Ruckdog wrote:So, just out of curiosity, how do you get an assault blob into assault range? Do you wait for your enemy to come to you (through deep striking or outflanking) or is it better to charge ahead using Move Move Move?

Personally, yeah, I use "go go go!" a LOT. That and I also outflank with al'rahem+astropath. Often I do them both in the same game:


(note that after this picture was taken, both blobs in the foreground moved another 6" due to "go go go!")

pchappel wrote:I'm leaning heavily toward the Melta option with power weapons for the SGT's... I find a lot of the folks locally (though not you) tend toward the Mech stuff... Killing the transport to get to the troops inside, or dealing with Drop Pods, etc...

Yeah, so right now I'm paying half points to give all my sergeants meltabombs instead of meltaguns. Given that I have a priest in the squad, they hit nearly as often against vehicles that moved 12", and they hit much more often against vehicles that moved 6", or less. The two synergize well, but I'm still thinking of throwing in meltaguns anyways.

Ailaros, just nitpicking, but want to clarify whether you included the SM Sergeants attacks with the squad?

Being the noob I am...and not feeling like looking in the codex, couldnt you technicly have 3 commisars w 2+ hits each in a 30 man blob squad? Because 3 sergants means theres 3 squads, And if im not mistaken, each squad can have a commisar. It would just be a ton of pts.


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Or, am i wrong?

2+ hits?

You can have a commissar for each squad in the platoon, but that certainly doesn't mean that you should. It is 45 pts for 3 S3 pw attacks each

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:Being the noob I am...and not feeling like looking in the codex, couldnt you technicly have 3 commisars w 2+ hits each in a 30 man blob squad? Because 3 sergants means theres 3 squads, And if im not mistaken, each squad can have a commisar. It would just be a ton of pts.


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Or, am i wrong?

Yes, you could indeed have a 33 man blob squad made up of 27 guardsmen, 3 sergeants, and 3 commissars. Both the sergeants and commissars can have power weapons at 3 attacks a piece (4 on the charge). Nobody does it because each commissar is 35 points (45 with power weapon) for a 1 wound model. And one is sufficent to give ld 9 with stubborn.

Edit: Do'h! Ninja'd

OK, and being that in the codex it says and i quote
"The PLatoon Commander and/or Commissar may exchange his pistol and/or close-combat weapon for:
-Boltgun...............2pts
-Power weapon...10pts
-Plasma pistol.......10pts
-Power fist...........15pts"
(note i got off my lazy but and grabbed codex)
This is for the platoon command squad...doesnt this mean that the PLatoon Commander and Commisar could have both a power weapon and a power fist..giving them 6 hits each? (also note all the and/or's)

Again, read the rulebook. These questions are easily answered there.

But to be nice. Yes, you can give them a powerfist and a powersword, but that would in no way double their attacks. They would have to choose which weapon to use each round

Again, just because you can do it, it doesn't mean you should

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:OK, and being that in the codex it says and i quote
"The PLatoon Commander and/or Commissar may exchange his pistol and/or close-combat weapon for:
-Boltgun...............2pts
-Power weapon...10pts
-Plasma pistol.......10pts
-Power fist...........15pts"
(note i got off my lazy but and grabbed codex)
This is for the platoon command squad...doesnt this mean that the PLatoon Commander and Commisar could have both a power weapon and a power fist..giving them 6 hits each? (also note all the and/or's)

For the PCS, yes. You'd get 4 power fist attacks with your Platoon commander and commissar's power fists. But they can't join normal infantry squads per the combined squad rules and commissars in infantry squads can't take power fists.

Edit: Rats, foiled again.
Illumini, I do believe you're making me look bad

I know. But if they had power weapon AND power fist..wouldent they get 8 hits instead of 4? Because the way it is worded, it sounds as if you could wap for 2 items if you so chose...

If we are going to do numbers about charging assualt marines, then add in the first round of shooting as well to your numbers, i land an inch away, hit with 2 flamer templates, plus 8 bolt pistols. If your oppenent gets the charge he is going to shoot first then charge.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:I know. But if they had power weapon AND power fist..wouldent they get 8 hits instead of 4? Because the way it is worded, it sounds as if you could wap for 2 items if you so chose...

Pg 42, bottom right side. It addresses fighting with two special weapons. Also, the point of the power weapons being in the infantry squad is for the power weapons to have the weapons be "hidden" inside of all the guardsmen, allowing the guardsmen to die before the power weapon wielding commissar and sergeants. You don't arm a PCS with power weapons and run into combat because it dies too quickly and easily.

doubled wrote:If we are going to do numbers about charging assualt marines, then add in the first round of shooting as well to your numbers, i land an inch away, hit with 2 flamer templates, plus 8 bolt pistols. If your oppenent gets the charge he is going to shoot first then charge.

That's in absolutely perfect circumstances, which I doubt will ever happen.

Bolt pistols in cover won't do much, but bolt pistols in non-cover kills 4, but the guard still wins.

Plus, we're still talking about really good circumstances for the assault marine player, and they STILL bounce. If you put things in more balanced circumstances or put the circumstances in the guard's favor (say, outflanking with Al'Rahem and getting the charge in on the assault squad), then they wallop the assault marines cold.

I played a match today vs IG blob. I HATE them. (Only because I can't afford to field the number of models needed to do the same with my Vostroyans)

Why does Summary Execution take precedence over the Standard? They both offer a re-roll so I know plenty of people that take that to mean you pick which one you want.

Otherwise, what would happen if you had multiple commissars in a squad, and failed a morale test? Would each commissar summarily execute one guy and you'd get one re-roll total?

Check out the page on commissars, he doesn't execute if you want to re-roll. He executes when his squad fails a morale test.

As for your second question, seems like the commissars might cap a dude each - another reason to never have more than one in the blob

The level of rule confusion, and Imperial guard mutilation done by ImperialGuardPanzies...which in its self is insulting to guard, is worthy of heresy.

May this thread burn.

I thought what you see is what you get. And my friend will pull that rule..just because hes not man enough to let his space marines loose one guy.

Terminus wrote:Why does Summary Execution take precedence over the Standard?

Illumini wrote:Check out the page on commissars, he doesn't execute if you want to re-roll. He executes when his squad fails a morale test.

Right, the sergeant in the squad looks at the banner waving in the breeze trying to figure out to run or not, but before he gets the chance to decide, he's already been shot just for the fact that he showed any doubt.

I mean, they both say that the squad re-rolls the morale check, but as you can only reroll once, you only get one reroll. Regardless of if you may or may not pass a reroll on morale (however you choose to take it), this does not stop the commissar from summarily executing someone for having failed the test the first time.

Terminus wrote:Otherwise, what would happen if you had multiple commissars in a squad, and failed a morale test? Would each commissar summarily execute one guy and you'd get one re-roll total?

Illumini wrote:As for your second question, seems like the commissars might cap a dude each - another reason to never have more than one in the blob

Yeah, this isn't exactly obvious.

Personally, I'd play it where I summarily executed just one model, regardless of the number of commissars (because in my mind 1 execution = 1 reroll), but if someone put on their rules lawyer hat, I'd remove a model per commissar without giving them grief about it.

As illumini says, there really isn't any good reason to take more than one commissar in a squad anyways (unless there are a lot of vindicare assassins afoot), so this quandry is more often than not avoided by good list building.

If you throw straken into the middle of your army then the blobs just become awesome, on the charge thats 60+ s4 int 4 attacks or if you get charged then 60+ s3 int 3

How do you figure 60? there can only be 50 people in a blob squad, and conscrips only got to fifty. and im prety sure you cant combine them.And that still wouldnt work if you had a minimul amount of conscrips because a squad starts with twenty people. You would need 40ppl from a blob squad, and a conscrips squad.Im still 150% sure that this isnt possible. Or even thought of.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:I thought what you see is what you get. And my friend will pull that rule..just because hes not man enough to let his space marines loose one guy.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:How do you figure 60? there can only be 50 people in a blob squad, and conscrips only got to fifty. and im prety sure you cant combine them.And that still wouldnt work if you had a minimul amount of conscrips because a squad starts with twenty people. You would need 40ppl from a blob squad, and a conscrips squad.Im still 150% sure that this isnt possible. Or even thought of.

It's like the duracell bunny


You really need to buy a rulebook. You seem to lack even a basic understanding of the rules.

youbedead wrote:If you throw straken into the middle of your army then the blobs just become awesome, on the charge thats 60+ s4 int 4 attacks or if you get charged then 60+ s3 int 3

Yep, good stuff. With a typical 30-man mob, you're actually getting 70 attacks (Sgts and commissar). One caveat on receiving charges against marines and such, is that your numbers will likely be dramatically decreased by the time you swing back. But that's okay, since it's really the power swords that kill marines in such match-ups.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:How do you figure 60? there can only be 50 people in a blob squad, and conscrips only got to fifty. and im prety sure you cant combine them.And that still wouldnt work if you had a minimul amount of conscrips because a squad starts with twenty people. You would need 40ppl from a blob squad, and a conscrips squad.Im still 150% sure that this isnt possible. Or even thought of.

Rather than yelling at you, I'll explain.

When charging, each normal guardsman gets 2 attacks. So it only takes 30 charging guardsmen to get 60 attacks. The sergeants, if equipped right, and the commissar get 3 attacks base and 4 when charging, so if you factor in those attacks to you don't even need as many as 30 guardsmen.

Ailaros wrote:

Terminus wrote:Why does Summary Execution take precedence over the Standard?

Illumini wrote:Check out the page on commissars, he doesn't execute if you want to re-roll. He executes when his squad fails a morale test.

Right, the sergeant in the squad looks at the banner waving in the breeze trying to figure out to run or not, but before he gets the chance to decide, he's already been shot just for the fact that he showed any doubt.

Or, the sgt looks at the standard and rallies the men before the Commissar reacts, given that you IGNORE the first roll if the reroll is successful.
If you ignore it, they never failed, so why would the commissar shoot someone...................
Just like a twin-linked plasma gun that overheats. If the second roll is a one, it never got hot and you do not take a wound.


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Terminus wrote:Why does Summary Execution take precedence over the Standard? They both offer a re-roll so I know plenty of people that take that to mean you pick which one you want.

Even more, both require you to reroll. And yeah, I'm in the 'pick which one you want to use' camp.

check the rules again:

summary execution: "If the commissar's unit fails a Morale test the commissar will summarily execute..."

regimental standard: "...in addition, any friendly units within 12" reroll failed morale and pinning checks."

So, there are two possible things that could happen when a squad takes casualties.

1.) the squad in question rolls, say, a 5. They're fine.

2.) the squad rolls, say an 11. Your unit failed a morale test. This means the commissar shoots. Now, after this, you can choose to reroll this already-failed test with the standard, but it's moot as the commissar already rerolled it, and you can't reroll it again.

Summery execution doesn't win, but you failed the roll, so someone's still got to get shot in the face, occasionally you want to fail that leadership, like if you are fighting terminators so you can assault back in.

I'm slowly warming up to guard blobs. While I don't "go assault" with my blobs I outfit them as such. Usually 3 squads, 3 power swords and a commisar. Basically acting as a gunline / meat shield I dont understand the whole assaulting with them thing. If you could replace basic guardsmen rifles with pistols and stick a priest in the back of the squad, then maybe, I just don't see the assault being worth the 60-90 lasgun shots with a first rank order fire the previous turn.

It makes a difference if you have a source of furious charge, or you need to lock up a target for next turn. It really depends on the target. For example, I rather assault a tactical squad and take the fight to power swords and bayonets, rather than trade shots with rapid-firing boltguns.

Also, a huge difference is that in close combat, you almost always get an armor save, while against shooting you almost never do. Furthermore, most people get two shots in the shooting, but only one attack when they're caught flat-footed in assault. As such, close combat makes your squad three times more durable. Plus, stubborn is only helpful in close combat.

Sitting still at point blank range so that you can shoot some lasguns and then get bladestormed or berserker charged or waaaughed, or whatever is a bad idea. Stopping your opponent from shooting, reducing their attacks, and stopping some of their special rules (like furious charge), all while giving you a slough of power weapon attacks and putting your troops into a position where they're the most durable sounds like a good idea.

Just for fun, I did some rough calculations of the two possibilities when facing a unit of 10 Khorne Berserkers with a PW champ in two melee phases. I'm disregarding the pistols of the Sgts and Commissar, as well as special weapons, since you get to fire them in either case.

OPTION ONE - Shoot the bastards!
24 FRFSRF lasguns = 72 shots, 4 kills

Berserkers shoot 6 bolt pistols, kill 2 or 3
Charge with 20 S5 regular attacks, kill about 7
Champ drops another 2 or 3, so let's say 12 dead total in melee.

Guard grunts then respond with 15 S3 attacks, killing about one. Sgts and Commissar swing with 12 S3 power weapon attacks, claiming another 2.

So the shooting option, assuming the Chaos player doesn't attack the blob with anything other than the Berks, results in trading 16 guardsmen for 6 berserkers. An excellent trade, even before you factor in any kills from the special weapons.

OPTION TWO - Bayonet their entrails!
Guard assault on their turn.
Berserkers attack first with 27 regular attacks and 4 PW attacks, killing about 10.
Guard with 34 regular S3 attacks and 16 S3 PW attacks, killing 6.

Chaos turn, Berserkers swing with 9 regular attacks and 4 PW attacks, killing another 4 guardsmen.
Guard respond with 13 regular attacks and 12 PW attacks, killing all but one or two. Then factor in the special weapons, and bye bye Berserkers.

------------------------------------------------------------------

So as you can see, even against an elite melee unit, assaulting can serve you more than shooting. Both situations actually end with the Berserkers losing, but assaulting takes the opponent's choice out of the equation (so he can't whittle the squad down a bit with other elements, or re-deploy the berserkers elsewhere), kills the Berserkers faster, and actually loses fewer guys.

Now if you add Furious Charge to the mix, you have solid odds of wiping out the Berks in one round. Or better yet, you'll only leave one or two alive, and can finish them off on their turn, avoiding another round of enemy shooting.

Counter Charge also gives you the best of both worlds, allowing you to shoot and get the extra attacks.

Those are really persuasive numbers, Terminus.

After running the same scenarios against other unit types whose numbers aren't so skewed by the huge number of attacks that berzerkers get, I'm even more convinced. Against tac marines and assault marines, the guard get similar results, and the only difference is that the guard lose fewer models in assault--which is always a good thing.

It's surprising to see that the extra attacks of extra guardsmen don't really make that much of a difference--even doubling them by charging only makes a difference of about 1 enemy casualty--but that those extra power weapon attacks make a big difference. A couple of extra casualties in those 10-man power-armor units makes a big difference.

I don't know if it would work the same against large units of T3 models with crappy saves, though. There it feels like the shooting would net more casualties overall.

yeah. it's pretty sickening how space marines cant beat guard in a fire fight or in a fist fight. you pretty much have to flame them if they're in giant blobs. Guard are going be good for a llllooooonnnngggg time.
AF


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I disagree Ailaros. The guardsmen can withstand the charge.


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this is from another thread

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Fett
the marines will win the 1st round of assault but the guardsmen are leadership 9 stubborn and reroll their leadership when within 12 of a banner. the guard aren't going to run.

So to continue your example..... I'm going to round decimals to the nearest whole number. You can try rounding down if you want but I think the result will be more or less the same.

1st round:
Marines: 21 attacks 14 hits 10 wounds 7 casualties
Guard: 14 attacks 7 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (7) Guard (14) Marines win. Guard hold.

2nd round:
Marines: 9 attacks 6 hits 4 wounds 3 casualties
Guard: 11 attacks 6 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (4) Guard (11) Combat tied.

3rd round:
Marines: 6 attacks 4 hit 3 wounds 2 casualties
Guard: 9 attacks 5 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (1) Guard (9) Marines lose.

4th round:
Marines: 3 attacks 2 hit 1 wound 1 casualty
Guard: 8 attacks 4 hits 1 wound 0 casualties
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines are all dead.

AF

The save is really the important part here. Against SM, it's really the power weapons that do most of the killing, so once that benefit is mitigated, all that matters is volume of attacks.

So alright, let's do it vs. 30 hormagaunts with adrenals. As always, standard caveat about mathhammer apply.

OPTION 1
72 shots, 15 casualties (let's assume they don't run away).

Remaining 15 hormies assault with 45 S4 attacks, killing 10 guardsmen. Guardsmen respond, killing 6 or 7. Combat should end on your turn with the Guardsmen victorious after losing maybe a dozen members.

OPTION 2
Guard charge. Hormagaunts swing 60 times, killing 10.
Guard respond by killing 11. If the Hormagaunts don't break, it will probably take at least another two combat rounds to clear them out. That in of itself isn't that bad since that would end the combat on their assault phase, but you'd lose at least twice as many dudes.

--------------------

So yes, against other scum of the universe, the flashlights are good enough. For everyone else, into the breach (unless it has T>4, in which case RUN AWAY FROM THE BREACH! ).

Lets mathhammer them against Yriel.

Large blast can hit more than 30 models when crunched together.

30 hits, 24 models dead. Hilarious.

If I am not mistaken a solid blob is going to be at least 200 points. I would love to see that get hit by a large template from the center. Just thinking about all of those guardsmen splattered all over the map makes me laugh.

Is there a better counter to them? What could actually do that much damage? A bunch of flamers? The best part is that the last few guardsmen will stick around if the Commissar can survive somehow, providing a shield against shooting. It really doesn't seem to get much better than Yriel when faced with swarms.

Hmm... I should probably work him into more lists, what a freaking beast.



No, not you...

Obviously, this doesn't mean that blobs don't have their uses, you just need to be really aware of template weaponry, doubly so when it ignores cover, and quadruply so when it is also a S6/Ap3 large blast... that hits inside of assaults. Fantastic that is, I will really need to try it out some time. Usually I'll just throw Yriel in with some Meq, to make use of the Ap3, but he seems to do a serious tap-dance on swarm units.

Yriel would die like the elf bitch he is.

The absolute maximum amount his large template (which is centered on him) could possibly hit is 22 models, if he is completely enveloped from all sides. What's far more likely is that all the enemy models will be within his front 180 arc (see attached file). He tagged 11 models, and the guards' bases are practically overlapping (which is less likely on an actual table due to uneven terrain and arms and whatnot).

So, Yriel charges (let's ignore how he managed to get there for now), activates The Eye, and kills 9 models. Guard retaliate with 30 attacks (18 from grunts, 12 from sgts and commissar), averaging 3.75 wounds (he has three).

plus, blob squads are more vulnerable when unsupported. The best way to kill Yuriel in this case would be to have the melta SWS sitting right behind the blob step forward and instant death him.

Ailaros wrote:check the rules again:

summary execution: "If the commissar's unit fails a Morale test the commissar will summarily execute..."

regimental standard: "...in addition, any friendly units within 12" reroll failed morale and pinning checks."

So, there are two possible things that could happen when a squad takes casualties.

1.) the squad in question rolls, say, a 5. They're fine.

2.) the squad rolls, say an 11. Your unit failed a morale test. This means the commissar shoots. Now, after this, you can choose to reroll this already-failed test with the standard, but it's moot as the commissar already rerolled it, and you can't reroll it again.

Or.................... Since there is nothing saying which order they are resolved in, you use the banner first, pass the reroll, and the failure NEVER happened.

The standard says that you may "reroll FAILED morale tests". This means that you need to fail the morale test in order to take a reroll from the standard.

However, when you fail a morale test, the commissar summarily executes. If you'd like, you can take the test, fail the test, do the summary execution, and then take the standard reroll (and waste the commissar's reroll), but it doesn't stop you from shooting a guy, and it doesn't give you an extra reroll. Therefore taking a standard for commissar-led squads is pointless.

don_mondo wrote:Since there is nothing saying which order they are resolved in, you use the banner first, pass the reroll, and the failure NEVER happened.

I read this a lot, but I am not sure I agree.
The failed roll no longer counts, but it occured or you would not re-roll.

Once you re-roll the previous roll is discounted, but it still happened.
The re-roll rules never say to ignore the failure--just that the next roll is the one that counts.
As an example, Gets Hot! actuall states the re-roll is the only one that matters and that the initial roll can be ignored.

Ailaros wrote:The standard says that you may "reroll FAILED morale tests". This means that you need to fail the morale test in order to take a reroll from the standard.

However, when you fail a morale test, the commissar summarily executes. If you'd like, you can take the test, fail the test, do the summary execution, and then take the standard reroll (and waste the commissar's reroll), but it doesn't stop you from shooting a guy, and it doesn't give you an extra reroll. Therefore taking a standard for commissar-led squads is pointless.

My argument to that is that the exact same language used in Summary Execution is used when describing how to take the Morale check to see if you fall back. So if you meet the conditions for Summary Execution (i.e it is an inevitible outcome the moment that you fail the first check), you just as legitimately meet the conditions for Falling Back.

Yes, you do meet the conditions for falling back.

However, the rule for summary execution then goes on to say that you immediately reroll the morale check, which uses that second result to determine if you actually fall back or not.

I suppose the only vague thing for me on this is if the commissar summarily executes after EVERY failed morale check. Namely, if the squad fails the first morale check, and the commissar shoots, and then you reroll and fail again, does he shoot again? I've been assuming not, as, as mentioned, the reroll rule implies that you count the reroll as if it were the initial results of your first roll, but I could see an argument for a particularly trigger happy commissar.

Ailaros wrote:The standard says that you may "reroll FAILED morale tests". This means that you need to fail the morale test in order to take a reroll from the standard.

However, when you fail a morale test, the commissar summarily executes. If you'd like, you can take the test, fail the test, do the summary execution, and then take the standard reroll (and waste the commissar's reroll), but it doesn't stop you from shooting a guy, and it doesn't give you an extra reroll. Therefore taking a standard for commissar-led squads is pointless.

And once you pass it, there was NEVER a failed test. Or do you insist that twin-linked plasma guns have to roll an armor save when they roll a one on the first try, but not on the second. It's the same principle. If the reroll succeeds, the first rioll never happened. And if it never happened, why is the Commissar going to shoot someone for something that never happened.

But we're going to just keep going around and around, just like last time this came up.
Bottom line. I think you can choose the order in which they are applied, which changes what happens.
You disagree and think that the Commissar must be applied first, which means someone always gets shot.

I agree with the don on this one. RAW is vague, RAI seems to favor giving you the choice (or perhaps it just makes more sense in my mind), and the INAT FAQ (for what it's worth), has ruled that the banner goes first.


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Ugh... no heavy weapons, crappy melta SWS teams instead of veterans or even a platoon command, small combined squads loaded with 100+ points of characters and topped off with grenade launchers of all things... wow, it's like everything you do with your guard is designed expressly to annoy me.

don_mondo wrote: Or do you insist that twin-linked plasma guns have to roll an armor save when they roll a one on the first try, but not on the second. It's the same principle. If the reroll succeeds, the first rioll never happened.

As I said, this is because the Gets Hot! rules actually state that is the case. The failed roll did happen, that is why you can reroll.

Terminus wrote:Yriel would die like the elf bitch he is.

Okay.

The absolute maximum amount his large template (which is centered on him) could possibly hit is 22 models, if he is completely enveloped from all sides.

Not quite...



If you don't feel like counting it is 30 models aside Yriel in the center. 30 MODELS, NOT 22.

What's far more likely is that all the enemy models will be within his front 180 arc (see attached file). He tagged 11 models, and the guards' bases are practically overlapping (which is less likely on an actual table due to uneven terrain and arms and whatnot).

I thought about putting together an elaborate diagram showing exactly how you are wrong. I don't need to.

If you choose not to play using no holding back (if you somehow manage to get the charge), or defenders react, that is your problem.

So, Yriel charges (let's ignore how he managed to get there for now), activates The Eye, and kills 9 models. Guard retaliate with 30 attacks (18 from grunts, 12 from sgts and commissar), averaging 3.75 wounds (he has three).

I will compromise and say he attacks a squad that completely defies the concepts of basic geometry, and only 20 models get hit by the blast. Yriel kills around 17 models, and your PWs all miraculously survive somehow. Then... all of your PW are within attack range, every single one. I fortune Yriel and it doesn't matter. None of what you are ignoring matters, not a drop of it. He will wipe the floor with that squad.

Let's say that somehow Yriel dies, the squad is left without a shooting barrier, and gets mowed down by shuriken catapults, as they are more than likely to be in range, and without many targets to hit. I am not particularly worried about blobs as an Eldar player. The one thing that eldar can do quite well, is deal with swarms.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Terminus wrote:Yriel would die like the elf bitch he is.

I will compromise and say he attacks a squad that completely defies the concepts of basic geometry, and only 20 models get hit by the blast. Yriel kills around 17 models, and your PWs all miraculously survive somehow. Then... all of your PW are within attack range, every single one. I fortune Yriel and it doesn't matter. None of what you are ignoring matters, not a drop of it. He will wipe the floor with that squad.

Let's say that somehow Yriel dies, the squad is left without a shooting barrier, and gets mowed down by shuriken catapults, as they are more than likely to be in range, and without many targets to hit. I am not particularly worried about blobs as an Eldar player. The one thing that eldar can do quite well, is deal with swarms.

because of the 6" pile in move, its pretty much impossbile to get all the guard like that on the first round of combat, even so, you can remove casualties from anywhere in the squad, if its a 30 man squad, you could kill 26 before he loses a power weapon (in theory) if its a 40 man, you could kill 35, ect. ect. Its very unlikely to route out the power weapons because of wound allocation rules

Fair enough, I don't disagree, but since you do remove models that are out of base to base combat, any PWs left outside of base contact are very likely to take a wound, and die as a result.

Anyway, it is certainly not impossible to get nearly every model in the squad under the template. Attacking with one model with a measly 1 inch base means that pulling in a ton of models into combat is certainly not out of the question. The only situation where I could imagine few models being stuck under the plate, is where the formation of the squad is in a necklace-style, single row layout. If that is what the blob is always doing, then Yriel could still just lock the squad down, and chew through it over a couple turns. Fortune is a tough cookie to break.

Most of the time, blobs won't be spread @ a 2" interval in a single line. I would expect Yriel to get a minimum of 20 models under the blast on average, especially considering the fact that I will be the one choosing where he gets into assault. If I hit the center of a 2-line, 1" spread formation, most everything is going to be forced under the template.

In order to use a blob to provide cover for vehicles, they need to be at a very mild spread. 1" simply won't provide cover saves to vehicles, nor should it.

Having Yriel around presents a serious threat to blob-squads.

I would put together something explaining all of this, but Vassal just doesn't cut it. The measuring tool is no less than garbage. There are ways to mitigate some of the damage the blast will bring, but that simply gives Yriel the opportunity to be protected from fire the next turn as well. You will have to pull the rest of your models in, and Yriel can wait to use the blast until then. Not complicated, but illustrating it is actually quite difficult. If we were in person, I could show you in about a half hour. There is no formation that will stop Yriel from wreaking havoc on a blob, really, there just isn't. Every single formation you could use, won't do enough, it will just prolong the inevitable.

You really don't want swarms to get stuck in combat with a fortuned Yriel.

I'll go into some detail quickly, working along the lines set by you (Grunds) and Terminus. A blob of 30 Guard w/ 3x PW Sarge, and a PW Commissar, lets ignore the very significant cost of that squad.

- Yriel assaults and only 10 models are pulled into combat, we will assume all 3 Sarge, and the Commissar are within that 10.
- Yriel hits with 5 attacks on a 3+ (the majority is always going to be WS3), wounds on a 2+, instakills. 5a, 3.3h, 2.7w. Nearly 3 guard dead, not amazing.
- 3 sarge hit with 6 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, ignores 3+ armor to face a 4++ rr. 6a, 2h, 1w.
- Commissar hits with 2 attacks on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, ". 2a, 1h, .5w.
- 6 guards hit with 6 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, deals with a 3+ rr. 6a, 2h, 1w.
- Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 4++ rr, takes .38 wounds. Yriel takes saves against 1 wound on a 3+ rr, takes .11 wounds.

Yriel just took less than half a wound, while delivering three. He won't do much damage with regular attacks, but the next turn spells complete doom for the rest of the squad. Their only hope is Yriel rolling a crap-ton of ones. Sure, they can lock him down for 2-3 turns, but I prefer to think of it as Yriel having a great time stuck inside the squad, wading around in the guts of the guardsmen he has torn into pieces.

I think you need to re-read how piling-in actually works.

It's one of my pet hates that players seem to think that an assault would actually 'wrap around' in the way you visualise it. It wouldn't happen and, in the actual rules, it cannot happen unless the Guard squad moved to surround Yriel in the preceding Movement Phase.

There is simply no way that a 6" move would allow those models to completely surround him, so the way Terminus has it visualised is far more accurate than the one above.

Oh, and due to the fact that he's a single model, there would be no need to alter the position of the Guard models in any subsequent assault phases, as any deaths would simply be removed from the 'unengaged' pool of models; any engaged ones are fine exactly where they are. This would mean that the very best you can do is either kill 3 Guard a turn for...the rest of the game, or waste your Eye klling 4-5 more.

Oh, and to answer your question regarding price: 30-man combined PIS w/ 3 x Sergeant PWs and a Commisar PW = 225, Yriel is 155. That's only a difference of 70, and I get to hold up one of your...'killiest?' units for practically the whole game, which is exactly what I want my squad to do.

L. Wrex

EDIT: One final thing; the Guard aren't hitting Yriel on 5s, they're hitting on 4s. He's not WS7. Your maths might not be quite so shiny when you take that into consideration.

Right, Lycaeus is right. Once the guys that are within 6" of the assaulted model in question are in question, then you just need to move everything to within 2", after which you just move them towards. Unless you're starting the assault from like 1" away (which would be dumb, knowing this rule), then you're going to get a close combat that looks like a cone, rather than a circle.

don_mondo wrote:And once you pass it, there was NEVER a failed test.

But you only pass it AFTER YOU FAIL IT. Any time they fail, the commsssar shoots, regardless of if you later get a reroll or not.. Any time you don't fail, you don't get a reroll. I'm really surprised that this isn't more obvious, given how clear the rule is.

I mean, if you take this interpretation then, if you don't have a standard, you could say that because the squad passed the reroll after the summary execution, that you should be able to put the model back on the table, because there never was a failed test after all.

Wrexasaur wrote:Anyway, it is certainly not impossible to get nearly every model in the squad under the template.

It's certainly not impossible when using a computer application, and some healthy doses of make-believe and 4th edition 40K.

But then reality happens.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Oh, and due to the fact that he's a single model, there would be no need to alter the position of the Guard models in any subsequent assault phases, as any deaths would simply be removed from the 'unengaged' pool of models; any engaged ones are fine exactly where they are.

Ironically enough, even with my slightly sloppy arrangement of the models above, I think only one of them isn't actually within 2" of a model in base to base, so they would all get to attack.

Oh, and to answer your question regarding price: 30-man combined PIS w/ 3 x Sergeant PWs and a Commisar PW = 225, Yriel is 155. That's only a difference of 70, and I get to hold up one of your...'killiest?' units for practically the whole game, which is exactly what I want my squad to do.

No, you don't get to hold him up. Yriel is extremely ikely to be dead after the second combat phase, if not the first.

Even if you had to move into base to base contact, nobody ever said you had to use hexagonal close-packing (as illustrated by the last shiny diagram). You could easily only have four models in BTB contact without having room for any more. Continue using spacing like this (because hopefully you're not dumb), and you're going to decrease the number of models in range of the blast drastically.

Heck, if you want to see how it would work out, put some models on a table and roll some dice. It won't represent statistics at all, mind you, but you'll probably get a better feel for the flow of events.

Just did this little "simulation" (again, I make no assertion that this is a good example of statistics or an average case). Vs a 31 man blob, Yriel went down on the third round of combat, with seven guardsmen left. I didn't take specific time or much consideration trying to lessen the effects of the Eye. He got 22 models with the blast, killing 19. YMMV (obviously).

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I think you need to re-read how piling-in actually works.

I read it several times, and realized that the rule is actually stupid. My bad. Not that I actually plan on following it as it is. Bad rules are bad rules, and I'm only forced to use them during tournaments where they strictly enforce interpretations.

Ailaros wrote:Right, Lycaeus is right. Once the guys that are within 6" of the assaulted model in question are in question, then you just need to move everything to within 2", after which you just move them towards. Unless you're starting the assault from like 1" away (which would be dumb, knowing this rule), then you're going to get a close combat that looks like a cone, rather than a circle.

So lame it isn't even funny. The guys can just stand there, watching the rest of their squad fight.

Now, I don't feel that you and the others are entirely right, it really seems left open to a decent amount of interpretation. The general idea in assault is that you are forced to try to get everything into combat, FORCED TO TRY. You can say if you can't then you shouldn't try, but I strongly disagree. Failing comes after trying, not before.

Forced to try to get as many models into combat, does directly suggest that you use the most efficient method of doing so, regardless if you happen to fail. Interpretation is a pretty powerful thing when wielded correctly. They are forced, they don't get a choice, that is my interpretation. If you are blocking other models from trying to get into assault range, how is that not cheating exactly? Sure, you can CALL it fair, that's cool.

I am not entirely convinced that Yriel is as good a counter as before, but bad rules aside, he certainly still is worth a try or two at the least.

It's one of my pet hates that players seem to think that an assault would actually 'wrap around' in the way you visualise it. It wouldn't happen and, in the actual rules, it cannot happen unless the Guard squad moved to surround Yriel in the preceding Movement Phase.

If I hit the center of a squad with Yriel, you're really saying to me that the Guardsmen squad would not wrap around him. Really. I mean really, really... really?

That is totally new to me, and keep in mind that I have no intention with bogging this thread down with an unrelated subject. You're right, I am wrong. Whatever.

Seriously though, I don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are several situations where you do have to wrap around Yriel, and it is one of the main benefits to using one model against a blob. I can pull that squad like a curtain, and relying on a rule that allows for what I consider no less than sanctioned cheating, is totally lame.

There is simply no way that a 6" move would allow those models to completely surround him, so the way Terminus has it visualised is far more accurate than the one above.

Oh, and due to the fact that he's a single model, there would be no need to alter the position of the Guard models in any subsequent assault phases, as any deaths would simply be removed from the 'unengaged' pool of models; any engaged ones are fine exactly where they are. This would mean that the very best you can do is either kill 3 Guard a turn for...the rest of the game, or waste your Eye klling 4-5 more.

You say that with so much confidence. Anyway, the rule is open to a decent amount of interpretation. After one round of assault the rest of the squad can just sit there waiting around? Really? I highly doubt the commissar would be very happy about that.

Oh, and to answer your question regarding price: 30-man combined PIS w/ 3 x Sergeant PWs and a Commisar PW = 225, Yriel is 155. That's only a difference of 70, and I get to hold up one of your...'killiest?' units for practically the whole game, which is exactly what I want my squad to do.

I know the price, and didn't want an answer. It is generally frowned upon to quote prices, so I try to avoid it and speak in generalities. Generally, something costing 50% more is very significant. Generally speaking getting a car that costs 10k into an accident, hurts a lot less in terms of cash, than a car that cost 15k.

EDIT: One final thing; the Guard aren't hitting Yriel on 5s, they're hitting on 4s. He's not WS7. Your maths might not be quite so shiny when you take that into consideration.

I'll take it into consideration, and I apologize for making that mistake. This has been my only mathhammer I've dropped in the thread.

- Yriel assaults and only 10 models are pulled into combat, we will assume all 3 Sarge, and the Commissar are within that 10.
- Yriel hits with 5 attacks on a 3+ (the majority is always going to be WS3), wounds on a 2+, instakills. 5a, 3.3h, 2.7w. Nearly 3 guard dead, not amazing.
- 3 sarge hit with 6 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, ignores 3+ armor to face a 4++ rr. 6a, 2h, 1w.
- Commissar hits with 2 attacks on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, ". 2a, 1h, .5w.
- 6 guards hit with 6 attacks on a 4+, wound on a 4+, deals with a 3+ rr. 6a, 3h, 1.5w.
- Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 4++ rr, takes .38 wounds. Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 3+ rr, takes .16 wounds.

.49 wounds VS. 54 wounds.

My god, will you look at the difference. (sarcasm)
It is now fixed, and seriously, that is really minimal. Others can post their mathhammer in a clear fashion, and we can all pick it apart if it is wrong. This isn't wrong, I am just not interested in explaining why it doesn't matter if Yriel is tarpitting the tarpit... because he is tarpitting the tarpit, and doing so in a very manageable way. Add mindwar and I can take shots against the commissar, ending the entire point of that blob. Just saying.

Anyway, if Yriel does suck against a blob, which I am still unconvinced of, add more about it so this thread can be a source of knowledge.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I think you need to re-read how piling-in actually works.

I read it several times, and realized that the rule is actually stupid. My bad. Not that I actually plan on following it as it is. Bad rules are bad rules, and I'm only forced to use them during tournaments where they strictly enforce interpretations.

Yep, only tournaments. And when people want to play 5th edition 40K. But other than that, yeah, go nuts with your houserule version of close combat.

No problem man, it doesn't matter.

I mean, the rule is just so goddam clear. Surprising how clear it is really.

Just like when defenders react to being assaulted, these
models move up to 6" in an attempt to move into base
contact with an enemy or, if not possible, into a
position in which they are engaged and will be able to
fight. This follows the same rules as moving assaulting
models, except that is not slowed by difficult terrain
and does not trigger dangerous terrain tests. Also, a
pile-in move may not be used to contact enemy units
that are not currently involved in the assault.

When making pile-in moves, the player whose turn it
currently is moves first. If for some reason (mass
carnage, usually), his model’s pile-in moves are
insufficient to move into base contact with any enemy
that was involved in that fight, the player must still
move them as close as possible to such enemies. The
opponent will then execute his own models’ pile-in
moves, back into contact with the enemies they were
fighting. If both units’ pile-in moves combined (that’s
more than 12" – very unlikely!) would be insufficient to
bring the combatants back together, the assault comes
to an end and both sides may make consolidation
moves instead, as described below.

As close as possible, which suggests arraying your models in a fashion that actually puts everything as close as possible to being B2B with opposing model/s. Suggests, not directly states.

That little smidgen of doubt is what you are working with. Seriously.

Wrexasaur wrote:So lame it isn't even funny. The guys can just stand there, watching the rest of their squad fight.

Now, I don't feel that you and the others are entirely right, it really seems left open to a decent amount of interpretation. The general idea in assault is that you are forced to try to get everything into combat, FORCED TO TRY. You can say if you can't then you shouldn't try, but I strongly disagree. Failing comes after trying, not before.

What the hell are you talking about? Just stand there, watching them fight? You are forced to move into melee any unengaged models, but once they are engaged (i.e. in btb or within 2" of a squadmate that is) you don't have to move them any further. With the 2" assist rule, that entire 30-man squad can get attacks against Yriel. This is especially easy if you have any HWTs in the squad.

- Yriel assaults and only 10 models are pulled into combat, we will assume all 3 Sarge, and the Commissar are within that 10.
- Yriel hits with 5 attacks on a 3+ (the majority is always going to be WS3), wounds on a 2+, instakills. 5a, 3.3h, 2.7w. Nearly 3 guard dead, not amazing.
- 3 sarge hit with 6 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, ignores 3+ armor to face a 4++ rr. 6a, 2h, 1w.
- Commissar hits with 2 attacks on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, ". 2a, 1h, .5w.
- 6 guards hit with 6 attacks on a 4+, wound on a 4+, deals with a 3+ rr. 6a, 3h, 1.5w.
- Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 4++ rr, takes .38 wounds. Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 3+ rr, takes .16 wounds.

.49 wounds VS. 54 wounds.

My god, will you look at the difference. (sarcasm)

Your math is as warped as your understanding of the rules. The commissar and Sgts have 12 attacks between them, and would average 3 wounds on Yriel before saves. And where are you getting this "only 10 guys get pulled in" nonsense? You yourself just quoted the appropriate rules that force you to engage if at all possible. Are we assuming the squad is super spread out and you assaulted the very itty-bitty corner?

Terminus wrote:Your math is as warped as your understanding of the rules. The commissar and Sgts have 12 attacks between them, and would average 3 wounds on Yriel before saves.

Nice.

- Yriel assaults and only 10 models are pulled into combat, we will assume all 3 Sarge, and the Commissar are within that 10.
- Yriel hits with 5 attacks on a 3+ (the majority is always going to be WS3), wounds on a 2+, instakills. 5a, 3.3h, 2.7w. Nearly 3 guard dead, not amazing.
- 3 sarge hit with 9 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, ignores 3+ armor to face a 4++ rr. 9a, 4.5h, 2.25w.
- Commissar hits with 3 attacks on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, ". 3a, 1.5h, .75w.
- 6 guards hit with 6 attacks on a 4+, wound on a 4+, deals with a 3+ rr. 6a, 3h, 1.5w.
- Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 4++ rr, takes .75 wounds. Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 3+ rr, takes .16 wounds.

.49 wounds VS. 91 wounds.

I guess that bit is actually pretty significant, and the squad actually has a good chance to deliver one wound. Not bad, it just sucks that the wound isn't going to be a PF, allowing you a chance to insta-gib Yriel. THAT would be serious, 1 standard wound @ 90% per turn... isn't. Yriel still tarpits the tarpit, which is generally as good as taking it out of commission.

And where are you getting this "only 10 guys get pulled in" nonsense? You yourself just quoted the appropriate rules that force you to engage if at all possible. Are we assuming the squad is super spread out and you assaulted the very itty-bitty corner?

I assumed that you realized I was speaking from a point which gave your argument the advantage. The squad is spread in a way (probably double linked, 1.25-1.5" spread necklace) where they somehow only getting 10 into assault, leaving the majority out of the blast, which clearly appeared to be your premise, and continues to appear to be the premise of your argument.

I gave you the advantage, and I am not going to spend 2 hours putting a serious diagram together. Maybe I will over the next couple of weeks as soon as I find time. Formations are important, but we are talking about general formations, not micro-management. I agree that micro can be a massive factor, but it is next to impossible to account for. The fact that it can make or break makes that kind of suck. There are just too many specific situations that can be brought up, to be practical in an overarching discussion.

This is a discussion involving a great deal of abstraction on every side, most tactical discussions are, none of us can predict the future for everyone reading this thread.

...

Well, I do have some experience with tarot cards.

Right, one wound if we go with your 10-model limit, and apparently also grant him a free Fortune.

And hey, even going by that, all they have to do is deal two wounds, and 50/50 his own spear eats him at the end of the game.

That is usually what happens with Yriel either way, I assume I edited that into the response to your edit, and your post was posted before you saw my post...

About your post.

a free Fortune.

Anyway, I didn't say that, I have not presented any hard points numbers as far as I know. L. Wrex did that.

My suggestion was that for LESS points, I tarpit your tarpit, and have a good chance of blowing it into pieces, depending on how you like to see the rules.

Wrexasaur wrote:I assumed that you realized I was speaking from a point which gave your argument the advantage. The squad is spread in a way (probably double linked, 1.25-1.5" spread necklace) where they somehow only getting 10 into assault, leaving the majority out of the blast, which clearly appeared to be your premise, and continues to appear to be the premise of your argument.

I gave you the advantage, and I am not going to spend 2 hours putting a serious diagram together.

So basically, you utterly failed to comprehend what I was saying.

Look at the diagram I posted. All 30 guardsmen (well, maybe all but one of them) are within 2" of a model that's in base to base with Yriel. THE ENTIRE SQUAD WILL GET TO ATTACK. Conversely, the 5" template centered on Yriel will only tag about a dozen models.

They can be in assault AND outside of the blast, that's what you're not getting it seems.

You are assuming that the squad will be in that pattern then, which is fine, but it hardly covers most situations.

You gave us a picture showing how the squad looked once it was in combat, with absolutely no explanation as to how it got to look so much like an acorn. You have a very nice diagram, but it doesn't explain the point you are trying to make, it explains that you haven't taken the time to illustrate it sufficiently. If I misunderstood, it is because you laid out a vague scenario in which guard would obviously be super-awesome. SUPER DUPER AWESOME. They have weaknesses, I am trying to figure out exactly how you are dealing with them.

How do you hide a 30-man squad from assault and flamer templates? What is your trick? If you read through what I have written previously, I countered as many points as I could, and put together a pretty good argument against your premise. I was responded to with, "You're wrong", by you specifically Terminus. That is fine, I am not particularly concerned. You were not the one to adequately make me re-think my concept. If your guard can stay out of combat because you read the rules in a certain way, and fail to address the basic points I brought up, that is fine. Your formations determine how the assault will take place, I do not feel that Yriel is insignificant at all, and I would certainly be at least mildly concerned about ending up in combat with him.

My next suggestion, rabbit, hat, out-of.

A squad of 19 Ork Sluggas, and a PK/BP nob in a BW. Not the best option I am sure, but one that can pick the blob out as a pretty ripe target. More expensive, let's be entirely clear.

Assume they get the charge, because they probably will. For the sake of my argument, I will assume they charge @ full squad strength as well, not unlikely either.

- All hit at the same time, all models are in combat, a very safe assumption. Crazy formations aside, guard hit at the same time making it a good thing to be in combat either way. Orks hit hard.
- Sluggas hit with 76 attacks, on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 76a, 50h, 33w.
- Guard hit with 27 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 5+. 27a, 13.5h, 4.5w.
- Commissar/Sarge hit with 12 attacks, wounding on a... hmm, made another mistake, my bad. All hit on a 4+, so my numbers were slightly off in the last one as well... so I was significantly wrong on that specific point, and I apologize, add 2-5% to .91 and you have the right answer.

Never mind, it was a typo. I calculated on a 4+ to hit anyway.

- Commissar/Sarge hit with 12 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 5+. 12a, 6h, 2w.

- Orks take 4.5 saves @ 6+ after losing 2 models. More than 2/3 of an Ork plus 2 Orks die. 2.7 Orks are dead.
- Guard blob takes wounds on everything, plus 10% over the whole squad, spread over the guard of course. Guard take 30 saves @ 5+. 20 Guard die.
- Sarge take 3 wounds @ 5+, 2 die.

- PK Nob hits with 4 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 2+, instakilling. 4a, 2h, 1.7w. Nearly 22 guard in total die. Not amazing, but the edge appears to be taken off of the blob, and the Orks now have a pretty nice blob to sit in. Seems pretty comfortable in their guts, as long as you target them with the right units. Commonly seen units at that.

I think it's safe to say that, from a close combat perspective, guard blobs are really only vulnerable to other blobs (Orks, Hormoguants, Huge Kroot/hound units) and the rediculously death star units out there (10+ man Death Company, Seer Councils and such).

As a long time Tau players, I hate having to extract guard blobs off objectives, I usually take a dedicated anti-infantry Shas'el in my list specifically to counter 20-30 man blobs. I also take large Kroot units of 10 Kroot + 10 hounds.

One thing an Al'rahem squad should be wary of is it's rear when it comes in via outflanking. I've countered that blob twice now with an outflanking Kroot squad coming in behind Al'rahem and charging - 60 attacks on the charge creates 26 dead guardsmen.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:One thing an Al'rahem squad should be wary of is it's rear when it comes in via outflanking. I've countered that blob twice now with an outflanking Kroot squad coming in behind Al'rahem and charging - 60 attacks on the charge creates 26 dead guardsmen.

- Hounds hit with 30 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 3+. 30a, 15h, 10w.
- Guard take 10 wound on a 5+, 6.7 die. Nearly 7 guard down, we will assume this is the case.

- Kroot hit with 20 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 3+. 20a, 10h, 6.6w.
- Guard hit with 22 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 22a, 11h, 5.5w.
- Sarge/Commissar hit with 12 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 12a, 6h, 3w.

- Guard take 6.6w on a 5+, 4.4 die. Nearly 11.5 guard down, we'll call it 11 to balance out the average from previous wounds.
- Kroot take 8.5 wounds all told.

That looks pretty bad IMO. I am not even sure the Kroot can tarpit them. Keep in mind that the Kroot squad, even with the hounds, is very cheap.
It may be that you were using a much larger squad, but 10 kroot and 10 hound don't get 60 attacks on the charge, and they certainly don't average 26 wounds. It would be awesome if they did, don't get me wrong.

A little off there. Both kroot and hounds get three attacks on charge because kroot rifles are two close combat weapons. Weapon skill 4 hits WS3 on a 3+. Twenty guys of any sort will be throwing out 60 attacks, two thirds hit, two thirds wound, two thirds fail save (just like when Marine hit you, though obviously they don't take a beating like marines). 60 times 8/27 = 17 and some more. How many losses they take back depends on how many hounds are there. If no hounds the guard throw back something like 32 attacks divide by 4 equals 8. Kroot wipe the Guard out two assault phases later.

Assuming a just a command squad and two infantry squads with one commissar. A larger platoon would obviously kill more kroot.

My bad, I didn't check the weapons rules. Made a mistake on the WS, fixed now. Need sleep.

- Hounds hit with 30 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 30a, 20h, 13.2w.
- Guard take 13.2 wound on a 5+, 8.7 die. Nearly 9 guard down, we will assume this is the case.

- Kroot hit with 30 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 30a, 20h, 13.2w.
- Guard hit with 18 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 18a, 9h, 4.5w.
- Sarge/Commissar hit with 12 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 12a, 6h, 3w.

- Guard take 13.2w on a 5+, 8.7 die. Nearly 18 guard down.
- Kroot take 8 wounds all told.

Let's get 26 wounds though, I bet it will be cheaper than the blob. 12 hounds, 20 kroot. That is a really solid chunk of firepower to boot, but we don't need to factor it.

- Hounds hit with 36 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 36a, 24h, 18w.
- Guard take 18 wounds on a 5+, 12 die.

- Kroot hit with 60 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 60a, 40h, 26w.
- Guard hit with 15 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 15a, 7.5h, 3.75w.
- Sarge/Commissar hit with 12 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 12a, 6h, 3w.

- Guard take 26w on a 5+, 17 die. All told, around 29 guard die.
- Kroot take 6.75 wounds all told, nearly 7 Kroot die.

That isn't bad, but you're definitely going to have to take a few shots to make 26 wounds possible. That means you need to take two turns to make 26 wounds happen. Don't get me wrong, the price is right, Kroot are pretty cost effective. Since they can outflank, and assault if targets are pushed towards the edge of the board, I think 21 wounds for the cost of 20 Kroot and 12 Hounds is a pretty good option. Nix that, those guard are toast against a large Kroot squad. A smaller squad doesn't seem to have enough punch, but they are cheap enough to toss into combat either way. The commissar is going to be standing on his lonesome facing down the large Kroot squad, as he probably has a moderate chance of survival as the last man standing. Awesome, no better way for a commissar to die.

- 40 shots @ BS3, wounds on a 3+. 40a, 20h, 13.2w.
- Guards save on a 5+, 8.7 die. On 4+ from cover, 6.6 die.

Definitely assault them if you can, shooting is worthless in comparison.

the point is that Kroot and Orks and Hormoguants can do the same thing that your blob squad does in assault which is they don't care how many die because they'll just soak it up. 10 Kroot and 10 hounds on the charge will (assuming average rolls) destroy a 30 man blob squad. It takes about 3 assault phases, but they basically almost double their points back. lActually, Tau are one of the lists I would say that blob guard have a problem with...

Wrexasaur wrote:You are assuming that the squad will be in that pattern then, which is fine, but it hardly covers most situations. You gave us a picture showing how the squad looked once it was in combat, with absolutely no explanation as to how it got to look so much like an acorn.

You have a very nice diagram, but it doesn't explain the point you are trying to make, it explains that you haven't taken the time to illustrate it sufficiently. If I misunderstood, it is because you laid out a vague scenario in which guard would obviously be super-awesome. SUPER DUPER AWESOME. They have weaknesses, I am trying to figure out exactly how you are dealing with them.

It's not a stretch to assume that a bubblewrap squad would be in a loose formation where it covers as much ground as possible, while not spreading so far that they can't focus their fire or properly screen whatever it is they're babysitting.



Look again at that diagram. Now move every guardsman 6" away from Yriel in various directions (except the one he charged, of course, and see how much area they can cover. The point I was making was not that guard squads are super awesome (although granted they are pretty damn awesome), but rather that Yriel would get his ass handed to him if he tried to charge one by his lonesome (and assuming a T3 elf can safely cross the board by his lonesome is far more a stretch than "this guard squad is spread out a bit").

Of course they have weaknesses. They are guardsmen, and they die very easily. Where others turn to armor to keep safe, they rely on numbers to soak casualties. So if you introduce a sufficient volume of attacks to cancel out that numeric advantage, they suddenly start dying in droves all over again. So this means: A. templates, and B. other mobbed squads.

How do you hide a 30-man squad from assault and flamer templates? What is your trick?

You don't need to hide from assaults. As for flamer templates, there isn't much you can do about them; if they get in range, they are killing droves of guardsmen. Your only recourse is to either kill the flamers before they get there, or take it on the chin and kill them with the survivors.

If you read through what I have written previously, I countered as many points as I could, and put together a pretty good argument against your premise. I was responded to with, "You're wrong", by you specifically Terminus. If your guard can stay out of combat because you read the rules in a certain way, and fail to address the basic points I brought up, that is fine.

I'm not keeping my guard out of combat, I'm using the 2" assist rule to its fullest so I can get as many models in combat as possible against a small opponent. So your points are deficient, your argument is non-existent, and you are indeed wrong. You whined about how "lame" the rules are and then drew up a bit of mathhammer (that was both irrelevant AND incorrect).

And yes, mobs of Boyz are more than a match for Guardsmen.

Terminus wrote:It's not a stretch to assume that a bubblewrap squad would be in a loose formation where it covers as much ground as possible, while not spreading so far that they can't focus their fire or properly screen whatever it is they're babysitting.

So show me, I can't figure out how you got that result, it doesn't make sense. Take screen shots of that happening, or use real models and photos so I can get what point you are making. Either the squad has a few models within blast range, or it has a lot within blast range. Those two scenarios are determined by where I assault the squad with Yriel.

You need to explain point A. to point B. here.

Look again at that diagram.

Put together a better diagram explaining your point, instead of assuming you are right. I am saying that you are talking about a VERY specific formation to get those results. Frankly, I am not even sure it is possible to have a combat look like that. You can choose to make it look like that, but I certainly can't see why it would. You are saying is it because it is. Great.

I agree with the suggestion made by someone earlier in the thread, that the combat would look much like a cone in many situations. That acorn layout just doesn't seem possible.

In case anyone was confused by my diagram, I EXPLICITLY stated that it was in response to the premise that only 22 models can ever get caught under the blast, maximum. That was wrong, and I put together a diagram explaining why.

Terminus wrote:The absolute maximum amount his large template (which is centered on him) could possibly hit is 22 models, if he is completely enveloped from all sides.

Not quite...



If you don't feel like counting it is 30 models aside Yriel in the center. 30 MODELS, NOT 22.

This diagram explains that 30 models maximum can be caught under the template, and that was what it was in direct response to. This conversation has made a rather large turn into YMDC territory, in a way that I feel has now taken the thread reasonably OT. I apologize for being at least partly the cause of that.

Now move every guardsman 6" away from Yriel in various directions (except the one he charged, of course, and see how much area they can cover. The point I was making was not that guard squads are super awesome (although granted they are pretty damn awesome), but rather that Yriel would get his ass handed to him if he tried to charge one by his lonesome (and assuming a T3 elf can safely cross the board by his lonesome is far more a stretch than "this guard squad is spread out a bit").

I have no idea why that would be a problem either. Heck, I could probably tank shock that blob before dropping Yriel off into combat, and I don't even need a WS just for him.

I disagree that Yriel would get owned, and I think it would be a pretty interesting match, as long as we both agree on what specific rules are intended for.

Of course they have weaknesses. They are guardsmen, and they die very easily. Where others turn to armor to keep safe, they rely on numbers to soak casualties. So if you introduce a sufficient volume of attacks to cancel out that numeric advantage, they suddenly start dying in droves all over again. So this means: A. templates, and B. other mobbed squads.

That is all I was pointing out, and I still think Yriel is worth more testing.

I'm not keeping my guard out of combat, I'm using the 2" assist rule to its fullest so I can get as many models in combat as possible against a small opponent. So your points are deficient, your argument is non-existent, and you are indeed wrong.

You are using the 2" assist rule while ignoring that you have to move as many of them as possible into B2B. There are few scenarios that play out as you suggest, and I think it is quite possible that you are simply cheating. Now, I am trying to explain to you that I feel you're wrong, because the rules seem to support what I am trying to say.

2 inches from a model in combat, I am sure that you could get a great deal of them into combat, but not without opening yourself up to a large blast. I may have overestimated Yriels ability to deliver that blast and wipe the squad in one turn, no problem, I have already conceded that point. What it sounds like though, is that you are using rules to your advantage, that aren't meant to be used to your advantage, they are meant to put you at a disadvantage. By what sounds like blocking several of your own models from getting into B2B contact, it appears like no more than cheating. I didn't realize that no holding back, meant that you could actually hold back a little bit. You are forced into putting as many models as close as possible, so the rest of the squad can also get into combat. This to me, does no less that give you every advantage where you shouldn't have any. Assaults are not meant to be friendly to those that are assaulted, if I got anything from the assault section, that was certainly it.

You whined about how "lame" the rules are and then drew up a bit of mathhammer (that was both irrelevant AND incorrect).

My mathhammer was messy yesterday, I should not have been working with numbers with so little sleep, I apologise. I actually noticed another mistake I made, and in the future I will take any steps I can to avoid those mistakes. Apologies.

I explained that the rule had open ends, and many rules in WH40k ARE badly written, there are no two ways about that. I still think that the bit you were talking about, which does not cover the majority of what I was talking about, is a very flimsy point to rest your argument on. You haven't even clarified that, besides saying "read da rules" a few times. I suggest that we take this discussion to YMDC where it belongs.

Here is the thread.

So..... i guess that Yriel is good at killing blob squads......

I would tend to think they'd cancel each other out. yriel will kill most of the guardsmen with his blast, but the few that survive will be commisars and officers no? then they'd cut him down with their power weapons? does yriel have an invuln save? dont have the codex
AF

yes Yriel has a 4++ save (force shield)

vs 3 guys with power weapons that's cutting it awfully close.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:vs 3 guys with power weapons that's cutting it awfully close.

It is going to be 3 sarge and a commissar if am not mistaken, in a blob of 27 guardsmen. That seems to be the general consensus on putting your blobs together, aside preference for slightly smaller or larger squads (plus or minus one infantry squad).

Yriel can gain fortune for a rr on any save.

How well he does depends a lot on how much of the blob can get hit by his blast, and how much can assault while avoiding the blast entirely. Let's say 15 get hit by the blast, and all can assault for some reason, I won't even think about how that would be possible for now. Yriel + fortune costs roughly 80-85% of the IG blobs cost, assuming all the squad has taken is 4 PW.

- Yriel attacks first with the blast, hitting 15 models, wounding and killing around 12.5 guard. 12 or less half of the time, 13-15 the other half.

- Comm/Sarges attack with 12 PWs. 12a, 6h, 3w.
- 15 guard attack. 15a, 7.5h, 3.75w.

- Yriel takes 3w against a 4++ rr. 3w, .75w.
- Yriel takes 3.75w against a 3+ rr. 3.75w, .4w

There is a very good chance in this situation for Yriel to take at least one wound, with a noticable chance to take a second. Basically a 115% chance to get wounded once.

The next Turn might look a lot like this.

- Yriel hits first with 4 attacks. 4a, 2.65h, 2.2w. Two dead guardsmen, with the chance to kill a third.

- Comm/Sarges attack with 12 PWs. 12a, 6h, 3w.
- 13 guard attack. 13a, 6.5h, 3.25w.

- Yriel takes 3w against a 4++ rr. 3w, .75w.
- Yriel takes 3.25w against a 3+ rr. 3.25w, .35w

There is a very good chance in this situation for Yriel to take at least one wound, with a noticeable chance to take a second. Basically a 110% chance to get wounded once.

He is nearly dead in this combat, if we do in fact assume that the squad only gets 15 models hit, but all models can assault. Not to say that killing upwards of 2/3 of the squad, while locking it down for 2-3 turns is bad. That is pretty substantial even by itself.

...

Since I can find many situations where that is unlikely to happen, I will add in what I feel is the more likely situation. I might have done this before, but doubling up isn't a terrible idea, as my math was kind of wonky the other day. Yriel hits 25 in the blast. The whole blob can assault.

- Yriel attacks first with the blast, hitting 25 models, wounding and killing around 20.75 guard. 21-25 more than half the time, 20 or less the other half.

- Comm/Sarges attack with 12 PWs. 12a, 6h, 3w.
- 6 guard attack. 6a, 3h, 1.5w.

- Yriel takes 3w against a 4++ rr. 3w, .75w.
- Yriel takes 1.5w against a 3+ rr. 1.5w, .16w

There is a good chance in this situation for Yriel to take at least one wound. Basically a 90% chance to get wounded once. Yriel has killed in the area of 2/3 of the squad in the first round of combat. The squad locks itself into combat for the next turn.

- Yriel hits first with 4 attacks. 4a, 2.65h, 2.2w. Two dead guardsmen, with the chance to kill a third.

- Comm/Sarges attack with 12 PWs. 12a, 6h, 3w.
- 4 guard attack. 4a, 2h, 1w.

- Yriel takes 3w against a 4++ rr. 3w, .75w.
- Yriel takes 1w against a 3+ rr. 1w, .10w

Yriels' been wound once, with a pretty good chance for a second wound. Basically a 175% chance to get wounded once, alternatively, 100% to wound once, 75% for the second wound. At this point, it does seem like much the tie, yet Yriel has filled his role of locking the blob down and the squad is easily cleaned up by something else at this point. Having some dire avengers around to back Yriel up in an emergency is also a good idea. They can take a turn from doing something else if Yriel drops to the blob in the 2nd-3rd round of combat. This is why I love the Defend/SS combo on DA, you can reduce the number of PW attacks on the squad, AND get an invuln. As long as the DA can wipe the rest of the squad, it is likely to be very near to the end of the game at this point.

I think that Yriel can generally manage to neutralize the blob during important parts of the game, and the DA are just a way to finish the squad off if it manages to remain a threat after Yriel is gone, which he may not be, dying only because of Doomed, which is not a massive threat overall. It does happen more than I would like though, and it the second easiest way to lose Yriel besides insta-death from PF/PK and such.

Wrexasaur wrote:Put together a better diagram explaining your point, instead of assuming you are right. I am saying that you are talking about a VERY specific formation to get those results. Frankly, I am not even sure it is possible to have a combat look like that. You can choose to make it look like that, but I certainly can't see why it would. You are saying is it because it is. Great.

I was at first going to just laugh this off as a sad attempt at a troll...

But then I read this...

Wrexasaur wrote:Basically a 115% chance
Basically a 110% chance

Now I'm obligated to help you, because my girlfriend works with the slowed, and she'd be mad if I just laughed at you. So here we go, with big pretty pictures:

Let's first review page 35 and 40 of the rulebook. The first picture relays the rules for moving in assault. The second tells us who can fight. Especially take note of the little illustration on the right that shows gretchin (dark grey ones) engaged with the marines while being nowhere near them. Now onwards to thrilling adventures in the 40K universe! *cue 60s Batman music*

The first is of an infantry platoon in a general formation for a blob. I just plopped models down with no consideration except to stay in coherency while not clumping up too much for templates. Yriel charges in! *bang, zap, wowzers*

Next we see the movement of every guardsman that can reach his base (image 4). Then I've activated 2" rings around the guardsmen to mark the area that is eligible for combat per page 40. Then because Vassal doesn't have an 8" ring, I put a bunch of 6" rulers to see which guardsmen can get in on that hot elf action. Looks like in my haste to get this over with, I've left two guys out of the fun (image 5). The sixth and final image shows the end result: I didn't have to worry about fitting the last two guys, so the end result is kind of messy, but at least it was faster and now Yriel's blast is hitting only 10.

For another example of this maneuver, see here:



Now someone please teach this man probability before he hurts himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wrexasaur wrote:Fair enough, I don't disagree, but since you do remove models that are out of base to base combat, any PWs left outside of base contact are very likely to take a wound, and die as a result.

And another thing, this is utter nonsense. You remove casualties in assault just like you do in shooting, you pull them from wherever the hell you want among the models you allocated to. So your opponent could easily allocate wounds to any of the regulars with no risk to the PWs at all, until you've literally killed practically all of the grunts.

So yes, my previous advice to "just read the rules" is still quite valid.

Wrex
yeah if he's fortuned he'll probably live through it.

Terminatus
If you take the 15 or so guys in the back and put them up in the front I feel this gives a more accurate representation of what yriel is likely to charge. this is because guard players will naturally want to have their models within rapid fire range of the enemy where their lasguns can have the most benefit. that's going to result in 5-10 more guys getting caught in the blast.

you said: You remove casualties in assault just like you do in shooting, you pull them from wherever the hell you want among the models you allocated to. So your opponent could easily allocate wounds to any of the regulars with no risk to the PWs at all, until you've literally killed practically all of the grunts.

yeah you're obviously right about that. the guys with the power weapons will be the last to die.

AF

Terminus wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Put together a better diagram explaining your point, instead of assuming you are right. I am saying that you are talking about a VERY specific formation to get those results. Frankly, I am not even sure it is possible to have a combat look like that. You can choose to make it look like that, but I certainly can't see why it would. You are saying is it because it is. Great.

I was at first going to just laugh this off as a sad attempt at a troll...

I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to insult me.

But then I read this...

Wrexasaur wrote:Basically a 115% chance
Basically a 110% chance

Now I'm obligated to help you, because my girlfriend works with the slowed, and she'd be mad if I just laughed at you. So here we go, with big pretty pictures:

Again, what is the purpose of these statements? You could have easily left them out, sticking to the actual conversation instead of attempting to reinforce your arguments with direct insults against me.

Let's first review page 35 and 40 of the rulebook. The first picture relays the rules for moving in assault. The second tells us who can fight. Especially take note of the little illustration on the right that shows gretchin (dark grey ones) engaged with the marines while being nowhere near them. Now onwards to thrilling adventures in the 40K universe! *cue 60s Batman music*

The first is of an infantry platoon in a general formation for a blob. I just plopped models down with no consideration except to stay in coherency while not clumping up too much for templates. Yriel charges in! *bang, zap, wowzers*

Note that I enjoy sarcasm, so I hardly hold this bit against you.

Next we see the movement of every guardsman that can reach his base (image 4). Then I've activated 2" rings around the guardsmen to mark the area that is eligible for combat per page 40. Then because Vassal doesn't have an 8" ring, I put a bunch of 6" rulers to see which guardsmen can get in on that hot elf action. Looks like in my haste to get this over with, I've left two guys out of the fun (image 5). The sixth and final image shows the end result: I didn't have to worry about fitting the last two guys, so the end result is kind of messy, but at least it was faster and now Yriel's blast is hitting only 10.

I appreciate your input on this point, even if I still disagree that the situation you set up represents the majority of what would be expected on the table. Anyway, it certainly seems like I have disrupted whatever plan that blob had in the first place, just by having Yriel on the field. Interesting.

Now someone please teach this man probability before he hurts himself.

You clearly enjoy demeaning people, and 1/4 can easily be illustrated as 25%. That same concept applies to all odds/probabilities.

Wrexasaur wrote:Fair enough, I don't disagree, but since you do remove models that are out of base to base combat, any PWs left outside of base contact are very likely to take a wound, and die as a result.

And another thing, this is utter nonsense. You remove casualties in assault just like you do in shooting, you pull them from wherever the hell you want among the models you allocated to. So your opponent could easily allocate wounds to any of the regulars with no risk to the PWs at all, until you've literally killed practically all of the grunts.

More insults. It is not utter nonsense, you just assume that at no point is it possible to force more wounds than the squad can handle. You ignore that possibility.

'Very likely' was probably a poor choice of words. I would rephrase that to say 'Not unlikely'.

So yes, my previous advice to "just read the rules" is still quite valid.

My question was answered clearly in the YMDC thread I set up for this, which you avoided to attack me personally in this thread.

Wrexasaur wrote:Again, what is the purpose of these statements? You could have easily left them out, sticking to the actual conversation instead of attempting to reinforce your arguments with direct insults against me.

Fair enough, I apologize, it's just that it's annoying to repeat myself several times and then create a bunch of diagrams for you to understand a very simple concept.

My question was answered clearly in the YMDC thread I set up for this, and which you avoided to attackcorrect me personally in this thread.

I didn't see the other thread, and I corrected you in this one because you were wrong in this one. But again, my apologies for "attacking" you, and I hope they were successful in teaching you the assault rules.

You clearly enjoy demeaning people, and 1/4 can easily be illustrated as 25%. That same concept applies to all odds/probabilities.

Statistical average does not equate probability of multiple dice rolls, and yes 0.25 average wounds does not equate a 25% chance to cause a wound. Often when using just a few rolls, it's close enough to be adequate as an estimate, but you're saying 5/4 means 125%. How can you succeed all the time and then some? Think about it.

It is not utter nonsense, you just assume that at no point is it possible to force more wounds than the squad can handle. You ignore that possibility.

That's because it IS nonsense.Let's say Yriel tags 15 guys with his blast and annihilates the whole lot. That leaves 16 models. Yriel has 4 attacks. Even if he wounds and kills with every single attack it will take him three full turns of hacking through grunts before he's rolling against the power weapons. That's if he doesn't die from the 84 attacks from the guardsmen he'll have received at that point (which averages about to about 4 wounds over three turns). And hey, I'd love to have a Farseer just hanging out six inches away from a rolling melee casting fortune on Yriel. One guard platoon tie up Yriel and a Farseer for 3+ turns? Score!

The idea that throwing HQs away to deal with a single guard mob is somehow a good plan is ludicrous to begin with. How about some Guided Warwalkers with scatter lasers, or some Fire Prisms, or even those Nightspinners that just came out? Then you not only kill a bunch of dudes, you also hinder the rest with a big splotch of dangerous terrain. If you just want to tie them up, a 100 Wraithlord with a pair of flamers would probably kill just as many without ever being at risk.

Jaon wrote:I was under the impression that a 10 man assault squad would kill a HEAP of them.

Then use the rest of your army to ensure that assault squad doesn't make it with ten marines.

Assault marines can't attack on turn one if you deploy right, after all.

Terminus wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Again, what is the purpose of these statements? You could have easily left them out, sticking to the actual conversation instead of attempting to reinforce your arguments with direct insults against me.

Fair enough, I apologize, it's just that it's annoying to repeat myself several times and then create a bunch of diagrams for you to understand a very simple concept.

I still don't consider it simple, and I have certainly never faced an opponent that was so intent on blocking his own models from getting into combat. What you are suggesting is that you can, and you are right, the rules do appear to support it. This was a rather specific situation, that I am not even sure all of it applies to any other assault, seeing as you won't encounter any other combat blasts, to the best of my knowledge. Overall, you were correct though, even if I still consider the potential for what you suggest to be questionable on some levels.

This has definitely been a learning experience, even if I got the substance of my answer from the YMDC thread.

My question was answered clearly in the YMDC thread I set up for this, and which you avoided to attackcorrect me personally in this thread.

I didn't see the other thread, and I corrected you in this one because you were wrong in this one. But again, my apologies for "attacking" you, and I hope they were successful in teaching you the assault rules.

My experience is not vast, and I have never suggested it to be so substantial that I know the rules up, down, and sideways. The problem is that I have never experienced someone working combat like you are laying out. It certainly allows you to block yourself from entering combat with a significant portion of your models. It is really a matter of one rule, overriding another, and IMO the spirit of assaults in general. I am certainly free to maintain that position.

You clearly enjoy demeaning people, and 1/4 can easily be illustrated as 25%. That same concept applies to all odds/probabilities.

Statistical average does not equate probability of multiple dice rolls, and yes 0.25 average wounds does not equate a 25% chance to cause a wound. Often when using just a few rolls, it's close enough to be adequate as an estimate, but you're saying 5/4 means 125%.

I'm not actually saying 125%, I am saying 99.999...% plus 25.000...1%. If I say 125%, it means that over the course of 4 turns, you're quite likely to inflict 5 wounds.

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58166.html

While 4/3rds of a cake may not exist, the potential for it will always exist. If you are talking about eating 4/3rds of one cake, you are actually talking about eating a whole cake plus a third of another cake. It could be considered confusing, but it has more to do with the context, than the actual use of the percentage notation.

How can you succeed all the time and then some? Think about it.

25% equals one wound over 4 turns. Thought about it.

It is not utter nonsense, you just assume that at no point is it possible to force more wounds than the squad can handle. You ignore that possibility.

That's because it IS nonsense.Let's say Yriel tags 15 guys with his blast and annihilates the whole lot. That leaves 16 models. Yriel has 4 attacks. Even if he wounds and kills with every single attack it will take him three full turns of hacking through grunts before he's rolling against the power weapons. That's if he doesn't die from the 84 attacks from the guardsmen he'll have received at that point (which averages about to about 4 wounds over three turns).

Saying that he will always hit 15 models, or 11 models, or 22 models doesn't stop him from having the potential to hit and wound more than 27. You have to make decisions in order for it to be impossible, so it isn't nonsense to simply suggest the possibility.

And hey, I'd love to have a Farseer just hanging out six inches away from a rolling melee casting fortune on Yriel. One guard platoon tie up Yriel and a Farseer for 3+ turns? Score!

This could be a problem, no doubt. It depends on my options though, the simple fact that I CAN use Yriel + fortune, and from my perspective in an effective way, certainly leaves the option on the table. Heck, the very mention of him made you incredibly defensive. That in and of itself is something to take note of.

The idea that throwing HQs away to deal with a single guard mob is somehow a good plan is ludicrous to begin with. How about some Guided Warwalkers with scatter lasers, or some Fire Prisms, or even those Nightspinners that just came out? Then you not only kill a bunch of dudes, you also hinder the rest with a big splotch of dangerous terrain. If you just want to tie them up, a 100 Wraithlord with a pair of flamers would probably kill just as many without ever being at risk.

If I bring Yriel, and he has several targets to choose from, I might just attack that blob because doing so has many indirect benefits. You may think that the Farseer is doing nothing but assisting Yriel, but that is not always going to be true. The farseer can multi-task, and if I feel like bringing Eldrad, he can juggle different roles all day long.

Strengths and weakness is what I try to focus on. On the table, it is quite possible for me to drop 5-10 wounds into the squad through various means, then to use Yriel when they are vulnerable, in order to completely neutralize them.

If I may poke my head in, grey knight holocaust is an ordnance template in melee too.

Are there more? S5 is cool, AP- is lame, but the awesome part seems to be the how it isn't stuck centered over the psyker. That is pretty cool though.

The concept is very cool and it would seem that both templates, plus any others that might exist, could do a great deal of damage against swarms.

the nightbringer has his gaze of death, and they can't physically hurt him

Aura of Decay? You can only use it in your own shooting phase but you can still do it when locked in combat. It's also only S2 Ap-, but the range is 6".

Wrexasaur wrote:My experience is not vast, and I have never suggested it to be so substantial that I know the rules up, down, and sideways. The problem is that I have never experienced someone working combat like you are laying out. It certainly allows you to block yourself from entering combat with a significant portion of your models. It is really a matter of one rule, overriding another, and IMO the spirit of assaults in general. I am certainly free to maintain that position.

Wow, just wow. You're still not getting it. I'm not blocking myself from getting into combat at all, all of my models are getting into melee (except in the latest example two didn't reach it because it was thrown together sloppily and most of the guys were at max coherency and very spread out). What I'm doing is using the assault rules to mitigate how many models you can hit with that template. Try any formation you've seen on the table, and if anything it will be easier to mitigate the wounds. My whole objection stemmed from your ridiculous example where Yriel somehow magically teleported right into the center of the squad, and opponent obliges you by packing in all the models as tight as possible (and apparently also playing with just the bases so there are no arms or weapons to interfere with flawless btb positioning.

I'm not actually saying 125%, I am saying 99.999...% plus 25.000...1%. If I say 125%, it means that over the course of 4 turns, you're quite likely to inflict 5 wounds.

25% equals one wound over 4 turns. Thought about it.

You're talking gibberish again.

Heck, the very mention of him made you incredibly defensive. That in and of itself is something to take note of.

You are mistaking incredulity for defensiveness. Your idea was stupid, shockingly so, and all I did was say as much. Anyway, have fun with your 4/3rds of a cake, I'm going to bow out now before I'm obliged to insult your intelligence again.

Actually we'd prefer it if you didn't insult people's intelliegnce at all, let alone further.

I appreciate it can be very frustrating when debating an issue such as this, but cracks to do with people being slowed and the like are over the line. Please refrain making comments like that in future.

Thanks, mod. Next time someone wants to drag a thread into the magma at the centre of the earth, I hope they do the right thing make a new one early on. I keep thinking there will be some more analysis of IG Blob Squads, what with 6 pages to the thread.

One thing I've noticed about my commieblob is that it's not really the best bubblewrap. As soon as it gets in combat, it often blocks a good chunk of my army from firing through it. Also, I want my bubblewrap to break so that I can shoot at what was assaulting it. Furthermore, when the blob 'piles in' during combat, it pulls men away from where I wanted bubblewrap. 10 man squads work better for this. Just an observation from a guy who loves bubblewrap, but who also wants the tarpit option on the table. I've yet to try the full-on power-blob, it seems like a major investment that could be tarpitted itself. By Yriel - just joking, DON'T GO THERE!

If you want your bubble to break, you just allocate a wound to the Commissar and off they go.

Wrexasaur wrote:
Yriel just took less than half a wound, while delivering three. He won't do much damage with regular attacks, but the next turn spells complete doom for the rest of the squad. Their only hope is Yriel rolling a crap-ton of ones. Sure, they can lock him down for 2-3 turns, but I prefer to think of it as Yriel having a great time stuck inside the squad, wading around in the guts of the guardsmen he has torn into pieces.

congrats you can kill 15 points of guardsmen with your "super" unit?

It's sometimes tough to do because guard have crazy shooting...but a venerable dreadnought assaulting a blob squad is a pretty effective way of holding up the super expensive squad indefinitely. If he does have a way to pop it, it's probably with a meltabomb. Use venerable to try to get vehicle explodes result.

The tricky part is getting a dread into hth with a blob squad...fortunately a smoked ven dread is tough as nails.

Also, when it's 50 guardsman, it's hard to get at the comissar. However, if you knock down the squad to about 30 models, an assault squad shooting and charging in will have enough attacks to allocate on the comissar in the 2nd turn of combat...that is the guard player's turn.
You don't want to overshoot before charging.

Also, sgt. telion can single out models. So can some psychic powers (Ezekiel's, chaos has one, space wolves, etc.) Kill the comissar, and the blob squad isn't stubborn.

Considering the expense of a blob squad, that's game over.

The"Power Blobs" I faced tended to have the Priest w/Eviscerator buried in there as well... Not a guarantee of course, but it should take down a DN, or at least be a threat to it... Me, I use Commissars with Power fists :-)

Terminus wrote:If you want your bubble to break, you just allocate a wound to the Commissar and off they go.

Pretty expensive bubble. I can't imagine planning for that, it would be like an emergency measure, no?

scuddman wrote:Also, sgt. telion can single out models. So can some psychic powers (Ezekiel's, chaos has one, space wolves, etc.) Kill the comissar, and the blob squad isn't stubborn.

Considering the expense of a blob squad, that's game over.

Eldar can use mind war as well.

I really don't think you will lose a game if you lose the squad, unless you have made the squad into a points sink. Nearly every single transport based Eldar unit is more than 200 points all told. Losing one tank+squad does not equal losing a game automatically. It may hurt your plans quite a bit, but at the very least you can definitely still pull off a tie at least in many situations. Hopefully the blob won't lose the commissar, then do nothing at all. They can still serve as pretty solid bubblewrap, and they still aren't much more expensive than bubblewrap you would find in another army. You will usually have to kill at least 2 sarges after killing the commissar to drop the squad to a risky Ld 7.

It won't end the game if you kill the commissar, heck it may not even help at all in the first place. Ld 8 is hardly all that bad, but assaults will be rough... so your opponent will probably start shooting the blob instead.

The advantage of the commissar is not the high leadership (although it helps) it is the fact that he confers stubborn and a re-roll. Suddenly, assualting 20-30 guardsmen isn't so daunting if you think you can break them in the first round.

I understand that and was pointing out the fact that it doesn't always matter. If you take out the commissar at range somehow, or your opponent decides that whatever may assault them the next turn will wreck their plans, losing the commissar is not an insta-fix.

Perhaps you kill the commissar, or your opponent takes a wound on him from shooting (and you need two solid wounds if I am not mistaken guess not), it may end up that Ld 8 wasn't fragile enough to work in the first place. I think the main reason where this could be an issue is if you need to contest a flag, not hold it, and your unit (who will not win OR lose combat, and has a good chance to tie) is better off jumping into the blob on the last turn or something.

Losing the commissar does not guarantee that whatever you had intended will in fact be the case. It is certainly possible that it could backfire.

Stubborn Ld9 rr's are not always a good thing, but Ld 8 can present some of the same problems. Ld 7 much less.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Stubborn Ld9 rr's are not always a good thing, but Ld 8 can present some of the same problems. Ld 7 much less.

I got everything you said right up until this point. Do you WANT the Blob squad to flee?

It depends on whether your opponent wants it to flee. Does it benefit you (the opposing army) in certain ways for that squad to have a commissar? Sure, I would guess that there are more than a few situations where it could be beneficial. Same goes for any Ld save above a 7. It could be a good thing that the squad doesn't flee and if the IG player WANTS the commissar dead, it is a safe bet that you don't want it dead.

I would consider popping a commissar to be a bit of a last ditch effort to avoid providing cover/immunity from shooting. All I am saying is that popping the commissar is not an end all fix to running from assault. Ork boys assaulting is probably a good example of a unit that would rather you kept the commissar around, but one standard wound can also be saved 1/3 of the time. Commissar saves a wound taken from the Ork sluggas, then takes a wound from a PK nob, dying as a result. If the first part of combat (Ini 3) was a tie, not saying that is likely vs. Orks, the one wound that killed the commissar only lowers your Ld to 7. That SHOULD be enough but dropping Ld 7 to 6 is a much safer bet. The sarge's can keep that squad in combat with or without a commissar. If all of the sarge are dead, guardsmen make pretty crappy leaders. You need to lose all sarge's and the commissar at the same time to make an even combat favor your ability to have a reliable 'off' button on the squad.

If there are PWs around that last bit isn't really an issue, your opponent just needs a solid wound.

I'm saying it isn't always as simple as getting rid of the commissar.

I just don't get why...

You will regularly lose combat with Ld7 tests, Ld8 is better and you have multiple Ld8's in the blob. Kroot and gretchin are fantastic examples of collapsible bubble-wrap, where IG blobs are less so.

I am not saying that it won't work a good deal of the time. I'm not sure where I wasn't clear about that. You do however need to face a PW wound to reliably get rid of the commissar. Those aren't terribly hard to find, but I assume that the commissar isn't always going to be deciding what assaults the squad.

I'm saying it isn't always as simple as getting rid of the commissar. 'Always' assumes every situation will provide you the opportunity to make use of that tactic.

The loss of a commissar doesn't gurantee anything...but it removes the blob squad's advantage of being a tarpit. Once the commissar is dead, the squad is no longer stubborn, so cc is modified by wounds again.

Generally a blob squad wins CC by attrittion and hidden power weapon wounds. An assault squad charging in will now lose some models but are pretty much guranteed to sweeping advance.

Leadership 8 no rerolls is also fairly weak to tank shock.

pchappel wrote:The"Power Blobs" I faced tended to have the Priest w/Eviscerator buried in there as well... Not a guarantee of course, but it should take down a DN, or at least be a threat to it... Me, I use Commissars with Power fists :-)

The Commissars in the Infantry Squads (and therefore be buried in blobs) can't take Power Fists, only the ones in the PCS can (or Lord Commissars). There aren't really enough wounds in a PCS to protect a PF, and a Lord Commissar can be singled out by being an IC. I'm now trying the idea of an Eviscerator, plus I have one squad with Krak and Melta in case of enemy armor.

i've seen Melta bombs on Sgts mentioned a couple of times. is it worth it to buy the Blob Krak grenades as well?
it would help with Sentinels and Dreadnoughts. and would be a pretty good chance of earning some points back. rolling 6 + d6,
20-30 times, is bound to blow something up.

ElCheezus wrote:

pchappel wrote:The"Power Blobs" I faced tended to have the Priest w/Eviscerator buried in there as well... Not a guarantee of course, but it should take down a DN, or at least be a threat to it... Me, I use Commissars with Power fists :-)

The Commissars in the Infantry Squads (and therefore be buried in blobs) can't take Power Fists, only the ones in the PCS can (or Lord Commissars). There aren't really enough wounds in a PCS to protect a PF, and a Lord Commissar can be singled out by being an IC. I'm now trying the idea of an Eviscerator, plus I have one squad with Krak and Melta in case of enemy armor.

I run the PCS with the LT, 4 special weapons and the Commisar w/ fist nearby to help out... Priests, while IC's seem like they help out alot, just haven't gotten anything like that dug up from the basement...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:i've seen Melta bombs on Sgts mentioned a couple of times. is it worth it to buy the Blob Krak grenades as well?
it would help with Sentinels and Dreadnoughts. and would be a pretty good chance of earning some points back. rolling 6 + d6,
20-30 times, is bound to blow something up.

As long as it isn't an Ironclad or Furioso DN... Oops, I need a 7 on the d6...

pchappel wrote: As long as it isn't an Ironclad or Furioso DN... Oops, I need a 7 on the d6...

or you then use the afore mentioned Melta bombs...

Any IG blob will likely have a CCS with a standard nearby, so they will get a re-roll regardless (even at Ld7 they will still have a 75% success rate). Killing the Commissar gets rid of Stubborn, which makes them easier to break in close combat. Period.


And running Commissars in command squads is hilariously silly.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:

Stubborn Ld9 rr's are not always a good thing, but Ld 8 can present some of the same problems. Ld 7 much less.

I got everything you said right up until this point. Do you WANT the Blob squad to flee?

Yes, sometimes you do want the blob to flee. Example, in a recent tourney my opponent attached Shrike to an assault squad and when they came in from the flank, they killed a huge number of the 30-man blob. I crunched the numbers (before I attacked back even) and decided that it was quite likely he would completely finish the remnats in the next round of hth, ir during MY turn, leaving his assault unit free to move and do it all over again. So I took a power weapon wound on the Commissar, failed my -15 Morale test and ran. Leaving his assault squad nicely packed (even after their consolidation) for the Executioner and the other blob squad to pick off the remnants. Heh, my opponent couldn't believe that I took the Commissar either, until he realized WHY I wanted them to run. And yes, Shrike and assault squad all died on my turn.

And re priests. They're ICs, so seldom get to use that big weapon in hth. They're main value lies in the reroll, and I'm not convinced it's worth it for a gunline blob. Assault blob, maybe.

don_mondo wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:

Stubborn Ld9 rr's are not always a good thing, but Ld 8 can present some of the same problems. Ld 7 much less.

I got everything you said right up until this point. Do you WANT the Blob squad to flee?

Yes, sometimes you do want the blob to flee. Example, in a recent tourney my opponent attached Shrike to an assault squad and when they came in from the flank, they killed a huge number of the 30-man blob. I crunched the numbers (before I attacked back even) and decided that it was quite likely he would completely finish the remnats in the next round of hth, ir during MY turn, leaving his assault unit free to move and do it all over again. So I took a power weapon wound on the Commissar, failed my -15 Morale test and ran. Leaving his assault squad nicely packed (even after their consolidation) for the Executioner and the other blob squad to pick off the remnants. Heh, my opponent couldn't believe that I took the Commissar either, until he realized WHY I wanted them to run. And yes, Shrike and assault squad all died on my turn.

And re priests. They're ICs, so seldom get to use that big weapon in hth. They're main value lies in the reroll, and I'm not convinced it's worth it for a gunline blob. Assault blob, maybe.

Your lucky you didnt get swept.

this is... the thread that never dies....

Jaon wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:

Stubborn Ld9 rr's are not always a good thing, but Ld 8 can present some of the same problems. Ld 7 much less.

I got everything you said right up until this point. Do you WANT the Blob squad to flee?

Yes, sometimes you do want the blob to flee. Example, in a recent tourney my opponent attached Shrike to an assault squad and when they came in from the flank, they killed a huge number of the 30-man blob. I crunched the numbers (before I attacked back even) and decided that it was quite likely he would completely finish the remnats in the next round of hth, ir during MY turn, leaving his assault unit free to move and do it all over again. So I took a power weapon wound on the Commissar, failed my -15 Morale test and ran. Leaving his assault squad nicely packed (even after their consolidation) for the Executioner and the other blob squad to pick off the remnants. Heh, my opponent couldn't believe that I took the Commissar either, until he realized WHY I wanted them to run. And yes, Shrike and assault squad all died on my turn.

And re priests. They're ICs, so seldom get to use that big weapon in hth. They're main value lies in the reroll, and I'm not convinced it's worth it for a gunline blob. Assault blob, maybe.

Your lucky you didnt get swept.

I did get swept. Didn't matter, the squad was going to die regardless, it's just that I was able to control WHEN it died, giving me the opportunity to destroy his uber-assault unit before it could kill anything else. Even if I hadn't been swept, I was too close to the table edge to survive.