to pull out.

Unsign me up please.

The Command List for the Permanent Factions is up:

Chaos Space Marines

A) Attack(1,1), Move(1)
B) Move(1), Attack(1,1), Reinforce(1)

Eldar

A) Move(*), Reinforce(1)
B) Attack(1), Move(*), Attack(1)

Imperial Guard

A) Reinforce(3)
B) Move(1)
C) Attack(1,1,1)

Orks

A) Move(2), Reinforce(2)
B) Move(2), Attack(1)
C) Attack(1), Move(2)

Space Marines

A) Move(2), Reinforce(1)
B) Move(2), Attack(3)

Tyranids

A) Attack(1,1), Reinforce(2)
B) Attack(2), Reinforce(1)
C) Move(1)

These commands are based on the statlines and special rules written in the first post, but without rules involving circumstance, like having two Ork factions in one world.

When another race gets accepted to the mix I'd be happy to add it.

This may not be perfect, correct me where I'm wrong!

Awesome work, Nightwatch! It all looks good to me.

IMO, this is definitely better than game 1.

Recommendation: keep each army at 2 or 3 options per turn.

It makes the armies more distinct and makes it easier for all players to develop strategy

So I can't play sisters?

My worries regarding the Necrons were as such:

Set up
Alpha
SM: Space Wolves 10
SM: Black Templars 10

Beta
Necrons: Golden Legion 10

Turn One
Both SM move to Beta and attack Necrons
Necrons attack Space Wolves
Alpha

Beta
Space Wolves 9
Black Templars 10
Necrons 6

Turn Two
Necrons recover 3 wounds, move to Alpha and reinforce 1. Which brings them right back to their original points.
Alpha
Necrons 10

Beta
Space Wolves 9
Black Templars 10

*The SM may choose to attack the Necron force again, but the cycle will just continue in a loop, as any attack that doesn't instantly bing Necrons to 0 is useless. This makes Necrons virtually unkillable. IMHO I think it would be more balance if Necrons recovered half of all wounds inflicted against them rounding up. This is how it would turn out:

Set up
Alpha
SM: Space Wolves 10
SM: Black Templars 10

Beta
Necrons: Golden Legion 10

Turn One
Both SM move to Betta and attack Necrons
Necrons attack Space Wolves
Alpha

Beta
Space Wolves 9
Black Templars 10
Necrons 6

Turn Two
Necrons recover half the wounds inflicted (Half of 4 = 2), move to Alpha and reinforce 1. Which brings them close to their original points, but a difference has been made.
Alpha
Necrons 9

Beta
Space Wolves 9
Black Templars 10

*Here the SM forces have the option of continuing to harass the Necron force. The Necrons are very hard to kill (as only one wound was resulted in the end), but they are not impregnable. This is just my opinion mind you, and I'm just trying to be critical in order to make this as fun and engaging as possible.

Form my understanding of the rules. Space marines should be able to:


Space Marines

A) Move(2), Reinforce(1)
B) Move(2), Attack(3)

As per night watch but also since it says may "move up to two spaces per turn."

C) Move(1), Reinforce(1)
D) Move(1), Attack(3)
E) Move(2)
F) Move(1)
G) Attack(3)

@DD I think this game is quite enjoyable at that level of complexity. This desire to make it simpler is IMO pointless. If you notice I don't play the other survivor games it is for this reason. I also think it would be frustrating for example to play as Space marines and not be able to attack someone in the same sector because I have to move first. Finally when I look at the rules they indicate this range of actions to me.

@Shaman: I understand that you're looking for something more "complex". All good!

Shaman wrote:Form my understanding of the rules. Space marines should be able to:


Space Marines

A) Move(2), Reinforce(1)
B) Move(2), Attack(3)

As per night watch but also since it says may "move up to two spaces per turn."

C) Move(1), Reinforce(1)
D) Move(1), Attack(3)
E) Move(2)
F) Move(1)
G) Attack(3)

@DD I think this game is quite enjoyable at that level of complexity. This desire to make it simpler is IMO pointless. If you notice I don't play the other survivor games it is for this reason. I also think it would be frustrating for example to play as Space marines and not be able to attack someone in the same sector because I have to move first. Finally when I look at the rules they indicate this range of actions to me.

Sorry about that, when I wrote up those descriptions it was with the general intention of portraying the maximum actions available per turn. The idea was that you could lower the numbers if you wish, but are not allowed to do anything past what is written.

I do realize this can come with some complications, such as attacking only after having moved, or some such rule, where it would be incorrect to take away movement, but in general the lists work well, and if Manchu edits the original post to include their possible actions with their statline and rules sets then people can draw on their own the actions they can perform.

In Game 1 I originally had a huge list of actions for all players, that usually went up to at least "E". Then I realized there was no point to including some of them, as they were combined within more complex actions.

Don't know if you caught all that, but keep giving suggestions and if Manchu approves then I'll edit the actions to include that!

I completely understand you intent.

However the RAW mentality of dakka means that everything must be spelled out IMO. It also makes it simpler for those who only dabble in this game to be able to find out everything and make no errors which may or may not be spotted.

Also do I come across as a bastard everyone is apologizing?!? Don't mean to if thats the case.

@EF- The rule as currently read, states that it is one wound regained per each multi-wound attack. Though I can see where it might need a further clarification for some players.


@Manchu-Might I suggest this change to the Necron rule to address EF's very valid concern?

We'll Be Back!: The ancient Necron are death personified; they will show the galaxy once again that only death cannot itself be killed.
Necron factions that receive more than one wound from any individual faction in a single attack will automatically regain one wound per each multiwound attack on their following turn,
assuming they survived the preceding turn. They regain these wounds even if they are also reinforcing that turn.



@Both- Does this clarify the rule enough?

I think instead of that, we should simply give them R2, and the ability to reinforce no matter what. Anyone see a problem with that?

@Symphonius- IMO,Yours version of the Necron rule is OP and fails to express the feel of the Necrons.

The currently proposed rule is interactive in that they only get the bouns when being attacked by Muti-attack armies.

Your proposed version gives them a rapid reproduction/spawning style more fitting for the Tyranids.

focusedfire wrote:
We'll Be Back!: The ancient Necron are death personified; they will show the galaxy once again that only death cannot itself be killed.
Necron factions that receiving more than one wound from any individual faction in a single attack will automatically regain one wound per each multiwound attack on their following turn,
assuming they survived the preceding turn. They regain these wounds even if they are also reinforcing that turn.



@Both- Does this clarify the rule enough?

So if two Multi-attack armies strike (say both SM) at 3 attacks each, the Necrons automatically recover a wound from each multi attack, therefore recovering 2? That makes sense. My only concern now is does this take place for Multi-attacks that are spread around, such as IG Attack 3 Target 3?

@EF-It would have no bearing upon the necrons because they did not receive more than one wound from those factions.(Ughh, Just noticed that I typed receiving as opposed to receive, must..fix..now.)

Wait, what? I'm so confused.

Oh wait, hang on. You're saying that (effectively) no faction can ever cuase more than one wound on Necrons, as any more wounds after the first one from that faction are regenerated in the Necron players turn?

So this makes gangups the best way of dealing with them, and renders hard hitting armies less/im-potent?

I think I got.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Oh wait, hang on. You're saying that (effectively) no faction can ever cuase more than one wound on Necrons, as any more wounds after the first one from that faction are regenerated in the Necron players turn?

So this makes gangups the best way of dealing with them, and renders hard hitting armies less/im-potent?

I think I got.

Almost, it goes like this:

An army with one attack will do one damage with no bonus. Think of this as not leaving enough spare parts or whatever would be needed to activate the special ability. This = 1 wound/turn

An army with A2 and T1 will do 2 wounds but the necrons will automatically regen one of them on the next turn if they are still alive. This = 1 wound/turn if necrons survive

An army with A3 and T1 will do 3 wounds but the necrons will automatically regen one of them on the next turn if they are still alive. This = 2 wound/turn if necrons survive


Does this help?

BTW, Yes Gang ups will work best. It will be like the game where you want to destroy the a whole unit in a single turn to limit the number of WBB rolls.

Ahhhhhh. I get it. Maybe it's best to put this example with the special rule, just to clarify for all. (unless everyone else just isn't as dumb as me)

Shaman wrote:Form my understanding of the rules. Space marines should be able to:


Space Marines

A) Move(2), Reinforce(1)
B) Move(2), Attack(3)

As per night watch but also since it says may "move up to two spaces per turn."

C) Move(1), Reinforce(1)
D) Move(1), Attack(3)
E) Move(2)
F) Move(1)
G) Attack(3)

This correct. Nightwatch's summaries are accurate, as well, but you have to take into account that he doesn't list every possible move according to the larger rules (movement amount is permissive, no factions need move to attack) but rather summarizes the special rules.

focusedfire wrote:@Manchu-Might I suggest this change to the Necron rule to address EF's very valid concern?

We'll Be Back!: The ancient Necron are death personified; they will show the galaxy once again that only death cannot itself be killed.
Necron factions that receive more than one wound from any individual faction in a single attack will automatically regain one wound per each multiwound attack on their following turn,
assuming they survived the preceding turn. They regain these wounds even if they are also reinforcing that turn.

This is perfect, as far as I can tell.

Wow after all this time only 11 players?

I tried to recruit but they had already been contacted by manchu..

I'm not sure why I'm not up there.

The emperor has forsaken you?

Manchu ist Emperor?

The emperor moves in mysterious ways..

Using the internet for the Good of Mankind. Yeah, that's pretty freaking mysterious right there.

Corrected omission of EF and took VScott of the list, leaving us at eleven still. I really would like a few more. Ef, can you get a hold of anyone you played Mafia! with?

Shaman wrote:Wow after all this time only 11 players?

I tried to recruit but they had already been contacted by manchu..

Some like me Escaped the recrutement it seems

May I ask our new god-emporer of strategic survivor threads if this is still a beta to game one?

Oh and....

Dear glorious lord, your humble servant would like to sacrifice another poor faction for the betterment of this thread.
Consider me as backup

Could backup one of the outnumbered factions, again.

@1hadhq: Please feel free to pick any faction.

@all: Game Two will most likely be only original factions as the voting is dead heat and so much regarding the original factions has been changed.

I have been "Requested" into this game

If you'll have me, I'll play Orks

I will play as the illustrious space marine chapter of The Rainbow Warriors.

the_ferrett wrote:I have been "Requested" into this game

Wonderful! A fresh 'volunteer'.

the_ferrett wrote:If you'll have me, I'll play Orks

Oh, we'll have you alright. Welcome aboard! Which Orks are you?

Orkeosaurus wrote:I will play as the illustrious space marine chapter of The Rainbow Warriors.

Good call! I wondered who would nab them given that John is seemingly not keen on the Space Marines and Kid_Kyoto has not deigned to get in on the fun here yet.

Well after looking over the first game this looks good, if there's still time to join then count me in.

I'll be Craftworld Yme-Loc, Eldar. Because all Eldar want to be like them since 5th ed came out

Bad Moonz

I would be interested in playing again - I'll be Bloodaxe Orks.

When would people like to begin Game Two?

Manchu wrote:When would people like to begin Game Two?

It seems to me that Game Two changes are based mostly on "early game" feedback, with only a few Start 10 / R1 armies gone.

I'd almost like to see how Game One progresses to at least half armies down before launching Game Two.

I'm with John here. We're barely at the midgame arena, and we should wait to see if any more changes need to be made before doing this again.

Also, the people request...nay! The people demand that sisters be released!

Watched the beginning of the first game with some interest. Might like to get involved, but I know I can't play 2 games on here at the same time, so would have to be after the current Mafia game ends. So put me down as a maybe, if you're still looking for people.

Very cool game so far.

I'm not sure that I am happy with either the pace or the progression of Game One. First, things are going achingly slowly. Second, the only strategy seems to be reinforce + dogpile. (Maybe there's a whole master plan at work in the PMs that I am not seeing?) Don't get me wrong, different factions are playing differently: Orks have been hopping around reinforcing and are just now entering the fight whereas Chaos and Eldar have been much more proactive, for example. FITZZ suggested that he'd like to see the addition or objectives to encourage more teamsmanship. I also like the idea of overt alliances. I was thinking of putting together a victory point system and letting four or less players band together in declared alliances to share their individually-earned points. You could earn one point for contolling a world the longest (being the person to have stayed on a world the longest after moving there) and two points for killing off another player. I think this would make for faster games inasmuch teams could win more quickly than individuals. Thoughts?

@Manchu: I'm OK with it, but not to the extent that I'd play Eldar again.

1. It is slow, an unforeseen artifact of the rules.

2. The massed reinforce is a function of most armies having a higher max than their starting health, along with broad access to high reinforce rewards. Dogpile is more a side effect of personalities and vendetta, along with the ability for any army to shrug small damage by easy Reinforce.

Orks hop&reinforce is a function of reinforce being easy, and reinforce tied to move.

Eldar & SM both had to be proactive, with nothing to gain by sitting & reinforcing.

VPs for staying put rewards inertia, esp by IG & Nids. I wouldn't...

Victory Points for kills would be nice, but are hard to score.

Team wins would be nice, but there should be some kind of synergy in the rules. For example:

+1A or +1T for each of same army in location.

So you put 4 IG in a location, and they're a real terror...

I would support either weakening all races ability to Reinforce, or perhaps remove it altogether for most, and have all races starting at their Max.

This would ensure games won't go on for ever, like this one seems to be doing.

Maybe something like they can only reinforce every three days or something?

Basically, we need to make it easier and quicker for armies to die.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Basically, we need to make it easier and quicker for armies to die.

That is what I said ages ago. The attacks characteristic has been raised for that reason.

I doubt it will be enough, as that will simply encourage less stand up fights and more running away to recover. By increasing the attacks and lowering the ability to recover from them, it forces the players to kill each other, and quickly.

Also, I think everyone should start at thier max, so that "camping" players who reinforce until confident enough are avoided.

Or the fast players could avoid ganging up on one another to kill the slow hordes?

I think the game 2 is ok as is. I am happy to play in its current state.

If I were going to change anything I would change the game so that doing nothing hurt you. Would stop this hiding and doing nothing players from being in the strongest position at the mid point.

@Manchu you can't expect people to act logically.

Manchu wrote:Or the fast players could avoid ganging up on one another to kill the slow hordes?

So give us some motivation to attack the hordes.

Could live with objectives, missions, setups of 1horde vs everyone else, drop reinforcing completly, more attacks/less wounds,
boni, whatever, just get it back moving as its now slow like a zombie horde...

How should the hard hitting fast armies balance the horde again?

Survivor does run its course if its all about reducing every other entry to 0 like a "royal rumble".


If every one is meant to die faster, the fast armies could slow down. But they need the resilience to stay in the fight, or its turns to a
hit and run game.

So:

1) start at max and no more reinforce on your own (except nids, maybe).
2) to reinforce, a player has to spend one of his own "wounds" to backup another player in the same location.
Restrict it to once per day/ player. This allows to transfer wounds, but weakens the allys as the sum of wounds doesn't change.
Maybe a compatible source would be acceptable, like IG supporting IG., and not orks filling the ranks of IG....
3) maybe lower the max wounds to 15 ( horde ) 20 ( nids ) to have them feel the pain of hard hitting opponents?
4) restrict some armies to 4 or less. 5 IG could pound 3x 10w armies in 2 turns to dust, not impossible if they post after the w10
and before them in the next turn. OTOh, impenetrable fortress.....may I go find a few IG players
But we want it more killy, so scrap that.
5) maybe extras or missions/objectives to spice up the game? Extras should work like they did in old shoot em ups,
use them once, but maybe no way to get new ones. A simple add on to the line could show them:
insert name of army, insert type, insert extras counter, insert wounds. => Blood Ravens (SM) (5) 10








------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought about possible changes and, as its getting a bit dry, lengthy and may not be the perfect solution.

Its a bit pointless to attack a horde that recovers from the hits and your fast army can't recover the damage from the retaliation.
As both armies act in a turn, A3 vs R3 is a zero sum game, but will become worse if the hordes gather and A3 vs R3/A1 or
A3 vs A 1+1 is played. Hordes get 2 boni: R and wounds.

Example 2x A3 vs 2x A1/1 R3

At max its =>

A3/10w + A3/10w vs A1+1/20w + A1+1/20w.

6xA vs 20w = 14w , R3 = 17w , A 1+1 = 9/9w
6xA vs 17w = 11w , R3 = 14w , A 1+1 = 8/8w
6xA vs 14w = 8w , R3 = 11w , A 1+1 = 7/7w
6xA vs 11w = 5w , R3 = 8w , A 1+1 = 6/6w
6xA vs 8w = 2w , R3 = 5w , A 1+1 = 5/5w ( or if the 2w player accepts his doom => A 2 +2 = 4/4w.)
6xA vs 5w = 0w , A1+1 = 4/4 ( 3xA vs 2w = 0w, 3xA vs 20w = 17w , A 1+1 = 3/3w)
6xA vs 20w = 17w , A 1+1 = 3/3w (6xA vs 17w = 14, A 1+1 = 2/2)
6xA vs 17w = 14w , A 1+1 = 2/2w (6xA vs 14w = 8, A 1+1 = 1/1w)
6xA vs 14w = 8w , A 1+1 = 1/1w ( R1, R1 = 2/2w , A 1+1 = 1/1w ), ( A 1/1 vs 1/1w = 0/0w , next turn R3 = 11w)
6xA vs 8w = 2w, A 1+1 = 0/0w. Next turn R3 = 5w. ( 3xA vs 8w = 5w ,R1 = 1/2w , A 1+1 = 0/1w.)
3xA vs 5w = 2w, A 1 = 0w. ( 3xA vs 5w = 2w , R3 = 5w. )
( both fast armies and one horde is down = 20 wounds lost on fast, horde has 5-11 wounds left = 20/40 => 0/5-11. )
the outcome is clear. 2vs 2 works in favor of hordes.If the w10 run and reinforce, the horde will recover faster.
If the fast focus on 1vs1, the horde can just regenerate all day = A3 vs R3 = 0.If they focus on 2vs1, they may drag down 1 horde but will die both in that process as they are easy prey at low wounds and cannot kill both hordes.
IMO, 3 vs 2 or 2 vs 1 is the way to go then. But then you get the issue of planning a combined attack.

Without reinforcing the first example goes:

6xA vs 20w = 14w , A 2/2 = 8/8 w.
6xA vs 14w = 8w, A 2/2 = 6/6w.
6xA vs 8w = 2w, A 2/2 = 4/4w.
3xA vs 2w = 0w, 3xA vs 20w = 17w, A 1/1 = 3/3w.
6xA vs 17w = 11w, A 1/1 = 2/2w.
6xA vs 11w = 5w, A 1/1 = 1/1w.
(depends who acts first next turn)
6xA vs 5w = 0w. ( A 1/1 vs 1/1w = 0/0w.)
so either both hordes die or both fast die. Fast still become easy prey at 1/1.

or
(2x)3xA vs 20w = 17/17w, (2x) A1+1 vs 10/10w = 8/8w.
(2x)3xA vs 17w = 14/14w, (2x)A1+1 vs 8/8w = 6/6w.
(2x) 3xA vs 14w = 11/11w, (2x) A1+1 vs 6/6w = 4/4w.
(2x) 3xA vs 11w = 8/8w, (2x) A 1+1 vs 4/4w = 2/2w.
(2x) 3xA vs 8w = 5/5w, (2x) A 1+1 vs 2/2w = 0/0w.
(both horde survive, both fast are down.)
reduces horde to a smaller threat of 5w, but still fast doesn't survive


Maybe 4 vs 4 then?

4x3A vs 20w = 8w, 4x 1+1+1 A vs 10wx4 = 10/6/6/6 w.
3x3A vs 8w = 0, 3xA vs 20w = 17w. 3x 1+1+1A vs 6wx4 = 10/3/3/3w.
4x3A vs 17w = 5w, 3x 1+1+1 A vs 6/3/3/3w = 10/0/0/0w. ( 3 x 1+1+1 A vs 6/3/3/3w = 3/0/0/3w )
3xA vs 5w = 2w, 3x1A vs 10w = 7w. ( 3x 1+1 A vs 3/3w = 0/0w)
3xA vs 2w = 0w, 2x1A vs 7w = 5w.
3xA vs 20w = 17w , 2x1A vs 5w = 3w
3xA vs 17w = 14w , 2x1A vs 3w = 1w
3xA vs 14w = 11w , 2x1A vs 1w = 0w
(4 fast down, 2 horde down)
Maybe the horde post first?
4x3A vs 20w = 8w, 4x 1+1+1 A vs 10wx4 = 8/8/6/6 w. (opening)
4x 1+1 A vs 8/8/6/6w = 6/6/2/2w, 3x3 A vs 8w = 0w, 3xA vs 20w = 17w.
3x 1+1+1 A vs 6/6/2/2w = 5/3/0/0w, 2x3A vs 17w = 11w.
3x 1+1A vs 5/3w = 2/0W, 3xA vs 11w = 8w.
3x 1 A vs 2w = 0w.
(4 fast down, 1 horde down)
horde wins because 4x20w and spreading fire are better than 4x10w and focusing fire.

So fast decides to go 1vs1:
3xA vs 20w = 17w ( 17/17/17/17), but horde shouldn't do this and sticks with 4x 1+1+1 A = 8/8/6/6w
3xA vs 17w = 14w ( 14/14/14/14) again 4x 1+1+1 A = 4/4/4/4w.
3xA vs 14w = 11w (11/11/11/11), again 4x 1+1+1A = 1/1/1/1w
3xA vs 11w = 8w ( 8/8/8/8), now 1+1+1 A = 0/0/0/1w, 1xA = 0w.
(4 horde survive badly mauled but all fast are down)
neither focusing or spreading attention hands victory to fast, horde win again.

IMO, this becomes worse with greater hordes. Twice the wounds plus dishing out barrages.....


Example after changes:

2 vs 2:

(2x) 3xA vs 20w = 14w, (2x) 1+1 A vs 10/10w = 8/8w
(2x) 3xA vs 14w = 11w, (2x) 1+1A vs 8/8w = 6/6w.
(2x) 3xA vs 11w = 5w, (2x) 1+1A vs 6/6w = 4/4w.
( 2x) 3xA vs 5w = 0w, 1+1A vs 4/4w = 3/3w.
Fast leaves battle, swaps forces. ( 1x 6w instead of 2x3w).
Return to fight:
3xA vs 20w = 17w, 1A vs 6w = 5w.
3xA vs 17w = 14w, 1A vs 5w = 4w.
3xA vs 14w = 11w, 1A vs 4w = 3w.
3xA vs 11w = 8w, 1A vs 3w = 2w.
3xA vs 8w = 5w, 1A vs 2w = 1w.
3xA vs 5w = 2w, 1A vs 1w = 0w.
both fasts down, but 1 horde just barely alive at 2w...

Reduced max wounds:

(2x) 3A vs 15w = 9w, (2x) 1+1A vs 10/10w = 8/8w
(2x) 3A vs 9w = 3w, (2x) 1+1A vs 8/8w = 6/6w
3A vs 3w = 0w, 3xA vs 15w = 12w, 1+1A vs 6/6w = 5/5w
(2x) 3xA vs 12w = 6w, 1+1A vs 5/5w = 4/4w
(2x) 3xA vs 6w = 0w.
or
3xA vs 15w = 12w, (2x) 1A vs 10w = 8w
3xA vs 12w = 9w, (2x) 1A vs 8w = 6w
3xA vs 9w = 6w, (2x) 1A vs 6w = 4w
3xA vs 6w = 3w, (2x) 1A vs 4w = 2w (1A vs 4w = 2w ,reinforce 1 => 15-1= 3w +1=4w)
3xA vs 3w = 0w, 1A vs 2w = 1w (3xA vs 4w = 1w, (2x)1A vs 2w = 0w)
fast wins a 2vs2, but is low at 50% strength or dies in a 1vs2 but drags one down with.

IMO, preferrable when hordes need to gather to survive.

Assumed we want to keep the difference of A/M or M/A or M or A ,
-hordes should be slow and attack where they stand (A) or move (M).
IG needs its time to setup a proper formation, A or M. Nids may not hop from world to world but try to consume one wholly, A or M.
. Orks could A+M, but benefit from staying in one theatre of war.
-fast should be able to move and attack (M/A) and attack (A) and move (M) or attack and move (A/M).
SM may stand and fight or move and fight. Eldar may choose to A+M or M+A, a bit hit and run.
CSM could A+M or M+A, maybe if they stay 2 turns and fight their demonic allies chime in (NPC 5w / A 1+1, may not move).
-reeinforce maybe as gaining power form eaten opponents ( nids in a fight ) or gathering a waagh ( multiple orks maybe 2 turns fighting at 1 world ). Anyone else may share wounds with his faction members. ( 1 per turn/recipient).
-statlines:
SM A3 M2 10w
CSM A2 M2 10w
IG A 1/1/1 M1 15w
Eldar A1(2) M* 10w
Orks A1/1 M1 15w
Nids A 2 or 1/1 M1 10w/max 20w

-specials
nids may omnom to recover wounds = 1/2 per turn.
orks gather a waagh if they stay and fight 2 turns. >Each ork army may recover 1 wound at the end of the second turn in the same location, fighting obviously, as lazy gitz that doesn't fight isn't proper ork
eldar may choose to A and M or M and A, using their webway their free to go wherever they please. May focus at a mission and
get a second attack, but loose the option to use the webway then and becomes M2.
csm may stay in a fight for 2 turns and call their demonic allies. NPC/ A 1/1 M 0 5w, may never recover wounds.
IG may dig in, if left unassailed for 2 turns the IG may choose to reduce max damage per opponent to 2.
SM, can't run away like eldar and can't use "allies" like CSM. Their low numbers making them small targets and combined with the
inbreed resilience, SM never suffer more than a single wound from 1 opponent.(reduce A2 to A1).


Please do not take offense if thats not to your taste.

Disclaimer: this isn't run through any math software so I may have it wrong.

Wow. That was just a bunch of numbers to me. Like staring into the Matrix...or the Warp with digits.

I agree with Emperor's Faithful...

--------------------------------------

I don't see how we can implement objectives?

Three days to reinforce + if you are on an objective by the end of a phase, you get a reinforcement of 3~5?

Or perhaps the objective is to wound a random player?

Gah, hold an artifact that you can steal in lieu of dealing damage?

@1had: good analysis, and confirming that R is to high and too easy. Also confirms that A1 is pretty much useless.

@IS: objectives that require day to day tracking are no good. Static / faction bonuses / penalties by site would be nice:

E.g. Eye of Terror - Eldar may not Reinforce here.

Hang on, perhaps the Game Maker could set each player an objective? Such as outlasting a particular players.

So Manchu would Send a PM to player.

Objective: To outlast the Goffs.

or

Objective: To make the killing blow on the Vostroyans.


This would affect the overall goal of the game, but it would make things fun for those even if they lose. It gives them a "well I'm dead meat, but I can drag my objective down with me!"

I like EF's idea but that keeps the host in the referee role and I had hoped that the game would be entirely self-modded. Anyway, I'd be more than happy if someone would like to overhaul the existing faction concepts to work with 1hadhq's findings.

Well, it doesn't really, you give everyone an objective (try to make sure no one get's named twice or given the same goal), and then you enter the game as well. I suppose you could set yourself a personal goal, but these secondary objectives don't really need to be modded, and as a bonus it will also encourage people to get stuck right in with thier foes (making pacts with others to help) rather than avoid and reinforce.

Ok, we have a primary objective......which is...?
Lets say, the central world is the only place to contact the rest of the galaxy and to bring in the reserves.
Sort of a webway/jumppoint/warpgate/.... and therefore the only place to reinforce.
Secondly, a line is used, about 7 worlds with the centre (primary objective/re-enforce point).
If everyone starts at max, there is no reason to camp. Plus, we could install a "son/daughter I am dissapoint" rule.
Where the liege (emperor, gork&mork, khaine,hive mind) of every faction kicks his followers if they stay inactive.
You know, the audience demands entertainment...
How to implement?
Make attacks mandatory outside the centre. If not dishing out, you receive a reminder from your patron...maybe - 1 wound.
So we have a "eye of the storm" in the middle where one may reinforce and focusing on that cannot attack ( but can attack if s/he
doesn't reinforce), a playfield to fight upon to reduce the contenders to claim the centre.
Now I hear you ask why anyone should leave the centre?
Maybe because everyone there could attack you? Maybe the secondary objectives?

And I would welcome our (former referee) to the field of battle.
Don't need personal objectives. Maybe general secondary objectives. Like boni to grab at the outer worlds.....maybe an attack multiplier ?

Would also upgrade the statline to A = 2 and M = 2 as regular, but min wounds then 15.

To be honest, there are too many rules there. I'm against "In-Game" objectives, and more in favour of "End-Game" objectives.

Emperors Faithful wrote:To be honest, there are too many rules there. I'm against "In-Game" objectives, and more in favour of "End-Game" objectives.

Too many rules?
Its just a Map. Dunno, did expect wargamers beeing used to terrain effects...

So how do these "end game objectives" work?

Why is the whole Mission generating work handed to Manchu Wasn't the request less work to free him to join?

But if a additional motivation is neccessary, we could form teams and aim for a team win. Nothing preset like factions,
more a 'secret' line up of teams ( at 15 players = 5 X 3 teams ), declared in PM from OP before the game starts.
Drawback: one may not like his teammates...

Plus, I really want to know if there is interest to speed the game up.

Apparently I'm back and alive and wasn't eaten by Canadian wildebeests.

That also means now I'm back in time to perhaps try this sucker out - sign me up skipper.

I'll probably be obligated to pick DE out of a sense of loyalty to the army, plus if I pick like that I don't need to work too hard trying to wrap my head around which army is the most powerful (numberwise it's certainly not DE, so I figure the mobility will pay off. Speed kills.)

In my opinion, we Ork players have had to play negatively in order to survive - for example IG can attack 3 AND reinforce 1. That's substantially more powerful than Orks.
The only way I could see to survive was to carry out the odd hit-and-run, whilst reinforcing whenever I could. It's worked so far, to be fair.

I mean, it doesn't necessarily make for a more fun game, but then, I'm not going to make a bunch of bad tactical decisions just to make it more fun for everyone!

@Thor: Would you once-over these rules and Game One. Everyone is trying to figure out what might make things smoother before beginning Game Two.

@Albatross: I think you're right about G1 Orks. Take a look at how I spiffed them up for G2.

Okay my schedule is clear now.

Could I please be back on the list as the Kraken again?
pleeeeaaaase?

If I can have Cadia, I'll gladly give you Kraken.

Wrong thread John.
That discussion is in the game in progress one. I'm trying to re-sign up for game two.

Oh, oops. Haha!

Manchu wrote:So if you want to start brainstorming your own version or populating your own game here on Dakka, by all means--I will probably even sign up myself. I have actually been hoping that this is eventually what Game Two would be like anyhow.

Depending on when Game One winds down and Game Two kicks off, I will probably start a similarly-themed game that depends more on faction play to emphasize teamwork over individual play. It won't ban soloing, but the mechanics mean that solos and small factions will suffer proportionally

Would you mind sending me some rules?

It's a little too soon to release anything detailed, but I'll get you more information later.

It's up!

Team Survivor rules & interest

Current signup totals are

1 CSM
3 SM
4 IG
1 Eldar
1 Orks
1 Nids (me!)

3 unknown

Based on the current board composition, I change my army to Imperial Guard - Ragnarok!

5 IG!

I'll change mine to SM please, too many IG perhaps.

Salamanders if you will.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Current signup totals are

1 CSM
3 SM
4 IG
1 Eldar
1 Orks
1 Nids (me!)

3 unknown

Based on the current board composition, I change my army to Imperial Guard - Ragnarok!

5 IG!

Welcome Ragnarok

Did you miss 1 ork and 1 nid ?



Maybe FF, Thor and I aren't settled on a choice yet.....
Should look like this:

1 CSM
4 SM
4 IG
1 Eldar
2 Orks
1 Nids
4 IG

3 unknown

Yet again something has come up.
I am now an Uncle and must visit my Brother in Wales
Will be gone between (roughly) 28th July to the 8th August. (maybe)

@1hadhq: I just went by the front page.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@1hadhq: I just went by the front page.

I am sure you were.


Are 2 players the whole greenskin horde?
Seems the nids ate too much mushrooms, almost no boyz left to fight...

John/Manchu/Leader person.

I choose Bad Moonz

I have to stress (again) the importance of severely weakening armies ability to reinforce (all of them). Reinforce 3 for IG is, quite simply, ridiculous. Perhaps slightly better than being able to reinforce while attacking, but still OP. Game One is draging on for ages, and most end-game armies are strong all the way through (easily recovering from attacks) and all but unkillable at the end.

I'm dieing off pretty easily. You guys have more attacks than I can recover.

4 armies all attacking you.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I have to stress (again) the importance of severely weakening armies ability to reinforce (all of them). Reinforce 3 for IG is, quite simply, ridiculous.

Quite simply, no army should be able to reinforce more than 1 per turn, and any reinforce should be conditional to staying put, moving, attacking, or being attacked.

The thing is, with 4 armies all pounding Tyranids, it's going to take ages. At least a week if not more. That's just ridiculous, any other army (save perhaps IG) would have been smashed by now.

We need to make this game faster, harder and easier to get killed off quickly in.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The thing is, with 4 armies all pounding Tyranids, it's going to take ages. At least a week if not more. That's just ridiculous,

any other army (save perhaps IG) would have been smashed by now.

We need to make this game faster, harder and easier to get killed off quickly in.

Currently at W18 with 4 A1 armies attacking, vs his A2R2, he only loses W2 per day. So it'll be 9 days of constant pounding before he dies. But Nids are relatively easy to kill because they don't move, and they can't Reinforce without Attacking. Strategically, it is a *huge* mistake for players to be attacking Nids at this point of the game, because they're the only A2 faction remaining, so they're the only ones who can take big bites out of Orks, speaking of which...

Orks are also R2, so they take just as long to kill if they go defensive. Actually, Orks are *harder* to kill because they are actually M1R2 against MxA0 / M0Ax opponents. Strategically, the IG are playing oddly. Orks should be their highest priority target, because, if they don't take them out while the Bugs and Elfs are helping, they are *never* going to catch them. Ork can run around the ring for the rest of the game, reinforcing 2, each time. At worst, they step on an IG / Nid square and take 1 or 2 "extra" hits that turn, which are immediately undone upon moving off. At least the Elfs "get it"...

Line topology helps here - if Manchu hadn't chosen a Ring, at least targets can be "cornered". Similarly, without R2 factions, targets can die faster. Plus, there's the bit about being able to heal above Start, vs starting at Max and having a limit to healing. I noticed this, which is why TS deliberately makes healing harder, and starts with a linear Board. Of course, I had the advantage of seeing SS in action, so I was able to see how players would react and adjust things accordingly. Game-wise, TS will play faster and bloodier, but then, it was specifically designed to do so.

I'm just worried about certain factions with Move*, that will be impossible to pin down. But hey, that's Eldar for you.

I think Reinforce should be done in lieu of anything else, it's just too useful.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm just worried about certain factions with Move*, that will be impossible to pin down. But hey, that's Eldar for you.

I think Reinforce should be done in lieu of anything else, it's just too useful.

Oh, you'll never catch the M* players. But there are only 2 of them, and they don't hit hard.

I agree, which is why nearly everybody spent roughly the first week recharging.

Right now, the game is headed toward a very slow finish, ultimately ending in a Draw of some sort. If it were my game, I'd accelerate it with Global actions, but that's not my call.

Global actions? I just want things to die easier, me included.

If it were up to me, I'd accelerate the game like this:

Warp Storm -- at the start of each new day, all armies above 10 suffer two hits, any armies at 10 or less suffer one hit; Armies also suffer one hit if they Move

StratS 2 is on indefinite hold in favor of John's Team Survivor, which I would highly encourage EVERYONE interested in playing StratS again to join before August 2 (this Monday!). Not only is TeamS a cool game in and of itself, playing it will give us a better idea of how StratS can be made better or whether we need to go into a different direction.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:The thing is, with 4 armies all pounding Tyranids, it's going to take ages. At least a week if not more. That's just ridiculous,

any other army (save perhaps IG) would have been smashed by now.

We need to make this game faster, harder and easier to get killed off quickly in.

Currently at W18 with 4 A1 armies attacking, vs his A2R2, he only loses W2 per day. So it'll be 9 days of constant pounding before he dies. But Nids are relatively easy to kill because they don't move, and they can't Reinforce without Attacking. Strategically, it is a *huge* mistake for players to be attacking Nids at this point of the game, because they're the only A2 faction remaining, so they're the only ones who can take big bites out of Orks, speaking of which...

Orks are also R2, so they take just as long to kill if they go defensive. Actually, Orks are *harder* to kill because they are actually M1R2 against MxA0 / M0Ax opponents. Strategically, the IG are playing oddly. Orks should be their highest priority target, because, if they don't take them out while the Bugs and Elfs are helping, they are *never* going to catch them. Ork can run around the ring for the rest of the game, reinforcing 2, each time. At worst, they step on an IG / Nid square and take 1 or 2 "extra" hits that turn, which are immediately undone upon moving off. At least the Elfs "get it"...

Line topology helps here - if Manchu hadn't chosen a Ring, at least targets can be "cornered". Similarly, without R2 factions, targets can die faster. Plus, there's the bit about being able to heal above Start, vs starting at Max and having a limit to healing. I noticed this, which is why TS deliberately makes healing harder, and starts with a linear Board. Of course, I had the advantage of seeing SS in action, so I was able to see how players would react and adjust things accordingly. Game-wise, TS will play faster and bloodier, but then, it was specifically designed to do so.

Seems we may agree now it should be easier to damage a single target if 4 armies focus on it.
But I disagree about the strategy. As one of the IG players, it is a valid course taken there.
-Nids may not suffer from 2 A1 attacks, but slowly lose wounds to 4 A1 attacks. => less than 5 non-nids around isn't a good strategy.....
-orks may run away, but ork players tend to accept a fight and stay, so if IG and orks go R2 and heal themselves and this "run and reinforce" leads nowhere....
There is nothing odd, as elfs won't help anyone, they just need to run away all the time and without a change to allow everyone
to catch everyone, this means they have a nearly guaranteed place in the last 3.
Nids.
Nids like the brawls in one place, but can't hunt anyone, therefore autoloose against eldar. A Nids/Eldar/IG endgame would benefit Eldar, not IG.
Nids vs IG isnt going anywhere if 2 IG armies are alive. Nids or IG vs eldar achieves at best a boring game of "invulnerable" elfs dancing around them, you need to catch an army when you post, the time is important and not only the stats.
(eldar could post close to a new day, gettin a move-hit-hit-move done.)

a possible solution could be an equal movement and less complicated balancing across armies.

Actual Guard tactics allow maximum benefits and flexibility.
Plus IG could do a full blast (1/1/1) too....

@1hadhq:

Ork players run away all the time. You didn't see that in this game?

Agree that "run & reinforce" leads nowhere

Agree that Eldar have great chance for end-game draw

Disagree that Nids autolose to Eldar: Eldar appear, Nids eat & eat again before Eldar turn.

Nids v 2 IG is a guaranteed draw of A2R2 vs A2R2

Eldar M-A-A-M makes some difference at breaking any draw, which is why they're needed in the end game.

FYI, Team Survivor kicks off on Monday.

We currently have 3 teams (SM, IG, and CSM) of players, and I think it's going to be a lot of fun.

We are looking for and accepting new players and new teams, so please check it out.

Thanks!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ork players run away all the time. You didn't see that in this game?

What do you expect with LD 7? They're only "big" with lots of friends....

And the IG has enough spare time to wait for the greenskins to come.
Plus we don't lack prometheum...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Disagree that Nids autolose to Eldar: Eldar appear, Nids eat & eat again before Eldar turn.

Did you see what FF did to the orks?
Works against nids too.

Orks should get all of their bonuses for moving into the Attack. Make it where the orks reinforce by two only when they move into a sector and attack. Other wise make them either choose to attack(2) or to reinforce(1) or to move(1).

Take nids down to max of 20 and only able to reinforce when attacking.

Just a couple of ideas

@ihadhq: Did you see what *I* did to the Orks? Move & Eat 2. Eat 2 & Eat 2. That double move works fine for Nids, too.

I think Orks should be A2R1 or M1A2

JohnHwangDD wrote:@ihadhq: Did you see what *I* did to the Orks? Move & Eat 2. Eat 2 & Eat 2. That double move works fine for Nids, too.

Seen that. But its different. Orks could run away and nids can't M/A them. Eldar could hit and run on a daily basis and nids could not retaliate if the eldar post close to a new day.

So orks = may attack but can't reinforce then.
And nids = may attack and reinforce but cant move then.
Eldar may attack, reinforce and move.

2 options / 3 options.
I think 3 is better than 2.......

Plus unrestricted movement vs M1.
Ork = moves 1, maybe another opponent there.
Nid = moves 1, maybe more food there.
Eldar = moves to empty location, far away from anyones reach.

Agreed, beeing online when a new turn begins has some advantages.

If Orks run, then they don't attack, either, so it's zero-zero

That said, I don't have unrestricted movement in my game.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
That said, I don't have unrestricted movement in my game.

And were willing to give it a try next week.

Yup. The only thing that's going to be close will be the SM Deep Strike and the CSM Infiltrate moves, but that's their first move, and done.

Manchu wrote:StratS 2 is on indefinite hold in favor of John's Team Survivor, which I would highly encourage EVERYONE interested in playing StratS again to join before August 2 (this Monday!). Not only is TeamS a cool game in and of itself, playing it will give us a better idea of how StratS can be made better or whether we need to go into a different direction.

Thanks, Manchu. Once Team Survivor gets rolling and we see how it plays, I'll be more than happy to work with you on making "Strat Survivor 2". The Team Survivor skeleton has a lot of possibilities for interesting gameplay variants.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Agree that "run & reinforce" leads nowhere

Exactly, this is what we want to avoid at all costs, hence I advocate restricting the ability of ALL races that can move and reinforce. Reinforce should (IMHO) be done in lieu of all else, which makes having a strong home base (with allies) very important.

Agree that Eldar have great chance for end-game draw

Eldar will be hard to kill, but it is unlikely to end in a fair draw as Eldar can only Max 10 while others will have plenty of opportunity to max out above and beyond Eldar reach.
If Eldar are M* in a Linear Board, I'm in favour of the other armies having more movement.

All:

FYI, Manchu and I will be launching Team Survivor Game 2 in a week or two. We are looking for input and suggestions, along with potential interest.

Thanks,

/John

I'm not dead.

I think i'm going to drop out of this, and probably won't even join team survivor two.

Have alot of things to do, the genestealer game is already pushing it.

So, I obviously won't have a desire to pick up game one, more so since my being a dunce would leave JohnHwangDD out of the game.

/goestopaintmoreforthenovaopen

OK, no problem. It's all OK, just a game.

...You basterd, I lost the Game.