srsly how?

Ok, if he's bringing an Avatar in a 500 point game...take it down and you pretty much win.

What I would do is take this simple 500 pt list: company command squad, infantry platoon, 2x lascannon teams, 1 squad of veterans with whatever special wepons you want. 6 lascannons (twin-linked when you give the order) will take an avatar down before he gets to your lines. consider giving your line infantry squads autocannons, for some high S shots to throw around. He really shouldn't be using an Avatar at 500 points, teach him a lesson by killing it. after it's gone, it's a simple mop-up game.

bring a squadron of 3x hydras.

note- this will kill anything in the eldar codex very well.

Honersstodnt wrote:bring a squadron of 3x hydras.

note- this will kill anything in the eldar codex very well.

QFT.

Much simpler than mine, and more effective. Massive range will kill it way before it gets to your lines.

Theory army list:

CCS
Veterans
Veterans
3x Hydras

Comes out to 415 points, which you can disperse for upgrades, or another vet squad. or a chimera.

Plasma Veterans combined with Bring It Down, Bring it Down! Will probably do the trick...

An avatar only has 4 wounds and no invul save. There are lots of things that can help.

I think my favorite for this particular purpose would be a squad of 10x rough riders. For 105 points, you can kill that avatar in a single charge. The other near 400 points can clean up the rest with flamers etc.

That or a humble plasma SWS with BiD will also nearly kill it with a single round of shooting. And that's only 80 in SWS land and 115 in vet land.

Or you could spend 100 points to take al-rahem+an astropath. Al'rahem insta-kills stuff with his super power weapon.

Killing it with a hydra would probably be the funniest way to kill it, though. It takes 150 points of hydras to put a single wound on it a turn, so they're not fabulous, but you get the satisfaction of pumping 8 oil-drum-sized shotgun rounds into him a turn.

Ailaros wrote:An avatar only has 4 wounds and no invul save.

So wrong.....the Avvy has both a 3+ and a 4++ save.

Really? Pg. 296 of my rulebook must be wrong then. Why bother putting unit stats in the back of the book if you're going to put the wrong stats in?

In this case, I'm still going with al'rahem, but now lasguns just got more attractive. Two PIS squads with FRFSRF and plasma guns (or a single blob with BiD), will do some serious hurt to him.

Ailaros wrote:Really? Pg. 296 of my rulebook must be wrong then. Why bother putting unit stats in the back of the book if you're going to put the wrong stats in?

Please, tell me you are not looking at the BRB for specific Eldar (or any other codex) rules.
Check the Eldar dex. On both pages 24 and 61 the 4++ is spelled out in detail. In addition, on page 24 you get all his other rules, such as being immune to melta and flamer fire.

Honstly, at 500 points he isn't that bad. He can be killed, and if you do it, you win. IG has the shots and range to bring down an un-Fortuned Avvy before he gets to you.

However, at 1k+ when he has a Farseer (or Eldrad) fortuning his 3+ and 4++ saves he becomes a lot scarier.

I'm not going to buy a $30 book just to look at a single statline. That's the whole reason they put the stats in the back of the rulebook in the first place. Disheartening to know that is was such a vain effort on GW's part.

Alerian wrote:However, at 1k+ when he has a Farseer (or Eldrad) fortuning his 3+ and 4++ saves he becomes a lot scarier.

I suppose he would be the equivalent of a T6 W6 4++ MC. Scary indeed.

thx guys im gonna beat the f*** out of his avatar

Ailaros wrote:An avatar only has 4 wounds and no invul save. There are lots of things that can help.

I think my favorite for this particular purpose would be a squad of 10x rough riders. For 105 points, you can kill that avatar in a single charge. The other near 400 points can clean up the rest with flamers etc.

That or a humble plasma SWS with BiD will also nearly kill it with a single round of shooting. And that's only 80 in SWS land and 115 in vet land.

Or you could spend 100 points to take al-rahem+an astropath. Al'rahem insta-kills stuff with his super power weapon.

Killing it with a hydra would probably be the funniest way to kill it, though. It takes 150 points of hydras to put a single wound on it a turn, so they're not fabulous, but you get the satisfaction of pumping 8 oil-drum-sized shotgun rounds into him a turn.

Those Rough riders aren't going to be able to take a DA bladestorm at all.
SWS with Plasma? BS 3 plus no ablative wounds seems like it won't do much and won't last long. If you want a small squad with plasma, a x4 Company Command Squad is probably the better option
And Al-Rahem is str 3. Str 3 to T6 wounds on +6. Good luck, you have 4 ablative wounds to play with before the avatar murders him.
I like how you always round your math hammer to whatever result favors your interpretation. 1.58, I was taught, would probably round to 2. Besides, the avatar will walk up the field. Doing 1-2 wounds a turn will kill it before it hits your lines.

How about you just take a manticore and kill the rest of his army in one shooting phase. then you have 2-3 turns to rain missiles down on the hapless avatar.

Ailaros wrote:I'm not going to buy a $30 book just to look at a single statline. That's the whole reason they put the stats in the back of the rulebook in the first place. Disheartening to know that is was such a vain effort on GW's part.

x1,000

Invulnerable saves shouldn't really pop-up. Unless you're playing against it (in which case, y'know, he'll have the fething codex!!!!) why do you need to know? I really... really... cannot believe you think it is a vain effort on GW's part...

Yup, hydras tend to help against alot of thinks in my army.

3 hydras shooting the avatar - 12 shots... 9 hits. 6 wounds. 2 failed saves.

2 rounds of shooting and the avatar is dropped, from extreme range.

you can also go with 2x vendettas... they will drop it in two turns as well. 6 shots, 4 hits, 4 wounds (likely), 2 failed saves.

The hydras are arguably better against eldar skimmers, as lascannons are reduced to str8 by wave serpents, and volume of fire is great.

Shoot it with plasma weapons. Seriously, a 4++ save is as good as any other commander. Str7 ap2 plasma weapons wound on a 3+ and ignore his 3+ armour save. Just don't let it assault you.

I thoght the Avatar was imune to all heat and energy weapons (ie, plasma, flamer, melta and Las-cannon) due tho the fact that it's made from a deanomic molten metal?
(Dam I must be old )
Hydras are good, also if you use a Chimera you can use that to Full speed tank shock him, granted it's 1 in 10 chance that it will hit him, but I bet Avatar wont like that

Equip your veterans with Meltas and Flamers. Can't fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't forget to take a hellhound as well.

Ok, this needs to be put out there: THE AVATAR IS IMMUNE TO FIRE AND MELTA WEAPONS.
If rules and points allow, take a LR Executioner. If you feel like spending half your points on it, add a lascannon and plasma sponsons. It will kill his whole list

I just cursorily did the math, so I could be wrong, But it looks like missiles are a bit better against the Avatar if he has fortune on him. They wound him on 2+ and force him to use his invulnerable save.

Autocannons are 2 shots, but they need a 3+ to wound and he takes his 3+ armor save against them. But the higher volume makes for about the same number of wounds as missiles if the Avatar doesn't have fortune cast on him. Autocannons produce more wounds than missiles if you use Bring It Down on a heavy weapon squad.

The problem with plasma is that anybody doing 2 shots has to be within 12", which means the avatar can charge them next turn.

Also don't forget that the Avatar's WS is the highest in the game. Any guard unit in CC with him needs 5s to hit (and usually 6s to wound). That makes rough riders--needing 5's to hit and 5s to wound--a really bad choice. Although a big blob of 30 guys with a commissar and PW sergeants could probably eventually pull him down--or at least bog him for the duration of the game--it's better to kill him at range.

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:Ok, this needs to be put out there: THE AVATAR IS IMMUNE TO FIRE AND MELTA WEAPONS.
If rules and points allow, take a LR Executioner. If you feel like spending half your points on it, add a lascannon and plasma sponsons. It will kill his whole list

He was joking, hence the

I think the point about the Executioner still stands though.

Nah, it is waaaaay to expensive to be used in 500pts.

The executioner wouldn't just kill it, it would MASSACRE the whole list.

At least he's not pulling the old 3 wraithlords at 500 points gimmick

JSK-Fox wrote:The executioner wouldn't just kill it, it would MASSACRE the whole list.

Or it would die to a single meltagun. IMO, that tank is overrated. It is extremly expensive, and it is pretty short ranged, so it will die fast

It will also only do 1ish wound each round to the avatar, so I don't think that is pts well spent towards the OP's goal.

Yeah, executioner would fail hard against the avatar.

If the list is what I think it is, he will be fortuned, and one bad mamma jamma.

Honestly, hydras ARE your best bet, while I fear vendettas more than hydras, hydras will have more killing power against the avatar and wave serpents.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Invulnerable saves shouldn't really pop-up. I really... really... cannot believe you think it is a vain effort on GW's part...

I guess you really... really... can't see the usefulness of an invul save, I guess.

Irdiumstern wrote:... aren't going to be able to take a DA bladestorm ... no ablative wounds... won't last long.... you have 4 ablative wounds to play with before the avatar murders him.

You're sort of assuming that I have no control whatsoever over what my opponent attacks, as if I have no movement phase, and don't get to determine how I deploy, or don't get to do damage to their stuff before they attack me, or can't take backups of thing in list-building.

All guard units are fragile. If your point is "don't take fragile units against avatars" then you're advice really is "don't play guard against avatars."

Honersstodnt wrote:3 hydras shooting the avatar - 12 shots... 9 hits. 6 wounds. 2 failed saves.

I suppose my only concern with this is that you need to spend half your points on hydras, leaving you with only the barest minimum to spend on troops (few bodies, no upgrades). Those hydras would have a LOT of ground to cover with just three vehicles...

Illumini wrote:IMO, that tank is overrated. It is extremly expensive, and it is pretty short ranged, so it will die fast

It will also only do 1ish wound each round to the avatar, so I don't think that is pts well spent towards the OP's goal.

Exactly. Plasma wagon executioner is nonsense at this points level in general, and not particularly useful for the original goal in specific.

Ailaros wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Invulnerable saves shouldn't really pop-up. I really... really... cannot believe you think it is a vain effort on GW's part...

I guess you really... really... can't see the usefulness of an invul save, I guess.

Go ahead and ignore the rest of my post. Nice one.

Illumini wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:Ok, this needs to be put out there: THE AVATAR IS IMMUNE TO FIRE AND MELTA WEAPONS.
If rules and points allow, take a LR Executioner. If you feel like spending half your points on it, add a lascannon and plasma sponsons. It will kill his whole list

He was joking, hence the

Thank you!

sluggaslugga wrote:thx guys im gonna beat the f*** out of his avatar

Now THATS the spirit. Sometimes I want to make an IG army, simply because their tanks are just badass, and their vet squads are friggin hardasses. If only I find an envelope FULL of $100 bills

Normally I don't support tailoring lists for a game, but if someone's going to being a nasty MC like the avatar to a 500 point game by all means go ahead.

For IG the anti eldar solution is AC spam.

CCS and2 infantry platoons with 1 heavy weapons squad.

Just spam as many AC as possible. You can get 10 into your list with just the CCS, 2 PCS, 4 regular squads, and 1 HWS. Use bring it down on the HWS and 6AC shots are TL. Combine 2 squads into a platoon and use the other order to give that platoon bring it down and 4 more AC shots are TL along with the 2 grenade launchers and 12 flashlights.

Best of all everything but the CCS is a scoring unit in objective based games. Eldar love 500 point objective based games against guard lists with 5 or 6 scoring units almost as much as they love seeing 10 autocannons in a 500 point game.

All flame and melta weapons fail against avatar, that's it.

I wouldn't take anything in the form of a vehicle against the avatar. Monstrous creature and has an inbuilt meltgaun which hits on a 2+. If you bung up your shooting or you're shaken for some reason, then the tank is going to die.

schadenfreude wrote:You can get 10 into your list with just the CCS, 2 PCS, 4 regular squads, and 1 HWS. Use bring it down on the HWS and 6AC shots are TL.

That's 455 points, assuming no other upgrades. You're putting two wounds on the avatar a turn, sure, but you're army is basically useless against the entire rest of your opponent's list. Hardly seems worth it to me.

Meanwhile, 3x hydras do the same damage for 250 points. Of course, this is still making a pretty serious sacrifice to your list (as the rest of the dudes would be nearly weaponless).

I mean, about how much does one of these avatars cost anyways?

---

Actually, I've got a better idea. Spend 35 points to throw in a commissar into a 20 dude blob squad. You could easily tar-pit the avatar into blatant irrelavance for the entire game, and it's a much cheaper solution.

yea, the thing about hydras is.... there is literally nothing in the eldar codex they are not good at killing.

NOTHING. hell, even ranges in cover. just drive up to em, and start blasting away at point blank (you can deny cover saves if firing through less than 2" of area terrain).

Avatar points cost = 3 chimeras -10 points

Anyhoo:

I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

holy heck.

Yeah, I'd definitely take a blob squad with commissar to handle the avatar. Then I'd wirgle the points to try and fit a manticore or hellhound in there

I would use a squad of 10 meganobs 400 points, 1 warboss with Eavy Armour 65, 10 gretchin/1 runtherd for 33

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

Wow, this is a really weak list. If you have hull heavy flamers on all your vehicles, forget the avatar--just drive forward and flame all the guardians to death.

Seriously, though, it's an army built around using the Avatar's 12" fearless bubble to keep those weedy guardian squads from running. So that makes killing the Avatar early with long-range fire even more beneficial. Once the A is down, the guardian units make a test at Ld 8 for every 2 or 3 models they lose, and can't regroup below half. Since they have nothing that can shoot further than 24" (30" with a move) a mech guard army should be able to stand off and kill everything without ever taking any serious fire, or take down the Avatar and then tank-shock all the guardians off the table.

Unlimited Pts - 5th Edition Roster

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 60 pts)
2 Company Command Squad @ 60 pts
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (35#, 215 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 215 pts
4 Platoon Command Squad
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad (Vox Caster)
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant

Troops: Infantry Platoon (35#, 225 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 225 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad (Vox Caster)
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant

Total Roster Cost: 500

Thats 8 autocannons in the list with 6 that can reroll missed hits vs MC due to orders and can reroll the orders. 1 HQ and 2 troops and the platoon command squads can advance if needed. Your looking with each platoon with 21 lasguns if within 24 inches and 6 autocannon shots that should put a hurting on the avatar with 2 platoons.

21 lasguns 10 hit and 5 more hit with the reroll.
6 autocannons 3 hit and 2 more hit with reroll.

3 wounds with autocannons and 2 wounds with lasguns. It comes out to roughly 1.8 wounds and that is not counting the other 2 autocannons from the PCS and CCS.

Flavius Infernus wrote:So that makes killing the Avatar early with long-range fire even more beneficial.

Yeah, it's definitely better, but is it worth the huge cost?

Flavius Infernus wrote: Since they have nothing that can shoot further than 24" (30" with a move) a mech guard army should be able to stand off and kill everything without ever taking any serious fire

I agree. This list brings exactly 1 piece of anti-tank, and that one piece can only target a single vehicle at once. If you spread your forces out so that the avatar has to spend lots of time running, you should be able to give the avatar the slip with at least a couple of vehicles so that you can heavy flamer the guardians.

Perhaps the 3x hydra strategy makes more sense if you give the hydras heavy flamers. In the first three turns they handle the avatar and in the next few they try and hose stuff down with heavy flamers. Of course, flamers aren't as good if your opponent spreads out properly, and people DO make morale checks on 8, so it's still pretty risky, given that the rest of your list would still have nothing in it.

I still think you can do a human wave better than your opponent can do an elf wave. Beating him at his own game shouldn't be ALL that hard in this case.

oh by the way the game was cancelled :( cause he/it couldnt make it (everybody calls him a slaanesh spawn (dunno why)) so we decided to take a 1500 pts game next saturday
are devildogs good? since they have template weapons not flamers but weapons that shoot acid that always wounds on a 2+ (strengh 1 though)

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

Wow, this is a really weak list. If you have hull heavy flamers on all your vehicles, forget the avatar--just drive forward and flame all the guardians to death.

Seriously, though, it's an army built around using the Avatar's 12" fearless bubble to keep those weedy guardian squads from running. So that makes killing the Avatar early with long-range fire even more beneficial. Once the A is down, the guardian units make a test at Ld 8 for every 2 or 3 models they lose, and can't regroup below half. Since they have nothing that can shoot further than 24" (30" with a move) a mech guard army should be able to stand off and kill everything without ever taking any serious fire, or take down the Avatar and then tank-shock all the guardians off the table.

Heavens yes, I make better lists in my sleep.

I only do mechanized with walkers, anything else is just plain meh.

The point is that the avatar is hard to kill especially with the farseer.

Avatar munches anything in 500 points. That, and shuriken cannons destroy anything with AV 10 relatively easy.

That is a 500 point list that I *shudders* commonly see though. It has its upsides... but it has four wounds of success... nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:So that makes killing the Avatar early with long-range fire even more beneficial.

Yeah, it's definitely better, but is it worth the huge cost?

Flavius Infernus wrote: Since they have nothing that can shoot further than 24" (30" with a move) a mech guard army should be able to stand off and kill everything without ever taking any serious fire

I agree. This list brings exactly 1 piece of anti-tank, and that one piece can only target a single vehicle at once. If you spread your forces out so that the avatar has to spend lots of time running, you should be able to give the avatar the slip with at least a couple of vehicles so that you can heavy flamer the guardians.

Perhaps the 3x hydra strategy makes more sense if you give the hydras heavy flamers. In the first three turns they handle the avatar and in the next few they try and hose stuff down with heavy flamers. Of course, flamers aren't as good if your opponent spreads out properly, and people DO make morale checks on 8, so it's still pretty risky, given that the rest of your list would still have nothing in it.

I still think you can do a human wave better than your opponent can do an elf wave. Beating him at his own game shouldn't be ALL that hard in this case.

Short of range and cost, guardians are better though. Heavy weapon squads as well as some kind of vehicle should put a dent in him. (Avatar has a melta, so don't rely on the vehicle if it isn't a backyard camper...)

sluggaslugga wrote:oh by the way the game was cancelled :( cause he/it couldnt make it (everybody calls him a slaanesh spawn (dunno why)) so we decided to take a 1500 pts game next saturday
are devildogs good? since they have template weapons not flamers but weapons that shoot acid that always wounds on a 2+ (strengh 1 though)

That would be a Banewolf, FYI. Devil Dog is the one that shoots the melta blast.

sluggaslugga wrote:oh by the way the game was cancelled :( cause he/it couldnt make it (everybody calls him a slaanesh spawn (dunno why)) so we decided to take a 1500 pts game next saturday
are devildogs good? since they have template weapons not flamers but weapons that shoot acid that always wounds on a 2+ (strengh 1 though)

Thats the bane wolf, they're useful against MeQ armies, but you'll have to run a serious risk to get it to cause some damage, BUT, if you did get it close to a badly positioned tactical squad you could eradicate the squad beyond usefulness in a single round of shooting.

Devildogs have been done to death, it has the same range as a multi-melta yet runs the risk of having half strengh due to the template scatter.

Hellhound are probably your best bet in the hellhound squadron options, give it a multi-melta and you have a better anti-tank platform than the devildog and a just as strong weapons platform against infantry (because you don't have to get so close)

But take my advice with caution, I make it from what I read in 'dexs and on forums as I don't play guard myself (would love to though).

Go for Veteran squads of Grenade Launchers. The Frag rounds will murder the Guardians, while the Krak rounds will deal with the Avatar in sufficient volumes. Plus they're mobile and have twice the range of Shuriken Catapults.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, it's definitely better, but is it worth the huge cost?

Considering that the Avatar is the nastiest thing in the list; hell YES it is! Seriously, what kind of question is that? Shall I ignore the Fearless, 4 wound, T6 MC in favour of killing Guardians that won't run away until said Avatar is dead? I'm actually speechless that you asked such a question and am seriously hoping that it was rhetorical.

Ailaros wrote:Perhaps the 3x hydra strategy makes more sense if you give the hydras heavy flamers. In the first three turns they handle the avatar and in the next few they try and hose stuff down with heavy flamers. Of course, flamers aren't as good if your opponent spreads out properly, and people DO make morale checks on 8, so it's still pretty risky, given that the rest of your list would still have nothing in it.

Ok, here is where you need to stop giving advice on Guard threads. Your going to forgoe 6 twin-linked, killing-on-2s, 72" range autocannons AND a heavy bolter for a heavy flamer? You can simply sit at the back of the board and dakka him to death. There's simply no NEED to advance, as he has to get within 30" to even scratch you, at which point he should have practically nothing left on the table.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, it's definitely better, but is it worth the huge cost?

Considering that the Avatar is the nastiest thing in the list; hell YES it is! Seriously, what kind of question is that? Shall I ignore the Fearless, 4 wound, T6 MC in favour of killing Guardians that won't run away until said Avatar is dead? I'm actually speechless that you asked such a question and am seriously hoping that it was rhetorical.

It really wasn't.

I don't doubt that the avatar is scary, but just because it's scary doesnt' give you a free pass to make some very serious list-building errors, like spending 100% of your points just to take down a single model.

Especially not when there are other ways to handle the avatar at a much more reasonable price.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Ok, here is where you need to stop giving advice on Guard threads. Your going to forgoe 6 twin-linked, killing-on-2s, 72" range autocannons AND a heavy bolter for a heavy flamer? You can simply sit at the back of the board and dakka him to death. There's simply no NEED to advance, as he has to get within 30" to even scratch you, at which point he should have practically nothing left on the table.

Math to the rescue!

A single hydra shooting at guardians in cover:
4 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 guardians dead.

Now, you're spending 250 points, which are going to be shooting at an avatar for 3 turns. This means that they will be putting down between 7.5 and 15 guardians down, depending on the length of the game.

What is your other 250 points of infantry really going to be doing against his other 30 dudes? Furthermore, how do you expect to win objectives games?

Or I could just not give this advice and let the OP fail horribly by attempting to gunline his opponent.

A couple of Colossi(closures?) Would do a number on this list.

Ailaros wrote:Math to the rescue!

A single hydra shooting at guardians in cover:
4 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 guardians dead.

Fantastic. His Guardians are in cover! My guns outrange his. So whilst I may kill 1.25 Guardians a turn he's killing...0. Multiply that result by 3, due to the squadron having 3 Hydras, and now I'm forcing a Leadership check a turn. That maths also isn't taking the heavy bolter into account. And all the while he's doing...nothing. Where's the logic in suggesting I nullify this advantage by mixing 72" guns and a template on the same tank?

Ailaros wrote:Now, you're spending 250 points, which are going to be shooting at an avatar for 3 turns. This means that they will be putting down between 7.5 and 15 guardians down, depending on the length of the game.

What is your other 250 points of infantry really going to be doing against his other 30 dudes? Furthermore, how do you expect to win objectives games?

250 points is a veritable f*ck-ton of Guardsmen. Some could be armed with GLACs, some with flamers. I now have a semi-mobile and a firebase with which to both outgun his army if he leaves cover for any reason, or outmanouver him if he chooses to stay put.

Either way the odds are firmly stacked in the Guard's favour.

L. Wrex

I'm just spitballing here but since no one has brought it up I'll ask. What are your thoughts on a Sniper squad as a relativley low cost plan B option? I'm just trying to think of additional ways to squeeze easy wounds out of the Avatar without throwing the rest of the game.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Fantastic. His Guardians are in cover! My guns outrange his. So whilst I may kill 1.25 Guardians a turn he's killing...0.

... because he's just sitting on the other end of the board with 12" guns not moving? How dumb do you suspect the eldar player is?

He's got three turns to find cover. By that time, he may well be getting "cover" from the fact that he's destroying your infantry in assault by turn 4.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:250 points is a veritable f*ck-ton of Guardsmen. Some could be armed with GLACs, some with flamers. I now have a semi-mobile and a firebase with which to both outgun his army if he leaves cover for any reason, or outmanouver him if he chooses to stay put.

Wow, talk about serious list-building errors.

a infantry platoon costs 130 points, base. Also, you need to have an HQ. After you throw in a bare-bones CCS (your cheapest option), you have 200 points. The only way to get 2 troops choices in 200 points is 2 squads of vets. You have 10 points left to distribute special weapons.

If you'd ever bother to take a broader look at things, you'd see that the guard list would be 3 hydras, and 25 T3 lasgunners. The eldar player puts down an MC of doom and 40 fearless guardians with eldar machine guns. Tell me how that's definitely "in the guard's favor".

Ailaros wrote:... because he's just sitting on the other end of the board with 12" guns not moving? How dumb do you suspect the eldar player is?

He's got three turns to find cover. By that time, he may well be getting "cover" from the fact that he's destroying your infantry in assault by turn 4.

And whilst he's moving he's vulnerable. The Hydras can blast away a Guardian squad a turn, its simple fire priority on the Guard player's part as to whether he wants to chisel down the Avatar, or reduce his 'retinue's' damage potential by a quarter. The board is not going to be a Cities of Death with cover strewn left right and centre for him to take advantage of. In such a situation the Guard are going to find themselves in a whole heap of trouble regardless of the army they are facing.

It seems you constantly alter your maths to suit your side of the argument constantly. If you want to show how 'ineffective' Hydras are, you put the Guardians in cover. But now we're taking into account terrain, enemy movement, deployment and a whole host of other subjective factors that you are very, very quick to disregard in all your other posts? We're discussing the maths here, not how a game would be played.

Ailaros wrote:Wow, talk about serious list-building errors.

a infantry platoon costs 130 points, base. Also, you need to have an HQ. After you throw in a bare-bones CCS (your cheapest option), you have 200 points. The only way to get 2 troops choices in 200 points is 2 squads of vets. You have 10 points left to distribute special weapons.

3 x Hydras = 225
CCS = 50
2 x Veterans = 140

Total = 415.

I make it 85 points to spend on heavy weapons. That's 3 more BS4 autocannons, 2 with BiD on that Avatar.

L. Wrex

P.S. I was wrong about the Platoon. My bad!

Ailaros wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Fantastic. His Guardians are in cover! My guns outrange his. So whilst I may kill 1.25 Guardians a turn he's killing...0.

... because he's just sitting on the other end of the board with 12" guns not moving? How dumb do you suspect the eldar player is?

He's got three turns to find cover. By that time, he may well be getting "cover" from the fact that he's destroying your infantry in assault by turn 4.

Ermm... wow. Fail. He won't be destroying your infantry in assault if YOU KILL HIM WITH HYDRAS. And you yourself said in cover, which there are plenty of turns they wont be. They also have 24" range cannons. That wreck light vehicles and T3 multi-wound models. His guardians certainly won't be if they go near your infantry.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:250 points is a veritable f*ck-ton of Guardsmen. Some could be armed with GLACs, some with flamers. I now have a semi-mobile and a firebase with which to both outgun his army if he leaves cover for any reason, or outmanouver him if he chooses to stay put.

Wow, talk about serious list-building errors.

a infantry platoon costs 130 points, base. Also, you need to have an HQ. After you throw in a bare-bones CCS (your cheapest option), you have 200 points. The only way to get 2 troops choices in 200 points is 2 squads of vets. You have 10 points left to distribute special weapons.

If you'd ever bother to take a broader look at things, you'd see that the guard list would be 3 hydras, and 25 T3 lasgunners. The eldar player puts down an MC of doom and 40 fearless guardians with eldar machine guns. Tell me how that's definitely "in the guard's favor".

Wrong. CCSs are 50 points.

/game

Imperial guard list 500 points

CCS
AC/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Hydra

Hydra

Hydra

You still have a few points left over. Upgrade/downgrade a few ACs to heavy bolters.

Something something something 15 points left over. You people play guard, use it.

I agree with LC. Your advice is counter-productive. It clogs up intelligent discussion of tactics.

The whole guardians in infantry vs guardians outside of infantry argument you have going with yourself is pretty funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LC. You edited it 4 times before I even posted this!

Ailaros constantly screws with math to suit his argument. Check any thread he uses math in.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I'm just spitballing here but since no one has brought it up I'll ask. What are your thoughts on a Sniper squad as a relativley low cost plan B option? I'm just trying to think of additional ways to squeeze easy wounds out of the Avatar without throwing the rest of the game.

Yeah, a 10-man ratling squad runs at 100 points, stealth BS 4 sniper rifles. Only downside is range, but with infiltrate, 36" should be fine. Decent plan for a back-up. Would only cause a wound or two per turn, though. Where the Hydra could possibly kill it in one turn.

Gavo wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I'm just spitballing here but since no one has brought it up I'll ask. What are your thoughts on a Sniper squad as a relativley low cost plan B option? I'm just trying to think of additional ways to squeeze easy wounds out of the Avatar without throwing the rest of the game.

Yeah, a 10-man ratling squad runs at 100 points, stealth BS 4 sniper rifles. Only downside is range, but with infiltrate, 36" should be fine. Decent plan for a back-up. Would only cause a wound or two per turn, though. Where the Hydra could possibly kill it in one turn.

Thanks for the reply. That's sort of the point though for a hundred points you're adding to the Hydra\insert_method_to_kill_Avatar_here without limiting your primary choice. I was acctually thinking of putting the Sniper Rifles on the Vets, everyone is treating the Troops as overhead but I think with the sniper rifles you are paying less then you are for some of the other Heavy Weapons and you're getting close to the same stopping power.

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:You can get 10 into your list with just the CCS, 2 PCS, 4 regular squads, and 1 HWS. Use bring it down on the HWS and 6AC shots are TL.

That's 455 points, assuming no other upgrades. You're putting two wounds on the avatar a turn, sure, but you're army is basically useless against the entire rest of your opponent's list. Hardly seems worth it to me.

Meanwhile, 3x hydras do the same damage for 250 points. Of course, this is still making a pretty serious sacrifice to your list (as the rest of the dudes would be nearly weaponless).

I mean, about how much does one of these avatars cost anyways?

---

Actually, I've got a better idea. Spend 35 points to throw in a commissar into a 20 dude blob squad. You could easily tar-pit the avatar into blatant irrelavance for the entire game, and it's a much cheaper solution.

The Avatar is 155 points.

3 Hydras=12 TL AC shots. Average hits per turn is 9
10 IG AC=20 AC shots, 10 of which are TL with the order bring it down. Average hits per turn is 12.5 with successful orders, or 10 hits if all bring it down orders fail. Either way it's still more AC hits per turn than the hydras. If orders are successful then 12AC hits=8 wounds=4 failed saves=dead avatar.

It's 455 points for 51 guardsmen, 46 of which are scoring units with the the 5 guardsmen in the PCS being the only exception. That leaves 45 points left over for grenade launchers, flamers, and vox casters. Personally I would just buy 6 grenade launchers and 3 vox casters 1 for the PCS and 1 for each platoon of 20 guardsmen. Grenade launchers can drop str6 hits on the Avatar if the avatar is still alive, or drop frag on guardians, and guardians are going to have issues with massed flashlights doing the 1st rank fire 2nd rank fire order. It's actually a decent all comers list at 500 points

Meh, they just won't do as well as GL against the fearless guardians.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Avatar points cost = 3 chimeras -10 points

Anyhoo:

I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

If IG goes 1st 5 TL AC from a HWS and platoon under the bring it down order +5 AC from the CCS, 2 PCS, and 2nd platoon is enough to bring the avatar down in 1 round of shooting.
If Eldar go 1st keep in mind the Shuriken Cannons only have a 24" range.

Shuriken Cannon range=24"
AutoCannon range=48"

The game will be won or lost depending on deployment. In 2/3 scenarios the deployment heavily favors IG.

Pitched Battle: This is the best case scenario for the Eldar. The trick is you have to deploy your units 30" away from his Shuirken Cannons. That way even if he moves 6" they are out of range. The problem is in a pitched battle the only safe location is the last 6" of your deployment zone, the only good news is he has to deploy 1st if he's going 1st. If he doesn't deploy his Shuirken Cannons at his 12" line you have more breathing room, otherwise you've got to stick to the last 6" and/or move to the side with your PCS and HWS. Your 20 man infantry platoon can take a hit or 2 from shuiken cannons so they can be a bit more forward, you just can't give up any shuirken cannon shots on your PCS or HWS.

Spearhead: Same as pitched battle with more breathing room as you have a deeper deployment zone. This should be a nightmare for the eldar player.

Dawn of War: After he deploys his Avatar and 2 guardian squads you get to deploy your entire army. Since his guardian squads have to remain within 12" of his Avatar his deployment is limited. You should be able to keep your HWS and PCS 30" away from his shuirken cannons, and best of all you get to deploy your entire army while the eldar player can only deploy 2/4 guardian squads with the other 2 rolling onto the field far far away from your front lines. Since he probably won't want to break his army up and have half his guardians out of the avatar's fearless range he will probably keep everything in reserve. That's OK, just don't deploy anything within 30" of his board edge, so only use the 1st 18" of your own board edge. The end result is he starts off very far away from you, and you always get the 1st round of shooting regardless of who goes 1st. This should be a complete F'n nightmare for an eldar list that relies on guardians with shuirken cannons.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Avatar points cost = 3 chimeras -10 points

Anyhoo:

I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

This list is definitely hard to beat.
What list are you playing. Schadenfreude mentioned IG.
An Avatar is hard to take down via shooting no matter what.
Autocannons and assault cannons can eventually do it, or massive bolter fire.

i was thinking about ratlings (rending special rule)
first round i shoot at it with everything i got (not everything actually) so that it might lose a couple of wounds then in the next round put a marbo in his back (also rending weapon) he will have to choose either slaughter my marbo or guardsmen its a hard choice since the marbo has a catachan blade with poison so it also wound with a 2+ when he is distracted ill kill his DIRE AVENGERS yes he is gonna use some dire avengers and puteverything against his avatar

If IG goes 1st 5 TL AC from a HWS and platoon under the bring it down order +5 AC from the CCS, 2 PCS, and 2nd platoon is enough to bring the avatar down in 1 round of shooting.

5 TL AC = 7,5 hits, 4+ish wounds, 1,5 unsaved
5 AC = 5 hits, 3,2ish wounds, 1 unsaved

You will hurt him quite badly, but will probably not take him down in one turn. If the eldar player really doesn't have a fortuneseer, he would be dead by turn 2 though (turn 3 if there is any LOS blocking terrain like it should be)

If the eldarplayer has a fortuneseer, this becomes much much harder.

put a marbo in his back

No, there is no point in doing this unless your opponent is a very poor player. Marbo is zero threat to his avatar, and can be taken down by his other shooting.

The difference between sticking the Avatar in a 500 point list, and a 1500 points list is huge. Massive.

Seeing as most everything necessary for a 500 point situation has been covered, I'll just add a bit to the 1500 point dilemma. Let's talk a little bit about the Avatar. It's big, it's tough, and it doesn't move fast enough. Shoot it in the face with spam, or tarpit the damn thing.

The best option to take on the avatar is cheap, fearless units. Being able to last 2-3 turns of combat is essential, actually doing damage is not all that important. Answer: Ork boys/Grots. Grots may not be fearless, and quite frankly they are not great for the task, but being led by three Orks with poisoned weapons makes them relatively nasty.

It seems like we are talking mainly about IG, so conscripts could be an option, but I am not sure how you can cope with their Ld5... wow... yeah, that could be a problem, but I assume there is some way to deal with it.

Shooting an avatar with expensive tanks seems like a waste of points to me, especially when you can tarpit an Avatar for less than 200 points, probably more like less than 150 points overall. You don't have to worry about the melta so much as the Avatar getting into assault with a tank squadron. One standard melta shot (BS 5, whatever, the bastard moves as fast as a snail) just isn't much to be worried about.

If your opponent is running a footslogging Eldar list led by an Avatar, chances are he is running a Fortune-seer along with 3 WL. Maybe 2 WL, but if they skip the Fortune-seer altogether, that list is as good as useless. Footslogging Eldar are very scared of tanks, they just don't have the capacity to take on serious Mech lists.

Blablablabla, sure you'll win a few games with Fs Eldar, but for the most part it just isn't competitive. Enjoy your games.

@ Wrexasaur

Conscirpts are, to put it bluntly, awful. As a tarpit they lack any kind of staying power and wll simply run away at the frst opportunity. The only real way to keep them around is to dedicate an HQ slot to a Lord Commisar and keep them within his Leadership bubble. This is, obviously, far from a cost-effective way of tarpitting anything, let alone an Avatar.

I would personally suggest simply using 2-3 combined PIS with a Commisar attached. Now you have 30, Ld8, Stubborn wounds that can re-roll a failed Leadership check three times (though not in the same phase due to Summary Execution). Such a squad costs 215 points (including the cost for the PCS) and due to sheer number of attacks may just throw a wound or two on the Avatar whilst they hold it up for near enough the entire game. This unit is even BETTER than a Fearless one, as they don't take additional wounds when they lose the combat.

Just my $0.02

L. Wrex

If you would like to see the Avatar disappear to the "shelf of shame" (reserved for units which just don't cut it and won't be used for a little while at least) try to do one of the following...

1) Bring it down in 1 turn. invest heaviliy on plasma or missiles or fancy tanks to do the job.
2) Bring it down with lasguns... 144 shots should kill it... on average... but you could soften it up with some missiles or similar. If you bring it down with lasguns you can take the p*ss out of the avatar whenever you see him and either a) He wont be used as much, or b) He will be more conservative, giving you and extra turn or two to pummel the rest of the army.

Psycological warfare works

@ L. Wrex

The rate which an Avatar will chew through a 30-man squad is no less than completely insubstantial.

The bottom line is that even having the chance to run away, almost defeats the purpose of a dedicated tarpit unit. Sure you'll get a few extra wounds because of fearless, but it isn't exactly the fastest way to break apart a ball of tar. Ork boys surrounding an Avatar always make me laugh a little bit, just thinking about what those Orks would be doing if they were real.

An Avatar covered in raging Orks, only slightly funnier than Grots, but grots are not fearless and they are GROTS! Maggots...

dayve110 wrote:If you would like to see the Avatar disappear to the "shelf of shame" (reserved for units which just don't cut it and won't be used for a little while at least)

LOL. Please continue, I mean...

try to do one of the following...

1) Bring it down in 1 turn. invest heaviliy on plasma or missiles or fancy tanks to do the job.
2) Bring it down with lasguns... 144 shots should kill it... on average... but you could soften it up with some missiles or similar. If you bring it down with lasguns you can take the p*ss out of the avatar whenever you see him and either a) He wont be used as much, or b) He will be more conservative, giving you and extra turn or two to pummel the rest of the army.

That sounds terribly expensive. I understand that IG are generally cheap, but 144 shots of anything costs an awful lot of points, and unfortunately enough, you're probably better off using those flashlights against things like T3 Eldar infantry... which is basically the only thing they are very good at doing any damage against.

144 shots to take down a 155 point unit at 1 ft, or the ability to split your firepower effectively against some of the most small-arms vulnerable infantry in the game.

Psycological warfare works

You mis-spelled psychological and I am not sure what you are talking about in the first place. Flashlights don't really scare anyone, but they do a pretty good job of taking down moderately costed HQ units... in numbers of 144 or more. Or not.

I was thinking abou veterans or penal legionnaires
veterans:
sgt: power Fist PPistol
3 plasma dudes
rest armed with shotguns and everyone has carapace armor

Wrexasaur wrote:The bottom line is that even having the chance to run away, almost defeats the purpose of a dedicated tarpit unit.

And this is exactly the reason why Conscripts are so terrible. If they get the charge they may *just* cause a wound to force a draw, otherwise they'll lose the combat by 1 or 2 and have to make a Leadership check on 3/4, which is close to impossible. Far better to have 30 stubborn Guardsmen with a re-roll if you want to hold something up for any significant length of time.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:@ Wrexasaur
I would personally suggest simply using 2-3 combined PIS with a Commisar attached. Now you have 30, Ld8, Stubborn wounds that can re-roll a failed Leadership check three times (though not in the same phase due to Summary Execution)
L. Wrex

How do you do the third LD check? I know you get another from the Commissar, but don't know how you found about the third.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ermm... wow. Fail. He won't be destroying your infantry in assault if YOU KILL HIM WITH HYDRAS.

...then you're not killing his avatar. Sort of the whole point of the thread, no?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
Imperial guard list 500 points

CCS
AC/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Hydra

Hydra

Hydra

Which would get eaten.

This list only has enough firepower to take down the avatar OR the wave of guardians before they hit your lines. Either you're left with an avatar blowing up a hydra a turn with another guardian squad taking down a guard squad a turn or you're left with 4 guardian squads that sweep your infantry off the board in one go and then start laying on the cannon fire onto your hydras.

schadenfreude wrote:10 IG AC=20 AC shots, 10 of which are TL with the order bring it down.

How are you getting 10 autocannons with just two BiDs?

sluggaslugga wrote:i was thinking about ratlings (rending special rule)

all sniper rifles rend, it's just that that doesn't happen all that often, and it doesn't ignore invul saves.

Wrexasaur wrote:The bottom line is that even having the chance to run away, almost defeats the purpose of a dedicated tarpit unit.

I don't know, failing LD9 twice is pretty rare. That and you can "get back in the fight" them.

Wrexasaur wrote:That sounds terribly expensive. I understand that IG are generally cheap, but 144 shots of anything costs an awful lot of points, and unfortunately enough, you're probably better off using those flashlights against things like T3 Eldar infantry... which is basically the only thing they are very good at doing any damage against.

Taking the avatar with FRFSRF is actually withing the realm of reasonable, assuming the avatar is slightly injured first (it only takes about 12 lasgunners to put a wound on it that sticks). The problem, of course, is as you mention - that if you're close enough to shoot at the avatar, you're close enough to shoot at the guardians.

Monster Rain wrote:Plasma Veterans combined with Bring It Down, Bring it Down! Will probably do the trick...

I was thinking this. Plasma is easy to get for IG, and Bring it Down is easy enough as well. Just focus your fire for a couple turns and you should be fine

Gavo wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:@ Wrexasaur
I would personally suggest simply using 2-3 combined PIS with a Commisar attached. Now you have 30, Ld8, Stubborn wounds that can re-roll a failed Leadership check three times (though not in the same phase due to Summary Execution)
L. Wrex

How do you do the third LD check? I know you get another from the Commissar, but don't know how you found about the third.

Notice the 'not in the same phase' bit? What he's saying is that in the first round of combat, I can fail, shoot a sgt, and re-roll. Do the same in round 2, round 3, etc. And actually, he can do it even if there are no sgts left, it just goes to the model (other than the commissar) with the highest leadership (randomized if multiple with same LD). So it's more than 3 times, it's as many times as you still have models (other than the commissar) in the unit.

don_mondo wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:@ Wrexasaur
I would personally suggest simply using 2-3 combined PIS with a Commisar attached. Now you have 30, Ld8, Stubborn wounds that can re-roll a failed Leadership check three times (though not in the same phase due to Summary Execution)
L. Wrex

How do you do the third LD check? I know you get another from the Commissar, but don't know how you found about the third.

Notice the 'not in the same phase' bit? What he's saying is that in the first round of combat, I can fail, shoot a sgt, and re-roll. Do the same in round 2, round 3, etc. And actually, he can do it even if there are no sgts left, it just goes to the model (other than the commissar) with the highest leadership (randomized if multiple with same LD). So it's more than 3 times, it's as many times as you still have models (other than the commissar) in the unit.

Whoops, missed that part. Yeah, That works.

Stupid morning, brain 'aint workin.

Ailaros wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ermm... wow. Fail. He won't be destroying your infantry in assault if YOU KILL HIM WITH HYDRAS.

...then you're not killing his avatar. Sort of the whole point of the thread, no?

KILL HIM WITH THE HYDRAS. As in, KILL THE AVATAR WITH HYDRAS. I need to spell it out no?

Heavy bolters make guardians cry. So do grenade launchers.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
Imperial guard list 500 points

CCS
AC/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Hydra

Hydra

Hydra

Which would get eaten.

This list only has enough firepower to take down the avatar OR the wave of guardians before they hit your lines. Either you're left with an avatar blowing up a hydra a turn with another guardian squad taking down a guard squad a turn or you're left with 4 guardian squads that sweep your infantry off the board in one go and then start laying on the cannon fire onto your hydras.

No. It has enough firepower to take out both.

Yeah, the list is fine. Remember that GL's are assault weapons as well.

Ailaros wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ermm... wow. Fail. He won't be destroying your infantry in assault if YOU KILL HIM WITH HYDRAS.

...then you're not killing his avatar. Sort of the whole point of the thread, no?

Dude, really? The Avatar dies from the Hydras, then they hydras kill the guardians. I mean, really? It's pretty ing obvious that you kill the Avatar with the Hydras first.

and my point was that if you kill the avatar then you're getting an awful lot of angry guardians charging in and sweeping away your handful of low LD dudes.

Then for the last few turns it's a game of hydras v. guardians at close range. Ignoring the fact that there are no scoring units for a moment, both could do lots of damage to each other. The guardians, however, are in plasma grenade range and can shoot their s6 cannon on the move. Dismal times for the 3 non-scoring units that are in range of certain death without the ability to kill their opponents fast enough.

Ailaros wrote:and my point was that if you kill the avatar then you're getting an awful lot of angry guardians charging in and sweeping away your handful of low LD dudes.

Then for the last few turns it's a game of hydras v. guardians at close range.

Wha. . .?

Wasn't it already determined that the hydras were not even 50% of the points used?

How then would "the last few turns it's a game of hydras v. guardians at close range" ?

/boggle

because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

Ailaros wrote:because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

The man has a point.

Monster Rain wrote:

Ailaros wrote:because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

The man has a point.

Really?! Whilst they walk towards 8 small blast templates and 3 autocannons? I'd love to know how many Guardians would be left once they get to within shooting range as it sure as hell won't be 40...

L. Wrex

There's way too many variables, but the Guardians could stand a chance with use of cover and proper dispersion.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Ailaros wrote:because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

The man has a point.

Really?! Whilst they walk towards 8 small blast templates and 3 autocannons? I'd love to know how many Guardians would be left once they get to within shooting range as it sure as hell won't be 40...

L. Wrex

Agreed, range is a bit of a bitch for the Guardians on this one. With 24" range, all Guardsmen will likely be able to fire on whichever single Guardian squad they want, while being spread out from each other. The Guardians, with their 12" guns, will be pretty limited in targets. The 24" shuriken cannons will put wounds on the squads, and pretty much mean the command squad has to stay hidden once they get into range. 10 man squads can take a couple rounds of fire from the 4 cannons if they're in cover.

Another problem for the Guardians is that they don't have assault grenades, so they can't hurt the Hydras in close combat as implied by Ailaros, and they can't even assault guardsmen in cover and strike first. Hydras aren't open topped, so there's not much fear from shuriken cannons until the Guardians get really close and can get easy side shots. Phalanx up the Hydras side to side and I'm confident saying they don't give a rat's ass about 4 squads of Guardians.

The thing is, 3 infantry autocannons and 3 hydras stand a reasonable chance of dropping the Avatar on turn 1. Almost certainly by turn 2 with some firepower to spare. The guard infantry at that point just hide and only ever expose themselves to one Guardian's squad of fire every turn. They're probably moving to limit shots against them and get cover, so the autcannons aren't firing, but that's probably okay, as they have three immortal Hydras backing them up.

If there's a lot of terrain, it's a real game of moving and objective grabbing, with disadvantage going to the Eldar player because of the lack of decisive effectiveness >12" away. If there's not a lot of terrain Eldar lose a Guardian squad a turn once the Avatar goes down.

3 Hydras 225
Company Command Squad w/ 2 Flamers 60
Chimera 55
Veteran Squad w/2 Grenade Launchers 80
Veteran Squad w/2 Grenade Launchers 80
500 Total

This probably uses the Hydras to take 2 full turns to drop the Avatar, the chimera gets to move around at will against guardians, and the veterans hide and take potshots at targets of opportunity. I think it's meaner than the infantry autocannon list previously proposed.

The key to facing off with the Guardians in the End Game will simply be keeping your infantry in cover, which you should do anyway since you are grossly out manned which is something the IG isn't used to. I'm about %90 sure Guardians don't have grenades which means that if you steal the initiative in CC with them then they are at a slight disadvantage. Use Incoming! when the guardians shoot before the assualt and you should be fine.

Wrexasaur wrote: That sounds terribly expensive. I understand that IG are generally cheap, but 144 shots of anything costs an awful lot of points, and unfortunately enough, you're probably better off using those flashlights against things like T3 Eldar infantry... which is basically the only thing they are very good at doing any damage against.

144 shots to take down a 155 point unit at 1 ft, or the ability to split your firepower effectively against some of the most small-arms vulnerable infantry in the game.

As i said originally... soften it up with missiles or whatever, if the final wound is taken off by lasguns then the avatar might not make an appearance anytime soon. I don't know this guys mindset but in my FLGS if one important unit/character gets taken out by a lasgun, or something similar (something viewed as generally rubbish and useless) then that uniy gets shelfed for a little while. But that may also be a mix of the competative streak, your opponent has altered their army and can beat down your usual list... so people change it rather than improving tactics.

Wrexasuar wrote: You mis-spelled psychological and I am not sure what you are talking about in the first place

Yea, thanks. My spelling isn't perfect and i tend to ramble on. Thank you oh so much for that glorious piece of imformation, now i can live my life without worrying if i mis-spelled psychological... I never see the point in pointing out a spelling mistake... you have to make yourself feel better by pointing things like this out? You know what word i was typing...

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:10 IG AC=20 AC shots, 10 of which are TL with the order bring it down.

How are you getting 10 autocannons with just two BiDs?

What's a BiD? I really can't figure out what that acronym is, and it's driving me crazy.

Anyhow the 10 AC list goes as follows.

Company Command Squad=1BS4 AC

2 Infantry platoons.

Platoon A
Platoon Command Squad=1AC
Infantry Squad #1=1AC
Infantry Squad #2=1AC
Heavy Weapons squad=3AC

Platoon A
Platoon Command Squad=1AC
Infantry Squad #1=1AC
Infantry Squad #2=1AC

That's 10 autocannons at 500 points with 20 STR7 shots per turn.
5 can be TL if orders are given to a combined infantry squad and the heavy weapons squad, and 1 is BS4
It's also 61 wounds of guardsmen, 45 points left over for special weapons, 5 to 7 scoring units depending of squads combine, and a healthy amount of flashlights.

A simple pure infantry list of a CCS, and 2 infantry platoons is actually competitive in 500 point games.

BiD = Bring it down. Just hover your mouse over it

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Ailaros wrote:because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

The man has a point.

Really?! Whilst they walk towards 8 small blast templates and 3 autocannons? I'd love to know how many Guardians would be left once they get to within shooting range as it sure as hell won't be 40...

So, if he lines his guardians way up at the front of his DZ, he's going to get into close combat on turn 3.

If the eldar player goes first, this means 2 rounds of shooting for the guard player. The first round is 1 hit and one scatter onto someone with the GL (say) for about 1 kill. The 3 autocannons put down about 2.5. The next turn, you do the same amount of damage with said weapons, + 16 lasguns FRFSRF. The end result is you getting assaulted by about 30 guardians who put down 60 catapult shots and 60 close combat attacks, which nearly wipes all the guardsmen away in a single go (or does, if there are any failed morale checks, including in close combat that they're horribly losing).

Now, if you're luckier and get first turn and there's no intervening terrain whatsoever and your hydras kill off the avatar faster then normal, then yeah, the eldar are beatable, but the range goes from horrifically losing to soundly beating, and it's all dependent on just a few dice rolls. Less than ideal

Biophysical wrote:
3 Hydras 225
Company Command Squad w/ 2 Flamers 60
Chimera 55
Veteran Squad w/2 Grenade Launchers 80
Veteran Squad w/2 Grenade Launchers 80
500 Total

This probably uses the Hydras to take 2 full turns to drop the Avatar, the chimera gets to move around at will against guardians, and the veterans hide and take potshots at targets of opportunity. I think it's meaner than the infantry autocannon list previously proposed.

I whole-heartedly agree. The chimera really makes the list as you actually have something that can put boots on stuff not in your DZ, and tank shock their guardians right away after the avatar falls (or in the very least, you get to drive-by flamer them without recourse if the avatar is still alive). Plus, this encourages the guard player to play aggressively to do things like tank shock/heavy flamer and to shoot with assault weapons in the infantry while charging forward. Eldar are one of those races that doesnt' necessarily do well against players who browbeat them into a corner in the first place, and, without any extra eldar mobility, I could easily see them being manhandled.

This is probably the best vehicle-based solution to this problem. If you're looking for an infantry-based solution, I'm sure one can be crafted. It really all depends on what models you have lying around and what you can proxy.

dayve110 wrote:As i said originally... soften it up with missiles or whatever, if the final wound is taken off by lasguns then the avatar might not make an appearance anytime soon. I don't know this guys mindset but in my FLGS if one important unit/character gets taken out by a lasgun, or something similar (something viewed as generally rubbish and useless) then that uniy gets shelfed for a little while. But that may also be a mix of the competative streak, your opponent has altered their army and can beat down your usual list... so people change it rather than improving tactics.

If a fortuned Avatar gets dropped by lasguns, that was just a terrible day for the Avatar, or a great day for guardsmen across the universe.

A 3+ RR is a terrible thing to behold. Seriously.

Yea, thanks. My spelling isn't perfect and i tend to ramble on. Thank you oh so much for that glorious piece of imformation, now i can live my life without worrying if i mis-spelled psychological... I never see the point in pointing out a spelling mistake... you have to make yourself feel better by pointing things like this out? You know what word i was typing...

Yes, imformation is a glorious thing.

Hopefully what little pressure I have applied will encourage you to take a bit longer when posting messages. No one minds if you edit for spelling, you don't even need to add 'edited for spelling' at the end of those posts. I hope to make YOU feel better when you realize spell-check is your friend. More to the point, no one is as scared of flashlights as you are suggesting. If you want to make use of them, and they are limited in effectiveness beyond a foot, use them to mow down weedy Eldar infantry like guardians... the units that get wounded on a 4+ and don't have the ability to wear 'sunglasses of not being hurt by IG flashlights'.

3+ RR, a truly awesome thing.

Infantry Solution:

Primaris Psyker
(Average 7 shots with Lightning Arc)
7 * 2/3 (hitting) * 1/2 (wounding)* 1/3 (armor save) = 7/6

For 140 Points (2 Psykers), you still kill the Avatar in 2 rounds, but save yourself 85 points and get HQs that aren't exceptionally vulnerable to Shuriken Cannons.

Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers, Autocannon: 95
Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers, Autocannon: 95
Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers: 85
Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers: 85

Grenade Launchers vs. Avatar: 3 * 2/3 (hit) * 1/2 (wound) * 1/3 (save) = 1/3 grenade launcher wounds per veteran squad

Autocannons vs. Avatar: 2 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 Autocannon wounds per veteran squad

If this army can bring all special and heavy weapons to bear on the Avatar, it stands a good chance of dying in a single turn. If it can't bring them all to bear, they're beating up Guardian squads. The Veteran squads have better mobile firepower than the Guardians outside of 12", and not much worse inside of 12". You could trade out a couple grenade launchers for a couple flamers to roast Guardians that get close. You probably wouldn't miss 2 out of 12 grenade launchers, and the flamers could really be decisive up close.

Lol! Having two psykers walk up and force lightning an avatar to death would be hilarious.

I think one of the things to note as well is that if you want to blow your opponent's avatar off the table and then KEEP it off (as in, left on the shelf), then you've got to kill it in some humiliating way. Losing the last wound to a lasgun or a single imperial guard model would be sufficiently humiliating. With the hydras, your opponent can think "Yeah, but if he hadn't brought all those tanks I could have won", whereas taking the last couple of wounds off with lasguns will more likely make him think "man, this avatar SUCKS!"

Were I to tackle it, I'd do it like this:

primaris psyker - 70

vets with 2x plasma - 100

PCS - flamer, chimera (HF, HB) - 35
PIS - powersword, commissar with power sword -105
PIS - powersword - 60

Hellhound - 130

The super-flamer PCS+chimera and the hellhound will make burnt toast out of the guardians, while the psyker and the power blob can easily take down the avatar in a couple of turns, and then they'll be left to charge the remnants of the guardians (or chill out on an objective). Plasma vets applied where needed.

Ld9+Stubborn+summary execution helps circumvent the problem of having too few troops, and this list provides serious hurt on those guardians, unlike just throwing around an autocannon or GL shot here and there.

Ailaros wrote:I think one of the things to note as well is that if you want to blow your opponent's avatar off the table and then KEEP it off (as in, left on the shelf), then you've got to kill it in some humiliating way. Losing the last wound to a lasgun or a single imperial guard model would be sufficiently humiliating. With the hydras, your opponent can think "Yeah, but if he hadn't brought all those tanks I could have won", whereas taking the last couple of wounds off with lasguns will more likely make him think "man, this avatar SUCKS!".

Why?

How is it even possible to get enough shots to break through a 3+ RR, the odds boggle my mind. It would be no less than terrible luck to lose a hardcore MC to a flashlight, not even terrible luck, it would be an very rare anomaly. You need 100 wounds to break a 3+ RR, as the odds are 99/100 to save. It seems a whole lot more likely than it actually is.

Besides the hardcore RR, the basic geometry of getting that many shots in with short ranged weaponry is next to impossible. My guess is that it actually is impossible, and only an Avatar without Farseer backup needs to give a second thought to flashlights. You need 12 shots to land one wound @BS3/S3, all the while ignoring the fact that using those same guns on something much squishier, will actually make your lasguns effective in some way. When push comes to shove, Guardians can multi-assault and win against small IG squads, where the Avatar can only take on one at a time, and he isn't a troops unit.

When you are being faced by an Avatar and 20-40 Guardians, NOT wasting your flashlights in a vain attempt to get your opponent to shelve a relatively great unit, is generally a good idea. More than being a good idea, it is a great idea. If for some reason your Hydra aren't taking out an Avatar over two turns, like trash to the bin, I would still be hard pressed to think of a situation where it makes less sense to just shoot at squishy stuff. On second thought, those Hydra are not going to do much at all against a fortuned avatar, so they only make sense in very small games, where it doesn't really make sense to take the Avatar in the first place. AP4 is better used against aspect warriors, but most of the time you're giving cover saves as it is, so it still isn't particularly amazing against infantry. Catching most aspect warriors in the open, is likely to be the bees knees.

Guardians have FoF, the Avatar doesn't... which is really the greatest threat to IG squads? I don't consider this a complicated issue, more one of simple pragmatism. Flashlights do better against single wound units like Warlocks, and even then they aren't that good, just feasible as a method of cheaply dealing with expensive units. Getting shots on one model (even with a large base), vs. shots on 5-10 small to medium based models, is a totally different ballgame.

If your squads are within rapid fire range, they are in assault range, so use them in a way that they can actually counter an Avatars strength... Just try to use units that can stick in that fight for multiple turns, via Ld RRs. There is a much larger opportunity for success with tarpitting, while shooting flashlights is just silly.

Wrexasaur wrote:You need 100 wounds to break a 3+ RR, as the odds are 99/100 to save. It seems a whole lot more likely than it actually is.

What?

3 squads = 24 lasguns = 72 shots (FRF) = 36 hits = 6 wounds = 2 failed 3+ saves. If he's rerolling (which he can't, in this case), then you're looking at slightly less than 1 per turn (and we're not even counting the 9th guy who could have a plasma gun or something) . That's still 1 per turn. In this specific case (where he doesn't get rerolls) if you take 2 wounds off with other stuff, the last two will fall to a single volley of lasgun fire.

Hardly the 99/100, whatever that means.

As far as I know, the OP is now asking for advice concerning 1500 point games, not 500 point games. I am not going to start a massive 5-page discussion over something that you agreed with me on earlier in the thread. Those lasguns work against Guardians quite well, and both the Avatar and Guardians will be in range.

My numbers are a bit off, it is more like 9/10, or 90%, not 99/100. My bad.

Point still stands, just test those lasguns against Guardians instead, then weigh which unit needs to die first... Half of what the Avatar does is soak up firepower, while guardians are not good at that at all.

72 shots/ 36 hits/ 18 wounds... 5+ armor/cover (12 wounds) 4+ cover (9 wounds). That is one dead Guardian squad. Assuming the Avatar made it across the board, there is no presumption that he has taken any wounds by this point, and if he has you've likely used all of your AT to do so. If there are WL in the list and you are firing AP3 weaponry the avatar, the one with an invulnerable save, I would be surprised if your army weren't flamed to death in return. WL are a very serious threat to cover-bound squads, and an Avatar is a minimal threat. By shooting the Avatar, you're allowing it to perform to the best of it's abilities, instead of finding a more effective way of countering it when the time comes.

The Avatar is a threat for around one turn of the game, and even in that case, the best targets are tanks and heavy infantry, not super cheap light infantry.

We will get along at some point Ailaros, I promise you that.

I feel like illustrating this point might be worthwhile, perhaps I will put together an example showing why 3 squads of cover bound infantry will have a very hard time getting rapid fire shots onto one large based model. 20-25% of the board is terrain, and in most instances less than half of that is actually area terrain. Because of this your squads are not going to be clumped into one piece of area terrain, they're very likely to be spread out across the long edge of the board, or stuck into multi-leveled buildings.

Like I said, maybe I will have to put together a few diagrams explaining the geometry behind this. A 12" range is pitiful, and it only becomes worse when you are trying to target a single model with those shots. It will be hilarious when shots are declared from 3 squads (HUZZAH!), and you can barely get half of those guns into range. Better yet, you're playing against a very experienced opponent, and they have mastered the art of deceptive ranges (OH NO!).

"That isn't 12", it's 12.25, which happens to be all that is needed to cut your shots in half."

Wrexasaur wrote:As far as I know, the OP is now asking for advice concerning 1500 point games, not 500 point games.

Ah, thus the confusion. If you will notice, the title of the thread is "how can you beat an avatar with ig in a 500pts game?"

Wrexasaur wrote:We will get along at some point Ailaros, I promise you that.

How about right now? I agree that in a 1500 point game, relying only on lasguns as the prime way to tackle an avatar is silly. Taking off the last wound in a pinch? Sure! But otherwise, yeah, lasgunners usually have something better to do.

Ailaros wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:As far as I know, the OP is now asking for advice concerning 1500 point games, not 500 point games.

Ah, thus the confusion. If you will notice, the title of the thread is "how can you beat an avatar with ig in a 500pts game?"

Yeah, it was a pretty obscure situation to begin with. I don't feel that using Avatars in 500 point lists is common at all.

Wrexasaur wrote:We will get along at some point Ailaros, I promise you that.

How about right now? I agree that in a 1500 point game, relying only on lasguns as the prime way to tackle an avatar is silly. Taking off the last wound in a pinch? Sure! But otherwise, yeah, lasgunners usually have something better to do.

If all you have to shoot at is the Avatar, then plink away at the bastard! I don't think that is very likely, or very possible, but if the guns aren't shooting at anything else then it makes a great deal of sense.

Anyway, WE AGREE! This one will go down in the history books.

The OP is talking about 500 point games not 1500, he specifically mentioned the army consists of nothing but an avatar and 4 guardian squads with shuirken cannons. The list had an avatar that is not supported by a farseer, and completely lacked a farseer.

That being said an avatar that is not supported by a farseer with fortune is half of an avatar. With fortune an avatar's chance of passing an invo increases from 50% to 75%, and the chances of passing a regular armor save goes from 66% to 88%. It's not even worth it for IG to shoot at the avatar while the farseer i still alive.

The worst possible thing IG can do to eldar is PBS their leadership down to 2 after inflicting 25% casualties. 2 things can stop PBS a farseer with runes of warding, and the avatar making guardians fearless. In larger games the avatar is just not worth it's points against IG. Because the avatar has a fearless bubble all it's really going to do is force large amounts of guardians to stick close to the avatar, potentially out of cover, with the outcome being the guardians are just turned into large pie plate fodder. The farseers are the real threat. Kill the farseer 1st and the PBS are free to use their psychic powers on 2 dice again, and the Avatar no longer has fortune.

schadenfreude wrote:The OP is talking about 500 point games not 1500, he specifically mentioned the army consists of nothing but an avatar and 4 guardian squads with shuirken cannons. The list had an avatar that is not supported by a farseer, and completely lacked a farseer.

What?...



You'll see...

sluggaslugga wrote:oh by the way the game was cancelled :( cause he/it couldnt make it (everybody calls him a slaanesh spawn (dunno why)) so we decided to take a 1500 pts game next saturday
are devildogs good? since they have template weapons not flamers but weapons that shoot acid that always wounds on a 2+ (strengh 1 though)

Anyway... not that it matters what the OP says in his own thread or anything.