What do you honestly think is the best anti tank unit in the game?

Please, to keep things reasonable, squad sizes have a maximum of 10. Or, better yet, give an example of something you would actually use, please no 30 death company with 30 thunder hammers and 30 storm shields.


Personally, I would say Broadsides with advanced stabilization system, or Manticore, or maybe even the Vanquisher with pask.

Opinions? Whats your races favourite anti tank unit and how do you use it.

Deadly Drop-Podin' Sternguard (Rangers).

No doubt, 5 combi-meltas drop-poding on an LR for only 185 points will do great, for sure! 5 more costs a lot more, so there is more risk... But when you can effectively pop an L.R. with at least 6 meltas, they are worth it.

3 Broadside Battlesuits with advanced stabilization systems guided by a Markerdrone.

Leman Russ Vanquisher with Multi-meltas, Lascannon, Hunter-killer Missile and Commander Pask.

Going to have to agree with you, full broadside team. Just point, and remove tank.Much more simple and easy compared for waiting for turn two and podding in.

Fire dragons. Up to 10 of them, they all have melta guns for 16 points a piece (unlike 30 for those sternguard), they can have tank hunters, and they have melta bombs just in case their shooting didn't do enough for you.

Ravenwing attack squadron with 2 meltaguns and a multi-melta
OR

Ravenwing support squadron with Multi-meltas. Up to 5 multi-melta armed land speeders.

These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

willydstyle wrote:Fire dragons. Up to 10 of them, they all have melta guns for 16 points a piece (unlike 30 for those sternguard), they can have tank hunters, and they have melta bombs just in case their shooting didn't do enough for you.

This, because it's horrible, and you don't see many necron players these days, so the monoliths aren't too much of a problem. Stupid kids and their SM armies.

willydstyle wrote:Fire dragons. Up to 10 of them, they all have melta guns for 16 points a piece (unlike 30 for those sternguard), they can have tank hunters, and they have melta bombs just in case their shooting didn't do enough for you.

And the exarch with his longer range fusion gun that ignores cover.

Jaon wrote:These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

I base my anti-tank prowess more on being able to kill rhinos consistently than monoliths, because frankly you don't often *need* to kill monoliths when playing against Necrons, and on a day-to-day basis you're way more likely to fight a rhino than a monolith, or even a land raider.

Another unit that has not been mentioned: Medusas with bastion breacher shells.

best AT weapon.

Zoanthrope Warp Lance.

Range 24"(IIRC)

Str10

AP1

Lance


why, yes, I am penetrating your LR on 3+

Grey Templar wrote:best AT weapon.

Zoanthrope Warp Lance.

Range 24"(IIRC)

Str10

AP1

Lance


why, yes, I am penetrating your LR on 3+

I'm pleased you said WEAPON, rather than unit! As it's also the most unreliable with a spore pod, short-ish range, nullification and perils!


Best Unit? Likely Broadsides, although MM land speeders and fire dragons shouldn't be underestimated, however Broadsides have the range that is otherwise laking in most melta-weapons...

Don't forget that Warp Lance actually has an 18" range too.

There were rumours - and emphasis on rumours - of a Dark Eldar weapon that'd be melta AND lance...

IG Vets with demolition and 3 meltas dropped in front of enemy tank via valkyrie (1st turn if you get it). Melta tank and charge it with 10 melta-bombs if it fails.

and how much does that cost all in all?

260, so actually on par with fire dragons in a wave serpent or other options. However The Strange Dude is actually missing the best part of the tactic. If you're going first, you don't want to shoot your melta guns at all. You simply want to set up a multi-assault on as many enemy vehicles as possible. If you can destroy a couple of rhinos and a land raider (just an example) before they even get to move, you can make a huge impact on the game, even if you're sacrificing a unit of vets to do so.

I don't know, I still like my Tankbustas. They don't offer as sure a kill as......well, pretty much anything else, but I certainly don't see any other units able to kill tanks with the equivalent of a small, yappy dog wrapped in dynamite.

So the points are a little higher, but it has a ton of uses. Longfang squad with Logan Grimnar. Im a little over the model count for your unit conditions because I would like to add two rune priests to the squad as well, bringing the point cost to around 560 I believe. Logan can give the squad tank hunters, half being armed with las and half with missle. Add in the psychic powers, beefiest unit with multi role, relentless or fearless or tank hunter when they need it

Jaon wrote:These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

True, but they CAN wreck them by rolling three straight sixes (Happened with a Fusion Blaster)

It's not the best, but it's one of my favourites because it's just so unexpected... Logan Grimnar granting Tank Hunters to a unit with Arjac Rockfist... Auto-penetrates AV 11 with AP1 at 10". Logan with Long Fangs can also be pretty rude... he turns your 10-point missile launchers into Lascannons (edit: as pointed out above - nevermind )!

It's usually a waste of a Grimnar, but it sure is funny.

Point for point? 100 points of veterans with some meltas and bring it down probably rank up there.

The Vanquisher with pask is a POS.

My money is still on a unit of Fire Dragons.

I use two units of 6 w/ Exarch and tank hunters in Serpents. Love them and in reality Eldar can not function without them.

Tell that to my Fire Dragons. They roll 1s and 2s like it's Leadership Test Tuesdays.

Right, I think this question has to be split.

What is the most amount of anti-tank carnage you can put on a unit you'd reasonably consider fielding? Yeah, probably sternguard with combi-melta, or some terminators with some chainfists or the boradside broadside.

as for killy-per-point, I'd have to say the imperial guard priest. 3 re-rolling meltabomb attacks for 65 points? Yes please.

for me it would be a bw w/ deffrolla boarding planks and some pk nobz in it.


other than that sternguard w/ dp

How about a Demolisher with a Lascannon and Multi-melta sponsons? There's not a lot of vehicles that can deal with that much concentrated fire-power. Throw in Pask and it's almost an auto-kill with average rolls. Cost 210 (260 w Pask).

Ailaros wrote:Right, I think this question has to be split.

What is the most amount of anti-tank carnage you can put on a unit you'd reasonably consider fielding? Yeah, probably sternguard with combi-melta, or some terminators with some chainfists or the boradside broadside.

as for killy-per-point, I'd have to say the imperial guard priest. 3 re-rolling meltabomb attacks for 65 points? Yes please.

Don't you only get 1 attack per model when using grenades?

My money is on Broadsides, and Leman russ tanks with Las cannon and plasma sponsons. Or failing that my Shadow sword also does a rather nice jobb as AT unit

The Strange Dude wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Right, I think this question has to be split.

What is the most amount of anti-tank carnage you can put on a unit you'd reasonably consider fielding? Yeah, probably sternguard with combi-melta, or some terminators with some chainfists or the boradside broadside.

as for killy-per-point, I'd have to say the imperial guard priest. 3 re-rolling meltabomb attacks for 65 points? Yes please.

Don't you only get 1 attack per model when using grenades?

He's saying that an eviscerator is like getting 3 melta bomb attacks. It's not quite, of course. 13 is the middle of the bell curve for 2d6+6. 15 is the middle of the curve for 2d6+8. That's significant.

Still going with the uber long fang squad over the broadsides because of the mulitrole ability. How many broadsides can you put in a squad? In an army list you can also squeeze a termie into the long fang squad and two rune priests but we're talking a huge squad at that point, lots of points, and chosen special rule of the day for giggles. If broadsides are a unit of three, twinlinked 10 1's, Id rather take the moveable (chosen rule relentless from logan) 10 missles, or give them tank hunters and a few las cannons instead of straight missles. plus the rune priests psychic powers. Pure single turn tank hunting, maybe broadsides, overall effectivenes (with huge point variability) logans longfangs of doom.

Well then all this mean as another condition is, do tanks count as 'units' as per the OP's post?

Although devastating, the Logan/Long Fang trick is a bit too expensive to be able to compare to some of the other AT in here IMHO. For example, he can create str10 or ap1 lascannons, but broadsides already have that. Twin linked.

Personally, I still remain adamant that broadsides are the best: Cheap, twin-linked, long-range, high str, AP1, can move and shoot and are tough. The problem with many melta units is that they can be 'shut down' through their transport being destroyed or simply unable to get close enough. Broadsides have little to no flaws when it comes to tank-hunting...

willydstyle wrote:

The Strange Dude wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Right, I think this question has to be split.

What is the most amount of anti-tank carnage you can put on a unit you'd reasonably consider fielding? Yeah, probably sternguard with combi-melta, or some terminators with some chainfists or the boradside broadside.

as for killy-per-point, I'd have to say the imperial guard priest. 3 re-rolling meltabomb attacks for 65 points? Yes please.

Don't you only get 1 attack per model when using grenades?

He's saying that an eviscerator is like getting 3 melta bomb attacks. It's not quite, of course. 13 is the middle of the bell curve for 2d6+6. 15 is the middle of the curve for 2d6+8. That's significant.

Priest is only S3.

And an eviscerator doubles the model's strength and adds another d6.

Broadsides hands down imo

- S10 AP1
- Twin-linked
- 72" range (no having to expose yourself to angry CC units that are looking for revenge for putting a big hole in the side of thier ride)
- can benefit from marker lights to reduce or remove cover saves
- can be equipped to be able to individually target seperate units, giving the possibility for one unit to kill 3 seperate vehicles a turn.

Ediin wrote:Leman Russ Vanquisher with Multi-meltas, Lascannon, Hunter-killer Missile and Commander Pask.

This. Although broadsides are cheaper

I kid. This is about the best since you can fire every single weapon at the same tank and most likely kill it with something. If you aren't killing, you're doing it wrong.

Broadsides, for the range of twin linked railguns (six feet of str. 10 AP1 !), and that depending on how they're equipped, they can move & shoot, or shoot at two different targets, or both. That last option (for a two man/fish thing) would be around 165 points for two broadsides with advanced stabilization systems and one HW target lock. Two tanks a turn for roughly the cost of one tank? Yes please.

willydstyle wrote:And an eviscerator doubles the model's strength and adds another d6.

Melta bombs are only S6. I know, I was shocked when I found out too.

I think you missed this:

willydstyle wrote:It's not quite, of course. 13 is the middle of the bell curve for 2d6+6. 15 is the middle of the curve for 2d6+8. That's significant.

Fafnir wrote:

willydstyle wrote:And an eviscerator doubles the model's strength and adds another d6.

Melta bombs are only S6. I know, I was shocked when I found out too.

Funny my 5th ed meltabombs are S8. BRB p 63.

Melta bombs are S8+2d6.
Kraks are S6+1d6.
Frags are S4+1d6.

At least if I'm reading this right.

For price effectiveness, MM land speeders. For a small cost you get a fast moving MM with the ability to deepstrike if you want!

Melissia wrote:Melta bombs are S8+2d6.
Kraks are S6+1d6.
Frags are S4+1d6.

At least if I'm reading this right.

Yes, that's correct, unless I am so hopelessly out of the loop that I may as well quit now.

Or chalk it up as a learning experience and carry on. Either/or.

Right, the eviscerator is 2 points of strength lower than a meltabomb, but an average of 13 is still pretty darn good, especially given that you're hitting rear armor all the time. More importantly, they're rerollable.

For a unit that averages 13 on armor penetration, has 3 attacks, gets to use WS against walkers, auto-hits stationary vehicles, hits moving vehicles 75% of the time, ignores cover, SMF, and those obnoxious serpent shields, and always strikes rear armor (while doing other cool things like letting other people's meltabombs reroll), all wrapped in a 4++ for 65 points?

Sounds like a great deal to me.

Nurglitch wrote:Or chalk it up as a learning experience and carry on. Either/or.

It was a joke, old boy.

"Joke"? Does not compute.

And so it begins...
To the ships!

Ailaros wrote:Right, the eviscerator is 2 points of strength lower than a meltabomb, but an average of 13 is still pretty darn good, especially given that you're hitting rear armor all the time. More importantly, they're rerollable.

For a unit that averages 13 on armor penetration, has 3 attacks, gets to use WS against walkers, auto-hits stationary vehicles, hits moving vehicles 75% of the time, ignores cover, SMF, and those obnoxious serpent shields, and always strikes rear armor (while doing other cool things like letting other people's meltabombs reroll), all wrapped in a 4++ for 65 points?

Sounds like a great deal to me.

It's still one T3 wound. A tactical marine strikes first and has a significant chance to kill the priest, though if he doesn't the tac squad will surely take some damage. I agree that it's a bargain-basement cost for an effective anti-vehicle model, but I also bet on him up against a dread.

IG vets with three melta guns under the "Bring it Down!" order via a senior officer or Bastonne. Bonus points if they have meltabombs.

Although I am mostly a loyal servant of the God-Emperor now ( IG ), I have never been disappointed by Obliterators. Terminator saves, option to Deep Strike, Fearless and you can choose your weapon each turn? Yes, please . For extra fun park them in cover ( woods, ruins etc. ) to seriously frustrate your opponent.

Have I missed this? Why have I not seen a battle wagon with a deff rolla yet? That's right, battle wagon with a deff rolla. D6 str10 hits to any vehicle it rams. Also not forgetting the thing can carry 20 orks lol. I know, not very useful in the grand scheme of things but it's funny as hell and yes, I would actually do it.

15 Tankbustas with 3 Tankhammers in assault, as well as a power klaw on the nob.

You mind as well just remove that tank.

Ninjabiscuit wrote:Have I missed this? Why have I not seen a battle wagon with a deff rolla yet? That's right, battle wagon with a deff rolla. D6 str10 hits to any vehicle it rams. Also not forgetting the thing can carry 20 orks lol. I know, not very useful in the grand scheme of things but it's funny as hell and yes, I would actually do it.

Actually someone has already said Deff Rolla/Battlewagon. Even so, it's too short ranged to be 'best'.

Ninjabiscuit wrote:Have I missed this? Why have I not seen a battle wagon with a deff rolla yet? That's right, battle wagon with a deff rolla. D6 str10 hits to any vehicle it rams. Also not forgetting the thing can carry 20 orks lol. I know, not very useful in the grand scheme of things but it's funny as hell and yes, I would actually do it.

Because it's easily countered and avoided as long as you have tanks of your own.

Yes, it actually is *useful* in the grand scheme of things, because it forces your opponent to play how you want him to play.

Actually someone has already said Deff Rolla/Battlewagon. Even so, it's too short ranged to be 'best'.

Well poop. I never said the best per say just the most fun. I have used broadsides and would pretty much agree on the effectiveness of them. Target locks just make them ridiculous, screw advanced stabilizers. Just park them in cover because the range of the rail gun is the advantage and with true LOS most vehicles can never hide anyway.

Zoanthropes.

I would say a Chaos Havoc Squad with 2 multi-meltas and 2 las-cannon, I have taken a Monolith out witha single multi-melta shot as it landed abit to close yo me.

In coming Party Pooper!!

LordWynne wrote:I would say a Chaos Havoc Squad with 2 multi-meltas and 2 las-cannon, I have taken a Monolith out witha single multi-melta shot as it landed abit to close yo me.

You can't get multi-melta's in Chaos Havocs and even so many other things can (arguably) tank hunt better, on the move, for less.

Nurglitch wrote:Zoanthropes.

Short range, nullification, perils or the warp and reliance on deep strike says otherwise.

Ninjabiscuit wrote:

Actually someone has already said Deff Rolla/Battlewagon. Even so, it's too short ranged to be 'best'.

Well poop. I never said the best per say just the most fun. I have used broadsides and would pretty much agree on the effectiveness of them. Target locks just make them ridiculous, screw advanced stabilizers. Just park them in cover because the range of the rail gun is the advantage and with true LOS most vehicles can never hide anyway.

Well for fun things, yeah Deff-Rolla's are good! Hell, if we were arguing fun then Broadsides might not even be on the list! Bt we're on about best, not most fun.

and with that, the pooping of the party is done...

Melissia wrote:Melta bombs are S8+2d6.
Kraks are S6+1d6.
Frags are S4+1d6.

At least if I'm reading this right.

Yep, just checked the rulebook. I was wrong on that one.

Oh... I thought you were just being sarcastic

Can't believe no one has said it yet: Ork Wierdboy. Zzap is 36" Melta that auto hits; sure it is only AP 2 but it is also Str 10.

That you also don't get to use exactly when you want to.

There is no anti-tank in the game that you can use exactly when you want to. There's always a risk of failure somewhere.

30 death company
30 thunder hammers
30 storm shields.

JOKING!

Lysander and 5 th ss termies in a land raider. deploy 12" away, move 6", shoot lascannons and multi-melta, disembark, assault 6". 15 S8 th attacks, 5 S10 th attacks addind +1 on damge charts: ouch.



OR a unit i field just to see how much it kills before dying:

5x vanguard veterans
4x power fists
5x meltabombs
5x jump packs
5x storm shields
thunder hammer. deep strike, assault straight away with the herioc intervention special rule- 5 meltabombs, 12 S8 attacks, and 4 S8 thunder hammer attacks. ouch again.

Even with limited ammunition a Manticore with its D3 s10 large blasts a turn stands a good chance of taking down a lot of armour over the course of a game. Amazing for its points.

I like Manticores, but they are unreliable at best, and stand a good chance of not doing anything over the course of a game.

For every time you get 3 shots, and they all hit, there will be a time that you get one shot and it scatters. Or even if you get 3 shots there's no guarantee that *any* of them will hit. One of the nice things about being str 10 ordnance is that off-center shots can still cause damage to rhinos, predators, chimeras, etc. on the side or back.

I have to say manticores have killed the crap out of my monoliths. Every time I have played one I lose at least one lith. He also fields two other s10 blasties... but its always the manticore thats got the killing shots. And if you would like to see his amazing manticore and medusas (edited after I found his blog) they're here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/289979.page

Hits from Medusa bastion breacher shells are more deadly than Zooanthrope warp lances. The tricky part is that it's a blast weapon so its accuracy depends on the size of the target. Walkers are harder to hit than Land Raiders.

I've had a lot of success with Pask in a Vanquisher as long as you don't base your AT entirely on that.

BS4, whatever you hit you will almost certainly penetrate and if thats not enough you get +1 to armour penetration if you stand still.

The old Vanquisher was still better though.

Best AT unit in the game though? Shadowsword.

Guys, Eldar fire dragons in a waveserpent. Argument over!

So, an intersting thing that every unit mention so far can do..

Is take down a single tank or armored vehicle.. in one turn. However, there is an anti-armor unit in the game can take down two vehicles in one turn


XV-88 Broadside Team, Team Lead with a hard-wired target lock and a targetting array. With 2 other suits with Targeting Arrays.

With S10, AP1, and a 72" range. This unit can take down two of ANY armored vehicle in the game in one turn.

Every other unit listed can only take out one vehicle per turn.

Simple math wins.

Well, I field Melta Vets in an Outlfanking Vendetta.

If the Vendetta doesn't score a kill on the side armour with three TL lascannons then the Vets will hopefully finish it off. It it does kill whatever it's shooting at that leaves the Vets free to shoot anything else in range. Hopefully something expensive.

Just Dave wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:best AT weapon.

Zoanthrope Warp Lance.

Range 24"(IIRC)

Str10

AP1

Lance


why, yes, I am penetrating your LR on 3+

I'm pleased you said WEAPON, rather than unit! As it's also the most unreliable with a spore pod, short-ish range, nullification and perils!


Best Unit? Likely Broadsides, although MM land speeders and fire dragons shouldn't be underestimated, however Broadsides have the range that is otherwise laking in most melta-weapons...

MM land speeders and bikes when fleeting have the 3++ jinking save. Fire dragons get decimated by the monoliths. Plus the broadsides are useless in CC and need proper backup, As part of a whole force, they'd take out a monolith for sure, but on their lonesome... you'd have only a few turns then boom.

Edit: Melta veterans actually ended up taking 5/6 structure points off a plague tower in a recent apocalypse game before getting steamrolled by the chaos terminators behind them.

10 man squad of Dark Eldar ( two with D. lances and two with blaster) 110 points that 36 in range stationary and 12 in range/ plus six for movement for 18 inches
10 man squad of Dark Eldar ( two with D lances) 100 points
3 man reaver jet bike squad armed with two blasters 95 points ( turbo boost get invul) and moves up too 24 inches

I think are great anti tank units( except for Monilith) then i have to use the talos...

1 talos 100 points( If it makes it too a tank)

Vanguard27 wrote:However, there is an anti-armor unit in the game can take down two vehicles in one turn

If that's the game you want to play, then I'll see your 2, and raise you one. A manticore rolling a 5 or 6 on the number of attacks it gets can put down three vehicles in one hit.

As for it being a case of "simple math", well, if you did said math, you'd find that other things do more damage to tanks over two turns, regardless of the fact that they kill one at a time, instead of trying to kill 2 at once.

Ailaros wrote:

Vanguard27 wrote:However, there is an anti-armor unit in the game can take down two vehicles in one turn

If that's the game you want to play, then I'll see your 2, and raise you one. A manticore rolling a 5 or 6 on the number of attacks it gets can put down three vehicles in one hit.

As for it being a case of "simple math", well, if you did said math, you'd find that other things do more damage to tanks over two turns, regardless of the fact that they kill one at a time, instead of trying to kill 2 at once.

Absolutely. you are correct. However, Broadsides get to shoot every turn also, So, 2 targets every turn still beats 1 target every turn. It really becomes an issue when you start talking about mobility, and can your 10 melta guns get into melta range every turn, ect ect... The OP didn't ever say the criteria, so Its very vague, and this whole thread is all opinion, and varies on what Criteria you decided to include. In my comparison above, I decided to use a single unit vs as many targets that it could reasonable engage in one turn, at optimal range.

But, when you look at probability A Mantacore is going to get an average of 2 shots per turn, at the same target.

To scatter to another target is luck, so Rate of Fire to multiple targets I give to the Broadsides. ADV: Broadsides

Ability to hit I give to the Bs4 (with Correct equipment) twin Linked vs the scatter dice at BS4. ADV: Broadsides

Manticore is AV4, Rails are AP1 So the broadsides get a +1, however, the Manticore is Barrage, which means you get to pick the best of 2 Both are S10 ADV: Neither

Rails have a 72 inch range, Manticore is 24-120, this is subjective and depends on the table and type of game. However, 120 inch range is very nice. Adv: Manticore

IF you chose to look at over the entire game, you have the manticore firing 4 times only, and the Broadsides firing every turn, so Adv: Broadsides, (if you chose to look at that)


All in all, I give the advantage to the Broadsides over the Manticore, allthough the large blast makes the manticore much nastier vs any infantry it scatters on.

Thanks!

Broadsides fo sho. In fact I'd say railguns are one of the strongest weapons in the game if not the strongest.

Anti armour....I'd say the gacking collossus bomb.

Its a 10, 000 pound bomb. Goodbye all tanks!

Doctadeth wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:best AT weapon.

Zoanthrope Warp Lance.

Range 24"(IIRC)

Str10

AP1

Lance


why, yes, I am penetrating your LR on 3+

I'm pleased you said WEAPON, rather than unit! As it's also the most unreliable with a spore pod, short-ish range, nullification and perils!


Best Unit? Likely Broadsides, although MM land speeders and fire dragons shouldn't be underestimated, however Broadsides have the range that is otherwise laking in most melta-weapons...

MM land speeders and bikes when fleeting have the 3++ jinking save. Fire dragons get decimated by the monoliths. Plus the broadsides are useless in CC and need proper backup, As part of a whole force, they'd take out a monolith for sure, but on their lonesome... you'd have only a few turns then boom.

Edit: Melta veterans actually ended up taking 5/6 structure points off a plague tower in a recent apocalypse game before getting steamrolled by the chaos terminators behind them.

On its lonesome a monolith only has a few turns then boom, pretty much anything needs support, not least Tau. Doesn't stop the Broadsides being the best anti-tank unit IMHO. It doesn't matter so much about their quality in close combat, their arguably better than veterans, attack bikes and fire dragons due to their durability.

Broadsides are tough, long ranged, str 10, AP1, twin-linked, cheap, capable of moving and shooting and capable of shooting at different targets. No other unit can provide that for the same price IMO.
The veterans have to get close at which point they get zapped or struggle to take down a monolith.
Fire Dragons stuggle with monoliths but do better than vets because of the number of melta's they can bring to bear.
Land Speeders only get the one shot each and even then that's relying on 6's and are fragile.
Broadsides can shoot at monoliths from across the board and are rightly feared by Necron players.

You may call me biased, I call me right.

I generally tend to throw a thirster or skarbrand at anything armoured.
Gets the job done without any problems.

For my BA: A basic unit of termies with 2-3 chainfists work just as well.

willydstyle wrote:Fire dragons. Up to 10 of them, they all have melta guns for 16 points a piece (unlike 30 for those sternguard), they can have tank hunters, and they have melta bombs just in case their shooting didn't do enough for you.

Combi melta's are only 5 pts FYI.

I was under the impression that stern guard are 25 points a piece, then 5 more for combi-meltas.

Jaon wrote:These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

Oh, I don't know. In my experience, wraithcannons make monoliths cry like Nancy Kerrigan.

Blood Angels Librarian, with honor guard.
honor guard take 5 Melta-guns
Librarian takes blood lance (if you are going for an AT unit)

and you can even throw a Lightning claw or Power fist on one or two or five of them for CC effective as well.


Edit: forgot the drop pod or razorback (Fast transports win)

Don't the witch or demon hunters have some type of melta bomb? is it a one time use, like a chapter master's orbital bombardment? Either way, I think melta bomb sounds like it could turn on some major league hurt.

they have orbital bombardments that come in every turn on a prepicked terrain feature.

3 to choose from

Lance Strike Str10, AP1, Large blast

Melta torpedo Str8, AP3, Large blast, Melta

Bombs Str4, AP5, Small blast, barrage 4

the lance strike isn't lance?

too bad they can't be guided. After the first turn, I'm guessing most enemies just keep their vehicles/troops (depending on what the bombardment is) off of the terrain feature. So could you call a lance strike or melta torpedo in on your own objective, then just move your own troops onto it on the final turn?

The inquisition's orbital strikes are pretty worthless.

Librarian takes blood lance (if you are going for an AT unit)

and you can even throw a Lightning claw or Power fist on one or two or five of them for CC effective as well.

Just a thought, but wouldnt a S10 libby be better than the fist?
That would also cut the points down a bit.
Just something about a S10 force weapon i like.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

Librarian takes blood lance (if you are going for an AT unit)

and you can even throw a Lightning claw or Power fist on one or two or five of them for CC effective as well.

Just a thought, but wouldnt a S10 libby be better than the fist?
That would also cut the points down a bit.
Just something about a S10 force weapon i like.

I thought that at first, but then i realized you can pop many vehicles with the lance, it all depends on what your opponent's army looks like.

then again, 4 or 5 meltaguns chew through any tank really well, no real need for the S10 weapon. better to use Unleashed rage and blood lance.

willydstyle wrote:I was under the impression that stern guard are 25 points a piece, then 5 more for combi-meltas.

True. but i thought you meant the melta upgrade itdelf my bad for assuming.

Has anyone mentioned a storm raven yet? 24" flat out, then power of machine spirit, twin linked multi melta, then in return a 4+ cover save...Thats 1-36" double dice range, and 37-48" single dice range, with ap1! Not to mention it gets a cover save for moving like that...

and then theres obliterators with any and every weapon for any and every tank. fisties, lascanons, multi melta, TL plasma gun, TL melta gun.

and then theres chosen chaos marines with 5 meltas and infiltrate/outflank in a rhino if you choose. thats 12" from the edge, 2.9" from the hull, and 1-6 double dice and 7-12 single dice with 5 guns.

Stormraven? Meh. One multi-melta isn't that hot for a 215+ point vehicle that isn't very hard to destroy even if it has a cover save. And anyway, tank hunting is far from its primary purpose.

That said, when moving 6" or less they can put out an impressive amount of shots between the assault cannon, typhon missile launcher, and four rockets.

My vote here goes to Broadsides, hands down. S10 AP 1 twin-linked weapons that can be fired at seperate targets? At BS5 with reduced cover saves if markerlights are involved? Hell yeah. Your Fire Dragons and meltavets got nothin' on Broadsides.

Minor correction regarding them, though: some people are under the impression they can move and shoot.

They can't.

They have heavy weapons. While units with jet packs have Relentless in 5th, go ahead and pop open your Tau codex for me, and take a look at Broadsides' unit type.

They can purchase an Advanced stabilization System which gives them slow and purposful.


For the most part i see it as a waste of points as they have a 72" range. the only thing its good for is if the enemy is close and you need to move backwards while shooting.

Grey Templar wrote:They can purchase an Advanced stabilization System which gives them slow and purposful.


For the most part i see it as a waste of points as they have a 72" range. the only thing its good for is if the enemy is close and you need to move backwards while shooting.

Precisely. It's an absolute waste of points, seeing as 1) Broadsides are already expensive as is, especially in groups of 2 or 3 (which is how you get the most bang for your buck with them), and 2) they can hit anything on the board without moving at all, and TLOS means vehicles really can't hide from them.

Oh, you want a 4+ cover save for that 96% obscured vehicle?

Expend two markerlight counters, then shoot.

Hey presto, dead vehicle.

yeah, the point is

you CAN allow them to move and shoot, but why would you need to?

IG suicide command squad in a Vendetta

4x Melta guns, with option of Bring it down order for twin linked, all in the safety of a tri las Cannon Vendetta.

I don't think dedicated transports or vehicles of any sort can be combined with a unit and be called "part" of that unit for the purposes of determining the "best single anti tank unit in the game."

Because they're seperate units.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, the point is

you CAN allow them to move and shoot, but why would you need to?

Dawn of War set up?

You play with the amount of, and composition of terrain that the rulebook suggests?

There's lots of reasons.

Nurglitch wrote:Zoanthropes.

We have a winner.

Three words. Twin. linked. Railguns.

10 Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

^ Because that hasn't been disproved 10 times.

Gamewise: Broadsides

But my real favourites are Tankbustas, I mean THEY MAKE ANTI-TANK HAMMERS BY TYING A ROKKIT TO A STICK!!! AND THEY TRAIN OVEREXCITABLE SQUIG SUICIDE BOMBERS!!!

Jaon wrote:^ Because that hasn't been disproved 10 times.

Uhh.. It hasn't? Because you never provided a definition of best, so it cannot be proved.

And even so, if it's been proved, then this thread shouldn't be open anymore.

Point is. Your OP said 'Whats your races favourite anti tank unit' and i stated it.

Mattieau wrote:

Jaon wrote:^ Because that hasn't been disproved 10 times.

Uhh.. It hasn't? Because you never provided a definition of best, so it cannot be proved.

And even so, if it's been proved, then this thread shouldn't be open anymore.

Point is. Your OP said 'Whats your races favourite anti tank unit' and i stated it.

I apologize for confusing you, but the first line did say what is the best anti tank unit.

Don't get all philosophical on me, the definition is pretty obvious. What does it best.

To give you a better, more detailed definition, what unit is most durable, likely to do its job, survive its job, rinse and repeat its job as many times as possible.

Your unit was disproved because it requires a transport. Without it, its cannon fodder.

I agree with broadsides, and zoanthropes. They are not perfect, but broadsides have the option of a couple 4++ inv saves, relentless, firing at different targets, and a 2+ armour save, not to mention their excellent weaponry. Zoanthropes are nigh on unstoppable unless you have mystics, str 10 ap 1 lance makes a joke out of all the other races lance weaponry, and for good reason, Tyranids need some reliable anti tank that they dont have to spend hundreds of dollars on converting (tyrannofex, I speak of you!)

Nor could firedragons touch a monolith. But neither could a vanquisher. Manticore, Medusa, Broadsides and zoanthropes could quite easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point proven?

Jaon wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Zoanthropes.

We have a winner.

Jaon wrote:^ Because that hasn't been disproved 10 times.

Zoanthropes have also.

They have a short range. Broadsides don't.

They are unreliable - psychic test, reliance on deep strike, perils and nullification. Broadsides are twin-linked and can be further upgraded.

They need to rely on DS to get close enough to the enemy to compensate for their Weapon Range, this is unreliable, more expensive and actually makes them more vulnerable.

Zoanthropes are fragile. Capable of hurting themselves, being lost in deepstrike and not tough as a statistic. Broadsides have good toughness, wounds and 2+ as-well as holding the back-board so are far away from both units natural threat of assault infantry.

If the Warp Lance was a weapon rather than psychic power then they COULD (range is still a major issue) be the best. However it simply makes them too unreliable to be classed even near the best anti-tank unit, which is even worse when combined with Deep-Strike and Short Range.

Two chaos Havok squads, or perhaps a fire prism. otherwise im not really sure its been nine years since ive played lol

Shadowsun. or broadsides.

I think 'best' all depends on range.

inside 6", any unit with more than two melta guns will wreck a tank no sweat (unless it's a monolith, and they can still hurt that if they roll a 6 for damage (wreck, thank you AP1)) At this range, noone takes more melta than Fire Dragons.

At 48" and beyond, the best anti tank will come from units that have more than one heavy long ranged weapon. Tau Broadside battlesuits, Long Fangs and Devastators, Obliterators, Havoks. Of these units, the ones with the most range and the most powerful guns are the Broadsides.

However, the best anti-tank will almost always come from an infantry unit, and this is why: You can force a tank to stop shooting with a single glance, if you shake it, there goes 90% of it's firepower. If it's a tank it can still ram/tank-shock, and land raiders can still PotMS, but they won't be shooting at full power. Infantry units can't be stunned or shaken, and it can be quite hard to make them run away normally. It's easy to silence a tank, and much harder to kill a whole squad of guys.

Acardia wrote:Shadowsun

Too bad she's worthless otherwise.

Shame, since she's got such a cool model.

Bane blade...enough said

Unreal Toast wrote:Bane blade...enough said

Shadow Sword. Enough Said.

Even so they're both a bit too expensive and unreasonable for the purposes of this thread IMHO...

Lol true.

How about a Type II Heavy anti grav tank

I really one want -_-

In a vacuum?

Zoanthropes and Broadsides are both brutal, at about the same level, as I see it. (Railguns are more reliable getting to armor pen rolls, Warp Lance is more reliable after it)

When you start adding other units/hoods/terrain/armies things get weird fast.

SaintHazard wrote:I don't think dedicated transports or vehicles of any sort can be combined with a unit and be called "part" of that unit for the purposes of determining the "best single anti tank unit in the game."

Because they're seperate units.

Then you can't count marker lights.

So, valks would be better (easier to get cover ignoring side shots).

Manticores would also be better since they hit side armor and have an easier time ignoring cover (depending on size of target though).

what about a squad of pink horrors and a changeling? they're cheap. +5 for a changeling and +10 for bolt of tzeentch. you've got a str 8 AP 1 weapon thats also assault. Also if you're opponent decides for some reason to fire heavy weapons at them you could make them blow up their own tank. Deffinately not the most reliable or effective, but the thought of making your opponent blow up his own weapon is pretty unique.

frenrik wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:I don't think dedicated transports or vehicles of any sort can be combined with a unit and be called "part" of that unit for the purposes of determining the "best single anti tank unit in the game."

Because they're seperate units.

Then you can't count marker lights.

So, valks would be better (easier to get cover ignoring side shots).

Manticores would also be better since they hit side armor and have an easier time ignoring cover (depending on size of target though).

Squad can take up to 6 marker drones if they really wanted too.

I was under the impression that you couldn't use markers from your own squad if they aren't networked.

You would be correct.

juicaj1 wrote:what about a squad of pink horrors and a changeling? they're cheap. +5 for a changeling and +10 for bolt of tzeentch. you've got a str 8 AP 1 weapon thats also assault. Also if you're opponent decides for some reason to fire heavy weapons at them you could make them blow up their own tank. Deffinately not the most reliable or effective, but the thought of making your opponent blow up his own weapon is pretty unique.

Actually, if your opponent decides to fire a heavy weapon at anything at all, as long as the heavy weapon is within 24", and the vehicle is in the Changeling's line of sight, you can make the heavy weapon fire at the vehicle.

Only downside is the firer has to fail a leadership check first, and if the firer is a vehicle, their Ld value is 10.

So it's unreliable at best.

Hilarious if it works, but it rarely does.

Firedragons hands down.

Nice I didn't catch that before. Wish I knew that before hahaha. Yeah it doesn't happen often but the first game I played using him against my friend he shot at it with a space marine heavy weapons squad first shooting of the game did that and failed his leader ship test. He had to turn his man with a lascannon to face his rocket launcher and watch has his squad blew him self to pieces. He wasn't too happy about that.

Broadsides, by far.

Umm, 10 Nob Bikers with Warboss.
Huge assault range, 11 wound, 5 Str 10 attacks, 40 Str 9 attacks.
Could probably get 4/5 rokkits and re rolls in there too assuring their 'mized to the max.

Definitely PK nob warbikers.

ChrisCP wrote:Umm, 10 Nob Bikers with Warboss.
Huge assault range, 11 wound, 5 Str 10 attacks, 40 Str 9 attacks.
Could probably get 4/5 rokkits and re rolls in there too assuring their 'mized to the max.

Gutsnagga wrote:Definitely PK nob warbikers.

OK, and the price of this unit is?

They could be if it wasn't for the fact they pretty much need to be in close combat and possibly cost more than any single tank...

Just Dave wrote:OK, and the price of this unit is?

Short of Flash Gitz and Looted Wagons, Nob Bikers are the most overpriced unit in the Ork codex.

So the answer is "too much to be worth it."

Nobs With powerclaws are the best for destroying tanks.

templeorks wrote:Nobs With powerclaws are the best for destroying tanks.

Unless they get shot down before they can even get close.

Say, by, oh... a Hammerhead's S6 AP4 large blast template?

The problem that all of this OMGBROADSIDESRAILGUNS is that broadsides don't ignore cover.

Against an opponent who really doesn't want a vehicle killed, you START with a -50% Add to that that there IS terrain that can completely block LOS (buildings and the like), and those railguns are 100% ineffective.

Yeah, they're S10 and AP1. No, this doesnt' automatically make them the best.

Broadsides can take Drone Controllers and Drones with Networked Markerlights.

As Nurglitch has said. Also, which of the units/attacks mentioned do ignore cover? Not that many...
The potential of cover isn't enough to dispute the superiority of Broadsides IMHO.

Exactly what the two gentlemen above me just said.

Markerlights, yo.

And the drones are only necessary if we're just talking about the one single unit (which, in this thread, we are), and not a number of units working in tandem.

When you actually plop some Broadsides down on the tabletop, they'll probably be paired with some Pathfinders. That's when gak gets real.

But until then, we can still put forward a unit of Broadsides with Marker Drones (potentially up to six) as the "best single anti tank unit in the game."

It's also worth mentioning that IG can't field any reliable anti-tank that doesn't involve a transport, with the sole exception of the Manticore (and even then, the template makes it iffy - most hits will be S5 hits). And my Broadsides can reliably pop your transports from my table edge, and then some.

SaintHazard wrote:the Manticore (and even then, the template makes it iffy - most hits will be S5 hits).

Except for the part where that's not true, you'd be right.

And artillery hits side armor, unlike broadsides, which means it's effectively a few points of str higher than a broadside. Firing IF ignores cover completely for free (while you had to sacrifice shield drones otherwise) and can attack targets completely out of LOS.

Furthermore the # of penetrating hits: points ratio is pretty bad with broadsides compared to other options.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Broadsides hands down imo

- S10 AP1
- Twin-linked
- 72" range (no having to expose yourself to angry CC units that are looking for revenge for putting a big hole in the side of thier ride)
- can benefit from marker lights to reduce or remove cover saves
- can be equipped to be able to individually target seperate units, giving the possibility for one unit to kill 3 seperate vehicles a turn.

you forgot the 12 str 5 shots that go around cover at 24" you can unleash once the tanks are gone. This is why they beat any other anti tank, because they do it better than almost anything else, tie the rest, and can switch to anti-infantry after they run out of stuff to shoot.

The problem that all of this OMGBROADSIDESRAILGUNS is that broadsides don't ignore cover.

correct, broadsides don't, Pathfinders do.... oh wait, you can take marker drones, so YES BROADSIDES DO IGNORE COVER!

But until then, we can still put forward a unit of Broadsides with Marker Drones (potentially up to six) as the "best single anti tank unit in the game."

theres also the shield drones that soak up wounds like theres no tomorrow meaning that even a few HWS worth of lascannons isn't going to touch your precious broadsides.

@Ailaros

Um, okay? Instead of just shooting down my comment out of hand, you want to explain why, when the center of the Manticore's blast marker scatters off of the vehicle, it doesn't become an S5 hit?

Lemme explain how blast markers work when you're trying to pen a vehicle, and why they're not BETTER at it than Broadsides firing directly.

When you're shooting, say, a BS3 railgun at a Predator's front armor, you need to roll a 4 to hit (50%), then a 3 to glance, or a 4, 5 or 6 to pen. Let's just say we want to pen here, so you need a 4+ (50%).

When you're shooting D3 BS3 Manticore missiles at a Predator's side armor (since ordnance barrage hits "top" armor, which uses side AV), you'd love to get a direct hit (33%), but if it scatters, depending on which direction it scatters, you need to roll a 6 or less on two dice (50%) so that it doesn't scatter the rough 3" needed for it to scatter off the Predator (and I'm being generous here, the Predator is not 3" wide, but we're going to use my very generous 3" just for the sake of this argument). You then need to roll a 2 to glance, and a 3, 4, 5, or 6 to pen. So, you pen on a 3+ (66%). I'm not going to bother mathhammering out your chances of penning if you scatter off the hull of the Predator, because a S5 hit won't pen.

So let's break this down:

3 Broadsides firing 3 twin-linked S10 shots:
3 * 1/2 * 2 * 1/2 = 1.5, or a 150% chance to pen (effectively one guaranteed pen, and a 50% chance of a second pen)

1 Manticore firing 1-3 S10 ordnance barrage missile:
1 * 5/6 * 2/3 = .55, or 55%
2 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 1.11, or 111%
3 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 1.66, or 166% chance to pen

Now there's a 33% chance of any of the three above results, effectively resulting in a 110% chance to pen ((.55 + 1.11 + 1.66) / 3).

Which is why the Manticore is NOT more likely to pen than a trio of Broadsides, even though it's hitting side armor.

you forgot manticores are AP 4 while broadsides are ap 1, meaning they will reliably kill a vehilce better being that they CAN kill a vehicle on a glance and only 1/6 pens won't be a permanent result.

gendoikari87 wrote:you forgot manticores are AP 4 while broadsides are ap 1, meaning they will reliably kill a vehilce better being that they CAN kill a vehicle on a glance and only 1/6 pens won't be a permanent result.

This is also true! I forgot about the vehicle damage chart.

Score one more for Broadsides.

it's a moot point it's generally accepted that broadsides and railguns in generall are the best long range anti-tank, a close second is FB crisis suits. Anti tank is what the tau have in spades and they're still on the low end of the power scale.

Also if you want to put plasma rifle instead of the SMS on the broadsides then AV12 and lower became seriously endangered. provided they reach the 24 inch range.

The point certainly has been mooted; that's why we're discussing it...

Acardia wrote:Also if you want to put plasma rifle instead of the SMS on the broadsides then AV12 and lower became seriously endangered. provided they reach the 24 inch range.

I personally never would, though... given the option of one TL S6 AP 2 shot at 24" versus four S5 AP5 shots at the same range, statistically the four S5 shots will cause more wounds, even against 2+ armored targets... and the plasma rifle is a 10 point upgrade for already expensive Broadsides.

But you're right, in that it can be done.

It's 2d6 Pick the highest for pen for ordinance making it 8/9 ( 1 - chance to not pen = 1 - 1/3 * 1/3 = 1 - 1/9 = 8/9 ) chance to penetrate. Also, you could pen on the back armor on a 6, but let's just say that's cancelled out by the fact that it's not actually 3" wide.

1 Manticore firing 1-3 S10 ordnance barrage missile:
1 * 8/9 * 2/3 = .59 or 59%
2 * 8/9 * 2/3 = 1.18, or 118%
3 * 8/9 * 2/3 = 1.77, or 177% chance to pen

(1 * 8/9 * 2/3) + (2 * 8/9 * 2/3) + (3 * 8/9 * 2/3) / 3
=(8/9*2/3) * (1 + 2 + 3) / 3 = (8/9*2/3 ) 2 = 1.18%

Also, your broadside chance to hit is 3/4, not 1 ( 1 - chance to miss twice = 1 - 1/2 * 1/2 = 3 / 4)
chance to hit = 3/4
chance to pen = 1/2
number of shots = 3

So, 3*3/4*1/2 = 9/8 = 1.12

1.18 > 1.12

Hm.

I'm rolling a few misses today, obviously.

I'll shut up now.

However, I do have to point out that you're still forgetting that the railgun is an AP1 weapon, giving it a greater chance to destroy a vehicle it pens, and a chance to destroy a vehicle it glances (which the Manticore simply cannot do unless the vehicle is already disarmed and immobilized).

Both of your math is wrong. You *never* have a greater than 100% chance to succeed.

willydstyle wrote:Both of your math is wrong. You *never* have a greater than 100% chance to succeed.

Yes you can.

Keep in mind there are three firers.

I actually said this in my post.

Basically, 118% chance of a pen means "probably one, but more likely to be two than zero."

Really, so you're saying there's a situation where a unit is *guaranteed* to do damage? I'd love to use this magical unit you speak of.

Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:My money is still on a unit of Fire Dragons.

I use two units of 6 w/ Exarch and tank hunters in Serpents. Love them and in reality Eldar can not function without them.

I'd disagree with this statement. Whilst it is effective in a mech list it's next to useless in a footslogging list.

I've seen foot slogging Eldar do very well for themselves without any fire dragons.

If we're looking for something to reliably kill monoliths as well as other armour, wraithguard are the best option in the Eldar army.

Very expensive cash and points wise though.

I change my vote to:
Battlewagon W/ DEFROLLA!!!!!!!!

Fire Dragons are also short ranged meaning that after they do their part they're likely to either not be in range of another vehicle or die trying to get to one. where as broadsides are not in any immediate danger after they pop their first tank, and are generally in range of any other tank out there.

Just Dave wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Umm, 10 Nob Bikers with Warboss.
Huge assault range, 11 wound, 5 Str 10 attacks, 40 Str 9 attacks.
Could probably get 4/5 rokkits and re rolls in there too assuring their 'mized to the max.

Gutsnagga wrote:Definitely PK nob warbikers.

OK, and the price of this unit is?

They could be if it wasn't for the fact they pretty much need to be in close combat and possibly cost more than any single tank...

Andd the title is "Best single anti tank unit" and they are.

They might be unweildy, expensive and only start to be a threat at 18" but, they have 3++/5++/4+/4+FNP Potential 11 wounds to lose a model and make tanks go tinkle?

Cost effective, no not at all. Going to break more tanks than anythign else, yes. Able to kill anything in addition to making monoliths crumble? Yep.

But no, expensive :(

For pure destructive power without factoring gameplay so much...I don't think anything is more reliable at tearing apart armor than Old One Eye.

I still say the Type II Heavy Anti Grav Tank from FW should probably do the job, although it does cost £130

willydstyle wrote:Really, so you're saying there's a situation where a unit is *guaranteed* to do damage? I'd love to use this magical unit you speak of.

Don't be obtuse.

On average, Broadsides will pop one Rhino per turn, based on the math.

It's not a complicated concept.

For my Black Templar, I've found that a 5 man terminator squad with 2 assault cannons and the tank hunters veteran ability does pretty quick work. Toss in a couple of chainfists, and they're even better.

kronk wrote:For my Black Templar, I've found that a 5 man terminator squad with 2 assault cannons and the tank hunters veteran ability does pretty quick work. Toss in a couple of chainfists, and they're even better.

Ouch.

8 S6 rending shots.

That's a beast.

You could take down Land Raiders with that sucker.

Technically it's math for the expected number of penetrations, with a great number of assumptions.

I also forgot about the ap 1 in my math.

broadsides chance to destroy av 13 with 3 shots is 0.4636
(ignoring glances)

Odds for manticores (assuming 2/3 chance to hit) is
1 shot 0.1975, 2 shot 0.3560, 3 shot 0.4832

So, I'll concede that as long as you have LOS, broadsides are better than manticores at taking out a predator.

ChrisCP wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Umm, 10 Nob Bikers with Warboss.
Huge assault range, 11 wound, 5 Str 10 attacks, 40 Str 9 attacks.
Could probably get 4/5 rokkits and re rolls in there too assuring their 'mized to the max.

Gutsnagga wrote:Definitely PK nob warbikers.

OK, and the price of this unit is?

They could be if it wasn't for the fact they pretty much need to be in close combat and possibly cost more than any single tank...

Andd the title is "Best single anti tank unit" and they are.

They might be unweildy, expensive and only start to be a threat at 18" but, they have 3++/5++/4+/4+FNP Potential 11 wounds to lose a model and make tanks go tinkle?

Cost effective, no not at all. Going to break more tanks than anythign else, yes. Able to kill anything in addition to making monoliths crumble? Yep.

But no, expensive :(

The OP also says that you would sanely use in a game, please no 30 death company here, which kind of removes your unit from the tank hunting genepool

Somethings to think about in Broadside vs Manticore

Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to move and fire (undamaged)
Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to target an enemy ( undamaged)
Broadsides cannot bypass LOS blocking terrain in any way, shape or form.
Manticores have 120 range.
Broadsides do not run out of ammo
Broadsides are situationally more durable than manticores
Broadsides have wounds
Manticores are immune to small arms fire
Manticores can kill more infantry (off topic, but it was mentioned earlier) than any amount of broadsides every could.
Broadsides are in excess of 210 points for 3...so please do your mathhammer on 2 broadsides with upgrades. Then we will see who is better.

So. It would take a squad of broadsides effectively 5 turns to walk 48' into their range and set up to fire, by which time they will have eaten anywhere between 16 and 4 str 10 blasts...and will then face the wrath of a 12 10 10 chassis with a...most vengeful heavy bolter...

But thats just being ridiculous

But if the manticore moves, it loses the benefits of ignoring many types of cover and hitting side armor.

Of which the broadside never had the option.

frenrik wrote:Technically it's math for the expected number of penetrations, with a great number of assumptions.

I also forgot about the ap 1 in my math.

broadsides chance to destroy av 13 with 3 shots is 0.4636
(ignoring glances)

Odds for manticores (assuming 2/3 chance to hit) is
1 shot 0.1975, 2 shot 0.3560, 3 shot 0.4832

So, I'll concede that as long as you have LOS, broadsides are better than manticores at taking out a predator.

um with broadsides you hve something like .5625 chance of killing av 13 ignoring glances with glances the chance comes to .625

manticores are something on the order of .333 on average with a guaranteed 3 shots and that's being generous giving missed shots a 50% chance of not scattering off the vehicle.... Check your math

The OP also says that you would sanely use in a game, please no 30 death company here, which kind of removes your unit from the tank hunting genepool

Somethings to think about in Broadside vs Manticore

Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to move and fire (undamaged) A.S.S. Says broadsides can do the same thing
Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to target an enemy ( undamaged) In the realm of TLOS, Broadsides can to 99% of the time
Broadsides cannot bypass LOS blocking terrain in any way, shape or form. TLOS means this is no big issue
Manticores have 120 range. And broadsides can still hit you from opposite corners of the board, 120 inch range means nothing
Broadsides do not run out of ammo
Broadsides are situationally more durable than manticores
Broadsides have wounds They also have really good saves and drones that can eat a lascannon or melta gun to the face
Manticores are immune to small arms fire And a good broadside squad is immune to the first few round lascannon HWS fire
Manticores can kill more infantry (off topic, but it was mentioned earlier) than any amount of broadsides every could. Kill more yes, but broadsides can get around intervening terrain
Broadsides are in excess of 210 points for 3...so please do your mathhammer on 2 broadsides with upgrades. Then we will see who is better.

Okay,
2 Broadsides [170] [Drone controllers, 2 Shield Drones]

So. It would take a squad of broadsides effectively 5 turns to walk 48' into their range and set up to fire, by which time they will have eaten anywhere between 16 and 4 str 10 blasts...and will then face the wrath of a 12 10 10 chassis with a...most vengeful heavy bolter...

But thats just being ridiculous

Irrelevant, a broadside will be in range turn one on any normal board anyway. at the end of the day, the manticore is not a tank hunter, it's a good horde killer, and 4+ infantry annihilator

Of which the broadside never had the option.

A.S.S. Makes them relentless, which I think (could be wrong) gets passed on to the marker drones so in effect the broadside can move and ignore cover and the manticore cannot.

gendoikari just made my point for me, so instead of typing out a long-winded reply to Jaon, I simply refer you to his post. ^

I said good day!

Okay, here is the formula I used

3/4 (hit) * 1/2 (pen) * 1/2 (chance to destroy) = 3/16 chance for 1 shot to destroy

Chance to destroy = 1 - chance to not get a destroy result
= 1 - (1-3/16)^3 = = 1 - (13/16) ^ 3 = 1-0.54 = 0.46 = 46%

Maybe you could enlighten me on what's incorrect.

As far as TLOS goes, maybe where you play it's not an issue. My game shop has this nice building that's about 10" by 10" that is a good 9" tall that totally blocks line of sight.

frenrik wrote:Okay, here is the formula I used

3/4 (hit) * 1/2 (pen) * 1/2 (chance to destroy) = 3/16 chance for 1 shot to destroy

Chance to destroy = 1 - chance to not get a destroy result
= 1 - (1-3/16)^3 = = 1 - (13/16) ^ 3 = 1-0.54 = 0.46 = 46%

Maybe you could enlighten me on what's incorrect.

As far as TLOS goes, maybe where you play it's not an issue. My game shop has this nice building that's about 10" by 10" that is a good 9" tall that totally blocks line of sight.

for a broadside it would be

To hit: (.5)+((1-.5)*.5)

To penetrate .5

To destroy .5

However you left off that a glancing hit can still destroy on a 6

Cover that blocking building is pretty rare, and can be often avoided during deployment.

Also tables aren't 120 inches across.

So these factors should be ignored in general consideration of Broadside vs Manticore.

As mentioned above, Broadsides also have a great anti-infantry and light vehicle weapon (Smart Missile System) in addition to their railguns. Zoanthropes have got their Warp Blast, of course, but can't use that and the lance at the same time.

A two Broadside team has a 93.25% chance to score a hit, ignoring cover and markerlights. A three Broadside team has a 98.44% chance to score a hit. They can score multiple hits. When the SMS is in range, they can score many useful hits against squadrons and light vehicles.

SaintHazard wrote:

kronk wrote:For my Black Templar, I've found that a 5 man terminator squad with 2 assault cannons and the tank hunters veteran ability does pretty quick work. Toss in a couple of chainfists, and they're even better.

Ouch.

8 S6 rending shots.

That's a beast.

You could take down Land Raiders with that sucker.

ok I change my vote again, 3 Landspeeders in a Squadron with Multi-Meltas and Assault cannons (12 S6 rending shots and 3 MultiMelta shots per turn)

A bit short ranged and thin skinned but fast, so i think they might beat the broadsides as best AT, but it all depends on what you prefer at that point, short or long range.

Actually, that's exactly what I run in large games - three Land Speeders, each with AC and MM. It's not cheap, though. 300 points exactly (100 per).

In smaller games, I run just one, or two seperately.

They pop Land Raiders like it's nothing.

They even glance Monoliths to death.

Personally, my "Chaos Renegade with Lascannon" when I field him. Has 1 confirmed Land Raider Kill to his credit. 15 points base pulse 35 point Lascannon equals 50 points.

Or Kharn at 165 who has 1 confirmed Land Raider Kill as well. I was facing a Black Templar's player who kept his Land Raider still and let Kharn charge it. Round 1: Immobilized, Round 2: Hurricane Bolter destroyed, Round 3: Explosion!!

For my Space Marines, I haven't had anything destroy a Land Raider yet. But I have had one immobilize itself on terrain.

gendoikari87 wrote:

frenrik wrote:Technically it's math for the expected number of penetrations, with a great number of assumptions.

I also forgot about the ap 1 in my math.

broadsides chance to destroy av 13 with 3 shots is 0.4636
(ignoring glances)

Odds for manticores (assuming 2/3 chance to hit) is
1 shot 0.1975, 2 shot 0.3560, 3 shot 0.4832

So, I'll concede that as long as you have LOS, broadsides are better than manticores at taking out a predator.

um with broadsides you hve something like .5625 chance of killing av 13 ignoring glances with glances the chance comes to .625

manticores are something on the order of .333 on average with a guaranteed 3 shots and that's being generous giving missed shots a 50% chance of not scattering off the vehicle.... Check your math

The OP also says that you would sanely use in a game, please no 30 death company here, which kind of removes your unit from the tank hunting genepool

Somethings to think about in Broadside vs Manticore

Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to move and fire (undamaged) A.S.S. Says broadsides can do the same thing Adding even more points to your unit.
Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to target an enemy ( undamaged) In the realm of TLOS, Broadsides can to 99% of the time Stop bsing, thats a complete lie
Broadsides cannot bypass LOS blocking terrain in any way, shape or form. TLOS means this is no big issue once again, Almost every game I play theres los blocking cover like bunkers and bastions. Terrible point
Manticores have 120 range. And broadsides can still hit you from opposite corners of the board, 120 inch range means nothing Apocalypse anyone? Stop trying to remove the good points of the manticore because of your fanboy love of broadsides.
Broadsides do not run out of ammo (See how you didnt argue with these?)
Broadsides are situationally more durable than manticores (as above)
Broadsides have wounds They also have really good saves and drones that can eat a lascannon or melta gun to the face Manticores can also place baneblades next to them
Manticores are immune to small arms fire And a good broadside squad is immune to the first few round lascannon HWS fire A good broadside team will be lucky to survive 3 lascannon hits unscathed.
Manticor es can kill more infantry (off topic, but it was mentioned earlier) than any amount of broadsides every could. Kill more yes, but broadsides can get around intervening terrain um....this is probably the worst point Ive seen on dakka. Manticores can fire over intervening terrain.
Broadsides are in excess of 210 points for 3...so please do your mathhammer on 2 broadsides with upgrades. Then we will see who is better. Ignored my point?

Okay,
2 Broadsides [170] [Drone controllers, 2 Shield Drones]

So. It would take a squad of broadsides effectively 5 turns to walk 48' into their range and set up to fire, by which time they will have eaten anywhere between 16 and 4 str 10 blasts...and will then face the wrath of a 12 10 10 chassis with a...most vengeful heavy bolter...

But thats just being ridiculous

Irrelevant, a broadside will be in range turn one on any normal board anyway. at the end of the day, the manticore is not a tank hunter, it's a good horde killer, and 4+ infantry annihilator At the end of the day, 3 broadsides with drones and A.S.S costs twice as much as a manticore.

Of which the broadside never had the option.

A.S.S. Makes them relentless, which I think (could be wrong) gets passed on to the marker drones so in effect the broadside can move and ignore cover and the manticore cannot.

You're really still trying to bend reality to make an anti-infantry killing machine into a tank hunter? The fact of the matter is that the Manticore can not compete with Broadsides as AT, They don't even compete well with other guard choices such as vanquishers, Melta vets or even vendettas, which are at best on par with the broadsides.

at the end of the day, the broadside can ignore obscured saves, has the same str as the manticore, but is AP 1 and is much more accurate. (being on average BS 4 twinlinked).

and at the end of the day, if you're using a manticore as anti tank, something is amiss.

2 Broadsides are about the same cost, and 3 aren't much more expensive, no where near the 320 points you claim, but even one BS is better at tank killing than three manticores.

Even taking average point values and average performance you have for a manticore

2/3 chance to hit (very generous), .5 chance to penetrate, and heres the important part 2/6 chance to kill, so for the average of 2 shots you get about 22% chance to kill for 160 points or a point efficiancy of .0013

Taking a 100 point broadside with NO markerlight help, you get 3/4 chance to hit, .5 chance to pen, and .5 chance to kill plus whatever you get from glances, but for now we shall ignore glances. That gives you .18% Chance to kill. At 100 points that's a point efficiancy of .0018

which makes the broadside about 1.38 times better than a manticore per point.

and the manticore is a freshly new weapon system, but tau are an OLD codex meaning much less efficient than it should be. ... assuming codex creep.

i would say that broadsides are effective but abaddon (think i spelt his name right ) is the king. i have heard of him making piecemail out of land raiders and even baneblades before due to his powerful daemon weapons and strong wounds. non-charecter units i would say long fangs due to thier ability to target individual targerts and take missile launchers very cheaply. so for the price of a squad of broadsides you could have about 15 missile launchers targetting multiple leman russ or chimeras. hoep i helped

Jaon wrote:What do you honestly think is the best anti tank unit in the game?

Please, to keep things reasonable, squad sizes have a maximum of 10. Or, better yet, give an example of something you would actually use, please no 30 death company with 30 thunder hammers and 30 storm shields.


Personally, I would say Broadsides with advanced stabilization system, or Manticore, or maybe even the Vanquisher with pask.

Opinions? Whats your races favourite anti tank unit and how do you use it.

Sternguard in a drop pod with 10 combi-meltas in a vulkan lead army.

Done!

tgf wrote:

Jaon wrote:What do you honestly think is the best anti tank unit in the game?

Please, to keep things reasonable, squad sizes have a maximum of 10. Or, better yet, give an example of something you would actually use, please no 30 death company with 30 thunder hammers and 30 storm shields.


Personally, I would say Broadsides with advanced stabilization system, or Manticore, or maybe even the Vanquisher with pask.

Opinions? Whats your races favourite anti tank unit and how do you use it.

Sternguard in a drop pod with 10 combi-meltas in a vulkan lead army.

Done!

melta's of any kind are king of anti tank, they're just short rangeds, not a big problem if you deep strike. even DSing storm troopers with meltas will reliably kill anything


also, WTF, Long fangs get 10 point missile launchers? That's just so wrong. I mean anything that's str 8 that makes av 14 shake in it's boots is just evil.

Edit: str 8 and not melta.

They get them for 10 points becaise they only have one even vaguely ablative wound in the Sarge.

Long Fangs are not the best anti-tank because of their price and strength of shooting. If they have missiles then they're unreliable for AT. Missiles are used for their flexibility rather than their anti-tank capacity.

Broadsides are at-least superior to Long Fangs in anti-tank. IMHO they're the best - without dispute - at anti-tank.

Sternguard with combi-melta's are incredibly effective against a tank. any tank.
however, and this is a big HOWEVER, they're expensive, short-ranged, unreliable due to deep-strike and a one-hit use. Also they will struggle against the likes of a monolith.

I know it's been mentioned already, but my favourite is a Wave Serpent loaded full of Fire Dragons.

Despite the fact that last game I used them, they rocked up next to a Land Speeder and failed to destroy it.... Normally, though, 99 times out of a hundred, they will kill whatever tank I point them at =)

..... w.....wh..... okay you lost me. A land speeder, av 12 FRONT, took 10 fire dragons meaning they needed a 4 on 2d6 to glance, and they did nothing? Did you roll nothing but 2's and 1's

Fail

Speeders are 10 all around.


your FDs would have had to all roll double 1s to glance.

People have been WAY over analyzing the manticore vs. broadside debate. I don't know how much a manticore costs, but it seems to be that they have a minimum range. Is this true? Because if it is, then broadsides all the way. No deepstriking blood angels LR full of thunder hammers is going to get those boys(/girl pilots)! Just saying, 1 heavy bolter sponson doesn't do squat (oops, can't say that word with gw aroud) against deepstriking anti tank squads.

willydstyle wrote:Fire dragons. Up to 10 of them, they all have melta guns for 16 points a piece (unlike 30 for those sternguard), they can have tank hunters, and they have melta bombs just in case their shooting didn't do enough for you.

If that's not enough... A farseer guiding unit will improve the accuracy.

micahaphone wrote:People have been WAY over analyzing the manticore vs. broadside debate. I don't know how much a manticore costs, but it seems to be that they have a minimum range. Is this true? Because if it is, then broadsides all the way. No deepstriking blood angels LR full of thunder hammers is going to get those boys(/girl pilots)! Just saying, 1 heavy bolter sponson doesn't do squat (oops, can't say that word with gw aroud) against deepstriking anti tank squads.

You can get around minimum range by firing direct.

Ah. That makes a lot more sense. What is the minimum range?

24". Ordnance Barrage weapons can choose to fire as normal Ordnance weapons unless specified otherwise (as griffins and colossi do in the Guard codex.

I agree broadsides are better than manticores, but the dude on page 6 was purposely dissing the manticore and glorifying the broadside, so I smacked him one

While the railgun is very effective at jacking a single target a manticore can rip a small cluster of vehicles pretty good.

tgf wrote:While the railgun is very effective at jacking a single target a manticore can rip a small cluster of vehicles pretty good.

Please either explain how this is remotely possible, or re-read the rules for blast weapons.

Manticores use large blast templates.

If you're firing three missiles, you'd have to have one of EACH score direct hits on a squadron of three vehicles with one aimed at each, or scatter onto three vehicles, which is extremely unlikely.

If they scatter pretty much at all, they're going to inflict a S5 hit against the vehicle, since only the center of the blast marker inflicts a S10 hit.

And even against rear armor (which a quarter of the time, it could hit) a S5 hit is unreliable at best.

Str 5 with roll-two-pick-the-best has about a 30% chance to pen rear armor 10, with another 30% chance to glance. If two rhinos (for example) are parked one in front of the other, you place your shot on the front of the rear tank. That way any hits on the rear tank will be a full strength hit, with another half-strength hit on the AV 10 of the tank in front.

gendoikari87 wrote:You're really still trying to bend reality to make an anti-infantry killing machine into a tank hunter?

A manticore is not strictly an infantry-killing machine. If all I wanted to do is kill infantry, I would take a pair of Griffons instead, who share the same AP, also wound on 2+, are way more accurate, and give me two hull heavy flamers rather than one. For 10 points less.

The fact of the matter is that the Manticore can not compete with Broadsides as AT, They don't even compete well with other guard choices such as vanquishers, Melta vets or even vendettas, which are at best on par with the broadsides.

While the Manticore cannot match the AT-prowess of a fully kitted out Broadside unit, its high strength, ordnance status, and possible multiple shots make it quite an adept tank hunter. Whether firing directly or indirectly, you roll a hit 1/3 of the time. With an average of 2 shots, you have 58% chance of landing a S10 ordnance hit on anything you target. Then add various beneficial scatters, and you actually have a very accurate and powerful AT weapon at your disposal. Certainly far more impressive than the vanquisher, which misses half the time, is a glorified missile launcher against waveserpents and monoliths, and is actually less likely to penetrate most vehicles except landraiders, against which it averages half as many hits. What's next, are you going to suggest Pask? Please, let's not resort to such lowbrow humor.

As someone who uses melta vets, vendettas, and manticores extensively, I see all three of these choices as key components of my AT arsenal. Manticores and Vendettas are equal in their usefulness. Vendettas take out light and medium vehicles, while the manticores tackle the landraiders and monoliths. As secondary roles, Vendettas take out monstrous creatures, while manticores bombard infantry. Melta veterans are of course the bomb, but since I never use more than two units, I hesitate throwing away a mobile (relative to platoons) scoring unit unless it's really worth it. My vets are more opportunists, and are frequently packing a demo charge and maybe even a flamer. Like the Vendettas and manticores, they assume roles on an as-needed basis, whether blowing the crap out of vehicles with meltaguns/bombs, killing swathes of infantry (with the chimera's help, of course), or simply bunkering down on an objective.

at the end of the day, the broadside can ignore obscured saves, has the same str as the manticore, but is AP 1 and is much more accurate. (being on average BS 4 twinlinked).

Yes, at the end of the day, the broadsides are the best AT unit in the game.

and at the end of the day, if you're using a manticore as anti tank, something is amiss..

No, at the end of the day you're playing 5th edition Tankhammer, where before you can get at the infantry you have to chew through a wall of steel, and thus far the manticore has shown itself quite adept in both roles.

TL;DR : quit dissing the manticore, or I'll make you eat your pets!

SaintHazard wrote:

tgf wrote:While the railgun is very effective at jacking a single target a manticore can rip a small cluster of vehicles pretty good.

Please either explain how this is remotely possible, or re-read the rules for blast weapons.

Manticores use large blast templates.

Its S10, you get best of 2d6. 2/3's of the time it scatters an average of 4 inches. a vehicle cluster will usually allow you to stay full strength with in the average scatter. You shoot d3 missiles so on successive hits you can flip the template in your desired direction or just keep it where it is for another hit. It also gives you s5 hits on non-hole models which is often times enough to glance or pen troop transports. Its not a bad weapon for a cluster of vehicles. I am not sure how anyone can mathematically say a S10 best of 2d6 penetration weapon is not a good vehicle killer. As others have pointed out, it serves double duty against troops as well. Seems to be a universally useful item in the game. In the context of this thread, there is nothing wrong with it as a tank hunter.

Darklances

*the galaxy implodes*

bucketwalrus wrote:Darklances

*the galaxy implodes*

Not a unit.

If you said "tri-darklance ravager" you might be on to something. However, most good DE generals will take disintegrators on their Ravagers, because they get plenty of lances out of the rest of the list, so you have a great anti-tank unit that just doesn't fit into the list.

Any unit armed with a darklance is immediately deemed a powerful anti-tank unit. ravagers are indeed a powerful example. but the ravager is ALSO a very weak vehicle. It'll most likely pop one tank before being killed by anti-light tank weaponry, unless you roll like a god and dominate the game with it.

Ive seen a single unit of warriors with 1 dark lance kill 3 tanks before being mashed by some assault.

broads sides, like everyone has said. Are indeed powerful anti-tank. but from personal experience. the most they've ever done to me is score a single immobalised on a rhino (which i fixed next turn! lol)
mostly bad rolls on his part, but it all comes down to dice rolls in the end.

Jaon wrote:I agree broadsides are better than manticores, but the dude on page 6 was purposely dissing the manticore and glorifying the broadside, so I smacked him one

That's because the Manticore is the king of anti-infantry/ MC weapon, Using it as AT is a travesty.

gendoikari87 wrote:..... w.....wh..... okay you lost me. A land speeder, av 12 FRONT, took 10 fire dragons meaning they needed a 4 on 2d6 to glance, and they did nothing? Did you roll nothing but 2's and 1's

It was actually 5 Fire Dragons, but pretty much, yeah. Not my finest moment of dice-rolling =P

Tau has some great stuff. A squad of broadsides can land down 3 S10 AP1 shots at BS3 twin linked (equal to BS 4,5) from 72" away.


Otherwise, a squad of vanquishers can do so much harm. Three melta rounds up to a long range.

Suicidal Cheez wrote:Three melta rounds up to a long range.

Uh.

How does that work, exactly?

Explain it to us.

We'll wait while you go get your IG codex.

SaintHazard wrote:

Suicidal Cheez wrote:Three melta rounds up to a long range.

Uh.

How does that work, exactly?

Explain it to us.

We'll wait while you go get your IG codex.

It's not a melta shot, the vanquisher just rolls 2d6 for armor penetration. Just LIKE melta within half range. no AP 1 though. which sucks ... SOOOOOO much.

gendoikari87 wrote:It's not a melta shot, the vanquisher just rolls 2d6 for armor penetration. Just LIKE melta within half range. no AP 1 though. which sucks ... SOOOOOO much.

Exactly.

Don't confuse terms. Melta weapons work differently from Vanquishers, they only happen to share that single characteristic.

Actually the best AV weapon in the game is on the Goff Claw Stompa. Hits auto-pen and its +2 on the VDR table. 3+ to destory.

The worst possible result is a weapon destoryed.

willydstyle wrote:

Jaon wrote:These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

I base my anti-tank prowess more on being able to kill rhinos consistently than monoliths, because frankly you don't often *need* to kill monoliths when playing against Necrons, and on a day-to-day basis you're way more likely to fight a rhino than a monolith, or even a land raider.

Another unit that has not been mentioned: Medusas with bastion breacher shells.

Damn You took mine.

best AT weapon.

Zoanthrope Warp Lance.

Range 24"(IIRC)

Str10

AP1

Lance

But mine has 3 small blasts at 48", S10, 2D6 Armour Pen AND AP1.

Reply by: kronk - click to view full reply 

18698

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 19:40:43

Post by: kronk

SaintHazard wrote:

kronk wrote:For my Black Templar, I've found that a 5 man terminator squad with 2 assault cannons and the tank hunters veteran ability does pretty quick work. Toss in a couple of chainfists, and they're even better.

Ouch.

8 S6 rending shots.

That's a beast.

You could take down Land Raiders with that sucker.

S7, technically. They have tank hunter!

Reply by: SaintHazard - click to view full reply 

29680

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 19:50:05

Post by: SaintHazard

Oh, Veteran Skills, will we ever see you again?

(sadly, no)

Reply by: orchewer - click to view full reply 

823

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:02:47

Post by: orchewer

Best anti-tank?
Broadsides, for reasons already stated in this thread.

Cheapest anti-tank?
Suicide Crisis Suit: Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, Target Array (53 points)

Most hilarious anti-tank?
20 Kroot + 12 Kroot Hounds outflanking and assaulting a Leman Russ hunkered down in cover.


Hands down it's 20 Kroot + 12 Kroot Hounds outflanking and assaulting a Leman Russ hunkered down in cover.

Reply by: SaintHazard - click to view full reply 

29680

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:09:36

Post by: SaintHazard

orchewer wrote:Most hilarious anti-tank?
20 Kroot + 12 Kroot Hounds outflanking and assaulting a Leman Russ hunkered down in cover.


Hands down it's 20 Kroot + 12 Kroot Hounds outflanking and assaulting a Leman Russ hunkered down in cover.

Disagree.

Most hilarious: a single Tyranid spore mine drifting randomly into the rear armor of a Leman Russ.

Reply by: Slarg232 - click to view full reply 

26674

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:15:07

Post by: Slarg232

Jaon wrote:These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

I once saw a monolith get shot by a long Guardsmen with a Meltagun at 12" and get blown up.

The dude basically shot it over his shoulder as he was running away..

Reply by: Baxx - click to view full reply 

5209

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:33:02

Post by: Baxx

Jaon wrote:These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

I had 18 Fire Dragons firing at a Monolith once, during an apocalypse game. They wasted 18 melta shots without destructive result. Only three survived to fire again next round, still without the wanted result. Eventually they assaulted the monolith and destroyed it with three meltabombs.

What's my point? Fire Dragons CAN kill Monoliths...

Reply by: SaintHazard - click to view full reply 

29680

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:39:40

Post by: SaintHazard

Baxx wrote:

Jaon wrote:These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

I had 18 Fire Dragons firing at a Monolith once, during an apocalypse game. They wasted 18 melta shots without destructive result. Only three survived to fire again next round, still without the wanted result. Eventually they assaulted the monolith and destroyed it with three meltabombs.

What's my point? Fire Dragons CAN kill Monoliths...

...what exactly was the status of the Monolith when this happened? Did it have all of its weapons? Was it immobilized?

I ask because the BEST result you can get with a Meltabomb (a S8 weapon) is an Immobilized result, and that's if you roll sixes to glance, and then sixes again on the damage table.

So you'd have to roll six sixes, getting three Immobilized results (or a few fives, but doesn't the power matrix keep Weapon Destroyed from turning into Immobilized or Wrecked?) in order to even get close to wrecking it.

Reply by: Baxx - click to view full reply 

5209

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:45:11

Post by: Baxx

Melta weapons give a +1 bonus on the vehicle damage chart, so the best result would be 5 (wrecked).

Reply by: SaintHazard - click to view full reply 

29680

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:46:09

Post by: SaintHazard

Baxx wrote:Melta weapons give a +1 bonus on the vehicle damage chart, so the best result would be 5 (wrecked).

No, AP1 weapons give a +1 bonus. Melta weapons roll 2d6 for armor pen at close range, except against Monoliths.

Meltabombs are not AP1.

Reply by: Baxx - click to view full reply 

5209

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:54:02

Post by: Baxx

Ahh yes of course... must have been immobilized then.

Reply by: SaintHazard - click to view full reply 

29680

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 20:59:44

Post by: SaintHazard

In which case, any Immobilized results would become Weapon Destroyed, and enough of those would wreck it.

Three seems like a very low number of meltabomb hits to wreck it in one turn, though.

Reply by: Baxx - click to view full reply 

5209

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 21:02:34

Post by: Baxx

Hehe no, it was after 2 turns of shooting. The first turn 18 Fire Dragons fired, the next turn only the few survivors, then assaulted and finally destroyed it. Too bad he had 3 monoliths that game.

Reply by: tgf - click to view full reply 

33774

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 21:15:06

Post by: tgf

Slarg232 wrote:

Jaon wrote:These are all nasty and 100% lethal, but Broadsides are the clear winner because none of the other ones can kill monoliths!

I once saw a monolith get shot by a long Guardsmen with a Meltagun at 12" and get blown up.

The dude basically shot it over his shoulder as he was running away..

Events like those should cause auto rally even if below half.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 21:36:23

Post by: nosferatu1001

SaintHazard wrote:In which case, any Immobilized results would become Weapon Destroyed, and enough of those would wreck it.

Three seems like a very low number of meltabomb hits to wreck it in one turn, though.

You cannot weapon destroy a monolith to death; the power matrix can never be destroyed, AND the other weapon never gets destroyed, just loses shots.

The only way a S8 weapon can kill a monolith is if it is AP1

Reply by: Acardia - click to view full reply 

23793

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 21:40:13

Post by: Acardia

nosferatu1001 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:In which case, any Immobilized results would become Weapon Destroyed, and enough of those would wreck it.

Three seems like a very low number of meltabomb hits to wreck it in one turn, though.

You cannot weapon destroy a monolith to death; the power matrix can never be destroyed, AND the other weapon never gets destroyed, just loses shots.

The only way a S8 weapon can kill a monolith is if it is AP1

And I believe EMP and Haywire are the only grenades that will kill it.

Reply by: SaintHazard - click to view full reply 

29680

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 21:40:51

Post by: SaintHazard

nosferatu1001 wrote:You cannot weapon destroy a monolith to death; the power matrix can never be destroyed, AND the other weapon never gets destroyed, just loses shots.

The only way a S8 weapon can kill a monolith is if it is AP1

That's what I thought, but I wasn't certain. Been reading the Monolith entry in my codex trying to figure this out.

So how did you manage to destroy this Monolith, then, Baxx?

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

20867

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 21:46:10

Post by: Just Dave

By using some BROADSIDE allies?

Reply by: lowmanjason - click to view full reply 

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Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 22:02:33

Post by: lowmanjason

the nightbringer kills tanks dead

Reply by: micahaphone - click to view full reply 

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Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 22:09:25

Post by: micahaphone

lowmanjason wrote:the nightbringer kills tanks dead

I do believe that the Nightbringer Kills EVERYTHING. Just sayin'. 360 points of unstoppability. And yes, I did make up that word.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 22:25:16

Post by: Just Dave

micahaphone wrote:

lowmanjason wrote:the nightbringer kills tanks dead

I do believe that the Nightbringer Kills EVERYTHING. Just sayin'. 360 points of unstoppability. And yes, I did make up that word.

OK, some great insight there guys. As incredibly powerful as the Night-bringer is, he's VERY slow and VERY short-ranged. oh and VERY expensive. you're going to have to go to a lot of effort to actually catch any cats with him let alone have him make his points back!
Sorry, but for the best anti-tank unit in the game, he doesn't quite cut-it IMHO...

Reply by: SaintHazard - click to view full reply 

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Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 22:39:55

Post by: SaintHazard

Nightbringer gets bonus points for looking unbelievably cool while doing it.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 22:42:23

Post by: Melissia

The Broadsides win outright.

willydstyle wrote:I base my anti-tank prowess more on being able to kill rhinos consistently than monoliths

Going by this definition, it would be a unit of three hydras.

Reply by: gendoikari87 - click to view full reply 

17213

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/14 23:00:11

Post by: gendoikari87

yeah, Hydras do have a tendency to kill av 11 dead.

HOWEVER, Here is an idea some of my guard friends have been throwing around.

Punisher, Pask, Plasma sponsons, with a lascannon

Reply by: Noisy_Marine - click to view full reply 

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Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/15 03:36:53

Post by: Noisy_Marine

Just Dave wrote:There were rumours - and emphasis on rumours - of a Dark Eldar weapon that'd be melta AND lance...

That still wouldn't kill a monolith ...


Anyways, how about 3 obliterators?

Reply by: gendoikari87 - click to view full reply 

17213

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/15 04:06:04

Post by: gendoikari87

What about Melta Storm troopers. With a re roll to scatter that means they are more likely to land in the intended area. and for 100 points for the squad, not a bad deal.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

Best single anti tank unit in the game? @ 2010/09/15 05:21:23

Post by: Melissia

Yeah, but they're extremely expensive and you only have two meltaguns.

Not bad as a throwaway unit in a high-level game (though not good either), but it doesn't even qualify for testing to see if it's the best anti-tank unit in the game.