What do you think is better, Imperial Guard or Space Marines ?

If the gaurd are death korpe then them, other wise marines.

guard codex is more powerful.

Guard! More man-power and tanks than the marines.

The guard wins wars with the help of the marines, not the other way around

Me: We have untold billions of guardsmen, tanks and Artillery!

Space Marine player: Us space marines are worth 1,000 guardsman!

Me: *aims 1,000,000,000,000 lasguns at him*

Space Marine player: Son of a Bi-*dies*


Yup. We own.

Hm, let's see.

Nine foot tall, power armored, genetically and cybernetically enhanced killing machine whose basic infantry weapon is a fully automatic armor piercing rocket propelled grenade launcher versus a cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting Guardsman?

You tell me.

SaintHazard wrote:Hm, let's see.

Nine foot tall, power armored, genetically and cybernetically enhanced killing machine whose basic infantry weapon is a fully automatic armor piercing rocket propelled grenade launcher versus a cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting Guardsman?

You tell me.

COWARDLY!!!!

You try facing the perils of the warp, daemons, Orks, Eldar, Nyds, Necron, Tau, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, and Emperor knows what else, in said cardboard, with out the brain washing they do to Space Marines.

SaintHazard wrote:Hm, let's see.

Nine foot tall, power armored, genetically and cybernetically enhanced killing machine whose basic infantry weapon is a fully automatic armor piercing rocket propelled grenade launcher versus a cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting Guardsman?

You tell me.

Yeah, but if you had billions upon billions of those cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting guardsmen, I'm sure they'd they prove to be more useful.

Cambak wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Hm, let's see.

Nine foot tall, power armored, genetically and cybernetically enhanced killing machine whose basic infantry weapon is a fully automatic armor piercing rocket propelled grenade launcher versus a cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting Guardsman?

You tell me.

COWARDLY!!!!

You try facing the perils of the warp, daemons, Orks, Eldar, Nyds, Necron, Tau, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, and Emperor knows what else, in said cardboard, with out the brain washing they do to Space Marines.

You fail to mention that when they face all that, 70% of the time they turn and run!

But if the space marine has a power fist, than a lightly armoured or even a leman russ is screwed. But Guard has a buttload of aerial fighters and the only thing that might be able to take out a squadron of fighters is the whirlwind, so its almost balanced out but the Guard might have the advantage

ironhand45 wrote:But if the space marine has a power fist, than a lightly armoured or even a leman russ is screwed. But Guard has a buttload of aerial fighters and the only thing that might be able to take out a squadron of fighters is the whirlwind, so its almost balanced out but the Guard might have the advantage

Power fist, say hello to 50 conscripts, 5 to 20 las cannons, and/or up to 100 to 300(if in rapid fire) lasgun shots! You will fail your armor save eventually.

Cambak wrote:

ironhand45 wrote:But if the space marine has a power fist, than a lightly armoured or even a leman russ is screwed. But Guard has a buttload of aerial fighters and the only thing that might be able to take out a squadron of fighters is the whirlwind, so its almost balanced out but the Guard might have the advantage

Power fist, say hello to 50 conscripts, 5 to 20 las cannons, and/or up to 100 to 300(if in rapid fire) lasgun shots! You will fail your armor save eventually.

50 conscripts, say hello to my Whirlwind's large blast template.

... where did the conscripts go?!

Cambak wrote:

ironhand45 wrote:But if the space marine has a power fist, than a lightly armoured or even a leman russ is screwed. But Guard has a buttload of aerial fighters and the only thing that might be able to take out a squadron of fighters is the whirlwind, so its almost balanced out but the Guard might have the advantage

Power fist, say hello to 50 conscripts, 5 to 20 las cannons, and/or up to 100 to 300(if in rapid fire) lasgun shots! You will fail your armor save eventually.

Eventually? Probably after about 10 hits. Str 3 still wounds on a 5+, which is a 1 in 3 chance. Conscripts are awesome.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Cambak wrote:

ironhand45 wrote:But if the space marine has a power fist, than a lightly armoured or even a leman russ is screwed. But Guard has a buttload of aerial fighters and the only thing that might be able to take out a squadron of fighters is the whirlwind, so its almost balanced out but the Guard might have the advantage

Power fist, say hello to 50 conscripts, 5 to 20 las cannons, and/or up to 100 to 300(if in rapid fire) lasgun shots! You will fail your armor save eventually.

Eventually? Probably after about 10 hits. Str 3 still wounds on a 5+, which is a 1 in 3 chance. Conscripts are awesome.

Well, not quite "after 10 hits" but 300 shots would still obliterate a squad of MEqs, however only in the best case scenario.

You may not be familiar with the statistic survivability of a squad of MEqs.

Let me mathhammer it out for you:

Best case scenario, 300 shots. BS2 = 1/3 to hit, S3 vs T4 = 5+ = 1/3 to wound. 3+ armor = 1/3 to fail.

So.

1/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 300 = 11.11 wounds. You'd down a single Tac squad with that kind of firepower. But think about that for a second... 300 shots to down a Tac squad.

That's a LOT of flashlights required.

Let's go with your 100 shots number.

1/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 100 = 3 wounds.

So if all didn't go exactly to plan, you'd kill 3 marines.

Not quite so nice, eh? Enough for a morale check, though. So I suppose you COULD make it work, IF the MEq squad fails leadership at what's usually Ld9 or 10.

SaintHazard wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Cambak wrote:

ironhand45 wrote:But if the space marine has a power fist, than a lightly armoured or even a leman russ is screwed. But Guard has a buttload of aerial fighters and the only thing that might be able to take out a squadron of fighters is the whirlwind, so its almost balanced out but the Guard might have the advantage

Power fist, say hello to 50 conscripts, 5 to 20 las cannons, and/or up to 100 to 300(if in rapid fire) lasgun shots! You will fail your armor save eventually.

Eventually? Probably after about 10 hits. Str 3 still wounds on a 5+, which is a 1 in 3 chance. Conscripts are awesome.

Well, not quite "after 10 hits" but 300 shots would still obliterate a squad of MEqs, however only in the best case scenario.

You may not be familiar with the statistic survivability of a squad of MEqs.

Let me mathhammer it out for you:

Best case scenario, 300 shots. BS2 = 1/3 to hit, S3 vs T4 = 5+ = 1/3 to wound. 3+ armor = 1/3 to fail.

So.

1/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 300 = 11.11 wounds. You'd down a single Tac squad with that kind of firepower. But think about that for a second... 300 shots to down a Tac squad.

That's a LOT of flashlights required.

Let's go with your 100 shots number.

1/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 100 = 3 wounds.

So if all didn't go exactly to plan, you'd kill 3 marines.

Not quite so nice, eh? Enough for a morale check, though. So I suppose you COULD make it work, IF the MEq squad fails leadership at what's usually Ld9 or 10.

cowardly, to compare your space marines to conscripts. Compair your predators to leman russ. Compare your whirlwind to our manticore. Soon you will see our power.

I have played both codexes. and I must say, Imperial guard win hands down. space marines might be 1000 times better than imperial guard, but fluff wise, there is 1 space marine per imperial world. to be fair, that is probably 1 million actual Guardsmen versus every space marine, and closer to 12 billion on cadia id hate to be THAT space marine

I just think Marines are overdone. I've been tired of them since about 1990 lol!

This turned into Guardsmen vs Space Marine's pretty quickly.

Do whichever seems cooler, Guard armies tend to cost alot though.

Pssst. Both suck the Space Wolves will kill both and call it a day.

Problem is, most people look at this from agame perspective and not a fiction perspective. If you "believe" fluff then just a Company of space marines can stop and entire uprising by themselves. I don't think I have ever read in a 40k book where a lasgun takes down a marine.

In Nightbringer it talks about how the UM 4th company walks up a hill at a mass of traitor guardsman and have less than a handful of marines killed. THose killed are taken down by krak missiles or earthshakers. Marines are supposed to be nearly invulnerable when compared to a guardsman according to fluff.

Marines hands down.

Okay, people, before this turns into the internet's most awkward pep-fest, let me ask. What do you mean by "better"?

SaintHazard wrote:

Cambak wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Hm, let's see.

Nine foot tall, power armored, genetically and cybernetically enhanced killing machine whose basic infantry weapon is a fully automatic armor piercing rocket propelled grenade launcher versus a cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting Guardsman?

You tell me.

COWARDLY!!!!

You try facing the perils of the warp, daemons, Orks, Eldar, Nyds, Necron, Tau, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, and Emperor knows what else, in said cardboard, with out the brain washing they do to Space Marines.

You fail to mention that when they face all that, 70% of the time they turn and run!

I am not lying when I say I played a full game against Nids, who assaulted all my squads in CC, Not a single squad failed a moral check.

I would like to see you not run up when a trygon just ate your Best Friend.

Space Marine: I feel no Fear! See me Charge a chaos lord?

Imperial guardsman 30 feet to Space marine's Left: I FEEL FEAR! See Me Charge from My Bunker! See Me, A Simple Man Armed with Little more than a Combat knife, Charge headfirst into the horde of Chaos Space marines!

Also did you know, The first person to fall to chaos was not a normal man. He was the Commander of a Space Marine Legion.

Actually, it's strongly implied that Horus was not the first to fall to Chaos, but several Primarchs as well as numerous Imperial citizens already had the seed of Chaos growing for years before the Emperor left Horus in charge.

Well, lets take a look. Space marines: weed out the weak, ex:high risk of implant failure, most die Or quit during the training, and only one in 1000 can even become space marines, not to mention the 10 year wait until power armor is compatiable, so you're facing nid and nurgle uglies in scout armor!. Imp. Guard: any old dude can be picked up by the guard and in a trench being rushed by orks. At a guard base:" ok you little snots, you will be droppped onto the planet helldeathgorekill in 5 minutes, youre armement will be the following :a candle, a helment ,and a a spoon you will be facing chaos marines 20 feet tall with power swords 55 feet tall and bolter guns that fire nuclear artillerly rounds! Good luck. Im gonna have to go wit the guard.

That's... a bit of an exaggeration, but okay.

Ailaros wrote:

Okay, people, before this turns into the internet's most awkward pep-fest, let me ask. What do you mean by "better"?

*Ding Ding* We have a winner folks!

It's definition of better.

Generally, better would suggest a single guardsman vs. a single space marine. Which means that in almost every way except ability to fit through small holes, the Space Marine is better.

Fluff wise, a single Space Marine is vastly superior. As is the case game-wise.

Frankly, to be perfectly honest, I think this thread is doomed. To compare a super-human to a human doesn't really work IMHO.

Dave.

My Space Marines are better than your Space Marines.

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5SNS40GujY&feature=channel
There is ONLY ONE Space Marine in this video.
He isn't even in terminator armor...

Generalstoner wrote:Problem is, most people look at this from agame perspective and not a fiction perspective. If you "believe" fluff then just a Company of space marines can stop and entire uprising by themselves. I don't think I have ever read in a 40k book where a lasgun takes down a marine.

In Nightbringer it talks about how the UM 4th company walks up a hill at a mass of traitor guardsman and have less than a handful of marines killed. THose killed are taken down by krak missiles or earthshakers. Marines are supposed to be nearly invulnerable when compared to a guardsman according to fluff.

Marines hands down.

Wrong. Heavy bolters killed plenty of marines on pavonis. Also, that wasn't imperial guard that was rebel PDF troops, which aren't even close to as good as guardsmen. They're probably closer to conscripts, actually.
Not only that, but pavonis made their own "knock-off" leman russes, and they still managed to easily kill marines. And those were the ultramarines! The best of the best of the best!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewGuyWhoDontKnowAnything wrote:Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5SNS40GujY&feature=channel
There is ONLY ONE Space Marine in this video.
He isn't even in terminator armor...

I saw four actually. He was kicking major ass too ^.^

Doesn't matter how out-classed a guardsman is compared to a space marine.

As Chenkov would say, "Send in the next wave!"

Eventually one of the mooks will get lucky or the marine will asphyxiate as the bacteria decomposing the hapless dead sucks all of the oxygen out of the air.

SaintHazard wrote:Hm, let's see.

Nine foot tall, power armored, genetically and cybernetically enhanced killing machine whose basic infantry weapon is a fully automatic armor piercing rocket propelled grenade launcher versus a cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting Guardsman?

You tell me.

Actually sigged.

On topic, I think space marines are clearly better one on one (and SM scouts can fit through holes).

Army versus Army... is a tough one. IG certainly have the advantage of numbers. But I don't know how many they could realistically field at one time in one place.

In any case I don't think SM force would willingly meet an IG army head on, if they were so heavily outnumbered. They would choose their battles carefully, launching surgical strikes at supply lines, and fuel dumps, ambushing convoys, and decapitating the enemies HQ.

This is what the fluff suggests Marines are trained to do. And IG usually fair poorly against rogue SM chapters in the fluff... in typical GW plotting, they hold out bravely until marines or the imperial fleet arrives.

Conscripts can't withstand a predator or heavy attack and then after their done, squads of men will kill any survivors.

In all honesty just choose the army you think looks cooler. I chose space marines because their fluff and the way they look.

SmackCakes wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Hm, let's see.

Nine foot tall, power armored, genetically and cybernetically enhanced killing machine whose basic infantry weapon is a fully automatic armor piercing rocket propelled grenade launcher versus a cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting Guardsman?

You tell me.

Actually sigged.

On topic, I think space marines are clearly better one on one (and SM scouts can fit through holes).

Army versus Army... is a tough one. IG certainly have the advantage of numbers. But I don't know how many they could realistically field at one time in one place.

In any case I don't think SM force would willingly meet an IG army head on, if they were so heavily outnumbered. They would choose their battles carefully, launching surgical strikes at supply lines, and fuel dumps, ambushing convoys, and decapitating the enemies HQ.

This is what the fluff suggests Marines are trained to do. And IG usually fair poorly against rogue SM chapters in the fluff... in typical GW plotting, they hold out bravely until marines or the imperial fleet arrives.

I'm honored.

Ah, the Imperial Guard. Armed with the most potent weapon of them all - plot.

All this is assuming the IG are facing just tac marines anyway. Let's not forget they also have vegetables piloting mobile weapons platforms, veterans wearing armor that protects better than a modern tank, assault troops that strap rockets to their back, and often the marines' preferred method of entering battle is to strap themselves into metal cans and basically shoot themselves at a planet's surface. I wouldn't want to be a guardsman facing down a marine just because they seem to be freaking nuts.

Imperial Guard are cool if you like building lots of vehicle kits like chimeras, valkyries, tanks and artillery. While our infantry is no slouch, they can be somewhat plain in a modeling sense, so our real power (both hobby- and game- related) rests in the tanks. There aren't too many special characters that are worth taking,and there aren't too many options to change your list in radical ways, so for the most part expansion involves getting more of the same: more platoons, more veterans, more chimerae, more valkyries, more hydras, more artillery.

Space Marines are a good option if you want to focus on the individual soldiers, as the range of power armored models has grown immensely and there is some really fantastic stuff in there. Space Marines also offer the advantage of having multiple books dedicated to them, so you have a lot of variety in rules to try before you settle down to painting. There are also many special characters, some of which can radically alter your list. Between the multiple books and various special characters, you have a lot of room for expansion in unexpected directions. You could easily do a Space Wolf calvary list, then switch it up and make a BA army of dreadnoughts.

Now, as with everything else, this is of course not 100%. The Death Korps of Krieg models from ForgeWorld in my subjective opinion are the nicest-looking 40K-related models of all time (although again you can't pay the same amount of attention to one Kriegsman as you can one Tactical Marine). Space Marines can also get their hands on some interesting kits (especially Blood Angels with their hordes of preds/dreads, and the still-to-come Stormravens).


TL;DR version

IG - tons of cool vehicle models, very good at long range shooting and pack tons of special weapons up close, very adept at manipulating reserves (lots of things can outflank very reliably, and can screw with your rolls), tend to be a less common army at the local level (although apparently tend make a big showing at convention tournaments). Essentially look and play as a "conventional" military force.

SM - tons of epic characters and infantry models, some cool vehicle models, have a lot of variety in playstyle but tend to excel in close combat, have tons of build options (all-terminator, all-bike, all-jumppack/drop pod, heavy armor, rhino rush etc. etc. and any mixture in between). Look and play personify the over-the-top craziness of 40K.


It's a real tough call, as they are both cool and eventually both are worth owning. When I got back into 40K with the release of 5th, I went with IG because I fell in love with the Valkyrie and DKoK models. I'm going to get back into power armor, but I'm waiting on the GK codex before making my decision.

Undeniably the Imperial Guard.

Humans fighting desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them is far more epic than superhumans fighting stoically against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them.

Before anyone inevitably whines about this post and cries of "marine-hate", yes, this is an opinion, duh. No, saying Marines aren't my favorite is not equal to Marine hate. Obnoxious posters....

I have trouble seeing how humans fighting desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them and losing is more epic than superhumans fighting stoically against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them and winning.

Also, you're a dirty Marine hater!!!

Melissia wrote:Undeniably the Space Marines

Humans dying desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them is far less epic than superhumans fighting stoically against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them.

I Love all Dakka members and anyone that wants to debate with my opinion

There you go, improved and edited it for you!

SaintHazard wrote:I have trouble seeing how humans fighting desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them and losing

If the Imperial Guard lost more than it won, then Imperium would cease to exist.

No matter their prowess, Space Marines simply do not have the numbers to effectively defend the Imperium. They can barely manage to defend a few key worlds, and even then only with the support of the Guard. The Guard, however, is omnipresent, the true defenders of humanity-- humanity itself.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:I have trouble seeing how humans fighting desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them and losing

If the Imperial Guard lost more than it won, then Imperium would cease to exist.

No, just if they lost all the time. They can afford to lose more than they win - if they lose, keep throwing cannon fodder at it until it becomes a win!

So you're saying they don't really lose, because they have enough resources that a minor setback can be turned into a win through attrition?

That's not defeat. To an Astartes that might be defeat, but that's because the Astartes are limited in number and therefor cannot handle the sort of attrition the Guard can.

A large portion of Space Marine successes rely on the blood of the Emperor's Hammer.

Melissia wrote:So you're saying they don't really lose, because they have enough resources that a minor setback can be turned into a win through attrition?

That's not defeat. To an Astartes that might be defeat, but that's because the Astartes are limited in number and therefor cannot handle the sort of attrition the Guard can.

No, that's what I'm saying.

They never lose, and yet they lose constantly.

You just need to define lose.

I think you're the one that needs to define lose, then, and stick with a single definition so that you don't end up with confusing statements like that.

Terminus wrote:A large portion of Space Marine successes relies on the blood of the Emperor's Hammer.

Indeed. Let's give examples even:


Macragge? Guard (in the form of PDF and navy which while technically aren't Guard fulfill the same purpose and frequently work closely together, and so I often combine the three) did a great deal of fighting, allowing papa smurf's little smurflings to focus on striking at the hive fleet itself.

Cadia? Home of one of the toughest Guard forces, defended primarily by them with assistance from Marines and Sisters.

Armageddon? Ditto.

Subsector Aurelia? Reliant on the Guard to hold the line and obtain regular victories, so the Blood Ravens can strike valuable targets.

Macharian Crusade? Most successful offensive since the Great Crusade, done by Guardsmen and led by a Guard officer.

Sabbat Worlds Crusade? Primarily fought by Guard, small contingent of Astartes (two companies) and Sisters assisting it.

Angevin Crusade? Almost entirely done by Guard forces, with minor Astartes and Sororitas presence.



In fact, I can't think of any major wars that didn't primarily involve Guard forces save for Ork invasion of Rynn's World. Which IIRC was largely a ignominious defeat and required Guard to assist in taking it back because the Crimson Fists were nearly wiped out. I'm not saying Marines can't fight. They hit hard and fast, but they can't take casualties very well. The Guard can, and does.

So what you're saying is that the Guard provide warm bodies for the enemies to hack away at while the Space Marines strike decisively and solve the problem.

And you are correct.

No, that only happens sometimes. These are just lists of major battles, and even then only a few of them (Macragge and Aurelia) are what you describe. The others ? The Marines pitched in a few times, but it is the Guard that did the primary and most important fighting. Similarly, the vast majority of battles have no Marines in them in the first place.

Guardsmen are the primary defensive and offensive force of the Imperium. Marines, except in a few major battles, do not have that big of an impact on the 41st millennium in comparison to the Guard-- the continued existence of the Imperium is ensured not by the Adeptus Astartes, but the Departmento Munitorum.

I still think Marines are better because "Marine" has fewer letters than "Guardsman."

And they have prettier colors.

Oh please, you can paint Guard armor whatever colors you want. I know someone who had a "Macragge PDF" force counts as Guard, painted up in Ultramarines colors. It actually looked pretty cool alongside the Ultramarines models (mostly because he used gold instead of that ugly friggin' yellow).

HERESY!

The marines have a little more respect for themselves than the Guardsmen and dont just toss their bodies at the enemy. Plus they don't attack the enemy head on, they attack things that will weaken the enemy to where the Marines can actually attack the main force of the enemy.

ironhand45 wrote:The marines have a little more respect for themselves than the Guardsmen and dont just toss their bodies at the enemy. Plus they don't attack the enemy head on, they attack things that will weaken the enemy to where the Marines can actually attack the main force of the enemy.

Eh, not really. Nine times out of ten, Marines in fluff are 1) making an idiotic last stand or 2) attacking the enemy head on.

Most of the time it's Pedro Kantor or Cato Sicarius doing the former, and the Space Wolves, Black Templars, and Blood Angels doing the latter.

There must be a clause in the Codex Astartes that says you have to abandon all semblance of tactical acumen and throw yourself at the enemy.

The reason it works for Marines rather than Guardsmen is the fact that Marines basic infantry wear the equivalent of tank armor. So, y'know. There's that.

SaintHazard wrote:The reason it works for Marines rather than Guardsmen is the fact that Marines basic infantry wear the equivalent of plot armor. So, y'know. There's that.

Fixed that for ya

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:The reason it works for Marines rather than Guardsmen is the fact that Marines basic infantry wear the equivalent of plot armor. So, y'know. There's that.

Fixed that for ya

Well yes, there's that too! It's basically a layer of plot armor over the tank armor.

But the Guard have a similar advantage - the entire number of Guardsman available in any given tactical situation can always be described as "plot."

"We're losing Guardsmen left and right out there!"

"Don't worry, Colonel. We have plot more. Send in the reserves!"

Technically speaking, There shouldn't even be enough marines to attack in large numbers.
In the fluff they are referred to, don't quote me on this, as elite storm troopers meaning that the IG first engage the enemy then the space marines pummel the enemy down from the flanks. One on one SM win, however if it was entire army vs entire army the ratio of IG to SM is roughly 1000:1. Plus the tanks ratio is 250:1 at least and the IG have superior tanks anyway.
All in all, the SM would get smashed by the IG in full force deployment.

To get it through your thick space marine skulls i'll put it this way:
1=1
1<1000.
1000>1.

For the Emperor!!!

---------------------------------------
Nerd rage terminated.

Cadichan Support wrote:Technically speaking, There shouldn't even be enough marines to attack in large numbers.
In the fluff they are referred to, don't quote me on this, as elite storm troopers meaning that the IG first engage the enemy then the space marines pummel the enemy down from the flanks. One on one SM win, however if it was entire army vs entire army the ratio of IG to SM is roughly 1000:1.

Oh pfeh, that's not even close. The uncounted billions of the Guard are far more numerous than that. Millions are recruited from hive worlds every year just to pay taxes.

Melissia wrote:

Cadichan Support wrote:Technically speaking, There shouldn't even be enough marines to attack in large numbers.
In the fluff they are referred to, don't quote me on this, as elite storm troopers meaning that the IG first engage the enemy then the space marines pummel the enemy down from the flanks. One on one SM win, however if it was entire army vs entire army the ratio of IG to SM is roughly 1000:1.

Oh pfeh, that's not even close. The uncounted billions of the Guard are far more numerous than that. Millions are recruited from hive worlds every year just to pay taxes.

My point exactly.

I like guard much better than most marine chapters. They just don't have the "derp derp we are the bestest with awesome armours and never die and doesn't afraid of anything!" theme that the SM's seem to have. They are just the unwilling but comitted massess of faceless troops, dieing every day in the name of the Emperor but still finding room in all the slaughter for victory.

I still can't believe people are even arguing over whether a Space Marine is better than a guardsman. A Super Human, or a non-super human.

I think the argument that Imperial Guard are better because they spend half their time dying for the emperor is moot IMHO.

I think you only need to look to the Great Crusade to see the comparison betweens Marine and Guard on a large-scale.

I admit to being a Space Marine fan and hence having some bias, but to compare a Space Marine to a Guardsman?!

Just Dave wrote:I think you only need to look to the Great Crusade to see the comparison betweens Marine and Guard on a large-scale.

The Great Crusade. Oh yeah, that ended well, what with fully half of all Marines turning traitor and all. Yeah, good job proving your point there.

Melissia wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I think you only need to look to the Great Crusade to see the comparison betweens Marine and Guard on a large-scale.

The Great Crusade. Oh yeah, that ended well, what with fully half of all Marines turning traitor and all. Yeah, good job proving your point there.

another thing the SM couldnt do the great crusade alone thus the Imperial army was created

Oh yeah, genius Melissia, because none of the Imperial Guard turned traitor? Forgot that.

I actually meant it as the Space Marines were at the forefront of one of the greatest galactic expansions and that they were created as the Imperial Guard couldn't manage it alone.

What's too tough for the Guard they send the Marines to deal with. I imagine they're referred to as the greatest warriors in the galaxy for a reason...

You are assuming that it took the Space Marines to do that.

No, it took the Emperor to do that. And even then, the Space Marines didn't do it alone.

Just Dave wrote:Oh yeah, genius Melissia, because none of the Imperial Guard turned traitor? Forgot that.

I actually meant it as the Space Marines were at the forefront of one of the greatest galactic expansions and that they were created as the Imperial Guard couldn't manage it alone.

What's too tough for the Guard they send the Marines to deal with. I imagine they're referred to as the greatest warriors in the galaxy for a reason...

yes 40-50% of the imperial army turned traitor but who turn first? half of the SM, you have it the other way around concering the great crusade. whats too tough for the guard? please explane to me whats too tough for the guard.

No, I'm not assuming it took the Space Marines to do that, I'm saying they were at the head of this galactic expansion. Which they were. I admit the Space Marines didn't do it alone, of course they didn't, however, they led the way.

As to the Imperial Guard also turning traitor, lets not get into an argument of 'he started it' when it comes to that, as that won't prove much of worth imho.

As to what is too tough for the Guard? I'm not sure, maybe rapidly crippling and overwhelming entire planets? The Nurthene? A planet with flying buggers featured in A Thousand Sons? Orbital Combat? The list goes on...

I ask you, what is too tough, particularly on the offence, for Space Marines?

Space Marines are better speechifiers. "SPESS Mahreenz! Todah we fight foh deh honra of deh Emprah!"

Hand to hand combat:Space Marines
Gun fight:Space Marines
Tank fight:Imperial Guard
Aerial Fight:Imperial Guard
so it kinda depends on what the situation of the battle

ironhand45 wrote:Aerial Fight:Imperial Guard

Thunderhawk Gunships say hell no.

You do of course realize that Thunderhawk gunships are designed primarily for space combat and ground support, right?

They're not interceptors or superiority craft.

Kanluwen wrote:You do of course realize that Thunderhawk gunships are designed primarily for space combat and ground support, right?

They're not interceptors or superiority craft.

Doesn't mean they can't perform as such. They're maneuverable enough. Not as maneuverable as a Vulture, but much more heavily armed than a Vulture as well.

Tthe Thunderhawk is really just for pick ups and drop offs and occasionaly have small dogfights and bombing runs. The Imperial Guard have two ships for all of those things and have more superior fighter planes

Just Dave wrote:

As to what is too tough for the Guard? I'm not sure, maybe rapidly crippling and overwhelming entire planets? The Nurthene? A planet with flying buggers featured in A Thousand Sons? Orbital Combat? The list goes on...

I ask you, what is too tough, particularly on the offence, for Space Marines?

And space hulks! Can't forget space hulks! Guardsmen crammed into a space hulk... I'd like to see that!

SaintHazard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You do of course realize that Thunderhawk gunships are designed primarily for space combat and ground support, right?

They're not interceptors or superiority craft.

Doesn't mean they can't perform as such. They're maneuverable enough. Not as maneuverable as a Vulture, but much more heavily armed than a Vulture as well.

No, they're really not maneuverable. Not against the Imperial air superiority or interceptor craft--of which the Vulture isn't, as it's a ground attack VTOL.

Thunderhawks pitted against Lightnings or Thunderbolts are going down.

Just Dave wrote:As to what is too tough for the Guard? I'm not sure, maybe rapidly crippling and overwhelming entire planets? The Nurthene? A planet with flying buggers featured in A Thousand Sons? Orbital Combat? The list goes on...

I ask you, what is too tough, particularly on the offence, for Space Marines?

1: Nope, the Guard are capable of that with the proper strategy (for example, naval bombardment followed by rapid mechanized advance with close artillery support). Space Marines, however, cannot rapidly conquer an entire planet by themselves without committing significant forces-- a single company of Marines isn't really capable of withstanding the attrition necessary to truly conquer a well-defended planet on their own, nevermind suppress a resisting populace. Multiple companies would be necessary to say the least.

2: The Nurthene destroyed themselves after the Imperium pressed them too hard. Hardly a threat capable of dealing with a full fledged Imperial invasion.

3: Hydras and aerospace fighters could deal with them with proper planning.

4: Astartes ships are designed for the sole purpose of deploying Astartes and providing orbital bombardment support when necessary, they are not designed for space combat. The Imperial Navy, however, is designed for space combat, and has far more in firepower and numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Freelancer48 wrote:And space hulks! Can't forget space hulks! Guardsmen crammed into a space hulk... I'd like to see that!

Space Hulks might be the one place that Astartes are unequivocally better.

I also liek Spaec Marines because they're like the Master Cheif who is the coolest space marin of all.

"We are space Marines we doesn't afraid of anything!"

"Purge the aleins!"

Lolz.

Guard is really underrated... they don't just go die in droves, it's just a tactical option for their commanders which Marines don't have. If they have to do a meat grinder war, they can do it-- but most commanders would rather destroy their enemies without such high costs in life (any guardsman that survives the first battle will be able to fight a second one after all, and they'll be less likely to run during the second one to boot). And the commanders have stormtroopers and veterans to dispatch on special missions (Although technically there wouldn't be a rank called "veteran", just that they'd pick the most skilled people for that particular mission). Not quite as good as Marines for special missions, but it gets the job done more often than not.

I will agree to that.

But I still think that the Space Marines get the job done faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly than the Guard in most situations.

And isn't getting results what matters most?

SaintHazard wrote:But I still think that the Space Marines get the job done faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly than the Guard in most situations.

Define "most situations". Because I disagree, and I think that's what it hinges on.

SaintHazard wrote:But I still think that the Space Marines get the job done faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly than the Guard in most situations.

Marines get the job done "faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly" when it comes to surgical strikes. If it's an opponent who can psychologically be intimidated then Marines are king. Putting down insurrections, up and coming heresies, etc is a fantastic job when it focuses on putting down a single target to break the back of the enemy.

Otherwise, Marines are absolutely useless without Guard support. And considering "most situations" in the 40kverse are against beasts that feel no fear, pity, nor remorse...

That makes Marines pretty damned useless.

Kanluwen wrote:Marines get the job done "faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly" when it comes to surgical strikes.

Which is the minority of all conflicts in 40k.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:But I still think that the Space Marines get the job done faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly than the Guard in most situations.

Define "most situations". Because I disagree, and I think that's what it hinges on.

To be more specific, if it's a job the Guard can do, I think that the Space Marines have the technology, training, equipment, and resolve to get in there and do it better, even if that's not necessary.

The Guard almost always boils down to 1) fight a war of attrition, 2) send in our best men, or 3) holy gak, we won this one? How'd that happen? (Incompetent enemies.)

Space Marine engagements always boil down to 1) strike hard, fast, and true (and win) or 2) fail, because we'll be damned if ANYONE can handle this one, followed by Exterminatus.

Of course, if you can think of examples where this is reversed or untrue, feel free to cite them, I personally have not seen any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

SaintHazard wrote:To be more specific, if it's a job the Guard can do, I think that the Space Marines have the technology, training, equipment, and resolve to get in there and do it better, even if that's not necessary.

Better != more efficiently (note that I do not agree on that point, either). Marines are extravagantly expensive to bring up, to maintain, to equip, and to train, and the results are not always worth what you pay for. And even then they aren't reliable, as they are loyal to their chapter first and the Imperium second.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Marines get the job done "faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly" when it comes to surgical strikes.

Which is the minority of all conflicts in 40k.

Which was my point. There's very few times where Marines are the clear cut, 100% only viable option for a campaign. However, the Guard are always worthwhile

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:To be more specific, if it's a job the Guard can do, I think that the Space Marines have the technology, training, equipment, and resolve to get in there and do it better, even if that's not necessary.

Better != more efficiently (note that I do not agree on that point, either). Marines are extravagantly expensive to bring up, to maintain, to equip, and to train, and the results are not always worth what you pay for. And even then they aren't reliable, as they are loyal to their chapter first and the Imperium second.

Not necessarily! Are we talking about Space Wolves here, or Ultramarines? Blood Angels, or Imperial Fists? Dark Angels, or Salamanders? In any of those situations, the former, yes, you're correct, they are loyal to the Chapter and Chapter cult before the Emperor, but in the latter case, I disagree. Codex chapters, while they may honor the Chapter cult in words, typically will serve Emperor and Imperium first.

And while they may be more expensive to maintain than Guardsmen on a one-to-one basis, think about numbers here. Guardsmen outnumber Marines billions to one. If your average Guardsman costs five widgets to maintain, and your average Marine costs five thousand widgets, the Guard, on the whole, is still vastly more expensive to equip and maintain than the Marines. Especially since most Marine chapters quite literally provide for themselves - Techmarines maintain their equipment (which is, often thousands of years old), they handle their own recruiting, only their brand new wargear comes from a forge world, and they're getting brand new gear wayyyyy less often than your average Guard regiment.

I love this thread, look what you fluffers did SHAME!

Anyways I shall come out of the dark to say once more.

Look at the models, what do you find cool about them? Why, ask yourself questions before spending hundreds of $$$ on the army.

Then do it. Vostryoan Guardsmen, Black Templar, hell even Dark Eldar. It's cool man

Really good oppinions from all, just on a side note, whenever IG face tyrannids alone they die, even their fleets, when facing a major swarm ussually, die, right then whennever they do win, its really lucky, SM their ships highly armoure and all, can just teleport, or, hmmm lets see drive right down the middle, and drill into the hive mind and win they do this they ussually do win, but if they fail, its ussually a terrible, loss yes, but wothout SM, IG die when facing nidds, its a fluff fact, give me one battle where IG win against nidds alone on the ground, when facing nidds, in fluff, IGs' numbers dont count for squat.

Gregersen wrote:... give me one battle where IG win against nidds alone on the ground, when facing nidds, in fluff, IGs' numbers dont count for squat.

Cadian 9th defeated Hive Fleet Scarabus at Carcasonne without losing a single company. The Catachan 18th wiped out the Tyranid infestation on Koralkal 8.

ironhand45 wrote: What do you think is better, Imperial Guard or Space Marines ?

The Tau







@OP-
Seriously, Go with the IG. Greater variety of builds and good looking models that have a militaistic feel about them. The IG are arguably the arny that best fits the fluff and playstyle that it is supposed to have.

IMO,The SM models suck, from their severe scoliosis (Look at a terminator from the side and try to draw a spine line frim the head to the back) all the way down past their pencil thighs to their gianormous disco bell bottom calves. Then there are the rediculously oversized pauldrons that would prevent them from scratch their noses much less let them swing a sword. SMs are just horrible looking models that can only be liked by that portion of the inner psyche that identifies with being 10-11 years old.
They are horribly proportioned and scaled(8' tall SM same hight as IG gaurdsman?) and they look more like an ugly version of a Buzz Lightyear than fearsome warriors.
I will admit that the Land Raider is a cool model and it is the only SM model that GW itself produces that I like.

focusedfire wrote:

ironhand45 wrote: What do you think is better, Imperial Guard or Space Marines ?

The Tau

Amen.

focusedfire wrote:@OP-
Seriously, Go with the IG. Greater variety of builds and good looking models that have a militaistic feel about them. The IG are arguably the arny that best fits the fluff and playstyle that it is supposed to have.

I'm not sure I agree with you here - which fluff? What playstyle are you referring to? Zooming around in APCs while tanks and artillery pound away from afar? Doesn't actually sound terribly fluffy to me.

focusedfire wrote:IMO,The SM models suck, from their severe scoliosis (Look at a terminator from the side and try to draw a spine line frim the head to the back) all the way down past their pencil thighs to their gianormous disco bell bottom calves. Then there are the rediculously oversized pauldrons that would prevent them from scratch their noses much less let them swing a sword.

A straight line can be drawn from a Terminator's waist to his head. He's hunched forward a bit, but it can be done easily. As for the rest, that's power armor dude. The pauldrons are kind of ridiculous, I'll grant you that, but if nobody had oversized pauldrons, how would you know who's in charge? It's like the IG with their enormous hats. "I have the biggest hat, therefore I am Commissar."

focusedfire wrote:SMs are just horrible looking models that can only be liked by that portion of the inner psyche that identifies with being 10-11 years old.
They are horribly proportioned and scaled(8' tall SM same hight as IG gaurdsman?) and they look more like an ugly version of a Buzz Lightyear than fearsome warriors.
I will admit that the Land Raider is a cool model and it is the only SM model that GW itself produces that I like.

Okay, I take a little bit of offense at you likening me to a 10 year old, but I'll let it slide, since I'm in a good mood today. As for the scale, their all 28mm miniatures, unfortunately the scale is going to be a little off. APCs that can't possibly actually hold 10 of these miniatures, Space Marines who are the same size as Guardsmen, etc. As for the Land Raider, you picked one of my least favorite models as your favorite, but to each his own.

SaintHazard wrote:

focusedfire wrote:@OP-
Seriously, Go with the IG. Greater variety of builds and good looking models that have a militaistic feel about them. The IG are arguably the arny that best fits the fluff and playstyle that it is supposed to have.

I'm not sure I agree with you here - which fluff? What playstyle are you referring to? Zooming around in APCs while tanks and artillery pound away from afar? Doesn't actually sound terribly fluffy to me.

The IG Is supposed to be a mechanized and manpower based army. It lives not off of its elites but instead the massed firepower of it troops and support units. This last codex was amazingly well written and formulated in how it allowd you run viable infantry mobs with artillery support, fully mechanized forces or an arial strike Air Cav style armies. The IG ,IMO, uses the most easily recognizable strategies because they are the closest thing that 40K has to being a corollary to a real world Army.

SaintHazard wrote:

focusedfire wrote:IMO,The SM models suck, from their severe scoliosis (Look at a terminator from the side and try to draw a spine line frim the head to the back) all the way down past their pencil thighs to their gianormous disco bell bottom calves. Then there are the rediculously oversized pauldrons that would prevent them from scratch their noses much less let them swing a sword.

A straight line can be drawn from a Terminator's waist to his head. He's hunched forward a bit, but it can be done easily. As for the rest, that's power armor dude. The pauldrons are kind of ridiculous, I'll grant you that, but if nobody had oversized pauldrons, how would you know who's in charge? It's like the IG with their enormous hats. "I have the biggest hat, therefore I am Commissar."

A)That straight line puts the neck about 6" in front of where it would be on a humanoid that is 8' tall.
B)Then try to lay out the body dimensions under the armour. It doesn't even come close, the shoulder and arm ratios would necessitate that they were cut off from the body and set a considerable distance outside of any concievable attachment point to the torso.
C)There are other ways to determine the rank. The SMs do not need to have transmission case bell housting for their pauldrons. Actually, the bell housings would be smaller. Still thanks for agreeing about the Pauldrons.
D)I'll take your silence on the ridiculous legs as an agreement that they are obnoxious

SaintHazard wrote:

focusedfire wrote:SMs are just horrible looking models that can only be liked by that portion of the inner psyche that identifies with being 10-11 years old.
They are horribly proportioned and scaled(8' tall SM same hight as IG gaurdsman?) and they look more like an ugly version of a Buzz Lightyear than fearsome warriors.
I will admit that the Land Raider is a cool model and it is the only SM model that GW itself produces that I like.

Okay, I take a little bit of offense at you likening me to a 10 year old, but I'll let it slide, since I'm in a good mood today. As for the scale, their all 28mm miniatures, unfortunately the scale is going to be a little off. APCs that can't possibly actually hold 10 of these miniatures, Space Marines who are the same size as Guardsmen, etc. As for the Land Raider, you picked one of my least favorite models as your favorite, but to each his own.

A)Re-read what I said. I highlighted the pertinent part. I never made a statement that likened you to anything.
B)My comment was about a portion of the human psyche that would be drawn to such. We all have an inner child of many ages, I refered to what I believe the target age range for these models are.
C)I Wouldn't call a failure to increase hieght and mass by 30% "a little off". GW claims to be a model manufacterer first and that is why we have to suffer with poorly written rules, yet they can't be bothered to make their models any where close to being scale accurate.
D) GW has made other armies that are very nicely scaled, the SMs just are not one of those armies.

And Finally
E)Yeah I like the landraider because of it being closer to scale and for the working assault ramps that show GW actually put effort into the model design. It also looks right for what it is supposed to portray. Now I agree with what you said about our difference of tastes, "to each his own".

IG can get Land Raiders

Gregersen wrote:Really good oppinions from all, just on a side note, whenever IG face tyrannids alone they die, even their fleets, when facing a major swarm ussually, die, right then whennever they do win, its really lucky

That's funny, so do Space Marines.

The Guard pushes off Tyranid and Genestealer threats all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:And while they may be more expensive to maintain than Guardsmen on a one-to-one basis, think about numbers here.

No, they're more expensive on a thousand to one basis, if not moreso. A lasgun is cheap and reliable, easily serviceable, and effective (despite its infamy in tabletop). Its ammunition recharges itself, it's cheap to produce and each clip holds quite a few shots. Flak armor is cheap and easy to manufacture (Even primitive cultures can manufacture it), yet still effective against most enemies. It's also extremely light as well (modern body armor is heavy and clunky in comparison), allowing for ease of movement and lack of fatigue.

Meanwhile, Bolters are expensive. A single clip of civilian-quality bolter shells costs more than five lasguns. A civilian boltgun itself costs nearly seven times as much as a lasgun. These aren't the high quality, huge and powerful boltguns used by the Astartes, these are just the imitation brands, so to speak, purchased by nobles and bounty hunters. An imitation Astartes caliber bolt carbine (not as high quality as the real thing, but able to fire the right ammunition-- the real thing would cost around ten times this much) costs ~27 times as much as a lasgun. And the Astartes class bolter shells themselves are also extremely expensive.

And then there's maintenance, as both power armor and bolters require a ton of maintenance. They are far too expensive just to replace, and they cannot last as long on the field without maintenance as lasgun and flak armor-- even the best quality bolters are prone to jamming in comparison to a common quality lasgun, and power armor has to be maintained meticulously because you do NOT want that malfunctioning at all. This maintenance costs time and money, either time for the Astartes or the time purchased for their servants (who could have been doing something else), and any jamming or malfunction can mean death to the soldier involved or a failure of the mission.


The last thing Marines are is cost efficient. Powerful, skilled, useful perhaps, but not efficient. The Imperium does not keep supplying Marines because they are efficient, they do so out of tradition and religion.


edit: Oh, and these costs come from Dark Heresy and supplements. In Dark Hersy, bolters are actually kinda undercosted for balance purposes (they should cost more given the fluff, but don't so that players can actually have them occasionally), as it is a roleplaying game after all.

Okay, so what would you say the ratio actually is?

If a Guardsman costs five widgets, does a Space Marine, like I said, cost five thousand? Fifty thousand?

If a Guardsman costs five widgets, and a Space Marine costs five hundred thousand widgets, the Space Marines, who are outnumbered by Guardsmen at least a billion to one, are still much cheaper on the whole.

Say there are a trillion Guardsmen, who cost five widgets each. That's five trillion widgets.

Say there are a million Marines, who cost five hundred thousand widgets each. That five hundred billion widgets.

Five trillion > five hundred billion.

And I'm being EXTREMELY generous regarding the cost of Space Marines, they probably don't cost five hundred thousand widgets each.

SaintHazard wrote:Okay, so what would you say the ratio actually is?

If a Guardsman costs five widgets, does a Space Marine, like I said, cost five thousand? Fifty thousand?

If a Guardsman costs five widgets, and a Space Marine costs five hundred thousand widgets, the Space Marines, who are outnumbered by Guardsmen at least a billion to one, are still much cheaper on the whole.

Say there are a trillion Guardsmen, who cost five widgets each. That's five trillion widgets.

Say there are a million Marines, who cost five hundred thousand widgets each. That five hundred billion widgets.

Five trillion > five hundred billion.

And I'm being EXTREMELY generous regarding the cost of Space Marines, they probably don't cost five hundred thousand widgets each.

Cost? Space marines fight for the honor, not money.....
Guard still get paid.....

So its clearly :

A few SM ( bring their own stuff and do not expect payment )
vs
Tons of IG ( get paid, need supplies of the muntiorum, need transports of the imperial navy,..)

Wars arent cheap, and IG isn't for free.

Where SM are like vassals (who sustain themselves financially) to the emperor, IG needs the Imperium to cover their cost after basic equipment. Recrutement worlds do not finance them afterwards, they just deliver as tithe "as is".
Mechanicum units would also come without additional cost.

You can't just stack up the total cost of each force to determine their economy since that assumes that each force contributes just as much. The Guard outnumber Space Marines by over a thousand to one, but the Imperium also relies on its Guardsmen to a greater extent. Marines don't have the numbers to even contemplate providing for the entire military needs of the Imperium, while the Guard often do have to go it alone, only receiving Marine support if the campaign catches a chapter's attention.
According to Rogal Dorn, Space Marines are worth roughly ten times their number of other troops.

Melissia wrote:

Just Dave wrote:As to what is too tough for the Guard? I'm not sure, maybe rapidly crippling and overwhelming entire planets? The Nurthene? A planet with flying buggers featured in A Thousand Sons? Orbital Combat? The list goes on...

I ask you, what is too tough, particularly on the offence, for Space Marines?

1: Nope, the Guard are capable of that with the proper strategy (for example, naval bombardment followed by rapid mechanized advance with close artillery support). Space Marines, however, cannot rapidly conquer an entire planet by themselves without committing significant forces-- a single company of Marines isn't really capable of withstanding the attrition necessary to truly conquer a well-defended planet on their own, nevermind suppress a resisting populace. Multiple companies would be necessary to say the least.

2: The Nurthene destroyed themselves after the Imperium pressed them too hard. Hardly a threat capable of dealing with a full fledged Imperial invasion.

3: Hydras and aerospace fighters could deal with them with proper planning.

4: Astartes ships are designed for the sole purpose of deploying Astartes and providing orbital bombardment support when necessary, they are not designed for space combat. The Imperial Navy, however, is designed for space combat, and has far more in firepower and numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Freelancer48 wrote:And space hulks! Can't forget space hulks! Guardsmen crammed into a space hulk... I'd like to see that!

Space Hulks might be the one place that Astartes are unequivocally better.

1. I didn't realise the Imperial Guard could deploy so rapidly. I forgot they don't have to wait for the orbital bombardment to finish, then use heavy-landers etc. to land vast amounts of fast-moving troops. Whereas the Space Marines can only deploy instantly and rapidly via the likes of drop-pod and teleport. Space Marines - true, can't exactly suppress a populace - but can bring a planet to it's knees with relatively little blood-shed through sheer shock and awe and being able to take on what-ever, wherever.

2. The Nurthene was defending against a full Imperial Invasion. The leader (Natjimara) even admitted they needed the help of Space Marines.

3. While the rest of the Guard do what? There are limited amounts of such guardsmen/vehicles whereas every Space Marine can manage it.

4. I actually meant the likes of boarding actions. Soul Hunter springs to mind.

I think one need only look at the in-game statistics of a Space Marine to see their superiority. Better BS,WS,T,S,I,Sv and leadership. A Space Marine is better than a Guardsman, no doubt about that. Fluff or game.

The Emperor didn't create the Imperial Guard because they were capable of conquering the galaxy. No he created the Space Marines.

I don't recall anyone ever saying this about the Imperial Guard: "They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear."

I don't deny, Space Marines aren't numerous of cheap enough to form the main army of the Imperium, however, they are BETTER than Imperial Guardsmen, they are supposed to be the BEST warriors in the galaxy.
I admit to being biased towards Space Marines, but I'm a reasonable person and will listen to reason, but I can't see a good reason for Imperial Guard being BETTER than Space Marines. They're cheaper, more numerous, better on planet-wide defence etc. but the Space Marines are designed to be the BEST and IMHO they are.

Melissia wrote:

The last thing Marines are is cost efficient. Powerful, skilled, useful perhaps, but not efficient. The Imperium does not keep supplying Marines because they are efficient, they do so out of tradition and religion.

Ugh.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

Freelancer48 wrote:And space hulks! Can't forget space hulks! Guardsmen crammed into a space hulk... I'd like to see that!

I know this comment was made facetiously, but it does cut to the heart of the matter. Space Marines are not designed to be an army fighting huge battles, they are intended to concentrate as much force in one point as possible. A single squad of Grey Knight Terminators in the right place could accomplish what a million IG regiments could not.

Alpharius wrote:
And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

I don't know about the Imperium but GW keeps them around to grab money off of the parents of 10-14 year old male teens.

Seriously, I hate the models. I could tolerate the Sms being the GW posterboys if the models were right. Kinda like what Hits_the_spot is doing with his truescale Art kits. I would quickly own a BT or DA army if GW made and supported models like what he is doing.

I know,*gasp*well known SM hater focusedfire said he would get a SM army. My main problem all along has been the models. I like the concept of beach storming marines being used to establish footholds on fortified worlds and for surgical strikes. It has been the models and the commoness of the armies that have kept me from buying. I could get past the every other army are SMs if the models were inspiring.

focusedfire wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

I don't know about the Imperium but GW keeps them around to grab money off of the parents of 10-14 year old male teens.

Seriously, I hate the models. I could tolerate the Sms being the GW posterboys if the models were right. Kinda like what Hits_the_spot is doing with his truescale Art kits. I would quickly own a BT or DA army if GW made and supported models like what he is doing.

I know,*gasp*well known SM hater focusedfire said he would get a SM army. My main problem all along has been the models. I like the concept of beach storming marines being used to establish footholds on fortified worlds and for surgical strikes. It has been the models and the commoness of the armies that have kept me from buying. I could get past the every other army are SMs if the models were inspiring.

So get some suitably badass-looking models from another franchise and proxy them for Space Marines. There are plenty of good wargames out there with different looks that might fit what you want. If all you hate is the models, get different models.

Alpharius wrote:

Melissia wrote:

The last thing Marines are is cost efficient. Powerful, skilled, useful perhaps, but not efficient. The Imperium does not keep supplying Marines because they are efficient, they do so out of tradition and religion.

Ugh.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

She's right this time, however. The Adeptus Astartes are woefully unefficient in the majority of campaigns that the Imperium wages, at least if they were deployed on their own.

They come into their reputation of being superhuman killing machines when their finesse for seizing objectives unsupported or taking down high value targets like Hive Tyrants, Fire Caste Commanders, or even renegade Astartes is necessary though--the things that the Guard have a tough time tackling without wasting hundreds upon hundreds of lives.

SaintHazard wrote:

Cambak wrote:

ironhand45 wrote:But if the space marine has a power fist, than a lightly armoured or even a leman russ is screwed. But Guard has a buttload of aerial fighters and the only thing that might be able to take out a squadron of fighters is the whirlwind, so its almost balanced out but the Guard might have the advantage

Power fist, say hello to 50 conscripts, 5 to 20 las cannons, and/or up to 100 to 300(if in rapid fire) lasgun shots! You will fail your armor save eventually.

50 conscripts, say hello to my Whirlwind's large blast template.

... where did the conscripts go?!

2" coherency spread, maybe cover, you can shoot at them all 7 turns and that unit will still be there.


And if you want to get into a large template war with IG, I'll be happy to oblige any day of the week. I don't think you'll like the results. Your three whirlwinds against my 3 Manticores or 9 bassy's, lets do this.



In all honesty, from a fluff comparison, the Imperial Guard as a whole is many, many orders of magnitude more powerful than the Space Marines. The vast majority of the Imperium's wars are fought and won by the Imperial Guard and Navy without so much as a single Space Marine boot. There are billions of guardsmen for every Space Marine. SM codex's have routinely compared a Space Marine to be the equal of ten or twelve normal human soldiers, so even with a million Astartes, their actual relative power doesn't even register next to that of the Imperial Guard.

The Emperor didn't create the Imperial Guard because they were capable of conquering the galaxy. No he created the Space Marines

And quickly found he didn't have anywhere near enough, necessitating the creation of the Imperial Army. Then half of those Space Marines turned on him.

As a marines and IG player I feel qualified to have an opinion here.

What the arguments here break down into is that the marines are better at storming yonder fortress in the mountains quickly and cleanly and the IG are better at defending the empire as a whole.

Personally I think an easy way to think about it is could the Space Marines survive without the IG? No, the Imperium would collapse.
Could the IG suvive without the Space Marines? Eh. Debate that as much as you want. The Imperium might shrink but I think the entire Guard could protect it better than the entirety of the Asartes.. Just my opinion.

Although, back the OPs ACTUAL question, depends on what you want. If you want a badass looking army of hard hitting tac marines and dreadnoughts, go sm.
If you want a huge army of mass infantry or devastating armour or both? Go IG.
Personally, I enjoy my valhallans more than the sm. Its more satisfying when regular ole' men stomp out the overwhelming xenos threat than when super humans do.. imho =)

For me, hands down the marines if we are talking about the fluffy marines, not the toned down miniature marines. Don't get me wrong I still love playing with the Miniature marines, but I find the fluffy marines portrayed in various books to sound much more beefy and tough.

Tonytiger89 wrote:For me, hands down the marines if we are talking about the fluffy marines, not the toned down miniature marines. Don't get me wrong I still love playing with the Miniature marines, but I find the fluffy marines portrayed in various books to sound much more beefy and tough.

That also depends on what fluff. The 5E Space Marine codex? 3E codex Space Marines? Imperial Armour space marines? Brothers of the Snake god level invincible super titan mega gigantor space marines? Horus Heresy space marines?

They are all very different from one another. Sometimes Space Marines are just elite, ridiculously well equipped guardsmen, sometimes they are unstoppable plot armored mega mary sues, and everything in between.

Raxmei wrote:You can't just stack up the total cost of each force to determine their economy since that assumes that each force contributes just as much. The Guard outnumber Space Marines by over a thousand to one, but the Imperium also relies on its Guardsmen to a greater extent. Marines don't have the numbers to even contemplate providing for the entire military needs of the Imperium, while the Guard often do have to go it alone, only receiving Marine support if the campaign catches a chapter's attention.
According to Rogal Dorn, Space Marines are worth roughly ten times their number of other troops.

And yet they cost hundreds if not thousands of times more. But they serve their purpose, which is not as the army of the Imperium but the Imperium's special forces to the extreme.

Alpharius wrote:It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

Did I ever say otherwise? No? Then stop insinuating I did. Every thread I post in that involves a discussion about Space Marines in any form ot, you say the same thing... and it's always wrong.

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Melissia wrote:

The last thing Marines are is cost efficient. Powerful, skilled, useful perhaps, but not efficient. The Imperium does not keep supplying Marines because they are efficient, they do so out of tradition and religion.

Ugh.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

She's right this time, however. The Adeptus Astartes are woefully unefficient in the majority of campaigns that the Imperium wages, at least if they were deployed on their own.

They come into their reputation of being superhuman killing machines when their finesse for seizing objectives unsupported or taking down high value targets like Hive Tyrants, Fire Caste Commanders, or even renegade Astartes is necessary though--the things that the Guard have a tough time tackling without wasting hundreds upon hundreds of lives.

Except that's not the part I was calling into question.

Melissia wrote:

Alpharius wrote:It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

Did I ever say otherwise? No? Then stop insinuating I did. Every thread I post in, you say the same thing, and you're always wrong-- your constant baseless assumptions that I bash people for liking Marines needs to stop.

It would stop if it were true.

Your constant running up the flag pole everything Sisters related at the expense of everything else?

That would be cool if that stopped.

Given the right situation either can sound equally as good as the other. At the end of the day it's down to opinion.

Delving into this efficiency business, both sides have their weak points. Marines being their numbers, while Guard lack in the specialist ability department. The two sides are rather complimentary actually.

Now that is sorted, I think it's time for a group hug.... anyone with me?

Colossal Donkey wrote:Now that is sorted, I think it's time for a group hug.... anyone with me?

While Space Marines individually hug with much greater force and precision, you can't hope to hug the entire Imperium without the countless ranks of the Imperial Guard.

Raxmei wrote:While Space Marines individually hug with much greater force and precision, you can't hope to hug the entire Imperium without the countless ranks of the Imperial Guard.

If I was drinking tea, I would have choked on it. Good show

Raxmei wrote:

Colossal Donkey wrote:Now that is sorted, I think it's time for a group hug.... anyone with me?

While Space Marines individually hug with much greater force and precision, you can't hope to hug the entire Imperium without the countless ranks of the Imperial Guard.

sigged

I'll Just say,

The Imperial guard is: Slow to mobilize, hard to supply, and difficult to keep in line. But they are like a steamroller slowly crushing a huge tube of toothpaste. They Keep pushing intell they win. The only real reasons Imperial guard do not win is, Their Supply Lines Dry up, Reinforcements do not show, or their is an unknown Big problem (the X Factor)

The Space Marines Are: Quick to Form up, pinpoint targets like a Brain Surgeon, and they have an Iron Will. But, They are Unable to deploy for a long term on one planet alone without Support. They are like a demolition team placing charges and destroying key parts of a sky scraper.

Imho if the space marines split up more/ had more small groups around the sectors, and they could send a squad or two to help imperial guard Forces take the hardest key Objectives.

Like the Marines Drop pot into the Bunker on top of the hill clear it out and then leave to help elsewhere, it would make everyone's life easier. Help turn that battle from a month long Campaign to a Few hour long Skirmish.

The Space marines are not being used to their full extent.

CaragaraPDF wrote:The Imperial guard is: [...] hard to supply

Quite the opposite actually. THe Imperial Guard is easy to supply, certainly FAR easier than Astartes.

CaragaraPDF wrote:The Space marines are not being used to their full extent.

You should write a letter to the emperor.

Cantus wrote:

CaragaraPDF wrote:The Space marines are not being used to their full extent.

You should write a letter to the emperor.

I did... He sent it back unopened.

Like Oprah!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

CaragaraPDF wrote:The Imperial guard is: [...] hard to supply

Quite the opposite actually. THe Imperial Guard is easy to supply, certainly FAR easier than Astartes.

Well hard in the sense of food and such on the battlefield.

CaragaraPDF wrote:Well hard in the sense of food and such on the battlefield.

Not really. Guard rations are plentiful, cheap, and last for a long time. Yes, it takes more to feed that many guardsmen than Marines, but it costs FAR more to supply equipment and ammunition to Marines-- and furthermore, you have to supply new ammunition after each mission, whereas Guardsmen have rechargable packs. Each single clip from an Astartes boltgun costs more than it would take to equip a squad or more of Guardsman for a long campaign. A campaign, not just a single clip for a single mission.

Actually, Guard rations are notoriously cheap... it's said that the extra rations Cain left behind in the desert were still there where he left them a century later and as edible as they ever were.

Meh no sense arguing over how long ration packs last.

We all know i'm right. Jk i'm not that self centered.

You are probably right.

Astartes don't need food...their armour has the recycling thingy mabobber. They don't even need a weopon. A metal cestus (AKA their fist) can do the job just fine. But, with so short numbers, I wouldn't reccomend sending a chapter alone somewhere. Rather, they make good support units. Keep em in reserve till a specialist is needed, then send the miniature tanks on a suicide run. Like a conversation I had one night, Imperial Guard are a big-ass hamer, where as Space Marines are more like a needle.

brandon noble wrote:send the miniature tanks on a suicide run. Like a conversation I had one night, Imperial Guard are a big-ass hamer, where as Space Marines are more like a needle.

hence my Sig.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No what... Lets let the Inquisition show us more.

brandon noble wrote:They don't even need a weopon.

Yes, but they DO need a weapon.

Melissia wrote:

brandon noble wrote:They don't even need a weopon.

Yes, but they DO need a weapon.

Well, to be fair, while Space Marines still need weapons, that doesn't change the fact that the Guard don't have any weopons at all! Now whether or not the Guard need weopons is another matter, which we have yet to address.

Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

Alpharius wrote:Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

But there's no drama without friction! No plot without conflict!

Face it, man... coexistence is boring.

SaintHazard wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

But there's no drama without friction! No plot without conflict!

Face it, man... coexistence is boring.

so how to the tau do it?

raptor8 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

But there's no drama without friction! No plot without conflict!

Face it, man... coexistence is boring.

so how to the tau do it?

Mind control. Also, having a common enemy (everyone else in the entire universe) helps.

Actually I think the Tau only manage to do it through plot armor and the fact that they're such a tiny nation to begin with.

Actually, to be serious, it's been hinted that the Tau are so devoted to the Greater Good through mind control. The Vespids are only able to communicate with the Tau through their communion helms, which are strongly implied in the codex to be some form of brainwashing device (as soon as the Vespid started using them, they basically accepted their place in the Tau Empire with exactly no resistance).

And Farsight is said to have left the Empire due to having learned some sinister secret about the Ethereals. That's as much as is written in the codex, but one of the most popular theories is that he learned about said mind control and/or brainwashing being used not just on the Vespid, but on most of the Tau themselves.

It fits, and it explains everything, from the Greater Good to the Ethereals being the ruling caste, to the way the Ethereals ended the Mont'au, and so on.

SaintHazard wrote:Actually, to be serious, it's been hinted that the Tau are so devoted to the Greater Good through mind control. The Vespids are only able to communicate with the Tau through their communion helms, which are strongly implied in the codex to be some form of brainwashing device (as soon as the Vespid started using them, they basically accepted their place in the Tau Empire with exactly no resistance).

And Farsight is said to have left the Empire due to having learned some sinister secret about the Ethereals. That's as much as is written in the codex, but one of the most popular theories is that he learned about said mind control and/or brainwashing being used not just on the Vespid, but on most of the Tau themselves.

It fits, and it explains everything, from the Greater Good to the Ethereals being the ruling caste, to the way the Ethereals ended the Mont'au, and so on.

makes sense

Man. Can't 40k have just ONE good guy?

SaintHazard wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

But there's no drama without friction! No plot without conflict!

Face it, man... coexistence is boring.

I completely agree with Alpharius (as I often do...), however, coexistence doesn't work on the internet. On the internet, you (self) are always right.

Cantus wrote:Man. Can't 40k have just ONE good guy?

Pick a side. That side is good because you picked it.

Cantus wrote:Man. Can't 40k have just ONE good guy?

Unacceptable.

See, they brought the Tau in to be that good guy.

Everyone hated them as good guys.

So they made Farsight grimdark as hell, brought in Shadowsun, gave the Tau dictatorial overtones, and made them infinitely more awesome.

Good guys have no place in the 40k universe.

Well yeah. But I like my way better...

Oh, believe you me, the =][= happens to be one of my favorite factions in the 40k universe.

I just don't like the way they're represented on the tabletop.

When we get 1) a decent =][= codex that's seperate from the SoB and GK or 2) a Deathwatch codex, I will start playing =][= in a second.

Yep. And to get along with spelling errors and not be stuck-up jerks.

Vaktathi wrote:

Tonytiger89 wrote:For me, hands down the marines if we are talking about the fluffy marines, not the toned down miniature marines. Don't get me wrong I still love playing with the Miniature marines, but I find the fluffy marines portrayed in various books to sound much more beefy and tough.

That also depends on what fluff. The 5E Space Marine codex? 3E codex Space Marines? Imperial Armour space marines? Brothers of the Snake god level invincible super titan mega gigantor space marines? Horus Heresy space marines?

They are all very different from one another. Sometimes Space Marines are just elite, ridiculously well equipped guardsmen, sometimes they are unstoppable plot armored mega mary sues, and everything in between.

I can see your point, I was just referring to how in the books I seem to get the impression marines are much more tough than there Tabletop equivalent. But I assume this is because if the miniatures were like this you would have the best part of 5 marines in a 1500 point game, which doesn't seem like much fun.

No, it's more like the "fluff" you're reading gives Marines an oil tanker sized load of plot armor.

However, other fluff is quite different. For example, Commissar Ciaphas Cain killed two Khornate Berzerkers in one book, and neither battle actually lasted very long. The second one was injured perhaps, but he still got away from both of them without a scratch on him, parrying their weapons and toying with them until he could get in a situation with which they could be finished off. And if I'm not mistaken the Gaunt's Ghosts books have them killing chaos Marines regularly...

Melissia wrote:No, it's more like the "fluff" you're reading gives Marines an oil tanker sized load of plot armor.

However, other fluff is quite different. For example, Commissar Ciaphas Cain killed two Khornate Berzerkers in one book, and neither battle actually lasted very long. The second one was injured perhaps, but he still got away from both of them without a scratch on him, parrying their weapons and toying with them until he could get in a situation with which they could be finished off. And if I'm not mistaken the Gaunt's Ghosts books have them killing chaos Marines regularly...

Okay, dudette, the moment you say "Ciaphas Cain," you are never again allowed to use the words "plot armor" as a criticism.

I'm forced to agree. Condemning marines for plot armor and then citing Caiphas Cain as a counter-example seems a bit incongruous.

SaintHazard wrote:Actually, to be serious, it's been hinted that the Tau are so devoted to the Greater Good through mind control. The Vespids are only able to communicate with the Tau through their communion helms, which are strongly implied in the codex to be some form of brainwashing device (as soon as the Vespid started using them, they basically accepted their place in the Tau Empire with exactly no resistance).

And Farsight is said to have left the Empire due to having learned some sinister secret about the Ethereals. That's as much as is written in the codex, but one of the most popular theories is that he learned about said mind control and/or brainwashing being used not just on the Vespid, but on most of the Tau themselves.

It fits, and it explains everything, from the Greater Good to the Ethereals being the ruling caste, to the way the Ethereals ended the Mont'au, and so on.

This is further expanded upon in Xenology, the dissected Ethereal is discovered to have a special organ that secretes extremely powerful pheromone (or something similar) that are postulated to be their source of influence over their subjects.

Actually that was kinda the point... without their plot armor, Marines are tough but beatable by any other force in 40k. I used the Ciaphas Cain book as an example because it's the first to spring to mind where they were not given so much plot armor (And yes, I know Cain himself wears an ocean of it).

Melissia wrote:Actually that was kinda the point... without their plot armor, Marines are tough but beatable by any other force in 40k. I used the Ciaphas Cain book as an example because it's the first to spring to mind where they were not given so much plot armor (And yes, I know Cain himself wears an ocean of it).

So you're suggesting that their training, genetic modifications, power armour, equipment, resources and ability counts for very little?

Just Dave wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually that was kinda the point... without their plot armor, Marines are tough but beatable by any other force in 40k. I used the Ciaphas Cain book as an example because it's the first to spring to mind where they were not given so much plot armor (And yes, I know Cain himself wears an ocean of it).

So you're suggesting that their training, genetic modifications, power armour, equipment, resources and ability counts for very little?

It would be more accurate to say (and this is me disagreeing with Melissia, not you) that those factors count for very little on the tabletop, but are properly represented in the fluff.

Cain beating up a few Chaos Marines is nothing more than an extension of Cain's own plot armor.

Melissia, of course the protagonist is going to be able to beat anything thrown at him/her.

If the protagonist is a Space Marine, then it's going to be a Space Marine that's getting the plot armor.

If the protagonist is an Imperial Commissar (especially an incompetent and cowardly one) then it's going to be an Imperial Commissar getting the plot armor.

Oh yeah, I recognise the traits and frequency of plot armour, however I disagree with Melissia's suggestion that A) that is all Space Marines have and B) it is more common in Space Marines.
I've read my share of Imperial Guard books to know that plot armour effects every protagonist, as Saint has said. The only real place I see repeated diversion from plot armour is in the Horus Heresy series.

That's because during the Horus Heresy, if the character has a name, there's about a 50% chance he's dead by the end of the book.

Some people just really don't like Space Marines, and that is OK.

It does tend to lead threads into strange spirals of denial, outrage and foot stomping, and that's a bit less OK.

When the post that kicks the whole thing off is:

"What do you think is better, Imperial Guard or Space Marines ?"

well, we were bound for trouble from the start.

Questions like these are inherently quite silly, as the background states that BOTH are necessary and most times function quite well in tandem.

In fact, when they don't, usually it is because one of the two involved have in fact turned traitor.

SaintHazard wrote:It would be more accurate to say (and this is me disagreeing with Melissia, not you) that those factors count for very little on the tabletop, but are properly represented in the fluff.

They ARE represented on the fluff. A lot of Marine players seem to ignore how big a difference the MEQ statline actually makes and whine about how fragile their units are.

They aren't.

Hell, just having S4/T4/I4 instead of GEQ (like Scouts versus Veterans) means you're far more likely to survive the assault, or even win it, against anything. And that doesn't even take into consideration power armor (I play both Guard and Sisters, the difference between power armor and flak armor-- or even carapace armor-- is huge), WS, BS, ATSKNF, leadership, free grenades (Both kinds), free bolt pistols, etc.

You mean the tabletop, not the fluff, but yes, your point is solid. So they're not ignored on the tabletop, granted, but I think Space Marines are even bigger, stronger, and harder to kill in fluff.

In fluff we have examples of Space Marines living through such things as:

Getting shot through the heart (they have two).
Getting an arm ripped clean off.
Getting hit in the head with a lasgun blast (helmeted, but still messed Uriel up in Nightbringer to the point where he had to remove said helmet - but then kept on going).
Getting pelted with heavy stubber fire.
Surviving exploding Rhinos.

I could go on.

The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Melissia wrote:No, it's more like the "fluff" you're reading gives Marines an oil tanker sized load of plot armor.

However, other fluff is quite different. For example, Commissar Ciaphas Cain killed two Khornate Berzerkers in one book, and neither battle actually lasted very long. The second one was injured perhaps, but he still got away from both of them without a scratch on him, parrying their weapons and toying with them until he could get in a situation with which they could be finished off. And if I'm not mistaken the Gaunt's Ghosts books have them killing chaos Marines regularly...

Anytime the Ghosts go up against Chaos Marines, they're at a full regiment strength and the Chaos Marines are generally seen in forces of one or two CSM, with the rarity of more than that seeing the Ghosts with armored support. We're not talking about one or two men cutting their way through legions of CSM--we're talking about full on fireteams of well-trained Guardsmen, heavily armed, going up against one target.

Pretty sure that's representative of the fluff of the Astartes.

SaintHazard wrote:You mean the tabletop, not the fluff, but yes, your point is solid. So they're not ignored on the tabletop, granted, but I think Space Marines are even bigger, stronger, and harder to kill in fluff.

And I disagree. If they get hit by a meltagun or krak missile, they're dead. If a single Marine gets concentrated on by a group of Guardsmen with lasguns, he's dead. The problem is Marine fluff varies widely from source to source, and quite a few sources make sure that Marines are never put in any situation where they would feasibly die anyway-- yeah, they get shot through the heart, but they still live cause they have two. That's feasible, it's the point of having redundant organs in the first place. But how often do you see, in books, Marines getting hit with a battlecannon shot, pounded on by real Guard artillery, or facing off a group of heavily armed Nobz with power weapons and power klawz ready to tear them apart? Pretty much never, because that wouldn't fit the story very often. And so, many stories pad the Marines and put them in "Safe but cool" situations, so that they can make them seem better than they really are. Besides, a "casualty" in 40k isn't necessarily a death, just a Marine who was temporarily taken out of the action.

And I don't buy the more ludicrous over-the-top fluff, it's stupid and exists for nothing more than to spank off their favorite faction.

Melissia wrote:yeah, they get shot through the heart, but they still live cause they have two. That's feasible, it's the point of having redundant organs in the first place.

Actually, this is a bit off - and I know it's not usually a good idea to apply real-world science to the 40k universe, but regardless of how many hearts you have, if one of them is disabled (or worse, perforated) you're most likely going to go into shock and die shortly thereafter. The idea of giving a Space Marine two hearts so that one of them can pick up the slack if the other stops working is kind of ridiculous.

Although, I believe you said at one point you're a biology major, so you'd already know that.

In any case, my point was not that they have redundant organs but that they can survive having one stop working.

I was going off of the idea of believability rather than pure science. Seeing as so many people seemed to hate the idea of applying science

You're forgetting the fact that when Astartes take massive damage to the point of going into shock, their bodies start glanding massive amounts of adrenaline to counteract it for 5-6 minutes.

Kanluwen wrote:You're forgetting the fact that when Astartes take massive damage to the point of going into shock, their bodies start glanding massive amounts of adrenaline to counteract it for 5-6 minutes.

That's true, but Marines who get shot through the heart don't just go for 5-6 minutes.

I wish I could remember where that happened, I want to say Nightbringer but I'm not sure that's right. The Marine who got shot kept on going until he got killed proper like. More than just a few minutes.

I'm sure the second heart is quite helpful for staying up after the first one gets shot.

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Not really. I challenge you to find a piece of fluff where a half-sized platoon routinely owns terminator squads.

Terminus wrote:I'm sure the second heart is quite helpful for staying up after the first one gets shot.

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Not really. I challenge you to find a piece of fluff where a half-sized platoon routinely owns terminator squads.

I could point you to about a dozen pieces of fluff where Guardsmen don't crap their pants and run when you so much as spit at them.

Well marines. if you got to warhammer 40k WIKI you can see why. It has all the things the marines have. Like 3 lungs, a gland that makes them spit acid if they are trapped. jsut go.

SaintHazard wrote:

Terminus wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Not really. I challenge you to find a piece of fluff where a half-sized platoon routinely owns terminator squads.

I could point you to about a dozen pieces of fluff where Guardsmen don't crap their pants and run when you so much as spit at them.

I meant that Guard actually tend to be tougher on the table than in the fluff (except characters, although honestly my Straken comes close sometimes). Half-sized platoons CAN routinely own terminator squads.

The way i think about guard is, when I am rolling to hit with my BS 3 guardsmen, I think about how They are Fighting Things that are so much more powerful then them.

For example, a guard squad rolls to hit shooting las weapons in Rapid fire range. a lucky roll of 11 hit. The shots that "Missed" Could have gone little wide, Or (main Idea) Glassed off the targets Thick armor.
The "Hits" Hit in a week spot, Say it was shot before, or is some form of joint.
The Rolling to wound is seeing if that lucky/skilled shot went in or just Was spread out.
The Target's Armor save is "Resisting" the roll to wound part. If they pass it fazed/wasn't felt. If they fail their armor save the shot entered into the flesh.

At the end of battle a guard army could have "Missed" half of its shots on the roll, but the shots didn't fly over the ork mobs heads it just smacked into tough ork hides.

The Moral of the Story is, Guard have low stats because the "Standard" or "Normal" guy is so much stronger.

Its this Difference that makes me love the little guys so much more.

Imperial Guard REP.

Terminus wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Terminus wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Not really. I challenge you to find a piece of fluff where a half-sized platoon routinely owns terminator squads.

I could point you to about a dozen pieces of fluff where Guardsmen don't crap their pants and run when you so much as spit at them.

I meant that Guard actually tend to be tougher on the table than in the fluff (except characters, although honestly my Straken comes close sometimes). Half-sized platoons CAN routinely own terminator squads.

I know what you're saying. I'm disagreeing.

By saying that in fluff, the Guard don't crap their pants and run when they see my Terminators cresting yonder hill.

On the tabletop, they most certainly do. Unless they have a Commissar, in which case they try to run, their Sergeant gets executed, and then they run away.

CaragaraPDF wrote:The way i think about guard is, when I am rolling to hit with my BS 3 guardsmen, I think about how They are Fighting Things that are so much more powerful then them.

For example, a guard squad rolls to hit shooting las weapons in Rapid fire range. a lucky roll of 11 hit. The shots that "Missed" Could have gone little wide, Or (main Idea) Glassed off the targets Thick armor.
The "Hits" Hit in a week spot, Say it was shot before, or is some form of joint.
The Rolling to wound is seeing if that lucky/skilled shot went in or just Was spread out.
The Target's Armor save is "Resisting" the roll to wound part. If they pass it fazed/wasn't felt. If they fail their armor save the shot entered into the flesh.

At the end of battle a guard army could have "Missed" half of its shots on the roll, but the shots didn't fly over the ork mobs heads it just smacked into tough ork hides.

The Moral of the Story is, Guard have low stats because the "Standard" or "Normal" guy is so much stronger.

Its this Difference that makes me love the little guys so much more.

Imperial Guard REP.

Except that the Guard are generally crap shots, so "missing" is not "hitting and not penetrating."

Logically, here's how it breaks down:

Hitting is whether or not your shot hit the target or went wide.

Wounding is whether that was a shot the target can just shrug off, or if it actually did some damage.

Armor is whether the armor stopped it from doing the damage it would have done.

So, basically, if Guardsmen with BS (which stands for Ballistic Skill, not Ballistic Luck) 3 fire 50 shots and hit 25, it's because they suck at shooting. Better than modern militaries, even so! 50% accuracy is outstanding! But crap compared to the rest of the 40k universe? Yes.

Game wise and strangely enough the IG are better and IMHO severely OP but hey what do you do? In one hand I understand they are so strong because they are the main bulk of the Imperiums troops but on the other hand there is just so much they should be able to hold up against.

SaintHazard wrote:

CaragaraPDF wrote:The way i think about guard is, when I am rolling to hit with my BS 3 guardsmen, I think about how They are Fighting Things that are so much more powerful then them.

For example, a guard squad rolls to hit shooting las weapons in Rapid fire range. a lucky roll of 11 hit. The shots that "Missed" Could have gone little wide, Or (main Idea) Glassed off the targets Thick armor.
The "Hits" Hit in a week spot, Say it was shot before, or is some form of joint.
The Rolling to wound is seeing if that lucky/skilled shot went in or just Was spread out.
The Target's Armor save is "Resisting" the roll to wound part. If they pass it fazed/wasn't felt. If they fail their armor save the shot entered into the flesh.

At the end of battle a guard army could have "Missed" half of its shots on the roll, but the shots didn't fly over the ork mobs heads it just smacked into tough ork hides.

The Moral of the Story is, Guard have low stats because the "Standard" or "Normal" guy is so much stronger.

Its this Difference that makes me love the little guys so much more.

Imperial Guard REP.

Except that the Guard are generally crap shots, so "missing" is not "hitting and not penetrating."

Logically, here's how it breaks down:

Hitting is whether or not your shot hit the target or went wide.

Wounding is whether that was a shot the target can just shrug off, or if it actually did some damage.

Armor is whether the armor stopped it from doing the damage it would have done.

So, basically, if Guardsmen with BS (which stands for Ballistic Skill, not Ballistic Luck) 3 fire 50 shots and hit 25, it's because they suck at shooting. Better than modern militaries, even so! 50% accuracy is outstanding! But crap compared to the rest of the 40k universe? Yes.

They who do Guardsmen Like the Mordians have the same BS as Guardsmen that are more like the Catachans? Or the Dieprian Mountain Men? Also take into account they are shooting lasers. They will go straight, but you would have to be trained to know how to shoot (Witch is Basic training) and Where to shoot (Advanced training). I say where to shoot is more advanced training (higher BS) Not as a Mordian Guardsman would know this. This is Part of the reason Vets hit better.
Example:
A Normal Guardsman Shoots a CSM in the chest. He hit. The CSM docent even not a hit. The guardsman's shot missed.
A veteran Guardsman Shoots a CSH. He aims for the neck joint. He Hits it. The shot was On target and hits.

In Both Cases the shots hit. But the Standard Guardsman did not know where the weak spots were.

CaragaraPDF wrote:They who do Guardsmen Like the Mordians have the same BS as Guardsmen that are more like the Catachans? Or the Dieprian Mountain Men? Also take into account they are shooting lasers. They will go straight, but you would have to be trained to know how to shoot (Witch is Basic training) and Where to shoot (Advanced training). I say where to shoot is more advanced training (higher BS) Not as a Mordian Guardsman would know this. This is Part of the reason Vets hit better.
Example:
A Normal Guardsman Shoots a CSM in the chest. He hit. The CSM docent even not a hit. The guardsman's shot missed.
A veteran Guardsman Shoots a CSH. He aims for the neck joint. He Hits it. The shot was On target and hits.

In Both Cases the shots hit. But the Standard Guardsman did not know where the weak spots were.

It doesn't matter where the Guardsman is from. Guardsman are, generally speaking, crap shooters. This is because they are simply normal humans. Warlike humans, raised in a culture that idolizes warmakers, yes, but humans nonetheless.

Now because we're not working with a 100-point scale here, we're working with a 6-point scale, this is represented as a 50% chance to hit. They're not as good as Space Marines, who have a 66% chance to hit, but they're not as bad as Orks, who only have a 33% chance to hit.

Fluff: Space Marines dominate the puny Guardsmen. No questions asked.

Game: Guardsmen codex allows twenty Guardsmen and probably a few heavy weapons (i.e. Lascannons, Autocannons, and Heavy Bolters) for the same cost as a single squad of space marines.

I still stand by my statement that the Imperial Guard codex is ridiculously overpowered and that Space Marines are not adequetly represented in-game.

1337m45747r0y wrote:Game: Guardsmen codex allows twenty Guardsmen and probably a few heavy weapons (i.e. Lascannons, Autocannons, and Heavy Bolters) for the same cost as a single squad of space marines.

30, actually.

I still stand by my statement that the Imperial Guard codex is ridiculously overpowered and that Space Marines are not adequetly represented in-game.

No, you just don't want to take responsibility for your own shortcomings.

As a Marine player, I disagree. Marines are very well represented in-game. They can carry heavy weapons on their shoulders and their armor protects them 66% of the time.

The IG codex isn't overpowered, you may not have a solid grasp on how to play Marines to win. Which may actually be a good thing, because playing Marines to win can be annoying (I'm looking at you, BA bandwagon jumpers).

The only thing that people on this thread keep repeating is ''There are 1000000 guard for every Marine and because of that Marines don't have a chance.''

Do you really think the Marines would drive up in front of the Guardsmen and start having a shooting contest?

Ediin wrote:The only thing that people on this thread keep repeating is ''There are 1000000 guard for every Marine and because of that Marines don't have a chance.''

Do you really think the Marines would drive up in front of the Guardsmen and start having a shooting contest?

I don't know about your Marines, but my Marines have balls of steel. They'd absolutely do exactly that. And probably survive. And if they didn't then at least they died looking unbelievably manly and awesome.

Also, yes, that is exactly the kind of tactics GW would have Space Marines use.


See, GW thinks Marines are tactical retards.

Melissia wrote:Also, yes, that is exactly the kind of tactics GW would have Space Marines use.


See, GW thinks Marines are tactical retards.

Except that the Codex Astartes lays out a detailed combined arms strategy to be used by a Space Marine battle company... however, nine times out of ten, you are correct, in that the fluff (even among Codex Marine chapters) has them blatantly disregarding the instructions of the Codex and making dumbass heroic last stands, and things of the sort.

Then again, how often do we see actual combined arms tactics used in war movies? The truth is that combined arms tactics work, and any tactic that works makes for a boring action movie/game/novel/etc.

Nobody wants to see those Deltas beautifully execute a textbook sweep and clear and emerge without so much as a bloody nose among them, but that's more often than not how it happens in real life.

The same applies to 40k. If we saw the Codex being adhered to, it'd make for some pretty boring one-sided battles.

Heh, do you honestly think the writers of Black Library have a copy of Codex Astartes before them whenever they write? They just write what they think makes a good story (often failing). That's why I don't usually consider Black Library to be purely canon. Even I think Marines are smarter than Black Library does.

OT The Guard, for we are the first and last line of defence of mankind.

Game wise IMHO....

From my experience, a 500 point IG army will almost always lose to a 500 point SM army.

Now, I can do work on my brothers 1,000 point Blood Angels, with my Steel Legion, and once you get into bigger games the IG almost always have the advantage in manpower.

The Space Marines are a much more "Beginner" friendly army, but once you know how to use them they own.

IG are a little bit tougher but, again once you learn how to play them, they can do work.


But I think I'll stick to Chaos ^^

IG ALL THE WAY!! Any shumck can fight when he's an eight foot tall walking tank, but a real man goes to war with three things: his lasgun in his hands, his comrades at his sides, and his faith in the Emperor in his heart!!

revackey: By that reasoning, IG are better because anything over 1750 points IG is probably gonna win.

Melissia wrote:revackey: By that reasoning, IG are better because anything over 1750 points IG is probably gonna win.

I'm not convinced of that.

A good player with an 1850 point tournament IG list and a good player with an 1850 point tournament Marines list are, in my opinion, pretty well matched.

Anyone who loses to Guard just doesn't know how to counter Guard.

I don't buy that "X codex is stronger than Y codex" when these assertions are being made by players who may not be playing their codex to its fullest. Math is math and statistics are statistics. Most 5th edition codices are more or less balanced against one another. It all comes down to the player.

I like parts , and dislike parts from each army. I have to agree IG might be better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:

Melissia wrote:revackey: By that reasoning, IG are better because anything over 1750 points IG is probably gonna win.

I'm not convinced of that.

A good player with an 1850 point tournament IG list and a good player with an 1850 point tournament Marines list are, in my opinion, pretty well matched.

Anyone who loses to Guard just doesn't know how to counter Guard.

I don't buy that "X codex is stronger than Y codex" when these assertions are being made by players who may not be playing their codex to its fullest. Math is math and statistics are statistics. Most 5th edition codices are more or less balanced against one another. It all comes down to the player.

He has a very good point.

SaintHazard wrote:[snip]

Then take it up with revackey As I said, I was using his reasoning.

I like Guard because they're human, none of this superhuman nonsense. You should know by now that I judge things based off of the fluff, not the game.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:[snip]

Then take it up with revackey As I said, I was using his reasoning.

I like Guard because they're human, none of this superhuman nonsense. You should know by now that I judge things based off of the fluff, not the game.

I kind of indirectly did, I guess, as he agreed that my point is solid.

But anyway.

I need to change my final answer.

Tabletop? Marines.
One-on-one fight? Obviously Marines, see my first post in this thread.
Fluff? IG.

Marines got some excellent fluff, but aren't nearly as grimdark as masses of humans, torn from their homes, given a suit of cardboard and a laser pointer, and told to go kill some ravenous space-bugs that happen to come in endless swarms and eat their own dead to make more of them. That's pretty awesome.

It doesn't help that I watched Starship Troopers again the other day. God I love that movie.

SaintHazard wrote:Nobody wants to see those Deltas beautifully execute a textbook sweep and clear and emerge without so much as a bloody nose among them, but that's more often than not how it happens in real life.

I, for one, would fething LOVE to see that. And then after the sweep, the screen can explode Michael Bay style and ninjas start tossing kamehamehas all over the place. It's like having your combined arms tactical cake, and eating it too!

If any of you has read Fifteen Hours then you'll see the courage some guardsmen have.

You play Vampire Counts, right?

Please let dead threads RIP. Thanks!