We received this “letter” last on 8-30-2010 from Battlefoam’s attorney. I wonder if it was also sent to the entire foam cutting industry, which would include the hundreds of companies listed on the Thomas Register in the foam cutting industry that has existed for more years than Romeo has been alive. Since we do not laser cut foam at all, I find this stunning. I understand patent applications very well as discussed by others many times on this board. I understand also, what is patentable and what is not. How do I know this?
Take a look at over 100 patents that have been in my family for over 50 years. Google ” Jack J. Gilbert”, my father. He invented and patented some of the world’s most innovative products that include, Mr. Coffee, the Electric Knife, Slicing Machines, Hand Held Steam Cleaner, The Switch to turn on and off traffic lights, Blood Serum Analyzer, Microfiche Reader, Mail Sorting Equipment and the list goes on an on. I take personal offense for such a ludicrous letter that was sent to my company.
We received this “letter” last on 8-30-2010 from Battlefoam’s attorney. I wonder if it was also sent to the entire foam cutting industry, which would include the hundreds of companies listed on the Thomas Register in the foam cutting industry that has existed for more years than Romeo has been alive. Since we do not laser cut foam at all, I find this stunning. I understand patent applications very well as discussed by others many times on this board. I understand also, what is patentable and what is not. How do I know this?
Take a look at over 100 patents that have been in my family for over 50 years. Google ” Jack J. Gilbert”, my father. He invented and patented some of the world’s most innovative products that include, Mr. Coffee, the Electric Knife, Slicing Machines, Hand Held Steam Cleaner, The Switch to turn on and off traffic lights, Blood Serum Analyzer, Microfiche Reader, Mail Sorting Equipment and the list goes on an on. I take personal offense for such a ludicrous letter that was sent to my company.
OMGFTFBQQ THIS UIS OUTARGISU AIM SO MAD RIGHT NAO!!!!!!
In all seriousness, it's a bit of a Bleh moment. Battlefoam are overpriced, and I seriously doubt this has any legitimacy, considering Sabol were there first.
Is this claiming that Sabol is re-selling the foam trays that Outrider is making? Didn't Outrider kinda win the original lawsuit (maybe it was thrown out?)
Umm Battlefoam is off their rockers? I knew about the Outrider spat since they used the word "foam" in their product but how this relates to Sabol is beyond me.
Outrider's website had this on the front page:
"Outrider Hobbies is not affiliated with Sabol Designs or the Army Transport brand."
http://outriderhobbies.com/
So unless I'm missing something and Sabol owns some or part of Outrider, it's a pointless letter.
Romeo should realize that blanket legal actions like this will turn people away from his product, even despite the "any press is press" deal.
Yet with the endless C&C's GW sends out it doesent even dent thier proffit.
Dont want to start an argument, but thought it was a slightly valid point.
A few things like this dont really do much to a well established company.
I'm guessing he took a page from GW and started with the ceasing and desisting as well, only in an attempt to one-up GW he's going after the competition directly and not through fan sites.
If you read the letter, it's actually not a C&D. It's asking them to do something very specific: track the sales of FOAM CORPS products, and any other infringing products.
I don't know anything about IP practice, but it could mostly be a "notice" letter telling Sabol that if they start laser cutting foam, they need to document it so they can pay royalties.
It's a weird way to do it, and maybe they're trying to scare competition, but the letter never mentions sabols products.
I think Polonius is right- it's talking about them selling Foam Corps products, not the ones that Sabol makes themselves.
I don't think you can patent cutting foam into custom shapes, though... if you could, you'd need to stop all manner of people from doing it (which is what I think the Sabol co-owner is referring to in his post that someone quoted) on the Thomas Register.
I assume battlefoam is only trying to patent it for this application (miniatures storage in custom cases) but I also don't think that is "patentable"... but regardless of all that, he's clearly going about it in an unfortunate manner.
Another straw making me lean towards Sabol, not Battlefoam, since I'd be storing my models magnetized to their movement trays, anyway, and so the extra space saved from the custom cutting isn't as important... and costs an arm and a leg, too!
generalgrog wrote:So the complaint is for using/selling foam cut by outrider hobbies? I thought Sabol were cutting foam long before outrider or battlefoam was around?
Apparently, after losing the foam wars, Battlefoam copying Sabol copying GW copying Chessex figure cases now means Battlefoam somehow invented the entire concept of foam figure cases?
I'd like to see the outrage mustered against GW when the C&D a website turned against Battlefoam.
I'm really hoping that Romeo did this due to an ill advisement from a greedy legal team or an uninformed business development team.
In a market that thrives on the internet such as the wargaming community this is the equivalent to shooting yourself in the foot, especially with all of the C&Ds from GW floating around and pissing people off.
I'd love to hear the explanation as to why this was done and the reasoning. Unlike GW, Battlefoam does not OWN the market on their product, they are only a small part of it.
I don't see anywhere on the Sabol site that they are selling any Foam Corps products. Maybe Romeo heard some sort of deal was in the works and this letter is an attempt to short circuit that move. I don't think he's alleging that any Sabol product infringes on his not yet approved patent application. So it's no big deal.
Except that Captain Filip can't let go of that outrider whale.
He had a manufactured witness / fake email? Poor form... . Definitely lost the chance of me becoming a customer, despite their superior product.
Will probably send Romeo an email to this effect as well.
Edit: To Polonius' comment above, while that is a possibility, it seems Romeo is well aware of what is going on in these cases. The "witness" was someone associated with him... not his lawyer.
It's a bizarre letter. While there are certain advantages to making sure your patent is known to your competitors, you don't have any enforceable rights until you actually have an issued patent. Once there IS an issued patent, certain damages can be retroactively calculated to the date of publication AND actual knowledge of the published application, which is all that this letter should be interpreted to mean.
I'm not sure where this "seek injunctive relief and additional damages for continuing infringement" assertion comes from - there's ISN'T any infringement until there is an issued patent, and merely having a patent application doesn't give any rights to injunctive relief or damages.
*edit: I do look forward to publication of the patent application, though - I'm (professionally) curious to see what is claimed.
He had a manufactured witness / fake email? Poor form... . Definitely lost the chance of me becoming a customer, despite their superior product.
Will probably send Romeo an email to this effect as well.
Edit: To Polonius' comment above, while that is a possibility, it seems Romeo is well aware of what is going on in these cases. The "witness" was someone associated with him... not his lawyer.
Just read the whole thing. It is a good read.. Best part?
Parenthetically, the court suggests that prior to refiling this complaint in another forum, Battle Foam and its counsel might give serious consideration to the legal claims they are advancing, as well as the factual allegations leveled against Wade to ensure that they are supported by legal authority and an evidentiary basis... (snip details)... At a minimum, a bit of sober reflection by Battle Foam and its counsel would seem to be in order. See generally (Fed. R. Civ. P. 11(b).
"This letter is to document your actual notice of your obligation..."
The idea here is to ensure that assuming the patent is issued, there will be records of sales for the BF folks to subpeona for patent or trademark infringement. Once those numbers are known, there are statutory penalties that can be assessed against an infringing company in a patent case (triple the profits plus attorney fees comes to mind). In a trademark case it helps demonstrate the degree of "confusion" which the trademark in question caused.
Like all TM/Copyright/Patent fights, the situation favors whoever can afford the most billable hours, but is far from certain.
RiTides wrote:
Edit: To Polonius' comment above, while that is a possibility, it seems Romeo is well aware of what is going on in these cases. The "witness" was someone associated with him... not his lawyer.
I was merely commenting on the letter sent to Sabol. Romeo would have to approve the filing of the action, or at least be aware of it.
LucasLAD wrote:I'm really hoping that Romeo did this due to an ill advisement from a greedy legal team or an uninformed business development team.
A lawyer could send this sort of letter out without the client's knowledge. It's improper to assume that Romeo authorized it.
It is another great example of the highly suspect PR face Romeo puts on his business.
That's possible but highly unlikely, what kind of business owner doesn't know what his attorney is doing? Also, at this point Romeo DOES know about it and should be either recalling the C&D or blatently stating that it was a mistake and draw up a formal apology for not knowing what's happening in his company. At this point he looks MUCH more guilty than he possibly is.
Also if his attorney did send this out without making him aware I would recommend him looking for another attorney
We like good drama and the Foam Wars are highly amusing.
I personally enjoying watching a person with two amazing skill sets (production of product and sales) fail utterly and repeatedly at another (public relations). It warms my heart to see a person with amazing abilities assume that he can also do other things equally well, and then implode.
Now lets all take a second here and think about this. Guys Romeo has helped out a TON of tournys and events with his products for free. He is a all around good person, and I for one would like to hear his side of the story before a flame fest occurs. How about someone email him and ask him maybe to clarify a bit before we cast judgement.
LucasLAD wrote:I'm really hoping that Romeo did this due to an ill advisement from a greedy legal team or an uninformed business development team.
A lawyer could send this sort of letter out without the client's knowledge. It's improper to assume that Romeo authorized it.
It is another great example of the highly suspect PR face Romeo puts on his business.
That's possible but highly unlikely, what kind of business owner doesn't know what his attorney is doing? Also, at this point Romeo DOES know about it and should be either recalling the C&D or blatently stating that it was a mistake and draw up a formal apology for not knowing what's happening in his company. At this point he looks MUCH more guilty than he possibly is.
Also if his attorney did send this out without making him aware I would recommend him looking for another attorney
I once filed a counterclaim on behalf of a client without telling him. As a lawyer, I only need approval in a civil case to offer or accept a settlement. Every other aspect is up to me. it's possible that the firm in question is simply strongly advocating for their client, which is to say doing their job.
Now, if I were Romeo, I'd issue a statement apologizing for the letter, claiming it was sent to the wrong company or something.
Romeo should realize that blanket legal actions like this will turn people away from his product, even despite the "any press is press" deal.
Yet with the endless C&C's GW sends out it doesent even dent thier proffit.
Dont want to start an argument, but thought it was a slightly valid point.
A few things like this dont really do much to a well established company.
I might disagree with this since GW has an extremely large offline user base. Most GW buyers most likely don't know or care about their C&D orders. I know I have only actually ever heard of one since I am mainly posting the P&M forums. Battlefoam however is a mainly online company ( I do not believe that they actually have real stores), and therefore a larger part of thier customer base will learn about the orders. Also, any hate against GW usually falls into the constant background noise of hate against GW, whereas Battlefoam has generally been positively viewed, and this may (or may not) change that view in many people, or at least a higher percentage of customers.
Polonius is right. This letter is not a c&d. This is an informative letter that gives battlefoam copyright priviliges before it actually has a patent. This letter was probably sent out to every foam company in one form or another. Essentially, if you start laser cutting foam, or are right now, you could be liable for copyright infringement even though there is no patent right now. The letter is just Battlefoam exercising its legal right and increasing its legal protection.
Romeo does create a great product. I'm in the process of switching from Sabol to Battle Foam. It's expensive and a slow process, but I do love the bags. He also seems like 'one of us' as a gamer and somebody who cares about the hobby. This type of behavior is always suspect, but I definitely wish him great luck with the company and look forward to dropping a ton more money his way.
The Internet isn't friendly and I'm sure the stuff he has done for the hobby gets overshadowed by these things without much thought. The Internet is a negative place. It's discouraging. Growing a business can't be easy and there are bound to be missteps like this one.
Since when was foam blocks with firm backing that are put in a simple bag copyrighted/patented? If is this the case I'm just gonna start trying to copyright the usage of backpacks.
Seriously, I can't foam a reason why this makes sense.
The copy of the judge's order from the first suit is priceless. That's about as close as he can legally come to declaring Battlefoam's owner a liar (manufacturing a witness) and dbag (filing in a completely inappropriate jurisdiction to make life difficult for the defendent) without actually coming out and saying it.
That's enough for me, I could care less about his motives in his letter to Sabol, he has proven his character with his earlier actions, and it's on the record.
I was actually on the Battlefoam site setting up a custom order for my Birthday when I read this. Not happening now.
Even though it's a legal right (and perhaps even prudent business-wise), I generally frown upon strong arm tactics like this. Considering that this is such a small community, there has to have been a more friendly way to inform the other companies that Battlefoam is patenting laser cut foam for miniature storage.
Now I'll reconsider the Battlefoam purchases I was planning for November.
The letter had to do with the selling of Foam Corp. In no way does it say for Sabol to stop producing foam. I'm shocked once again that people have no reading comprehension, nor does co-owner of Sabol evidently.
Will it really impact sales? No, it has not hurt GW at all.
While companies have a right to try and make it in the good old USA, companies also have a right to protect themselves. This will all work it's way out. If Sabol hasn't done what they have been CDed for then it is on BF, but if they have done what has been stated they will be held responsible.
Ultimately people are going to nerd rage and say they will never buy BF when honestly they had no intention. BF in 2 years has surpassed what Sabol has done in 10. They had the vision to team up with PP, Malifaux, and so on. Sabol has continued to put out the same bags for 10 years. Oh wait the are adding 'Armor Plates" to their bags, but do we see BF making soft cases. It seems to me that BF is on the way up and Sabol is slowly dying on the vine.
P.S. It has to do with Outrider Hobbies and not Sabol....
Defending IP and a *PENDING* patent to a company that is not infringing smacks of exactly what the Judged warned them against.
You can not claim damages if there are none. The foam process at Sabol (a company that has been open longer than BF) is different (pluck vs. laser cut). Additionally, Sabol does not sale nor has any business relationship with Outrider. Additionally, Outrider has openly disavowed any sort of relationship with Sabol.
Did BF hire a lawyer straight out of ambulance chaser's school? What a waste of paper.
I have never seen Romeo claim to have a patent on foam trays.
What he has applied to patent is the METHOD he uses to create them. Production methods can be patented.
And for all the comments about how long foam trays have existed, look up paper clips.
There are at least 20 patents for forms and methods of creating paper clips.
It doesn't matter how unoriginal or common a thing may be, if the patent office awards the patent, you have it.
kinghammer wrote:The letter had to do with the selling of Foam Corp. In no way does it say for Sabol to stop producing foam. I'm shocked once again that people have no reading comprehension, nor does co-owner of Sabol evidently.
Will it really impact sales? No, it has not hurt GW at all.
While companies have a right to try and make it in the good old USA, companies also have a right to protect themselves. This will all work it's way out. If Sabol hasn't done what they have been CDed for then it is on BF, but if they have done what has been stated they will be held responsible.
Ultimately people are going to nerd rage and say they will never buy BF when honestly they had no intention. BF in 2 years has surpassed what Sabol has done in 10. They had the vision to team up with PP, Malifaux, and so on. Sabol has continued to put out the same bags for 10 years. Oh wait the are adding 'Armor Plates" to their bags, but do we see BF making soft cases. It seems to me that BF is on the way up and Sabol is slowly dying on the vine.
P.S. It has to do with Outrider Hobbies and not Sabol....
When writing a legal letter, you want to be clear, as a general rule. There are two reasons for legal writing to not be clear and easy to read: it's simply poorly written, or it's an attempt to encourage an improper reading.
If I were to have drafted the letter, assuming that BF simply wants to put all competitors on notice about their patent, I would have mentioned that this was merely informative, that any later decisions to sell laser cut foam can be actionable, etc.
If I were to have drafted a letter that was meant to scare or intimidate another company into thinking that they were going to get sued, I'd write somethign similar to what was posted.
So, either BF has a lawyer that can't write very well (likely), or was trying to say more than they legally could through muddy language (also likely).
I guess it depends whether you think lawyers aren't nearly as smart as they seem or that Romeo is simply a cold blooded businessman. Alas, I think both.
GW have worked with Sabol in the past. Remember those soft cases with the Aquila? Sabol (shame about the crappy eggshell foam though. Still, I didn't pay for mine!).
Polonius wrote:When writing a legal letter, you want to be clear, as a general rule. There are two reasons for legal writing to not be clear and easy to read: it's simply poorly written, or it's an attempt to encourage an improper reading.
If I were to have drafted the letter, assuming that BF simply wants to put all competitors on notice about their patent, I would have mentioned that this was merely informative, that any later decisions to sell laser cut foam can be actionable, etc.
If I were to have drafted a letter that was meant to scare or intimidate another company into thinking that they were going to get sued, I'd write somethign similar to what was posted.
So, either BF has a lawyer that can't write very well (likely), or was trying to say more than they legally could through muddy language (also likely).
I guess it depends whether you think lawyers aren't nearly as smarthonest as they seem or that Romeo is simply a cold bloodedunethical businessman.
Are you familiar with Groklaw?
Based on their legal actions Battlefoam (also Diablo Bats) seems to be very much akin to SCO, and the idea that the CEO doesn't know about pending litigation is pretty dubious.
If only GW could somehow become party to the suit and countersue like IBM did to SCO...
There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.
kinghammer wrote:There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.
My Kingdom for some nerds that can read!
Forgive my lack of legaleese. But why didn't the BF lawyer state it that way then?
Look, when you hire a lawyer, usually it's because you can't or don't want to do something yourself. Either way, it's not unusual for a client to grant pretty broad powers (not coincidentally often called Power of Attorney) to their counsel.
Sending a letter like this probably shouldn't' appear on Romeo's radar. It's basic lawyering.
I think both side went a bit wobbly on this. Whatever Jack J Gilbert did actually invent and what he told his daughter he invented may be slightly different lists Considering that Ms Haynes challenges them to use Google is just a ludicrous thing for a company owner especially as patent offices don't use Google to catalogue items!
I do feel for her, as the absurdity of Battlefoam is outstanding, but the outburst that she has publiclly released is just daft. Bet she's awful to work for!
kinghammer wrote:There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.
My Kingdom for some nerds that can read!
Even when both parties state there is no business relationship?
Actually, I think this is more along the lines of a poorly worded letter sent to all foam manufacturers in the case that Outrider attempts to do business with them.
Even in that case, since the original lawsuit was thrown out, Outrider should be allowed to conduct business if/until there's an appeal.
kinghammer wrote:There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.
My Kingdom for some nerds that can read!
Forgive my lack of legaleese. But why didn't the BF lawyer state it that way then?
Allow me to repeat myself:
When writing a legal letter, you want to be clear, as a general rule. There are two reasons for legal writing to not be clear and easy to read: it's simply poorly written, or it's an attempt to encourage an improper reading.
If I were to have drafted the letter, assuming that BF simply wants to put all competitors on notice about their patent, I would have mentioned that this was merely informative, that any later decisions to sell laser cut foam can be actionable, etc.
If I were to have drafted a letter that was meant to scare or intimidate another company into thinking that they were going to get sued, I'd write somethign similar to what was posted.
So, either BF has a lawyer that can't write very well (likely), or was trying to say more than they legally could through muddy language (also likely).
I guess it depends whether you think lawyers aren't nearly as smart honest as they seem or that Romeo is simply a cold blooded businessman.
In short, either it was written in five minutes by a law clerk and then signed by the lawyer and thus zero though went into it, the lawyer in question can't write particularly well, or it's an effort to imply more than they can state. We don't' know which it is though. We all have our gut feelings based on previous events, but we don't know.
kinghammer wrote:The letter had to do with the selling of Foam Corp. In no way does it say for Sabol to stop producing foam. I'm shocked once again that people have no reading comprehension, nor does co-owner of Sabol evidently.
Thanks kinghammer, I thought I was the only one that noticed that.
agnosto wrote:Defending IP and a *PENDING* patent to a company that is not infringing smacks of exactly what the Judged warned them against.
You can not claim damages if there are none. The foam process at Sabol (a company that has been open longer than BF) is different (pluck vs. laser cut). Additionally, Sabol does not sale nor has any business relationship with Outrider. Additionally, Outrider has openly disavowed any sort of relationship with Sabol.
OT, I believe that we are jumping to conclusions without hearing Romeo's side of the story (if this even is a C&D which, like some others, I doubt). Now, that's not to say I endorse strong arming-I don't-but I also don't endorse making desicions without collecting as much evidence as I can.
kinghammer wrote:There is no law suit! Read the paper! BF is not suing over foam. It has to do with the biz relationship of Sabol and Outrider. In fact BF is helping Sabol by telling them to stop working with OH so they don't get in trouble in the future.
My Kingdom for some nerds that can read!
Even when both parties state there is no business relationship?
Actually, I think this is more along the lines of a poorly worded letter sent to all foam manufacturers in the case that Outrider attempts to do business with them.
Even in that case, since the original lawsuit was thrown out, Outrider should be allowed to conduct business if/until there's an appeal.
Why was OH foam in bags and being sold with Sabol bags at Gen Con... It's cool I will wait for your answer.
@Whitedragon:
Missed that when I was looking at their site. Meh. That still doesn't even come close to stating any relationship between OH and Sabol. If it's not an OH product, the letter doesn't mean anything. OH states that he has no relationship with Sabol; burden of proof is on BF to produce one (other than a falsified one, obviously).
@kinghammer:
Huh? I said they should be able to selll their products since the original case was thrown out. I don't get your point unless you're agreeing with me and don't realize it?
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Like others on here I read the document and nowhere does it say "stop making foam" to Sabol. In the end products speak for themselves. I mean how many people really stopped buying GW when they sent out their letters? I dont care if the board of GW run over kittens for fun or how many letters they send out....they make awesome models and I will continue to buy their stuff, just like I will buy BF
OT, I believe that we are jumping to conclusions without hearing Romeo's side of the story (if this even is a C&D which, like some others, I doubt). Now, that's not to say I endorse strong arming-I don't-but I also don't endorse making desicions without collecting as much evidence as I can.
Ok, I'm going to break this down pretty simply. A cease and desist letter is sent to alert a party that they are currently doing something that the sending party finds actionable. It asks them to stop (a synonym of both cease and desist).
This letter, which I call a "notice letter", does not ask Sabol to stop anything. In fact, it says to start doing something (document sales of lasercut foam). In fact, if you read the letter it says the words "actual notice," which is the legal term for "you, as a person, do indeed now have this information." This differs from constructive notice, which is usually stuff that a person almost couldn't possibly not know.
So, it's not a C&D, if only because there's no way to comply...
OT, I believe that we are jumping to conclusions without hearing Romeo's side of the story (if this even is a C&D which, like some others, I doubt). Now, that's not to say I endorse strong arming-I don't-but I also don't endorse making desicions without collecting as much evidence as I can.
Ok, I'm going to break this down pretty simply. A cease and desist letter is sent to alert a party that they are currently doing something that the sending party finds actionable. It asks them to stop (a synonym of both cease and desist).
This letter, which I call a "notice letter", does not ask Sabol to stop anything. In fact, it says to start doing something (document sales of lasercut foam). In fact, if you read the letter it says the words "actual notice," which is the legal term for "you, as a person, do indeed now have this information." This differs from constructive notice, which is usually stuff that a person almost couldn't possibly not know.
So, it's not a C&D, if only because there's no way to comply...
Glad some people on here have some smarts! Thank you for breaking it down.
@Polonius:
I especially like how specific the language was in that it is only in relation to OH's products. Sabol can continue to cut their foam any way they like.
Unless, as you mentioned, it's worded in such a way as to be a warning regarding their single, solitary pre-cut product.
agnosto wrote:@Whitedragon:
Missed that when I was looking at their site. Meh. That still doesn't even come close to stating any relationship between OH and Sabol. If it's not an OH product, the letter doesn't mean anything. OH states that he has no relationship with Sabol; burden of proof is on BF to produce one (other than a falsified one, obviously).
@kinghammer:
Huh? I said they should be able to selll their products since the original case was thrown out. I don't get your point unless you're agreeing with me and don't realize it?
OH foam was being sold with Sabol bags at Gen Con. Big signs and everything! Where you there? I was, I saw them bagged up and I saw the BF area sold out by Sat and poor Neal(war store) stuck with those to sub par products all weekend.
Its like when Germany and Russian split Poland(secret deals) before WWII and yes I'm comparing Sabol to Stalin and OH to Hitler. lol (someone will try to make that connection so I headed them off at the pass)
agnosto wrote:@Polonius:
I especially like how specific the language was in that it is only in relation to OH's products. Sabol can continue to cut their foam any way they like.
Unless, as you mentioned, it's worded in such a way as to be a warning regarding their single, solitary pre-cut product.
The letter does mention that they must document any other sales of "the infringing product." Based on the patent application for a process for laser cutting foam, I'd have to imagine that any Sabol trays cut using that process would be included.
I'd guess that their precut trays use the same process as the pick and pluck, but I could always be wrong.
Polonius wrote:
When writing a legal letter, you want to be clear, as a general rule. There are two reasons for legal writing to not be clear and easy to read: it's simply poorly written, or it's an attempt to encourage an improper reading.
You forgot the third, and most common reason: lawyers love using complicated "legalese" because it makes you need them to figure out what someone else's lawyer has sent you.
Polonius wrote:
In short, either it was written in five minutes by a law clerk and then signed by the lawyer and thus zero though went into it...
Well for one thing, that's a lazy-ass lawyer. I have a picture of this happening a lot with GW's legal team though. "You there! Draft me a dozen letters telling someone to stop doing something or we'll sue them!"
Polonius wrote: trying to say more than they legally could through muddy language
Doesn't that sum up the legal profession in general?
Not always. I've handled cases where I had to read a complaint five times to actual figure out the cause of action. It was important in the case because one CoA had a six year statute of limitations while another had 15 years. I think it's likely that the complaint was written so as to actually say the six year cause, but to look like a 15 year case. It does happen.
Most legal writing is done by and for other lawyers, and looking like an idiot in front of opposing counsel often isnt worth the very small chance you trick them. In legal actions taken against people without lawyers, and unlikely to retain them, it is more common to try to scare them with legalese. The best legal briefs can be read and understood by nearly any reasonably intelligent and educated person, however.
OT, I believe that we are jumping to conclusions without hearing Romeo's side of the story (if this even is a C&D which, like some others, I doubt). Now, that's not to say I endorse strong arming-I don't-but I also don't endorse making desicions without collecting as much evidence as I can.
Ok, I'm going to break this down pretty simply. A cease and desist letter is sent to alert a party that they are currently doing something that the sending party finds actionable. It asks them to stop (a synonym of both cease and desist).
This letter, which I call a "notice letter", does not ask Sabol to stop anything. In fact, it says to start doing something (document sales of lasercut foam). In fact, if you read the letter it says the words "actual notice," which is the legal term for "you, as a person, do indeed now have this information." This differs from constructive notice, which is usually stuff that a person almost couldn't possibly not know.
So, it's not a C&D, if only because there's no way to comply...
Which, the cynic would say, is another way of f'ing with Outrider. Threaten anyone who may, or may not, be doing business with them that in the future you will come to collect money for past sales.
Legally it's pretty dubious that they would be granted anything retroactive, especially as there's already an order dismissing Battlefoam's previous attempt to stop Outrider from doing business, but if Sabol's not doing much business with Outrider they could easily say "screw it, it's not worth the trouble."
Alpharius wrote:
Anyway, everyone stay calm in this thread, OK?
Sage advice from Alpharius. If the involved parties took that to heart, this thread wouldn't even exist. I'm honestly not sure which side's worse, the one sending the letter, or the one complaining that the letter was sent to them.
Polonius wrote: When writing a legal letter, you want to be clear, as a general rule. There are two reasons for legal writing to not be clear and easy to read: it's simply poorly written, or it's an attempt to encourage an improper reading.
You forgot the third, and most common reason: lawyers love using complicated "legalese" because it makes you need them to figure out what someone else's lawyer has sent you.
Lol. Believe it or not, when you're in practice you're more concerned with winning for your client than getting business for other lawyers. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but most legalese is meant to intimidate and scare, not to encourage the hiring of counsel.
hungryp wrote:
Polonius wrote: In short, either it was written in five minutes by a law clerk and then signed by the lawyer and thus zero though went into it...
Well for one thing, that's a lazy-ass lawyer. I have a picture of this happening a lot with GW's legal team though. "You there! Draft me a dozen letters telling someone to stop doing something or we'll sue them!"
odmiller wrote:
Which, the cynic would say, is another way of f'ing with Outrider. Threaten anyone who may, or may not, be doing business with them that in the future you will come to collect money for past sales.
Legally it's pretty dubious that they would be granted anything retroactive, especially as there's already an order dismissing Battlefoam's previous attempt to stop Outrider from doing business, but if Sabol's not doing much business with Outrider they could easily say "screw it, it's not worth the trouble."
I'm pretty sure that's what Battlefoam is hoping.
It's possible that you know more about IP law than I do, but based on what Janthkin said when a patent is granted, it does allow for the collection of retroactive royalties.
The case attempting to halt OH previously was dismissed without prejudice, which means it can be refiled. It also is a very different case, built on a different cause of action. There he was suing on pretty straight common law grounds. After he has the patent, he can sue again for retroactive royalties.
Polonius wrote: most legalese is meant to intimidate and scare, not to encourage the hiring of counsel.
Meh! Same idea!
Not in the slightest. When you sue a party, you'd like to encourage them to settle. So, i might write a scary letter, and then follow it with an offer to settle. I don't' want you to hire a lawyer, because she might tell you to fight it out, whereas a scared person on their own might just pay me off.
Divorce litigation is a racket set up to keep lawyers in business, I'll give you that.
kinghammer wrote:
OH foam was being sold with Sabol bags at Gen Con. Big signs and everything! Where you there? I was, I saw them bagged up and I saw the BF area sold out by Sat and poor Neal(war store) stuck with those to sub par products all weekend.
So it was the Warstore selling OH trays inside Sabol cases?
That would make sense as the genesis for this letter. BF gets the idea that Sabol has gone into business with OH when it was just Neal trying to offer a combination of products from two companies that have no business relationship of their own.
All the odd moralizing going on in here, where we all continue to buy GW's products? Odd, to say the least!
Not really, since with regards to foam protection for my miniatures, I have many choices.
When it comes to buying Space Marines from the 40K universe, I can only buy from GW.
So, in that way, despite GW's business practices, I cannot buy Space Marines elsewhere. But in this case, I can certainly choose a SABOL case over a Battlefoam case.
kinghammer wrote:
OH foam was being sold with Sabol bags at Gen Con. Big signs and everything! Where you there? I was, I saw them bagged up and I saw the BF area sold out by Sat and poor Neal(war store) stuck with those to sub par products all weekend.
So it was the Warstore selling OH trays inside Sabol cases?
That would make sense as the genesis for this letter. BF gets the idea that Sabol has gone into business with OH when it was just Neal trying to offer a combination of products from two companies that have no business relationship of their own.
All the odd moralizing going on in here, where we all continue to buy GW's products? Odd, to say the least!
Not really, since with regards to foam protection for my miniatures, I have many choices.
When it comes to buying Space Marines from the 40K universe, I can only buy from GW.
Funniest part is that maybe half a dozen, at most, of GW's C&Ds have been in regards to models being made as knock-offs of their IP or just recasts of their stuff.
Most of them crop up in regards to websites hosting content that's copywritten/trademarked(albeit, with most of these sites claiming the content to be public domain due to the stuff being out of print...which isn't the case).
So, in that way, despite GW's business practices, I cannot buy Space Marines elsewhere. But in this case, I can certainly choose a SABOL case over a Battlefoam case.
This Romeo guy from Battlefoam sounds like a real tool. It amuses me greatly.
Why is GW being mentioned every third post in this thread?
AFAIKGW haven't sent letters out to anyone that has anything to do with miniature space men with guns. They protect their specific IP. If BattleFoam was pursuing Sabol because they were using their name or slogans then this would be comparable otherwise what the hell are you all talking about?
whitedragon wrote:
Arsch, you forgot to add, "In my opinion".
Er, what?
I wasn't offering an opinion, I was speculating based on what kinghammer posted. It seems to fit the data points (I hesitate to call them facts) we have at the moment:
a. BF sent letter to Sabol saying "watch out if you sell OH stuff!"
b. Sabol doesn't make or sell anything with/for OH
c. Kinghammer says he say OH foam in Sabol bags for sale at GenCon.
plastictrees wrote:Why is GW being mentioned every third post in this thread?
AFAIKGW haven't sent letters out to anyone that has anything to do with miniature space men with guns. They protect their specific IP. If BattleFoam was pursuing Sabol because they were using their name or slogans then this would be comparable otherwise what the hell are you all talking about?
BattleFoam isn't "pursuing" Sabol at all. It's a (poorly worded) notice letter.
Good point, Alpharius, and hopefully we can avoid the nerd-rage this time... however, things like in the above link (manufacturing a false witness / email) bother me more than GW's practices, because at least with GW I can chalk it up to the legal arm of a giant company. With BF, it looks like a one-man vendetta against another... and frankly that gets my goat.
Especially with the above evidence, it makes me not want to deal with Battlefoam professionally at all...
kinghammer wrote:OH foam was being sold with Sabol bags at Gen Con. Big signs and everything! Where you there? I was, I saw them bagged up and I saw the BF area sold out by Sat and poor Neal(war store) stuck with those to sub par products all weekend.
Its like when Germany and Russian split Poland(secret deals) before WWII and yes I'm comparing Sabol to Stalin and OH to Hitler. lol (someone will try to make that connection so I headed them off at the pass)
I knows nuzzing colonel hogan. I never claimed to be there; I just stated what one of the mentioned parties has on their website, that they have no relationship to the other (OH's website, see my post on the 1st page). Speaking of, from Outrider's website I found this jewel:
"That's right, by way of a small miracle, Outrider Hobbies is going to Gen Con 2010. TheWarStore.com has graciously asked us to send them some promotional fliers and some of our product to show off to the masses. It was a great honor just to be asked.
It has however been a whirlwind flight just to get everything ready to go, and all I sent was a couple of the Force Ops bags, some foam, 500 fliers, and 4 banners. I hate to imagine what it will be like if I go for real next year.
Anyways, if you'd like to check out our stuff, please stop by and see TheWarStore.com, and if you like what you see, check out www.outriderhobbies.com/store. There will be a discount code, but I am hoping to just use it in the new store if we can get it done. "
plastictrees wrote:Why is GW being mentioned every third post in this thread?
AFAIKGW haven't sent letters out to anyone that has anything to do with miniature space men with guns. They protect their specific IP. If BattleFoam was pursuing Sabol because they were using their name or slogans then this would be comparable otherwise what the hell are you all talking about?
BattleFoam isn't "pursuing" Sabol at all. It's a (poorly worded) notice letter.
Right, that's partly what I'm saying. Read everything after "If BattleFoam was..." as being the imaginary 'lol just like GREEDworkshop amirite guyz!?' scenario people seem to be imagining.
kinghammer wrote:OH foam was being sold with Sabol bags at Gen Con. Big signs and everything! Where you there? I was, I saw them bagged up and I saw the BF area sold out by Sat and poor Neal(war store) stuck with those to sub par products all weekend.
Its like when Germany and Russian split Poland(secret deals) before WWII and yes I'm comparing Sabol to Stalin and OH to Hitler. lol (someone will try to make that connection so I headed them off at the pass)
I knows nuzzing colonel hogan. I never claimed to be there; I just stated what one of the mentioned parties has on their website, that they have no relationship to the other (OH's website, see my post on the 1st page). Speaking of, from Outrider's website I found this jewel:
"That's right, by way of a small miracle, Outrider Hobbies is going to Gen Con 2010. TheWarStore.com has graciously asked us to send them some promotional fliers and some of our product to show off to the masses. It was a great honor just to be asked.
It has however been a whirlwind flight just to get everything ready to go, and all I sent was a couple of the Force Ops bags, some foam, 500 fliers, and 4 banners. I hate to imagine what it will be like if I go for real next year.
Anyways, if you'd like to check out our stuff, please stop by and see TheWarStore.com, and if you like what you see, check out www.outriderhobbies.com/store. There will be a discount code, but I am hoping to just use it in the new store if we can get it done. "
Flachzange wrote:Maybe someone could change the titel of this thread. As it is, all the drama queens will be drawn into this thread like a bear to honey.
"BattleFoam murders Sabol babies in all night foam orgy" is my suggested replacement.
Typical Battlefoam. I like that they support the community through things like 40k Radio and they make great products but they seem like a bunch of asshats especially considering their history and this recent news. Why can't they be like Neal from thewarstore.com....smh
Since you work for Battle Foam, LLC, why don't you tell us if the Warstore got the same C&D.
Oh, and by the way everyone, I got the same letter yesterday as well. And in case you all didn't know, Kinghammer is Kyle Kinghorn. Formerly of Empire Games in Arizona, and current employee of Battle Foam, LLC.
Cane wrote:Typical Battlefoam. I like that they support the community through things like 40k Radio and they make great products but they seem like a bunch of asshats especially considering their history and this recent news. Why can't they be like Neal from thewarstore.com....smh
Typical Gamer.........judging someone or a company without (most likely) having dealt with him or her.
Cane wrote:Typical Battlefoam. I like that they support the community through things like 40k Radio and they make great products but they seem like a bunch of asshats especially considering their history and this recent news. Why can't they be like Neal from thewarstore.com....smh
Typical Gamer.........judging someone or a company without (most likely) having dealt with him or her.
Didn't Romeo call everyone a bunch of 'clowns' last time he and his company got themselves some bad publicity? They seem clueless on that end.
Since you work for Battle Foam, LLC, why don't you tell us if the Warstore got the same C&D.
Oh, and by the way everyone, I got the same letter yesterday as well. And in case you all didn't know, Kinghammer is Kyle Kinghorn. Formerly of Empire Games in Arizona, and current employee of Battle Foam, LLC.
Lol, I put him on ignore months ago for loudly berating anyone criticising GW pricing.
Since you work for Battle Foam, LLC, why don't you tell us if the Warstore got the same C&D.
Oh, and by the way everyone, I got the same letter yesterday as well. And in case you all didn't know, Kinghammer is Kyle Kinghorn. Formerly of Empire Games in Arizona, and current employee of Battle Foam, LLC.
Lol, I put him on ignore months ago for loudly berating anyone criticising GW pricing.
Since you work for Battle Foam, LLC, why don't you tell us if the Warstore got the same C&D.
Oh, and by the way everyone, I got the same letter yesterday as well. And in case you all didn't know, Kinghammer is Kyle Kinghorn. Formerly of Empire Games in Arizona, and current employee of Battle Foam, LLC.
Brian Wade,
Not formerly of Empire games. The same store where you came to sell you crap foam and we told you to beat street. Your the same B. wade who toured BF facility and then went and "started" his own company, then admitted on a podcast it was not his idea and you stole it. The same devout Mormon that use fowl language and lied in a civil court case where I was a witness to. Not very pious. thank god you had your buddy judge rule in your favor than later had the case relocated and thrown out because it was garbage.
BrookM wrote:I'm guessing he took a page from GW and started with the ceasing and desisting as well, only in an attempt to one-up GW he's going after the competition directly and not through fan sites.
Thats exactly why i dont purchase Games-Workshop products anymore, and this maybe why i dont buy Battlefoam anymore. Smart Parts did this to electronic paintball guns about 8 years ago and i havent used any of their things for just as long.
Since you work for Battle Foam, LLC, why don't you tell us if the Warstore got the same C&D.
Oh, and by the way everyone, I got the same letter yesterday as well. And in case you all didn't know, Kinghammer is Kyle Kinghorn. Formerly of Empire Games in Arizona, and current employee of Battle Foam, LLC.
Brian Wade,
Not formerly of Empire games. The same store where you came to sell you crap foam and we told you to beat street. Your the same B. wade who toured BF facility and then went and "started" his own company, then admitted on a podcast it was not his idea and you stole it. The same devout Mormon that use fowl language and lied in a civil court case where I was a witness to. Not very pious. thank god you had your buddy judge rule in your favor than later had the case relocated and thrown out because it was garbage.
If you wanted to air stuff we can do this.
INTERNET FIGHT! INTERNET FIGHT!
I put $5 on the Mormon! They fight dirty, threaten your souls and whatnot.
Since you work for Battle Foam, LLC, why don't you tell us if the Warstore got the same C&D.
Oh, and by the way everyone, I got the same letter yesterday as well. And in case you all didn't know, Kinghammer is Kyle Kinghorn. Formerly of Empire Games in Arizona, and current employee of Battle Foam, LLC.
Brian Wade,
Not formerly of Empire games. The same store where you came to sell you crap foam and we told you to beat street. Your the same B. wade who toured BF facility and then went and "started" his own company, then admitted on a podcast it was not his idea and you stole it. The same devout Mormon that use fowl language and lied in a civil court case where I was a witness to. Not very pious. thank god you had your buddy judge rule in your favor than later had the case relocated and thrown out because it was garbage.
If you wanted to air stuff we can do this.
INTERNET FIGHT! INTERNET FIGHT!
I put $5 on the Mormon! They fight dirty, threaten your souls and whatnot.
Internet fights are about getting your point across with punctuation and grammar.
You can't even spell "lose" or "foul".
Also:
If you have any evidence of the "buddy judge" bit and a mishandling(if the judge has an interest or improper tie to any party involved in the case they're supposed to recuse themselves for impartiality's sake), you should contact your local authorities rather than cry about it on these forums.
Because that's kinda illegal and could mean jailtime for the judge, along with him getting dismissed from his position or facing censure.
kanluwen wrote:If you have any evidence of the "buddy judge" bit and a mishandling(if the judge has an interest or improper tie to any party involved in the case they're supposed to recuse themselves for impartiality's sake), you should contact your local authorities rather than cry about it on these forums.
Because that's kinda illegal and could mean jailtime for the judge, along with him getting dismissed from his position or facing censure.
And if he doesn't and the judge hears about it, he could get sued for libel....
We like good drama and the Foam Wars are highly amusing.
I personally enjoying watching a person with two amazing skill sets (production of product and sales) fail utterly and repeatedly at another (public relations). It warms my heart to see a person with amazing abilities assume that he can also do other things equally well, and then implode.
This right here, without a doubt. Perhaps not the nicest sentiment in the world, but I've got to be honest with myself.
Cane wrote:Leave plastic soldiers out of this! This is about foam and legal notices =D
Wrong, this is about Money. As we all know the average American businessman will kick his grandmother in the teeth for $20, (assuming he knows he won't be caught).
We like good drama and the Foam Wars are highly amusing.
I personally enjoying watching a person with two amazing skill sets (production of product and sales) fail utterly and repeatedly at another (public relations). It warms my heart to see a person with amazing abilities assume that he can also do other things equally well, and then implode.
This right here, without a doubt. Perhaps not the nicest sentiment in the world, but I've got to be honest with myself.
It's not too late for him to stop being a poo flinging suing jerk guys, he can still be the mad guy from the YouTube vids who is really nice to the community! Right guys!?
Commander Endova wrote:I'm just surprised Romeo hasn't show up in this thread calling everyone 'clowns' again...
I thought he only reserved that for the judge?
Nope. I didn't know he called the judge that. Hilarious.
I'm referring to a tread posted by an Outrider Hobbies employee (pre-court case) that Romeo went into and completely derailed with flaming and insults directed at Outrider. This was some 4chan worthy butthurt since the best offense he could muster was "clowns" over and over again.
Commander Endova wrote:I'm just surprised Romeo hasn't show up in this thread calling everyone 'clowns' again...
I thought he only reserved that for the judge?
Nope. I didn't know he called the judge that. Hilarious.
I'm referring to a tread posted by an Outrider Hobbies employee that Romeo went into and completely derailed with flaming and insults directed at Outrider, most, if not all of which was the term "clown.'
Looks like Kinghammer isn't too far behind when it comes to trolling and insults either.
Commander Endova wrote:I'm just surprised Romeo hasn't show up in this thread calling everyone 'clowns' again...
I thought he only reserved that for the judge?
Nope. I didn't know he called the judge that. Hilarious.
I'm referring to a tread posted by an Outrider Hobbies employee that Romeo went into and completely derailed with flaming and insults directed at Outrider, most, if not all of which was the term "clown.'
Looks like Kinghammer isn't too far behind when it comes to trolling and insults either.
Good point, Alpharius, and hopefully we can avoid the nerd-rage this time... however, things like in the above link (manufacturing a false witness / email) bother me more than GW's practices, because at least with GW I can chalk it up to the legal arm of a giant company. With BF, it looks like a one-man vendetta against another... and frankly that gets my goat.
Especially with the above evidence, it makes me not want to deal with Battlefoam professionally at all...
Yea, I remember Polonius tried to share Romeo this attitude in another thread which was basically ignored even though he replied to others. Just not a good way to do business in a tight knit community like this.
Commander Endova wrote:I'm just surprised Romeo hasn't show up in this thread calling everyone 'clowns' again...
I thought he only reserved that for the judge?
Nope. I didn't know he called the judge that. Hilarious.
I'm referring to a tread posted by an Outrider Hobbies employee that Romeo went into and completely derailed with flaming and insults directed at Outrider, most, if not all of which was the term "clown.'
Looks like Kinghammer isn't too far behind when it comes to trolling and insults either.
Not trolling or throwing insults. I have know B. wade for over 10 years and I know for a fact what type of person he is.
Commander Endova wrote:I'm just surprised Romeo hasn't show up in this thread calling everyone 'clowns' again...
I thought he only reserved that for the judge?
Nope. I didn't know he called the judge that. Hilarious.
I'm referring to a tread posted by an Outrider Hobbies employee that Romeo went into and completely derailed with flaming and insults directed at Outrider, most, if not all of which was the term "clown.'
Looks like Kinghammer isn't too far behind when it comes to trolling and insults either.
Commander Endova wrote:I'm just surprised Romeo hasn't show up in this thread calling everyone 'clowns' again...
I thought he only reserved that for the judge?
Nope. I didn't know he called the judge that. Hilarious.
I'm referring to a tread posted by an Outrider Hobbies employee that Romeo went into and completely derailed with flaming and insults directed at Outrider, most, if not all of which was the term "clown.'
Looks like Kinghammer isn't too far behind when it comes to trolling and insults either.
Not trolling or throwing insults. I have know B. wade for over 10 years and I know for a fact what type of person he is.
Ive been in this thread for about 20 minutes, and im pretty sure what kind of person you are too.
Dont understand this... cease and desist of what?
. Definitely lost the chance of me becoming a customer, despite their superior product.
Considering that Ms Haynes challenges them to use Google is just a ludicrous thing for a company owner especially as patent offices don't use Google to catalogue items!
awful to work for!
