Some people used math recently and discovered that the Crusade in the Jericho Reach (setting of the DW RPG) consists of between 200,000 - 800,000 Imperial Guard and 1600 Space Marines, divided across three fronts.

To this writer, it seems a bit far fetched, considering it's a Crusade to retake the entire sector, and other, similar Crusades typically run into the billions of guardsmen and sometimes a dozen space marine companies.


What are your thoughts on this fluff development? Is this possible even in 40k that an army outnumbered by the Union Army in the US Civil War could fight untold billions?

Space Marines are the emperors finest, the Angels of Death, none can stay their wrath

Except, of course, everyone that does.

Apart from them

As for a serious answer to this thread's subject...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale

And of course, those that don't.

Why such 'loyal' subject of the Imperium would so work against his chose soldiers is, I'm sure, beyond the understanding of the Emperor himself!

I dunno, how important is the Jericho Reach crusade? Don't know anything about the fluff on it.

If I were to engage in totally baseless speculation, maybe the Lord General leading it was outmaneuvered in political circles and received far less resources than he needed as part of a vile plot by his opponents to see him fail spectacularly.

rabidaskal wrote:I dunno, how important is the Jericho Reach crusade? Don't know anything about the fluff on it.

If I were to engage in totally baseless speculation, maybe the Lord General leading it was outmaneuvered in political circles and received far less resources than he needed as part of a vile plot by his opponents to see him fail spectacularly.

Well, it seems to be being run by the Inquisition and the local space marine chapter, which has donated seven companies, if I'm following the fluff in the book correctly, but it's sort of shady. (As in all things Inquisitorial)

Right now, they're seemingly fighting: CSM, Tau, non-chaos renegade humans, and a Tyranid 'splinter fleet' that has overrun about a quarter of the sector. With 1600 space marines and 250,000 - 800,000 IG.

As fr as 'How important?' it's about as clear as 'Why?' as the Imperium is trying to apparently see if they can win a war on 8 star hard with one hand tied behind their back.

What's their naval support? I mean, 1600 SM and even 1,000,000 IG still seem a little low in my opinion, but maybe they're just planning to "reclaim the sector" by just conducting a bunch of strategic Exterminati, coupled with quick strikes on more valuable holdings...
That's the only way I could justify it...

Is this sector or sub-sector scale forces? It's interesting, as millions of Guardsmen would be used to sieze just a single planet in some cases. It would appear they are entirely outclassed or deluded in their abilities. That or the enemey threat is also statistically minimal, as the Imperium responds to threats with equal (and greater) force.

Also are they just the vanguard for the rest of the Imperial forces?

1) Unknown, but probably small. They're supposedly taking and holding worlds as opposed to exterminatus.
2) Sector, and against Fortress worlds manned by CSMs (according to the map in book), one would hope they'ed bring millions.
3) That's Unclear at this time.

1600 Marines is in keeping with other similar values in the background (though not in keeping with some stuff, like the Macharian Heresy). 800,000 Guardsmen is nothing though. 80 Million for a sector would be more reasonable...

I'm not familiar with this crusade, but less than 1 million guardsmen seems woefully unprepared, especially if its more than one planet, excepting the instances given above, if its a preliminary force or a space oriented crusade. 1600 marines seems about right though for medium sized crusade. So what is this 'math' that was used? Was there speculation? If not, we have to assume the writer messed up his scale and we should just look the other way.

They listed 36 guard units as being in the initial crusade. Math at 5,000 men per regiment was 180,000 men. 10,000 was 360,000 men.

Currently there seems to be some back peddling and the FFG apologists are offering that it will be like the IG regiments in Codex: Armageddon not being all the IG regiments involved. (I don't have it handy to argue this point. I thought that most of the regiments and chapters were listed, but maybe I'm mis-remembering it)

Until I have the book in hand though, I'm now rather skeptical about this whole thing.

Lol, "FFG apologists"... nothing to apologize about, FFG is far more consistent than the rest of 40k

Regardless, half a million soldiers arriving in waves was mentioned in Inquisitor's Handbook. I imagine that this is only the first wave of Guard deployments, not the entirety.

BaronIveagh wrote:
To this writer, it seems a bit far fetched, considering it's a Crusade to retake the entire sector, and other, similar Crusades typically run into the billions of guardsmen and sometimes a dozen space marine companies.

a space marine company is usually a 100 marines, so a few dozen areonly 1200 or so

We have LIST Huzzah!


"The Disposition of the Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind at the Outset of the Achillus Crusade circa 7252.777.M41:

Notable Imperial Guard Units

Cadian Shock Troops: 2 Regiments

Terkarn Armoured: 1 Regiment

Iaxian Tithe Guard: 2 Regiments

Terrax Guard: 3 Regiments

Harakoni Warhawks: 1 Regiment

Mordian Iron Guard: 1 Regiment

29th Descaal Lancers: 1 Regiment

Calixis Sector Levy

Scintillan Heavy Infantry: 2 Regiments

Scintillan Guard: 3 Regiments

Maccabian 5th Drusus's Own" Guard

Maccabian 16th Janissaries

Mortressan 14th Highlanders: 1 Regiment

Gunmetalican 13th Armoured

Volg 3rd "Mercy Bringers"

Landrian 202nd Light Infantry

Monrass 25th Scythewind Recon

Merov Penitentiary Indenture: 4 Penal Legions

Gathalamor Heavy Grenadiers: 8 Battalions

Known Adeptus Astartes Contingents

Angels Vermillion: 1 Company

Space Wolves: 1 Battle Company

White Consuls: 2 Companies

Dark Sons: 3 Companies

Grey Knights: [Restricted]

Blood Swords: 2 Companies

Relictors: 1 Special Detachment

Storm Wardens: 7 Companies

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner.

Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas

Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery

Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies

Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory

Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission

Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions

Recorded Contingents of the Officio Assassinorum

Assassins: [Restricted]

Recorded Contingents of the Adeptus Mechanicus

Adeptus Titanicus - Legio Venator: 3 Battle Maniples, 2 Scout Maniples

Centurio Ordinatus: 1 Ordinatus

Skitarii Tech Guard: 4 Regiments

Ordo Reductor: 2 Siege Formations

Korvath Knight Household: 2 Formations

Legio Cybernetica: 1 Division

Recorded Contingents of the Imperial Fleet

+Vessels of Note

Belial - Emperor Class Battleship

Execution - Eternal Oberon Class Battleship

Proclamation of Wrath - Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser (lost with all hands 786.M41) (including the Crusade leader, Lord Militant Achilus)

Eternal Requiem - Exorcist Class Grand Cruiser

Caelestis Dictatio - Mars Class Battlecruiser

Recorded Contingents of the Departmento Munitorum

Reclamation & Provender Army Inc:

3 Pioneer Regiments

2 Field Enforcement Regiments

4 Labour Battalions

1 Administratum Assay Corps.

Recorded Contingents of the Holy Ordos of the Inquisition

CLASSIFIED

Recorded Contingents/Miscellaneous Forces

The Vassals of Rogue Trader Kazandus Lan (5 ships of the line, equiv/ 3 Regiments Militant)"


Hmm... I hate to say it, but the way it's written makes it look like this is all they have to start with to me.

And half a million is nothing. It'd be cut to pieces as they landed. Consider that China has twenty million people reach military age every year. Triple that for a whole planet of 3 billion. Multiply it by 10, and then multiply it by 25%.

Expect resistance to be up to 150,000,000 people on the ground. Fighting an entire planet is a rough buisness.

I imagine they have titans and Navy support and OOT nukes. That should be put into account.

Sure a 8 foot tall super human is going to kill 100 lesser men just with his chest hair. But a walking battle tank thats supoused to be poking the sky with it's head is going to feth stuff up.

Not really, all those half million people need to do is create a beachhead under cover of air support and orbital bombardment. The 150,000,000, if indeed the enemy is that strong (for reference, that's several times larger than all modern military forces combined, even with military reserves added in), would be spread out over the entire planet. If they weren't, the Guard would have a weak point they could land on and fortify for the next wave, and the next wave, and the next wave, and the wave after that.

Shadowbrand wrote:I imagine they have titans and Navy support and OOT nukes. That should be put into account.

Sure a 8 foot tall super human is going to kill 100 lesser men just with his chest hair. But a walking battle tank thats supoused to be poking the sky with it's head is going to feth stuff up.

Just remember, your titans are not going in right away: they don't make drop pods in titan size. Same thing with the Ordinatus: Sure, it blasts cities to ash in one shot (when it doesn't explode and blast your army to ash with one shot) but it takes weeks to move it.

The listed navy ships would not provide good support for a landing, though they would provide excellent support for escort operations. You're looking at a lot of launch capability, but not much by way of guns.

I like the wild breech of canon with the sudden return of the Legio Cybernetica myself. Didn't they get retconned? Something about Iron Men????


Mellissa, the problem is this is the total list. Everything they have in the Crusade. Heck, it numbers the guys who dig the ditches. There are no reserves. Hell, there are only two armored regiments.

That's the problem: when those half a million men hit, that's what we have.

*Raises hand* Question.

How are Titans even carried to a battlefield? By ship are they teleported like the tech terminator armor uses?

BaronIveagh wrote:"The Disposition of the Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind at the Outset of the Achillus Crusade circa 7252.777.M41:

Notable Imperial Guard Units

etc...

NOTABLE Guard Units

So, there must be loads more regiments that aren't worthy of note, then....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadowbrand wrote:*Raises hand* Question.

How are Titans even carried to a battlefield? By ship are they teleported like the tech terminator armor uses?

Super-heavy AdMech lifters the size of city blocks, apparently. So, basically a dropship, just not a very fast one, and then the titans have to be prepped once on the ground.

Titans are moved by dropship. In *let the galaxy burn* series of short stories, two titans are landed in that way.

They have assassin support and grey knights, so supposedly that'd be a lot more to help out. Plus remember that these forces are simply Of Note. There could be millions of unspecialised troops that are not of note.

What troubles me is only 3 Pioneer Regiments and 4 Labour Battalions... thats not much of a tail, really...

Something to remember is Regiments are not consistent. The Administratum tends to measure them in some sort of combat effectiveness value, IIRC, but a regiment of Harakoni Warhawks might only be 1000 men, but every one of those is nearly at Stormtrooper level (Imperium, not Galactic Empire). The Valhallans apparently have a regiment of something like 100-150 thousand men.

ArbitorIan wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:"The Disposition of the Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind at the Outset of the Achillus Crusade circa 7252.777.M41:

Notable Imperial Guard Units

etc...

NOTABLE Guard Units

So, there must be loads more regiments that aren't worthy of note, then....

Point. It's likely that there are probably many times more actual regiments (and unlisted PDF forces?) taking part in the fighting, but even then it seems woefully under strength for an entire sector.

Now: this is just my interpretation, mind you:

In this context, I would assume notable not to mean that they were particularly valorous, but notable in that they represented a measurable force. (Thus we're not mentioning things like attached ogryns or ratlings or anything like that, as there are not enough of them to be worth mentioning.)



List break down:



Notable Imperial Guard Units (Since the notable units are not named, I'm interpreting this to mean there are this many units with forces worth listing)

Cadian Shock Troops: 2 Regiment

Terkarn Armoured: 1 Regiment

Iaxian Tithe Guard: 2 Regiments

Terrax Guard: 3 Regiments

Harakoni Warhawks: 1 Regiment

Mordian Iron Guard: 1 Regiment

29th Descaal Lancers: 1 Regiment



Calixis Sector Levy (PDF levies, in other words, or units raised specifically for this Crusade)

Scintillan Heavy Infantry: 2 Regiments (Nice to see heavy infantry used in 40k again.)

Scintillan Guard: 3 Regiments

Maccabian 5th Drusus's Own" Guard

Maccabian 16th Janissaries

Mortressan 14th Highlanders: 1 Regiment

Gunmetalican 13th Armoured (We only have two armored units??? Seriously?Huh?)

Volg 3rd "Mercy Bringers"

Landrian 202nd Light Infantry

Monrass 25th Scythewind Recon

Merov Penitentiary Indenture: 4 Penal Legions

Gathalamor Heavy Grenadiers: 8 Battalions



Known Adeptus Astartes Contingents (needs no explanation)

Angels Vermillion: 1 Company

Space Wolves: 1 Battle Company

White Consuls: 2 Companies

Dark Sons: 3 Companies

Grey Knights: [Restricted]

Blood Swords: 2 Companies

Relictors: 1 Special Detachment

Storm Wardens: 7 Companies

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner.



Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas

Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery (approx 200 sisters)

Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies (approx 800 sisters)

Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory (1000 sisters)

Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission (a few squads)

Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions (a few more squads)

Recorded Contingents of the Officio Assassinorum

Assassins: [Restricted]



Recorded Contingents of the Adeptus Mechanicus

Adeptus Titanicus - Legio Venator: 3 Battle Maniples, 2 Scout Maniples (Approximatly 9-15 Battle Titans, 6-10 scout titans)

Centurio Ordinatus: 1 Ordinatus (1 ord is still one frikkin ord, baby!)

Skitarii Tech Guard: 4 Regiments

Ordo Reductor: 2 Siege Formations (Probably equiv 2 heavy bombardment regiments IG)

Korvath Knight Household: 2 Formations (Nice to see Knights in use again)

Legio Cybernetica: 1 Division (We have just lost cabin pressure. For those who don't remember: the Legio Cybernetica is/was the adMech's war robot branch. You know, the 'forbidden silica animus'?)





Recorded Contingents of the Imperial Fleet

+Vessels of Note (Lack of cruisers would seem to be offset by the Rogue Trader listed later as having 5 ships of the line. Interestingly, no SM vessels or escort squadrons appear in this list. Storm Wardens don't have ships???)

Belial - Emperor Class Battleship

Execution Eternal - Oberon Class Battleship

Proclamation of Wrath - Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser (lost with all hands 786.M41) (including the Crusade leader, Lord Militant Achilus) [oops, i wonder how that happened?]

Eternal Requiem - Exorcist Class Grand Cruiser

Caelestis Dictatio - Mars Class Battlecruiser







Recorded Contingents of the Departmento Munitorum (These units would only be 'of note' for their valor if things have really gone wrong)

Reclamation & Provender Army Inc:

3 Pioneer Regiments

2 Field Enforcement Regiments

4 Labour Battalions

1 Administratum Assay Corps.



Recorded Contingents of the Holy Ordos of the Inquisition

CLASSIFIED



Recorded Contingents/Miscellaneous Forces

The Vassals of Rogue Trader Kazandus Lan (5 ships of the line, equiv/ 3 Regiments Militant)



Edit: Actually, Valhallan regiments are supposedly about 5,000 men, normally. The 'average' full strength IG reiment seems to lay between 3-10 thousand men.

Actually, the Legio Cybernetica were never and still aren't Silica Animus. They're Dreadnought chassis with a biological brain like a more advanced Servitor. Thats how it always was.

DapperAnarchist wrote:Actually, the Legio Cybernetica were never and still aren't Silica Animus. They're Dreadnought chassis with a biological brain like a more advanced Servitor. Thats how it always was.

The Cataphact class is basically a dreadnought chassis. Most of the others are more akin to scaled down titan designs, however, the 'Organic Camouflage' optional system implies that there are robots capable of passing as human, at least at first glance.

" What makes a Robot different from an unoccupied Dreadnought ... is its cortex. This is an artificial brain of sorts, which is constructed from artificial proteins and enzymes. This cortex is imprinted with simple maintenance and movement routines - a rudimentary 'mind'." - 40,000 Compendium, Page 97

"The Cortex: structured gobs of bioplastic, products of lost technology." - 40,000 Compendium, Page 103.

This is not a servitor and from the description contains no human tissues.

Presumably, the Space Marines would move from planet to planet one at a tie, plus, you only need 1 Scout squad for every IG company to make an unstoppable force.

I think this is definitely only a partial list of forces, as from the BFG fluff standpoint the listing of 2 battlships, 2 grand cruisers, and 1 battle cruiser is a woefully small force as well. There would be dozens of cruisers, light cruisers, and escorts of various types, to say nothing of the transports that would be following in their wake.

Well, this is the crux of the matter: the entire crusade is supposed to be going on in secret, particularly from the Sectors that are supplying it.

Personally, I think the idea is an oxymoron. If you have enough people for it to succeed, it's not going to be a secret long. If you have few enough people for it to be secret, you can't possibly win.

(though you left out the rogue trader's forces which seemingly include 5 cruisers.)

Practically, this list is probably the best army you can put together and expect total secrecy, even with Inquisitorial backing. Any given planet would probably be mincemeat, but dividing it into three fronts and trying to fight across the entire sector with it is probably near impossible.

BaronIveagh wrote:Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas
Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery (approx 200 sisters)
Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies (approx 800 sisters)
Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory (1000 sisters)
Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission (a few squads)
Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions (a few more squads)

To further the point, these numbers are not an approximation but the maximum number of Sisters who might be deployed. Indeed, the vast majority of Orders are unable to field a full Commandery, let alone a Preceptory.

Æscholt wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Recorded Contingents of the Adepta Sororitas
Order of the Valorous Heart: 1 Commandery (approx 200 sisters)
Order of the Bloody Rose: 4 Commanderies (approx 800 sisters)
Order of the Argent Shroud: 1 Preceptory (1000 sisters)
Order of the Fiery Tear: 1 Mission (a few squads)
Order of the Crimson Oath: 2 Missions (a few more squads)

To further the point, these numbers are not an approximation but the maximum number of Sisters who might be deployed. Indeed, the vast majority of Orders are unable to field a full Commandery, let alone a Preceptory.

Argent Shroud, Bloody Rose, and Valorous Heart are major orders-- their numbers are, at bare minimum, into the tens if not hundreds of thousands (and that's the lowest end of the spectrum-- I estimate that they're in the millions at least). While minor orders MIGHT be that small, there's no real evidence that the majority of them are. The information we have is incredibly vague-- even a rough estimate of the total number of Sororitas is impossible.

Would the size of a crusade not depend on the estimated threat?
Do we have a list of the opposing forces too?

Until we know what these units are facing, no way to decide theyre too few.

Melissia wrote:

Æscholt wrote:To further the point, these numbers are not an approximation but the maximum number of Sisters who might be deployed. Indeed, the vast majority of Orders are unable to field a full Commandery, let alone a Preceptory.

Argent Shroud, Bloody Rose, and Valorous Heart are major orders-- their numbers are, at bare minimum, into the tens if not hundreds of thousands (and that's the lowest end of the spectrum-- I estimate that they're in the millions at least). While minor orders MIGHT be that small, there's no real evidence that the majority of them are. The information we have is incredibly vague-- even a rough estimate of the total number of Sororitas is impossible.

There are three Major Orders, each of which has "several thousand warriors". Not "tens if not hundreds or thousands", but several thousand. To me, this indicates the fighting strength for each major Order to be somewhat less than 10 000.
So, while the Orders of the Argent Shroud, Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart might be able to field such numbers (assuming that noe of the Orders of Our Martyred Lady, Sacred Rose and Ebon Chalice are major Orders instead), they still would not have fielded more, as a Preceptory numbers "up to 1,000 Battle Sisters" and a Commandery "up to 200".
And regarding other Orders, the "many lesser sisterhoods" that aren't part of the big 3 have each "around a hundred or so Battle Sisters", far deficient of the 200 necessary for the maximum size Commandery.

As an aside, taking "many" to mean "1 000" and "several" to mean "10" (which is somewhat overestimating things in my book, but yours may vary), we get a result of approximately 130 000 Battle Sisters in the Imperium, which is even fewer than the number of Space Marines.

Æscholt wrote:There are three Major Orders

Well, there went all of your credibility.

For the record, by the way, the Major Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas are as follows:

Order of the Argent Shroud
Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Fiery Heart (later renamed Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of the Valorous Heart

As for numbers, the major orders vary over time, from a few thousand to many thousands depending on the fortune of the Order at that given time. That is ALL we know. There's no context to reveal what they mean by "many thousands" (and yes, that is the exact quote, there is no "several thousand warriors" in the codex). Is nine thousand many thousands, or several? Well, we don't know. Is a hundred thousand many thousands? Undoubtedly.

Well, everyone picked up on the word 'notable,' but what about 'outset'? If those were the forces at the beginning of the crusade it is entirely possible that many more arrived later on, as is pretty standard. They may have had less than 1 million at the outset, but what about the 'midset' or 'endset'?

Of course, it could also mean that there were less later on, after casualties...

Melissia wrote:

Æscholt wrote:There are three Major Orders

Well, there went all of your credibility.

Are you sure that wasn't yours?

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, 5th Edition.
Page 120, "The Sisters of Battle" section, second paragraph:There are three major Orders of Adepta Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters.

Melissia wrote:For the record, by the way, the Major Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas are as follows:

Order of the Argent Shroud
Order of the Bloody Rose
Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Fiery Heart (later renamed Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of the Valorous Heart

As for numbers, the major orders vary over time, from a few thousand to many thousands. That is ALL we know. There's no context to reveal what they mean by "many thousands" (and yes, that is the exact quote, there is no "several thousand warriors" in the codex). Is nine thousand many thousands, or several? Is a hundred thousand many thousands? Undoubtedly.

As we continue, would you be so kind as so cite page references for your statements? If you are going to just brush my quotes aside in the guise of "credibility", then I think I deserve to know where yours are coming from.
I would personally have assume that the three major Orders were the Order of the Ebon Chalice, the Order of the Argent Shroud, and the Order of Valorous Heart. They, along with the Order of Our Martyred Lady, were the initial four Orders Militant after the convents were divided (Codex: Witch Hunters, page 6), but the Order of Our Martyred Lady suffered "grievous" losses on Armageddon (C:WH, page 7), so I would imagine that they would be someone reduced in number.

Yes, actually I would be so kind.

Codex: Witch Hunters, Page 6.

The rulebook contradicts every piece of fluff for the Sisters ever released, so I count that as a clerical error rather htan a changed piece of fluff until I see some evidence to the contrary (I haven't).

Rulebook>Codex: Witch Hunters, Melissia.


Fluff was altered, deal with it.

Kanluwen wrote:Rulebook>Codex: Witch Hunters, Melissia.


Fluff was altered, deal with it.

Except of course that the codex overrides the rulebook when the two conflict.

The codex is still the primary fluff source for each army, deal with it.


Also? This isn't a retcon, it's just a typo.

Melissia wrote:Yes, actually I would be so kind.
Codex: Witch Hunters, Page 6.
The rulebook contradicts every piece of fluff for the Sisters ever released, so I count that as a clerical error rather htan a changed piece of fluff until I see some evidence to the contrary (I haven't).

Uh-huh.
So, when the phrase "major Order" fails to appear on that page, it obviously means that there are 6. When your "many thousands" quote actually reads "numbers within the Orders Militant waxed and waned, varying from a couple of thousand warriors to many thousands", that clearly means that there are in fact millions of Sisters in the Orders.
And when background information in the main rulebook, published five years after the relevant codex was released, gives us sufficient information to make a rough estimate as to the total number of Adepta Sororitas, that fluff is undoubtedly a clerical error.


Melissia, you are free to discount whatever elements of GW's fluff you want for the sake of your own personal canon, but the background sections of whatever books Games Workshop put out are still part of the 'official' canon, which is what I understood we were discussing here.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Rulebook>Codex: Witch Hunters, Melissia.


Fluff was altered, deal with it.

Except of course that the codex overrides the rulebook when the two conflict.

The codex is still the primary fluff source for each army Alpharius, deal with it.


Also? This isn't a retcon, it's just a typo.

Actually, an army book is not "the primary fluff source" when the army in question doesn't have a 'current' Codex.


But good try.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and also?

"The Codex overrides the Rulebook when the two conflict" isn't true.

It's only true when the Codex is more current than the Rulebook".

They even say as much in the latest WHFB rulebook.

Æscholt wrote:So, when the phrase "major Order" fails to appear on that page

Even by my standards, you are being unbelievably dense. So apparently you didn't actually read the text? Because you know, it mentions these six long before it ever mentions the Minor Orders. And of course the fact that it says "Though the original six orders are by far the most numerous [...] the new Lesser Orders Militant, or Orders Minoris[...]" in the section about minor orders rather strongly defines the original six as the major orders, and other "subsidiary" orders as the minor/lesser orders.

You are wrong. Deal with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:They even say as much in the latest WHFB rulebook.

Wrong game system, Joe.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Rulebook>Codex: Witch Hunters, Melissia.


Fluff was altered, deal with it.

Except of course that the codex overrides the rulebook when the two conflict.

The codex is still the primary fluff source for each army Alpharius, deal with it.

I'm sorry, what are you talking about, and why are you addressing it to me?

Wrong name.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:They even say as much in the latest WHFB rulebook.

Wrong game system, Joe.

Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

You can whine all you want, but Sisters have had their background revised. Probably because GW is trying to find exactly what they want to do with an army that really has no place on or even near the battlefield other than to satisfy some ridiculous cliche of gaming that if you have males, you'll also need "Hurr, Boobedwarriors!".

You can either deal with it and stop crying about it(you know--the grown up way to do things) or you can throw a temper tantrum anytime someone cites the revised background GW put out.

Kanluwen wrote:Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

Yes, their game system-- WHFB. Not their other game system, 40k.

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

Yes, their game system-- WHFB. Not their other game system, 40k.

And yet, considering they use the same basic system and ideals for each when conflicts arise...

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

Yes, their game system-- WHFB. Not their other game system, 40k.

And yet, considering they use the same basic system and ideals for each when conflicts arise...

The system 40k uses is "if you can't agree just roll dice to decide". Here's mine:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Speaks to the creators' ideas of how their system works, cupcake.

Yes, their game system-- WHFB. Not their other game system, 40k.

And yet, considering they use the same basic system and ideals for each when conflicts arise...

The system 40k uses is "if you can't agree just roll dice to decide". Here's mine:

Pretty sure your way of dealing with any kind of disagreements is:


You bring no evidence, outside of something that has been retconned, and do nothing but stubbornly insist that you're right--when it's clearly been y'know...retconned.

Your argument for "a typo" is ridiculous, given that a typo when basically copy/pasting the same background text that's appeared for years in the Codex: Witchhunters is pretty ridiculous.

They purposely changed the background. End of story.

What's interesting is that everyone is arguing over how many battle sisters might be there, but not one is complaining how few space marines there are.

Reguardless of how many sisters a order might, feasibly field, there are also more wars going on then this one: One would imagine that the sisters not here are involved in any one of the millions of wars the Imperium runs daily.

Remember that other then the nameless notable IG units that start the list and some of the AdMech units, almost all of these would have probably come from Ixnaid, Scarus, and Calixis Sectors. These may represent what local commands could spare.

Hi guys!

Remember when this thread was about the Jericho Reach Crusade? I do. Such fond memories...

So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

Modquisition on.

Dakka Rule #1 applies. Politeness IS required. You can argue the points without insulting other posters. If you can't do that then not posting on this particular thread is your best option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just as a side note, the Sabbat Crusade had over 2B IG assigned to it (sourcebook Sabbat Crusade Handbook detailing said crusade's capmaigns and major battles).

Fiend wrote:Hi guys!

Remember when this thread was about the Jericho Reach Crusade? I do. Such fond memories...

So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

Yes. The Tranch War was described as having single landings be a quarter million-- what a single landing is is hard to say, but it could very well be a single trip by the various orbital lander ships dropping off a quarter million, then going back up to fetch more for the next landing. The Tranch War was (And I suppose technically still is) almost the definition of a meat grinder war after all.

If this was ALL the crusade has, it's a very minor one to say the least.

BaronIveagh wrote:What's interesting is that everyone is arguing over how many battle sisters might be there, but not one is complaining how few space marines there are.

Reguardless of how many sisters a order might, feasibly field, there are also more wars going on then this one: One would imagine that the sisters not here are involved in any one of the millions of wars the Imperium runs daily.

Remember that other then the nameless notable IG units that start the list and some of the AdMech units, almost all of these would have probably come from Ixnaid, Scarus, and Calixis Sectors. These may represent what local commands could spare.

"How few Space Marines there are" is pretty much the norm though, Baron. They don't usually gather up full Chapters worth of them for campaigns. The Sabbat Worlds Crusade, in full swing, had maybe 400 Marines totalled--and the majority of them were in the form of the Iron Snakes and White Scars doing whatever they felt like.

The only real campaign I can think of, in recent memory, wherein full Chapters took to the field all at once?
The 13th Black Crusade.

Fiend wrote:Hi guys!

Remember when this thread was about the Jericho Reach Crusade? I do. Such fond memories...

So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

Ok, Kanwulan, now, consider how many Space Marines there were compared to IG. Do you see the oddity I'm driving at here?

The problem is this crusade is fairly 'new' by Imperial Standards, only about 30 years old. And it's on three fronts, so all numbers get divided by 3.

For those unsure of the opposition, once again: 'nids, Tau, fortress worlds manned by CSM. Do you think that any of these besides tau will be showing up in sizes other then large? The nids have seemingly rolled up the Northern (Orpheus Salient) front almost back to the the Imperium held warp portal. CSMs seem content to have the Imperium come to them for the moment, and the Tau are still massing for their counter offensive, but it's looking big.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Fiend wrote:Hi guys!

Remember when this thread was about the Jericho Reach Crusade? I do. Such fond memories...

So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

Ok, Kanluwen, now, consider how many Space Marines there were compared to IG. Do you see the oddity I'm driving at here?

The problem is this crusade is fairly 'new' by Imperial Standards, only about 30 years old. And it's on three fronts, so all numbers get divided by 3.

For those unsure of the opposition, once again: 'nids, Tau, fortress worlds manned by CSM. Do you think that any of these besides Tau will be showing up in sizes other then large? The nids have seemingly rolled up the Northern (Orpheus Salient) front almost back to the the Imperium held warp portal. CSMs seem content to have the Imperium come to them for the moment, and the Tau are still massing for their counter offensive, but it's looking big.

It's a pretty easy dilemma to solve though. What Chapters are involved in the Jericho Reach Crusade? Is it in an area where there's large numbers of recruiting worlds for these Chapters, etc etc.

Using Kastorel-Novem as an example--the Raven Guard devoted two whole Companies(which is absurdly generous of them--as they usually just field two to three squads of specialists and a number of Scouts) to the campaign.
Why?

Because if they broke past Kastorel-Novem and kept building strength, the Waagh! would be heading right for Deliverance.

BaronIveagh wrote:They listed 36 guard units as being in the initial crusade. Math at 5,000 men per regiment was 180,000 men. 10,000 was 360,000 men.

Currently there seems to be some back peddling and the FFG apologists are offering that it will be like the IG regiments in Codex: Armageddon not being all the IG regiments involved. (I don't have it handy to argue this point. I thought that most of the regiments and chapters were listed, but maybe I'm mis-remembering it)

Until I have the book in hand though, I'm now rather skeptical about this whole thing.

Very very late and probably already answered, but I thought Guard regiments were larger than that?

Depends on the regiment.

Assuming five full platoons per company, and then ten companies per regiment, that's still only 2750 in an infantry regiment. But I don't if five platoons in a company is light, or how many companies are in a regiment, etc.

It tends to depend on the planet the regiment was raised from, the history of the regiment, etc.

The Elysian 99th Regiment, for example, is(on paper) a complete regiment--despite them having personnel more appropriate for a Company.

Melissia wrote:Depends on the regiment.

Assuming five full platoons per company, and then ten companies per regiment, that's still only 2750 in an infantry regiment. But I don't if five platoons in a company is light, or how many companies are in a regiment, etc.

Well, if we were to look at the old guard codex, their example of half the Cadian 8th had 6-8 platoons in it (I forget now), and a lot of other stuff too. Using that, I'd say it was an all right bet that your average regiment was somewhere between 4,000 and 8,000 men.
Still, even that isn't really that much when you consider how the Imperium makes war.

So let's go the easy way for simplicity's sake.

1 regiment = 10 companies + RCS (~5,555 men)
1 company = 10 platoons + CCS (~555 men)
1 platoon = 5 squads + PCS (55 men)

Mind you that's a pure infantry force, with heavy weapons scattered throughout the various squads rather than in their own dedicated squad.

Fiend wrote:So does anyone else think that since the forces were described as 'at the Outset' that there were possibly more later on?

I think that unless the crusade goes on for a significant length of time (many decades, or slipping into the centuries), it's unlikely. Additional forces would have been listed, even if they didn't arrive on time for the kick-off.
I'm pretty sure the ridiculously small force can be attributed to a gross miscalculation of scale. Unless the crusade takes it's time and levies new regiments before leaving each conquered planet, it would be unlikely to get particularly far.
Unless of course the 40K writers ignore their error, the crusade brings the entire region to compliance and they all get home in time for Emperor-mas.

Kanluwen wrote:The only real campaign I can think of, in recent memory, wherein full Chapters took to the field all at once?
The 13th Black Crusade.

And the Third War for Armaggedon, and the defence of Ichar IV from Hive Fleet Kraken. All three happened within a 7 year period as well, although "the Time of Ending" is hardly typical.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Very very late and probably already answered, but I thought Guard regiments were larger than that?

It varies greatly. Newly founded regiments can be from a few hundred men to several tens of thousands. The Valhallen 18th Light Infantry has over 120 000 men, but the "typical" number is several thousand.

Works for me.

If we take that as an average (which we will) that's a massively inefficient amount of guardsmen for the job in hand. Then again, it's likely that this was an advance regiment, or something.

Kanwulan, these chapters are involved.

Angels Vermillion,Space Wolves,White Consuls,Dark Sons, Grey Knights, Blood Swords, Relictors, Storm Wardens

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner. (meaning an honor guard of a squad or two from each chapter, unless I miss my guess).

The only Space Marine chapter that recruits anyplace near by are the Storm Wardens, who recruit from the Calixis Sector on the opposite side of the warp gate. And they sent seven companies, so that's a deployment of most of their chapter. The Jericho Reach has been cut off entirely from the Imperium for five thousand years.

Well, I don't know about any of the other chapters, but I know that the Space Wolves at least are numerous enough to send a lot of warriors.
However, I'd still put it at no more than 300 or so marines.

BaronIveagh wrote:Kanluwen, these chapters are involved.

Angels Vermillion,Space Wolves,White Consuls,Dark Sons, Grey Knights, Blood Swords, Relictors, Storm Wardens

Also elements of the Death Spectres, Subjugators, Disciples of Caliban, and Iron Snakes represented in a sanctioned Crusader Company as guardians of the Holy Crusade Banner. (meaning an honor guard of a squad or two from each chapter, unless I miss my guess).

The only Space Marine chapter that recruits anyplace near by are the Storm Wardens, who recruit from the Calixis Sector on the opposite side of the warp gate. And they sent seven companies, so that's a deployment of most of their chapter. The Jericho Reach has been cut off entirely from the Imperium for five thousand years.

OT really fast: Spell the name right please. It's kinda getting irksome correcting it every time.

So, in terms of the Chapters...I recognize only a good two or three of them as having any heavy background exposure to work from: Space Wolves, White Consuls, and Relictors.

Grey Knights aren't technically a Chapter(being that they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, and pretty much answer only to the Ordo's puritanical higher-ups etc etc), so they're not going to be something that will be easy to get some background information on, in terms of their campaign deployment--especially since they tend to be a force that is very very very rarely fielded en masse.

Disciples of Caliban I can give you some hefty information on, since they were a rarity in terms of their formation(one of the few times the High Lords of Terra have bent to an Astartes Chapter's request to have a Successor created outside of a mass Founding of Successors) and the specificity of their formation(created pretty much exclusively to hunt down Cypher).

But to put it lightly:
This Crusade could just be an aberration, in terms of Astartes support v. Guard support(Crusades tend to get alot more support from the Astartes if Traitor Astartes are present, as an aside that I've noticed).

Kanluwen wrote:
OT really fast: Spell the name right please. It's kinda getting irksome correcting it every time.

So, in terms of the Chapters...I recognize only a good two or three of them as having any heavy background exposure to work from: Space Wolves, White Consuls, and Relictors.

Grey Knights aren't technically a Chapter(being that they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, and pretty much answer only to the Ordo's puritanical higher-ups etc etc), so they're not going to be something that will be easy to get some background information on, in terms of their campaign deployment--especially since they tend to be a force that is very very very rarely fielded en masse.

Disciples of Caliban I can give you some hefty information on, since they were a rarity in terms of their formation(one of the few times the High Lords of Terra have bent to an Astartes Chapter's request to have a Successor created outside of a mass Founding of Successors) and the specificity of their formation(created pretty much exclusively to hunt down Cypher).

But to put it lightly:
This Crusade could just be an aberration, in terms of Astartes support v. Guard support(Crusades tend to get alot more support from the Astartes if Traitor Astartes are present, as an aside that I've noticed).

While I agree about the traitor legions = more astartes, the problem is still this force is not going to be able to make it's first planetary assault (if there is meaningful resistance. Obviously hunter gatherers are not going to be able to fight Titans very well). The Astartes are great for precise strikes and holding key objectives, but they aren't made for wars of attrition against things like the swarms of the great devourer or the military might of entire planets.

Except you're thinking of a "Fortress World manned by Chaos Marines" as being similar to say, Cadia.

It won't be. It'll be a planet that has some key strongpoints that will allow a small force to hold off a numerically superior one with minimal casualties. Cracking that kind of nut would be a cakewalk for Astartes.

I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

Kanluwen wrote:

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

I see. Your point = traitors are disadvantaged by staticness, while our Angels of Death have the advantage of the surgical strike. I'd say that's true, depending on the number traitor marines. But their numbers are usually small.

Its looking like we don't even need the Guard to win this war.

Kanluwen wrote:Except you're thinking of a "Fortress World manned by Chaos Marines" as being similar to say, Cadia.

It won't be. It'll be a planet that has some key strongpoints that will allow a small force to hold off a numerically superior one with minimal casualties. Cracking that kind of nut would be a cakewalk for Astartes.

"On worlds long forsaken by the Imperium, the slaves of the Dark Gods of Chaos reign and at the Reach’s heart, unsuspected at the Crusade’s outset, they have created a blasphemous domain ruled over by Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords, where the quixotic laws of the warp rather than those of fragile reality now hold sway." - DW, pg 322.

They aren't just any fortress worlds. They're daemon fortress worlds. How nice.

that and the Imperium has been stalled just short of them, rather then besieging them directly.

Ok, I'd like to read the source material now. Is DW actually short for Deathwing? As in an RPG book called Deathwing? Or what is the full title of the source?

DW in this case is the Deathwatch RPG rulebook, which was released at Gencon and to your FLGS hopefully sometime in the next month.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except you're thinking of a "Fortress World manned by Chaos Marines" as being similar to say, Cadia.

It won't be. It'll be a planet that has some key strongpoints that will allow a small force to hold off a numerically superior one with minimal casualties. Cracking that kind of nut would be a cakewalk for Astartes.

"On worlds long forsaken by the Imperium, the slaves of the Dark Gods of Chaos reign and at the Reach’s heart, unsuspected at the Crusade’s outset, they have created a blasphemous domain ruled over by Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords, where the quixotic laws of the warp rather than those of fragile reality now hold sway." - DW, pg 322.

They aren't just any fortress worlds. They're daemon fortress worlds. How nice.

that and the Imperium has been stalled just short of them, rather then besieging them directly.

Aaaaaaaand?

The Cadians and Dark Angels both mount small incursions to clear out Daemon Fortress Worlds within the Warp every few decades--as training exercises.

The place being "a Daemon Fortress World" actually makes it a bit easier, to be honest. Mass exorcism the place from orbit, the real big advantage the defenders had(Daemonic reinforcements that can strike anywhere at anytime on the planet's surface) is nullified and you're left facing an understaffed series of forts manned by(for all intents and purposes) common thugs and cultists who've been shanghaied into becoming Chaos Marines.

Thanks baron. Is Deathwatch a separate RPG from Dark Heresy or an expansion? I've not played DH, so this may be a silly question. But for a book that's supposed to be an RPG, you'd think they'd pay close attention to detail, like the number of troops in a crusade.

Deathwatch is, effectively, "Dark Heresy for Marines". It's the same system, but not quite an expansion.

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except you're thinking of a "Fortress World manned by Chaos Marines" as being similar to say, Cadia.

It won't be. It'll be a planet that has some key strongpoints that will allow a small force to hold off a numerically superior one with minimal casualties. Cracking that kind of nut would be a cakewalk for Astartes.

"On worlds long forsaken by the Imperium, the slaves of the Dark Gods of Chaos reign and at the Reach’s heart, unsuspected at the Crusade’s outset, they have created a blasphemous domain ruled over by Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords, where the quixotic laws of the warp rather than those of fragile reality now hold sway." - DW, pg 322.

They aren't just any fortress worlds. They're daemon fortress worlds. How nice.

that and the Imperium has been stalled just short of them, rather then besieging them directly.

Aaaaaaaand?

The Cadians and Dark Angels both mount small incursions to clear out Daemon Fortress Worlds within the Warp every few decades--as training exercises.

The place being "a Daemon Fortress World" actually makes it a bit easier, to be honest. Mass exorcism the place from orbit, the real big advantage the defenders had(Daemonic reinforcements that can strike anywhere at anytime on the planet's surface) is nullified and you're left facing an understaffed series of forts manned by(for all intents and purposes) common thugs and cultists who've been shanghaied into becoming Chaos Marines.

Before I ask where you got this information that Cadians were traveling into the Eye of Terror to raid daemon fortress worlds as a training operation (considering the rather rough reception that Space Marines get upon leaving daemon worlds) I have to ask, if a mass excorcism form orbit worked, why would Grey Knights ever land? And, I might be vague on this, but my understanding of exorcism in 40k was that it was a very time consuming process just to remove one daemon from one person.

If it's a Daemon world...the whole world is, in effect, a Daemonic entity and an entryway for the Daemonic infestation. Think of it like welding a door shut to prevent an invasion, rather than just trying to hold it shut by yourself.

A planet infested with Daemons is a different matter entirely, because each individual Daemon has to be dealt with individually.

Um.. Kanluwen, a daemon world is any planet that exists half in and half out of the warp. It's usually not a single entity, but rather a world where the barrier between the warp and reality has broken down.

"A daemon world is a planet twisted and corrupted by the power of Chaos and the warp from being trapped in a prolonged warp rift. Entwining the impossibilities of the warp and the reality of the physical realm, Daemon World's are not bound by the laws of physics, but by the whim of daemonic rulers and the emotions of mortals." - C: CD (pg 18)

There's actually various kinds of Daemon worlds. It's very rare, but there have been some(one's mentioned in the Ork Codex and Planetstrike also) wherein the planet is one gigantic entity.

Consider that these are in a warp rift, I'll figure them for the former rather then the latter.

Kanluwen wrote:There's actually various kinds of Daemon worlds. It's very rare, but there have been some(one's mentioned in the Ork Codex and Planetstrike also) wherein the planet is one gigantic entity.

There was also a referance in the Grey Knight series - Alaric and friends end up on an ex-AdMech planet that has reappeared, and is semi-sentient. As in: Elements of the terrain fight against them, and the planet itself is aware of them, but it's still just a planet. A ball of rock. It's just a planet with conciousness.

BaronIveagh wrote:Consider that these are in a warp rift, I'll figure them for the former rather then the latter.

What does the planet being in a rift have to do with what Kanluwen said? I fail to see how that prevents either or.

metallifan wrote:

What does the planet being in a rift have to do with what Kanluwen said? I fail to see how that prevents either or.

Since we have more examples of the former then the latter, it would be likely that these would probably be the more common type.

BaronIveagh wrote:

metallifan wrote:

What does the planet being in a rift have to do with what Kanluwen said? I fail to see how that prevents either or.

Since we have more examples of the former then the latter, it would be likely that these would probably be the more common type.

No. Stop beating around the bush and attempting to avoid answering my question. You said:

BaronIveagh wrote:Consider that these are in a warp rift, I'll figure them for the former rather then the latter.

Which is a pretty poor basis for refuting the possibility of a daemon world actually being a daemon/being posessed. I'd like to know just how you figure being in a warp rift would prevent a daemon world from being a daemon. Unless, as is the case, it wouldn't.

Kanluwen wrote:

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

I'd have to disagree there, there are several chapters/legions that are dedicated to that sort of fight. The Iron Warriors' fortress worlds, for example, are pretty much one giant network of strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness. Granted, they have several tens of millions of conscripted/enslaved soldiers working for them on each planet, but the point still stands. No cakewalk for Astartes, regardless of their alignment.

metallifan wrote:
Which is a pretty poor basis for refuting the possibility of a daemon world actually being a daemon/being posessed. I'd like to know just how you figure being in a warp rift would prevent a daemon world from being a daemon. Unless, as is the case, it wouldn't.

Because they're on the edges of the rift according to the map. Using the story from Planetkill as a reference, a demons world in that vein would be dead from insufficient warp energy to sustain it. Assuming I'm thinking of the right Grey Knights novel, the one in it got around this issue by merging with a nano-swarm.

If it's on the rim of a rift, then that's entirely different than a world being -in- a rift, as you first stated was the case. A sentient Daemon world IN the warp could exist as an entity until it was destroyed by an outside factor. A sentient Daemon world near a rift could -still- exist in realspace for short periods of about a week or so, before becoming too weak and having to phase out of reality again.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

I'd have to disagree there, there are several chapters/legions that are dedicated to that sort of fight. The Iron Warriors' fortress worlds, for example, are pretty much one giant network of strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness. Granted, they have several tens of millions of conscripted/enslaved soldiers working for them on each planet, but the point still stands. No cakewalk for Astartes, regardless of their alignment.

There's two Chapters/Legions "dedicated to that sort of fight".

Iron Warriors, who excel at knocking things down, and the Imperial Fists, who excel at actually building things to resist being knocked down.

And those "strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness" are defended by cultists and traitor guardsmen/fanatical zealots and controlled from a command center with the Iron Warriors directing the fight.

One drop assault on the people directing the fight, and it becomes a mop up operation against bunkers. Far, far, far less dangerous than assaulting an Iron Warrior directed killzone.

That's strange..Only 1600 marines? I think I killed more than that.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Fiend wrote:I love the Emperor's finest as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't call that a cakewalk. Not if manned by traitor Astartes.

I think the Astartes presence is large, but not out of hand. It seems reasonable for a large crusade, especially with the number of chapters contributing. The numbers do seem rather large when comparing to the Guard presence though...

Astartes are trash in static, defensive position fights. That's why, even on defense, most of the Loyalist Astartes tend towards "Let the Guard bear the brunt of it, then we drop pod a force down to shore up weakspots" as strategies.

I'd have to disagree there, there are several chapters/legions that are dedicated to that sort of fight. The Iron Warriors' fortress worlds, for example, are pretty much one giant network of strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness. Granted, they have several tens of millions of conscripted/enslaved soldiers working for them on each planet, but the point still stands. No cakewalk for Astartes, regardless of their alignment.

There's two Chapters/Legions "dedicated to that sort of fight".

Iron Warriors, who excel at knocking things down, and the Imperial Fists, who excel at actually building things to resist being knocked down.

And those "strongpoints, trenches, artillery positions and other assorted nastiness" are defended by cultists and traitor guardsmen/fanatical zealots and controlled from a command center with the Iron Warriors directing the fight.

One drop assault on the people directing the fight, and it becomes a mop up operation against bunkers. Far, far, far less dangerous than assaulting an Iron Warrior directed killzone.

I admitted the presence of Cultists/traitor Guardsmen in my post. Iron Warriors are also supreme fortress builders, easily comparable with the Fists, so their being typecast as "fortress breakers" is only one part of their military aspect. It is in a great part of their fluff, after all.
Also, referring to your drop-pod attack, they tried that on Istvaan, and the result was a stalemate. I won't say it wwas a massacre there, because technically it was due to the second "loyalist" wave that the Imperial Marines lost, but the point still stands.
Third, Iron Warriors do not use a single command point to control an entire planetary defence, as that opens them up to an orbital bombardment ending the campaign just like that, let alone Drop-podding Astartes. I can't remember it all that well, but I believe the previous CSM codex had some good fluff on Iron Warrior tactics, and generally speaking they have then numbers to be able to field more than one command centre, and that's not counting the SMs they have garrisoned in key locations, where conscripted infantry and daemon engines just aren't enough.

I can get what you're saying, and it makes excellent tactical sense, I just feel you are oversimplifying it too much. Sorry if I rambled, I am yet to put together a coherent set of ideas in word form. It was hell for my teachers.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
I admitted the presence of Cultists/traitor Guardsmen in my post. Iron Warriors are also supreme fortress builders, easily comparable with the Fists, so their being typecast as "fortress breakers" is only one part of their military aspect. It is in a great part of their fluff, after all.

They're good at creating "defensive positions". These don't necessarily equate to fortresses. A fortress is a singular location intended to be defended, whereas "defensive positions" ala the Iron Warriors are lengthy defensive lines shored up and intended to be lost if necessary.

Also, referring to your drop-pod attack, they tried that on Istvaan, and the result was a stalemate. I won't say it was a massacre there, because technically it was due to the second "loyalist" wave that the Imperial Marines lost, but the point still stands.

Ehh. The Drop-Site Massacre, as an aside, is kind of a big thing. The problem is that it wasn't assaulting a defensive position, but dropping onto what was(assumed) to be an undefended, unawares force. Once the Loyalists were down, a two prong attack went into motion where the Horusians mounted an assault and they also launched an orbital bombardment against the Loyalists.

Third, Iron Warriors do not use a single command point to control an entire planetary defence, as that opens them up to an orbital bombardment ending the campaign just like that, let alone Drop-podding Astartes. I can't remember it all that well, but I believe the previous CSM codex had some good fluff on Iron Warrior tactics, and generally speaking they have the numbers to be able to field more than one command centre, and that's not counting the SMs they have garrisoned in key locations, where conscripted infantry and daemon engines just aren't enough.

Well, the command point bit is an issue too. The "original" Iron Warriors probably do recognize the vulnerability of having a single command center, but the more recent recruits have no issues with it and see no harm for it.

Kanluwen wrote:
Well, the command point bit is an issue too. The "original" Iron Warriors probably do recognize the vulnerability of having a single command center, but the more recent recruits have no issues with it and see no harm for it.

I dunno: Warsmith Honsou in Dead Sky Black Sun used fairly good defensive tactics and was a 'new' recruit. (After all, he didn't know his fortress had a 'press to self destruct' button...)

Here's the thing, guys, they've had 5,000 years to dig in. Do you think they don't have a good defenses around their warp rift, even if it was built because of fighting one another?

Kanluwen wrote:
They're good at creating "defensive positions". These don't necessarily equate to fortresses. A fortress is a singular location intended to be defended, whereas "defensive positions" ala the Iron Warriors are lengthy defensive lines shored up and intended to be lost if necessary.

An excellent point. I would say though that there is plenty of evidence for fortresses built by the Iron Warriors, and that these are in general damn difficult to break, as fortifications go. I think there's some fluff on that in the old CSM codex, as well as the old SM codex, to a certain extent. You'd probably have to check, though.

Ehh. The Drop-Site Massacre, as an aside, is kind of a big thing. The problem is that it wasn't assaulting a defensive position, but dropping onto what was(assumed) to be an undefended, unawares force. Once the Loyalists were down, a two prong attack went into motion where the Horusians mounted an assault and they also launched an orbital bombardment against the Loyalists.

Yeah, I agree, I could have found a better example. Sorry about that, it was the first thing that came to mind.
Instead, I'll use that fluff in the new CSM codex which relates to a fortress world that was created by the Iron Warriors and has resisted a great many attacks from both Chaos and Loyalist marines. I believe the current tally is 12 resisted attacks, but again, it's probably a good idea if you check that.

Well, the command point bit is an issue too. The "original" Iron Warriors probably do recognize the vulnerability of having a single command center, but the more recent recruits have no issues with it and see no harm for it.

Not really as big an issue, as the new recruits will have been trained by the original Iron Warriors. A great deal of the upper ranks in the legion are the old guard, anyway, and so would use their legion's tactics as they were originally.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Well, the command point bit is an issue too. The "original" Iron Warriors probably do recognize the vulnerability of having a single command center, but the more recent recruits have no issues with it and see no harm for it.

I dunno: Warsmith Honsou in Dead Sky Black Sun used fairly good defensive tactics and was a 'new' recruit. (After all, he didn't know his fortress had a 'press to self destruct' button...)

Here's the thing, guys, they've had 5,000 years to dig in. Do you think they don't have a good defenses around their warp rift, even if it was built because of fighting one another?

Time passes differently in the Warp.

That 5,000 years real-space? It could've been 20 minutes for the planet's inhabitants.

Kanluwen wrote:
Time passes differently in the Warp.

That 5,000 years real-space? It could've been 20 minutes for the planet's inhabitants.

Or it could have totally run the other way and been 10,000 years (like in the Grey Knights novel)

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Time passes differently in the Warp.

That 5,000 years real-space? It could've been 20 minutes for the planet's inhabitants.

Or it could have totally run the other way and been 10,000 years (like in the Grey Knights novel)

Either way, it's a moot point as planets like Medrengard is undeniably massively fortified, showing that they must have had time to do it.