Yes, I do mean a WGPL!

I blame the typo on the Rum!

Gwar! wrote:IF you use the GW FAQs as Law, then they can. IF you are like me and enjoy playing the game by the actual rules, he cannot. YMMV of course etc etc *Boilerplate Disclaimer to not get banned again*

Didn't several posters just say that they were treating the FAQ as Rules? This provides nothing to the debate.

dietrich wrote:

Gwar! wrote:IF you use the GW FAQs as Law, then they can. IF you are like me and enjoy playing the game by the actual rules, he cannot. YMMV of course etc etc *Boilerplate Disclaimer to not get banned again*

Didn't several posters just say that they were treating the FAQ as Rules? This provides nothing to the debate.

Nor does your post. What's your point?

And "Several Posters" does not equal everyone, so my post is meaningful for those other people.

Can we just all take it as read that the majority of users are going to follow the GW FAQ, and base the argument around that position?

It does not help move the debate forwards to keep saying "if you don't count the FAQs as official" when most people do.

The GW documents generally get rolled into the INAT doc, which is the other widely used FAQ.

Kilkrazy wrote:Can we just all take it as read that the majority of users are going to follow the GW FAQ, and base the argument around that position?

It does not help move the debate forwards to keep saying "if you don't count the FAQs as official" when most people do.

The GW documents generally get rolled into the INAT doc, which is the other widely used FAQ.

Yes, but as I pointed out, "most people" is not the same as "all people", myself being one of the ones who tend to ignore the FAQ when it ignores RaW.

I post for the benefit of ALL Dakkaites, not just the ones who follow the FAQs as though they are the Word of The Empra. That's why I make it very clear that my answers are following RaW as opposed to RaW ignoring FAQs.

But whatever, last 2 times I criticised GW I got 2 day bans, so I'll drop it.

Brother Ramses wrote:Tri, the IC would be able to OBEL because the OBEL rule specifies when the Wolf Scout outflanks, they may OBEL. When the IC joins a Wolf Scout unit, he becomes part of that unit for a purposes except close combat.

So when a Wolf Scout unit (including an attached IC) chooses to outflank, they may OBEL.

Nos, our difference of opinion is based on the reading of the BRB. I already think that the BRB was suffiecient to allow an IC with Saga of the Hunter to outflank/OBEL with Wolf Scouts as written. The FAQ only further verified my opinion.

You think that the BRB did not allow it, thus a FAQ is insufficient and errata is required.

However, the writers/developers seems to agree with my opinion that BRB and codex were sufficient because they ONLY issued a FAQ and did not deem that an errata was necessary.

Show me where it says that Saga of the Hunter allows Behind Enemy Lines. It allows him to Outflank, that's it.
And as has been pointed out several times already, joining a Hunter IC to the Scouts kills off their ability to Outflank anyways, due to the USR rules.
Even the FAQ only says he can join a unit that is Outflanking, and yes, I know the Scouts are the only unit in the codex that can do so. Unless of course, you are running several characters with Hunter (which can be done by giving them other stuff to make them diffeent, right?).......

Bottom line, by RAW, you cannot join a Hunter IC to Scouts and have them Outflank, much less have them OBEL. The rules simply do not permit it.

That's what I'm saying. don_mondo gets it.

Ok, I gotta get in on this one cause I have debated this on our group forum.

Behind Enemy Lines opens with the Wolf Scouts using their OUTFLANK ability. It is the same as everyone else using outflank, just different rolls.

Saga of the Hunter grants the special character OUTFLANK.

At best you could say that the Wolf Scouts would now have to roll using the Outflank rolls from the rulebook and not the Behind Enemy Lines rolls. That would be the only change.

The FAQ clearly states: Q. Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

Janurary 2010

To me they reference the Wolf Scouts as they are the only unit in the entire codex that can OUTFLANK.

This is a non-issue. This is one of the compromised rulings that the INAT has gotten right in my opinion. Is it worded well "No", but it is clear as to how it is supposed to work. Saying that an HQ with Saga of the Hunter cannot attach to Wolf Scouts is foolish. Anyone that says otherwise is nitpicky and wrong.

My 2 whole cents.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - not a difference of opinion, you simply a) made up when Ouutflank is conferred (it is conferred AT deployment, not before, therefore you are wrong) and b) you ignore that the rules conferring Outflank are lost *before* you can declare the unit is outflanking together, as you must declare that the unit is joined together witht he IC before you can state the unit whole is performing X action.

the FAQ is a houserule, therefore states the normal rules dont allow this. Please reread the Shrine of Knowledge disclaimer on FAQ vs errata - you are wrong even in your final statement, as they do NOT believe it is part of the rules and so they made it a houserule.

Look at the Reserves rule and the order of operations:

During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the play must clearly explain the organization of his reserves to the opponent.

First he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will be rolled for and will arrive together, or not in which case they will count as a separate unit when rolling for reserves.

So I declare to my opponent that my Wolf Scouts are in reserves and my WGBL w/Saga of the Hunter is in reserve. At that point the outflank rule is conferred to the Wolf Scouts. I then specify to my opponent that my WGBL w/Saga of the Hunter is joining my Wolf Scout unit. The Wolf Scouts lose their Scout USR and Infiltrate USR, but they keep their outflank because it was already conferred by being placed into reserves AND the WGBL has that special rule from Saga of the Hunter granting him outflank, thus adhering to RAW.

And my final statement is not wrong. You have the developers of the game telling you exactly how they are playing the rule. They are telling you they read the BRB, the codex, and came to this conclusion thus have FAQ'd the issue brought up by the player base. The developers are playing it in agreement to my reading of the rule per RAW, not the rule per your RAI.

So you can outflank him but do you get BEL?

ChocolateGork wrote:So you can outflank him but do you get BEL?

You can outflank him fine. You can't put him in a unit of Wolf Scouts though.

But FAQ says yes.

Yes he can OBEL because the OBEL specifies thay when the Wolf Scout unit uses outflank they OBEL. The IC is part of the Wolf Scout unit for all purposes except close combat where he is treated as a separate unit.


Edit: I had hit post twice from my Blackberry.

BR please stop repeating yourself. It lends no weight to your opinion. I agree with Gwar he can neither OBEL or join the squad of Wolf Scouts. Gwar has spelt it all quite clearly.

G

But the games workshop FAQ spells it out very clearly.

And i could of sworn we use their rules.

ChocolateGork wrote:But the games workshop FAQ spells it out very clearly.

And i could of sworn we use their rules.

While This has been pointed out before, I feel it is neccisary to point it out again.

FAQs ≠ Rules.

By the RULES, The wolf lord cannot Outflank with the Scouts, as he does not Have Scouts or Infiltrate.

That being said, the Wolf Lord Doesn't have OBEL either, so even with the FAQ, he cannot join the Scouts and Outflank since Scouts MUST OBEL.

This is a case where Gwar actually agrees with what the rules say so I must disagree with you. It does happen from time to time.

G

Q. Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

So he may outflank ... this is not RAW as the moment he joins the unit they loose all the rules that let them out flank. Since the FAQ lets them outflank they may BUT nothing at all give the the IC access to behind enemy lines, in such situations we look to the rules on page 48 of the BGB. In short unless a special rules states that it effects character that join the unit (or vise-versa) the rule does not effect them: so a unit of scout may use "Behind Enemy Lines" it just won't do anything for the IC that's joined them.

The FAQS do equal rules.

Or their will be a whole lot of sad ork players

And as a PP pointed out, He becomes part of the unit While still joined.

Do you understand how USRs work with characters joining units? This is a case where the character negates the squad's special rule.

G

And they only lose universal special rules.

Other wise just pop a lord in some thousand sons and no more slow and puposeful.

ChocolateGork wrote:And they only lose universal special rules.

Other wise just pop a lord in some thousand sons and no more slow and puposeful.

Thousand sons are slow and puposeful this is a special rule without the "*" so is not lost when joined by IC without it (vise-versa) ... this does not effect the lord (see page 48) so he cannot move and shoot heavy weapons. The unit most move at the speed of the slowest model since the TS are S&P so the unit can only move as fast as they roll.

"Behind Enemy Lines" does not work if the scouts cannot "Outflank". Scouts can only "Outflank" if they have "Infiltrate" or "Scouts" Universal Special Rules (USR). Scouts lose these two rules if an Independent Character joins them. The FAQ even says Saga of the Hunter works only if the unit he is joining is outflanking; however, they cannot outflank if he joins them.

It does not work.

It has to work as the FAQ states he can outflank with them.

but they BEL when they outflank.

If he cant BEL then he cant outflank.

But he can outflank.

but has to work as the FAQ states he can outflank with them.

but they BEL when they outflank.

If he cant BEL then he cant outflank.

But he can outflank.

but has to work as the FAQ states he can outflank with them.

but they BEL when they outflank.

If he cant BEL then he cant outflank.

But he can outflank..........................

Black Blow Fly wrote:BR please stop repeating yourself. It lends no weight to your opinion. I agree with Gwar he can neither OBEL or join the squad of Wolf Scouts. Gwar has spelt it all quite clearly.

G

Excuse me? None of you naysayers have actually debunked what I have said other then trying to partially quote BS half truths and say it is RAW. Please Mighty BlowFly point out the error of my ways because I have used RAW to point out how the exact process plays out. Nothing you have tried to point out has any basis to stop an IC from not only outflanking with Wolf Scouts but also OBEL with them as well. Once again for those that cannot read a simple order of process per the BRB.

1. I declare that my Wolf Scouts and WGBL w/Saga of the Hunter are in reserve. The Scout USR and Infiltrate USR then confer the outflank rule to the Wolf Scouts. So the Wolf Scouts now have these rules Scout, Infiltrate, and outflank.

2. I then specify that the WGBL will be joining the Wolf Scouts. The Wolf Scouts lose Scout and Infiltrate. They do not lose outflank because the WGBL has outflank via Saga of the Hunter and outflank was conferred the moment they were placed into reserves.

Read the freaking rule, outflank is CONFERRED when the Wolf Scouts are placed into reserves. The only time from that point on that they can then lose outflank is if they are joined by an IC that does not have outflank. You and others believe that when they lose the Scout and Infiltrate USR, they also lose outflank but that is not RAW. Keeping the outflank rule is NOT conditional on keeping the Scout USR and Infiltrate USR. Yes GETTING the outflank rule is conditional on having Scout and Infiltrate, but not maintaining it.

Moving onto OBEL. The Wolf Scout rule specifically points out that when the Wolf Scout unit outflanks, they OBEL. The Wolf Scout UNIT. When an IC with Saga of the Hunter joins a Wolf Scout unit, he becomes part of that unit for all intents and purposes except close combat where he is treated as a separate unit.

Now, like I said Blowfly, point out where I am wrong. This is my entire argument based on RAW. Nos was more effective in pointing out my mistake regarding when outflank if conferred, however that only allowed me to research the reserve rules and reinforce the process in which units are placed in reserve and when IC join those units.

No. The FAQ says he can outflank with an outflanking unit. When an IC joins a unit with Infiltrate or Scouts USRs, that unit loses those abilities. So if the IC joins the Wolf Scouts they lose the ability to outflank; and per the FAQ, if the unit he joins cannot outflank, then neither can he.

Brother Ramses, the flaw that you're overlooking is:

1. Join the IC to the unit when you organize your reserves.
2. Now that the IC has joined the unit, if it had Scout it loses that rule according to the USR section.
3. When you go to declare that the combined unit is outflanking, you discover that they lost Outflank as part of losing Scout in step #2.

Being placed into reserved with the Scout rule doesn't confer Outflank. The possession of the Scout rule at all is what confers the ability to outflank, so there's no timing sequence for you to try to get around.

Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

The FAQ SAYS IT!!

At first it states scouts then it says unit.

And if you read the codex you will find large and diverse range of units that can outflank.

Among them are WOLF SCOUTS, WOLF SCOUTS the unit called WOLF SCOUTS oh and dont forget WOLF SCOUTS

solkan wrote:Brother Ramses, the flaw that you're overlooking is:

1. Join the IC to the unit when you organize your reserves.
2. Now that the IC has joined the unit, if it had Scout it loses that rule according to the USR section.
3. When you go to declare that the combined unit is outflanking, you discover that they lost Outflank as part of losing Scout in step #2.

Being placed into reserved with the Scout rule doesn't confer Outflank. The possession of the Scout rule at all is what confers the ability to outflank, so there's no timing sequence for you to try to get around.

Please read the rule for both Infiltrate and Scout. The last sentence in both says that the rules confer outflank when the unit is placed into reserves. Then go an read the reserves rule. You declare which units are in reserve AND then you specify if an IC is joining a unit. The timing sequence is right there as plain as day if you would just read the freaking rule. The fact that you think it is JUST the Scout USR that confers outflank and not also Infiltrate shows that you haven't even read the rules for either and just going off of what you have heard from others.

Because you must first tell your opponent if an IC is joining a unit, before you decide who is outflanking (See: BRB pg. 94). Once the IC joins them, they lose that ability because they no longer have infiltrate or scouts USRs (which gives them that ability).

Or we could just look at the faq that GW kindly supplied to us.

Ironhide wrote:Because you must first tell your opponent if an IC is joining a unit, before you decide who is outflanking (See: BRB pg. 94). Once the IC joins them, they lose that ability because they no longer have infiltrate or scouts USRs (which gives them that ability).

No you don't. You declare what units are in reserve first. It is right there on page 94. The following paragraph you specify if any IC are joining a unit.

So when you declare that the Wolf Scout are in reserve, RIGHT THEN AND THERE, both the Scout and Infiltrate USR CONFER outflank to the Wolf Scouts. The Wolf Scouts have Scout, Infitrate, and outflank.

When you specify that the IC with Saga of the Hunter is joining the Wolf Scouts they lose Scout and Infiltrate because the IC does not have those USR. However the Wolf Scouts do not lose outflank because the IC has it via Saga of the Hunter.

That follows all the RAW for Reserves, and IC in reserves joining a unit, and IC and unit special rules.

How can you keep arguing this. Between the actual rules and the faq. It is clear he can outflank and he can use BEL

Page 94 says
"First he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserves are joining a unit"

The "first" part makes it seem like that should happen. . . first.

And later on, on the same page, it states that you must say which units with infiltrate and/or scouts are outflanking. If the IC is with them, they no longer have either of those USRs.

kirsanth wrote:Page 94 says
"First he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserves are joining a unit"

The "first" part makes it seem like that should happen. . . first.

And read the paragraph right above that paragraph where it tells you to declare to your opponent what units are in reserve. Even the sentence you quoted above supports my claim with "...any of his independent characters left in reserves...". You had to declare prior that the IC was in reserves to be "left in reserves" and specify if he was joining a unit. How are you specifying that an IC is joining a unit in reserves before you declare that the IC and unit in question are even in reserves in the first place?

BR - you keep ignoring *first* and pretending it happens secnod.

Sorry, you are wrong on this. The FAQ provides permisison, however due to its "house rules " nature it really should have been an Errata to work.

in other words they *entirely* stuffed up when they created Hunter, and they should have changed the rules to reflect this. Why they did not do so, in a hard format at least, and copped out with a House Rule is anybody's guess - espeically given the VAST number of errata already

Ironhide wrote:And later on, on the same page, it states that you must say which units with infiltrate and/or scouts are outflanking. If the IC is with them, they no longer have either of those USRs.

Your right. They no longer have Scout or Infiltrate, but they still have outflank because it was conferred the moment they were placed into reserves. Once again, keeping outflank is not conditional on keeping Scout or Infiltrate.

The last line of the USR rule requires that they are in reserve with the USR in order to gain Outflank. As soon as the IC joins the unit they no longer meet this criteria, therefore they do not have Outflank.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - you keep ignoring *first* and pretending it happens secnod.

Sorry, you are wrong on this. The FAQ provides permisison, however due to its "house rules " nature it really should have been an Errata to work.

in other words they *entirely* stuffed up when they created Hunter, and they should have changed the rules to reflect this. Why they did not do so, in a hard format at least, and copped out with a House Rule is anybody's guess - espeically given the VAST number of errata already

Read the rule Nos. Explain to me how you can specify that an IC can join a unit in reserves if you have not declared that he and the unit are both in reserves. The rule is clear as day that tells you to declare what units are in reserve and then specify and IC "left in reserves" is joining a unit. I ask you, how could the IC be "left in reserves" if you had not declared him reserves beforehand?

Sorry BR, Nos is right.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Ironhide wrote:Because you must first tell your opponent if an IC is joining a unit, before you decide who is outflanking (See: BRB pg. 94). Once the IC joins them, they lose that ability because they no longer have infiltrate or scouts USRs (which gives them that ability).

No you don't. You declare what units are in reserve first. It is right there on page 94. The following paragraph you specify if any IC are joining a unit.

So when you declare that the Wolf Scout are in reserve, RIGHT THEN AND THERE, both the Scout and Infiltrate USR CONFER outflank to the Wolf Scouts. The Wolf Scouts have Scout, Infitrate, and outflank.

When you specify that the IC with Saga of the Hunter is joining the Wolf Scouts they lose Scout and Infiltrate because the IC does not have those USR. However the Wolf Scouts do not lose outflank because the IC has it via Saga of the Hunter.

That follows all the RAW for Reserves, and IC in reserves joining a unit, and IC and unit special rules.

But it doesn't say "This rule grants the unit to Outflank when they are placed in reserve." It says "... confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve (see page 94)" and "confers a special outflank move to units of scouts that are kept in reserve (see page 94)." See also page 94, "During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

The rule gives them the ability WHILE they are in reserve. It confers a special move to units that "are kept in reserve." If you take away the rule, then they no longer have anything conferring them the ability. You know, in the same way that abilities granted when IC's join units don't last beyond the lifespan of the granting IC.

BR - it has been explained to you now a number of times. You cling to the last line of the USR, and ignore that the USR is removed as soon as the unit has the IC hop in - which results in you NOT being able to declare Outflank as you no longer have the rule.

And you for some reason ignore the rules of games.

The FAQ has the exact question in it.

Hey guys!

Haven't we been kicking this ball back and forth for the past two pages? I dont think either side is ready to step down at the moment. I suggest we give this one a rest. ChocolateGork will have to go elsewhere in the meantime to get an unanimous answer that satisfies his own personal requirement.

G

Agreed. This is going nowhere fast.

Not quite, it just lists an apparently impossible requirement to be met.

If it COULD be met, however, it might be very helpful.

Yes i think i might

If you read the FAQ their is a strong possiblity that he should be able to outlfank with them (though GW bumbled the rules). There is however no rules which grant him the use of 'Behind Enemy Lines' which would only effect the scouts units and he is not a scout.

The FAQ certainly indicates that he's supposed to be able to outflank with them. Make of that what you will... this isn't going anywhere constructive.