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Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 17:21:58


Post by: WarOne


Just wanted to get straight pretty simple question(s) regarding using the power matrix for teleporting Necron units on the field as described on page 21 of the Necron codex under the second option.

1. Can the Monolith use the Power Matrix for this ability in the same turn it Deep Strikes?

2. Can someone describe the conditions for transporting Necrons through the Monolith being able to assault that turn.

3. Anything else that needs to be known for the Monolith regarding the Power Matrix not already covered by the Necron FAQ.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 17:24:07


Post by: Gwar!


WarOne wrote:Just wanted to get straight pretty simple question(s) regarding using the power matrix for teleporting Necron units on the field as described on page 21 of the Necron codex under the second option.

1. Can the Monolith use the Power Matrix for this ability in the same turn it Deep Strikes?

2. Can someone describe the conditions for transporting Necrons through the Monolith being able to assault that turn.

3. Anything else that needs to be known for the Monolith regarding the Power Matrix not already covered by the Necron FAQ.
1) Yes.

2) RaW, they can assault out of the lith, even if they moved, the Lith Moved or the Lith Deep Striked. The only time they wont be able to assault is if they then run or have turbo-boosted that turn. The FAQ contradicts itself and the RaW and is generally useless here, so stick to playing by the rules. Unless you have the codex that doesn't say "Stationary", in which case you are SOL and cannot assault if it moved or Deep Striked. What you can do in this case is move the Unit, Teleport and then move the lith and be able to assault.

3) Not really. It cannot be used to fire the Particle Whip when it Deep Strikes is the main one.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 17:41:43


Post by: Maelstrom808


The only thing the FAQ (or erratta if you prefer) contradicts in this particular case is the outdated version of the codex, and it does so because the codex is outdated and does not have the correct rules. If you have the up to date version of the codex it matches just fine in regards to the monolith moving.

From the other thread that brought this on

On the teleporting through the monolith, it's really not too confusing if you take the time to read through all the relevent rules/FAQs (that means buy a codex slacker ). The codex first states that models teleporting through a monolith emerge from the portal as if they were disembarking from a transport (it says nothing about a stationary transport unless it's in the older printing. There is a first and second printing of the 3rd ed Necron Codex which have some glaring differences in rules.). If you look at the rules for disembarking from a transport, it tells you that if the transport moved before the unit disembarked, then the unit disembarking may not move any further. So if the monolith moved before you sucked your guys through, you can't move them any further. Later on in the necron codex it says that units phasing out to teleport through the portal may not have moved before doing so...pretty straight forward If they moved, they can't teleport at all. The FAQ backs all of this up, except it ammends the last bit in the codex by allowing you to suck a unit through the portal even if it moved, but it can not move any further, even if the monolith itself remained stationary. So to sum it up - only if both units do not move before teleporting can you move as normal afterwards, but you are always allowed to teleport them regardless of movement prior.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:11:35


Post by: phillosmaster


so a deepstriking monolith can port units through them, but counts as moving at cruising speed.

Therefore the unit that ported through the lith can not move furthur. Though they can still deploys 2" and can still assault normally. Therefore on the turn a monolith deepstrikes it can pull units through it and those units have an effective 8" assault threat range from the monolith.

Did I get all that right?


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:18:56


Post by: Maelstrom808


phillosmaster wrote:so a deepstriking monolith can port units through them, but counts as moving at cruising speed.

Therefore the unit that ported through the lith can not move furthur. Though they can still deploys 2" and can still assault normally. Therefore on the turn a monolith deepstrikes it can pull units through it and those units have an effective 8" assault threat range from the monolith.

Did I get all that right?


Yes except for the assaulting bit...and I'm not really sure on that to be honest. Is an assault move still "moving"? If so then you can't assault either by my read of the rules. But I can see it the other way where it's a different action altogether...so I dunno.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:19:22


Post by: WarOne


Sounds about right based on Gwar!'s ruling.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:23:11


Post by: phillosmaster


If that's true it's still pretty frightening especially since deepstriking monoliths don't need to worry about being destroyed by mishaps (but that's another YMDC thread...). So necron players can be aggressive with their placements, and pull off that deepstrike assault.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:31:57


Post by: nosferatu1001


If you deepstrike you have moved. IF you disembark as if from a transport vehicle that has moved you may not assault (unless open topped or Assault Vehicle) therefore if you deepstrike you cannot assault.

Unless it states th monolith always counts as a stationary vehicle, in which case you can assault


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:34:05


Post by: kirsanth


nosferatu1001 wrote:Unless it states th monolith always counts as a stationary vehicle, in which case you can assault
It does--at least for the portal. . . .


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:35:37


Post by: Maelstrom808


nosferatu1001 wrote:If you deepstrike you have moved. IF you disembark as if from a transport vehicle that has moved you may not assault (unless open topped or Assault Vehicle) therefore if you deepstrike you cannot assault.

Unless it states th monolith always counts as a stationary vehicle, in which case you can assault


Which is apparently what the first printing of the Necron codex says. The second printing leaves out the stationary and completely changes the nature of the rule.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:36:58


Post by: nosferatu1001


In whcih case you must use the current rule, or at least most tournaments would require this. I doubt you'd make many friends otherwise...


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:37:02


Post by: Gwar!


Maelstrom808 wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:If you deepstrike you have moved. IF you disembark as if from a transport vehicle that has moved you may not assault (unless open topped or Assault Vehicle) therefore if you deepstrike you cannot assault.

Unless it states th monolith always counts as a stationary vehicle, in which case you can assault


Which is apparently what the first printing of the Necron codex says. The second printing leaves out the stationary and completely changes the nature of the rule.
And why did they not include it in the errata? GW have already gotten my money for my copy of the codex, why should I have to buy it again? It's not an edition change or a new codex.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:38:39


Post by: kirsanth


Maelstrom808 wrote:Which is apparently what the first printing of the Necron codex says. The second printing leaves out the stationary and completely changes the nature of the rule.
There I go again.



Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:46:25


Post by: Maelstrom808


Gwar! wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:If you deepstrike you have moved. IF you disembark as if from a transport vehicle that has moved you may not assault (unless open topped or Assault Vehicle) therefore if you deepstrike you cannot assault.

Unless it states th monolith always counts as a stationary vehicle, in which case you can assault


Which is apparently what the first printing of the Necron codex says. The second printing leaves out the stationary and completely changes the nature of the rule.
And why did they not include it in the errata? GW have already gotten my money for my copy of the codex, why should I have to buy it again? It's not an edition change or a new codex.


You are right, they should have included it in the errata. There's a LOT of things GW should have done but didn't. Just don't expect the excuse to fly at a tournament with anyone who knows the difference between the two printings. As Nos said, you play by the most up to date rules. It sucks that you (and many others, myself included) had out of date rules, but you can't play by two different versions of the rules.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 18:58:11


Post by: nosferatu1001


Because the tournament rules pack would normally say so. GTs for example specify the ISBN you must use.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 19:17:48


Post by: phillosmaster


Well alright then. That explains why I haven't seen that tactic used yet in a battle.

So then if played by the most recent rules, a unit can only deploy 2" from a deepstriking monolith and may not assault that turn.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 19:23:50


Post by: nosferatu1001


Yes - whch also means that large units will struggle to all fit within 2" of the portal.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 19:31:41


Post by: Kevin949


phillosmaster wrote:If that's true it's still pretty frightening especially since deepstriking monoliths don't need to worry about being destroyed by mishaps (but that's another YMDC thread...). So necron players can be aggressive with their placements, and pull off that deepstrike assault.


It absolutely can still be destroyed by mishaps, just not if it mishaps onto enemy models.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/08/31 19:37:37


Post by: phillosmaster


Yes, thanks for qualifying that. Someone might have jumped to some conclusions reading that. I meant near enemies because that's what you would want to do here. You would want to try and deepstrike on your enemy's location. Though it all seems to have evaporated into a non-issue.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/12 08:37:33


Post by: youbedead


Gwar! wrote:
3) Not really. It cannot be used to fire the Particle Whip when it Deep Strikes is the main one.


wait what, where are you getting this from


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/12 09:31:12


Post by: Kurgash


youbedead wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
3) Not really. It cannot be used to fire the Particle Whip when it Deep Strikes is the main one.


wait what, where are you getting this from


A debate between players who agree on two ideas:

1. The monolith deepstrikes, thus moving at cruising speed and even though the power matrix says it can be used despite moving there is word play I won't be bothered with to break down at 430 in the am *god why am i awake...* but suffice to say, moved at cruising, can't use weapons.

2. Other side believes you can use the whip even if deepstriking as the power says so despite moving.

Myself, I see where both sides are coming from. It's just a game of 'I read it like this so I'm right' and the other side going 'Oh yeah!? Well I read it like this!' so really neither side is right to the fullest extent no matter how hard they try to break it down.

The monolith ruleset is just an aged fossil from earlier times where ordnance couldn't be fired if you moved so now with 5th and the changes it hasn't aged too well for good accommodation.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/12 12:02:11


Post by: nosferatu1001


The "cannot fire" side is correct because there is specific restriction from firing, and no specific permission TO fire.

Permssive ruleset and all that.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/12 18:07:51


Post by: RobPro


I believe they removed "stationary" was because people were trying to do double-moves with their unit.

i.e. I move my Warriors within 18 of the Monolith, they teleport through and count as exiting a stationary vehicle so they can do their movement again.

I tend to follow the rules for normal transports when I consider whether Necrons can move/assault after they port through the Monolith.

Did the Warriors or the Monolith move prior to the teleport? If the answer is yes, then I do not assault with them or move them after the teleport.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/12 18:38:11


Post by: nosferatu1001


It also stops you gaining 18" to assault first turn.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 00:59:19


Post by: RobPro


nosferatu1001 wrote:It also stops you gaining 18" to assault first turn.


With Destroyers, you could potentially have had a 56" assault.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 01:08:49


Post by: Maelstrom808


Eh, your math is a bit off. Max is 46 1/4" inch assault.

18" teleport to the monolith + 6" width of the monolith itself + 2" deployment from the portal + 2 1/4 " base width + 12" move + 6" assault


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 03:26:59


Post by: RobPro


12 inch move to the Monolith, if you're treating it as stationary when you exit so you get your full move again.

12 + 18 + 6 + 2.5 + 12 + 6 = 56.5 inch assault

Why you'd assault with Destroyers, I'll never know, but it would be hilarious.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 04:33:31


Post by: Maelstrom808


No, you are moving twice with the destroyers, and you are moving before you teleport, which means you can't move after.

...and you wouldn't want to do it with destroyers....wraiths however work beautifully if you can manage to get everything lined up.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 05:46:44


Post by: youbedead


Kurgash wrote:
youbedead wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
3) Not really. It cannot be used to fire the Particle Whip when it Deep Strikes is the main one.


wait what, where are you getting this from


A debate between players who agree on two ideas:

1. The monolith deepstrikes, thus moving at cruising speed and even though the power matrix says it can be used despite moving there is word play I won't be bothered with to break down at 430 in the am *god why am i awake...* but suffice to say, moved at cruising, can't use weapons.

2. Other side believes you can use the whip even if deepstriking as the power says so despite moving.

Myself, I see where both sides are coming from. It's just a game of 'I read it like this so I'm right' and the other side going 'Oh yeah!? Well I read it like this!' so really neither side is right to the fullest extent no matter how hard they try to break it down.

The monolith ruleset is just an aged fossil from earlier times where ordnance couldn't be fired if you moved so now with 5th and the changes it hasn't aged too well for good accommodation.


Doesn't codex trump rulebook so even if the the rulebook said you can niot fire the codex specifically states it can fire if it moved.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 06:35:55


Post by: ChrisCP


The codex does not say you can fire if it DS, it says you can use the power matrix despite DS, one of the actions of the matrix is to shoot the other is to tele, guess which one breaks a rule and thus you're not allowed to use it.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 08:53:55


Post by: nosferatu1001


youbedead - doesnt work like that. More specific beats more general rule.

General rule: may use the matrix even if you have moved
SPecific rule: you may not fire any weapons if you have moved cruising speed.

Cruising speed is a specific set of move values, thus is more specific and so would need a more specifically wored rule to beat it. Unlikely given the codex was written 2 editions prior to cruising speed...


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 17:31:59


Post by: Thanatos_elNyx


There are arguments for both sides that can't be clearly resolved until we either get a new codex or get another FAQ which is unlikely.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 17:55:16


Post by: nosferatu1001


No, there really arent

One side ignores how the rules work, in favour of "but but, it says MOVES, and cruising speed is moving, yes?" and the other doesnt ignore the rules.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 18:10:12


Post by: Thanatos_elNyx


Yes, yes...

General BRB rule: you may not fire any weapons if you have moved cruising speed.
Specific Monolith rule: may use the matrix even if you have moved.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 18:26:13


Post by: kirsanth


Which is more specific:

1) "Move that vehicle"
or
2) "Move that vehicle so that it counts as having moved cruising speed"

?


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 18:55:22


Post by: nosferatu1001


Thanatos_elNyx wrote:Yes, yes...

General BRB rule: you may not fire any weapons if you have moved cruising speed.
Specific Monolith rule: may use the matrix even if you have moved.


General BRB rule: you may fire if you move
Monolith rule: you may fire if you move
Specific BRB rule: you may not fire if you move cruising speed

Sorry, what's specific again? Something applying to all moves is certainly NOT more specific than simply something applying to Cruising speed. UNless you have a different definition of specific, like some posters different definitions of "special"


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 18:55:56


Post by: Gwar!


Agreed, you cannot Deep Strike and fire with the Monolith.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 22:38:51


Post by: RobPro


Maelstrom808 wrote:No, you are moving twice with the destroyers, and you are moving before you teleport, which means you can't move after.

...and you wouldn't want to do it with destroyers....wraiths however work beautifully if you can manage to get everything lined up.


Ah, but that is the issue I was referring to. If the Monolith is always considered "stationary," then units exiting it could potentially get their movement again. I believe that is why "stationary" was removed from how units exit the Monolith, because people were trying to do that.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/13 23:07:09


Post by: nosferatu1001


You wouldnt get your movement again, as you have still moved that turn. It jsut stops you assaulting from the portal.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/14 18:04:54


Post by: Kevin949


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Thanatos_elNyx wrote:Yes, yes...

General BRB rule: you may not fire any weapons if you have moved cruising speed.
Specific Monolith rule: may use the matrix even if you have moved.


General BRB rule: you may fire if you move
Monolith rule: you may fire if you move
Specific BRB rule: you may not fire if you move cruising speed

Sorry, what's specific again? Something applying to all moves is certainly NOT more specific than simply something applying to Cruising speed. UNless you have a different definition of specific, like some posters different definitions of "special"


Actually, the rule for the monolith is specific to the monolith and says the power matrix may be used even if it moved, not simply "can fire if moved". Plus your ordering is off. The rules from the BRB should be in place prior to any rule listed in a codex. No, I'm not specifically saying that codex trumps BRB, simply that the order in which the rules should be calculated should start at a higher level and work it's way down to a granular level. It's typical hierarchy mechanics.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/14 18:58:06


Post by: nosferatu1001


Except that is incorrect. The more specific rule is applied later on. Otherwise, by your reckoning, WBB could be made against SA because SA is a BRB rule. (hint: WBB rolls CANNOT BE MADE against SA)


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/14 19:45:28


Post by: Maelstrom808


RobPro wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:No, you are moving twice with the destroyers, and you are moving before you teleport, which means you can't move after.

...and you wouldn't want to do it with destroyers....wraiths however work beautifully if you can manage to get everything lined up.


Ah, but that is the issue I was referring to. If the Monolith is always considered "stationary," then units exiting it could potentially get their movement again. I believe that is why "stationary" was removed from how units exit the Monolith, because people were trying to do that.


Gotcha, didn't catch that you were refering to the old "stationary" wording. Like I said though, anyway you look at it, it still wouldn't work because you wouldn't be able to move twice in the same turn. Although you are probably right in that someone somewhere would try to justify it.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/14 19:58:58


Post by: Kevin949


nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that is incorrect. The more specific rule is applied later on. Otherwise, by your reckoning, WBB could be made against SA because SA is a BRB rule. (hint: WBB rolls CANNOT BE MADE against SA)


I know they can't, and WBB only allows you to come back from WOUNDS and sweeping advance doesn't cause wounds.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/14 20:00:13


Post by: nosferatu1001


Wrong. WBB states anytime you would be removed as a casualty, actually. Which is why it works vs Lukas stupid Rule.

Doesnt alter the fact theat the codex is not necessarily the more specific rule, as proven here and in SA vs WBB.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/14 20:35:09


Post by: Kevin949


nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong. WBB states anytime you would be removed as a casualty, actually. Which is why it works vs Lukas stupid Rule.

Doesnt alter the fact theat the codex is not necessarily the more specific rule, as proven here and in SA vs WBB.


Could argue the semantics that SA states they're removed from play, not removed as casualties. Plus the fact that, at least in the 4th ed book (which is the only soft copy I have available at the moment) it actually states WBB as not working, which makes it more specific than if it wasn't stated. But is only an example, of course.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/14 20:44:19


Post by: nosferatu1001


Sigh. It actually states in the 4th ed book that WBB is an example of a special rule that doesnt work.

It doesnt alter that, LIKE SA the prohibition on firing while moving at cruising speed is MORE SPECIFIC than the codex rule stating you can fire while moving.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/15 00:23:45


Post by: Kevin949


nosferatu1001 wrote:Sigh. It actually states in the 4th ed book that WBB is an example of a special rule that doesnt work.

It doesnt alter that, LIKE SA the prohibition on firing while moving at cruising speed is MORE SPECIFIC than the codex rule stating you can fire while moving.


Wait, I like how you sighed and then restated exactly what I said but using different words.

But, like I said back before in one of the many threads on this topic (or those that degenerated to this), play how you want. You believe it is one way, I believe it is another. I've had no problems with opponents allowing it to be played as such either. *Shrug*


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/15 22:27:49


Post by: Chinchilla


Each time somebody asks something about the crons, my heart cries for new codex... I have a dream... Necron warriors fielded not just because foc says you have to


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:31:36


Post by: snakel


Well after reading all the replies here i still dont get the argument over specific vs general

Now a rule in the rule book states you cant fire any wepons if you move and crusing speed unless your codex states otherwise i.e special rules

Ok that makes perfect sence i.e the LR can fire 1 weapon even if it moves at crusing speed since its special rule states that it can in the codex .

First the SM codex was written for 5th ed so it makes the point of stating crusing speed .

Now heres the rub , the definition of specific is where i feel the problem accurs .

To me the BRB rule is general ,meaning it covers all armies and all vehicles, the fact the wording is specific is irreilivant as it only applies to general rules and is superceded by rules in a codex (SM to be specific here)

Now thw Necron codex was written before crusing speed exsited so it never mentioned that exact speed, in the Lith power matrix rule (since it did not exsit )

Now and again the power matix rule is unique to the lith and so is specific to the lith i.e there is nothing in anyother codex like the power matix on the lith.

So my point is ,the BRB rule is a general rule used if there is nothing specfic to any vehicle in your codex ,but the necron power matix is specific it only omits the Crusing speed bit since it was not there when it was written

the rule is written like this

The power matirx cannot be disabled by a "weapon destoyed" result and may be used even if the Monolith moves ,or is shaken or stunned.

The fact it only says moves is what people are saying is general but its only that word the rest of the rule is specific to the lith .

So (and i have no doubts people will say i am wrong ) by the rules of the english language the rule for the power matix is specific to the lith making it supeceed the general rule in the BRB so it can fire the whip using the matix when it deepstrikes

You can not use the argument that one word is general and the other is specific, it is the whole sentance that must be used to gain the right to say general or specific and it is plain in the english language that the ltih rule is a specific rule not a general one


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:38:24


Post by: don_mondo


snakel wrote:

Now thw Necron codex was written before crusing speed exsited so it never mentioned that exact speed, in the Lith power matrix rule (since it did not exsit )



Yep. Sure was. So what? The reason behind it was so that the Monolith could move and fire Ordnance (no one else could back then). Soooooo, what you're saying is that it's an outdated rule that no longer has any function under the current ruleset, right? That would mean it falls under this statement from the GW Main Rules FAQ:

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other
rules) that seem to have no effect in the new
edition (like the Thornback biomorph, which
makes the model count as double the number of
models for the purposes of outnumbering the
enemy in combat resolution), are you going to
publish an errata to change them to something
else that does work?
A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no
effect, like in the case of the example above, it
simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just
leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather
than change its effects through an errata.

So, basically, the rule does nothing. There ya go. Debate done and over with.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:40:40


Post by: Chinchilla


I must say that I interpreted the power matrix rule the same and have always played that way... It says that you can use power matrix even if moved, shaken or stuned... And then it ays you can use it in 2 ways, as shooting or teleporting... So imo it specifically says it can use power matrix and since he can use it as whip, I don't see problem to using it after deep strike or moving at cruising speed...

Not saying it's like that, just how I played it


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:42:25


Post by: kirsanth


Which is more specific:

1) "Move that monolith"
or
2) "Move that monolith so that it counts as having moved cruising speed"

?

Due to previous editions a friend I play against regularly (who fields Necrons) assumed it could fire as well.
Then we read the rules again after one of these threads.

He changed his mind.

I get the confusion and would not really hold it against a Necron player who said otherwise, though.
Except maybe DashofPepper--but, then I doubt it would come up.



Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:49:53


Post by: snakel


don_mondo wrote:
snakel wrote:

Now thw Necron codex was written before crusing speed exsited so it never mentioned that exact speed, in the Lith power matrix rule (since it did not exsit )



Yep. Sure was. So what? The reason behind it was so that the Monolith could move and fire Ordnance (no one else could back then). Soooooo, what you're saying is that it's an outdated rule that no longer has any function under the current ruleset, right? That would mean it falls under this statement from the GW Main Rules FAQ:

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other
rules) that seem to have no effect in the new
edition (like the Thornback biomorph, which
makes the model count as double the number of
models for the purposes of outnumbering the
enemy in combat resolution), are you going to
publish an errata to change them to something
else that does work?
A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no
effect, like in the case of the example above, it
simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just
leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather
than change its effects through an errata.

So, basically, the rule does nothing. There ya go. Debate done and over with.




nice but you can moveand shoot in the 5th ed and the rule is a general rule since it can be supceded by the codex the rule in the Necron codex is Specific and therefore you are wrong

Again the english Language is the argument here , your argument would say that the reason the power matrix was written was for an old rule that no longer exsits so you cant use it that is wrong

Show me where it specificaly states that it is for that old rule , the rule pertanes to moving and shooting which does still exsit


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:50:17


Post by: Kevin949


don_mondo wrote:
snakel wrote:

Now thw Necron codex was written before crusing speed exsited so it never mentioned that exact speed, in the Lith power matrix rule (since it did not exsit )


Yep. Sure was. So what? The reason behind it was so that the Monolith could move and fire Ordnance (no one else could back then). Soooooo, what you're saying is that it's an outdated rule that no longer has any function under the current ruleset, right? That would mean it falls under this statement from the GW Main Rules FAQ:

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other
rules) that seem to have no effect in the new
edition (like the Thornback biomorph, which
makes the model count as double the number of
models for the purposes of outnumbering the
enemy in combat resolution), are you going to
publish an errata to change them to something
else that does work?
A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no
effect, like in the case of the example above, it
simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just
leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather
than change its effects through an errata.

So, basically, the rule does nothing. There ya go. Debate done and over with.


But the rule does not "clearly do nothing" as moving is moving no matter how you want to spin it. If someone walked 5 feet and another person ran 10 feet, they both still moved. So, no, the debate is not over because "moving" has not been removed from the game like outnumbering was.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:53:19


Post by: snakel


kirsanth wrote:Which is more specific:

1) "Move that monolith"
or
2) "Move that monolith so that it counts as having moved cruising speed"

?

Due to previous editions a friend I play against regularly (who fields Necrons) assumed it could fire as well.
Then we read the rules again after one of these threads.

He changed his mind.

I get the confusion and would not really hold it against a Necron player who said otherwise, though.
Except maybe DashofPepper--but, then I doubt it would come up.



you are taking a few words and forgetting the whole sentance the whole sentance is specific the BRB rule is general

The BRB is general as it is for every vehicle not just one the lith rule is specific as it is for one vehicle not all


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:56:54


Post by: don_mondo


Kevin949 wrote:
don_mondo wrote:
snakel wrote:

Now thw Necron codex was written before crusing speed exsited so it never mentioned that exact speed, in the Lith power matrix rule (since it did not exsit )


Yep. Sure was. So what? The reason behind it was so that the Monolith could move and fire Ordnance (no one else could back then). Soooooo, what you're saying is that it's an outdated rule that no longer has any function under the current ruleset, right? That would mean it falls under this statement from the GW Main Rules FAQ:

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other
rules) that seem to have no effect in the new
edition (like the Thornback biomorph, which
makes the model count as double the number of
models for the purposes of outnumbering the
enemy in combat resolution), are you going to
publish an errata to change them to something
else that does work?
A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no
effect, like in the case of the example above, it
simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just
leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather
than change its effects through an errata.

So, basically, the rule does nothing. There ya go. Debate done and over with.


But the rule does not "clearly do nothing" as moving is moving no matter how you want to spin it. If someone walked 5 feet and another person ran 10 feet, they both still moved. So, no, the debate is not over because "moving" has not been removed from the game like outnumbering was.


Yes, it does indeed do nothing. All vehicles can move and fire Ordnance now. So the reason for the rule no longer exists. Therefore, it's a dead rule. My Leman Russ has a rule that says it can move and fire Ordnance. What it does not have is a rule saying that it can move at Cruising speed and fire it's Ordnance. Your Monolith has a rule saying it can move and fire Ordnance, but it also does not a have a rule saying it can do so at Cruising speed. Ergo, it cannot. Sorry, but those are the rules.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:58:01


Post by: kirsanth


snakel wrote:you are taking a few words and forgetting the whole sentance the whole sentance is specific the BRB rule is general

The BRB is general as it is for every vehicle not just one the lith rule is specific as it is for one vehicle not all
You are taking a few sentences and forgetting the words that make them up.

All vehicle rules are more general than Monolith rules. Check.
Movement rules for vehicles are more general than movement rules for monoliths. Check.
Rules for moving are more general than moving at specific speeds. Check.
Movement rules for monoliths are more general than movement rules for monoliths at specific speeds. This is a probelm?


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:58:28


Post by: Chinchilla


Problem is that if you observe this with pure logic, it is impossible to say which rule is more specific:
1. Monolith can move and use power matrix
2. Vehicle can't move at cruising speed and fire weapon

First sentence is more specific when addressing vehicle as monolith....
Second one is more specific when addressing speed....

So which one is more specific? Neither imo... And here lies the problem


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 20:59:34


Post by: snakel


Kevin949 wrote:
don_mondo wrote:
snakel wrote:

Now thw Necron codex was written before crusing speed exsited so it never mentioned that exact speed, in the Lith power matrix rule (since it did not exsit )


Yep. Sure was. So what? The reason behind it was so that the Monolith could move and fire Ordnance (no one else could back then). Soooooo, what you're saying is that it's an outdated rule that no longer has any function under the current ruleset, right? That would mean it falls under this statement from the GW Main Rules FAQ:

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other
rules) that seem to have no effect in the new
edition (like the Thornback biomorph, which
makes the model count as double the number of
models for the purposes of outnumbering the
enemy in combat resolution), are you going to
publish an errata to change them to something
else that does work?
A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no
effect, like in the case of the example above, it
simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just
leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather
than change its effects through an errata.

So, basically, the rule does nothing. There ya go. Debate done and over with.


But the rule does not "clearly do nothing" as moving is moving no matter how you want to spin it. If someone walked 5 feet and another person ran 10 feet, they both still moved. So, no, the debate is not over because "moving" has not been removed from the game like outnumbering was.


lol we have a different idea on the english language

you think 1 word in a sentance makes a whole sentance specific i believe that the whole sentance is what makes the rule specific




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chinchilla wrote:Problem is that if you observe this with pure logic, it is impossible to say which rule is more specific:
1. Monolith can move and use power matrix
2. Vehicle can't move at cruising speed and fire weapon

First sentence is more specific when addressing vehicle as monolith....
Second one is more specific when addressing speed....

So which one is more specific? Neither imo... And here lies the problem



Well said that man the exaxt point i was trying to make


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:05:53


Post by: Kevin949


don_mondo wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
don_mondo wrote:
snakel wrote:

Now thw Necron codex was written before crusing speed exsited so it never mentioned that exact speed, in the Lith power matrix rule (since it did not exsit )


Yep. Sure was. So what? The reason behind it was so that the Monolith could move and fire Ordnance (no one else could back then). Soooooo, what you're saying is that it's an outdated rule that no longer has any function under the current ruleset, right? That would mean it falls under this statement from the GW Main Rules FAQ:

Q. If my Codex includes some options (or other
rules) that seem to have no effect in the new
edition (like the Thornback biomorph, which
makes the model count as double the number of
models for the purposes of outnumbering the
enemy in combat resolution), are you going to
publish an errata to change them to something
else that does work?
A. No, if an option (or a rule) clearly has no
effect, like in the case of the example above, it
simply does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just
leave it until the next edition of the Codex rather
than change its effects through an errata.

So, basically, the rule does nothing. There ya go. Debate done and over with.


But the rule does not "clearly do nothing" as moving is moving no matter how you want to spin it. If someone walked 5 feet and another person ran 10 feet, they both still moved. So, no, the debate is not over because "moving" has not been removed from the game like outnumbering was.


Yes, it does indeed do nothing. All vehicles can move and fire Ordnance now. So the reason for the rule no longer exists. Therefore, it's a dead rule. My Leman Russ has a rule that says it can move and fire Ordnance. What it does not have is a rule saying that it can move at Cruising speed and fire it's Ordnance. Your Monolith has a rule saying it can move and fire Ordnance, but it also does not a have a rule saying it can do so at Cruising speed. Ergo, it cannot. Sorry, but those are the rules.


So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:06:40


Post by: Gwar!


Kevin949 wrote:So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.
Good for you.

Necrons is a 3rd edition codex.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:10:16


Post by: Kevin949


Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.
Good for you.

Necrons is a 3rd edition codex.


As was IG then?


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:17:28


Post by: Gwar!


Kevin949 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.
Good for you.

Necrons is a 3rd edition codex.


As was IG then?
IG had two 3rd ed codexes.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:24:55


Post by: Kevin949


Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:So I'm looking at the 4th edition book right now and even then you could move 6" and fire 1 ordnance weapon.
Good for you.

Necrons is a 3rd edition codex.


As was IG then?
IG had two 3rd ed codexes.


Hm, just like crons.
Damn, didn't know they were two editions back. *Ugh*


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:26:12


Post by: Chinchilla


Crons have 3rd edition dex

EDIT: lol, didn't see next page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is so hard to play with an old dex... GW should really think about that things... Ok, 4th edition codex on few armies, but 2 editions running late?! That just makes me mad


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:31:31


Post by: puma713


nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong. WBB states anytime you would be removed as a casualty, actually. Which is why it works vs Lukas stupid Rule.



People use Lukas?


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:34:06


Post by: time wizard


In the Necron Codex, the Monolith has a rule which says it can move and use the power matrix.

One way the power matrix can be used is as a particle whip. The other is to teleport Necron units.

The particle whip is a weapon.

A vehicle (except fast & skimmers) which moves at cruising speed cannot fire any weapons unless a specific codex entry (like space marine power of the machine spirit) allows it.

A monolith that deep strikes counts as moving at cruising speed.

When 5th edition rules came out, errata were issued for each codex.

If the monolith was going to be allowed to deep strike and fire any weapon (the gauss flux arc or the power matrix) the errata issued by GW would have stated as much.

There is no such specific exemption in the Necron errata.

Therefore a Monolith that deep strikes counts as moving at cruising speed and cannot fire any of its weapons.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:37:02


Post by: Chinchilla


Trust me, the lack of rule in GW errata has nothing to do with what they intended
But I agree...


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:37:06


Post by: puma713


snakel wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chinchilla wrote:Problem is that if you observe this with pure logic, it is impossible to say which rule is more specific:
1. Monolith can move and use power matrix
2. Vehicle can't move at cruising speed and fire weapon

First sentence is more specific when addressing vehicle as monolith....
Second one is more specific when addressing speed....

So which one is more specific? Neither imo... And here lies the problem



Well said that man the exaxt point i was trying to make


You can drive in cars.
You can drive in cars, but you cannot drive in red cars.

Which one is more specific?

You can shoot (while moving).
You can shoot (while moving), but cannot shoot at cruising speed.

Which one is more specific?

Edit: To eliminate the guesswork - the second one is more specific, in both cases. I'd imagine that everyone agrees with that. Now, the codex says the monolith may fire its particle whip, even if it moved. That's great. It can move 1" and fire it. It can move 5" and fire it. It can even move 6" and fire it! However, when deep striking, it counts as moving at cruising speed. Now, there is a very specific rule about moving at cruising speed and firing weapons in the BRB. We all know it. The rule in the codex gives the monolith permission to move and fire, not move at cruising speed and fire.

As Gwar! might put it:

How many rules does moving at cruising speed and firing break? 1.

How many rules does moving at cruising speed and not firing break? 0.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:40:00


Post by: Gwar!


You clearly are not an ork.

Everyone knows da red wonz go fasta!

(and it's the 2nd one )


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:46:44


Post by: snakel


time wizard wrote:In the Necron Codex, the Monolith has a rule which says it can move and use the power matrix.

One way the power matrix can be used is as a particle whip. The other is to teleport Necron units.

The particle whip is a weapon.

A vehicle (except fast & skimmers) which moves at cruising speed cannot fire any weapons unless a specific codex entry (like space marine power of the machine spirit) allows it.

A monolith that deep strikes counts as moving at cruising speed.

When 5th edition rules came out, errata were issued for each codex.

If the monolith was going to be allowed to deep strike and fire any weapon (the gauss flux arc or the power matrix) the errata issued by GW would have stated as much.

There is no such specific exemption in the Necron errata.

Therefore a Monolith that deep strikes counts as moving at cruising speed and cannot fire any of its weapons.


But you assume GW get everything right and never miss anything and maybe they thought like me and felt it did not need clarification

In the end there is not right or wrong answer both are valid arguments it all falls down to who you play and what they think, all the people i play ,that have never use Necrons say the same as me so does it really matter?



Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:56:45


Post by: Rephistorch


snakel wrote:

But you assume GW get everything right and never miss anything and maybe they thought like me and felt it did not need clarification

In the end there is not right or wrong answer both are valid arguments it all falls down to who you play and what they think, all the people i play ,that have never use Necrons say the same as me so does it really matter?



If you can't assume that the rules are complete and correct, what can you assume?


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 21:57:44


Post by: time wizard


snakel wrote: But you assume GW get everything right and never miss anything and maybe they thought like me and felt it did not need clarification


I would never presume to know what GW thinks. My point was that the opportunity existed to ammend the rule in a fashion similar to space amrine POTMS. There is currently no rule which specifically allows the monolith to move at cruising speed and fire any weapon.

snakel wrote:In the end there is not right or wrong answer both are valid arguments it all falls down to who you play and what they think, all the people i play ,that have never use Necrons say the same as me so does it really matter?


It matters not to me how you play. For the purposes of a rules forum, there is no specific rule allowing the monolith to move at cruising speed and fire any weapon. I play against a necron player who does not think that a monolith can deep strike and fire any weapon.

You can either play by the existing rules or make up anything you wish. Doesn't change what is printed in the codex or rulebook though.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:00:58


Post by: snakel


time wizard wrote:
snakel wrote: But you assume GW get everything right and never miss anything and maybe they thought like me and felt it did not need clarification


I would never presume to know what GW thinks. My point was that the opportunity existed to ammend the rule in a fashion similar to space amrine POTMS. There is currently no rule which specifically allows the monolith to move at cruising speed and fire any weapon.

snakel wrote:In the end there is not right or wrong answer both are valid arguments it all falls down to who you play and what they think, all the people i play ,that have never use Necrons say the same as me so does it really matter?


It matters not to me how you play. For the purposes of a rules forum, there is no specific rule allowing the monolith to move at cruising speed and fire any weapon. I play against a necron player who does not think that a monolith can deep strike and fire any weapon.

You can either play by the existing rules or make up anything you wish. Doesn't change what is printed in the codex or rulebook though.



nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


by your rule you cant use the power matix at all lol if you deepstrke .

The power matix is not a weapon therfore it cant be subject to weapon rules it is infact a power matirx the particlewhip is just the release of energy stored in the matrix

LOL its not a clear rulling and you cant say i am making up rules i just have a different take on the english language than you


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:10:50


Post by: kirsanth


snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:21:05


Post by: snakel


kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


I come from england where we speak english you come form the USA where you speak a version of english but not the the same as the Queens english.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways prounition ,meaning of certain words and meanings of certain sentances ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both uderstand the rule differently


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:23:48


Post by: BeRzErKeR


snakel wrote:

I come from England where we speak English you come from the USA where you speak a version of English but not the the same as the Queen's English.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways pronunciation, meanings of certain words and meanings of certain sentences ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both understand the rule differently


Yeah. . . I can't see how you can, with a straight face, question kirsanth on his grasp of English.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:24:27


Post by: Rephistorch


snakel wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


I come from england where we speak english you come form the USA where you speak a version of english but not the the same as the Queens english.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways prounition ,meaning of certain words and meanings of certain sentances ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both uderstand the rule differently


You can't hide behind a language defense if you can't prove that a word means something different in the queen's english than it does in american english.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:35:01


Post by: snakel


Rephistorch wrote:
snakel wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


I come from england where we speak english you come form the USA where you speak a version of english but not the the same as the Queens english.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways prounition ,meaning of certain words and meanings of certain sentances ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both uderstand the rule differently


You can't hide behind a language defense if you can't prove that a word means something different in the queen's english than it does in american english.



it specificaly states the lith can move and use its power matirx (genral wording for a specific rule )

the BRB states vehicles unless otherwse stated in there codex cant move at crusing speed and shoot (specific wording for a general rule )

There you go


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:40:02


Post by: kirsanth




Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:45:30


Post by: snakel


LOL


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:48:07


Post by: SaintHazard


awww lookit the kitty


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:51:31


Post by: Rephistorch


snakel wrote:
Rephistorch wrote:
snakel wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:LOL its not a clear rulling
I agree if you were refering to this ruling:
snakel wrote:nope different take on language i say it can the English language says it can simple


I come from england where we speak english you come form the USA where you speak a version of english but not the the same as the Queens english.

Point in fact the 2 versions differ in many ways prounition ,meaning of certain words and meanings of certain sentances ,so yes we are both right in how we understand the rule but we both uderstand the rule differently


You can't hide behind a language defense if you can't prove that a word means something different in the queen's english than it does in american english.



it specificaly states the lith can move and use its power matirx (genral wording for a specific rule )

the BRB states vehicles unless otherwse stated in there codex cant move at crusing speed and shoot (specific wording for a general rule )

There you go


You didn't prove that any of those words mean something different in american english than they do in the queen's english.

The parts of the rules for shooting while moving are more specific in the case of cruising speed than they are in the case of the monolith. Therefore the rules regarding cruising speed are the ones that take precedence. I play necrons btw.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 22:52:29


Post by: puma713


snakel wrote:


it specificaly states the lith can move and use its power matirx (genral wording for a specific rule )

the BRB states vehicles unless otherwse stated in there codex cant move at crusing speed and shoot (specific wording for a general rule )

There you go


In the words of the Dread Pirate Roberts, "Truly you have a dizzying intellect."


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 23:03:06


Post by: snakel


I proved the the word move means move ie fast slow it means move however you want to look at it

the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move

the fact is there to see

crusing speed is moving no matter what spin you put on it

BRB rule General

lith rule specific

Specific rule beats specific wording in gereral rule

that is simple English

Thanks for the fun argument but i doubt we will ever agree unless its to agree we disagree


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 23:03:58


Post by: kirsanth


snakel wrote:the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move
Why do you assert this?

editing to add:
I am refering to the (now) bolded part.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 23:07:43


Post by: Rephistorch


snakel wrote:I proved the the word move means move ie fast slow it means move however you want to look at it

the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move

the fact is there to see

crusing speed is moving no matter what spin you put on it

BRB rule General

lith rule specific

Specific rule beats specific wording in gereral rule

that is simple English

Thanks for the fun argument but i doubt we will ever agree unless its to agree we disagree


BRB rule for shooting at cruising speed is specific to the speed of the vehicle. The monolith rule is not. Therefore you use the rule that is more specific to moving at that speed, which is the BRB.

Edit: I'll break it down solely to moving and shooting.

Monolith rules: The monolith may move (no speed mentioned) and use it's power matrix as a weapon.
Vehicle rules: A vehicle moving at cruising speed (12") may not shoot it's weapons.

The vehicle rules are more specific to the current situation (the monolith moving at cruising speed) than the monolith rules are. Therefore, the vehicle rules take precedence.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 23:10:55


Post by: snakel


Ok different angle the lith can only ever move 6"

crusing speed means 6" + so by your arguments the lith can not Deepstrike since its codex specifialy states it cant move more than 6"


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 23:12:23


Post by: kirsanth


snakel wrote:Ok different angle the lith can only ever move 6"

crusing speed means 6" + so by your arguments the lith can not Deepstrike since its codex specifialy states it cant move moe than 6"
DS counts as moving cruising speed.

Note:
It even mentions that immobile units can DS--in fact they may be required to.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 23:13:23


Post by: don_mondo


snakel wrote:I proved the the word move means move ie fast slow it means move however you want to look at it


So I can move my Leman Russ 24" AND STILL SHOOT? No, I don't think so.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/16 23:15:07


Post by: zeshin


Scratch that...full reverse.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 04:06:15


Post by: puma713


snakel wrote:

the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move



This is where you assume, when you're not given permission to assume. You know what they say about assumption?


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 05:15:38


Post by: Rephistorch


snakel wrote:

the lith rule is specific to the lith so it means any move



the lith rule is specific to the lith, but it is not specific to the type of movement that the lith is performing. The vehicle rules are more specific to the type of movement that is occurring.

That's what specific > general means. It's whatever rule is more specific in a given situation. Not what's more specific to the unit.

Example: When a vehicle suffers a weapon destroyed result, the weapon is removed and unusable. When a lith suffers a weapon destroyed result, it instead gets -1 to the number of attacks it can make with it's gauss weapon. Therefore the more specific rule about weapon destroyed results take effect.

Example 2: When a monolith moves, it can shoot. When a vehicle moves at cruising speed, it can not shoot. The more specific rule (with the more specific qualifier about moving and shooting) takes precedence. (hint: it's the vehicle movement rule that has a more specific qualifier.)


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 07:44:46


Post by: snakel


The monolith can only ever move 6" thats specific and its in the codex

so then with the 5th ed saying that deepstrike =crusing speed, that means by how you read rules that the specifc rule in the necron codex means it cannot Deepstrike

The lith rule does not say it can fire and move but it can use the power matrix even if it moves since by the specific rule in the codex it can only ever move 6" then that would superceed the BRB and say it only moves 6" no matter what ?

So using the english language you can use the matirx if you move but using your take on the english lanuage you cant use it if you deepstike so i cant teleport units or shoot nor can i deepstike since i cant move at Crusing speed .

No matter how you spin it you are taking the lith rule and trying to break it down into two diffrent meanings when it is only one therfore you are bendng the rules of the game and the english Lannguge to say it cant fire but can teleport and also it can move at Crusingspeed even though it cant .

So please make your minds up either it can use the powermatrix when it moves and deepstrikes in both ways it can be used or it cant use it at all nor can it deepstrike



Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 08:04:48


Post by: ChrisCP


? You can use the powermatix when you DS, just like the rule says, to teleport units. But not to shoot as we have another rules saying we can't that doesn't interact with the permission to use the power matrix (not explicit permission to use the particle whi[).


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 08:32:10


Post by: snakel


The lith rule does not say you can use the power matrix as a weapon even if you move just that you can use the power matrix

You are saying you can use the power matrix if you deepstrike to Teleport but not as a weapon the lith rule does not distinguish between shooting and teleport only that it can be used

Your arguments are the BRB is more specific so agian you cant by your reading for the rule deepstrike the lith

The specific rule in the codex states you can only move 6" ,the specific rule in the BRB says deepstriking = crusing sepeed , crusing speed = 6"+ the lith cant by its own specific wording move more than 6"

So to put it simply the lith cannot Deepstrike since it contaradicts the Specific BRB that says Deepstrike = crusing speed which the lith rule specificaly states its cant do

So agian make your minds up stop taking part of a rule and using it to make your argument right Either it cant Deepstike or it can ,and if it can which contardicts the BRB rule and its own rule for moving then it can fire the whip which is just part of the matirx which it can use if it moves

The issue here is the reading and understanding of english is totaly different person to person and also that you are veiwing the matirx as both teleporter and weapon when it is not it is just a power matirx

So if i move more than the specific lith rules says i can ,i am breaking the rules and if i fire the matirx as a whip i am in you view breaking the rules but i can use it as a teleporter which is where you are forgetting its a powermatrix not a weapon and is just engergy used to telport or released as a attack it only has weapon stats since in game you need to know how powerful it is .


So if you are right then the lith cant Deep strike so the issue of if it can use the matirx in whatever matter you choose is mute


This argument is the exact reason why GW should never make new rules unless the codexs all get updated at the same time to fall in line with said rules

In the end no matter what you say we are both right Since GW in the infinate wisdom see fit to make codexs with one set of rules then change the rules totaly yet fail to update the codexs to the same rule set



Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 08:40:48


Post by: DevianID


In regards to the 'lith being unable to move more than 6 inches, dont forget if a model has a special rule that would prevent it from moving on from reserve, then the special rule is ignored.

IE, if moving a monolith on from reserve, since the monolith is larger than 6 inches, you ignore the rule saying you can only ever move 6 inches. Thus, the monolith can move up to 12 inches when moving on the board edge from reserve.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 08:47:15


Post by: snakel


Changing rules to fit certain situtations hence why GW need there head bashing ,their english and even they cant grasp the simplistic of issues .

You cant say this is the rule and thats that ,but oh BTW you can change it if A=C and not B

GW have not made it clear nor have they botherd to address the issue so this is a mute argument since no one is right and no one is wrong


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 09:20:15


Post by: nosferatu1001


Snakel - it COUNTS AS moving cruising speed, it hasnt actually moved crusiing speed. So it can deepstrike just fine.

Secondly the more specific situation is that "moving" does not ever, ever, ever, state that you can still fire at cruising speed. The BRB rule is, for a change, STILL the more specific rule, so it applies.

It does have an answer, so is not a moot point.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 13:05:18


Post by: time wizard


DevianID wrote:In regards to the 'lith being unable to move more than 6 inches, dont forget if a model has a special rule that would prevent it from moving on from reserve, then the special rule is ignored.

IE, if moving a monolith on from reserve, since the monolith is larger than 6 inches, you ignore the rule saying you can only ever move 6 inches. Thus, the monolith can move up to 12 inches when moving on the board edge from reserve.


Ah, sorry but no, it can't. THe Monolith can only move 6". There's a whole other 14 page thread on whether or not a model must move "fully on" the table. Bottom line is that the Moolith may only move 6" per turn. When it moves on from reserve, this is usually sufficient to get the Monolith on.

@Snakel - As nosferatu1001 said, when the Monolith deep strikes, like any other vehicle, it counts as moving at cruising speed. This rule was not present in previous versions. So now any vehicle that deep strkies cannot fire weapons (unless fast or a skimmer). It used to be that land speeders could deep strike and fire all their weapons, now they can only fire one weapon. That's the new rules.

Also, you need to take another look at the Necron Codex. The Monolith entry says the Monolith may use the power matrix when it moves. It then gives the 2 ways the power matrix can be used. One way is as the particle whip, which is a weapon, and the other way is to teleport a unit of warriors in from reserve or to teleport a unit of Necrons from the tabletop.

Nowhere does it say the Monolith may move and fire any weapons at all, so you have to look at the BRB for those permissions, and as has been cited ad naseum, vehicles (except fast and skimmer) that move at cruising speed may not fire any weapons unless a rules specifically gives permission. And deep striking vehicles count as moving at cruising speed.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 14:17:34


Post by: Rephistorch


nosferatu1001, and time wizard make good points.

snakel wrote:Changing rules to fit certain situtations hence why GW need there head bashing ,their english and even they cant grasp the simplistic of issues .

You cant say this is the rule and thats that ,but oh BTW you can change it if A=C and not B

GW have not made it clear nor have they botherd to address the issue so this is a mute argument since no one is right and no one is wrong


Well now, GW bashing is certainly not productive to this discussion.

Yes, you can say this is the rule, but BTW, there are certain circumstances in which this rule is modified. That's how rules work. You can move and shoot. You, however, can not move more than 6" and shoot. The monolith does not ACTUALLY move more than 6", but when it deepstrikes it counts as moving at cruising speed.

Or to put it in your way if A=B (if vehicle is moving) it can shoot.
However, if A=C (vehicle is moving at cruising speed) it can NOT shoot.
I know you disagree with this principle, but that is exactly how rules systems work. There are more specific rules that govern general rules. While the monolith can normally move and shoot, it counts as moving at cruising speed when it deepstrikes. When moving at cruising speed, vehicles like the monolith (they're not fast, etc) can not shoot. Therefore, it can NOT shoot.

You haven't given a good, logical reason of why the monolith should be able to shoot at cruising speed. All you've said is, "But the monolith says I can move and shoot!" The specific overrides the general and you can not move and shoot at cruising speed. In order to come at the conclusion that the monolith can move and shoot at cruising speed, you have to point out a specific rule for the monolith that states it can move and shoot at cruising speed.

This is very, very clear in the rules. If you don't like the rule, that's alright. You can disagree with the changes GW has made in this edition. However, it is what the rules explicitly state in English, very clearly.

To reiterate: The only, and I mean ONLY way for you to prove your argument, is to show that the monolith has some special rule regarding movement at cruising speed. Not movement in general, but movement at cruising speed.

Please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, don't say, "The monolith says it can move and shoot, therefore it can always move and shoot, even at cruising speed". Your premise is wrong. There are special rules that revolve around cruising speed, and they have to be taken into account. You should start with: "The monolith counts as moving at cruising speed while deepstriking (complete RaW). Vehicles moving at cruising speed can not fire their weapons (RaW, with some exclusions)." What you need to add are your arguments proving that the monolith has a special, more specific, rule that allows you to move at cruising speed.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 15:21:01


Post by: don_mondo


Snakel, even IMMOBILE vehicles, ie things that can never move, can deepstrike and count as moving at Cruising speed. The Monolith's restriction to 6" is totolly irrelevant to the discussion. The only thing that matters is whether or not the Monolith rule gives it permission to fire when moving at Cruising speed. And since it does not do that, it cannot fire any weapons when it deep strikes. It's really that simple, and yet you have managed to drag it out for several pages. At least your post count is going up................


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 16:13:50


Post by: puma713


don_mondo wrote:Snakel, even IMMOBILE vehicles, ie things that can never move, can deepstrike and count as moving at Cruising speed. The Monolith's restriction to 6" is totolly irrelevant to the discussion. The only thing that matters is whether or not the Monolith rule gives it permission to fire when moving at Cruising speed. And since it does not do that, it cannot fire any weapons when it deep strikes. It's really that simple, and yet you have managed to drag it out for several pages. At least your post count is going up................


Bingo. It's the entire reason that drop pods cannot fire when they land. A drop pod is immobile. It moves 0". However, it moves 0" at cruising speed when it lands and so, therefore, may not fire.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 16:26:58


Post by: time wizard


puma713 wrote:
don_mondo wrote:Snakel, even IMMOBILE vehicles, ie things that can never move, can deepstrike and count as moving at Cruising speed. The Monolith's restriction to 6" is totolly irrelevant to the discussion. The only thing that matters is whether or not the Monolith rule gives it permission to fire when moving at Cruising speed. And since it does not do that, it cannot fire any weapons when it deep strikes. It's really that simple, and yet you have managed to drag it out for several pages. At least your post count is going up................


Bingo. It's the entire reason that drop pods cannot fire when they land. A drop pod is immobile. It moves 0". However, it moves 0" at cruising speed when it lands and so, therefore, may not fire.


Last sentence should be;
However, it counts as moving at cruising speed when it lands and so, therefore, may not fire.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 21:45:01


Post by: snakel


Ok the only reason i questioned the rule was because having just started using Necrons agian my current gaming gruop wanted to look at my codex so they could see what they could do .

After several of them looking at the codex they pointed out the power matirx rule saying" oh look you can use it even if you move ,that means even when you deep stike " i pointed out the argument on here that it could not which they all said was rubbish .

They stated that the lith rule was and is a specific rule for the lith and nothing else ,making it more specific than anything in the BRB , the wording in the BRB is specific but only in asfar as the rule which itself is a general rule, which can be superceded by a specific rule in the codex .

Now if i and 50% of the people i talk to can see this then it means the rule is not clear ,if it was just me then i would bow to the general thought ,but it is not !!!!!

I will not accept this is not a clear rule (above example proves it is not )

i will accept that we are all right, as in the way you understand the meaning of specific clearly is why this issue is here .

i see specific as realting to a specific thing that is in no way confused for another where as ,your reading of specific is that a general rule worded specificaly is more specific than a specific rule worded generaly

It is clear to me that this makes the rule unclear since the meaning of unclear means it can be understood differently by different people.

So in closing i do not believe you are wrong but i do not belive i am wrong i believe that GW are wrong not to clarify this rule by either saying the power matrix can be used at any speed (to bring it in line with the current BRB )or saying the lith rule is no longer relivant since the speeds it was wirrten for have changed

No its not GW bashing its comen sence you change one rule in a game you have to change all rules that would contradict that change otherwise you cause confusion



Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 21:49:13


Post by: kirsanth


snakel wrote:After several of them looking at the codex they pointed out the power matirx rule saying" oh look you can use it even if you move ,that means even when you deep stike " i pointed out the argument on here that it could not which they all said was rubbish .
Then you are fine with your friends. Play it as you all agree. The thing to bear in mind though is that if you play others you should discuss it. If a tourney ask the TO, but assume it won't work to DS then shoot.

ymmv


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 22:00:35


Post by: puma713


kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:After several of them looking at the codex they pointed out the power matirx rule saying" oh look you can use it even if you move ,that means even when you deep stike " i pointed out the argument on here that it could not which they all said was rubbish .
Then you are fine with your friends. Play it as you all agree. The thing to bear in mind though is that if you play others you should discuss it. If a tourney ask the TO, but assume it won't work to DS then shoot.

ymmv


Right. No matter how many of your friends think that it's wrong, it's not. I am the first one to tell you that there are multiple ways to read something and so, you can come to multiple conclusions. However this one is pretty cut and dry, I believe.

But as Kirsanth pointed out - so long as you're playing with your friends, then who cares. Play it like you want to play it. But I wouldn't expect to walk into a tournament, deep-strike a monolith and then shoot. And, if you are a tournament-goer, then just know that you probably won't be allowed to and expect that sort of ruling. Most people that play casually and at tournaments prefer to play one way and one way only, to get into a groove, work into a rhythm and really fine-tune their list. It can be difficult to really fine tune a list when you're working with two different rulesets from friendly play to competitive play, imo.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 22:01:22


Post by: snakel


since i play for fun i wont ever be in a tourney

and i always ask peolple what they think about a rule i believe to be unclear

But thanks for the argument it was fun and also the fact it was conducted by all with decorum


Automatically Appended Next Post:
puma713 wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
snakel wrote:After several of them looking at the codex they pointed out the power matirx rule saying" oh look you can use it even if you move ,that means even when you deep stike " i pointed out the argument on here that it could not which they all said was rubbish .
Then you are fine with your friends. Play it as you all agree. The thing to bear in mind though is that if you play others you should discuss it. If a tourney ask the TO, but assume it won't work to DS then shoot.

ymmv


Right. No matter how many of your friends think that it's wrong, it's not. I am the first one to tell you that there are multiple ways to read something and so, you can come to multiple conclusions. However this one is pretty cut and dry, I believe.

But as Kirsanth pointed out - so long as you're playing with your friends, then who cares. Play it like you want to play it. But I wouldn't expect to walk into a tournament, deep-strike a monolith and then shoot. And, if you are a tournament-goer, then just know that you probably won't be allowed to and expect that sort of ruling. Most people that play casually and at tournaments prefer to play one way and one way only, to get into a groove, work into a rhythm and really fine-tune their list. It can be difficult to really fine tune a list when you're working with two different rulesets from friendly play to competitive play, imo.


If it were cut and dried as you believe we would not be having this argument


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/17 22:05:21


Post by: kirsanth


snakel wrote:If it were cut and dried as you believe we would not be having this argument
In YMDC?! Pffft. Look at the "Difficult terrain....Destroys Vehicle?" thread.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/18 04:08:42


Post by: Veldrain


No argument about a codex two versions old is going to be cut and dry.


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/18 05:08:55


Post by: Rephistorch


Veldrain wrote:No argument about a codex two versions old is going to be cut and dry.


That's not the case when you interpret only RaW


Necron Power Matrix Teleportation @ 2010/09/18 11:45:15


Post by: nosferatu1001


Veldrain wrote:No argument about a codex two versions old is going to be cut and dry.


It is a cut and dried argument, people just dont like the answer and dont understand, despite beiong shown Sweeping Advance, that the rulebook can and often DOES override the codex