Hello my friends!

I found that GW has changed a lot over the years(it might only be moments for some of the vets here, I've only played this game for...not very long and I see the change of them)They used to have really nice staff members and a good system of introducing and teaching.Now they are rising the prices of everything, and with new players, they give them a brief demo game and start telling them "you should buy this".

Another issue is how they treat the vets...When 8th ed fantasy first came out, GW staff told every veteran in my LFGS to buy the book.Its like all they care is money, the old "gaming community" concept is breaking apart!Its like how Saruman abandoned the forest for his desires...

As a young gamer, I see the end of GW coming at them rapidly.They are dooming themselves, and if they dont do anything about it, they will start shrinking instead of expending.This, of course, is only my personal opinion.

What do you think?Will they change their attitude?Any thoughts from a different perspective?
Speak your mind

(I might have a lot of grammer mistakes in this thread, but I just want to make my point here)

YMMV. In my experience there are lots of great staffers as well. If you are in the Toronto region, I highly recommend GW Woodbridge.

I'm not so sure.

I see GW potentially entering an era of transformation in which they are testing the viability of mainstream mass market appeal:

Look at all the video game licenses in the works, movies, board games w/ FFG, etc.

I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

If they figure out a viable way to make mainstream bucks with regular toys, simplified wargames, video games, merchandising etc. Then us war gamers won't eve be needed anymore, and certainly not us whiny, nostalgic veteran gamers that are never satisfied anyways...

But less and less people are playing their games from my point of view...
And they are not getting enough recruits to replace the vets.

Oh yea there are nice staff members, but a lot of them are just TFG kinda people

CT GAMER wrote:I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

@CT: May I never live long enough to see the GW IP become so watered down and censored that it is deemed acceptable for afternoon viewing on Fox Kids.

Wings of Purity wrote:But less and less people are playing their games from my point of view...
And they are not getting enough recruits to replace the vets.

Oh yea there are nice staff members, but a lot of them are just TFG kinda people

Your missing my point. Right now they market to a specifc demographic/culture: wargamers and hobbiests.

I predict a switch to a new marketing strategy and change of focus in products that abandons reliance on solely wargamers in favor of everyday kids. Instead of miniatures for 40k and WHFB being the focus they will switch to licensing the use of their IP in more mainstream ventures: action figures and toys, lunch boxes, coloring books, t-shirts, board games, kidified versions of 40k/WHFB, etc. all associated with mainstream media ventures (movies, video games, etc.)

The marketing will switch to TV cartoons of their properties, mainstream video games, big budget hollywood movie franchise (animated or otherwise).

Us wargamers are gonna go the way of the dinosaur in favor of appealing to their new market: little johnny who wants all the toys, video games, etc., etc. from this cool new thing (40K or whatever) he sees on cartoon network or the movies or in video games, etc.

Gw is gonna undergo this metamorphosis, and I think we see signs of them testing the waters in this regard more and more with all the recent use of their IP in video games, board games by outside sources (FFG), the coming Ultras movie, etc., etc.


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keezus wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

@CT: May I never live long enough to see the GW IP become so watered down and censored that it is deemed acceptable for afternoon viewing on Fox Kids.

Get ready, it's coming. They are gone make millions through merchandising and licensing fees that mainstream companies are gonna pay to use their IP for movies, cartoons, toys, etc.

And if the numbers are good GW will do it and never look back...

Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

The only experiences I have had with GW employees have been positive.

I don't think that rudeness and horror are the norm in their establishments. That said, it is a business so we shouldn't be all shocked when they want our money...

Lots of people in the company. Someone having a bad experience with a couple of GW staffers doesn't mean they are all that way.

The same way my having a good time at The Warf Rat all weekend with about 50 of them doesn't mean they all party hard, and drink like fish, and are a fun bunch of guys and gals.

But I have more data points in my 'survey'.) So I think my veiwpoint is more likely.

Well what do you know, the plural of anecdote IS data.

CT GAMER wrote:

Wings of Purity wrote:But less and less people are playing their games from my point of view...
And they are not getting enough recruits to replace the vets.

Oh yea there are nice staff members, but a lot of them are just TFG kinda people

Your missing my point. Right now they market to a specifc demographic/culture: wargamers and hobbiests.

I predict a switch to a new marketing strategy and change of focus in products that abandons reliance on solely wargamers in favor of everyday kids. Instead of miniatures for 40k and WHFB being the focus they will switch to licensing the use of their IP in more mainstream ventures: action figures and toys, lunch boxes, coloring books, t-shirts, board games, kidified versions of 40k/WHFB, etc. all associated with mainstream media ventures (movies, video games, etc.)

The marketing will switch to TV cartoons of their properties, mainstream video games, big budget hollywood movie franchise (animated or otherwise).

Us wargamers are gonna go the way of the dinosaur in favor of appealing to their new market: little johnny who wants all the toys, video games, etc., etc. from this cool new thing (40K or whatever) he sees on cartoon network or the movies or in video games, etc.

Gw is gonna undergo this metamorphosis, and I think we see signs of them testing the waters in this regard more and more with all the recent use of their IP in video games, board games by outside sources (FFG), the coming Ultras movie, etc., etc.


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keezus wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

@CT: May I never live long enough to see the GW IP become so watered down and censored that it is deemed acceptable for afternoon viewing on Fox Kids.

Get ready, it's coming. They are gone make millions through merchandising and licensing fees that mainstream companies are gonna pay to use their IP for movies, cartoons, toys, etc.

And if the numbers are good GW will do it and never look back...

If they ever abandon the essence(wargaming part) of this thing, I will curse them with every living language and hope that they fail miserably in their attempt.

I've made it a habit of visiting a GW store on occasion during roadtrips, and all of my various experiences have been positive. If anything the employees are creepy-happy and all-too-happy to assist you.

Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

CT GAMER wrote: kidified versions of 40k/WHFB

Like 8th ed. Fantasy? All the changes I've seen just seem to scream "Kids can't guess ranges, let them roll some dice and shoot at whatever they want, that'll get them buying more stuff!"

Wings of Light wrote:As a young gamer, I see the end of GW coming at them rapidly.They are dooming themselves.

I wish this were true, not just for games workshop but for all companies who exploit their customers for profit. GW has always been expensive, but now it seems like they have realised that they can just charge silly amounts and people will still pay it.

Unfortunately that's the truth. Everywhere you go you see companies overcharging, offering bad service, poor customer support, rude staff, inferior products... All kinds of things that should rightfully hurt their business, and yet it doesn't. They are still raking in huge profits, so they couldn't care less. And since customers aren't organised enough to band together and demand more, they are just forced to put up with it.

I don't know if GWs business model is the most sensible one really. They actually have massive exposure, I've met a staggering number of people who have collected games workshop at one time or another but stopped, and they all say the same thing... "It's too expensive".

One thing that super markets proved is that when things are cheaper, people don't spend less, they buy more. And people will often spend more too when they feel they are getting a better deal.

I know I for one would probably buy all the codex books if they were half the price they are now. But there is no way I'm buying them all at £17 each. I've got one, which is the one for my army... the others I'm just going to beg, steal or borrow.

So their pushing the newest version of one of their core games is that a surprise? Its their new product you can't expect them to not try and sell it, they need to jusify why there have a store there for you to hang around it and if thats how they get the money is the door to keep them employeed so be it. Don't get upset at the GW employees doing exactly what they are paid to do.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say I don't view GW as that expensive in terms of hobbies. GW for the most part make fantastic models and they and their background fluff etc are arguably some of the best out there, what they do they do very well.

This is my major hobby, I view it as such, all hobbies when you get serious cost money no matter what it is. A new army I price up at around 2000pts (40k) went I play making lists generally costs me $700-900 AUD, a lot? That army is going to keep my busy for the better part of 2 year painting probably, I’m going to play a hundred games in that time if I get only one per week, not a hard goal.

Include all the extras that go with it double it? I’m looking at $1000 AUD per year for my major hobby, thats $20 a week, doesn’t sound too bad to me.

Talanis wrote:, thats $20 a week, doesn’t sound too bad to me.

So often I look people I know deep in the eyes and quietly ask 'Well, how much do you spend on drugs a week?' (Drugs includes ciggaretts and alcohol, not coffee for once )

Wings of Light wrote:I found that GW has changed a lot over the years(it might only be moments for some of the vets here, I've only played this game for...not very long and I see the change of them)They used to have really nice staff members and a good system of introducing and teaching.Now they are rising the prices of everything, and with new players, they give them a brief demo game and start telling them "you should buy this".

This hasn't been my experience. Plenty of times I've been trying to grab something and get out quickly, and I've been standing by the counter for a few minutes while the staff talk with kids. I think you might be taking your experiences in one or two stores and extending them out to GW as a whole, and that's a mistake. When you then extend that out to being evidence of the end of GW, well then you're really drawing a long bow.

SmackCakes wrote:I wish this were true, not just for games workshop but for all companies who exploit their customers for profit. GW has always been expensive, but now it seems like they have realised that they can just charge silly amounts and people will still pay it.

You can't exploit a customer by charging him a price he's willing to pay for a consumer good. Water? Yes. Toy models? No.

Unfortunately that's the truth. Everywhere you go you see companies overcharging, offering bad service, poor customer support, rude staff, inferior products... All kinds of things that should rightfully hurt their business, and yet it doesn't. They are still raking in huge profits, so they couldn't care less. And since customers aren't organised enough to band together and demand more, they are just forced to put up with it.

No, you aren't forced to put up with it. They're your dollars and there's a whole lot of miniature games out there, and a whole load of other hobbies besides. You're living at a point in time where there has never been so many choices for how you want to spend your consumer dollars. Complaining that the mean old company is charging more than you'd like to pay makes no sense.

One thing that super markets proved is that when things are cheaper, people don't spend less, they buy more. And people will often spend more too when they feel they are getting a better deal.

Not really, no. I need a kilo of rice, and I will buy a kilo of rice, whether it is two dollars or seven dollars. That is one of the basic truths of marginal utility, there is a point where price doesn't matter because I don't want any more rice.

Some of you know me by now, I try to sit on the straight thinking fence. I do fall off occasionally.

I don’t agree with some of the comments about GW being accused of raking in huge profits and keeping things expensive to shaft us, the customer.

GW last year made £7.5 million. Which, for a global company, is very poor by anyone’s standard. During the same period they had to loan £1.6 million just to keep the models going out. Do you really think that they will be making things cheaper for such a small income?

Just as an insight British Telecom made £19.24 million a week last year, £1.12 Billion!! The BBC made £145 million and Poundland the most crappiest of shops which are budget beyond belief, made £19.8 million.

Hornby, another major model manufacturer, who own, Humbrol, Corgi and Airfix made £6.1 million.

Unless they get more mainstream they cannot afford to make things cheaper, it simply cannot be taken as a risk, 2008 GW only made £1.8 million so during that year all thoughts were probably “Phew, by God that was a close shave!”.

If they become mainstream (cartoon etc) I don't think they would not make things simpler. They might make a simplified version but to guess that they would revamp the whole gaming system to accommodate the new fans is pure guesswork.

It is what it is and does what it does. If you want to join in – start reading and learning.

I think to guesstimate about cartoons, films and simplified versions which will rot our core hobby and saying that GW is all about greed is missing the point; making models is an expensive business and unless you want to see the game fold there has to be an increase in price.

I've never felt comfortable at any of my local GW, it doesn't help that I'm shy either. But from what I've observed they have never been offensive to any childern outside my family.
My little bother however was bullied by staff over my painting and other topics.

Sad I would have loved for him to get into the hobby, but =(

Monster Rain wrote:The only experiences I have had with GW employees have been positive.

I don't think that rudeness and horror are the norm in their establishments.

While being vociferous about the corporate money grabbing aspect of GW's bean counters, the guys I've encoutered on the shop floor have always been courteous and helpful and have never been asked to buy anything. Never experienced the heavy handed hard sell.

If they are being leaned on by the top brass to be pushy then the ones I have met are resisting that and long may they do so.

OP is being very touchy IMO.

Obviously you need the 8th edition rules to play the 8th edition game. People are still allowed to play the 7th edition game if they choose to, but they will be restricted to 7th edition source material. If anything was pointless, it was 7th edition - 8th has actually significantly changed the metagame.

I'm far from the last person to complain about prices rises, but it won't be the end of the hobby. I've frequented my new local GW (I've just moved near to one) and haven't found the staff to be pushy at all. They're all avid gamers who would like to see more people playing their favourite games, but it's not like they give anything but helpful information.
The GW staff are not there to cater to veteran gamers, they're there to introduce people to the hobby and run promotional events. They are retailers. They'll recommend you buy two tactical squads because you need two troop choices to play a game.

To be honest I can't see GW going mainstream. As for licensing their IP has you no theard of the number of times GW have issued legal orders stopping people from using something even close to their IP.

Going down the cartoon route would not make GW more money and they know this. Once the market is saturated with images of 40K or Fantasy who's going to continue to buy it. Not to mention the fact that kids have a very short attention span. A cartoon/toy series is hot for maybe 1 or 2 years and then they die off as the target market moves on to the next big thing.

I agree that GW has changed over the years, but all companies go through these changes. GW now has to compete with a lot more online stores who can afford to sell thei rproducts at a reduced price as they don't have the same overheads.

You also have to look at the sheer size of the company as it now. When I first started playing in the UK they were celebrating opening their 100th store now they have over 500. Such rapid expansion has to be paid for and unfortunately it us gamers now have to pay the price.

Staff have had to change in line with GW marketing policy, which has gone from supporting the older gamer and providing a more complete hobby experience, to lets sell a bucket load of stuff to the new guy and then forget him as he won't need anything for a while.

In the UK a lot of the smaller stores have also shifted to one man stores, this has lead to a cut in opening hours and also a drop in service. I can only hope this changes as more people join the company. Their reasoning behind this shift is to try and train everybody in their stores to be able to run a store independantly so that promotions within the company don't lead to a power vacuum. Nothing worse than walking into a store where nobody knows what's going on.

At least all you guys over the pond have the advantage of having a network of well run and successful independent retailers, over hear the expansion of GW has lead to the death of most of these smaller stores. I recently had a good chat with the owner of an independent store and he told me he felt there was no point stocking GW products while there is a GW store close by as they cannot make money on there stock.

Basically GW are not going to switch to being a mainstream mass media company as there is no long term profit in it. They have been going for the last 30 years and made a success of their niche market why go through the upheaval of changing to make some quick cash with no long term returns.

As for the staff you complain about, look how many guys work in your local store and how long they have to work and you may get a clue why they are doing things wrong in your opinion. We all have our bad days. If I had to deal with spoilt brats everyday whose parents buy them whatever they want without thinking of the cost I think I would get annoyed, knowing I had to work an 8 hour shift just to pay for that latest addition to my army, I'd be seriously cheesed off as well.

Now that was a serious rant

Justicar Alaric wrote:To be honest I can't see GW going mainstream. As for licensing their IP has you no theard of the number of times GW have issued legal orders stopping people from using something even close to their IP.

They've already licensed their IP for use in computer games, and they've flirted with film and other media for a long time now.


The thing to me, is that when you break it down GW's actual settings, they're not that remarkable. Thereis admittedly a great breadth as their settings have been around for decades, but that can't be captured in a new medium anyway. What's unique about GW is that it's realised in miniatures. Take that away and stick the setting in a cartoon and you've taken away the thing that made it unique and interesting in the first place.

CT GAMER wrote:I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

If they figure out a viable way to make mainstream bucks with regular toys, simplified wargames, video games, merchandising etc. Then us war gamers won't eve be needed anymore, and certainly not us whiny, nostalgic veteran gamers that are never satisfied anyways...

If they seriously want to break into the mainstream market that way, then they're really going to have to start being more realistic with their prices. GW's lost a lot of business because of sticker shock.

And if they did and could increase their sale 10 fold you probably would see their prices drop as it became cheaper unit to manifacture, but I would think one has to happen before the other.

sebster wrote:You can't exploit a customer by charging him a price he's willing to pay for a consumer good. Water? Yes. Toy models? No.

GW customers are not just customers though, they are also hobbyists, a loyal fan base, and part of the gaming community. While I'm sure GW do have certain percentage of people who turn up, buy something and are never seen again. I would hazard a guess that most of their sales are made to regular hobbyists, who may have been playing their games and collecting their miniatures for many years.

And actually I do think that if you keep raising and raising your prices to see how much you can squeeze them for. Then it might be profitable, but it isn't really fair on the fans. I think it qualifies as exploiting their loyalty. And I don't believe that is admirable behaviour, if you can get your product out to your fans at a fair price that doesn't destroy demand, then you should. I can't see how the steep increase in the cost of plastics can be justified by costs. I think it is just greed.

This is further exemplified by the codex books.

40k 2nd edition was a stand alone game. Everything you needed to play the game was in the box. There were codex books, but these were supplements. As it happens I bought all the codex books for 2nd edition.

But that is all changed now, and the change has not been for the benefit of the customer. Codex books are no longer a supplement, they contain crucial army lists needed to play the game. If you bought the rules then you also have to buy at least one codex book or you wasted your money. and you have to buy more if you want to have any clue what your opponent is doing, or if their army is even legal. That is in my opinion the very definition of an underhanded sales technique. It's not good for the customer or the game... The very idea that you can spend over £50 on the 40k rules and a 'supplement' and still not have enough rules for a basic battle is laughable, but that is what GW does.

What is more annoying is that you can't just buy army lists. I don't really want a full codex book personally because I've already read most of the fluff a million times, I already know what a chaplain is, I don't need or want paint schemes. Yet you can't get the army list unless you buy the whole lot. Again I think this is exploiting the customer by forcing them to pay extra for a bunch of stuff they don't want, just to get the little bit they need.

So again I will say that I don't think games workshop is just carving out an honest living selling their product to people who want it. It's a good product, and the creative people behind it do a fine job. But GW employs a lot of shrewd techniques to bolster their profits, which don't help the consumer at all. So it is no wonder people complain and feel animosity towards them.

SmackCakes wrote:

sebster wrote:You can't exploit a customer by charging him a price he's willing to pay for a consumer good. Water? Yes. Toy models? No.

GW customers are not just customers though, they are also hobbyists, a loyal fan base, and part of the gaming community. While I'm sure GW do have certain percentage of people who turn up, buy something and are never seen again. I would hazard a guess that most of their sales are made to regular hobbyists, who may have been playing their games and collecting their miniatures for many years.

So again I will say that I don't think games workshop is just carving out an honest living selling their product to people who want it. It's a good product, and the creative people behind it do a fine job. But GW employs a lot of shrewd techniques to bolster their profits, which don't help the consumer at all. So it is no wonder people complain and feel animosity towards them.

With respect you really don't know how a business works. You are a customer, first, foremost and always. Other things affect prices which are well away from the control of GW. Prices of metal, for example, pushes up costs, as does increases in fuel costs.

Extra publications with the codex stripped out leaving the army lists? That in itself is an extra expense pushing up the prices of everything just to accomodate another space on a shelf that can be filled by other stock.

You are accusing GW of not being honest, with devious techniques, yet you don't know how it all goes together.

Honestly, I don't see it that way. GW has been "dooming themselves" for at least the past 10 years according to the internet throngs.

My local store staff are great, and I've been a veteran floating in and out of the hobby for almost 20 years. yeah, they have to sell product, but if you're around long enough it mystically transforms from a business relationship to a friendship.

Elmodiddly wrote:With respect you really don't know how a business works. You are a customer, first, foremost and always. Other things affect prices which are well away from the control of GW. Prices of metal, for example, pushes up costs, as does increases in fuel costs.

Extra publications with the codex stripped out leaving the army lists? That in itself is an extra expense pushing up the prices of everything just to accomodate another space on a shelf that can be filled by other stock.

You are accusing GW of not being honest, with devious techniques, yet you don't know how it all goes together.

Actually I have my own limited company :-P

I do appreciate the GW has overheads beyond their control. But I don't think they do a good job of taking care of their customers. And in my opinion that is never going to be good for business.

There is presently another topic running specifically about codex books. Read through and see what other people are saying. I'm pretty sure I saw people complaining about the prices compared to other books, and the phrase "I don't like being ripped off".

The army list book that came with 2nd edition was tiny. It could easily be stapled in the back of the main rules and it should be. But the reason it isn't is because it's a money spinner. Games workshop use it in order to sell the more expensive codex books. But I would argue that is not good for business and certainly not good for the customers...

Having something that people 100% want that is reasonably priced is obviously going to sell better than something people only 10% want that is unreasonably priced. That is just common sense, and I think a much better business model.

Course it does, it becomes a very personal thing with your own more pressing needs and wants which outweighs everyones elses.

If you examine any internet forum for any service in the world, be it for rail timetables through to government policies, the largest voices are those who are dissatisfied with their lot.

Elmodiddly wrote:Course it does, it becomes a very personal thing with your own more pressing needs and wants which outweighs everyones elses.

If you examine any internet forum for any service in the world, be it for rail timetables through to government policies, the largest voices are those who are dissatisfied with their lot.

I don't see how encouraging growth and repeat sales through customer satisfaction is personal to me.

I was replying to Athera's post but you got another post in first.

One of the main points raised from the annual financial report for GW was that they expect to concentrate upon the training of the Store Managers so that they can give a better service.

Things might change from what some people perceive to be a poor service. As I said beore though it is always the people who have the issues shout the loudest and are probably in a minority but they have the biggest voice so it appears that there is something inherantly wrong.

Elmodiddly wrote:I was replying to Athera's post but you got another post in first.

One of the main points raised from the annual financial report for GW was that they expect to concentrate upon the training of the Store Managers so that they can give a better service.

Things might change from what some people perceive to be a poor service. As I said beore though it is always the people who have the issues shout the loudest and are probably in a minority but they have the biggest voice so it appears that there is something inherantly wrong.

There's also somewhat of a disconnect between the frontline store staff and the upper management. The upper management have traditionally wanted the store staff to concentrate on the new kids. The store staff learn quickly that it isn't the new kids that drive their sales, it's the community that steps up and makes the numbers for them.

At the store I go to, i can count the "kids" on one hand, it's the rest of us, the older guys (and by older I mean late teens on) that play in the store campaigns that are there every day. the "kids" roll in once a week, make a mess and their parents won't buy them anything. "Maybe if you mow the lawn, get a good grade on your next math test and put the laundry away when we get home, I'll look for one on eBay for you."

Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

No, but I do predict that your posts will continue remain devoid of humor...


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Justicar Alaric wrote:m. As for licensing their IP has you no theard of the number of times GW have issued legal orders stopping people from using something even close to their IP.

And your point is?

That is stopping nerds on the internet from using their IP without permission.

"Licensing their IP" means getting companies to pay them to use their IP. People like computer game companies and FFG, etc. Sort of like what your starting to see more and more as of late...

Athera wrote:
There's also somewhat of a disconnect between the frontline store staff and the upper management. The upper management have traditionally wanted the store staff to concentrate on the new kids. The store staff learn quickly that it isn't the new kids that drive their sales, it's the community that steps up and makes the numbers for them.

At the store I go to, i can count the "kids" on one hand, it's the rest of us, the older guys (and by older I mean late teens on) that play in the store campaigns that are there every day. the "kids" roll in once a week, make a mess....

This will read very odd and in some way belligerent but it isn't meant that way, it is a simply question; How do you know? You're saying that the management are some way sidelining the adult gamer. How?

CT GAMER wrote:I'm not so sure.

I see GW potentially entering an era of transformation in which they are testing the viability of mainstream mass market appeal:

Look at all the video game licenses in the works, movies, board games w/ FFG, etc.

I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

If they figure out a viable way to make mainstream bucks with regular toys, simplified wargames, video games, merchandising etc. Then us war gamers won't eve be needed anymore, and certainly not us whiny, nostalgic veteran gamers that are never satisfied anyways...

I agree with this.

GW has an incredibly unique and incredibly marketable IP. This is merely one reason why they keep it under strict lock and key. Everybody complains about it, but I don't blame them one bit, I'd probably do the same. They are entering an era of exploration; finding new revenue streams for their IP. I / we, can only hope that it benefits the tabletop games we love and not detract from them. Only time will tell.

SmackCakes wrote:GW customers are not just customers though, they are also hobbyists, a loyal fan base, and part of the gaming community.

That's what a customer is. When you need to buy something to live or maintain a basic level of living then you're more than customer and very high pricing can be called exploitative. But if it's a hobby, it isn't exploitative. If the prices get too high you can stop buying and just play with what you've got or move to another, cheaper game. There's plenty of other games out there.

And actually I do think that if you keep raising and raising your prices to see how much you can squeeze them for. Then it might be profitable, but it isn't really fair on the fans. I think it qualifies as exploiting their loyalty. And I don't believe that is admirable behaviour, if you can get your product out to your fans at a fair price that doesn't destroy demand, then you should.

GW has obligations to share holders to give them the greatest return.

I can't see how the steep increase in the cost of plastics can be justified by costs. I think it is just greed.

Yes, they're charging what they can, that's what businesses do. I'd like the prices to to be less, but given it takes me about two months to paint a box of models (I don't get much time to paint and I'm really slow) then I just don't see $50 every couple of months as an expensive hobby. I see a couple of movie a month so over two moths you're looking at $50 to $60. I go out to dinner about once a week, there's $50 gone every time. A round at the pub costs $50. It is not an expensive hobby.

40k 2nd edition was a stand alone game. Everything you needed to play the game was in the box. There were codex books, but these were supplements. As it happens I bought all the codex books for 2nd edition.

There was a load of new options in the codices. I don't know anyone that played 2nd ed without their codex.

If you bought the rules then you also have to buy at least one codex book or you wasted your money. and you have to buy more if you want to have any clue what your opponent is doing, or if their army is even legal.

It's always been that way. And no, you don't have to buy your opponents codex, you can simply ask to borrow it off of a friend to read. That's how it has always been.

What is more annoying is that you can't just buy army lists. I don't really want a full codex book personally because I've already read most of the fluff a million times, I already know what a chaplain is, I don't need or want paint schemes. Yet you can't get the army list unless you buy the whole lot. Again I think this is exploiting the customer by forcing them to pay extra for a bunch of stuff they don't want, just to get the little bit they need.

The cost of printing a book at 15 pages is not actually that different to the cost of printing a book at 60 pages.

Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

Haha Great Joke.

Elmodiddly wrote:

Athera wrote:
There's also somewhat of a disconnect between the frontline store staff and the upper management. The upper management have traditionally wanted the store staff to concentrate on the new kids. The store staff learn quickly that it isn't the new kids that drive their sales, it's the community that steps up and makes the numbers for them.

At the store I go to, i can count the "kids" on one hand, it's the rest of us, the older guys (and by older I mean late teens on) that play in the store campaigns that are there every day. the "kids" roll in once a week, make a mess....

This will read very odd and in some way belligerent but it isn't meant that way, it is a simply question; How do you know? You're saying that the management are some way sidelining the adult gamer. How?

1) Simplifying of the games (go back to the "Little Jervis" debacle.)

2) Marines, Marines, Marines. And "Overpowered Marine army of the month".

I don't consider it to require a hard look to realize who GW is trying (and generally failing) to market to.

I actually have had some very positive experiences at the Westheimer GW in Houston. Dude running the joint is really laid back, but knows his stuff.

People have been doomcrying GW for years. I had a gamestore owner tell me he was firesaling all his GW kit because they were circling the drain and he wanted to get rid of the product so it wouldnt weigh down his business with crap he could no longer move. That was in 2000, and that store is long gone.

sebster wrote:I just don't see $50 every couple of months as an expensive hobby.

Well firstly you spend a lot less a month than I do. $50 Australian would hardly buy a tank here, throw in a can of spray and a book and you can double that.

Secondly it's not about how expensive it is. It's about value for money. Everything in GW is hugely overpriced for what it is. For example they charge £7 for 3 files... You can buy a set of 10 good quality jeweller's needle files for less than half that in other stores. You would have to be stupid to buy your tools there.

Unfortunately for things like Space Marines you don't have the option of buying them from a competitor, so you have to pay GW prices. £8 would be a reasonable price for 5 space marines, and they would probably be making a decent profit at that. £15 would be way over the top. Games Workshop charge £20.

There are lots of things I buy that I feel quite happy about the price (most things). I do buy GW stuff because I want it, but I'm very unhappy about the price because I know I'm being ridiculously ripped off. I feel stupid giving them that much money for so little, and my gf thinks I'm insane... I think I must be.

If the prices get too high you can stop buying and just play with what you've got or move to another, cheaper game. There's plenty of other games out there.

Literally thousands of people have already done that. That is what I probably will do too. In fact it's what I already am doing...

When I was young my friends and I used to play GW a lot. By the time we hit our teens all of them apart from me had quit playing. While they still maintained some interest, all of them stopped collecting because of the constant price hikes.

I did meet some other guys who played, but after not very long they all quit the hobby too claiming it was just abig money sink. My original friends would gasp and say WTFingF! when they saw how much GW had hiked up the prices since they'd quit. And prattle on about how right they were.

I lost interest around the time 3rd edition came out and invalidated all my codex books, and a lot of my miniatures (particularly my squat army).

When I decided I'd like to get back into GW... I was also like "WTFingF" when I saw how much they were charging these days. I actually didn't buy anything the first time I went back in the shop because I just wasn't comfortable paying that much.

I have bought a few bits now, but mainly I try to get second hand stuff of ebay or find alternative models. So in many ways GW has also lost my custom now too as well as all of my friends.

GW has obligations to share holders to give them the greatest return ... they're charging what they can, that's what businesses do.

But the problem is GW's strategy seems to be to get the greatest return per sale, not per customer. A customer is not just one sale. There is a popular idea in business called the 80:20 principle, which states that roughly 80% of your profits comes from 20% of your customers. This is your target audience. We can divide the world up into 4 types of people...

1. People who don't know about GW and wouldn't be interested anyway.
2. People who know about GW but aren't interested.
3. People who don't know about GW, but would be interested.
4. People who know about GW and buy their products.

Groups 1 and 2 are of no use to GW so we can ignore them. Group 4 is important because without them GW couldn't survive. And ideally they would like to get everyone from group 3 into group 4.

Myself and 2 different sets of friends were all group 4 type people. Exactly the type of people GW need, who contribute precious revenue. But what GW seem to do is to keep greedily bumping up their prices more and more until valuable customers who might of continued collecting for years just get annoyed and quit.

They've even started to lose my custom and I've been obsessed my whole life. And I have plenty of money too. I've spent hundreds (probably thousands) at GW over the years, and I would be more than happy to go on doing so... But I expect a little more value for money. If I spend £100 in GW I expect more than 1 squad and half a rule book, and they could afford to give me more, but they are too short sighted.

If the prices stop me buying GW, and I already know GW is a rip off but love it anyway... How are new potential customers going to feel. There must be thousands of potential customers who are put off from ever getting into the hobby by the prices.

If GW can't hold on to their current customers, and can't attract new customers. Eventually they will have zero customers. This is very simple.

Now you tell me again that GW are getting the best return for their share holders. Cause I say that's BS. I think they are slowly pricing themselves out of the market.

They have already suffered drops in the price of stock because they failed to hit promised targets. They are already loosing business to resales on ebay and pirated codex books.

And what is their solution? They put up their prices even more, and alienate even more of their good customers. *sigh*

It's always been that way. And no, you don't have to buy your opponents codex, you can simply ask to borrow it off of a friend to read. That's how it has always been.

It hasn't always been that way 2nd ed (and I believe 3rd) had a basic army list for every army. And I don't think borrowing a friends book is good enough. Codex books are as much reference books are they are anything else. I have to look stuff up in mine all the time, to check to wording and clarify things. You would at least need to make an illegal copy.

Also it isn't just about knowing your opponent's army. I have 9 different armies, at £17 a go that's £153 just to field them all again. If the books were £10 or contained a lot of new stuff that wasn't already in my 2nd ed books that I would consider buying them. But £17 each they can **** right off.

The cost of printing a book at 15 pages is not actually that different to the cost of printing a book at 60 pages.

They could put it in the rule book like they used to, or have it as a downloadable PDF on their web site. The reason they don't has nothing to do with costs.

I agree that the staff here the UK are becoming much less friendly and it seems that alot of the staff are just there because its a job.. which is unfortunate.

7 years ago when i started the staff at my FLGS were amazingly nice and welcomed me to the hobbs where as now all the staff are practicly forcing items down new peoples throats.

but you have to view it from both sides right?

When the dust settles we have to all agree that at the end of the day it is a shop, and they are there to sell items. and i think they are adding a strain with setting selling targets and most of the staff are probably worried about there positions and therefore trying to sell as much as possible.

SmackCakes wrote:Secondly it's not about how expensive it is. It's about value for money. Everything in GW is hugely overpriced for what it is. For example they charge £7 for 3 files... You can buy a set of 10 good quality jeweller's needle files for less than half that in other stores. You would have to be stupid to buy your tools there.

Thats true for alot of products from large companies. For example, in my store if something says " Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda" or any other motorcycle/ jet ski manufacturer, the price on whatever that particular product is, will at the very least, double or triple. For value, aftermarket is the way to go, and I always try to do that for my customers. Only those with the money and high amounts of brand loyalty pay the extra prices, and plenty do exactly that. This is not something unique to GW and it is common practice for big brand names.

Unfortunately for things like Space Marines you don't have the option of buying them from a competitor, so you have to pay GW prices. £8 would be a reasonable price for 5 space marines, and they would probably be making a decent profit at that. £15 would be way over the top. Games Workshop charge £20.

Not to sound combative, but how do you know what the profit margin is? How much would the company make if they sold them at your "reasonable" price? How much would the LGS retailer make after overhead costs are taken into account? Next time you buy something mundane(non hobby related), research how much it may have cost to make and compare it to what you paid for it. A retail mark up is required to keep businesses afloat. GW's practices are the norm in the retail world, not a unique exception.

Reply by: Thunderfrog - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 16:16:51

Post by: Thunderfrog

Wow, this has been a really good and clean thread so far. Interesting to read with good points on either side.

I think Smackcakes has the majority of it right, except I think he is putting too much reverence on the thought of a hobbyist. (Likely because he is one, as am I.)

That said, he was dead on with the 80-20 breakdown. I think GW is shortsighted and takes it even further, making 80% of a customers lifetime purchasing in one sale, assuming a person will build their core army and then suppliment it little by little over time.

That's bad.

Lets say I was rebuilding my Eldar list at my FLGS with my 10% loyal customer discount. Around 400$ for less than 75 models.

After spending that much money, I would never buy into another army at retail price. I may buy tiny bits and pieces to accent this list, but I'd never re-buy at retail. In fact, I didn't buy in at retail. I bought my starting list here at the Dakka Swap shop for around 180 dollars and a handful of video games.

Lower prices would allow..

More first timers.

More multiple army owners.

More consistant and steady purchasing as opposed to random large chunks of money.

GW is doing it wrong.

I like how they are branching out, and hopefully I get a Blood-bowl-esqe virtual 40k one day true to tabletop rules and gameplay, but I wont hold my breath.

Reply by: Burto89 - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 16:21:25

Post by: Burto89

SmackCakes wrote:

sebster wrote:I just don't see $50 every couple of months as an expensive hobby.

Well firstly you spend a lot less a month than I do. $50 Australian would hardly buy a tank here, throw in a can of spray and a book and you can double that.

Secondly it's not about how expensive it is. It's about value for money. Everything in GW is hugely overpriced for what it is. For example they charge £7 for 3 files... You can buy a set of 10 good quality jeweller's needle files for less than half that in other stores. You would have to be stupid to buy your tools there.

Unfortunately for things like Space Marines you don't have the option of buying them from a competitor, so you have to pay GW prices. £8 would be a reasonable price for 5 space marines, and they would probably be making a decent profit at that. £15 would be way over the top. Games Workshop charge £20.

There are lots of things I buy that I feel quite happy about the price (most things). I do buy GW stuff because I want it, but I'm very unhappy about the price because I know I'm being ridiculously ripped off. I feel stupid giving them that much money for so little, and my gf thinks I'm insane... I think I must be.

Dude Stop complaining about UK prices. 50 AUD only buys a rhino in aus, I have about 2000 points worth of orks back home in Aus and that took me 2 years to collect just because of prices, I then moved to the UK in march this year and now i live in London, and in the three months I had collected a full 1750 Space wolf list, plus a few extras, the entire Horus Heresy, carry case, paints dice, tape measure, all of which came from GW and I have not even come close to what i spent on my orks.

Here an example of the price difference, take into account that australia is on the opposite side of the world, so shipping costs and added, then australian GST etc...

Army Box: Uk 50 GBP

Aus 150 AUD


with the current exchange rate 150 AUD is worth 85.6 GBP. That is more than 45% more in price, now I don't mind paying that much for a hobby that i love and i did for many years but since i have been here all i have heard from English hobbyists is that " Its so expensive ". I guess what started me off was when you said that 50 AUD wouldn't buy a tank over here but actually It would buy a Rhino, Spray Paint, Glue. All you need to play the game.

On another note I have had many trips down to the local GW and they were telling me the other day the only reason prices have gone up is because of the VAT, and if GW had left there prices at the same level as before they would be losing money, so all this talk of them raising the prices just to see how far they can push our pockets is rubbish. At the moment they are struggling to take profit and having people, especially veterans who have supported and enjoyed the hobby for a long time, attacking them for being over expensive or exploiting their customers is just in bad taste.

and remember no matter how bad you think it is here, in Australia we pay almost double for our hobby and we dont have acces to warhammer world. All I know is that while I am in the UK i will be taking advantage of the cheap product.

thats my 2 cents anyway,

peace out

Reply by: twistinthunder - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 16:27:36

Post by: twistinthunder

30 years from now GW will be looked upon as a message to all companies to treat their customers with respect and stick to what they do best(at this point GW won't be a company anymore)

Reply by: Thunderfrog - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 16:36:17

Post by: Thunderfrog

twistinthunder wrote:30 years from now GW will be looked upon as a message to all companies to treat their customers with respect and stick to what they do best(at this point GW won't be a company anymore)

That's a bold statement, and honestly, unlikely.

Replace "all" with "the three or four companies in the miniatures and niche gaming market" and you may be closer to the mark. AT&T or Virgin Mobile won't give a single thought to how GW ran their business model.

Reply by: SmackCakes - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 16:43:40

Post by: SmackCakes

Not to sound combative, but how do you know what the profit margin is? How much would the company make if they sold them at your "reasonable" price?

You make a good point and I don't know. But the main clue is that a few months ago I bought 10 plastic skeletons for £10, 10 plastic Demonettes for £12, and 5 plastic Sanguinary guard for £20.

I don't think it is unfair to assume that all the boxes cost about the same to produce, and transport. The cost of having the kit sculpted and the mold built was probably the same. The kits have similar amounts of plastic... But in any case plastic is dirt cheap. If it wasn't GW obviously wouldn't be so liberal with sprues.

So why is there a £10 difference in price? In terms of cost it doesn't make sense. The obvious reason is that GW slapped an extra £10 on Sanguinary Guard because they believe they can squeeze an extra £10 out of people that way.

There is also the fact that GW used to sell plastic miniatures for very cheap. 30 marines for £10. A Rhino for £5. If we go back to 1996 most plastic model kits were 5-10 pound for 10 miniatures.

Cost of production may have risen since then, but they haven't risen hundreds of percent. What has been an issue is the rising price of tin.

To cope with fluctuating tin prices, GW is moving their miniature range over to plastic as part of their risk management. However! they aren't going to charge plastic prices. Instead they are charging for plastic what they used to charge for metal... It's quite sneaky actually.

Burto89 wrote:Dude Stop complaining about UK prices.

I never complained about UK prices, I believe UK prices are generally a bit cheaper that abroad. But I only have UK prices as a reference. Sebster claimed he spent around $25 per month. My point was that either stuff is very cheap there (doubtful) or he doesn't buy very much / downplaying how much he spends (probably one of those.

Reply by: Gitsplitta - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 16:52:34

Post by: Gitsplitta

Please keep in mind that GW is not a person, it does not have emotions or loyalty or malice... it is simply a construct, a machine who's sole purpose is to generate profit for those who own it.

As long as it can continue to generate profit on an ever increasing scale (because that is the definition of a successful business model), the "hobby" will be safe and sustained. If they find a different way to generate more profit using their intellectual capital (as CT suggests), you can count on the fact that they'll do it. Hobby be damned. That is the nature of business... plain and simple.

GW haters and GW apologists are two sides of the same coin, equally ridiculous... or perhaps naive would be a better word. Relax, enjoy the ride. If you get priced out so be it... happens all the time, find another hobby or take your gaming "off-the-grid" with the models and rules you've already purchased. That's perfectly fine. If they find a better way to make money that's perfectly fine too... they're a business, that's their right.

I'm reminded of a great old song I heard last night by Bob Seger... called "Night Moves". A line in the song states...

"I used her, she used me, but neither one cared... we were gettin' our share."

That's kind of how I look at the relationship between GW and it's hobbyists. As long as we both get enough of what we need out of the relationship, it keeps going. When either side feels slighted... you bail. That's the nature of the beast: the sooner you come to terms with it, the more you can enjoy it while things are good & the less it'll hurt when things go bad.


(Edited for typos & clarity - Gits)

Reply by: Thunderfrog - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 16:59:38

Post by: Thunderfrog

Gitsplitta,

If your 1,135 other posts are as intuitive and even handed as that one, I may consider raising my children in Madison Wisconsin, where they might soak up some of your radiant wisdom.

Reply by: Gitsplitta - click to view full reply 

26790

WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 17:15:12

Post by: Gitsplitta

LOL! Well, I'm allowed my "moments of clarity"... says so in my contract. (at least that's what I tell my wife)

Reply by: SmackCakes - click to view full reply 

31026

WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 17:28:10

Post by: SmackCakes

Burto89 wrote:At the moment they are struggling to take profit

Yeah that can happen when you price yourself out of the market. The key to a successful business model is prices that reflect and encourage demand. If you look at the other topic running at the moment 'If money was no object' that might give you an idea of how much people would actually like to buy before there is no longer a demand.

I saw people talking about a whole space marine chapter with vehicles. I can't say I haven't dreamed of this my self on occasion. Something like that could easily set you back £5000. It's rare that you see anyone with an army that big though.

I think the biggest marine armies I generally see are about 2 companies inc vehicles. So for arguments sake I would suggest that the most you could expect a gamer to spend over their career is 1-2k.

That suggests that If marine squads and rhinos were £10 each, there would still be demand. So people wouldn't spend less they would just buy more, and probably spend more because it's a better deal. Also people who aren't willing to spend £20 per box but are willing to spend £10 per box would also buy more. If more people buy more units and spend more money then that can only be good for business.

At the moment GW prices are way disproportional to demand.

Reply by: Scott-S6 - click to view full reply 

13518

WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 17:38:07

Post by: Scott-S6

SmackCakes wrote:I saw people talking about a whole space marine chapter with vehicles. I can't say I haven't dreamed of this my self on occasion. Something like that could easily set you back £5000. It's rare that you see anyone with an army that big though.

I think your numbers are way off. A marine company with vehicles is about £1400 so a chapter is a hell of a lot more than £5K!

The reason you don't see people collecting more than a company or so is because there's no point to it. They can justify spending the money on stuff they would use but who needs 44 tactical squads?

Reply by: Scrazza - click to view full reply 

16217

WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 18:37:56

Post by: Scrazza

I never had any problems with the GW staff of my locale GW. They are quite friendly in fact.

Reply by: Slipstream - click to view full reply 

10143

WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 19:14:16

Post by: Slipstream

This is something for the people telling the others to stop whining about prices;the higher the price,less and less new players=less money for GW=no new stuff=decline in hobby=we're all doomed!
EVERYONE has a hobby cut off point.The more the price goes up,the more players give up;its only plastic afterall not a precious substance!
Edinburgh staff are generally great,never had a problem with them,they know when to stop.

Reply by: Eberious - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 19:46:19

Post by: Eberious

I've only ever had one bad GW staff member experience, out of the 17-18 years in the hobby/game and 4-5 different GW shops. Every other staff member I have come across, even in the outside world of the GW shop have been great(at least to your face anyways).

I think maybe, if anyone has that many bad experiences of GW staff members to say they are all bad, then maybe it's you? ( people in general)

Reply by: Eilif - click to view full reply 

24779

WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 20:11:13

Post by: Eilif

Gitsplitta wrote:That's kind of how I look at the relationship between GW and it's hobbyists. As long as we both get enough of what we need out of the relationship, it keeps going. When either side feels slighted... you bail. That's the nature of the beast: the sooner you come to terms with it, the more you can enjoy it while things are good & the less it'll hurt when things go bad.
(Edited for typos & clarity - Gits)

That's a pretty great explaination. The GW hobby is definitely a relationship. It's a relationship that includes great miniatures, a built-in gaming community (read easy to find a game), but at a fairly steep cost.

I think that's the root of alot of peoples frustration, they hate the GW cost, but they find it really hard to stop buying the models, or they really value the built-in community that GW gaming provides.

No one wants to go, it alone, and many GW gamers don't have a clue what kind of gaming community is there outside GW. Thus every month or so someone says GW stinks (or GW's too expensive, or GW's employee's are awful) but rather than just moving on someone encourages a boycot, or predicts the end of the company to try and get other folks to leave with them. Yet the truth is that it never works, GW will increase their prices next year, GW will not listen to it's customers and GW will be around for a long time.

So to the disaffected GW'er, I say "Listen to Gitsplitta. A relationship it is, but it ain't a marriage. You can explore other options, see what's out there, play another game on the side, meet gamers who arent' GW'centric. If it comes time to split it won't hurt so much, and as many once-former GW'ers have said, you can always come back."

In case anyone is wondering, I do practice what I preach. I play 40k and a couple other much less expensive games, and it's really nice to have options.

Reply by: Gitsplitta - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 20:22:08

Post by: Gitsplitta

Eilif wrote:A relationship it is, but it ain't a marriage.

Amen brother. I wanted to work that analogy in, but couldn't figure out how... you've done it masterfully.


...


BTW, I may make the "listen to Gitsplitta" a part of my sig... no one's EVER said that before! LOL!

Reply by: metallifan - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 20:29:20

Post by: metallifan

Wings of Light wrote:Hello my friends!

I found that GW has changed a lot over the years(it might only be moments for some of the vets here, I've only played this game for...not very long and I see the change of them)They used to have really nice staff members and a good system of introducing and teaching.Now they are rising the prices of everything, and with new players, they give them a brief demo game and start telling them "you should buy this".

Another issue is how they treat the vets...When 8th ed fantasy first came out, GW staff told every veteran in my LFGS to buy the book.Its like all they care is money, the old "gaming community" concept is breaking apart!Its like how Saruman abandoned the forest for his desires...

As a young gamer, I see the end of GW coming at them rapidly.They are dooming themselves, and if they dont do anything about it, they will start shrinking instead of expending.This, of course, is only my personal opinion.

What do you think?Will they change their attitude?Any thoughts from a different perspective?
Speak your mind

(I might have a lot of grammer mistakes in this thread, but I just want to make my point here)

Welcome to the daily gripes of a 40K player.

Reply by: Eldar Own - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 20:44:54

Post by: Eldar Own

All the local(ish) GWs i go to vary in niceness of staff members. None of them are evil, but some i prefer more than others.

Not many of them pressure you to buy anything, when i brought the WHFB rulebook i had quite a long chat with the GW staff member about what's changed and how it might affect game play, he never said "you should buy it" or anything like that. I remeber, ages ago, when i started to get into WHFB playing a demo of skull pass with a staff member, it wasn't too short and was informative, though i remember i rolled dreadfully for my break tests and most of my units ended up fleeing off the board.

So, i conclude from my ramblings that, some GW staff members are nicer than others, and you may just be unlucky that your GW has not-so-nice staff, because in my opinion they're quite nice people.

Reply by: Girthman - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 21:53:33

Post by: Girthman

My general Problem with the staff member (the manager) is that I cannot just go in and shop for things, I always feel like there is this dark looming figure shadowing me everywhere I go pressuring me to buy every single thing I look at, Idk how this makes you guys feel, but it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, and I dont find the staff member trustworth enough to ask them a question about a certain model and expect an honest answer, all I get is "yah man! theyre awesome!!!, Oh they are so good!, yea! you absolutely need to get it."

and when I barely even touch one fricken thing to look at it I get "so man your gonna get some [insert model name here]? but yea thats my problem with Gw staff members, I understand that they have to sell theyre product but seriously....lighten up.

Reply by: Monster Rain - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 22:13:17

Post by: Monster Rain

Did you tell him that you know what you want, and that's all? Any sales person will back off if they meet a firm, "No Thank You." Most will, anyway.

Reply by: Girthman - click to view full reply 

25501

WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 22:18:51

Post by: Girthman

Ive only actually been in the store about 3-4 times, since the store had barely opened about a month or 2 ago.

but yea this guy is pretty relentless, I dont wanna be too firm though cuz I'd hate to get a bad rep and gain some enemies at the only store that sells Gw products that is close by (about a 15 minute drive from my home).

Reply by: Monster Rain - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 22:55:16

Post by: Monster Rain

Girthman wrote:Ive only actually been in the store about 3-4 times, since the store had barely opened about a month or 2 ago.

but yea this guy is pretty relentless, I dont wanna be too firm though cuz I'd hate to get a bad rep and gain some enemies at the only store that sells Gw products that is close by (about a 15 minute drive from my home).

Firm doesn't mean rude.

Just say that you know exactly what you're looking for, and that's all. I find that communication tends to clear up a lot of this awkwardness.

Reply by: weetyskemian44 - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/26 23:04:28

Post by: weetyskemian44

I'm inclined to agree with gillsplitta. If GW are going to price the hobbyist out of the market then we can all go ebay shopping and to hell with profits for the shareholders. Vote with your feet, its the only language business understands.

To be honest I mostly lost interest after about 2000 and all i want to do now is buy up all the minis from the 80s/early 90s, wallow in nostalgia and if anyone happens to be passing and has a 2nd edition rule book and army list I will give em a game

If they manage to make a go of it in this whole cartoon/kidstoyz thing thats being discussed then I will loose interest and go paint a painting. But I don't see why they would - adults have more money than kids and society is aging - less kids

Reply by: sebster - click to view full reply 

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WTF is wrong with GW staff members?? @ 2010/08/27 04:14:50

Post by: sebster

SmackCakes wrote:Well firstly you spend a lot less a month than I do. $50 Australian would hardly buy a tank here, throw in a can of spray and a book and you can double that.

Meh, I used the price for a box of Empire flagellants, as that's what I just bought. You can make it $75 or $100 if you want, point is that for a once a month purchase that isn't a lot for a hobby.

Seriously, a movie and dinner with my girlfriend will cost about $100, and that's not going anywhere fancy. Two movie tickets are $20 to $30, two mains are $25 each, two drinks a piece comes to $30; for a total of just over $100. That is the cost of things.

Secondly it's not about how expensive it is. It's about value for money. Everything in GW is hugely overpriced for what it is. For example they charge £7 for 3 files... You can buy a set of 10 good quality jeweller's needle files for less than half that in other stores. You would have to be stupid to buy your tools there.

Then you do what everyone else does... and you don't buy your tools there. It isn't exploitation to offer an overpriced item that no-one needs to buy.

Unfortunately for things like Space Marines you don't have the option of buying them from a competitor, so you have to pay GW prices. £8 would be a reasonable price for 5 space marines, and they would probably be making a decent profit at that. £15 would be way over the top. Games Workshop charge £20.

If you don't know the cost structure at GW then you're just making up numbers. Why £8, why not £6? What's the marginal profit on £8, and how many units would you have to move to clear the individual store's fixed costs? How many more units would you have to move to clear that store's share of corporate overheads, and how many more after that to start covering the cost of capital?

There are lots of things I buy that I feel quite happy about the price (most things). I do buy GW stuff because I want it, but I'm very unhappy about the price because I know I'm being ridiculously ripped off. I feel stupid giving them that much money for so little, and my gf thinks I'm insane... I think I must be.

If you look at a box of minis as $50 worth of plastic you're getting ripped. If you look at a computer game as a $100 DVD that you need to buy a computer for as well then you're also getting ripped, but who looks at a computer game that way? That computer game is, if it's any good, 30 or more hours of fun, at which point that $100 price tag starts looking pretty reasonable.

It only makes sense to look at that $50 box of plastic minis in the same way. I'll spend twenty odd hours painting a box of ten guys, and then use those guys in games once a month for years to come. That $50 quickly becomes trivial.

Literally thousands of people have already done that. That is what I probably will do too. In fact it's what I already am doing...

Exactly! That's your choice, that you're free to make at any stage. Depending on what you're looking for, I'd even be happy to make recommendations for other games.

The point is as long as you have that choice, it makes no sense to claim GW is exploitative.

When I decided I'd like to get back into GW... I was also like "WTFingF" when I saw how much they were charging these days. I actually didn't buy anything the first time I went back in the shop because I just wasn't comfortable paying that much.

If you don't like the price then don't buy it... GW doesn't owe it to you to charge what you'd like to pay, just as you don't owe it to them to pay whatever price they charge.

But the problem is GW's strategy seems to be to get the greatest return per sale, not per customer. A customer is not just one sale.

But you have to consider the possibility that GW knows that, and other basic factors get in the way of people just buying as much as they want.

There is a popular idea in business called the 80:20 principle, which states that roughly 80% of your profits comes from 20% of your customers.

I know the model, it's a solid one for teaching commerce students the basics of customer differentiation. Do you really think a company generating £100 million a year in revenue wouldn't have a pretty solid understanding of its customer groups? Perhaps a better understanding than some people on the internet who buy some of their stuff?

Because the truth is that actual, detailed customer differentiation gets a lot more complex than the 80:20 model, because a whole lot of customers fit into different groups (steady vs splurge, burn-out vs long term customers, all kinds of things like that). Really substantial models track correlations between different groups... "what proportion of our top 20% of customers tend to be splurge purchasers, and if that number is low should we continue with the wave model of releases?"

If GW can't hold on to their current customers, and can't attract new customers. Eventually they will have zero customers. This is very simple.

You say this as though you're a management accountant working at GW. I'm guessing you aren't, so you don't know their customer models, you don't know their break-even points, you basically don't know anything that goes into their pricing decisions.

GW have been in the game for decades, in an industry defined by a lack of profitability. They are the only company anywhere near their scale of operations, and they've achieved that position by following the same basic business model since at least the early 90s. Declaring that now all of a sudden their business model is doomed to failure is a bit silly.

It hasn't always been that way 2nd ed (and I believe 3rd) had a basic army list for every army. And I don't think borrowing a friends book is good enough. Codex books are as much reference books are they are anything else. I have to look stuff up in mine all the time, to check to wording and clarify things. You would at least need to make an illegal copy.

They had basic lists with stat values and points costs. Same as 2nd ed. These were miles short of what a codex provided, to the point where I never once met a person who wanted to play a game based entirely on the codices in the back of the book.

They could put it in the rule book like they used to, or have it as a downloadable PDF on their web site. The reason they don't has nothing to do with costs.

You've missed the point. A 60 page codex with recycled fluff would have a cost per printing only marginally higher than a 15 page codex full of rules.

twistinthunder wrote:30 years from now GW will be looked upon as a message to all companies to treat their customers with respect and stick to what they do best(at this point GW won't be a company anymore)

People have been prophesising the doom of GW for decades. Over that time they've been the only consistantly profitable miniatures game company.

Gitsplitta wrote:That's kind of how I look at the relationship between GW and it's hobbyists. As long as we both get enough of what we need out of the relationship, it keeps going. When either side feels slighted... you bail. That's the nature of the beast: the sooner you come to terms with it, the more you can enjoy it while things are good & the less it'll hurt when things go bad.

You ever spend more and more words trying to say something and finding you just can't explain something clearly... then someone else comes along and says it perfectly with hardly any words at all?

Well that just happened to me.

SmackCakes wrote:At the moment GW prices are way disproportional to demand.

What market pricing models have you applied to your data to reach that conclusion?

Or have you just decided that you don't like the prices, therefore they're too high?

sebster wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:If GW can't hold on to their current customers, and can't attract new customers. Eventually they will have zero customers. This is very simple.

You say this as though you're a management accountant working at GW. I'm guessing you aren't, so you don't know their customer models.

I said 'IF'... I don't need to be a management accountant to know that a company with with no new customers and no old customers, has no customers. You can figure that out yourself.

Do you really think a company generating £100 million a year in revenue wouldn't have a pretty solid understanding of its customer groups? Perhaps a better understanding than some people on the internet who buy some of their stuff?

You would think so wouldn't you? But honestly nothing surprises me.

History is awash with companies that made face palmingly bad decisions. Experts get it wrong all the time (take for example... the entire global economy.) It isn't just small companies. Huge market leaders have folded overnight through mismanagement that defies all reason. Failure to keep up with changing times is often the cause, but greed is a huge factor too.

Games Workshop is not above making mistakes or becoming out of touch with their customers. It's something all businesses a susceptible to.

GW have been in the game for decades, in an industry defined by a lack of profitability. They are the only company anywhere near their scale of operations, and they've achieved that position by following the same basic business model since at least the early 90s. Declaring that now all of a sudden their business model is doomed to failure is a bit silly.

I did not at any time declare they were doomed. I'm sure when it's £60 for a 5 man dev squad. Some idiot somewhere will still be buying them (hopefully not me), and GW will somehow still be around.

But I really don't think they are that smart. All they've done is taken something that sold for 50p 25 years ago, and slowly hiked it up to £12... And amazingly got away with it too (despite all the customers they lost on the way). So far so good, I'm sure all the real sales managers at GW must think they're geniuses. But you can't just keep raising prices above inflation indefinitely and not expect it to effect sales... Everyone has their limit.

You've missed the point. A 60 page codex with recycled fluff would have a cost per printing only marginally higher than a 15 page codex full of rules.

Well that's not true, GW print White Dwarf every month, and they don't charge £17.50 for it. So I put it to you that GW can in fact prints a 15+ page document and sell it for less than 17.50.

SmackCakes wrote:But I really don't think they are that smart. All they've done is taken something that sold for 50p 25 years ago, and slowly hiked it up to £12... And amazingly got away with it too (despite all the customers they lost on the way). So far so good, I'm sure all the real sales managers at GW must think they're geniuses. But you can't just keep raising prices above inflation indefinitely and not expect it to effect sales... Everyone has their limit.

You told me a couple of days ago that you own your own PLC company yet you say this! How can you possibly say that they have raised prices above inflation but miss completely the global economy and how it has affected everything around us?

No-one has got away with anything, they have a price structure and sell items accordingly. The fact that they continue to trade means that they got it right. Too expensive and no-one buys the items, too cheap and they don't make money and collapse.

Everyone hates price rises. Everyone galls at putting hands in pockets to find less and less in there each year but to say that GW is ripping people off is ridiculous. 2006-2008 were the worst for GW on recent record with barely any profits made, despite your insistences that they rip people off. They have to price items in the way in which they do otherwise they'd go under.

Look at the figures, look at operating costs and profits made. here All figures quoted are pre-tax too! Then you might understand just how close to the mark GW has been to operating at a loss.

Flames of War recently had to up their prices too, despite a very firm statement to say thay they would not, but had to cave in with the changes in the economy. Every business has to follow the curve otherwise they fail.

I was very upset after my last visit to GW.

They have A GIRL WORKING THERE!!!

I know, I was freaked out, I had to leave.

LOL s.j.

Elmodiddly wrote:No-one has got away with anything, they have a price structure and sell items accordingly. The fact that they continue to trade means that they got it right. Too expensive and no-one buys the items, too cheap and they don't make money and collapse.

Everyone hates price rises. Everyone galls at putting hands in pockets to find less and less in there each year but to say that GW is ripping people off is ridiculous. 2006-2008 were the worst for GW on recent record with barely any profits made, despite your insistences that they rip people off. They have to price items in the way in which they do otherwise they'd go under.

I think if they operated differently they could shift a greater volume of sales for a smaller price which could net them overall more profit and a larger more robust customer base. But for a long time now GW have stuck with the approach that every sign of losses or trouble is met with a price increase. They only have one strategy and they've got their heads down and are running with it. It may be past the point of no return and they are either unwilling or unable to try a radically different approach. Evenually prices will become unsustainable what with an ever decreasing handful of customers propping up an ever more expensive hobby, but by then it may be too late to win back mass appeal. So they'll probably sell it off to hasbro or someone or go entirely into marketing their IP through films and computer games and scrap the miniatures and the shops.

GW prices have to become unsustainable at some point because they are constantly rising against inflation so they are getting more expensive in real terms. Are we going to see the day when a box of 10 plastic marines is the equivalent of £50 in today's money? I can't see it going that far, there has to be a ceiling somewhere. Continually rising prices well above the level of inflation is not a sustainable way to run a business, it's a sign that it simply doesn't make enough steady money to keep itself afloat, or that there are people milking it with no real interest in the longevity of the company.

And yet...prices go up for models, but cost remains surprisingly static.

Consider the plethora of Plastic Kits now available, offering a cheaper way to build up your army, with a greater variety of units. Bloodcrushers are possibly a good recent example. £18 a pop in metal, now £32.50 for 3. That's a significant price drop right there. To use one of the oldest ones, Plastic Chaos Warriors. Before the original plastic ones, you were paying roughly £1.50 per warrior. Now, I can bag 12 for £18, which despite being 13 years, is exactly the same price. Chaos Knights and Cold One Knights are superb examples of money saving as well.

Battalions also save even more money. Has some stuff gone just plain up in price? Yup, no hiding it. Greatswords for example. Same price as metal which is a little bizarre, but a great kit nonetheless.

Elmodiddly wrote:You told me a couple of days ago that you own your own PLC company yet you say this! How can you possibly say that they have raised prices above inflation but miss completely the global economy and how it has affected everything around us?

No I have a private Ltd company. And I don't feel I missed anything. GW have been steadily inflating their prices for as long as I can remember regardless of whether the economy is up or down, GW is always up!. Lego also make plastic injection moulded kits. 18 odd years ago I remember the big Lego technics model was £99 in Argos. Now a similarly big model is £139 in Argos. About the same time; 3 tac squads of plastic marines cost £10. Now they cost £60.

Now I realise that Lego is a different company with different issues. But I can't help but find it odd that Lego can sell a model for only 40% more, when apparently the cost of fuel, and injection moulding etc... over the last 18 years means you need to raise prices 600% just to break even.

2006-2008 were the worst for GW on recent record with barely any profits made, despite your insistences that they rip people off.

Why is it you find it so hard to grasp that their might be a connection between 'ripping people off' and 'poor sales'?

They have a price structure and sell items accordingly. The fact that they continue to trade means that they got it right. Too expensive and no-one buys the items, too cheap and they don't make money and collapse.

You just said 2006-2008 they made barely any profit, how is that getting it right? If they were (for example) to go bust in 2012 would you still look back to now and say "they were getting it right" or would they maybe fall into the 'too expensive and no-one buys the items' group?

I don't think GW have ever been at risk of being 'too cheap'.

EDIT:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I think if they operated differently they could shift a greater volume of sales for a smaller price which could net them overall more profit and a larger more robust customer base. But for a long time now GW have stuck with the approach that every sign of losses or trouble is met with a price increase. They only have one strategy and they've got their heads down and are running with it.

^Thank you

You are the person who said what I wanted to say, but summed it up so much better.

To those who have seen the GW financial reports for this year, by far most of their costs are running their retail stores. In the US, those stores just aren't working well and money is being poured into them from other aspects of the business.

My gut feeling is that GW is seeing disproportionately favourable results from increasing their prices due to the collector and community elements of the hobby. Its basic economic theory that up to a certain point you can continue increasing prices but losing volume; but in GW's case, that point is skewed because:
1) Players feel like they have an investment in their army, and take a while to give it up
2) People play in a community, and one person leaving will negatively affect the experience of others.

But everyone gets to that tipping point at some stage, and further price hikes could see GW's player base begin dwindling at an exponential rate. Maybe not in the next year, but in 10 years GW may be a very different entity.


As to GW staff members in stores... at my store they are very pushy. Last time I went in there, this was the conversation:
"Hi. I'd like to buy some Scorched Brown please"
"Sure. Have you seen the new Stompa? Its amazing. You should buy at least one."
"I play Tau"
"You know you want it. You could play games against yourself. Its a great model."
"no"
"Ok. Heres your paint. Do you want me to add in AoBR with that? its great value!"
"... i'll get my paint somewhere else"
... so yeah, last time I went into GW the stompa just came out.

GW have stuck to the same business model for years. Latterly speaking, they have been hit by falling sales and the stock GW response is to raise prices; this has been shown time and again. Whenever they post financial results its always the same story; sales are down - profit remains at a similar level due to cost cutting and price hikes. This is not a sustainable business model and sooner or later, GW will find this out.

So one bad experience is the norm?

Perhaps I have a different perspective, and indeed a wider experience. The current strategy is one that works pretty nicely. Trim the fat from the company (lots of stores shedding staff, thus reducing the wage bill) and make the most of the money you are receiving, whilst refocussing the Stores to be recruitment centres. Now I know the natural counter to this is 'what about the 'vets'???'

Well, to be honest, what about them. Once you are experienced in the Hobby, and know how to game, build terrain, paint etc, exactly what more can GW offer you that is cost effective, and thus worth doing? The stores (for those lucky enough to have one nearby) offer Gaming Nights, free of charge, where you can use their tables. Sure some stores are distinctly pokey with only a couple of boards available, but if you are indeed a Veteran of the Hobby, why don't you have a Gaming Club, something GW is keen to support? This is what I personally don't get. An active Hobbyist is a happy Hobbyist. Our collections only become a genuine waste of money the second we stop using them. This is not GW's fault. This is a personal decision they are hard pressed to influence in anyway.

As for cutting prices. Say they knock 20% off prices tomorrow, right across the board. Their overheads don't go down with them right? So their overhead remains static, and all they are doing is eroding their profit margin. As a worked example (please note figures and percentages are sample and essentially plucked from my arse. But the Maths is sound!)

So to begin. I have a boxed set which I sell for £10, making me a profit (after all other costs) of £4. Now, I cut my price by the aforementioned 20% (a popular amount with the advocates of price cutting). So now it costs £8. My costs however remain the same, namely £6, leaving me £2 profit. So rather than a simple, theoretically temporary 20% profit slice, I'm 50% down. This is pretty major. This means to make the same profit margin as I was, I need to sell significantly more of these sets, yet my profit margin will never be the same thanks to the cut. So just to make the same money as I was (and if the price cut was because my company was in trouble, I'd need to match it!) I need to sell 100% more....which frankly is not going to happen from a 20% price cut.

And to continue...GW are tackling this by reducing overheads, hurrah, so any potential price cut would mean profits are less affected. BUT, consider you come in one week and buy your army at current prices. Then, the next week, they announce a big old price cut, be it 5, 10 or 20%, you are going to feel a little peeved that you weren't informed. But this inevitable. Notify your customers too early, and they won't buy until the price cut kicks in, affecting your sales. Don't tell them, and someone is getting the poopy end of the stick. So instead of cutting prices, you cut back your spending to maximise your profit margin, meaning future price increases can be less, both in terms of percentage and frequency.

CT GAMER wrote:I'm not so sure.

I see GW potentially entering an era of transformation in which they are testing the viability of mainstream mass market appeal:

Look at all the video game licenses in the works, movies, board games w/ FFG, etc.

I foresee an era in which they potentially become mainstream and look to appeal to the average kid in say the U.S. and elsewhere with things like the above ( and maybe a cartoon, hollywood animated feature, etc.) as opposed to simply the wargaming market which is rather niche.

If they figure out a viable way to make mainstream bucks with regular toys, simplified wargames, video games, merchandising etc. Then us war gamers won't eve be needed anymore, and certainly not us whiny, nostalgic veteran gamers that are never satisfied anyways...

Like the transformers cartoons did for hasbro.
You may be right

Also, GW perform a price cut of any percentage. Suddenly, the online and indy stores selling at a profit margin might need to match this to maintain viability, or risk going under. Yet, given some offering deep discounts, this could wipe out their profits, and GW are damned by the community for killing the Indy.

They literally cannot win!

I think that GW's biggest folly is taking their customer base for granted. This is evidenced by their management's fervent belief that their existing customer base is capable of withstanding pretty much any price increase and that the die-hards will never stop being customers. As we all know, it is this view that directs their business strategy.

GW has not only focused their efforts solely on new customers but has (by exclusion) simultaneously shut out and alienated the old customers that got them where they are today. They've thrown the old dogs a few bones in the last few years with the release of Apoc/Planetstrike - however, any attention that they pay their estabished customers is streaky at best. It is simple common sense that it is easier to retain customers than attract new ones - GW's view that their "followers" are lifers nonwithstanding - this failure to properly maintain their existing customer base while focusing on a turnover based business model may bite them in the arse in the future.

As CT noted, GW is steaming towards ever increasing market visibility and mainstream acceptance. Unfortunately, while they do this, it is business as usual in miniature land - outside of lisencing, profits aren't healthy despite price increases and lots of belt tightening in the retail sector of the company. The key problem I see here is that despite GW management's view that price is no object to their customers - the reality is there is a tipping point for all products - and they haven't reached that breaking point yet.

To me, the real danger is whether or they'll cross that "straw that breaks the camel's back" regarding what their customer base can tolerate before reaching the new promised land (mainstream acceptance).

In general, I have found the staff members at my local GW store to be really nice guys. We've had the same manager for a while, and his approach to stuff like beginners is to disregard the stupider aspects of store doctrine and do stuff that encourages players to actually improve at the game. The staff members that used to work there have all been cool, and always tended to hold the veterans who came into the store in high regard; it was (and still is) like a badge of honour to be placed in that category. Though thanks to recent cuts from Up Top, the store is now a one-man affair rather than the three-man job it used to be, I still generally feel welcome when I go in. Hell, I don't remember the last time I was "encouraged" to buy something; the manager much prefers to talk about tactics and modelling, and will only talk about products if you ask about them.
A much better approach, if you ask me, but then I guess staff members must vary.

Mr Mystery wrote:Also, GW perform a price cut of any percentage. Suddenly, the online and indy stores selling at a profit margin might need to match this to maintain viability, or risk going under. Yet, given some offering deep discounts, this could wipe out their profits, and GW are damned by the community for killing the Indy.They literally cannot win!

To me, as an veteran gamer, price isn't the problem - it is the preception of value. If one is paying a high price, the customer likes to think they are getting quality. In general, I think that the GW miniature lines have mostly improved in quality as have the base rulesets. However, to me, this perception ends at the army books. The quality control on these are streaky, and the codex/armybook release model suffers heavily every time there is a shift in design philosophy at the game studio. Considering that the core systems don't function without the armybooks and require ever huger quantities of models to play, to me, not getting these books right is inexcusable. This problem really lowers the value of their product line to me as a whole.

keezus wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Also, GW perform a price cut of any percentage. Suddenly, the online and indy stores selling at a profit margin might need to match this to maintain viability, or risk going under. Yet, given some offering deep discounts, this could wipe out their profits, and GW are damned by the community for killing the Indy.They literally cannot win!

To me, as an veteran gamer, price isn't the problem - it is the preception of value. If one is paying a high price, the customer likes to think they are getting quality. In general, I think that the GW miniature lines have mostly improved in quality as have the base rulesets. However, to me, this perception ends at the army books. The quality control on these are streaky, and the codex/armybook release model suffers heavily every time there is a shift in design philosophy at the game studio. Considering that the core systems don't function without the armybooks and require ever huger quantities of models to play, to me, not getting these books right is inexcusable. This problem really lowers the value of their product line to me as a whole.

I dunno about that, I do love some of the typos.
Here's my favourite from the Cities of Death expansion.
"Each man is a but spark in the darkness"
Immature? Yes I am.

keezus wrote:GW has not only focused their efforts solely on new customers but has (by exclusion) simultaneously shut out and alienated the old customers that got them where they are today

They're damned when they don't and....

They've thrown the old dogs a few bones in the last few years with the release of Apoc/Planetstrike - however, any attention that they pay their estabished customers is streaky at best.

Damned when they do!! They simply cannot win no matter which way they fall.

To me, the real danger is whether or they'll cross that "straw that breaks the camel's back" regarding what their customer base can tolerate before reaching the new promised land (mainstream acceptance).

I think the danger is selective memory from the customers. It is the perception of value, I agree, but when we're comparing constantly the value of a pack of SM from 10 years ago to today it is us who have the problem because we are not changing with the times;

"I remember when I was a nipper we could go to the cinema, have some fish and chips (fries) on the way back and get the last bus home and still have change from a groat"

keezus wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Also, GW perform a price cut of any percentage. Suddenly, the online and indy stores selling at a profit margin might need to match this to maintain viability, or risk going under. Yet, given some offering deep discounts, this could wipe out their profits, and GW are damned by the community for killing the Indy.They literally cannot win!

To me, as an veteran gamer, price isn't the problem - it is the preception of value. If one is paying a high price, the customer likes to think they are getting quality. In general, I think that the GW miniature lines have mostly improved in quality as have the base rulesets. However, to me, this perception ends at the army books. The quality control on these are streaky, and the codex/armybook release model suffers heavily every time there is a shift in design philosophy at the game studio. Considering that the core systems don't function without the armybooks and require ever huger quantities of models to play, to me, not getting these books right is inexcusable. This problem really lowers the value of their product line to me as a whole.

And therein lies the problem. A great many beefs with GW are purely subjective. Some dislike a rule, or rulebook, some dislike a model, or a whole range. Everyone seems to have a relatively unique view and take, thus making it impossible for GW to please everyone, and yet that does not invalidate peoples concerns/complaints.

But sadly all too often we see people presenting their opinion as cast iron fact.

@Elmodiddly: Damn straight I'm damning them when they do. Just because they offer up something doesn't mean that the offer is a good 'un.

In my opinion, Apoc, while a worthy idea is flawed in execution. The system is inherently biased whereupon Titan class models are generally overpowered and infantry mobs are largely ineffective as they die en-masse to the huge Apoc-blast template. Many formations are poorly designed with dubious benefits and a few of the strategems are so powerful that taking something different would be disadvantageous.

There's also the problem that Apoc/Planetstrike are one shot releases that function much like their specialist games in that they don't receive ongoing support... Planetstrike in particular got very little fanfare before riding off into the sunset. We got the great bastion kits, but you hear very little about Planetstrike games actually being played. (There's also Planetary Empires... which turned into nothing even faster than Planetstrike...)

I'll give credit when credit is due - the new kits that came out of the expansions are generally brilliant - I bought the Shadowsword, terrible game performer that it is - because it looked cool. However, it is my opinionthat while Apoc was marginally successful at raising some temporary interest - and as a long term offering to vets, it is not really much of an offering. Planetstrike and Planetary Empires are fails IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Mystery wrote:And therein lies the problem. A great many beefs with GW are purely subjective. Some dislike a rule, or rulebook, some dislike a model, or a whole range. Everyone seems to have a relatively unique view and take, thus making it impossible for GW to please everyone, and yet that does not invalidate peoples concerns/complaints.

But sadly all too often we see people presenting their opinion as cast iron fact.

The only aspect that is really quantifiable is the price increases.

Apocalypse is awesome. What support does it need? "Throw your whole collection on the table and play the game" seemed to be the idea behind it.

Maybe it's the fact that it requires a bit of imagination and being a good sport that turns the more cranky players off? I liked the Planetstrike buildings, and I don't even play Planetstrike. They're just great for Terrain.

Monster Rain wrote:Apocalypse is awesome. What support does it need? "Throw your whole collection on the table and play the game" seemed to be the idea behind it.

Maybe it's the fact that it requires a bit of imagination and being a good sport that turns the more cranky players off? I liked the Planetstrike buildings, and I don't even play Planetstrike. They're just great for Terrain.

I agree 1000%.. Apoc is the most fun Ive been having with 40k since it debuted. It requires you to modify the rules a bit, come up with new ways to play and COMMIT TO HAVING FUN over all else.. Ive seen so many apoc games be ruined due to ego, arguing and bad planning

@Keezus, What I am getting at is that they cannot win and when they do get something out it's picked to pieces. Thos who do like aren't going to post, in general, to say that they fully support it.
GW do care, they do try, hence the releases mentioned above. Having said that there are some who enjoyed Planetstrike, which you quote as proof that they don't think enough yet people, such as Kirasu and Monster Rain, thoroughly enjoy it.

Things take a long time to come to fruition but people are selective in their recollections and come to opinions based upon their emotions rather than what is fact.

@Elmodiddly: I think you mean Apoc

As for selective recolletions - sure - it takes an objective mind to be able to see the forest for the trees. However, your point that the negative posters are making comments based on their emotions is proof enough that GW is doing something to piss off their customer base. Giving them a free pass by citing the universal truth that they can't please everyone isn't going to improve the situation.

@Kirasu: I agree with all your points. APOC has the potential to be awesome. I agree double-plus-good that it takes huge amounts of planning, and failure to do so results in a poor experience for the participants. Your comment that it required rules tweaks to fix it is somewhat supportive of my assertion that while it is a great concept, a bit more forethought should have been put into Apoc as a format.

Trouble is, GW have literally hundreds of thousands of customers. Somebody somewhere is going to get peeved, there is literally nowt they can do about it!

Apoc is a good example. Fundamentally, it's only ever going to be an occasion expansion. Planetstrike likewise, not every game you'll want to play will be Planetstrike. Planetstrike to me offers very welcome variety, and some gorgeous terrain pieces, whilst also making it feasible to buy more Heavy Support/Elites than I can normally field! Cities of Death, ditto. If anything, I don't think they made enough of Battle Missions, an awesome expansion I can use more often than the other three, arguably put together! Anything that offers variety is good to me. And it's about your level of personal investment in your hobby. Some just want easy pick up games, which is great if that's your thing. Me, I love a good campaign, and can make good use of the above expansions to add depth and variety. The very nature of these expansions mean they aren't for everyone, or even everytime, but for the sake of the price of the book, I get more out my army, which to me is a good thing!

Elmodiddly wrote:Some of you know me by now, I try to sit on the straight thinking fence. I do fall off occasionally.

I don’t agree with some of the comments about GW being accused of raking in huge profits and keeping things expensive to shaft us, the customer.

GW last year made £7.5 million. Which, for a global company, is very poor by anyone’s standard.

It's very poor because that figure is totally incorrect. According to their 2009 End of Year reports they posted:

Revenue £125.7m,(a huge increase over their 2008 report of £110.3m)

So yes, GW does price gouge, and they make enormous markup profits on their products.

Sometimes I wish you could get a little more attention in GW when you are actually purchasing something. I dont hang out at the GW. Personally i think its full of a bunch of nerdy young kids and old creepy men most of the time. When ever i go into GW i buy a battle force or a few boxes and leave.

1. It makes me mad they are too busy demoing a game to some little kids while i have questions and am going to drop $100-200 a visit.

2.It really really makes me upset when i come in and buy a fair amount of stuff, usually 3-5 boxes and then they try to up sell you. So you guys are getting a hundred plus from me today and you are trying to push more sales on me? No thanks i dont need primer... or a brush.. or any paints.

hemingway wrote:It's very poor because that figure is totally incorrect. According to their 2009 End of Year reports they posted:

Wow, you can fail, and then you can FAIL.

If you're going to link something, take three seconds to read it first, and preferably farther than the first line of the page.

hemingway wrote:It's very poor because that figure is totally incorrect. According to their 2009 End of Year reports they posted:

Revenue £125.7m,(a huge increase over their 2008 report of £110.3m)

Revenue is all monies coming in. Afer monies going out, PROFIT is 7.5M, which again (consideirng that 1.7M is royalties) - is not so good.

hemingway wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:Some of you know me by now, I try to sit on the straight thinking fence. I do fall off occasionally.

I don’t agree with some of the comments about GW being accused of raking in huge profits and keeping things expensive to shaft us, the customer.

GW last year made £7.5 million. Which, for a global company, is very poor by anyone’s standard.

It's very poor because that figure is totally incorrect. According to their 2009 End of Year reports they posted:

Revenue £125.7m,(a huge increase over their 2008 report of £110.3m)

So yes, GW does price gouge, and they make enormous markup profits on their products.

Epic fail me old mukka. £7.5 million profit. Hardly a large markup is it?

kaidsin wrote:Sometimes I wish you could get a little more attention in GW when you are actually purchasing something. I dont hang out at the GW. Personally i think its full of a bunch of nerdy young kids and old creepy men most of the time. When ever i go into GW i buy a battle force or a few boxes and leave.

1. It makes me mad they are too busy demoing a game to some little kids while i have questions and am going to drop $100-200 a visit.

2.It really really makes me upset when i come in and buy a fair amount of stuff, usually 3-5 boxes and then they try to up sell you. So you guys are getting a hundred plus from me today and you are trying to push more sales on me? No thanks i dont need primer... or a brush.. or any paints.

That is an employees job. Being an experienced Hobbyist, you know what you want. Intro Gaming is critical to the Hobby. That is how we get new blood into the Hobby, and sort out future opponents for yourself. Now, if they totally ignore you then fair enough, it's part of their job to at least acknowledge everyone who enters the store, ranging from a friendly hello, to striking up a conversation about your Hobby.

But then you go on to say they shouldn't try to upsell you. Honestly, how many times have you made your purchases, got home and found you are out of glue? Or undercoat? Or the brush you need to use didn't get a proper cleaning and could do with replacing? It's courtesy. You are perfectly entitled to say no to such things. Me, I tend to lose track of what glue is where, and how much of each I have, so when buying plastic, I could do with Poly Cement, and metal, Superglue. Even if I get home and find I didn't need it, it remains a material I will use in the future.

And as for the amount, so what? The kid being intro'd could be about to start out in the Hobby. That means a starter game, paints, clippers, glues, brushes, further models, codecies etc. Do you really think that your needs outweigh a total NooB, someone who doesn't know a Defiler from a Dark Elf? It seems on one hand, you are demanding special attention, and then decrying a good staff members attempts to make sure you have everything necessary to assemble and paint your purchases. Which is it to be? You can essentially have one or the other, or realise that you personally (and this does indeed go for all us) are NOT the be all and end all when it comes to a store. You have to understand that new blood is indeed everything. They need the most help, us hoary old hands need it less so.

During these threads there is a common theme; lots and lots of complaining about things that are not really issues.

There are people who feel that they are under pressure when browsing, people who feel as if they're pushed into buying when the salesperson is asking if they need supplies, you still have the choice of two answers to give.
There are people who think they are being ignored when, in all reality, you're an adult and can ask for help when required but at the same time there are those who feel they are being pestered when the sales person asks if they can help.

No matter which way round it goes;

1. give the customer time to make their own damned mind up = being ignored
2. ask the customer if they need help = being pushy
3. ask the customer if they need anything else (in their own experience people do forget stuff and are back 10 minutes later) = being pushy

They, quite simply, cannot win! No matter what they do, they are wrong.

Look at the threads; What is the best experience at your local GW or FLGS and What's the worst experience. To date 3 pages of best experience but a whopping 18 pages of worst! It isn't because they are so bad (if they were they would be bankrupt) but rather the thing we do best is moaning and nothing spread better than a bit of gossip.

You never, ever, hear of someone saying "and I went in the store and the chap said "hello can I help you?", it was really nice service" instead you're more likely to say "and this arse pestered me to buy stuff"

I can't tell you how many times I've been asked "Do you need paint? Primer?" and I had actually forgotten to pick it up.

It's all part of going to a store, isn't it? I think a lot of the problem is that some people might not get out much, or have some kind of social anxiety that makes them not want to tell the store employees "No Thank You."

+1 Brother, +1.

Monster Rain wrote:I can't tell you how many times I've been asked "Do you need paint? Primer?" and I had actually forgotten to pick it up.

It's all part of going to a store, isn't it? I think a lot of the problem is that some people might not get out much, or have some kind of social anxiety that makes them not want to tell the store employees "No Thank You."

Was it this board that we had someone complaining about the 'hello Nazis' and that if someone was going to try and talk to him they'd better be: A: Attractive, B: Intelligent, or C: Important or D: Interesting or else he'd be pissed at them wasting his time (apparently, being a store employee automatically eliminated you from all of those)?

Bookwrack wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I can't tell you how many times I've been asked "Do you need paint? Primer?" and I had actually forgotten to pick it up.

It's all part of going to a store, isn't it? I think a lot of the problem is that some people might not get out much, or have some kind of social anxiety that makes them not want to tell the store employees "No Thank You."

Was it this board that we had someone complaining about the 'hello Nazis' and that if someone was going to try and talk to him they'd better be: A: Attractive, B: Intelligent, or C: Important or D: Interesting or else he'd be pissed at them wasting his time (apparently, being a store employee automatically eliminated you from all of those)?

That could have been any neckbeard on any wargaming site. Needle in a haystack, bro.

Hey, pricks are everywhere. You have to remember, the poor sods being derided are just doing their job. Don't like it, don't go in there. Simple as.

I'm sure any visitor to a GW outlet has been serenaded by (or overheard) the following speech:

Customer enters
1. Hi, welcome to Games Workshop... can I help you find anything today?
2. Are you familiar with our two main game products?
if yes
3. Oh, so what army do you play?
4. Have you seen **insert new release** for **army**. or Are you running **insert random model here**
5. Free-form follow up as to why that is good - Sometimes, unfortunately, the staffer will be a bit too forceful, ignoring the customer's view or in some cases, straight out contradicting the customer's stated play style or tactical choices.
if no
3. Well, our two main products are Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. They're table top minature games sort of like CHESS or RISK (ed. I find this hillarious, because in reality, Fantasy and 40k are nothing like CHESS or RISK)
if customer is still in store and didn't answer with a "Oh, that's nice, thanks" prior to exiting...
4. Have you seen our starter kits? They contain all the miniatures you see here... you assemble and paint them yourself...
etc. etc. etc.

While there is nothing wrong with the content of this predetermined speech, as with all things preset, it is better used as a guideline, I think adhering too closely to any fixed method is problematic... especially when some staffers zone out the customer's response and moves onto the next part of the company spiel. You can usually spot the newness of a staffer by how closely they adhere to this formula.

I think if some people got out more they'd realize that most stores have employees that interact with you and try to sell you things.

It's not restricted to GW. Hell, the poor guy is probably just happy to have someone in the store judging by their profits in the link above!

Monster Rain wrote:I think if some people got out more they'd realize that most stores have employees that interact with you and try to sell you things.

It's not restricted to GW. Hell, the poor guy is probably just happy to have someone in the store judging by their profits in the link above!

Heh - its not that they try and sell you things... its that they act like robots trying to sell you things. The horrible part is that it doesn't matter which GW I go to... I've been to ones in a half dozen different cities across Canada and the US, and the speech is pretty much the same!

-edit- I've noticed this varies with the staffer's seniority... the longer serving staffers are more likely to be able of conversation independent of "the speech". This is offset by the fact that GW goes through staffers like crazy. Maybe now that they're transitioning to 1 man stores, there will be better staff retention and this robo-speech will be a thing of the past!

Elmodiddly wrote:

Epic fail me old mukka.

yep. i won't be running my mouth about finance again any time soon. suffice it to say i have enough win in my life to not let an internet fail take the wind out of my sails =D

AAAAAAAAAA fudge it. I cant be bothered to read all this. Just go to ebay or ebid or the friggin carboot. Got a nice complet set of heroquest at the carboot for a couple of squid. AND smack cakes has a point about white dwarf being only like a fiver but being just as long as a fething codex

I have to say... I haven't had any problem with guys in the store trying to a hard sell.

Asking me if I need help, If I'm okay for primer, and telling me about what they have in store... I just call that good service.

People who do claim they have had a 'hard sell' put on them in GW... Just how hard was it really? Was it as bad as those clipboard guys on the street, who want you to set up a direct debit to a charity? The ones who you practically have to beat to get them to back off...

I don't think I've ever had any sales pitch in GW that a couple of polite 'no thank you's wouldn't put a stop to.

Sorry bout the little outburst of pseudo-swearing there.

i went to a GW at state college and the first thing i asked the red shirt was if he liked Wu-Tang Clan. he said he didnt, and it was downhill from there.

@Mr Mystery
Bah, i dont really have that problem of my gule being gone or such, plus i dont but that stuff from there. Minis only. But i do get their number one concern is new players, but its usally stupid events and i get almost no recognition; even when i have questions i may have to pry them from there games.

That means a starter game, paints, clippers, glues, brushes, further models, codecies etc.

Do people really buy these things from GW? so over priced compared to other hobby stores. Do people pay for the books? I always wondered how many people have since you can easily torrent all of the 5th edition stuff. As well as all supplements as battle missions n such.

kaidsin wrote:@Mr Mystery
Bah, i dont really have that problem of my gule being gone or such, plus i dont but that stuff from there. Minis only. But i do get their number one concern is new players, but its usally stupid events and i get almost no recognition; even when i have questions i may have to pry them from there games.

That means a starter game, paints, clippers, glues, brushes, further models, codecies etc.

Do people really buy these things from GW? so over priced compared to other hobby stores. Do people pay for the books? I always wondered how many people have since you can easily torrent all of the 5th edition stuff. As well as all supplements as battle missions n such.

Yeah, those of us who aren't thieves do buy the books.

Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

That made me chuckle.

hemingway wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:

Epic fail me old mukka.

yep. i won't be running my mouth about finance again any time soon. suffice it to say i have enough win in my life to not let an internet fail take the wind out of my sails =D

Lol, nice recovery, the judges award ten points across the board.

hemingway wrote:yep. i won't be running my mouth about finance again any time soon. suffice it to say i have enough win in my life to not let an internet fail take the wind out of my sails =D

Fair enough.

@Keezus, you've just proved the point, no matter what they do, you'll find fault. If you say "Yes" they then ask if you know X is out or Y has changed. Not everyone buys White Dwarf or goes onto GW t'interweb. If you say "No" you deride them for making easy comparisons that noobs, such as what you have just inferred you are by saying "No", would understand.

You are being unfair, there is no issue, only what you consciously choose to perceive and then taking umbridge. They do stick to a formula, only because it works worldwide, in any shop, in any situation.

I went into a bike shop at the start of the summer, looking for a new bike. The chap said have you got a bike at the moment "Yes a ZZR110", chap instantly knows that I ride and suspects what sort of thing I am looking for. He then asks what sort I am looking for, I tell him, he then tells me what equivalents he has and what new bikes are there which I might not be aware of. Just like in your scenario. It is his job.
If I were to say "no", he would ask if I have a licence and then advise from there what bikes are learner legal or restricted BHP. Just like in your scenario because it is his job.

Like I said; damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Iv'e had the same experience at my old GW store here in AZ. It's no longer there. They was a guy who wanted to get into 40k. The employee kept telling him "You should buy the Battle for Macragge set!" guy said "I don't want those guys, I want these guys" *he points to the IG section.* *the employee pulls the IG battleforce out.* "You to get this and this" *pulls out the IG codex* guy says "but i dont want that much and dont have that much money, i only want something small to start with, and not the books now. I only want to build them" employee goes quiet with a dumb look on his face like he has never heard that line before.

It was almost hard to ignore the conversation because the store was small and employee was talking really loud. Then the employee walks away and whispers to his fellow employee friends while he points at the guy. The employees were such pricks. The prices were expensive all the way up to the normal retail price with pushy service. No wonder it closed down. At the most 4 people went just to look around. The employees were pricks and would walk up to the looking person and say it a pushy loud mouthed a$$h*le kinda way. "CAN I HELP YOU WITH ANY THING??" customer stayed quiet and slowly walks out of store. There was only one employee there who seemed to enjoyed that was working at a GW store and was so always eager to help. he now work at a non-gw store. It seems that only the non-gw have great customer service and dont mind it you just come to look around.

sorry too many mistakes in my writing. time for bed for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PZxuv6lO7Y

studderingdave wrote:i went to a GW at state college and the first thing i asked the red shirt was if he liked Wu-Tang Clan. he said he didnt, and it was downhill from there.

What the feth is Wu-Tang Clan?

kaidsin wrote:@Mr Mystery
Bah, i dont really have that problem of my gule being gone or such, plus i dont but that stuff from there. Minis only. But i do get their number one concern is new players, but its usally stupid events and i get almost no recognition; even when i have questions i may have to pry them from there games.

That means a starter game, paints, clippers, glues, brushes, further models, codecies etc.

Do people really buy these things from GW? so over priced compared to other hobby stores. Do people pay for the books? I always wondered how many people have since you can easily torrent all of the 5th edition stuff. As well as all supplements as battle missions n such.

If the Staffer isn't peeling off from the game to help you, that is indeed poor customer service. Sometimes it is no doubt hard. They might be helping someone work out a complicated turn, or showing them how their new unit works.

The vast majority of their customers do indeed buy the branded products, mainly due to the sheer convenience. If you can get it cheaper elsewhere, then no harm done. But equally, no harm done in asking if you need some. Whether you are buying it from them or not, a memory jog like that will ensure you pick some up one way or the other.

And as for 'torrenting' the books...see what Monster Rain wrote. Not everyone in this life demands something for nothing you know.

terribletrygon wrote:What the feth is Wu-Tang Clan?

Waaait....., Seriously?

I disagree. They've been like that for awhile.

Just tolerate it for now. I'm sure the employees will just get tired of talking to everyone and they'll stop.

I've experienced annoyance. It's not anyone in the stores fault really. It is not coming from them. They are obviously surveying you and its aweful. I'm at the wall looking through blisters and I get the same what army do you play after ive already been asked if I needed help. I cant even concentrate on what I came in for. We actually go up sometimes just so we can laugh our asses off . Ive actually turned the questions around so they would get creeped out like i am. GW stop being stupid learn some human nature. So weird.

studderingdave wrote:

terribletrygon wrote:What the feth is Wu-Tang Clan?

Wow, Seriously?

You better believe it son.

One of the better Hip Hop collectives from the 90's. I was on a horrendous Wu kick that weekend and the GW worker totally wasnt feeling it, so the encounter went sour from the get go.

studderingdave wrote:One of the better Hip Hop collectives from the 90's. I was on a horrendous Wu kick that weekend and the GW worker totally wasnt feeling it, so the encounter went sour from the get go.

I'll YouTube them and listen up.

terribletrygon wrote:

studderingdave wrote:

terribletrygon wrote:What the feth is Wu-Tang Clan?

Wow, Seriously?

You better believe it son.

I've never heard of them either, google says they are some hip-hop group apparently.

Alright, I had a listen. They were awful. Just awful. Burn all your Wu-Tango and listen to Iron Maiden forever. They created music you know.


Anyways; back on topic....


Most I've ever got from GW staff is primer reminders and the occasional 'You okay?'. Whenever I say I'm good, they have always left me alone.

Wu-tang Clan? Aren't they a terrorist orgainzation?

I do think that the prices are getting kind-of ridiculous... Seriously, 25$ for 10 guardsmen or 11 orks (which they only give you 10 basses.... -_-) Look how 'swarmy' swarm armies are becoming?
For the points-to-$$ value, its cheaper for me to just get tons of vehicles (and that is not how I play)
Sure, the modelers, artists, and all those other people need compensation for their time, but I think that I'ts getting to the point where small armies are becoming mainstream. This completely contradicts GW's 'ooh look apocalypse, you only need 3 super-heavies and a few titans to play!'
Ranting done, nuff said...

I think 25 bucks is fine for 10 models.
If you play marines, you're paying 37 for the same number. 25 is very reasonable for me.

One thing you have to remember, these guys want to expand and to make money. How do you do that when the thing you make last forever? How many of you still have your old models from years and years ago? 10 Guards men for $25 bucks....

$2.50 for a guardsman you ar gonna play with for years to come... or a Monster Energy drink you are pee'ing out in an hour?

How many hours do you play a year? Lest say you play twice a month at about 3 to 4 hours per game....

That is... let me see (takes off shoes) 3 carry the 4, multiply by 20 subtract 8.... divide by the square root of Q.... ummm....

72 - 94 hours of gaming, which we could all agree is very very low, most of us play in the 100 to 50 hours worth. but lets stick with the 72 hours.

Now divide that $2.50 per 72. that is 3 cents per hour.

even if you had 100 guys i your army that would be 3 dollars an hour. For something we LOVE!

Hello?!?!

You make the call.

Yes but since 10 cadians in the U.K are now £15 and I remember when I cam into the hobby that it was 20 for £18.
Thats why we complain about the price.

Plus points wise, a guardsman is 5pts... so $2.50 ($25 for 50pts...) is a little too much when I could just buy a LRBT for $50 and get at least 170pts out of it... But that's even a bit OP...
Also, I've dabbled in SW and for just $100 you can have a 1500 pt force EASY, but for IG you would have to spend about $250-$300... This is getting WAY off topic of the Original Post, so I'm just gonna say that GW products, be them very detailed, are a bit overpriced...

Waagh!Balzsmasha! wrote:I've experienced annoyance. It's not anyone in the stores fault really. It is not coming from them. They are obviously surveying you and its aweful. I'm at the wall looking through blisters and I get the same what army do you play after ive already been asked if I needed help. I cant even concentrate on what I came in for. We actually go up sometimes just so we can laugh our asses off . Ive actually turned the questions around so they would get creeped out like i am. GW stop being stupid learn some human nature. So weird.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard that they keep talking to you and following you around to prevent shoplifting w/o being too creepy by just following you around. Blisters are tiny, and easy to steal. Shoplifting is rampant in GW and independent stores because of this.

The GW in my city is fine. I dont go there to play as we have a clubroom but when i need paint or something its nice to buy there.

I just want to know, for the people who are saying GW minis are overpriced, can they point me to equivalent quality plastic unpainted minis from another company for less? I've looked, I have found resin, I have found metal, but not the plastic. And I've found a lot of companies that charge more per mini.

SmackCakes wrote:I said 'IF'... I don't need to be a management accountant to know that a company with with no new customers and no old customers, has no customers. You can figure that out yourself.

No, but you do need to have access to GW's pricing models to know their expected customer levels at differing price points. You aren't, so you're just guessing that GW is doing it wrong.

I'm not either, so I won't comment on if GW is pricing correctly or not, but I'm happy to think they probably know a little more about their pricing than some guys on the internet.

Games Workshop is not above making mistakes or becoming out of touch with their customers. It's something all businesses a susceptible to.

No, they're not. People and companies do make mistakes, often big ones. But the point remains that you simply do not have the information needed to know if GW is pricing correctly or not. You can't speculate that something is a mistake because other companies have made mistakes and you think the price is too high.

I did not at any time declare they were doomed.

Wings of Light in the OP said GW were dooming themselves. I'm guessing you agree that comment was silly?

But I really don't think they are that smart. All they've done is taken something that sold for 50p 25 years ago, and slowly hiked it up to £12... And amazingly got away with it too (despite all the customers they lost on the way). So far so good, I'm sure all the real sales managers at GW must think they're geniuses. But you can't just keep raising prices above inflation indefinitely and not expect it to effect sales... Everyone has their limit.

If you honestly believe GW's core business for 25 years has been taking the same old stuff and jacking up the price then you'd be right... but that'd be a particularly poor understanding of what GW's been trying to do. GW has set about giving themselves a mainstreet presence in an industry defined by obscure products sold in smelly basement level shops in the strange part of town. Now, that may be a bad idea, that ultimately all those mainstreet stores might create more overhead than the stores could ever produce... but good idea or bad it is a significantly greater undertaking than just selling the same stuff and increasing the price every once in a while.

Well that's not true, GW print White Dwarf every month, and they don't charge £17.50 for it. So I put it to you that GW can in fact prints a 15+ page document and sell it for less than 17.50.

What? Why have you assumed that a codex costs £17.50 because that's somewhere near what it costs to make it. I don't know why you've made that assumption. A codex doesn't cost anywhere near £17.50 to make. The cost of publication at 15 pages is not significantly different to the cost of a publication at 60 pages, and both are a fairly small relative to the retail price.

One thing I think a lot of people fail to understand is that very little of GW's costs are variable costs related to production. What really costs money is all those mainstreet stores.


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SmackCakes wrote:No I have a private Ltd company. And I don't feel I missed anything. GW have been steadily inflating their prices for as long as I can remember regardless of whether the economy is up or down, GW is always up!. Lego also make plastic injection moulded kits. 18 odd years ago I remember the big Lego technics model was £99 in Argos. Now a similarly big model is £139 in Argos. About the same time; 3 tac squads of plastic marines cost £10. Now they cost £60.

Now I realise that Lego is a different company with different issues. But I can't help but find it odd that Lego can sell a model for only 40% more, when apparently the cost of fuel, and injection moulding etc... over the last 18 years means you need to raise prices 600% just to break even.

Note that you point out the Lego kit is in Argos. Because Lego are selling a product with a sufficiently broad customer base that they can put their goods into a major retailer. GW is not, and so operates a totally different business model.

Is your privately ltd company in retail?


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keezus wrote:To me, as an veteran gamer, price isn't the problem - it is the preception of value. If one is paying a high price, the customer likes to think they are getting quality. In general, I think that the GW miniature lines have mostly improved in quality as have the base rulesets. However, to me, this perception ends at the army books. The quality control on these are streaky, and the codex/armybook release model suffers heavily every time there is a shift in design philosophy at the game studio. Considering that the core systems don't function without the armybooks and require ever huger quantities of models to play, to me, not getting these books right is inexcusable. This problem really lowers the value of their product line to me as a whole.

Yeah, this would be my complaint as well. I would criticise the miniature ranges... not the quality of individual pieces which are generally excellent, but the number of units that haven't been updated for a decade. A quality price for a quality product is fine, but they do need to be held to that standard of quality.

I would agree, somewhat, on the quality of the rules, they could stand to be considerably improved, but I'm hesitant to agree entirely because the rules have improved markedly. I'd probably just extend my complaint above... too many army books have gone too long without being updated.


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hemingway wrote:It's very poor because that figure is totally incorrect. According to their 2009 End of Year reports they posted:

Revenue £125.7m,(a huge increase over their 2008 report of £110.3m)

So yes, GW does price gouge, and they make enormous markup profits on their products.

Actual sales only rose £3.6m from 2008 to 2009, the greater sales growth was due to significant shift in the Euro and USD. This is spelled out on pages 1 and 10.


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hemingway wrote:yep. i won't be running my mouth about finance again any time soon. suffice it to say i have enough win in my life to not let an internet fail take the wind out of my sails =D

Well said, brother.

Gotta remember what contributes to GW's overheads.

They generally release a few plastic kits every month. The molds can cost a fair bit. I was told (dunno how accurate) that the baneblade kit was a 3 piece mold and was somewhere in the range of $800k AUD.

The new daemon prince only came out recently because someone when it was originally slated to be out - back when the WoC army book was redone, someone or something dropped the mold and it broke. (Wasn't it late 08-09?)

Then also for places like Aus; unlike the US or EU where there exists a production facility, or cheap transport of goods between members (respectively) Aus and many other countries have to pay exorbitant shipping costs. Afaik GW in Aus receive all the sprues unboxed and in massive palletes, and boxes made in Aus and then box them at their warehouse here. Solely to reduce overheads that are incurred from shipping.

Sile wrote:Then also for places like Aus; unlike the US or EU where there exists a production facility, or cheap transport of goods between members (respectively) Aus and many other countries have to pay exorbitant shipping costs. Afaik GW in Aus receive all the sprues unboxed and in massive palletes, and boxes made in Aus and then box them at their warehouse here. Solely to reduce overheads that are incurred from shipping.

This cost of shipping is exaggerated (which should be obvious since UK retailers can send a small package of stuff to Australia and still have it be significantly cheaper than buying it locally). Seafreight rates have been incredibly low for the last few years. If they shipped stuff boxed then a battleforce box would cost approx £0.18 = AUD0.31 to transport. If they're shipping sprues then it'll be dramatically lower. (spent about 10years negotiating seafreight contracts)

ETA, just looked up your tariff schedules - duty is 5% (of the cost price, not the sales price) and GST is 10% (of sales price).

The cost of shipping it within the country will be considerable but even with that it comes nowhere near justifying the 50% extra that you guys get charged.

I remember the free painting session they gave me when i first started (dont know if they still do that)
It Was a Lizzard man that i still have on my desk to remind me of the day i found GW.

Its very tuff these days for GW, with the Economy as it is people are buying less of their hobby's because the average price of living has gone up, which is why GW need's to raise the prices to keep themselves from losing as much.
For the vets its no problem but for the noobies its hard to get started and keep going.

Like some said, it depends on where you go, I suppose.
I mean, my local there is one guy that always tries to force you stuff, but there's another one who doesn't, but always tries to help (he showed me how to play fantasy and didn't suggest anything I might need).

Back where my Girlfriend lives, they asked if I needed anything, I told him politely no, and they said okay, but kept checking to see if I was OK and generally asked questions about what I collected and if I wanted a game.
During the night it got better, especially one of the Vets nights - they were playing matchmaker and didn't try to sell one person anything.

A very fair point Jerico. Personally I think the price of miniatures should keep going up and up and up until my massive army of old school miniatures is worth a cool Million. But I'm just being selfish - Its like first time homeowners verses people high on the property ladder in a way. But yeah

Sile wrote:Gotta remember what contributes to GW's overheads.

They generally release a few plastic kits every month. The molds can cost a fair bit. I was told (dunno how accurate) that the baneblade kit was a 3 piece mold and was somewhere in the range of $800k AUD.

Really? I don't know man, I've not worked in plastics manufacture or anything but that sure does seem like a lot. Considering the low cost of other moulded plastics it seems a little off to me.

Then also for places like Aus; unlike the US or EU where there exists a production facility, or cheap transport of goods between members (respectively) Aus and many other countries have to pay exorbitant shipping costs. Afaik GW in Aus receive all the sprues unboxed and in massive palletes, and boxes made in Aus and then box them at their warehouse here. Solely to reduce overheads that are incurred from shipping.

As Scott-S6 pointed out, shipping is pretty cheap, and a very small part of the cost of production. It's really all in those retail stores.


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Scott-S6 wrote:Is there a really high import duty being imposed? That's the only way I can the prices you guys get making sense.

The dollar cost per square foot of retail space is really high here.

sebster wrote:

Sile wrote:Gotta remember what contributes to GW's overheads.

They generally release a few plastic kits every month. The molds can cost a fair bit. I was told (dunno how accurate) that the baneblade kit was a 3 piece mold and was somewhere in the range of $800k AUD.

Really? I don't know man, I've not worked in plastics manufacture or anything but that sure does seem like a lot. Considering the low cost of other moulded plastics it seems a little off to me.

Then also for places like Aus; unlike the US or EU where there exists a production facility, or cheap transport of goods between members (respectively) Aus and many other countries have to pay exorbitant shipping costs. Afaik GW in Aus receive all the sprues unboxed and in massive palletes, and boxes made in Aus and then box them at their warehouse here. Solely to reduce overheads that are incurred from shipping.

As Scott-S6 pointed out, shipping is pretty cheap, and a very small part of the cost of production. It's really all in those retail stores.


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Scott-S6 wrote:Is there a really high import duty being imposed? That's the only way I can the prices you guys get making sense.

The dollar cost per square foot of retail space is really high here.

Cheap one of moulds for injection on things like letter plates are a few grand from what I found on Google. So if the mould is expected to be producing for x runs over y years at the detail required for models it wouldn't surprise me that realistically the moulds are 10k+. I've just been told that the baneblade mould was some super intricate 3 piece, and thus worth a ton - like I said, I don't know how accurate.

As for shipping; it was the reason I labelled it as; I know when you mail something to Aus from an international location it costs a bucket; even by ship, but shipping =/= mail.

Jericho wrote:I remember the free painting session they gave me when i first started (dont know if they still do that)
It Was a Lizzard man that i still have on my desk to remind me of the day i found GW.

Its very tuff these days for GW, with the Economy as it is people are buying less of their hobby's because the average price of living has gone up, which is why GW need's to raise the prices to keep themselves from losing as much.
For the vets its no problem but for the noobies its hard to get started and keep going.

Oddly, Hobbies tend to do well in a recession, as people see the better return on investment. It's other Luxuries (big old Tellies, kick ass Stereos etc) that suffer. It would appear in the minds of the public, there are luxury goods, and then there is stuff you're going to make good use of. Hobbies fall into the latter.

I do agree - Today I paid £15 for some flaggelents... I dont play empire.

Well to me thats 5 priests for SoB, a 'Captured' Chaos Sorcorer (using the stocks dude and a headswap etc) and possibly an inquisitor and ecclisarchy dudes. Now I will spend A few hours converting each of them, let alone painting them.

Today I also went to the cinema paying £10 for a ticket and some overpriced sweets that lasted 1.5 hours... do the maths..

Edit : I was also asked TWICE about plastic glue... grrr

Phototoxin wrote:I do agree - Today I paid £15 for some flaggelents... I dont play empire.

Well to me thats 5 priests for SoB, a 'Captured' Chaos Sorcorer (using the stocks dude and a headswap etc) and possibly an inquisitor and ecclisarchy dudes. Now I will spend A few hours converting each of them, let alone painting them.

Today I also went to the cinema paying £10 for a ticket and some overpriced sweets that lasted 1.5 hours... do the maths..

Edit : I was also asked TWICE about plastic glue... grrr

What kind of film where you watching if they asked you if you wanted glue? Twice!

Generally I think that some of the over the top GW sales are largely overblown, Between 7 years at 2 separate stores in the area, and visiting probably 10 more stores in 10 years I can count only maybe two or three times that I felt that I was getting steered into something or being almost forced to listen to a red shirt try and sell me something I wasn't interested in. I'm not a Huge fan of Warhammer Fantasy so whenever some new army came out (At the time it was Wood Elves or Brentonnian) I felt that they would go above and beyond of just saying 'hey this new army came out' they would start picking up stuff and tell me how cool it was. It would be akin to that guy who posted in this thread going to a bike store and knowing what he wanted, only to be shown the latest and greatest 1 speed dirt bike.

I would gather this over enthusiasm comes from the amount of employees GW tends to burn through, The stores by me (Which are no longer there) tended to have a pretty standard core of guys who worked there and always had 1 or 2 new guys who were young and just couldn't read peoples body language when enough was enough. The majority of the time you would get decent service and none of the pushy horror stories I keep hearing about, but I'm sure case by case and store by store everything is different, but as a whole no major complaints. You guys have to imagine that at least in the states, the majority of these shops are in malls, that get a lot of Parents and kid foot traffic that have no idea about miniature gaming in general and I'm sure some of the upbeatness comes with trying to show how fun something is, where as the common gamer already has an idea what is going on, and only interested in specifics.

It also usually takes a lot to get me upset, so if someone would get overly pushy I'd just tell them I wasn't interested or let them prattle on while I looked at stuff I was interested in. There's no reason to be mad at the employees for enthusiasm just let them know your looking for some stuff and if you need help you'll let them know. Though I do believe one of my buddies who worked at one said that they were having a huge problem with people snagging blisters and minor theft all the time, so I guess it would make sense to shadow someone like that.

Sile wrote:Cheap one of moulds for injection on things like letter plates are a few grand from what I found on Google. So if the mould is expected to be producing for x runs over y years at the detail required for models it wouldn't surprise me that realistically the moulds are 10k+. I've just been told that the baneblade mould was some super intricate 3 piece, and thus worth a ton - like I said, I don't know how accurate.

Fair enough, I've never worked in plastic manufacturing so I couldn't really argue otherwise. I was just going off a general impression of moulds costing a lot less, if something was particularly sophisticated and built for a lot of operations over multiple years, it might be reasonable, I guess.

As for shipping; it was the reason I labelled it as; I know when you mail something to Aus from an international location it costs a bucket; even by ship, but shipping =/= mail.

Yeah, thing with single products is that most of the cost is in tracking and processing the individual item. Actually moving the object from one place to another is pretty cheap. When you're transporting a full shipping crate worth of stuff those costs drop away massively.


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Elmodiddly wrote:What kind of film where you watching if they asked you if you wanted glue? Twice!

Piranha 3D would probably be a lot more enjoyable if you were sniffing glue while watching it.

I find the staff members nice when they ask you if you need anything,I dont get frustrated with that...
But if they treat you bad just because you messed up the game tables a little bit or not buying something or not buying enoguh,I say screw them

Wings of Purity wrote:I find the staff members nice when they ask you if you need anything,I dont get frustrated with that...
But if they treat you bad just because you messed up the game tables a little bit or not buying something or not buying enoguh,I say screw them

Ah. So they actually gave you hassle because you hang out and use their tables and mess them up, while at the same time not spending money in the store?

Somehow this is all starting to make sense.

BTW, for those who are wondering, high detail, high durability injection molds for something as complex as a sprue can easily run in the 800k plus range.

The 'low cost' comes because you can produce a mold for pennies, so if you're making 10 million of something, that 800k gets spread out among an awful lot of units.

RisingPhoenix wrote:BTW, for those who are wondering, high detail, high durability injection molds for something as complex as a sprue can easily run in the 800k plus range.

The 'low cost' comes because you can produce a mold for pennies, so if you're making 10 million of something, that 800k gets spread out among an awful lot of units.

Yeah, obviously, volume lowers the cost per unit. The query is about the cost of an injection mould piece, while I'll repeat that I'm not in plastics manufacturing, from what I've seen that $800k cost seems high by an order of magnitude.

£500,000 ($800,000) moulds are very rare, most cost up to around £250,000 which by anyones standards, is a huge amount of money. Then they have to recoup that money. As someone has already said look around you. You cannot find anywhere models of the same quality that are cheaper. It just can't be done, especially when you consider everything else that is done with GW products, history, hours of playtesting, painting costs, modelling etc

Flames of War wanted to be, they promised to stay cheaper to lure in people, the only thing is that they too had to raise their costs, in some cases more than GW and PP costs per model.

sebster wrote:

RisingPhoenix wrote:BTW, for those who are wondering, high detail, high durability injection molds for something as complex as a sprue can easily run in the 800k plus range.

The 'low cost' comes because you can produce a mold for pennies, so if you're making 10 million of something, that 800k gets spread out among an awful lot of units.

Yeah, obviously, volume lowers the cost per unit. The query is about the cost of an injection mould piece, while I'll repeat that I'm not in plastics manufacturing, from what I've seen that $800k cost seems high by an order of magnitude.

Once you factor in the cost to hire a sculptor, sculpt the piece, render it in SolidWorks, transform the SolidWorks model into assimilable sprues, create a low-quality test mold, refine the sprue and test mold, then finally create the high quality final mold?

Sure. $80,000 seems reasonable for that procedure...

Hah yes - If we were all happy to play with really badly made miniatures THEN we could have our cheap ass warhammer models.

I've made a few molds and seen a lot of molds made (not for plastic - glass, silver and ceramics. but the principles are the same). anything over a 3 part mold is an absolute pig to make, you have to be a total perfectionist and even then it can all go horribly wrong.

We had an experienced Norwegian blacksmith in our university and he made a bet with the tutors that he could copy a plastic farmyard cow in ceramics. they laughed at him, and it turned out to be a 7 part mold!!! for a cow!!. He did finally manage it but he had a whole pile of deformed cows by the end. he probably spent upwards of 72 hours on this. for a cow...

So I can well believe that even amongst old pro's like GW the odd disaster like someone dropping a mold part could cost a bomb.


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you can always buy second had real cheap, so i think the real issue here is the price of codex and the way they keep changing them so you have to get new ones to play at the store

Anyone have a secondhand tau manta?


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RisingPhoenix wrote:

sebster wrote:

RisingPhoenix wrote:BTW, for those who are wondering, high detail, high durability injection molds for something as complex as a sprue can easily run in the 800k plus range.

The 'low cost' comes because you can produce a mold for pennies, so if you're making 10 million of something, that 800k gets spread out among an awful lot of units.

Yeah, obviously, volume lowers the cost per unit. The query is about the cost of an injection mould piece, while I'll repeat that I'm not in plastics manufacturing, from what I've seen that $800k cost seems high by an order of magnitude.

Once you factor in the cost to hire a sculptor, sculpt the piece, render it in SolidWorks, transform the SolidWorks model into assimilable sprues, create a low-quality test mold, refine the sprue and test mold, then finally create the high quality final mold?

Sure. $80,000 seems reasonable for that procedure...

800K is 800*1000=800,000 - not Eighty thousand, ten times less~!

RisingPhoenix wrote:Once you factor in the cost to hire a sculptor, sculpt the piece, render it in SolidWorks, transform the SolidWorks model into assimilable sprues, create a low-quality test mold, refine the sprue and test mold, then finally create the high quality final mold?

Sure. $80,000 seems reasonable for that procedure...

Meh, fair enough. As I said a bunch of time I haven't worked in the industry, but my vague experience indicated injection moulds like that came in at a fraction of the cost. If you know the industry pretty well I'm happy to hear that I was wrong.

sebster wrote:
Meh, fair enough. As I said a bunch of time I haven't worked in the industry, but my vague experience indicated injection moulds like that came in at a fraction of the cost. If you know the industry pretty well I'm happy to hear that I was wrong.

The problem essentially is, that for an ultra high detail, ultra precise mold (many molds are simply 'good enough' as you don't have any real need for high tolerances) around the size of a sprue, you blow $80,000 just on the mold. I think that's what you're working off of.

The problem is, there's 3 sprues per box. So that's $240k right there (3 molds). Now factor in the modeling, sculpting, and CAD work. That's probably another $60,000 or more. Dry run on molds using lower quality - $60,000-$240,000 (depending on how much lower the quality is). Making 10-30 sample pieces, assembly, examination for flaws, quality control, drawing revision to fix flaws - call it another $30k+.

That's before anything goes wrong. Yeah, you can easily pop $800k that way. There's just too much fiddly in there.

P.S. Chris...

Monster Rain wrote:

Wings of Purity wrote:I find the staff members nice when they ask you if you need anything,I dont get frustrated with that...
But if they treat you bad just because you messed up the game tables a little bit or not buying something or not buying enoguh,I say screw them

Ah. So they actually gave you hassle because you hang out and use their tables and mess them up, while at the same time not spending money in the store?

Somehow this is all starting to make sense.

Not at the same time,when you have bought most of your army at the store,and you are enjoying your time but you forgot to fix up the terrain after the game,And they get mad,i get pissed.
When they force you to buy something and you don't ,and they get mad,I get really pissed
When you buy something and they want you to spend more,but you don't,and they ignore you for that,I would leave and never come back

Wings of Light wrote:
When they force you to buy something and you don't ,and they get mad,I get really pissed
When you buy something and they want you to spend more,but you don't,and they ignore you for that,I would leave and never come back

With respect, do they really force you to buy? Really? They rant and rave, blood pumping in their temples ready to burst because you don't buy anything?

Oh no!
You are in a STORE and they want you to BUY something!
That must be HERESY!!!

/sarcasm

RisingPhoenix wrote:The problem essentially is, that for an ultra high detail, ultra precise mold (many molds are simply 'good enough' as you don't have any real need for high tolerances) around the size of a sprue, you blow $80,000 just on the mold. I think that's what you're working off of.

The problem is, there's 3 sprues per box. So that's $240k right there (3 molds). Now factor in the modeling, sculpting, and CAD work. That's probably another $60,000 or more. Dry run on molds using lower quality - $60,000-$240,000 (depending on how much lower the quality is). Making 10-30 sample pieces, assembly, examination for flaws, quality control, drawing revision to fix flaws - call it another $30k+.

That's before anything goes wrong. Yeah, you can easily pop $800k that way. There's just too much fiddly in there.

P.S. Chris...

Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation.

They don't really force me to buy anything,they ignore me if I don't,and I get pissed at that

Um, duh, if you're not supporting the store, why should they give a gak about you?

So you don't like them hassling you to buy things, but you sound annoyed when they don't bother you?

And you mess up their tables? You don't sound like a model(pardon the expression) customer.

So, which link is more appropriate?
1
Or
2

RisingPhoenix wrote:
P.S. Chris...

Yeah yeah lay off wasn't reading the poster names properly and didn't notice you were the origin of 800k, typo confused with innumeracy. Soz ^_^

guys, if you've been to GW Ringwood they are really nice,


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also in GW chadston, they are supposed to be nice.

ChrisCP wrote:

RisingPhoenix wrote:
P.S. Chris...

Yeah yeah lay off wasn't reading the poster names properly and didn't notice you were the origin of 800k, typo confused with innumeracy. Soz ^_^

I didn't say anything

Edit: My smiley looks much more evil than intended

cool vene! love those links. first one get my vote. I work in retail too and get narked from all the people who blame me personally for all the stores short comings.

RisingPhoenix wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

RisingPhoenix wrote:
P.S. Chris...

Yeah yeah lay off wasn't reading the poster names properly and didn't notice you were the origin of 800k, typo confused with innumeracy. Soz ^_^

I didn't say anything

Edit: My smiley looks much more evil than intended

Hehe, I noticed ages ago - started to feel bad - damn conscience

Guys, seriously, does this stuff about evil smileys have all that much to do with the thread?

What is just interesting as mentioned earlier is that even though GW reported 127M in revenue, only 7M was profit.

120M went back into the business for operating costs and moulds etc.

That other 7(9 inc royalties) will be definitely used, like any other business to reinvest back into the business, for new products etc etc.

Like I said earlier, think about how many releases come out a month; and then think about all the additional costs that would come for each of these releases, each month.

Was that 08/09 or 09/10? I thought they were over 10M in real profit last report.

I'm not sure what the cost of moulds has to do with validating GW's business model. While I do concede that GW plastic kits have generally improved greatly in the past 10 years in both complexity and detail - the kits themselves have exceeded the level of detail provided by budget model companies (Revell) but are still somewhat primitive compared to kits made by high end pastic kit manufacturerers (Tamiya, Dragon, Hasegawa etc).

Using mould complexity to justify GW's price structure would suggest that other manufcaturers using equally (or more) complex mould systems should be charging GW level prices - OR be losing money! A good example of another company using complex moulds would be Bandai and their Gundam line - considering that the models once built, are rugged enough to see considerable play. Their moulds, like GW are able to deliver crisp detail and hollow barrels. They also boast composite multi-colour, multi material sprue including clear and rubber parts, pieces moulded in composite colours and generous use of polycaps for articulation. One might think that because of the complexity required to produce sprue of this type that the resulting models would be proportionally expensive - but this technology is applied to their whole line - basic 1/144 (~$10USD each) to super huge 1/48 (~much more expensive USD each)!, from the mightiest hero robot to the lowliest stumpy one episode appearing mono-eyed enemy! One might think that using multi-colour sprue technology on the $10 models must be losing them money - but Bandai's model making arm doesn't appear to be going bust any time soon...

This suggests to me that while the costs of complex moulds are substantial (say - £400k x 20 each year = £8 out of £120) - they only comprise a fraction of GW's annual costs and as such, are only proportionally responsible for the cost of their product.

-EDIT-

http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2010/2009-10_FinalFullYearReport.pdf

GW seems to have £16M profit 2010 after royalties. I think the key here is to note that there's only a +£0.8M increase in revenue over last year though and DECREASED revenue at constant currency. Therefore, to my uneducated eyes, it looks like the added profit must be coming from operational savings.

Bandai; the company that gives us Power Rangers, Tanagotchis, Ben 10 in their 3 guises, Harumika as well as dominating the market with products, spin offs with TV, films, cartoons and hundreds of licensing deals?

The company that has a turn over of $44.8 Billion and had profits of $229 million?

Do you really think you can compare the two? Really?

@Elmodiddly: Sure - why not? - unless you would like to posit that Bandai is losing money from their model making group and subsidizing it from its other arms.

As for claims that Bandai enjoys more widespread appeal, while Gundam is kind of a cultural phenomenon in Japan, it is still a niche product outside Japan. Its merch is targetted at and mostly consumed by fans of the series, very much like how GW merch is directly driven by fans and players of the GW universe through the wargame (and to some extension, the video games). To suggest that something like Tamogotchi or Ben10 would translate into additional Gunpla sales is ludicrous.

Bandai is doing what GW is trying to transition towards (cue CT Gamer from the first page) with its increasingly diverse portfolio of video games, card and board game and the upcoming Ultramarines film. The fact that Bandai has other profitable arms doesn't change the fact that while mould costs are expensive, they don't factor as much into the costs as defenders of GW's business plan claim.

While I am well aware that pleasing all customers is impossible - I think that to give GW's business model a free pass on that basis is silly, as there's clearly room for improvement in their strategy. I'm afraid that you and I will never see eye to eye on that.

They should just abolish the stores and drop prices slightly. Keeping only a few of the bigger, more clubbly stores open I think

GW customer service can be more tuned, their business strategy is spot on though considering their latest profits are up on last year.

What I am saying is that you can't compare a company such as Bandai because they have many fingers in many pies and such a large manufacturer can afford to do such things as you describe with their models because their business can absorb such costs.

GW cannot absorb such costs, you have seen the year reports, you can see where the molney is gong the same as me. They have to increase costs, it is business facts, items increase in costs, moulds etc so that has to be factored into it otherwise they don't make profit.

It's not about defending the business plan, it is the only business plan available to GW! They simply cannot afford to offset costs until such things as the movie take off and increase revenue.

Injection molds are a weird expense. A class 101 mold will last over a million units easily. At that level, $800k doesn't look like much. Especially since a second mold only costs $240k (no engineering/quality checking/prototype runs with 105s). So if Bandai is producing 3 million units with 3 class 101 molds, that will cost them maybe 2 million or so, assuming their base mold cost is twice GWs ($480k versus $240k for mats). That's a cool $0.66 on the unit.

If GW runs on a class 102 (which they probably do, but which means the details will fade and act irregular later in the run) and doing a 200k box set run, that $800k ends up looking a lot like $4 on the unit.

And that's why injection molds rock for mass production and blow for small runs!

RisingPhoenix wrote:Injection molds are a weird expense. A class 101 mold will last over a million units easily. At that level, $800k doesn't look like much. Especially since a second mold only costs $240k (no engineering/quality checking/prototype runs with 105s). So if Bandai is producing 3 million units with 3 class 101 molds, that will cost them maybe 2 million or so, assuming their base mold cost is twice GWs ($480k versus $240k for mats). That's a cool $0.66 on the unit.

If GW runs on a class 102 (which they probably do, but which means the details will fade and act irregular later in the run) and doing a 200k box set run, that $800k ends up looking a lot like $4 on the unit.

And that's why injection molds rock for mass production and blow for small runs!

-EDIT- Sorry for really going OT, but this is interesting stuff...

Any reason you think that GW opted for the class 102 vs the 101 other than (assumed) decreased capitol cost? Facility availability? Based on your above description, the 101 seems to be a much better long term value - especially considering the hybrid nature of GW's products - it seems to make sense to have baseline product such as Rhinos and Marines made using the more durable mould and add-on products made with the cheaper.

Is there any kind of savings involved when GW recuts a sprue and has a new mould produced? I'm sure that some amount of re-engineering is involved. What are your thoughts on the planned obsolescence of the starter kits? Unless these are recut after the fact - these moulds are designed to be retired (end of lifecycle or not) at the end of the game edition.

Elmodiddly wrote:GW customer service can be more tuned, their business strategy is spot on though considering their latest profits are up on last year.

I'm no economist, but the figure showing that their revenues (adjusted for currency fluctuations) have decreased since 08/09 would seem to indicate that quantity of sales has slipped. Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture... Increased profit is good - increased profit on the back of decreasing total revenue would seem to be a bad trend.

Which may or may or not be a reason for increased focus on recruitment?

keezus wrote:

RisingPhoenix wrote:Injection molds are a weird expense. A class 101 mold will last over a million units easily. At that level, $800k doesn't look like much. Especially since a second mold only costs $240k (no engineering/quality checking/prototype runs with 105s). So if Bandai is producing 3 million units with 3 class 101 molds, that will cost them maybe 2 million or so, assuming their base mold cost is twice GWs ($480k versus $240k for mats). That's a cool $0.66 on the unit.

If GW runs on a class 102 (which they probably do, but which means the details will fade and act irregular later in the run) and doing a 200k box set run, that $800k ends up looking a lot like $4 on the unit.

And that's why injection molds rock for mass production and blow for small runs!

-EDIT- Sorry for really going OT, but this is interesting stuff...

Any reason you think that GW opted for the class 102 vs the 101 other than (assumed) decreased capitol cost? Facility availability? Based on your above description, the 101 seems to be a much better long term value - especially considering the hybrid nature of GW's products - it seems to make sense to have baseline product such as Rhinos and Marines made using the more durable mould and add-on products made with the cheaper.

Is there any kind of savings involved when GW recuts a sprue and has a new mould produced? I'm sure that some amount of re-engineering is involved. What are your thoughts on the planned obsolescence of the starter kits? Unless these are recut after the fact - these moulds are designed to be retired (end of lifecycle or not) at the end of the game edition.

I honestly have no idea if they opted for a class 102 over a 101. I can tell you almost certainly they did though. Maybe AoBR is a class 101, that has the volume. Also, in case you're wondering, even 102s fail somewhere in the millions of runs. AoBR is probably fine, as a mold, but in 2 years, the numbers of rejects is going to become very, very high (that's how you know a mold is near the end, btw. Rejection rates from quality control start going up and keep going up). Class 102 is good for up to 1 million units. If you're only going to ever sell 200k-300k, then you'd almost never opt for a 101.

And that's the rub on why 102s. Honestly, are they going to sell a million Dev Squad sprues? Maybe. Are they going to sell a million rhino chassis sprues? Almost certainly (it's in everything), so that one is probably a 101, with the specific additions (whirlwind, etc.) being 102s. Are they going to sell a million Fire Warrior boxes? A million boxes of grots? All together now... noooooooooooo. 102.

The problem isn't 'volume' it's 'selling that volume.' And my analysis is totally incomplete, before you jump to the conclusion that it's clearly better to just sell them cheap.

- First, you have to package them. Ship them. Stock them on shelves. Store them in warehouses. Overproduction is bad.

- Second, this isn't the sort of hobby that encourages large multiple sales to the average person. Take Magic the Gathering. Assume I buy 500 magic cards. A new set comes out. Is there a reason not to buy it? Well, assuming you have the money, why not? Now, Warhammer? How many people have unpainted plastic? Most of us? Thought so.

As you guessed, GW should only make the class 101s for the most universal and commonly used sprues. If you'll notice, every army seems to be developing a standardized body, with accessory sprues, and standardized tank chassis, with specialized weapon sprues. Anything you see popping up time and again? That one will be a 101. Otherwise, 102.

The problem is, how many of those are there? Think about all the sprues a space marine army can take. How many of them are 101s? Probably 3-5. The rest are all going to be 102s.


P.S. The molds wearing out is a feature, not a bug. Trust me, GW likes redesigning models periodically. I assure you, 102s are NOT cheap disposable molds (that's 105s). 103s are the standard 'quick, imprecise part' mold, and its cheaper to use up multiple 103s than it is to get a single 101 - as long as you don't mind the imprecision, of course (when was the last time you complained your plastic dongle on something was off by 1/16"? What if the features on your guardsmen had a 1/16" problem?).

@RisingPheonix: Thanks for the reply. I know admittedly nothing about the injection molding business - so all this is pretty interesting to me.

I agree that the retiring of molds seems to fit in with their practice of retooling main lines every 6-8 years (or every 3, if you are Space Marines)

I swear to krone if i see an apothecary and a harlie doing kung-fu fighting in cartoon i`m gonna take a derringer las-pistol to the head.

Come again?

He will shot himself If Games Workshop ever go mainstream and make cartoons.

I wouldn't mind If they do violent manga style cartoons with 15-18 rating. That would be acceptable

weetyskemian44 wrote:He will shot himself If Games Workshop ever go mainstream and make cartoons.

I wouldn't mind If they do violent manga style cartoons with 15-18 rating. That would be acceptable

Nah i think a cartoon for warhammer/warhammer 40K would be weird. A film's ok but not a cartoon.

weetyskemian44 wrote:He will shot himself If Games Workshop ever go mainstream and make cartoons.

I wouldn't mind If they do violent manga style cartoons with 15-18 rating. That would be acceptable

I agree with Eldar Own, as I don't think a Anime would be right, no mater what rating you put into it. There are some great Anime films out but I don't think that the style would suit anything GW does. You could probably get away with a cartoon depending on the style but for me CGI all the way

I wont argue with CGI. love it actually- but maybe with real human actors like in that filum beowulf

weetyskemian44 wrote:but maybe with real human actors like in that filum beowulf

That was what I liked about that film. Before Beowulf, nobody had used real human actors before. It was such an innovation.

weetyskemian44 wrote:I wont argue with CGI. love it actually- but maybe with real human actors like in that filum beowulf

They are kind of doing this with the Ultramarine film as they are using facial capture technology on the voice actors and applying them to the characters in the film

WTF is wrong with GW staff members.

Nothing

I actually went to GW on Saturday for the first time in an age. There wasn't anything wrong with the staff. But I really couldn't afford to buy anything and It was a completely teenage boy dominated environment.

The staff dude was helpful and I wouldn't have minded chatting for longer but the teenagers were freaking me out and making me feel old.

It seem to have gotten a lot smaller than the last time I was in. Or maybe I just grew a lot.

We call that middle aged spread weety.

HAH! yeah totally, I was a size 8 last time I went in - not anymore. Not spread as far as the store manager has though!!!

I'm 17 now, I started playing at 10 (yeah probably too early, but whatever), and in those 7 years I've noticed the staff have generally improved, sure there's one or two donkey-cave staff members at my local GW, but before almost all of them were jerks

But yeah things are too expensive, I've personally listed the things I want to complete my Ogre army and only one thing was cheapest at GW, which was a large metal kit that's not very in demand (Greasus Goldtooth)

Really GW need to lower their price range and work on integrating the old warhammer crowd into the game rather than simply trying to entice teens into the game

Again, I hear people complaining about the price, I just want to know why everybody thinks that it's overpriced. What are we comparing it to? Is there a company out there that sells detailed, unpainted, plastic miniatures for significantly less? I asked earlier in this thread and nobody had a response. I'm not trying to be a GW apologist, I just want to know if the complaint has merit. Because when I look at the prices of miniatures other companies offer I find metal and I find resin and I find minis that are more expensive than GW.

Well I suppose my thinking the prices are too high is because i buy most of my mini's second hand and I'm careful not to bid to high. I suppose its not really the same as buying new, and doesn't really support the system, but I actually couldn't afford to buy at new prices. Thats all I'm saying. And someones gotta preserve all those lovely old minis

I guess I am fairly lucky in that I can afford to by Gw products as and when I want [not too much as the mrs soon notices the packages being carried in or delivered!]. Compaired to other things I could be doing (golf, drinking and playing rugby, shooting) wargaming is cheap and keeps me out of trouble.

GW was expensive to me when I started collecting minis (1987), even at 50p for a metal dwarf/fighter. But then that was because I didn't get much money (£1/2 a week if I washed the car!) and my parents didn't get me whatever I wanted. :(

The only thing that has really changed is me. My earning has risen greatly as has the way in which I value the things I want. I see allot of posters on here that are either under 16, students or low wage earners complaining about the prices or GW gouging, twas always the case as far as my experience goes but I do not see it as GW fault.

What I will say is that despite all of the above I could not bring myself to buy anything during a recent trip to Warhammer World. All the precious things I could have wanted and all that was going through my head was "but I can get it for 20% less than that!".

Vene wrote:Is there a company out there that sells detailed, unpainted, plastic miniatures for significantly less?

Exhibit A:
http://www.manticgames.com/

Wow thats 50p for a dwarf!

Osbad wrote:

Vene wrote:Is there a company out there that sells detailed, unpainted, plastic miniatures for significantly less?

Exhibit A:
http://www.manticgames.com/

Okay, thank you, that is actually what I wanted to see. I'm not sure if anything there is of interest to me, but at least it shows it's possible to sell the minis at a lower cost.

The bummer about those peripheral model companies are that their products aren't technically allowed at GW events.

I've never seen anyone called on it, but the potential is there.

Its a limited range. And I don't like their dwarfs much - but the skeletons are up to standard

Vene wrote:Again, I hear people complaining about the price, I just want to know why everybody thinks that it's overpriced. What are we comparing it to? Is there a company out there that sells detailed, unpainted, plastic miniatures for significantly less? I asked earlier in this thread and nobody had a response. I'm not trying to be a GW apologist, I just want to know if the complaint has merit. Because when I look at the prices of miniatures other companies offer I find metal and I find resin and I find minis that are more expensive than GW.

Most telling is that GW themselves makes detailed, plastic miniatures for significantly less... just look at the LOTR line. Plastic infantry are 45% the cost of their 40k/Fantasy counterparts (20x for $32.75 vs current edition 40k/Fantasy at 10x for $29.75). It narrows with cavalry, but LOTR cav is still cheaper by a 15% margin. As LOTR is a GW product, the level of quality is obviously equivalent.

The thing I find weird about the manager at my store, is that when he goes up to me and asks me a question, (if I were to be looking at something) I'll answer him but like whoever said on here about them being like robots, its more like talking to a wall. the reason I say that is because even though he is asking me a question, he doesnt exactly care for what I have to say, or if he is even paying attention. I dont know why, but I always get this weird vibe ,I guess.

Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

OMG that is quote of the Month. Kirasu FTW!

On a seperate but related issue, do you think that GW Products are over priced because of the ridiculous overheads involved in some of their high street stores? I have a brilliant local independant store. WWW.firestormgames.co.uk and the owner sells alot of product but his GW products are 15% cheaper, his shop is in an Industrial estate and has about 60 tables out back. He stocks lots of different ranges but because he isn't paying high street rent prices and runs it all himself he has little staff costs and a minimal business unit rent. That said he still has to work hard to get a good turn over.
I think if i was in charge of GW I would begin to produce a 2 tier system of production. Boxed glossy stuff teenagers and the high street. For us as a more dedicated bunch, I think we could buy the sprues directly so instead of £29.99 or whatever for Terminators, we could buy a Termie sprue for £9.99 a termie weapons sprue £7.99 (assault or tactical types) a set of bases. They could then mail it directly in a jiffy bag for £19.99 or whatever no bells or whistles or packaging etc. Ok they would need a specialist department and probably 3-4 staff to do it, but it would excellent for all of us who convert etc. Look at the number of the Bitz sites for buying specific parts. I really think GW would cut out alot of middle men make more profit and shut down a few dubious GW Stores around the country. There are plenty of Smaller hobby shops they could help out with sponsorship or somekind of Francise rather than having their own centralised system. GW Stores are Okay, they have just lost their soul and become corporate. It happens to all charming businesses and companies once they get past a certain size. C'est la vie.

mwnciboo wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Does Nostradamus know when GW will get their own nascar car?

OMG that is quote of the Month. Kirasu FTW!

On a seperate but related issue, do you think that GW Products are over priced because of the ridiculous overheads involved in some of their high street stores? I have a brilliant local independant store. WWW.firestormgames.co.uk and the owner sells alot of product but his GW products are 15% cheaper, his shop is in an Industrial estate and has about 60 tables out back. He stocks lots of different ranges but because he isn't paying high street rent prices and runs it all himself he has little staff costs and a minimal business unit rent. That said he still has to work hard to get a good turn over.
I think if i was in charge of GW I would begin to produce a 2 tier system of production. Boxed glossy stuff teenagers and the high street. For us as a more dedicated bunch, I think we could buy the sprues directly so instead of £29.99 or whatever for Terminators, we could buy a Termie sprue for £9.99 a termie weapons sprue £7.99 (assault or tactical types) a set of bases. They could then mail it directly in a jiffy bag for £19.99 or whatever no bells or whistles or packaging etc. Ok they would need a specialist department and probably 3-4 staff to do it, but it would excellent for all of us who convert etc. Look at the number of the Bitz sites for buying specific parts. I really think GW would cut out alot of middle men make more profit and shut down a few dubious GW Stores around the country. There are plenty of Smaller hobby shops they could help out with sponsorship or somekind of Francise rather than having their own centralised system. GW Stores are Okay, they have just lost their soul and become corporate. It happens to all charming businesses and companies once they get past a certain size. C'est la vie.

Yes, lets kill the local gaming store, that'll end well for this hobby.

Monster Rain wrote:The bummer about those peripheral model companies are that their products aren't technically allowed at GW events.

I've never seen anyone called on it, but the potential is there.

So don't go to "official" GW events. AFAIK only GW GT events and events in GW stores (of which there are an ever-decreasing number following the switch to one-man stores) are affected. In the UK, Oz and the US much more gaming happens in non-GW-official contexts than in "official" ones anyhow.

If you are at an event held at an indie store, then there is the opportunity to convince the owner to stock the alternative brand. Most owners will be interested if they think they can generate sales, and given Mantic's lower price point, it may not take much to convince them of the benefits of stocking them!

It's YOUR hobby, take control of it!

Damn right, the current generation of other lines like MANTIC and others mean there is more options than ever to deviate with the GW Lines. Can you use WHFB rules with your Mantic Dwarfs? Of course you can! So if we continue down this road, GW is going to have to get more competitive and reduce prices, on certain lines. Space Marines will still cost a bomb though!

It is simple really, the more competition the more you have to fight for your market share. Who benefits? Us the Gamer. I stop sometimes and look at the stuff I see daily on Dakka and I think wow (where was all this when I was younger, we never even heard of Airbrushes in the 90's) , we are in a golden age of gaming (regardless of all the RT enthuisasts and the /tg/ who say it was better in the old days I say WTF get a pair of eyes and look around you!).

Welcome to the Golden Age of Gaming, get your paintbrushes Ready, after all there is a War on!

Right with you mwnciboo. If Mantic do expand and do future stuff they will give GW a run for their money. Simpler rules, which offer comething slightly different, cheaper models, same size, easier for kids to get to grips with the rules, tournament chess clock style play.

It does only ticks boxes for me, I cannot see many negatives. Just trying to order a ticket for their open Day on 9 Oct but their website is complete gak.

mwnciboo wrote:Damn right, the current generation of other lines like MANTIC and others mean there is more options than ever to deviate with the GW Lines. Can you use WHFB rules with your Mantic Dwarfs? Of course you can! So if we continue down this road, GW is going to have to get more competitive and reduce prices, on certain lines. Space Marines will still cost a bomb though!

I'll start by saying that I love the Fantasy fluff and models. But if I were to be really critical, they might find it worthwhile to drop the line or sell it off. All their unique IP is tied into 40K, Fantasy is full of orc and goblins and elves, and a great deal of that is unenforceable from a legal point of view. Unique characters are their property, but you don't have to look far to find other manufacturers producing easily compatible model lines. Whereas 40K is much more their beast, there are other SF lines but most do not closely resemble 40K, and certainly only GW can make Space Marines. If tough choices had to be made in future they could look to axe Fantasy over 40K.

I agree with this point in part, your premise is fundamentally sound and the business case and IP is spot on. I think they would consider it but I really wouldn't be sure if they would follow through with such an idea. Would gamers feel like they betrayed by GW? I still choke up alittle when someone mentions Squats .
GW could itself schism, it happened quite a bit in the early days Ali Morrison and others setting up various companies. Would someone start their own WHFB compatible range or would they take the idea completely as the IP is not in place? Warmachine is already proving that GW has backed the wrong Horse over the last decade, Blackpowder, Flames of War and other systems have rocketed in popularity. LOTR anyone? Is it still going? does anyone care? It was half decade fad, it might get some more interest in the Hobbit, but in the main it will go back to the Unique slot in the intelligent young boys dust cupboard, right next to Homers Illiyiad and Tolstoy. Tolkien sold alot of books, but GW has not sold anywhere as many Models!

You are correct that the IP for 40K is exceptionally unique, I think Imperial Guard can be converted from other sources as can orks but every other race is far more difficult. I did allude to this in my other post, that SM will still cost a bomb as no one else can produce anything remotely like them, GW would consolidate on 40k and subsidise WHFB. It would a be Horus Heresy level betrayal if GW dropped WHFB because of the competition, imagine the repurcussions from the gaming community. THey would survive it, and move on but alot of people I know would probably find it unforgivable.

I don't think elves in space is that hard to copy.

I dare you to do it, I give you 24 months before GW try some kind of move. Encroach on their 40K IP and they'll be after you, it really is the Golden Goose.

GW doesn't own elves, they don't own space. You can't make Eldar, but they don't own space elves any more than they own space orcs.

Vene wrote:GW doesn't own elves, they don't own space. You can't make Eldar, but they don't own space elves any more than they own space orcs.

What they can and can't own isn't that important. The real question is could you afford to defend yourself if they started litigation? Would you be willing to take the risk of them winning a court case against you, and you then owing them however many hundreds of thousands in damages. I think for most; it's just not worth the hassle to step on their toes.

And yet, for all they don't own 'Space Elves' in order to sell any 'kind-of-likes' you'd have to make them pretty similar, which is where the legal side kicks you in the Nads big time.

It makes competition extremely difficult, unless you have a very different product. I am sure Mantic will come under fire from GW at some point, they just want to find something they can use against them effectively. Good on Mantic though, they are braver than me.

If they wanted to shut down Mantic, it wouldn't be very hard. The thing is Mantic's making a competing game system to Warhammer Fantasy, and providing their models for such.

The actual design of the models is also very dissimilar. At least insofar as making them similar to GW's, rather than the generic fantasy archetypes.

Plus: Mantic's based in a freaking castle. GW don't want none.

Kanluwen wrote:If they wanted to shut down Mantic, it wouldn't be very hard.

Manic are doing nothing that GW can use legally against them. And this isn't a "nerr nerr we're making copies and you can't touch us" argument it's just plain reality. GW doesn't own the fantasy genre, I don't know where this belief comes from that GW are all powerful and can tell everyone else what they can and cannot do in fantasy modelling - loads of companies make 28mm fantasy miniatures.

There are plenty of fantasy 28mm figures out there, Mantic are just making skeletons and elves in 28mm. 40K is different, to make models that look close enough to proxy for GW ones you are probably violating IP, if you make something that looks suspiciously like their space marines you could be in trouble because their space marines are very uinque to them. Making goblins and dwarves for fantasy isn't an issue as many other companies have done. This is the problem with making models in such a generic field. If GW want to shut Mantic down they'll have to compete with them in the marketplace not in the courtroom.

Companies like Harlequin and Heartbreaker miniatures made fantasy ranges that were easily compatible with Warhammer and they were not 'shut down' by GW, they just lasted some years and got wound up or sold on and it'll be interesting to see how Mantic manage.

*points at Mantic's Berserker models*

While Mantic isn't doing "nerr nerr we're making copies and you can't touch us", they were early on placing themselves as a company that makes models that are easily usable in Warhammer Fantasy.

Until Mantic's game system comes out, they're slightly more vulnerable. I get a sneaking suspicion they're going to be left alone though, unless they keep rubbing in the fact that Alessio Cavatore now works there.

If they try to bank on "Oh, we have a Games Workshop designer designing our game!" there might be an issue.

Kanluwen wrote:*points at Mantic's Berserker models*

While Mantic isn't doing "nerr nerr we're making copies and you can't touch us", they were early on placing themselves as a company that makes models that are easily usable in Warhammer Fantasy.

Who cares. GW doesn't own the general image of a shirtless dwarf or a fully armored dwarf. With the way you are suggesting it a company that makes humans better watch it out as the can be used as empire for WHFB. There is no issue here and same with Chapter House despite all the wasted hot air from this forum. If GW can slap C&D on silly little forums that take in $5 advertising revenue they sure as hell would have dealt with Chapter House\ AofW\ Mantic with an extremely large legal hammer by now - they would had to in order to protect their assets. So to continue to suggest otherwise makes zero sense and shows a lack of reality of modern day business practices.

The difference being a $5 advertising revenue is not a threat to their consumer base is it? Mantic quite clearly is! Business is Dog eat Dog, Fact, GW has Shares Fact, Profit comes ahead of all other concerns, fact, even having a soul...

mwnciboo wrote:The difference being a $5 advertising revenue is not a threat to their consumer base is it? Mantic quite clearly is! Business is Dog eat Dog, Fact, GW has Shares Fact, Profit comes ahead of all other concerns, fact, even having a soul...

Ummmm you need to read a bit more carefully.

The point was GW can and does C&D a website for small ad revenue.

If it does that it would have dealt with Mantic\ AofW and Chapter House by now if it could.

They haven't, ergo GW haven't yet found a way to stop them.

Therefore the frequent and pointless posturing in this forum about Mantic\ AofW and Chapter House is a waste of time. Do you honestly expect all three companies to have invested so heavily without getting legal clearance first? The fact they exist and have existed for so long is because GW legal cannot touch them yet. For anyone to suggest otherwise doesn;t understand how business works.

edit for crap writing and poor grammar

Agree with fullheadofhair,

Ronnie worked for GW for 15 years so he knows everything about GW including all that GW has IP over and what they don't.
He will tread, probably, a fine line but, as others have said, GW do not own some races and he will steer clear of others completely such as SM.
Most other races, undead, knights, men, dwarves, elves etc all exist elsewhere anyway and have no copyright.

He's not daft and his angle is quite different. I hope he does well and Mantic become a serious contender for No1 game system in a few years time.

He can even do a complete makeover of WWII stuff and challenge Flames of War, for example, as none of that it copyrighted so he can go in any direction he feels fit really.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:*points at Mantic's Berserker models*

While Mantic isn't doing "nerr nerr we're making copies and you can't touch us", they were early on placing themselves as a company that makes models that are easily usable in Warhammer Fantasy.

Who cares. GW doesn't own the general image of a shirtless dwarf or a fully armored dwarf. With the way you are suggesting it a company that makes humans better watch it out as the can be used as empire for WHFB. There is no issue here and same with Chapter House despite all the wasted hot air from this forum. If GW can slap C&D on silly little forums that take in $5 advertising revenue they sure as hell would have dealt with Chapter House\ AofW\ Mantic with an extremely large legal hammer by now - they would had to in order to protect their assets. So to continue to suggest otherwise makes zero sense and shows a lack of reality of modern day business practices.

First off:
It's never been "Oh, this site is making $5 advertising revenue--slap a C&D on them!". Never has that happened. It's always been relating to either: A)The site is hosting content they shouldn't(such as boardgamegeeks hosting entire rules sets for games; including ones that GW no longer owns the licenses to which they'd still be able to get their pants sued off because of them being out there, Curse falsely promoting a site that they bought out as a "fan site" and raking in thousands if not more in advertising revenue a year, etc) or B) The site directly breaching GW's copywritten material/competing with a GW licensee(Blood Bowl site comes to mind here, as they promoted themselves as the "official" Blood Bowl home). So you can get that crap out of your head right now.

Second off:
Context matters.
Chapterhouse doesn't advertise their stuff as an "alternative" to Games Workshop kits, they advertise themselves as a supplement. There's a small difference here.
Avatars of War does the same, but in a more roundabout way with the fact that they only create character models.

Mantic had positioned themselves, on day one, as a "direct alternative to Games Workshop's models at a cheaper cost that even has the correct weapon options for usage in Warhammer Fantasy". It's only with the acquisition of Alessio Cavatore that they've really gone towards making their own game system happen. Which means that I highly doubt GW will go after them since while the models are nice...they're not really a threat. Especially not before they ever have an actual rules system down.

Kanluwen wrote:

First off:
It's never been "Oh, this site is making $5 advertising revenue--slap a C&D on them!". Never has that happened. It's always been relating to either: A)The site is hosting content they shouldn't(such as boardgamegeeks hosting entire rules sets for games; including ones that GW no longer owns the licenses to which they'd still be able to get their pants sued off because of them being out there, Curse falsely promoting a site that they bought out as a "fan site" and raking in thousands if not more in advertising revenue a year, etc) or B) The site directly breaching GW's copywritten material/competing with a GW licensee(Blood Bowl site comes to mind here, as they promoted themselves as the "official" Blood Bowl home). So you can get that crap out of your head right now.

Not the point I was making. Once again the point I am making is if GW can expend the time and energy on multiple small websites for breach and misuse the sure as heck would have done something about AofW/ Mantic and CH.

Second off:
Context matters.
Chapterhouse doesn't advertise their stuff as an "alternative" to Games Workshop kits, they advertise themselves as a supplement. There's a small difference here.
Avatars of War does the same, but in a more roundabout way with the fact that they only create character models.

Bollocks. It is nothing to do with "context". CH is living off GW IP but have done it the smart way and GW cannot touch them. That is the point I was making.

AofW are by and large producing generic fantasy models - good elf & bad elf, Dwarf King and Minataur etc. GW doesn't own those images. Nothing to do with "context". I will accept that their daemon champion is skirting a little close.

Mantic had positioned themselves, on day one, as a "direct alternative to Games Workshop's models at a cheaper cost that even has the correct weapon options for usage in Warhammer Fantasy". It's only with the acquisition of Alessio Cavatore that they've really gone towards making their own game system happen. Which means that I highly doubt GW will go after them since while the models are nice...they're not really a threat. Especially not before they ever have an actual rules system down.

Total bollocks. It doesn't matter what they look like. GW does not own the image of a dwarf with a hammer or a dwarf with a hammer and shield. The fact they can be used for a fantasy game owned by GW is irrelevent.

GW won't go after them coz they cannot. If a small website is worth of a C&D I am sure a company capable of produce regiments of good looking plastic miniatures would definitely be getting a look from GW if they could stop them.

To suggest other wise is makes absolute no sense.

Okay, i'll put my hand up to adding fuel to the fire on this one. I think maybe we've gone a little too far with this one.

The other night I walked in GW with eyeliner and lavender eye shadow. The resident really stupid redshirt (you know the one) comments in a confused way "did both your eyes get punched?" I turned and slyly remarked "No, I'm just f*cking gorgeous." He was like "what are you talking about?" as his entire body clenched uncomfortably and one of the players in the store backs me up saying "he's f*cking gorgeous." Then he said whatever and walked away uncomfortably. I probably should have hit on him to make it worse

Or maybe you should dial your make-up down from "whore".

Ha, it was pretty tame It was lavender sparkles, I didn't even use the two dark shades from the set. I think it was called "Ice princess." XD

Okay, I feel like i'm taking 'shrooms now. I've got mental images of the scissor sisters playing 40k whilst bitch slapping a GW Employee.

What the hell has happened to this thread?

Nurglitch wrote:Or maybe you should dial your make-up down from "whore".

I rarely say this, but that made me laugh out loud, as it were.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:The other night I walked in GW with eyeliner and lavender eye shadow. The resident really stupid redshirt (you know the one) comments in a confused way "did both your eyes get punched?" I turned and slyly remarked "No, I'm just f*cking gorgeous." He was like "what are you talking about?" as his entire body clenched uncomfortably and one of the players in the store backs me up saying "he's f*cking gorgeous." Then he said whatever and walked away uncomfortably. I probably should have hit on him to make it worse

Well, as long as you were f*cking gorgeous, what's the problem?

Cannerus, the Redshirt was uncomfortable because it was a GW Specialty Product that they don't openly support anymore. It's likely he was trying to asking you to leave but couldn't, because he was pitching one at the same time

The topic seems to have exhausted itself.

Perhaps we might discuss naval wargames for a while.