I just torrented the old version of the Chaos Codex, and I have to say that I absolutely loved it. I was looking through and I loved how each legion was accurately represented by unique abilities, units and weapons, such as the Alpha Legion: They had unique access to Chaos Cultists, which were essentially Renegade Guardsmen in a frenzy. You could create a true Chaos Lord, with Daemonic abilities and upgrades which allow you to intergrate him into your fluff. Now compare that to the new Chaos Codex, and you'll see why I would like to take a hammer to the testicles of the guy who thought that it needed to change. The new Codex has removed every bit of originality that the old one was rich of. I swear you could mistake it for the vanilla Marine 'dex. It is almost exactly the same except for a few new units. The only thing that can give a Chaos Lord a bit of unique-ness is a Mark and a Daemon Weapon, which gives a plain generic ablity, whereas in the previous edition, I could have a Chaos Lord with a guard Spawn, Daemonic Talons, an Axe of Khorne, Kai Gun or something else from the huge abundance of wargear options.

Now I've calmed down a bit, why exactly did GW decide to change the huge wealth of fun that was old Codex into the excuse of a book that they call the 5th Edition Chaos Space Marine Codex?

I've heard rumor that it was due to the simplification and streamlining kick they were on between 4th and 5th, but I wasn't around at the time so who knows.

It was Jervisified. It was a horrible period where every new book was extremly boring and lacked options. The Blood Angel pdf codex is another example of this horrible period. At that time, you didn't look forward to your army getting updated, you were scared as hell for Jervis and his eraser

Illumini wrote:It was Jervisified. It was a horrible period where every new book was extremly boring and lacked options. The Blood Angel pdf codex is another example of this horrible period. At that time, you didn't look forward to your army getting updated, you were scared as hell for Jervis and his eraser

Oh god I hope that period ends some time soon.

It ended with codex: deamons, where people actually got alot of choice again, so no worries, the new chaos codex is going to rock! (unless Jervis manages to get his filthy pawns on the next codex)


Edit: The chaos dex is not a 5th ed codex. It's a 4th ed thing. The first codex built with 5th ed in mind was codex:deamons (or maybe orks, I think deamons were first).

They should've just let Codex Chaos Marines use The Daemon codex as allies a la The inquisition books.

Illumini wrote:The chaos dex is not a 5th ed codex. It's a 4th ed thing. The first codex built with 5th ed in mind was codex:deamons (or maybe orks, I think deamons were first).

Orks were built with 5th in mind, I don't know if they came before or after daemons.

Gavo wrote:

Illumini wrote:The chaos dex is not a 5th ed codex. It's a 4th ed thing. The first codex built with 5th ed in mind was codex:deamons (or maybe orks, I think deamons were first).

Orks were built with 5th in mind, I don't know if they came before or after daemons.

I'm pretty sure Orks came first.

Orks came first (January 08), then Daemons (May 08) as the last 4th Ed codex. Daemons are probably as much written with 5th in mind as orks, if not more.

Valkyrie wrote:I just torrented the old version of the Chaos Codex,

why exactly did GW decide to change the huge wealth of fun that was old Codex into the excuse of a book that they call the 5th Edition Chaos Space Marine Codex?

GW IP police will be knocking on your door soon...

When GW found out that most players weren't building or playing their armies properly, and that complexity for complexity's sake didn't actually create "fun".

Ah, so you're that person. Okay

Anyway, I also hate the new codex, and I've been mix-matching elements of both in private games. It's all good fun

A new chaos codex will probably be a long time away as Jervis will want to update every Loyalist Army first (DA, BT, WH. DH) >_>. That being said, I'm hoping for a PDF codex that has amended rules, kind of like a CSM codex 4.5.

I was actually reading the Daemons codex last night. It appears that some of the daemonic upgrades from CSM 3.5 have migrated over to the Daemons codex. I am kind of jealous as the passive upgrades were the best thing in the previous book. I liked to power stack them and create 200 point powerhouses.

Hopefully the next CSM book brings back passive upgrades but hopefully without cheese.

Valkyrie wrote:

Illumini wrote:It was Jervisified. It was a horrible period where every new book was extremly boring and lacked options. The Blood Angel pdf codex is another example of this horrible period. At that time, you didn't look forward to your army getting updated, you were scared as hell for Jervis and his eraser

Oh god I hope that period ends some time soon.

That's funny, I looked forward to the Inquisition being removed from my third edition Sisters of Battle codex.

Tell you what is really unhelpful? tau codex.

SM 4th edition also had way more info than the 5th, i like fluff, and they removed a ton of it, so gay.

I'd like to see a new csm codex. the new one is absolutly terrible

When I first read the current Tau book I was like where the hell is Anghkor Prok and Aun'Shi? They were favourites of mine.

Melissia wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

Illumini wrote:It was Jervisified. It was a horrible period where every new book was extremly boring and lacked options. The Blood Angel pdf codex is another example of this horrible period. At that time, you didn't look forward to your army getting updated, you were scared as hell for Jervis and his eraser

Oh god I hope that period ends some time soon.

That's funny, I looked forward to the Inquisition being removed from my third edition Sisters of Battle codex.

So do I. The inquisition is useless, just give us pure SoBS

Also, a SoB Terminator would require me to wash my pants

Samus_aran115 wrote:Also, a SoB Terminator would require me to wash my pants

Okaaaay......*creeps away slowly*

Valkyrie wrote:

Now I've calmed down a bit, why exactly did GW decide to change the huge wealth of fun that was old Codex into the excuse of a book that they call the 5th Edition Chaos Space Marine Codex?

Welcome to the realization all Chaos players had 3 years ago. The new codex just flat out sucks compared to the 3.5 version. Many of us still are very unhappy about it.

Whats funny is that under the current environment, especially considering 5th ed rules, the older codex would be a perfect fit into the current power struggle.

Iron Warriors would never get away with only having two units of 5 chaos marines as their only troops. Mishap could really screw with deamon bombs especially considering how the old deamon summoning rules worked. Running would help deamons since they can't shoot anyway. I think the old codex would play very well.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Also, a SoB Terminator would require me to wash my pants

That's what Repentia were originally going to be, but then they let their artists have fun with it and we ended up with fetish models instead.

Ha

Also,I allied celestine with some marines, just for kicks. My god she's amazing I'm taking her in every witch hunters list I make in the future.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Ha

Also,I allied celestine with some marines, just for kicks. My god she's amazing I'm taking her in every witch hunters list I make in the future.

She can be instantly killed in one hit by any weapon which is S6 or greater. Like, say... multi-lasers or autocannons. And she can be singled out in close combat. And when she dies, you lose faith points.

Don't take her unless you know full well what you're getting into, because she has way too many drawbacks.

Well that makes me sad

It really was a kick in the teeth when the current book came out. I would like to hope that with the general dislike and hate of the current book that it might make a new dex come out sooner but one can only hope.

I hope not. At least not until all the third edition codices are finished.

Wow i think the hardest hit dex was tau OMG its soooo thin... the fluff "area" total BS makes me sad....

Valkyrie wrote:

Illumini wrote:It was Jervisified. It was a horrible period where every new book was extremly boring and lacked options. The Blood Angel pdf codex is another example of this horrible period. At that time, you didn't look forward to your army getting updated, you were scared as hell for Jervis and his eraser

Oh god I hope that period ends some time soon.

This period has been over for a long time. The only books to get that simplified treatment were the Blood Angels pdf, Dark Angels, and Chaos Marines. They're back to a comfortable standard with rulebooks, and have been for a while.

Brother SRM wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

Illumini wrote:It was Jervisified. It was a horrible period where every new book was extremly boring and lacked options. The Blood Angel pdf codex is another example of this horrible period. At that time, you didn't look forward to your army getting updated, you were scared as hell for Jervis and his eraser

Oh god I hope that period ends some time soon.

This period has been over for a long time. The only books to get that simplified treatment were the Blood Angels pdf, Dark Angels, and Chaos Marines. They're back to a comfortable standard with rulebooks, and have been for a while.

HOW COULD YOU LEAVE OUT TAU???

CSM Player: Wow this 3.5 dex is awesome!

*Jervis walks up and kicks player in the nuts*

CSM Player: WTF!

Jervis: You've been Jervisified!

I am so glad that people are using the word 'Jervisified'.

Remember kids:

Jervis [Jer-viss] Jer-vised, Jer-vis-i-fy, Jer-vis-i-fied, Jer-vis-i-fi-ca-tion
–verb
1. to remove options inherent in a list. // 2. to reduce existing sub-lists into a single list. // 3. To triple (or more) the amount of Special Characters in a Codex. // 4. To take away. // 5. To give what isn't wanted nor needed.

Origin: Mid-1980's, England, Nottingham

Synonyms: Bland, Blandify, Codex: Dark Angels (4th Edition)

Antonyms: Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3.5 Edition)

Melissia wrote:That's funny, I looked forward to the Inquisition being removed from my third edition Sisters of Battle codex.

The thread's about Chaos, and yet you can't resist having yet another dig at Inquisitorial players?

I wonder if this will be yet another thread where every second post belongs to you?

The Jervis period ended, but his taint still roams GW. These days we have very stylish, flavorful armies and way too much power creep. I hypothesize a trend of 'new army book wins' until 6th comes out.

When it does end I hope it takes all the mandatory non-special Special Characters with it.

The old 3.5 ed CSM codex was fantastic, one of the best codices ever.

Now I've calmed down a bit, why exactly did GW decide to change the huge wealth of fun that was old Codex into the excuse of a book that they call the 5th Edition Chaos Space Marine Codex?

Well, just for simplicity reasons.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I am so glad that people are using the word 'Jervisified'.

Remember kids:

Jervis [Jer-viss] Jer-vised, Jer-vis-i-fy, Jer-vis-i-fied, Jer-vis-i-fi-ca-tion
–verb
1. to remove options inherent in a list. // 2. to reduce existing sub-lists into a single list. // 3. To triple (or more) the amount of Special Characters in a Codex. // 4. To take away. // 5. To give what isn't wanted nor needed.

Origin: Mid-1980's, England, Nottingham

Synonyms: Bland, Blandify, Codex: Dark Angels (4th Edition)

Antonyms: Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3.5 Edition)

LMAO . You sir are awesome!

And you, sir, raise an excellent point:

Iron Warriors: THOSE MOTHER-FETHING CAUTION STRIPES THEY WEAR ALL OVER THEIR ARMOUR!! Oh I hate those with such a passion. You're supposed to be the all-conquering seige specialists of chaos lads, not police crime scene investigators or construction workers. You're supposed to be tearing down the palace's of the false Emperor, not building one into a bypass of the A32...

I had never thought of it that way, and I play Iron Warriors (using the REAL Chaos Codex).

Little lord Fauntleroy coined that phrase. It made me laugh so much I had to put it on my sig. I never got the construction worker stripes on Iron Warriors.

I was going to get a big army of Chaos Marines, had it all planed out and I was just waiting for the new Codex to come out. then I bought Imperial Guard for the extra customization

Jervisification now belongs to my lexis.
However, there is not yet a German translation.

Jervisenstein.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Jervisenstein.

Lol. Sounds like a name. But nice try.

The only thing that keeps me going as an Iron Warriors player is the knowledge that, at some point, our codex will be updated to have more than half of its units actually be worth taking. (I AM LOOKING AT YOU HAVOCS!)

I don't think very many Chaos players think that they have the worst codex out there, as there are a couple truly competitive builds in there if you're willing to close your eyes to fluff. The codex has not aged well, though, and is starting to make the journey from "average" to "mediocre". I suspect by the time the DE/Necron/GK arc of codex releases is complete, Chaos is not going to be looking very good.

You've been Jervised... Just like my poor Tau codex. I played Chaos back in the glory days with my pure Khorn army. Ah, the good ol days.

I don't have any real experience of any previous chaos codexes to judge, but I'm okay with the current one, bland it may be, but I think it could be a lot worse.

apparently I missed out on all the fun of the old ones -_-

Bring back the anti-Jervis, Andy Chambers!!

The current one is garbage compared with the 3.5 ed one.

As a note, once I played in an RTT an EC army with 2 siren Lieutenants on bikes, 30 Daemonettes, 5 Daemonettes on steeds, Defiler and 3 Obliterators.

Guess who won the RTT. All other players were totally upset.

Guess why? The HQs turbo boosted first turn into the enemy lines. Next turn, the Daemonettes got summoned. In 4th turn, all games were over. Slaughter.

At least the current one doesn't leave people confused about the army list. For all its flaws, it is actually playable.

Playable? Yes, but there's no fun to play CSM anymore.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Melissia wrote:That's funny, I looked forward to the Inquisition being removed from my third edition Sisters of Battle codex.

The thread's about Chaos, and yet you can't resist having yet another dig at Inquisitorial players?

I wonder if this will be yet another thread where every second post belongs to you?

"Let's see... tyranid army.... modeling thread.... THREAD ABOUT CODEXES. Witch Hunters have a codex! Time to spread the hatred of Inquisition armies!"

wuestenfux wrote:Playable? Yes, but there's no fun to play CSM anymore.

That's arguable. I wouldn't know, I don't find them fun in EITHER book . But at least the new one has fewer arguments about what's legal.

That's not to say the old one wasn't better in many fashions (IE customizability), but the latter one is certainly better from the view of someone who doesn't play either. Sure, whenever they get their new codex, stuff should be added in, but that doesn't mean the newest CSM codex is entirely without merit.

Melissia wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Playable? Yes, but there's no fun to play CSM anymore.

That's arguable. I wouldn't know, I don't find them fun in EITHER book . But at least the new one has fewer arguments about what's legal.

That's not to say the old one wasn't better in many fashions (IE customizability), but the latter one is certainly better from the view of someone who doesn't play either. Sure, whenever they get their new codex, stuff should be added in, but that doesn't mean the newest CSM codex is entirely without merit.

Yes, and Us IG players got a codex done by some one that knew the difference between lead and erasers.

I'm about to "'Jervisify" this thread if it generates any more Mod Alerts...

Well, Iron Warriors were almost unstoppable in the 3.5 ed.
Indeed, they had access to 3x3 Obliterators in the elite section and HS units.
Other armies had only access to 3 Obliterators.

wuestenfux wrote:The current one is garbage compared with the 3.5 ed one.

As a note, once I played in an RTT an EC army with 2 siren Lieutenants on bikes, 30 Daemonettes, 5 Daemonettes on steeds, Defiler and 3 Obliterators.

Guess who won the RTT. All other players were totally upset.

Guess why? The HQs turbo boosted first turn into the enemy lines. Next turn, the Daemonettes got summoned. In 4th turn, all games were over. Slaughter.

And that army would not be nearly as effective under 5th ed rules. (BTW: True EC lists could not take obliterators as they could not take marks. Thus if you have them in the army you did not get the summoning bonus for the damonettes)

1 - The other guy could just stick everything in reserve. Now your damnonettes have nothing to kill.
2 - Mishap. Old deamon summoning rules had scatter. Bad scatter rolls could easily result in mishap issues.
3 - Rending nerf. Damonettes are now only 1/2 to 1/3 as good at killing things with rending, and cant touch AV14.
4 - Combat resolution modifiers would be murder against LD8 and instability.

The army would still be playable and work, but the fight would no longer be one sided.

Jayden63 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:The current one is garbage compared with the 3.5 ed one.

As a note, once I played in an RTT an EC army with 2 siren Lieutenants on bikes, 30 Daemonettes, 5 Daemonettes on steeds, Defiler and 3 Obliterators.

Guess who won the RTT. All other players were totally upset.

Guess why? The HQs turbo boosted first turn into the enemy lines. Next turn, the Daemonettes got summoned. In 4th turn, all games were over. Slaughter.

And that army would not be nearly as effective under 5th ed rules. (BTW: True EC lists could not take obliterators as they could not take marks. Thus if you have them in the army you did not get the summoning bonus for the damonettes)

1 - The other guy could just stick everything in reserve. Now your damnonettes have nothing to kill.
2 - Mishap. Old deamon summoning rules had scatter. Bad scatter rolls could easily result in mishap issues.
3 - Rending nerf. Damonettes are now only 1/2 to 1/3 as good at killing things with rending, and cant touch AV14.
4 - Combat resolution modifiers would be murder against LD8 and instability.

The army would still be playable and work, but the fight would no longer be one sided.

In fact, it was not pure EC.
In that edition, it was not able to hold units back in reserve.
I remember that in each game I lost one or two units from scattering, e.g., the Obliterators vs. IG.
However, scattering was not such a problem since the Lieutenants had personal icons.
In the current incarnation of the game, the army would not be as nearly as good as it was.
By the way, I played it only once in an RTT. The other gamers would have killed me.

The moment I lost my chainaxes for my World Eaters I devoted my remaining days to utterly destroying the man responsible. You can take away my chainaxes but I'm taking something from you as well!

If you guys wanna see awsome just remembre this all these books, codex's and such are after GW's own words (The Books are just guidelines to follow not really rules the main purpose is to have fun). Try dusting off your old copy of Rouge Trader and build and army from scratch and yes its capable of having monsterous demon/champions 500+ and vehicles so big and powerful it leaves the emagination totally open. I am not a big fan of buying updated books/codex's every 3-5 yrs costing me $20-50 each time. But me being the loyal gamer I am I pay the money anyways just to play. Now all I really need is a bigger table lol 4x8 is perfect for me

candy.man wrote:n00b CSM Player: Wow this 3.5 dex is awesome!
Old CSM Player: WTF!

*Jervis walks up and kicks player in the nuts*

n00b CSM Player: WTF!
Old CSM Player: LOLZ!

FYP.

wuestenfux wrote:Jervisification now belongs to my lexis.
However, there is not yet a German translation.

Jervisst?

On topic, when the new CSM Codex came out, I died a little inside and hung up my 40K hat temporarily. Even as an utter newb (at the time), I saw the attrocities they did to that codex.

Kurgash wrote:The moment I lost my chainaxes for my World Eaters I devoted my remaining days to utterly destroying the man responsible. You can take away my chainaxes but I'm taking something from you as well!

What? Did chainaxes have a bonus at any point? They're just CCWs...

Evil Games Workshop leader : "Jervis Time to ruin the Chaos space marines , execute order 55 " .

Jervis : " Yes my lord ."

Kid : "yey a new chaos codex , time to beg my parents for more cash!"

1 day latter

Kid : " That suckded ".

Jervis ruinded chaos space marines ! he is a .

How do people who complain that the 3.5 ed codex was broken reconcile the fact that the 4th edition one has Lash of Submission?
4th edition chaos is badly designed, full of obviously good and bad choices that mean that armies are incredibly samey.

Gw is a company not darth vader and his attendants....

OMG WHAT?
YOU MEAN GW IS A BUSINESS!
No one ever pointed that out before. This changes everything.

Hmmm...let me dig out my 3.5 CSM codex. Wow. So many great things in that old codex. I'm so glad my cousin never had to see his Word Bearer's felled by the new 'dex.

I dun sweat most changes because I think I can win almost any battle with and codex army, I have the newest CSM codex and my only problem is no allies so go fig I just want to use about 1,000 pts of Traitor Guard in my CSM listing what is so wrong about that?

The new Codex has removed every bit of originality that the old one was rich of

...

due to the simplification and streamlining

I think THIS is what has been bugging me most since I started getting back into 40k. The whole "streamlining" thing is a good idea in principle, but the way it has been, and is being implemented is completely silly.

The second edition of 40k was awesome, full of richness and variety. Wargear cards allowed you to turn nearly any IC into what would now be considered a SC. Vehicle upgrade cards did the same thing for vehicles. There was so much detail put into every little aspect. Flamers could set people on fire and leave them running about randomly taking damage every turn while their buddies tried to beat out the flames, many other weapons went into similar detail as to their effects. Troops could be poisoned, frightened, terrified, stupid, mad, frenzied, blinded and hate each other. There was a warp card deck which made the psychic phase into what was almost a game in itself, and psychic energy could be stored into force weapons and unleashed for amazing destructive power. There were chaos gifts, summoning points for demons, strategy (fate) cards, combat drugs, viruses, booby traps. Units could hide, and set overwatch to fire on enemy when they emerged from cover. Tanks could overrun troops and kill them (not just tank shock). And pretty much everything in the Ork codex had a 50/50 chance of either being awesome or exploding, or sometimes both... (gretchin 'ed-bangerz' were a personal favourite of mine).

In my opinion this stuff wasn't 'too complicated' it was the most fun part, that added interest and personality to the game.

Second edition wasn't perfect though. There were a few things that could have really done with fixing and streamlining... For starters "choosing a target" for shooting, was very over complicated and confusing. Close combat between ICs was great, but was a bit slow for squads fighting. There was an annoying disparity between Armour Penetration, Armour Save, and Toughness which probably didn't need to exist. And psychic powers (though interesting and fun) were poorly integrated with the rest of the game.

When I look at the game today I see that most of the stuff that needed fixing then, still needs fixing. Choosing a target is as complicated as ever, the combat system seems to have become even more complicated and nonsensical, while also managing to loose the level of detail it had during IC fights (fumbles, critical hits, parry etc...). And the same disparity exists between AP, Armour Save and Toughness.

All of this stuff seems to have been completely ignored during the 'streamlining' process. And what has gone are all the parts that made the game rich and interesting. And the army lists have become so ridiculously oversimplified that they or on the verge of making anything different to 'out of the box' against the rules. I used to look at the army lists in 2nd Ed and see possibilities. Now all I see are oppressive limits that force every army to bland.

In all of this streamlining I feel that games workshop have essentially... Cut away the meat and left the fat.

SmackCakes wrote:Everything was better before!

Most of this is just plain wrong. I didn't play 2nd ed, but I've played necromunda (that's pretty close to the 2nd ed rules). It is a very nice rule-set for small skirmishes, but try throwing the amount of models we use today on the table and play be 2nd ed rules. It would take days to finish a game. From what I know of 2nd/3rd ed, it was very poorly balanced, some things like virusbombs and eldar disruption could win the game with a few rolls. (the eldar thing even happened before the game started)

The armybooks we have gotten since Orks have all had lots and lots of options, introducing many new units and many different build-options.

There is nothing complicated about choosing a target for shooting, you pick your target, check LOS and range and you're done, what is difficult about that?
What disparity exists between AP, armour save and toughness?
Melee rules are pretty easy actually, there are some slightly complicated rules there, but that is for the more complex situations with many units involved, and IMO, the rules are good, they are well written, not muddy, but you do have to dedicate some time to learn them right.


I think that 5h ed have brought with it the most balanced 40k game ever, and a bunch of very nice new codexes with tons of options.

The only thing that has been lost since 4th ed is the wargear options. Most of them were too complicated anyways, and tons of the stuff was totally useless.

Melissia wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Ha

Also,I allied celestine with some marines, just for kicks. My god she's amazing I'm taking her in every witch hunters list I make in the future.

She can be instantly killed in one hit by any weapon which is S6 or greater. Like, say... multi-lasers or autocannons. And she can be singled out in close combat. And when she dies, you lose faith points.

Don't take her unless you know full well what you're getting into, because she has way too many drawbacks.

Faith points will probably be non existent come september when the Inquistition codex arrives!

I'm horrified by the current trend for upscaling codex! Blood angels and Space Wolves seem to be very strong compared to the other forces around. If a new Chaos codes was on its way I'd love to see what they'd do to even the playing field. as it is you'd have to be a pretty experienced player to get one over these two Marine forces with the current Chaos codex! It'd also be nice to see them get Drop pods and a full range of vehicles! Bloody GW!

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:Gw is a company not darth vader and his attendants....

They'd be so much cooler if they were though!

"Impressive... most impressive!"

Vader rules!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for the blurry pic!

candy.man wrote:When I first read the current Tau book I was like where the hell is Anghkor Prok and Aun'Shi? They were favourites of mine.

God I know right? it got so bad I actually went off the deepend and started rewritting it myself with the rational for every change...it works out pretty well, cause it brings back a lot of the mobility the tau used to rule at...

Kurgash wrote:The moment I lost my chainaxes for my World Eaters I devoted my remaining days to utterly destroying the man responsible. You can take away my chainaxes but I'm taking something from you as well!

...his skull?

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Kurgash wrote:The moment I lost my chainaxes for my World Eaters I devoted my remaining days to utterly destroying the man responsible. You can take away my chainaxes but I'm taking something from you as well!

What? Did chainaxes have a bonus at any point? They're just CCWs...

They were "heavy CCWs" just like ork choppas and any armour save better than 4+ was reduced to 4+

It made terminators cry.

sniperjolly wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Kurgash wrote:The moment I lost my chainaxes for my World Eaters I devoted my remaining days to utterly destroying the man responsible. You can take away my chainaxes but I'm taking something from you as well!

What? Did chainaxes have a bonus at any point? They're just CCWs...

They were "heavy CCWs" just like ork choppas and any armour save better than 4+ was reduced to 4+

It made terminators cry.

Yeah I have fond memories of getting absolutely murdered by Chain-Axes by someone when I first started 40K

Melissia wrote:At least the current one doesn't leave people confused about the army list.

If the last Codex confused anyone, then those people were stupid, and lacked reading comprehension skills.

Complex =/= complicated.

Melissia wrote:For all its flaws, it is actually playable.

Another fantastic comment. The last Codex was playable... playable in lots of different ways. The new one... well it's certainly playable, and quite powerful - if you like one flavour vanilla. It's powerful vanilla - a very strong flavour - but it's only one flavour, and quite dull because of that.

The problem with the new codex was that GW was caught up in the whole badab thing, and wanted more of a Codex: Renagades (and Black Legion) than Codex: Traitor Legions That Went Rouge In The Horus Heresy. That would be OK, except that they went halfway and precluded a new "Legions" book because they put Failbbadon and Typhus in there along with the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children.

Illumini wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:Everything was better before!

I did not say everything was better before at all, and I'll thank you not to twist my words into some straw man for you to argue against. Some things have improved. I like the way cover saves work in the new game as well as going to ground, and I like that psychic powers have become better integrated (though they still do feel a little 'patched on". I am sure that the game is more balanced now too.

illumini wrote:Most of this is just plain wrong.

Actually nothing I said was wrong. All of that stuff really was in second edition, that's a fact. A lot of it has been removed now that is also a fact. Does that detract from the richness of the game? It most certainly does. Is it worth trading richness for speed? That is a matter of opinion... I have my opinion, you may disagree. But that does not make anything I said untrue.

I didn't play 2nd ed, but I've played necromunda (that's pretty close to the 2nd ed rules). It is a very nice rule-set for small skirmishes, but try throwing the amount of models we use today on the table and play be 2nd ed rules. It would take days to finish a game.

So you haven't played 2nd ed. Necromunda is not the same, it was far more involved than 40k ever was and possibly closer to Rogue Trader in many respects. 2nd edition didn't have ammo rolls, downed units, pinned units and a lot of the other stuff that makes Necromunda slow. There were plenty of big games back then and they didn't take 'days'. I remember getting through a 3000 point game in an evening. I don't think games took significantly longer back then than they do now, being as vast majority of game time is always taken up by moving units, rolls for shooting, and removing pieces. All stuff that is still in the game... adding on 20 seconds to work out the effects of a wargear card that might only be used once a game is not a big deal.

From what I know of 2nd/3rd ed, it was very poorly balanced, some things like virusbombs and eldar disruption could win the game with a few rolls. (the eldar thing even happened before the game started)

Again! I never said 2nd edition was better. I never said the balance was better (I'm sure you are right that it wasn't). All I said is that 5th edition lacks the richness of older editions. And again I feel this is a fact, since 5th edition is essentially the same as just with less stuff.

And in any case, If something is unbalanced it would seem the obvious thing to do would be to balance it, or re-do it and make it better... not remove it completely forever!!!

There is nothing complicated about choosing a target for shooting, you pick your target, check LOS and range and you're done, what is difficult about that?

Things become complicated when units like a marine tac squad has a missile launcher and bolt guns in the same unit. Do they still all have to target the same unit still? Then you add in MCs intervening units, half in cover units, buildings that prevent LOS and it can become quite messy.

What disparity exists between AP, armour save and toughness?

Vehicles have armour and troops have armour. These are the same thing yet are dealt with completely differently. Vehicles have AP troops have armour save and a different AP.

Troops also have skin and muscle that might absorb a shot and protect them, this is called toughness... Except when the troops are Tyranids when for some reason their skin is counted as armour instead of toughness?

Why have so many different systems for what is essentially the same thing?

If someone really wanted to 'streamline' the game, they could half the number of dice rolls in the shooting phase by consolidating these things into one easy roll.

Melee ... there are some slightly complicated rules there, but that is for the more complex situations with many units involved

You admit the melee rules are complicated. I'm glad we agree.

Here is an example of them being complicated: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/304400.page

I think that 5h ed have brought with it the most balanced 40k game ever, and a bunch of very nice new codexes with tons of options.

Not counting new units which have obviously been added with the passage of time, the new lists are more restrictive than the old lists. Balance and richness are completely separate issues.

This topic is a perfect example of the new lists being too restrictive:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/303752.page

I feel I am perfectly justified in what I said.

I will still defend that 5th is far better than 4th, and that I never played RT (the oldest I've ever played was 1st ed space hulk... unless 2nd ed Blood Bowl is older.) I loved reading things like 'ere we go, however, and respect that it was a different game. Hey, anyone remember an army consisting of two assassins, one with a vortex grenade, and one with a virus bomb? You basically had to circle the wagons and put your entire army on overwatch, praying that they would fumble it.

geordie09 wrote:Faith points will probably be non existent come september when the Inquistition codex arrives!

To use the exact word that Jervis Johnson said, the combined codexis "utter fanwank". There has never been any official support behind it, just some rumor mongers that wish to destroy the four armies involved by mashing them all together into one incoherent mess.

It's believed that either Dark Eldar or Grey Knights will be in september/october/november, and then the other one of those two will be in mid-January (probably Grey Knights).


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H.B.M.C. wrote:[snip]

Insulting people is hardly a good way to make your point. No, I've heard many complaints that the wargear and gifts and whatnot were overly complex.

sniperjolly wrote:The problem with the new codex was that GW was caught up in the whole badab thing, and wanted more of a Codex: Renagades (and Black Legion) than Codex: Traitor Legions That Went Rouge In The Horus Heresy. That would be OK, except that they went halfway and precluded a new "Legions" book because they put Failbbadon and Typhus in there along with the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children.

Personally I reckon your opinion is more or less correct however the current book seems to be more of a Red Corsairs and marines that when rogue after the horus heresy codex rather than a veteran foes from the Heresy codex. This is apparent because there are no veterans/veteran skills of any kind. CSM according to fluff have a longer lifespan due to living in the warp and are therefore evil veteran foes and champions are even more powerful due to chaos blessings. The fact that the current book doesn't have a combat tactics equivalent (or veteran skills from the previous book) suggests that the 1000+ years of training since the heresy, they are less trained than basic SM tact marines . I don't think super sneaky chosen who are rich enough to equip 5 meltaguns doesn’t count as veterans. I also reckon that the current book is not a Black Legion codex either. As soon as there is some kind of elite, fearless terminator vanguard unit/veteran unit, then it will be a Black Legion book.

Off Topic: I don’t know why people think bland = Black Legion. Bland is more of the case with Red Corsairs or some other generic piratical Chaos Warband.

Melissia wrote:Insulting people is hardly a good way to make your point.

No, passive aggressive trolling is a far better strategy.

Melissia wrote:No, I've heard many complaints that the wargear and gifts and whatnot were overly complex.

... from idiots.

You'd have to be stupid not to understand the last Codex. Low IQ. Dense. Village idiot level intelligence. Dumb. Not in command of one's mental faculties.

Morons.

candy.man wrote:Personally I reckon your opinion is more or less correct however the current book seems to be more of a Red Corsairs and marines that when rogue after the horus heresy codex rather than a veteran foes from the Heresy codex.

He is correct. The Powers That Be wanted to separate Chaos from Chaos Marines, and if everything had gone there way there would be no Daemons of any sort in the current 'Chaos' Codex. As Gav Thorpe said, the 'Generic Daemons' we have were a compromise. Those up stairs wanted the Daemons out because they wanted to give them their own book. Gav (and some others I'd imagine) argued against that, and the results were the Lesser and Not-Quite-So-Greater Daemons that stink up the 'Chaos' Codex with their blandness.

I wrote a review a while back - a big long review of the Chaos Codex - when it first came out and one of my comments was how long it took to actually talk about the Horus Heresy. It spends pages talking about Renegades, then finally mentions the Heresy (almost because it can't avoid it), but then goes and lumps all the Traitor Legions in with the various Renegade Chapters, hitting home the point that Legions in 40K now are just paint jobs, rather than distinct armies or combat doctrines (unlike Marines - who have to have three different Codices because there are three Chapters that fight in HTH slightly differently from one another).

Melissia wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:[snip]

Insulting people is hardly a good way to make your point. No, I've heard many complaints that the wargear and gifts and whatnot were overly complex.

HBMC's points are valid. I don't know if I would go so far as to deem someone stupid for being confused by the wargear rules, but I would definitely say that there is a problem if you can't understand the wargear rules, and a bigger problem if you think that the new codex was a good solution to the perceived problem.

I am inclined to agree as well as an owner of the 3.5 book since it was first released. There were some broken combos but compared to BA and SW, it is sorta even. Funny enough if GW were to take the 3.5 book, re-cost it, tweak the upgrades to reduce synergy, you would have a good 5th codex that would be comparable to other 5th edition books

I might shed some light on what was the perceived issue with the 3.5 book. There were too many passive upgrades that gave strength bonuses that could be stacked. When people state that the 3.5 book was overpowered, they are usually over exaggerating at this. This was only an issue for the HQ type units, which 3.5 players were only allowed 2 of. (not 4 like SW) Normally this resulted in 1 unstoppable 200-300 point “hero” and the rest of the army being average. All an opponent had to do was tie up a CSM player's “hero” with gretchins/fodder and deal with the rest of the army. Now comparing this to reclusiarch death company or blood talons and it is not so bad.

The whole Iron Warriors being allowed to swap fast attack for Heavy support wasn't an issue in my opinion (as a player would usually run points and have hardly any bodies on the field) when you compare it to LOS + vindicator spam or hose guard (which is much much worse)

blood reaper wrote:Evil Games Workshop leader : "Jervis, It is time to ruin the Chaos space marines, execute Order 55 " .

Jervis : " Yes, my lord."

Kid : "Yay a new chaos codex , time to beg my parents for more cash!"

1 day later

Kid : "OH GOD WHY! MY BRAIN! IT'S MELTIIING!! MELLLTING!! HOW COULD THIS EXIST!!" *Rolls on the floor babbling blasphemic incoherencies while foaming at the mouth*.

Fixed that for you.

I gotta agree with you all on the flavor aspect...and the fact that GW loves their smurfs...But to be honest unless you're an uber tournie nut (which if you are more power to you) CSM has as much flavor as you want it to. I know a guy who made an entire (and pretty kick ass) Emperor's children army, and even fluffed a way to get khorne berzerkers in (he said they were high on life sort of thing...like lucius the eternal) So to be fair, as long as you're not DOOM DOOM I MUST WIN EVERYTHING you can still have lots of fun with an army list and still be effective...you just gotta, i dunno, try to be? rather than saying urgh that sucks I mean you spent the 25 bucks, might as well make it worth it?

Ribon Fox wrote:Bring back the anti-Jervis, Andy Chambers!!

Yes, because 3rd ed was a wonderful time for 40K. For feth's sake, nostalgia is nice but reality matters.

The 3.5 Chaos Codex was a great read, awesome to build lists with and absolutely horrible to play with or against. There were a million options but no strategic framework, resulting in armies built around one dimensional lists, then tooled up with most underpriced options.

The 4th ed codex is not a great codex, the HQ options aren't that exciting, and a few units are poorly designed and costed. It did shown design considerations that were badly needed, there was a focus on units as filling a unique role on the battlefield, and in making troops valuable as versatile units (previously troops were typically either good because they were as killy as elite and heavy options, or they were junk). Even still, criticism of the codex is not out of place, it simply isn't as well designed as the subsequent Ork, Space Marine and IG codices.

But it has to be remembered that for all the fun in reading the 3.5 codex and building lists with it it was a poor codex in play, and that for all the faults of the 4th ed Chaos codex, at least it was part of the process that saw the game end up in a pretty fun place.


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Illumini wrote:Most of this is just plain wrong. I didn't play 2nd ed, but I've played necromunda (that's pretty close to the 2nd ed rules). It is a very nice rule-set for small skirmishes, but try throwing the amount of models we use today on the table and play be 2nd ed rules. It would take days to finish a game. From what I know of 2nd/3rd ed, it was very poorly balanced, some things like virusbombs and eldar disruption could win the game with a few rolls. (the eldar thing even happened before the game started)

Mate, you have no idea how ridiculous 2nd ed could get. You would throw smoke grenades to cover your advance, and then spend the first twenty minutes of every turn rolling to see if each grenade got smaller, or where it scattered to. Each grenade. Each turn.

Assault was resolved in individual combats, model by model.

Terminators rolled their armour saves on two dice, which sounds like a fun idea until you try to bring them down with massed smalls arms fire from multiple units. Try rolling 2D6 thirty times and see how fun it gets.

2nd was a collection of fun ideas, with little consideration given to how the idea interacted, and the result was a hopelessly bloated game that would take hours to play out each moment or irrelevant minutiae, while giving few if any actual tactical decisions.

I think that 5h ed have brought with it the most balanced 40k game ever, and a bunch of very nice new codexes with tons of options.

The only thing that has been lost since 4th ed is the wargear options. Most of them were too complicated anyways, and tons of the stuff was totally useless.

Yeah, very much that. Wargear tended to be mandatory or useless, it rarely made games more interesting.


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H.B.M.C. wrote:... from idiots.

You'd have to be stupid not to understand the last Codex. Low IQ. Dense. Village idiot level intelligence. Dumb. Not in command of one's mental faculties.

Morons.

Or, you'd be a person who didn't have to remember the minutiae of every other codex to be able to make basic tactical decisions when playing against the old Chaos codex.

The complexity of a codex isn't just a factor for the guy playing it, it's a factor for the guy he's playing against as well.

I don't play CSMs, but as my brother does, they have been my regular opponent since 3rd edition~ (Although I was absent from the hobby for 4th edition). I think the new codex is very good from an opponents perspective. He plays Iron Warriors, and although he has had to retire his Basilisk and by choice his havocs, he still has a very themed army that is a real challenge to play against and fares well against all his regular opponents and in all mission scenarios (although he has only beaten my nids once ).

The centre piece of his army is a 10 man squad of noise marines, who in his army's fluff are actually not noise marines at all, but cyberneticly and bionically enhanced marines (all converted up they look great)~ their guns that can choose to be Assault 2 24" bolters, or Heavy 3 36" bolters, cause some serious dakka, and are very in theme with Iron Warriors ^^

His Warlord has a mark of khorne, but this is simply a way for him to get another attack represented by all the servo-arms on his back pack~

I'm not quite sure of the exact point I was trying to make, just that his army is really fun to play with and that you don't need tailored lists for each legion to make themed armies ^^
He's told me a couple of times that he prefers the new codex over the old one in terms of playability.

Melissia wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Also, a SoB Terminator would require me to wash my pants

That's what Repentia were originally going to be, but then they let their artists have fun with it and we ended up with fetish models instead.

You're just hatin' cuz you can't fill out a razorwire thong like they can.

ph34r wrote:

Melissia wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:[snip]

Insulting people is hardly a good way to make your point. No, I've heard many complaints that the wargear and gifts and whatnot were overly complex.

HBMC's points are valid. I don't know if I would go so far as to deem someone stupid for being confused by the wargear rules, but I would definitely say that there is a problem if you can't understand the wargear rules, and a bigger problem if you think that the new codex was a good solution to the perceived problem.

I never said it was a good solution.

Only that it wasn't the devil incarnate...

Apparently not bashing the latest CSM codex as "THE WURST TIHNG EVAR!" is flamebait.

sebster wrote:

Mate, you have no idea how ridiculous 2nd ed could get. You would throw smoke grenades to cover your advance, and then spend the first twenty minutes of every turn rolling to see if each grenade got smaller, or where it scattered to. Each grenade. Each turn.

You forgot about vortex grenades just bouncing around the field the whole game, randomly wiping stuff out....theirs and yours...

Since we're talking about crazy editions, I hope 6th edition 40K is half-Epic, much like 8th WFB is half-Warmaster. Make the Spearhead vehicle rules part of the core rules, drop the cost of everything by like 25-50%, and streamline everything so you can still get a 2000 point game in under two hours. They'd make so much damn money! And I'd field sooo many damn guardsmen!

agnosto wrote:

sebster wrote:

Mate, you have no idea how ridiculous 2nd ed could get. You would throw smoke grenades to cover your advance, and then spend the first twenty minutes of every turn rolling to see if each grenade got smaller, or where it scattered to. Each grenade. Each turn.

You forgot about vortex grenades just bouncing around the field the whole game, randomly wiping stuff out....theirs and yours...

And then there's the Ork stuff.

Yeah. The Shokk Attack Gun is tame compared to 2nd edition Ork wargear.

I actually remember when I first bought the Codex way back randomly walking into my shop, unaware Chaos got an update. Bought it immedietly and drove home gitty. Sat down for a few hours just reading the stories, any sort of new look at the Horus Heresy and looking for juicy World Eater fluff. Suddenly I reached the unit options and was struck at odds, wondering where the gifts were. I read further and saw the marks had not changed too much *was so overjoyed to see Khorne no longer caused raging* went through the stats "OH! Chaos Lords are WS 6 now!? HOTNESS!" Sorcerers got a nice buff but didn't care as Khorne didn't allow them. Saw the possessed and became puzzled. Then we got to the troops and I saw my Berzerkers gained a great buff yet sadly lost their chainaxes :(. A loss but now I don't have to blow a bunch of points on vetern skills, now I can spend more on counter attack! *more on that soon* Thumbed up the defiler, not much changed except now it's a dread and not a MC. Eh ok. Then more fluff. Cool. Now we get to the back of the book and again army unit selection. Where is the daemonic gift section? The books of chaos? Wtf? WTF NO VETERN SKILLS!? WTF MIXED GODS!? EXPLAIN THIS bs!!!!!!

Much to say I had a nice long sitdown and pondered wtf would become of my World Eater list. The only saving grace was Kharn got a JUICY bonus for a mere few points. Unfortunately I can't claim he shoots a friendly unit on a roll of 1 with his pistol. Oh well.

Then I realized my demons were gone and everything within a 2 mile radius could feel the palpable rage seething out of my fists.

Terminus wrote:Since we're talking about crazy editions, I hope 6th edition 40K is half-Epic, much like 8th WFB is half-Warmaster. Make the Spearhead vehicle rules part of the core rules, drop the cost of everything by like 25-50%, and streamline everything so you can still get a 2000 point game in under two hours. They'd make so much damn money! And I'd field sooo many damn guardsmen!

Right cause being able to field 1000 squishy guardsmen isnt enough already XD I've actually seen that...some guy did it, maxing out every slot of the FOC with guardsmen of some sort...it was murder to play against
OK movement phase!
4 Hours Later
OK! Check LOS for the shooting phase!

dbsamurai wrote:

Terminus wrote:Since we're talking about crazy editions, I hope 6th edition 40K is half-Epic, much like 8th WFB is half-Warmaster. Make the Spearhead vehicle rules part of the core rules, drop the cost of everything by like 25-50%, and streamline everything so you can still get a 2000 point game in under two hours. They'd make so much damn money! And I'd field sooo many damn guardsmen!

Right cause being able to field 1000 squishy guardsmen isnt enough already XD I've actually seen that...some guy did it, maxing out every slot of the FOC with guardsmen of some sort...it was murder to play against
OK movement phase!
4 Hours Later
OK! Check LOS for the shooting phase!

Hence borrowing the streamlined phase resolution from Epic. Movement trays could make moving large number of models easy enough, and give GW yet another product to sell me.

I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

i agree!

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

Yes it is.

Other hobbies might be more expensive, but that doesn't change the fact that this one is.

Terminus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

o my this hobby is one of the priciest.

IT should be more then possible, for chaos SM to follow SM. The way I mean this is you have standard Vilnilla Ultramarines, and their close cousins in One Codex. All the very different Chapters got their own book, Black Templars, Blood Angels, ect ect. So couldn't you have a standard Chaos Marine Codex, ie Alpha Legion, and then army books for the god specific Chaos Marine armies, and maybe an Ally system like Inquisistion Had?? Hell it would mean GW would make you buy an extra book or two and make more money,

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

o my this hobby is one of the priciest.

yeah! For some people money is no object i guess...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

o my this hobby is one of the priciest.

yeah! For some people money is no object i guess...

Well im 14 and it is hard to come by! but clearly to others it's not that bad...

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

o my this hobby is one of the priciest.

yeah! For some people money is no object i guess...

Well im 14 and it is hard to come by! but clearly to others it's not that bad...

This post explains so much.

Expensive?

Compared to what? Let me compare it to some hobbies my friends and/or I have held in the past years.

Console Gaming:

- Buying a next gen console (I'm talking within the first year, you're not a videogamer if you wait 4 years for 3 price drops): 400-600$
- Buying an extra controller: 30-60
- Buying games: 40-70$ per

Computer Gaming:

- A powerful gaming computer is upward of a 1,000 and can go much higher. I have friend who's computer are powered by small suns and who makes Skynet look like a wuss... constantly upgrading it and tweaking with it... a 600$ video card? Sure, why not!
- And (legally at least), you still have to buy the game. In the case of MMO, the fee never really goes away.

LARP'ing

- Well made foam weapon can fetch in the 100$, and period item of clothing are also quite expensive. I have a friend who spent 500$ in preparation for a week long LARP.

Driving a Motorcycle

- Well, considering you're spending about 7,000$ (or much more really) on the bike itself, and you still got to buy gear and deal with licenses and stuff... I'm not even going to bother breaking that one down further. Worse, where I live, this is only a few months long activity (Summer). I ended up selling my bike

Snowboarding/Skying

- A couple hundreds to a bit over a thousand dollars on gear alone. And than you need a pass to go sky, which cost a lot in and out of themselves.

Going out and drinking

- At roughly 5$ a beer, plus bar food, plus the fact that you may want to go the restaurant... things can get crazy really fast. I've myself spend more than a 100$ in one night and I'm not the biggest offender... some people do this several time a week, every week.


They are cheaper hobbies of course... but I just listed some fairly common ones (Well except for LARPing, it isn't exactly common...) which are all more expensive to equally expensive. The problem for many people when they talk about miniature being expensive, is that they see it 'on top' of their other hobbies they already do, not replacing it.

Tarkand wrote:Computer Gaming:

- A powerful gaming computer is upward of a 1,000 and can go much higher.

$1000 for a custom-built good quality computer able to play most games without needing to upgrade for two or three years AND having non-gaming utility as well (including work or school related activities), and then games are ~20-50 USD per game. Steam has frequent sales, and I can get quite frequently get games for cheaper than I can a pack of ten Battle Sisters (with the second crappiest special weapon combinations available). There's no need for me to spend hours painting (ugh) or assembling anything (even my computer takes less time to assemble and plug in than to assemble and glue a squad of infantry), and I don't have to spend money and time traveling to a shop to enjoy it-- yes, that DOES cost money.

Anything compute-related really can't compare to wargaming though, as computers have an insanely higher amount of utility than wargaming miniatures.

The rate of progress with game minimum requirements has slowed. You can build a computer for $500-600 bucks and it'll play anything out there for a good 3-4 years. Crysis is still the most intensive game and it's been out for years. Of course, $500-600 buys a solid miniature collection if you do some bargain shopping.

That said, I could have bought a whole new 40K army with just the amount of money I spent putting lead downrange in the last 2-3 outings. Like Tarkland, I easily find myself dropping $100 on a night out on the town. Dock fees alone could buy me a new army or two every year. My latest custom 1911 was $2300, etc. In the grand scheme of things, miniature wargames are on the low end of the cost spectrum. About the only thing lower is sitting home alone masturbating, and even then you need tissues and lotion.

What perhaps makes it seem expensive is that you're shelling out hundreds of bucks for little pieces of plastic that are worth pennies, and then putting further hours of work into making them playable (much less presentable). And that's really the big limiter in miniature wargames for me. It's not the cost of the models, but the time I have to spend making them tabletop ready.

My computer may have cost me $1200, and the tablet $400, but it's made more money for me and expanded my portfolio so much that it's value is imeasurable. Wargaming has done none of that for me.

It's not that I can't pay for the hobby--By the end of the summer and after university costs, I'll have $5000 just sitting there, more than enough to fulfill my recreational needs. The problem is justifying it. And as it stands, GW's methods of pricing and expansion walk the line of 'unjustifiably expensive.'

Sure, compared to some other hobbies, wargaming is not particularly expensive, but it still is expensive.

I won't! In fact, until next year I'll be in debt* yay me! Or something to that effect.

*(to my family, thankfully, rather than a company that's going to screw me over horribly)

Wow how have the Dakka OT police not come down on this I don't think this is related to codex CSM at ALL this all probably goes in the rants on how much GW charges or how the whole company is EVILLLLLL or something similar...
As to what you said Terminus about 6th maybe drawing on epic I think fafnir was right at least as far as movement trays and all go, They got APOC for that...and besides, if I wanted movement trays I'd play WHFB and run gak over with battalions of Knights Errant What I would like to see tho is a loosening of Squad coherency rules, at least in buildings, just for the sake of realism
EX, to be able to have a team occupying a large building fire from anywhere they can in there, alla Saving Private Ryan. As it stands I need three squads minimum to do that... because they all need to stay within 2", even across levels...It'd be much more dynamic to say that a squad in a building is in coherency, while if even one model leaves they must ALL be in coherency...that'd make it seem like they're really holding a building rather than just oh I put my models here to give my squishy guardsmen the saves of marines

... and you're trying to say OUR posts are off-topic?



There's pretty much nothing that wil ever get me to collect CSMs, but as I said previously in this thread, I'd love a LatD army.

It would actually be pretty cool to have a mixed army that consisted of LatD and CSM.

Apocalypse doesn't really do it for me, as it uses the standard rules and large games can take a really long time to resolve. As far as I'm concerned, Apocalypse is less about large games, and more about using crazy combinations and weird Forge World stuff.

As a 15 year CSM player I must agree. The new codex hella sucks! I think the idea came about because the prior codex was so abusable. (No torches and pitchforks please. Just look at the Iron Warrior list and smell the imported gouda.) Demons were a terrifying weapon; especially the ones attached to the banner that let you auto-summon a unit right where you wanted it, then charge; as your opponent cried, "Not in the face!"
The new codex paradigm seems to be: no wargear lists, only special characters can be cool, and 'simplification'. However, almost every last tidbit of flavor was removed from the list. Demons blow as they got their own army. They took away veteran abilities, but could have kept them ala Berzerkers and Plaguies. Unfortunately, we now have the most basic list in the game. For those who doubt, check out the codex. Almost every entry has the EXACT same list of options: champ for 15, he can have a power weapon or power fist...


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wuestenfux wrote:Playable? Yes, but there's no fun to play CSM anymore.

Preach on, my brother! A friend once said that he was terrified to play my army. Not because of the power, but rather because he never knew what I was going to bring. That element of CSM is pretty much gone now. There are units I have simply not seen played anymore, like possessed.

Melissia wrote:... and you're trying to say OUR posts are off-topic?



There's pretty much nothing that wil ever get me to collect CSMs, but as I said previously in this thread, I'd love a LatD army.

Lol so sue me
Eh, I'm not impressed with what I've seen of the LatD...it seems too much like guard without everything that makes guard fun like tanks and guns and...tanks...
I mean I think it'd be cool to have traitor guard allies for the CSM, cause it'd cement their whole "we are the elite and better than you emparah luhving heathens" but I really would rather see Them bring back the uniqueness of the armies, more than "Khorne like CC, Slaneesh is fast, Tzeentch is sorcery, Nurgle wont...die..." especially with more of the SM facet armies, but not on their own
I for one am a firm believer in that whole "they're supposed to be warbands, you would never face a whole legion unless it was the black legion" line of thinking, so I think it's be cooler to see a combined force of traitor guard, world eaters, and word bearors than like, I WILL SPAM BERZERKERS BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD or whatever nonsense I see from twelve year olds at the LA bunker these days...

LatD are mutants, aliens, and the daemon-possessed who are enthralled to the ruinous powers. This could easily include daemon-possessed vehicles (such as the Defiler).

LatD did include Guard tanks, and Defilers.

LatD are a fun army to play and a fan army to build.

Ah, I am sorely mistaken then, you'll have to forgive me all I've seen of LatD is the stuff that was in the old 4th ed rulebook, and to be honest it looked pretty...fail...looked like a bunch of shirtless guardsmen with horns and pokey things and one or two defilers...no flavor AT ALL...so forgive my n008ness in this area
*crawls on knees and does the worship wave*
PLEEEASE FORGIIIIVE MEEEEEEEEEE
Tho some of the traitor guardsmen I've seen have been pretty sick...ironicly its the ones who are chaos undividied...

Terminus wrote:Apocalypse doesn't really do it for me, as it uses the standard rules and large games can take a really long time to resolve. As far as I'm concerned, Apocalypse is less about large games, and more about using crazy combinations and weird Forge World stuff.

Then push for Epic to return. Or better yet, if you like the scale of 40k, just play epic at 40k scale.

Don't ruin my 40k further just because you want a different game then what you bought.

Fafnir wrote:Then push for Epic to return. Or better yet, if you like the scale of 40k, just play epic at 40k scale.

Don't ruin my 40k further just because you want a different game then what you bought.

Epic in 40k scale is exactly what I'm asking for.

Change is inevitable. GW turned fantasy on its head with the latest edition, and by all indications the game has never had such a surge of interest. There's a good chance they will follow the buck and do something similarly outrageous to 40K.

If you want epic in 40k scale, there's nothing stopping you from playing epic in 40k scale.

But if we already have 40k and we already have Epic, why do you want it to change so we only have Epic and Epic?

We don't really have Epic.

I just miss the old days of cult dreads and cult termies.....I miss the collar of Khorne.....I miss an aspiring champion retinue all on juggernauts.....I miss themed armies like my all Death Guard army......I miss Chaos.....what we have now is a watered down version...Chaos doesnt even seem to be the hated enemies of the Imperium, rather we are just an afterthought all holed up in the Eye of Terror. I just hope that someone at GW will see all this and perhaps we will see Codex: Death Guard or Codex: World Eaters etc.......Hey I can dream cant I?


Oh and one more thing I miss is Greater Deamons that had different profiles depending on the god.....Oh how I miss my Chaos of old.

Terminus wrote:We don't really have Epic.

Which is good for me, as I don't want to play it....

Just like I don't care for apocalypse either.

Melissia wrote:
Just like I don't care for apocalypse either.

Blasphemy! nothing like big ass guns blowing gak up!
actually I have to agree with you, apoc needs some serious work for the biggest problem evident on any apoc BR
the parkinglot problem
People need to get more creative with their tables, like using tables on wheels to move them so you can reach models and stuff....
Personally I would also like to see something like kill team/patrol missions, like a desparate hold out by hopelessly outnumbered forces...
like planet strike with a greater disparity in defender/attacker sizes

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:Wow i think the hardest hit dex was tau OMG its soooo thin... the fluff "area" total BS makes me sad....

Whilst 3rd Edition Tau codex had more fluff, most of it was really boring and lazily written. So it's not a huge loss. As a rule, I do not like too detailed history fluff, it's good to leave some stuff for imagination - see Necron codex.

And current Tau codex has plenty of options and units. Sure, many of them aren't GOOD options and in fact much of the wargear don't even work properly under current ruleset, but it's there...

Backfire wrote:

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:Wow i think the hardest hit dex was tau OMG its soooo thin... the fluff "area" total BS makes me sad....

Whilst 3rd Edition Tau codex had more fluff, most of it was really boring and lazily written. So it's not a huge loss. As a rule, I do not like too detailed history fluff, it's good to leave some stuff for imagination - see Necron codex.

And current Tau codex has plenty of options and units. Sure, many of them aren't GOOD options and in fact much of the wargear don't even work properly under current ruleset, but it's there...

Key thing you said most not GOOD options. But yeah i more of a quality over quantity guy... even though i play guard

But this fluff was few and far between, really not very good, at all..