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Post by: MadNes
But more importantly, how huge is the model that goes on this monstrosity
It should be noted, the model being dwarfed on the left is a human sized 28 mil fig.
Rumor has it, the giant fig will be a playable Satan model.
The whole model will be unveiled at gencon... Just 1 week away.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Ex Illis, right? That peasant looks about their style.
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Post by: MadNes
Yup....
Nothing says basing like a fallen soul trying to pull itself out of "the pit" using the entrails of a bisected angel as a rope..... At least that's what it looks like to me.
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Post by: Chowderhead
That base is... Mildly disturbing. It would go great with a WHFB diorama.
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Post by: Alpharius
Whoa!
Now that is something!
Can't wait to see what goes on that base...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Interesting base, but how come the details are so "soft" and blobby?
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Post by: mordith
Could be mud... or the ground is soaked in the blood of the unbelievers!
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Post by: warboss
JohnHwangDD wrote:Interesting base, but how come the details are so "soft" and blobby?
it reminds me of those craters GW came out with last year that they outsourced to some cheap chinese manufacturer and then ended up allowing people to return.
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Post by: MadNes
No way dude. Check out how crisp the details are on things like the angels wings and shoulder pads.
If I had to venture a guess. I would guess the blobby parts look that way because its supposed to be a pool of etherial goop.
I'm picturing Neo when he is awoken in the real world. All that slimmy gooly stuff on him.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Chocolate coated cookie thing is what I'm thinking
That poor sod hasn't much hope armed only with a pitch fork. Or is he just holding it for a demon while he's nipped to the loo?
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Post by: terribletrygon
It looks like the component from a toy set (abiet a slightly disturbing one). I do not like this casting method's results. It looks as good as cheap vacuum moulding.
It could have been a brilliant base, but it was unfortunately held back from reaching its full potential.
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Post by: warpcrafter
Not impressed, with the base or the poorly done peasant either.
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Post by: Gymnogyps
Have to agree it looks soft, but that might just be the lighting. Would love to see it painted.
Wait, do all the dudes in the pit have three fingers? And all their faces are in the muck... Interesting... it really makes me want to know what they look like.
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Post by: A Black Ram
Almost all of the fallen souls appear to be the same sculpt, almost cookie-cutted out , if you will.
But, I do have to say, a daemon prince wouldn't look that bad on it..
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Post by: MadNes
Gymnogyps wrote: Would love to see it painted.
I will post a pic of the model from gencon. Mind you guys, this is just the base, what goes on top is the million dollar question.
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Post by: Daggermaw
Yeah i dunno. I agree with some of the above posters. It looks soft and vacuumed formed. Hopefully whatever goes on that base isn't.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
I think the softness may be the result of a very poor job using 3d modelling techniques, I've seen similar results via that process before.
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Post by: warboss
MadNes wrote:No way dude. Check out how crisp the details are on things like the angels wings and shoulder pads.
If I had to venture a guess. I would guess the blobby parts look that way because its supposed to be a pool of etherial goop.
I'm picturing Neo when he is awoken in the real world. All that slimmy gooly stuff on him.
i just figured out why it looks so slimey and it has to do with the blocks in rows. at first, i had no clue why they were there and then i realized that they were clay bricks being dried out in the sun. you dump a ton of water onto clay earth and then mold the bricks to later dry out (at least that's how discovery/history channel explained it years ago). so.. it is supposed to be blobby... but i think it just looks cheap like the toy soldier sets you buy at dollar stores. there is more detail around the angel wings and a few other parts but my overall opinion is that the look detracts from it.
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Post by: Kurgash
Kind of meh as far as the base goes, not a ton of detail aside the souls clambering outward but I do want to see what exactly fits on that base.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Poor sculpt. Blobby, cheap moulding.
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Post by: grizgrin
That's a great concept that has just been totally let down by execution.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Horrible in every possible way! Waste of plastic.
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Post by: Hyenajoe
MadNes wrote:No way dude. Check out how crisp the details are on things like the angels wings and shoulder pads.
Crisp? Well I'm probably not watching the same pic then! 
Even if the concept in interesting, the realisation really is of poor quality.
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Post by: Sarrazon
Take a look at the rest of Ex Illis' line, I was actually interested in them until I looked seriously at their models. Almost uni-pose, with a stunning lack of detail. I'm not surprised by how this looks at all.
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Post by: MadNes
I guess everyone has different tastes, but this looks like high-end plastic to me.
http://ex-illis.com/wiki/index.php/File:Monster-Base2.jpg
Note the skulls in between the souls / bodies, whatever. Probly hard to that with a cheap vacume mold.
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Post by: Richard Coeur de Lion
Sarrazon wrote:Take a look at the rest of Ex Illis' line, I was actually interested in them until I looked seriously at their models. Almost uni-pose, with a stunning lack of detail. I'm not surprised by how this looks at all.
Uni-pose, lack of detail? Are you sure?
The miniatures have plenty of postures and bits available:
http://ex-illis.com/wikien/images/7/7a/Manual_serjants.jpg
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Richard Coeur de Lion wrote:Sarrazon wrote:Take a look at the rest of Ex Illis' line, I was actually interested in them until I looked seriously at their models. Almost uni-pose, with a stunning lack of detail.
Uni-pose, lack of detail? Are you sure?
He said *almost* uni-pose, and that's true for a lot of their stuff. Here's what an Ex Illis army looks like:  I see mostly: - mono-pose cavalry L, - mono-pose spears L, - mono-pose crossbows L, - mono-pose spears R, - mono-pose bows R, - mono-pose giants R, - mono-pose spears B, - mono-pose cavalry R, But, wait: - tri-pose imps R - hoo boy! And, of course: - monopose characters -- that's what we were waiting for!  image taken from http://www.livingdice.com/2429/ex-illis-beta-kit-assembled/ - it's definitely mono-pose plastics. I will not be buying any Ex Illis product for the foreseeable future. OTOH, Malifaux and Infinity? Yeah, I can see myself getting into them.
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Post by: Richard Coeur de Lion
JohnHwangDD wrote:
He said *almost* uni-pose, and that's true for a lot of their stuff.
Here's what an Ex Illis army looks like.
False!
That's what this starter set looks like, that's it! This is one picture. That's the way the owner assembled it.
You can actually assemble those guys with alternative postures and bits! So be careful before stating something when you actually don't know what you are talking about.
Don't like the starter set? You can buy from the newer units then.
You take one picture out of the internet, without ever having seen the product for real, and you claim that's all there is to it...
Inform yourself before attacking a product.
That's the starter set of a new company that you are showing. I think it's a pretty good deal, 54 minis for about 60$.
Care to compare to the first starter set GW ever produced to make it a fairer comparison?
Look at the quality of the new units Ex illis are releasing now, and appreciate the progress they have made in little less than one year.
Or do you just prefer bashing for the fun of bashing a product that you have obviously never seen with your own eyes?
You don't want to buy Ex illis products? Fine! But don't flame it in this unfair fashion for the rest of the players... That's just plain hate.
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Post by: skrulnik
Its not bashing to state that they are limited in pose.
Or that it is a style that is disliked.
Ex Illis interested me. Until I saw them on the shelf.
They looked lower quality than the pieces for my Descent game.
The pre-paints I saw were on par with Mage Knight.
Now if I read the rules and they interested me, I might be likely to proxy an army. But I don't think I would ever use their current line.
Unfortunately, every new game has to compete with the sculpts of GW, PP, or Wargames Foundry(historicals).
If they don't match up, you cannot lean on the "new company" excuse, as there are so many options out there.
That is Malifaux and Infinity's strengths. The minis are great already. The rules can catch up later, since they have the figures down already.
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Post by: Richard Coeur de Lion
skrulnik wrote:Its not bashing to state that they are limited in pose.
It is bashing when you generalize, by saying all the Ex illis product line is limited in pose and lacks details, and that's what an Ex illis army always looks like. While actually it's only this starter set that does.
The new units have a lot of details, bits and poses. The new Archangels are looking fantastic, I've seen them so at least I can give an educated opinion.
They are new units coming and they are all following this diversity and quality trend.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Richard Coeur de Lion wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:
He said *almost* uni-pose, and that's true for a lot of their stuff.
Here's what an Ex Illis army looks like.
False! That's what a starter set looks like, that's it! Don't like the starter set? You can buy from the newer units then. Inform yourself before attacking a product. Care to compare to the first starter set GW ever produced to make it a fairer comparison? Look at the quality of the new units Ex illis are releasing now, and appreciate the progress they have made in little less than one year. Or do you just prefer bashing for the fun of bashing a product that you have obviously never seen with your own eyes? You don't want to buy Ex illis products? Fine! But don't flame it in this unfair fashion for the rest of the players... That's just plain hate.
No, that's *exactly* what Ex Illis army looks like. No, I don't like the Ex Illis starter set, and I won't buy it. The proportions don't work for me, nor the 1990s prevalance of mono-pose models. The other stuff isn't particularly compelling, so no thanks. I did inform myself, by browsing Google Images for "Ex Illis", and quite frankly, their product is NOT IMPRESSIVE. It's extremely blah. Boring historicals with some angel wings tacked on. I thought teenage girls stopped wearing pretend wings about 3 years ago. Also, I'm not attacking anything. I'm giving my opinion, and I'm entitled to do so. If Ex Illis isn't up to the GW / Privateer / Malifaux / Infinity standards, that isn't an attack - that's simply how I see it. Was this Ex Illis starter set released back in the 1990s? No? Then we legitmately compare it to a *current* GW starter set - BfM, BfSP, or current Island of Blood, because presumably, it's competing for whatever dollars I currently have in my pocket right *now*. If Ex Illis produces 1990s-grade product in 2010, then their product is more than 20 years out of date. If their newer stuff is better, bully for them. That said, Malifaux is 1 year old, and their product is simply excellent. And Quite frankly, it appears one would do far better to play Ex Illis with Bretonnian models, tacking on Pegasus Knight wings where needed. And again, I'm not bashing them. I am saying that they don't impress me at all, based on what I've seen of their products. If you are at all representative of the Ex Illis player base, it'll be a cold day in hell before I buy any of their stuff. Again, I'm not flaming their product. My post was factual. Somebody claimed they weren't mono-pose, and the facts showed otherwise. Hell, I'm not even flaming you. Point of fact for you to learn: - disliking something isn't flaming, attacking, or bashing Enjoy your game. May it see the same success as its predecssor minis games like VOID, VOR, Starship Troopers, AT-43, Confrontation, Ragnarok, and Battlefield Evolution.
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Post by: MadNes
For some mini's are more important for other the rules are more important. There is a third category where the importance is equal etc.
That isn't the point. Many starter sets are comprised of less customizable minis than the normal boxed sets that flesh out the range. Bastions mistake was releasing the starter with no additional troops. Their entire model line is judged based on the starter, fair or not.
Quality - the models are the same quality as your more popular plastic providers. Having assembled several starters myself I can attest to that.
I think many are turned off by the stylistic choice. This is not heroic scale. No rippling muscles, no giant banners and intricate armour.
Bastion went with a more "realistic" look. "truer scale" if you will.
Nobody looked at the billmen in braveheart and said man those guys look awesome. They are just guys with pikes. Well we got the grints in the starter set. Now comes the candy. What the original post was about.
The big new shinny.
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Post by: fire4effekt
The base to me looks like its meant to be flocked/sanded. It seems like a fine sculpt when that is kept in mind.
Also is anyone else having their text appear verrrrrrry slowly across the quick reply box.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Oh, yeah, I'm done here. Don't bother replying to me.
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Post by: tchuck
It's true the starter has one pose units (especially for cavalry). There other products are very custumisable, easy to do kit bashing and similar in quality to GW. Unfortunatly for Ex-Illis, the first thing most people see is the starter.
As for this monster base:
the earth is very soft and with the lighting makes it look bad. Painted, it will look a lot different and more realistic, more so will flock. The second picture looks way better and would have gotten different comments if it were the first shown.
For a one piece base, it's going to be very nice once painted and probably look awesome with the, I guess, demon that goes on top of it. I can't wait to see picture of it from Gencon.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Well if you want to compare to others... Lets just say GW, PP, Infinity, Sodapop, Mercs, Wyrd, Alkemy, Freebooter, Red box games to name the first few that crossed my mind are vastly superior to anything Exillis showened to us miniwise so far.
To me the minis sell the brand so... subpar miniatures or concept or style, like the ones seen at Exillis so far, do stop me from even entering this company on my favorite list.
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Post by: Lord-Ironfist UNA
... Island of Blood is all completely monoposed as well, except for maybe the Rat Ogres. One starter is from a multi-million dollar company and costs a staggering $100, the other is from a startup company and costs $60.
Aren't the minis also all plastic?
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Post by: chaos0xomega
It looks "high end" because thats a picture of a 3d render. I KNEW IT (see my previous post)!!!! I'm just that good!
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Post by: JOHIRA
I agree, it's a terribly executed base. The big giveaway for me is the damned souls' heads. They aren't just looking down for no good reason, most of them are basically a collumn of plastic that goes straight down into the base. While yes, making them actual head shapes would be hard (impossible?) on a single base, this ruins the effect. It would have been easy to just mould the heads as separate pieces, and then we would have been able to make them actually look where they're going.
It honestly looks like whoever designed this was just trying to cut corners to make the job easy, which is a crazy decision for what is obviously supposed to be a centerpiece kit.
I also don't care for the angel entrails, but that's more conceptual than execution. In most mythologies angels are not proper corporeal living beings, so they have no need for a lower digestive track. They do no need to eat, so they shouldn't need to poop, so they don't need intestines.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Most people don't want to spend that much time on a base. The model itself is meant to be the focal attraction, the base is just there to accentuate it. Putting that much detail on the base would draw the eye away from where you want it to be.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Lots of negative energy here. I'm also unimpressed with Ex Illis but hardly feel any need to attack them publicly. Some of their stuff is pretty cool.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-518-7012_Ex%20Illis.html
I'd put these guys over the current crop of Empire or Brettonian knights for example.
The base might be a test sculpt, or a 3-d print. I'd hold back from trying to guess how sharp the finished product is, they obviously can do crisp details.
Looking forward to seeing what they have in store.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Lord-Ironfist UNA wrote:... Island of Blood is all completely monoposed as well, except for maybe the Rat Ogres. One starter is from a multi-million dollar company and costs a staggering $100, the other is from a startup company and costs $60.
Aren't the minis also all plastic?
Starting up companies is no excuse for bad concepts and baddly sculpted miniatures sorry... the examples I gave on my first post here, most of the companies/ ranges I exemplified are new companies.
And Kid Kyoto please dont see divergent yet inocent opinions as negative energy.
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Post by: MadNes
Wow, do you really think they are THAT bad or are you just trying to make a point?
Sure you may not like them, but they are not BAD.
I know it seems like I'm biased and have an agenda, but this game won me over all on its own.
Last year I went to gencon looking for two things, Malifaux and Arcane Legions, but exillis really stole the show. (for me)
Other than Wyrd, (which is just another level of dopeness) bastion makes my favorite models on the market. You may not like them, but some of us do.
Also please note, it is easier to devote more attention to each individual model for skirmish games that will only have a few models on the board. Ex-illis is an army scale game. You should be playing it with over 100 models per side. Imo games like that look better on the table when the models are uniform. Gives it a cleaner more regimented look.
But thats just my taste, if that look is not for you , its not for you.
As far as netativity goes - if you look over the whole thread, you will see that some of the posts seem intended to deter readers from giving the game a shot. There are plenty of. Games I don't play / don't like. I don't feel compelled to go on threads about those games and incessantly expound on why they suck.
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Post by: warboss
MadNes wrote:As far as netativity goes - if you look over the whole thread, you will see that some of the posts seem intended to deter readers from giving the game a shot. There are plenty of. Games I don't play / don't like. I don't feel compelled to go on threads about those games and incessantly expound on why they suck.
which is a completely valid point of discussion on a non-company forum. getting a critique about minis that's negative is part of doing business in the modern age; not everyone is going to like any product and just because the review is negative doesn't mean it does not deserve to get posted on an independent forum. lets leave the gratuitous flattery and stifling of dissenting opinion for the official company boards, m'kay? as long as the person isn't flaming or overly rude (and negative does not automatically equate to rude), it's appropriate. that being said, i like the minis but definitely not the big base.
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Post by: NAVARRO
MadNes wrote:Wow, do you really think they are THAT bad or are you just trying to make a point?
Sure you may not like them, but they are not BAD..
As much as I want any new miniature company outhere to have the best of luck with their business, Im afraid to say I was quite shocked with the miniatures lack of quality... ( anf this base really is the lowest in plastic quality I have seen for some time).
Looking at design presentation and some really nice artwork and the fact they are plastic kits I was especting so much more.
Looks to me they cutted corners on the last thing they should have and that is the sculpts... Not only for me but for many hobby guys the miniature quality alone sells a range and a game... In exillis case it does the oposite for me and leaves me dead cold regarding this company future.
MadNes wrote:
I know it seems like I'm biased and have an agenda, but this game won me over all on its own.
Last year I went to gencon looking for two things, Malifaux and Arcane Legions, but exillis really stole the show. (for me)
Other than Wyrd, (which is just another level of dopeness) bastion makes my favorite models on the market. You may not like them, but some of us do.
Also please note, it is easier to devote more attention to each individual model for skirmish games that will only have a few models on the board. Ex-illis is an army scale game. You should be playing it with over 100 models per side. Imo games like that look better on the table when the models are uniform. Gives it a cleaner more regimented look.
But thats just my taste, if that look is not for you , its not for you.
As far as netativity goes - if you look over the whole thread, you will see that some of the posts seem intended to deter readers from giving the game a shot. There are plenty of. Games I don't play / don't like. I don't feel compelled to go on threads about those games and incessantly expound on why they suck.
In my life I learned very soon that antagonic opinions are as much positive and just as usefull ( if not more) than just praising comments mate. Not sniping exillis or anyother company because I have no agenda apart the never ending search for the best sculpts in 28mm world as a passionated collector. 
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Post by: Ketara
I just flagged that out of all the people defending this company, at least 3 have under 5 posts here, and some have all their posts in this thread.
My god, it's like the foam wars all over again. What are the bets that the owner of the company is one of them?
(awaits inevitable rage from aforementioned people in his direction for daring to mention such a thing)
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Post by: Le Grognard
Ex Illis, welcome to Dakka.
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Post by: MadNes
Ketara wrote: What are the bets that the owner of the company is one of them?
I wish, then I wouldn't be a mailroom guy 
@ warboss - I'm all for dissenting opinion. I've said over and over, if you try something and its not your cup of tea fine. I've (me personally) never showed the game to someone and have them tell meit wasn't fun or looked like crap. All I'm saying is if dissenting opinion is good, so is variety.
Lastly, and this is all I will say about the topic - some people use the anonimity of the internet, and the banner of dissenting opinion, to turn off the common courtesy and politeness filters. Give it another look, there are inflamatory posts on both sides of the argument. I think people can / should be able to express theor opinion, dissenting or agreeing , without being rude or crqss.
Look back over the thread, some arguments where poorly worded and offensive.
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Post by: Ketara
I didn't mean you MadNes, with 40 posts, you're probably genuine.
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Post by: metallifan
I think they look fine. The AOBR set was far more monopose than this stuff, and it seems to get plenty of praise. No one seems to care that all the Orks and Space Marines come in one pose with only a few weapon or head swaps to break them up.
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Post by: BrookM
Wait, this game requires the use of software to play?
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Post by: MadNes
BrookM wrote:Wait, this game requires the use of software to play?
No, the algorythms and formulas to resolve actions are all available to players.... But playing that way is more like work
Game designers mentioned it used to take them 8 hours to play a skirmish scale game using excel spreadsheets to resolve the wieghted random draw. Ex is a army scale game.
You CAN play that way... But the software is so much better, and free.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Ketara wrote:I just flagged that out of all the people defending this company, at least 3 have under 5 posts here, and some have all their posts in this thread.
My god, it's like the foam wars all over again. What are the bets that the owner of the company is one of them?
(awaits inevitable rage from aforementioned people in his direction for daring to mention such a thing)
Its just a coincidence for sure 
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Post by: BrookM
MadNes wrote:BrookM wrote:Wait, this game requires the use of software to play?
No, the algorythms and formulas to resolve actions are all available to players.... But playing that way is more like work
Game designers mentioned it used to take them 8 hours to play a skirmish scale game using excel spreadsheets to resolve the wieghted random draw. Ex is a army scale game.
You CAN play that way... But the software is so much better, and free.
Sounds pretty broken to me then.
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Post by: MadNes
Just a different way to play a wargame. Its a really foreign concept to alot of peeps. But variety is the spice of life. Different is good, not broken.
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Post by: AlexHolker
BrookM wrote:Sounds pretty broken to me then.
No, it's not. Or at least, not based on what has been posted here. Just because playing it wrong makes the game take an obnoxiously long time does not make it broken. I imagine Civilisation 4 would take even longer if you tried to do all the calculations yourself, but that's why you let the computer do all the number crunching. In 2010, when every nerd and his dog owns a laptop, a hybrid game like this might actually be feasible.
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Post by: Klawz
Oh I remember people talking about this game. Sounded back then like the models were just decoration, and that it was possible to play the game soley on the computer.
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Post by: Jihallah
BrookM wrote:Sounds pretty broken to me then.
what a post.
To be honest, i find the mini's ok. In my opinion, most of the stuff i get from GW looks better, and even though i don't play it, I have checked out Warmachines Mini's and think those are of a higher quality too. But this isn't saying I think the sculpts are bad- If i were interested enough in playing the game, I would certainly buy those mini's. They look good, but there is much room for improvement. I would like to check out their range in 6 months or so.
As far as the game being played with laptop and mini's... I'm very much on the fence here. On the one hand, everyman and his dog do have a laptop it seems these days, but like you said, civ 4 would take longer to do if you did all the calculations yourself. But I do kind of feel like since the computer is doing the calculations anyway, why not have it display the board and the mini's as graphics? Seems like putting a turn based strategy game from digital to half and half, and it would be easier to just have the game on a computer. But it is an interesting idea, I do admit I know practically nothing about the game, but this thread has sparked my interest, so I'll read up about it tomorrow night at work 
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Post by: AlexHolker
Jihallah wrote:But I do kind of feel like since the computer is doing the calculations anyway, why not have it display the board and the mini's as graphics?
If this was a Games Workshop game I'd say because people like building, converting and painting a physical army, even if they don't care to memorise the rules for combat resolution.
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Post by: MadNes
http://ex-illis.com/wikien
This is the best place to look.
All the rules, all the fluff, all the art.
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Post by: augustus5
AlexHolker wrote:BrookM wrote:Sounds pretty broken to me then.
No, it's not. Or at least, not based on what has been posted here. Just because playing it wrong makes the game take an obnoxiously long time does not make it broken. I imagine Civilisation 4 would take even longer if you tried to do all the calculations yourself, but that's why you let the computer do all the number crunching. In 2010, when every nerd and his dog owns a laptop, a hybrid game like this might actually be feasible.
Civilization 4 never tried to sell itself as a miniature wargame. If I'm already dragging around a bag full of minis to play a game, I'd prefer to not have to also bring my laptop case as well.
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Post by: BrookM
augustus5 wrote:AlexHolker wrote:BrookM wrote:Sounds pretty broken to me then.
No, it's not. Or at least, not based on what has been posted here. Just because playing it wrong makes the game take an obnoxiously long time does not make it broken. I imagine Civilisation 4 would take even longer if you tried to do all the calculations yourself, but that's why you let the computer do all the number crunching. In 2010, when every nerd and his dog owns a laptop, a hybrid game like this might actually be feasible.
Civilization 4 never tried to sell itself as a miniature wargame. If I'm already dragging around a bag full of minis to play a game, I'd prefer to not have to also bring my laptop case as well.
Exactly. When I play a game I'd prefer to just use minis and dice, not lug along a laptop or power up the PC.
And a thousand pardons for the horrible post, another thousand for any horrible offence that caused your facepalm.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
With the software and how it works, this almost seems to be aimed a little more towards the D&D crowd. For years, DMs have been running games and battles doing the calcs and dice roles behind the scenes on a laptop while having the actual battle mat and models out for the other players to use, so it may be a fairly natural transition for them. For me, meh...I like rolling my dice and not having to go back to a computer screen.
As for the models, I'm a sucker for the whole armored archangel thing so they get a +1 there. I like most of the cavalry models and the monks, but the rest are pretty bleh to me.
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Post by: BrookM
The mention of the calculators and spreads reminds me of Inquisitor. Oh boy. 
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Post by: MadNes
A lot of people have asked why?
Why not make it pure mini's game?
Why not make it a computer game?
Why can't I (insert low level game mechanic here)
The more relevant question is, can a game be made that merges a computers processing power, with the immersiveness of a table top war game. More importantly, can this game deliver a fun experience while also providing depth of strategy and several tactical answer. My informed opinion ( informed because I've played the game and exposed several other players to the game who subsequently enjoyed it) is yes. At the end of the day, isn't that the most important criteri by which to judge a game.
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Post by: BrookM
Personally, as IT'er I'd like to distance myself from those infernal machines when I play table top games.
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Post by: MadNes
BrookM wrote:Personally, as IT'er I'd like to distance myself from those infernal machines when I play table top games.
I can honor that standpoint. At the same time, you could probly concede that it is POSIBLE bastion may have made a dope game for people who don't share that bias.
Ex-illis will be around for a while. If you ever change your mind about processors in gaming and give it a shot, you may be pleasantly surprised at how cool the game experience actually is.
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Post by: metallifan
I can see the pros and cons to both systems - traditional and tech-assisted.
On one side, Rulebooks are just so reliable. They don't need power, they won't crap out for no reason when you need them, rules will always say the same thing and be in the same place for each person using it, and they aren't as fragile as a laptop. Plus, if you spill something on a rulebook (And let's face it - EVERYONE knows a "I can't stop knocking stuff over!" gamer), a couple towels and some time in front of a fan and it's good as new.
On the other hand, Laptops are faster - you can usually type a keyword or page number into most .pdf programs and it'll bring up what you're looking for. It isn't much bigger than a BRB or BGB rulebook, you can have music while you game, it has a calc for points and whatnots, and you can look at pr0n while you play. Hey, don't look at me like I'm the only one that thought of that while reading this thread
I guess Exillis would be better off catering to both sides - If players had the choice of hardcover rulebooks and referance sheets -or- bringing their laptop, then I think a lot of concerns would've been nullified.
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Post by: MadNes
You are a wild man... Porn while gaming. Thats... Thats.... Hmmmm anyway.
You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.
There are just too many things to calculate on a turn by turn basis to calculate manually AND keep the game fun. Unless math Is your porn, manual calculation is NOT the way to go.
A small example. After you take an action and before the next turn can be take ( in other words, in between action)
you would have to calculate the action point accumulation for every active unit, calculate the fatigue loss of the activated unit, determin via ACP which unit activates next, calculate all passive effects, such as the marrenes refreshing pressence or the soffrances' dark pressence. Determine all vallid actions for the acailable units, determine new hp, fatigue etc for all units based on buff.and debuff spells etc
Qnd thats just between taking turns. Not fun to me.
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Post by: augustus5
Maelstrom808 wrote:With the software and how it works, this almost seems to be aimed a little more towards the D&D crowd. For years, DMs have been running games and battles doing the calcs and dice roles behind the scenes on a laptop while having the actual battle mat and models out for the other players to use, so it may be a fairly natural transition for them. For me, meh...I like rolling my dice and not having to go back to a computer screen.
As for the models, I'm a sucker for the whole armored archangel thing so they get a +1 there. I like most of the cavalry models and the monks, but the rest are pretty bleh to me.
I've been DMing games for over twenty years and have never brought a laptop into play. D&D just isn't complex enough to need even a calculator.
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Post by: grizgrin
MadNes wrote:...You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.
...
Evidently you underestimate the number of mensa members and potential members on this site, or you overestimate the difficulty level of the cals. I doubt it's the calc's.
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Post by: cadbren
I think that base is brilliant and given that some demon will be on it then shouldn't the blobby look to it indicate that it could be a river of lava.
It seems to me that the base should be painted to show the fires of hell and the souls of the damned trying to get out. They are the souls of the damned trying to claw their way out, that's why they have no faces, that's why they have three fingers - they're not humans and they don't really have true physical forms.
Good point about angels and entrails though maybe these angels do eat, the rest of the comments here seem churlish.
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Post by: MadNes
grizgrin wrote:MadNes wrote:...You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.
...
Evidently you underestimate the number of mensa members and potential members on this site, or you overestimate the difficulty level of the cals. I doubt it's the calc's.
I think you over estimate how many people want to turn their gaming experience into a excersize in math, genious or not. But if you're keen to try it go head. All the info is on the wiki, go to town.
As far as the souks go - I was wondering upon having a sefond look, are the. Souls trying to escape the pit, or being sucked into it like water down a drain? Automatically Appended Next Post: cadbren wrote:
Good point about angels and entrails though maybe these angels do eat,.
They do indeed. They take a really different spin on Angels and Demons in this game. I'm yet to understand how celestial beings like Angels can die at all. But Bastion is usually pretty consistent with their fluff, so I'm sure when all the inner workings are revealed it will make sense. For those of you interested, here is a link to the Bio of Lucifer, a playable character in the game. It sheds quite a bit of light on how God, Angels, Fallen Angels, Demons and humans are all intertwined.
Please be advised, the wiki is still in beta mode. There will be gramatical and spelling errors... Get over it and enjoy the story
http://ex-illis.com/wikien/Lucifer
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Post by: grizgrin
MadNes wrote:grizgrin wrote:MadNes wrote:...You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.
...
Evidently you underestimate the number of mensa members and potential members on this site, or you overestimate the difficulty level of the cals. I doubt it's the calc's.
I think you over estimate how many people want to turn their gaming experience into a excersize in math, genious or not. But if you're keen to try it go head. All the info is on the wiki, go to town.
Evidently you totally missed the point of my post. I made NO claims as to who might or might not want to crunch the numbers by hand. I merely question your mensa assesment.
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Post by: JOHIRA
MadNes wrote:As far as the souks go - I was wondering upon having a sefond look, are the. Souls trying to escape the pit, or being sucked into it like water down a drain?
I'm not sure they're doing either. The last time I saw someone in that pose, it was moments after they had boasted about how much tequila they could drink.
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Post by: NAVARRO
JOHIRA wrote:MadNes wrote:As far as the souks go - I was wondering upon having a sefond look, are the. Souls trying to escape the pit, or being sucked into it like water down a drain?
I'm not sure they're doing either. The last time I saw someone in that pose, it was moments after they had boasted about how much tequila they could drink.
And then for some reason melted.
Just picked up similar thread on other Popular forum... and a couple intervenients were the same and the content was almost a mirror of what happened at dakka... OP posting this bases is better than sliced bread then regulars telling base was NOT good and then some strange defensive comments.
Its all good folks but a bit of word of advice to the people making this Exlillis net campaign... Instead of trying to convince/ confront the general opinion why not actually read the comments and try to improve sculpts/casts? Would be a win win situation.
I kind of feel disapointed when a new company starts up with the nose so high up... Unless you are a big shark on the pool that can aford to piss potential clients you really should just listen and be abit more friendly... Look at rackham as a example of what you should not do please.
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Post by: MadNes
Not sure how you want me to improve stuff... i don't make it. I'm just a fan.
And as far as I can tell, non of my post have been rude or directed at someone personally. I'm making points and rebuttles.... You know, expressing a dissenting opinion.
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Post by: Lord-Ironfist UNA
I'm not affiliated in anyway with Ex Illis either, I just don't feel that it is justified to rip into a company using evidence that is obviously false. To be honest I've only looked at their stuff a couple times. Richard Coeur de Lion is the only one associated with Ex Illis and his posts weren't all that aggressive, he only rebutted the "mono-pose" "lacking detail" arguments. I'm sure everyone has their opinions, but in most cases it's best not to get too heated about them (me included).
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Post by: NAVARRO
Lord-Ironfist UNA wrote:. Richard Coeur de Lion is the only one associated with Ex Illis and his posts weren't all that aggressive, he only rebutted the "mono-pose" "lacking detail" arguments. I'm sure everyone has their opinions, but in most cases it's best not to get too heated about them (me included).
Specially if you want to introduce a new game and company... I'd say if associated people or diehard fans lack the capacity of delivering a enjoyable and unagressive Introduction to their new games then its better to just let the product speak for itself
Believe it or not I'm trying to help.
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Post by: BrookM
MadNes wrote:BrookM wrote:Personally, as IT'er I'd like to distance myself from those infernal machines when I play table top games.
I can honor that standpoint. At the same time, you could probly concede that it is POSIBLE bastion may have made a dope game for people who don't share that bias.
Ex-illis will be around for a while. If you ever change your mind about processors in gaming and give it a shot, you may be pleasantly surprised at how cool the game experience actually is.
Having seen the demo on the site I can't help but wonder why bother with minis when the program does everything for you, except moving the minis. It's one step away from something like Heroes of Might and Magic and the likes. You just move about and that's it, all the other interactive stuff has been taken out already.
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Post by: MadNes
The demo is a BAD representation of actual gameplay. Look, as war gamer (ex-illis is not the ONLY game I play, its my favorite game) I would not enjoy a game that plays me. I need a game that gives me real meaningful tactical options, real decisions to make. Ex gives me that in spades. As an added bonus, it removes the aspects of wargaming I don't like much.
Could list them, but I doubt you want to read them.
@ Navarro - I was under the impression you and I were having a good gentlemen's debate. I'm unaware of an inflamatory statement I've made. You should also know, Dakka is infamous for being one of the "flamiest" boards.
I'm sure you can understand how it can be... Challenging to maintain a cool head when your getting dogpiled. Thus far, I've been doing OK.
Anyway - here is my opinion - the base is a good starting place for a what could be a great model, that can make an awesome addition to a fantastic game.
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Post by: Alpharius
The monster that goes on this base could be so mind-blowing as to render all of this teeth gnashing so much yelling in the wind!
Let's hope so!
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Post by: Maelstrom808
augustus5 wrote:Maelstrom808 wrote:With the software and how it works, this almost seems to be aimed a little more towards the D&D crowd. For years, DMs have been running games and battles doing the calcs and dice roles behind the scenes on a laptop while having the actual battle mat and models out for the other players to use, so it may be a fairly natural transition for them. For me, meh...I like rolling my dice and not having to go back to a computer screen.
As for the models, I'm a sucker for the whole armored archangel thing so they get a +1 there. I like most of the cavalry models and the monks, but the rest are pretty bleh to me.
I've been DMing games for over twenty years and have never brought a laptop into play. D&D just isn't complex enough to need even a calculator.
I agree. Never used one when I played but I've had several DMs that have used one. A couple ran story games where all the stats and hp and such were completely hidden from players. Those were the only style of games where I think it'd be really useful to help keep track of everyone and not get too bogged down in datasheets.
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Post by: MadNes
@ alpharious - we will find out thursday. I will post pics from my phone @ the con.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
MadNes wrote: You would have to be SUPER patient or a mensa member to play this game without the software.
The Mensa requirement is pretty low, only top 1% IQ, so, speaking for myself, I could easily do it.
But that presumes that the underlying game values would actually be worth my effort to invest in such rote memorization. So far, the models and themes that I've seen aren't interesting enough to justify such investment.
Also, speaking with my game designer hat on, the reliance on large tables generally means that the designers don't know what they're doing, so have to rely on arbitrary complexity and quantity as a smokescreen for elegance and quality. Clear, simple mechanics are the true hallmark of excellence in game design, not throwing in the kitchen sink and then using a computer as a crutch to muddle through a pile that the designer wasn't smart enough to pare back to the essentials.
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Post by: warboss
lol, i was going to start defending the company since i actually like their minis until i read an interesting bit of the website. so... to recap, a brand spankin' new poster comes onto the site to angrily refute criticisms of the company's upcoming product while at the same time calling people like us a "handful" of "elitist" "nerds".
is that really the best way to advertise your product? to come onto a site and try to push around the people you're calling elitist nerds on your company's page? who exactly do you think is going to buy your products? who do you think attend the gaming convention (gencon) that you're going to in order to advertise your products? cheerleaders and mixed martial arts fighters? lol... you've just lost ANY hope of me purchasing your products.
http://ex-illis.com/wikien/What_is_Ex_illis
1
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Post by: Neconilis
Whoop Dee Do is all I have to say about that.
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Post by: poipo32
Reading this thread makes me feel like Ex Illis is a game elitist nerds trying to push onto others. Apart from being not so multipose that models look ok. But since thisthread is about the horrendous base on the first let's bash that! Seriuously what is it supposed to be? A pile of goo mixed with a town with dead angels and faceless souls(?) crawling in the ground?
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
Nice find, warboss. +1 internet for the first people to achieve the following:
Cheat in Ex Illis.
Find a cartoony looking Ex Illis model (oh, the imps... I guess I win).
Start a 'non-nerds should especially apply' Ex Illis club (or any wargame for that matter).
Win a game of Ex Illis without actually thinking, even for a second. This also applies to any other... anything.
Accept evolution as your personal lord and savior! This isn't one of them, I just wanted to say that...
NOW... this thread is about the base, right? I agree with those who say it looks cheaply manufactured, but one cannot blame an up-and-coming for the initial quality of their miniatures when this is being introduced first and foremost as a game system. The imagination behind the sculpt is quite clear, and with better materials and more experience I'm sure the company and their sculptors could come up with much better. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for this business model to get very far without additional sales in the form of... oh, say, miniatures. Gotta start somewhere
In a very short space of time I have seen this game being pushed very hard, and frankly the majority of what I have heard in response is that the manufacturers are ignoring people's genuine criticism of the entire package, be it the rules, minatures, support, or disturbing metallic aftertaste.
If the product is good, it will sell itself, and good advertising/competitive pricing can only help.
If the product is average, it will need more focused advertising, and in my opinion, should not be aimed at 'friends and family [rather] than keeping it elitist'. If it is very low cost/competitive, and as easy to pull out and play as a board game, then it should be marketed as such. One positive part of the game design I can see is that if the game is very simple but there are additional rules for levelling (ie it is not required but a fun addition for more involved players), it will potentially appeal to a wider audience. This is clearly what the manufacturer wants. GW know they sell an involved hobby, although their shopfront business model seems to infer the opposite.
I think that the makers of this game desperately need to begin to address the criticism they are receiving, and they must address it humbly. Obviously it is their game, but if you can't make the main audience feel 'passionate' about it without giving a little away, then it's time to give something away.
Any associated with the Ex Illis game who wants to communicate with their intended market in this forum should study the history of an operation known as 'Battle Foam,' and their interactions on this site. Welcome to the wargaming community. It's hell.
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Post by: BrookM
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Any associated with the Ex Illis game who wants to communicate with their intended market in this forum should study the history of an operation known as 'Battle Foam,' and their interactions on this site. Welcome to the wargaming community. It's hell.
Agreed, Romeo is an excellent example of listening to and enabling the community. I don't know what that means but IT power phrases sound fitting. 
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Post by: grizgrin
Damn, what I want to know is where they got the proportions for Satan. Judging by warboss' find up there, they seem to have them. THAT must have been a hell of a measuring session!
Lol, just having a bit of fun there, nothign to take seriously. On Topic, I keep looking at that base and it keeps looking the same to me. Really interesting ideas, execution just didnt follow through. For some reason, the face-down souls just puts me in mind of Inferno. Did Dante do a torment related to that? Seems just out-there enough to be.....
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Post by: JOHIRA
The messianic fervor of Ex Illis's fan base aside, I think there is some place for software-assisted miniature-wargames. I wouldn't want to play something that required a laptop though. That's just too much.
But I could see some kind of game with a "basic ruleset" that can be played with nothing but dice and an "advanced ruleset" that can be played over devices like iPhones and Android phones. You load an armylist into your phone and then when you are within range of another player, the software in each phone links them all together into one game. To keep the interface simple they wouldn't keep track of exact miniature positions, you just tick off bands of movement for each unit each turn. For attacks you just touch your unit's attack option icon and then it would automatically pop up a list of your enemy's units as targets. The fun in stuff like this wouldn't be so much the difficult math as it would be the ability to hide surprises in units that the game would guarantee were legally paid for, but you wouldn't need to prove by showing your opponent your army roster.
But even more fun I think would be that the software could produce turn-by-turn logs of battles that could be uploaded to a website and turned into a kind of miniatures gamertag. It could even suggest you take a picture of units that defy the odds and do something heroic, giving your valiant warriors the chance to be featured on their site.
But I wouldn't even want to bother with a system that required me to bring in extra hardware just to play the game. Better to use what I've already got there.
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Post by: NAVARRO
MadNes wrote:
@ Navarro - I was under the impression you and I were having a good gentlemen's debate. I'm unaware of an inflamatory statement I've made. You should also know, Dakka is infamous for being one of the "flamiest" boards.
I'm sure you can understand how it can be... Challenging to maintain a cool head when your getting dogpiled. Thus far, I've been doing OK.
.
Mate I was not refering to you and me, I have a very very thick skin and besides my comments were more towards the general feeling that you and some Exillis folks were just being over defensive to the point of giving a bad taste to whats suposed to be a new enjoyable wargame.
Personally and in general if theres a new company on the pool and trying to do something diferent Im all for them although I believe exillis are just not in the same channel with the potential clients...
Warboss post really sums it up... guys at exillis DO NEED to stop posting crap on the net, its not helping their cause... If they want to appeal to the familly thats just fine but do they need to trash like 99% of their core market? the nerds?
As for the game debate I love videogames and I love table top wargammes, both do have diferent appeals and "hardware" and personally I rather have a videogame session separated from tabletop games, its diferent tastes.
I believe its a great alternative for those wanting to mix experiences and I hope theres lots of them
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
What scale is Ex Illis?
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Post by: sonofruss
28 mm as far as I have seen the base in question is for a large demon model representing the devil
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
BrookM wrote:Arctik_Firangi wrote:Any associated with the Ex Illis game who wants to communicate with their intended market in this forum should study the history of an operation known as 'Battle Foam,' and their interactions on this site. Welcome to the wargaming community. It's hell.
Agreed, Romeo is an excellent example of listening to and enabling the community. I don't know what that means but IT power phrases sound fitting.
I have to say personally that I found Romeo... well, nothing more than a good businessman. I don't know him outside of his interactions on this site and others with regards to his products. I had a minor disagreement with him once that resulted in my not-purchasing-it-after-all... but I'm the sort of customer that retailers hate. Overall he handled all manner of criticism very well and came up with a great product, and regardless of my experience I'm proud to have been around to see him get his brand up.
As I said before, so far I've seen Ex Illis cop nothing but a fair storm of gak, and that's exactly what Romeo got at first. On the other hand, pushing a new game system is a completely different thing to selling a modular accessory for an established hobby genre. I'd like to see... I'd love to see Ex Illis do well, but not if they're haplessly flogging their gear with thin promises that don't quite seem to add up. A game system is a little more personal than custom-cut foam.
Slightly irrelevant here, but I saw an iPad poster today that said it was 'magical and revolutionary'. We know it isn't magical, and an oversized smartphone that doesn't make calls is original but not revolutionary. Advertisers... scum of the earth. But we know why they do it. We wouldn't have food if we didn't have dirt. We wouldn't have any variety if GW were the only scum allowed to sell us their junk.
Ex Illis doesn't appeal to me in the slightest visually, but I am going to give the game system a crack...
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Post by: MadNes
warboss wrote:lol, i was going to start defending the company since i actually like their minis until i read an interesting bit of the website. so... to recap, a brand spankin' new poster comes onto the site to angrily refute criticisms of the company's upcoming product while at the same time calling people like us a "handful" of "elitist" "nerds".
http://ex-illis.com/wikien/What_is_Ex_illis
Are we not? 
Cut these guys some slack. Yes, they need to hire a proof reader / writer for whom english is the native language. These are french canadian guys. I've mentioned the problem to them but hey, they do what they can, and frankly, I prefer they spend their resources releasing more product.
What theyMEANT to say is, you COULD get into the game at a very basic level and the interface is friendly enough that you could mash buttons with your kids and play that way OR if yo choose, the game has enough depth, that you could play a competarive game against an elitist nerd. Someone who could take the time and peel the ex-illis onion to get down to the very advanced gameplay.
If you take offence to the statement, perhaps the issue is you feel you MAY be elitist. Personally I know I'm not. I also don't take offense to being a nerd. I've been worse things in my lifetime. I actually wear that title proudly.
P.s. Good to have you back on the thread john, your posts really make me smile. Have a great Day gentlemen! 3 days till gencon 
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Post by: grizgrin
Nerd? Absolutley.
Elitist? No, buddy.
I dont know who they think they are pandering to, but they missed the mark in throwing that one out there. I rather suspect it will turn off a few folks just beyond me.
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Post by: warboss
MadNes wrote:
Cut these guys some slack. Yes, they need to hire a proof reader / writer for whom english is the native language. These are french canadian guys. I've mentioned the problem to them but hey, they do what they can, and frankly, I prefer they spend their resources releasing more product.
*snip*
If you take offence to the statement, perhaps the issue is you feel you MAY be elitist. Personally I know I'm not. I also don't take offense to being a nerd. I've been worse things in my lifetime. I actually wear that title proudly.
lol, they purposely try to insult their userbase and i'm at fault for taking offense? calling a group a handful of elitist nerds is NEVER a term of endearment. doing so and then expecting their money is ridiculous. this is not a slip of the tongue (or finger in this case) from a bunch of french canadians who incidentally are forced to take english classes for pretty much their entire school career and are from a country that is officially bilingual. dp9 is in the same geographic/linguistic boat and yet they don't seem to try and flame their userbase openly.
listen, i get it that you're at minimum a superfan of the game. after a quick google search (i only bothered to look at 2 pages worth of results from the last 3 days) on ex illis and base, i've found that you've started almost a dozen identical threads on this company's big base in one day on different message boards and news sites (here, warseer, boardgamegeek, TGN, miniwargaming, etc) usually with accounts that are less than a month old. if you're not being paid by the company, then they need to start doing so because you're really trying to push their products on a netwide campaign. initially here you said the pic was a "leak" but that wasn't true and you've since edited it out of the first post (it's hard to be a leak when the company emails the pic as part of news press releases the same day). on sites where the discussion goes sour and people comment on the blobbyness of the base, richard de leur (or whatever his name is) swoops in to "save" the company's honor (he's done this aggressively on at least two other boards i found in those two pages of searches). if he is an official employee of the company, you need to tell him to stop spending his time insulting his userbase both in forums and the company's wiki page and spend that time possibly addressing the concerns of those he insults.
either way, i'm done with the company's products before starting. i was interested in them after seeing pics for the first time in this thread (hadn't seen the figs before this thread) but i don't need another love/hate relationship with a gaming company. (damn you gw with your awesome fluff/figs but exhorbitant prices and mediocre rules!!) if anyone asks me about the company, i'll simply state that i'm not part of their desired demographic being, you know, an elitist nerd and all. either way, have fun at gencon. i hope the company improves their attitute before meeting the biggest collected bunch of elitist gaming nerds ever.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
On the other hand, if they're French-Canadian I can forgive them for coming off as arrogant in translation.
Perhaps they chose to design this game system out of spite for a proportion of the gaming community as they see it... we can only hope that they are not such elitists!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I really think you're all blowing a throwaway bit of copy on a website way out of proportion.
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Post by: filbert
H.B.M.C. wrote:I really think you're all blowing a throwaway bit of copy on a website way out of proportion.
Pretty much true of most News / Rumours threads really.....
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Post by: Alpharius
warboss wrote:
lol, they purposely try to insult their userbase and i'm at fault for taking offense? calling a group a handful of elitist nerds is NEVER a term of endearment. doing so and then expecting their money is ridiculous. this is not a slip of the tongue (or finger in this case) from a bunch of french canadians who incidentally are forced to take english classes for pretty much their entire school career and are from a country that is officially bilingual.
Who do they think they are - GW, issuing an earnings report?!?
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Post by: NAVARRO
Alpharius wrote:warboss wrote:
lol, they purposely try to insult their userbase and i'm at fault for taking offense? calling a group a handful of elitist nerds is NEVER a term of endearment. doing so and then expecting their money is ridiculous. this is not a slip of the tongue (or finger in this case) from a bunch of french canadians who incidentally are forced to take english classes for pretty much their entire school career and are from a country that is officially bilingual.
Who do they think they are - GW, issuing an earnings report?!?
GW has that luxury, PP also not long ago said STFU to a user ... Rackham also thinked they had it and ... who's exillis again? To fragille to handle pissing against the wind I believe
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Post by: warboss
Alpharius wrote:warboss wrote:
lol, they purposely try to insult their userbase and i'm at fault for taking offense? calling a group a handful of elitist nerds is NEVER a term of endearment. doing so and then expecting their money is ridiculous. this is not a slip of the tongue (or finger in this case) from a bunch of french canadians who incidentally are forced to take english classes for pretty much their entire school career and are from a country that is officially bilingual.
Who do they think they are - GW, issuing an earnings report?!?
absolutely not. gw only insults gamers' wallets and intelligence; ex illis just simply chooses to cut out the middle man and insult the gamer directly!
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Post by: MadNes
Elitest nerds does not = wargamers They are a subset if wargamers. Pretending these people dont exist is crazy. They didn't call YOU an elitist nerd... If the shoe fits wear it, if it doesn't, then why take offense.
2) they should pay me - lord have mercy I'm taking a ton of flak. Friday was the worst. Yes, I am super fan. I can play ex with my old man and have fun, or play a wargaming vet at the gamestore in a brain burner. Whats wrong with accesibility.
3 richie rich is a grown man. I don't have the right to tell him or anyone else what to post and where. I control what I say and thats it.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
I'm sorry, but if you have to lump people into categories to set yourself aside from them, then you're an elitist. I understand that this is ironic. Hopefully you can appreciate that and have a laugh.
Is this thread done yet?
Your posts on Dakka have been in line with every other 'testimonial' we've seen from people pretending to have nothing to do with the game they're shamelessly plugging. It would be much easier to discuss the game with you if you came clean... we've all seen it on Dakka before, and reasonable people really do appreciate the honesty.
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Post by: MadNes
As far as the leak thing. When I started those threads it was a leak. I found it while poking around on the wiki. I thought it was SO cool ( in my obvious lack of knowledge to what cool is) that I wanted to share it with others. I don't know many fantasy games that have something this big, Thats pretty dope to me.
As far as the edits - I post using my phond. I make a lot of typing errors. Don't read too far into that.
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Post by: poipo32
MadNes wrote:Cut these guys some slack. Yes, they need to hire a proof reader / writer for whom english is the native language. These are french canadian guys.
There is plenty of English speaking persons in Quebec, they probably hired someone who speaks English as their first language. If they did and chose the words carefully shame on them, if they didn't and use their knowledge of English thinking what they said was not a tid bit offensive shame on them for not knowing english better after studying it at least 11 years.
I think this thread is far beyond salvation.
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Post by: Alpharius
OK guys - I suppose we've all had our fun in here, but let's remember to stick to the rules of Dakka Dakka, especially the NO personal attacks thing.
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Post by: MadNes
Send me a pm, I'll give ya my work number in Chicago. I'm one of the mailroom guys for a law firm
Wish I did work for the game company though.
I promote ex-illis because I think its that good of a game and I'm quite aware of how hard it is to break into this market.
I want them to do well for selfish reasons I want them to make more stuff
As far as why I post so much here, I enjoy the game, as well as a good TOPICAL debate. Plus its fun to test my wit against the mensa material on here. You boyz are sharp, but a bit set in your ways.
P.s. As long as there is a question asked or a debatable point, I'm going to respond. That's just my personality. Sorry.
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Post by: NAVARRO
MadNes wrote: I don't know many fantasy games that have something this big, Thats pretty dope to me.
.
Gw has some, pp also has some big terrain and theres tons of companies that develop just bases or large terrain pieces.
THe problem with a specific base for one miniature is that on tabletop games it gets tiring to look at same base on same mini over and over again...
FOr example check mumak base for lotr... done some years ago and so much sharper than this 2010 exillis base...
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
Okay, I'm just looking at MadNes' previous posts.
I just find it really hard to believe that you are not selling or very involved with the game as a moneymaker. This isn't intended to be an attack. In this thread from months ago, you are clearly saying that you are running a demo with several loaner armies available to you. I am aware that Games Plus is not in Quebec... on the other hand I personally know shop owners who have been unable to get their hands on Ex Illis stuff to trial the game to date. Still... if I'm wrong, tell me.
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Post by: MadNes
I own 2 armies, my sister owns an army, my father owns an army 2 of my friends own an army and my stepson owns an army. At the game store we split them in half and play half starter v half starter if there are enough people to warrant it.
I demo the game because I like it a lot. I'm not aware of any pressgangers who get paid to demo games. If nobody plays ex-illis, games plus and chicagoland games stop selling. Thats bad for me (again selfish reasons)
Stores that cannot get product should send a pm to lucifer or sallah addine on the exillis forum. I have a hard time believing they would deny any store some help promoting the game.
Now, I've said I don't work for bastion. I would appreciate this part of the convo dying. I take offense to being called a liar. Automatically Appended Next Post: NAVARRO wrote:MadNes wrote: I don't know many fantasy games that have something this big, Thats pretty dope to me.
.
Gw has some, pp also has some big terrain and theres tons of companies that develop just bases or large terrain pieces.
THe problem with a specific base for one miniature is that on tabletop games it gets tiring to look at same base on same mini over and over again...
FOr example check mumak base for lotr... done some years ago and so much sharper than this 2010 exillis base...
I thi that those bricks on the base are where the feet are going to go. If I'm correct, brother this thing is going to dwarf all those figs you mentioned. Kinda reminds me of when wizkids released galactus for heroclix.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
I haven't called you a liar, and I won't. I accept your answer. Cheers. Might have something to do with them being Australian stores.. hehe Anyway, to my original point and how I'd like to end my involvement in this... the models don't appeal to me, but I'd like to give the game system a go. I can say nothing more having not tried it, although the interface seems awkward. Can you claim otherwise? I'd like to hear more about the smartphone/laptop side of things, and if it is absolutely necessary... or if it actually works well. Access to a lappy/phone aren't a problem for me. I can imagine how their involvement could be an advantage or a disadvantage, and you're clearly happy with it. Also, what other tt games do you play? Just after perspective...
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Post by: Kurgash
I'm wondering what their concept of Satan is. Hoping it's something unique aside the cliche goat horns/hooves approach. Really something sinister.
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Post by: MadNes
I discovered gaming through heroclix. I don't quite fit the classic gamer background so this was my doorway in.
I moved on to whfb around 5th ed. Lizards n brettonian box. I stuck with lizards cuz I'm mexican american an the aztec look resonated with me. I lost my army when my apartment was robbed. That in combination with the inability to get friends into the game made me hang it up for a while.
I found heroscape at toys are us and got hooked on that. Heroscapers introduced me to podcasts.
I found podhammer 40k radio and the d6g.
From there got into orks for 40k and chaos / vamps for whfb
I also play a neverborn crew in malifaux. Pandora is my fav, but I often throw killjoy in the mix
Play arcane legions a bit... But thats right around the time I discovered ex-illis (last gencon)
As far as the giant model, we don't know its going to be satan, thats just a guess. As far as having a different take - for starters Satan and Lucifer are different people. Actually people on the boards complained Lucifer doesn't look more classically devil'ish. Go figure.
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Post by: kronk
Kurgash wrote:I'm wondering what their concept of Satan is. Hoping it's something unique aside the cliche goat horns/hooves approach. Really something sinister.
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Post by: MadNes
As far as gameplay, you may be able to find out for yourself.
http://forum.ex-illis.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2572&p=12807#p12807
This thread mentions bastion kicking around the idea of a 30 day free trial. Pop on and tell them ur interested.
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Post by: NAVARRO
MadNes wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NAVARRO wrote:MadNes wrote: I don't know many fantasy games that have something this big, Thats pretty dope to me.
.
Gw has some, pp also has some big terrain and theres tons of companies that develop just bases or large terrain pieces.
THe problem with a specific base for one miniature is that on tabletop games it gets tiring to look at same base on same mini over and over again...
FOr example check mumak base for lotr... done some years ago and so much sharper than this 2010 exillis base...
I thi that those bricks on the base are where the feet are going to go. If I'm correct, brother this thing is going to dwarf all those figs you mentioned. Kinda reminds me of when wizkids released galactus for heroclix.
Interesting...Dwarfs a mumak? Well something tells me you will post it here when its released, will be waiting for it and hope its a nice model.
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Post by: warboss
so... you apparently have to "activate" your minis online with a code. what happens when you sell your minis on the secondary market like the swap shop here? can the other person use them or are the models just really ineffective paper weights? the thread mentions that stolen units can't be reregistered to another person due to the code being necessary so i'm assuming used sold ones have the same problem. Does the person have to keep every code just in case they sell their armies at a later date? can the code be "transferred" to the new user? i'm assuming that they can't reuse those codes (just like with electronic game DLC) since nothing would stop people from just posting them online and having multiple people use the same one. the models have little to no secondary value to gamers if they can't be resold to others.
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Post by: MadNes
You know I will. Athough, if I were smart, I would stop subjecting myself to all this flak. Guess I'm a massochist.
You n me both.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
warboss wrote:
so... you apparently have to "activate" your minis online with a code.
I am suddenly completely devoid of interest in this game system. Thanks all!
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Post by: BrookM
Serial numbers are a stumbling block. I've checked out the software and well, can't do diddly.
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Post by: Neconilis
Arctik_Firangi wrote:warboss wrote:
so... you apparently have to "activate" your minis online with a code.
I am suddenly completely devoid of interest in this game system. Thanks all!
I was taken aback by that as well, especially because I buy so many of my gaming figures secondhand. I'm interested in this hybrid game system, and the fluff seems appealing, but if I have to use brand new and official miniatures... That's simply not interesting enough to me anymore. What if I want to use a different proxy figure or create something unique of my own? The most fun I have outside of game-play is assembling and building miniatures, and if that's being restricted the game loses a lot.
Maybe we're missing something however and the above assumption isn't truly the case?
Also, MadNes, thanks for putting up with the all too common BS of this board to talk about this game. Like the game or not I find it informative and interesting and I would hope others do too. So thanks, and please do continue to keep us updated on the state of the game and models.
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Post by: MadNes
Activation codes are used to keep track of units for the purpose of - assigning battlepoints, renoun, the leveling system and spec'ing. They also work with the mustering program.
The whole point of the thread I linked to is; a user is asking about these issues, and bastion addressing them. If you read carefully, they are aware of these concerns and plan to address them in time.
Bastion gives you -
The rules
The army creation software
The fluff
The unit tacticas (read as codex)
The game software
(and soon) trial codes to proxy models
I don't think registering units is unfair. Especially at that price point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Neconilis wrote:Arctik_Firangi wrote:warboss wrote:
Also, MadNes, thanks for putting up with the all too common BS of this board to talk about this game. Like the game or not I find it informative and interesting and I would hope others do too. So thanks, and please do continue to keep us updated on the state of the game and models.
Thanks brother. Appreciate it.
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Post by: warboss
MadNes wrote:Activation codes are used to keep track of units for the purpose of - assigning battlepoints, renoun, the leveling system and spec'ing. They also work with the mustering program.
The whole point of the thread I linked to is; a user is asking about these issues, and bastion addressing them. If you read carefully, they are aware of these concerns and plan to address them in time.
**snip***
I don't think registering units is unfair. Especially at that price point.
neither do i, as long as that registration is FULLY TRANSFERABLE. trying to kill the secondary market by making the online portion of the game mandatory AND not allowing used figs to transfer their online licenses would be a HUGE mistake. i realize the thinking behind this (used game sales don't benefit the company directly) but alot of gamers will see that as unreasonable.
listen, i appreciate you trying to answer the questions being raised here but you're getting something wrong in your zeal to defend the game you love... comments about a lack of detail on a giant base posted as advertising is NOT bs when it's the general consensus across different forums... taking offense at a company calling it's future userbase elitist nerds is NOT bs... bringing up the fact that the current company policy of mandatory online activation of minis making used models useless if it's nontransferable is NOT bs. you're the OP and an enthusiatic fanboi (not meant as an insult btw) and not an employee of the company... you've been involved with the game and its playtesting for a while and i think your enthusiasm is clouding your objectivity... either way, you shouldn't have to be addressing these issues. the company should have forseen them and addressed them PRIOR to releasing the game and publicizing it. this game may very well be the best game ever in terms of mechanics and more fun than mud wrestling megan fox... but some gamers will never give it a chance because of the company's corporate decisions.
we're all passionate about toy soldiers here... that's why we come to post on dakka. alot of us have played a ton of different games and seen companies come and go from the market... it's not hard for us to see what we consider the flaws in the company's strategy that THEY should have addressed and you're an unfortunately casualty in this. it's not too late to change these things so we'll see if they decide to listen to the complaints...
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Post by: Richard Coeur de Lion
I can pledge that MadNes is not an Ex illis employee, I am. I thought this was obvious when I posted but I can understand the confusion. Although sometimes I feel he's doing a better job than I am.
We understand that our message have been misunterpreted, and we are sorry if anyone has felt offended. We have never meant to insult anyone.
That sentence on the wiki was far from reflecting our vision and the whole idea behind Ex illis.
The sentence has been corrected on our website. The wiki is still in Beta stage, there is A LOT of material on there, with our limited staff we didn’t have time to proofread everything yet, we are working hard on it, and this mistake definitely slipped our attention; thank you for your understanding.
What SHOULD be there is to say that Ex illis is about sharing; sharing the passion of wargaming with families and friends, sharing an awesome tactical moment against a good adversary, sharing a narrative universe to set your battles in. You know we could have made a video game or any other game you can play alone, against yourself or a computer, but we decided to build something much bigger and more involving that you don’t want to play alone. This is how we love to play and this is how we would like you to play Ex illis.
Since the concept is not exactly standard, it’s hard to make a mind about the game without seeing it, which is a shame because 90% of the critizisms come from people who never held an Ex illis miniature in their hands. And while we don’t pretend things are perfect, we’re quite proud of the game we made! If some of you will be at Gen Con (or similar events, we participate to quite a few) and like ask us a question or try the game, we’d love to meet you and have a good chat.
Having a (or several) good demo(s) is key to be able to « get » what Ex illis is all about, and that it might actually be a really fun game to play. Heck there are lots of players out there playing it and loving it, our good MadNes being a perfect example, so they must be up to something… Automatically Appended Next Post: warboss wrote: as long as that registration is FULLY TRANSFERABLE. trying to kill the secondary market by making the online portion of the game mandatory AND not allowing used figs to transfer their online licenses would be a HUGE mistake. i realize the thinking behind this (used game sales don't benefit the company directly) but a lot of gamers will see that as unreasonable.
I can reassure you, the second market issue is a concern for us too, and you don't have to worry, miniatures will be fully transferable with their registration code.
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Post by: MadNes
I didn't call it BS someone else did
I don't have to answer these questions, I choose to; A) I AM a fanboi of the game B) I enjoy the discussion. Sometimes, it does seem like people are pilling on, but I can handle it.
Most of the issues you mentioned we discussed to death, I've said my peace and have moved on, so...
The secondary marjet - Honeatly I would be surprised if bastion spent 10 seconds thinking about the registrations effect on the secondary market. But, like I said, the thread I linked to shows a player concerned about this topic. It then shiws bastion ackowleginthe issue and stating they will address it in time. Dunno what else you want from them.
As far as my objectivity being blinded, you should know I'm one of the first people to complainmon the exillis forums when something is not right / meeting my expectations. I'm not bastions drone, when I see a problem I mention it. When i post about it on their forum in a constructive way they listen. When I show sound reasoningand logical solutions, they implement them. Now, I'm not special, any one of you can go on the exillis forum and constructively offer suggestions to better the game or express concerns. Guess what, they will listen to you too. If your suggestions make sense they will implement them. But talk to the peoplw who have the power to make changes and give answers, I'm sure they would love to hear from you.
I'm alot of things homie, but a blind follower is not one of them. They won my adament support through awesome gameplay and even better customer service. Try em
http://forum.ex-illis.com/index.php
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Post by: warboss
MadNes wrote: I didn't call it BS someone else did
MadNes wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Neconilis wrote:Arctik_Firangi wrote:warboss wrote:
Also, MadNes, thanks for putting up with the all too common BS of this board to talk about this game. Like the game or not I find it informative and interesting and I would hope others do too. So thanks, and please do continue to keep us updated on the state of the game and models.
Thanks brother. Appreciate it.
lol, due to a mistake somewhere in your quoting of other messages, your post makes it seem like i did and i figured you were just being coy/sarcastic about it. my mistake. my opinion on the issues raised still stands in that they're not BS but legit.
Richard Coeur de Lion wrote:I can pledge that MadNes is not an Ex illis employee, I am. I thought this was obvious when I posted but I can understand the confusion. Although sometimes I feel he's doing a better job than I am.
We understand that our message have been misunterpreted, and we are sorry if anyone has felt offended. We have never meant to insult anyone.
That sentence on the wiki was far from reflecting our vision and the whole idea behind Ex illis.
**snip**
I can reassure you, the second market issue is a concern for us too, and you don't have to worry, miniatures will be fully transferable with their registration code.
thanks for coming here to clear it up the details. i think madnes's fingers were getting raw from typing.
MadNes wrote:
I'm alot of things homie, but a blind follower is not one of them. They won my adament support through awesome gameplay and even better customer service. Try em
http://forum.ex-illis.com/index.php
never said you were a blind follower, just maybe too passionate to be objective about some of the criticisms brought up from people with fresh eyes and not emotionally invested in the game. either way, the company via richard seems to be listening/addressing the constructive criticism and that's all i can ask. they may ultimately decide it's not in their best interests to follow the advice given here and that would be perfectly reasonable too.
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Post by: MadNes
@ warboss - when I found out about ex-illis, I was JUST like you. The SAME EXACT concerns. 4real.
I went to gencon last year checking for Malifaux and Arcane Legions. Upon first glance I also did not like:
Grid Based Movement
Unit. Registry
Rolling Dice replaced by a fate screen
Units leveling up
The soft faction system.
Etc.
I then gave it a REAL shot.cuz my sister was all geeked about the iPhone part. To my surprise I liked it... Really liked it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont gloss over the areas of concern because I'm passionate about the game.
I'm passionate about the game because my gaming concerns / needs have been well met.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
When we finally see the big demon thing can someone start a new thread?
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Post by: MadNes
Kid_Kyoto wrote:When we finally see the big demon thing can someone start a new thread?
You betcha!
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Post by: Neconilis
MadNes wrote: I didn't call it BS someone else did
Indeed, that would be me. Also, just to be clear, I don't have any sort of issue with any of the concerns being raised. I called a lot of the discourse BS because of the general tone of it, not the subject matter.
That being said it seems emotions are dying down and that's always good to see and good for the conversation as well.
Now if I could only listen to my own advice at times...
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Post by: Vene
warboss wrote:
so... you apparently have to "activate" your minis online with a code. what happens when you sell your minis on the secondary market like the swap shop here? can the other person use them or are the models just really ineffective paper weights? the thread mentions that stolen units can't be reregistered to another person due to the code being necessary so i'm assuming used sold ones have the same problem. Does the person have to keep every code just in case they sell their armies at a later date? can the code be "transferred" to the new user? i'm assuming that they can't reuse those codes (just like with electronic game DLC) since nothing would stop people from just posting them online and having multiple people use the same one. the models have little to no secondary value to gamers if they can't be resold to others.
Ew, ew, ew , ew. I want nothing to do with that. Then again, I'm mathematical enough that I would be willing to calculate numbers by hand.
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Post by: grizgrin
MadNes: I am curious about the price point you mentioned as being part of what swayed you. What are you comparing Exillis product to that makes the price point such a value?
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Post by: MadNes
grizgrin wrote:MadNes: I am curious about the price point you mentioned as being part of what swayed you. What are you comparing Exillis product to that makes the price point such a value?
$60 for 54 minis (including 2 big monsters and some [ IMO] really nice cavalry) is a sweet deal. When you throw in the really nice laminated map, (REALLY HEAVY MATERIAL) and the fact that bastion provides their rules, software, equivalent of a codex and an army construction tool for free... that to me seems like a bargain.
or for $160 you could get all of that stuff, plus 20 plastic 9" x 9" tiles. My group has three sets of tiles between us and they are awesome for setting up big games. The last one we played was a 6 player game, three players per team. we had about 220 models on the board and finished the game in about 2 hrs... SO FUN.
The boxed sets are a nice price too. other than the baneret which is WAY overpriced, ($22 for 2 figs) all of the other boxed sets are a really sweet deal. Most human sized boxed sets come in squads of 8 and sell for about $27 bucks. The mangonel boxed was was especially nice, it came with two mangonels and 2 crews of 3 for $25 bucks.
The sets also give you tons of extra bits for conversions and what not. Its also cool that your units will level up and gain new abilities (renewing or changing the units core competency depending on how you spec them) every few games. Meaning as your guys level up you can develop new tactics and uses, so its like getting a new unit after a few battles.
oh and I know bastion catches tons of flak for the registration codes, but the codes allow you to level and spec your guys, apply renown and develop a real history (which will have in game effects when bastion releases the campaign mode) with each unit. Meaning, Archer unit A) can be spec'd out to be super marksmen B) can be spec'd out to do elemental damage C) can be spec'd out to shoot at longer distance D) can be spec'd out to shoot a higher volume of arrows, or any combination within. So I don't have redundant units if I don't want them.
Even better, your archers and my archers won't necessarily play the same way.
Not bad for a $60 starter set and a couple of boxes of reinforcements
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Post by: ph34r
Most human sized boxed sets come in squads of 8 and sell for about $27 bucks
Are they better models than GW models? GW sells models cheaper than that, so $27 for 8 immediately sets off warning klaxons in my mind. If they aren't up to GW snuff, I would not buy them. If they are monopose and moderately blobby like some of the models that I have seen in this thread, I would not even consider buying them. oh and I know bastion catches tons of flak for the registration codes, but the codes allow you to level and spec your guys, apply renown and develop a real history (which will have in game effects when bastion releases the campaign mode) with each unit. Meaning, Archer unit A) can be spec'd out to be super marksmen B) can be spec'd out to do elemental damage C) can be spec'd out to shoot at longer distance D) can be spec'd out to shoot a higher volume of arrows, or any combination within. So I don't have redundant units if I don't want them.
Isn't this what GW does with wargear and characters, except instead of buying items and modeling the weaponry, with this new game you have a basic guy and remember by some number code that he has XYZ...? I do not see the appeal.
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Post by: MadNes
Well ph, I gotta tell ya, if ya don't like the look of the models there's nothing else Ex-illis can do for you. In truth, thats the same reason I don't play warmachine.
Personally, I like the look of ex-illis better than a comparable gw force like bretonia or empire. On a side note, I was looking into getting some lotr movement bases to see if I can double up my english units into a bretonian army.
As far as comparing wargear to leveling and spec'ing, you could make a comparison. However, I find wargear to be a bit more generic (in most instances) than spec'ing which is tailored to each individual unit. In General, there are way more options in the spec tree than wargear options for a unit. (particularly in fantasy). There is also something more gratifying about playing games and achieving the skill up, than just picking a type of gun or armor.
Oh and bastion has announced that they are developing an in game economic system. So on top of spec'ing and leveling, you will be able to purchase... You guessed it wargear! Hurray for options.
As far as remembering who has what, that is up to the creativity of the player. Bexause there is no wysiwyg or true LOS, you can convert your figs to your hearts content. You spec out your swordsmen as fire based, greenstuff fire to their swords, paint them in firey. Colors, name them in the software, "flame Swordsmen" (or something creative), color them in the software to match the paint scheme... Or try to remember the code...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
MadNes wrote:Oh and bastion has announced that they are developing an in game economic system. So on top of spec'ing and leveling, you will be able to purchase... You guessed it wargear!
Excuse me, but WTF?
Let me get this straight:
To play the game:
1. I buy minis which aren't obviously better than GW (unlike Malifaux & Infinity)
2. I buy software (unlike any other minis TTG)
3. I have to register my minis with the manufacturer (unlike any other minis TTG)
4. I compete against players who literally credit card their way to better-performing stuff in-game
5. Opponent minis stats are a mystery, until they show me how 1337 they are in-game
Screw that.
It is hard for me to believe it, but these d-bags have managed to combine every loathsome a-hole d-head practice one can imagine into a single game:
1. licensed minis
2. MMORPG levling
3. Defective By Design DRM-like hooks
4. credit card gaming
5. non- WYSIWYG minis
Normally, I'm pretty live-and-let live, but the more I learn about this game, the less I like it.
I really hope this thing fails HARD, and will be bad-mouthing it at every chance. If this game model succeeds, there isn't anything that'll stop GW, PP, and the rest from following suit, and that simply won't be acceptable gaming practice.
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Post by: Aginor
Hrmmpph. Been lurking for a while on this forum, made an account to post on this thread (though didn't feel the need until now), but this is just so plain wrong that I have to dive in.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Excuse me, but WTF?
Let me get this straight:
To play the game:
1. I buy minis which aren't obviously better than GW (unlike Malifaux & Infinity)
I'll concede this point to you - this is a matter of personal taste, and you are entitled to that opinion. Although I have to admit that I have a weakness for realistic proportions - it makes the few heroic units look that much more epic. (Ever heard of dynamic range in songs, where volume just tops off at 11 all along? Makes everything anticlimactic, contrary to, lets say, well sound-engineered music or classical music).
2. I buy software (unlike any other minis TTG)
Patently false. The software, the wiki, the coloring tool so ingame units look like you painted them, the army builder software are all free. The builder and coloring can be used as soon as you have a miniature in your account.
Even so, if they made you pay once for the software, it would still be better than codexes which you have to buy every edition of (and all patches, the equivalent of codex updates and errata, are also free of charge and automatically integrated).
3. I have to register my minis with the manufacturer (unlike any other minis TTG)
A triviality. This permits them to track your miniatures, allowing you to assign a specific painting scheme to each at will, following their progression, acquiring skills and so on. The "DRM" side (as in, they still have control over your code, you don't) did instill some fear at first, but it seems that the next few updates are aiming at solving this problem, with a lending feature and trial feature being discussed, as well as a marketplace that has been discussed on the forums since beta began about a year ago. And so far, I haven't wanted to get rid of a single of my minis
4. I compete against players who literally credit card their way to better-performing stuff in-game
Sounds to me like you deliberately twisted Madnes' words. He specified an in-game economic system. That is, you can earn gold (maybe possibly even loot) after battles, which can then be used to possibly buy items, reassign specialty points, and I don't know what else. I am confident that the Bastion team knows not to make that universally hated mistake, microtransactions, that a few well-hated cashcow MMOs have been making lately - Ragnarok Online, I'm looking at you!
5. Opponent minis stats are a mystery, until they show me how 1337 they are in-game
Nope. There are very helpful helpscreens littered through the UI, that basically make all the game state info available to you at will. For instance, by clicking on a unit portrait you have access to all their current properties, statuses, moral states and statistics. But I've seen a few players who preferred to play in a fog-of-war mindset, who simply decided that neither player should access those functions during a game.
Screw that.
It is hard for me to believe it, but these d-bags have managed to combine every loathsome a-hole d-head practice one can imagine into a single game:
1. licensed minis
2. MMORPG levling
3. Defective By Design DRM-like hooks
4. credit card gaming
5. non-WYSIWYG minis
Well, #3 is basically a repeat of #1, you list #2 as if it was a bad thing, #4 is at best a wild-ass assumption, and #5...
Well, its true that it's not WYSIWYG, but I like that. I've made a lot of conversions that wouldn't have been allowed if I was playing in a system where LOS is determined by the actual sculpt. But it's also a bit WYSIWYG, which is also a nice added justification for having minis on the board that I didn't see mentionned so far - the zone system permits the use of a bulk system that is orthogonal to accuracy for range shooting and magic shooting, and which is also the basic mechanism for artillery attacks. Every miniature has a bulk value that is representative of the volume it takes up on the board. So just by looking at a zone's content, you can intuitively guess whether you should expect a lot of enemy hits, a lot of friendly fires, or anything in between, depending on how the zone is packed.
Normally, I'm pretty live-and-let live, but the more I learn about this game, the less I like it.
I really hope this thing fails HARD, and will be bad-mouthing it at every chance. If this game model succeeds, there isn't anything that'll stop GW, PP, and the rest from following suit, and that simply won't be acceptable gaming practice.
Well, the cat's out of the bag. You have a righteous, self-sufficient and hypocritical attitude and it seems like you self-select what you decide to hear as to maximise how much you hate it. You have clearly learned very few about this game so far - although I understand, I was a WoW fanboy for a long while, so I didn't even want to hear about the possibility of Age Of Conan, Warhammer Online, etc., possibly being good games.
You should broaden your horizons a bit, that should help you get rid of that attitude which, I guess, isn't helping you discover new things which could actually amaze you, be it ex illis or another game.
Maybe start reading an article like the melee mechanics, which could make you realise that intuitive rules doesn't mean the absence of depth of gameplay.
Edit: Unproper opening tag for the last quote
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
^ I'm glad that you can predict the future, that this game will be so customer friendly for all eternity...
All I've learned, comes from this thread. And it makes me sick to my stomach that such a game and company can even exist.
Good riddance, and hope to hear it's bankrupt sooner rather than later!
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Post by: BrookM
Maybe you are overreacting a wee bit.
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Post by: MadNes
Johnny... C'mon Johnny. Poor soul, he was just too high strung.
Love when you post John, but you gotta relax a little, you're gonna give yourself a heart attack.
Now, throw away that hater-ade and be nice. Calling people d-bags and a-holes just isn't the dakka way...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and as far as the game being consumer friendly forever... The trend is your friend brother.
They are customer friendly now. Thats what matters. If things change cross that bridge when you come to it.
Somebody give johnny a hug man
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Post by: Aginor
JohnHwangDD wrote:^ I'm glad that you can predict the future, that this game will be so customer friendly for all eternity...
All I've learned, comes from this thread. And it makes me sick to my stomach that such a game and company can even exist.
Good riddance, and hope to hear it's bankrupt sooner rather than later!
Well then, looks like you didn't even read my retort, because it looks like you're still a bit misled. Why are you does the game make you sick if what you think you know about it isn't even true?
I can't speak for them, but I remember this very friendly, business-oriented fanboy on their forums who kept suggesting such schemes, microtransactions and all. Overall, he had a lot of good ideas, but the Bastion team clearly felt the need to constantly reiterate that they are first, foremost and only a miniatures company. I think they might implement some of those ideas sooner or later (they're completely open to suggestions and constructive criticism, even on their own forums), but I don't doubt that they'll be free (although I wouldn't mind paying some more dev time by myself to have those tasty suggestions come sooner rather than later - still better than buying codexes, )
Anyway, I suggest you make a trip to their forums and voice your concerns, you can be sure you'll be heard, and I don't doubt you'll be surprised by their attitude.
Gamingly yours,
Aginor
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Post by: Vene
Actually, I have a question about the game software, what happens when you want to make custom rules?
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Post by: insaniak
JohnHwangDD wrote:I really hope this thing fails HARD, and will be bad-mouthing it at every chance.
I would recommend finding somewhere else to do it, then.
You're welcome to your opinion on the game, but there is nothing gained by flinging poo at it just because you don't like the direction they've chosen to take with the game.
Edit: Meanwhile, I have removed a bunch of off-topic posts from this thread. While I'm inclined to think this thread has run its course, I'm leaving it open for now just on the off-chance that anyone else has on-topic discussion to add.
Please leave the hysteria at the door.
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Post by: Neconilis
insaniak wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:I really hope this thing fails HARD, and will be bad-mouthing it at every chance.
I would recommend finding somewhere else to do it, then.
You're welcome to your opinion on the game, but there is nothing gained by flinging poo at it just because you don't like the direction they've chosen to take with the game.
Thank you.
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Post by: Warboss Narznok
Well back on subject. The gameplay and mechanics for Ex Illis are just a mess. Rules contradicting other rules and keeping track of all these other rules is hard to remember. There was a group called Beast of War on Youtube and they did reviews of box sets and the minis and they said they were fairly impressed. They brought the game designer into their studio and said they were going to make a video where people could ask their questions about the game mechanics and the games designer would answer the questions. Then they said they will do a video of a Ex Illis game demo with the game designer and see how the game works. They never did that. Those videos never came. Then about 4 days later,The Beast of War group then did a random user give away and gave away all (and i mean ALL) the Ex Illis stuff they reviewed to a lucky winner. I wonder why. Then a week later, this video came out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9oztrkSBs A Game Demo video explaining how the game works. It is ridiculous combination of Miniature Wargame/Board Game/Computer Game that adds up to this confusing abomination. The cost to get into this game cost more than a Assault on Black Reach Starter Box Set. People who decided to pay the price to get a starter box ended up returning it for it being too confusing. The story of the game is that it is a Historical/Fantasy game. That doesn't make sense. What is the point of the minis if you have the computer game. You watch the video and answer that. This video makes more sense and is more enjoyable than the Ex Illis Game Demo video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ4CDKozP48 Right now this game has small popularity and not a lot of people are playing it. It is kind of sad. :(
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Post by: JSK-Fox
Now I'm even more confused by it. The fact that their is actually a PICTURE on screen, not just the stats, means that there is no point of the board, just a piece of paper is needed really. Why spend extra money that is not even needed. I'd rather use fantasy guys than the things that are shown... oh wait, you have to register your models.
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Post by: MadNes
@ vene - give an example please. There are settings of the game that are customizable, some are not. For instance, you wont be able to make changes to the algarythms for how a uniy hits/ blocks / attacks etc? But I've played with houserules quite a few times. I guess if I had a better Idea of what your lokiking for I could help more.
@'narznok - in my experience, ex-Illis is the most accesible war game to get into. I have no recollection of being confused by a rule. But if
you would like to post examples I would like to try and help clear it up.
The starter for Ex-illis can be purchased for as little as $60 us. In addition to a fair price for 54 (very nice) minis, the absence of a need to purchase rulebooks, codexes, tokens etc, makes the game an even better value. Sure
there will be the odd person out who doen't have a computer, or an Ipod touch, but noone
here should have that problem.
BoW - We have been told the hold up on the video is due mainly to the BoW site upgrades. I'm told the video is still going to happen.
B) most shows of this kind give away theirndemo copies as prizes. The d6g just away battles of westeros... They seemed to have liked it just fine.
Historical fantasy was not invented by bastion. There are tons of games that twist history into a fantastic setting. If its not your thing thats cool, but thats not rhe games fault.
You are right about one thing, the games player base is too small, and that is said because its a darn good game. But like William Wallaces uncle said in Braveheart' "that's something we shall have to remedy isn't it"
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Post by: JSK-Fox
Let us assume that neither player has a laptop, and have an old computer (some people do). They would have to buy a laptop/computer, which would cost a lot. Then, they would need to buy the software/minis, even more. Also, the minis are only needed to register. I'm sure most people prefer having the rush of chance when they roll dice, instead of waiting for calculations to be made.
Anyways, back on topic.
The base looks like a carved soap bar, but if made in better quality, would be awesome.
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Post by: MadNes
Yes, there are graphics on the screen AND minis on the board. I'm not understanding why the "and" part is so difficult for people to grasp. Its a hybrid game. It takes two cool things, fuses them together, and makes a brand new cool thing. Just because its been " either" board "or" computer in the past, doesn't mean it MUST ALWAYS be this way.
Change is good peeps. Automatically Appended Next Post: JSK-Fox wrote:Let us assume that neither player has a laptop, and have an old computer (some people do). They would have to buy a laptop/computer, which would cost a lot. Then, they would need to buy the software/minis, even more. Also, the minis are only needed to register. I'm sure most people prefer having the rush of chance when they roll dice, instead of waiting for calculations to be made.
Anyways, back on topic.
The base looks like a carved soap bar, but if made in better quality, would be awesome.
ipod touch - starting at $199
Netbook - starting at 299
And as a bonus, they are usefull even when you aren't playing ex-illis
P.s. The software is free..
Soap huh? Thats a creepy bar of soap
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Post by: JSK-Fox
Well, fortunately it isn't sharp.
AND YOU WORSHIP TZEENTCH?
Cookie to whoever gets the joke.
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Post by: MadNes
JSK-Fox wrote:Well, fortunately it isn't sharp.
AND YOU WORSHIP TZEENTCH?
Cookie to whoever gets the joke.
Change IS good... But I'm all about
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
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Post by: plastictrees
It's a bit weird that people on an internet forum are factoring buying a computer into the start up cost of this game.
Maybe the number of people I know with laptops, netbooks, Iphones or Ipod touches is a weird anomaly.
The software seems a bit odd to me.
I don't see the need for the animated combat. You're just underlining the redundancy of the models. The software should either keep you further away from the combat on the table (the strategic overview) or take you even closer then you can get with models. A really nice graphic interface would be much better than the animated combat, which looks similar to playing Age of Empires on my gameboy six years ago.
Why are the "duels" flying around the screen?
That first YouTube video was vague, but not especially confusing.
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Post by: MadNes
The youtube video was an epic fail. A really poor representation of the game. It illustrated the baby mechanics, but didn't delve into the deeper layers of gameplay.
The animations appeal to non wargamers. So I can play with a kid or my gf and its neat for them
When too tacticians play each other, trust me, they are staring at the board hard enough to melt the plastic tiles. At least that has been my experience. I don't even notice the animations anymore. (except when new units come out. Its pretty cool to check out oncre or twice.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
I think this has been done to death, we've seen the base, seen Ex Illis' models and talked about Ex Illis' rules and marketing.
When the demon that goes with this base shows up we can start a new thread.
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