Im a huge fan of 40k, but I could never get into the black library, and even tho Ive been in the hobby for several years, I dont know much about this Goto guy.

Is he the Kotick of the black library? (Kotick is the head at activision, and one of his major speeches before the release of modern warfare 2 was to say that he wanted to instill a feeling of fear, pessimism and...hate (was it?) in the gaming industry, pretty much wants all gamers to die)

So yeah, and Id like it to be a detailed answer thanks!

C.S. Goto was a terrible writer. His stuff is on par with Stephanie Meyer in that it's self-fulfilling fanwank that never should be published by a serious publishing agency.

He also had no real grasp of the background of 40k, to the point of having Eldar/Space Marine romances(which admittedly happened during Rogue Trader...but have been retconned out since), Marines wielding multilasers, Eldar Farseers surfing on Falcon Grav-Tanks with their turrets removed to make room for a surfboard, etc.

He's why they now are far, far more authoritarian with their authors knowing the lore.

Actually, I could imagine a marine using a multilaser, but was that an emergency/desperation thing or a pretty common occurence?

He sounds bad, But i want moar! (also that whole marine with multilaser thing reminds me of fallout 3)

I would actually appreciate it if for 5 points, IG heavy weapons teams could take multilazors.

That would be scary. More shots then an AC HWT, but can still take out AV11 just by pure number of shots...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That would be scary. More shots then an AC HWT, but can still take out AV11 just by pure number of shots...

Then there are things like how everything from Tyranids to Space Marines are described as 'braying' whenever they make a loud noise.

And paraphrasing, those clever children destroying a Falcon by stabbing the driver through the viewing slit with a sharpened stick, and blowing up the turret by sticking a rock down the barrel of the brightlance.

Doesn't the falcon have a canopy? And the bright lance thing made me lol.

Wait... Brightlances have barrels now?

Ok goto sounds really bad now. Thats insanely bad....

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Actually, I could imagine a marine using a multilaser, but was that an emergency/desperation thing or a pretty common occurence?

Marines wouldn't use multilasers. Bolters give them more flexibility, since you can load variable shells in them.

But that's not the point. He basically had more Marines toting multilasers than bolters.

Ah, now that is just wierd. Though when I said I could imagine marines using lasers I meant that like they ran out of ammo and really, really need a gun.

If descriptions of Dawn of War: Tempest are to be believed, it apparently consists primarily of some Eldar farseer suffering 200 pages of torture porn. Is this accurate?

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Doesn't the falcon have a canopy?

Congratulations! You have now proven yourself smarter than C. S. Goto.

I know what you meant, but we're not talking "Oh, there's an unmanned multilaser Chimera over there! I'm out of ammo, gonna go man that!".

I'm meaning they went into combat with a multilaser that was described as a "gatling styled multilaser" and a backpack powercell.

Remember, there's a reason multilasers are fitted on vehicles and not carried as support weapons. They're too ineffective as the second, because of the ammunition requirements.

How did this guy get through to publishing this drivel?

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:




How did this guy get through to publishing this drivel?

That is an excellent question, who the **** was Goto editor?

Kanluwen wrote:C.S. Goto was a terrible writer. His stuff is on par with Stephanie Meyer in that it's self-fulfilling fanwank that never should be published by a serious publishing agency.

He also had no real grasp of the background of 40k, to the point of having Eldar/Space Marine romances(which admittedly happened during Rogue Trader...but have been retconned out since), Marines wielding multilasers, Eldar Farseers surfing on Falcon Grav-Tanks with their turrets removed to make room for a surfboard, etc.

He's why they now are far, far more authoritarian with their authors knowing the lore.

Everything said here is the truth, and nothing but.
I have never felt so much unreasoning hate for an author before or since Goto. It's why I now resemble Atrocitus due to massive rage overdosage. Thank whatever god you live by that he is gone.

one Goto book i heard about had this Heretical content.


Space Marines fighting tyranids.


Lascannon marines is popping Gaunts and then he hit the Carnifex(who was earlier called a Lictor) with the lascannon instead of shooting at it while it was coming straight at him.

a Terminator gets dragged into the swarm by a SPORE MINE's tentacles.

the nearby Landraider during the course of the scene changes from Land Raider into a Razorback, then into a Predator, then back into a Land Raider. the Space Marine captain directing this farce is surfing on top of the tank while firing his plasma pistol at the rippers swarming the tank.


this is all contained within the first 3 pages.

I just burst a blood vessel in my temple reading that.
Damnit.

No one's going to mention the Dawn of War novel, where a Blood Raven Terminator and a Kasrkin Soldier become best friends and ride into battle together on top of a Razorback?

I wish I was making that up...

Here are some examples of CS Goto style writing, courtesy of Dakka users:

Gwar wrote:Also, The Empra had a Multilazor which was the bestest multilazor ever and he used his multilazor to shoot thew nastybad enemies of the Empra because they refused to use multilazors and then Horus said "I want the bestest multilazor" so he jumped into a Razorback and then backflipped off it just as it changed into a Land Raider then shot the Empra with his Multilazors.

Gwar wrote:The Primarchs were originally going to be 20 Copypasta superdooperdoods, but then the Three nastybad Chaos Gods used their mindlazors to try and kapewpew the primarchs which didn't work because The Empra was the bestest power in the whole world however so was able to stop them but he had forgotten to have his Shreddies that morning so couldn't stop them from being stoled so instead he psychically protected them and guided them to land on planets where they would grow up to be all awesome and special but because he didn't have any milk that day because he forgot his Cornflakes some of the Primarchs were touched by the warp and so became evil but not really

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:The Blud Rehvens are a very special chapter of Sphess Muhreens who are good at zapping the nastybad enemy with their mindpowers Pew Pew! They are so special that no one knows who the daddy sphess muhreens are, not even the EMPRAH! But people think it's the Thousand sons because Blud Rehvens have lots of magic guys who shoot mind lazers at people! They even lead squads with Mind lazer shooting! They like reading and learning stuff a lot, but OH NO! The nastybad librarian went to kay-oss and got the 5th company pew pewed, so now they are emo and wear lots of emo stuff on their armour! Gabriel Angelos leads the 3rd company and he is the manliest sphess muhreenho kills Daemons and has a big hammer and blows up his planet and don't afraid of anything. Even Eldar girls have wet dreams about him! Indrick Boreal led the Blud Rehvens on Kronus, but he is deaded now because his Steel Rehn didn't work :(, even though many of his battle brothers were stehtioned in Sphess ready for multiple Sim-ul-tae-nious and deady deep strikes! And all Blud Rehvens carry MULTILAZORS (which pleases them), and their terminators who fight for the emprah are bestest budies with Karskin and do backflips and ride Land raiders that transform into Razorbacks then back into Land raiders HURR!!!!

And there was another one about Horus fighting the Empra but I cannot find it now.

Of course, the above is of a far higher quality than any of C.S. Goto's Writings, as we are only human.

legends of marines goto one is just stupid
it has mantis warrior liberian armed what i think is singing spear ambushed in close range by thunderfire cannon

The most recent photo of C.S Goto hard at work.

Gwar! wrote:Here are some examples of CS Goto style writing, courtesy of Dakka users:

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:The Blud Rehvens are a very special chapter of Sphess Muhreens who are good at zapping the nastybad enemy with their mindpowers Pew Pew! They are so special that no one knows who the daddy sphess muhreens are, not even the EMPRAH! But people think it's the Thousand sons because Blud Rehvens have lots of magic guys who shoot mind lazers at people! They even lead squads with Mind lazer shooting! They like reading and learning stuff a lot, but OH NO! The nastybad librarian went to kay-oss and got the 5th company pew pewed, so now they are emo and wear lots of emo stuff on their armour! Gabriel Angelos leads the 3rd company and he is the manliest sphess muhreenho kills Daemons and has a big hammer and blows up his planet and don't afraid of anything. Even Eldar girls have wet dreams about him! Indrick Boreal led the Blud Rehvens on Kronus, but he is deaded now because his Steel Rehn didn't work :(, even though many of his battle brothers were stehtioned in Sphess ready for multiple Sim-ul-tae-nious and deady deep strikes! And all Blud Rehvens carry MULTILAZORS (which pleases them), and their terminators who fight for the emprah are bestest budies with Karskin and do backflips and ride Land raiders that transform into Razorbacks then back into Land raiders HURR!!!!

Thank you. I now feel validated.
Also, I heard vague talk of a farseer getting psuedo-whipped by a marine: can anyone confirm this so I can add it to my list of "Why Dark Eldar are better than Eldar"?

I also see that the Rainbow Space Marines codex was written by Goto.

More than likely.

H.B.M.C. wrote:No one's going to mention the Dawn of War novel, where a Blood Raven Terminator and a Kasrkin Soldier become best friends and ride into battle together on top of a Razorback?

I wish I was making that up...

I can almost give a pass on a Marine and Guardsman "becoming friends" simply because the wording could have been similar to what happened with the Blood Angels/Necron v. Tyranid debacle(where people were confusing inaction against each other as a sign of "Best Friends Foreverest!" but the riding into battle on top of a Razorback is heresy.

Also, I don't think anyone really read the Dawn of War novels. By then, Goto's colors with Eldar Prophecy and his Deathwatch books were obvious.

Is it just me or does Goto think vehicles are actually transformers? Robots in disguise!

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Is it just me or does Goto think vehicles are actually transformers? Robots in disguise!

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:No one's going to mention the Dawn of War novel, where a Blood Raven Terminator and a Kasrkin Soldier become best friends and ride into battle together on top of a Razorback?

I wish I was making that up...

I can almost give a pass on a Marine and Guardsman "becoming friends" simply because the wording could have been similar to what happened with the Blood Angels/Necron v. Tyranid debacle(where people were confusing inaction against each other as a sign of "Best Friends Foreverest!" but the riding into battle on top of a Razorback is heresy.

Also, I don't think anyone really read the Dawn of War novels. By then, Goto's colors with Eldar Prophecy and his Deathwatch books were obvious.

It was the cover of the Deathwatch novels that got me. The very idea of a Deathwatch marine and an Eldar in the same room as each other with the marine not pointing his bolter at the xenos' head ready to blow it clean off her shoulders was ludicrous.

I don't blame Goto for that nonsense - I blame the BL for publishing it! I see that BL spends as much time proofreading their books as... well, GW.

dietrich wrote:I don't blame Goto for that nonsense - I blame the BL for publishing it! I see that BL spends as much time proofreading their books as... well, GW.

What do you mean? Games Workshop don't proofr... Ooooooh.

Much like alot of the laws regarding rape are created in reaction to heinous events, C.S. Goto heralded a new era of Black Library's draconian rule on their authors.

I like to call it "Goto's Law", personally.

AlexHolker wrote:If descriptions of Dawn of War: Tempest are to be believed, it apparently consists primarily of some Eldar farseer suffering 200 pages of torture porn. Is this accurate?

No, it was 180 pages And the farseer was female and already injured and helpless at the beginning.

Other examples:
Eldar Prophecy: Guardians try to block Warp Spiders ... and they succeed! The craftworld is led by a Slaanesh worshipping Seer council.
Warrior Coven: Ulthwé's Seer council is led by a Slaanesh Worshipper. She and Eldrad (!) collaborate to sacrifice the only possible Shining Spear Exarch to Slaanesh worshipping Dark Eldar.
Tears of Blood: A fat Slaanesh worshipping Farseer stalks a female child Farseer, he can be seen drooling (!) under his hood. The story ends as the helpless and blind child is led away by said Farseer.
Dawn of War Tempest: Features the best warriors of the Eldar: Harlequins. They are mostly characterized as "piles of mutilated bodies" after a minute of fighting. No Slaanesh worshippers here, they die too early

You get the idea, and he was responsible for all Eldar prose for several years!
BTW: No spoiler brackets here, as hiding this would be a spoiler!

Goto also seems to have a fetish for Tank surfing.

... oh, and Tyranids and Necrons bray (!) according to him.

Kanluwen wrote:C.S. Goto was a terrible writer. His stuff is on par with Stephanie Meyer in that it's self-fulfilling fanwank that never should be published by a serious publishing agency.

He also had no real grasp of the background of 40k, to the point of having Eldar/Space Marine romances(which admittedly happened during Rogue Trader...but have been retconned out since), Marines wielding multilasers, Eldar Farseers surfing on Falcon Grav-Tanks with their turrets removed to make room for a surfboard, etc.

He's why they now are far, far more authoritarian with their authors knowing the lore.

Wow. He sounds like a gak head

Who else remembers the 50 pages of absolute crap written by Goto in Bringers of Death,the reason I wake up screaming and drenched in sweat atleast twice a month, Menshad Korum?

The more I read of this thread the less I actually trust GW ;D

We may have Goto to thank for the BL actually policing and standardising their own fluff(at least in a way that it doesn't contradict itself within the same story)

Even the fluff I wrote for my chapter is better than that!
And that stuff I wrote was pathetic!!! I now will rewrite that fluff I made so I cannot be compared to Goto.

(And now for a terrible pun!)
I guess with him, the Eldar are going to Goto hell.

the flames of eternal damnation and the eternal attentions of Slannesh are too good for Goto's work.

How bout Nurgle's rot?

Nah, Nurgle's a nice guy when you get to know him.

great sense of Humor, rather fatherly and wants to solv your problems.

who cares if he doesn't shower?

Not the Yu-gi-oh players, that's for sure. >.>

I say we destroy all of C.S Goto's work in the way most appropriate: Shooting a multilasor while tank surfing.

You know, I've seen his name on books several times now but so far haven't gotten around to buying them yet, but after reading this thread...I hate this goto guy...

The Internet works!

JSK-Fox wrote:
(And now for a terrible pun!)
I guess with him, the Eldar are going to Goto hell.

1) Bad pun is bad.

2) Thankfully Goto has been banished from whence he came, the new Eldar novel 'Path of the Warrior' is infinitely better. Well...Stephanie Myer's work is better so that doesn't say much. My point is for the first time we actually have a good Eldar book, even by regular bookwriting standards.

Goto and da emprha battlded for hours , not hourus but goto ending in him dying and the black libary reteated and got drunk and made some crap books and this is why the emprha is in the golden throne , by reading gotos books.

Actually, the C.S. Goto books were the first things 40k I ever read (after i saw a DoW wallpaper on google and realized I couldn't afford it...)
I didn't think they were terrible back then, but they sure confused me a fethton. I remember several occasions where I had to go back and re-read entire pages because I had absolutely no idea where a certain unit or enemy appeared from.
He tended to just have "OH BY THE WAY SIX THOUSAND MOAR" moments, where enemies or SM or something would just appear out of no where. And the color of ork blood changed a few times, iirc.
Warrior Coven confused me. And the DoW books...they got me hooked enough on 40k to buy dozens of more books, but I'll be damned if they actually made any sense.

Kroothawk wrote:
Other examples:
Eldar Prophecy: Guardians try to block Warp Spiders ... and they succeed! The craftworld is led by a Slaanesh worshipping Seer council.
Warrior Coven: Ulthwé's Seer council is led by a Slaanesh Worshipper. She and Eldrad (!) collaborate to sacrifice the only possible Shining Spear Exarch to Slaanesh worshipping Dark Eldar.
Tears of Blood: A fat Slaanesh worshipping Farseer stalks a female child Farseer, he can be seen drooling (!) under his hood. The story ends as the helpless and blind child is led away by said Farseer.
Dawn of War Tempest: Features the best warriors of the Eldar: Harlequins. They are mostly characterized as "piles of mutilated bodies" after a minute of fighting. No Slaanesh worshippers here, they die too early

*Clutching head in an effort to prevent the pressure from cracking through the skull and exposing the swelling brain tissue*OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD!

*spews everywhere* THIS MAN IS AN INSANE MAN.

INSANEMAN IS INSANE! ARAARAJLSNIKROTAA;K;DSCALGARSKLSD;SD:MMCCHEEZEJSDSKKKKTHRAKA;S;S0[UPIJBHDSG0T0WASMYMOSTHATEDPARTYMEMBERINKOTOR2LSDJBSKDKS *descends into ramblings*

Eyclonus wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Other examples:
Eldar Prophecy: Guardians try to block Warp Spiders ... and they succeed! The craftworld is led by a Slaanesh worshipping Seer council.
Warrior Coven: Ulthwé's Seer council is led by a Slaanesh Worshipper. She and Eldrad (!) collaborate to sacrifice the only possible Shining Spear Exarch to Slaanesh worshipping Dark Eldar.
Tears of Blood: A fat Slaanesh worshipping Farseer stalks a female child Farseer, he can be seen drooling (!) under his hood. The story ends as the helpless and blind child is led away by said Farseer.
Dawn of War Tempest: Features the best warriors of the Eldar: Harlequins. They are mostly characterized as "piles of mutilated bodies" after a minute of fighting. No Slaanesh worshippers here, they die too early

*Clutching head in an effort to prevent the pressure from cracking through the skull and exposing the swelling brain tissue*OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD! OH GOD!

After reading this piece of Goto-fluff, my reaction was:

I am genuinely disgusted someone would actually write crap like that. It's fething morally reprehensible at best, and at worst is a lynchable offence for both ruining the Eldar for anyone who might have read that, and also having a Farseer as fat and a paedophile. Also, a child Farseer, which I'm fairly sure would be impossible. I hate you, Goto.

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Is it just me or does Goto think vehicles are actually transformers? Robots in disguise!

i have to admit thatpicture has win......7

Jeez, I've never heard of this guy but frankly I'm glad I read this thread, if this guy is as bad as you people say... Is it worth me reading any of his stuff to view the Heresy or would my head ASPLODE!...?

The OC-D

theocd wrote:Jeez, I've never heard of this guy but frankly I'm glad I read this thread, if this guy is as bad as you people say... Is it worth me reading any of his stuff so would my head ASPLODE!...?

The OC-D

no.

warboss spinetwizta wrote:

theocd wrote:Jeez, I've never heard of this guy but frankly I'm glad I read this thread, if this guy is as bad as you people say... Is it worth me reading any of his stuff so would my head ASPLODE!...?

The OC-D

no.

Thanks. Also, he appears to be vaguely aware that we hate him and that his writing is trollop:

http://www.csgoto.com/csgotopositions.html

The OC-D

i just for lolz looked at warrior coven extract and there was this

He had been initiated into the
Deathwatch many years before, after he had conquered his rage on
Hegelian IX, leading the remnants of the Angels Sanguine Death
Company in a tyranid hunt through the catacombs

i thougth mephisto was only one that defeated the black rage?

He is.

Just shows how awful CS Goto is. :(

he should know that i have never run into a 40k player who didn't hate his books and not a single one of those people was on a forum.


i can understand him wanting to show a different side of 40k, but you can't slaughter the basic fluff by having marines getting killed by spore mine tenticles, having them carry multi-lasers, and not being able to maintain consistancy as to the type of vehicle that is nearby.


at first i wondered if all the Goto hate was hate against poor writing and/or exaggerated, but then i cracked open one of his books and saw that everything was true.

"RH: It started when I asked some local students about their WH40K (Warhammer 40,000) games. They told me that they’d set up a tournament for the following week in which two teams would play against each other, one side representing the ‘Goto-verse’ and the other side representing ‘Reality.’ Apparently their group was divided over your novels, and they wanted to battle it out in the form of a game!

CG: Wow, that’s amazing! (laughs) But I wonder who won?

RH: Reality won!

CG: Of course. Was this because the eldar armies on my side kept fighting amongst themselves? Or perhaps it was because my Space Marines suddenly became full of existential angst and walked off to sulk in the corner? Or may be my army was an uncomfortable mix of eldar and Marines who didn't trust each other and just watched as the whole planet exploded?

RH: They did say something about introducing a special ‘succumbing to decadence’ saving-role for the eldar armies!

CG: Anything about multi-lasers?

RH: What?

CG: Never mind."

And I have never laughed as hard as I did before.

When I got the Ledgends of the Space Marines, I had no idea about Goto. 2 minutes into his story, I threw the book out the window. His taint can only be purged with fire. Or an IP hammer if he even tries writing a book again.

been a while since i read that book, which story was his?

badab war one

chowderhead13 wrote:When I got the Ledgends of the Space Marines, I had no idea about Goto. 2 minutes into his story, I threw the book out the window. His taint can only be purged with fire. Or an IP hammer if he even tries writing a book again.

I sentenced him to Death by Killer Bees many a time.

Devastator wrote:badab war one

that's funky

my copy doesn't have that story

wut?

hehe...

C.S. Goto: "I’m not somebody who is excited by violence, so it is rarely included in these novels for its own sake...."

Soapoperahammer?

Peacehammer?

Daytimemmydramawinnerhammer?

Anyone up for game?

ENOUGH OF THE GOTO HATIN'!

So he was not quite on top of the specifics of the established 40k canon. I have read his Eldar book, his short story in 'Let Gallaxy Burn', and although fluffwise inaccurate they were still engaging stories, and he wrote them fluidly and stylistically. (more than can be said for a lot of the gak library books).

You can't fault a guy for trying to use his imagination in a very restricted vacuum of a universe of fluff.

Personally I think the Farseer surfing on a Falcon is a great mental picture. They are that nimble, they're friggin space elves! They forsee when the Falcon will bank, and move and adjust themself accordingly.
Anyone who has read 'Fellowship of the Ring' will notice that nowhere does it have Legolas doing backflips on the back of the troll, and I don't believe him sliding down the trunk of an Oliphant was in 'Return of the King' either... but nobody complained when they saw it in the movie, did they? Why? Because it was cool! because it was entertaining!

Oh no! Marines with multilasers! Dan Abnet has a sidekick guy in his books who lugs around an autocannon by himself. '15 Hours' has IG grouped in squads of 5, there are plenty of indescrepancies. Eisenhorn (an INQUISITOR and Daemon hunter!!!) flips out with fear when he sees a Chaos Marine. Indescrepancies exist everywhere.

The guy is just trying to tell an entertaining story and unfortunately, his imagination is restricted by a pre-existing universe and a fan base made up largely of unimaginative nerds who criticize everything that wasn't handed to them as canon. Give the guy a break.

Guitardian wrote:ENOUGH OF THE GOTO HATIN'!

So he was not quite on top of the specifics of the established 40k canon. I have read his Eldar book, his short story in 'Let Gallaxy Burn', and although fluffwise inaccurate they were still engaging stories, and he wrote them fluidly and stylistically. (more than can be said for a lot of the gak library books).

You can't fault a guy for trying to use his imagination in a very restricted vacuum of a universe of fluff.

Personally I think the Farseer surfing on a Falcon is a great mental picture. They are that nimble, they're friggin space elves! They forsee when the Falcon will bank, and move and adjust themself accordingly.
Anyone who has read 'Fellowship of the Ring' will notice that nowhere does it have Legolas doing backflips on the back of the troll, and I don't believe him sliding down the trunk of an Oliphant was in 'Return of the King' either... but nobody complained when they saw it in the movie, did they? Why? Because it was cool! because it was entertaining!

Oh no! Marines with multilasers! Dan Abnet has a sidekick guy in his books who lugs around an autocannon by himself. '15 Hours' has IG grouped in squads of 5, there are plenty of indescrepancies. Eisenhorn (an INQUISITOR and Daemon hunter!!!) flips out with fear when he sees a Chaos Marine. Indescrepancies exist everywhere.

The guy is just trying to tell an entertaining story and unfortunately, his imagination is restricted by a pre-existing universe and a fan base made up largely of unimaginative nerds who criticize everything that wasn't handed to them as canon. Give the guy a break.

@Guitardian - I think the problem C.S. is running into here. is that, concerning our hobby, (Warhammer 40K) there is no room for "Imagination."

This is grim/dark future.

We expect accurate accounts of 'reality' in a fictional setting. Every fiction novel / setting is defined by a set of rules and standards. You have to conform to a sense of believability. It helps us identify what is amazing and what is mundane.

When you move away from 'cannon,' and begin doing whatever you want. Then you need to expect criticism...

If your break from cannon is (in short) 'awesome' then many times it replaces the cannon, and becomes the cannon it'self.

When it isn't 'awesome' ... well you get threads like this.

....I forgot where I was going with this...

BossBig'un wrote:hehe...
C.S. Goto: "I’m not somebody who is excited by violence, so it is rarely included in these novels for its own sake...."
Soapoperahammer?
Peacehammer?
Daytimemmydramawinnerhammer?
Anyone up for game?

BossBig'un wrote:I think the problem C.S. is running into here. is that, concerning our hobby, (Warhammer 40K) there is no room for "Imagination."
This is grim/dark future.

Have you read anything by Goto? It is not the lack of violence ("piles of mutilated bodies") or too much imagination (Slaanesh worshippers, Slaanesh worshippers, Slaanesh worshippers ...) that qualifies his work.
Even when for him, torturing an injured and helpless female Farseer to death for 180 pages seems not to be considered violence but sexual foreplay
He writes Eldar novels as if Eldar had raped his wife.

Guitardian wrote:ENOUGH OF THE GOTO HATIN'!

So he was not quite on top of the specifics of the established 40k canon. I have read his Eldar book, his short story in 'Let Gallaxy Burn', and although fluffwise inaccurate they were still engaging stories, and he wrote them fluidly and stylistically. (more than can be said for a lot of the gak library books).

You can't fault a guy for trying to use his imagination in a very restricted vacuum of a universe of fluff.

Personally I think the Farseer surfing on a Falcon is a great mental picture. They are that nimble, they're friggin space elves! They forsee when the Falcon will bank, and move and adjust themself accordingly.
Anyone who has read 'Fellowship of the Ring' will notice that nowhere does it have Legolas doing backflips on the back of the troll, and I don't believe him sliding down the trunk of an Oliphant was in 'Return of the King' either... but nobody complained when they saw it in the movie, did they? Why? Because it was cool! because it was entertaining!

Oh no! Marines with multilasers! Dan Abnet has a sidekick guy in his books who lugs around an autocannon by himself. '15 Hours' has IG grouped in squads of 5, there are plenty of indescrepancies. Eisenhorn (an INQUISITOR and Daemon hunter!!!) flips out with fear when he sees a Chaos Marine. Indescrepancies exist everywhere.

The guy is just trying to tell an entertaining story and unfortunately, his imagination is restricted by a pre-existing universe and a fan base made up largely of unimaginative nerds who criticize everything that wasn't handed to them as canon. Give the guy a break.

I actually disliked Legolas' antics quite a bit in the films, but that's beside the point. I can see what you mean, that perhaps many of us are inflexible in our approach to fluff, but when it condradicts key tenets to the general mythos, then we have a problem. Goto generated quite a few such instances trying to do something "entertaining" which, whilst an admirable goal, didn't really sit well with many fans. I know that quite a few Eldar players hate him for his work on their favourite race, and not because of tank-surfing (which would be feasible with Eldar, though probably impractical in a battle situation) either. It would make sense for Eisenhorn to fear a CSM, it's a bloody marine for god's sake. He's only human, after all.
Quite frankly, I feel you are trying to play down some of the "specifics" that Goto misses. He may write fluidly and stylistically, but believe me, that doesn't mean his flaws should just be overlooked because he has imagination. Other authors can do it fairly easily without it being rubbish. Take Pasanius from the Ultramarines series, for example. He has a whole bunch of stuff written about him that doesn't happen in a game, but people like it because it's not over-the-top. I can't speak for anything Dan Abnett writes, I tend not to read much of his work, but if I were to showcase an author who can BOTH write well and not run rampant, I would say Aaron Dembski-Bowden is the nearest you are going to get with his Night Lords stuff. Unfortunately, Goto does not yet realsie there are limits to what people can accept as "cool" and not "Mary-Sue."

Kroothawk wrote:

BossBig'un wrote:hehe...
C.S. Goto: "I’m not somebody who is excited by violence, so it is rarely included in these novels for its own sake...."
Soapoperahammer?
Peacehammer?
Daytimemmydramawinnerhammer?
Anyone up for game?

BossBig'un wrote:I think the problem C.S. is running into here. is that, concerning our hobby, (Warhammer 40K) there is no room for "Imagination."
This is grim/dark future.

Have you read anything by Goto? It is not the lack of violence ("piles of mutilated bodies") or too much imagination (Slaanesh worshippers, Slaanesh worshippers, Slaanesh worshippers ...) that qualifies his work.
Even when for him, torturing an injured and helpless female Farseer to death for 180 pages seems not to be considered violence but sexual foreplay
He writes Eldar novels as if Eldar had raped his wife.

Sadly I have read all his books. I am not a fan....I don't get why you quoted me?

The quote about violence is an actual quote from an Interview with C.S. Goto. - It was reflective of his "missing the point" of WARHAMMER.

The second quote was directed at Guitardian's defense of C.S. Goto, and was a civilized reply, and explained the merits of the argument many make here, possibly less than eloquently**

**i.e. see "slowed Writer is slowed"

.... please re-read both posts. Thanks.

i see what you mean.


I think Goto has a very short sighted view of the 40k universe. there is a TON of room for creativity.

the problem is when people pick up a 40k novel they expect, surprise suprise, a 40K novel. not a novel that utilizes images and people from the 40K universe in a way that realistically wouldn't happen in the 40K universe.


Goto writes 40K novels in the same style that Star Wars novels are written. basically doing whatever he wants as long as it doesn't conflict with established principals and events(except he leaves out the part about not conflicting)


Eldar and SMs uniting against Chaos forces isn't unheard of, but you better do one hell of a job explaining how, why and to what ends it is happening or i can't belive it. and the Eldar and SMs better turn on each other near the end or else...



Goto seems to forget the basic principal of 40K and it is clear he doesn't care.

"to be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions.

it is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable.

Forget the promise of progress and understanding.

for in the Grim darkness of the Far future there is only War.

there is no peace amonst the stars.

only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods"


he should go write Star Wars or romance novels where his work would be appreciated. not here where he is twisting the impressionable minds of little children as to the true reality of the 40K universe.

Please see the following example: Full of imagination, win and whimsy... but if it was published as cannon. I would quit Warhammer forever. No disrespect to the author...Commisar Steve is my new dakka Hero!!!.... but stilll....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313386.page

You just can't.... look.....away.....

Wow. So that's what Superman does these days.

No, his taint must be cleansed with a Daemonhammer, where the hell is Torquemada Coteaz?

He'll get rid of him real quick.

Kanluwen wrote:Much like alot of the laws regarding rape are created in reaction to heinous events, C.S. Goto heralded a new era of Black Library's draconian rule on their authors.

I like to call it "Goto's Law", personally.

Yes, the new rape laws are good, but it doesn't help the victims already violated.

Some of you guys have got a vision of what 40K is about and it seems you can't accept that someone else can have a different vision.

Take any number of the Black Library authors' depictions of 40k and compare them to Goto.

He is the only one, since the days of Rogue Trader and the Draco series with Soap Opera Marines falling in love with Eldar, Eldar Farseers being secret Slaanesh worshippers(which is asinine in and of itself, because even the most far flung branches of the Eldar[the Dark Eldar and the Corsairs/Exodites/Harlequins] still don't worship Slaanesh), etc.

He seems to have had little to no grasp as to what 40k was thematically 'about', which is kinda important when you're writing within an established environment.

Kilkrazy wrote:Some of you guys have got a vision of what 40K is about and it seems you can't accept that someone else can have a different vision.

No. There is a difference between "Different Version" (Like Alpharius is a Good Buy but not really but maybe he is) and "CSGotoverse" (Pedophile Slaanesh Worshiping Farseers and Karskin/Termi BFFs).

It sounds all right to me.

40K is meant to be grimdark, isn't it?

Not being disagreeable for disagreeablity's sake...

But Grimdark doesn't mean that anything goes as long as it is "grimdark."

The Imperium has been doing it a certian way for thousands of years. There are reasons that "Multilasers" aren't an option for the Space Marines. Their wargear is sacred to them. They wouldn't pick up a shruiken catapult and say "Wow this is a cool gun" ... and then use it exclusively... just as they wouldn't issue ork war buggies to thier scouts...

They might use them, but not as S.O.P. I mean, there are spoons in WH40K, but they aren't going to replace their CCW with them.... albeit it woud be imaginative... POWER SPOON!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just think that his writing is not accurate to the warhammer 40K universe.

If he isn't going to adhere to the "Setting" he shouldn't write for it.

Good writing or bad writing is a matter of opinion and we can endlessly deate the merits or demerits of it until we are green in the face.... but ultimately I think that the majority of the posts here 'against' C.S. Goto is his poor concept and retconning choices.... do you agree/disagree...???


Black Library made a poor decidion alowing him to dismiss 20+ years of GW history IRT and 40K plus years of History in the 40K Universe.

ust my $0.02.

Kilkrazy wrote:It sounds all right to me.

40K is meant to be grimdark, isn't it?

Again, I would have to disagree. As Boss Big 'Un has pointed out, Grimdark isn't a licence to do whatever you feel like. The Eldar as a race have a very long history and character in the game's universe, and a lot of what Goto has written goes against that character completely. Slaanesh, for example, isn't out to get the Eldar to worship him, he just wants to eat their souls (as well as other things, but hey, let's not go there.) The whole reasons for the spirit stones every Eldar wears is so their soul doesn't go into the warp and be eaten by Slaanesh. I'm not saying that authors should stick to what's been done before - indeed, creativity in some of the BL books would be great - but there is a difference between creativity and nonsense.

GW frequently 'retcon' stuff themselves.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW frequently 'retcon' stuff themselves.

True indeed, but not to that extent, I'm sure you'll agree. Or maybe they do; my memory isn't great. Either way, that's a key part of what the Eldar are about, and therefore extremely unlikely to change. The fact that Goto ignored that is what caused so much anger.

Just chalk it down to unsubstantiated rumours.

Kilkrazy wrote:Just chalk it down to unsubstantiated rumours.

Wouldn't surprise me. There was a rumour once that the BA codex would have marines riding giant vampire bats a la Thunerwolf style. You go figure that one out.

Instead we god The Blood Blood Blood Talons with the Blood Fists and the Blood Chalices and the Blood lances and the Blood Armours with BFF FOREVER Necrons.

Mat Ward = CS Goto 2.0

Gwar! wrote:Instead we god The Blood Blood Blood Talons with the Blood Fists and the Blood Chalices and the Blood lances and the Blood Armours with BFF FOREVER Necrons.

Mat Ward = CS Goto 2.0

He's not as bad as that. Yet.

Give him time, though, and...

@Boss Big'Un

I actually have a old citadel lead figure of a space marine scout with an eldar shuriken catapult, which makes your idealism of the space marines wrong and wrong again.

Guitardian wrote:@Boss Big'Un

I actually have a old citadel lead figure of a space marine scout with an eldar shuriken catapult, which makes your idealism of the space marines wrong and wrong again.

What, back in Ye Olde Days when SM's were brutish thugs?
It's been retconned that SM's see xenos as disgusting, so these days it makes no sense for an SM to use an alien's weapon. Even if the marine would use one, he would not be able to keep it, as the chapter in general would see it as tainted.

Gwar! wrote:Instead we got The Bloody Bloody Bloody Talons with the Blood Fists and the Blood Chalices and the Blood lances and the Blood Armours with BFF FOREVER Necrons.

Mat Ward = CS Goto 2.0

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's not get carried away here.
Mat Ward writes...awkward rules, sure. But it's not him writing the fluff that fills the books. That's people like Phil Kelly, Andy Hoare, Gav Thorpe, etc.

And as an aside, precedent for these "alliances of convenience" was set prior to Blood Angels, with Planetstrike mentioning Marneus Calgar forming an impromptu cease-fire with the Tau to counter a Tyranid Splinter Fleet. Once it got too bad to handle, he opted to let the Tau even evacuate their forces from the planet before committing Exterminatus and burning the planet behind them.

It might happen. a Tac marine is fighting a mob of orkz, he's the only tac marine left, his bolter and bolt pistol are out of ammo. He knows the combat knife won't work forever, so he picks up a Ork Burna and roasts the orkz until backup can arrive (or he is overrun). Either way, he doesn't keep the burna.

Edit: i thought the Tau/Ultramarine teamup was against Necrons.

@ Guitardian - No need for hostility or smarmyism...

I am sure you feel ( an everyone will agree) that your "Old citadel lead figure" over-rules all the cannon out for the space marines. But I don't think that it would, unless it does, and if so, then I would need to see some documents on it!

I mean I am all for home-brewed rules... but publishing something is different than saying "this marine has a shruiken catapult he uses as a weapon as it was a trophy take from a far-seer who he killed in single coabt with a Power Spoon as he waited in line for chow..." and that being the reason you use the weapon profile instead of his normal bolter... whatever.. it is a game.

But when you publish something, it is saying "this has our corporation's stamp of approval." It means something.

I have a football with a clown glued to it....that doesn't mean that the NFL is going to play a game with a marrionette adhered to the ole pigskin.

Do you think so?

Iur_tae_mont wrote:It might happen. a Tac marine is fighting a mob of orkz, he's the only tac marine left, his bolter and bolt pistol are out of ammo. He knows the combat knife won't work forever, so he picks up a Ork Burna and roasts the orkz until backup can arrive (or he is overrun). Either way, he doesn't keep the burna.

Edit: i thought the Tau/Ultramarine teamup was against Necrons.

Sorry to cause confusion, but I was arguing against extended use of an alien weapon. Yours is a very valid point, though.

@ Guitardian - Please don't take offense and believe that anything I say is a slight against you personally, I don't even know you.

But do understand that you are in a minority when it come to THIS topic on THIS thread.

I admire you for standing up for C.S. Goto (who you believe is a good writer) and I commend you for doing so. (And hopefully you aren't just trollin' looking for a flame-out of this thread.)

But I have read the posts and feel that the concensus is correct. C.S. Goto has hacked up years of cannon, and thousands of years of "in game" history to "turn a phrase."

Not accebtable...IMO and totally deserved of all the venom he is accruing.

This sounds incredibly silly, I wonder if amazon.com sells his books?

Probably, they stock a lot of things on Amazon.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Just chalk it down to unsubstantiated rumours.

Wouldn't surprise me. There was a rumour once that the BA codex would have marines riding giant vampire bats a la Thunerwolf style. You go figure that one out.

That sounds pretty zarjaz actually. It could look like this but with bigger pauldrons.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Just chalk it down to unsubstantiated rumours.

Wouldn't surprise me. There was a rumour once that the BA codex would have marines riding giant vampire bats a la Thunerwolf style. You go figure that one out.

That sounds pretty zarjaz actually. It could look like this but with bigger pauldrons.

why does that image make me crave a happy-meal?

And a big red marine, no doubt swinging something lethally pointed. Now that I think about it, that actually sounds kinda cool.

the thing is...

Marines riding giant ferocious beasts makes sense.

Marines falling in love with Eldar farseers who are Slanesesh w(h)orshiping Pedophiles doesn't make sense and is wrong on multiple levels.



Blood angels riding giant bats might be a little OTT, but it sort of works.

Grey Templar wrote:the thing is...

Marines riding giant ferocious beasts makes sense.

Marines falling in love with Eldar farseers who are Slanesesh w(h)orshiping Pedophiles doesn't make sense and is wrong on multiple levels.



Blood angels riding giant bats might be a little OTT, but it sort of works.

Besides, if nothing else, SMs riding beasts of war is so utterly METAL that it make up for it's oddness.
There is no redeeming factor to paedophilia.

Amen brother, Amen.

If you are the last one out, turn off the lights when you leave....

Anyone who has read 'Fellowship of the Ring' will notice that nowhere does it have Legolas doing backflips on the back of the troll, and I don't believe him sliding down the trunk of an Oliphant was in 'Return of the King' either... but nobody complained when they saw it in the movie, did they? Why? Because it was cool! because it was entertaining!

I complained about it, that gak was stupid.

Eisenhorn (an INQUISITOR and Daemon hunter!!!) flips out with fear when he sees a Chaos Marine. Indescrepancies exist everywhere.

Eisenhorne was not a Daemon Hunter, but a member of the Ordo Xenos and I believe that was his first up-close encounter ever with a Chaos Marine. And he didn't "flip out with fear", but could feel the projected menace and corruption (or whatever).

The guy is just trying to tell an entertaining story and unfortunately, his imagination is restricted by a pre-existing universe and a fan base made up largely of unimaginative nerds who criticize everything that wasn't handed to them as canon. Give the guy a break.

How about no? You can't excuse transformer tanks or basic discrepancies (spore mines? may as well say the emperor was a grot) with "oh his imagination was restricted". Anyway, that portion is mostly the fault of the non-existent editor who should have kept him in line on such basics. That said, I have little respect for an author unwilling to do the most basic research into his topic.

So quit censoring our hate. And get a haircut, hippy.

What about SoBs riding giant war bats?

the Legolas bits may have been a little OTT, but they at least didn't derail/completely fly in the face of the established cannon.

now if it had been Gimli or Aragorn then i would complain.

Kilkrazy wrote:What about SoBs riding giant war bats?

YES.

Ahhhh memories...... of mamorys.... and my first "beaver pelt" sighting.

feels good, man.
Need more badass minis of unreasonable cavalry.

LOL, dude! That is being Sigged!

I have been waiting for so long for an excuse to use this one:


I am finally glad the day has come.

OMGWTFGODAMMITSOMUCH!!! That is freakin' awesome...!!!...

....Unlike anything written by C.S. Goto.

Gotta keep the thread on track! (I did brofist it though.)

One day, I hope Goto reads the canon stuff. I hope be repents, realising that what he did was shocking, writes one single gloriously redeeming novel, and leaves with his head held high.

That will be a good day.

BossBig'un wrote:@ Guitardian - No need for hostility or smarmyism...

I am sure you feel ( an everyone will agree) that your "Old citadel lead figure" over-rules all the cannon out for the space marines. But I don't think that it would, unless it does, and if so, then I would need to see some documents on it!

I mean I am all for home-brewed rules... but publishing something is different than saying "this marine has a shruiken catapult he uses as a weapon as it was a trophy take from a far-seer who he killed in single coabt with a Power Spoon as he waited in line for chow..." and that being the reason you use the weapon profile instead of his normal bolter... whatever.. it is a game.

But when you publish something, it is saying "this has our corporation's stamp of approval." It means something.

I have a football with a clown glued to it....that doesn't mean that the NFL is going to play a game with a marrionette adhered to the ole pigskin.

Do you think so?

First off... it's spelled 'Canon'. That is not a typo. A Cannon is something that shoots, a Canon is collection of revered works. Okay nitpick aside, If they made a figure for it, then it existed. I played Rogue Trader where everything just had a points cost. I had an Ogryn Mighty Hero with a missile launcher in each hand and a psychic hood if I wanted it, too. I frequently had imperial assassins working with swooping hawk exarch carrying a bright lance or a shrieker cannon or web or whatever... you get the idea.

This was before they wanted to streamline the game away from the roleplaying/storyline kind of aspects and into the realm of what could be vaguely described as a nerdhammer rules-lawyering attempt to streamline it into a more understandable tournament format. This is all fine and dandy and I can accept the changes, but the FACT that someone went and modelled that fig for Citadel and they produced it, back when the rules weren't so tight, means that yeah... it is concievable for a SM to pick up a xenos weapon, learn to use it, and want to keep it. Perhaps not in a game, but as far as fiction is concerned, anything goes.

Incidentally, the second squad in the new Space Hulk is invalid. Sarge can't have his thunderhammer, sorry. Does anyone complain? NO. Because his backstory explains why he still keeps his TH/SS. Is this such an affront to GW caNon?

And Rogue Trader is no longer "canon".

Space Marines are no longer crazed convicts bolted into their power armor fighting for their freedom, but genetically engineered superhumans who feel no emotions outside of faith in the Emperor and the Imperium.

That's part of them evolving the background from just "fantasy themes--in SPACEFUTURE!", and making their own setting/intellectual property.

Gettin' rather heated in here. TBH I kinda agree w/ guitardian. The fluff is always changing. Why not? and sure, he wrote some stupid sounding stuff, but at least he wrote it semi-coherently. Riding atop a razorback is probably inspired by what american GIs did in vietnam: they rode atop their troop transports, out of the safety of the armor because A), it was hot inside the APCs, B), the viet cong would steal landmines and detonate landmines or random explosions buried in the road to kill the soldiers inside due to insufficient armor on the bottom, and C), the VC would rarely to a full frontal assault on a large convoy of soldiers. /endofftopicrant. I personally wouldn't do it, I'd be too afraid of the razorback turret shooting me!

But it sounds cheesy/cool, aka what most fluff is.

And is marines with multilazors really that bad? Space marines using an imperium weapon that they don't normally use? What about the "Soul Drinkers" series, where one of the characters has some sort of rivet shooting gun, and when he hits a necron warrior, it damages it so bad that the warriors body doesn't dissappear? Was that "realistic or fitting in with the current fluff"?

You know Guitardian, if you keep being snarky, nobody will like talking to you.
It's interesting that you bring up rogue trader here, too, despite most of that fluff being retconned. Also, there is a difference between a guy using an illegal loadout of weaponry he has actual access to, and a guy robbing the bodies of dead aliens for ammo because the Imperium doesn't produce eldar shurikens. In addition, you have also conveniently ignored the Imperium's massive anti-alien doctrines, something that even the Marines believe to be a good idea.

micahaphone wrote:Gettin' rather heated in here. TBH I kinda agree w/ guitardian. The fluff is always changing. Why not? and sure, he wrote some stupid sounding stuff, but at least he wrote it semi-coherently. Riding atop a razorback is probably inspired by what american GIs did in vietnam: they rode atop their troop transports, out of the safety of the armor because A), it was hot inside the APCs, B), the viet cong would steal landmines and detonate landmines or random explosions buried in the road to kill the soldiers inside due to insufficient armor on the bottom, and C), the VC would rarely to a full frontal assault on a large convoy of soldiers. /endofftopicrant. I personally wouldn't do it, I'd be too afraid of the razorback turret shooting me!

Difference is that a Space Marine is the exception to the rule when it comes to open/close topped vehicles. And the "it's too hot" thing...that's ridiculous. Actual, established canon(read: anything not written by C.S. Goto) states that Power Armour actually regulates the temperature of the individual inside.

And is marines with multilazors really that bad? Space marines using an imperium weapon that they don't normally use? What about the "Soul Drinkers" series, where one of the characters has some sort of rivet shooting gun, and when he hits a necron warrior, it damages it so bad that the warriors body doesn't dissappear? Was that "realistic or fitting in with the current fluff"?

Soul Drinkers series was written by Ben Counter, who is regarded just as poorly as C.S. Goto for the most part.

And hey, guess what?
Seemingly also not employed by Black Library anymore! Last novel was April 2009 with nothing, at all, upcoming(and the publishing schedule is available to look at up to May, 2011).

I quite like the Soul Drinker series also they were a renegade chapter with little or no means of re-supply who has already used xenos equipment so i think by that point the marines just arm themselves with whatever and go for it.

But that's just it. Renegade Chapter. They don't follow the same practices as... Let's say the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, when it comes to using Xeno/Chaos Equipment.

Yeah that was my defending point as to why they can't be used as an example of marines using other weapons. Thanks for just saying what i was trying to imply... sorry that was a bit rude.

purplefood wrote:I quite like the Soul Drinker series also they were a renegade chapter with little or no means of re-supply who has already used xenos equipment so i think by that point the marines just arm themselves with whatever and go for it.

Oops. Shoulda read the book instead of letting my friend drool while talking about the awesome/cheesy things inside it.
So the guy doesn't know everything about the universe that he's going to try to make up new things for and screws up with pre written information that is about the basics which he doesn't explain away? so wha- okay, bad example.
So the guy decides to go against existing fluff in an attempt to mix things up with eldar, and put some dissent into their ranks? So wha- okay, not a great idea, but not the worst one either. But doing it through the pervert god and pedophilia, no. Just no.

Okay, I guess the guy wrote some bad stuff. end of story. Sounds like if you're just willing to look past his little slipups, the stories are actually written better than the average black library book. So the guy just really needs a friggin' editor who actually fact checks with the existing fluff.

Hence my post on the previous page about me hoping he reforms and gets his stuff together. Then he shall truly be a writer worthy of the name.

micahaphone wrote:Gettin' rather heated in here. TBH I kinda agree w/ guitardian. The fluff is always changing. Why not? and sure, he wrote some stupid sounding stuff, but at least he wrote it semi-coherently. Riding atop a razorback is probably inspired by what american GIs did in vietnam: they rode atop their troop transports, out of the safety of the armor because A), it was hot inside the APCs, B), the viet cong would steal landmines and detonate landmines or random explosions buried in the road to kill the soldiers inside due to insufficient armor on the bottom, and C), the VC would rarely to a full frontal assault on a large convoy of soldiers. /endofftopicrant. I personally wouldn't do it, I'd be too afraid of the razorback turret shooting me!

Nobody would have a problem with a squad of infantry sitting on a light tank to go into battle - it's been done before Vietnam, and IIRC in the past GW has even released sitting Guardsman miniatures for this purpose. What is stupid is having someone standing on a moving vehicle for no good reason.

And is marines with multilazors really that bad? Space marines using an imperium weapon that they don't normally use?

Yes, it is. The only place multilasers are used are in turrets. There is no such thing as a multilaser with a forward grip and a trigger and an easily carried magazine in the Imperial armoury, so the only way to get one you could carry and fire yourself would be to build it.

AlexHolker wrote:

And is marines with multilazors really that bad? Space marines using an imperium weapon that they don't normally use?

Yes, it is. The only place multilasers are used are in turrets. There is no such thing as a multilaser with a forward grip and a trigger and an easily carried magazine in the Imperial armoury, so the only way to get one you could carry and fire yourself would be to build it.

Is there a book/reference that shows specifically what's in the imperial armory? I mean, lascannons normally require a vehicle or turrent & battery pack. But a space marine can carry one and use a backpack battery. Just because it's never been mentioned doesn't mean some techmarine couldn't modify some, or find a new diagram within the datastacks upon how to do so.

micahaphone wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

And is marines with multilazors really that bad? Space marines using an imperium weapon that they don't normally use?

Yes, it is. The only place multilasers are used are in turrets. There is no such thing as a multilaser with a forward grip and a trigger and an easily carried magazine in the Imperial armoury, so the only way to get one you could carry and fire yourself would be to build it.

Is there a book/reference that shows specifically what's in the imperial armory? I mean, lascannons normally require a vehicle or turrent & battery pack. But a space marine can carry one and use a backpack battery. Just because it's never been mentioned doesn't mean some techmarine couldn't modify some, or find a new diagram within the datastacks upon how to do so.

Actually i remember reading somewhere that the AdMech were almost constantly (although very carefully) trying to scale certain titan weapons down so tanks can use them (normal sized not baneblade sized) as well as weapons carried on tanks so that infantry can use them can't remember where though which annoys me somewhat.

Multi-lazors, like every other Impierial energy based weapon, requires a large power source.


this precludes it to being used in vehicles or with a large external power supply.


Marines have portable lascannons because they need portable anti-tank.

they have portable anti-infantry in the form of heavy bolters and frag missiles.


Multi-lasers would mean lugging a large power pack around just so you can mow down orks. i would rather lug a power pack around to make tanks go by-by.



the only thing that would feasibly carry a Multi-laser around would be a Terminator. and they have assault cannons which are better.

This thread is still alive? pfft.

It's that kind of day... 4/5 people arguing with 1 person... that's most days to be honest.

Only on dakka! Actually, that's not true at all. Only on the international network.

Yeah, I have nothing better to do.
I'm not proud of that, but hey.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Only on dakka! Actually, that's not true at all. Only on the international network.

+1

Hahaha. nice. good point.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Yeah, I have nothing better to do.
I'm not proud of that, but hey.

speaking of being 'snarky'...

iiIii

Look dude, I ain't being 'snarky' (who the heck uses that word in real life anyways?) I just don't like people giving out so much hate on a guy who was just trying to write some fantasy fiction and color outside the lines a bit. You want to offend me personally PM me, or go ahead and accuse me of 'snarkiness' whatever the hell that is as if I give a gak. feth your judgemental irrelevant contribution, and thank you very much for the insult. "snarky"? though. c'mon dude. please come up with something slightly more intellectually stimulating if you are going to insult someone.

C.S.Goto put a lot of work into trying to expand his vision of a universe and an imagination. You may not like it. The publishers may not like it after the backdraft of negative criticism from nerdhammerers. At least he tried to make some art out of a travesty of an ever changing universe that reinvents itself based on what edition is selling what models. I'm sick of hearing people diss this guy just because they don't like his story ideas. He is a writer. As such, he takes whatever commission he can get, and does what he can with the world he is stuck with writing about. You don't like his re-writing of fluff??? ask someone at GW why I have 400 SQUATS in my basement and an Eldar Shricat in the hands of an SM scout.

No more attacks please unless you do it in PM.

- the "snarky" one

..What work did he put into it? His work reads like he just strung crap together to get as many action scenes in as possible.

Also, in regards to GW rewriting the fluff...
It's their world. They've established it, they changed it almost 15-16 years ago and have kept it pretty consistent since then. I'm not sure if you're really in here white knighting for Goto because you enjoyed his works(in which case: good for you. I can't read purile crap like that though, even when I'm given it as birthday presents.) or if you're just here to make offhanded "back in my day we had Space Marines with Shuriken Catapults, and Space Dwarves!" styled remarks.

If the latter, I'll just make the comment I've always made in regards to Squats:
Squat players need to move on. It was an unhealthy attachment to continue whining about them in 2001, and now it's just a ridiculous case of rose tinting.

Isn't 40k and most fluff jsut lots of battles put together plus some background to explain why awesome character is awesome? And why sad character is sad but awesome? And generic drama in order to link together more battles?

It depends on what fluff you're talking about.

The Inquisition books done by Abnett are more of a look at Imperial society and the Inquisition than "action-packed non-stop thrill rides!", etc.

Kanluwen wrote:

And is marines with multilazors really that bad? Space marines using an imperium weapon that they don't normally use? What about the "Soul Drinkers" series, where one of the characters has some sort of rivet shooting gun, and when he hits a necron warrior, it damages it so bad that the warriors body doesn't dissappear? Was that "realistic or fitting in with the current fluff"?

Soul Drinkers series was written by Ben Counter, who is regarded just as poorly as C.S. Goto for the most part.

And hey, guess what?
Seemingly also not employed by Black Library anymore! Last novel was April 2009 with nothing, at all, upcoming(and the publishing schedule is available to look at up to May, 2011).

While I did read that book and enjoyed it, mostly in the fact of how he portrayed Flayed Ones and them hiding in bodies which makes good sense for an ambush/infiltrate unit. I was rather miffed when it talked of how Necron Warriors died in droves to mere lasgun fire and auto-rifles. Being the same endurance as a freaking Space Marine I'd expect Necrons to put up a bit more of a fight shot for shot. Still, was a good book and got me thinking about Necron conversions, alot of Space Marine fanboying but hey...it's a book about Marines, have to put up with it =/

Kanluwen wrote:Eldar Farseers surfing on Falcon Grav-Tanks with their turrets removed to make room for a surfboard, etc.

WTF now that would be a sight to see. Just like that one poster with a Commissar surfing a Leman Russ, the quote below was something like "Hardcore - only a badass would surf a tank into battle" like one of those demotivate posters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note after reading this thread I have a sudden urge to read some of Goto's books, anyone have an idea where I can get my hands on some?

(I swear the greater daemon of this thread that we spawned is whispering things into my ear, kinda like how the eldar accidentally created Slannesh)

Wow... that day has come. Someone is actually actively defending C.S. Goto. Even though the Black Library changed their entire method of editing and publishing books because of the crap Goto pulled, this guy is still defending it.

Guitardian = C.S. Goto, maybe?



And yes, Matt Ward is C.S. Goto 2.0. You only have to read the Sanguinor's fluff to see that. And Blood Fists, Blood Talons, Bloodstrike Missiles, Blood Chalices, Bloodshard Bolter Shells, Blood ad naueum...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guitardian wrote:C.S.Goto put a lot of work into trying to expand his vision of a universe and an imagination.

No dipgak he didn't. He wrote bad books that were written badly. Firewarrior was an absurd book full of all sorts of stupid inconsistencies, but it was still a fun read. Goto books are painfully bad, fetishistic in their nature and subject matter, and lack any sort of internal cohesion. Having tanks that transform into different tanks and everyone riding around on top of their transports isn't an "expanded vision" of 40K - it's bad writing (or editing - or both).


To this day I remain convinced that G.S. Goto got his notion of everyone riding on tanks from walking into a GW store, seeing that everyone had models on their tanks (to signify what unit was in what transport) and just took that literally, assuming that people just rode on tanks everywhere in 40K.

I've actually thumbed through Dawn of War and again I'm very confused on why at the end

Because he was a Zombie.

Terminus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Much like alot of the laws regarding rape are created in reaction to heinous events, C.S. Goto heralded a new era of Black Library's draconian rule on their authors.

I like to call it "Goto's Law", personally.

Yes, the new rape laws are good, but it doesn't help the victims already violated.

Ha.

Guitardian wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Yeah, I have nothing better to do.
I'm not proud of that, but hey.

speaking of being 'snarky'...

iiIii

Look dude, I ain't being 'snarky' (who the heck uses that word in real life anyways?) I just don't like people giving out so much hate on a guy who was just trying to write some fantasy fiction and color outside the lines a bit. You want to offend me personally PM me, or go ahead and accuse me of 'snarkiness' whatever the hell that is as if I give a gak. feth your judgemental irrelevant contribution, and thank you very much for the insult. "snarky"? though. c'mon dude. please come up with something slightly more intellectually stimulating if you are going to insult someone.

C.S.Goto put a lot of work into trying to expand his vision of a universe and an imagination. You may not like it. The publishers may not like it after the backdraft of negative criticism from nerdhammerers. At least he tried to make some art out of a travesty of an ever changing universe that reinvents itself based on what edition is selling what models. I'm sick of hearing people diss this guy just because they don't like his story ideas. He is a writer. As such, he takes whatever commission he can get, and does what he can with the world he is stuck with writing about. You don't like his re-writing of fluff??? ask someone at GW why I have 400 SQUATS in my basement and an Eldar Shricat in the hands of an SM scout.

No more attacks please unless you do it in PM.

- the "snarky" one

Dude, it wasn't meant as an insult, it was just a comment on how angry you were getting. Genuinely sorry if it caused offence.
I have tried to offer reasons as to my not liking Goto, and I would like to think they are fairly reasonable. I don't think he is a bad writer in general, par se; as you have said, his style is fun to read, far more so than some authors in the BL. I have stated time and again, however, that he does disregard some very basic knowledge of the 4OK universe, and I'm not referring to Shuriken catapults or multilasers or tank-surfing or such. That, as you say, could be seen as just a bit of fun.
No, what I disliked intently is his massive misrepresentation of an entire in-game race. He must have something against the Eldar, the way he writes about them. Fact is, claiming "discrimination" because a lot of the fans, fans who actually don't mind a bit of creativity, such as the Pasanius character or some of the Iron Warriors in Storm of Iron, disliked him doing that to a race. Just beacause you liked it and a lot of other people didn't does not make them "nerdhammerers" and to be honest, I find that to be a "Judgmental irrelevant contribution," far more so than a single word followed by a list of points that were very on-topic.

I never meant any of my comments to be offensive in any way (snark, I assumed, was just an internet term for someone getting really quite angry) and I'm sorry if that's the way you feel about it.
I think perhaps it's time to call it and agree to disagree.

Guitardian wrote:go ahead and accuse me of 'snarkiness' whatever the hell that is as if I give a gak. feth your judgemental irrelevant contribution, and thank you very much for the insult. "snarky"? though. c'mon dude. please come up with something slightly more intellectually stimulating if you are going to insult someone.

C.S.Goto put a lot of work into trying to expand his vision of a universe and an imagination. You may not like it. The publishers may not like it after the backdraft of negative criticism from nerdhammerers. At least he tried to make some art out of a travesty of an ever changing universe that reinvents itself based on what edition is selling what models. I'm sick of hearing people diss this guy just because they don't like his story ideas. He is a writer. As such, he takes whatever commission he can get, and does what he can with the world he is stuck with writing about. You don't like his re-writing of fluff??? ask someone at GW why I have 400 SQUATS in my basement and an Eldar Shricat in the hands of an SM scout.

No more attacks please unless you do it in PM.

- the "snarky" one

You're the only one resorting to personal attacks here, so I hope a moderator puts a boot in your ass.

And Goto puts zero work into his fiction. His use of language is amateurish, his characters are bland and shallow, and he does zero research into his source material and apparently doesn't even proof-read what he regurgitates one time before submitting it for print. Squats are just an IG army variant, you can use those models just fine. People have already explained why a Scout would have an Eldar weapon (whether due to being a renegade or momentarily using it on the battlefield since he's out of ammo).

You want to be like the one Goto fan in the world, that's fine, but please, calm the hell down and cut back on the insults.

Too many personal attacks n a thread that has somehow survived long enough for the impossible to happen.

All done!