As a 40k player who's never touched it, do tell me... why?

Aside from the aesthetic, the game is a more focused battle with lower numbers of minis per side. It's got a tighter, more complex rule system that requires more in-depth knowledge to play. You need to know how the elements of your army work together to even have a chance of winning. And in many instances, you need to know how to not allow your opponent to win by using their army's combos.

It's just a smarter game.


That's a start anyway.

I have played 40k for nearly 7 years non stop now and have just started playing warmachine. The game is awesome in a word. Stratagy is much more involved and mistakes are far less forgiving. Another thing that I really like is the speedy releases.

If you are a list builder like I am then you will really like the game because even the book encourages you to build the toughest baddest list you can think of.

Another thing that attracted me to the game were the models. The casts are way better than the GW metals and far easier to prep before painting.

If you have a group around that plays I would say give it a few dry runs, watch a few games, and then make your choice. Some people may not like the difficulty of playing against people that are seasoned in the game but I welcome it =)

1) More tactical depth: Let's be honest here: Warhammer is mostly about who can throw the most dice at the other guy. Warmachine, on the other hand, deals primarily with proper placement of units, judging charge ranges, and bringing the right amount of force to bear on each part of the opponent's list at the right time.

2) The player, not the list: Entangled rather heavily with point #1, Warmachine doesn't care too much about what list you bring. While synergy can be a vital part of many lists, I've seen players bring lists written by their opponents and win tournaments.

3) Faster games: Due to the caster kill win condition in every game (and the typically smaller model count), individual matches tend to be rather shorter than in 40k. I find that the average game only lasts an hour or so. Of course, an awful lot of the locals are used to the Hardcore format, so YMMV.

4) Privateer Listens: Unlike GW's now nonexistent forums, PP answers rules questions in a very timely fashion. They also have a firm commitment to never making any model or army obsolete or unusable, so there's no chance of buying into the equivalent of Squats. Their Press Gangers, while not Infernals, do an excellent job of answering questions on a local level, as well as organizing tournaments and leagues.

5) It's balanced: Let's face it: GW's game balance is a joke. When you have to ban certain models/lists from tournaments, you're doing something wrong. Warmachine, on the other hand, is essentially written from a tournament perspective, and has been heavily playtested to root out virtually all the broken components. That's not to say there aren't some extremely strong combos. However, all armies will have quite a few of those, and a balanced list can typically hold its own against anything you throw at it.

Winning warmachine is determined more by how you use the models you have than what is in your list.

My perception is that Warmachine is so broken, its balanced. Everybody has the opportunity to unleash that monster combo that destroys their opponents army in one go.

I love the "activate one unit, move shoot and charge" turn sequence. It lets me re-allocate force if I have a good result from a unit.

As compared to 40k, where the "all move, all shoot, all charge" results in things being out of position, or overkilling a unit because I might botch the rolls.

in short:

1. no rules without models.
2. made to be competative, where GW games are meant for casual play.
3. PP cares more then GW
4. Good forum base and contact with designers as opposed to GW
5. PP support on events, where GW pulls out of events.
6. Wider army composition

there are some negatives as well, but to me the bonuses outweight them heavily. i have been playing 40k since 1994 and stopped completly a year or so ago, focusing almost soley on Warmachine/Hordes.

studderingdave wrote:in short:

1. no rules without models.

Except if you want the Retribution Cavalry, or wanted to use Fennblades in MkI

2. made to be competative, where GW games are meant for casual play.

Definitely agree

3. PP cares more then GW

They put on a prettier face than GW. Look at the Tier lists and tell me if they care about the players or their wallets

4. Good forum base and contact with designers as opposed to GW

contact I agree with. Their forums are almost as bad as Warseer, IMO

5. PP support on events, where GW pulls out of events.

GW support 'Ardboyz and Adepticon pretty well

6. Wider army composition

Similar to 40k, the best lists get snagged from the net, and multiply. Molik Karn?

Sorry to point-by-point, but PP are not saints, and Warmachine is marketed as a money-maker as much as 40k.
All of the Legends units were better than the stuff before them. So they would sell. Only with the MkII re-alignment were most brought into check.

Gw might support Ardboyz and Adepticon well ... but that is still NE america. Speaking as one of the grunts putting on The Big Waaagh the support for us was a drop in the bucket compared to the money we shell out for it.

I don't know how PP supports its players with tournaments but I am sure it can't be any less. =)

Clay Williams wrote:Gw might support Ardboyz and Adepticon well ... but that is still NE america. Speaking as one of the grunts putting on The Big Waaagh the support for us was a drop in the bucket compared to the money we shell out for it.

I don't know how PP supports its players with tournaments but I am sure it can't be any less. =)

As far as I know, for leagues and tournaments outside of GenCon, the Press-ganger for the shop or event has to purchase the prize pack.
Which currently is just some medals.

I may be completely wrong. But we have a couple Press-gangers who post here who would know more.

At Adepticon, there were random give aways each round of character jacks for the Midnite Madness WM events.
I think the winner of night 2 got a signed Retribution book and an unreleased Alt Mage Hunter Assassin.

I would like to know what the Team Tourney guys got, 40k and WM.

PP is in it for the money, it's a company. If they don't make money, there is no WM/H, plain and simple. That being said they do seem to care more about their customers than GW does.

As to why you should play it, that would be up to you. If you're a fan of the fluff, PP's is very good and actually advances. WM and H are tied together nicely in the fluff and in game terms and it actually feels like playing out parrts of the fluff when you play a game. MK 2 fixed a LOT of the balance issues and streamlined the game nicely and with Hordes MK 2 officially out soon both games are playable against each other again. WM/H are fun, decently well balanced games that reward smart tactics and leave little room for mistakes.

So if any of that and the above posters reasons sound fun to you, give it a try. I play both 40k and WM/H and enjoy both systems for different reasons.

Thanatos73 wrote:So if any of that and the above posters reasons sound fun to you, give it a try. I play both 40k and WM/H and enjoy both systems for different reasons.

+1

I just tried my first game of WM/H (my everblight starter v a friends khador) last week.

In short, I had a blast and can't wait to play again.

I won't go into an anti-GW rant. I had mine in the mid/late nineties and tried switching to Warzone and other systems. Came back to 40k playing the end of 4th ed and now play 5th and enjoy it.

WM is just a different game, well written, and is *very* fun. Like most, you'll probably like both 40k and WM (and any other well made/produced game)

I feel like every time someone mentions GW games in here there is guaranteed to be a group of WH/H players who feel they need to justify their mystifying loyalty to a company who is out to make money and not inherently there to make them happy. PP does not care about you. GW does not care about you. They care about staying afloat and making a profit. If PP thought dumping their hardcore base in order to double their profits they would do so in a heartbeat. If any of you don't think the owners of PP wouldn't trade their places with the board members of GW you all are sadly mistaken.

Seriously, enjoy your game and some of you people need to stop trying to justify your own reasons for playing a game.

If you like PP games, awesome. Just stop mindlessly bashing a company at every possible opportunity. I mean even if you're trying to "hurt" GW you're not doing it. Like it or not but most of their customers and money flow don't know these forums even exist.

tallshortguy wrote:I feel like every time someone mentions GW games in here there is guaranteed to be a group of WH/H players who feel they need to justify their mystifying loyalty to a company who is out to make money and not inherently there to make them happy. PP does not care about you. GW does not care about you. They care about staying afloat and making a profit. If PP thought dumping their hardcore base in order to double their profits they would do so in a heartbeat. If any of you don't think the owners of PP wouldn't trade their places with the board members of GW you all are sadly mistaken.

Given how much 40k players tend to bash the company themselves, I'd say it's hardly out of place to join in.

More seriously, I'm not sure how brand loyalty is a bad thing. If a company puts out a good product, why is it bad to praise them? For instance, BWM puts out great cars. I love my mini. I'm glad I don't drive a Gremlin. Yes, BWM made a profit when they sold the car, and are really probably just looking out for their pocketbooks by having great customer service and a great community. Does the fact that they want to make a profit mean I should put them in the same boat as Goldman-Sachs as a company? Now, like I'll bitch at my dealer if there ends up being a recall for my car, I'll gladly criticise Privateer for any mistakes they make. However, barring one or two small goofs, Privateer has typically been careful enough not to do anything to alienate their customer base, unlike some game companies we can think of *cough*Rackham*cough*.

Also, we have a Tim Burton movie and you don't. Nya.

(warning: everything that follows is conjecture. I have no prior knowledge of anything henceforth described.)
You also have to consider how the game probably started. I very much doubt that a bunch of dudes got together and said "Hey, let's spontaneously cook up a tabletop minis game and make massive profit off it!" No, more likely some guy/group of dudes created the world of Warmachine, made a game out of it, and then decided to start a company and market their new creation. Unlike GW and the Warhammer games, Privateer Press hasn't been around quite as long. As a result I would imagine that much more of the original team of the creators of Warmachine are still involved. And it's also likely that they haven't yet grown as jaded as GW's higher-ups. In much the same way that some music stars care about their fans beyond the fact that they make a profit off of them, who's to say that the guys at PP couldn't possibly care about their fans? Just because they, like GW, are a tabletop miniatures company? And also of note is that, as mentioned above, they have been very careful not to anger their fans. They make a serious effort to keep the game balanced across the board, and they don't completely invalidate entire armies- *coughsquatscoughtraitorguardcoughmixedCSM/daemonscoughnonconventional CSMchapterscough5thEdandNecronscough2ndEdDEcodexcoughETC.* -ugh, I think I need some Ricola...

(Keep in mind, I'm not some PP fanboy. I play 40k and Fantasy too, and I still buy GW's minis. And GW's many failings are no secret to anybody here at Dakka, even if they've never heard of Warmachine before. It's entirely possible to like the games but dislike the company.)

Did a sizeable about of people *really* consider collecting squats?

Henners91 wrote:Did a sizeable about of people *really* consider collecting squats?

No. Its just an easy point to use to get indignant about. I know one guy out of about 20 that played back then and had Squats.

GW's biggest issue is that they became a publicly traded company.
Before that, they were still becoming something like what they are now.
But they still had a large amount of the design studio influencing things.

Give PP another 5-10 years, and a similar trend will appear, as the original creator, and minds behind the game move on.

skrulnik wrote:
Sorry to point-by-point, but PP are not saints, and Warmachine is marketed as a money-maker as much as 40k.
All of the Legends units were better than the stuff before them. So they would sell. Only with the MkII re-alignment were most brought into check.

Crazy talk regarding Legends being better than everything else (My trencher cannons would now like a word with you). My nationals lists last year contained only a few legends models, and at least as many Prime models as Legends models. Nothing in legends replaced the Journeyman, long gunners, storm guard, eiyrss, etc. Even caster wise I ran 2 Prime casters and 2 Apotheosis casters (Siege day 1, pHaley day 2, and eHaley & pStryker day 3).

tallshortguy wrote:IPP does not care about you. GW does not care about you.

Just tell me: which one of the two companies runs an active forum where players can contact the game designers themselves?

Endgame wrote:

skrulnik wrote:
Sorry to point-by-point, but PP are not saints, and Warmachine is marketed as a money-maker as much as 40k.
All of the Legends units were better than the stuff before them. So they would sell. Only with the MkII re-alignment were most brought into check.

Crazy talk regarding Legends being better than everything else (My trencher cannons would now like a word with you). My nationals lists last year contained only a few legends models, and at least as many Prime models as Legends models. Nothing in legends replaced the Journeyman, long gunners, storm guard, eiyrss, etc. Even caster wise I ran 2 Prime casters and 2 Apotheosis casters (Siege day 1, pHaley day 2, and eHaley & pStryker day 3).

And how many Cygnar lists did not have B13? Or Khador and Great Bears?

One bad model does not dis-prove my point. I made a generalization while forgetting something nobody takes.

There is much more that was awesome in Legends than was good, or average.
The character jacks in that book were killer.

What really struck me as interesting while reading the rule book is the way that methods to take advantage of the rules are actually highlighted in the book. An example is how a flame template has to target a model, but it points out that you can simply target a model out of range to get a bunch that are closer to you.

I also am really engaged by the fact that they release all the new army books very quickly in succession, and pre-release beta rules for public testing to break them before they make an official release. Additionally, if an imbalance is noticed, they quickly get on replacing it.

Yes, they are profit-driven, but I believe they think that if they cater to their customers, then they will make more money.

skrulnik wrote:
And how many Cygnar lists did not have B13? Or Khador and Great Bears?

One bad model does not dis-prove my point. I made a generalization while forgetting something nobody takes.

There is much more that was awesome in Legends than was good, or average.
The character jacks in that book were killer.

While only speaking for myself in my run at nationals, out of 6 lists (2 500, 2 750, and 2 1000) The Black 13th were in 4 of them. The Squire and Journeyman were in all 6. Storm Lances were in 4, Trenchers were in 4, Aiyana and Holt were in 6, the Piper was in 6, Anastasia DiBray and Gundrun the Wanderer were in 6. Beyond those models, I don't think I reused a whole lot between lists. Thats a pretty good spread of models between books I think, really only leaving out Apotheosis (Which I used casters from). IMO, there really wasn't classic Codex Creep in WM / Hordes in MKI. We'll see how MKII goes, but I suspect it will stay about the same.

As for the Character Jacks, well, Jacks were terrible in MKI. Outside of the odd defender with Siege, I don't think I used a single jack for about the last 2 years of MKI.

tallshortguy wrote:I feel like every time someone mentions GW games in here there is guaranteed to be a group of WH/H players who feel they need to justify their mystifying loyalty to a company who is out to make money and not inherently there to make them happy. PP does not care about you. GW does not care about you. They care about staying afloat and making a profit. If PP thought dumping their hardcore base in order to double their profits they would do so in a heartbeat. If any of you don't think the owners of PP wouldn't trade their places with the board members of GW you all are sadly mistaken.

Seriously, enjoy your game and some of you people need to stop trying to justify your own reasons for playing a game.

If you like PP games, awesome. Just stop mindlessly bashing a company at every possible opportunity. I mean even if you're trying to "hurt" GW you're not doing it. Like it or not but most of their customers and money flow don't know these forums even exist.

And every time WM/H players say something good about their games, you can guarantee a GW fanboi will come in here and get all unnecessarily defensive.

My take (w/o having collected a WM or Hordes army yet). YMMV.

40k
a bit more models per army
better for casual play
fan feedback not desired
great fluff
models are cutting edge
unnecessarily expensive

WM/H
a bit less models per army
better for competitive play
fan feedback not discouraged
so-so fluff
models are pretty nice
just as damn expensive

They're hugely different games so it's not really a matter of choosing one over the other. The trouble is you often have to chose because of the expense. PP also encourages the illusion that you have to chose because they are very consciously cultivating their identity as a company in contrast to GW. They're after disgruntled 40k players. It seems to me that PP and GW are both great, innovative companies that produce quality products. PP seems to work harder at it because they have to . . . for now. If they do GW-style business in twenty years I won't be disappointed. I'll be happy their lights are still on!

Manchu wrote:My take (w/o having collected a WM or Hordes army yet). YMMV.

40k
a bit more models per army
better for casual play (if you want to think less and shoot more)
fan feedback not desired in any way whatsoever, and your army may be at risk of being retconned... unless you play Ultramarines
great fluff
models are cutting-intensive with mold lines everywhere
unnecessarily expensive

WM/H
a bit less models per army
better for competitive play
fan feedback encouraged
Decent fluff (with a story that actually grows)
models are very nice, and overall have a metric f***ton less mold lines (but their faces aren't always the best...)
Slightly less expensive for a comparatively sized game

They're hugely different games so it's not really a matter of choosing one over the other. The trouble is you often have to choose because of the expense. PP also encourages the illusion that you have to choose because they are very consciously cultivating their identity as a company in contrast to GW. They're after disgruntled 40k players. It seems to me that PP and GW are both great, innovative companies that produce quality products. PP seems to work harder at it because they have to . . . for now. If they do GW-style business in twenty years I won't be disappointed. I'll be happy their lights are still on!

Fixed that for ya.

Henners91 wrote:As a 40k player who's never touched it, do tell me... why?

If your here asking then I would have to assume your curious about the game -or at least non-40k alternatives in general.
I say the best reason to play any game is to have fun so to be blunt, play it to see if its fun to you and after that because it is fun.
If a few small demo games go by and you feel the game isnt for you then at least you broadened your gaming scope a bit, maybe malifaux, FoW, or even warlord are more your thing.
If I had a local game store id try every game they had at least once, even 5ed 40k

Manchu wrote:just as damn expensive

Yup. That whole "its cheaper" thing is a myth. To round out a Warmachine army like you would a 40k or Fow army, you spend just as much.

You don't have to to play, but you will.

skrulnik wrote:

Manchu wrote:just as damn expensive

Yup. That whole "its cheaper" thing is a myth. To round out a Warmachine army like you would a 40k or Fow army, you spend just as much.

You don't have to to play, but you will.

In all fairness if you buy a 35 pt army and play it the cost isn't too bad. However if you want 100pts of models to build 35pt lists it gets quite expensive.
One of the best things I can say for pp is that every model I have ever bought for the game I can still use, the same cannot be said for many models I bought for 40k.

You can use every WM model competitively? Otherwise that's not so fair a comparison.

As someone who plays competitive Imperial Guard and Skaven, the cost is hardly close to have even 50 points of competitive WM vs either of those (50 will run you about $400 at most, and you can find product at 80% discount on webstores). I have worked out a really good 35 point Cryx army that will run me only $200 before discounts.

You cannot make a WHFB/40k army for $400 that is competitive.

Manchu wrote:You can use every WM model competitively? Otherwise that's not so fair a comparison.

Of course it's a fair comparison, I don't care how competitive the model is I can still use it. Many people including myself have bought models to use in 40K armies that are not allowed anymore.

Just to be clear, you're comparing how many points of IG to 35 of Cryx? Also how many models are in that IG army? How many models in the Cryx list? In fact, if you have them, can you just post both lists?


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whitekong wrote:

Manchu wrote:You can use every WM model competitively? Otherwise that's not so fair a comparison.

Of course it's a fair comparison, I don't care how competitive the model is I can still use it. Many people including myself have bought models to use in 40K armies that are not allowed anymore.

Not to be hostile, but which model? And, in that vein, where are the new Iron Kingdoms books? Or the old ones for that matter? Oh, that's right I have to pay full retail for pdfs.

Manchu wrote:You can use every WM model competitively? Otherwise that's not so fair a comparison.

Yes, actually. Barring the Kossites (who have never been competitive), I honestly can't think of a single model that's not worth taking (depending somewhat on local meta. YMMV).

Also, am I understanding you right in that you're complaining that Privateer is a big meanie because they won't give you their books for free?

The Iron Kingdom books? You mean the out of date RPG that's being republished with a new rules system, and has nothing to do with either Warmachine or Hordes, besides sharing a setting?

Manchu wrote:Not to be hostile, but which model?

I don't know about him, but I've got a couple dozen Alpha Legion cultists gathering dust.

That, or my Lost and the Damned list.

As a 40k player turned WM/H player, here's the reasons that I've made the switch in gaming systems:
$:

Warmachine/Hordes is cheaper. (50 pts WM/H versus 2k pts 40k). I don't know how you can even compare the two. In a 35-50 point list (the most common levels in my experience) you'll have between 15 and 25 models costing around $250-$400 with most army styles/models falling into the range. Most of the models are competitive, which reduces the 'waste' that new players encounter when they buy a model that 'looks cool' only to find out it's garbage on the tabletop.

40k by comparison has a much wider range of startup. You can get into a kitbashed Ork or Space Marine AoBR army for $450 or so at 2k points, but to start a brand new army from scratch using non-starter sets you're looking at $500 or extensive conversion work. To make a fully competitive mech list like IG you're looking at $700+ in addition to extensive conversion work for models that don't exist.

Game Design:

Warmachine is designed for competitive gaming. Every single rules dispute has been solvable within the main rulebook, with just a minute or two of research. Not at all true for 40k (Doom of Malantai?). In Warmachine, fluff and competitiveness are built into the system. In 40k, they seem to be mutually exclusive.

Warmachine will actually reward fluff lists with tangible, in-game benefits for building a list within certain restrictions. This keeps them competitive. Try playing a 40k Thousand Sons army. Yeah. No.

Intellectual Involvement:
WM/H is far more engaging from a unit combination and a punch-counterpunch standpoint. Certain aspects of 40k are like watching two guys take turns punching each other in the face until one falls down. WM/H is, on average, more like watching a boxing match with combinations thrown, setting up for the bone-crushing knockout. In WM/H, every unit (more or less) can hurt every other unit. In 40k, the guy with the Land Raider is never going to lose to the guy with no anti tank.

I still own/play 40k, and the game systems are distinctly different enough that they're not true substitutes for each other. If you have the opportunity, however, I would definitely try WM/H.

Fearspect wrote:As someone who plays competitive Imperial Guard and Skaven, the cost is hardly close to have even 50 points of competitive WM vs either of those (50 will run you about $400 at most, and you can find product at 80% discount on webstores). I have worked out a really good 35 point Cryx army that will run me only $200 before discounts.

You cannot make a WHFB/40k army for $400 that is competitive.

i agree with your competative quote. its alot cheaper to be competative with warmachine. i always say that WarmaHordes is made to be competative where GW games are made to be Casual.

I wouldn't say that closing gaping in the rules makes a game less casual. Probably even more so, as it keeps people from bickering about how rules interact.

I like that the models and units within a faction represent different flavors for that army.

The Protectorate of Menoth started out with Temple Flameguard, Holy Zealots,
Deliverers, Choir of Menoth and Knights Exemplar. Knights Exemplar weren't just an
upgrade of the Flameguard, they were an entirely different martial tradition within the
confines of the Protectorate. Zealots weren't merely troops armed with holy hand
grenades, they were the citizen minutemen made effective by the presence of priests.

Because of this, armies are very characterful beyond the decision of what weapons
you decided to give each model. A zealot has a hand grenade, period. So his
abilities are based around the fact that he will have that hand grenade. Knights Exemplar
are slower and more elite. Therefore, they have abilities that will make them stronger in
hand to hand combat if you try to pick them off at range.

Anyway, in-faction variety is my favorite part.


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Laughing Man wrote:I wouldn't say that closing gaping in the rules makes a game less casual. Probably even more so, as it keeps people from bickering about how rules interact.

Yup. You don't see very many house rule type of assumptions at events that I've been to.

Tarot wrote:That, or my Lost and the Damned list.

My genestealer cult and LATD concur...

i always say that WarmaHordes is made to be competative where GW games are made to be Casual.

To bad more of the GW player-base hasn't seemed to have figured that out...

Tarot wrote:The Iron Kingdom books? You mean the out of date RPG that's being republished with a new rules system, and has nothing to do with either Warmachine or Hordes, besides sharing a setting?

Out of date because Wizards gave up on 3.5? I think you'd better tell Paizo that d20 is out of date--although I doubt they will care given how much they make off of Pathfinder. And Iron Kingdoms has nothing to do with WM or Hordes? Actually, they share more than a setting. They share a publisher. PP gives up on certain product lines just like GW does. Also, no plans to re-release the Iron Kingdoms product line--which has been out of print for a long while now--have been announced.

Laughing Man wrote:Also, am I understanding you right in that you're complaining that Privateer is a big meanie because they won't give you their books for free?

No, what I'm complaining about is having to pay the price of a hardcover book for a PDF. Now there's a swift kick to the teeth that GW has yet to deliver to their customers.

Laughing Man wrote:I've got a couple dozen Alpha Legion cultists gathering dust.

You bought boxes of Chaos cultists from GW? Could you post pics of the packaging? And you can still field them as traitors from C: DH--which is available FOR FREE on GW's website. I know they're not competitive but then again neither are Kossites, apparently.

Tarot wrote:That, or my Lost and the Damned list.

That book was printed twenty years ago. If PP hasn't phased out some portion of their lines (like metal models, which they once pledge to keep forever because plastics were totally inferior) by 2020, I'll promise to shed a tear for your army. Until then, I think I'll stick to my opinion that PP and GW are both fine businesses.


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CT GAMER wrote:

studderingdave wrote:i always say that WarmaHordes is made to be competative where GW games are made to be Casual.

To bad more of the GW player-base hasn't seemed to have figured that out...

We definitely agree there. And this despite Jervis constantly telling us so.

Manchu wrote:PP gives up on certain product lines just like GW does. Also, no plans to re-release the Iron Kingdoms product line--which has been out of print for a long while now--have been announced.

Iron Kingdoms Role Play is being relaunched next year as a stand alone game (separate to D&D).

Manchu wrote:No, what I'm complaining about is having to pay the price of a hardcover book for a PDF. Now there's a swift kick to the teeth that GW has yet to deliver to their customers.

Hate to break it to you, but pretty much everyone does that for their eBooks, or close. Catalyst, for instance, only knocks a few bucks off theirs, although WW does about a third to half off.

EDIT: Actually, the hell are you bitching about? DriveThru sells the Privateer stuff at 25-40% off MSRP. Pretty much the exact same eBook discount everyone gives.

You bought boxes of Chaos cultists from GW?

Ayep, these ones, specifically. I can snap some pics of mine if you like, but I'm afraid the packaging got scrapped a while ago. That, and I'd have to go digging through the Bitz Box of the Damned to try to find them, and I'm pretty sure that's a sign of the apocalypse. Also, PP has yet to migrate the Kossites from Khador to Menoth.

That book was printed twenty years ago.

7, actually, if we're talking about the LatD list from the EoT campaign.

George Spiggott wrote:Iron Kingdoms Role Play is being relaunched next year as a stand alone game (separate to D&D).

Can you provide some reliable source for this? PP's website doesn't seem to have it up. I've read "not before 2011" rumors as well as "based on WM Mk2" but never saw the press release.


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Laughing Man wrote:Actually, the hell are you bitching about? DriveThru sells the Privateer stuff at 25-40% off MSRP. Pretty much the exact same eBook discount everyone gives.

Cheers for the update as this was not the case when I was scouring around for the actual books. Doesn't really change the point, however, that PP does give up on product lines same as GW.

Laughing Man wrote:7, actually, if we're talking about the LatD list from the EoT campaign.

Alright, seven years ago GW had been doing business for twenty eight years. We'll see you're still using all your same WM stuff in 2028. In the meantime, products that PP released seven years ago (including an entire line, which was actually the basis of the setting) have already been discontinued.

IIRC it was mentioned in one of those 'PP Insider' updates. It hasn't been announced on their main website yet AFAIK.


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Manchu wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:Actually, the hell are you bitching about? DriveThru sells the Privateer stuff at 25-40% off MSRP. Pretty much the exact same eBook discount everyone gives.

Cheers for the update as this was not the case when I was scouring around for the actual books. Doesn't really change the point, however, that PP does give up on product lines same as GW.

Laughing Man wrote:7, actually, if we're talking about the LatD list from the EoT campaign.

Alright, seven years ago GW had been doing business for twenty eight years. We'll see you're still using all your same WM stuff in 2028. In the meantime, products that PP released seven years ago (including an entire line, which was actually the basis of the setting) have already been discontinued.

This is all dependant upon PP actually dropping the IKRP line and not re-releasing it next year. If We're discussing lines GW have dropped over the last 28 years we may be some time.

That, and kind of ignores that Privateer releases a lot of new IK content every year in NQ. And that the IKRPG is the ONLY property that one could argue (feebly) that Privateer doesn't support.

George Spiggott wrote:]This is all dependant upon PP actually dropping the IKRP line and not re-releasing it next year.

Not at all. The point is that they used to offer it; now they don't. Just like all the disappointed Squat fans out there, the IKRPG players were screwed over after dropping their cash. And if you think that a (rumored) non-d20 game will sub in for a d20-based game, I'd recommend you talk to some DMs trying to get their groups playing 4E. This kind of thing happens with every company. There's no use pretending that PP is exempt or that GW is the worst.


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Laughing Man wrote:That, and kind of ignores that Privateer releases a lot of new IK content every year in NQ.

They release what amounts to fan fiction in every issue I've picked up this past year, not really gaming material.

Last year or so, they've released half a dozen side trek adventures, two 20 level classes, in depth histories of several cities and nations, stats for half a dozen or more jacks and beasts... Pretty nice fan fiction there.

I imagine that someday they will have to discontinue something to avoid
SKU overload. But they're aware of the problem of discontinuing rules for
models in a hobby where people amass quantities of models. In a way, GW
tries to keep models viable by not making army books obsolete with edition
changes.

Anyway, Manchu, none of that has happened to Warmachine itself yet. So the
argument still stands that models in Warmachine are still around from the
earliest edition of Warmachine. Saying that the company doesn't have
the 28 years or so of GW is a little silly because it's like trying to catch up
to an older sibling; it's not going to happen until the elder one dies. The question
is does PP's and WM's customer base like the direction the game is headed
enough to see an extended future of supporting the company, and many of us
would say yes.

PS: I don't want GW to die.

I hate being pigeon-holed into the role of PP-hater because that's not what I am. (I have an attempt at a Cygnar list up for comment right now for crying out loud!) But I also hate to see PP buffs (or GW buffs for that matter) throw around their anti-GW baggage to show off what grand old grognards they all are (not pointing fingers at folks in this thread, but we've all seen such things on Dakka at large). Mal, I wasn't saying that PP doesn't have GW's experience I'm saying that it's unfair to say PP is so fantastic because they've kept a merely seven-year-old model line current. That's just not so impressive of an achievement stacked against big bad GW.

The question is does PP's and WM's customer base like the direction the game is headed enough to see an extended future of supporting the company, and many of us would say yes.

I give it a tentative yes as well. That's not the question that I was addressing at all. I just wrote up a comparison between GW and PP that resulted in GW-bashing.

Laughing Man wrote:Last year or so, they've released half a dozen side trek adventures, two 20 level classes, in depth histories of several cities and nations, stats for half a dozen or more jacks and beasts... Pretty nice fan fiction there.

I've been picking them up or at least flipping through them since around January and haven't seen anything more than fan fiction.

Laughing Man wrote:I'm not sure how brand loyalty is a bad thing. If a company puts out a good product, why is it bad to praise them?

I thought this was a great point. Hence why I wrote:

Manchu wrote:It seems to me that PP and GW are both great, innovative companies that produce quality products. PP seems to work harder at it because they have to . . . for now. If they do GW-style business in twenty years I won't be disappointed. I'll be happy their lights are still on!

skrulnik wrote:

Manchu wrote:just as damn expensive

Yup. That whole "its cheaper" thing is a myth. To round out a Warmachine army like you would a 40k or Fow army, you spend just as much.

You don't have to to play, but you will.

Just look for bargains. If you keep it down to 35-50pts, you can build a pretty varied and competitive army for a couple of hundred bucks that will produce several lists.

I could never do that in the 1750-2000pt range in 40k. Never.

Sorry, Manchu. In the light of several companies, I do find a seven year track
record to be impressive.

Just think of:

Rackham
Starship Troopers
Warzone
Chronopia
VOR
Clan War

The list goes on.

Sure, PP's seven years are impressive compared to failures. And there have been an awful lot of amateurish shots in the dark. PP's founders pretty obviously followed GW in many respects and continue to define themselves in comparison and contrast to GW. I'm glad that they've learned from their elder, as you put it. It's made for a company that can actually compete--in an admittedly small way--with GW. PP is impressive in their own right but they've got very little on GW. Without TSR, there would never have been an Iron Kingdoms. Without Iron Kingdoms, there would have never been Privateer Press. But Privateer Press wouldn't even be as important or successful as Paizo (or even around!) without the great example and trailblazing of GW. .

Fearspect wrote:As someone who plays competitive Imperial Guard and Skaven, the cost is hardly close to have even 50 points of competitive WM vs either of those (50 will run you about $400 at most, and you can find product at 80% discount on webstores). I have worked out a really good 35 point Cryx army that will run me only $200 before discounts.

You cannot make a WHFB/40k army for $400 that is competitive.

Where the F*** are you shopping at and how can I get some of that?! The best discount I've found so far is off an eBay Store at about 30%...

Second. It would make breaking into WM and/or Hordes even more tempting.

I'd like to pop in and say I used to play 40k and frequented dakka a lot more because of it. Then I quit, because GW is garbage. Then a friend showed me Warmachine and it's lovely. I got rid of all those 40 hams and never looked back. Although I do still play fantasy but I can't buy anything new for that game, because unlike some in this thread, I definitely hope GW dies after making a series of fatal errors.

Manchu wrote:And there have been an awful lot of amateurish shots in the dark.

Any examples if you please?

See Mal's list above my second to last post.

Miswrote that there, 80% as in 20% off (from the MSRP stated on the PP website).

Nearly any ebay webstore offers this sorts of rates.

I just want to make things clear though: I am just starting into Warmachines and just wanted to state what I found impressive. I will not stop playing WHFB or 40K; I just find this new system impressive and a breath of fresh air.

Manchu wrote:Not at all. The point is that they used to offer it; now they don't. Just like all the disappointed Squat fans out there, the IKRPG players were screwed over after dropping their cash. And if you think that a (rumored) non-d20 game will sub in for a d20-based game, I'd recommend you talk to some DMs trying to get their groups playing 4E. This kind of thing happens with every company. There's no use pretending that PP is exempt or that GW is the worst.

It's still available as PDFs and has updates in NQ. The Squat comparison is invalid, an Inquisition comparison is fairer.

Fearspect wrote:Miswrote that there, 80% as in 20% off (from the MSRP stated on the PP website).

Nearly any ebay webstore offers this sorts of rates.

I just want to make things clear though: I am just starting into Warmachines and just wanted to state what I found impressive. I will not stop playing WHFB or 40K; I just find this new system impressive and a breath of fresh air.

Fething hell man, you nearly gave me a heart attack with that though. I just spent $230 bucks to properly start my Cryx army at a sweet 30% discount (that's pretty much all of my spending money for the entire month!) and then I read '80% discount on Warmachine' and my eyes bulged. I swear there was a vein throbbing in my forehead. In fact, there's a picture to accurately describe my expression when I first read your post:














There is no rage like nerdrage.

George Spiggott wrote:It's still available as PDFs and has updates in NQ.

The fact that I have a load of 3.5 stuff on my shelf doesn't mean that system's alive or supported. Also, I thought we straightened this out about NQ already? And you can still play Squats--as long as you've already got the army and can find someone else willing to play 2nd ed. with you. Kind of like if you wanted to do IKRPG . . .

Ok, people bitching about dropping lines:

It's because they probably stopped making money with it.

Regardless of all your squabbles, they are all companies. No matter how good they want support their player base, they can't if they aren't making money.

This especialy aplies on pen and paper RPG's, once everyone has your book, your sales are gone. (unless you make a new book offcourse) But my guess is that IKRPG didn't sell that well.

GW has made crap desicions(sp?) I agree, and I myself so far prefer Warmachine/hordes when it comes to the game itself. But I'm not putting PP on a bloody pedestal. Who elevated these guys to divine status?


Oh, and who the hell came up with the "wh is more casual" argument? These games are as casual as you make them. I've never played a tourny in any wargame so that pretty much makes all my experience "casual".



4e DND sucks btw.

Soladrin wrote:

Oh, and who the hell came up with the "wh is more casual" argument? These games are as casual as you make them. I've never played a tourny in any wargame so that pretty much makes all my experience "casual".

If you look at the fundamental rules sets, Warhammer 40k has a multitude of 'gray areas'. These are areas where two mutually exclusive scenarios can both be supported by different interpretations of the rules. The Deffrolla debacle over the past 18 months is a great example. With these gray areas, players have to find a gentlemanly consensus because there is no definitive answer in the rulebook. This is a more 'casual' structure because game mechanics cannot be managed at the margin, or in online gamer parlance 'the bleeding edge'; the need to compromise dilutes the combination of rules and mechanics to less than their full potential.

WM/Hordes, by dint of being much, much more crystal clear eliminates rule ambiguities that might otherwise require compromise. This allows a very good player to fully exploit a powerful combination, and doing so is within the philosophy of the game set laid out on Page 5.

Back to the original question

If you are interested in warmachine, the best way is to find your local Press Ganger. Press Gangers are pretty much volunteers for PP who run unoffical events and demos in order to teach new people etc
They dont get paid for it, but they get special brownie points they can trade in for stuff if they are deemed worthy
Plus they are all pretty awesome guys. (i know three of them ) Hopefully you have a good one locally.

I don't know how you would find them, probably best to either ask on PP forums or all your local gaming groups. Or even LGS. Hell even try GW stores, i know some of the employees of our GW store even play warmachine.

Im not entirely sure if they have Mk2 quick start rules yet, but they should have leaflets telling you a basic outline of every rule so you know enough to play (they usually come in the battlebox's) Also like a little booklet with a brief description / pictures of models of each faction.
And you get to play a BATTLEBOX game! which are Intense, Seriously! a 4 vs 4 model game is pretty insane in warmachine.

If your still interested, do it again! and swap teams.

The best thing is if you want to start playing is get the battlebox its like £30? with discounts or so? and battlebox's are already heavily discounted because you're pretty much getting your 'Warcaster' for free.

Start with a friend and have lots of battlebox games, Warjacks are extremely flexible rules wise and have more then 1 type of attack. You can Throw units at each other, or headbutt them, or slam them around (Headbutting is funky)

So just try it out

And for argument sake, i know alot of people say Warmachine is Chess to GW as checkers.
But GW is the chess and Warmachine is Shogi.

They are both chess, but warmachine is more complex.

Sure, Warhammer is like Chess... But depending on your army of choice, one player might get no Queens, and the other might get 5 of them...

MasterDRD wrote:Fething hell man, you nearly gave me a heart attack with that though. I just spent $230 bucks to properly start my Cryx army at a sweet 30% discount

Where did you find 30%?

eBay Store seller, Macpac51. He claims to have the best discounts on the web and so far I haven't seen anyone with a better one.

Fearspect wrote:

MasterDRD wrote:Fething hell man, you nearly gave me a heart attack with that though. I just spent $230 bucks to properly start my Cryx army at a sweet 30% discount

Where did you find 30%?

Dungeontrader sells warmachine and hordes at 30% off all the time. I have made many orders with them and have always had good service and fast shipping.

Because it's fun!


... and I'm out.

sourclams wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Oh, and who the hell came up with the "wh is more casual" argument? These games are as casual as you make them. I've never played a tourny in any wargame so that pretty much makes all my experience "casual".

If you look at the fundamental rules sets, Warhammer 40k has a multitude of 'gray areas'. These are areas where two mutually exclusive scenarios can both be supported by different interpretations of the rules. The Deffrolla debacle over the past 18 months is a great example. With these gray areas, players have to find a gentlemanly consensus because there is no definitive answer in the rulebook. This is a more 'casual' structure because game mechanics cannot be managed at the margin, or in online gamer parlance 'the bleeding edge'; the need to compromise dilutes the combination of rules and mechanics to less than their full potential.

WM/Hordes, by dint of being much, much more crystal clear eliminates rule ambiguities that might otherwise require compromise. This allows a very good player to fully exploit a powerful combination, and doing so is within the philosophy of the game set laid out on Page 5.

In my experience, the unclear ruling in Warhammer mostly just led to arguments that broke games and never ended that well. IMHO unclear rules are the bane of warhammer. I don't play a game so I can get a first degree in rule lawyering, I want to play a bloody game.

Soladrin wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Oh, and who the hell came up with the "wh is more casual" argument? These games are as casual as you make them. I've never played a tourny in any wargame so that pretty much makes all my experience "casual".

If you look at the fundamental rules sets, Warhammer 40k has a multitude of 'gray areas'. These are areas where two mutually exclusive scenarios can both be supported by different interpretations of the rules. The Deffrolla debacle over the past 18 months is a great example. With these gray areas, players have to find a gentlemanly consensus because there is no definitive answer in the rulebook. This is a more 'casual' structure because game mechanics cannot be managed at the margin, or in online gamer parlance 'the bleeding edge'; the need to compromise dilutes the combination of rules and mechanics to less than their full potential.

WM/Hordes, by dint of being much, much more crystal clear eliminates rule ambiguities that might otherwise require compromise. This allows a very good player to fully exploit a powerful combination, and doing so is within the philosophy of the game set laid out on Page 5.

In my experience, the unclear ruling in Warhammer mostly just led to arguments that broke games and never ended that well. IMHO unclear rules are the bane of warhammer. I don't play a game so I can get a first degree in rule lawyering, I want to play a bloody game.

QFmotherf***ingT. I can't honestly believe this has become a 'selling point' for Warhammer, or that people bring this up as some sort of plus. I've had some rules disputes in Warmachine, but they have always been clearly resolved within 5 minutes with no question towards the outcome. You can't imagine how refreshing it is to not have to argue some skewed interpretation of the rules because they're written poorly. For example, yesterday I finally encountered the infamous 'Doom of Malantai' dispute...

I find a ton of models/boxes for WM out there for 20, 30, 40 and even 50% off.

My lfgs offers a 20% discount on all pre-paid orders and they have a hard time keeping up with the current WM demand.

40k is a good game and good for casual play and semi-serious tournaments. It's got way to much division in it's ranks.

WM is a great game and good for any play, tournament or casual when compared to 40k. It's a smaller game but the division in it's ranks is very limited.

I'll keep my marines, but I will find most of my table top time committed to WM.

Manchu wrote:The fact that I have a load of 3.5 stuff on my shelf doesn't mean that system's alive or supported. Also, I thought we straightened this out about NQ already?

Yep, NQ publishes material for IKRPG, the line has not been dropped. The IKRPG 3.5 D&D rules material isn't being published. Changing editions isn't the same as dropping a line.

Manchu wrote:And you can still play Squats--as long as you've already got the army and can find someone else willing to play 2nd ed. with you. Kind of like if you wanted to do IKRPG . . .

Squat references still aren't relevant.

I think it comes down to affordability.

My retrubution army has 3 different 3-tier lists from different warcasters, and not much overlap of troops just the warjacks. total cost? less than $400 including all the tidbits of gaming stuff

I spent over 1k upgrading my orks when the new dex came out... its just way more expensive!

and if you are short on time, the model count is way lower enabling an all painted army much easier.

and the rules are really tight! and PP updated to mk2 after a lot of feedback, and they got the community involved to make sure the rules were streamlined and balanced

and their customer service rocks. I ordered a lot of stuff, was missing some pieces and they replaced all of them for free!

NaZ

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:The fact that I have a load of 3.5 stuff on my shelf doesn't mean that system's alive or supported. Also, I thought we straightened this out about NQ already?

Yep, NQ publishes material for IKRPG, the line has not been dropped. The IKRPG 3.5 D&D rules material isn't being published. Changing editions isn't the same as dropping a line.

Manchu wrote:And you can still play Squats--as long as you've already got the army and can find someone else willing to play 2nd ed. with you. Kind of like if you wanted to do IKRPG . . .

Squat references still aren't relevant.

And, Privateer Press is currently working on a new IKRPG based on their own in-house rules system, and Matt Wilson has stated that it will it should be intuitive to people who play Warmachine/Hordes.

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:The fact that I have a load of 3.5 stuff on my shelf doesn't mean that system's alive or supported. Also, I thought we straightened this out about NQ already?

Yep, NQ publishes material for IKRPG, the line has not been dropped. The IKRPG 3.5 D&D rules material isn't being published. Changing editions isn't the same as dropping a line.

Manchu wrote:And you can still play Squats--as long as you've already got the army and can find someone else willing to play 2nd ed. with you. Kind of like if you wanted to do IKRPG . . .

Squat references still aren't relevant.

Great arguments on both counts.

Manchu wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:The fact that I have a load of 3.5 stuff on my shelf doesn't mean that system's alive or supported. Also, I thought we straightened this out about NQ already?

Yep, NQ publishes material for IKRPG, the line has not been dropped. The IKRPG 3.5 D&D rules material isn't being published. Changing editions isn't the same as dropping a line.

Manchu wrote:And you can still play Squats--as long as you've already got the army and can find someone else willing to play 2nd ed. with you. Kind of like if you wanted to do IKRPG . . .

Squat references still aren't relevant.

Great arguments on both counts.

There's one other major difference between IKRPG and Squats too. IKRPG has (so far) not been updated to a new edition, so anyone playing that game is playing the 'up-to-date', latest version. 40K, the game Squats were a part of, is now on 5th Edition, and even in terms of fluff they've ben completely obliterated. If it weren't for photos and long memories, nobody who plays 40k today would know they ever existed.

I would totally play in a Squats RPG.

"Oh no, that Tyranid ate Kenny! You bastards!"

My LGS has a bit of a motto when comparing 40k to Warmachine.

"Warmachine isn't a replacement for Warhammer, it's an alternative."

Which I can agree with. 40k is still my main game, but if someone wants to play Warmachine I'll gladly oblige them.

There's not a lot of 40k going on locally, but I wish those who still play it at the local shop would either play smaller games or play less of it. It's annoying to see a 4x8 table taken up by two 40k players who need a 4x6 when the same table could accommodate four people playing two games of a rules set that works on a 4x4 space.

So that's another "why" for Warmachine. A full sized game plays on a smaller table. Needs less space.

i played my first game of 40k this past weekend after about 6-8 months of playing warmachine/hordes heavily (3-5 games a week) and while i had some good points, i really forgot how limiting the ruleset is compared to WarmaHordes.

examples:

1. I had a Deff Dred engaged with some guardsmen. The Guardsmen had no chance of hurting the Dred, but i was stuck there killing 4-5 guardsmen a round and getting very little done. In Warmachine, that Dred would be a jack that could trample out of that combat, kill a bunch of models and be useful elsewhere, instead of being bogged down.

2. I waqs shooting a Chimera with Lootas. i had a good roll and blew one up with a salvo of shooting, but i could prolly have shot and damaged (or destroyed) more transports if i could split my fire up. Taking this into warmachine, i have a unit of 10 winter guard riflemen shooting down a Cryx arc node, after 6 of them shot i knock out its arc node, so i take the other four and shoot something else, since the cryx jack is more or less useless.

these are just 2 striking things that came up while i was playing. Just loking at my dred being bogged down by something that couldnt hurt it yet it couldnt leave really got to me, but it took the more intense PP ruleset to show me what i was missing.

studderingdave wrote:1. I had a Deff Dred engaged with some guardsmen...

40k would me so much cooler of Dreadnoughts could perform power attacks.

studderingdave wrote:2. I waqs shooting a Chimera with Lootas...

I really don't understand why split fire isn't part of 40k, Lascannons shooting at Grots is silly. Lasguns firing at Landraiders is even more silly. Flames of War offers a nice compromise system, I wish 40k was more like Flames of War more than I wish it was like Warmachine.

I actually had a half-assed attempt at converting 40k armies to the Warmachine system, at one point. I really ought to give that another go some time...

Shouldn't be that hard really.

Thing's that would work as caster/lock:

Librarian
Techpriest
Inquisitor
Psyker
Hive Tyrant and such
Farseer
Cron lord
etc.

Jacks would be harder though, Necron's are doable with light's being destroyers and such.

George Spiggott wrote:

studderingdave wrote:1. I had a Deff Dred engaged with some guardsmen...

40k would me so much cooler of Dreadnoughts could perform power attacks.

studderingdave wrote:2. I waqs shooting a Chimera with Lootas...

I really don't understand why split fire isn't part of 40k, Lascannons shooting at Grots is silly. Lasguns firing at Landraiders is even more silly. Flames of War offers a nice compromise system, I wish 40k was more like Flames of War more than I wish it was like Warmachine.

Actually, splitting fire was part of 40K, back in 2nd Edition. Also, back in 2nd, you had the ability to have special/heavy weapons fire independently from their unit. So, a unit of guardsman with a Lascannon could be firing at one unit, while the Lascannon fired on a tank or walker or something. Just add those rules along with cover actually meaning something onto the pile of reasons I play Warmachine now instead of 40K.

Soladrin wrote:Shouldn't be that hard really.

Thing's that would work as caster/lock:

Librarian
Techpriest
Inquisitor
Psyker
Hive Tyrant and such
Farseer
Cron lord
etc.

Jacks would be harder though, Necron's are doable with light's being destroyers and such.

Wraithlord
Warwalkers
Dreadnoughts
Killa Kanz

I SWEET heavy jack would be the soul grinder. Or an imperial warhound titan. I'm just sayin'

As people have said before WM/H is an alternative game system not a replacement. Comparing WM/H to 40k is somewhat of a misnomer, mostly due to scale. Were I play the average WM/H battle is 35 points and 40k it's 1500, at that level WM/H is much more of a skirmish game as compared to a 1500 point 40k battle. At that level 40k has the feel of a cohesive army much more than WM/H does. Hell at 35 ponts I could quite happily field around 10 models and have a competitve force, but as I said comparison between the two systems is somewhat redundant.

Realistically the main difference between the systems is that WM/H lends itself to competitive play as the system has been developed to be so from the outset. Additional factors such as painted minitures not being required for most tournaments support this. 40k can be used for competitve play and for the most part it works quite well, however due to the fact that the system was not intended for this purpose from the start means that 40k is understandably going to lag behind somewhat in that respect.

The other major difference is that of the differing task resolution systems that the games use. WM/H using a 2d6 base for any attack/damage roll means averages are going to be more pronounced on a bell curve than 40k that uses a 1d6 base system. However this does link in with my first point as due to the fact that WM/H is smaller scale it has the opportunity to use a more granular task resolution system. Using said system with 40k would be impractical due to the larger scale of the game.

Last but not least is the rules support. I've been quite surprised by the typos and rules ambiguities that have cropped up in 40k as of late. It's never been perfect but for the most part it's usually just been a case poor wording or possible misinterpretation that can be resolved quickly. But lately there have been some issues that have needed a complete errata or the lke to resolve.
That's not to say that WM/H hasn't had it's fair share of rules related snafus, however on the whole PP are quicker to respond to such errors but GW are certainly getting better at this.

Now that I've gotten off my why play WM/H? For all my talk about it being better at competitive play it comes down to the fact that you have magically powered robots and hulking beasts tearing into each other while horrendously powerful named movers and shakers of the world toss devastating eldritch powers about the battlefield with gay abandon.

I'm really starting to get peeved every time someone points out that, in contrast to Warmachine being designed for competitive play, 40K is more for casual play, and yet they neglect to point out that a large part of this is that 40k's rules were written by drunken monkeys in a gak-flinging contest, and that the armies are all imbalanced as hell. Yes, Warmachine is designed to be competitive. So not being designed for tournament play is a valid excuse for poor rules writing/game balance which cause many arguments and rules disputes to pop up? I swear I've never, ever played a game of 40k above 1k points where there wasn't at least 1 rules dispute.

MasterDRD

that point really resonates with me. I've played orks since codex: armageddon and took the time/energy/money to update my orks when the new dex came out

what did I get for switching from trukks to battlewagons? 2 years of continous arguements about their function only to have it finally faq'd by GW, in such a way that there were MORE arguements about its use

Its just not fun to sit there and argue rules before, during, and after EVERY single game of 40k I play.

At least in warmachine the rules are clear and concise, even when you have to find aspects and put them together from different parts of the book you still get a clear answer. I have not found a single ambigous ruling in the games I've played that would result in a "dice off" or other disagreement resolution method.

so I'd rather play warmachine now

NaZ

I've played Orks since the BBB days of Third Edition, and one thing that really stands out to me is that Warmahordes have almost always got simultaneous releases. This means my army will always get something new, there's always a new project, there's always an adjustment to balance. It's brilliant. Compare that to a decade of stagnation with a threadbare codex and an incomplete model line for my orks, and there's no contest in my mind as to which company provides a better customer service. That's why I have no worries about starting a new Warmahordes army, compared to 40K and Fantasy, which I am consolidating and selling off, with no serious plans for any new projects.

Lokdown wrote:on the whole PP are quicker to respond to such errors but GW are certainly getting better at this.

I completely disagree with the gw part.

6 months to release the tyranid faq? Flip flopping on rules? Misleading a fan based faq? And that's better? Please.

GW has been terrible at rules, faq's and errata for years. It's inexcusable. I don't think the INAT helps this issue at all.


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MasterDRD wrote:I'm really starting to get peeved every time someone points out that, in contrast to Warmachine being designed for competitive play, 40K is more for casual play, and yet they neglect to point out that a large part of this is that 40k's rules were written by drunken monkeys in a gak-flinging contest, and that the armies are all imbalanced as hell. Yes, Warmachine is designed to be competitive. So not being designed for tournament play is a valid excuse for poor rules writing/game balance which cause many arguments and rules disputes to pop up? I swear I've never, ever played a game of 40k above 1k points where there wasn't at least 1 rules dispute.

I'm not going to disagree with you.

However, I would like to point out that with the current monkey's flinging the current monkey poo, all you have left is an expensive, time consuming hobby in 40k.

If it looks, feels, smells and tastes like poo, it's probably 40k and it's a good thing we didn't step in it.

imweasel wrote:

Lokdown wrote:on the whole PP are quicker to respond to such errors but GW are certainly getting better at this.

I completely disagree with the gw part.

6 months to release the tyranid faq? Flip flopping on rules? Misleading a fan based faq? And that's better? Please.

GW has been terrible at rules, faq's and errata for years. It's inexcusable. I don't think the INAT helps this issue at all.


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MasterDRD wrote:I'm really starting to get peeved every time someone points out that, in contrast to Warmachine being designed for competitive play, 40K is more for casual play, and yet they neglect to point out that a large part of this is that 40k's rules were written by drunken monkeys in a gak-flinging contest, and that the armies are all imbalanced as hell. Yes, Warmachine is designed to be competitive. So not being designed for tournament play is a valid excuse for poor rules writing/game balance which cause many arguments and rules disputes to pop up? I swear I've never, ever played a game of 40k above 1k points where there wasn't at least 1 rules dispute.

I'm not going to disagree with you.

However, I would like to point out that with the current monkey's flinging the current monkey poo, all you have left is an expensive, time consuming hobby in 40k.

If it looks, feels, smells and tastes like poo, it's probably 40k and it's a good thing we didn't step in it.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you just said...? So... yeah.

Anyway as to why you should play Warmachine, if you happen to go to my particular game store there's one more compelling reason to start... If you don't I will hunt you down and kill you.

As a 40k player, one thing that drew me to warmachine was the fact that nearly every roll is 2d6, and the total of both dice.

This means that you don't need to throw piles of dice, this means that attack and damage are closer to average without needing to throw more attacks/wounds, this means that warmachine's "boosting" is very effective while being fairly simple, this means that only one player at a time is throwing dice.

I also happen to like steampunk.

The only problem for me is finding players, there are only 3 warmachine players (that I have seen) in my area, and they don't go to my main store, so I am trying to test this game out on as many people as possible, to make sure its fun, but also to ask them if they think its fun, and if they think its fun, maybe I can drag them into the game with me.

To elaborate on the dice thing, in Warhammer of both flavors you end up tossing buckets and buckets of dice each turn, but in Warmachine the most dice you'll ever really need are 4 at a time. (maybe 5 with some funky combo, but I haven't seen it yet...)

5 dice needed regularly.

2+ additional die for Waepon master, +boost for charge, +1 different die for damage column on warjack.

I think we can make the generalization 'Warmachine - fewer than 10, Warhammer/40k - between 20 and 90'.

Highest I've ever pulled off is 6, with Xerxis' feat on a charging Molik Karn. I could probably do better (Butcher + Irusk comes to mind), but it requires at least 100 points, and is thus extremely rare.

Highest I've ever pulled off in 40k is 116 at one time, which is 29 Ork Boyz charging into the assault.

And since that only requires 300 points, it's not rare at all. Fewer dice but more normalized distribution is another reason I like WM more than 40k.

Why play Warmachine?...because you play with a pair...and...and...Page 5.

Warmachine is fast-paced and is built for competitive play. It's fun, and it's got some nice models.

And seriously, what's with the hate-on for 40k? There are tons and tons of rules disputes, broken armies, etc. but is it really that much of an issue? Sure, playing Necrons against the new BA is just dumb, things like Librarians in Termie-Armor making sweeping advances, and MEQ's running around getting the newest toys, but at the end of the day, yes, GW's game is made to be a hobby. Is that so bad?

For the rules thing, yes.

Sanctjud wrote:Why play Warmachine?...because you play with a pair...and...and...Page 5.

The MK1 Page 5 was way more brutal than the MK2 Page 5... Why oh why did they tone it down and give it an 'afterschool special' vibe to it? Save that for page 6 or whatever. I demand an errata that fixes Page 5! (a reprint would be nice too)

Cryonicleech wrote:

And seriously, what's with the hate-on for 40k? There are tons and tons of rules disputes, broken armies, etc. but is it really that much of an issue? Sure, playing Necrons against the new BA is just dumb, things like Librarians in Termie-Armor making sweeping advances, and MEQ's running around getting the newest toys, but at the end of the day, yes, GW's game is made to be a hobby. Is that so bad?

I haven't played 40k for a while, but the way you describe it (Broken armies, tons of rules disputes), those do sound like a big deal...

I introduced a friend who plays 40k to Warmachine yesterday, and he loved it. He said it was a great change of pace from 40k. Is he going to quit 40k? Of course not.

It comes down to: Do you like the models? Do you like the game? Do you like smaller battles? If so, then you'll probably like warmachine.

And one more thing, people keep saying that it's just as expensive as 40k. Yes, model for model it is, but you don't have to spend that much. My friends and I shopped around, built 35 point armies for about a hundred bucks, and have a blast.

Here's one more reason to love WarmaHordes. PP is less tight assed with the IP allowing projects like Vassal to exist and army builders that don't suck.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about Vassal is an online game engine that allows you to play WarmaHordes online. The latest updates included all of the models that had been released to date. I see this as being very awesome on a couple of fronts.

1.) I can play WarmaHordes against my friends who are not geographically located close enough to play frequently.
2.) I can play test different lists to test out whether or not combos are effective before I pony up the cash to pay for models. Sure you may have to buy a Forces of Warmachine/Hordes book or deck of Faction cards, but that's still cheaper than buying a whole army only to discover that it doesn't fit your play style very well.

There used to be a 40K module for Vassal, but it had to be pulled from the site as a result of a cease and desist notice from GW. GW is so tight with their IP it's not even funny. I had considered making an army builder like application for iPhone, only to be shot down by GW's legal department.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?24209-Vassal-WARMACHINE-4.0-Released

Speaking of iPhone army builders, iBodger is made of win and own. Even lists and displays your tier bonuses, along with how to get 'em.

Laughing Man wrote:Speaking of iPhone army builders, iBodger is made of win and own. Even lists and displays your tier bonuses, along with how to get 'em.

Too bad there isn't a version for the Blackberry...

Well, if you used a proper MP3 player you wouldn't have this problem, would you?

Cryonicleech wrote:Warmachine is fast-paced and is built for competitive play. It's fun, and it's got some nice models.

And seriously, what's with the hate-on for 40k? There are tons and tons of rules disputes, broken armies, etc. but is it really that much of an issue? Sure, playing Necrons against the new BA is just dumb, things like Librarians in Termie-Armor making sweeping advances, and MEQ's running around getting the newest toys, but at the end of the day, yes, GW's game is made to be a hobby. Is that so bad?

I don't know.

Why not ask the necron player while he is playing the BA player?

The need to ask that question should answer your own.

imweasel wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:Warmachine is fast-paced and is built for competitive play. It's fun, and it's got some nice models.

And seriously, what's with the hate-on for 40k? There are tons and tons of rules disputes, broken armies, etc. but is it really that much of an issue? Sure, playing Necrons against the new BA is just dumb, things like Librarians in Termie-Armor making sweeping advances, and MEQ's running around getting the newest toys, but at the end of the day, yes, GW's game is made to be a hobby. Is that so bad?

I don't know.

Why not ask the necron player while he is playing the BA player?

The need to ask that question should answer your own.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above. I started up a Necron army, the faction that got me into 40k, cooked up an interesting paint scheme for them, worked on a few models, but my motivation to continue working on them waned pretty fast, because when I played 40k I quickly ended up playing Chaos instead. Playing Necrons stopped being fun because frankly, they suck now. Why would I continue working on an army I can't have fun with? Maybe my interest will be rekindled when they get their new codex... if GW ever actually makes it.

That was just an example, really, none of my friends play Necrons or BA.

Necrons (and pretty much any old dex excluding DE) have it pretty rough right now, and while GW is certainly going to take their time writing the Necron (or hell, any Xeno) codices, what I'm saying is that 40k is unbalanced, so the knowledge of this should dictate that perhaps it's not the best game to play if you want to win with certain factions. Warmachine has that balance, and while it's certainly much better to play Mercs in WM than say, Daemonhunters in 40k, GW's mini line isn't bad, and while Warmachine is the more balanced game, I believe that 40k supports the hobbiyst more.

Cryonicleech wrote:and while Warmachine is the more balanced game, I believe that 40k supports the hobbiyst more.

That makes no sense whatsoever, especially considering the fact that if you wan't to learn how to paint your GW army you have to buy a (very) expensive magazine, or a (very) expensive alternative book, whille PP has pretty detailed painting guides on the "army" book itself...

ever flipped through a codex?? it has the same kind of paintingguides... (at least I think they are more or less of the same level)

Thing is, for the best painting advice you go to the interwebs. Don't want to search the web, grabb a dwarf. they always have some paintingadvice.(not always the best advice mind you..)

And how many Warmachine conversions have you seen?

Very few, due to the restrictions placed on recognizability of the models.

Those you do see are added details, no counts as, no swapping the base model for what you like the look of better.

Not a good or a bad thing, but it indicates the focus of the game over the hobby.

LordRavurion wrote:ever flipped through a codex?? it has the same kind of paintingguides... (at least I think they are more or less of the same level)

I don't have my codexes here with me, but I don't remember seeing any type of painting guide on either my Warhammer Darke Elves Army Book, or my Codex: Imperial guard... I might be getting forgetfull with my old age, so pardon me if I'm wrong.

LordRavurion wrote:
Don't want to search the web, grabb a dwarf. they always have some paintingadvice.(not always the best advice mind you..)

Exactly, if you wan't any type of decent advice you have to buy White Dwarf, wich isn't exactly cheap OR good value for money these days.

Also, if you aren't refering to painting guides, then what do you mean when you say that "40k supports the hobbiyst more"?




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skrulnik wrote:And how many Warmachine conversions have you seen?

Very few, due to the restrictions placed on recognizability of the models.

Those you do see are added details, no counts as, no swapping the base model for what you like the look of better.

Not a good or a bad thing, but it indicates the focus of the game over the hobby.

It doesn't indicate anything but the fact that for WH you have all the models that there are rules for, in 40k / WH you NEED to convert some stuff heavilly (or even scratch build them yourself), if you wan't to use some of the options available to you in the codex / army book.

Since when did you NEED to buy White Dwarf for painting guides? Make an account on GW's webbysite and voila presto, painting guides. What you're saying doesn't make any sense, since you never NEEDED to buy those expensive magazines or alternative books.

I've seen tons and tons of converted 40k armies, some of them even completely scratch-built/converted. The only Warmachine conversions I have so far are 2 converted Nightwretches and a converted Nightmare from the Battlegroup Slayer. It's not a negative, but it shows that at least in the player's mindset the game is predominant over the hobby aspect, IMHO.

So it's the choice between beautiful models with craptastic rules or not-so-bad models with great ruleset...

mazgier wrote:So it's the choice between beautiful models with craptastic rules or not-so-bad models with great ruleset...

Yep. Your version of the hobby is what drives you to one or the other.

Personally I play both.

Warmachine is taxing. A game is never a light exercise. I am thinking on my turn. And on my opponents.
Thinking about his abilities, mine, past experience, what I just read off of his cards, etc.

40k is simple in that respect. When my turn starts, I am in, and have lots to consider. But most is dictated by my list and setup.
The interactions are not as complex, so I do not need to work as hard to get the most out of my units.

My analogy would be this when comparing only the game. Not the hobbby/prep aspect or background.

40k is like fast food. It gets the job done, and its pretty tasty. But there is little effort involved to it.

Warmachine/Hordes is a meal you have cooked for yourself. Its good, but you had to put in a lot of work to get the end result. This relies as much on your skill as the raw ingredients.

skrulnik wrote:And how many Warmachine conversions have you seen?

Very few, due to the restrictions placed on recognizability of the models.

Those you do see are added details, no counts as, no swapping the base model for what you like the look of better.

Not a good or a bad thing, but it indicates the focus of the game over the hobby.

Define conversion?

I've seen quite a few reposes, extended spears on Centurions is common, additions to the Avatar to make it a little less top heavy, etc. In general, it seems that warbeasts and warjacks are the prime conversion targets. Overall, I'd say if you're really into converting, it seems that WM models and the conversion rules don't really stop you. If you were going to do a lame half attempt or try to proxy something out of place then you might have a problem.

2 cents I guess.

I am talking about building a new Haley because you dislike all the sculpts. Too bad, you are SOL, because you have to use the original model, and it has to be recognizable as such.
you are referring to minor stuff. Reposes, and part replacement are common, but Full-out re-sculpts or counts as are out.
Some of my favorite conversions have been counts as armies. Like the Genestealer Cult that used the Ork rules, or Squats using IG or SM.

In 40k, if I want an Imperial Guard officer, the only limiter I have is that he stands about 25-35mm tall, and has the weapons I buy for him. He doesn't even need to be human.
Warmachine, he can't even look similar to another model in the range, if it can cause confusion.

skrulnik wrote:I am talking about building a new Haley because you dislike all the sculpts. Too bad, you are SOL, because you have to use the original model, and it has to be recognizable as such.
you are referring to minor stuff. Reposes, and part replacement are common, but Full-out re-sculpts or counts as are out.
Some of my favorite conversions have been counts as armies. Like the Genestealer Cult that used the Ork rules, or Squats using IG or SM.

In 40k, if I want an Imperial Guard officer, the only limiter I have is that he stands about 25-35mm tall, and has the weapons I buy for him. He doesn't even need to be human.
Warmachine, he can't even look similar to another model in the range, if it can cause confusion.

Gotcha. Sure, counts as armies are out, and I have absolutely no problems with that. Can you imagine playing 50 points on 7 minute turns in Hardcore against a counts as army? No thanks!

I actually never understood the counts as mentality -- if you don't like the models that much, why did you start that army? It sucks to play against as an opponent because nothing is recognizable.

As for resculpts, I'm sure its OK as long as it looks like the desired model. Resculpt Caine running / leaning forward heavily and aiming to the right -- no problem, especially if you use some Caine bits like the torso and head. Resulpt Caine with a big beer belly and a rifle? That's just not Caine...

Well according to the PP conversion rules either of your examples is unacceptable.


Their rules state that you must replace a sword with a sword, not an axe, for example.

Granted it is up to the PG in charge if it is allowed, but if your opponent complains, you get booted unless you also have the original.
The example I remember was someone who headswapped Gorman, and gave him a tricorn hat. That was not allowed. Opponent said he thought it was a Gun Mage Captain.

Hardcore with any models is beyond me, so counts as wouldn't make a difference.
A chunk of my game time is probably me asking what their models are or verifying they are what I think.

I don't think there's any doubt that 40k models have more conversion options. If that's what you are looking for it's a great choice. I had a fully converted IG army, and when I was into modelling GW was great for that.

There are things both games do well. For example, if you are just starting out, and money is an issue, I don't think Warhammer is the way to go. A tournament size army can be bought fairly cheap for warmachine, but I can't say the same for 40k.

skrulnik wrote:
Granted it is up to the PG in charge if it is allowed, but if your opponent complains, you get booted unless you also have the original.
The example I remember was someone who headswapped Gorman, and gave him a tricorn hat. That was not allowed. Opponent said he thought it was a Gun Mage Captain.

Nope. The PG has final say, same as he does in tournament rules decicions. In this case, the PG ruled against it, but if the guy in the example had brought the conversion to me and I'd cleared it, any complainers would just have to suck it. The entire conversion issue was one I raised before applying to become a PG, since I like conversions as long as they actually resemble the same model (in context, I've never understood people who make beautiful classical hoplite armies and run them as a "counts-as" Wood Elves...play a historical, damnit) So unless you plan on entering big official US tournaments and don't bring a replacement, conversions are fairly safe. There have been tons of rather drastic conversions in NQ alone.

Somebody asked about prizes. PGs get free diploma "prices" and anybody can order coin prizes for regular tourneys. For the annual and book launch tourneys (Summer Rampage, Legends/Resurgence/Genesis) you can order special coin prizes, and the same applies to the Leagues. In addition, you can order PP trophies for bigger tourneys. The whole list is here:
http://privateerpress.com/community/organized-play/warmachine-and-hordes.

The NQ IK "fan fiction" thing I don't get. In the January issue, there was an article by Simon Berman (PP employee) about Blackwater. There was the Pendrake encounter series, which was written out of house, and possible could be called fan fiction, there was an article about the Templar with IK rules, and there was an article on the two main orders of monks in the IK, by Berman and Doug Seacat (PP's writer since IKRPG days), with new IKRPG rules. In the March issue, there was an 11-page adventure by the same authors as the previous Pendrake encounters and a 6-page article on Horgenhold by Andrew Linstrom, who wrote it based on Rhulic fluff they could not get into the Merc book. Another Pendrake Encounters by the same authors are before. May was sparse: only another Pendrake Encounters (same crew) - of course, this one introduced a new monster as a sneak peek from Zu. The recent July issue had an article on Tharn blood magic, adding to an earlier Seacat article on Circle magic in the IKRPG, by the same two regular "out of house" guys with material from Seacat and Berman.

It seems to me that the IKRPG gets a lot of attention. The guys I know who play it - I've never been able to stomach D&D 3.5 (or 3.0 or 4.0 for that matter) so I do not - use the NQ material a lot, and I like a lot of it - Pendrake encounters excepted, since so brief adventures are not even entertaining to read unless you want to use them - as a fluff source.