http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2

Skaven add rank bonus to their Ld after Steadfast kicks in. So they'll almost always have LD of 5+X, where X is the number of ranks.

Interesting resolution of the Incantation issue.

Swordmasters... Wow... talk about ridiculous unit. they continue to get their ASF and more than likely rerolls to hit. granted they will get slaughtered if attacked back.

The erratas didnt seem to change nearly as much as expected, at least not for my armies!

Slightly off topic and very geeky but I was reading the PDF on my iPhone 3G as work internet doesnt like the GW site. Anyway it gave me the option to read the PDF in iBooks. It took a while over the Edge network (rather than 3G or WiFi) but it's much more ledgeable and a kinda cool way to carry the PDFs about

Bother, Skaven Storm Banner changed to one use only. They didn't do that in the last FAQ.

So does this mean that Dogs of War are officially dead, since all of the referencing army books say to ignore them?

solkan wrote:So does this mean that Dogs of War are officially dead, since all of the referencing army books say to ignore them?

Youch!

Probably!

Same for Chaos Dwarfs too, I'd imagine...

And, most of the FAQs are 3 or 4 pages.

Skaven FAQ is at 7 pages.

I've always hated Skaven...

solkan wrote:So does this mean that Dogs of War are officially dead, since all of the referencing army books say to ignore them?

Fingers crossed.

xowainx wrote:

solkan wrote:So does this mean that Dogs of War are officially dead, since all of the referencing army books say to ignore them?

Fingers crossed.

For...?

Alpharius wrote:
And, most of the FAQs are 3 or 4 pages.

Skaven FAQ is at 7 pages.

I've always hated Skaven...

Harsh words Alpharius Pleased to see the Giant Rats will get an extra rank of attacks due to Wave of Rats rule. These chaps are now well worth fielding as a horde especially with Skweel Gnawtooth. Now all I need is some decent giant rat models (here's hoping Island of Blood serves some up).

Alpharius wrote:

xowainx wrote:

solkan wrote:So does this mean that Dogs of War are officially dead, since all of the referencing army books say to ignore them?

Fingers crossed.

For...?

Getting rid of them finally.

Flashman wrote:...Pleased to see the Giant Rats will get an extra rank of attacks due to Wave of Rats rule. These chaps are now well worth fielding as a horde especially with Skweel Gnawtooth. Now all I need is some decent giant rat models (here's hoping Island of Blood serves some up).

Wah?! I thought my 18 giant rats was plenty, now I'll need at least twice that ~C8> ~C8> ~C8>

Huh.

I can see getting rid of them as Allies, but as an entire army of their own?

That's just plain mean.

Buttlerthepug wrote:Swordmasters... Wow... talk about ridiculous unit. they continue to get their ASF and more than likely rerolls to hit. granted they will get slaughtered if attacked back.

The erratas didnt seem to change nearly as much as expected, at least not for my armies!

Ridiculous, but, as you said, still incredibly vulnerable and pricey (relatively).

They didn't really address the question of whether or not Dragon Armor protects a unit from the Fear effects of Flaming Attacks.

Book of Hoeth has effectively changed from a danger item to a safety item. get your free Irresistable forces. With the upgraded top end spells this one is going to get nasty, as you need three or four dice anyway its difficult not to cast them with Irresistable Force.

Say hello to the return of the unstoppable Purple Sun of Xereus.

Staff of Solidity is now a very nice way to spend 20pts.

Wow, they just straight-up changed stuff! For wood elves, the wildrider noble can take helm of the hunt now. Moonstone of the hidden ways can be used in the enemy movement phase and to teleport out of combat! In other words, they charge you, and at the end of their movement phase, you teleport away. Man, that just became a super-sneaky item to use!!!!

Edit: "Note that if a magic item is listed in both an army book and the
Warhammer rulebook, use the points value given in the army
book, with the rule printed in the Warhammer rulebook."

So no 5 point enchanted shield... also, clarifications to the book of secrets mean it's definitely not worth it to take it on a caster...

Jin wrote:

Buttlerthepug wrote:Swordmasters... Wow... talk about ridiculous unit. they continue to get their ASF and more than likely rerolls to hit. granted they will get slaughtered if attacked back.

The erratas didnt seem to change nearly as much as expected, at least not for my armies!

Ridiculous, but, as you said, still incredibly vulnerable and pricey (relatively).

They didn't really address the question of whether or not Dragon Armor protects a unit from the Fear effects of Flaming Attacks.

the horse might be immune to flaming attacks, but it doesnt know that so it is still afraid.

Q. Do Kairos Fateweaver’s heads count as different Wizards for the
purposes of miscasts and other rules? (p52)
A. Yes.


Huh?

Chaos Trolls lost The Will of Chaos for some reason.

@lixulana - there're arguments to be made on either side that you could "train" a horse to get used to fire. It's similar to the arguments as to why a regular cannonball can snuff out a guy in dragon armor, but a cannonball with some lighter fluid on it will be shrugged off entirely.

I don't care what the "logic" is behind it, but given that there now exists an easy to obtain 10 point magic item that gives a unit flaming attacks, it's a subtle, yet important question that could use clarification.

Interesting finds/Changes:

Empire Priests and Dwarf Runesmiths still give extra dispel dice.

Bloodskull pendant (WoC) can no longer be used in a challenge.

Slaan free dice count towards to power limit (I believe this means they still max out at 6 dice per spell. Does nothing against the 12 dice in the pool unlike rumors)

Dark Elf Hags that are Cauldron crew lose thier additional hand weapon.

Warshrines do not get thunderstomp (But Corpse Carts do?)

When you have +1 strength and double strength, the player who's turn it is decides the order (It's strength 10 on my turn, strength 9 on yours...)

Master of the Black arts power dice can only be used by the vamp that has the ability (No batteries)

Dragons/etc only count towards Lord choices, not Lord and Hero choices

Running down a large target no longer gives you a roll on the EotG table.

If a WoC Sorcerer or Sorcerer lord takes the Book of Secrets, they are only a level 1 wizard (I assume that means they lose all thier other spells, etc)

Dang, the work filter is blocking it. Could somebody put up a copy of the Ogres, Empire, and/or WoC pdfs?

Noisy_Marine wrote:Chaos Trolls lost The Will of Chaos for some reason.

Stupidity gives the unit immune to psychology now, so the reroll to panic is pointless.

Good GW didnt nerf my salamanders

Whoah the Steam Tank is T10 with a 1+ armor save! How is anything supposed to hurt that?

barlio wrote:Dang, the work filter is blocking it. Could somebody put up a copy of the Ogres, Empire, and/or WoC pdfs?

i've sent them to you in P.M.

Sweet, the Ring of Hotek's been nerfed.

Only affects if wizards are casting within 12" of the RoH, not targeting anything within 12" of it.

Or if the area of affect for the spell goes within 12" of the ring.

German FAQ reads that cast or targeted within 12" also.

Sigh. That it does. How much you wanna bet that they just copy-pasted from the old FAQ and didn't bother to check for consistency?

Jin wrote:Sweet, the Ring of Hotek's been nerfed.

Only affects if wizards are casting within 12" of the RoH, not targeting anything within 12" of it.

Page 102 – Ring of Hotek
Change to “Any Wizard (friend or foe) attempting to cast a
spell within 12" of the wearer must roll on the Miscast table on
any roll of a double, but will only cast a spell with irresistible
force on a roll of double 6.”

Q. Do area of effect spells miscast on a double if they affect any model
within 12" of the Ring of Hotek? (p102)
A. Yes.

That doesn't make any sense. So it only procs if you cast within 12" (and thus not when you are outside that range casting in) UNLESS you are using a bubble spell that affects something within the radius? It sounds like one of those answers is a mistake.

Edit: beaten!



But really T10 steamtanks, WTF?? If they were going to make changes like that the least they could do was make direwolves count for core or something.

heacy hitter wrote:

barlio wrote:Dang, the work filter is blocking it. Could somebody put up a copy of the Ogres, Empire, and/or WoC pdfs?

i've sent them to you in P.M.

You're a king among men.

Thanks

Actually, if you think about it....now Dark Elf armies can more reliably have a Magic Phase along with the Ring of Hotek. Eek.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Whoah the Steam Tank is T10 with a 1+ armor save! How is anything supposed to hurt that?

6s always wound

But when it was T6 most everything was wounding it on 6s anyway. This makes it much more difficult for infantry to beat it back once its hit combat especially since its unbreakable. This is a pretty radical change and for no real reason other than re-balancing when it didn't seem like they did that for other armies.

Yeah I dont really understand the change since thats not a FAQ issue, its changing its stats. It's also now a chariot.. can it be poisoned? It says "replace all of its special rules with the following profile".. so does magic affect it normally again? Thanks FAQ

Means great weapons are pretty much useless against it now.. ah well

Dwarf Oathstones seem quite a bit nicer now.

Ixquic wrote:But when it was T6 most everything was wounding it on 6s anyway. This makes it much more difficult for infantry to beat it back once its hit combat especially since its unbreakable. This is a pretty radical change and for no real reason other than re-balancing when it didn't seem like they did that for other armies.

Meh, say hello to my Screaming Bell, which has a nice little result on its damage table designed to affect anything T7 or higher

Flashman wrote:

Ixquic wrote:But when it was T6 most everything was wounding it on 6s anyway. This makes it much more difficult for infantry to beat it back once its hit combat especially since its unbreakable. This is a pretty radical change and for no real reason other than re-balancing when it didn't seem like they did that for other armies.

Meh, say hello to my Screaming Bell, which has a nice little result on its damage table designed to affect anything T7 or higher

I hope this happens every game against it.

Also my favorite answer:

Q. Can a Damsel in the second rank of a Lance formation cast magic
missiles through the model in front of her in the same way as, for
example, a bow-armed model could shoot? (p40)
A. Yes.

Of course, they make no mention of the FAQs, that you need to play, on the first page of their website.

My favorite from the Empire's FAQ is that Alfred's Casket of Sorcery allows the Empire player to control any Undead that are summoned from a spell (after it is stolen). T 10 on the Stank is cool as well.

What I don't get is of all the things to change (not just clear up questions like with invincible warmachines, actively make new statlines for) for this edition, T10 steamtank is the thing they decided needed it the most?

Casper wrote:Of course, they make no mention of the FAQs, that you need to play, on the first page of their website.

If you read the What's new today post, they are announcing them later. GW always has stuff on there site for a few hours before it is announced.

Dark Elf FAQ:
Page 43 – Eternal Hatred
Change “[...]Dark Elves may[...]” to [...]models with this
rule[...]” Ignore the last sentence

So Dark Elf mounts still get Eternal Hatred, I see.


EDIT ADDITION:
While it clarified that DE Assassins don't take up any slots, it didn't do the same for Harpies. I imagine you'll take it as precedence and say they also don't count toward Min Core?

So for lizardmen...

Page 53 – Kroxigors, Great Reach
Ignore this special rule.

Does this mean that kroxigors can't strike over the first rank of skinks? Kroxes gotta be up front?

It means that second rank always gets to attack anyways, so the rule is moot.

Also noticed that the Cauldron of Blood is T10 - presumably to make non-guess range cannon / ST sniping less effective?

No it's so you can actually hurt it.

Jin wrote:
While it clarified that DE Assassins don't take up any slots, it didn't do the same for Harpies. I imagine you'll take it as precedence and say they also don't count toward Min Core?

Actually, no need for precedence. The main rulebook already says that they don't.

And Dark Elf mounts do not get Eternal Hatred...The sentence removed is the one that says that mounts benefit from the rider's hatred. (And the mounts...At least Cold Ones...Don't have hatred.)

Well since work has blocked GW for some odd reason, what clarifications did they throw in about the doomwheel?

@skyth. They also changed the wording that models with Eternal Hatred gain the benefits. Unless they clarified that previously, the mounts count as part of the model, no?

It just is worded awkwardly.

Also, apparently the German version has that the RoH still works the same as it does now.

Jin wrote:It means that second rank always gets to attack anyways, so the rule is moot.

The 2nd rank in any unit just gets 1 attack though... kroxes have 3 attacks each.. so the rule is moot, and kroxes got nerfed?

Mattbranb wrote:Well since work has blocked GW for some odd reason, what clarifications did they throw in about the doomwheel?

It now uses the Random Movement rules is the big one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necros wrote:

Jin wrote:It means that second rank always gets to attack anyways, so the rule is moot.

The 2nd rank in any unit just gets 1 attack though... kroxes have 3 attacks each.. so the rule is moot, and kroxes got nerfed?

Monstrous Infantry gets up to 3 attacks each.

@ Necros - Krox are also Monstrous Infantry, so they get full attacks from second rank, IIRC.

EDIT: Dammit, ninja'd.

Necros wrote:

Jin wrote:It means that second rank always gets to attack anyways, so the rule is moot.

The 2nd rank in any unit just gets 1 attack though... kroxes have 3 attacks each.. so the rule is moot, and kroxes got nerfed?

Aren't they monstrous infantry and thus get 3 attacks in the second rank?

I thought monstrous infantry got "full attacks" from the second rank, not limited to 3?

Did anyone see a clarification of what troop selections that didn't count towards minimum core requirement do now? I'm thinking of things like hounds. Where do their points go towards now... does it count towards the 25%?

Doesn't really matter for me, but it's something I was wondering about.

RiTides wrote:I thought monstrous infantry got "full attacks" from the second rank, not limited to 3?

Nope, limited to 3.

Did anyone see a clarification of what troop selections that didn't count towards minimum core requirement do now? I'm thinking of things like hounds. Where do their points go towards now... does it count towards the 25%?

In the main rulebook, it explicitly says that they don't count towards any category.

Got it, thanks!

My monstrous infantry only have 3 attacks (as do most), I wonder if this is just to prevent extra attacks from things like frenzy, AHW, etc. for some units. I'll need to double check it, though, since that's not the wording I remember...

nevermind...

so basically dwarves are masters of anti-magic again

Some quite big c hanges, like Magic Bows now doing magic damage as well as Magic Arrows in the Wood Elf book - looks like GW listened to the number of people who went "wtf?!" over that one!

HOwever the Moonstone entry looks suspicously like the previous FAQ before it got hurriedly changed - you had the un-assaultable unit, which is quite nasty...

Ixquic wrote:

Jin wrote:Sweet, the Ring of Hotek's been nerfed.

Only affects if wizards are casting within 12" of the RoH, not targeting anything within 12" of it.

Page 102 – Ring of Hotek
Change to “Any Wizard (friend or foe) attempting to cast a
spell within 12" of the wearer must roll on the Miscast table on
any roll of a double, but will only cast a spell with irresistible
force on a roll of double 6.”

Q. Do area of effect spells miscast on a double if they affect any model
within 12" of the Ring of Hotek? (p102)
A. Yes.

That doesn't make any sense. So it only procs if you cast within 12" (and thus not when you are outside that range casting in) UNLESS you are using a bubble spell that affects something within the radius? It sounds like one of those answers is a mistake.

Edit: beaten!



But really T10 steamtanks, WTF?? If they were going to make changes like that the least they could do was make direwolves count for core or something.

The first part is an errata; a change to the actual text in the book. The second part is FAQ; an aswer to a common question. The part that makes the two make sense together is in the DE book on the page listed, in the unchanged text that isn't mentioned in the PDF.

Actually, apparently the German Erratas seem to list the RoH as having no effective change. I'm going to assume that they just didn't bother to edit things properly for the US release.

skyth wrote:

Slaan free dice count towards to power limit (I believe this means they still max out at 6 dice per spell. Does nothing against the 12 dice in the pool unlike rumors)

Hmmm i interpreted it to mean that the slann counts those 6 dice towards the twelve... I have to reread a few rules for clarification.

Kirasu wrote:so basically dwarves are masters of anti-magic again

Yeah with stealing power dice, a standard +2 to dispel plus bonuses from runes, and getting dispel dice without having to channel I don't see how you even get a magic phase without rolling IF against them.

Woot! Gotta love me my dwarves! What magic! You can do magic against me, but it's gonna hurt you

That said the FAQ's didn't change nearly as much stuff as I thought they woudl to integrate it into 8th...

Honestly I wish there was an army that could consistently shut down the entire shooting phase for most of the game just so I could play it against dwarves every day.

I did notice the Storm banner affects "all shooting which doesn't use BS" - so the non-magical part was taken out as far as needing a 4+ to work. Did anyone notice if the HPA or Doomwheel get Thunderstomp?

Mattbranb wrote:I did notice the Storm banner affects "all shooting which doesn't use BS" - so the non-magical part was taken out as far as needing a 4+ to work. Did anyone notice if the HPA or Doomwheel get Thunderstomp?

hell pit does, doomwheel does not. Storm banner is pretty meh now..

nosferatu1001 wrote:However the Moonstone entry looks suspicously like the previous FAQ before it got hurriedly changed - you had the un-assaultable unit, which is quite nasty...

Yeah, that's pretty much crazy! Probably a mistake... I definitely wouldn't use that until I was sure that's really what they meant...

For a lot of stuff they specifically changed things that older faqs allowed. For instance now Vampires can take dread night and a monster mount (and thus get access to a mundane lance) and Destroyer of Eternities no longer is able to use its super ability when getting an extra attack in the Tomb King magic phase. I would have to assume that this change is 100% intentional.

I wouldn't discount the Storm Banner - affects dwarf runes, tomb king catapults, magical wood elf shooting - just hurts Skaven warpstone shooting now, which can be good or bad depending on how your set up.

Steam Tanks - so what I'm reading is that it counts as a chariot now that can be affected by spells, poisoned, etc. etc.? Cool.

Tomb Kings - you guys got a big plus up there on your magic. Still works the same, except you get free power dice in your casting phase to dispel remains in play spells, as well as get your level bonuses to dispel. Too bad the catapults got nerfed alot.

I'm not sure what to make of all these clarifications - think there was some additional stuff they could have covered . . .

tomb king magic got destroyed.....

They dont get to add their caster level to invokes, meaning a level 4 wizard will just laugh and toss one dice at their one dice invokes and almost all dispell them, two dice invokes will be easier to dispell on two dice also.

ok cool I was scared my kroxboxes were gonna have to go. Although.... I have been thinking about separating them and doing a big horde of skinks, and 3 kroxes out on their own... guess I'll have to try em both ways and see what I like

ShivanAngel wrote:tomb king magic got destroyed.....

They dont get to add their caster level to invokes, meaning a level 4 wizard will just laugh and toss one dice at their one dice invokes and almost all dispell them, two dice invokes will be easier to dispell on two dice also.

What?? With no hero cap you can just spam priests. More than likely the opponent isn't going to be having more than 4-5 dispel dice while you have something like 10+ power dice that can't fail to go off and isn't capped at 12 since they don't count as power dice.

Mattbranb wrote:
Steam Tanks - so what I'm reading is that it counts as a chariot now that can be affected by spells, poisoned, etc. etc.? Cool.

Steam Tank is still as resistant to magic as it was before. I don't see anything that allows it immunity to poison any more.

I notice Spider Riders are practically worthless for their "Wall Crawler" rule now, only getting to ignore Forests and Obstacles.

Changing to "Always Strikes First, plus re-rolls" is pretty much what was expected for Bash 'Em Ladz. Doesn't really change much, barring that - if fighting Elves - it means Elves go first but Orcs are the only ones to re-roll now.

Points value thing means I need to tack 10pts back onto my Orc Warboss' Enchanted Shield. Only real change, most other common magic items weren't used.

Collar of Zorga seems to be slightly more effective now.

They FAQ'd away the Big 'Un thing, oddly enough. First you could have one type of Big 'Un for each unit type, now you can only have one again unless your army is lead by Gorbad. It doesn't matter much for me, but for a few players that'll be a noticeable change.

Oddly, Waaagh! doesn't confer "Always Strikes First" and re-roll failed to hits. Two interpretations, though I'm sure my store will stick with the former:
1) It counts as though "Bash 'Em Ladz" was cast, meaning ASF & Re-rolls as normal.
2) It was left out for a reason, and Waaagh! beats even ASF.

Minsc wrote:I notice Spider Riders are practically worthless for their "Wall Crawler" rule now, only getting to ignore Forests and Obstacles.

Changing to "Always Strikes First, plus re-rolls" is pretty much what was expected for Bash 'Em Ladz. Doesn't really change much, barring that - if fighting Elves - it means Elves go first but Orcs are the only ones to re-roll now.

Just a note - ASF vs ASF means they are striking simo.

I didn't notice what happens to war machines now when WAAAGH is cast. You can't leave them so how does that work?

skyth wrote:

Minsc wrote:I notice Spider Riders are practically worthless for their "Wall Crawler" rule now, only getting to ignore Forests and Obstacles.

Changing to "Always Strikes First, plus re-rolls" is pretty much what was expected for Bash 'Em Ladz. Doesn't really change much, barring that - if fighting Elves - it means Elves go first but Orcs are the only ones to re-roll now.

Just a note - ASF vs ASF means they are striking simo.

ASF +ASF=initiative order

ShivanAngel wrote:

skyth wrote:

Minsc wrote:I notice Spider Riders are practically worthless for their "Wall Crawler" rule now, only getting to ignore Forests and Obstacles.

Changing to "Always Strikes First, plus re-rolls" is pretty much what was expected for Bash 'Em Ladz. Doesn't really change much, barring that - if fighting Elves - it means Elves go first but Orcs are the only ones to re-roll now.

Just a note - ASF vs ASF means they are striking simo.

ASF +ASF=initiative order

That changed in the new edition.

skyth wrote:That changed in the new edition.

Which changed, it's now initiative order or now simo? If simultaneous, that's going to be nasty against Elves when you get it off (I say "when" because even a Level 3 Shaman can cast it on two dice with a 97% success rate, 100% with three).

Many of the Orc changes seem relatively minor. I'm upset that they didn't FAQ Fanatics, however. They still cause panic tests on Goblins if they die within 6": Makes you really need to hug a character with them at this point.

New panic rules are stupid in general. "Uh oh the stone thrower just fell apart I'M OUTA HERE THIS IS TOO MUCH!!!"

Heh, I like the idea of a Goblin massively over reacting to a fanatic going splat.
"Eggobbbbbbbb!NOOOOOOOO!"

If gateway goes off with a str 11+ a Vampire with the carstein ring can use it now. Also, if the hellcannon's crew is killed it has to roll on the monster reaction chart. I didn't expect to see those changes.

The difference being I could at least see someone panicking that their war machine was destroyed. A Fanatic? They're specifically designed kamikaze individuals. Hell, they're unreliable kamikaze individuals, who you should be glad keeled over a few yards away instead of plowing through you. Worse is if you Animosity-6 overtop a Fanatic.

"We took eight casualties Boss." "No loss." "The Fanatic's dead too." "RUN AWAY!"

EDIT: Also, I'm mixed on Tomb Kings becoming Wizards. On one hand, it gives a bonus to Dispel. On the other, someone might be able to force Miscasts onto them now (Lizardmen, for example).

Did i miss where a unit doesnt have to be unit strength five or higher to trigger a panic test on adjacent troops?

ShivanAngel wrote:Did i miss where a unit doesnt have to be unit strength five or higher to trigger a panic test on adjacent troops?

Unit Strength is essentially a dead concept.

Ixquic wrote:

Necros wrote:

Jin wrote:It means that second rank always gets to attack anyways, so the rule is moot.

The 2nd rank in any unit just gets 1 attack though... kroxes have 3 attacks each.. so the rule is moot, and kroxes got nerfed?

Aren't they monstrous infantry and thus get 3 attacks in the second rank?

What it does do is means you can't choose to target the Krox in close combat now, and have to kill most all of the Skinks first. (unless i missed something that says otherwise)

Minsc wrote:

skyth wrote:That changed in the new edition.

Which changed, it's now initiative order or now simo?

It was initiative order, now it's Simo.

Ixquic wrote:But when it was T6 most everything was wounding it on 6s anyway.

Not true at all actually. The major 'steam tank answers' are all affected by this. Stone throwers and bolt throwers now need 6s when before they needed 4s. And cannons need 4s when they previously needed 2s. Also, one of the more deadly combats for steam tanks was against characters with great weapons that started at either strength 5 or 6. With auto-hitting and wounding on 3s or 2s, followed by a mere 4+ or 5+ armor save, they went down really quick.

Ixquic wrote:This makes it much more difficult for infantry to beat it back once its hit combat especially since its unbreakable.

This is quite true. If the steam tank was not flank charged, its got a 50mm frontage. At best you could have a front rank with two attacks and one supporting rank for a total of 12 attacks auto-hitting. It doesn't care how magical and amazing your weapon is, you are going to end up with 2 wounds. If you aren't high strength, its going to pass those saves. Neither elite greatsowrd weilding units or hordes of strength 3 are good answers to a steam tank, In the case of the elites, you are going to get grinded or impacted to death before you even get to swing, and in the case of hordes you'll be eating a strength 2 no armor save steam gun to the face and a few grinds every turn.

Ixquic wrote:This is a pretty radical change and for no real reason other than re-balancing when it didn't seem like they did that for other armies.

As an empire player who loves the steam tank concept but was previously unhappy with its survivability, I am super glad they made the change. It wasn't really playable before in my opinion, and now it jumps right back into the role it should fill.

But I do have to agree with you. They saw an opportunity to 'address' the power level of a unit in an FAQ, and they went for it. Which was cool. But they didn't do that for every army book, and I understand how that could be kind of a bummer. there were a few other units that got power level adjustments, like the tomb kings altar, for example. But there are a lot more things out there that could use the attention that the steam tank got.

The only real way to counter Steam Tanks is things that wound on set amounts (Poison Wind Globadiers) now, be it mundane (See again Globadiers) or magical (Lore of Metal). Oh, wait, Lore of Metal doesn't hurt it any more as it lacks a strength value.

O&G have only one real "solution" to Steam Tanks now is Mork Wants Ya. That's... about it. And that's only D3 wounds (well, D6 / 2). Armies that lack S10 weapons are going to be stuck with feeding a Steadfast unit to the Tank, forming 5*however deep, and hoping to keep at least ten models long enough that they never break. On average, three player turns yields a best of around one wound stuck on the STank, which is definitely not enough to kill it in a reasonable time.

Oh yeah, there's stuff like "instant wound" items (such as Runefangs and Waaagh! Cleaver), but then you're buying a character practically as expensive as the STank who is only really worthwhile for destroying the thing (not that it's not fun watching a Savage Orc Warboss drop a STank in two player turns anyways).

I'll agree that STanks should be tough, and that the current one was much easier to wound than the old one in Chronicles (the one that had soft and hard hits, almost requiring you to hit it in the flank). However, bumping to T10 - even with 6's always wounding - is going to be pure heck for many armies.

First off, Stone throwers are Strength 9 under the hole. Second, you only need 5 models to be steadfast vs a Stank.

Stanks won't affect my beasts very much if I keep my Stonecrusher Mace, S10 against it, so 4's to wound.

skyth wrote:First off, Stone throwers are Strength 9 under the hole. Second, you only need 5 models to be steadfast vs a Stank.

You still need more ranks. 0 Ranks v 0 ranks = no Steadfast. Unless you meant five after the first five, which is what I meant by having at least ten models left in the unit.

And needing 5's to wound with a direct hit from a Stone Thrower (4's with Dwarves) isn't particularly great, considering a scatter of 2" is usually enough to take you off (and thus now 6's with no save modifier). Considering you multiply wounds after successfully wounding as well, you aren't going to do much with one. It's better than a BT, yes (-6 to the save is "No Armor Save" this edition, 5's to wound instead of 6, D6 instead of D3), but that's not much of a particular gain.

Did I read the Empire Mortar correctly in that it now does d3 wounds, or is that only for models under the hole?

Minsc wrote:

skyth wrote: Second, you only need 5 models to be steadfast vs a Stank.

You still need more ranks. 0 Ranks v 0 ranks = no Steadfast. Unless you meant five after the first five, which is what I meant by having at least ten models left in the unit.
.

5 models is 1 rank of 5+ models. 1 model is 0 ranks of 5+ models. If you have 5 models left at the end of a combat with a steamtank, then you have more ranks than the steamtank and are thus steadfast.

And needing 5's to wound with a direct hit from a Stone Thrower (4's with Dwarves) isn't particularly great, considering a scatter of 2" is usually enough to take you off (and thus now 6's with no save modifier). Considering you multiply wounds after successfully wounding as well, you aren't going to do much with one. It's better than a BT, yes (-6 to the save is "No Armor Save" this edition, 5's to wound instead of 6, D6 instead of D3), but that's not much of a particular gain.

A Stank is big enough to get hit with a 2" scatter. Not to mention that 3 Rock Lobbas are less points than a Stank and a Stank that takes a couple wounds is basically a terrain piece. Heck a unit of Black Orcs that charge a stank are likely to do 2 wounds to it, basically rendering it ineffective.

You are forgetting that a 300 point unit SHOULD BE hard to disable.

Minsc - you are confusing *ranks* with *rank bonus*

A rank is 5 models wide, and starts when you have 5 models wide. You may have no rank *bonus*, but Steadfast does not require that.

skyth wrote:Interesting finds/Changes:


Dragons/etc only count towards Lord choices, not Lord and Hero choices

Where did you get this one from?

DE FAQ. Stupidly that errata hasn't been made in every relevant FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Minsc - you are confusing *ranks* with *rank bonus*

A rank is 5 models wide, and starts when you have 5 models wide. You may have no rank *bonus*, but Steadfast does not require that.

Really? Do fighty skirmishing units (like dryads) count as having a rank at 5-wide, too (just no rank bonus)? This is interesting...

@Jin: It was in the WoC one as well.

@Buttlerthepug - good to know. I haven't gotten around to reading through all the FAQs yet, but the errata was noticeably absent in the HE FAQ.

Hmmm, thats odd... Will have to check that out.

Still no armour of any kind for Vlad Von Cartstein despite the fact he is blatantly wearing some.

RiTides wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Minsc - you are confusing *ranks* with *rank bonus*

A rank is 5 models wide, and starts when you have 5 models wide. You may have no rank *bonus*, but Steadfast does not require that.

Really? Do fighty skirmishing units (like dryads) count as having a rank at 5-wide, too (just no rank bonus)? This is interesting...

They have no ranks.

I would argue that now steam tanks are entirely vunerable to magic without a strength and other effects, based on two points in the empire FAQ:

1)Change the profile, equipment and special rules for the Steam
Tank to:

Nothing in the following part about immunity


2) Q. Is the Steam Tank destroyed by a Heroic Killing Blow? (p51)
A. Yes.


AFIK it was immune to KB type effects previously.



however the question about pit of shades raises an eyebrow and screams inconsistency.


I guess we'll have to wait for the next FAQ for the true answer.

but hopefully..... purple sunning Stanks might become an option?

Sirius42 wrote:I would argue that now steam tanks are entirely vunerable to magic without a strength and other effects, based on two points in the empire FAQ:

1)Change the profile, equipment and special rules for the Steam
Tank to:

Nothing in the following part about immunity


2) Q. Is the Steam Tank destroyed by a Heroic Killing Blow? (p51)
A. Yes.


AFIK it was immune to KB type effects previously.



however the question about pit of shades raises an eyebrow and screams inconsistency.


I guess we'll have to wait for the next FAQ for the true answer.

but hopefully..... purple sunning Stanks might become an option?

Sadly you're mistaken. For your interpretation to be correct, the new rules of the Steam Tank don't say how to generate steam points. Only the parts that were mentioned in the FAQ were changed. The first section means that the special rules mentioned under the statline got changed to the following. There's no inconsistency in the Steam Tank rules at all. I'm afraid you simply failed at reading comprehension.

Ixquic wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:tomb king magic got destroyed.....

They dont get to add their caster level to invokes, meaning a level 4 wizard will just laugh and toss one dice at their one dice invokes and almost all dispell them, two dice invokes will be easier to dispell on two dice also.

What?? With no hero cap you can just spam priests. More than likely the opponent isn't going to be having more than 4-5 dispel dice while you have something like 10+ power dice that can't fail to go off and isn't capped at 12 since they don't count as power dice.

Unlike the base Lores, you can't do damage with TK magic easily. You still have to have good units to win fights, which puts a limit on fielding casters.

Second, a lvl 4 wizard has crazy success rates dispelling TK spells on 1 die. One die stomps all mummy incantations, and one die from a lvl 4 beats 2d6 more than half the time. You'll get some magic off, but not much and mainly after your opponent runs dry on dispel dice.

skyth wrote:

RiTides wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Minsc - you are confusing *ranks* with *rank bonus*

A rank is 5 models wide, and starts when you have 5 models wide. You may have no rank *bonus*, but Steadfast does not require that.

Really? Do fighty skirmishing units (like dryads) count as having a rank at 5-wide, too (just no rank bonus)? This is interesting...

They have no ranks.

Makes sense. Well, I'll have the book tomorrow, so I can answer a lot of these questions (and verify the answers I'm getting here) finally!

Well bretonnians don't get stubborn it appears. it only says that they get a rank with 3 models.

And we know how useful rank bonuses are now...

Stubborn = having more ranks than your opponent. So if they get a rank with 3 models, they'll still get stubborn if they have more ranks than the opposing unit... right?

It's the same with monstrous infantry getting a rank with 3 models, I think.

I have the book, so I could answer some questions, I'll go through the posts and check out the questions and edit this with the answer.

Edit: Ok, I'll cite a paragraph.

..."Skirmishers always count as having zero ranks, and therefore cannot claim a rank bonus, be steadfast, or disorder an enemy with a flank or rear attack - they make supporting attacks as normal, however"...

I'm looking at the Ogre's Gut Magic changes - the errata refers to the "third paragraph" and "fifth paragraph", but it's not really clear if they are counting the 2 paragraphs of flavour text at the start of the page.

Assuming that they are counting from the "Casting Gut Magic" header onwards, these are the changes:

- Butchers and Slaughtermasters are no longer limited in how many dice they can throw at a single spell.
- The paragraph that noted that Butchers could have multiple persistent Gut Magic spells in play (unlike "Remain in Play" spells) has been deleted. I'm not sure if this means that Gut Magic has been restricted, or if the rules for Remains in Play spells were loosened in 8th...

Therion wrote:

Sirius42 wrote:I would argue that now steam tanks are entirely vunerable to magic without a strength and other effects, based on two points in the empire FAQ:

1)Change the profile, equipment and special rules for the Steam
Tank to:

Nothing in the following part about immunity


2) Q. Is the Steam Tank destroyed by a Heroic Killing Blow? (p51)
A. Yes.


AFIK it was immune to KB type effects previously.



however the question about pit of shades raises an eyebrow and screams inconsistency.


I guess we'll have to wait for the next FAQ for the true answer.

but hopefully..... purple sunning Stanks might become an option?

Sadly you're mistaken. For your interpretation to be correct, the new rules of the Steam Tank don't say how to generate steam points. Only the parts that were mentioned in the FAQ were changed. The first section means that the special rules mentioned under the statline got changed to the following. There's no inconsistency in the Steam Tank rules at all. I'm afraid you simply failed at reading comprehension.

Special Rules are clearly listed for the Steam Tank in the FAQ. Steam Points is listed. Immunity to Magic is not.

The amount of things not balanced in the FAQs are one thing, but the obvious things that weren't updated for 8th are especially surprising. Like 'Blood of Tzeentch' in the WoC book, which lets you reroll any 1 casting die that isn't a 1 ... One only assumes that this was to avoid negating miscasts, but now it in fact does just that!

Overall though, the mind boggles. TK magic effectively only getting better (on the defense) is the biggest kicker.

- Salvage

Steam tank t10... Yeah right. I know why they did it, but that certainly doesn't make it the right decision. Armies without cannons have a _really_ hard time getting any points from these let alone if empire has 2. If they were so worried about TLoS shooting affecting the tank, why not give it a shooting ward save or some other stuff.

I foresee coming to some other solution than t10 in my games (or even just keeping the old statline). Single model "Unkillable" units are not very good for the game.

I believe stubborn is only granted with 5 wide models, 3 for monsterous.

But then again i need to have a book in my hands to read and know exactly what i am talking about huh.

The change to T10 for the steam tank is moot.

A Strength 1 attack can now wound it with the to wound roll of a 6 since they change the 'To Wound' chart.

With massed 'volley fire' and the proliferation of units of 20 archers 1-2 wounds are all you need now to virtually incapacitate it.

Mahu wrote:
Special Rules are clearly listed for the Steam Tank in the FAQ. Steam Points is listed. Immunity to Magic is not.

The immunity to magic thing is not in the 'Special Rules' section...

Chaos lord - if you notice they have made all "big killy things" T10, so you can now kill an anvil or casket where before you could not.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:With massed 'volley fire' and the proliferation of units of 20 archers 1-2 wounds are all you need now to virtually incapacitate it.

First: You could always wound a STank with archers already. 6's to wound, just like now, but then you got +1 to hit.

Second: Death by arrows is still a horribly inefficient method, taking some 36 hits on average to slap a single wound. I know averages aren't exactly average, but even dropping it down to half eighteen hits / wound and needing about three-to-four wounds to truly gut a STank means at least around 54 hits, which at long range means around 108 shots minimal for most armies. Handgunners are slightly better off, "only" needing about 54 shots to slap that on, but again realize that's with each wound twice as likely as normal.

STanks wouldn't be as bad (you can still counter that by easily putting out a wound in one round of shooting and then slapping the others in hand-to-hand), if they couldn't field two in 2,500pt games.

What are these immortal wraiths everyone keeps mentioning?

Noisy_Marine wrote:What are these immortal wraiths everyone keeps mentioning?

There's a argument going on elsewhere that wraiths don't suffer wounds from crumbling.

(Again: )

Also regarding the t10 stank, I'll re-iterate: The problem isn't necessarily that the stank will kill a zillion enemy models which it may or may not do. The problem is that many armies have
a very, very low odds actually destorying the thing and thus getting points, unless one pours 1000+ pts worth of the right stuff on it. God forbid empire has 2 of them, altough the standard no double rares restriction or somesuch will probably make it way back from 7th where I play.

Whoah, I was told the stank had its T and W swapped, not both made 10, when I posted yesterday.

Still, it was the best thing in the empire book, and it remains so.
Its the 1+ aromur save that I always struggle with.

Alpharius wrote:Huh.

I can see getting rid of them as Allies, but as an entire army of their own?

That's just plain mean.

How many people do you know of that actually field a 100% Dogs of War army?

Those numbers are almost as low as Squat players and Chaos Dwarf players, last I saw.

Also regarding the t10 stank, I'll re-iterate: The problem isn't necessarily that the stank will kill a zillion enemy models which it may or may not do. The problem is that many armies have a very, very low odds actually destorying the thing and thus getting points, unless one pours 1000+ pts worth of the right stuff on it. God forbid empire has 2 of them, altough the standard no double rares restriction or somesuch will probably make it way back from 7th where I play.

I saw all of these problems in a game today. Two steam tanks are nigh unkillable and "regular" army troops and leaders, even ultra-elite ones, are virtually defenseless against it. Was that thing ever play tested for balance? Ridiculous toughness and number of wounds, impact and "grinding" hits, specific and knowable charge distance and it can shoot template weapons in turns it's also in combat. It's the most broken thing I've ever seen in my near 20 years of play WFB.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Whoah, I was told the stank had its T and W swapped, not both made 10, when I posted yesterday.

Still, it was the best thing in the empire book, and it remains so.
Its the 1+ aromur save that I always struggle with.

That's why everyone saying 'Pour tons of Low-S Missile fire in it and it'll go down!" is wrong.

First you have to get a 6 to wound, and then get through a 1+ Armor Save, oh, and then it still still has 9 wounds!

I figured the Stank would be as OP as people are saying, and that's why I'm keeping the Stonecrusher Mace. Combined with the 3+ Attacks and +3 Strength spell from Lore of the Beasts, I'm throwing out 7 S10 hits (8 if I use the Potion of Foolhardiness), allowing no armor because of S10.

4's to wound, I'll get 3.5 wounds, so either 3 or 4. That's STILL not fast enough, which is sad.

Now I dont know the rules to steam tanks but couldn't you just go lore of metal and totally destroy it?

Yeah...you could just "totally destroy it" dude, man, super bro cool.

------------

And no.

couldn't you just go lore of metal and totally destroy it?

Not every army has access to that magical "lore".

BrassScorpion wrote:

couldn't you just go lore of metal and totally destroy it?

Not every army has access to that magical "lore".

And one of the ones that have it use the steam tank and would just use another steam tank to kill it.

And you can't harm the Steam Tank with lore of metal anyways: Lore of Metal has no strength values any more.

Ok first off whats the with the hostilities guys? I'm fairly new to the fantasy scene I didn't know not everyone had access to lore of metal so could you just knock it off? And secondly the Steam tank does have an armor value does it not? Lore of metal wounds on the value of what the armor is for instance if it was 2+ armor save metal spells would wound it on a 2+ etc..

Nobody really wants to answer your questions when your trying to participate in a conversation you know nothing about.

-------------------------------

It looks as if just spamming Searing Doom on the Stank would do some damage pretty easily. Even one or two casts of the lower level could take a few wounds off, making it pretty much useless.

For starters, I do believe steam tanks are immune to all spells that DONT have a str value. So telling someone they dont know anything then turning around and not knowing what your talking about your self. *high five!*

Unless this rule was taken out in the FAQ, which Im pretty sure this was discussed and it wasnt...

its ok he just doesnt know. Also before giving him a hard time maybe you should look at the rules for the stank.

The stank is immune to magic that does not have a strength value. So it is immune to the lore of metal. The only spells that have a good chance of effecting it are the pendulum spell (it auto fails I tests) and the pumped up amber spear spell. Also the buff spells on your units do work (occums mind razor/transformation of kadon in particular)

*edit- ^^^ beat me to it

A quick look at the STank PDF says "Change the profile, equipment, and special rules to...."

I'm not seeing the old rules about it being immune to most spells. If special rules have been changed, and don't include the old magic immunities, why would they still apply?

Of course, I'm on 3 hours sleep and jetlagged from hell so I may be easily missing it.

It says change it on a specific page (I dont recall what page). However the rules for its magic immunities and other rules, are on a seperate page.

Buttlerthepug wrote:It says change it on a specific page (I dont recall what page). However the rules for its magic immunities and other rules, are on a seperate page.

That's how I read it too.

Buttlerthepug wrote:It says change it on a specific page (I dont recall what page). However the rules for its magic immunities and other rules, are on a seperate page.

Yep, just went back and looked at it. Special rules are in the armylist section, but the magic immunity is a paragraph on it's own back in the bestiary.

The reason we follow the "need a specific strength" is the same reason we still say a Steam Tank generates Steam Points: The FAQ says nothing about it. It touches in a few places on what you can do with the steam points, but saying "It's not in the FAQ it doesn't apply any more" is silly.

Not that I agree that the Steam Tank is immune to metal. It shouldn't be, but as the rules are right now it is. Heck, it's immune to most of the magic now that would have a reasonable chance to destroy it. Only unit buffs can really help, mainly by either increasing a unit's strength or attacks characteristics.

The upgunned amber spear is an excellent choice to affect it.

I've gotten a game with the T10 stank. I love it, and its instantly going in to my tourney list, and it will never be played against people I don't know unless they specifically ask me to "bring the heat".

I think it's going to be one of those "throw everything you have at it or ignore it" units. As a ratman, I'm confident I have enough options to have a go at it, but equally I could quite happily feed it (Ld 10, Stubborn) slaves until the battle is over.

Wow, reading this thread you'd almost thing GW had a pricey new Steam Tank model to sell.

Flashman wrote:I think it's going to be one of those "throw everything you have at it or ignore it" units. As a ratman, I'm confident I have enough options to have a go at it, but equally I could quite happily feed it (Ld 10, Stubborn) slaves until the battle is over.

Yep. It won't really be killable by skaven, without a really lucky warp lightning cannon shot, but if the skaven play a smart game, it'll be tarpitted pretty effortlessly by a block of clanrats or slaves next to the general. The steam gun could eventually free it from its furry prison, but it will most certainly be marginalized by goblins (that can pass stubborn) and skaven (with some ranks and a nearby general).

Beastmen, high elves, wood elves can take beast lore and get the cannon spell. Dwarves and empire laugh at it, bretonnia can take the amber spear and can put some unsaveable wounds on it with some luck from a trebuchet shot, warriors can try and dogpile it with marauders. Or barring that, charge it with some knights... They can potentially get some modified armor saves on it, and shrink its effectiveness down before they get ground to mush.

I'm certain that just about everyone can work around it or put a few wounds on it to shut down its effectiveness. Its just that you are forced to make sure you take those tools, because an untouched steam tank set loose on a non-horde is really, really bad news.

Shep wrote:

Flashman wrote:I think it's going to be one of those "throw everything you have at it or ignore it" units. As a ratman, I'm confident I have enough options to have a go at it, but equally I could quite happily feed it (Ld 10, Stubborn) slaves until the battle is over.

Yep. It won't really be killable by skaven...

Hmm, the Council of Thirteen take issue with this statement and recommend closer inspection of our infernal devices.

Doomwheel has the potential to send out 3 S10 Warp Lightning shots that each cause D6 wounds.

Jezzails may only wound on a 6, but they have -4 save modifier, meaning that 2/3 of wounds will cause damage.

The Bell causes D3 wounds on anything with T7 or higher on a result of 11-12 (fairly average roll for 3 dice), although irritatingly, it doesn't say these wounds can't be saved.

Infernal Bomb could conceivably be placed in a Steam Tanks path, causing S10 D3 wounds if it felt obliged to go over it. Brass Orb might well do something too, but not sure what happens as Steam Tank doesn't have an Initiative value

The Fell Blade might knock off a few chunks before the wielder perished

Ooh, here's a good one - Poison Wind Globes wound ANY TARGET on a 4+ with NO ARMOUR SAVES ALLOWED

In an similar vein, plague attacks (Plague Claw Catapult, Plague Magic) may only have S2, but will now wound on 6+ with NO ARMOUR SAVES ALLOWED

To be honest, there's so much in the Skaven inventory that could hurt a Steam Tank, I would leave it in the garage if I were an Empire player facing the warpstone munchers.

Chaoslord wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:What are these immortal wraiths everyone keeps mentioning?

There's a argument going on elsewhere that wraiths don't suffer wounds from crumbling.

(Again: )

They don't suffer wounds only if you're playing very RAW. Strictly as written, they're invulnerable from Crumbling. But I dont think anyone is going to play it that way.


As far as steam tanks, they're something you deal with. Much like any other HPOU (high powered over-used unit) out there.

Haha, flash... I totally forgot about the globadiers!

But don't talk about the potential strength 10 cannon hit. You are just as likely to misfire

I don't list tailor, so the poison wind mortar/globadier/grey seer with dreaded thirteenth/HPA/stormbanner army can just happily table me.

Not a lot of armies that this army won't table anyway, welcome to the demon slot, skaven.

Its not just about S10.. So many things in the skaven book cause multiple wounds with no armor saves. All you gotta do is roll 6s on those to cripple the steam tank. Its hard to kill, but after it takes 3 wounds its no longer a huge threat

Which is why the whining is so annoying - yes, you may not get many points off it, but take even 2 wounds off it and it then risks further damage in trying to do anything. You dont need to kill it to make it junk in terms of contributing 300 points to the enemy army.

Dreaded 13th has no S value and the stank isnt infantry, so that makes 2 reasons why it wont work against the stank...

Kirasu wrote:Its not just about S10.. So many things in the skaven book cause multiple wounds with no armor saves. All you gotta do is roll 6s on those to cripple the steam tank. Its hard to kill, but after it takes 3 wounds its no longer a huge threat

Yep. Let's be real here. The Steam Tank is not the most killy 'monster' in the game. Some stuff already caused tons more casualties and only gained some because of the thunderstomp rules. The Steam Tank only 'attacks' during the Empire turn and has some specific vulnerabilities due to being hit automatically. Additionally, it's not exaggerating to say that the Steam Tank becomes crippled already after the first two or three wounds. It turns from monster to tarpit after its been wounded. The boost to the toughness was necessary and makes it unique in the game.

They shouldn't be making changes like that if they aren't willing to do that to everyone. Other armies got hit with new edition changes that caused nerfs (fear causers, armies with bad core selections needing more now, skirmishers, units that use terrain, bad leadership armies, goblins panicking from war-machines and fanatics being destroyed, etc) but they didn't get that fixed. Of all the things that might have needed help the Steam Tank isn't on that list since the stuff that would screw it over at T6 (cannons, stone throwers, certain magic items) wounded it on a 2+ in 7th anyway which apparently wasn't a huge problem then. Units are getting wiped off the board in a turn in 8th with no real recourse so saying that the Steam Tank should be immune to this isn't really fair.

The Steam Tank might not make up its 300 point cost every game, but it will probably destroy something and then not be destroyed fully which is still a benefit. Lets also be honest if someone is using a Tank they will probably have two so they will focus fire on units. WIth 10 D3 impact hits a turn you can be sure they will be grinding down the big stuff that the Empire player doesn't want the rest of his army to deal with.

No, if you notice they DID change everyone: everyone classified as a warmachine got a stats change. This was needed as they have changed how warmachines operate.

So the s'tank, which is a warmachine, has the same T value as other comparable "warmachine" like elements such as casket / anvil etc.

You are also ignoring that terrain WILL have a bigger impact as you will see more of it about. The stank wont hav fun with a lot of the terrain rules thats for sure....

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, if you notice they DID change everyone: everyone classified as a warmachine got a stats change.

Really?! Scurries off to check Doomwheel on FAQ...

What doth thou speakith of? Not only did no other warmachine get its stats changed (all my orc warmachines are still T7), but as is warmachines are hard enough to kill now that everything is shot at and casted at the warmachines stats... but still gets saves from the crew (Crew cowers behind machine... machine gets damaged... crew takes an armor save for what apparently didnt hurt them but hurt their machine they hid behind... crew dies at machines damaged expense... does that make any sense?). So no, they didnt change everyones stats... they were quite selective in that matter...

To be fair, if what was quoted in an erlier thread was true, about them constantly keeping up and updated the FAQs... then hopefully this will change and even things out.

Also, isnt the steamtank the most expensive item in any book that can misfire?

Personally im not scared of the thing at all, it will be a nuisance, but its not unbeatable...

Actually im looking forward to any empire player who runs one, its a very easily dealt with 300 points.

Buttler - anything else that was *like* the steam tank - if you looked at my examples (sigh, why do i bother giving them...) you will notice the Casket is now T10 rather than being unkillable, the Anvil is also T10 rather than being unkillable, etc.

So they made the Stank, which is *considerably* tougher than a wood framed cannon, T10 as well - as it is consistent.

If you had read you would also see that again "toughness" is used to mean something slightly more complicated: here it is representing the difficulty in actually hitting a crewman in amongst that mass of metal but that if you DO hit a crewman then he kinda needs to see if his own armour will save him. Same as initiative doesnt always mean "hey im super fast!" - see 40k and Orks where they havea low I of 2 and "high" T4 but high WS. The 3 elements combined achieve the effect they want that the single stat alone doesnt show.

You have to look at how these all work in conjunction, same as any abstracted system each stat isnt there in isolation.

There's a difference between making something that was literally invincible due to the war-machine single profile rules change T10 and giving a unit T10 because maybe it would get hurt more easily. One is a fix to something that is game breaking (think Thorek that has no way of being destroyed short of a lucky Infernal Gateway) and another is something some guy thought would be more fair which is incredibly subjective. There's no change in the core rules that made a difference to how the Steam Tank worked with the exception of S2 being able to wound it now and I guess it can't autobreak units US 9 or smaller.

Also the misfire on the Steam Tank is meaningless. The use of that thing is to smash into units and crush them while bogging them down until that happens, not firing its peashooter cannon.

Here's a question on the steam tank - since it's no longer a warmachine, wouldn't you get half points for it if you knock it down to half wounds or less?

Anyone else think the WoC Book of Secrets FAQ is pretty weird. Regardless of the caster lvl, if they take it they become a Lvl 1 caster. Wouldn't make much sense then to give it to your Lvl 4 caster then.

I believe there are no partial points for anything now so it's still an effective points denial piece.

Ixquic - sorry but all you get from that is "I cant cope"

The reason for the change has been explained to you, you just dont accept it. Unfortunately that is irrelevant.

they have errata'd the Steamtank away from its 7th ed incarnation (too easy to kill) to something more like its 6th ed incarnation (fairly horrid....) to justify the 300 points it costs. As has been pointed out - EVERY army has a way to kill it, and you only need to get two wounds (something for example wood elf bowfire can EASILY do now it cannot be hidden so easily) before the empire player risks further damage even using it.

Anyone else has cheap, reliable *stubborn* troops that can hold it up for turns. No autobreak means a 60point unit of slaves with the general nearby will happily stick around, turn after turn.

As a points denial piece its kinda crap. If you intend to never shoot the cannon. Then my crap unit only needs to hold it up for 3-4 turns. When and if it breaks through I can hit it with whatever I please. If you deccide to not engage then you're playing 300pts down.
Which ill gladly do anyday of the week.

You don't need to beat the steam tank. Just mitigate it and beat the rest of the t3 models running around.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, if you notice they DID change everyone: everyone classified as a warmachine got a stats change. This was needed as they have changed how warmachines operate.

So the s'tank, which is a warmachine, has the same T value as other comparable "warmachine" like elements such as casket / anvil etc.

You are also ignoring that terrain WILL have a bigger impact as you will see more of it about. The stank wont hav fun with a lot of the terrain rules thats for sure....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Buttler - anything else that was *like* the steam tank - if you looked at my examples (sigh, why do i bother giving them...) you will notice the Casket is now T10 rather than being unkillable, the Anvil is also T10 rather than being unkillable, etc.

So they made the Stank, which is *considerably* tougher than a wood framed cannon, T10 as well - as it is consistent.

If you had read you would also see that again "toughness" is used to mean something slightly more complicated: here it is representing the difficulty in actually hitting a crewman in amongst that mass of metal but that if you DO hit a crewman then he kinda needs to see if his own armour will save him. Same as initiative doesnt always mean "hey im super fast!" - see 40k and Orks where they havea low I of 2 and "high" T4 but high WS. The 3 elements combined achieve the effect they want that the single stat alone doesnt show.

You have to look at how these all work in conjunction, same as any abstracted system each stat isnt there in isolation.

Nosferatu, I can understand where your comming at, and I agree, Im merely saying that the way they describe it in the book doesnt make sense.
If you refer back to your first post I commented towards... you didnt say anything else that was *like* the steam tank. You said everything classified as a a warmachine, got its stats changed.
I understand where you are comming from and agree though It just seems wierd that they boost some armies but not others. Granted it is killable, and stopable, its just fairly difficult to do so!

You underlined the first sentence, and missed the second whcih clarified what I meant.

A 20 ton piece of stonking great metal IS comparable to an anvil or a casket, and certainly tougher than a cannon.

they have simply been consistent: there are NO "un woundable" models any longer.

I agree, as said in my last post. It is very comparable, and makes sense. Thats why I have yet to post exclaiming the Steam Tank as unkillable. Difficult to kill? Yeah, especially for some armies more than others. But thats part of the game.

I guess I took it a bit over what I meant in my first post @ you. Guess I need to stop posting at 6 in the morning when Im half asleep and dont know what the feth Im typing!

From wh-forum: Rumor has it that the errata/faq-documents will be actually updated in a timely manner, as there certainly is some issues with them currently (in addition to publishing the main rules faq presumably). Same rumours also indicated that the stank will not be immune to non-str magic anymore when the erratas will be "fixed". Dunno if the t10 stays untouched, but at least it's pretty sensible that lore of _metal_ would affect the thing after all.

Well not really, as large amounts of iron in both Fantasy and, well, anything that deals with magic tends to nullify magic - and that is what the stank is made of!

They are unlikely to update *too* often, as it acts as a barrier to entry and to continued play - for example monthly updates would just get annoying, having to print off 3 pages to see if theyve changed anything....

Originally thought from the initial reading that the Steam Tank would lose the immunity to magic - however after reading the FAQ and the army book some more, I would have to agree that it keeps some of it's rules. Its classified as a chariot now (which doesn't really matter I think), but I can understand the change in toughness.

Of course, you should be able to poison it now that its a chariot right?

Plus I think alot of folks are bringing up good points on it that it will be extremely hard for it to break units anymore, at least for a couple turns. Still pretty nasty, but with no more autobreaking from terror and steadfast rules, I think it got toned down a bit. Still are going to need 6s to wound the sucker, but its a pretty big point sink too (less warmachines for Empire to take).

Has anyone else heard of a second errata/FAQ they are supposed to be putting out in a couple weeks for 8th edition in general?

No immunity to poison any longer, whcih is handy - my skink would love it

given *everything* can wound it the basic 3D6 S1 no AS spell for Nurgle is horrific - on an average roll it takes two wounds off the stank, for a cheap spell to cast.

yeah with 6's being able to wound, there are A LOT of spells and what not that only do S1 or S2 hits but dont allow armor saves, will be interesting.

The nurgle stonethrower spell is horribly nasty as well now with no scatter...

It still scatters.

Grr, meant no "guess"...you get to place it exactly where you want it, and have a 1/3rd chance of then hitting that spot.

Posting with with mahoooosive headache = mistakes..

I'm always amused that a .333 chance of a template hitting is treated like an onslaught of laser guided bombs. However, anything with a BS of 3 means they'll never hit anything.

ZF-

well considering that a BS 3 is hitting on 4's and 90% of the time you have at least one modifier, yeah they arent that great unless you can take them in bulk.....

Stupid jezzails and there BS3, they are snipers!

BS3 is usually 5's due to long range, meaning you have *at best* a 1/3rd chance.

Whereas with scattering blasts you have, depending on the unit size, 1/3rd plus {1,1}, {1,2},.... scatter results can still net you some hits, especially with no partials. Oh, and no modifiers due to cover, etc.

It is quite a lot better than it used to be!

I keep forgetting that no partial thing...

So used to playing skaven....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ixquic - sorry but all you get from that is "I cant cope"

The reason for the change has been explained to you, you just dont accept it. Unfortunately that is irrelevant.

they have errata'd the Steamtank away from its 7th ed incarnation (too easy to kill) to something more like its 6th ed incarnation (fairly horrid....) to justify the 300 points it costs. As has been pointed out - EVERY army has a way to kill it, and you only need to get two wounds (something for example wood elf bowfire can EASILY do now it cannot be hidden so easily) before the empire player risks further damage even using it.

Anyone else has cheap, reliable *stubborn* troops that can hold it up for turns. No autobreak means a 60point unit of slaves with the general nearby will happily stick around, turn after turn.

Don't really wanna get sucked into the debate (I don't have any regular Empire opponents) but Wood elf bowfire can, in no way, wound it easily. You need 36 hits to cause 1 single wound. Essentially i'd need to shoot every bow in my 2000pt army at it for 3 turns to (statistically) get the 3 wounds needed to "neutralise" it. Really the only reliable choices wood elves have is to either ignore it or keep terrain in between it and anything valuable. (okay, we could try to use the spirit sword, but that needs a lord choice, and is as risky to you as it is to the stank).

Just my tuppence, anyway.

Cast amber spear from beast lore with a level 4. Level 4s are hard to stop.

In my Dwarf armybook it says "Dwarf Lords (but not Thanes) are of Royal Blood" but it says in the FAQ that I should change it too.... exactly that!

Are there some older versions still around with some misprint? Bought mine like 2-3 years ago >_>

Shep wrote:Cast amber spear from beast lore with a level 4. Level 4s are hard to stop.

If i'm taking a Spellweaver i'd much prefer to take lore of life.

Talking of magic, can the stank be affected by hexes, or is it just damage spells?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Whereas with scattering blasts you have, depending on the unit size, 1/3rd plus {1,1}, {1,2},.... scatter results can still net you some hits, especially with no partials. Oh, and no modifiers due to cover, etc.

It is quite a lot better than it used to be!

Um , sorry to correct you but one uses the artillery dice not 2d6 for scatter therefore a scatter of 2" , 4" , etc . Anything from 4" or more will generally miss the target depending on the directing and size of the unit .

Leggy wrote:

Shep wrote:Cast amber spear from beast lore with a level 4. Level 4s are hard to stop.

If i'm taking a Spellweaver i'd much prefer to take lore of life.

Talking of magic, can the stank be affected by hexes, or is it just damage spells?

I'd take its rules to mean that no spell except one with a strength value can affect it.

So no hexes or augments... I'm basing this off of the sentence that says 'ignore all other spells'.

I think they successfully cast, but the product of the spell is lost.

They updated the FAQs again. Has a new section for the Steam Tank as follows;

Steam Tank, Magic phase
Ignore this paragraph.

Aduro wrote:They updated the FAQs again. Has a new section for the Steam Tank as follows;

Steam Tank, Magic phase
Ignore this paragraph.

ouch, that sucks..

I want to give GW a BIG thumbs-up for implementing some measure of version-tracking in these FAQs; highlighting changes makes life so much better.

Janthkin wrote:I want to give GW a BIG thumbs-up for implementing some measure of version-tracking in these FAQs; highlighting changes makes life so much better.

I agree a lot...

I was reading through it and noticed it about 4 pages in (stupid skaven FAQ)...

The steam tank thing for empire is rough... Pretty much ever lore has a spell that can instakill or heavily damage it.

Indeed. I heard they had new ones, downloaded it and was ready to compare it to the old one to try and find what changed. Quite pleasantly surprised to see the colors highlighting all the changes.

Thorheim wrote:In my Dwarf armybook it says "Dwarf Lords (but not Thanes) are of Royal Blood" but it says in the FAQ that I should change it too.... exactly that!

Are there some older versions still around with some misprint? Bought mine like 2-3 years ago >_>

Yes. My copy says "(but Thanes)".

Aduro wrote:They updated the FAQs again. Has a new section for the Steam Tank as follows;

Steam Tank, Magic phase
Ignore this paragraph.

So the Steam Tank is dead.

Automatically fails initiative tests. Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, etc. Infernal Gateway will be nasty as well. Lore of Metal will absolutely destroy it. The Empire's reign as Warhammer's top army was very short lived

Therion wrote:

Aduro wrote:They updated the FAQs again. Has a new section for the Steam Tank as follows;

Steam Tank, Magic phase
Ignore this paragraph.

So the Steam Tank is dead.

Automatically fails initiative tests. Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, etc. Infernal Gateway will be nasty as well. Lore of Metal will absolutely destroy it. The Empire's reign as Warhammer's top army was very short lived

lol you act like the steam tank was the reason that empire were going to be a power house...

Has nothing to do with tons of war machines and fairly cheap lords/hero's and rnf infantry....

Janthkin wrote:I want to give GW a BIG thumbs-up for implementing some measure of version-tracking in these FAQs; highlighting changes makes life so much better.

THIS, by a lot.

Noticing they got rid of the Ring of Hotek question. Guess they did nerf it then.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Therion wrote:

Aduro wrote:They updated the FAQs again. Has a new section for the Steam Tank as follows;

Steam Tank, Magic phase
Ignore this paragraph.

So the Steam Tank is dead.

Automatically fails initiative tests. Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, etc. Infernal Gateway will be nasty as well. Lore of Metal will absolutely destroy it. The Empire's reign as Warhammer's top army was very short lived

lol you act like the steam tank was the reason that empire were going to be a power house...

Has nothing to do with tons of war machines and fairly cheap lords/hero's and rnf infantry....

Mortars and Great Cannons are awesome, sure, but they only make the army playable, not the best army in the game. When an already formidable army book got bolstered by a T10 unbreakable monster, it became outrageously good. That was removed. Pretty simple, eh?

Therion wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Therion wrote:

Aduro wrote:They updated the FAQs again. Has a new section for the Steam Tank as follows;

Steam Tank, Magic phase
Ignore this paragraph.

So the Steam Tank is dead.

Automatically fails initiative tests. Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, etc. Infernal Gateway will be nasty as well. Lore of Metal will absolutely destroy it. The Empire's reign as Warhammer's top army was very short lived

lol you act like the steam tank was the reason that empire were going to be a power house...

Has nothing to do with tons of war machines and fairly cheap lords/hero's and rnf infantry....

Mortars and Great Cannons are awesome, sure, but they only make the army playable, not the best army in the game. When an already formidable army book got bolstered by a T10 unbreakable monster, it became outrageously good. That was removed. Pretty simple, eh?

Not really considering the tank was a 300 point unit asking to be tar-pitted by a stubborn block of cheap infantry... Empire are still a top tier army, even without the steam tank

Big Kudos to GW for updating thier Faq's. Lets hope this level of participation continues.

So they sold enough of the plastic Stank?

Slann can't cast transformation? weird.

Fanatics don't cause panic though! Yay!

Killjoy00 wrote:Slann can't cast transformation? weird.

Fanatics don't cause panic though! Yay!

yeah that is really wierd that they cant transform...

I guess its for fluff or power level reasons....

An etheral dragon is stupid nasty...

Therion wrote:

Aduro wrote:They updated the FAQs again. Has a new section for the Steam Tank as follows;

Steam Tank, Magic phase
Ignore this paragraph.

So the Steam Tank is dead.

Automatically fails initiative tests. Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, etc. Infernal Gateway will be nasty as well. Lore of Metal will absolutely destroy it. The Empire's reign as Warhammer's top army was very short lived

Two Minor Points.

The Steam Tank is a chariot, not a warmachine.

And being open to magic, also means that it can be healed by the Lore of Life.

I prefer it this way.

skrulnik wrote:So they sold enough of the plastic Stank?

Ha!

We went having the Steam Tank go from a 'must take' to a 'must not take' and we went from "GW hasn't sold enough plastic Steam Tanks!" to "They've sold enough!"

I think all this really means is "GW doesn't know what they want!" and that the FAQs/Updates are, perhaps, not as well thought out as they should be?

Or that their rules decisions aren't actually based on their sales desires.

Not that they are or are not well thought out.

well done to them for being so timely in the updates, hope they get a main rulebook FAQ out soon

Killjoy00 wrote:Or that their rules decisions aren't actually based on their sales desires.

Not that they are or are not well thought out.

Ha!

Some of their FAQ/Erratta decisions may not be based on sales, and future potential sales, but you can rest assured that MANY of their rules decisions (new rules editions and codex/army books) are DEFINITELY based upon moving miniatures.

Without a doubt!

I wonder how many people rushed to buy a steam tank after the first errata...

Mick

I've always hated the steam tank. If I ever face one in a game (strangely, in 11 years of WFB I've never fought one) I'm going to take much joy in destroying it.

I'm really surprised by the way GW has been handling 8th ed. Maybe this is a new change in GW where we will get updated rules fast and on time?

The slaan ruling makes no sense since hes counted as INFANTRY in the rulebook.. Bizarre

What, so models that dont use feet to move cant be counted as "on foot"? I guess no pirates with peg legs then either :(

sweet now dwarf cannons can reroll the first artillery die with a master engineer.. More boosts to warmachines. Wish every army could get drastic changes to obsolete options :p

Does this mean the casket of souls tears apart the steam tank?

The reason the Slann cannot cast transformation is he is NOT on foot, as the spell requires.

He has NEVER been able to use the "on foot" stuff, that has been consistent over 2 armybooks now.

Something else that was pointed out to me...Dwarf BSB's can take shields/equipment now. Empire one's still can't though. :(

Does anyone else notice the deal with Random Movement and charge reactions? Basically the way I'm reading it, the only thing you can do is "hold" - no flee, no stand and shoot, etc. Just made Doomwheels, HPA and Spawn that much better.

Mattbranb wrote:Does anyone else notice the deal with Random Movement and charge reactions? Basically the way I'm reading it, the only thing you can do is "hold" - no flee, no stand and shoot, etc. Just made Doomwheels, HPA and Spawn that much better.

yup!

So if a random movement guy gets into combat though, how do you do the terror tests and stuff?

Well you still take the Panic Tests as it is not a charge reaction. I don't know what the Random Movement creature can do after that (i.e. redirecting).

An interesting thing about Terror (and correct me if I'm wrong), but if you charge a Terror-causer you don't have to test for terror (just Fear in the CC phase).