In the past, there have been minis that have been labeled as rude, crude, and even lewd. Most of these models have been done away with for those reasons (the ones I recall right now are Demonettes).

But these have been produced by a professional grade company and can risk lawsuits and/or loss of business. So what happens when Average Joe decides he wants to model and paint an IG army to look nearly identical to SS Panzer troops from WWII? Or a mural of a naked woman on a Rhino? Or perhaps some nudie Zombies for his Vampire Counts? And for no other reason than they enjoy the way the models will look.

My dilema is that I'm working on an IG army, already painted with greys and whitewashed skin, and am thinking about adding arm bands to denote rank on some of the models. The problem is that red, white, and black are the colors I'm considering because they offer a nice contrast to the grey. I would have a red arm band, with a white stripe in the middle wide enough to fit a black rank symbol. I wonder if that's going too far.

I think it's safe to assume that I can bring it to my FLGS if everyone I play against there thinks it's fine. But if I take it to a tournament...

So what I'm asking Dakka:
>When is someone going to far with their conversions/painting?
>If you encountered an army that fits the bill above, what would you do at a tournament?

EDIT:
Shoulder pad pics on page 7. I'm wondering if anyone still thinks that the shoulder pads or fatigue trim shown in the pictures are still to close to Nazi symbols.

It really depends on the person. Some people will take particular offense to things like that, so I wouldn't reccommend it at a tournament.

I don't think it'd cause a lot of trouble, I just wouldn't think of it as a keen idea.

Then again, all you've done, really, is paint a red band on the sleeve - if you avoid painting complimentary swastikas to it, and deliberately paint something else, I can't see it being an issue.

hope this helps,
Mav.

Are you referring to painting a symbol that is similar to the Nazi Swastika? If so, that would obviously be in bad taste. Personally, I think having a red arm band, with a white background and black logo, might be getting a little too close to the line to reminding some people of Nazi imagery. Especially if doing this causes you to post up a thread titled "When minis go too far"! Then yes, I think it's likely that you're straying across that line... but it's hard to say without seeing a pic of what you have in mind.

I wouldn't mind. It's just a mini after all.

RiTides wrote:Are you referring to painting a symbol that is similar to the Nazi Swastika? If so, that would obviously be in bad taste.

I'll post a picture of what I'm thinking about when I'm able (a few hours...). It's not a swastica, as the black I would be putting in would be symbols of rank literally taken from the modern american army. Also, the white area would be larger.

Maverick wrote:It really depends on the person. Some people will take particular offense to things like that, so I wouldn't reccommend it at a tournament.

I don't think it'd cause a lot of trouble, I just wouldn't think of it as a keen idea.

My problem is that IG is my ONLY army at the moment. So if I want to go to a tournament, it'd be what I take.

And I think the arm bands would add a lot more character to a usually bland out-of-the-box-cadian force.

Edit:
DISCLAIMER!!!
Before someone comes and accuses me of being a Nazi for what I want to do with my army, I want to be known that I hate the ideology behind the Nazi party and dissapprove of EVERYTHING they did.

If it looks good, paint it. If anyone complains, slap 'em.

I'm not saying your army is Nazi themed, it sounds like you are simply worried that your colours are the same as the Nazi colours.

If that is a worry, you could change the black to blue and there would be no cause for complaints.

To other posters, whatever your personal feelings, you need to be aware that whenever someone makes a Nazi or Nazi-alike themed army, it always causes controversy and anger from a significant number of players.

There's not point taking an attitude about this because it is a widespread feeling with a lot of support.

For the first question I really don't know, as it's determined on a case by case basis for me.

As for the second question I'd likely shake your hand for not bowing to fear. It's a part of history, and if you want to build an IG force in homage to the Wehrmacht or Schutzstaffel then I would be impressed. Hell, even if you did it simply because you enjoy the aesthetics I wouldn't mind. If you did it to promote race hate or for some other foolish reason I certainly would be bothered, but then again I'd be offended by you and not your army.

Germany has much to be ashamed of during the 30's and 40's, but no group in existence doesn't have shameful parts to its history. So as long as you're not extolling those negative virtues I'd be impressed by your maturity. People are far too ignorant when it comes to symbolism, especially when dealing with NSDAP symbolism. It's painfully ironic the blind hate that gets directed towards a runic marking. Especially a runic marking which has many more meanings than being the symbol emblazoned upon the Blood Flag.

I literally could go on for pages about this, as a student of history I find such censorship painfully ironic and disturbing. But I will stop before I start rambling too much. In short though, I'd have no issue with it as long as it wasn't some outward expression of your race hate or something equally bigoted.

I cant say it would be bad. Look at all the games were you play germans, Flames of War, War at Sea, Axis and Allies, if a game and for fun. People always also like to point out that the "bad" guys always get the good toys ! so go for it if it looks kool cant see it being a problem.

Neconilis wrote:

As for the second question I'd likely shake your hand for not bowing to fear. It's a part of history, and if you want to build an IG force in homage to the Wehrmacht or Schutzstaffel then I would be impressed. Hell, even if you did it simply because you enjoy the aesthetics I wouldn't mind. If you did it to promote race hate or for some other foolish reason I certainly would be bothered, but then again I'd be offended by you and not your army.

...

I literally could go on for pages about this, as a student of history I find such censorship painfully ironic and disturbing. But I will stop before I start rambling too much. In short though, I'd have no issue with it as long as it wasn't some outward expression of your race hate or something equally bigoted.

I'm a huge histroy buff as well, and feel the same way. Which is why I want to do it.

That aside, I'm not asking in particular about my army. I'm using it as an example. I want to what would happen if you ran into an army similar to what I was talking about or "worse".

My DIY chapter is black, red and white and I've never been called on it and have never oven thought about it. I'm also not a Nazi. Those colors look good together, man. Let's take them back!

There's a reason the Nazis chose those colors. They're really strong and very eye-catching. As evil as the Third Reich was, they were snazzy dressers and they knew it. This kind of thing comes up a lot, and it causes a lot of people to get up in arm. Personally, I don't really mind it if it fits into the right context and doesn't go too far.

For instance, I've seen Imperial Guard armies painted up in greys and black with the Iron Cross emblazoned on all their vehicles. That's not too bad. It's not like you're modeling Slaughterhouse Five. Just keep in mind when it goes too far. Another example would be the aforementioned murals on vehicles. If done tastefully, it can be alright. After all, a pin-up painted on the side of a Valkyrie is right at home. Meanwhile, a graphic mural of anime girls getting raped by tentacles on the roof of your rhino is not. I've seen both multiple times.

Just don't be an idiot about this kind of thing and you'll be fine. You have enough common sense to question it thus far, and definitely enough to keep yourself from painting swastikas on all your tanks.

THEIR GOD DAMN MINIATURES!

Arm bands?

Signifying rank?

Using red black and white?

No Nazi symbology?

If you really need confirmation that you are not a 'bad man' then just paint up a test mini and post it on here.

As it is there are two ways to think about this:

1) If you are worried that your armies theme will be misconstrued then it is probable that they will be - rethink the colour scheme or maybe go with two out of the three colours.

Or

2) You need to chill out and stop making your own 'monster under the bed'. Context is everything and I doubt that people you are gaming with will make any connection unless you point out by stating loudly ' I DIDNT MAKE A NAZI THEMED ARMY'.

I think it depends on the context: A naked woman on the side of a tank isn't as bad as squads of troops painted in SS-esque schemes. Because of this I think you would have to judge this based upon the level of impact it has.

However, it just has to be said that: they're toy soldiers. There are many other wargames such as Flames of War, which involve actual Nazi models. I see no-one getting upset with these because they are simply a historical context. You are re-creating a piece of history, not trying to embellish it. If you were painting them as a way of making a statement, whereas you painted things referring to Nazi beliefs, then yes that would be considered offensive, but from what you've put forward, the only person who would really be offended by that would be a do-gooder who needs to get their priorities right.

Unless you wright "HITLER 4 LIFE" on one of your tanks I wouldent care

At this juncture, I'd like to point out I was using my army as an example. I'm trying to get a broader view of the issue rather than me specifically.

Maybe try different colours, blues or greens instead of red.

We have a guy at my LGS that has a painted SS armored company army. Looks fantastic and no ones ever complained about it. And I use to have a Daemon army and no one complained about that either and one guy has a KISS Dark Eldar army and no one has complained about that either.

My personal opinion is that you should paint what you want, if you know there's a lot of kids at your store obviously don't paint nude models in your gaming army. You shouldn't have to go to your LGS or some online forum and ask "is it ok if I paint my army like this..." but do keep in mind of stuff like recent events or nudity. It's been how many years since Nazi Germany, people who are complaining about something like that is just complaining to be an ass.

I wouldn't mind too much. I probably would mind if you started goose stepping everytime you went to move your models. haha

I have a buddy who actually painted up a lot of Nazi and SS symbols on his Stormblade themed Cygnar army. It actually fit considering the fluff behind the army. I had no problem with it.

Paint them up as full SS Panzer,

Where a long wool coat and carry them in in a black brief case or leather satchel,

After you pull them out pull of your hat and put on your yamika.

Proceed to intentionally lose while muttering take that you bas***ds.(Oh did, I forget the part where you have the beard ans sidelocks of an orthodox rabbi.)


Seriously, it is no problem. As long as the paint job looks good.

PS- I dont want to hear complaints from any of you when I finally make an IG army that is done up like Post WWII Soviet T-34's and my penal legions are painted as Gulag prisoners,....Speaking of which anyone know a source for red stars?

There was a thread about this awhile ago about a absolutely stunning IG army that was modeled after Germans during WWII.

My stance is do it. Yes the nazi's "final solution" gave us an understanding of man's inhumanity to his fellow man but we are talking about little plastic men and tanks here.

Now I can see that if you model stormtroopers throwing people with stars on their chests into a furnace and call it a hellhound.... that might offend a few people. But in all honesty I would give your credit for having such a big pair of balls.

When it comes down to it....Model naked german zombies that are riding a giant penis tank thats draging naked half dead men women and children behind it.

Its palstic toys and its also form of art..... and trust me i have seen stuff way worse then penis furnace tank that was called a masterpiece cause it was "art"

BTW I know I went a little exterme there but I was just trying to make a point

My Inquisition army (DH) has large RED banners for their vehicles. These large RED banners have large WHITE circles in the middle of them, and inside of them, they have a "funny looking cross" painted in black. The stormtroopers are done up in grey and black uniforms.

Do they look like Nazis? Only from across the room if you are nearsighted and old. From 5 feet away, you can clearly make out the "funny looking cross" is actually the Stylised Capital 'I' of the Inquisition faction (with its three crossbars).

I've got two jewish kids in my club (and their mum) and none of them have ever commented (in public) about them. Besides, Red, white and black is one of the schemes used in the book.

Unless you are painting swastikas everywhere and putting other phrases around the vehicles and iconography, no-one should care

Like putting "The final solution" on a Deathstrike missile launcher tank, or "Work will set you free" on a penal battalion pennant.

chromedog wrote: or "Arbeit macht frei" on a penal battalion pennant.

Fixed that for you

Do it. They're your minis. It's your property.

Khornholio wrote:Do it. They're your minis. It's your property.

+1

If someone else doesn't like it, tell them to

A) Get over it

B) Feth off

or C) Offer to remove their eyes with a pair of pliers.


They're your plastic toy soldiers. Do what you bloody well please. If the resemblance to the Waffen SS offends someone, they need to grow a pair. Yea, they were evil. Yea, they killed many, many innocent people. But so did the Romans, Crusaders, Soviets, Chinese, Americans (Hey, ya nuked two large cities. That IS pretty cold )

Does anyone get offended by armies made in the image of one of these forces? Not even close. So do what you want, because it's your stuff, and anyone that thinks they have the right to tell you that you can't paint something a certain way needs to catch a bullet.


Hell, they still make Nazi-themed grey army men. I used to have a bunch when I was little. I even remember they're what I first practiced painting on!

It seems to me that everyone thinks that it's that players choice to paint their army however they feel. And I agree, weather you have SS guard of hello Kitty daemons it's that players army and if people get offended it's their problem, everyone has a right to free speech. As for pin up girls that is part of military history ever since there has been armor people have painted images of heraldry to inspiring murals to frightening ones. Put pin up girls on tanks, every army in history that had a tank had at least one with an almost naked lady on it. I can't even think of WWII without thinking of a sexy lady on a B17 or Lancaster. I don't think you can make a mini go too far without doing something completely obnoxious such as the Hell Hound mentioned above.

I would not see any problem whatsoever with even painting up your guard as full on swastika toting SS. The Empire isn't really a nice place to live. It is ruled over by a fascist dictator (Emperor) and a vast iron fisted buerocracy. I think drawing a comparison between the Imperium of Man and the Nazi Empire isn't that big of a jump. Both empires practice the extermination of those they deem unfit. Both use massive propaganda and fear tactics to keep their citizenry in line.

I say go for it. Just be prepared for a few narrow minded people to be offended.

As far as nudity goes, I guess as long as you are not playing around young kids you should be okay. My father is an artist who specialized in WWII aircraft and you'd be suprised at some of the stuff those guys painted on their planes.

I'm glad to see how much this forum is maturing, I remember a thread like this a while back. The level of PC Nazi nerdrage was nuaseating.

Remember, you started this thread and asked our opinion. This means that we get to see pictures when you get the time.

Black white and grey on an IG army will be beautiful if painted well.

Interesting topic. I personaly know of a beautifully painted IG army done up in WWII German camo and all te tanks modified to look like the real thing. This guy also has a couple of Steel Legion squads done up all in black and i have never herd a bad word about this army. (the guy is also a historical model maker and does some superb models in larger scales).

I have seen several Valkries and other flying models painted up with 'nose art' and i also dont have a problem with them.

Coming from a historical side i have several model aircraft with swastickas painted on them and i have never once had a bad comment about them. I do know they are illiegal to be worn of aircraft flying in Germany though and possibly a few other countries.

In terms of gaming i realy am not botherd, go ahead and paint swashstickas on them, at the end of they day the symbol has been around alot longer than the Germans, i dont know exactly how long but i believe its an ancient religios symbol and the Finnish have used it for a long time. My problem comes with the Nazi idealogy, if you where going down that route id have a problem. The important thing to remember is the world has moved on, we have hopefully learnt lessons from what happened and dont forget it wasnt only the Germans who commited atrocities, if you dont believe be go and google the fire bombing of Dresden.

And on that note before i get to into history i will end this post.

There's a big difference between painting an IG in grey with black, red, and white details vs. converting minis to look like SS troopers.

metallifan wrote:Does anyone get offended by armies made in the image of one of these forces? Not even close. So do what you want, because it's your stuff, and anyone that thinks they have the right to tell you that you can't paint something a certain way needs to catch a bullet.

Well, that's sorted then. Anyone who is offended should be dealt with by physical violence. What are you, some kind of redneck survivalist?

This is the kind of attitude that gives wargamers a bad name. The fact is, some images carry a lot of cultural baggage, and the swastika remains one of the most provocative. If you have a personal craving to paint your Imperial Guard as Liebstandarte bodyguard so you can line them up while listening to the Panzerlied, then do it in the privacy of your own home (perhaps with other like-minded individuals). But if you bring them to a store or tournament, don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction from people who just may have lost a relative in a death camp or may be a little less desensitived that you It's not a matter of your God-given right to say anything you like, no matte how crass and stupid, or historical relativism (everyone killed people so anything is okay). It's a matter of recognising that there is a line between referencing historical forces and just being offensive.

I think the dividing line is minis that replicate (say) the SS look and minis which are inspired by it. Black and red uniforms - no problem. 'Ambush' schemes on your tanks and troops in camouflaged smocks - fine. Just stay away from swastikas. Posing them giving the Nazi salute is probably also a bad idea. The same applies to excessive amounts of 'anatomical correctness' on models, or sexually explicit poses. You're just asking for trouble (a lot of kids play this game), and what does it prove? You can suggest that your Dark Eldar or whatever are depraved without having to spell it out in detail.

Tailgunner wrote:This is the kind of attitude that gives wargamers a bad name. The fact is, some images carry a lot of cultural baggage, and the swastika remains one of the most provocative. If you have a personal craving to paint your Imperial Guard as Liebstandarte bodyguard so you can line them up while listening to the Panzerlied, then do it in the privacy of your own home (perhaps with other like-minded individuals). But if you bring them to a store or tournament, don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction from people who just may have lost a relative in a death camp or may be a little less desensitived that you It's not a matter of your God-given right to say anything you like, no matte how crass and stupid, or historical relativism (everyone killed people so anything is okay). It's a matter of recognising that there is a line between referencing historical forces and just being offensive.

I think the dividing line is minis that replicate (say) the SS look and minis which are inspired by it. Black and red uniforms - no problem. 'Ambush' schemes on your tanks and troops in camouflaged smocks - fine. Just stay away from swastikas. Posing them giving the Nazi salute is probably also a bad idea. The same applies to excessive amounts of 'anatomical correctness' on models, or sexually explicit poses. You're just asking for trouble (a lot of kids play this game), and what does it prove? You can suggest that your Dark Eldar or whatever are depraved without having to spell it out in detail.

Would you apply the same rules to a Soviet themed army with gulag prisoners as the penal legion?

Have yet to use my Wyches as they are too close to the knuckle. But then a lot of the kids that will be in the library where the club plays are aged 8-12 and I reckon in that context the figures are inappriopriate.

The issue of the arm bands would be different.
I know you are not using swastikas on the arm bands, but imho it would not be appropriate as there is no historical justification.

However if you were playing with a SS Panzer Division, maybe. Then again good luck if you can paint the swastika on a 1/144th scale armband!
Red, black and white arm bands are a good idea which could be used to indicate the more dogmatic aspects of the Imperium.

Augustus,
Spot on mate. Some of the nose art in the Gulf War is risque to say the least, but there was a modicum of fabric on the pin-ups!
There are some very raunchy examples of WW2 nose art
And there is at least one example of pornographic work on a Vietnam F-105 Thud that I blush to even think of

I love the irony of using fascist imagery to promote free speech.
It's almost like a big middle finger in the faces of the Nazis.
Besides, as others have said, it is your army, you can do whatever you want with it- within reason, of course.

Id only take issue with them for the same reason I hate it when people make Angry marine armies, or hello kitty armies, or space marines modelled after Jedi Knight armies, or imperial guard as storm trooper armies.

You"re ruining my immersement of the game by not following the fluff guidelines.

But if you just adoped a colour scheme but used imperial eagles and stuff, that'd be fine by me

Tailgunner wrote:
Well, that's sorted then. Anyone who is offended should be dealt with by physical violence. What are you, some kind of redneck survivalist?

This is the kind of attitude that gives wargamers a bad name. The fact is, some images carry a lot of cultural baggage, and the swastika remains one of the most provocative. If you have a personal craving to paint your Imperial Guard as Liebstandarte bodyguard so you can line them up while listening to the Panzerlied, then do it in the privacy of your own home (perhaps with other like-minded individuals). But if you bring them to a store or tournament, don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction from people who just may have lost a relative in a death camp or may be a little less desensitived that you It's not a matter of your God-given right to say anything you like, no matte how crass and stupid, or historical relativism (everyone killed people so anything is okay). It's a matter of recognising that there is a line between referencing historical forces and just being offensive.

I think the dividing line is minis that replicate (say) the SS look and minis which are inspired by it. Black and red uniforms - no problem. 'Ambush' schemes on your tanks and troops in camouflaged smocks - fine. Just stay away from swastikas. Posing them giving the Nazi salute is probably also a bad idea. The same applies to excessive amounts of 'anatomical correctness' on models, or sexually explicit poses. You're just asking for trouble (a lot of kids play this game), and what does it prove? You can suggest that your Dark Eldar or whatever are depraved without having to spell it out in detail.

I have a feeling that you don't like Flames of war then. I don't get it people play as evil vampire's, sadistic demon worshiping fanatics but oh man hes got a swastika on a model that guy must be in a Nazi supporter! Maybe he too likes to play as the bad guys but prefers Imperial guard armies?

darkdm wrote:I'm a huge histroy buff as well, and feel the same way. Which is why I want to do it.

That aside, I'm not asking in particular about my army. I'm using it as an example. I want to what would happen if you ran into an army similar to what I was talking about or "worse".

Here is where I take issue- you're intentionally setting up this discussion in the context of your army being "bad"- by your own phrasing, "what would happen if you ran into an army similar to what I was talking about or "worse"". This is setting yourself up for negative comments.

This is also different from what you said your reason for choosing these colors was in the original post:

darkdm wrote:My dilema is that I'm working on an IG army, already painted with greys and whitewashed skin, and am thinking about adding arm bands to denote rank on some of the models. The problem is that red, white, and black are the colors I'm considering because they offer a nice contrast to the grey. I would have a red arm band, with a white stripe in the middle wide enough to fit a black rank symbol. I wonder if that's going too far.

I played 40k in 3rd edition, and I played black templars, using a lot of red. So my colors were black, white, and red. You can paint an army with these colors, and have no problems whatsoever. However, you can also intentionally "push the envelope" by getting close to painful (for many) imagery and/or themes. A Nazi theme would be prime among these. Some people may have no problem with this, as people have made good points here about. However, many will.

I personally don't want to see that kind of imagery in my games. I feel differently if I'm intentionally playing a historical game, such as Axis and Allies or Flames of War. But even then, I don't really want to see swastikas- there's just too much pain attached to the image for me.

That's my personal opinion, and it would make me uncomfortable. However, I know many others feel that way, too. Again, you set this discussion up painting your army theme in a bad light already, even just the title "When minis go too far...". Imho, if you look at your army and think "It's gone too far", then it's time to pull back a bit and look at your reason for doing it, and if it is justified, or if there's a better way to go about it.

I know you said you wanted a broader discussions, but this has been discussed ad nauseum, and for me it's easier to talk in specifics, as each case is different.

Just my $0.02

Here we are again.

The only thing I would stay away from is swastikas and modeling your minis goose stepping with the third reich salute. I think even the SS would be ok on your minis.

No one complains about WWII Russian looking figures and they killed more people than the Germans in WWII. I mean heck we even have Commissars in the game for that matter.

I would not be angered at this. Heck i would play say that your trying to re-create some history. As long as your not extrmely tasteless.

However I had this idea a while back myself. I was going to do some 500 Points by making Helghast (yes the Killzone 2 kind) themed space marines. Was kinda scared becuse they are like space nazis in a way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helghast

To be perfectly honest, I’m glad nobody has freaked out on this thread. Actually makes me happy to see that this is issue can be handled maturely. From what I’ve seen, most people think it’s ok and/or I should tell people who don’t like it to go stick it somewhere. My problem with that is that is I’m asking here because I do care what other people think.

As a reiteration, it’s not a Nazi themed army. The guardsmen are painted with a light grey for the fatigues and a darker grey, almost black, for the flak armor. The idea is to put red/white arm bands on guys to help denote rank on some guys. The symbol on the arm band would be black, but it’d be the symbol of rank corresponding to that particular model. Turns out, my phone hates my computer and doesn’t transfer the (crappy) pictures, so when I have access to a camera, I’ll put up some pictures.

It’s not deliberately meant to be Nazi-like, it’s just that red and white to great job with contrast on my models. The arm bands might look something like this (a la paint, sorry about the quality):

niceguyteddy wrote:No one complains about WWII Russian looking figures and they killed more people than the Germans in WWII. I mean heck we even have Commissars in the game for that matter.

While that's probably true, it's really not a fair comparison, teddy. What gets people's ire up about the Nazis is all of the horrible atrocities associated with concentration camps and basically genocide committed against a specific group of people that was racially motivated.

It's hard to separate those ideals from the army itself- which was pretty "cool" from a historical point of view in many ways- and I think that's why people are so bothered by it. I know that's what it is for me, and is why I don't mind playing a game like Axis and Allies where I'm looking at the overall war and strategy involved, but would be bothered by a lot of the Nazi imagery if it was done very realistically.

It's obviously a touchy subject, and something that's going to vary depending on who you play with/against, and also greatly on how you present your army and theme. Once again, starting out with "when minis go too far..." is just asking for someone to take offense or to take it the wrong way, imho.

Edit: I have no problem with the image above, although if you were worried about it, the suggestion earlier in the thread to use a blue instead of the black would pretty much make the issue go away completely. Red arm bands are nothing a single army had a monopoly on, although the overall effect is getting a bit close. A dark blue would remedy all such comparisons, though!

RiTides wrote:While that's probably true, it's really not a fair comparison, teddy. What gets people's ire up about the Nazis is all of the horrible atrocities associated with concentration camps and basically genocide committed against a specific group of people that was racially motivated.

It's hard to separate those ideals from the army itself- which was pretty "cool" from a historical point of view in many ways- and I think that's why people are so bothered by it. I know that's what it is for me, and is why I don't mind playing a game like Axis and Allies where I'm looking at the overall war and strategy involved, but would be bothered by a lot of the Nazi imagery if it was done very realistically.

It's obviously a touchy subject, and something that's going to vary depending on who you play with/against, and also greatly on how you present your army and theme. Once again, starting out with "when minis go too far..." is just asking for someone to take offense or to take it the wrong way, imho.

Yet no one has commented on my concept of a soviet themed army using Gulag prisoners(Gulags being responsible for as many deaths as their german cousins the concentration camp) as my penal legion.

I guess they're not as infamous, focusedfire- history is not my strong suit, but I'd never heard of them, so it didn't affect me as I had no idea what they are!

Being Jewish, I could care less, but I've met people that seem to care about gak they don't know two gaks about, and as if they had a spiky rock in their arse all the god damn time.

TBH, I think it would be fine if you avoided any black on the armband, then nobody could say gak.

Lord of battles wrote:THEIR GOD DAMN MINIATURES!

QTF they are just minis.

Stalins purges and his use of Gulags, were right up there with people displaced by the second World War as for reasons why so many russian Jews headed to the HolyLand after WWII.

Russians will quote war casualties of 20 million in WWII, an indeterminate number of which were work camp fatalities.

When The soviets took poland and eastern europe back from the germans they took over the conctration camps and turned some of them into Gulags.

Stalins Gulags were reputed to have caused between 1.5 million(Publicly announced numbers from the kremlin) and 20 million(Estimations based upon another questionable source) deaths. Dissidents, ethnic minorities and peasants were the prime target to send to these work camps.

If I were to guess at the actual I'd figure the number is somewhere in the middle which puts Stalin on close to an equal footing with Hitler. The main difference is that Stalin kept them alive a little longer in a place much colder.

BTW, The Gulags are well know but the numbers are still thought to be suppressed to this day.

I bring this up because there have been other leaders that would be considered just as evil and represented ideologies just as bad as Nazi Germanies but people don't know of them.

Why?

You know, what "Too Far" is, is subjective to everyone.
Yes, there is going to be at least one guy with a stick up his ass saying "YER IG R NAZI'S DON'T YOU KNOW HOW EVILBAD THEY WERE." So a guy makes his mini's look like Nazi's. The Nazi's were innocent children prancing in the meadow holding hands with suspiciously non-ethnic minorities while a rainbow flies out of everyones ass compared to what the Imperium does for gak and giggles. Personally, as long as your army was well modelled and painted, I'd be delighted to play a game against it. But if you plop down a Chaos Daemons Army where your Daemonettes are 6' genitals and your Bloodthirster is a caricature of a Black man eating fried chicken while stepping on your Nurglings modified to look like Obese caricatured Jews? I might have a bit of a problem, as in the kind where I need to smash each and every one of your miniatures as quickly as I can.

@Focusfire...Man, what you said way earlier in this thread about having a Nazi themed army, and then loosing with it had my in stitches!!!

On the idea of going for a soviet style theme IG army...I reckon that would look great, I've always liked the look of them. If Valhallans were in plastic I'd use them to do the same thing!

Honestly dude looking at the arm band it doesn't look bad at all, if anyone gets offended by that they are just babies.

Besides you could just paint them blue and say they are the UN, they never do anything bad...

Doh!

Jihadnik wrote:Besides you could just paint them blue and say they are the UN, they never do anything bad...

Doh!

Yeah, they'd actually have to be proactive about something to fail miserably at it.

Here's a simple test, as I recall, displaying a swatstika is illegal in Germany. If you feel that you could display your army in Germany and not get in trouble, then who's to complain. Since you feel self conscience, you are clearly past your comfort level, so please paint some other colors, ice blue is a very nice contrast to cadian colors, try that.

BTW I did meet someone with a swatstika army, he never played it to my knowledge (worried about the reaction) and eventually painted over the emblems.

darkdm wrote:lude

lewd

darkdm wrote:But these have been produced by a professional grade company and can risk lawsuits and/or loss of business. So what happens when Average Joe decides he wants to model and paint an IG army to look nearly identical to SS Panzer troops from WWII? Or a mural of a naked woman on a Rhino? Or perhaps some nudie Zombies for his Vampire Counts? And for no other reason than they enjoy the way the models will look.

You would need to check your local law - some countries forbid the display of anything relating to the nazi regime, likewise, some states forbid the depiction of nipples in areas that minors can access.

@OP: they're your minis, and you can do what you like.

That said, IMO, you're deliberately, and unnecessarily, treading on Nazi ground with your color and scheme choices as described in your post.

To my mind, it seems what you're really asking is whether people would be cool if you were to field a Early War Nazi German homage army.

At tabletop distances, those armbands are going to look *exactly* like Nazi swastika armbands, and you know it. If I have to get right up to the model to see that the rank insignia is actually a Neo-Nazi pseudo-swastika, that's simply not cool.

When GW takes pains to protest that they're not historicals, nor linked to Real World religion / history, then it's simply not necessary.

If you really must field Nazis, then just play a Waffen SS force Flames and do so honestly and openly. Don't be all coy and pretend that isn't what you're actually doing.


If you don't need to field Nazis, then a palette swap is in order. Bright yellow or orange armbands are just as effectively eye-catching on grey. Or you can swap the uniform from grey to olive drab green. Or, you can move away from Nazi-style armbands to use contrasting shoulderpads or helmets, like most IG players do.

Given the sheer infinite variety of non-Nazi options out there, deliberately going out of your way to ape the Nazi German army design and colors cannot be interpreted as anything but a homage.


Yes, I know this probably isn't the answer you wanted to hear. Yes, I know it's toy soldiers. Nevertheless, you asked the question, and this is my answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luthon1234 wrote:I have a feeling that you don't like Flames of war then. I don't get it people play as evil vampire's, sadistic demon worshiping fanatics but oh man hes got a swastika on a model that guy must be in a Nazi supporter!

The difference is that a Swastika on a Flames model is historically accurate, whereas in 40k, it's simply gratuitous.

Putting a RL-historical swastika on a 40k model is really no different than painting a giant "FUC* YOU" on it.

Yes, they're your models, and you can do offensive things with them.

Doesn't mean that you should, or that they're fit for general public play.

But it depends on what fluff you wish to bring to your army
As was mention there is a Nazi like company of IG's and it would emphasise the political flavour to use red, white and black.

Genocide is commited by the Imperium on those who they say don't follow their ideology. They are supposed to be the good guys.

That armband would be fine imho. But unless you wish to portray a company that has dubious ideologies I would do as Ritides says and get rid of the red. The colours are deeply associated with Fascism and the Nazis in particular.

Has anyone suggested trying to check out DKoK colour schemes and heraldry, rank insignias etc?

Should have thought of this last night when I posted rather than get sucked in.

I dont know if this was previously stated, but, consider the fact that historical models. World War 2 models to be exact, are entirely accurate representations of the SS, Nazi, and even Hitler. These companies produce these not only in an effort to resemble historical figures and times, but to be painted and displayed. I love doing German armor from time to time, have quite a lot of tanks. I was always a bit hesitant of doing a nazi flag to hand over some, but it is HISTORICALLY accurate.

In my opinion Warhammer is no different, especially if your not doing any Nazi symbolism.

Some may be offended, but then they would have to be offended by entire corporations for producing the real german officers and nazi regime in 1/35 scale. Companies like Verlinden, Tamyia, Dragon, jaguar. HUGE corporations that have been around longer than even GW.

As mentinoed before in this tread, its you stuff. Do what you please, and ask other people who have issues with that to frakk of. After all its minis, not real humans

Very few if any companies will actually produce kits with swastikas afaik. Certainly don't for aircraft. One of the main reasons being export to Europe. In Germany the display of that cross is illegal unless in a specifically historical context. iirc, for some reason, display on models doesn't count as histoical context.

brush_slip wrote:I dont know if this was previously stated, but, consider the fact that historical models. World War 2 models to be exact, are entirely accurate representations of the SS, Nazi, and even Hitler. These companies produce these not only in an effort to resemble historical figures and times, but to be painted and displayed. I love doing German armor from time to time, have quite a lot of tanks. I was always a bit hesitant of doing a nazi flag to hand over some, but it is HISTORICALLY accurate.

In my opinion Warhammer is no different, especially if your not doing any Nazi symbolism.

Some may be offended, but then they would have to be offended by entire corporations for producing the real german officers and nazi regime in 1/35 scale. Companies like Verlinden, Tamyia, Dragon, jaguar. HUGE corporations that have been around longer than even GW.

There are NO minis of Hitler his top echelon or his cronies amongst the work of the companies you mention.

Wermacht and SS vehicles and units, yes (But no SS Sonder Kommandos). The architects of Sobibor, Treblinka, Auschwitz? no.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Very few if any companies will actually produce kits with swastikas afaik. Certainly don't for aircraft. One of the main reasons being export to Europe. In Germany the display of that cross is illegal unless in a specifically historical context. iirc, for some reason, display on models doesn't count as histoical context.

I don't think it can be displayed on minis. Game sites based out of Germany ask that images of minis/artworks with the Swastika and other associated imagery be edited to remove them.

Jaguar models Here, hitler and his right hand man.

Verlinden DOES have one as well.

brush_slip wrote:Jaguar models Here, hitler and his right hand man.

Verlinden DOES have one as well.

Bloody hell! I apologise.

I have never really had cause to to look for these before.

Its ok, you find a lot when you get into military modeling.

Taking this further then could people have a problem with my Imperial Guard Marauder painted up in sort of RAF Night bomber scheme, it has the typival black underside with dark green and dark brown upper surfaces and the vertical fins are yellow. Bomber command commited its own atrocities, just look at the fire bombing of Dresden.

I also have a Thunderbolt done up in a highly polished silver finish with a blue nose area like a famous WWII Mustang unit.

Hi Brush Slip

Interestingly a quick google shows Hitler had the arm band on his unifrom, but this has been ommited.

Goering obviously thought the armband would clash with the colour of his coat.

Aye up Ollie! Are you saying the IG's have B-26's and P-47's?!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Aye up Ollie! Are you saying the IG's have B-26's and P-47's?!

Nope Lancasters and P51s.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Hi Brush Slip

Interestingly a quick google shows Hitler had the arm band on his unifrom, but this has been ommited.

Probably so that they can display the web page in Germany.

Same reason a lot of PC games omit the Swastika, which, ironically, is actually a Hindi symbol. Guess any German Hindus will have to get by without it.

brush_slip wrote:Jaguar models Here, hitler and his right hand man.

Verlinden DOES have one as well.

I think I've just found some objective markers..

The swastika is older than Hinduism
by a very long way

Only unPC games have swastikas

JohnHwangDD wrote:@OP: they're your minis, and you can do what you like.

That said, IMO, you're deliberately, and unnecessarily, treading on Nazi ground with your color and scheme choices as described in your post.

To my mind, it seems what you're really asking is whether people would be cool if you were to field a Early War Nazi German homage army.

At tabletop distances, those armbands are going to look *exactly* like Nazi swastika armbands, and you know it. If I have to get right up to the model to see that the rank insignia is actually a Neo-Nazi pseudo-swastika, that's simply not cool.

...

If you don't need to field Nazis, then a palette swap is in order. Bright yellow or orange armbands are just as effectively eye-catching on grey. Or you can swap the uniform from grey to olive drab green. Or, you can move away from Nazi-style armbands to use contrasting shoulderpads or helmets, like most IG players do.

The color scheme was chosen for an urban camo. And I'm pretty sure the symbol on the sample armband I provided was that of a US Army Sergeant, not some neo-nazi symbology. The symbol would correspond with RANK of the figure, so would change a lot through the army.

And again, the army is not nazi themed.

But thank you for the mention of orange. I had not even thought about using it and I do believe you're right in that it will also do a fine job standing out. I'll give it a try as well, because should give me the effect I want without stepping on anyone's toes.

darkdm wrote:But thank you for the mention of orange. I had not even thought about using it and I do believe you're right in that it will also do a fine job standing out. I'll give it a try as well, because should give me the effect I want without stepping on anyone's toes.

Well, you might anger Nazi-lovers then, as Orange was the colour of the armbands worn by Dutch Resistance

All kidding aside, I just want to see some pictures!

I don't see the big deal. I mean, the Imperial Guard already resembles the Red Army of that time period and we all know that Stalin was not exactly a nice guy. Also, I'd find it ironic for someone to hate on an army that somewhat resembles nazis when everyone loves the DKoK models... hell, you can even PLAY as nazis in FoW. All in all, any intelligent gamer would probably be perfectly fine with it.

Seriously people, is the problem the colours or people wanting to claim a direct personal tie to something that I doubt anybody who currently plays experienced personally?

So no problem when I make a bright pink Nazi army with the swastikas then. Right?(Got the idea ftom the Hello kitty comment from the other page.)

SamplesoWoopass wrote:All in all, any intelligent gamer would probably be perfectly fine with it.

The problem we're having is that there are plenty of un-intelligent gamers that wouldn't be fine with it. It's too bad Natural Selection can only kill off so many idiots every year. Methinks the world would be a much happier place without folks being over-sensitive about everything under the sun.

RiTides wrote:I guess they're not as infamous, focusedfire- history is not my strong suit, but I'd never heard of them, so it didn't affect me as I had no idea what they are!

Soviet atrocities are no where near as infamous because they were a part of the winning side during the war. We all know that history is written in the perspective of the winners. The bottom line is that the Soviets under Stalin killed at least 20 million in their camps, which is as much as 8 million more than the Nazis. The Chinese under Mao put between 40-60 million to death.

I would have no problem facing an army painted like any of these big three badies of modern history, so long as my opponent was spouting off racist rhetoric whichever fascist empire his troops were representing.

A friend of mine did his steel legion IG army in the style of the Confederate States of America. He is a history buff and is a huge fan of General Robert E. Lee. His army contains 3 squads of rough riders to represent Lee's cavalry. They were beautiful conversions made from empire outriders. He has a fantastic tattered banner painted up like the stars and bars. In certain contexts some people can be offended by seeing the confederate flag, but not really at the game table. It's a really nice looking historically inspired army that is a pleasure to look at across the table.

I've heard tell, second-hand, of an Empire army that used all halfling models painted black and modified a bit, carrying around banners that were a big white-teeth/black-lips image on a watermelon. 'Pygmies'.

Too far?

SamplesoWoopass wrote:I don't see the big deal. I mean, the Imperial Guard already resembles the Red Army of that time period and we all know that Stalin was not exactly a nice guy. Also, I'd find it ironic for someone to hate on an army that somewhat resembles nazis when everyone loves the DKoK models... hell, you can even PLAY as nazis in FoW. All in all, any intelligent gamer would probably be perfectly fine with it.

Lolwut?

Death Korps of Krieg are modeled after WW1 French forces, with a touch of the Kaiser's troops in there. There's no "Nazi" influence in there.

And how in the hell do the Imperial Guard in any way, shape, or form resemble the Red Army? They both use masses of troops.

My God, stop the presses. It's almost like there's no armies in the world that have massive numbers of troops.

For me I could care less if someone does a Space Nazi's conversion comeplete with swastikas and a Hitler company comander...as long as it's done well On the other hand if they come in with a vanilla Ultramarines army, but are sporting Brotherhood tats I'll probably elect not to play them. For me it's about the player, not the minis.

I dont care As long as there re no swasticas or ss badges everyone should be cool

Somewhat related: GW specifically prohibits the use of any models in their store or tournies that display any sort of Nazi symbolism. Yes, this even includes the old Ork Stormboys with the SS symbol-looking "lightning bolts" on their hats.

I can't help but remember that Simpsons episode with Sideshow Bob printing out the 'Die Bart Die' license plates and when being quizzed on it, he says, 'No, that was just, The Bart, The!'

No one that speaks german could be bad!

Mr. Burning wrote:

brush_slip wrote:I dont know if this was previously stated, but, consider the fact that historical models. World War 2 models to be exact, are entirely accurate representations of the SS, Nazi, and even Hitler. These companies produce these not only in an effort to resemble historical figures and times, but to be painted and displayed. I love doing German armor from time to time, have quite a lot of tanks. I was always a bit hesitant of doing a nazi flag to hand over some, but it is HISTORICALLY accurate.

In my opinion Warhammer is no different, especially if your not doing any Nazi symbolism.

Some may be offended, but then they would have to be offended by entire corporations for producing the real german officers and nazi regime in 1/35 scale. Companies like Verlinden, Tamyia, Dragon, jaguar. HUGE corporations that have been around longer than even GW.

There are NO minis of Hitler his top echelon or his cronies amongst the work of the companies you mention.

Wermacht and SS vehicles and units, yes (But no SS Sonder Kommandos). The architects of Sobibor, Treblinka, Auschwitz? no.

Guten Tag!

Kanluwen wrote:Death Korps of Krieg are modeled after WW1 German forces, with a touch of the Kaiser's troops in there. There's no "Nazi" influence in there.

Fix'd for ya

But yes, no "Nazi" amongst the Kreig. The M35 tyle helmet was adopted around the midpoint of the first world war. I think that's where folks are confusing Kreig with Nazis. Suprisingly, most folks still think that WWI German Troops used the Kaiser Helmet as standard iss right up to the end of the war. Fact is, it was pretty much confined to parade grounds when the new design came out

hungryp wrote:Somewhat related: GW specifically prohibits the use of any models in their store or tournies that display any sort of Nazi symbolism. Yes, this even includes the old Ork Stormboys with the SS symbol-looking "lightning bolts" on their hats.

This is all the motivation that most of us need to make just such an army.


What do you guys think, "Pink Hello Kitty Nazis or Raindow Care Bear Nazis?

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:I've heard tell, second-hand, of an Empire army that used all halfling models painted black and modified a bit, carrying around banners that were a big white-teeth/black-lips image on a watermelon. 'Pygmies'.

You sure those weren't the OOP Citadel Pygmies from way back when?

But yeah, it's gratuitous.

I'd love to see what happens after the event if he gets paired up with the right opponent.

I think there's a difference between having models looking a bit like nazis and actually painting swastikas on your imperial guard. Having vaguely nazi like symbolism is ok, hell a fair bit of imperial stuff is like that before you start painting it. But why would someone specifically choose to paint swastikas on their models? It's far too fluff breaking and would always look like it was done to shock rather than anything else. There's no kind of clever inspiration going on, it's not particularly insightful, it's just trying to be controversial for the sake of it. Not cool. I think there's a clear difference between having an army that reflects WW2 german styles and one which the person has painted swastikas on it. In science fiction the bad guys often look like nazis because they are a shorthand for evil, but they don't actually wear swastikas it should be more thoughtful than that. Someone painting swastikas straight onto their figures for a reaction from other players is deeply childish, like the kid that smirks at his own farts as he inflicts them upon others.

Mr. Burning wrote:

brush_slip wrote:Jaguar models Here, hitler and his right hand man.

Verlinden DOES have one as well.

Bloody hell! I apologise.

I have never really had cause to to look for these before.

I though Tamiya did do one in plastic in a pack with some other figures, he was wearing a trench coat as though he's visiting troops in the field.

Also...

Andrea Miniatures do an Adolph Hitler

Hasegawa did Hitler in his car in 1/72nd, still available now but they don't include the swastikas.
http://gregers.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=11245&sid=1db4959e9849303daddd29010090074e

I also have this old and rare kit in 1/35th.
http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/tilt/kit_tilt_merc.shtml

And, though not a plastic kit, I also had a box of Atlantic toy soldiers for a Nuremberg rally!!! No really, look about half way down the page after Mussolini's black shirts but before Chairman Mao...
http://www.toysoldier.freeuk.com/revolt.htm

And finally, West Wind Miniatures do a Hitler.

Mini's are easy, if someone is offended...they don't have to play you!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:I've heard tell, second-hand, of an Empire army that used all halfling models painted black and modified a bit, carrying around banners that were a big white-teeth/black-lips image on a watermelon. 'Pygmies'.

You sure those weren't the OOP Citadel Pygmies from way back when?

But yeah, it's gratuitous.

I'd love to see what happens after the event if he gets paired up with the right opponent.

I am not, in fact, sure. Searched around, saw models of those. Might've been them.

Not that it matters too much either way, heh.

I'm not sure why people keep posting:

They're your miniatures. Do what you want with them.

Obviously, this is true. The player owns these miniatures, and, as such, is able to do what he wants with them. He can paint them in the aforementioned color scheme. He can paint them pink. He can paint them blue. He can throw them in the trash. He can coat them with chocolate, or dog feces, or gold.

I don't think the poster was asking what his legal or moral rights were regarding his miniatures. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Clearly, one is legally permitted to paint anatomically correct images of nude women on your own tanks. One is also clearly legally permitted to paint crass insults on your army banners ("Stick yer army up yer butt!). Clearly, you could convert an entire army of Imperial Guardsmen to fight in the nude (note the existence of such a regiment in a previous edition of the Imperial Guard Codex, penned by Mr. Jervis Johnson, as evidence of same in the canon).

However, one might (if one's head was not up one's own butt), expect such endeavors to generate more friction than other painting and modeling schemes. If your goal is to avoid such drama, you might choose a less controversial art project.

This is not to say that you can't (or even shouldn't) do any of these things. You buy your own models, and your own paint, and spend your own time. If a particular artistic expression is important to you, more important than the friction it might generate, then pursue it.

I don't think anyone, on any side of this issue, should feel confident in assigning moral blame (or moral praise) to someone on the basis of such a modeling choice. You might paint an IG force as Nazis (not what the original poster asked, but...) because you are a fervent adherent of National Socialism. You might paint them that way because you view the Imperium as morally equivalent, and wish to use your modeling and painting skills to bring up such a consideration. You might paint them that way because you want to pick fights and make people uncomfortable. You might just like the color scheme.

You can't tell any of that from the paint job. Claiming you can makes you either a psychic or an idiot.

However, it also doesn't take too much intelligence and social savvy to realize that some imagery is more or less controversial than other imagery. Of course you have the right, both legally and morally, as far as I am concerned, to paint your models the way you want.

Other people ALSO have the right to find such paint jobs offensive, disturbing, or awesome. They have the right to speak to you about this (free speech) and the right to choose to play against you, or to choose NOT to play against you.

If your goal is to have an army which will engender less controversy and less missed games, don't choose a controversial modeling scheme. If your goal is to have a controversial scheme, go for it. If your goal is not to create controversy, but you feel you must use a controversial scheme, well, go into the job with your eyes open. If I walk into a bar in Alabama with a hat that says "Up yours, redneck" on, it doesn't justify me getting a beating, but I can't expect a quiet drink, either.

one is legally permitted to paint anatomically correct images of nude women on your own tanks.

That would be a first!
never seen an anatomically correct woman, clothed or otherwise, painted on a military vehicle. Ever.

Hope to see a discussion containing things like this..



Sadly this threads about minis being almost nazi.

Its really sux that the nazis ruin a cool set of colours and the hindi symbol and all that.

IMO I would steer clear of the armbands. If you look at the crybaby ruckus caused by the dancing bear mini you will see people aren't actually rational about minis. This thread is an aberration I tells ya. Since you say you care what people think I would avoid the armband similarities.

Sad but true.. Blame Hitler.

Apparently Stalin as an upstanding guy though.

Because a red star army isn't offensive at all for some reason. (I saw one in white dwarf waaaay back)

Just when you thought a barbaric totalitarian regime was unpalatable...
Shaman brings us kitsch.

I will never complain about genocide ever again.

IMO-
The colors red white and black by themselves are fine... your suggested image with 3 black V's would also be fine and playable within any rules.
If you were in-fact suggesting using a swastika, your question alone suggests- you don't have muscle to back yourself if someone should take offense and such a situation could end badly for you...
In general glorifying mass genocide is a bad idea...

Slightly off topic - I don't understand the "no nipple" mentality at all and i never will...
From what I know of our history, I really fail to make the connection as to how we have come to be such a bunch of prudes...
Perhaps it comes from the homophobes?

As it is, do you consider the picture above pornographic?
Would you if it was modeled with bare breasts?

I rate this thread 10/10 for being thought provoking and conversation generating
although the idea of the thread 1/10 simply because you could use a plausible alternative (like an iron cross or a different color) depending on your initial actual intentions...

my 3.5c

I'm going to say it one last time. The army is not nazi themed. I picked the colors red, white, and black for the armband because they work well with the greys that already exist on my models.

In an effort to help get this point across to people I play, I've decided that if I do the armbands I will only have them on models that carry a rank above private (so sergeants would have it) and paint WWII style murals on the sides of my tanks and vendettas.

I won't have an iron cross because it doesn't work with my army. I won't have a swastica because it won't work with my army. I was never trying to make it look nazi like.

The symbol on the sample armband provided is that of a Sergeant in the US Army. That's it, nothing more, and nothing less. The symbol will change from model to model depending on rank. For instnace (since I don't know how clear I made this), the Sergeant will have his "three V's" and a Lieutenant will have his "double bars".

Also, it had been brought to my attention that Orange may be a viable option for armbands instead of red. I will paint up both colors and show the armband-less version. I will (should have?) have acess to a camera later tonight and will be able to post pictures. I will also post a picture of one of my vehicles so it makes more sense as to why I had originally chosen red instead of orange.

darkdm wrote:The army is not nazi themed. I picked the colors red, white, and black for the armband because they work well with the greys that already exist on my models.

I've decided that if I do the armbands I will only have them on models that carry a rank above private (so sergeants would have it) and paint WWII murals on the sides of my tanks and vendettas.

Also, it had been brought to my attention that Orange may be a viable option for armbands instead of red.

Perhaps not, however, when you talk about a grey army wearing a red armband with a black-on-white insignia, early war Nazis are exactly what comes to mind. In the future, maybe consider post a pic of what you're thinking from the start?

OK, *why* armbands? If you're only doing officers, why not contrasting shoulderpads? They're larger and easier to see, especially for the player (you).

Orange can go very bright, brighter than red, depending on which shade you use.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Perhaps not, however, when you talk about a grey army wearing a red armband with a black-on-white insignia, early war Nazis are exactly what comes to mind. In the future, maybe consider post a pic of what you're thinking from the start?

OK, *why* armbands? If you're only doing officers, why not contrasting shoulderpads? They're larger and easier to see, especially for the player (you).

Orange can go very bright, brighter than red, depending on which shade you use.

I didn't have pictures from the get go because of camera issues and not wanting to paint on any armbands yet, as I wanted to know what people thought about the idea.

Also, it's armbands because they're easy to paint/model (paint moreso than model) on already finished models. Also, I like the squad/regiment numbering system on one shoulder pad so I can tell my squads apart without haivng to flip the models over, and the army symbol on the other shoulder pad. And I feel that the same color shoulder pad in a squad gives it a better flow through the squad and unifies it better. The armband fits easy on the sleeve beneath the shoulder pad, and will still allow me to pick out officers in the squad more easily (I have particular difficulty disscerning my Vet sergeants from the rest of the Vets, as they are armed exactly the same).

And again, the orange works, the only issue I have with it is that I have a red stripe down the side of my chimeras and other tanks, and a white army marking on it. The eye on the army symbol is filled in with black, and looks good. And the orange and red will not match well together.

Again, pictures forthcoming later tonight, assuming my brother has no delays at the airport.

@ Shaman:
We would, except no one would complain at all about it if I put murals with yet even less "clothing" (as per WWII) on the sides of my tanks because 1) It makes my army not nazi like anymore and therefore apperantly has no place in the thread, even thought I had asked about something similar in my first post, and 2) Because a lost fewer people are offended by nudity/scantily cladness then swasticas, and it therefore doesn't provoke much argument.

I personally think that the soul grinder you posted is amazing, but had you asked me 4 years ago what I'd thought of it, I probably would have been a little put off by it.

darkdm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, *why* armbands? If you're only doing officers, why not contrasting shoulderpads? They're larger and easier to see, especially for the player (you).

Also, it's armbands because they're easy to paint/model (paint moreso than model) on already finished models. Also, I like the squad/regiment numbering system on one shoulder pad so I can tell my squads apart without haivng to flip the models over, and the army symbol on the other shoulder pad. And I feel that the same color shoulder pad in a squad gives it a better flow through the squad and unifies it better. The armband fits easy on the sleeve beneath the shoulder pad, and will still allow me to pick out officers in the squad more easily (I have particular difficulty disscerning my Vet sergeants from the rest of the Vets, as they are armed exactly the same).

OK, how about simply inverting or rotating the Squad colors on the shoulderpad for the Officers? Same colors, but you can instantly see which is which.

How about he test paints one and posts the pictures.
Problem with asking about this sort of thing is that without pictures some peoples minds will make it worse than what it is.

Its sort of like how the comic book the crow was accused of being hyper violent when it actually depicted very little violence. The author intentionally left it where the action happened in the mind. His stated reason for doing such was thay he couldn't come up with anything worse than what was already in the human imagination.

And to add. the DKOK army basically look like a bunch of WWII nazis in gasmasks.

what you're doing could be taken badly, but I really doubt that. It is just a wargame after all.

and if someone gives you grief, just say well here is your opportunity to blast them to bitz!

DKOK look nothing like WW2 Germans.

darkdm wrote:

The symbol on the sample armband provided is that of a Sergeant in the US Army. That's it, nothing more, and nothing less. The symbol will change from model to model depending on rank. For instnace (since I don't know how clear I made this), the Sergeant will have his "three V's" and a Lieutenant will have his "double bars".

The "V's" are called Chevrons.

LT's only have 1 bar, CAPTAINS are double bars.

If you want to paint them up as Nazi's, go right ahead.

I for one though want to see some more of that Slannish action.


I used to have an army of Ork YOOF's that were dressed up with the grey uniforms, the stormtrooper helmets, and had jump packs. I didn't even think to put the armbands on them, the white circle with the lightning bolt was good enough.

Best assault army I had and did plenty of slapstick damage, between themselves and the jet packs.

Tell them to feth off. You paid your money, you can paint what you want them to be.

As for all of the hand wringing, pfft. whatever.

Undead Nazi's, Commies, Krauts, Nips, VC, hadgies, or whoever or whatever are cool. If they are supposed to be nazis, you better have something other then the whole shock value shtick.

Personnally, I can see black uniforms, red berets, and white circles with the lightning bolts, too. I have a squad of old school stormtroopers painted up exactly like this. The 40K guys make horrible nazis, though. If your going to pull something like that, your best bet is to get some of those Secrets Of The Third Riech heads and put them in there. Or even better, go play some WW2, Wierd War 2, pulp, or some other game. 40K is kinda... odd, to be talking about some guys as petty as Nazis.

Hell, we will exterminate a planet if we don't like you. Prison camp, whats that? Burn the heritic, Kill the mutant, Purge the alien.

And if they are too tough for the IG, we send in a brotherhood of Space Marines that will kill everything in the place. If they don't do the trick, It's time to bring out the big guns and send in Grey Knights, Deathwatch, or the Inquisition can come knocking. To me, nazi nerdrage doesn't even fit in the conversation. I'm a big boy, now. No one owes me a thing, if you wanted to put yamica's on them and give them an Ark of the Coventnat for doomsday device, I would have to see it, if the paint job was cool, I might even take that idea and run with it.


40K guys , when put in the perspective of this conversation, can be any style you want, but if you go put something like "Hello Kitty " heads, or painting them up as outright Nazi's Commies, VC, or insurgents, you had better come to the table with an either balls out outstanding paintjob like the ones on military gaming miniatures, or some of the 1/35th Shepard Paine paint jobs. Sometimes, in the grand scheme, just painting them up trying to be rebelious, or just trying to be provacitive can backfire.

Then you get a bunch of bad copies of your paintjob, and a whole pack of hitler yoof that think that you are the rallying cry for caveman.

Just being offensive isn't even in the question, then. All you end up doing is upsetting the natural order of your game club and unintentionally, or intentionally start stuff you really didn't intend. If your going to paint up some nazi's, though. Get it right or don't waste your time.


I suggest that you go back, rethink your paint scheme, and come back with an improvement with something like blood red uniforms, black helmets, and grey arm bands, maybe? Black armbands with a white circle and a blood red lightning bolt? even brown uniforms, black helmets, with white armbands with red markings.
Just be original, or if you are going to do it, do it with a little class, and take time with it. The outright nazi angle though, even if painted up to a top notch standard will more then likely get you some static, but they are your minis. YOU are the final standard as to how you want them.

There was a thread like this one where the guy really did paint up a army like Nazi's, and even though the paintjob was great, the whole scheme really didn't fit and made the guy who did it really look foolish.

Do what thou whilt, though.

What did you use for the Slannish pleasure... er beast.

I want one of those.

On a quick note, no one has said anything about playing against an army they find offensive at a tourney, which is the big reason I even started this topic. Also, I've changed the name of the thread to better suit my army, as that seems to be the topic of disscussion...

So I finally got access to a camera, so pictures do accompany this post. Forgive the quality of painting on the guys, I pulled out guys I did not care about because I’m still in the process of figuring out whether I’m going to do this. Also, I wanted to check at my FLGS first to see if anyone I normally play with would get offended. Because I play with them all the time, I actually care if one of them gets offended.

One more time, because people don’t understand:
The army is not Nazi themed. It was never intended to be Nazi themed. There will not ever be iron crosses or swastikas on this army because it doesn’t make sense for the army to have them. It doesn’t fit my army’s fluff to make them Nazis. The original grays have existed on the models for some time. I’ve been thinking about adding armbands that display rank symbols so I could help distinguish models within a unit from each other, because (while not shown on the models pictured) both shoulder pads already have images or numbers on them. The colors red, white, and black were chosen because they add a nice contrast to the existing paint scheme and still let the marking pop. Also, I’ve decided that if I do armbands, it will only be on minis with a rank of Sergeant or higher, as to keep the number of them lower so it looks less Nazi like, in addition to doing WWII style murals on the sides of my tanks and Vendettas so that it looks more “American”.

Explanation of the pictures:
>Picture 1- It’s a group shot. You can’t really see the armbands on the two guys that have them, but it shows that all of them carry the same scheme.
>Picture 2- Group shot showing the left arm, the first guy has a red armband, the second has an orange, and the third has none.
>Picture 3- Single shot of the red armband. The freehanded Sergeant’s chevrons are not good, but you can tell what they are.
>Picture 4- Single shot of the orange armband. Same as pic 3, not great, but you can tell it’s chevrons.
>Picture 5- Single shot of the guy without an armband, for comparison.
>Picture 6 and 7- My (not great) chimera. I’m showing it because the red stripe and dragon head on the vehicle were there before I had even thought about armbands…hence why I had chosen red, white, and black for the armbands. If anyone calls this tank remotely nazi-like…

Even though I take no offense to the Nazi-ish thing, I personally think that the narrow-minded PC types would have a problem.
Perhaps try painting the arm bands onto the shoulder plates or helmets instead.

First off, thanks very much for the pics. It's much clearer what you're doing.

IMO, it'd have been nice if you described them as Cadians with dark grey armor over light grey uniforms. Are you going to paint camo on the uniforms and armor, or are they going to stay flat color?

As far as the armbands go, they don't really look like armbands (looks like a different color sleeve), and the insignia is very hard to see or make out. Especially as they're low on the arm and pointing down.

The stripe on the Chimera is nice, but I'd expect to see insignia on it. Also, it can be orange not too difficult.

As you've got your models & paints out, humor me, and do one of the shoulderpads.

Finally, a thin wash of Devlan Mud would do wonders for your models...

JohnHwangDD wrote:First off, thanks very much for the pics. It's much clearer what you're doing.

IMO, it'd have been nice if you described them as Cadians with dark grey armor over light grey uniforms. Are you going to paint camo on the uniforms and armor, or are they going to stay flat color?

Did

darkdm wrote:
As a reiteration, it’s not a Nazi themed army. The guardsmen are painted with a light grey for the fatigues and a darker grey, almost black, for the flak armor. The idea is to put red/white arm bands on guys to help denote rank on some guys. The symbol on the arm band would be black, but it’d be the symbol of rank corresponding to that particular model. Turns out, my phone hates my computer and doesn’t transfer the (crappy) pictures, so when I have access to a camera, I’ll put up some pictures.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
As far as the armbands go, they don't really look like armbands (looks like a different color sleeve), and the insignia is very hard to see or make out. Especially as they're low on the arm and pointing down.

The stripe on the Chimera is nice, but I'd expect to see insignia on it. Also, it can be orange not too difficult.

As you've got your models & paints out, humor me, and do one of the shoulderpads.

Finally, a thin wash of Devlan Mud would do wonders for your models...

Again, the models are not well painted and I don't care much about them, hence why they've been used as test models.

I'll humor you, but please remember that both shoulder pads on my other models are already filled with symbols and numbers. Pics forthcoming tomorrow (late here with work in the morning).

The insignia on the armbands is rank. It's not the army symbol, which is what the dragon head on the chimera is. The chimera won't have a rank insignia because it's a vehicle, nor an armband because (it has no arms ) I don't need to try to make it pop/discern from the sea of models it's in, it already has the pretty red stripe and is much larger than a guardsmen. I like the red with the grey on the chimera, so orange won't happen there...

One doesn't agree with the idea so are narrow minded PC types?
okay. Will let that slide into the gutter

Hi Darkdm
Likingthe colour scheme a lot.
Thanks for posting the pics.

Personally irrespective of the connotations I would rethink the arm bands idea. My initial reaction is, campaign markings/rank badges would look better on shoulder pads.
I agree with John on that.
Since they are already chocked up with insignia the helmet
would be cool to have rank/campaign insignia. Maybe an orange stripe or similar with chevrins/bars on the forehead.

Secondly they resemble the Nazi armbands and it will be really hard not to associate them with brown shirts and black shirts imho. The imagery is too firmly embedded.

Since you are not wanting a Nazi ideology for your IG's I would ditch it. Also it occured to me yesterday that armbands are usually not worn on battle dress.
The only exception I can think of would be for medics.

BTW your Chimera does have arms, I can see plenty of weaponry

darkdm wrote:In the past, there have been minis that have been labeled as rude, crude, and even lude. most of these models have been done away with for those reasons (the ones I recall right now are Demonettes).

But these have been produced by a professional grade company and can risk lawsuits and/or loss of business. So what happens when Average Joe decides he wants to model and paint an IG army to look nearly identical to SS Panzer troops from WWII? Or a mural of a naked woman on a Rhino? Or perhaps some nudie Zombies for his Vampire Counts? And for no other reason than they enjoy the way the models will look.

My dilema is that I'm working on an IG army, already painted with greys and whitewashed skin, and am thinking about adding arm bands to denote rank on some of the models. The problem is that red, white, and black are the colors I'm considering because they offer a nice contrast to the grey. I would have a red arm band, with a white stripe in the middle wide enough to fit a black rank symbol. I wonder if that's going too far.

I think it's safe to assume that I can bring it to my FLGS if everyone I play against there thinks it's fine. But if I take it to a tournament...

So what I'm asking Dakka:
>When is someone going to far with their conversions/painting?
>If you encountered an army that fits the bill above, what would you do at a tournament?

Easy test: Would you be embarrassed to show it to your grandmother? (if your grandmother is a Nazi, serial killer, or formerly worked for the IRS then this test might not be especially helpful).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Dreadnote wrote:If it looks good, paint it. If anyone complains, slap 'em.

Bad advice. They may slap you back, with a baseball bat.

Even worse, they may have a fully automatic weiner dog in the bag.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

focusedfire wrote:

Tailgunner wrote:This is the kind of attitude that gives wargamers a bad name. The fact is, some images carry a lot of cultural baggage, and the swastika remains one of the most provocative. If you have a personal craving to paint your Imperial Guard as Liebstandarte bodyguard so you can line them up while listening to the Panzerlied, then do it in the privacy of your own home (perhaps with other like-minded individuals). But if you bring them to a store or tournament, don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction from people who just may have lost a relative in a death camp or may be a little less desensitived that you It's not a matter of your God-given right to say anything you like, no matte how crass and stupid, or historical relativism (everyone killed people so anything is okay). It's a matter of recognising that there is a line between referencing historical forces and just being offensive.

I think the dividing line is minis that replicate (say) the SS look and minis which are inspired by it. Black and red uniforms - no problem. 'Ambush' schemes on your tanks and troops in camouflaged smocks - fine. Just stay away from swastikas. Posing them giving the Nazi salute is probably also a bad idea. The same applies to excessive amounts of 'anatomical correctness' on models, or sexually explicit poses. You're just asking for trouble (a lot of kids play this game), and what does it prove? You can suggest that your Dark Eldar or whatever are depraved without having to spell it out in detail.

Would you apply the same rules to a Soviet themed army with gulag prisoners as the penal legion?

More so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

brush_slip wrote:Jaguar models Here, hitler and his right hand man.

Verlinden DOES have one as well.

So the what?

This is a fantasy game. Leave the historical references to historical games.

Shaman wrote:Hope to see a discussion containing things like this..

Oh, where the hell did this come from?!? It's freakin brilliant. I could see this thing as a demon prince leading a whole bunch of demonettes.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Secondly they resemble the Nazi armbands and it will be really hard not to associate them with brown shirts and black shirts imho. The imagery is too firmly embedded.

Since you are not wanting a Nazi ideology for your IG's I would ditch it. Also it occured to me yesterday that armbands are usually not worn on battle dress.
The only exception I can think of would be for medics.

BTW your Chimera does have arms, I can see plenty of weaponry

What are you talking about? The color and look do not scream nazi. Right now they look more like some form of asian prayer flag/divine wind symbol wrapped around the arm. Saying that those models look nazis is like saying a tibetan monk looks like a skinhead.


@darkdm-Now as far as look goes? Do the shoulder pads because the armband thing isn't working and doesn't fit the overall look. Think of it this way, if you are going to void your camo-pattern with a bright mark to make spotting rank easier, then do it not half do it. The chimera looks good but both it and the infantry could go a shade darker in the red department.

I'd also love to see a test model with a similar scheme done on the shoulder pad. That, to me, would also lay to rest any connotations of it being similar to the Nazi uniform.

Lots of people have weighed in here, but in the end it's up to you and what you like! It's smart to avoid the whole debate, though, and I think doing it as a shoulder pad would accomplish both that, and look better, too!

I love your tanks. The red stripe adds a LOT!

Cheers
RiTides

What are you talking about? The color and look do not scream nazi. Right now they look more like some form of asian prayer flag/divine wind symbol wrapped around the arm. Saying that those models look nazis is like saying a tibetan monk looks like a skinhead.

The Red is closer to the Nazi armbands in hue.
The orange one is close to a vermillion. It is at the red end of the orange range.
It is sufficiently close to evoke the Nazi armbands.

Buddhist robes are saffron. At the yellow end of the orange spectrum.
Monks are swathed in saffron robes so even in 28mm replicas are unlikey to throw up associations with Kristallnacht.

Finally, "what are you talking about?" comes across as being impolite and confrontational. A simple request for clarification of my opinion would have been preferable.
I did not say they scream Nazi. I said that the armbands are sufficiently close to Nazi armbands- remember that they are on scale minis so the warmer orange will probably register as Nazi style- many people will make associateions due to the iconography being so strongly embedded in our minds.

The final call is with the OP. But he has asked for opinions and I have tried to offer a rational opinion in an emotive topic.

Think outside of the black/grey/white/red box and add some unique color to the army, or, failing that, you could shave imperial eagle off of the helmets and GS rank insignia in its place for your sergeants.

EDIT: The armbands would be the last method of identifying rank, just because they don't look good.

I have no problems with the pictured IG troops.

Frankly, I'm having a hard time linking them to nazi's or the SS.

To me, and bear in mind this is a criticism I make imagining I'd seen the army for the first time without having heard about it... the first thing I'd think is, 'this guy messed up painting his swastikas, perhaps he should have used a transfer'.

That said, I see swastikas, red five-pointed stars, blue six-pointed stars, skull'n'crossbones and the Greens Party as all being similarly associated with groups of people who have done quite illogical and violent things to other groups of people who were simply minding their own business. I wouldn't paint an army with swastikas on it, and I don't care if you do... but frankly, yes, the test models you have provided look like they have armbands with little badly painted swastikas on them.

I think others have hinted at it, but here's a flat statement. Regardless of the Ideology of armies such as the Nazi's, for all purposes they look cool.

The iconography and colors of the armies make for interesting looking models. This was actually a specific goal of the Germans in WW2.

Most gamers I've known in the past, wouldn't care, if it was painted well and converted, they'd probably love it.

Iif you are in a area like my current local game region I wouldn't suggest it, it seems many of the gamers here have very "wussy" sensibilities. Not so at the game store that closed down, too bad.

The derogatory comments about people that can see the problems that could arise are wearing a tad thin.

There is nothing wussy about objecting to Nazi paraphenalia. As winessed by the poor bastards that got their windows and heads kicked in objecting to it back in the 1930's.

If you cannot make connections with the ideology that is up to you. But there is no need for the name calling just because someone objects.

Read what the OP says.

The army is not Nazi themed. It was never intended to be Nazi themed. There will not ever be iron crosses or swastikas on this army because it doesn’t make sense for the army to have them. It doesn’t fit my army’s fluff to make them Nazis.

They look like Nazi armbands.
If you find that cool fine, that is your opinion. But again don't insult people just because they are suggesting that there is too strong a resemblence to Nazi armbands.

Either way as I have said above imho it just doesn't work given the OP's brief. There are alternative and better solutions for rank ID. As stated it is up to the OP to choose.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The derogatory comments about people that can see the problems that could arise are wearing a tad thin.

There is nothing wussy about objecting to Nazi paraphenalia. As winessed by the poor bastards that got their windows and heads kicked in objecting to it back in the 1930's.

If you cannot make connections with the ideology that is up to you. But there is no need for the name calling just because someone objects.

Read what the OP says.

The army is not Nazi themed. It was never intended to be Nazi themed. There will not ever be iron crosses or swastikas on this army because it doesn’t make sense for the army to have them. It doesn’t fit my army’s fluff to make them Nazis.

They look like Nazi armbands.
If you find that cool fine, that is your opinion. But again don't insult people just because they are suggesting that there is too strong a resemblence to Nazi armbands.

Either way as I have said above imho it just doesn't work given the OP's brief. There are alternative and better solutions for rank ID. As stated it is up to the OP to choose.

Agreed Chibi.
As note, you want to play historical games, play historical games. 40K is not historical gaming.
One would think common courtesy would steer you clear of items such as this.

Frazzled wrote:
Easy test: Would you be embarrassed to show it to your grandmother? (if your grandmother is a Nazi, serial killer, or formerly worked for the IRS then this test might not be especially helpful).

I have one grandmother that I'd have absolutely no problem showing it to. The other one I find ironic because yes, I wouldn't show it to her. She spent 5 years of her teenage life being pursued by Nazis across southern Germany. I think that it invalidates the test a little, but I digress...

After seeing the models again (after some sleep) and seeing the reactions more people are having upon seeing them, I've decided I'm going to scrap the armbands and try to paint up some shoulder pads. I decided this mostly because it doesn't look nearly as good as I thought (even taking into account that the paint job on the models is sub par), although the reactions from people have also helped that decision.

I'll post up some pictures (much) later today of the two ideas I have for shoulder pads, but the issue is more or less resolved now and I just want to make sure nobody thinks I'm treading on the same ground with the shoulder pads (though I seriously doubt it).

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

What are you talking about? The color and look do not scream nazi. Right now they look more like some form of asian prayer flag/divine wind symbol wrapped around the arm. Saying that those models look nazis is like saying a tibetan monk looks like a skinhead.

The Red is closer to the Nazi armbands in hue.
The orange one is close to a vermillion. It is at the red end of the orange range.
It is sufficiently close to evoke the Nazi armbands.

Buddhist robes are saffron. At the yellow end of the orange spectrum.
Monks are swathed in saffron robes so even in 28mm replicas are unlikey to throw up associations with Kristallnacht.

Finally, "what are you talking about?" comes across as being impolite and confrontational. A simple request for clarification of my opinion would have been preferable.
I did not say they scream Nazi. I said that the armbands are sufficiently close to Nazi armbands- remember that they are on scale minis so the warmer orange will probably register as Nazi style- many people will make associateions due to the iconography being so strongly embedded in our minds.

The final call is with the OP. But he has asked for opinions and I have tried to offer a rational opinion in an emotive topic.

1)You know that by posting the picture of the only known Tibetan skinhead that you have killed any possibility of freeing Tibet.

Also, The caucasian lads look more like anarchists tha skinheads, at least from the looks of their flags and pins. They have too much hair to pass for a skinhead in america. . The huys in the picture could possibly be race supremists, but supremists /=skinheads. There is a difference worth noting.


2)My comment about tibetan prayer flags was just that, a comparison to the flags, not the robes the monks wear. Tibetan prayer flags often come with white right next to res with tebetan writing on it that looks like the scrawl on the armbands.


3) Yes the models are small and that combined with the colours would mean that someone someone would have to stretch pretty far past the bounds of logic to make a connection. Here:
a)The colours are all wrong for a german uniform with armband, I have never seen the two tone grey with the red armband. The armband was worn with the brown dress uniforms and by the SS. As far as being worn for combat, I am only aware of the black SS divisions. Here is a link to some german WWII uniforms-
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=wwii+german+uniform+images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=Y4g8TL7nA4L6lwffgtW3Aw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQsAQwAA" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=wwii+german+uniform+images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=Y4g8TL7nA4L6lwffgtW3Aw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQsAQwAA

I would see the sleeves as a unit marking because German black and greys were never worn with the Armband.

b)Because the models are small amd tha armbands only share colour, the potentially offended person would have to work pretty hard to make a connection. Honestly, if they are the type to make that kind of connection then they would have be come upset at the Aquila. While WWII germen two tone grey uniforms didn't have nazi armbands, they did have the nazi eagle. The two are closer to one another than his armbands on two tone grey uniforms. Here are links to pictures of each:

Nazi Eagle-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NSDAP_Reichsadler.svg

Aquila Imperialis-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Imperial_eagle.jpg

Seriously, A red and white armband doesn't push the envelope any further than GW has.


4)"What are you talking about?"is polite dakkaspeak for challenging your statement. No aspersions were made against your character and your calling the question confrontational comes across as you can't handle people disagreeing with you. The question is about as simple and polite of a request as you will normally get here at Dakka. IMO, You are coming across as being overly sensitive here.


5)I never said or implied that you said they screamed nazi(Notice the lack of quotations. You have misconstrued a simple statement of perspective into a false allegation. Really, take a breath and consider that you might be transferring in this case.


6)Please note that I said that the OP should go with a darker red. This was not saying to go with the red armband but that overal darker than what he had shown so far. Why? Because, IMO the colors don't really work together. Now if I was going to encourage him to do something nazi themed then I would have suggested that he change the color scheme to either pure black or khaki brown.


Yes the decision is up to the OP, but I disagree about the topic being emotive. The topic is only emotive if you make the choice to let your emotions control you as opposed to controling your emotions. As has been noted before, it is doubtful that there is anyone involved in this conversation that dealt with this first hand. Claiming a second hand connection doesn't justify an emotional response. Survivors who underwent the trauma and have a right to an emotional response, but if someone wasn't alive to have undergone the ordeal then they have no right assume the emotions of those who did.

Interesting anecdote.

A friend went to England awhile back. He wanted to go to GW HQ.

He explained where he wanted to go, and that he didn't know the address.

The cabbie responded with," Oh, you want the Reichstag."

Evidently, the look of the facility, and the giant Double-Eagle led to the non-gaming populace to make that connection.

So, yeah. I would think the color combination and Aquila would give the connection, but the armband reinforces it.

40k actually is indeed historical gaming. People who call themselves historical gamers in an attempt to seperate themselves from other tabletop gamers... well, it's major league vs. college.
It roughly corresponds to a period of time, which although completely fictional, is presented with a history that is both lavish and occasionally lacking in good detail... just like real life. The fantasy aspect of being able to design one's own army does not mean that it isn't ultimately derived from a human understanding of war and what we would consider to be horrible enemies. Tyranids are horrible and evoke the War of Worlds post-invasion imagery in a much more malevolent way. Orcs are well known in many genres as violent brutes and were simply shoehorned into the future-space-war setting. Imperial Guard, on the other hand, gets very human. Every leader is a dictator, every hill is a meatgrinder, every man a resource to scooped up and thrown desperately into the maw of the oncoming beast... all in the name of humanity represented by a super cool dead guy who is apparently coming back one day. Horrible genocide, corruption, casteing, it's all there, and it's all human. Everyone who plays this game subscribes to it regardless of whether or not they endorse it.

There is an obvious difference - no one is going to look at a Chaos army on a shelf and break out in a cold sweat unless something very, very disturbing had happened to them. We can hope, at least, that we are not upsetting people by either NOT playing armies that look like Nazis, or at least keeping them out of public view like all the proper Nazi collectors do anyway.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:40k actually is indeed historical gaming.

You're right. I completely forgot how the marines stormed the beaches of Iwo Jima, brushing aside the ork defenders, with their new anti Shokk Attack Gun battle armor...

Good work taking that out of the context I put it in and back into the one you had it in, followed by a reference to exactly what I was talking about.

I mean it, Frazzled. You're really good at it and I commend you. Your weiners are also very nice.

I don't really see how you can claim that something is both fictional and actually historical at the same time, sorry you've lost me there completely.

I agree that all forms of tabletop wargames share a basic "ancestor" or root to a certain degree and that we are all interpreting this through our own human perception, but to me that still kind of skirts around the essential and gaping chasm of difference between wargames that actively try and portray a real life historical equivalent and science fiction or fantasy wargames.

I didn't. Don't read Frazzled's quote of my post, read my post.

Every element is interchangable. As a Flames of War player, I know that I can grind my helpless conscripts and tank riders into a German gunline for any old reason, but taking it off the open field and recreating a battle from Stalingrad is so much more fun. I wasn't actually there, so we go off a map of the city square, look at reference as well as movies, etc... in the end it's only what we make of it.

If they are different in any way, it's that you generally don't take Soviets or Nazis or Marines into fantastical space adventure battles, and you can do whatever you want if it's all made up. Excuse me for chopping this up at all. but we are talking about Accidentally Nazis in Space. Yes, that's the gaping chasm. I mean, it's not like there are Jews in space. I hope.

Gonna drop my 2 cents into the conversation...

I'm a historian... going to college to be a history teacher... specializing in WW2 North African and Great War Alps Campaigns... and I can think of loads of places where armbands crop up...

http://www.kellybadge.co.uk/Stock/armbands.htm Here are some...

Does this scream "OMG NAZI!?"

For all the Brits in the audience...

http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/shop/british-militaria/uniform-accessories/genuine-wwii-mp-armband-234642.html My Grandpa was an MP... does the armband really make him look like he committed genocide???

The Nazis did really bad stuff... but for goodness sake, people - most people have...



...plastered all over their IG... and that looks quite a bit like this picture I found on the internet...



... so does that mean all IG players are emulating the Russian Nazi Party?!?

My point is this is a game about little plastic men fighting neverending war. The Inquisition (zealous military force = SS) hunts out members of different religions (Tau, Chaos, Orks, Necrons, etc, etc, etc = Jews) and wipes them off the face of the galaxy. I just drew a correlation between the actions of the Inquisition and the Nazi SS! Does that mean nobody should play against my Sisters and GK because they hate Nazis? Imagery isn't what made the Nazis bad... their beliefs and actions are what made them bad. If you are intentionally emulating their beliefs and actions, then shame on you. If you dig their uniforms, I certainly don't blame you - here's Victoria Beckham sporting a German Grey furry trenchcoat agreeing with us!



***edited for a broken link

If you think the two-headed eagle was an invention of Russian fascists, you should reconsider your labelling yourself as a 'historian'. (sorry if you were just plastering an example)

The imagery is exactly the problem. What they did is exactly what humans have done to each other for millenea. There's very little distinguishing the darker periods in our history but the flags and symbols under which certain actions were committed.

We do use imagery from the Templars and stuff... I mean, there are still living holocaust survivors getting about, and lots of oversensitive offspring. Jews have been killed for being Jews for a very long time, but such a modern symbol of intent against their very lives must be a very oppressive symbol.

The OP perhaps should make his little black squiggle a bit clearer, by recreating it on a large banner carried by the appropriate officer. That way, similar little badges on red armbands can rather be associated with the first thing in the army your eye is drawn to - the big red banner. As long as the symbol on it is very, very clearly not anything like a swastika, you should get away with it clean.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The derogatory comments about people that can see the problems that could arise are wearing a tad thin.

Amen. Perhaps we need moar MOD alerts.
____

darkdm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, it'd have been nice if you originally described them as Cadians with dark grey armor over light grey uniforms.

Did

JohnHwangDD wrote:As far as the armbands go, they don't really look like armbands (looks like a different color sleeve), and the insignia is very hard to see or make out. Especially as they're low on the arm and pointing down.

The stripe on the Chimera is nice, but I'd expect to see insignia on it. Also, it can be orange not too difficult.

As you've got your models & paints out, humor me, and do one of the shoulderpads.

Finally, a thin wash of Devlan Mud would do wonders for your models...

Again, the models are not well painted and I don't care much about them, hence why they've been used as test models.

I'll humor you, but please remember that both shoulder pads on my other models are already filled with symbols and numbers. Pics forthcoming tomorrow (late here with work in the morning).

The insignia on the armbands is rank. It's not the army symbol, which is what the dragon head on the chimera is. The chimera won't have a rank insignia because it's a vehicle, nor an armband because (it has no arms ) I don't need to try to make it pop/discern from the sea of models it's in, it already has the pretty red stripe and is much larger than a guardsmen. I like the red with the grey on the chimera, so orange won't happen there...

Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here. Perhaps if you had taken a little more time at the start, we wouldn't have the mess we have today?

As you can see, iit's hard for people to comment well with a lack of details to work from. You force people to make assumptions which are unnecessary.. It's generally better if you give your commentators more information to work with.

The Chimera should have a number or other ID on it - I mean, your army won't have just a single Chimera in it as the only vehicle in the army, right?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:If you think the two-headed eagle was an invention of Russian fascists, you should reconsider your labelling yourself as a 'historian'. (sorry if you were just plastering an example)

Just an example - saying how a quick google search can yield incorrect assumptions.

If those armbands scream Nazi (which they really don't) I'd hate to think what other connects you guys can make in your minds.

A) German's never wore those bands in battle (The German Army never took on any nazi iconography or symbology what-so-ever - even the SS had it's own set of symbols distinct from the NSDAP ones). This is were the connection really falls flat - someone who actually wanted to make a Nazi style army would do their homework - and as such armbands would not be present as a result.

B) Those black lines look nothing like swastikas.

I honestly wouldn't worry OP. I don't think many will make the connection people have on this forum. They just look nothing like a Nazi armband. If anyone does say anything to you at tournies, just explain in a friendly way why the connection is false.

You shouldn't have to live according to other peoples ignorance IMO. It is their job to educate themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention that the rest of the colour scheme is nothing like the grey/green uniform that wehrmacht and SS soldiers wore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The derogatory comments about people that can see the problems that could arise are wearing a tad thin.

Amen. Perhaps we need moar MOD alerts.
____

darkdm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, it'd have been nice if you originally described them as Cadians with dark grey armor over light grey uniforms.

Did

JohnHwangDD wrote:As far as the armbands go, they don't really look like armbands (looks like a different color sleeve), and the insignia is very hard to see or make out. Especially as they're low on the arm and pointing down.

The stripe on the Chimera is nice, but I'd expect to see insignia on it. Also, it can be orange not too difficult.

As you've got your models & paints out, humor me, and do one of the shoulderpads.

Finally, a thin wash of Devlan Mud would do wonders for your models...

Again, the models are not well painted and I don't care much about them, hence why they've been used as test models.

I'll humor you, but please remember that both shoulder pads on my other models are already filled with symbols and numbers. Pics forthcoming tomorrow (late here with work in the morning).

The insignia on the armbands is rank. It's not the army symbol, which is what the dragon head on the chimera is. The chimera won't have a rank insignia because it's a vehicle, nor an armband because (it has no arms ) I don't need to try to make it pop/discern from the sea of models it's in, it already has the pretty red stripe and is much larger than a guardsmen. I like the red with the grey on the chimera, so orange won't happen there...

Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here. Perhaps if you had taken a little more time at the start, we wouldn't have the mess we have today?

As you can see, iit's hard for people to comment well with a lack of details to work from. You force people to make assumptions which are unnecessary.. It's generally better if you give your commentators more information to work with.

The Chimera should have a number or other ID on it - I mean, your army won't have just a single Chimera in it as the only vehicle in the army, right?

I'm pretty sure S/he didn't ask for your patronising little comments regarding his painting. Do you do that at tournaments too? None of your businesss what he puts on his tanks frankly.

Frazzled wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:40k actually is indeed historical gaming.

You're right. I completely forgot how the marines stormed the beaches of Iwo Jima, brushing aside the ork defenders, with their new anti Shokk Attack Gun battle armor...

lol... i hear they even commemorated the event on holy terra with a statue!

warboss wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:40k actually is indeed historical gaming.

You're right. I completely forgot how the marines stormed the beaches of Iwo Jima, brushing aside the ork defenders, with their new anti Shokk Attack Gun battle armor...

lol... i hear they even commemorated the event on holy terra with a statue!

After looking at the painted models. They look close enough to the real thing, as we/you/I/anyone knew they would be. The armbands, also, look very much out of place on those models. How about a red strip on the model somewhere to match the chimera and call it a day?

To Ollieholmes, if I saw a swatsticka on a model, even on a historically correct model, I would be offended and I would take action (and have). Maybe I'm overly sensitive since I had one painted on my door before. So it may not mean a damn thing to some people, but some people get upset, and there are some people who still promote it; the world has not yet moved on enough.

i don't see a problem with the cadians you have posted. i have in the past and would in the future refuse to play against someone with nazi or WWII german iconography on their armies as they don't belong outside of historical games. flames of war? sure, i'd play against the force. 40k orks/marines/IG? nope (including someone who took the old 2nd edition ork stormboyz and painted them up to match german colors).

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here. Perhaps if you had taken a little more time at the start, we wouldn't have the mess we have today?

As you can see, iit's hard for people to comment well with a lack of details to work from. You force people to make assumptions which are unnecessary.. It's generally better if you give your commentators more information to work with.

The Chimera should have a number or other ID on it - I mean, your army won't have just a single Chimera in it as the only vehicle in the army, right?

Fair enough. I'll be more careful in the future about making sure I explain in more detail the first time.

But I also shouldn't have to edit my first post everytime something changes, so it's kind of frustrating to me that people are still talking about armbands when I've already stated they've already been scrapped. It'd be nice if people read more than just the first post in a thread before commenting. It probably won't happen, but I can wish (and if wishes were horses than beggers would ride).

Tehjonny wrote:
I'm pretty sure S/he didn't ask for your patronising little comments regarding his painting. Do you do that at tournaments too? None of your businesss what he puts on his tanks frankly.

Although I agree with you to a point, JohnHwangDD has every right to ask whatever. To that end, no, there is no number on the Chimera right now. I'm still trying to work out how I want to do the numbers for them (yes, plural). But that's not what we're talking about.

Tehjonny wrote:
A) German's never wore those bands in battle (The German Army never took on any nazi iconography or symbology what-so-ever - even the SS had it's own set of symbols distinct from the NSDAP ones). This is were the connection really falls flat - someone who actually wanted to make a Nazi style army would do their homework - and as such armbands would not be present as a result.

B) Those black lines look nothing like swastikas.

I honestly wouldn't worry OP. I don't think many will make the connection people have on this forum. They just look nothing like a Nazi armband. If anyone does say anything to you at tournies, just explain in a friendly way why the connection is false.

A and B are correct (B is a little more sketchy, but it still doesn't). What I don't agree with is the last part.

I asked on Dakka because I did care about people's opinions. The same goes to everyone else who has told me to essentially told me to "tell everyone who doesn't like it to shove off". While I appreciate the enthusiasm, it's not why I posted. If I felt that way, I would have done what I had wanted and not bothered asking anyone. And by virtue that people on here are making a connection like that, people outside of the internet will make the same connection and (statistics says) it'll be the same percentage of people.

Sazzlefrats wrote:
...if I saw a swatsticka on a model, even on a historically correct model, I would be offended and I would take action (and have). Maybe I'm overly sensitive since I had one painted on my door before. So it may not mean a damn thing to some people, but some people get upset, and there are some people who still promote it; the world has not yet moved on enough.

And that's why I asked. Thank you, Sazzlefrats, for stepping up to the plate and speaking your mind. Knowing there are people out there that have enough of a response to do something about me playing with an army that reminds them of Nazis is enough incentive for me to NOT do the armbands.

Sazzlefrats, now that I know what you think, I'll be particularly intrested to know what you think of my ideas for the shoulder pads when I post pictures.

Edit: Can we keep the emotion to a minimum please? I'd like the thread to last at least long enough for me to post pictures and gets thoughts on shoulder pads. I really appreciate everyone who's kept their cool on here, and think that it's been a decent, intelligible disscussion.

Even looking at the images thinking that there was "supposed" to be a connection to Nazi uniforms... It didn't click. They look like gray fatigues with an armband.

I appreciate that people are sensitive to the Nazi issue but... Wow. I just think it's a stretch.

I was going to say "No, I'd have no problem with it", But after looking at them....That might be offensive....I'm not sure.

I have plenty of jewish friends and I doubt they'd be offended by it. I think that gentiles would be more insulted about it, honestly. Things sometimes work that way*shrugs* It's like someone making a black joke around a black guy, but everyone except the black guy thinks it's racist. Totally wierd.

So, to summarize. Most people wouldn't have any problems with it, but I'm sure you'll get "are they Nazis?" at least once a game. The black symbol basically throws off the whole look,TBH. If the guardsmen were green, it wouldn't look even vaguely resemblant of a nazi symbol

Armbands are a stupid idea, first off.

You have shoulderpads, arms with sergeant chevrons on them, etc. That's what you use for, y'know...rank designators. Alternatively, man-up and learn some freehanding to do rank markers on the helmets.

Secondly:

Anytime your first series of statements is about "I'm worried about someone drawing a connection between XXXX and <insert a regime of evil here>"?
You're too close to the line, and should back off or just rethink your idea period.

Tehjonny wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here.

I'm pretty sure S/he didn't ask for your patronising little comments regarding his painting.

Do you do that at tournaments too? None of your businesss what he puts on his tanks frankly.

That's OK, I'm totallly certain I didn't ask you to reply at all.

If you can't tell when somebody is giving facts or constructive criticism then perhaps t3h Intarwebz are not for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkdm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here. Perhaps if you had taken a little more time at the start, we wouldn't have the mess we have today?

As you can see, iit's hard for people to comment well with a lack of details to work from. You force people to make assumptions which are unnecessary.. It's generally better if you give your commentators more information to work with.

The Chimera should have a number or other ID on it - I mean, your army won't have just a single Chimera in it as the only vehicle in the army, right?

Fair enough. I'll be more careful in the future about making sure I explain in more detail the first time.

But I also shouldn't have to edit my first post everytime something changes, so it's kind of frustrating to me that people are still talking about armbands when I've already stated they've already been scrapped. It'd be nice if people read more than just the first post in a thread before commenting. It probably won't happen, but I can wish (and if wishes were horses than beggers would ride).

It's no biggie - all of us (self included) rush from time to time. It's just that even 1000 words doesn't always make a picture.

Yeah, totally OK not to have to re-edit. Tho in this case, with all the silliness, it wouldn't hurt - I mean, I kinda think the last thing you need is *more* people replying to the just first post, which is now out of date based on all the feedback and discussion and so forth...

BTW, I'm totally cool with the way you're handling yourself here. You inadvertently stirred up a hornet's nest, and for the most part everything is OK. Hang in there!

Kanluwen wrote:Armbands are a stupid idea, first off.

You have shoulderpads, arms with sergeant chevrons on them, etc. That's what you use for, y'know...rank designators. Alternatively, man-up and learn some freehanding to do rank markers on the helmets.

Secondly:

Anytime your first series of statements is about "I'm worried about someone drawing a connection between XXXX and <insert a regime of evil here>"?
You're too close to the line, and should back off or just rethink your idea period.

1) The shoulder pads have already been filled, and so rank markers won't fit. That's why I was thinking armbands in the first place. There are chevrons on the arms for sergeants in the cadian kit...but some of mine are armed with the exact same gear as the rest of their squads, and so don't have the chevron arms. Also, the sergeant heads don't have helmets (on the ones I used them for). The rank marker idea includes my platoon and company commanders too, to keep a uniform theme through the army.

And sorry it wasn't obvious, still working on the freehand skills.

2) If I did my cadians similar to WWII armericans, no one would care. But there are parts of the world where the US is the evil empire...

As other people have stated, I can paint my army however I wish. I want to include something in my army that fits my critera, and was then drawing up the connection. But I still wanted to do something, I just wanted to do it without offending people. Which is why I asked here. If I really was thinking I was going to push the boundry, yes, I'd step back and think "hmmm, perhaps the swastica isn't a good idea for a rank symbol for my sergeants".

Are you suggesting that next time I build a chimera, I should step back and think about putting the aquilla on, as I know plenty of people (including myself) who can draw similarities between the Imperium of Man and various facist regimes through time. And I completely see that as the same argument, I know plenty of people who could draw a connection between spaghetti and genocide, and so could (if they chose to) get offended by sphaghetti. People can be offended by things that most people wouldn't think about. And while I thought that red armbands were ok, it's close to something very emotional to some people.

You know what, I like the colour scheme. I like the way you're going with this. I only have two suggestions to put forward.

A) File off the shoulderpads. Give them a bare-sleeve look. It'll suit them better IMO, and make the armband more visible. I think part of what people are worried about is that it's partially obscured by the pads, and so it might be easily mistaken. Personally I don't care either way, but making the armband clearer and more visible as to it not being the same would probably help curb cries of "OMGWTFNAZIS!!!1!!!1!!!!!one!"

B) Make the armbads out of greenstuff. Right now it does just look like you painted part of his sleeve orange. If you've got a spare arm lying around, practice sculpting an armband on it. I guarantee it'll look a thousand times better if it's actually a seperate item from the sleeve


That's really all I can think of, but they would probably be a huge plus for your army's look. Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong with it. Looks fine to me.

metallifan wrote:You know what, I like the colour scheme. I like the way you're going with this. I only have two suggestions to put forward.

A) File off the shoulderpads. Give them a bare-sleeve look. It'll suit them better IMO, and make the armband more visible.

B) Make the armbads out of greenstuff. Right now it does just look like you painted part of his sleeve orange. If you've got a spare arm lying around, practice sculpting an armband on it. I guarantee it'll look a thousand times better if it's actually a seperate item from the sleeve

Thanks!
I completly agree with the ideas for the armbands (and how it looks). If I was starting the army from scratch, that'd probably sculpt them some armbands out of green stuff and go from there. That being said, it's been mostly assembled (save a Russ or two) up to a large number of points and is pastially painted, so I'd rather not have to strip the paint from the models or fiddle with greenstuff on arms attached to torsos.

I really like the red with the gray (part of the initial problem), so I'm going to see what I can do with it on the shoulder pads. It won't be the same, but it should still acheive what I want.

darkdm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Armbands are a stupid idea, first off.

You have shoulderpads, arms with sergeant chevrons on them, etc. That's what you use for, y'know...rank designators. Alternatively, man-up and learn some freehanding to do rank markers on the helmets.

Secondly:

Anytime your first series of statements is about "I'm worried about someone drawing a connection between XXXX and <insert a regime of evil here>"?
You're too close to the line, and should back off or just rethink your idea period.

1) The shoulder pads have already been filled, and so rank markers won't fit. That's why I was thinking armbands in the first place. There are chevrons on the arms for sergeants in the cadian kit...but some of mine are armed with the exact same gear as the rest of their squads, and so don't have the chevron arms. Also, the sergeant heads don't have helmets (on the ones I used them for). The rank marker idea includes my platoon and company commanders too, to keep a uniform theme through the army.

And sorry it wasn't obvious, still working on the freehand skills.

That's why I just suggested working on freehanding. It's an important skill.

However, it's important to remember that chevrons weren't the only rank markers, especially during WWII in the American armed forces. Look at the Airborne and Rangers for examples. They'd stencil the soldiers' "numbers"(in the case of Airborne, it was the order in which people were jumping, while the Rangers did something similar for Normandy) on the back of the helmet.

Or hell, look at the Clone Troopers from Star Wars. You can immediately spot specialist troopers and officers, simply by dint of the different color stripes on their helmet's centerline.

2) If I did my cadians similar to WWII Americans, no one would care. But there are parts of the world where the US is the evil empire...

If you painted your Cadians similar to WWII Americans, nobody would care because that's basically the exact same color scheme as the Cadian 8th. It's the iconography that is the problem. I can't think of any distinctly American iconography that would really cause people to take offense, outside of maybe the Confederacy flag.

As other people have stated, I can paint my army however I wish. I want to include something in my army that fits my criteria, and was then drawing up the connection. But I still wanted to do something, I just wanted to do it without offending people. Which is why I asked here. If I really was thinking I was going to push the boundary, yes, I'd step back and think "hmmm, perhaps the swastika isn't a good idea for a rank symbol for my sergeants".

You can paint it however you wish, but when you start asking for criticisms or comments you open yourself up to them. I gave you my take on it. Armbands are stupid, when there's so many other ideas you can draw from.

Are you suggesting that next time I build a chimera, I should step back and think about putting the aquilla on, as I know plenty of people (including myself) who can draw similarities between the Imperium of Man and various fascist regimes through time. And I completely see that as the same argument, I know plenty of people who could draw a connection between spaghetti and genocide, and so could (if they chose to) get offended by spaghetti. People can be offended by things that most people wouldn't think about. And while I thought that red armbands were ok, it's close to something very emotional to some people.

People weren't getting upset by the red armbands. It was the fact that, as I said, from a distance...a red armband, with a white circle and black lines looks remarkably similar to something from a touchy area of history that's still used by certain hate groups in the same context.

As for the aquilla....go ahead and leave them off. As you pointed out, they're your models. The double headed eagle has a long history prior to being optioned by the Nazis and Tzars.

Kanluwen wrote:
However, it's important to remember that chevrons weren't the only rank markers, especially during WWII in the American armed forces. Look at the Airborne and Rangers for examples. They'd stencil the soldiers' "numbers"(in the case of Airborne, it was the order in which people were jumping, while the Rangers did something similar for Normandy) on the back of the helmet.

Or hell, look at the Clone Troopers from Star Wars. You can immediately spot specialist troopers and officers, simply by dint of the different color stripes on their helmet's centerline.

True, which was something I was going to explore with the shoulder pads since I've scraped the armbands.

Kanluwen wrote: You can paint it however you wish, but when you start asking for criticisms or comments you open yourself up to them. I gave you my take on it. Armbands are stupid, when there's so many other ideas you can draw from.

Fair enough. But to be fair, you could used another word besides "stupid". Can't say I particularly care for things I do being called stupid (can't think of many people who can ). But yes, you are totally open to criticize. I asked, you answered.

Kanluwen wrote:
As for the aquilla....go ahead and leave them off. As you pointed out, they're your models. The double headed eagle has a long history prior to being optioned by the Nazis and Tzars.

I know it did. Trust me, I love the aquialla, and it doesn't bother me at all. Just because I can draw the connection doesn't mean I care about that connection. That being said, some people probably find it offensive, yet I'm still going to put it on my vehicle. It's a lot more clear cut and easy to "explain away" those that get offended by it, because it's an eagle (used a lot more widely through than the Swastica ever was or could hope to be), most people find it silly to be offended by it. But make, and people will whine about it...especially on the internet.

There's being sensible about it, and there's not. If I thought that red armbands were not sensible or that I was really crossing that line, I would've stepped back and probably not asked about it here on Dakka. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I didn't feel as though I was close enough to the line for me to get a clear cut answer on whether I should do it, and so I would ask others for help. Although I don't agree with everyone, I do appreciate the help it's giving me in helping find that line. Hopefully in the future, I won't have to consult Dakka on some of the "sketchy decisions" I make when painting my models and minis.

About the only thing I could see to complain about with the armbands it that it looks like there is really not quite enough room for them on the models arm below the shoulder armour. Looks like it is on the elbow or scrunched up above the elbow just to fit. Prehaps instead of an elastic type armband, its might truly be a red band on the uniform itself? Actually sewn in? Just a thought. More of a slight changing of the concept (maybe, since that might have been what you were going for all along and I just didnt catch it!) than doing any actual work or repainting.

As far as the concept, all I can say is welcome to dakka in all it's creativity and idiocy. This thread has certainly run the gamut there.

darkdm wrote:
Thanks!
I completly agree with the ideas for the armbands (and how it looks). If I was starting the army from scratch, that'd probably sculpt them some armbands out of green stuff and go from there. That being said, it's been mostly assembled (save a Russ or two) up to a large number of points and is pastially painted, so I'd rather not have to strip the paint from the models or fiddle with greenstuff on arms attached to torsos.

I really like the red with the gray (part of the initial problem), so I'm going to see what I can do with it on the shoulder pads. It won't be the same, but it should still acheive what I want.

No problem. I like seeing armies that push the envelope. I think it helps to break taboos when people push the envelope slightly, without going too OTT. And I think everyone can agree that the world could use fewer taboos.

Now then, it's unfortunate that you've done all of it. Maybe keep it in mind for a future redo? I really think they're essential steps if you really want to get all 100% out of this army's appearance.

Sazzlefrats wrote:...........if I saw a swatsticka on a model, even on a historically correct model, I would be offended and I would take action (and have). Maybe I'm overly sensitive since I had one painted on my door before. So it may not mean a damn thing to some people, but some people get upset, and there are some people who still promote it; the world has not yet moved on enough.

Maybe you are over sensitive. Counceling could help you to overcome this anger issue. I am being serious here, please do not construe this as me making light. If you are being confrontational to strangers over something once painted on a door, you are engaging in a behavior that could potentially be harmful to your self. It is quite freeing when you decide to stop being a victim/survivor and instead just start to live life. Lets leave this alone for now and instead examine the problem with following such a cause and effect pattern.

If we were to follow the line of thought you are expressing here, any of lifes injustices could be used as an excuse to censor anything that You,I or we find bothersome. Look at it like this:

Should I be able to make people to stop having kids because my house gets toilet papered? No.
Should I be able to make someone from a differing religious background take down a holiday display just because someone of their belief once called me a sinner and said I would burn in hell? No.
Should I protest about every minority with a better job than me, because I lost jobs to less qualified individuals under Affirmative action? No.
And lastly, "Should I hate all Germans because my grandparents I never met died in a camp?"


It really bothers me, this assumed pain of our generation. It even bothers me more when it affects free expression and art. Take Mel Brookes for example(Go ahead, read up on his life.)
They recently honoured Mel Brookes accomplishments at the Kennedy Center. They did a musical montage that was supposed to honor his life long fight that there are no sacred cows in comedy, this included strongly defending his right to use the swastika and impersonating Hitler to make people laugh. You could see the dissappointment on his face when Nathan Lane came out with the politically correct non-swastika armbands for the Producers Musical number "Springtime For Hitler in Germany". You have here a situation where a bunch of politically correct individuals completely miss the point of a mans life work while attempting to honour said work.
The point of this is that the models are like when Mel Brookes wear a swastika in one of his comedies. If you don't like seeing it, don't look. If the guy tries to force you to look then you have a reason to complain.

BTW, for those that don't know. Mel Brookes is a first generation descendant of Polish Jews and he fought in WWII.

Really, the thing is too subjective for a decisive, non biased comment on whether or not it is appropriate.

For instance, If for the first 20 or so years of my life, a bunch of people wearing the iconic symbol of the yellow smiley face came and burned my home, killed my family, and oppressed me, and then I finally was able escape that persecution to another country, and settle down.

Only to find that some of the inhabitants there decided to use the symbol on dozens of products and signs I would see everyday, the same symbol I associate with the horrors I had to deal with everyday for the my life. I doubt I say that it's ok for me to see that smiley face everywhere.


On the other hand, If I was born in this country, and I was not exposed to any of the negative stigma that the other man in my example witnessed, I would have no problems with it.


An example springs to mind that is similar in concept to this issue, drawing Muhammad. You might be thinking, what the hell is he doing trying to connect Muhammad with Nazis? Stick me, alright, i'll make sense in a minute. There was alot of uproar about the censoring of Muhammad http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/22/south-park-mohammed-censo_n_547484.html In response, images of Muhammad were put up everywhere, and I even a draw muhammad day sprouted up. People thought that this was a way to 'take free speech back'.

Now, think about this from the perspective of a Muslim, a country is insulting your prophet, a individual you have been taught from birth to (literally) worship. What these Americans are doing is mocking your prophet by putting him on an animated TV show for their entertainment.

Now, you may think, well too bad, 1st Amendment, I can say what I want, feth censoring myself. Well, you do have the right, but that doesn't mean you [/b]shouldn't[b] censor yourself. Case in point, it's why a successful businessman doesn't walk up to a poor fat kid on the street and yell in his face, "You fething suck you poor piece of gak!", well.. most of the time. Same thing when you avoid saying something or doing something that might offend a friend, and the biggest example I can think of people censoring themselves is Santa [I'm not going any farther, we all know about the horrible wages he pays those elves, and we shouldn't dwell on it].

(P.S. the whole Muhmmad debacle is supposed to be somewhat of an allegory to this Nazi situation, it's not perfect, but it's major points of get a thicker skin vs. you are deeply offending me is present)

To wrap all this up, you have the right to do what you want, but you shouldn't if you feel like you are going to horribly offend lots of people.

In this case, I personally don't see much of a Nazi Connection, I don't feel offended by the army, and see the points made by many about why it's alright for historical games, so why not this, and people shouldn't be offended, get a thicker skin, ad infinitum...

Yet, in the mixed societies we live in nowadays many people can be offended at this others would feel no pain at whatsoever. So, I think it's alright for you to play games with the army at the flgs, but avoid walking into a synagogue or something with it, alright?

Hopefully one day we can get to the point where it won't matter if anyone uses the swastika or other offensive (at this point in time) imagery, eventually...

Sorry if it's a bit rambling, its my first post and I wanted it to have some beef to it, sorry for the typos that were bound to happen, and, now excuse me while I nurse my aching fingers...

Focused, in essence your argument is that because Mel Brook's did a parody, thus everyone is entitled to wave flags and call it art and freedom of expression? I recognize that you are both intelligent and knowledgeable, but perhaps you are being overly insensitive in this matter. In general, it is not appropriate to publically display, particularly in this context, because of what it has become to represent, and primarily because DarkDM has made it clear its not freedom of expression nor for art (which as you should know is another medium for freedom of expression).

Sazzlefrats wrote:Focused, in essence your argument is that because Mel Brook's did a parody, thus everyone is entitled to wave flags and call it art and freedom of expression? I recognize that you are both intelligent and knowledgeable, but perhaps you are being overly insensitive in this matter. In general, it is not appropriate to publically display, particularly in this context, because of what it has become to represent, and primarily because DarkDM has made it clear its not freedom of expression nor for art (which as you should know is another medium for freedom of expression).

I thank you for your kind words, but I think your missing my point on several levels.

Point 1)It wasn't an argument based off of the concept of is somebody else got to do it then we should too. The argument was that people are claiming a similar connection, to this portion of history, as the actual survivors when they have no right to do such. These same people, who are trying to inherit the previous generations pain, are attempting to dictate to the previous generation and younger groups how they are allowed to express themselves on the subject.
I disagree with the concept of inherited psychological trauma.

Point 2)The next point is when we allow individuals to censor things based upon personal psychological trauma we are doing everyone a dis-service. When doing such, we first fail to help the individual to come to grips with and recover from the traumatic event. If such an event creates a strong reaction early on then as time passes it will often prove to be progressive and eventually become debilitating in some form or another. Early treatment is key to preventing the response to the trauma from becoming deeply ongrained within the psyche.
Secondly, we fail society in that such censorship both perpetuates the stigma (Preventing society from dealing/coping with the issue) and that the entire subject becomes taboo. When the subject becomes socially unacceptable then proper education on the subject becomes difficult to unavailable, leaving society to quickly repeat the horrors of the previous generation(s).

Point 3) As to the appropriateness of displaying such. In general it is ok to display such in museums, historical re-creations and in your private collections. People that preserve such history should not come under accusation of upholding the ideals for promoting an educational experience that explains how this chapter in history occured. When society caves to the pressure of not upsetting particular individuals or groups it begins to repress the knowledge and will view the keepers of this knowledge with suspision at best and outright hostility soon after.

Point 4) While I understand what the OP stated his goals were, I feel that our current discussion has progressed past focusing on his intentions and intead is now focusing upon the effect of allowing our emotions to have rule over our logic when it comes to censorship. Also, whether the OP recognizes the hobby as art or not is not relevant because the subject is not confined to just our hobby and the skiils learned in this hobby is giving rise to very talented artists.
Now if the OP does not wish for me to continue I will of course respect his wishes.

Lastly in reply to your concern about my being insensitivity, I am sure that to some I may seem insensitive to out right callous. This has to do with my life experience and what such has made of me versus what others life experiences has made of them. I also admit to having an anylitical veiw on such things. This is because off the cuff emotional reactions are where I get myself into trouble and I have recognized such about myself.
I look foreward to a time when words are just words and such symbols are just heraldry as opposed to the load of other peoples baggage that I am forced to carry. When you force my decision then you make me into a bell boy having someones emotional luggage thrust upon them, rather than being treated as an equal that has the chance to show courteousy.

Again, I am reasonable so if the subject is of discomfort to you, I can withdraw. We have been gentlemen in this discussion so we both may avail ourselves of the courteousy of being mutually considerate. Would you not agree?


Hope to chat more later.

Sazzlefrats wrote:To Ollieholmes, if I saw a swatsticka on a model, even on a historically correct model, I would be offended and I would take action (and have).

So a historically accurate miniature would offend you? I honestly have no good words for that. To me that's as ignorant as the views of those who you claim to object to. Still, it's your opinion and you're fully entitled to it.

The point that a lot of pro-swastika people seem to miss is this:

There is a difference between "can" and "should", which ges rigth to the original question of "offensive".

Politeness isn't required, but it's preferable in many circles.

Simple as that.

First off, I'd like to apolgize for not getting pictures of the shoulder pads up. I got off work, and stuff came up. Sadly, they won't be up for a few days.

One quick note, I feel as though the armbands served a pratical purpose whilst being, to a degree, artful. I wouldn't have wanted to put it on my mini unless it looked at least ok (as it also served another purpose), but since it doesn't look as good as I'd hoped, it's scraped.

Edit: I will be trying red on the shoulder pads, but there won't be any more black squiggles.

I hear the "well, you can play actual Nazis in FoW, so why not put svastikas on your Marines" defense quite a lot. I'd say there is a difference between making, say, a scale model of the Hindenburg (with two massive Nazi svastika emblems on its rear fins), and a fictional army that just happens to use the symbol.

In the first case, I don't have a choice. If I want to make an accurate rendition, the symbol goes there. In the second, the modeler is choosing, willy-nilly, to replicate Nazi iconography. It's a much more trivial usage than someone making scale models of WW2 technology

JohnHwangDD wrote:The point that a lot of pro-censorship people seem to miss is this:

There is a difference between having a dis-like and creating an uncomfortable situation for everyone else because you choose to make a scene.

Politeness isn't required, but it's preferable in many circles.

Simple as that.

Fixed that for you.

Sorry John but you made it to easy. My point here is that you make it sound like everyone will be immediately uncomfortable and that is very often untrue. People will often think nothing more of such themed armies(also Space commies, Inter-galactic Jihadist) than a chance to kick futuristic space nazi butt. It is not until someone shows a lack of self control and makes a scene that people become uncomfortable. You seem to think that it will be the guy that brought the army that will be the jerk. My personal experience differs in that it is just as often someone not even ivolved in the game, a self-righteous instigative type sitting on the sidelines that decides to make a scene because they get off on the power trip of being a pc bully.

Whoever it is that choses to make a scene, the second that person choses to disrupt the friendly atmosphere of the Gaming area they have made a choice that puts them in the wrong. There is nothing forcing such individuals to watch or play the game. Also understand the difference between table talk about playing the Space Nazis and people openly promoting the nazi ideals. You may not believe it, but people choose the level of and even whether or not they will be offended in a given situation. Its called self controll and being willing to give your fellowman the benefit of the doubt.

Focused, I haven't missed your points, I was being obtuse about Mel Brooks, but you have traveled onto a tangent that has obviously exceeded the scope of this thread. I don't agree that inherited psychological trauma should be transferred anymore than you do, but I won't play devil's advocate either, not while we (the United States) have the largest neo-nazi movement in the world. And we are stupid as a country for so doggedly defending freedom of expression even to the detriment of our own society, there is a fine line and that one was crossed a long long time ago. So your crucifixion of second generation victims needs to be reevaluated, maybe they are justified, regardless of whether they exist because of inherited trauma or personal trauma. The causation still exists, so it just follows. Cure the causation, and then you may have something. Maybe you missed an important point, do normal decent folk allow swastikas to be displayed in their lives? I don't think they do; neither do I. Labeling them traumatized is doing them a disservice. Consider censorship for a moment, Germany censored the swastika, do you think that's inappropriate? Was it just a small group of people who cowed that entire country to banned it? Maybe it was a larger group? Maybe a global group, and maybe it wasn't even that. But who can argue that banning of gratuitous displaying of nazi inconography is a bad thing? Displaying the swastika is obviously socially unacceptable, education of it, however, is not. Whatever meaning it held, was forever changed 60 years ago, and not in our lifetimes or even 10 generations from now is that likely to change. Thus we don't have to worry about history repeating itself.

With regards to self control, insensitivity and mutual consideration. If one excercises reasonable self control in their painting of iconography, which shows sensitivity to their fellow gamers, there will be mutual consideration from their peers. And there will be no scenes.

I for one entirely agree with John. Focused... why don't you make a poll on whether painting nazi garbage on minitures is acceptable for public gaming, it'll be one of those 90% unacceptable to 10% acceptable results. Then find a popular general public forum, and do the same, the results will be 99% or more unacceptable. Your presumption that John's assumption is wrong, is well... wrong. The vast majority prefer not to say anything, while hoping the "uncomfortable" situation will just go away. If you want to press your point, make the poll. Otherwise do as I am doing, I withdraw from the thread.

IILeiBlazeII wrote:The Inquisition (zealous military force = SS) hunts out members of different religions (Tau, Chaos, Orks, Necrons, etc, etc, etc = Jews) and wipes them off the face of the galaxy. I just drew a correlation between the actions of the Inquisition and the Nazi SS!

Why even do that when you can draw far easier comparisons between the Inquisition and the actual Inquisition. Talk about an odd analogy...

Interesting Topic. I vaguely recall seeing an SS-Themed Imperial Guard Army. I think everyone that Posted - including myself - is over-thinking the matter. At the time, when I saw the SS-IG, I didn't think twice about, 'This Player Is A Nazi', and I'm damn sure he wasn't. If you want to use a Colour Scheme based on a Military Force in World History, then by all means do so. I think, so long as you do not brand them with Swastikas, nobody can accuse you of taking any particular viewpoint or standing.

Think of it this way. Is everybody that plays Germany in FoW a Nazi, or does it show that they support Hitler's Ideas, or those of his followers?

It doesn't.

Its miniature.

I do not think your mini is Nazi themed. Till I told.

BTW,At my local hobby center,There is one guy who paint IG Nazi color. And Call his "Pask" as Rommel.
And here is no problem. May be because in Japan? I dont think so.

I'm fluff-mad man. But I belive 40k is super large universe,there could be "Neo-Nazi" like planet.
Imperium & IG are not always "GOOD" side. So dont have to be play good-men side.

I dont fear "Nazi-like" planet but I fear Women Space Marine.

@ff: the creation of pretty much anything incorporating known controversial elements is deliberately provocative when the option exists not to do so.

Hence, can vs should.

For example, if I were to meet your family, I can give your mom the finger and refer to her as a c*nt to her face, but should I?

By your argument, my doing so is blameless, and any negative reaction is on her, not me, right?


Anyhow, I think the OP has what he needs.

Over and out,

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The OP perhaps should make his little black squiggle a bit clearer, by recreating it on a large banner carried by the appropriate officer. That way, similar little badges on red armbands can rather be associated with the first thing in the army your eye is drawn to - the big red banner. As long as the symbol on it is very, very clearly not anything like a swastika, you should get away with it clean.

That actually sounds like a good idea, really. Also completely in character, and heroic banner-bearers tend to have 'good' connotations.

+1 on the banner idea.

For example, if I were to meet your family, I can give your mom the finger and refer to her as a c*nt to her face, but should I?

I think the connection of red armbands and saying 'for example' is the same while if you acted on that it is the same as extolling the virtues of Nazi policy. The first resembles a disrespectful act while the latter is disrespectful.

I feel the intention of painting up Nazis for the sake of shock value is disrespectful; painting up minis as nazi-esque implies art. As art is the expression of emotion or rather the memory of emotion. It was stated that the Nazis were snappy dressers and chose the colors they did because of the emotion the colors invoked. Imagery is some powerful mojo.

There's little question that the Imperium as described in the official lore is a terrible, horrible place, that makes the worst of both the nazi and communist dictactures look like a friendly picnic. The Imperium is so loaded with xenophobia, fascism, religious fundamentalism and other assorted unpleasantness that could you say it's a caricature of all the worst, ugliest traits of humanity. And that's the point.
The Imperium (and pretty much the whole 40K universe), its society, its values and its iconography aren't meant to be taken seriously, and especially not as an example ! It's supposed to be entertainment and distraction, not a political statement...
As such, someone who deliberately chooses to represent his units with real-life totalitarist imagery is at best missing the point. At best.
Besides, it's not like imperial troops aren't already loaded with such themes. So why feel the need to go further ?

You'll note that battlefront walks a very thin line with FoW, and often spends a good amount of time reminding everyone that representing something faithfully doesn't mean you're approving or glorifying it. Maybe they're touchy, but when you design and sell a game where one can fields units that are known to this day for their war crimes, I'd say it's a healthy precaution.

P.S for the OP : I know I'm a bit late to the party, but as pictured on page 4, yeah, you couldn't make those arm bands look more nazi-like even if you had actually used swastikas. Even worse, bright red arm bands look badly out of place on battle troops. "Oops".

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why even do that when you can draw far easier comparisons between the Inquisition and the actual Inquisition.

That too, eh? Seriously... last I checked, the Christian Inquisition did a heck of a lot of damage to non-likeminded individuals... I was, however, trying to draw the analogy based on WW2 Nazis to stay with the subject of the thread. But I have a question that digresses from the Nazis - and before I get to it, I just want to say I'm not trying to change people's minds but rather let them see the subject through my eyes. I realize this is an internet forum debate and nobody ever wins these.

I had a (relatively) close friend of my family that passed away in the 9/11 attacks (not necessarily close to me, but close to my folks). Now, when I look at these...





... should I see Middle Eastern Terrorists or Tallarn Desert Raiders? While they may look similar, I can tell that the lasguns are futuristic weaponry... but thats about all that's separating them. Now, since I had someone I know (not my extended relatives, not fellow members of ethnicity or fellow members of my religion, *me*) killed by Muslim extremists, should I tell the next Tallarn IG player I sit down with that I can't/won't play him? No. In fact, I came VERY close to purchasing a giant bag of mixed IG regiments at the most recent Bizarre Bazaar at my local GWS that had Tallarn mixed in! *And* I was going to paint/use them in a mixed-stormtrooper unit for my Inquisition (a la Ragged Edges of Raege). This is the kind of thing I'm trying to point out - Warhammer 40k is a *game*. Reality is *reality*. I mean this with zero disrespect, but when you start mixing the two, you need to re-evaluate the situation. I know as a kid my parents didn't let me watch R-rated movies until I was able to separate what was fact from what was fiction. Perhaps 40k is a little too grimdark for you - after all, it *is* about killing billions of people on a battlefield again and again and again...

On one more note, this thread has altered my opinion on showing graphic imagery in the classroom (primary sources, in particular) without parental consent. Apparently, some people are far more sensitive about the subject than others. I'll feel really bad for the kids that aren't allowed, though... reading history books only teaches you so much.

IILeiBlazeII wrote:(...)

You might want to remember 40K is a british game.
You might also want to enquire about historical figures such as the Long Range Desert Patrols, or Lawrence of Arabia. ASAP.

HudsonD wrote:You might want to remember 40K is a british game.
You might also want to enquire about historical figures such as the Long Range Desert Patrols, or Lawrence of Arabia. ASAP.

^---British Desert Forces in WW2



^---Lawrence of Arabia

Lawrence of Arabia was a *man* that dressed in middle-eastern robes... the Tallarn Desert Raiders are a *force* that does. Thank you for proving my point, though - apparently, if someone who wants to find real-life similarities between a *game* and *real life* and looks hard enough at something, they'll find a correlation to something in real life and have a reason to snipe at it.

This getting rather far off topic though, as I had asked about my minis and how close they were, not if I support Nazis in painting them close to Nazis. Or why somebody should or should not be offended by them. All I asked was if it was treading too close or on a touchy subject.

I was kind of hoping the thread wouldn't get closed until at least after I'd have some thoughts on ideas I have for the shoulder pads instead of the armbands, but if the conversation keeps off topic like it is I may asked that it gets closed.

So unless you have something to say about the minis shown, the idea presented, or any alternatives, I'd rather you post somewhere besides this thread...

IILeiBlazeII wrote:
Lawrence of Arabia was a *man* that dressed in middle-eastern robes... the Tallarn Desert Raiders are a *force* that does. Thank you for proving my point, though - apparently, if someone who wants to find real-life similarities between a *game* and *real life* and looks hard enough at something, they'll find a correlation to something in real life and have a reason to snipe at it.

Ok, here are a few results from the first and second pages of a google search on "long range desert patrol" :
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo5/no3/images/Special-2.jpg
http://mcwarr.orconhosting.net.nz/genealogy/leslie/tpatrol.jpg
http://www.lrdg.org/LRDG-P2.jpg
http://worldwartwozone.com/photopost/data/500/medium/LRDG.jpg
Can you say "Tallarn desert pat... raiders" ?

Anyway, anything might be offending for some people, perhaps, but there's quite a difference between thinking a certain too-obvious-to-even-fit red arm band complete with white circle and black logo looks a little too much like another rather infamous arm band, and mistaking the very british LRDPs with talibans.

Frazzled wrote:You're right. I completely forgot how the marines stormed the beaches of Iwo Jima, brushing aside the ork defenders, with their new anti Shokk Attack Gun battle armor...

Sigg'd.

On topic, no, I would have no problem with you using these models in a game against me. I do not look at these models and think "OMG ITZ THE NAZI!". In fact, if you hadn't asked the question I likely wouldn't have made the connection.
In the long run-just don't mention it to an opponent. If they take notice of it, just explain that you wanted a way to make regular Cadians stand out more on the battlefeild, and it was in no way ment to evoke Nazi symbolism. If they still take offence, then apologise, continue the game, then pack up and don't play them again-its the best option for both of you I think.

I really don't see the big deal at all and not sure how this has sprung into a six page discussion. Even if the armbands do somewhat resemble the Nazi's, even if only by the same colors, wouldn't an opposing general possibly enjoy whipping darkdm in a game more than he would otherwise just because he's thinking "kill dem evil Nazi's"?
Most of us are grown men and women playing with toy figurines--let's not take ourselves too seriously!

This thread is fascinating.

I would have no issue with the models, but I think the banner idea is wonderful regardless.

kirsanth wrote:This thread is fascinating.

I would have no issue with the models, but I think the banner idea is wonderful regardless.

I have to disgree with the banner idea (I really appreciate the idea as an alternative though), and here's why:

1) Gaint banners for the officers would negate the need for the armband/shoulder pad painting anyways because then it'd be easy to pick out the officer anyways. I really do like the banner idea, but since the minis have already been assembled and I'd rather not go back and remake the sergeants and other officers, so it's not quite feasible

Arctik_Firangi wrote:
The OP perhaps should make his little black squiggle a bit clearer, by recreating it on a large banner carried by the appropriate officer. That way, similar little badges on red armbands can rather be associated with the first thing in the army your eye is drawn to - the big red banner. As long as the symbol on it is very, very clearly not anything like a swastika, you should get away with it clean.

2)If I were to go with exactly what was said here, I think it'd look even closer to Nazis then just armbands alone. Big red banners with matching armbands screams nazi to me...

But, if I were to do banners, I would do them similar to SM banners in the Codex: SM, so that they carry the officer's personal heraldry, which wouldn't be remotely close to anything nazi like. There would also be no need for armbands, so they wouldn't be there.

My thought on the banner was that it would show the army's device, allowing the icons on the sleeves to be variations denoting rank.

I agree that a banner itself does not work so well as a means of showing rank.

/shrug

To be honest when I saw your initial idea and then the pics I did say to myself "Hmmmm..... those look like Nazis".

Since you are planning on doing something different now have you considered doing things like white pants with one or two colored stripes down the legs? This would look good with your overall grey scheme and not jump out as being Nazi themed at all.

brettz123 wrote:To be honest when I saw your initial idea and then the pics I did say to myself "Hmmmm..... those look like Nazis".

Since you are planning on doing something different now have you considered doing things like white pants with one or two colored stripes down the legs? This would look good with your overall grey scheme and not jump out as being Nazi themed at all.

My laziness is coming out here
I could, but I'd rather not paint white over the grey. Plus, I could just put the stripe on the officer anyways with the grey and it'd probably look fine.

Thanks for the idea though! I may end up combining a red stripe on the fatigues with the shoulder pads.

darkdm wrote:

brettz123 wrote:To be honest when I saw your initial idea and then the pics I did say to myself "Hmmmm..... those look like Nazis".

Since you are planning on doing something different now have you considered doing things like white pants with one or two colored stripes down the legs? This would look good with your overall grey scheme and not jump out as being Nazi themed at all.

My laziness is coming out here
I could, but I'd rather not paint white over the grey. Plus, I could just put the stripe on the officer anyways with the grey and it'd probably look fine.

Thanks for the idea though! I may end up combining a red stripe on the fatigues with the shoulder pads.

Cool. A red stripe actually looks pretty sweet down the leg of officers. I did that on my Rogue Trader IG with white trousers.

The banner bearer doesn't have to be the commander, just part of his command squad... I'm not too familiar with IG anymore but it might fit as some sort of interesting Wargear. You used to be able to get some good parts for this kind of thing from the Empire Command Sprue. No idea if that is available separately or from bits dealers, though.

Sure, it makes the command squad obvious, but this is 40k where everything tends to be over the top.

A basic guideline for this kind of thing, in my mind, is if you're concerned it may be a problem.

Off-topic:

Sazzlefrats wrote:Focused, I haven't missed your points, I was being obtuse about Mel Brooks, but you have traveled onto a tangent that has obviously exceeded the scope of this thread. I don't agree that inherited psychological trauma should be transferred anymore than you do

Good, And would have been more beneficial if left off at this point, but then you continued on with a post that spiraled downward from logic to casting unfounded asperssions that do nothing more than to prove my point about where PC thinking is leading us. You end up using propoganda techniques to imply that I have an agenda with no basis or fact to support such and have with your statements shown that you are no longer being gentlemanly, but instead one who seems to be engaged in emotional manipulation to support an emotion based argument.

Here, I will respond to this spiral:

Sazzlefrats wrote:but I won't play devil's advocate either, not while we (the United States) have the largest neo-nazi movement in the world. And we are stupid as a country for so doggedly defending freedom of expression even to the detriment of our own society, there is a fine line and that one was crossed a long long time ago.

First, your use of the term devil's advocate is the beginning of your propaganda attack in that it implies several incorrect motives or associations. This is because, even though you use it to reffer to yourself, the phrase was used in the context of a comparison which does the following:
1)It attempts to discredit my argument by alluding to me as possibly just "Playing Devil's Advocate". This implies that I really don't believe in my side of this debate.
2)By using the term "Devils Advocate" with a statemet that implies doing such is negative or beneath you, you engaged in the propaganda technique of Demonization. In other words your saying this is an old debate trick to associate me personally with some form of evil.

Your descent into the use of these propaganda techniques is both sad and ironic for the same reason in that some of them were pioneered and perfected by those that you find upsetting

As to the statement about size of the american Neo-nazi movement. Quotation please? Also please to read the history of such. You will find that memberships to such groups were at an all time historical low in 1980 with a percapita level that was lower than any other developed multi-cultural nation. Something changed in 1980, a law was passed and it was recognized that the law would increase racial tensions to the point of driving people towards such groups. That law was affirmative action. Before the Law these groups were in a steady decline with the FBI estimating membership totals of around 10,000 before the law and 100,000 5 years after the law.
What I am saying here is that maybe Free Speech is not the problem but a government that has been practicing favoritism and to some extent segregation in the legislation it ennacts.

Now as to the U.S. policy on free speech. Who decides where free speech ends? The Nazis were and are a political entity. When you say that one political entity is verboten(forbidden) you pave the path to make other parties illegal. Making political entities with opposing ideologies illegal is how totaltarian regimes (including Adolphs and Stalin's) maintain control of a country. When you argue against the nazi party's right to assemble and function as a political entity then you are in fact arguing for the creation of a totalitarian regime within our borders.
I disagree with this.

Sazzlefrats wrote:So your crucifixion of second generation victims needs to be reevaluated, maybe they are justified, regardless of whether they exist because of inherited trauma or personal trauma. The causation still exists, so it just follows. Cure the causation, and then you may have something.

Now you make a very inflamatory statement that implies that I am persecuting a group. This is a progession of the demonization I mentioned earlier. Such tactics are employed when one side is losing the logic portion of their debate or argument and goes for an emotional response from the people they are trying to sway to their stance. Essentially it is an unwarranted personal attack that only works in face to face debates/arguments because it is relying upon a knee-jerk reaction from those that are listening. It is a tool used by the irrational to shout down the voices of reason. Now I would like to address the assumptions that this statement implies and how you just proved one of my earlier points:

1)Your statement about crucifixion when considering the subject matter is a very poor choice of words that seems to allude to my possibly being anti-semetic. Huh, I am a self-hating Jew simply because I refuse to engage in censoring others.
I, too, could play the PC I'm offended card by asking, "What do you mean by curcifixion? Are you saying that just because I am of Jewish decent that I am out to crucify people?"
See how this works.

2)Earlier, I made the point that creating a taboo about the subject and its imagery will lead to people casting false aspersions on those who disagree with having the knowledge and aristic use limited. Your statements and use of the demonization tactic in this thread just proved my point.

3)I disagree with your concept of causation. There is a difference between the trauma the holodaust survivors personally underwent and the current generation saying the imagery traumatizes them because something bad once happened that was associated with the image.
You made a callous offensive comment about my "crucifixion" of the second generation, my reply to that comment is that they have put themselves up on and bound themselves to those crosses without any help from me. Please to refrain from blaming me for their actions.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Maybe you missed an important point, do normal decent folk allow swastikas to be displayed in their lives? I don't think they do; neither do I. Labeling them traumatized is doing them a disservice. Consider censorship for a moment, Germany censored the swastika, do you think that's inappropriate? Was it just a small group of people who cowed that entire country to banned it? Maybe it was a larger group? Maybe a global group, and maybe it wasn't even that.

1)My other Grandfather had war memorabilia displayed in his den and on the living room walls. When it came for the 4th of July parades these items would go on the veterans float to show the enemies/evil vanquished by our veterans. He had no problem with wargames that used the imagery and found the censorship of such as an insult to his service. He wanted people to see and know exactly what he fought against. I consider him to have been a normal decent man.

2)Yes, I think germany's current censorship is innapropriate. It comes across as trying to sweep their history under the rug and has not prevented the ideology from being embraced by some of the following generations. The criminalization of the imagery has just driven these groups underground where it is harder to track their movement and affect on the rest of the populace.

3)As to the why of Germany's law- I'd say that as a conquered country that was taking orders from those that won the war, finding the root of why the law was passed is fairly evident. It was tied to programs to re-educate a generation that was taught only one political philosophy and a bit of an allied sponsored PR move to show that germany was abandonning the ideology. Thing is there is a difference between re-educating a generation that prosecuted the war and the accurate education of subsequent generations.

Sazzlefrats wrote:But who can argue that banning of gratuitous displaying of nazi inconography is a bad thing? Displaying the swastika is obviously socially unacceptable, education of it, however, is not. Whatever meaning it held, was forever changed 60 years ago, and not in our lifetimes or even 10 generations from now is that likely to change. Thus we don't have to worry about history repeating itself.

1) I can argue such. If it is ok to ban one political groups iconography then you are saying that it is ok for all political groups iconography to be banned. The reasons for currently pushing for such bans would be based upon a matter of dis-comfort over topics that people would find personally traumatic. This would lead to political parties being banned over issues that people find stressful, isues like abortion, civil rights and the deathpenalty.

2)Displaying a swastika is only unacceptable in parts of the world and only because it is being held as a taboo symbol by some groups. If the onus was taken off of the symbology and instead people followed Mel Brookes approach, you would see the connection between the symbol and these groups fade. The Swastika would instead become a historic symbol of a political movement that commited atrocities on its path to becoming an epic failure. When this happens the swastika as a political symbol will be less viable than a clown costume.

3)The point that I have been making, and your emotion based argument has been proving, is that by insisting upon perpetuating a social stigma and pushing for restrictions upon political imagery based upon personal dis-like you are insuring that history will repeat itself.

Sazzlefrats wrote:With regards to self control, insensitivity and mutual consideration. If one excercises reasonable self control in their painting of iconography, which shows sensitivity to their fellow gamers, there will be mutual consideration from their peers. And there will be no scenes.

So, your argument is that if you perceive anothers actions as wrong that you are then allowed to engage in behavior that everyone knows is wrong. Here the problems with this line of thought.
A) You cannot prove the individuals motivations.
B) You are in effect demanding everyone must respect your feelings without question, yet you are unwilling to do the same for others.
c) People have differing capacities for sensitivity, not everyone is empathic and not everyone is going to agree that painting such shows a lack of reason or sensitivty. Demanding that everyone lives and agrees with the same perception of what is acceptable is a hallmark of totalitarian regimes.

Maybe, just maybe if you behaved like a growm man and discussed with the individual what bothers you about such a paint job, they might suprise you. Then again the person with the army has every right to say,"If you dont like it then don't look." You see the problem is not his, it is instead yours and you are seeking to make it everyone elses problem via emotional manipulation. You are the one with the problem concerning the look of the army, no one is making you look at it. If you can not maintain control when seeing things you don not like the US has an extensive penal system waiting for you when you take things to far. It us not the other persons fault when you decide not control your behavior. Your statement here implies the same thought process as many who find them in trouble with the law.(He/She had it coming, look at what he/she wearing)

Sazzlefrats wrote:I for one entirely agree with John. Focused... why don't you make a poll on whether painting nazi garbage on minitures is acceptable for public gaming, it'll be one of those 90% unacceptable to 10% acceptable results. Then find a popular general public forum, and do the same, the results will be 99% or more unacceptable. Your presumption that John's assumption is wrong, is well... wrong. The vast majority prefer not to say anything, while hoping the "uncomfortable" situation will just go away. If you want to press your point, make the poll. Otherwise do as I am doing, I withdraw from the thread.

If you really believe this then why don't you set up a non-biased poll.
Oh, you are biased and any numbers you'd generate or post will reflect your opinion rather than fact. There is no other evidence needed for me to say this than to point out that you have obviously become so emotional about this subject that you are making the assumption that anyone who would field such an army is the provocateur.

There are many logical, creative and perfectly acceptable reasons for fielding such an army and the fact thart your prejudice blinds you to them indicates that your afforementioned trauma may be more of an issue than what you currently perceive. This is not an attack, this is pointing out that you are attacking someone for simply disagreeing with you.

You seem to think that not being offended is an inalienable right. It is not. Your inalieable right is that you can disagree with the things that you don't like. Just be a chap and don't turn your LGS into a den of drama with your disagreement, when you can instead handle whatever problem you have maturely and quietly without disturbing those who are not involved.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@ff: the creation of pretty much anything incorporating known controversial elements is deliberately provocative when the option exists not to do so.

Hence, can vs should.

For example, if I were to meet your family, I can give your mom the finger and refer to her as a c*nt to her face, but should I?

By your argument, my doing so is blameless, and any negative reaction is on her, not me, right?

Wrong in that there is a difference between I am describing a passive choice that only invoves the player and opponent and yours that descibes what could be an aggressive and hostile attack. My response would be situational and depend upon if my Mom was being a C*nt or not.

1)If she is being a C*nt or a B**ch then call her on it. She is a grown up and can handle her own arguments. Just be aware that when you descend into name calling it reflects poorly upon you.
2)If she wasn't being rude but was wearing a shirt with a message you disagreed with, I'd quickly show you the door.
3)If you are an English Punk and Mom knows the differences in language and culture and is prepared for such, then go ahead
4)Now, if you decked my mom because you disagreed with what she said , was wearing, ect..After i dropped and subdued you, I would call the authorities.

Different responses for different situations.

@John and Sazz- I am going to follow the OP's wishes and call this an end to my part of this conversation in this thread.

No hard feelings, just a discussion. Best to you both




On Topic:

darkdm wrote:This getting rather far off topic though, as I had asked about my minis and how close they were, not if I support Nazis in painting them close to Nazis. Or why somebody should or should not be offended by them. All I asked was if it was treading too close or on a touchy subject.

I was kind of hoping the thread wouldn't get closed until at least after I'd have some thoughts on ideas I have for the shoulder pads instead of the armbands, but if the conversation keeps off topic like it is I may asked that it gets closed.

So unless you have something to say about the minis shown, the idea presented, or any alternatives, I'd rather you post somewhere besides this thread...

Just saw this.

I apologize for my part in pushing the thread off topic and will refrain from replying on anything other than what you have described.

The poster that brought up the banners had a good idea or you could always use the trick of different coloured and rank on the helmets.

I still think that a darker richer blood red would look best as a contrast colour. Have you considered an urban block print camo pattern for the army?


Again, my apologies




Edits: Spelling 6x, dropped wording 2x, quotes for clarification, replly to OP

They are plastic toy men.

7 pages?

I saw the images, I think the arm bands look fine.

Balance wrote:The banner bearer doesn't have to be the commander, just part of his command squad... I'm not too familiar with IG anymore but it might fit as some sort of interesting Wargear. You used to be able to get some good parts for this kind of thing from the Empire Command Sprue. No idea if that is available separately or from bits dealers, though.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense now.

My issue wasn't trying to make the command squads stick out. The issue was getting the actual officer himself to stick out within a squad. I run a blob squad (combined Infantry Squads) with 31 models in it, and it gets hard to tell where the sergeants are sometimes. I aslo run some 10 man squads of Veterans where the Sergeant is armed the same as his squad-mates, so it's difficult to pick them out there too.

As far as banners in any command squad for IG go (both PCS and CCS), they both could a flag in the squad, so your idea would work too in that regard.

@darkdm-How about painting your commaders helmets Grey? If not that then how about painting the base colour of one shoulder pad a different color. On my Tau I painted the top and bottom plates of the shoulder shield mithril siver. It really doesn't take much to make the leader easy to spot.

My Grandparents were factory slaves to the Nazi's... I won't go in to the long "fun" detail. But I honestly have nothing against the OP's mini's- except one thing...

It kinda does look bad/almost swastika like from a distance like in group shot 2 on page 4, my first reaction was "oh this motherf better be kidding..."- for about half a second. On closer inspection you can see the chevrons (?the angled lines?) and what you are obviously doing. I'd Honestly give their guns a slapping of red, rather than painting on armbands, but thats just me- a lighter crimson? But, hey, thats just me.

My father was orphaned during the occupation of Hungary by the Red Army.

This doesn't give me the right to tell the player of a Valhallan or kislevite or Khador or that other pig-ugly 40k "russian" faction to change aspect 'x' of his army because I dislike it - no matter how much I might like to.

My IG commissars have red armbands and black uniforms. They were painted like this when I first got them (back when they were FIRST released and the examples were the same) and they will stay this way.

They are not "camp counselors" who encourage with treats. They 'encourage' through rule by fear tactics. Like the RL cadre they are based off.

chromedog wrote:My father was orphaned during the occupation of Hungary by the Red Army.

This doesn't give me the right to tell the player of a Valhallan or kislevite or Khador or that other pig-ugly 40k "russian" faction to change aspect 'x' of his army because I dislike it - no matter how much I might like to.

My IG commissars have red armbands and black uniforms. They were painted like this when I first got them (back when they were FIRST released and the examples were the same) and they will stay this way.

They are not "camp counselors" who encourage with treats. They 'encourage' through rule by fear tactics. Like the RL cadre they are based off.

Your missing the point. The OP wasn't asking if anyone had the right to tell him what to do he was asking if people thought it would could / would be offensive to some people. Obviously the answer is yes it would be to SOME people.... and based on this thread a not insignificant number of people. Please try to understand the question before answering


Just to get a little back on topic..... have you considered using different helmet stripes and what not? A lot of the old Rogue Trader art work features things like helmet stripes of different colors to denote rank and I believe different squad types in imperial guard armies. Not sure what kind of resources you have but those old Rogue Trader books are pretty cool for those types of little differences that can really make models stand out.

Nazi party symbols on a mini would probally be in bad taste.

If you are going to use nazi uniform colors though and are worried about negative response, simply use a large number of standards with your own (destintly not nazi) symbols on them, and splash simular designs over all your tanks.

John wrote:

Shaman wrote:Hope to see a discussion containing things like this..

Oh, where the hell did this come from?!? It's freakin brilliant. I could see this thing as a demon prince leading a whole bunch of demonettes.

I saw it on the chan.. so no idea.

I love this thread.

So much anger makes Khorne strong.

I still think its funny that if someone painted Ig as stalin era russians no one cares at all.

Tip to genocide kill your own people and the world doesn't care. Sad but true.

@FocusedFire - tell us the truth are you Emmanuel Kant? Dont be shy! (I've noticed that nearly every second point you are making is deontological in nature )

Seriously though, props to people in this thread for actually coherently discussing the Nazi issue.

As to the OP - another option would be rank on the chest plate, maybe off centre just below the shoulder? not sure if you would have enough room to do what you want there though.
Come to think of it, do soldiers normally wear their rank in the field? I was under the impression that Australian officers do not, and you are not supposed to salute them either, to make it more difficult for the enemy to target the "head" of a force, might be different for other forces/non-coms though?

With all do sincerity focusedfire, thank you. You made your points brilliantly and I quite readily agree with you. Not many of us would have the ability to be so rational in such a debate.

Now, as to the OP, I look forward to seeing more of your pictures. But I do think the armbands look fine as they are, though a bit bright in contrast to the rest of the miniature.

I finally had to time to paint up some more test minis and take pics. This time, I've taken some of the advice given to me and used a darker red. I've included two guardsmen with painted shoulder pads and 1 with red trimming on his fatigues. I'm curious to know if anyone still thinks that that shoulder pads or trimming are still treading too close to Nazi imagery. I painted up close to what the marking on the shoulder pads will look like. The red paint would only be on the "leader" of each squad (ei. Sergeant). Once again, sorry about the crummy paint job, as these are just test minis.

Picture 1: Group shot with all 3 minis.
Picture 2 and 3: Just one shoulder pad painted solid red.
Picture 4 and 5: Red trim on both shoulder pads.
Picture 6 and 7: Red trim on the fatigues, no red on shoulder pads.

Two thumbs up. That scheme looks a lot better too.

Agreed. Much better.

I like the trim on both the fatigues and the shoulder pads, have you considered doing both?

I like these better. The full darker red shoulder pad really makes for a nice contrast yet isn't so stark that it constantly distracts.

Definitley a step in the right direction. Have you considered a black trim on your officers and around the red shoulder piece? Sort of a same theme but with reversed colours between the officers and enlisted.

Much much better. Good job.

They look good but they need a devlan mud or badab black wash STAT.

Firstly, I'm glad everyone (so far) thinks it looks better. I'm also glad to hear no one thinks it's close to Nazi symology any more. If anyone still thinks it does, please feel free to let me know.

DeadGuard wrote:I like the trim on both the fatigues and the shoulder pads, have you considered doing both?

I have, but then again I really like the red on the fatigues and may end up doing it for everyone. But I don't like the red trim on the shoulder pads as much, and like it better as one red pad and one gray one.

focusedfire wrote:Definitley a step in the right direction. Have you considered a black trim on your officers and around the red shoulder piece? Sort of a same theme but with reversed colours between the officers and enlisted.

If I was going to do something similar throughout my army, I'd do something like that But only the officers will have red shoulder pads, thus distinguishing them from the enlisted men.

Vladsimpaler wrote:They look good but they need a devlan mud or badab black wash STAT.

Yes, I am aware that they badly need a wash. But these are test figures I didn't care about, as I didn't want to mess up already completed minis with my silly and wierd ideas.

In addition to not having to worry about anyone being offended, the new paint job just looks better. I like the red trim on the fatigues.

People can and will get offended by certain iconography (even mistaken) on little toy soldiers. I got a severe talking to from an ex girlfriend of mine who was from South Africa about the shields on my Skaven. The little round shield with the triskelion on it ( not the triangle, that 3 armed thingy) looks almost exactly like the device on the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (Afrikaner Resistance Movement) flag. Despite explaining that the use of that type of symbol was long and varied she was still upset (blame GW , they made the little plastic bits for the shield ). You never can tell how people will react.

darkdm wrote:I finally had to time to paint up some more test minis and take pics.

Thanks for the pics.

The white-on-red army insignia pad looks great. A definite keeper.

The white-on-black squad identifier also looks great.

The red uniform piping is a bit iffy - it looks Mordian and your hand isn't completely steady, so it looks kinda "off". Maybe if you weather it with Devlan Mud, it'll be OK.

The red shoulder pad edging is good and easy to spot from the player's POV. The edging has similar issues as above as the edging isn't completely even - it looks painted and out of scale.

Consider varying the squad insignia like this:
- white-on-black for regular grunts
- black-on-white (reversed) for Sergeants and Veterans
- white-on-red (and/or red-on-white) squad / command insignia for Officers
The colors all tie together, and it's super-easy to spot sergeants, veterans, and officer models. You get out of the rather difficult edging business, down to simple two-color squad insignia, and very simple visual color coding.

If such schemes were "wrong" then historical wargaming would have to be missing WW2 stuff IMO. In my opinion it's all about context. An army such as some mentioned based around the German army yep cool go for it. Hell Steel Legion models take inspiration from them!
If however it's done by someone who decides to also shave a swastika in their head, play the game in an SS uniform with a hilter tash stuck his under nose while ranting about how certain groups of people are not human then I just might have an issue with the player.
Seriously I don't see the problem with it as long as it's context is there. Model and colour scheme the IG on that era cool, use the imperial icons etc to put it in the context of 40k again cool. It all comes down to the player not the models.
Edit: In the furture, at 4AM when posting, look for pages after the first urgh.

Agreed with the above- the white on red shoulder pad looks excellent! I thought giving it black trim for officers was a good idea, but I can see you wanting to reserve the red shoulder pad for officers only as-is.

The red edging I'm not totally sure about, but overall, this is great!!!

It keeps your colors and great contrast, but avoids anything you don't want to allude to. Fantastic solution!

I like the new look, the colors are better, everything. Thumbs up.

First off
I love your Daemonette Defiler, that thing is freakin' sweet.
The IG you think look like Nazi's. They do not.
Your IG tread kinda does, but that should not trouble you since your army as a whole will look much different all ranked up. If anyone picks that out and zooms in on that and gets frothing over it.
Well, let them. You cannot change peoples minds about things. You can reason with them and forge a compromise, you can even enlighten and change their POV. but you will never be able to change someones mind without a mind wipe.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, my wife looks at a picture of a kitten and sees beauty. I see the same thing and think its cute. But i also see an A-10 Thunderbolt and think its beautiful.
My wife sees an A-10 and says thats ugly.
Paint your army the way you want it. You paid for it.
If someone is truly offended by your work they will say their piece and whip out a check book to get rid of it themselves.
Cause unless they are ready to buy it from you and deal with it as they see fit. They are only blowing on a fire, to make it worse.
I dont see your army as having crossed a line or even toeing the line.
Its not in poor taste, lewd, offensive, and you are not making a statement. Your working with colors on models, and your choice is an elegant one. Simple and it will bland in to a majority of back drops.
If someone gives you grief over it, ask them how much they are willing to buy them for. If the number is less than your willing to part with them for. They can shut up, nearly every country these products are sold in are free countries where you are allowed to express yourself. Enjoy your models, you paid for them. I enjoy them. Thank you for sharing them.