Holy jeez. Today I was up against a simple 1000 point list with my CSM against this freaking annoying WH list. This was his, IIRC

Cannoness with an inferno pistol
14 sister, 2 storm bolters
14 sisters, 2 storm bolters
14 sisters, 2 storm bolters
Some sort of =][= slaves that get to move an extra d6 if they aren't in combat and they had eviserators
2 Exorcists

Some things I noticed:
11 POINT 3+ SAVES!!!!!!!!
Melta pistol!
D6 Melta shots and 13 front armour!
Chainfists!
Initiative 4!

For how much they cost, sisters are freaking broken as feth! If I could get a three up save for 11 points, I'd take them in a heart beat!

What are your thoughts on them?

My list was..

Kharne
Lightning Claws termies (only 200 points, I thought, what the heck.)
Dreadnought with plasma cannon(ended up trying to dodge exorcist missiles the entire game and only killed a couple sisters)
10 marines, 2 plasma, rhino
10 marines, 2 melta, rhino
5 raptors with 2 flamers

I thought it was an okay list. I tried out some things I don't usually do, like dreads and raptors, kharne and lightning terminators....Owait, that's my whole army!

What was your list?

We all know the Sisters are Flamer and Melta heavy.

My list was..

Kharne
Lightning Claws termies (only 200 points, I thought, what the heck.)
Dreadnought with plasma cannon(ended up trying to dodge exorcist missiles the entire game and only killed a couple sisters)
10 marines, 2 plasma, rhino
10 marines, 2 melta, rhino
5 raptors with 2 flamers

I thought it was an okay list. I tried out some things I don't usually do, like dreads and raptors, kharne and lightning terminators....Owait, that's my whole army!

Mainly what you did wrong, is that you put, basically, half your army into your HQ, Termies, and a single Dreadnought, which has a chance of shooting at your own units, if I remember correctly.

13 Front Armor isn't that bad, but hoping that your melta guns would make it to the Exorcists is the worst thing you could have done. Instead of the termies, or dreadnought, you should have invested in some Devastators, or Obliterates, with Las cannons and have them focus down the Exorcists one at a time, because that's their only real anti-tank aside from their meltas.

The Inferno pistol isn't even that good because, really, it's a half assed pistol and not all that good, from what I've seen.

The sisters didn't even take melta's, which is worry some in it's own way, and instead took storm bolters, when their just bolters that can shoot 2 shots at full 24 inches, and can't even touch the Rino's 12 front armor.

The Dreadnought would have been better off with the assault (or auto) cannon because Plasma cannons can scatter like hell. Sure they'll get armor saves, but it's better hititng them most of the time instead of some of the time.

Raptors? I've heard a lot of bad things about them, so I hardly know what to say about them, as a guard player, I just give the FRFSRF! Order and don't worry about them all that much.

:shrug:

Yeah, I had no idea what to expect. Witch hunters can go all kinds of ways, and he just happened to decide on exorcists

The raptors were like a filler for 110 points I had left over, and I didn't really put too much in them for that reason.

He told me on the phone he was doing combat spam, so I prepared for a horde-y ish build. I'll try something like a land raider next time. It can't be pen'd and it can easily fell an exorcist.

The terminators were actually great fun. They scored 17 unsaved wounds in an assault with the help of kharne, which destroyed an entire unit of Sobs in a single turn. I really like them, and I plan on taking them again soon. The only thing I didn't like was their lack of shooting attack.

The rhino's were both out on turn 2 because of the second exorcist punching them with like 4 missiles each turn :(

Honestly, I could tell by turn two that I lost.

Samus_aran115 wrote:For how much they cost, sisters are freaking broken as feth! If I could get a three up save for 11 points, I'd take them in a heart beat!

They're also WS, S and I 3, and T 3. For that, they're only four points cheaper than a Space Marine was at the time. They also don't get to take any heavy weapon with a range longer than a flamer template, and have a minimum squad size of 10, meaning they can't get anything comparable to the Space Marine las/plas squad in a Razorback without burning Elites slots.

wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Always ask to see their list, and ask to see their codex, and if they refuse, ask the store owner to borrow a copy to check on something.

Cambak wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Always ask to see their list, and ask to see their codex, and if they refuse, ask the store owner to borrow a copy to check on something.

I'll call him out on it tommorow. Jerk. I was resolving combat with him at the same time for no freaking reason then. That dead terminator should have never happened, nor should have a couple other things...Also, only repentia can take Eviserators, iirc. Not to mention I should have been resolving all combats with a 3+ to hit!

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Ask him for the codex/army list, as has been said above, and if you think he's lying, and he refuses to show you the list/codex, remember what Kharn does best - Beats the feth outta people. Use his strength while yelling BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD and put an end to their snide ideals.

JSK-Fox wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Ask him for the codex/army list, as has been said above, and if you think he's lying, and he refuses to show you the list/codex, remember what Kharn does best - Beats the feth outta people. Use his strength while yelling BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD and put an end to their snide ideals.

Kharn was amazing. Seriously. I'm never taking anything else. I got 15 hits with him. I think I got about 12 wounds also (2+). If he had 5 toughness, I'd love him more though.

Also, he had a 2+ save in 3rd edition, which I'd gladly take :3

If they don't show you the codex, just remember, the Blood God loves you, so Kharn is invincible with 100 attacks and strength D, with AP -1. Oh, and he moves 200 inches and is fearless.

Plus he can fly

I think I'll play another game with him. Using Imperial guard and Plasma Pcs's. As much as I love kharne, IG seems like it could handle WH better. I felt severely out-modeled. He had at least three times as many models as me

Samus_aran115 wrote:Plus he can fly

I think I'll play another game with him. Using Imperial guard and Plasma Pcs's. As much as I love kharne, IG seems like it could handle WH better. I felt severely out-modeled. He had at least three times as many models as me

If he pulls the stunt again, say you have creed and Outflank a Squadron of 3 Leman Russ Demolishers with Plasma sponson, Dozerblades, Extra armor, hull mounted las cannon and Pintle mounted Stormbolter.

Because it's entirely legal.

If you're ever, EVER unsure of something outside of a tournament, check the rules. Plenty of people will try to cheat if they know you're unfamiliar with their army.

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Are you sure you're not getting things mixed up? The Repentia (the women with chainsaws) have a different stat-line to the rank and file Sisters.

This is actually kind of funny too. I played a doubles with him as my partner and both of our opponents fell for his lies So did I, I guess.

Everytime I play IG, I get this "powerful" feeling in my chest and I feel the insane urge to blow up things with battlecannons and to rip apart things with my Lascannon HWTs....Not to mention hundreds of lasgun shots that can wound SobS on a 4+!


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AlexHolker wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Are you sure you're not getting things mixed up? The Repentia (the women with chainsaws) have a different stat-line to the rank and file Sisters.

I know they do, he wasn't using repentia

WH are a neat army, because your opponent doesn't always know what you are bringing. However, they do NOT have marine stats. BS 4, and a few higher WS and I on special units. Lots of models can have eviscerators, but they all cost 25 pts. Look at their wargear list. They pay much higher costs for toys than your army. The Canoness is only WS4, S3, T3. Not real impressive for a general. Their faith points can sometimes save them with special saves or attack buffs, but they are limited. Because they are an old codex, much of their units are overpriced. Rhinos. They have a couple of characters, one who is 205 that probably could lose to one of your aspiring champs. And in response to one post, I play boatloads of meltas. Most squads can have 2, some can have 4. You can roll a transport with twin MM carrying 4 meltas and a melta pistol. They can throw down serious AP1. But cheesy. That is not one I've previously heard. (Somewhere Melissa smiles...)

Sad part is, while the Meltas are nuts I persoanlly think you got away relatively easy since it seems he stayed away from the Flamer/Faith point spam. There is the one act of faith, whose name escapes me, but it essentially turns their weapons into rending weapons. 4 Flamers causeing mass hits on your units wipes them out really fast.

Cheese Elemental wrote:If you're ever, EVER unsure of something outside of a tournament, check the rules. Plenty of people will try to cheat if they know you're unfamiliar with their army.

Yep. Even GW employees you're playing in the store. But then after his O&G trashed me undead I blasted his cherished mentors away the following week with eldar Best I've had lately is an eldar player trying to get away with anything.... when I'm sitting playing eldar against him... hmm yeah. Other highlights not army related were him not mentioning the shuicannons on his vypers were actually brightlances and that all the terrain I had set my bikes up in was to be classed as difficult until I went to move them. Still the look on his face when his kitted out DA and rangers got nuked by 3 flame templates was priceless . Always remember, what goes around comes around

yes sisters are stupid good. thank god the figs are metal everyone would be playing them.

Generalstoner wrote:Sad part is, while the Meltas are nuts I persoanlly think you got away relatively easy since it seems he stayed away from the Flamer/Faith point spam. There is the one act of faith, whose name escapes me, but it essentially turns their weapons into rending weapons. 4 Flamers causeing mass hits on your units wipes them out really fast.

And don't forget, if you are willing to spend 25 points on a nearby character you can auto-cast that faithpoint, AND not lose it.

Does anyone else think Witch Hunters are broken?

Noone that actually tries to play the army by the rules does...

"Divine Guidance" makes the weapons AP1 or power weapons in close combat. Not rending. The difference is important when it comes to vehicles (rending is generally better, as rending bolters can actually penetrate light tanks, whereas AP1 bolters are all but useless against vehicles).

only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Melissia wrote:

Does anyone else think Witch Hunters are broken?

Noone that actually tries to play the army by the rules does...

"Divine Guidance" makes the weapons AP1 or power weapons in close combat. Not rending. The difference is important when it comes to vehicles (rending is generally better, as rending bolters can actually penetrate light tanks, whereas AP1 bolters are all but useless against vehicles).

Divine Guidance wrote:Roll equal to or under the current squad size (12 always fails). Use in either player's Assault phase/own Shooting phase, before rolling to wound. If used in the Shooting phase, any to wound rolls of 6 count as AP1. If used in the Assault phase, any to wound rolls of 6 count as being made by a power weapon.

Oh my, yes, I wish it made weapons Rending... As you'll never make a "to wound" roll against a vehicule you can't even abuse the AP1...


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Samus_aran115 wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:Are you sure you're not getting things mixed up? The Repentia (the women with chainsaws) have a different stat-line to the rank and file Sisters.

I know they do, he wasn't using repentia

You did mention =][= slaves with Eviscerators. They were either Repentia or priests...

Either tha or combat servitors, but those are very expensive (25 pts apiece) and require an Inquisitor o use anyway.

edit: Actually C:WH combat servitors don't get chainfists. So it had to have been Repentia or Priests...

Arco-Flagellants?

The Exorcist isn't melta. Its shots are just Ap1 krak missiles.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Also not true.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Arco-Flagellants?

Power weapons.

Sisters can be a Really good army In this edition. Not necessarily that particular list, but recently I played an old associate at 1500 pts, he had sisters I had Mech IG. His list was something like:

Canoness- Inf Pistol Book of St. Lucius,
Retinue-

Multimelta Meltagun Immolater Transport.

Sister squad x10
Meltaguns x2
Rhino

Sister squad x10
Meltaguns x2
Rhino

Sister squad x10
Meltaguns x2
Rhino

Sister squad x10
Meltaguns x2
Rhino

Veteran sister squad 5 models
Multi-melta
Melta
Immolater

Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

He tabled me! I was so happy I haven't been tabled in so long before that. After the game I red up on sisters and feel certain game changing mistakes wouldn't have been made. If I get a chance to play again I'm certain that our game would go more favorably for the IG. In-case you were wondering my list was:

CCS- Plasma x4 Chimera

Psyker Battle Squad +4 Chimera

Vets Plasmax3 Chimera

Vets Plasmax3 Chimera

Vets Meltax3 Demo

Vets Meltax3 Demo

Vendetta
Vendetta

manticore
Manticore

JSK-Fox wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Ask him for the codex/army list, as has been said above, and if you think he's lying, and he refuses to show you the list/codex, remember what Kharn does best - Beats the feth outta people. Use his strength while yelling BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD and put an end to their snide ideals.

Alternatively just call them on it publicly and refuse to play with them. This in no way means going berserk wouldn't be appreciated. i just need to get some popcorn first.

Ah, mellisia joins the thread

Yeah, they were priests. He had a giant unit of them on the field (maybe like 20 models). Not sure about their stats, but he said they had Intiative 4 and two attacks, which I doubt.


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I'm really glad he didn't take chimeras though...He doesn't know about their 5 firing points..

Melissia wrote:

Does anyone else think Witch Hunters are broken?

Noone that actually tries to play the army by the rules does...

"Divine Guidance" makes the weapons AP1 or power weapons in close combat. Not rending. The difference is important when it comes to vehicles (rending is generally better, as rending bolters can actually penetrate light tanks, whereas AP1 bolters are all but useless against vehicles).

Unless you can hit rear armor.

Bolters at S4 can glance rear armor on most tanks on sixes. Two shots each at 12" from 10 Sisters at BS4 translates to 13 hits, which nets you an average 2-3 glances. Glance is -2 on the vehicle damage table, but AP1 is +1, so you can still wreck a tank or at least immobilize/disarm it pretty easily with AP1 bolters.

As good as rending? Hell no. But not completely useless.

Bookwrack wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Also not true.

Yes there are only so many times you can do this and there is a roll involved which can be failed. How easy the roll is depends on the circumstances. WH are far from cheesy and broken. The codex is approaching its 7th year in play so the players are feeling the age. Sisters pay for every weapon upgrade unlike Space marines and that includes grenades of all sorts, plus they are only armed with boltguns as basic equipment. A 10 man Space Marine squad costs around the same points that a Sisters squad does if they both use a transport and has better equipment for the price. Sisters need their Faith edge or they would get baked in normal play every time hands down.

Sure sisters have power armor, but I can tell you that most units in the game hit sisters on a 3+ and wound on a 3+. That makes for a lot of saves you will need to make. Also most characters are toughness 3 that means any failed save against STR 6 weapons kills them dead regardless of how many wounds are left. WH will never have the bodies that IG do so our losses hurt more.




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SaintHazard wrote:
Unless you can hit rear armor.

Bolters at S4 can glance rear armor on most tanks on sixes. Two shots each at 12" from 10 Sisters at BS4 translates to 13 hits, which nets you an average 2-3 glances. Glance is -2 on the vehicle damage table, but AP1 is +1, so you can still wreck a tank or at least immobilize/disarm it pretty easily with AP1 bolters.

As good as rending? Hell no. But not completely useless.

Since I cannot roll a "wound" on a vehicle they can't be AP1 at all versus vehicle armor. What Sisters can do though is assualt the vehicle and make their strength 5 to maybe even penetrate the vehicle armor assuming they have not bought krak grenades and want to try those instead. Krak grenades are at least a 20 point upgrade to a Battle Sister squad though.

andrewm9 wrote:Since I cannot roll a "wound" on a vehicle they can't be AP1 at all versus vehicle armor. What Sisters can do though is assualt the vehicle and make their strength 5 to maybe even penetrate the vehicle armor assuming they have not bought krak grenades and want to try those instead. Krak grenades are at least a 20 point upgrade to a Battle Sister squad though.

AP1 weapons in 5th add +1 to the vehicle damage table, wounds have nothing to do with it.

SaintHazard wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:Since I cannot roll a "wound" on a vehicle they can't be AP1 at all versus vehicle armor. What Sisters can do though is assualt the vehicle and make their strength 5 to maybe even penetrate the vehicle armor assuming they have not bought krak grenades and want to try those instead. Krak grenades are at least a 20 point upgrade to a Battle Sister squad though.

AP1 weapons in 5th add +1 to the vehicle damage table, wounds have nothing to do with it.

Thats true they do add +1 on Vehicle damage, but it says "any rolls which cause a wound on the roll of a 6 count as AP1". Its there in the codex. Simply put Divine Guidance is of no use against vehicles.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
I'm really glad he didn't take chimeras though...He doesn't know about their 5 firing points..

I think that the sisters Rhinos and Chimera's are different than the guard ones. Rhinos have 1 fire point and chimeras only have 2.. I think. I know it is not 5. Also the Rhino is open topped next turn when shooting out of the fire point unless the model shooting has a 3+ save, bad for inquisitorial storm troopers.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, they were priests. He had a giant unit of them on the field (maybe like 20 models). Not sure about their stats, but he said they had Intiative 4 and two attacks, which I doubt.

You can only have one priest attached per squad, and there's a 0-5 limit in total.


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SaintHazard wrote:AP1 weapons in 5th add +1 to the vehicle damage table, wounds have nothing to do with it.

Which is why Divine Guidance doesn't add AP1 to vehicle damage tables.

You only get AP1 on a to wound roll of 6, not a penetration roll of 6.

Are WH Broken? Yes, but broken like Necrons. Not broken like SW or BA.

svendrex wrote:I think that the sisters Rhinos and Chimera's are different than the guard ones. Rhinos have 1 fire point and chimeras only have 2.. I think. I know it is not 5. Also the Rhino is open topped next turn when shooting out of the fire point unless the model shooting has a 3+ save, bad for inquisitorial storm troopers.

Right. C:WH Chimeras are inferior in almost every way to C:IG Chimeras. Two fire points instead of five, and twenty five points more expensive, no free smoke or searchlights, no free hull heavy bolter/heavy flamer.

Melissia wrote:

svendrex wrote:I think that the sisters Rhinos and Chimera's are different than the guard ones. Rhinos have 1 fire point and chimeras only have 2.. I think. I know it is not 5. Also the Rhino is open topped next turn when shooting out of the fire point unless the model shooting has a 3+ save, bad for inquisitorial storm troopers.

Right. C:WH Chimeras are inferior in almost every way to C:IG Chimeras. Two fire points instead of five, and twenty five points more expensive, no free smoke or searchlights, no free hull heavy bolter/heavy flamer.

Not to mention that no other units other than the one you bought the transport for can board them, and that if IST fire out of them, they become open-topped.

Not so, daedalus.

GW Errata'd that.

daedalus wrote:

Melissia wrote:

svendrex wrote:I think that the sisters Rhinos and Chimera's are different than the guard ones. Rhinos have 1 fire point and chimeras only have 2.. I think. I know it is not 5. Also the Rhino is open topped next turn when shooting out of the fire point unless the model shooting has a 3+ save, bad for inquisitorial storm troopers.

Right. C:WH Chimeras are inferior in almost every way to C:IG Chimeras. Two fire points instead of five, and twenty five points more expensive, no free smoke or searchlights, no free hull heavy bolter/heavy flamer.

Not to mention that no other units other than the one you bought the transport for can board them, and that if IST fire out of them, they become open-topped.

FAQ fixed that a while ago.

Beaten by only 2 seconds

Samus_aran115 wrote:Ah, mellisia joins the thread

Yeah, they were priests. He had a giant unit of them on the field (maybe like 20 models). Not sure about their stats, but he said they had Intiative 4 and two attacks, which I doubt.

Witch Hunter priests really do have I4 and two attacks, but you can't bring them in units of their own and certainly not 20 of them. And of course if they take Eviscerators they strike last anyway. The only units that can be that size are Battle Sisters, Repentia, and inducted Guard.

Fair enough. You don't really know how quick you made me dash for the Daemonhunters FAQ and how disappointed I got by it though. :(

Yeh it's stupid how they didn't apply the same errata (concerning who can board a transport) to Daemon Hunters.

daedalus wrote:Fair enough. You don't really know how quick you made me dash for the Daemonhunters FAQ and how disappointed I got by it though. :(

Wait, you expect GW to be intelligent?

Also, doooooon't get me started on how crappy Repentia are. So easy to destroy by anyone remotely competent, so ridiculously overpriced and useless.

I just can't wait until Sisters get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Sisters were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.

Red_Lives wrote:I just can't wait until Sisters get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Sisters were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.

0_0

Melissia wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, they were priests. He had a giant unit of them on the field (maybe like 20 models). Not sure about their stats, but he said they had Intiative 4 and two attacks, which I doubt.

You can only have one priest attached per squad, and there's a 0-5 limit in total.


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SaintHazard wrote:AP1 weapons in 5th add +1 to the vehicle damage table, wounds have nothing to do with it.

Which is why Divine Guidance doesn't add AP1 to vehicle damage tables.

You only get AP1 on a to wound roll of 6, not a penetration roll of 6.

Gotcha. The way you said it before made it sound like it just plain old made their weapons AP1, regardless of rolls to wound.

First off, take more basic CSM. They're really quite nice. Kharn hits like a Daemon Prince then dies like a Chaos Lord. I had some fun moments with him, but that was really the extent of my use.

Second, Sisters are an army and like any other army they have resources. Make them use them up or die trying. It's really just a matter of adapting your play style.

ummm... more chaos space marines are just more chumps for the sisters to flame.... what you need to do is stop the rhinos. If sisters can't flame you they can't win.

AUGH. It's absolutely painful sometimes, the nonsense that AF posts.

Look, dude, look at the list Samus posted. Do you see a single flamer? DO YOU?!

AUGH.

I repeat!

AUGH.

Red_Lives wrote:I just can't wait until Sisters get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Sisters were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.

I just can't wait until Eldar get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Eldar were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.
edit: Above statement is entirely sarcastic.

So anyway back on topic...


The flamers do AP1 on to-wound rolls of six. Still means they have to wound, and still means what, three out of four successful wounds for their heavy flamers (and two out of three for flamers) aren't AP1? I don't have the to-wound chart in front of me at the moment, but that sounds about right. And keep in mind that you don't have that much more than one faith point per squad in all but the smallest of games, so you spend it, hope to pass Divine Guidance, and you get on average ONE phase of this a game.

Melissia wrote:I just can't wait until Eldar get retired altogether. I've said it before and I will say it again. Eldar were a mediocre concept done with a mediocre model line compiled with an overall poor codex/ruleset.

*hug*

Not every strong yet unfounded opinion regarding Sisters requires an equally strong yet unfounded response.

It'll be okay.

Actually I was mostly reciprocating it to show how much that statement could be considered trolling I have nothing against Eldar (Actually I considered starting an Eldar army before I settled on Guard for my third army).

So ... yeah. Back on topic?

SaintHazard wrote:AUGH. It's absolutely painful sometimes, the nonsense that AF posts.

Look, dude, look at the list Samus posted. Do you see a single flamer? DO YOU?!

AUGH.

I repeat!

AUGH.

Modquisition on:
BE POLITE PEOPLE

AbaddonFidelis wrote:ummm... more chaos space marines are just more chumps for the sisters to flame.... what you need to do is stop the rhinos. If sisters can't flame you they can't win.

Well, yes. That's true. I was worried about those stupid exorcist missiles, so I disembarked both units after the first turn (he exploded one of the rhinos, killing 6 marines!) Otherwise, the rhinos would have been amazing, since he wasn't taking them

Seriously, the dreadnought would have punched serious face if I had destroyed those exorcists. He wasn't taking anything except storm bolters for all of his Sister. The dread could have easily destroyed everything.

Surprisingly, the raptors actually did their job pretty well. I shouldn't have deep-striked them though. They ended up flaming a couple sisters and then dying in assault, which was okay, I guess.

Witch hunters codex can produce two things. Crap and bordering on broken awesome sauce.

The main power of the SOB lists is the ability to spam. Because the basic battle sister is so damn cheep they can afford their slightly more expensive rhinos/immolaters. The big question though is what to spam.

The most competitive lists go all mech and spam sisters and faith. They then use that faith and flamers to crush all opposition. They can get enough melta guns that armor isn't an issue even without using the annoying exorcists.

Its not uncommon to see lists that have 8-10 faith with 3-4 more points generated over time by sacraficing sister superiors. If the sister player knows what they are doing, you will feel lost as bullets bounce off of inv saves and their flamers crush you with AP1.

So whats the trick? 1) remove the transports. With the exception of the exorsists sisters cannot get to you at range. They can get a sick number of heavy bolters, but many don't fear the HB and for good reason. So get those sisters out of their rhinos/immolators and things get much harder. You can somewhat protect yourself from exorsists thanks to cover saves, but AP1 flamers will cook your goose. Priority is stopping their advance. If they are walking, yeah, bust up those exorsists. A DS unit with melta or plasma will pen their weak AV11 side armor. Also a weapon destroyed result is perfect because it knocks out the entire weapon system.

Trick 2) threaten multiple targets simultaneously. Since faith has to be used before your shooting/assault phase, you can force him to spend faith on all threatened units. Then attack the unit that either failed its faith test (each test can only be attempted once) or didn't get protected.

Err, what? "So damn cheap"?

You do realize that ten Battle Sisters in a Rhino actually costs quite similarly to ten Tacticals in a rhino, right?

Melissia wrote:Err, what? "So damn cheap"?

You do realize that ten Battle Sisters in a Rhino actually costs quite similarly to ten Tacticals in a rhino, right?

At 11 points a model, versus Space Marines at 18? Not quite.

10 sisters in a rhino will kill more and be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino.

Two special weapons instead of 1. Faith over nothing. Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling.

Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package. Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around.

Jayden63 wrote:10 sisters in a rhino will kill more and be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino.

Two special weapons instead of 1. Faith over nothing. Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling.

Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package. Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around.

Ok, now compare them to a 10 point firewarrior. Sure he has a big gun, but does he blend?

SaintHazard wrote:

Melissia wrote:Err, what? "So damn cheap"?

You do realize that ten Battle Sisters in a Rhino actually costs quite similarly to ten Tacticals in a rhino, right?

At 11 points a model, versus Space Marines at 18? Not quite.

Space Marines cost 16, not 18. A squad of 10 Space Marines with a flamer, heavy bolter and veteran sergeant in a Rhino cost 205 points. A squad of 10 Sisters of Battle with a flamer, heavy flamer and veteran sister superior in a Rhino costs 192.

Ah, then he was cheating by using a faith point right after I dealt 9 wounds to a single unit with my plamsa cannon? Yes. That entire unit should have died then.

Jayden63 wrote:Some incredibly ludicrous stuff.

HAH!

No.

Let's look at the various misinformation/misconceptions/outright fabrications in this post:

"10 sisters in a rhino will kill more [...] than 10 marines in a rhino."
Only if the Sisters player manages to get a turn of rapid fire shooting, which also requires that enemy transports be destroyed. And even then, only in shooting-- in an assault, Battle Sisters suffer severely against MEQ, even if you use Divine Guidance or Hand of the Emperor they're still going to suffer, and if they're low enough in numbers to use The Passion then they're already suffering. Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

"10 sisters in a rhino will [...] be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino."
Most assuredly not. WS3, I3, and T3 means that they'll be torn apart in an assault, and T3 means they'll suffer more wounds in shooting as well. And don't give me the "OMG 3++ INV. SAVE OMG!" crap, that particular Act of Faith requires you to roll equal to or over the squad size on a 2d6. So by the time you're actually able to use it with a 50% chance of succeeding, your squad's already been reduced by half anyway making them even more vulnerable to assault. And once again, Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

"Two special weapons instead of 1."
Yes... which are limited to flamer/melta/storm bolter. No plasmaguns, no long-ranged heavy weapons aside from the heavy bolter (which is overpriced anyway), no assault special weapons save for the sister superior. And to top it off, these special weapons are overcosted aside from meltaguns. And hell, Storm Bolters are all but useless anyway.

"Faith over nothing."
You mean aside from MEQ, Combat Squadding, Bolt Pistols, and free Frag and Krak grenades?

"Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling."
ATSKNF plus Combat Tactics for far superior LD handling.

"Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package."
If Sisters are cheap for what they get, Tacticals are cheaper because they get more for the same price.

"Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much"
Are we playing the same game?

"when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around."
You do not understand how Acts of Faith work. Go read C:WH. Go read how Faith Points are calculated. Go read how each individual Act of Faith is utilized. Go read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. Go read the rules on Martyrdom and then go back and read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. You have no clue what you are talking about. Go read the rules until you have a clue about what you are talking about.





And let's not even get started on Chaos Space Marines or Grey Hunters.

Come on, Leave this out of here.....I'm really not in the mood for this.

You're the one that asked whether or not Witch Hunters are "broken"... if you didn't want people to talk about that subject, why would you start the thread?

I don't want people arguing for no reason....*sigh*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want people arguing for no reason....*sigh*

I thought we argued because we enjoyed it. Regardless, this is getting too off-topic, so I'll repeat myself:

The answer is no, undeniably and unequivocally no. The army isn't "broken", in the sense of it breaking the balance of the game.

But you see Samus, Melissa likes to beat people to death, over the head with SoB facts/trivia. If only I loved my Tau as much as she loves her beloved, plastic, bob-hair wearing darlings.
*sigh*

Okay, I guess we can agree that they aren't, you just need to learn how to handle them. Which I think I understand now. More deepstriking raptors with meltas for those exorcists

Actually deep striking is probably a bad idea.

There's two basic easy ways to cripple a Sisters army.

1: light anti-tank plus AP3 or better blasts/templates (mostly dominated by Guard of course)
2: light anti-tank plus highly mobile assault troops (jump, beasts, cavalry, fleet, etc)

By light anti-tank I mean autocannons, psycannons, assault cannons, star cannons, and so on, to get rid of the Rhinos. Once you get rid of their transports, Sisters are vulnerable to AP3 weaponry (which makes them essentially overcosted Guardsmen) or assault (WS3, T3, I3, A1 base means they're not going to do much damage). Even with Acts of Faith, Sisters are going to have a hard time dealing with either of these combinations.

Exorcists are good, but without troops the Sisters army is screwed.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Ah, then he was cheating by using a faith point right after I dealt 9 wounds to a single unit with my plamsa cannon? Yes. That entire unit should have died then.

Yes, the power that would have helped must be attempted at the start of the phase. Attempting it after shots have been fired is cheating. It's one of the more subtle ways to get acts of faith wrong to your advantage. A unit that size would have a lot of trouble passing the test to invoke spirit of the martyr too since you have to roll equal to or higher than the number of people in the squad for that one.

Oh, and T3 makes sisters more vulnerable to massed small arms and basic close combat attacks than Marines. Marines fail saves, and so do Sisters.

I don't run sisters, but I've played against it enough times and got my ass roasted.

Melissia wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Some incredibly ludicrous stuff.

HAH!

No.

Let's look at the various misinformation/misconceptions/outright fabrications in this post:

"10 sisters in a rhino will kill more [...] than 10 marines in a rhino."
Only if the Sisters player manages to get a turn of rapid fire shooting, which also requires that enemy transports be destroyed. And even then, only in shooting-- in an assault, Battle Sisters suffer severely against MEQ, even if you use Divine Guidance or Hand of the Emperor they're still going to suffer, and if they're low enough in numbers to use The Passion then they're already suffering. Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

What I'm sure you know, but didn't think to mention is that sisters don't get out of their rhinos unless they have to, Sisters don't assault anything. Seriphim do. So that's why sisters need to pop the other guy. They have all the melta and exorists fire needed for such a thing. This is why I said you need to stop the rhinos, because they don't need extra bolter shots when they tankshock a unit into a small ball then lay 2 flamer templates ontop. Toasty city. The only time they get out is when something has to die, or its a dominion squad with 4 meltas or flamers. Marines actually have a bit of an advantage here as they do have long range firepower that can stop sister rhinos at range. But once everyone is out of their rhinos, I'll give the nod to sisters in the shooting match every time. Tacs just can't hold up to divine guidenced flamers and bolter rounds even if they wound the sisters 16% more often.

"10 sisters in a rhino will [...] be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino."
Most assuredly not. WS3, I3, and T3 means that they'll be torn apart in an assault, and T3 means they'll suffer more wounds in shooting as well. And don't give me the "OMG 3++ INV. SAVE OMG!" crap, that particular Act of Faith requires you to roll equal to or over the squad size on a 2d6. So by the time you're actually able to use it with a 50% chance of succeeding, your squad's already been reduced by half anyway making them even more vulnerable to assault. And once again, Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

I'll give you this one since I forgot that exploding vehicles wound based on T now and not just a flat 4+. But even if you have to wait until 50% squad strength (or use the roll 3 choose 2 wargear item) the ability to get and INV save to fend off all that AP3 S6 or better guns means they are sticking around longer than marines getting shot at by the same weapons.

"Two special weapons instead of 1."
Yes... which are limited to flamer/melta/storm bolter. No plasmaguns, no long-ranged heavy weapons aside from the heavy bolter (which is overpriced anyway), no assault special weapons save for the sister superior. And to top it off, these special weapons are overcosted aside from meltaguns. And hell, Storm Bolters are all but useless anyway.

When those special weapons are divine guided. Who cares if they can't get a missile launcher. Flamers are all you need baby. Its also a included limitation of the army. Sisters is an up close and in your face army. Its where they work the best. So its obvious that that is where their tools should work.


"Faith over nothing."
You mean aside from MEQ, Combat Squadding, Bolt Pistols, and free Frag and Krak grenades?

"Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling."
ATSKNF plus Combat Tactics for far superior LD handling.

With the Book of St. Broken you don't need combat tactics because regardless of how much you lost the combat, you still test at full LD and as such probably don't break, and then don't have to worry about getting run down like other none-ATSKNF armies or suffer fearless wounds. And when you decide to be done with the assault, you just choose not to use it. Stupidly powerful item for only 5 points.

"Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much"
Are we playing the same game?

They sure don't when you have a bolter and BS4. Funny how most of the sister units that actually want to get into assault are all WS4, S6 (because of evisorators). The only place where those two stats matter.

"when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around."

You do not understand how Acts of Faith work. Go read C:WH. Go read how Faith Points are calculated. Go read how each individual Act of Faith is utilized. Go read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. Go read the rules on Martyrdom and then go back and read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. You have no clue what you are talking about. Go read the rules until you have a clue about what you are talking about.

I fully understand how faith works. I've had it used against me far too often. Faith isn't too hard to get when you can roll 3 dice and pick two (thankfully a somewhat limited wargear item). Sure the sister squad that sacrifices the superior to maryterdom can no longer use faith or the generated faith point. But the one right next to it sure as hell can.

Clearly we are not playing the same game. 8-9 immolater spam using just sisters, dominion, flamers, and faith is nasty. Just freaken nasty. I'm not saying sisters can't be beat, but common if your as knowledgeable as you sound you have to recognize their strengths and know that sister spam is a stupidly powerful and effective army. Especially if the other guy doesn't quite know what he is in for.

Jayden63 wrote:I don't run sisters, but I've played against it enough times and got my ass roasted.

Maybe you just suck then, or maybe your opponent is cheating.

1: Against a good player with an assault-based army or a long-ranged shooty army, Sisters will be forced to get out of their Rhinos because they're exploded.

2: Marines are less likely to be reduced to half strength to begin with as they're less likely to be wounded.

3: You mention Divine Guidance as if this somehow solves all of the Sisters problems. Hint: It doesn't.

5: Being able to get out of close combat so that you can shoot your bolt pistols and charge again (Sisters don't have Bolt Pistols by the way, despite having them in the fluff) is better than being stuck in close combat being slaughtered.

6: Then learn how to get into assualt. If you think Sisters Repentia are good, I think I'm going to have to go lie down because I'm about to pass out laughing at you.

7: No you don't. The Simaculrum Imperialis is a twenty point upgrade, and it still won't make it easy to use all Acts of Faith at any time. And Acts of Faith themselves only last a single phase-- not turn, a phase. Meaning that if you want to activate Spirit of the Martyr during the shooting phase (activated, by the way, at the BEGINNING of the phase, so the enemy chooses their targets AFTER they know your squad has a 3++ save) it runs out after the shooting phase ends, just in time for the assault phase. Oh, and it only lasts for the first assault phase, if you want to that 3++ save during the next assault phase, guess what? You're going to have to use ANOTHER Faith Point. And this is for every single squad you want to protect.

Immolator spam has its own problems. Five or six member Sisters squads are easy to decimate even IF they use Spirit of the Martyr, and putting them in heavy support slots means you have less room for Exorcists. In the end, Immolators are little more than overcosted razorbacks.

Spirit of the Martyr seems like an easy way to save yourself from assault terminators Well, maybe.

Only if you're able to pull it off, and only if they still decide to assault you after they find out you've used it. Remember, you use it at the BEGINNING of the assault phase. So before anyone declares charges.

A smart player can always try to position his/her units so that they can assault more than one target, just in case the Sisters player attempts to use this.

A smart player can figure out that a unit of fully armed TH/SS terminators are close to assaulting you

Melissia wrote:You're the one that asked whether or not Witch Hunters are "broken"... if you didn't want people to talk about that subject, why would you start the thread?

I thought it was already answered, the reason they were "overpowered" was because the player was cheating.

Yes, forcing you to move away. Which means they're forcing you to react to their movements. Which means they can force you into a no-win situation by making clever movements. Etc etc etc.

People say the movement phase is unimportant to 40k, and they're so very damn wrong...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vene wrote:I thought it was already answered, the reason they were "overpowered" was because the player was cheating.

Yes, but there are people who dispute this.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Actually, a Canoness can buy the Cloak of St. Aspira (artificer armor) for 20 pts. and a 4+ invulnerable for 25, just like every other Imperial character. And she is still only S3, T3, so instant death is much easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Some incredibly ludicrous stuff.

HAH!

No.

Let's look at the various misinformation/misconceptions/outright fabrications in this post:

"10 sisters in a rhino will kill more [...] than 10 marines in a rhino."
Only if the Sisters player manages to get a turn of rapid fire shooting, which also requires that enemy transports be destroyed. And even then, only in shooting-- in an assault, Battle Sisters suffer severely against MEQ, even if you use Divine Guidance or Hand of the Emperor they're still going to suffer, and if they're low enough in numbers to use The Passion then they're already suffering. Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

"10 sisters in a rhino will [...] be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino."
Most assuredly not. WS3, I3, and T3 means that they'll be torn apart in an assault, and T3 means they'll suffer more wounds in shooting as well. And don't give me the "OMG 3++ INV. SAVE OMG!" crap, that particular Act of Faith requires you to roll equal to or over the squad size on a 2d6. So by the time you're actually able to use it with a 50% chance of succeeding, your squad's already been reduced by half anyway making them even more vulnerable to assault. And once again, Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

"Two special weapons instead of 1."
Yes... which are limited to flamer/melta/storm bolter. No plasmaguns, no long-ranged heavy weapons aside from the heavy bolter (which is overpriced anyway), no assault special weapons save for the sister superior. And to top it off, these special weapons are overcosted aside from meltaguns. And hell, Storm Bolters are all but useless anyway.

"Faith over nothing."
You mean aside from MEQ, Combat Squadding, Bolt Pistols, and free Frag and Krak grenades?

"Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling."
ATSKNF plus Combat Tactics for far superior LD handling.

"Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package."
If Sisters are cheap for what they get, Tacticals are cheaper because they get more for the same price.

"Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much"
Are we playing the same game?

"when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around."
You do not understand how Acts of Faith work. Go read C:WH. Go read how Faith Points are calculated. Go read how each individual Act of Faith is utilized. Go read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. Go read the rules on Martyrdom and then go back and read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. You have no clue what you are talking about. Go read the rules until you have a clue about what you are talking about.

Preach, Sister! Tell 'em like it is. Sisters are a cool army, because they are different and require thought and skill to play. Havind markedly fewer choices in toys that are more expensive than everyone else, ala having to buy grenades, makes them a challenge. Any 12 year old can load up a bunch of gonzo-death-monkey assault troops or TH/SS termies and charge up straight across the table and up your nose.

Meh, people make too big of a deal over the Book of St. Lucius. Yes, it's only five points. But that means Sisters actually have to purchase their special leadership rules. Marines get ATSKNF for free as part of their package. Orks get Mob Rule, 'Nids get Synapse, Guard get Orders, and so on, without paying directly for them, it's included in their playstyle.

You might as well just say the five points is just a five points tax per squad of sisters. A tax for being out of date, when in a fifth edition codex you'd get the BoSL for free as part of the Adepta Sororitas special rule.

Melissia wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I don't run sisters, but I've played against it enough times and got my ass roasted.

Maybe you just suck then, or maybe your opponent is cheating.

Just because I've lost to them, and lost badly, doesn't mean I haven't beaten them either. Maybe you didn't read my very first post in this thread because many of the following items I've already addressed.

1: Against a good player with an assault-based army or a long-ranged shooty army, Sisters will be forced to get out of their Rhinos because they're exploded.

True of all armies everywhere that use transports. You can't get to the cream filling without breaking the shell. Necessary tactics for all armies whos opposition keeps scoring units inside of vehicles. This is not an exclusive downside of playing sisters.

2: Marines are less likely to be reduced to half strength to begin with as they're less likely to be wounded.

Against small arms fire, you are correct, but even then its only a 16% difference. However, I seem to do most of my marine killing using things like plasma, melta, rending, ion etc. Things that wound both marines and sisters on 2+ or equally as easy.

3: You mention Divine Guidance as if this somehow solves all of the Sisters problems. Hint: It doesn't.

All of the worlds problems, no you are correct. Add to it that against armies like Tau/orks/guard you don't even need it (the AP 5/4 of the bolters/Hflamers are enough, so lets just throw it out all together. Make the lives of the poor SM a little easier. I've played games against sisters where the other guy only used the power to autorally because there was just no benefit from using the other powers. At the end of the game he still had 4 or so faith left (I think that game was a draw).

5: Being able to get out of close combat so that you can shoot your bolt pistols and charge again (Sisters don't have Bolt Pistols by the way, despite having them in the fluff) is better than being stuck in close combat being slaughtered.

Sisters in combat are dead anyway. Why try to save them, its like trying to save your firewarriors. Ever notice how Seriphim have hit and run (using superior old rules to boot). Units in a sisters list that want to be in HTH, have ways of making it work, its not like your throwing gun drones into BA assault terminators.

6: Then learn how to get into assualt. If you think Sisters Repentia are good, I think I'm going to have to go lie down because I'm about to pass out laughing at you.

When did I ever say Repentia were good. No save, no ride, T3, 4+inv, heavy price tag, really cool models. Total suckage on the tabletop. But if your taking things like repentia, arcos, penitant engines, yeah your going to have issues. Also, not everyone runs marines. Since when to Tau/guard ever want to get into assault? For some armies playing the shooting game is the only option. For those times when things are desperate you always can get boosted strength, boosted iniative (but not both at the same time) and a sister with a evisorator which is just as good at killing marines as a marine is with a P-fist (especially now that you can't get bonus attacks from a pistol.)

7: No you don't. The Simaculrum Imperialis is a twenty point upgrade, and it still won't make it easy to use all Acts of Faith at any time. And Acts of Faith themselves only last a single phase-- not turn, a phase. Meaning that if you want to activate Spirit of the Martyr during the shooting phase (activated, by the way, at the BEGINNING of the phase, so the enemy chooses their targets AFTER they know your squad has a 3++ save) it runs out after the shooting phase ends, just in time for the assault phase. Oh, and it only lasts for the first assault phase, if you want to that 3++ save during the next assault phase, guess what? You're going to have to use ANOTHER Faith Point. And this is for every single squad you want to protect.

Again, read my first post on this thread. I covered this.

I think Sisters are incredibly good-- probably better than Space Marines, even with a Codex two editions old. That said, they are a specialist army, absolutely a high-skill army to play, and can be countered by appropriate tactics. I wouldn't say they're broken.

Brettila wrote:Actually, a Canoness can buy the Cloak of St. Aspira (artificer armor) for 20 pts. and a 4+ invulnerable for 25, just like every other Imperial character. And she is still only S3, T3, so instant death is much easier.

Actually, Space Marine Captains and Chaplains get that 4+ invuln save for free!

1: It doesn't matter if it's not exclusive, only that it's there.

2: So? To a T3 army, small arms fire causes more wounds than plasma anyway. If a squad of Sisters is about to be shot at by a squad of Marines, I'm more worried about assault or bolter shock than plasma. Because bolter shock hurts like hell when you aren't T4, even with an armor save.

3: There are other powers, you realize, than Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr?

5: Because it's better to die doing more damage than to die not doing more damage. If Sisters had Combat Tactics, they could regroup and give another burst of rapid fire with whatever is left of the squad, especially if they still have a flamer left. But they don't. So they just die instead. This is a big advantage to Marines.

6: You're the one that mentioned units with WS4 and eviscerators. The ONLY unit that can have all eviscerators is Repentia. All other units just have two models with them at most (a priest and a sister superior). Also, Sisters Repentia do not have a 4++ invulnerable save. They have a 4+ armor save.

Guard don't need any help facing Sisters. In fact, a good Guard player can completely annihilate Sisters armies on a regular basis if they know what they're doing, the only chance the Sisters have is if they come in on the first turn and pop smoke... and even that's no guarantee.

7: Then quit trying to act ilke Acts of Faith are a friggin' panacea. You have no idea how they work if you think they make Sisters "broken awesome sauce". None at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:I think Sisters are incredibly good-- probably better than Space Marines, even with a Codex two editions old. That said, they are a specialist army, absolutely a high-skill army to play, and can be countered by appropriate tactics. I wouldn't say they're broken.

A full sized Mechanized Tactical squad gets MEQ, bolt pistols, frags, kraks, combat tactics combat squads, ATSKNF, and a free heavy and special weapon for the same price as a mechanized Sisters squad once the Sisters have purchased all necessary upgrades to make them not suck (special weapons, veteran superior, book, rhino with smoke). I'd say the Tacticals get the better deal.

Melissia wrote:
7: Then quit trying to act ilke Acts of Faith are a friggin' panacea. You have no idea how they work if you think they make Sisters "broken awesome sauce". None at all.

What do you want me to say? Sisters are the top of the crap heap? Anyone who has ever lost to them needs to turn in their armies and start collecting coins for a hobby because they clearly don't get the game? I've shown how to minimize the effectiveness of a sisters list. I've stated that they can loose, but they sure can win and win big too. Yeah sisters unfortunately fall under the same uni-build umbrella that Tau to. There are not that many effective ways to run a W.H. list, there is a ton of crap in that codex. But there is some gold in there too. Concentrate on the gold, throw in some skill, and you have a 70-80% win ratio army. Throw in experanced/talented skill and that goes up to 90%.

If you think I'm wrong, St.John's win/loss record with his sisters is more than just impressive.

Your being so fast to dismiss all the advantages that sisters bring to the table, yet your the only one in this entire thread doing so? Why is that? Maybe its you who doesn't fully realize how to get the most out of what the codex has to offer.

I'm not trying to troll, but it sure seems like your looking at silver dollars and calling them dimes.

Melissia, for someone who plays Sisters, you don't seem very interested in leveraging your advantages.

You guys don't understand.

Melissia is allergic to satisfaction.

It's a condition, don't make fun!

I thought everyone knew better than to start threads where there was any chance of 'Sisters' being mentioned?

Bookwrack wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Also not true.

Could you explain?
<I'm aware that the 3++ has certain restrictions but the 2++ is there pretty much whenever you need it... cannonness is ld 10 I believe.>
AF

Samus
you said: Ah, then he was cheating by using a faith point right after I dealt 9 wounds to a single unit with my plamsa cannon? Yes. That entire unit should have died then.

there are restrictions on when he can use his powers.... be sure to know them, they're different for several powers, the sisters player can get one past you if you're not careful.

Melissa
Wow. I disagree with practically everything you said. Here's why:

Melissia wrote:
Let's look at the various misinformation/misconceptions/outright fabrications in this post:

"10 sisters in a rhino will kill more [...] than 10 marines in a rhino."
Only if the Sisters player manages to get a turn of rapid fire shooting, which also requires that enemy transports be destroyed. And even then, only in shooting-- in an assault, Battle Sisters suffer severely against MEQ, even if you use Divine Guidance or Hand of the Emperor they're still going to suffer, and if they're low enough in numbers to use The Passion then they're already suffering. Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

A couple things.
1. Do you really think a couple of rhinos can stand up to 3d6 str8 ap1 missiles every turn?
2. Yes in an assault MEQ whip sisters, but since sisters do the same to marines in shooting, it's a question of points cost. 11 vs 16, the sisters are more efficient in this fight. Simply put the sisters can afford to trade like that, the marine player cannot.
3. The sister's player shouldn't be using their faith powers to save their sisters in close combat against marines. The sisters player should just let them eat it sot he marines will be flamer bait next turn.
4. Acts of Faith equip a basic sister for almost every conceivable situation in the game. Getting shot at by plasmaguns? 3++ fighting monstrous Creature? str 5. shooting marines? rending everything. It's stupid how powerful this is on a model that costs 2/3 of what a marine costs.
5. Yes the power *can* fail but the way the acts of faith are set up you are likely to have it *when* you need it. For instance when are you most likely to be at full strength? When you are in a rhino or when you just got out. What are you likely to be doing then? shooting. Great rending works on rolling below squad size. When do I need a 3++? when I'm being shot at by low ap weapons. When am I likely to be taking fire? When I'm out of my rhino and have already burned the crap out of the badguys. The other 7 sisters are just chumps for the 3 with special weapons, but I have to kill all 7 of them before I can reduce the capability of the squad by even a fraction. 3++ works on rolling over the squad size, so again, the "restriction" turns out to only keep you from using the power when you don't really need it anyway.

Melissa wrote:
"10 sisters in a rhino will [...] be more resilient than 10 marines in a rhino."
Most assuredly not. WS3, I3, and T3 means that they'll be torn apart in an assault, and T3 means they'll suffer more wounds in shooting as well. And don't give me the "OMG 3++ INV. SAVE OMG!" crap, that particular Act of Faith requires you to roll equal to or over the squad size on a 2d6. So by the time you're actually able to use it with a 50% chance of succeeding, your squad's already been reduced by half anyway making them even more vulnerable to assault. And once again, Acts of Faith are limited use and are limited by situation, and even in the best situation they can still always fail. MEQ is there regardless of the situation.

1. Again, they are more resilient because the majority of the squad's capability is contained in 3 guys, who get more and more difficult to kill as the squad size is reduced. The other 7 just don't matter. You actually kind of want them to die because sisters are dog meat in close combat anyways so no help there, but your 3 flamer guys are alot more likely to survive plasmagun/melta attacks if their buddies aren't around, so they can turn their power on.
2. Acts of faith are limited only in the loosest sense. A properly constructed sisters army starts with something like 10 and gets them back every time the opponent takes out a squad. So if I kill you I help you. Great. I've played a strong sisters opponent on a regular basis for almost a year and I can tell you he hardly *ever* ran out of faith points. He conserved them by simply not using them like a slow; ie. only when actually needed.

Melissa wrote:"Two special weapons instead of 1."
Yes... which are limited to flamer/melta/storm bolter. No plasmaguns, no long-ranged heavy weapons aside from the heavy bolter (which is overpriced anyway), no assault special weapons save for the sister superior. And to top it off, these special weapons are overcosted aside from meltaguns. And hell, Storm Bolters are all but useless anyway.

1. Oh no, can only take meltas and flamers. Nevermind that between those two guns you can take on any target in the game, never mind that the flamers are rending. As a marine player I pay 16 points a man for a 3+ save, and sisters can take it away for nothing. Either sisters should lose rending on their falmers, go dramatically up in price, or my marines should go down in price. As it stands the sisters player can deliver absolutely devestating attacks that I have no way to defend against at a fraction of the cost of the guys she kills.
2. Who takes storm bolters anyways?

Melissa wrote:"Faith over nothing."
You mean aside from MEQ, Combat Squadding, Bolt Pistols, and free Frag and Krak grenades?

1. Let me make sure I understand. What balances out rending flamers is.... combat squads? bolt pistols? FRAG AND KRAK GRENADES??? rending flamers are death to any infantry target whatever; krak grenades and bolt pistols are just a perk on a guy who really, at the end of th day, doesn't need either.

Melissa wrote:"Book for ST Lucious for superior LD handling."
ATSKNF plus Combat Tactics for far superior LD handling.

1. Yes, thankyou for reminding me. Sisters are crazy leadership all the frikkin time because of 1 wargear item. Everyone else has to deal with massive penalties to their leadership when they lose a combat, but sisters are okee-dokee here too. You can't escort a sisters unit off the board once broken (not that they break very often), because once again faith powers save your bacon; oh I'm fearless I regroup YAYYY!!! meanwhile a squad of the most elite soldiers in the galaxy can be chased off the board by a grot. Does this seem right to you? Again I pay alot of poitns to bring ATSKNF on my guys; by anything like a reasonable comparison sisters should be paying 5 points a model, minimum, for their faith points, but they get them for free.

Melissa wrote:"Sisters are damn cheap for what they get in the complete package."

"Lower WS, S, and T don't mean much"
Are we playing the same game?
If Sisters are cheap for what they get, Tacticals are cheaper because they get more for the same price.

1. We have a slightly better statline, but the stat-line of a sister isn't what makes her good. She could be toughness 2, strength 2, weapon skill 2, and initative 2 and it still wouldn't matter; it's the flame thrower that does the damage, and these things auto hit and rend for nothing.

Melissa wrote:["when your banking on 6s to wound anyway (for the AP1) and 3++ saves to keep you around."
You do not understand how Acts of Faith work. Go read C:WH. Go read how Faith Points are calculated. Go read how each individual Act of Faith is utilized. Go read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. Go read the rules on Martyrdom and then go back and read the limitations on who can use Acts of Faith. You have no clue what you are talking about. Go read the rules until you have a clue about what you are talking about.

1. If each flame template covers 6 guys and you shoot 3 flame templates, plus 7 rapid firing bolters, you're looking at over 30 shots. You're going to roll some 6's in there. And it's not just the rending; I have to roll saves on the normal stuff too.
2. The limitations on who can use acts of faith are basically this: "you can't use it if it wouldn't be good anyways, and even if you can't use it, it doesn't hurt you" because you're not paying anything to bring it. There's zero opportunity cost." God when sisters players complain about the restrictions on faith it drives me nutz. It's like I gave you a blank check but you're only allowed to cash it on a tuesday, and you whine and say "what about the other 6 days???" Look at the good thing you have and how often it helps you, and how completely devestating it is to your opponents, look at how often it saves your bacon and prevents you from losing when you get outplayed, and look at what you pay for it - zippo - and tell me you're being treated unfairly.


Sisters are the queens of cheese. Even a slow can win with these guys; drive towards them, shoot them out of their transports, flame them, repeat until they're all dead. Cover rules prevent most armies from shooting down enough rhinos to stop them, faith points save them whenever they get outplayed. For god's sake you get an HQ that can whip the crap out of a blood thirster for half of what it costs the demon player to bring it! You're the one who needs to read your own codex and appreciate the ridiculously powerful army you have, not bust on other people for pointing out GW's boneheaded mistakes.
AF

I agree with, AbaddonFidelis sisters can be a really really good army. Mech sisters is the way to go.

Granted everything else is bad. The model line is poor, the rules for anyother build is just plain bad, and lets not forget the overall bad codex design.

yeah. the models kind of suck and there are like 4 playable units in that book.... it's really monotonous. have never understood the rationale for splitting them apart from demon hunters.

Oh this will not end well...

Wow Melissia, you are great! I don't know enough about Sisters to know if I agree with all your points, but I applaud your fearless and spirited defense of the Sisters against the accusation that they are broken in an over powered sense. Certainly you have reasons for believing as you do, and your arguments, are better thought out than some of the trolling that is attaching itself to this thread and making it ugly.

Certainly it is not my personal experience that Sisters are over powered. Locally a player ranked 3rd in this years Rogue Trader in Hawaii with a gorgeous Sisters army, so I know they can be competitive, much to my joy. Anyway, keep up the good work!

--- Frankie

Bret
or she can just buy artificer armor and turn her save invulnerable whenever she needs it. But I have to pass a leadership test on a ld 10 model! oh no!
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Bret
or she can just buy artificer armor and turn her save invulnerable whenever she needs it. But I have to pass a leadership test on a ld 10 model! oh no!
AF

You realize that this can only be done a Leadership Roll if she is by herself and not in a squad and that the first failed 2+ or 2++ roll from an attack S 6 or over and she dies unless I buy yet another piece of wargear for more points which only works for the first time she is wounded bvy such an attack. The fabled jump canoness of doom costs about 160 points plus depending on how you kit her out. That and she is only WS 4, I 4, S 3, T 3. She is nowhere near as good as a SM Captain of comparable points or less. I'm not saying she is not useful by any means. People are throwing stuff about that I feel they have no idea what they are talking about. Sisters are not more point efficient than marines. I can and do beat marines on a regualr basis. I also lose to them as often as I win. It depends on how the marines player builds his army. Storm Shield Terminators are quite nasty to me as is the larger amounts fo long range weaponry that Marines have access to.

I think that Codex Marines are every bit as good as Sisters if not slightly better. I think people need to just get over it. If the Sisters were as awesome as some people think they are then they woudl be winning more tournaments or at last placing more, but they are not. At those highest competetive levels I doubt popularity has any relevance as people bring the hardest armies they can make.

Can we leave the cheap jibes at each other out of it please. Ta.

I have no problem taking advantage of the best my Sisters have to offer. But I am also a realist, and I know their weaknesses. This is an outdated codex. The only way you can argue it's broken is if you argue its lack of internal balance and its externally being weaker than fifth edition codices.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sisters are the queens of cheese.

No.

1: They don't need to. They just need to withstand it long enough to get into close combat. Which means two turns. First turn is withstood because of smoke, second turn it moves and they disembark. And yes, they'd be close enough because Sisters have to get up close themselves to do any damage. If you just stay back your own anti-tank can pound the Sisters silly.

2: Again, a full squad of Sisters does not cost less than a full squad of ten Marines. The codex is outdated, and therefor Sisters pay more points for their rhino, more points for their veteran, more points for their special weapons, and more points for smoke launchers, and so on and so forth. Seeing as so many people don't seem to get this, let me show ya:

Battle Sister Squad w/Meltagun, Heavy Flamer
-- Rhino w/Smoke
-- Veteran Superior w/Book, Bolter or BP+CCW

VERY basic Battle Sister Squad. How much does it cost in total? 204 points. Most people would agree that two meltaguns and a combiflamer would be more effective, however. That would add up to 212 points.

Tactical Marine Squad w/Meltagun, Heavy Bolter/Missile Launcher/Multi-Melta
-- Rhino
-- Veteran Sergeant w/BP+CCW or Bolter+BP

A basic tactical squad. How much does it cost in total? 205 points. Add in a power sword or combiweapon and it's 215/220 points, increasing its shooting ability or assault ability. And either way, they all have bolt pistols and frag grenades, so if your other units have enough anti-tank you might just want to drop the meltagun for the free flamer and make it into an assault unit for 215 points which can devastate any Sisters squad left out in the open by their destroyed transport.

Sisters are SO much CHEAPER aren't they?

edit: On another note, Assault Marines are two points cheaper than Seraphim. 210 points for ten assault marines with two flamers, add some more points for the power weapon or power fist. For Blood Angels these troops are even less expensive.

3. In which case their squads, which do NOT outnumber an infantry-based MEQ squad, will quickly be destroyed.

4. No they don't. That 3++ save is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad's size. That Str5 is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad size. Same with the AP1 on to-wound of 6 (not rending). And twelve always fails in the case fo the latter two. And these ACts of Faith are limited to just over one per squad. Don't give me all that crap about the Simaculrum Imperialis, it costs twenty points per squad if you want to use that, and I already proved that Sisters squads are not cheaper than Astartes squads even WITHOUT them. And that's only Tactical squads-- Grey Hunter and Chaos Space Marine squads laugh at the overpriced nature of Sisters and their equipment.

5. It's not rending. And if you've already used a lot of Divine Guidance in shooting you're probably already almost out of Faith points, iff indeed you aren't completely out.

6: The other seven DO matter. Or are you done ranting about Divine Guidance already? Against infantry, the killing capability of Sisters is in flamer and bolter spam. Remove the bolter spam and you've removed a great deal of their ability to provide wounds.

7. No, they're limited in every sense. Limited in number, limited in use, limited in how long they take effect, limited in and so on.

8: Sisters of Battle is a primarily shooty army. Their limitation when it comes to special weapons is not a small hindrance, as it forces them to get up close-- giving shooty armies time to pop their transports and devastate them with superior firepower, and giving assaulty armies time to pop their transports and get into assault.

9: Precisely my point, thank you. One out of three special weapons they have access to they never use because it sucks. The other two are very limited in scope, making them repetitive, predictable, and easy to counter.

10: If you think Bolt Pistols on tactical squads are useless, you are a bad player.

11: LD9 or LD10 stubborn is something the Guard can get easily. Marines can also get Stubborn if they want. The only thing unique about the BoSL is its effect on pinning, and very few armies use pinning anymore anyway.

12: Try "a vastly superior statline", or have you tried playing a non-Marine army in the last... ever?

13: Which means you have no anti-tank, therefor your enemy only needs to destroy your exorcists. not exactly a very difficult thing to do when fire is focused on them.

14: Go read the rules again then. You can always fail your Acts of Faith, and they're very limited in number. One per squad, plus two for your Canoness. Then if plus one for units that are destroyed or lose the ability to use Acts of Faith. Which makes them useless, so they might as well be destroyed. And each of these Acts of Faith are limited as to WHEN they can be activated as well, with Spirit of the Martyr notably giving your opponent the ability to make the act of faith useless by not shooting/assaulting that squad and instead shooting/assaulting a different squad which isn't so protected.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:Bret
or she can just buy artificer armor and turn her save invulnerable whenever she needs it. But I have to pass a leadership test on a ld 10 model! oh no!
AF

The Cloak of St. Aspira costs twenty points. And yes, a leadership test on an LD10 model. Which whether it passes or fails it uses up more of your limited Faith Points.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I thought everyone knew better than to start threads where there was any chance of 'Sisters' being mentioned?

I thought I'd give it a chance Never again....

Melissia wrote:4. No they don't. That 3++ save is activated based on rolling 2d6 under the squad's size. That Str5 is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad size. Same with the AP1 on to-wound of 6 (not rending). And twelve always fails in the case fo the latter two.

You got those backwards. Big squads are better at the +2 strength and AP1 Acts, little squads are better at the invulnerable save Act.

No, I just typed the wrong word (under instead of over).

There was a lot of text there, and that got through my proofreading

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:only book where you can get a 2++ on your general as often as you want...... or 3++ for an 11 point spud. god it's so annoying.

Also not true.

Could you explain?
<I'm aware that the 3++ has certain restrictions but the 2++ is there pretty much whenever you need it... cannonness is ld 10 I believe.>
AF

It only works 'whenever you need it' if you're spending all your faith points on keeping the cannoness alive and none on the rest of your army, and she's all by her self, which leaves her quite vulnerable to instant death by plasma, autocannons, lootas, and the like, or just being overwhelmed by small arms fire. She also requires a pretty high point investment to get that 2+ save, and is still a T3 3 wound model.

Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

That's what I tried to do..Mid game. It was too late by then.

Well, but at least you're doing the right thing. Getting some advice from Dakka and going back at him for another try.

Most people will shout, "Burn the codex! Burn the codex! His Long Fangs are penetrating my rear end! Golly!"

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

I also think this way. But people like you and I are in the minority, because apparently every time I beat someone with my Sisters it's because Sisters are overpowered (meanwhile, every time I lose it's because "lol women go back to kitchen yo" or some other stupid bull****.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

I also think this way. But people like you and I are in the minority, because apparently every time I beat someone with my Sisters it's because Sisters are overpowered (meanwhile, every time I lose it's because "lol women go back to kitchen yo" or some other stupid bull****.

Some people are in it for the instant gratification, not the challenge, which I don't understand.

Although I do absolutely love the look on the face of our local Space Wolves player when my Tau beat him.

SaintHazard wrote:Well, but at least you're doing the right thing. Getting some advice from Dakka and going back at him for another try.

Most people will shout, "Burn the codex! Burn the codex! His Long Fangs are penetrating my rear end! Golly!"

I'll have to make a couple lists and choose the best one after I start to see a pattern with him...He's pretty simple though, so I should be fine. His next list will be vaguely similar to this one.

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

Not at all. I love throwing my Necrons at the new bandwagon armies and seeing how well they can fair. 2500pt game vs Blood Angels actually didn't go horribly...until Astorath and the Sanguinor showed up =/

SaintHazard wrote:Am I the only person who, when faced with an army that seems a tad overpowered in some way, doesn't think, "OH LAWD this army is overpowered, I'm doomed, get me out of this hobby" but instead thinks, "Hey, this could be an interesting challenge, let's see what I can come up with to counter this list?"

Is that just me?

No you're not. I always come back for more and try to improve my game. If I thought that way, I'd wouldn't be playing. Sisters was my first army and it took quite some time to figure out how to use it as it involves alot of finesse. Anybody who says different is lying or ignorant of how they work IMO. I didn't learn though as I chose daemons as my second army. I had to reevaluate how to play with that army since it is vastly different fromt he norm.

andrewm9 wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Bret
or she can just buy artificer armor and turn her save invulnerable whenever she needs it. But I have to pass a leadership test on a ld 10 model! oh no!
AF

You realize that this can only be done a Leadership Roll if she is by herself and not in a squad and that the first failed 2+ or 2++ roll from an attack S 6 or over and she dies unless I buy yet another piece of wargear for more points which only works for the first time she is wounded bvy such an attack. The fabled jump canoness of doom costs about 160 points plus depending on how you kit her out. That and she is only WS 4, I 4, S 3, T 3. She is nowhere near as good as a SM Captain of comparable points or less. I'm not saying she is not useful by any means. People are throwing stuff about that I feel they have no idea what they are talking about. Sisters are not more point efficient than marines. I can and do beat marines on a regualr basis. I also lose to them as often as I win. It depends on how the marines player builds his army. Storm Shield Terminators are quite nasty to me as is the larger amounts fo long range weaponry that Marines have access to.

1. Yes, like you said, she can buy a wargear that protects her from instant death.
2. It's not much of a restriction that it only works the 1st time she fails a save against instant death; str 6 and above weapons aren't cheap to bring, whose going to bother shooting it at her when it's just going to bounce off her mighty invulnerable save? She's immune for all intents and purposes.
3. If you don't think she's as good as a captain try this: outfit the cannoness with: eviscerator, book of no instant death, jump pack, artificer armor, and have her fight against a marine captain as many times as you want. She'll win, I promise you. And she's cheaper. So I don't know how you can say the marine captain is *better*. Marine Captain vs Bloodthirster = dead marine captain. Marine captain vs. Hive Tyrant = dead marine captain. Canonness vs. Bloodthirster = dead blood thirster. Cannoness vs. Hive Tyrant = dead Hive Tyrant.


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Book
she has a jump pack she can just hide behind a rhino until she's ready to come out, then it's too late. Plasmaguns are short ranged weapons, in order to maneuver it into position I'll have to expose an entire unit to rending flamers. So basically I trade a 200+ unit for a shot at killing a 100+ point cannoness. Not exactly a good trade. Sisters shouldn't be running out of faith points anyway they're so easy for them to get and so easy for them to replace.
AF

I would say that your math is way off if you think that the Cannoness will kill a Bloodthirster in 1vs1. You got 2 faith points and strike last, that means that you got two close combat phases to kill the bloodthrister...3 attacks hitting on 5's and wounding on 4's, followed by a 4+ save means a dead Cannoness.

I'll give you the Hive Tyrant vs. Cannoness. But the Captain isn't far behind as he got the same s6 (with relic blade), isn't instant death'd either and have a permanent 3++ save if you went with the Storm Shield.

The blood thirster eats all three though.

Also the captain has a higher WS.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
she has a jump pack she can just hide behind a rhino until she's ready to come out, then it's too late.

Have you never heard of deep-strikers, outflankers, indirect fire weapons, move and shoot models, anything like that? Hiding behind a rhino doesn't do much if the rhino is targeted by a battle cannon or demolisher with the blast placed so it covers her too. WH probably didn't test to get the inv save either, if she was supposed to be safe back there...

Your argument only works if the WH player's opponent is always an idiot, and is a silly over-generalization more than anything else, just like your initial statement that 'they can get inv saves whenever they want,' which was what I was taking issue with in the first place.

Melissa
you said: This is an outdated codex. The only way you can argue it's broken is if you argue its lack of internal balance and its externally being weaker than fifth edition codices.
It's broken because you pay nothing for faith powers, and they in turn answer nearly everything.

you said: Sisters have to get up close themselves to do any damage. If you just stay back your own anti-tank can pound the Sisters silly.
This is true, but since rhinos are 4+ cover and all you need to make the army work is a bunch of sister squads + exorcists, you can spam a ton of them. It's just not hard for sisters to close. What's the main anti tank weapon right now? Meltaguns. Up close. People don't run lascannons because the 4+ wrecks their efficiency. The only ones who can get past it are guard because they're the only ones who can bring enough lascannons to get past it.

you said: a full squad of Sisters does not cost less than a full squad of ten Marines.
I don't own the sisters book so it's hard for me to look into it. I know your rhinos are 50 points, but that's only a 15 point swing over marines vs. a 50 point swing for the cost of 10 marines vs the cost of 10 sisters. Pretty strait forward comparison here. In addition, marines have to pay alot of points to bring a squad with generalist capabilities that the sisters get for free: plasmaguns and power weapons to cut through armor, power fist to get high strength. If you're going to advocate lascannons as an anwer to rhinos then you've got to include that cost as well, so I think you're going to end up with a very expensive marine squad to get anything like the total capabilities out of it that sisters get for nothing. Even if you don't though, no matter how you run the numbers, the sisters squad is cheaper. While 20-50 points might not seem like alot, if we do that trade 4 times in a game then you got a 80-200 point swing out of it. That is not insignificant at all; you can practically buy another sister squad for that at the outside, and in typical games sister squads do in fact out number marine squads.

you said: No they don't. That 3++ save is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad's size. That Str5 is activated based on rolling 2d6 over the squad size. Same with the AP1 on to-wound of 6 (not rending). And twelve always fails in the case fo the latter two. And these ACts of Faith are limited to just over one per squad.
No. Wrong. Acts of Faith are just over 2 per squad because you get them back when sister squads die. If a sister squad dumps 1 rending flamer attack on an equivalent points cost squad it's fine, it can die happy; if they get to do it twice you're in great shape. If every sister squad in the force gets to do it twice you win. Like I said acts of faith have restrictions, it's true, but the restrictions are slowed because they only keep you from using the power when you don't need it anyway.

you said: The other seven DO matter. Or are you done ranting about Divine Guidance already? Against infantry, the killing capability of Sisters is in flamer and bolter spam. Remove the bolter spam and you've removed a great deal of their ability to provide wounds.
HOW do they matter? 18 flamer attacks (6 each on average) that AUTO HIT vs 14 bolter shots that ROLL TO HIT. According to the odds it's 18 hits vs. 9 hits, making the 3 flamers 200% more effective than the 7 bolters, divine guidance or no. So again the majority of the squad's capability is contained in those 3 models. If you have to lose a couple of bolter spuds to save those guys with 3++ then it's just not an issue you should worry about, you ought to be hapy to see them go.

I'll stop ranting about divine guidance when they rewrite the frikkin book.

you said: Sisters of Battle is a primarily shooty army. Their limitation when it comes to special weapons is not a small hindrance, as it forces them to get up close-- giving shooty armies time to pop their transports and devastate them with superior firepower, and giving assaulty armies time to pop their transports and get into assault.
If by "shooty armies" you mean "guard" then sure. For everyone else the 4+ cover is debilitating. You just can't bring enough lascannons, you have no cover, your own transports are dog meat because of the exorcist. In a typical game of 40k it takes 2 turns to close with your opponent. If sisters go first that's ONE turn of shooting against FOUR OR MORE rhinos in cover. Do the math on that please, I think you'll find I'm right.

you said: Precisely my point, thank you. One out of three special weapons they have access to they never use because it sucks. The other two are very limited in scope, making them repetitive, predictable, and easy to counter.
lol ok whatever.

you said: if you think bolt pistols on tactical squads are limited you're a bad player.
lol ok whatever.

you said: Marines can also get Stubborn if they want. The only thing unique about the BoSL is its effect on pinning, and very few armies use pinning anymore anyway.
Yes. They can get it. By bringing a 200+ point character. This is what you need to understand: you get for free or next to nothing what everybody else pays *crazy* points for.

Now let's plug in lysander to your earlier statement about sisters being the same cost as marines: I bought lysander, you bought an *entire squad* of sisters, and, according to you, we broke even. How? I don't need Lysander to whip the crap out of sisters in close combat, my tacticals do it just fine. Lysander can't seperate from his squad or else the exorcists will blast him, if he stays in his squad I get no benefit other than stubborn, because the tacticals don't need the help. So you basically netted *an entire squad* of sisters for what it cost me to get what you can have for *next to nothing*

12: Try "a vastly superior statline", or have you tried playing a non-Marine army in the last... ever?
Vastly supeior to what? Half the armies in the game are MEQ. There's just nothing to make a comparison to. If you mean that marines have a vastly superior stat line to sisters you're wrong. They have a better stat line, but the diff. between hitting on 4s and hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s and wounding on 3s for me, and hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s for you, is marginal, not vast. If you were hitting on 6s and I was wounding on 2s *that* would be vast.

you said: Which means you have no anti-tank, therefor your enemy only needs to destroy your exorcists. not exactly a very difficult thing to do when fire is focused on them.
Ok, so should I be shooting rhinos or exorcists with the lascannons? They're both in cover, I have at the most 8 shots. You tell me, it's turn 1, I have to stop at least half of your rhinos to avoid getting burned off the board, I have one maybe two turns to do it; how exactly am I supposed to hit the exorcists? With WHAT? Yes I can get them if the game goes on long enough but frankly once all my rhinos are dead it doesn't matter what happens to the exorcists, they've done their job. It's armor 13 and it only costs 135 points if I remember right, so it's fairly tough to kill and it really doesn't hurt you that much if it dies past turn 2. Compare the firepower of an exorcist vs that of a tri las predator. Their roles are exactly the same, they're pretty much the same effectiveness, but the predator costs 30 more points; if we're running 3 copies of each tank it's a 100 point swing which AGAIN favors the sisters player.

you said: You can always fail your Acts of Faith, and they're very limited in number. One per squad, plus two for your Canoness. Then plus one for units that are destroyed or lose the ability to use Acts of Faith. Which makes them useless, so they might as well be destroyed. And each of these Acts of Faith are limited as to WHEN they can be activated as well, with Spirit of the Martyr notably giving your opponent the ability to make the act of faith useless by not shooting/assaulting that squad and instead shooting/assaulting a different squad which isn't so protected.
Melissa you should not be running out of faith points. Simple....As....That. 2 cannoness 5 sister squads 3 exorcists = 9 faith points, and whenever a squad dies you get them back, so over the course of the game, assuming you take 50% casualties (which is light but whatever) you have 14 faith points. How many times do you need to get rending flamers to win the game? 5? How many times do you need 3++ armor? 4? You don't even need the str. 5 power most of the time because again the frikkin exorcist destroys every other monstrous creature in the game. I just can't understand how it is you think you're going to run out of faith powers. Don't use them like a moron you'll have plenty I promise.
AF




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Bookwrack wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
she has a jump pack she can just hide behind a rhino until she's ready to come out, then it's too late.

Have you never heard of deep-strikers, outflankers, indirect fire weapons, move and shoot models, anything like that? Hiding behind a rhino doesn't do much if the rhino is targeted by a battle cannon or demolisher with the blast placed so it covers her too. WH probably didn't test to get the inv save either, if she was supposed to be safe back there...

Your argument only works if the WH player's opponent is always an idiot, and is a silly over-generalization more than anything else, just like your initial statement that 'they can get inv saves whenever they want,' which was what I was taking issue with in the first place.

Even in the scenario you outline, if the weapon doesn't scatter off, she can claim a 4++, 3++ if she goes to ground. Yes it's possible to take her out that way, but my comment was specifically in response to your advice about lootas or plasmaguns. Pick your scenario please, it's too hard to follow you when you jump around as needed to suit your arguments.
AF


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Oscarius wrote:I would say that your math is way off if you think that the Cannoness will kill a Bloodthirster in 1vs1. You got 2 faith points and strike last, that means that you got two close combat phases to kill the bloodthrister...3 attacks hitting on 5's and wounding on 4's, followed by a 4+ save means a dead Cannoness.

I'll give you the Hive Tyrant vs. Cannoness. But the Captain isn't far behind as he got the same s6 (with relic blade), isn't instant death'd either and have a permanent 3++ save if you went with the Storm Shield.

The blood thirster eats all three though.

Just run the combat please. Sister 2++ no instant death str 6 power weapon.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Same old crap he's been posting all thread

I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

I do not wish to keep repeating myself, so I am done with this.

Sisters are a pretty solid codex, there are just a couple of reasons they're seen in such contradictory lights.

First, they have a huge set of fiddly rules. For new players, this is intimidating, and can lead them to keep saying "wait, you get to do what now?" Similar to Necron We'll Be Back, faith powers operate in a way nothing else in 40k works. Couple this with a few sisters players that either don't themselves always know how to play them, or outright cheat, and among newer and weaker players it's easy to see sisters as a "broken" army.

Secondly, sisters simply have a giant weak spot competitively: long range shooting. Yes, the exorcist is nice, but it's a single weapon on AV13 and not that hard to silence. Outside of that, the army is really restricted to an effective range of 12". Nearly every high powered tournament army out there can pick them apart at range, and then wipe out the survivors at will. Long fangs, leafblower IG, lootas... all very capable at shutting down the Sisters advance.

Sisters occupy a strange place with Dark Eldar in the competitive totem pole. they're very good, and can win plenty of smaller events, as long as they don't run into the rock to their scissors, which, in larger events, is simply too likely.

Melissia wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Same old crap he's been posting all thread

I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

I do not wish to keep repeating myself, so I am done with this.

Good becuase I think he's just baiting us. I started to type this long post and saw myself explaining the intricacies of using Faith at every turn. Suffice to say its not as easy as AbaddonFidelis thinks it is, as it take skill to use in the appriopriate circumstances. I'm sure you know all of this. Faith can be totally random and absolutely fail you at times or be so awesome as to defy description.

The way he makes it sound Faith always works and it makes Sisters the uberz! If that were true you (along with alot of others including myself) wouldn't be clamoring for a new Dex like you do.

Forum rule breaching post removed.

Just for fun!

Keeping in mind the rules for Acts of Faith, we'll go ahead and assume that the cannoness has used Spirit of the Martyr (and 1 faith point) and gets the charge. Basically we're doing ideal circumstances for the Witchhunter player here.

She charges:

I5, the Bloodthirster goes. WS10 vs. WS4: 3s to hit. 2s to wound for S7 vs T3 which will also instakill on the second unsaved wound as the Mantle only protects against the first Insta-Death.

5 attacks * 2/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 1/6 chance vs. 2++ save = ~.46 wounds

I1 the cannoness goes. WS4 vs. WS10: 5s to hit. 4s to wound for S6 vs T6.

4 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * .5 chance to wound * 4++ save = .33... wounds


She will, even with the charge, inflict less overall wounds than the Bloodthirster. In subsequent rounds, her wounds drops even more, as she loses the attack for charging:

3 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * .5 chance to wound * 4++ save = .25 wounds, nearly half of what the 'Thirster is getting.


There are several caveats to this:

1: She's burning a Faith Point and making a Leadership test every single assault phase. If she fails, or runs out of Faith Points, she's dog meat for the 'Thirster. Even still, every point she burns is one less available for another squad to do something with.

2: The Cannoness effectively has half the wounds of the 'Thirster. He's got 4, she's got 3, but dies on the second Insta death meaning in this case she has effectively 2 wounds. She's less skilled, weaker, squishier, slower and isn't Fearless (so can be broken in CC and killed via Sweeping Advance) but she is a bit cheaper than a Thirster.

3: Support. At T3, the cannoness can be squished by any of the 'Thirster's allies that might be around. At T6, other sister's will have a hell of a time trying to wound the Thirster (especially when they have to hit on 5's also and the Thirster is getting a 3+ thanks to Iron Hide).

EDIT! 4: Instrument of Chaos! For 5 measley points, the Bloodthirster can win all draws! This gives it (an admittedly small) chance of killing the Cannoness via Sweeping Advance during any draws.

I can go into the Tyrant if you'd like, but a correctly kitted out CC Tyrant comes in a bit higher in points than the Cannoness, and that's before you add Tyrant Guard.

Melissia wrote:I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

Sisters aren't dominating largescale tournaments because the 3 best armies all have built in defenses.
Guard have enough lascannons to shoot down the rhinos. If sisters can't flame them they can't win.

Blood Angels have feel no pain and consequently *only* the rending attacks are a threat to them. Combined with wound allocation this
prevents the blood angels squads from being completely annihilated as a codex marine squad would be.

Space Wolves' main hammer unit is A) toughness 5 B) too small to let the sisters player get the best use out of their flamer, and C) on too large a base to, again, let the flame thrower do what it does effectively. Because they are toughness 5 they do not suffer instant death from exorcist missiles, allowing the space wolves player to take wounds on the lord or on the storm shield guy without fear.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Melissia wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Same old crap he's been posting all thread

I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

Sisters aren't dominating largescale tournaments because the 3 best armies all have built in defenses.
Guard have enough lascannons to shoot down the rhinos. If sisters can't flame them they can't win.

Blood Angels have feel no pain and consequently *only* the rending attacks are a threat to them. Combined with wound allocation this
prevents the blood angels squads from being completely annihilated as a codex marine squad would be.

Space Wolves' main hammer unit is A) toughness 5 B) too small to let the sisters player get the best use out of their flamer, and C) on too large a base to, again, let the flame thrower do what it does effectively. Because they are toughness 5 they do not suffer instant death from exorcist missiles, allowing the space wolves player to take wounds on the lord or on the storm shield guy without fear.
AF

Then I guess Sisters aren't as broken as you seem to think.

they are manageable if you're playing 1 of those 3 armies.

Or if you don't suck and are playing a different army?

The "top 3 armies" aren't the only ones that win tournaments.

Just the most common

Sorry Melissa, I'm confused. Do you have a counter point to make or do you just want to trade insults?
AF


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btw I dont know why you all are quoting me as saying "same old crap he's been posting all thread." That sounds like hazard to me. I don't post stuff like that.


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Steamdragon
don't have a sisters codex around but I believe she can use power of the emperor or whatever to make herself str 5, hence str 10 with an eviscerator. ie she wounds on a 2. just saying.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sorry Melissa, I'm confused. Do you have a counter point to make or do you just want to trade insults?
AF


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btw I dont know why you all are quoting me as saying "same old crap he's been posting all thread." That sounds like hazard to me. I don't post stuff like that.


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Steamdragon
don't have a sisters codex around but I believe she can use power of the emperor or whatever to make herself str 5, hence str 10 with an eviscerator. ie she wounds on a 2. just saying.
AF

Only if the cannoness rolls under her current squad size, that is 1 in your examples as you have her dueling other HQ choices, on 2 dice.Which is Impossible.

EDIT: darn spelling.

ICs take tests in a different way. At least for the invulnerable save power they do. I dont have a copy of the book so I can't look into it myself, sorry.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:ICs take tests in a different way. At least for the invulnerable save power they do. I dont have a copy of the book so I can't look into it myself, sorry.
AF

Ah, thats true. Sorry, i didn't see that IC section at the bottom of the acts of faith page.

Still, you have to admit that it's hardly a certain thing, even LD10 models fail leadership tests sometimes

yes.... sometimes they do... and the blood thirster has a 4++ which is definitely good. sisters do fail their faith powers from time to time......


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should have said str 8. I forgot strength bonuses are applied after the doubling effect of power fists and eviscerators.

S8 or S10 vs T6 doesn't really matter, you're still wounding on 2s either way. That would also require her to burn another faith point though, which means each round you're burning 2 points to kill 1 single model. It also doesn't change the math too much:

She charges:

I5, the Bloodthirster goes. WS10 vs. WS4: 3s to hit. 2s to wound for S7 vs T3 which will also instakill on the second unsaved wound as the Mantle only protects against the first Insta-Death.

5 attacks * 2/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 1/6 chance vs. 2++ save = ~.46 wounds

I1 the cannoness goes. WS4 vs. WS10: 5s to hit. 2s to wound for S8 vs T6.

4 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 4++ save = .55... wounds


So in the charging round, she has a slight edge over the 'Thirster. Not a huge deal, as like I said the Thirster has effectively twice as many wounds. After the charge:

3 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 4++ save = .416... wounds, still less than the 'Thirster is getting.


Also keep in mind that I haven't factored in the Ld test for either Spirit of the Martyr or for Hand of the Emperor. You're also burning through 2 Faith Points every assault Phase to do that. With the timing on when they have to be used, you're almost invariably wasting some of them. The 'Thirster might completely whiff his attacks making Spirit of the Martyr pointless (unlikely), or you might completely whiff making Hand of the Emperor (which has to be used before you roll to hit) completely pointless (much more likely with only 3 attacks that hit on 5s).


Just for fun I test rolled this a few times with a friend. It didn't go well for me at all. (I am completely aware that test rolling is not really a valid diagnostic tool, especially with my luck )

Just had a guy help win an apocalypse game with sisters only.
Not broken. You just need to learn how to USE IT CORRECTLY. and then its fine.

Doctadeth wrote:Just had a guy help win an apocalypse game with sisters only.
Not broken. You just need to learn how to USE IT CORRECTLY. and then its fine.

An evil way to use Sisters in Apoc is if you can can combine Flank March and Careful Planning. With some freely spent Divine guidance and coming on first turn right on top of the enemy, they don't really stand much of chance unless you have some bad tolls. Combining 2 assets like that though is a bit of stretch in a "normal" Apoc game since there are no formations which grant extras to the Sisters unlike Space Marines and IG.

Sisters currently take a bit of finesse and skill to make them successful.

Melissia wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Same old crap he's been posting all thread

I have not read the results of a single major tournament where Sisters placed even in the top five. The army is not broken, it's barely even competitive against a REAL competitive player.

Sisters aren't broken. They aren't even in the running for a top tier army. They're only marginally middle tier, and even then only if you entirely ignore half the units in the codex. The army is broken, yes-- but only because it's took weak, not too strong.

I do not wish to keep repeating myself, so I am done with this.

Agreed 100 %



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Doctadeth wrote:Just had a guy help win an apocalypse game with sisters only.
Not broken. You just need to learn how to USE IT CORRECTLY. and then its fine.

Also agreed 110 %

dragon
even if she only stands her ground and breaks even, she costs half what the blood thirster does. she's doing pretty good. I think we both know that hand of the martyr and armor of faith will almost certainly go off..... if you factor them in the odds for the sister go down a little, but not much.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:even if she only stands her ground and breaks even

She doesn't.

Two wounds and she's dead. Two failed 2++ rolls and she's dead. Just ask any Space Marine player who uses Terminators how often their 2+ saves fail.

Steamdragon did the math. He wrote:
5 attacks * 2/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 1/6 chance vs. 2++ save = ~.46 wounds

This is with the cannoness charging. Less than a 50/50 shot of failing even once. And I have to do get past it twice? With a model that's twice as expensive?

Come on Melissa....

And your point is? Oh wait you don't have one. I will repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:Two failed 2++ rolls and she's dead. Just ask any Space Marine player who uses Terminators how often their 2+ saves fail.

Sisters are not broken, but they do have cheesy convoluted and simply out-dated rules that allow many who play them to exploit their opponents ignorance of said rules. Both in legal and illegal ways.

The Sisters are out of date and due for a new codex in the next year or so(I bet before x-mas 2011). As to what will happen with the next codex?
My money is that whatever the rules, no matter how good, people in Houston will be able to hear Mellissa up in Dallas howling in fury over how GW ruined the fluff. That is even including that they make Sister seperate from the =I= like "M" wants.

@OP-Several posters in the thread have given you good advice and you seem to no longer feel that the WH are OP. Perhaps the thread has served its purpose.

Melissia wrote: I do not wish to keep repeating myself, so I am done with this.

If you want to continue this conversation, Melissa, why don't you go back to the post I wrote the other day and we can pick up from there? Otherwise you're better off sticking to your resolution, than just ducking back in to throw out cheap jibes and insults.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Less than a 50/50 shot of failing even once. And I have to do get past it twice? With a model that's twice as expensive?

That's less than a 50% chance of failing once in the first Assault phase, if she charges. Then, in the Bloodthirster's turn she has to burn another two faith points, and the Bloodthirster gets another 50% chance. Once she stops spending faith points, either because she runs out or because the rest of the army is going without, the Bloodthirster kills her in a single assault phase.

yes. if she drops her armor of faith or whatever she dies.

sisters have enough faith points to keep it up though. If you play 5 sister squads + 2 cannonness + 1 seraphim squad + 3 exorcists they have 10 faith points, adn they get them back every time something dies. Assume they take 50% casualties, they have 15 faith points to spend over the course of the game. Yes they have to keep using them but sowhat? It's a combat with a blood thirster it's important, and they have plenty of them. As for hand of the emperor or whatever she doesn't actually have to use it; it helps but it isn't crucial.

the 50/50 chance is only to inflict a single wound. The combat could potentially last 3-4 turns, the majority of the game. If a 150 point sister ties up a 250 point blood thirster in close combat for the majority of the game, who wins?
AF

What's the point of spending so much faith points on a bloodthirster when you could just kill it with Exorcists? That's a stupid and wasteful tactic.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:The combat could potentially last 3-4 turns, the majority of the game.

Don't base your argument on what might potentially happen, look at what is likely to happen. If on average the Bloodthirster causes 0.46 wounds per Assault phase, it will take an average of 4-5 Assault phases for it to kill her: 2 Daemon Assault phases and 2-3 Sisters Assault phases.

Also, it's really 3-4 combat phases, which means that the Blood Thirster is locked for 1-2 movement phases, hardly most of the game...and there is a decent chance of something else charging into the combat, the army doesn't exist in a vacuum.

good point melissa. again sisters have the upper hand. love it when you make my case for me

No, I'm telling you you have no damn clue how to play the faction. You have repeatedly shown you don't know what you are talking about, and yet you continue to insist that somehow wasteful use of Faith Points proves that in some insane, unlikely situation Sisters might be broken, and yet you have no actual proof.

Alex, Oscarius
what steam dragon's math shows is that the cannoness is more likely to wound the blood thirster than the blood thirster is to wound the cannoness. Effectively in this combat the canonness is a 2 wound model, so that helps her; all the same a model that costs half or less what a blood thirster costs has an excellent chance of destroying it in close combat, or at least locking it up. But like Melissa said you can just blast it with the exorcist so why bother.

Run the numbers on her in combat with any of the best close combat stuff in the game. I promise that for every one you find that can beat the canonness strait up I can find you three who will get wiped, no contest; in either case the model she's fighting will almost certainly cost more than she does. This is because she gets a 2++ for free, is immune to instant death (the 1st time, whoopity, how many times are they going to fail a 2++?), because she carries a high strength (potentially str 8) power weapon, all for a fraction of the cost of the opposing model, which very often cannot get better than a 3++, is not immune to instant death even once, and cannot use such a high strength weapon for fear of getting wiped before getting to use it, which the sister does not have to fear, because, again, 2++. The numbers, both in points and in odds, are all on her side.
AF


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Well Melissa I'm sorry you're feeling so pissed off and emotional that you can't keep the conversation civil. Really. I am.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yes. if she drops her armor of faith or whatever she dies.

sisters have enough faith points to keep it up though. If you play 5 sister squads + 2 cannonness + 1 seraphim squad + 3 exorcists they have 10 faith points, adn they get them back every time something dies. Assume they take 50% casualties, they have 15 faith points to spend over the course of the game. Yes they have to keep using them but sowhat? It's a combat with a blood thirster it's important, and they have plenty of them. As for hand of the emperor or whatever she doesn't actually have to use it; it helps but it isn't crucial.AF

First you want to make it a one-on-one battle and when your tactics fail at that you make a scenerio that's more to your liking. In the one-on-one the Canoness gets a whole 2 faith points. That's good for 2 phases or 2 abilities for 1 phase. So, at best you can use any ability twice during the duel. Now to be fair when the sister dies she gets some more points for her faith pool but I think it's fair to say that Elvis has left the building at that point.
As for the scenerio above what are you giving the bloodthirster to work with at an equivalent value? Or are you just saying that an entire roster of sisters shouldn't be able to annihilate even the toughest demon who's on his own? Also you infer that whenever any sister dies the player gets faith points which is absolute bunk. Sure if you want to give up a canoness (note the one "n") or a sister superior then you can gain points but you are usually hurting a unit more by removing a key character than helping in that particular fight. Basically you seem to want to prove a point that isn't there. A blood-thirster is more than a match for a Canoness in a duel and a single blood thirster is no match for a company of sisters we all know this so what is your point?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what steam dragon's math shows is that the cannoness is more likely to wound the blood thirster than the blood thirster is to wound the cannoness.

No, it doesn't. It shows that the Canoness is more likely to wound the Bloodthirster than vice versa in the first Assault phase, and only if the Canoness charges. In every following Assault phase she does less damage than the Bloodthirster, and she strikes last, meaning she'll get one less Assault phase worth of damage in than her opponent.

AF: I wouldn't call that an excellent chance, I would say 2, maybe 3 wounds on the bloodthirster before the Cannoness gets it, meaning that you pretty much brake even (half a bloodthirster for a whole cannoness) but you've also lost 2-4 faith points (pending on success, including the +2 for a dead hero)

So you mean that a special anti-MC/character hunter is doing good killing...MC's and characters? How about a decent sized ork mob or hormogants, how about things that can deep strike deep in your army with s6+ weapons. Heck, a couple of battlesuits w. Plasma have a decent chance of killing the cannoness off in a single shooting phase (unless you activate the power, in which case they'll shoot at something else)

Anyway, I'm not saying that the Cannoness is BAD, far from it. But I think you overestimate her, and the whole army, slightly. It seems that you think that Exorcist's and "rending" flamers will handle everything, which I don't really agree with.

And yet, you still have yet to actually prove anything. Your constant, barely coherent arguments do nothing for your cause.

Yes, a Canoness might be able to hold a Bloodthirster's attention for two turns, if she gets lucky and you spend eight faith points on her for it, out of ten in total. Two turns. Out of five or more.

And the rest of the Sisters army has to suffer with having no faith points against a full fledged Daemon army that can rip them to shreds in assault (Daemonettes, any Khorne unit), and even has nasty shooting units which can rip them to shred in the shooting phase, too (Flamers of Tzeentch, Soul Grinders, etc). ALL of which deep strike, meaning that your exorcists are effectively doomed to getting side and rear shotted to death from any Tzeentch units.

And with the entire army having Invulnerable saves, there's always a 1/3 chance of your exorcists shots (3.5 shots average, 66.7% chance of each shot hitting, 83.3% chance of each shot wounding, leaving roughtly 1.9 wounds on average) being saved. 1/2 chance for Tzeentch creatures, all of which can rip open your transports with a Bolt of Tzeentch and are relatively cheap to boot.

Then of course Nurgle creatures all have high toughness, FNP, and are even cheaper, making them resist bolter shock and flamer spam (the primary means of dealing wounds to infantry models). Khorne creatures will still probably strike first (they're at least I4) and they have power weapons. Slaanesh creatures will definitely strike first and have rending, and sometimes even Hit and Run.

And if Sisters are spending all of their Faith Points on tying up a single monstrous creature, that means they have to rely entirely on exorcists, bolter shock and flamer spam to get rid of everything that's left. You can't, say, assault a Tzeentch unit and use Hand of the Emperor to try and overwhelm it in an assault (lots of S5 attacks is better than bolter shock when the Tzeentch creatures are WS2). Or prevent a Sisters squad from falling back off the board with Light of the Emperor. Or use Divine Guidance to let your squad have a better chance of wounding a Bloodcrusher or Daemon Prince.

Once again, you have no clue what you are talking about. You do not know much about Sisters. Or Daemons for that matter. Or 40k.

In b4 Melissia locks another thread for lack of civility.

Melissia wrote:And yet, you still have yet to actually prove anything. Your constant, barely coherent arguments do nothing for your cause.

Yes, a Canoness might be able to hold a Bloodthirster's attention for two turns, if she gets lucky and you spend eight faith points on her it, out of ten in total. Two turns. Out of five or more.

Who is having coherency issues?

@ Melissa- As one who is mainly lurking, I would still would like to ask you to knock off the personal attacks. They interfere with the discussion, damage your credibility and usually lead to de-railing the discussion to the point of you adding another locked thread to the long list of ones ruined by your vitrol.

SpitfireArsonist wrote:In b4 Melissia locks another thread for lack of civility.

What? So far all I have seen her do is argue. Well. pointing out that someone's wrong and that their arguments are inane isn't a lack of civility.

focusedfire wrote:

Who is having coherency issues?

@ Melissa- As one who is mainly lurking, I would still would like to ask you to knock off the personal attacks. They interfere with the discussion, damage your credibility and usually lead to de-railing the discussion to the point of you adding another locked thread to the long list of ones ruined by your vitrol.

"She done locked my thread she did!"

Leo
yes I assume the presence of other elements of both armies. If it were a strait up fight we'd have to have 250 points of sisters minimum, which, again, favors the sisters side.
AF


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Oscar
well if you just look at the averages sure. Remember though that the blood thirsters 4++ will allow some things through that the sisters 2++ will block; ie were talking about whole wounds here not fractions of wounds.

I'll grant the blood thirster example isn't as heavily in the sisters favor as I said; but that their damage averages out so close to each other when one costs just over half what the other costs is to me indicative of an imbalance.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Leo
yes I assume the presence of other elements of both armies. If it were a strait up fight we'd have to have 250 points of sisters minimum, which, again, favors the sisters side.
AF

No it doesn't.

With the way you have your Canoness kitted out, the most you could afford is a five member Celestian squad, which you couldn't really upgrade. This reduces your chance of getting the Acts of Faith you want to use, making them more vulnerable, and since you only have three faith points you better not fail any of them-- once they run out, the squad is dead. And because they aren't jump infantry, they won't be getting the charge.

Then your almost automatic passing of the Faith point test becomes a lot more murky. Now you have to account for how many extra sisters you have and you have to base the test on that number. But why not make the Thirster 300 points (with options) since a really supped up Canoness cost about 200 and give her a small retinue. If you played it out ala kill team the Thirster would probably do fairly well considering it would be down in number of attacks and wounds and the sisters can concentrate their attacks. I'm not sure if it would win but I can practically guarentee that there won't be many sisters left on the board by the end.

AF:

Well, my fantasy clanrat champion have killed a dwarf thane with re-rollable 2+ save too.

In these kind of situations (i.e. da interwebs) I think you can only do these one vs. one fights with averages, as the dice is always random.
Anyway, I don't think the imbalance is that great. Remember that the Canoness in this case is pretty much a MC/Character hunter (Like you said, 2++ save, immune to ID, s6-8 weapon) so she should do rather good against a bloodthirster, even if it's a stretch to try to kill a "full health" one.

Melissa
the last time I adressed your arguments in detail you completely ignored them. You'll do the same thing here so why should I bother? If you want to have a serious conversation that 1000+ word post I wrote you, not your cheap jibes and insults, needs to be the starting point.
AF



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Oscar
if she's going to be that good she ought to be coated appropriately. For my money I'm against anyone getting a 2++ under any circumstances whatever. It makes for degenerate game play.
AF

That's because many of your "in detail" arguments I have already disputed or refuted several times in this thread, and multiple posters aside from me have done much the same. As I said, I do not feel like repeating myself. When you present something new, I respond.

But I will continue to ignore the more banal and tiresome parts of your arguments which have already been refuted.

AF:

Yes, I have to admit that a 2++ save is OTT, in any way.
Luckily I can only think of 2 other things that have them (DE Special Item, Ork Special character) and one thing that is better (fortuned Eldrad). And as with all these things it 1 model per army who has it and not one is completely failsafe.

And we play a game of dice, meaning that that 1 will come up sooner or later.

Edit: 3'rd time I've had to edit in an "AF:" to make it clear who I'm speaking with...

But then, over-the-top units are the norm for 40k anyway.

Deep striking land raiders, longfangs able to target multiple units, being able to move your opponents army around, most vehicles in the IG codex, the doom of malantai...

Every army has something which is OTT. It adds flavor to the game. And since every army has something, it doesn't necessarily break balance.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I'll grant the blood thirster example isn't as heavily in the sisters favor as I said; but that their damage averages out so close to each other when one costs just over half what the other costs is to me indicative of an imbalance.

Only because you are incorrectly assuming that 1 wound inflicted on a Bloodthirster has equal value to 1 wound inflicted on the Canoness. In a 1 on 1 match, the Canoness will only inflict about 1.6 wounds on the Bloodthirster before dying, which only represents half of the Bloodthirster's survivability.

And you're still talking about expending your entire army's supply of Faith points on this one combat.

@AF:
The blood thirster example is a bad one, admit you were wrong about it and move on.

@Everyone else:

I think you guys are missing AF's larger point. The SoB hero can be on par with most codex's close combat heroes for a fraction of the cost, (albeit you will need to spend 2 or more faith points to do it.)

And its precisely because of faith points (which are essentially free) that the SoB army can be amazing. Again noone is claiming "broken", but the SoB army gets essentially free game changing abilities. And their only drawback is that their squads can only take flamers and meltas... Well that's all my guard army takes anyways so no dice there.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Melissa
the last time I adressed your arguments in detail you completely ignored them. You'll do the same thing here so why should I bother? If you want to have a serious conversation that 1000+ word post I wrote you, not your cheap jibes and insults, needs to be the starting point.

In detail? The only thing that has been derived from your arguements is that a Canoness that costs about half the points of a Bloodthirster can wound it and tie it up in close combat for two turns if she gets the charge.

For my money I'm against anyone getting a 2++ under any circumstances whatever.

Oh noes! However shall I deal with those Over-powered terminators!

Red_Lives wrote:@AF:
The blood thirster example is a bad one, admit you were wrong about it and move on.

@Everyone else:

I think you guys are missing AF's larger point. The SoB hero can be on par with most codex's close combat heroes for a fraction of the cost, (albeit you will need to spend 2 or more faith points to do it.)

True if you want your Canoness to be on par with other heroes for 1 turn. After that you are seriously digging into the rest of your armie's fath point reserve, which pretty much kills their survivability.

And its precisely because of faith points (which are essentially free) that the SoB army can be amazing. Again noone is claiming "broken", but the SoB army gets essentially free game changing abilities. And their only drawback is that their squads can only take flamers and meltas... Well that's all my guard army takes anyways so no dice there.

Not exactly free, and also play an integral part in your army.
AF IS claiming that they're broken, or at least overpowered. The Acts of Faith can be exploited, and are very annoying for players who don't realise that acts of faith must be made before any shooting takes place, but they're not game changing, they're just boosts to certain units at certain times. They're not an Ace in the Hole, Acts of Faith are (essentially) pick-me ups that can increase the effectiveness of SoB squads.
BTW, you don't see any usefulness in Lascannons?

@EF

Lazcannons aren't that good. They are a long range anti-tank weapon. In this edition if they are shooting at a vehicle with cover they become essentially useless. Since cover reduces their chance to destroy a vehicle even more. The only time I ever take lazcannons in my guard is on vendettas and everyday I take more and more Valkyries and less vendettas. In my experience meltaguns are the king of AT. (Since it will pen better, and if intelligent the opponent will not receive cover from terrain) Also SoB have an exorcist which is really good because of that AP1 at smashing transports open, leaving the meltas to do more important jobs of heavy tank hunting. (Anything AV13 or greater)

Also, I said essentially free not exactly free. Faith points are not calculated into the cost of any SoB unit. Making them better than they should cost. (Granted their transports cost too much so in today's environment it evens out)

SoB are not a top tier army because they lack a handful of useful tools needed to be so. They lack any useful scout/infiltrate units. And they lack a "Fast" vehicle killer (No Attack bikes, Speeders etc)

Red_Lives wrote:Faith points are not calculated into the cost of any SoB unit.

Veteran Sister Superior.

Alex
we've been over the faith point thing; every time I give my explanation it gets ignored, then two posts later someone brings it up again. Just scroll up; I'm not ignoring the point, Im just tired of repeating myself.
AF


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Red
yes it wasn't the best example. Admitted. That they are even comparable shows a gameplay imbalance, since the canonness is so much less expensive.


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EF
it was before the whole blood thirster conversation. Scroll up.
Terminators don't have a 2++ they have a 2+
AF


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Oscar
yes that's all I'm saying. It's over the top. And free :|

Melissia wrote:

Red_Lives wrote:Faith points are not calculated into the cost of any SoB unit.

Veteran Sister Superior.

Except no, because all 3rd ed and early 4th codexi had an optional purchase upgrade to have veteran sgts. The benefit was higher LD 1 more A and access to the wargerar section. That's what you pay for with the vet sister, the faith point is still a free bonus.

No unit in the SoB army pays for faith points, none.

LAST WARNING IN THIS THREAD.

KEEP IT CIVIL, OR YOU WILL FACE.... sanctions.

Thanks!

Red_Lives wrote:Faith points are not calculated into the cost of any SoB unit.

Neither are IG orders. Or Space Marine Combat Squads.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:2. Yes in an assault MEQ whip sisters, but since sisters do the same to marines in shooting, it's a question of points cost. 11 vs 16, the sisters are more efficient in this fight. Simply put the sisters can afford to trade like that, the marine player cannot.AF

I've seen several people make this point. However, it is not quite that simple. For 11 pts. you get bubkis. You have to add a Vet, power weapon, maybe a storm bolter, 2 specials or special/heavy, the imagifer (required really), and let's add frag and kraq to be as MEQ as possible and a squad of 10 costs 214 pts. (That is no book or others extras); plus 50 for a rhino.

I am not intending to continue any arguments, but feel it is important for those who are not so familiar with the army of its realities. So that would be 264 points to put 10 Sisters on the table with mobility and 2 meltas. Marines ar not nearly as costly. Just a point.


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AlexHolker wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:what steam dragon's math shows is that the cannoness is more likely to wound the blood thirster than the blood thirster is to wound the cannoness.

No, it doesn't. It shows that the Canoness is more likely to wound the Bloodthirster than vice versa in the first Assault phase, and only if the Canoness charges. In every following Assault phase she does less damage than the Bloodthirster, and she strikes last, meaning she'll get one less Assault phase worth of damage in than her opponent.

One other thing to consider. I, at least, have never seen someone play a Canoness with an eviscerator. I only see blessed weapons. They are by no means bad, making her S5 with one reroll. I think she is going to be in serious trouble against a thirster; unless help comes pretty quick.

In short: not broken, kinda gimp in some areas, excel in others. Bulk fire does the job as it does with most other armies. Discussion solved, moving on to the next one.

Kind of. How can a small weak IG femal in PA carry a freaking HF and Enhanced super humans can't? Except for sterngaurd. they're unics.

Sabatine wrote:Kind of. How can a small weak IG femal in PA carry a freaking HF and Enhanced super humans can't? Except for sterngaurd. they're unics.

You misspelled "don't". The use of heavy flamers as an infantry weapon lies outside of the traditional Space Marine doctrine, that's all. It doesn't mean Space Marines are physically incapable of carrying them, no more than their failure to use lasguns is indicative that that weapon is too heavy for a Space Marine to carry.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:That they are even comparable shows a gameplay imbalance, since the canonness is so much less expensive.

They're not comparable. The Canoness stands zero chance against the Bloodthirster in all regards. Better example could perhaps be Avatar?

EF
it was before the whole blood thirster conversation. Scroll up.
Terminators don't have a 2++ they have a 2+
AF

Termies can have 2+/3++. DE Archon can have a 2++ that stays there until he fails. You seem to be forgetting that the canoness doesn't have this 2++ as a permanent feature.

Oscar
yes that's all I'm saying. It's over the top. And free :|

*le sigh*

Sabatine wrote:Kind of. How can a small weak IG femal in PA carry a freaking HF and Enhanced super humans can't? Except for sterngaurd. they're unics.

Also, if normal humans can carry heavy flamers, why shouldn't she?

Sabatine wrote:... they're unics.

Eunuchs or Unique? I'm confused here.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sabatine wrote:... they're unics.

Eunuchs or Unique? I'm confused here.

I'm not certain beung eunuchs would help them heft a heavy flamer... though I suppose less concern for their dangly bits might make them a bit braver?

I think he was trying to say that Sternguard are unique among Space Marines. Maybe they're unique because they're secretly eunuchs?

Unique eunuchs?

Perhaps even unique eunuchs from New York?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:That they are even comparable shows a gameplay imbalance, since the canonness is so much less expensive.

They're not comparable. The Canoness stands zero chance against the Bloodthirster in all regards.

Look at steam dragon's math. You're very clearly mistaken.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Look at steam dragon's math. You're very clearly mistaken.

Look, it's incredibly simple:
The Canoness dies after two wounds.
The Bloodthirster dies after four wounds.
Therefore, even if she can cause wounds on the Bloodthirster almost as quickly as the Bloodthirster can cause wounds on her, she still loses.

Some people have trouble with simple math.

StReamdragon! There's an R!



I'm not sure they're the ones misunderstanding my math AF. Even with the charge, and burning 2 Faith Points per player turn (i.e., 4 per game turn), the Canoness comes out behind in the long run. Sure, she's a ~130ish model holding up a 250 point model, but again that's only if you decide not to support your 'Thirster with another unit. The canonness isn't the only unit capable of tarpitting a 'Thirster for a fraction of the cost, after all. And the chance of failure for a Ld10 Canoness on a Ld test is ~8.33...%.

And you can go ahead and say that "well, she might hold it up for 4 or 5 turns", but the math doesn't really have your back on this one. Keep in mind also that the math swings the 'Thirsters way if he gets the charge (and thus the extra attack). Remember, my math was ideal circumstances for the Witchhunter and ignored the Ld tests, and she still lost in the long run. (And by long run I mean 1-2 player turns).


I'm forgetting who made the other points I'm responding to though:

Cost of Faith points is factored into the Veteran Sister Upgrade. Sure, you get other stat bonuses for the upgrade, but remember a unit that loses it's Veteran for whatever reason (much easier in 5th edition mind you) is no longer Faithful, and thus incapable of using Acts of Faith. Having gobs of Faith Points doesn't help when you can't actually use them at all. A Space Marine unit doesn't lose ATSKNF because its sergeant gets killed, Orks can still use the Mob Rule if the Nob is gone, Chaos Book Marines are still Fearless if the Aspiring Champion, and IG units can still receive orders if their unit commander is dead.

Adding another 120 points worth of Sisters accomplishes little if anything. It actually makes things harder for the sisters in the end. 120 points gets you another 10 sisters with a Veteran to make them faithful. That with the cannoness adds up to the value of the 'Thirster:

1. You're now burning minimum 2 faith points per turn. If you don't use Spirit of the Martyr on both units, the Thirster directs his attacks against the non-invulnerable save group and simply slaughters them. Also keep in mind that Spirit requires you to roll equal to or OVER the squad size. Good luck with either 10 sisters or 10 + Canoness.

2. The regular sisters can barely hit/hurt the Thirster. They get 1 piddly attack that hits on 5s, wounds on 6s, and the 'Thirster gets his 3+ armor. Again, you could use Hand of the Emperor to get the +2 str, but you're now burning 4 points per turn for minimal gain.



2++ saves are not a panacea making a character unkillable. I can't begin to detail how many times I've seen a Shadow Field (2+ Inv. until first failure) shut down on the first shot. I have never once seen one last an entire battle.


Anyone claiming Acts of Faith are truly game-changing has probably never actually fielded sisters. I'm not saying that to be accusative, mind you, they just look better on paper than they actually end up being. Spirit of the Martyr sounds awesome, until you realize you're mostly using it to protect small units or spending an extra 20 points to hopefully get it off on a slightly larger unit. When you truly need it (when your units are full strength) it's almost never actually going to be there. Plus almost every example in this thread so far looks at a single unit in isolation to the rest of the army. Sure, a canoness with a 2++ save is awesome, but when you're staring down groups of enemies with AP3 or better weapons, or maybe in charge range with power weapons, you'll start seeing that there really aren't enough to go around. They may save a unit for a little while, but they certainly won't save your army if you play badly.



... I just realized we have Multi-quote, but I'm not going back after typing all that up

streamdragon wrote:

She charges:
I5, the Bloodthirster goes. WS10 vs. WS4: 3s to hit. 2s to wound for S7 vs T3 which will also instakill on the second unsaved wound as the Mantle only protects against the first Insta-Death.
5 attacks * 2/3 chance to hit * 5/6 chance to wound * 1/6 chance vs. 2++ save = ~.46 wounds
I1 the cannoness goes. WS4 vs. WS10: 5s to hit. 4s to wound for S6 vs T6.
4 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * .5 chance to wound * 4++ save = .33... wounds


She will, even with the charge, inflict less overall wounds than the Bloodthirster. In subsequent rounds, her wounds drops even more, as she loses the attack for charging:
3 attacks * 1/3 chance to hit * .5 chance to wound * 4++ save = .25 wounds, nearly half of what the 'Thirster is getting.

Emperors Faithful wrote:They're not comparable. The Canoness stands zero chance against the Bloodthirster in all regards.

Does anyone else see a mismatch here?

She should be strength 8. hand of faith or whatever.
so 1/3 x5/6 x1/2 = 5/36 x4 attacks = 0.55
like I said her effectiveness is comparable but their point cost is not

Emperors Faithful: your problem isnt with me. it's with the math. just look.
Bookwrack: yeah. I'll say.


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streamdragon wrote:Even with the charge, and burning 2 Faith Points ... I just realized we have Multi-quote, but I'm not going back after typing all that up

your math reflexts 2 faith points per player turn. mine reflects 4. remember you get faith points back. If you start with 10 and take 50% casualties you have 15 to spend. spending 4 to kill a bloodthirster isn't an issue, although her cost is really better spent tying it up, since the sister player is still neutralizing a much larger target with a smaller one at a paltry cost at faith points. my math reflexts a caononess who wants to win the combat not merely extend it.

Um, you do realize my math shows the wounds dealt out by the model, right? Not wounds taken?

So the Canoness will, on average, inflict .55 wounds given the charge AND both Acts of Faith. The 'Thirster will inflict ~.46 wounds per round regardless (more if he gets the charge, actually). Over all, the canoness winds up losing.

A 30 man ork squad with nob comes it at 190 points. Still less than the 250 cost of the 'Thirster, but will hold it up considerably longer. Hell, a 20 man ork squad with nob comes it at the Canoness's 130 points and would slaughter her mercilessly. Doesn't mean either is overpowered or underpowered. GW has stated numerous times that comparing the points value of a single unit to the points value of another single unit is meaningless. They have to be looked at in the context of the army.

Klawz wrote:

Sabatine wrote:Kind of. How can a small weak IG femal in PA carry a freaking HF and Enhanced super humans can't? Except for sterngaurd. they're unics.

Also, if normal humans can carry heavy flamers, why shouldn't she?

Check the options for a IG COY Command... IG can carry H. Flamers. But only at a company level. This is probably because supplying this size equipment at a section or platoon level doesn't make a whole lot of sense, when this sort of equipment would be brought up from the rear... So yes... the female in PA can heft a heavy flamer.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
your math reflexts 2 faith points per player turn. mine reflects 4. remember you get faith points back. If you start with 10 and take 50% casualties you have 15 to spend. spending 4 to kill a bloodthirster isn't an issue, although her cost is really better spent tying it up, since the sister player is still neutralizing a much larger target with a smaller one at a paltry cost at faith points. my math reflexts a caononess who wants to win the combat not merely extend it.

How are you spending 4 faith points per player turn? And as I have a Sister's army, I'm fully aware of the Martyrdom special rule, but in practice it doesn't work out how you seem to think it does.

What math are you even talking about? The .55 wounds? Because if you check my second post in this thread, you'll see I already worked that out and guess what? The Canoness still loses in the long run.


And frankly, when you describe spending 2 faith points per player turn as "paltry", it really diminishes your argument in my eyes because they really are, in practice, a limited and valuable commodity.

Streamdragon
Ypou said: the canonness isn't the only unit capable of tarpitting a 'Thirster for a fraction of the cost, after all.
thats true. She may be the only flying tarpit.... can't think of a parallel off the top of my head but that's a good point.

you said: And you can go ahead and say that "well, she might hold it up for 4 or 5 turns", but the math doesn't really have your back on this one. Keep in mind also that the math swings the 'Thirsters way if he gets the charge (and thus the extra attack). Remember, my math was ideal circumstances for the Witchhunter and ignored the Ld tests, and she still lost in the long run. (And by long run I mean 1-2 player turns).
ummmm.... I think the math supports my revised statement that they are comparable, but not, as you said, my original statement that she will whip the crap out of a blood thirster. Since I conceeded that point I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. your math definitely does show that they are comparable; if she charges there's a 13/100 difference in the number of wounds they are likely to inflict on each other. That's being comparable. If the blood thirster charges and you add the leadership tests then yes that does favor the blood thirster. If you want to get the most accurate possible picture of the combat there are two other things missing:
1. she has hand of the emperor or whatever
2. you can't multiply out the wounds like you were doing. for instance I have 4 attacks each one has a 0.25 chance of wounding therefor I have a 100% chance of wounding. It doesn't work like that. You never have a 100% chance of wounding.

you said: Adding another 120 points worth of Sisters accomplishes little if anything. It actually makes things harder for the sisters in the end. 120 points gets you another 10 sisters with a Veteran to make them faithful.
or it gets you another canonness, or pretty close. remember we're assuming a naked thirster. give him unholy strength collar of khorne or even deathstrike and it's easily 2 sisters. so if you want to see who'se getting the better deal in the thirster vs. sisters fight go ahead and multiply everything you get for the canonness by 2. But yes another squad of sisters won't make a difference for that particular fight; but 3 flamers + 7 rapid firing bolters will most definitely make a difference in the battle as a whole, since demons have alot of units that are susceptible to flame thrower attacks.


you said: 2++ saves are not a panacea making a character unkillable. I can't begin to detail how many times I've seen a Shadow Field (2+ Inv. until first failure) shut down on the first shot. I have never once seen one last an entire battle.
they're pretty close. the way you deal with a DE archon or a canonness is the same; you jump them with a full squad of taccies and beat the crap out of them, by forcing so many saves they can't cope. My point here is not that a canoness is unkillabke. My point is that she's a much better bargain than is available to other players for their HQ.

you said: Anyone claiming Acts of Faith are truly game-changing has probably never actually fielded sisters. I'm not saying that to be accusative, mind you, they just look better on paper than they actually end up being.
well I can't speak to your experience. I've played good players and bad ones and I can tell you that you do need to make intelligent decisions about army comp and in-game play to make faith powers work. A bad sisters player has no chance at all against any army that I field. None. But if you haven't seen first hand how abusive this stuff is in the hands of a strong opponent then I guess I can't really communicate it. Melissa and some others complain that powers are very limited in their use, and that's really alot of nonsense. The only time you can't use them is when you don't really need to anyway. I've witnessed the bloodthirster vs canonness combat personally many times that's why I brought it up. The canonness has indeed won the majority of the time, but for the sake of the conversation I've agreed to go by the math, since that's all that I can prove. What that math shows is that they are indeed comparable, and that the sister does indeed cost a fraction of what the blood thirster does.


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streamdragon wrote:Um, you do realize my math shows the wounds dealt out by the model, right? Not wounds taken?

yes stream dragon. I realize that. What I don't understand is why you don't see the same thing there that I do. They are

comparable

right? you see that right?
RIGHT????

streamdragon wrote: A 30 man ork squad with nob comes it at 190 points. Still less than the 250 cost of the 'Thirster, but will hold it up considerably longer. Hell, a 20 man ork squad with nob comes it at the Canoness's 130 points and would slaughter her mercilessly. Doesn't mean either is overpowered or underpowered. GW has stated numerous times that comparing the points value of a single unit to the points value of another single unit is meaningless. They have to be looked at in the context of the army.

Disagree. The orks will take no retreat wounds. The Boyz drop faster than you think. Something like 5 per combat phase, depending on who charges who.
The points cost comparison is indeed meaningful. GW just cant be bothered to maintain play balance.

streamdragon wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
your math reflexts 2 faith points per player turn. mine reflects 4. remember you get faith points back. If you start with 10 and take 50% casualties you have 15 to spend. spending 4 to kill a bloodthirster isn't an issue, although her cost is really better spent tying it up, since the sister player is still neutralizing a much larger target with a smaller one at a paltry cost at faith points. my math reflexts a caononess who wants to win the combat not merely extend it.

How are you spending 4 faith points per player turn? And as I have a Sister's army, I'm fully aware of the Martyrdom special rule, but in practice it doesn't work out how you seem to think it does.

What math are you even talking about? The .55 wounds? Because if you check my second post in this thread, you'll see I already worked that out and guess what? The Canoness still loses in the long run.


And frankly, when you describe spending 2 faith points per player turn as "paltry", it really diminishes your argument in my eyes because they really are, in practice, a limited and valuable commodity.

sorry 4 faith points per game turn.
not sure I understand your 2nd point. What aspect of the martyrdom rule do you think I misunderstand?
if you're running out of faith take more faithful units. they're cheap. and they're troops.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
I think it makes the sister with an eviscerator str 8. how do you think it works out?
if you're running out of faith take more faithful units. they're cheap. and they're troops.
AF

Sure they are troops but I think we have established that they are not cheap. Its almost 125 points for a single faith point for just a squad and the Veteran and no special weapons or transport. Sister squads must come in 10 girl units. Actually the cheaper option if we are just looking at Faith points is taking a squad of Celestians which is ~60 points per squad of 5 and no kit and they are all Faithful. So for about 200 points you can get 3 faith points, but those units aren't doing anything for the army at that point except contributing their faith points just like Sisters with no gear and transport. At least not for the first 2 turns since they would really have to move to get closer and then their shooting is 12". My point is that the army doesn't run on Faitha lone. Faith supplements the army and makes it work better.

Its just not generally worth it to make the Canoness go the distance against the Bloodthirster becuase the rest of your army suffers. Normally I can't spend 4 faith points on 1 assault. Thats almost half my starting faith at 2000 points (I'm usually at 10 or 11 depending on my army design). Generally speaking if your troops are constantly martyring themselves for more Faith points you are losing already. Personally I'd shower the Bloodthirster with 1, 2, or 3d6 STR 8 AP1 rockets from my Exorcists depending on what else I am facing. Much more effective by the numbers and less costly in army resources.

See if I spend 4 on a combat and get 4 faith points by martyring I've probably lost 3 or 4 squads. Thats bad.

Assuming you take 75% casualties over the course of the game and you start with 10 faith points (2 per canonness, 6 for various siter squads) you will have 15 or 16 to spend over the course of the game (if I remember the martyrdom rule right - dont have the book on me.) If you say 15 then you're spending less than 1/3 of your total faith alotment. And yes like you say you can just blast it with the exorcist so you really don't need to.

I think that way too much has been made of the blood thirster thing. I was making a larger point here: sisters pay less for units that do more than just about anyone else's basic troop, certainly more than anyone else's basic hq at 130-something points. Don't get me wrong - I'll defend what I said about the thirster because I think I'm right. But really there's more to the discussion than that 1 combat.

Somebody will say "but you have to buy a 50 point rhino so sisters come out to be the same as tacticals" I'm not ignoring that point - I've just already addressed it. Like 3 times. I'm not going to type it out again to save people the effort of scrolling up.
AF

As a Witch Hunter player I don't think they are broken at all. Especially not the foot list shown in the first post which does not use Veteran Superiors with Books of St. Lucius to be stubborn on a 9 or have have Rhinos for mobility for taking objectives.

Exorcists are good but fickle with D6 missles can be awesome if you roll a 6 but not so good if you roll a 1. Running them in multiples does get good with the law of averages. However Exorcists are the Witch hunters only source of ranged anti tank unless you want to ally Imperial Guard for Chimeras and auto cannons.

Sisters do get cheap power armored infantry but they are strength 3 and toughness 3 so they end up losing assaults and can be torrent of fired down.

The list popularized by Stjohn here is the immolator spam list and that is a really tough list going first since everything moves 12 and smokes and then is in your face turn 2 but at the end of the day you have a lot of av11 vehicles and then small 5 man/sister squads with 2 meltas inside and give up a ton of kill points and not going first you just got shot up.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
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streamdragon wrote:Um, you do realize my math shows the wounds dealt out by the model, right? Not wounds taken?

yes stream dragon. I realize that. What I don't understand is why you don't see the same thing there that I do. They are

comparable

right? you see that right?
RIGHT????

AF

How is dying after Two player turns max comparable? The Canoness stands zero chance at beating the Bloodthirster toe to toe UNLESS you can roll like a god. But I could say the same about a Gretchin versus Marneus Calgar. How in your warped mind does staying alive 1-2 turns = Comparable? Your arguement has no merit here, the Canoness is not over powered! What is so difficult to understand about that?
BTW, if you give the Canoness a Jetpack, that adds more points cost.

Let me remind you guys that necromunda heavies carry heavy bolters, plasma cannons and so forth without power armour.

Gack, a SOB is EASY to imagine carrying heavy flamers/Multi-Meltas.

Emperors Faithful wrote:How is dying after Two player turns max comparable? The Canoness stands zero chance at beating the Bloodthirster toe to toe UNLESS you can roll like a god. But I could say the same about a Gretchin versus Marneus Calgar. How in your warped mind does staying alive 1-2 turns = Comparable? Your arguement has no merit here, the Canoness is not over powered! What is so difficult to understand about that?
BTW, if you give the Canoness a Jetpack, that adds more points cost.

See, you just made his point for him!

A grot can kill Calgar if Calgar rolls constant ones and the grot rolls nothing but sixes!

Grots and Calgar are comparable! Duh!

/sarcasm

well emperors faithful I dont really understand why you think she'll die after two player turns max. can you explain your reasoning instead of just asserting it carte blanche?
AF

Emperors Faithful wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
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streamdragon wrote:Um, you do realize my math shows the wounds dealt out by the model, right? Not wounds taken?

yes stream dragon. I realize that. What I don't understand is why you don't see the same thing there that I do. They are

comparable

right? you see that right?
RIGHT????

AF

How is dying after Two player turns max comparable? The Canoness stands zero chance at beating the Bloodthirster toe to toe UNLESS you can roll like a god. But I could say the same about a Gretchin versus Marneus Calgar. How in your warped mind does staying alive 1-2 turns = Comparable? Your arguement has no merit here, the Canoness is not over powered! What is so difficult to understand about that?
BTW, if you give the Canoness a Jetpack, that adds more points cost.

Modquisition on. This thread has received multiple reports. Some persons have already been warned.
This is a public warning. From this post forward further posts insulting other posters directly or via slant will be viewed extremely harshly.
As an example the above slight " in your warped mind" if posted after this warning would result in a FIVE DAY SUSPENSION.

Posters on this thread have been warned.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well emperors faithful I dont really understand why you think she'll die after two player turns max. can you explain your reasoning instead of just asserting it carte blanche?

Sisters' first round: Canoness charges. Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness goes, dealing 0.55 wounds.
Total so far: 0.55 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 0.46 wounds on the Canoness.
Daemons' first round: Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness goes, dealing 0.416 wounds.
Total so far: 0.966 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 0.92 wounds on the Canoness.
Sisters' second round: Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness goes, dealing 0.416 wounds.
Total so far: 1.382 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 1.38 wounds on the Canoness.
Daemons' second round: Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness goes, dealing 0.416 wounds.
Total so far: 1.798 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 1.84 wounds on the Canoness.
Sisters' third round: Bloodthirster goes first, dealing 0.46 wounds. Canoness dies.
Total so far: 1.798 wounds on the Bloodthirster, 2.3 wounds on the Canoness.

Therefore, the Canoness will probably only tie the Bloodthirster up for two Daemon turns, and cause 1-2 wounds out of four before dying.

/thread

yeah Alex the math doesn't work that way. I see this all the time in math hammer discussions. "I have 4 attacks and each has a 1/4 chance of wounding so 4 x 1/4 = 1 I'll definitely get a wound." No that's not true. You have four 25% chances of getting a wound, you do *not* have a 100% chance of getting 1 wound. Even if you had 1000 attacks with a 1/4 chance of wounding you still would not have a 100% chance of wounding even once.

Based on what you've told me that's the reasoning behind the statement "2 player turns and the sister is dead." That's mathematically invalid.
AF

4 25% chances of a wound:

4 * .25 = 1.

Statistically, they're correct, they'll get, on average, one wound.

The keyword they're leaving out is the third to last and fourth to last words in that last sentence.

"On average."

SaintHazard wrote:4 25% chances of a wound:

4 * .25 = 1.

Statistically, they're correct, they'll get, on average, one wound.

The keyword they're leaving out is the third to last and fourth to last words in that last sentence.

"On average."

True, but its just not worth the 8 to 10 faith points to go 4 to 5 rounds of assault with a Bloodthirster just to have a narrow margin of winning the fight if even that.

andrewm9 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:4 25% chances of a wound:

4 * .25 = 1.

Statistically, they're correct, they'll get, on average, one wound.

The keyword they're leaving out is the third to last and fourth to last words in that last sentence.

"On average."

True, but its just not worth the 8 to 10 faith points to go 4 to 5 rounds of assault with a Bloodthirster just to have a narrow margin of winning the fight if even that.

Might be worth it to tie up the BT.

Frazzled wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:4 25% chances of a wound:

4 * .25 = 1.

Statistically, they're correct, they'll get, on average, one wound.

The keyword they're leaving out is the third to last and fourth to last words in that last sentence.

"On average."

True, but its just not worth the 8 to 10 faith points to go 4 to 5 rounds of assault with a Bloodthirster just to have a narrow margin of winning the fight if even that.

Might be worth it to tie up the BT.

With a Canoness?

That's a damned expensive snare...

BT's are also quite expensive and can be difficult to kill.

All you really need to tie up the thirster is armor of faith; 1 faith point per player turn. If she does that it's still awesome; blood thirsters arent cheap canonnesses are (for an hq)
AF

Draggoon wrote:IG can carry H. Flamers. But only at a company level.

And every single Veteran squad.


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Frazzled wrote:Might be worth it to tie up the BT.

No it won't.

There are other, more important things you want to spend your Faith Points on than a single model which can be shot at by Exorcists. (click here for an explanation of this from a more general standpoint)

either way sisters have the edge.

If the canonness has better things to do than to tie up a unit that costs twice as much as it does then how, again, are sisters a fair and balanced army.......?

The blood thirster vs canonness comparison is just a single illustration. Consider that thousand sons have a slightly better stat line and a very similar set of capabilities, but are slightly more than twice as expensive per squad as a unit of sisters. Or that a space marine tri las predator has about the same capabilities as an exorcist and costs 30 points more, and cannot move and fire to full effect. Or that to give a marine a 3++ save, which again sisters get for free, the SM player pays 15 points *per model* That's just off the top of my head. Many more examples are possible.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:either way sisters have the edge.

Sisters have AN edge.

Just like very other army. But you still have yet to prove all of your theorycrafting is anything more than just that.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:either way sisters have the edge.

If the canonness has better things to do than to tie up a unit that costs twice as much as it does then how, again, are sisters a fair and balanced army.......?

so by your logic a unit of gaunts being able to tie up a squad of TH/SS terminators makes 'nids unbalanced?

Inquisitor Hector Rex. In Imperial armour seven he takes on a bloodthirster and wins.

Next.

Technically Hector Rex fought an Apoc verson of a bloodthirster.

Fighting Bloodthirsters in single-handed combat must be all the rage nowadays in the imperium. I blame Sanguinus for starting the fad.

Harrab TH/SS terminators will rip their way through the gaunts. But no that wouldnt show that gaunts were broken. But if you had 4 or 5 more examples of ways in which tyranids were stronger than space marines and could list them all side by side, then the accumulation might.

That list for sisters is:
1. the exorcist tank, which is better than most of its equivalents in other armies and costs less.
2. the canonness, who is stronger than 95% of the HQs in the game and costs less.
3. sisters whose capabilities are out of all proportion to what they cost.
4. army-wide faith powers which cost nothing and make even basic spud sisters superior to most equivalent troop choices.

If you could put together a similar list for any other army in the game (guard say) then yes you could make a case that army was unbalanced. I'd hear you out anyway.
AF

1: No it's not, and it's not. S8 is a much bigger limitation than you realize. Can it, technically speaking, destroy AV14? Yes. And technically speaking a single grot can kill three khornate berzerkers. Furthermore, it only has a single weapon (thus it is heavily effected by any weapon destroyed result), and its shots are random and therefor unreliable. Average is just that-- not a surefire thing. You will find that in many games you roll ones to shoot far more often than feels appropriate, and sixes far less often.

As for its cost, I have already disputed that. with the AC/LC predator example which costs less (with Blood Angels, it costs the same and is a Fast Tank to boot) but does more consistent damage and can harm stronger armor (IE, it can actually penetrate AV14). Four shots, two of which are S7 and two of which are S9, is overall better than an average 3 S8 shots. A SoulGrinder is similarly priced but far more adaptable; a Blood Angels vindicator is ten points more but has a better weapon and is Fast to boot while the standard Vindicator is cheaper; a dakka dread with two TL autocannons is much more reliable against lighter armor, and isn't as vulnerable to assault or side armor shots; an Ironclad Dreadnought is even deadlier, and more survivable; a Battlewagon is cheaper with better armor and it's a transport for twenty boyz which can assault after disembarking. There are plenty of vehicles which are just as useful/deadly/powerful as the Exorcist for a similar cost.

2: You have continually failed to prove this for eight pages. The Canoness needs only fail two 2++ saves to die against an S6 or better attack. This is not an unlikely situation to happen.

3: You have continually failed to prove this for eight pages as well. Sisters are actually OVER priced compared to tacticals, grey hunters, and chaos space marines.

4: Already disproved. Sisters pay for Faith Points via veteran sister superiors-- and the squads which do not have to buy a VSS are non-scoring AND more expensive.



You do not know the army. Your theorycrafting is still, regardless of how much you repeat yourself, just that-- theorycrafting. It is based off of a misconception of the strength of the army, a misunderstanding of the rules, and a lack of real-world knowledge on how Sisters play. And it is entirely inavlid.

Melissia wrote:You do not know the army. Your theorycrafting is still, regardless of how much you repeat yourself, just that-- theorycrafting. It is based off of a misconception of the strength of the army, a misunderstanding of the rules, and a lack of real-world knowledge on how Sisters play. And it is entirely inavlid.

This is so true.

Basically while the Canoness is holding of the Thirster the rest of the army is going to get pounded by the Daemons.


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Doctadeth wrote:Inquisitor Hector Rex. In Imperial armour seven he takes on a bloodthirster and wins.

Next.

Yeah in a story. On the field if Rex gets lucky and actually injures the Blood Thirster he might kill it with his Force Weapon unless the Thirster uses his cheap 2+ save to avoid losing all of his wounds. Rex is also more points than a Blood Thirster and carries Daemon Killing Gear. Its a big difference.

Melissa

1. just do the math. you'll see that I'm right. ap1 makes up for str 8.
2. yes. you have disputed it. and I have answered the point about sisters being lower costed. at least 3 times. just scroll up and look for my responses I'm not going to write it all out again.
3. against a model that only has 5 attacks to begin with it is not as unlikely as you believe. Even going on the (mistaken) math that says 1/6 x6 = 1 so I'll definitely get 1 wound, the blood thirster is not certain to inflict even 1 wound assuming all of its attacks hit and all of its hits wound. You can focus on the blood thirster example if you want. I'm right about it. I'm also right about the tri las predator, thousand sons, and storm shields examples as well, which illustrate the same ponit of sisters getting something for free or at greatly reduced price that other armies, space marines in particular, pay more for.
4. whatever.
5. I dont own a copy of this codex. If the sister superior is optional then thats great, you have the option to not take it. If it is not then you're in the same boat with marines, who also pay for their sergeants, so again no special negative to sisters there.
6. whatever.

Now even I am tired of this thread and this will be the last thing I'll post here.
AF

"Like, whatever, man. I'm right and you're wrong because I say so.

Now I'm going to leave before you can argue against that so that I'll feel like I won."

On S8 AP1 vs S9 AP2: Okay, I'll do the math, just for you.

S8 AP1 vs AV14:
Roll 3+ to hit. (66.6~67% of shots hit)
Roll 6 to glance (16.6~67% of shots that hit glance-- a total of 11.116~67% of shots glance)
Roll 6 for wreck (16.6~67% of shots that glance wreck-- a total of ~1.85% of all shots wreck)
Total percentage: 1.8% of all S8 AP1 shots destroy AV14
S8 AP1 vs AV13
Roll 3+ to hit. (66.6~67% of shots hit)
Roll 6 to penetrate (16.6~67% of all shots that hit penetrate-- a total of 11.11% of all shots penetrate)
Roll 4+ to destroy (50% of all shots that penetrate destroy-- a total of 5.55% destroying)
Roll 5 to glance (16.6~67% of shots that hit glance-- a total of 11.116~67% of shots glance)
Roll 6 for wreck (16.6~67% of shots that glance wreck-- a total of ~1.85% of all shots wreck)
Total percentage: 7.4% of all shots destroy AV13

S9 AP2 vs AV14:
Roll 3+ to hit. (66.6~67% of shots hit)
Roll 6 to penetrate (16.6~67% of all shots that hit penetrate-- a total of 11.116~67% of all shots penetrate)
Roll 5+ to destroy (33.3~34% of all shots that penetrate destroy-- a total of 3.705% of all shots destroy)
Total percentage: 3.7% of all Lascannon shots destroy AV14
S9 AP2 vs AV13:
Roll 3+ to hit. (66.6~67% of shots hit)
Roll 5+ to penetrate (33.3~34% of all shots that hit penetrate-- 22.22% of all shots penetrate)
Roll 5+ to destroy (33.3~34% of all shots that penetrate destroy-- 7.41% of all shots destroy)
Total percentage: 7.4% of all Lascannon shots destroy AV13
I did the math.

Even though both have a low chance of destroying per shot, the S9 AP2 has a better chance of destroying AV14 than the S8 AP1. Against AV13, they have roughly the same chance of destroying (my math had S9 AP2 as 0.01% higher, but that was probably due to rounding).

You are wrong.


On the cost of Sisters: Your answer was nonsensical and flies in the face of reality. You basically just proclaimed "acts of faith!" as if that somehow explained everything as some weird sort of panacea. You are not talking to some random newbie who has never played the army before, nor someone inexperienced in debate. So do not attempt to use such arguments.


On the Canoness: So? Even just looking at mathhammer-- which itself proves little-- it still does not prove you right.


On your fifth point: That you did not own a codex and had no experience in building and using a Sisters army is obvious (that you have at least a vague grasp on the rules is good, but having the codex in front of you is far more valuable than simply facing off against the army). Apparently you don't own the Space Marine codex either, however. Guess what, AF? Tactical Marines get their veteran sergeant for free. Isn't life fun? They also get ATSKNF for free, their flamer for free, a heavy weapon for free, bolt pistols for free, frag grenades for free, krak grenades for free, combat tactics for free, combat squadding for free, and MEQ for free, too! Oh, wait, you're going to say they pay for all of that with their points costs?

Then drop the double standard. I have no respect for such a logically fallacious argument.


On your closing statement: Come back when you have actually played a Sisters army against a competent opponent, while following the rules strictly by the book. Preferably many times, against a variety of different well-built armies and skilled opponents. A person who just looks at a codex (or hell, doesn't even do that much) and screams "OMGWTFBROKEN"-- what you have been doing this entire thread-- does not make rational, factual arguments.

When people first saw deep striking Land Raiders, they screamed OP too. I didn't. Because I had the foresight to realize that deep striking Land Raiders were melta fodder. Now such a viewpoint is accepted as common knowledge. When people saw the Doom of Malan'tai, they screamed broken then too. I foresaw GW's FAQ, and how to deal with the Doom, and didn't cry "broken" with the rest of the crowd. They're no longer seen as broken by the masses, proving me right once again . And so on and so forth down the entire history of fifth edition, oh, and let's not forget the arguments had in fourth edition shall we?

This may sound arrogant, but rather than viewing it that way, try looking at it this way-- instead of complaining about a faction being "too powerful", go find a way to counter it. It's what I've been doing with my third edition codex for almost ten years. You can learn to do it, too.



edit: Geebuz that's a lot of text. And typos and the need to reorganize it a few times. Mutter mutter stupid housemates using sulphuric acid to unclog the drain so now my eyes are sore from the fumes and I have a nasty headache.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Harrab TH/SS terminators will rip their way through the gaunts. But no that wouldnt show that gaunts were broken. But if you had 4 or 5 more examples of ways in which tyranids were stronger than space marines and could list them all side by side, then the accumulation might.

And the Bloodthirster will rip through the cannoness, who would have also burned through almost her army's faith points.My example was in line with yours yet you still think the cannoness is some demi-goddess who will waltz through the battlefeild killing everything in her path. Are we talking about the same army?

@andrew - Actually, quite the opposite. If you actually take a look at the rules, rex is quite a strong opponent Vs vanilla bloodthirsters. I've taken down 3 in a game with him.

@Candy.man - Yes it was in a campaign based storyline, and yes it was a bloodthirster with special rules and even HIGHER stats. which still proves my point.

Cambak wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:wtf? He was lying about a lot of things then. He said they were 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 3+....

Always ask to see their list, and ask to see their codex, and if they refuse, ask the store owner to borrow a copy to check on something.

better yet, do not play against people that wont show you their codex.

Melissia wrote:
When people saw the Doom of Malan'tai, they screamed broken then too. I foresaw GW's FAQ, and how to deal with the Doom, and didn't cry "broken" with the rest of the crowd.

Er...I ID'ed him once with a Lucky Lascannon. Is there some sort of tactic people can use against it other than Mech armies? I play guard, and a creature that drops down into my army and forces leadership tests galore is a pain.

Lord Harrab wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Harrab TH/SS terminators will rip their way through the gaunts. But no that wouldnt show that gaunts were broken. But if you had 4 or 5 more examples of ways in which tyranids were stronger than space marines and could list them all side by side, then the accumulation might.

And the Bloodthirster will rip through the cannoness, who would have also burned through almost her army's faith points.My example was in line with yours yet you still think the cannoness is some demi-goddess who will waltz through the battlefeild killing everything in her path. Are we talking about the same army?

I wish. Canoness would rock my socks.

Generally speaking the best tactic to use against the DoM is "shoot him".

... what? It works. Mind you, my Sisters don't mind the leadership tests THAT much, but it is a pain for my Guard. But still, I've always been a fan of the complex tactic of "rolling a lot of dice so the opponent has a chance of failing a lot of saves".

Melissia wrote:Generally speaking the best tactic to use against the DoM is "shoot him".

... what? It works. Mind you, my Sisters don't mind the leadership tests THAT much, but it is a pain for my Guard. But still, I've always been a fan of the complex tactic of "rolling a lot of dice so the opponent has a chance of failing a lot of saves".

Also known as MORE DAKKA!!!

I've yet to encounter any model or group of models that doesn't cease to be a problem if you throw enough shots/attacks at it.

Melissa your math tutorial is off a bit. You forgot to factor in the glance/destroy factor for the S9 weapon. This would add another 1.85% to the destroy total (the glance factor is the same as before since the Strength factor doesn't enter into the formula). So S9 v AV 13 =~9.2% destroying shots.

I don't think this will convince him that Sisters aren't underpriced. He'll just move onto some other outrageous example.

I had a bunch of other stuff, but Melissia basically covered it all. I will say that I've seen a regular 30 man ork squad (with shootas, mind you) take out Lysander and 5 TH/SS terminators, so if you think the Terms will slaughter a group of Hormagaunts, something is very wrong.

Melissia wrote:Generally speaking the best tactic to use against the DoM is "shoot him".

... what? It works. Mind you, my Sisters don't mind the leadership tests THAT much, but it is a pain for my Guard. But still, I've always been a fan of the complex tactic of "rolling a lot of dice so the opponent has a chance of failing a lot of saves".

I've found this works for just about everything, myself.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:Melissa your math tutorial is off a bit. You forgot to factor in the glance/destroy factor for the S9 weapon. This would add another 1.85% to the destroy total (the glance factor is the same as before since the Strength factor doesn't enter into the formula). So S9 v AV 13 =~9.2% destroying shots.

I don't think this will convince him that Sisters aren't underpriced. He'll just move onto some other outrageous example.

With -2 to your damage roll on a glancing hit, you're not going to destroy anything that has weapons / is mobile. I think they were going for 1 shot 1 kill, so the lascannon is still only getting anywhere on a penetrating hit. The Exorcist can do it because the -2 for glancing is reduced to -1 from the AP1, so it can still destroy on a roll of a 6.\

I do enjoy fielding exorcists, whereas I don't own a single predator for my Space Wolves or Salamanders. In a strange way I find the random number of shots fun, but then again, that's why I started up an Ork army and field Skaven in fantasy!

Melissia wrote:

Draggoon wrote:IG can carry H. Flamers. But only at a company level.

And every single Veteran squad.


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Frazzled wrote:Might be worth it to tie up the BT.

No it won't.

There are other, more important things you want to spend your Faith Points on than a single model which can be shot at by Exorcists. (click here for an explanation of this from a more general standpoint)

1. Maybe the exorcists are shooting at the other greater demons, bloodcrushers, and soulgrinders which are also in their midst?
2. Maybe the exorcists are already gone from said greater demons, heralds, bloodcrushers, and soulgrinders?

streamdragon wrote:I had a bunch of other stuff, but Melissia basically covered it all. I will say that I've seen a regular 30 man ork squad (with shootas, mind you) take out Lysander and 5 TH/SS terminators, so if you think the Terms will slaughter a group of Hormagaunts, something is very wrong.

Melissia wrote:Generally speaking the best tactic to use against the DoM is "shoot him".

... what? It works. Mind you, my Sisters don't mind the leadership tests THAT much, but it is a pain for my Guard. But still, I've always been a fan of the complex tactic of "rolling a lot of dice so the opponent has a chance of failing a lot of saves".

I've found this works for just about everything, myself.

MOAR DAKKA is the solution? Somebody get this thread into the Tactics forum STAT.

MORE DAKKA is always an appropriate solution.

Frazzled wrote:1. Maybe the exorcists are shooting at the other greater demons, bloodcrushers, and soulgrinders which are also in their midst?
2. Maybe the exorcists are already gone from said greater demons, heralds, bloodcrushers, and soulgrinders?

If there are three Exorcists, and you use them well-- remember, only one heavy weapon, so they can move 6", turn and fire-- I would think they can survive long enough to kill a couple monstrous creatures. The Soul Grinders present a bit of a problem of course, since they're immune to crew shaken/crew stunned while the Exorcists aren't.

SaintHazard wrote:"Like, whatever, man. I'm right and you're wrong because I say so.

Now I'm going to leave before you can argue against that so that I'll feel like I won."

1+

Only time I will ever aim an Exorcist at AV14 is if I rolled a 6 for missiles and Im feeling lucky. Otherwise you're better off shooting just about anything else.

The tank itself is a psychological weapon. The first time you roll a few 4-6 shots on the missiles, anyone on the receiving end will start fearing them and that opens room for mistakes on their part. Once they realize however that any single glancing hits on them has a 5 out of 6 chances of shutting them down for at least a turn, they lose that impact.

On the predator comparison, it takes 3 weapons destroyed to shut one down. The first weapon destroyed result on an exorcist will force you to look for something to tank shock. Just down all three Exorcist and you killed all the long range support sisters have. Most other armies will still have support through their elites or even troop choices.

A canoness should also never be in melee with a monstrous creature. If she is, it's because something went wrong and that creature didnt die before getting to your lines. She exists to support your troops, coming to help when they get tied up in assault or posing a threat to the enemies heavy support. I've even once used a jump canoness to join a unit of 3 sisters (VSS dead) that were falling back so that I could regroup with light of the emperor and subsequently capture a nearby objective.

If a Bloodthirsters gets close enough to your troops that you have to send in a canoness, no amount of assault support will get her out of there alive considering your opponent probably already has support of his own coming and that would be playing into his game. Move your troops away or in position and let her die in his assault phase so you can shoot it down after.

I also do not understand the concept of "faith points being free". I've read both the Space Marine and Imperial Guard codex and neither of them have point costs for orders and ATSKNF.

It could be argued that IG pay for them by having to buy a Company Command or Platoon Command, but rare are going to be the guard players that dont use at least the first one for one of their HQ choices.

For sisters, you could say that the canoness brings in 2 free faith points. Then it can get expensive. Every VSS with a Book is technically 30 points and contributes 1 faith point. If you sacrifice her to get a faith back, you'd better make sure that faith point will be worth a lot of points since you've gutted your squad's efficiency to a fraction of it's original level.

Voldrak wrote:Only time I will ever aim an Exorcist at AV14 is if I rolled a 6 for missiles and Im feeling lucky.

Remember though, you have to pick your target before you roll the number of missles.

You are right. Im not sure how I managed to confound that "after" with a "before" on my last read through (thought I'd been playing them wrong before and was happy about that new found knowledge... sigh).

That only serves to prove how even more unreliable this tank is compared to it's counter parts in other armies.

Samus_aran115 wrote:My list was..

Kharne
Lightning Claws termies (only 200 points, I thought, what the heck.)
Dreadnought with plasma cannon(ended up trying to dodge exorcist missiles the entire game and only killed a couple sisters)
10 marines, 2 plasma, rhino
10 marines, 2 melta, rhino
5 raptors with 2 flamers

I thought it was an okay list. I tried out some things I don't usually do, like dreads and raptors, kharne and lightning terminators....Owait, that's my whole army!

Its not an okay list. Its rather crap. The sister list was meh aswell to be honest. Thats a very tame sisters army. If you could play the game I could see your list beating it soundly.

Though raptors are pants with 2 meltaguns nevermind 2 flamers. Dreadnoughts for chaos ain't remarkable. Defilers are more rewarding though if you go down that route possesed vindicators are even better.

Chaos Terminators ain't got anything on loyalist storm sheild bambots so I'd swap them for obliterators which are exceptionally flexable and unique to the chaos army. Though if you must take a squad get them a land raider. They need to be transported in otherwise they get killed.

Your core is solid though. I have no problem with it.

Your list didn't beat the sisters cause its a piss poor version of a loyalist force. Get some of the hard chaos marine only units and you give yourself a reason not to use the blue book.

You should see the things you can do with the chaos list. You wouldn't complain about anything else once you first play a twin lash army. Frustrating as hell.

This was just a friendly game, and I wanted to try out some new things (everything that isn't mandatory is sort of like that).

Those termies were pretty suck, as were the raptors. If I want plasma cannons, I'll take oblits, not a dreadnought next time The core of my list did it's job well, but that was it!

Don't rule out twin linked flamers against sisters. They will only use faith points to bulk up their invuns so don't bother taking it away.

I almost never use Spirit of the Martyr if I'm playing right. I only use it if I make a mistake and have to use it.

Ooh, my opponent is apparently keeping tabs on this thread. Which is irritating in itself. I got his list right, except for one thing.

Dunno what it was, so he's out of luck.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Ooh, my opponent is apparently keeping tabs on this thread. Which is irritating in itself. I got his list right, except for one thing.

Dunno what it was, so he's out of luck.

not a bad thing... now he knows you can't be cheated

Melissia wrote:I almost never use Spirit of the Martyr if I'm playing right. I only use it if I make a mistake and have to use it.

I forget, is that the Invo one? That was in my Top 3 "To Use" list. If it looked like a severe round of shooting was about to occur (or a PW squad in Assualting rang) the Act was indeispensible. It infuriated my opponents to no end.

I must agree with Emperors Faithful, a 2+ inv is insanely useful, if the price is right. It would ruin my space marines tactics. a 2+ invulnerable even laughs at mass bolter fire, and even more so at plasma and power weapons. The day you kill 1 sister charging with 5 assault terminators is the day you forget everything you have ever said about women.

In response to the OP, I think battle sisters give us some of that good ol' 4th or lower ass kicking. Not many below-4th armies can beat 5th, but hell sisters are awesome.

If you're having to take a lot of 2+ invo's then you're not utilising the Canoness to her greatest effective. You only need to fail 3 times, AND she's not immune to instant death. It's more useful with small squads of Celestians (or left over Battle Sisters if needs be)

Sisters are a basic bare bones army. Unlike most 5th ed Armies there isn't a huge range of workable tactics available. They do have some, and those builds work well enough, but there isn't the diversity you experience with most other Armies.

Just a small point and tbh I agree with Mel on most of this but calling AF out on the Marines Sgt was incorrect, you pay 90 points for sgt+4 blokes and the 16 for each additional guy so how did you work out that marines get a sarge for free? Looks like 10 pts for +1A and +1LD to me.

On topic I personally think Sisters got a fantastic deal at the time and one that holds up even now, I would have said OP then (marine captains couldn't get any better than 4++ and they used to cost serious points for a tooled up one) but now it all helps to keep sisters in the game.

I do understand the point about sisters not paying for faith, having had a game a couple of months back with my UM's where my opponent agreed to see what would happen without faith, and they still gave a good account of themselves even then, given that was in dense terrain which favoured the WH but I still reckon they can hold their own without it. Better than DH anyway, though if you use the invun power in my shooting phase the purgation squad with psycannons will be looking your way

DEATH89 wrote:Just a small point and tbh I agree with Mel on most of this but calling AF out on the Marines Sgt was incorrect, you pay 90 points for sgt+4 blokes and the 16 for each additional guy so how did you work out that marines get a sarge for free? Looks like 10 pts for +1A and +1LD to me.

On topic I personally think Sisters got a fantastic deal at the time and one that holds up even now, I would have said OP then (marine captains couldn't get any better than 4++ and they used to cost serious points for a tooled up one) but now it all helps to keep sisters in the game.

I do understand the point about sisters not paying for faith, having had a game a couple of months back with my UM's where my opponent agreed to see what would happen without faith, and they still gave a good account of themselves even then, given that was in dense terrain which favoured the WH but I still reckon they can hold their own without it. Better than DH anyway, though if you use the invun power in my shooting phase the purgation squad with psycannons will be looking your way

Its "free" becaue its worked out in the squad cost. Sisters must pay for the upgrade so saying that sisters cost 11 points each is a little disingenous. Thats the point Mel was tryign to make. The minimum squad as squad size for Sisters is 10 as well. If you look at point cost for a SM Squad and a Sisters squad with upgrades and a Rhino its extremely close.

The game has changed dramatically in some directions. Space Marines have a readily available 3+ invuln save (which they pay for of course), but given a Marines other attributes it can be pretty effective. Sisters are still effective as well, but they have a lot of holes in their lineup in 5th edition which affects their competitiveness.

The bottom line, and I agree with Death here, is that it's still not free.

But otherwise M's points are solid.

...wasn't this conversation over a few days ago?

I thought it was over too

He realizes he was wrong, so we're having a rematch. But I'm playing IG EAT BATTLECANNON FEMANONS!