So a friend and I were having a small argument and now I have been challenged to take "THE" absolute WAAC, Over Powered beyond belief, unfair to the point of it just being stupid, [add yet more adverbs and adjectives here] Blood Angels list, so I have been wondering exactly what it is.

To be a little more specific I do not want any Land Raiders in this list please!

I know that it is on the base of around (3-4) 5 man Assault Squads each with a meltagun in Las/Plas Razorbacks and I think (AFAIK) that it contains 3 Baal Preds and 3 Vindicators, and then 2 Libbys each with Shield of Sanguinius and one other psychic power of choice.

Just curious as to what this list might be and why it is so fantastical and amazing.

That really is the WAAC list, and I don't know how it's so effective myself...

Though I bet seeing 6 razor backs that can pop a tank and have 5+ cover at pretty much all times is what wins the day.

Still reeks of boring though.

zeekill wrote:So a friend and I were having a small argument and now I have been challenged to take "THE" absolute WAAC, Over Powered beyond belief, unfair to the point of it just being stupid . . .

You'd have better odds making interorectogestion happen.

Leez wrote:

zeekill wrote:So a friend and I were having a small argument and now I have been challenged to take "THE" absolute WAAC, Over Powered beyond belief, unfair to the point of it just being stupid . . .

You'd have better odds making interorectogestion happen.

What? Im confused...

zeekill wrote:

Leez wrote:

zeekill wrote:So a friend and I were having a small argument and now I have been challenged to take "THE" absolute WAAC, Over Powered beyond belief, unfair to the point of it just being stupid . . .

You'd have better odds making interorectogestion happen.

What? Im confused...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=interorectogestion

Leez wrote:

zeekill wrote:

Leez wrote:

zeekill wrote:So a friend and I were having a small argument and now I have been challenged to take "THE" absolute WAAC, Over Powered beyond belief, unfair to the point of it just being stupid . . .

You'd have better odds making interorectogestion happen.

What? Im confused...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=interorectogestion

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=4246392

Can we get back on topic?

Before the mods have us all executed?

Your stated intentions have changed. The goal as outlined in your first post is not possible, your implied goal in the last sentence of the Objection! is. Your second sentence in the Objection! appears to be nonsensical.

Ok, ok, My final question is

What is the best list that can be taken for allcomers at 1850 points (as in, the one that is taken most often by those zero-comp powergamers in tournaments)

And before you comment, yes I know that there are some modifications in each list most likely. I'm just looking for one of the variations, I will tweak it as I wish to fit what I want.

zeekill wrote:Ok, ok, My final question is

What is the best list that can be taken for allcomers (as in, the one that is taken most often by those zero-comp powergamers in tournaments)

And before you comment, yes I know that there are some modifications in each list most likely. I'm just looking for one of the variations, I will tweak it as I wish to fit what I want.

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/p/army-list-compilation.html
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/01/will-be-posting-potential-jp-list-later.html

^He, goes into some detail about BA and BA-lists. Though I somehow doubt he'd take to being called a "zero-comp powergamer". All of the lists are very "fluffy" in fact, though not all equally competitive perhaps.

one nasty BA list i have seen was

Reclusiarch with Jpack

Brother Corbolo

4 10 strong assault marine squads with 2 Meltas and a PF each.

6 Sanguinary priests(4 with jpacks, 2 with Terminator armor)

10 man assault terminator squad with 5 LCs and 5 TH/SS

2 squads of 6 Grey Knight terminators

2 Devestator squads with lascannons


jump pack priests in with assault marines, Terminator priests in with the GKTs.

terminators advanced up the center while the Assault marines followed in their wake. Devestator squad was purely for some long ranged AT.


this list won the local ard boyz this year to many cries of cheese.

Definition of cheese by Webster's

Cheese: a list that people lose to, and because they lost, they say it is overpowered. Also a delicious food.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Definition of cheese by Webster's

Cheese: a list that people lose to, and because they lost, they say it is overpowered. Also a delicious food.

Listen, if you dont want to help me, fine, but dont just mock me in your posts without giving any real advice.

I want one of THE tourney lists. that's all I'm asking for. The ones that score zero comp, and would score negative 20 comp if that were possible.

zeekill wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Definition of cheese by Webster's

Cheese: a list that people lose to, and because they lost, they say it is overpowered. Also a delicious food.

Listen, if you dont want to help me, fine, but dont just mock me in your posts without giving any real advice.

I want one of THE tourney lists. that's all I'm asking for. The ones that score zero comp, and would score negative 20 comp if that were possible.

Uhm, first post? Also just go look the NOVA results...

There really is no such list, as the codex is capable of a wide variety of uber (although it all costs you, which is why BA aren't exactly rocking tournaments left and right).

If you're looking for list advice, throw something together and put it in the appropriate forum. You have a decent start there, layers of AV13 can be quite hard for some armies to deal with. Make sure those Librarians of yours are dreadnoughts for more AV13 and give them Wings as a secondary power so they can get around.

I've never been super-impressed by 5-man squads, but I can see the value of one or two such squads as cheap scoring units and another fast vehicle with heavy gun at a discount.

Here is the list of the NovaCon finalist and 2nd placed:

250 Mephiston
100 Librarian – Shield of Sanguinius, Fear of the Darkness
145 5 Honor Guard – Meltagun x2, flamer x2
50 Rhino
145 5 Honor Guard – Meltagun x2, flamer x2
50 Rhino
140 5 Assault Marines – Remove jump packs, meltagun, infernus pistol, power weapon
16 Rhino – Searchlight
140 5 Assault Marines – Remove jump packs, meltagun, infernus pistol, power weapon
16 Rhino – Searchlight
140 5 Assault Marines – Remove jump packs, meltagun, infernus pistol, power weapon
16 Rhino – Searchlight
140 5 Assault Marines – Remove jump packs, meltagun, infernus pistol, power weapon
16 Rhino – Searchlight
115 Baal Predator – Assault cannon
115 Baal Predator – Assault cannon
135 Predator – Autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons
135 Predator – Autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons
135 Predator – Autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons

wuestenfux wrote:Here is the list of the NovaCon finalist and 2nd placed:

250 Mephiston
100 Librarian – Shield of Sanguinius, Fear of the Darkness
145 5 Honor Guard – Meltagun x2, flamer x2
50 Rhino
145 5 Honor Guard – Meltagun x2, flamer x2
50 Rhino
140 5 Assault Marines – Remove jump packs, meltagun, infernus pistol, power weapon
16 Rhino – Searchlight
140 5 Assault Marines – Remove jump packs, meltagun, infernus pistol, power weapon
16 Rhino – Searchlight
140 5 Assault Marines – Remove jump packs, meltagun, infernus pistol, power weapon
16 Rhino – Searchlight
140 5 Assault Marines – Remove jump packs, meltagun, infernus pistol, power weapon
16 Rhino – Searchlight
115 Baal Predator – Assault cannon
115 Baal Predator – Assault cannon
135 Predator – Autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons
135 Predator – Autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons
135 Predator – Autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons

NAAASTTYYYYYY.


Although meph seems to be a bit of a non-choice lately.

Well, I'm a bit surprised about all the Rhinos, no Razorbacks.
But a Rhino allows two members inside to shoot their weapons.

NovaCon must be full of scrubs, that list is strictly average.

Terminus wrote:NovaCon must be full of scrubs, that list is strictly average.

Well, look at the 1st and 3rd placed. Two SW armies based on Rhinos and Razorbacks, very similar,
with Scouts, Thunderwolfes, and Long Fangs.

Just go to Stelek's blog and type in "blood angels":

www.yesthetruthhurts.com

sheesh

Terminus wrote:NovaCon must be full of scrubs, that list is strictly average.

You seem to forget that there will have been a person using this list very well...

I don't care what list comes out on top. If anyone just grabs any list and hasn't played a lot of games with it, its probably not going to win.

Do you really think guys who win tourniments just threw the list together the night before? Any list requires extensive use in order to make it actually win.

Also while a WAAC list can be a very big rock in the 40K world of rock. paper, sizzors. Sometimes, you do run into paper. Even though sizzors and even other rocks may not have a chance.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Just go to Stelek's blog and type in "blood angels":

www.yesthetruthhurts.com

sheesh

Don't do it. All lists there look almost the same.

I know not to do it. Stelek is a chump. He placed like 23rd in some GT a few years ago, and has been spewing his vitriol ever since, attracting similarly stupid followers. Yet when challenged to put his minis where his mouth is (like when Dash threw down the gauntlet a month ago), he starts dodging the challenge while posting ad hominem attacks on every blog and forum he has access to (a swiftly dwindling number, may I add). The funniest thing about his blog is that he doesn't actually seem to play most of the armies he creates in his "this is the only list worth playing with this codex" posts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:You seem to forget that there will have been a person using this list very well...

I have no doubt that this is exactly the case. I'm challenging the very premise of this thread that there is "THE" WAAC list for BA or any other army for that matter. Anyone who actually buys into that concept is a downright fool. I think this whole thread is a not-so-sly attempt by the OP to get the forum to write a list for him.

Well, I guess we'll not write a list for him. But maybe he can get an idea what direction to go.

Terminus wrote:I know not to do it. Stelek is a chump. He placed like 23rd in some GT a few years ago, and has been spewing his vitriol ever since, attracting similarly stupid followers. Yet when challenged to put his minis where his mouth is (like when Dash threw down the gauntlet a month ago), he starts dodging the challenge while posting ad hominem attacks [snip]

Uhhhh, speaking of ad hominem...

Give the devil his due. Regardless of what you think of the guy personally, there's no denying that he makes really good lists. It's absolutely the best source for what the OP asked for.

yes, but take the lists with a grain of salt.


many so called "WAAC" lists have major flaws or weaknesses. IG Leafblower is a horrendous list that is easy to beat. it relys on getting first turn and blowing you off the table. lists that deep strike or outflank many things just tear leafblower apart.


i am NOT a fan of "fad lists". my philosophy is to make your own lists, develop tactics to go with it, and win on your own merit as a list builder and a gamer.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Uhhhh, speaking of ad hominem...

Give the devil his due. Regardless of what you think of the guy personally, there's no denying that he makes really good lists. It's absolutely the best source for what the OP asked for.

No, it's not ad hominem, it's quite pertinent. The guy lets his mouth write a lot of checks his ass won't cash.

And I disagree about his lists being "really good". They are better than the average garbage you see in the list subforum, and I'll admit the mounted Ironpriest mini-squad is an inspired (though unproven) idea, but I prefer to take list advise from people that actually play the army in question.

I've heard the Las/plas Razorbacks are crazy competitive, with 5-man assault marines inside.
Plus 3 AC/LC Predators.

Crazy boring though, I would much rather play a all-jump pack army.

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, look at the 1st and 3rd placed. Two SW armies based on Rhinos and Razorbacks, very similar,
with Scouts, Thunderwolfes, and Long Fangs.

Then I'm even less impressed with the quality of lists there. Maybe there just weren't any IG players there, or the ones that were present all ascribed to Ailaros' methodology of "guard must fight up close and personal"? The razorback/rhino spam army is an attempt by Space Marines to emulate Chimera spam that I find falls very short of the real thing.

Dash played against a Mech Guard player, and went on a rant about how he hates them so (look at my sig), matter of fact he is a fellow dakkite.

And can someone explain me how razorback spam works?

I get you have cheap scoring units, but it register in my mind how it would be effective.

Terminus wrote:I know not to do it. Stelek is a chump. He placed like 23rd in some GT a few years ago, and has been spewing his vitriol ever since, attracting similarly stupid followers. Yet when challenged to put his minis where his mouth is (like when Dash threw down the gauntlet a month ago), he starts dodging the challenge while posting ad hominem attacks on every blog and forum he has access to (a swiftly dwindling number, may I add). The funniest thing about his blog is that he doesn't actually seem to play most of the armies he creates in his "this is the only list worth playing with this codex" posts.

Just Dave wrote:You seem to forget that there will have been a person using this list very well...

I have no doubt that this is exactly the case. I'm challenging the very premise of this thread that there is "THE" WAAC list for BA or any other army for that matter. Anyone who actually buys into that concept is a downright fool. I think this whole thread is a not-so-sly attempt by the OP to get the forum to write a list for him.

I was mainly challenging the claim that everyone at Nova was a 'scrub'. Hell, I'd advise toning down the opinionating or you may start to sound like stelek!

While I also dislike Stelek, I do recognise he has some talent if bags full of arrogance to go alongside it. But, this thread isn't about Stelek is it...


at OP, Terminus has a point though, there's no such thing as 'the best' army, only 'the best' general. By all means, there are some good lists out there, however it doesn't guarantee that you'll win. Similarly, as has been noted, these lists are often very boring and consist of 'spam'/redundancy.
By all means get a good list, but I'd advise making it your own rather than copy and pasting someone else's. The Army List section is there for a reason, so people can help you improve a list that you have created, not copied.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Dash played against a Mech Guard player, and went on a rant about how he hates them so (look at my sig), matter of fact he is a fellow dakkite.

And can someone explain me how razorback spam works?

I get you have cheap scoring units, but it register in my mind how it would be effective.

That's the thing, razorbacks aren't that cheap.

Like the BA list posted previously.... all you have to do is kill 4 AV11 transports and 20 power armored marines and you're at worst playing for a draw in any game involving scoring (and have 8KPs already)?

And yes, I'm aware of Dash being a presence on these boards, and I've faced him a few times on Vassal (it couldn't be me he is referring to in that sig, I only won 1 of our 2 games and it was very close, and his orks caught me offguard and rocked me in the first one). He's also played [Redacted by moderator] on there a few times and handed him his ass. Of course, [Redacted by moderator] defense was that Dash is a mad hackx0r who is manipulating Vassal's dice roller.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:
And can someone explain me how razorback spam works?

I get you have cheap scoring units, but it register in my mind how it would be effective.

I've been playing mech lists with mixed rhinos/razorbacks since 5th edition and I'd be happy to explain how it works.

It's not cheap scoring units, but rather this:
10 tac marines in a rhino with heavy/special weapon=~225-250 pts
5 tac marines in a razorback with a 35-point upgrade weapon and combi weapon on the sergeant = ~150-175 pts

So you can take about 3 razorbacks instead of 2 rhinos. You give up 5 bodies (15 marines rather than 20) but you keep basically the same firepower, but 3 scoring units instead of 2 and the heavy weapon can move & shoot.

So you take 4-6 razorbacks and support them with whatever cheap massed firepower your codex provides: AC/HB preds, dual-AC or MM dreads, MM/HF or typhoon speeders, long fangs with missiles. Fill up all the Elite/Heavy and some of the Fast slots with these units. You wind up with an army that can pour on ungodly amounts of firepower, can do it while moving, and can soak up way more hits than most other armies can dish out. With 14+ vehicles & walkers at 1500 points, you can afford to trade one-to-one with most opponents and still have half your army standing when the smoke clears. But if you get the first shot off, you can cripple your opponent in the first couple of turns. Then just waltz up and take the objectives.

And you can pretty much always get the first shot by using reserves and deployment correctly.

The army has little or no close combat ability (more on space wolves, vanilla marines substitute combat tactics for assault ability) and depends on sacrificing or defense in depth to keep shooting the enemy army until it's dead.

A characteristic vanilla razor spam army has 3 dreads, 3 dakka preds, 4-7 speeders and 5+ razorbacks with las/plasma turrets and combi-melta sarges.
A characteristic Space Wolf razor spam army has 2-3 units of 5 longfangs with full missile launchers, 4+ speeders, and 6+ razorbacks with las/plasma turrets and melta or flamer inside.

There are two kinds of BA razor spam lists floating around that I'm aware of (to address the OP).
One tries to duplicate a SoB army by taking 4+ units of 5 assault marines w/o jump packs and melta/infernus in razorbacks with heavy flamers, backed up by 3 baals and 3 dreads or preds, and maybe some speeders.
The second kind uses about 4 units of 5 assault marines w/o jump packs with flamer/handflamer in razorbacks with assault cannons, backed up by 3 baals and 3 dreads or preds, and maybe some speeders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and I wouldn't call these "fad" lists. Like I said at the top of my post, I've been playing one version or another of a mech marine list since 5th edition came out. To me, a fad list is one that has to change every time a new book comes out because it's built around a gimmick. But I've made only minor changes to my list--and haven't had to make any changes because of the release of new codecies, BA, nids, space wolves, and the list works as well as it ever has. It has good fundamentals.

Ah, I see.

Thank you.

To addon to what Flavius Infernus said the list as I have played has hard times vs AV 13/14. I tried a jump list as BA as first and migrated to more RB spam which I love. I don't find it boring at all

So I'm still learning but just to let you know their weakness. It's quite tough to pop LRs with just TL AsC and LCs on Preds. I prefer a more "sure fire" way so I opted for 5x Honor Guard with 4x Meltas in a Drop Pod. That way the Drop Pod also blocks their path to stall for even longer while I shoot their stuff.

I am going to try a different variant of weapons on my RBs as well now with 1/2 TL AsC and 1/2 TL Las or TL Plas/Las.

Lots of las/plas, melta guns, and 4 ml dev squads.

I personally run Mech BA:

Termie Epistolary w/ SS; Unleash Rage; Sanguine Sword
Termie Reclusiarch

Assault termies: 2x TH/SS; 3x LC; LRC w/ MM
S. Priest

DC: 3x BP/CCW; 1x TH; 1x PF; 1x PW; 1x Infernus/CCW; Godhammer Land Raider
Tac Squad: MG; PF; combi-melta; PC; Rhino
Tac Squad: MG; PW; combi-melta; PC; Rhino

Dev Squad: 4x ML

I find myself low on bodies but the 2 LR gives me ample cover, I also deploy my Dev's in cover and out of the way of my army.

Reclusiarch and DC go in one LR, the termies, libby, and priest go into the LRC. Both go do their thing with rhinos hiding behind them. Haven't lost a game yet *Knock on wood*

Flavius Infernus wrote:With 14+ vehicles & walkers at 1500 points...

A characteristic vanilla razor spam army has 3 dreads, 3 dakka preds, 4-7 speeders and 5+ razorbacks with las/plasma turrets and combi-melta sarges.
A characteristic Space Wolf razor spam army has 2-3 units of 5 longfangs with full missile launchers, 4+ speeders, and 6+ razorbacks with las/plasma turrets and melta or flamer inside.

Um, how is this accomplished exactly? 5 of those tactical squads, three riflemen dreads, and three dakka preds are already 1505 points, and that's before any landspeeders or HQ.

Well, we can only advise the OP to look for a path to go.
RB spam is one route and DoA spam is another.

Terminus wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:With 14+ vehicles & walkers at 1500 points...

A characteristic vanilla razor spam army has 3 dreads, 3 dakka preds, 4-7 speeders and 5+ razorbacks with las/plasma turrets and combi-melta sarges.
A characteristic Space Wolf razor spam army has 2-3 units of 5 longfangs with full missile launchers, 4+ speeders, and 6+ razorbacks with las/plasma turrets and melta or flamer inside.

Um, how is this accomplished exactly? 5 of those tactical squads, three riflemen dreads, and three dakka preds are already 1505 points, and that's before any landspeeders or HQ.

Ooops, shoulda said 11-12 vehicles at 1500. I prefer the 105 point dreads over riflemen, and a basic 100 point librarian.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:With 14+ vehicles & walkers at 1500 points...

A characteristic vanilla razor spam army has 3 dreads, 3 dakka preds, 4-7 speeders and 5+ razorbacks with las/plasma turrets and combi-melta sarges.
A characteristic Space Wolf razor spam army has 2-3 units of 5 longfangs with full missile launchers, 4+ speeders, and 6+ razorbacks with las/plasma turrets and melta or flamer inside.

Um, how is this accomplished exactly? 5 of those tactical squads, three riflemen dreads, and three dakka preds are already 1505 points, and that's before any landspeeders or HQ.

Ooops, shoulda said 11-12 vehicles at 1500. I prefer the 105 point dreads over riflemen, and a basic 100 point librarian.

Dreads with multimeltas? They are just one-hit wonders.
I take Dreads with assault cannons and heavy flamers. Very versatile.

A razor spam army (BA or vanilla) can only get multimeltas in a couple of places: mainly speeders and dreads. Each dread only gets one shot, but there are 3 of them. The dreads run behind the razorbacks and discourage the approach of heavy tanks, mainly land raiders, but also vindicators. Assault cannons and riflemen can't do that.

Well, it would eventually be better to run the Razorbacks behind a wall of AV13 vehicles
so that they eventually get a 3+ cover save?

I like 1 libby, 3 rifleman dreads, and 2 land speeders w/ mm as a basis for a lot of my lists and go from there. 580 points already, but covers my heavies, FA, and HQ choices lol

Sure, the nice thing about mech armies in general, and razorback armies in particular, is you have options.

If your opponent has no long-ranged weapons, you can sit across the board and snipe at him. If he has no close-up durability, you can zoom across the board in conga lines and overrun him. If he doesn't have anything that can displace marine troops, you can camp out in the middle of the table and hold the objectives/quarters. If he drops, you can set up a parking lot/kill zones. If he hugely outguns you, you can play the reserves game.

That's why it's not boring to play, even if it arguably looks boring on paper.

Zid: You can play a vanilla army with this kind of core.
But BA Razorback spam is cheaper when compared with the vanilla or SW variants.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Ooops, shoulda said 11-12 vehicles at 1500. I prefer the 105 point dreads over riflemen, and a basic 100 point librarian.

Hmm, it'd be interesting to see how my own 1500-point armor spam army would fare against this. Twelve AV12 vehicles vs. ten or so AV11-13 vehicles (I don't count landspeeders as vehicles).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:But BA Razorback spam is cheaper when compared with the vanilla or SW variants.

I think BA razorback squads work a tad better because their vehicles are fast, you get a discount on them (so they end up costing at base HALF of the other variants), they can take a special weapon in a five man squad without buying a Sgt. an expensive one-shot gun (and can add a handy pistol if they want to), and if there is a Sanguinary Priest/Honor Guard nearby, they are a bit more survivable than 5-man squads from other Chapters (although that's still not saying an awful lot).

Hmm, it'd be interesting to see how my own 1500-point armor spam army would fare against this. Twelve AV12 vehicles vs. ten or so AV11-13 vehicles (I don't count landspeeders as vehicles).

I guess you mean 6 Dreads in Pods, or what?

Terminus wrote:I know not to do it. Stelek is a chump. He placed like 23rd in some GT a few years ago, and has been spewing his vitriol ever since, attracting similarly stupid followers. Yet when challenged to put his minis where his mouth is (like when Dash threw down the gauntlet a month ago), he starts dodging the challenge while posting ad hominem attacks on every blog and forum he has access to (a swiftly dwindling number, may I add). The funniest thing about his blog is that he doesn't actually seem to play most of the armies he creates in his "this is the only list worth playing with this codex" posts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:You seem to forget that there will have been a person using this list very well...

I have no doubt that this is exactly the case. I'm challenging the very premise of this thread that there is "THE" WAAC list for BA or any other army for that matter. Anyone who actually buys into that concept is a downright fool. I think this whole thread is a not-so-sly attempt by the OP to get the forum to write a list for him.

Stelek beat dash. And the GT tourney rules suck balls, have you read the new throne of skulls setup? It's utter crap, spewing from the bottomless cesspit known as Jervis Johnson's undersized brain.

Terminus wrote:

And yes, I'm aware of Dash being a presence on these boards, and I've faced him a few times on Vassal (it couldn't be me he is referring to in that sig, I only won 1 of our 2 games and it was very close, and his orks caught me offguard and rocked me in the first one). He's also played Stelek on there a few times and handed him his ass. Of course, Stelek's defense was that Dash is a mad hackx0r who is manipulating Vassal's dice roller.

You are full of it, sir. I read YTTH often enough to know Stelek's strengths, and his weaknesses, but one thing I know is that he does *not* play on vassal. He disparages it as being not "real" 40k, which I agree with. Real 40k is 3 dimensional. The only time Stelek and Dash played was at the Nova Open pre-event gaming, and Stelek won by a 250 VP margin.

I'm pretty sure you've been trolling this thread.

OK, mine is only 1750, but you can always tweak the troops:

HQ

Mephiston= 250

Librarian Epistolary w/ Terminator Armour and Storm Shield= 195
Blood Lance+ The Sanguine Sword powers

Honour Guard
Chapter Banner
Blood Champion
Thunder Hammer
Thunder Hammer
in Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon= 270


Elites

Furioso Librarian Dreadnought
in Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon=220
Blood Lance+ Shield of Sanguinius Powers

Furioso Librarian Dreadnought
in Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon=220
Blood Lance+ Shield of Sanguinius Powers

Furioso Librarian Dreadnought
in Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon=220
Blood Lance+ Smite Powers


Troops

10 Man Assualt Squad w/ Power Weapon, Hand Flamer and 2x Flamer
in Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon= 235

10 Man Assualt Squad w/ Power Weapon, Hand Flamer and 2x Flamer
in Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon= 235


Fast Attack

5 Vanguard Veterans w/ 4 Power Weapons and Jump Packs= 235


Heavy Support

Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon and Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon for Mephiston= 170

Total= 1750 exactly

Jabbdo wrote: And the GT tourney rules suck balls, have you read the new throne of skulls setup? It's utter crap, spewing from the bottomless cesspit known as Jervis Johnson's undersized brain.

Ew, I hate Jervis Johnson's "rules". The man defines bland.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:

Hmm, it'd be interesting to see how my own 1500-point armor spam army would fare against this. Twelve AV12 vehicles vs. ten or so AV11-13 vehicles (I don't count landspeeders as vehicles).

I guess you mean 6 Dreads in Pods, or what?

No, more like something along these lines:

CCS w/4 meltas, Chimera
Veterans w/3 meltas, Chimera
Veterans w/3 meltas, Chimera
Platoon Command Squad w/4 flamers, Chimera
Infantry Squad w/ AC, Chimera
Infantry Squad w/ AC, Chimera
Vendetta
Vendetta
2x Hydra Squadron
Medusa w/Breacher Shells
Manticore

Against armor, that's 8 TL autocannons, 6TL lascannons, d3 S10 ordnance barrage, and a S10+2d6 AP1 blast at long range; and 10 BS4 meltaguns (that can be twin-linked) at short range.
Against troops, the autocannons and manticore are good, the PCS is very deadly, and all of the vehicles except the hydras and vendettas have hull heavy flamers.

Terminus wrote:

Jabbdo wrote: And the GT tourney rules suck balls, have you read the new throne of skulls setup? It's utter crap, spewing from the bottomless cesspit known as Jervis Johnson's undersized brain.

Ew, I hate Jervis Johnson's "rules". The man defines bland.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:

Hmm, it'd be interesting to see how my own 1500-point armor spam army would fare against this. Twelve AV12 vehicles vs. ten or so AV11-13 vehicles (I don't count landspeeders as vehicles).

I guess you mean 6 Dreads in Pods, or what?

No, more like something along these lines:

CCS w/4 meltas, Chimera
Veterans w/3 meltas, Chimera
Veterans w/3 meltas, Chimera
Platoon Command Squad w/4 flamers, Chimera
Infantry Squad w/ AC, Chimera
Infantry Squad w/ AC, Chimera
Vendetta
Vendetta
2x Hydra Squadron
Medusa w/Breacher Shells
Manticore

Against armor, that's 8 TL autocannons, 6TL lascannons, d3 S10 ordnance barrage, and a S10+2d6 AP1 blast at long range; and 10 BS4 meltaguns (that can be twin-linked) at short range.
Against troops, the autocannons and manticore are good, the PCS is very deadly, and all of the vehicles except the hydras and vendettas have hull heavy flamers.

Would be a challenging match. Would probably turn into a reserves game, the way that games between solid mech lists do with competent players.

Also I agree with the sentiment above that BA razorback spam is a different animal because of the fast vehicles. Also the assault cannon razor is actually viable for BA razorback armies because it's not crippled by the 24" range.

Well, BA mech armies have advantages over vanilla or SW mech armies:
Tanks are more mobile, they can move 6'' and fire all their weapons.
Tanks can move faster, 18'', which is very useful for contesting an objective or redeployment.

that is balanced by their cost.

even though BA razorbacks get a hefty discount it is coming out of the cost for the assault marines who are more expensive then vanilla.

It's not the cost of the vehicle that matters so much as the cost of the unit.

5 vanilla marines with combi-flamer sarge in a razorback with 35-point weapon=175 pts

5 grey hunters with a flamer in a razorback with 35-point weapon = 150 pts

5 BA assault marines with a flamer in a razorback with a 35-point weapon = 160 points

In spite of the advantages of their vehicles and weapon selection, BA razorback spam units are still more points-efficient than vanilla marines, and nearly as efficient as space wolves.

However, BA Razorbacks are fast, while vanilla /SW Razorbacks are not.

wuestenfux wrote:However, BA Razorbacks are fast, while vanilla /SW Razorbacks are not.

Exactly. Gray Templar suggested that BA razorbacks are more expensive to compensate for their advantage of being fast, and near the beginning of this thread someone suggested that BA razorbacks are too expensive to be viable. But I'm suggesting that, when you look at the cost of the whole unit and not just the razorback, they cost about the same even though they're fast.

The BA codex is versatile and there are too many solid builds to declare one of them "The WAAC BA Build"

Well, what are the solid builds?
Razorback spam, AV 13 spam, DoA, and balanced(?).

I run what could be derived as a Razorback-spam army on vassal with Blood Angels, just to see how the army performs prior to purchasing it.

It revolves around 4 5-man Assault squads; 2 w/ meltas and infernus pistol Sergeants, 2 w/ flamers and hand flamer Sergeants, a Librarian and 3 Sang Priests. All in TL-AC Razors. Coupled with this are two TL-AC and HB Baals and a Librarian Dread.

At the moment it works very well upto the point where the Razorbacks start getting killed. As they constitute a considerable sum of my short-med range firepower having 2-3 'Shaken' results does hurt. Luckily the speed enables me to find cover quickly and also allows me to disgorge my Assault squads where I want them.

I also find that the 5-man squads, whilst significantly brutal on the charge (Sang Priest force multiplier helps considerably) they do not withstand a whole lot of punishment. I'll probably try subbing a few of the Razorbacks for Rhinos with larger squads and see how that fares instead.

It's by no means a WAAC army, but its great fun to actually have some manouverabilty with Marines.

L. Wrex

Wouldn't such a list loose to massed long range high str weaponry (tau w/ missile pods, broadsides etc?) as you'd be slowed down then picked apart as you closed on foot...

Terminus wrote:NovaCon must be full of scrubs, that list is strictly average.

Wow.
Can you kindly show us your 40k resume? What are your placings and achievements for the past 3 years at any GTs? I m sure alot of the people here will be interested to know.

Davicus wrote:

Terminus wrote:NovaCon must be full of scrubs, that list is strictly average.

Wow.
Can you kindly show us your 40k resume? What are your placings and achievements for the past 3 years at any GTs? I m sure alot of the people here will be interested to know.

Its quite interesting to see that the top placed lists are based on SW Razorback spam (first and third) and BA Rhino spam (second).
Those lists seem not to be WAAC lists.
Where were the IG army picking apart those lists?

There's no such thing as a WAAC list.

WAAC means that you're a cheater. So I guess I'll amend my previous statement: a WAAC list is one that is either over points, or does not follow the FOC.

willydstyle wrote:There's no such thing as a WAAC list.

WAAC means that you're a cheater. So I guess I'll amend my previous statement: a WAAC list is one that is either over points, or does not follow the FOC.

But this hypothesis is based on the assumption that all codices are balanced.
The better question would be whether there is a list close to WAAC.
This brings me to the question if there are races out there that have no list close to WAAC.
Necrons?

No it's not, it's based on the fact that a person who is really trying to "win at all costs" does not follow the rules; cheats in some way.

Therefore, any list that follows the rules cannot be "WAAC."

wuestenfux wrote:

Davicus wrote:

Terminus wrote:NovaCon must be full of scrubs, that list is strictly average.

Wow.
Can you kindly show us your 40k resume? What are your placings and achievements for the past 3 years at any GTs? I m sure alot of the people here will be interested to know.

Its quite interesting to see that the top placed lists are based on SW Razorback spam (first and third) and BA Rhino spam (second).
Those lists seem not to be WAAC lists.
Where were the IG army picking apart those lists?

The tournament removed KP's for VP's = it made MSU better = the best players recognized it = MSU lists won

Agreed with willydstyle about WAAC lists, I think you are thinking about "cheesy" or the less controversial "hard" lists.

And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever

wuestenfux wrote:

Davicus wrote:

Terminus wrote:NovaCon must be full of scrubs, that list is strictly average.

Wow.
Can you kindly show us your 40k resume? What are your placings and achievements for the past 3 years at any GTs? I m sure alot of the people here will be interested to know.

Its quite interesting to see that the top placed lists are based on SW Razorback spam (first and third) and BA Rhino spam (second).
Those lists seem not to be WAAC lists.
Where were the IG army picking apart those lists?

Razorback spam IS a very competitive list. I m not sure why some people think otherwise. Or is WAAC something else other than being competitive?


Anyway, still waiting to see how "PRO" Terminus is.

Phototoxin wrote:Wouldn't such a list loose to massed long range high str weaponry (tau w/ missile pods, broadsides etc?) as you'd be slowed down then picked apart as you closed on foot...

Quite. But the Baals shield the majority of the Razorbacks which blocks LOS completely. Missile pods vs AV13 isn't nearly as effective as VS AV11, and its quite common for cover to impede/nullify the shooting of many of the heavier weapons. Fast vehicles coupled with the use of smoke launchers means in perfect circumstances I get a 32" charge range in 2 Turns. (18" move Turn 1, 2" disembark, 6" move, 6" assault.) Once the troops are dropped off the Razorbacks can fire with impunity or use their bulk to block LOS/restrict the enemy movement.

It's a lot of fun to whizz around the board at high speeds. Now I know how Orks feel

L. Wrex

Illumini wrote:The tournament removed KP's for VP's = it made MSU better = the best players recognized it = MSU lists won

That would do the trick, although I'm still ashamed of the local IG players for not making a better showing. IG is basically MSU by its nature, although they are hardly elite.

willydstyle wrote:There's no such thing as a WAAC list.

WAAC means that you're a cheater. So I guess I'll amend my previous statement: a WAAC list is one that is either over points, or does not follow the FOC.

That doesn't jive with the notion of WAAC gamers and fluff bunnies that gets bandied about. WAAC doesn't necessarily mean cheating, it just means that the player only cares about winning, not about theme or fluff. In the context of this thread the OP is asking about the list that a WAAC gamer would make from the BA codex. Essentially he wants to know what is the single strongest build you can get out of the book.

Arschbombe wrote:

willydstyle wrote:There's no such thing as a WAAC list.

WAAC means that you're a cheater. So I guess I'll amend my previous statement: a WAAC list is one that is either over points, or does not follow the FOC.

That doesn't jive with the notion of WAAC gamers and fluff bunnies that gets bandied about. WAAC doesn't necessarily mean cheating, it just means that the player only cares about winning, not about theme or fluff. In the context of this thread the OP is asking about the list that a WAAC gamer would make from the BA codex. Essentially he wants to know what is the single strongest build you can get out of the book.

That's a very legitimate question.
I think the 2nd placed BA gamer at NovaCon fielded a quite competitive army although there were no KP but VP.

If i was a WAAC gamer(assuming i didn't shoot myself out of guilt) i would make a list that abused all the Special rules that my army had as much as possable.


so 60 assault marines with 2 meltaguns and a PW per squad.

3 Sanguinary priests(2 with Jpacks, 1 with termi armor)

Brother Corbolo

6 Assault Terminators(1/2 with LCs, 1/2 with TH/SS)

Furioso Libby with Wings and Blood lance

1 Landraider redeemer

2 Vindicators

3 Baal Predators with HBs and Assault cannons


wall of assault marines with FNP followed by fast AV13 and FNP Terminators.

Grey Templar wrote:If i was a WAAC gamer(assuming i didn't shoot myself out of guilt) i would make a list that abused all the Special rules that my army had as much as possable.


so 60 assault marines with 2 meltaguns and a PW per squad.

3 Sanguinary priests(2 with Jpacks, 1 with termi armor)

Brother Corbolo

6 Assault Terminators(1/2 with LCs, 1/2 with TH/SS)

Furioso Libby with Wings and Blood lance

1 Landraider redeemer

2 Vindicators

3 Baal Predators with HBs and Assault cannons


wall of assault marines with FNP followed by fast AV13 and FNP Terminators.

How many points would this be.
Wait, I guess I could field this army after buying 10 more Assault Marines.

looks like 2500 mebbe?

stompydakka wrote:looks like 2500 mebbe?

Its maybe an Ard Boyz contender.

Davicus wrote:

Terminus wrote:NovaCon must be full of scrubs, that list is strictly average.

Wow.
Can you kindly show us your 40k resume? What are your placings and achievements for the past 3 years at any GTs? I m sure alot of the people here will be interested to know.

hahahahah you got served.

its not the list that matters, its the person playing it.

^ +9000 to this guy

While the player behind the list plays a larger role than many would like to believe, it's a bit too simplistic to say it's *all* player skill that matters to victory.

A good player with an average list can beat a poor player with a good list, but if you're a good player with an average list, what do you do when you go up against a good player with a good list?

This is why I advocate that everyone play their best, and bring their best lists all the time, because it's the only *truly* level playing field.

+1 willydstyle.

As I see it, every tourney LIST should be WAAC when trying to win games (as opposed to aiming for painting/theme/comp/etc.). One does not try to win games by deliberately adding sub-par units.

Tourney players, not so much. They just need to play to win.

You know why they call it "love" when you have no points in tennis? heh

Edited to clarify.

WAAC = powergaming for me. There are plenty of loopholes that can be stretched as far as a tournament will allow. It may be difficult to accomplish that in it's entirety but powergaming simply implies a larger investment towards actually winning games. It could be possible that on average, you really can't WAAC w/o cheating in some way, even if those methods are not strictly cheating.

'THE powergamer list' is not a particularly specific question. Once you add what is likely to be faced at your average tournament, it becomes much easier to tailor even further to a specific tournament. The second another player sees your new suit coming, they can do much the same themselves. Balance and redundancy are the only ways to avoid facing fellow tailors, or people that happen to have nice suits already.

Novacon had a few things going that made some changes to what you would normally see.

VPs instead of KPs let spammy lists do well. Also mission 1 was DOW deployment plus night fighting so I think a lot of guard armies got shafted from the get go with just an unfortunate mission selection on the early game. Then having to play against the top winners for the remainder of the con.

Jayden63 wrote:Novacon had a few things going that made some changes to what you would normally see.

VPs instead of KPs let spammy lists do well. Also mission 1 was DOW deployment plus night fighting so I think a lot of guard armies got shafted from the get go with just an unfortunate mission selection on the early game. Then having to play against the top winners for the remainder of the con.

Well, they shoulda been prepared to play with nightfighting rules. After all, the missions were available for them to look at from the get go iirc.

The results of NovaCon should not be overemphasized, since (as said) there were no missions with KPs.
I remember that the last two GTs here each had two missions with KPs (out of five).

wuestenfux wrote:The results of NovaCon should not be overemphasized, since (as said) there were no missions with KPs.
I remember that the last two GTs here each had two missions with KPs (out of five).

Well, of course. NOTHING should be overemphasized, but on the same note it shouldn't be scoffed at for not having KP's either. Razorspam is a popular list, even in tournaments that use KP's for some missions. I don't think that having VP's influenced people's lists as much as some would like to think.

Not to mention that the KP system discourages playing certain lists. VP's, imo, doesn't because no matter what (unless you cheat) you're going to have the same amount of VP's on the board.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:The results of NovaCon should not be overemphasized, since (as said) there were no missions with KPs.
I remember that the last two GTs here each had two missions with KPs (out of five).

Well, of course. NOTHING should be overemphasized, but on the same note it shouldn't be scoffed at for not having KP's either. Razorspam is a popular list, even in tournaments that use KP's for some missions. I don't think that having VP's influenced people's lists as much as some would like to think.

Not to mention that the KP system discourages playing certain lists. VP's, imo, doesn't because no matter what (unless you cheat) you're going to have the same amount of VP's on the board.

Then you lack some experience in playing with VP's. VP's punish point-heavy units and point-light units get a boost. When you change to VP's, it makes deathstars much worse - not essentially a bad thing, but it certainly does influence how good certain units are.

phantommaster wrote:OK, mine is only 1750, but you can always tweak the troops:

HQ

Mephiston= 250

Heavy Support

Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon and Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon for Mephiston= 170

Total= 1750 exactly

Snipped a bit, but when you say that the drop pod is for Mephiston, do you mean he uses it for cover? Unless we've been playing it wrong, only the unit the dedicated transport was purchased for can use it initially, and since there is no "later" for Drop Pods... Otherwise, I'd be snagging rides for my Iron Priests :-)

Also, do you find it that useful to have so many Blood Lances?I guess only playing one I've found the Wings power far more useful... Jump packing DN's providing cover for the rest of the lads...

Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon and Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon for Mephiston= 170

Can Mephiston have a Pod?
He embarks in the orbit.
However, I guess a unit can only embark on the board to a dedicated transport that is not its own.

Yeah, there is no way for Mephiston to get any use out of that pod.

Mephiston is best used in a mech (non-Pod) army.
He can approach the enemy unhindered behind the wall of steel coffins.