I don't know why, but it just seems like everybody that I talk to who play's Space Marines hates the Vanguard Veterans. There a great options open squad that you can really build to suit. Personally I like to run they in this configuration:

5 man Squad.
SGT w/ Lightning claw (free) & Melta-bomb.
Razorback w/ Lascannon

To me the Vanguard Vets are the Space Marine equivalent of Khorne Berzerkers. Just that they can have the option of moving 12 inches if they want it or take a better light armored vehicle.

They don't get a manly catchphrase like the Berzerkers.

The truth is, they're grossly overcosted for what they do.

If you're chopping up GEqs, Assault Marines do the job just as well for a fraction of the price.

If you're chopping up MEqs, Assault Terminators do the job better for around the same price.

The only unique thing they have is the Heroic Intervention (am I remembering the name correctly?) rule, which is situational at best and useless at worst.

Not exactly what I was looking for but good point Little Lord Fauntleroy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:The truth is, they're grossly overcosted for what they do.

If you're chopping up GEqs, Assault Marines do the job just as well for a fraction of the price.

If you're chopping up MEqs, Assault Terminators do the job better for around the same price.

The only unique thing they have is the Heroic Intervention (am I remembering the name correctly?) rule, which is situational at best and useless at worst.

I've never used the Heroic Intervention before, I've always used them in the Razorback because I run Khan as my HQ who gives squads and their D.T.'s Outflank. It's funny to see my opponents face when they see all my Razorbacks come out on their sides blasting away. Plus it gets the troops into a better position to charge their enemies.

I'd have to say they are a bit expensive for what they do, kind of like Noise Marines for CSM. You can get units that do the job just as well for a better price.

Generally speaking, most players feel they are too expensive, and that their one redeeming feature (the Heroic Intervention) is just this side of worthless. Although, honestly, when it comes to Deep Striking units, if I don't have a locator beacon on the table, shame on me.

hpred wrote:Not exactly what I was looking for but good point Little Lord Fauntleroy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:The truth is, they're grossly overcosted for what they do.

If you're chopping up GEqs, Assault Marines do the job just as well for a fraction of the price.

If you're chopping up MEqs, Assault Terminators do the job better for around the same price.

The only unique thing they have is the Heroic Intervention (am I remembering the name correctly?) rule, which is situational at best and useless at worst.

I've never used the Heroic Intervention before, I've always used them in the Razorback because I run Khan as my HQ who gives squads and their D.T.'s Outflank. It's funny to see my opponents face when they see all my Razorbacks come out on their sides blasting away. Plus it gets the troops into a better position to charge their enemies.

The question here is simply whether to pay for a Razorback or to pay for jump packs. The Razorback is more expensive, but also serves as a mobile weapons platform quite nicely, however has the drawback of being a lascannon magnet while it lumbers over to deposit your Vanguards.

In the end, I would just take Assault Terminators, get a locator beacon onto the field, and DS those suckers in. Same result, same price(ish), better models.

I'll Deep strike with Chaos Termies & Oblids. But for some reason I don't with Space Marines unless its my Drop Pod carrying my Melta Dred to take out enemy armor. Deep striking marines take to long to get into the fight as they have to sit there for a turn and get shot at. That's what makes Heroic Intervention so good, they can charge after the strike. I'll have to run a test list to see how it works. And the Locator Beacon only works on Termies, not Assault or Vanguard Marines.

Few people take van vets because they are overpriced for what they do, and assault termies (for more) are more derable and tend to do more damage to pretty much anything.

hpred Wrote:
And the Locator Beacon only works on Termies, not Assault or Vanguard Marines.

Your confusing the locator beacon with the teleporter homer, the teleporter homer only works on terminators the locator beacon works on all other deepstriking units.

I'm with the majority here. Vangaurd vets are horribly overpriced. at 20 points a man with jump packs included they might be worth it. but they're something like 35 a piece when you give them a jump pack. ugh. just take a terminator.
AF

BA Vets are slightly better due to the re-roll they get.
But it's still a trick pony unit....to the extreme.

-Sanct.

Fox Lord uses a 5 man Jump Pack VV Squad
VV Sarg [Relic Blade/SS]
VV x5 [Power Weapon/SS]

They are very effective with the Heroic Intervention and hiting HQ and other Elite Units. They CRUSHED a 15 man Blood Claw Pack with a Rune Priest and Wolf Gard in two Assault PHASES with no losses.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I'm with the majority here. Vangaurd vets are horribly overpriced. at 20 points a man with jump packs included they might be worth it. but they're something like 35 a piece when you give them a jump pack. ugh. just take a terminator.
AF

20 points with jump packs included and they'd be a whopping 2 points more expensive than Assault Marines.

Nobody would ever run Assault Marines again.

But you're correct about them being 35 points apiece with jump packs, and that can be lowered. Or just 25 points, like all Veterans, and include the jump packs. Make it cost nothing to remove them, but make them come standard. Then they might be worth taking. Especially since they're one of the few Vanilla units you can give power weapons to all around, and that 3 attacks on the charge is nice.

Notice also that the Veteran Sergeant is the only Sergeant in the Vanilla Marine army that doesn't cost an extra 10 points. Probably has something to do with the fact that his statline is identical to any other Veteran, and the only difference is different wargear, but his wargear IS cheaper (power sword is standard, Fist is 15 points I believe, versus 25 on anyone else in the unit).

Van Vets could be well worth taking if they were just reduced in cost a bit.

If GW eratta'd them to come with jump packs attached they would overnight become one of the most versatile and effective units in the vanilla marines codex. As it stands now, and as everyone else has said, they're just too many points.

They are 30 points for 1 with a jump pack. NOW, if they were say...20 points for a marine w/jump pack id use them over assault terminators coz you could give them a power weapon and storm shield for 50 points (pretty much giving terminators a jump pack for 10 points)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its quite easy for a vanguard veteran squad of 10 to equal 750 points.

Hazard
yeah well in fairness assault marines are kind of overpriced too. I think blood angels get them for something like 16 points a piece. that makes sense to me. but then who would take tacticals, I hear you cry? nobody! and thank god!
AF

Man I wish Assault Marines where 16 points...

if Vanguard came with the packs included in their price then they would be at least decent.

in order for them to kill things effectivly they will end up costing 1.5 times that of an assault terminator for less durability against normal shooting.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Hazard
yeah well in fairness assault marines are kind of overpriced too. I think blood angels get them for something like 16 points a piece. that makes sense to me. but then who would take tacticals, I hear you cry? everybody because tacticals are infinately superior for holding objectives and are able to use lascannons and other such things! and thank god!
AF

Fix'd for ya.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
blood angels assault marines are scoring btw

AbaddonFidelis wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
blood angels assault marines are scoring btw

its too bad the main point is that you can take a plasma gun and a lascannon w/ your tactical squad, not to mention the rhino or razorback transport... not everyone blood angels or assault armies either so assault marines would be an outstanding waste of points in my gunline CFists army, even if they were scoring, so quit the tactical squad hate.

as for the OP: Vanguards are too expensive to kit out and field when you compare them to things like assault terminators, i have never seen anyone at my club even consider using vanguards so it seems to be a common belief that vanguards aren't worth it, but hey if works for you more power to ya...

Joe
calm down. I was just making a point about the relative effectiveness of units for their points cost. I agree though blood angels assault marines wouldnt make much sense in your crimson fists army. because the units are from two different codices
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Joe
calm down. I was just making a point about the relative effectiveness of units for their points cost. I agree though blood angels assault marines wouldnt make much sense in your crimson fists army. because the units are from two different codices
AF

yes you were, and as usual you missed most of it...also, I find it hilarious that you tell him to "calm down" when he only called you on your singled minded ideas. Especially since you yourself have no problems calling other players name when they disprove or disagree with you

ooooh, internet drama! Someone challenge someone else to a fight!


Regarding vanguard veterans, I think of any T4 3+ save model as having a maximum cost. If they cost 35 points/model, they're just too vulnerable to small arms fire, let alone battlecannons etc. Someone above said that their friend used a squad all with stormshields - I think that's a terrible idea. What are those, 45-50 point models? And they're only as tough as 15 point marines against any kind of low-AP weapon.

If a unit costs as much as v veterans (while being no tougher than its bog-standard troops equivalent) it had better have some sort of devestating offensive potential. Vveterans don't have that. They might wiff their deep strike scatter and be exposed to enemy fire, they are likely to wipe out a unit worth less than themselves in 1 assault phase and then get shot to death.

And to cap it all off, assault terminators are better. In this edition of the rules, killer assault units need to be tough (or cheap) as well as deadly.

Imo, you could take the models and call them assault marines. But that would be more from a collection point of view. From a gaming point of view they're veteran assault marines with an over estimated points cost;

BA are special and are all for assaults, so if I played BA, I would almost always take assault marines, though with a tactical ratio of something like 3:1 for the assault marines.

It's really quite simple: tac squads for the gunlines, vanilla marines and DA for scoring units.
assault squads for BA and other marines who want an objective contester unit. (does "contester" exist? )




Automatically Appended Next Post:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:ooooh, internet drama! Someone challenge someone else to a fight!

when are you free?

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:ooooh, internet drama! Someone challenge someone else to a fight!

when are you free?

When are you willing to fly to Rwanda?

Ted
you wrote: "...on your singled minded ideas. Especially since you yourself have no problems calling other players name when they disprove or disagree with you"


AF

But it's true...but you can't hear me because you just can't accept that there are other people with opinions like Darkhound and I.

But he can't read this because he's ignored me I believe...so ... win/win I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Internet Drama? There is nothing else.

simple.

what do you get? one little rule.

what does it cost you? 125 points.

vanguard are pointless without jump packs. they're just too slow.

If they were, say 150/24 points but came with jump packs, you'd see many more people buying them.

To be fair, you also get the capability of taking a CC squad with both power weapons that hit at normal initiative AND Storm Shields.

With Assault Termies, you have to choose between the two, and always move 6".

Van Vets are nice, there's no doubt about that, there's not a single more customizable CC unit in the Vanilla codex, but they're just overcosted for what they do.

If their Intervention ability was a upgrade you could pay for I would use them more (and not pay for it). They are fairly effective in a Shrike army, you can Infiltrate them and they have Fleet making them pretty fast (first turn charge or reserve to outflank). I've always wanted to see a 10 man unit with Dual Fists and Jump Packs, it would only cost around 800 points!

Actually, to be perfectly serious, I do have a Van Vet squad, five men, jump packs, power weapons, storm shields.

330 points.

Yeah, it never actually got fielded, I just wanted to paint the DA Veteran models I converted for them.

And I never even got around to painting more than one!

@BladeWalker:
That is if you don't play by RAW, , GW's so funny.../sigh.
_____________________
Moar Attack Bikes for Fast Attack Slots!!

From a Fluff point of View I like em. I like the concept and the story behind them. But from a Pratical non-story time of game. They die just as easily to Lasgun fire as their brethens of half the price and are just as effective as Assualt Marines who are by far cheaper.

Unless you want them to break a specific nut at an exact moment with HI. No reason to not bring the Assualt Terminators.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:When are you willing to fly to Rwanda?

Anytime you want, but for the rematch, you fly to France.

I will just say I fear the day that someone fields 3 squads of 10 Vanguard at me, I'm a guard player so cc scares my guys a bit. maby Vanguard are a little over priced, however the "Heroic Intervention" rule which everyone says is so much meh, is the scariest thing Ive seen for ages, they can assault and be guaranteed to kill something EVERY TIME. anything that DS in usualy shoots a couple of things and then dies horribly, with vanguard i dont get to shoot them, and with BA decent of angels they are even scarier. yes they are evpensive, they get to skip the 2+ turns of geting shot at and get into cc instantly. once people work out that they are the most deadly thing in boots against a shooty army more people would use them

Sanctjud wrote:But it's true...but you can't hear me because you just can't accept that there are other people with opinions like Darkhound and I.

But he can't read this because he's ignored me I believe...so ... win/win I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Internet Drama? There is nothing else.

You make a lot of good points...

AF what do you think about that?

I'm on a mission.

Well, to add to the fire Jerry Willydstyle Springer... ... or not.
Hey I want my pay in cash, no check business!

wildstyle
I think sanct is a whining like a little girl.
and yes... I can see that you're on a mission... I'm just going to tell you strait up I'm not interested in talking to him with you as an intermediary.

Really?

Kroot worth it: AF says they suck.
Space Wolves shooty: AF says that they are not.
Bolters?: AF has high expectations for standard weaponry.
etc.

And also a note Willy, my responce was to second Tedurur's post.
Anyway, double standards are the two words of... the month with AF.

I respond to his extreme claims by offering a different point of view, and I'm 'whining like a little girl.'
While we have evidence that he does not care for other peoples' opinions...I mean just look at the Kroot Worthiness thread... it took a whole page for him to realize they can be used in indirect ways for benefit........after repeating it into 2 pages.

/shrug, it's just how it is. It's good that all shades of the rainbow are represented.

AF thinks that 40K is simple and as simple as Black and White. He quotes it like Winning and Losing. I propose that things are shades of grey....... as I think AF completely forget that Draws exist...

AF posts utter nonsense with such frequency that I am forced to mock him.

sigh.... ignore.

Wow, we are on a roll.
Suddenly he'll only have a dialogue of just himself on the internet to reflect his condition currently
And I like how he tells us, even though he really doesn't need to if he doesn't enjoy replying to us so much.
I find it funny that he tells us he's ignoring us....esp. how much he likes replying to our posts.
Which ever makes more sense

I'm sure he loves swimming... in "de Nile".

I was thinking of making a Shrike List with the Following
Shrike leading a Assault Squad with a Chaplin, using the Infiltrate.
One 10 man Vanguard Veteran Squads armed with Paired Lighting Claws


That will run about 1,200 [1,800 for 2 VV Squads] points, but think of all of the fun and Chaos

With that settled... can we get back to the OP please?

Vanguard (for fluff reasons) will play a significant role in the re-making of my chapter and I've been despairing of the fact that they seem too overpriced to ever play a functional battlefield role. Would welcome any comments, examples or ideas to the contrary. i.e. If you had to take vanguard (again, for fluff reasons) how would you use them to get the most out of them?

Thanks...

My above list

Infiltrate the Shrike Squad to make a quick strike on HQ and Heavy Weapon Squads.
The other would be broken up onto their combat Squads to munch on rear aria units with Lighting Claws or Melta Bombs as needed.
If the game is big enough include Assault Terminators to the same.

OK, what if you took Vanguard Vets with Jet packs with a Chaplain with Jetpack. Heroic intervention with Chaplain Re-roll, (Sweeping advance?) could be pretty devastating if you Deep Strike get the 1st assault in, especially if your Vets are tooled up. they'll get smashed by turn 3 but the rest of the Army will have steamed across the board.....This seems to good to be true, what have i missed?

The Chaplin is a IC and removes the Heroic Intervention

D'oh, Yup your correct. Vanguard Veterans are brilliant as a concept but the points cost, well it just makes them.......redundant? Sternguards on the other hand are kick ass!

See, it sucks when there has to be a disclaimer like:

"Please advice that doesn't include: 'lol they suck, play werewolf/twilight marines lol'"

I would say... randomly, 1 special close combat weapon per...3 bodies...cause that seems a good balance. Don't load up on them too much and keep them flexible.

If you have access to options that can take locators, maybe 1 -2, but even then they are kinda iffy to get into position early and survive til the Vanguard are available.

The only time Vanguards are worth it (IMHO) is in a BA army when you don't want to spend the points on a DC with Lemartes. Basicly you suit them up however you want, drop them in a stormraven, and use the descent of angels special rule and heroic intervention (DoA is allowed from units with JPs disembarking from a stormraven) and smash stuff like that. That's basicly the same as a termie death march, with speed being valued over tanking.
I find tho that that is a matter of choice, whether you're the kind of person who likes to play light and fast (tho if you do you should probably be playing Eldar) or the kind of person who likes to tank.

If I had to run them, for whatever reason, I'd run them as a 5-man jump pack suicide squad with two power fists and three chainswords.

Their entire purpose would be to deeps-strike in and crack open a troublesome tank or drop a monstrous creature with their 3 attacks on the charge and HI. They'd die soon after, but as long as they did around 200 points of damage, they'd pay for themselves.

This is the only way I can see them reliably fielded and working in such a way that they're more useful than Assault Marines.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:sigh.... ignore.

Mission Accomplished

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Hazard
yeah well in fairness assault marines are kind of overpriced too. I think blood angels get them for something like 16 points a piece.
AF

That right there. Random side note we get them for 18, we get sqauds of ten for 20 pts more than a full tac squad and can't take any heavy weapons. and special weapons are counter productive to our namesake (namely assaulting) as they knock off our attacks. hence the hand flamer. Tac squads are best when you want bodies on the ground that WONT get munched by enemy models with guns with longer than 12" ranges
ANYWAY
back on topic
Vanguards really shouldn't be used like that (as melta vets) They should be used for flankers on blob squads. Personal favorite is do a strafe run with a storm raven on a guard gunline and then DoA HI them into the survivors. Now THATs some scary gak

I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

The only reason I can see to take them is when running a Shrike list, and then only in a 5-man unit. Sprinkle the close combat gear around the squad for wound shenanigans, Infiltrate them, then use that 12" jump pack move, Run, then charge via Fleet. As long as you have some meltabombs and a powerfist in the unit, you can have a nice little alpha strike unit that can carve up almost anything first turn.

Then there's the wonderful loss of initiative or full reserves (if you deploy first and declare they infiltrate) that can screw you up.

TheRhino wrote:I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

I don’t now about To expensive, as I have said in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread, its about the Synergy.
Yes they can be a points sink, but look at what is possible for a Mini-Death Star

Take Vulcan [He goes with some other squad.]

Now take a 5 man Vanguard Squad with Thunder Hammer [Now Mastercraft] and Storm Shields. That come out to 575 points 190 for Vulcan and 385 for the Vanguard].
Now go Deep Strike HQ/Tank hunting, with the Heroic Intervention they will reach their target intact. You should be able to take out anything you hit with it quickly and have a better than average chance of surviving.

Now mix that with some Scout Bikers you will not scatter.

Now it should survive to Assault on its second turn.

Sanctjud wrote:Then there's the wonderful loss of initiative or full reserves (if you deploy first and declare they infiltrate) that can screw you up.

Yeah. Total gamble move. Also 100% useless in a DoW deployment.

Vanguard Veterans can do several things that Assault Terminators cannot do, and do several things better. They can shoot when they arrive via Deep Strike, for example, as well as assault. They can wipe out a unit in a Sweeping Advance, is another. They can better exploit the complex unit rules, move faster, and cost less when the necessary Land Raider transport is factored in. And you need a Land Raider, because Assault Terminators that arrive by Deep Strike are plasma-bait.

Need to wipe out a blob of Imperial Guard Infantry without getting a suntan? Vanguard Veterans.

Need to hop over a swarm of Termagants to kill that Tervigon? Vanguard Veterans.

Need to take out a particular Manticore on the 2nd turn? Vanguard Veterans.

Interdict a unit of Tau Broadside Battlesuits? Vanguard Veterans.

Slaughter an army's entire complement of Obliterators/Long Fangs/Lootas? Vanguard Veterans.

Anpu42 wrote:

TheRhino wrote:I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

I don’t now about To expensive, as I have said in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread, its about the Synergy.
Yes they can be a points sink, but look at what is possible for a Mini-Death Star

Take Vulcan [He goes with some other squad.]

Now take a 5 man Vanguard Squad with Thunder Hammer [Now Mastercraft] and Storm Shields. That come out to 575 points 190 for Vulcan and 385 for the Vanguard].
Now go Deep Strike HQ/Tank hunting, with the Heroic Intervention they will reach their target intact. You should be able to take out anything you hit with it quickly and have a better than average chance of surviving.

Now mix that with some Scout Bikers you will not scatter.

Now it should survive to Assault on its second turn.

But the bottom line is that you just spend close to 800 points (including the bikers) to kill what, a 200 point tank?

Do they even have a use past turn 2 in this scenario? I can't see them living past the enemy's next shooting phase.

Not even close to worth it, here.

Synergy is useful units complimenting each other - not multiple point sinks helping each other sink points.

Anpu42 wrote:
Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

Different animal, entirely . In a friendly pickup game, people use whatever they like.

Take Vulcan [He goes with some other squad.]

Now take a 5 man Vanguard Squad with Thunder Hammer [Now Mastercraft] and Storm Shields. That come out to 575 points 190 for Vulcan and 385 for the Vanguard].
Now go Deep Strike HQ/Tank hunting, with the Heroic Intervention they will reach their target intact. You should be able to take out anything you hit with it quickly and have a better than average chance of surviving.

Now mix that with some Scout Bikers you will not scatter.

Now it should survive to Assault on its second turn.

That's a LOT of moving parts. Scout Bikers that have to survive until the turn the Vanguard show up via Reserves? That's a tough feat to pull off.
The scariest part is landing the Vanguard close enough to your target without either scattering away, or scattering on top of something and causing a mishap.

I really like what they CAN do, it's just so hard to get them to actually DO it.

SaintHazard wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

TheRhino wrote:I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

But the bottom line is that you just spend close to 800 points (including the bikers) to kill what, a 200 point tank?

Do they even have a use past turn 2 in this scenario? I can't see them living past the enemy's next shooting phase.

Not even close to worth it, here.

Synergy is useful units complimenting each other - not multiple point sinks helping each other sink points.

But you compleatly ignored the 1st line

Anpu42 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

TheRhino wrote:I really realy want to like Vanguard Vets, but just can't find a reason to use them for what they cost in points.

Then don't Justify the points, just take some out and have fun with them in a Pick Up game.

But the bottom line is that you just spend close to 800 points (including the bikers) to kill what, a 200 point tank?

Do they even have a use past turn 2 in this scenario? I can't see them living past the enemy's next shooting phase.

Not even close to worth it, here.

Synergy is useful units complimenting each other - not multiple point sinks helping each other sink points.

But you compleatly ignored the 1st line

No, don't worry, I got that. But that's honestly a completely different matter. Here in this thread, we're trying to find ways to justify their cost, and what you suggested really doesn't. That's all I'm saying.

Nurglitch wrote:Vanguard Veterans can do several things that Assault Terminators cannot do, and do several things better. They can shoot when they arrive via Deep Strike, for example, as well as assault.

Just one minor correction here. If you declare a Heroic Intervention, you may not shoot on landing.

Unless you meant they are capable of one or the other on arrival, unlike Hammernators, who can do neither!

I have been finding the 5 man Runic Blade/Power Weapon/Storm Shield on of Fox Lord's to be very effective even vs my Plasma Spam, Terminators and HQ units.
They may not take out thier points cast, but they tie thier points cost x2 every turn they are alive and in my backfield. I concider that to be effective.

TheRhino:

That is correct. Heroic Intervention isn't always necessary. Some units are better handled with a few bolt/plasma pistols up the rear armour.

Nurglitch wrote:Vanguard Veterans can do several things that Assault Terminators cannot do, and do several things better. They can shoot when they arrive via Deep Strike, for example, as well as assault. They can wipe out a unit in a Sweeping Advance, is another. They can better exploit the complex unit rules, move faster, and cost less when the necessary Land Raider transport is factored in. And you need a Land Raider, because Assault Terminators that arrive by Deep Strike are plasma-bait.

Need to wipe out a blob of Imperial Guard Infantry without getting a suntan? Vanguard Veterans.

Need to hop over a swarm of Termagants to kill that Tervigon? Vanguard Veterans.

Need to take out a particular Manticore on the 2nd turn? Vanguard Veterans.

Interdict a unit of Tau Broadside Battlesuits? Vanguard Veterans.

Slaughter an army's entire complement of Obliterators/Long Fangs/Lootas? Vanguard Veterans.

By the way, I just want to point out that if we're talking about point cost to success ratio, several of these (notably 1, 2, 3, though maybe not 4 or 5) can be done via shooting more easily and cheaply (in my opinion) than Van Vets. Yes, Van Vets can do these things better than Terminators, but not as well as a Vindicator for 1, a Devastator Squad with lascannons for 2 and 3. Again, this is just my opinion, but as a result I would not consider using Van Vets for these tasks.

Say what you will about apples or oranges, bananas are a real man's fruit.

Ok, VV would be good held in a gunline army vs 'nids. They can leap over the cheap "Fodder" 'nids and smash into the MC nasty's although A scout Squad with Telion and sniper rifles is good against 'nids.

Remember its not always about points, its about perception, initiative and forcing your opponent to battle on your own terms.

Numbers and statistics in war mean nothing, mathematically Roukes Drift should have been a push over for the Zulu's. How did Russia lose 28 Million in WW2 to Germany's 8million across 3 fronts? Its all about shaping your opponents actions and taking the tactical initiative and then engaging them on ground of your own choosing. Vanguard Vets do have a place, in certain circumstances and if well supported in a balanced army could be a Battle winner!

GitSplitta

about using the vanguard veterans:
well if you're determined to use them my advice would be to use them so as to take full advantage of their heroic intervention rule. Over the last year I've become convinced that deep striking is not as risky as is generally believed, and getting to charge right off the go is potentially very strong. Scouts with locator beacons would make alot of sense with your fluff and also with the tactics that will make them work....

4 combi meltas and the rest lightning claws power weapons relic blade if they can take them, so you can bust an enemy tank if you have to do it on the way in, either a rhino protecting a squad or a baal predator w/e. in this case they're a very flexible unit, capable of effectively engaging any target.

The models are beautiful I've been tempted to buy them many times just to paint them.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
incidentally taking scouts would free up the points you need to run them by fulfilling your FOC requirements without loading up on tacticals.

This is a quick list I made using my current models.

The Basic Plan
Break the Tactical Squads into Combat Squads [Sergeant and Flamer in one and Heavy Bolter in the other], put the Chaplin with one of them.
-Leave the Devastator Squads in full sized and find them a Firebase to work with for covering fire.
-Break the Vanguard Veterans into Combat Squads [Sergeant and the two PP in one and the other five by themselves], using the Sergeant’s combat Squad for Light Armor Hunting and the rest for HQ Hunting.
[Yes I know I do not have Heavy Tank Hunting]

2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster

Space Marine Chaplain (Power Armor; Rosarius; Bolt Pistol; Crozius Arcanum)

Tactical Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer x1; Heavy Bolter x1)
-1x Sergeant (Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

Tactical Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer x1; Heavy Bolter x1)
-1x Sergeant (Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

Tactical Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer x1; Heavy Bolter x1)
-1x Sergeant (Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

Vanguard Veteran Squad (Equip with Jump Packs)
-1x Sergeant (Power Fist x1; Plasma Pistol x1)
-2x Veteran (Chainsword x2; Plasma Pistol x2)
-7x Veteran (Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x2)

Vanguard Veteran Squad (Equip with Jump Packs)
-1x Sergeant (Power Fist x1; Plasma Pistol x1)
-2x Veteran (Chainsword x2; Plasma Pistol x2)
-7x Veteran (Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x2)

Devastator Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x5; Plasma Cannon x4)
-1x Sergeant (Bolter x1; Chainsword x1)

Devastator Squad (Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x5; Plasma Cannon x4)
-1x Sergeant (Bolter x1; Chainsword x1)

AF... and lots of others.... Wow, a lot of good suggestions... maybe things aren't quite as hopeless as I'd feared.


Here is what I'm thinking... and I apologize in advance for pseudo-hijacking the thread.

Preface: Without going into too much detail, my chapter is fluff driven... so if this doesn't sound like the best build it probably isn't... but I want to stay true to my vision of the chapter as that's what I find worth investing all these hours and dollars. MoTF/dread based army with lots of vets but no tracked or wheeled vehicles, also no to very few regular tactical marines. Basically elites and scouts with dreads in support (you can read my blog on the Mantis Warriors if you're interested). It's a vanilla marine chapter.

In a mid-sized army, have two dreads in pods & one sternguard in pod w/ charachter (MoTF, Pedro, etc). Troops include scout units in LS Storms and Scout bikers with homing beacon. Bikes infiltrate and scout move with beacon, 2 LS storms (multimelta) with scouts shadow bikes... turn 1 two pods come down on bikes, sternguard & characters and dread. This allows me to put a lot of shooty points very accurately deep into my opponents backfield on turn 1, including 2 LS multi-meltas, whatever the sternguard are carrying and lots of bolter fire from the scouts & will probably give the scout sergeants PF's for spite, oh, and a dread too. Now I figure if I'm smart, I should be able to scoot the bikes around with relative impunity as they are about the least threatening thing over there... allowing me to drop the Vanguard where/when they're needed the most (by turn 2 or 3 my opponent should be all over my advanced force) and have them (vanguard) charge on the drop just when my opponent thinks he has things well in hand.

In the mean time the rest of my army (sniper scouts, long range dreads) are claiming objectives and sniping at anything they can see with what should be reduced resistance (do to my opponent having to deal with all the stuff in his backfield).


That's my idea anyway... kind of maximizes the impact of the vanguard by throwing them into the middle of a developing battle where their odds of killing something important and/or surviving multiple assaults are increased. Obviously opponent, scenario and if I go first or second will alter the plan to varying degrees... but it seems at least a novel approach, if somewhat unorthodox.

Thoughts?



.

They work quite well for BA since they benefit from DoA. For vanilla Marines the 2d6" scatter is way too unreliable.

death from above.
I think sanguinor has a good point about descent of angels.

You can run the same army you described out of the blood angels codex and that book is so strong that it seems like a really good idea to switch..... this will let you stay consistent with your fluff and make you much more competitive.
AF

the saving grace of VVs is DoA.

scattering only d6 makes DS much less hazardous and allows you to have a very good chance of getting into CC with Heroic Intervention.


the Beardy thing is, BA get DoA for practically free with their Jpacks.

I'll have to take a look at that codex. Though... I guess I don't want to be seen as just jumping on the BA bandwagon because it's a hot dex... but if it really fits in well with my army, it'd be foolish not to give it a fair read.

It's really quite strong. especially for jump pack guys. your chapter sounds pretty air borne so it makes sense to me that they'd be a successor chapter to blood angels or have their own air superiority doctrines, since that's what blood angels are (suddenly) all about.

I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks AF!

Vanguard Veterans are tank, I was gonna get a squad, that was until I tallied the point cost. A fully tooled-up squad can easily pass the 400 point mark.

Several warning Pms sent out to people who have stepped far over the line with regards to the politeness we expect users to show to other posters when dealing with them. Argue your case do not attack the poster.

5 Wounds dies as fast as well 5 wounds. Waste of points for sure. They are only for fluff games in my mind.

@Kaidsin:
Well, it's not that it's 'just 5 wounds'. That can be said of Sternguard, Wolfguard, Cult troopers, anything else that's of an MEQ status.

The issue is that they have a narrow application at a high cost. There is alot of Risk for alot of Reward. Which then falls upon personal taste. Are you risk averse or risk loving.

The Reward? Charging after deepstrike, being safe until deployed onto the board. Locking an enemy unit in combat or taking out something important so that the rest of your list can feel safer, essentially disruption and assassination.

Certainly there are counters and that they are not appealing for cost, but even with a heavy oppurtunity cost, Heroic Intervension is something relatively unique and fairly powerful, if you pull it off<--- that is the issue for most people. Either they don't like the other elements to support this 'trick', or they don't like all the risks involved with it, and risks there are many.

As for them being competitive or not, they don't make it mainly due to IMO people not NEEDING heroic intervension. This is a rules set issue IMO because everything is so fast already that their unique rule is not as flashy as it should be.

At least this is just one point of view.
I could just sit here and say "they suck, use something else, or play Twilight Marines."

Sanctjud, that's kind of offensive. I'm going to have to ask you to steer clear of terms like "Twilight Marines." Please use more politically correct terms like "Nipplemarines" or "Sparklemarines."

Thank you.



That aside, your actual point is solid, and basically what I've been saying from page 1: they're highly situational and highly specialized. If you can make them work, then they're absolutely worth it.

Problem is, nine times out of ten a situation where they really shine does not arise, which makes taking them a gamble.

Edit: Unless you spend another 500 points manufacturing such a situation.

Which, in my opinion, is never the answer.

I think Sanctjud summed it all up quite nicely. Basically there is no reward without risk. HI + DoA makes for a potent combination.

BladeWalker wrote:If their Intervention ability was a upgrade you could pay for I would use them more (and not pay for it). They are fairly effective in a Shrike army, you can Infiltrate them and they have Fleet making them pretty fast (first turn charge or reserve to outflank). I've always wanted to see a 10 man unit with Dual Fists and Jump Packs, it would only cost around 800 points!

But Assault Marines are as effective with Shrike against most turn 1 targets you can hit with infiltrated jump pack infantry as those power-weapons-loaded veterans.

Alkasyn wrote:But Assault Marines are as effective with Shrike against most turn 1 targets you can hit with infiltrated jump pack infantry as those power-weapons-loaded veterans.

Until you hit some MEQs that are rolloing god saves.
I had a normal Assuatl Squad lead by Shrike impact on a 5 Man Devistator Squad, Shrike Killed 3, but the other 15 Wounds caused be Chain Swords Bounced, it took my Sargent with his Power Fist to finishes them off.
This is why the 5 man Power Weapon/Storm Shield Vanguard Vets Crushed my Blood Claws, Every Wound Killed one Model, No Save, but my Wolf Priest becouse he had a 4++. With the Storm Shields even my Power Fist Bounced off them.
I perslonly think thier is a place for them. Not on every list, but if you know you are facing MEQ's, expecialy Tactical Terminators and Death Company 5 armed Vangard Vets with Power Weapon are worth it.

@Alkasyn:
Also assuming you guys play by RAI and House Rule things with Shrike. Heh, silly GW.

@Sanctjud Yea we factor that in. We also play battle missions a lot so we have to cope with even more unexpected stuff.

@Apu That is correct. There is a place for Vanguard, though not too much.

Anyway, I don't wanna resurrect without purpose, and my main goal here is to ask a question.

I recently decided to model and paint a 10 man Vanguard squad. Uselessness/Usefulness aside, I'm thinking what weapons to give them. They'll have magnetised jump packs so that I can switch them to a rhino if I want that, and I was thinking relic blade on Sarge, light claw, power weapon, power weapon, storm shield , each of those on a different model.

All that would mean 4 power weapons and a storm shield in a 10 man squad. Thoughts?

Sounds expensive. Really expensive.

Also, old thread is old.

Playing them (BA/FT's), I found that without a TH or Fist in the squad(s if combat squadded), they had a tendency to get bogged down and neutralized by big nasties they could not easily kill... So I tend to bring at least 2 of the "big" weapons with the full squad just to be sure...

Yea, I'm thinking the Relic blade should get rid of problems like that, but then a PFist can't really hurt either. I guess I'll model a PFist as well.

Also, seeing as I was one of the 3 last posters here, I asked the question here instead of making a new thread.

I have a question. Why has no one mentioned FO?

VV are FA. I see that as an advantage in that you can forgo a CM and Horor Guard. Get a cheap HQ, get your TH/SS Terminators in a LR, and Get some of these guys to be a second elite assault unit. I agree they can get expensive quick, but they are versatile and 2 Attacks base makes them able to take on non-assault units larger than they are. Devs, Lootas, Scouts, Troops, etc.

Space Marine Elites are at premium. FA are not.

I just think that it's an avenue to add in some assault in addition to Terminators, or so you can fit in more sternguard, dreads, etc.

Not the best option for points reasons but not an untakable choice either.

Only problem with that is that you're using two FO slots for the same roll (effectively) as a CM/honour guard.

CM/honour guard only uses one HQ slot. What you're suggesting uses one HQ slot and one Fast Attack slot. Unless you want to discount the HQ slot entirely, in which case there's not much of a difference anymore, and it mostly depends on whether you'd rather use an HQ slot or a FA slot for this purpose.

yeah, I suppose the comparison should only me made with Elites... I nullified my onw point by throwing the HQ in there.

Personally, I feel like both Van Vets and CM/Honour Guard are both horribly overpriced. I'd never take either unless I had a specific job for them to do!

boo necromancy

Why is this still being discussed?!?

Vanguard Vets are no good.

Done!

That sounds like a challenge.

I'm totally going to incorporate Van Vets into one of my SM lists and see if I can make them useful, just so I can at Alpharius!

I have found Vanguard veterans to be a great unit for Blood Angels, Descent of Angels make such a huge difference when combined with Heroic Intervention. Another advantage is you can take more than five as opposed to an Honor Guard or vanilla command squad. This gives you a couple of bodies to soak wounds. Yet another advantage for the Blood Angels version is they can take melta pistols so they also become good tank hunters. They are one of the best assault units in the new BA codex without a doubt.