In your opinion(s?), what army or armies benefitted from the new rules to the point of being broken?

Does Telcis count as an army?

kenshin620 wrote:Does Telcis count as an army?

^What he said.

None of the armies are really broken as a whole(although Daemons still come very close), however, there are many models/units that will win you games without thought( Slann and Focused Rumination)

I wouldn't say that they're broken but the Dwarves really benefited from the new rules in 8th edition.

kenshin620 wrote:Does Telcis count as an army?

ya know, teclis is a lot like eldrad in 40k. he is a huge force multiplier, but at the end of the day his supporting cast is mostly subpar. i mean really, he is a t2 w3 model with no save that has to hang around with other t3 mediocre at best save elves. if you can get to him you can win, and in 8th ed its not so bad.

that said, i hate that pointy eared bastard. ive played against him a ton recently (practice for ard boyz) and while hes not unbeatable, he is pretty unfun to play against.

Eldrad is atleast really hard to kill

ser_hag wrote:ya know, teclis is a lot like eldrad in 40k. he is a huge force multiplier, but at the end of the day his supporting cast is mostly subpar. i mean really, he is a t2 w3 model with no save that has to hang around with other t3 mediocre at best save elves. if you can get to him you can win, and in 8th ed its not so bad.

that said, i hate that pointy eared bastard. ive played against him a ton recently (practice for ard boyz) and while hes not unbeatable, he is pretty unfun to play against.

I think the difference is that magic in 40K is nowhere near the scale of magic in WHFB. An overpowered caster in one game is not the same as an overpowered caster in the other. This is reflected in Teclis costing a load more points than Eldrad.

And yeah, single models that completely dominant games, that have to be killed for the other side to have a chance of winning are completely not fun - I agree with that.

Teclis is very strong this edition but all you need is 1 dwellers and hes good bye and probably half his bodyguard, which in turn basically wins you the game as hes going to be alot of points down.
And most people dont use a second caster as teclis hoggs all the dice so with him gone there is no magic to worry about.

I have gone 1st in both games i have played teclis and hes died 1st turn in both, if my opponent went 1st then i would probably be saying that hes way to strong and killed half my army lol.

Back to the question i think empire have benefitted the most, but not to the point of beng broken, mortars make any1 whos t3 very upset.

A lot of it is matchups- I love facing mortars with my t4, spaced-out (skirmishers), 5+ ward save dryads, at 12 points apiece!

I don't think any armies necessarily "benefited from the new rules to the point of being broken". I'm going to ignore Teclis, since he's a named character (which can be disallowed in events to put a stop to it if needed... not that I'm a fan of that since I need Throgg to make my new army legal ).

Daemons hurt me like crazy, but again, it's a bad matchup (all their attacks ignore my ward saves, since it's not usable against magic). Also, any magic-heavy army is now, imho, probably not broken- a low winds of magic roll for two conesecutive turns can make them extremely ineffective, and it's bound to happen. So you have to have more to your army than that!

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Does Telcis count as an army?

^What he said.

None of the armies are really broken as a whole(although Daemons still come very close), however, there are many models/units that will win you games without thought( Slann and Focused Rumination)

Wait what...

I just picked up daemons and they are no where near as stupid as they were in 8th.

No more blue scribes, tons of horrors, 20 power dice magic phases.

No more 4+ regen, 5+ ward stacking.

The main shock troops are only T3, with a 5+ ward, not exactly sturdy, removing from the back REALLY hurt bloodletters

Kairos is still really strong, but a tooled out slann is cheaper, and can be argued to be just as powerful...

The only really broken, cheesy combo is the -ld trinity. Masque, -2 Ld banner, with a properly equipped seeker can really make your opponent rage.


I honestly dont think daemons are even top tier anymore.

I put up a poll here on Dakka Dakka and most people were more afraid of lots of war machines as opposed to Teclis or a powerful caster. I think the armies that can mass war machines are more broken than Teclis or a powerful mage.

The only really broken, cheesy combo is the -ld trinity. Masque, -2 Ld banner, with a properly equipped seeker can really make your opponent rage.

Well, if a single model makes the entire HE army broken, then I'd say a single strategy should make the Demons broken as well.

djones520 wrote:Well, if a single model makes the entire HE army broken, then I'd say a single strategy should make the Demons broken as well.

Which is where it becomes nonsensical to talk about armies being broken. You can play all kinds of competitive and mediocre lists with High Elves and Daemons, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about their armies being broken.

If specific lists are dodgy, then we should talk about those specific lists being dodgy.

Exactly, there are broken builds, but no one army is so powerful it walks all over everyone regardless of build.

sebster wrote:
Which is where it becomes nonsensical to talk about armies being broken. You can play all kinds of competitive and mediocre lists with High Elves and Daemons, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about their armies being broken.

Well, I disagree with the "all kinds" when it comes to HE. Competitive lists = teclis, mediocre = no teclis. Demons do have multiple good lists tho

I'm willing to say that Teclis deserves banning and hydras cost about 100 points less than what they ought to in 8th (and HPAs are 65 points too cheap as well), but the only truly broken thing to me is purple sun. You know in some Australian and European tournaments they're banning all 15+ spells, in order to eliminate purple sun toolbaggery and the ability of a handful of dice to detonate a game beyond all reason? Seems drastic - and cruel to non-gamebreakers like Beast #6 - but I can get behind fixes like that, will be interesting to see how it plays out.

- Salvage

Depends on how you play your army and who you're fighting.

Overall though for a balanced, competitive tourney list...here are my top 5:

1. Warriors of Chaos (thrown the kitchen sink at these armies and still either get stomped or barely win)
2. High Elves (ASF + High Initiative = disgusting)
3. Empire (so many guns, so few enemies)
4. Dark Elves (every unit is dangerous...beware the witch elf deathstar)
5. Beasts of Chaos (yeah I know, but just went 0-4 this past week vs 3 different Beasts armies...freaking SICK units and army rules)

Kirasu wrote:Well, I disagree with the "all kinds" when it comes to HE. Competitive lists = teclis, mediocre = no teclis. Demons do have multiple good lists tho

Playing an Empire list with a load of mortars I tend to find the same, but plenty of others seem to think they're still very powerful. A lot of it is match-ups.

Boss_Salvage wrote:I'm willing to say that Teclis deserves banning and hydras cost about 100 points less than what they ought to in 8th (and HPAs are 65 points too cheap as well), but the only truly broken thing to me is purple sun. You know in some Australian and European tournaments they're banning all 15+ spells, in order to eliminate purple sun toolbaggery and the ability of a handful of dice to detonate a game beyond all reason? Seems drastic - and cruel to non-gamebreakers like Beast #6 - but I can get behind fixes like that, will be interesting to see how it plays out.

- Salvage

Thats why I find the euro tournament scene a bit silly.. Lets just ban everything we think is too powerful. Everytime you ban something you simply make something *else* better to take its place

Even if you ONLY allow 2 armies to be played (the rest being banned) something in those 2 armies will be better than the other.. Oh, well might as well ban that too. Purple sun is only amazing vs low Int armies. Against a lot of armies its not horribly effective AND it misfires 1/6th of the time anyway

Pit of shades can kill a whole unit.. but its not a #6 spell! uh oh gotta ban all #5 spells now too.. Too may people dont like their treemen dying, gotta ban lore of fire and metal.

Adapt, learn the local meta-game and build better lists. Success in tournaments is basically a result of skill, pairings and list building. Skill is relative, pairings are random but a good list is a good list

Just read another Euro report where they've simply banned all the upgraded versions of Death ...* I sorta agree that banning things isn't a great solution, though I'm also in favor of comped pairings, comp scores, blah blah, etc so the total WAAC maniacs can have at it while the fluffy bunnies have cuddle time in the lower rungs.

Annnnd here's my side comment that one of the reasons I play Fantasy and have abandoned 40k is that I like to think that almost any list can still win, or at least make a game of it and have fun. 8th I do think has changed this up somewhat, so that the List Building Phase is more than it was in 7th, but certainly not the 70% or so it is in 40k.

- Salvage

*Other restrictions at this tournament include no double rare, no triple special, no quadruple characters, no special characters, etc

Kirasu wrote:Thats why I find the euro tournament scene a bit silly.. Lets just ban everything we think is too powerful. Everytime you ban something you simply make something *else* better to take its place

That assumes a linear scale of power, which is a dubious assumption at best. What's much more common is a collection of abilities and combinations with a normal distribution. Banning the most powerful options won't stop something else becoming the most powerful option, but that thing will not be as far ahead of the next most powerful option.

Not that I'm much of a fan of banning stuff either, because the line between powerful and overpowered is too hard to draw. I'm not sure there'll ever be a particularly effective way to control competitive GW games.

I think only the banning of Characters can be justified. Banning anything else is pretty idiotic.

Purple sun is high risk and high reward spell as there has been Alot of debate about how much it can just blow up in yourface.
Also only like, Doc, woc, De, He, Empire and VC, Slann!! have access to death. i think beastmen can? but its just them odd few heros somewhere who are death wizards etc
I say that only these have access but i guess these are pretty much the most common armies :(
Its pretty ineffective against 5 armies. and Probably Super effective! against another 5
But oh well Thats for another thread.

I think HE's are just broken to extreme levels of Auto win!
Even if you manage to kill Teclis. None of us have yet been able to beat the Phoenix guard horde.
The best we came was in a 4 way battle and we all ganged up on them.. Lvl 4 Life wizard managed to keep them alive even with 3vs1 and they wiped out everything.

Kirasu wrote:

Boss_Salvage wrote:I'm willing to say that Teclis deserves banning and hydras cost about 100 points less than what they ought to in 8th (and HPAs are 65 points too cheap as well), but the only truly broken thing to me is purple sun. You know in some Australian and European tournaments they're banning all 15+ spells, in order to eliminate purple sun toolbaggery and the ability of a handful of dice to detonate a game beyond all reason? Seems drastic - and cruel to non-gamebreakers like Beast #6 - but I can get behind fixes like that, will be interesting to see how it plays out.

- Salvage

Thats why I find the euro tournament scene a bit silly.. Lets just ban everything we think is too powerful. Everytime you ban something you simply make something *else* better to take its place

Even if you ONLY allow 2 armies to be played (the rest being banned) something in those 2 armies will be better than the other.. Oh, well might as well ban that too. Purple sun is only amazing vs low Int armies. Against a lot of armies its not horribly effective AND it misfires 1/6th of the time anyway

Pit of shades can kill a whole unit.. but its not a #6 spell! uh oh gotta ban all #5 spells now too.. Too may people dont like their treemen dying, gotta ban lore of fire and metal.

Adapt, learn the local meta-game and build better lists. Success in tournaments is basically a result of skill, pairings and list building. Skill is relative, pairings are random but a good list is a good list

I will second this. I don't agree with banning anything. If it's in the army book it should be allowed. I believe you should figure out a way to beat the particular list/person who is consistently beating you, not ban a particular unit or list.

Seon wrote:I think only the banning of Characters can be justified. Banning anything else is pretty idiotic.

Purple sun is high risk and high reward spell as there has been Alot of debate about how much it can just blow up in yourface.
Also only like, Doc, woc, De, He, Empire and VC, Slann!! have access to death. i think beastmen can? but its just them odd few heros somewhere who are death wizards etc
I say that only these have access but i guess these are pretty much the most common armies :(
Its pretty ineffective against 5 armies. and Probably Super effective! against another 5
But oh well Thats for another thread.

I think HE's are just broken to extreme levels of Auto win!
Even if you manage to kill Teclis. None of us have yet been able to beat the Phoenix guard horde.
The best we came was in a 4 way battle and we all ganged up on them.. Lvl 4 Life wizard managed to keep them alive even with 3vs1 and they wiped out everything.

Most people i know take lore of like as its got amazing buffs and a nice damage spell, i just cant see how any1 would struggle with pheonix guard 1 dwellers =half dead so no more horde. It might be because i play empire but i cant see any problem with elfs, tougness 3 is a joke with mortars each hit kills enough to force a panic test. When im using empire i have the worst time with dwarfs because they just outshoot me and never miss. And for some reason chaos my opponent nearly always brings 2 hellcannons which really hurts and then smashes me with knights.

Anyway i think high elfs are far from broken, but the death spell is pretty bad and i choose to not use it as if you get IF on the powerd up version on the 1st turn against most armies its pretty devastating.

I'm still amazed that people consider HE's to be broken. Like bennyboy6189 mentions, that T3 and low armor is a very large detriment to the army, and asides from Magic spells (let's not include Teclis into this particular discussion since he's an obvious considerable force multiplier) they've got a real hard time dealing with anything big. The main thing they've got going for them now the ASF re-rolls in combat. Otherwise, they're usually taking a lot of hits back from enemy units and mostly hitting back with S3 attacks (excepting the elite infantry, of course).

Seon wrote:None of us have yet been able to beat the Phoenix guard horde.

I've beat it with a single HPA, who went on to devour a 25 spearelf block as well as all of his characters.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I believe you should figure out a way to beat the particular list/person who is consistently beating you, not ban a particular unit or list.

One of the recent Podhammers has some commentary on the recent move to ban all 15+ spells, and the gist is that while slamming out these gigantic spells and removing units from the table all at once is hilarious and good times in your garage, but has little place in a tournament version of WHFB as it has nothing to do with tactics, strategy or list building beyond writing "Death" next to your wizard, adding some insurance that he'll get "purple head" and then maxing out dice for the IF. This does not prove you are a better player nor can it be fought back against.

Another idea that was kicked around on that episode is to simply not allow 15+ spells to go IF. Upside is that they can be stopped, downside is that the accompanying miscast, while certainly worth the risk with uber-spells like purple sun and gateway, is often a nice bone to throw your opponent. (Teclis and every slann in the game be damned.)

- Salvage

HE are far from broken. At Ard boyz against a teclis list I won. Pheonix guard are far from unbeatable, one Str 4 attack each oh nos!!!!
They are also squishy as hell. most have a 5+ save tops, with only T3, I have blocks of 50 slaves for 100 points take out 250+ points of spear elves.

Also imo purple sun pales compared to The dwellers below, Most models have I4+ except for very few armies. Where tons of models are Str 3ish base.
Personally I have no problem with the super spells, in a few dozen 8th games, even against Teclis and slanns, i have yet to see this entire unit wiped off the board phenomenon.

There are lots of things that can pop an entire unit that people were fine with before 8th ed.

I have wiped 1000 point units out with the dreaded 13th (slann, temple guard, with old blood in it).
Dropped a Str 10 WLC shot right into the middle of a big unit of chaos knights and killed them all.
Rolled an 11 for gateway strength

However people only seem to have a problem with this in 8th edition now that everyone has access to it.

I agree but if you roll perfectly and its 1st turn where most the opponent is in there delpoyment zone the purple sun can kill 3/4 of a dwarf/lizardmen army, and with most others still a large proportion. And force them all to do panic tests etc.
Combined with the -leadership spells from death its really effective.

In my opinion its to powerful even with all the chances it misfires or rolls low and it even stays in play if you choose to.

If they only made it move 1 or even 2 times the artillery dice that would make it better i think or more friendly.

I want to see how these people deploy so a single purple sun on turn one can wipe out 3/4 of their army.

With the pie plate you might get lucky and go over an entire unit and maybe a war machine or 2, but thats pushing it.

Whats going through their head, oh look he is taking death, let me deploy my TG, slann unit directly in front of his wizards unit!

Also even with 6 dice theres only a slim chance of it going off with IF, Are these people not taking a dispel scroll to prevent the turn one cheese? (against teclis its different i know). If they power scroll they are risking a miscast on a spell that could do nothing if they roll bad. Sure every now and then it might take out a whole unit, but theres a good chance it will do nothing, and there is that wizard, sitting on a miscast, who just used 6 dice and an expensive arcane item that did nothing.

I really think these super spells losing players the game on turn one is less cheese, and more people being stupid with deployment or not taking a dispel scroll.

It is true that in the games ive played they have deployed badly but isnt it possible for a sorcerer on a mount could fly 20inches or even on a horse move 16 then line up down there battle line?

I think the scenario is more like mid to late game, one player has clearly out-played the other player and deserves the big win that's coming his way, when the other dude hops his low level death wizard out of her bunker, goes all-in with the jacked up purple sun, goes IF and sends it across the enemy army, netting gigantic points thanks to losing characters and war machines, as well as huge handfuls of units thanks to the sheer number of dice rolled. Suddenly the game becomes purely about freak luck and rolling dice, instead of pushing the tactical shreds that remain in 8th edition.

The idea is that this kind of "OMG that really happened!!!" is great fun in the garage that GeeDub has written the rules for (look at the terrain rules and tell me that's written for tournament play), while it has no place in more sober tournament gaming. I haven't heard too many arguments that talked about turn 1 aggro suns, though you could definitely fly a caster up and toss that sun across war machine concentrations with several armies for an early game boost. But that's not what the issue is.

FWIW dwellers scares me more than the sun in theory, but I've never faced a Life wizard that wasn't level 1 or 2

- Salvage

bennyboy6189 wrote:It is true that in the games ive played they have deployed badly but isnt it possible for a sorcerer on a mount could fly 20inches or even on a horse move 16 then line up down there battle line?

They could possibly hit more that way yes, however they could not get to the flank of the army with that movement, they would end about 4-5 inches right in front of the battle line assuming both armies lined up right on the 12 inch in line.

They would also be dead next turn from shooting or they would get charged.

Im not saying its not possible to do some damage, however there are quite a few factors.

1. they would have to roll the spell, or have an item that lets them pick spells.
2. The would need to hit the casting value, or use a power scroll to make it IF, they cant use a power scroll if they have a pick spell arcane item.
3. They need to roll decently on the art dice. There is about a 50% chance the spell wont do a thing because they roll a misfire, 2, or 4 (assuming the arent on top of your army).
4. If they dont cast it with IF, they have to have it not be scrolled, OR simply dispelled via a roll on dispell dice.

Also if they are a level 2 suicide wizard they will have to roll a 23 on 6 dice. Statistically, they will not meet the value, as an average roll on 6 dice is a 21. They will have to roll above average. If somehow they dont meet the casting roll and they tried the run up and cast the spell, they are dead next turn.

Sure every now and then the stars align and they do some major damage, however more often then not it flops and they end up losing a 200+ point wizard and they didnt do anything. People tend to complain about when it does do amazing, and forget that for 3 games straight it didnt kill a single model.

Like i said, in a few dozen games of 8th played, not to mention all the others i have watched i have yet to see purple sun do the damage that has been stated over and over on the boards. Dwellers below is the super spell im afraid of tbh.

I think 1 of 2 things are happening.

1) people are theorycrafting the nuts purple sun roll and blowing it out of proportion. This rarely happens at all.
2) Someone did pull off the nuts purple sun and complained about it, so people jump on the hate the spell bandwagon.


To add on to bosses thing.

I can see that happening, but why arent there multiple combats going on at that stage in the game. Also if oyu know the wizard is in his bunker why havent you locked it into combat so he cant move out. Also how is the battleline so perfect that he can cast the spell, hitting all of your units and none of his.

Im really thinking these super spells changing the game are pure dumb luck or extreme tactical oversights/fails.

I totally agree with you the chances are real slim but its happened to me once lvl 4 wizard on elven steed moves up 18 got IF rolled 10 and did alot of damage, took 1 wound from the miscast and got back to 12 power dice.
Then he used his lvl 2 wizard and caused abit more pain using shadows which enabled him to switch his lord with his lvl 2 so now he was safe from being charged.

I know that is a perfect magic phase and its probably never going to happen again but it did and we called it there and just had a second game lol.

Also alot of the new missions start abit closer than 24inches away.

As to the Phoenix guard problem. Not everyone has access to Dwellers below. I play Wood elves and Dark elves. I can take lore of life on a lvl 4 spellweaver and i did get Dwellers below before and killed over 20 PG And teclis in 1 shot. Then the remaining 30ish killed my wizard and slowly munched through everything i had.

DE i can't just purple sun them. 2+ ward against Lore of fire. metal or death. Because of caradryan, who can also kill hydras :p but i dont own any ^_^

they may be T3 with 5+ save But they have 2+ ward to magic and 4+ ward to everything else. Pretty much always getting a re-roll to hit and Str 4 is pretty good.
They are just really hard to deal with when they are also Always toughness 7 and bringing d6+1 back to life each turn :(
The problem is facing An entire army of Just phoenix guard, Teclis and 25% Sea guard. Otherwise i would agree, They are just T3 5+ save... Damn PG :(

Thats why in my view i see them as an insanely strong army. But obviously armies which i don't play will be able to handle them easier which explains why others may disagree with what i say.

Kirasu wrote:

Boss_Salvage wrote:I'm willing to say that Teclis deserves banning and hydras cost about 100 points less than what they ought to in 8th (and HPAs are 65 points too cheap as well), but the only truly broken thing to me is purple sun. You know in some Australian and European tournaments they're banning all 15+ spells, in order to eliminate purple sun toolbaggery and the ability of a handful of dice to detonate a game beyond all reason? Seems drastic - and cruel to non-gamebreakers like Beast #6 - but I can get behind fixes like that, will be interesting to see how it plays out.

- Salvage

Thats why I find the euro tournament scene a bit silly.. Lets just ban everything we think is too powerful. Everytime you ban something you simply make something *else* better to take its place

Even if you ONLY allow 2 armies to be played (the rest being banned) something in those 2 armies will be better than the other.. Oh, well might as well ban that too. Purple sun is only amazing vs low Int armies. Against a lot of armies its not horribly effective AND it misfires 1/6th of the time anyway

Pit of shades can kill a whole unit.. but its not a #6 spell! uh oh gotta ban all #5 spells now too.. Too may people dont like their treemen dying, gotta ban lore of fire and metal.

Adapt, learn the local meta-game and build better lists. Success in tournaments is basically a result of skill, pairings and list building. Skill is relative, pairings are random but a good list is a good list

You know what else is cool? Put Korhil in the unit of PG and they are Stubborn.

HE are not unbeatable. Teclis is still subject to possible bad PD magic rolls and everyone is still T3.

My Skaven blasted and shredded a solid HE list today which included a Tyrion spearhead and a Swordmaster deathstar. My 2k-2.5k Skaven list is not a WAAC army and I'd throw it at ANY list from ANY player. You just gotta know what to hit and where, there is no clear broken army.

bd1085 wrote:HE are not unbeatable. Teclis is still subject to possible bad PD magic rolls and everyone is still T3.

The teclis having a low dice magic phase is kind of moot.

Since even if he rolls low he gets an addition 1D3 dice from his ability, and 1d3 dice from the banner of sorcery (which the army will be taking if they run teclis).

So even if he rolls say 4 dice, (double 2's) then gains another 3 from the 2d3, your looking at 7 power dice to your 2 dispell dice...

It really sucks, especially if he rolls snake eyes, then channels, then rolls 6 bonus dice. So your looking at 1 dispell dice to his 9 power dice (this has happened to me).

ShivanAngel wrote:

bd1085 wrote:HE are not unbeatable. Teclis is still subject to possible bad PD magic rolls and everyone is still T3.

The teclis having a low dice magic phase is kind of moot.

Since even if he rolls low he gets an addition 1D3 dice from his ability, and 1d3 dice from the banner of sorcery (which the army will be taking if they run teclis).

So even if he rolls say 4 dice, (double 2's) then gains another 3 from the 2d3, your looking at 7 power dice to your 2 dispell dice...

It really sucks, especially if he rolls snake eyes, then channels, then rolls 6 bonus dice. So your looking at 1 dispell dice to his 9 power dice (this has happened to me).

On the bright side.. atleast his auto-IR ability isnt as annoying when you only have 1 dice to his 9 :p

ShivanAngel wrote:

bd1085 wrote:HE are not unbeatable. Teclis is still subject to possible bad PD magic rolls and everyone is still T3.

The teclis having a low dice magic phase is kind of moot.

Since even if he rolls low he gets an addition 1D3 dice from his ability, and 1d3 dice from the banner of sorcery (which the army will be taking if they run teclis).

So even if he rolls say 4 dice, (double 2's) then gains another 3 from the 2d3, your looking at 7 power dice to your 2 dispell dice...

It really sucks, especially if he rolls snake eyes, then channels, then rolls 6 bonus dice. So your looking at 1 dispell dice to his 9 power dice (this has happened to me).

Yeah forgot about his ability but I faced off against that banner yesterday too. Only one magic phase did I get owned with his 6 dice to my 1. He was using Life and Light and throwing around +4 toughness and all that craziness. Still, I rocked his world with all my war machines, weapons, and solid magic I could throw (Scorch 4tw!). There's only so much a T3, 5+ Armor army can take.

How was he using light and life?

I think he means that there was another sorc in the army besides teclis.

I love how everyone is saying how overpowered warmcaines are now. To me they are just to fickled and a waste of points. I normally run four cannons and two mortars and they rarely ever earn their points back. Then I get monkey stomped in the face by my oppenants infnatry which are cheaper then mine. Too much risk in warmachines plus posion attacks take them out quickly. When I play against lizzies with my empire he monkey stomps me all over the place, stupid skinks. Anyways I think HE are the most broken. Tecils is a unholy beast who owns the magic phase everyturn. Plus swordmasters and white lions or more beast then they were before. Ive taken 21 swordmasters with a lord in the unit and I slaughters hords of dudes like its nothing. due to haveing 7 in the front 24 attacks, with rerolls. 16 hit then with rerolls 5 more hit for a total of 21 hits 17.5 of those will wound with no saves to night goblins or say skaven. Plus Ive also had some great experiance with lion chariots hiting in the flanks while the more elite troops deal with the hords. HE=broken now.

Thanks to all who posted replies in response to my question. I was kinda testing the waters, so to speak, with regards to what people thought about Lizardmen. Thankfully, although Slann have been mentioned a ton, the Lizardmen as an army haven't, which I take as a good sign. Hopefully, people won't cry "cheese" when my Lizards hit the table.

Well, one way to be pretty sure of that is to not take a slann, gus_papas . You can take a skink priest with cloak of feathers, diadem of power, level 2, and have decent anti-magic. Then put the points you would have run in a slann into some more hard-hitting units. It'd be a different take on them, since basically Everyone and their uncle will include a slann now!

RiTides wrote:Well, one way to be pretty sure of that is to not take a slann, gus_papas . You can take a skink priest with cloak of feathers, diadem of power, level 2, and have decent anti-magic. Then put the points you would have run in a slann into some more hard-hitting units. It'd be a different take on them, since basically Everyone and their uncle will include a slann now!

This.

No army is stupidly broken in 8th currently, there are annoying things like Teclis, fully kited out Slann, and insane Gunlines but for the most part every army at least has a chance to be competitive (assuming equal generals).

bd1085 wrote:You just gotta know what to hit and where, there is no clear broken army.

The thing to remember is that we've just seen a reboot with the new system. There's not been a chance for people to establish the most powerful armies yet, nor have we seen new army books written with the new lists.

7th was pretty balanced for a while there as well, but then the Vampire Counts book came out.

Wow... Anyway it really pains me to hear all this whining about spells and die rolls in a game that retains a random factor out of sheer realism. No matter the plan things can and will go wrong and instead of blaming spells just realise that it is also due to many other factors... I love high elves and decided now was a great time to start playing them and yes out of sheer love for fluff I will be running Teclis but it sucks to know how this new player will be sneered at for playing the army he loved since he opened a white dwarf for the first time 10 years ago. I will run him in tournaments and it's wonderful to know I may be comped for playing what I love... I miss Mordheim... this foolishness never reared its ugly head there.

Honestly I think it's Warriors of Chaos. Tzeentch Warriors are ridiculous, and the champions killing characters for extra victory points rule really favors chaos... because their champions are better than most characters.

That or Slann... or maybe even Tomb Kings (WUT?) maxed out on casters with the new % rules... then firing a million arrow shots.


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Honestly I think it's Warriors of Chaos. Tzeentch Warriors are ridiculous, and the champions killing characters for extra victory points rule really favors chaos... because their champions are better than most characters.

That or Slann... or maybe even Tomb Kings (WUT?) maxed out on casters with the new % rules... then firing a million arrow shots. Lore of Life is broken, too.

maybe even Tomb Kings (WUT?) maxed out on casters with the new % rules... then firing a million arrow shots.

S3 arrows that hit on 5s are pretty scary. 100 arrows kill a whole 5 saurus!

nieto666 wrote:I love how everyone is saying how overpowered warmcaines are now. To me they are just to fickled and a waste of points. I normally run four cannons and two mortars and they rarely ever earn their points back. Then I get monkey stomped in the face by my oppenants infnatry which are cheaper then mine. Too much risk in warmachines plus posion attacks take them out quickly. When I play against lizzies with my empire he monkey stomps me all over the place, stupid skinks. Anyways I think HE are the most broken. Tecils is a unholy beast who owns the magic phase everyturn. Plus swordmasters and white lions or more beast then they were before. Ive taken 21 swordmasters with a lord in the unit and I slaughters hords of dudes like its nothing. due to haveing 7 in the front 24 attacks, with rerolls. 16 hit then with rerolls 5 more hit for a total of 21 hits 17.5 of those will wound with no saves to night goblins or say skaven. Plus Ive also had some great experiance with lion chariots hiting in the flanks while the more elite troops deal with the hords. HE=broken now.

High elfs have to waste 25% on the worst core in the game , you get bows or spears or elfs with both lol.And then nearly 25% on 1 mage to stand a chance, they really are not broken.
Yes swordmasters rock but if you have 2 mortars and cant kill some swordmasters you need to prioritize, throw in an engineer if you have to, 1 hit and your gunna wipe out half a unit.

yeah unless the there are more then 20 swordmasters in the unit they are dead to magic/shooting before they get halfway across the board.

With the severity of magic buffs in 8th, any unit can become elite. You may build your list to be buff heavy. In this case, core footsloggers can become boken. +4T. Occumsrazor, W10/I10, etc.

Throw one of these buffs on an already elite unit, and then I believe you have a legit 8th ed deathstar.

bennyboy6189 wrote:

nieto666 wrote:I love how everyone is saying how overpowered warmcaines are now. To me they are just to fickled and a waste of points. I normally run four cannons and two mortars and they rarely ever earn their points back. Then I get monkey stomped in the face by my oppenants infnatry which are cheaper then mine. Too much risk in warmachines plus posion attacks take them out quickly. When I play against lizzies with my empire he monkey stomps me all over the place, stupid skinks. Anyways I think HE are the most broken. Tecils is a unholy beast who owns the magic phase everyturn. Plus swordmasters and white lions or more beast then they were before. Ive taken 21 swordmasters with a lord in the unit and I slaughters hords of dudes like its nothing. due to haveing 7 in the front 24 attacks, with rerolls. 16 hit then with rerolls 5 more hit for a total of 21 hits 17.5 of those will wound with no saves to night goblins or say skaven. Plus Ive also had some great experiance with lion chariots hiting in the flanks while the more elite troops deal with the hords. HE=broken now.

High elfs have to waste 25% on the worst core in the game , you get bows or spears or elfs with both lol.And then nearly 25% on 1 mage to stand a chance, they really are not broken.
Yes swordmasters rock but if you have 2 mortars and cant kill some swordmasters you need to prioritize, throw in an engineer if you have to, 1 hit and your gunna wipe out half a unit.

Spearelves fighting in 4 ranks with ASF and usually re-rolling to hit? They're not the worst core in the game, they're the worst infantry in the High Elf list, that's a big difference.

For there points nearly every other army has better core even empire 5points for the same tougness and strength who cares about the always strike first as we will still get all our attacks back as we will more than double you in unit size.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

bennyboy6189 wrote:

nieto666 wrote:I love how everyone is saying how overpowered warmcaines are now. To me they are just to fickled and a waste of points. I normally run four cannons and two mortars and they rarely ever earn their points back. Then I get monkey stomped in the face by my oppenants infnatry which are cheaper then mine. Too much risk in warmachines plus posion attacks take them out quickly. When I play against lizzies with my empire he monkey stomps me all over the place, stupid skinks. Anyways I think HE are the most broken. Tecils is a unholy beast who owns the magic phase everyturn. Plus swordmasters and white lions or more beast then they were before. Ive taken 21 swordmasters with a lord in the unit and I slaughters hords of dudes like its nothing. due to haveing 7 in the front 24 attacks, with rerolls. 16 hit then with rerolls 5 more hit for a total of 21 hits 17.5 of those will wound with no saves to night goblins or say skaven. Plus Ive also had some great experiance with lion chariots hiting in the flanks while the more elite troops deal with the hords. HE=broken now.

High elfs have to waste 25% on the worst core in the game , you get bows or spears or elfs with both lol.And then nearly 25% on 1 mage to stand a chance, they really are not broken.
Yes swordmasters rock but if you have 2 mortars and cant kill some swordmasters you need to prioritize, throw in an engineer if you have to, 1 hit and your gunna wipe out half a unit.

Spearelves fighting in 4 ranks with ASF and usually re-rolling to hit? They're not the worst core in the game, they're the worst infantry in the High Elf list, that's a big difference.

And the points it costs me to get those 4 ranks? A skaven players gets twice as many Clan Rats.

djones520 wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

bennyboy6189 wrote:

nieto666 wrote:I love how everyone is saying how overpowered warmcaines are now. To me they are just to fickled and a waste of points. I normally run four cannons and two mortars and they rarely ever earn their points back. Then I get monkey stomped in the face by my oppenants infnatry which are cheaper then mine. Too much risk in warmachines plus posion attacks take them out quickly. When I play against lizzies with my empire he monkey stomps me all over the place, stupid skinks. Anyways I think HE are the most broken. Tecils is a unholy beast who owns the magic phase everyturn. Plus swordmasters and white lions or more beast then they were before. Ive taken 21 swordmasters with a lord in the unit and I slaughters hords of dudes like its nothing. due to haveing 7 in the front 24 attacks, with rerolls. 16 hit then with rerolls 5 more hit for a total of 21 hits 17.5 of those will wound with no saves to night goblins or say skaven. Plus Ive also had some great experiance with lion chariots hiting in the flanks while the more elite troops deal with the hords. HE=broken now.

High elfs have to waste 25% on the worst core in the game , you get bows or spears or elfs with both lol.And then nearly 25% on 1 mage to stand a chance, they really are not broken.
Yes swordmasters rock but if you have 2 mortars and cant kill some swordmasters you need to prioritize, throw in an engineer if you have to, 1 hit and your gunna wipe out half a unit.

Spearelves fighting in 4 ranks with ASF and usually re-rolling to hit? They're not the worst core in the game, they're the worst infantry in the High Elf list, that's a big difference.

And the points it costs me to get those 4 ranks? A skaven players gets twice as many Clan Rats.

Delicious Warp Fire thrower

Boss_Salvage wrote:Just read another Euro report where they've simply banned all the upgraded versions of Death ...*
[...]
*Other restrictions at this tournament include no double rare, no triple special, no quadruple characters, no special characters, etc

Oh wow... that is... just... wow. I think I've been made speechless again o.o

Melissia wrote:

Boss_Salvage wrote:Just read another Euro report where they've simply banned all the upgraded versions of Death ...*
[...]
*Other restrictions at this tournament include no double rare, no triple special, no quadruple characters, no special characters, etc

Oh wow... that is... just... wow. I think I've been made speechless again o.o

I agree, that is just bogus.

If you ban a special character i can see that fluff wise it would make sence but in game terms isnt that character just fighting in his army?

Purple sun is so overrated. it is good.. yeh i guess.. but your risking IF miscast killing your own men and a 1/6 chance of killing your own men with the spell!!

i dont think any level of magic, not even teclis ruins the game because magic is very powerful.. so why shouldn't they implement thta in the game? magic has risks and so does anything else. purple sun in particular is extrmley risky.

HE are far from broken.. a pheonix horde 5/4+ only goes so far... they might strike first and get to ignore some armour and attack in three ranks(as a horde).. yeh but they dont against shooting..

Theres is something to kill everything. Id love to see teclis stop a Cygor from eating his head. or maybe they hide there mage at the back.. again beasts number 6 spell will sort that out. theres no broken army, because every strength has a weakness, and if your oponent is a WAAC player, then exploit that weakness.

And for all those bloody people who dont allow you to use characters.. seriously are you going to deny one of the main points of the game? the glory of heros..

The problem with characters is some of them are just stupid powerful for the cost. While other army books characters are just complete garbage.

For example, Teclis is INSANE for 475 points. Daemon special characters (especially their hero level) are also extremely undercosted for what they do... 90 points for 5 WS 7, I7 S4 armor piercing attacks, with 3+ ward and an ability that can drop a units leadership or movement by D3... Thats insane.

Not allowing special characters just evens the playing field quite a bit.

ShivanAngel wrote:The problem with characters is some of them are just stupid powerful for the cost. While other army books characters are just complete garbage.

For example, Teclis is INSANE for 475 points. Daemon special characters (especially their hero level) are also extremely undercosted for what they do... 90 points for 5 WS 7, I7 S4 armor piercing attacks, with 3+ ward and an ability that can drop a units leadership or movement by D3... Thats insane.

Not allowing special characters just evens the playing field quite a bit.

I wouldn't say that it evens the playing field. I'd say more along the lines of redistributing power, that being, there is just something else that is more powerful than everyone else instead of the previous thing what was more powerful.

Also, I believe there is a way to counter anything in the game. You just have to figure out how.

Yes there is a way to counter everything in the game, thats not the issue.

The issue lies where you have to build a good portion of your list to counter one specific part of the metagame. That is what isnt balanced. If you are having to build your list a specific way IN CASE a specific special character is there that isnt balanced.

Also another example, and there isnt a counter to this.

Masque drops your leadership by three, then you take another -2 to your leadership from the banner of daemonic legions. So your sitting at -5. Then you get forced to take a panic test on what is probably a 1 to possible a 5 ( AT BEST). How is that balanced... There is NOTHING you can do about either of those things, they cant be stopped.

When you can say ok i need to build a list to have some decent magic defense, something to deal with war machines, a way to deal a fighty lord if they bring one. etc....

When you have to do all the above, then go, well the might bring teclis soooo.... That hurts the balance of the game. When your spending points to counter ONE specific hero.

There are lots of combos like that yes that might work against 1 unit and then the masque will probably die in the following turn, but you have to pay for all these combos and i dont see them as overpowered. Same with teclis its really not that hard to kill him or make him flee along with his unit.

Last game i played my opponent had 2 hellcannons and had the tzeentch Pandemonium spell in place and some other item -1 leadership any1 in line of site(i think) and was making me take panic tests in nearly every phase possible, it wasnt fun.

ShivanAngel wrote:
Also another example, and there isnt a counter to this.

Masque drops your leadership by three, then you take another -2 to your leadership from the banner of daemonic legions. So your sitting at -5. Then you get forced to take a panic test on what is probably a 1 to possible a 5 ( AT BEST). How is that balanced... There is NOTHING you can do about either of those things, they cant be stopped.

I haven't been able to play a game yet as I'm deployed, but with this scenario, would you be able to magic or shoot them to death so they don't send you packing? I'm not doubting that it's a pretty nasty combo, but I'm curious as to why you wouldn't avoid them if you could? Also, I've never played against that combo before, so I'm not familiar with the mechanics of how it works.

First banner of daemonic legion is -2 leadership to anything within 12 inches of it. So its bunkered for a while

Second the masques can drop a unit within 12 inches leadership by D3, combined that can be up to -5 Leadership. Sure she ahs to be within 12 inches, but a 3+ ward can be tough to chew through.

Then there are multiple ways to exploit that.

Charge them with one of your terror causers
Make them take a panic test
There is a slaanesh spell that makes a model pass a ld test or suffer D6 wounds with no armor saves
There is another one that the unit takes D6 strength 5 hits, then they take a leadership test, if they fail they take another D6 Str5 hits, repeat until they pass (I have killed entire units with this combo, testing on Ld 2-3 is not fun).
There is a Daemon ability that forces then target to take a leadership test or attack his unit instead of the daemon

Its cheesy as all hell tbh.

Yeah its kinda cheesy and if you roll well it can potentially make a unit flee but the masque on her owns really not that hard unless your a ranged unit or warmachine so after doing that combo once your unlikely to use it again.

Also if you charge with the terror user that would have to be in your following turn after youve set the masque up to be 12inches away?

I would say thoreks just as broke tougness 10 and can deploy completely hid so you cant get to him except by maybe some skirmishers with scout which will die 1st turn from wrath and ruin d3 units 2d6 strength 4 hits no line of sight and you cant really stop it except with that elf item which makes it harder =).

I have no opinion, since I haven't played since 6th (thinking of finally returning to my skavens though) but I just had to ask:

DarkAngelHopeful, what country do you come from, I can't remember that I have seen that flag anywhere?

I think it's a bit early to say if any one army qualifies. Some are certainly stronger than others. Of the armies I've seen in action Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven, WoC and Empire certainly are strong. I have not been impressed with High Elves without Teclis. VC aren't the powerhouse they were but can still be competitive. There are also several armies I just have not faced yet (demons, dwarves, brets, beastmen, and Ogres off the top of my head).

Vargtass wrote:I have no opinion, since I haven't played since 6th (thinking of finally returning to my skavens though) but I just had to ask:

DarkAngelHopeful, what country do you come from, I can't remember that I have seen that flag anywhere?

I'm from the US. However, the flag you see is the Afghanistan Flag as I am currently there.

ShivanAngel wrote:Charge them with one of your terror causers
Make them take a panic test
There is a slaanesh spell that makes a model pass a ld test or suffer D6 wounds with no armor saves
There is another one that the unit takes D6 strength 5 hits, then they take a leadership test, if they fail they take another D6 Str5 hits, repeat until they pass (I have killed entire units with this combo, testing on Ld 2-3 is not fun).
There is a Daemon ability that forces then target to take a leadership test or attack his unit instead of the daemon

Its cheesy as all hell tbh.

It does rely on getting that unit within 12" of a unit that isn't immune to psychology, which is something that can't be guaranteed. It is a goofy combination, like a lot of other stacked combos, and I don't like it for that reason. But it isn't overpowered, as there's a considerable gamble on the part of the user as well, he could sink those points into a unit that's lined up against a unit immune to psychology, at which point it does nothing. And it isn't as though breaking a unit actually destroys them, they can reform and rejoin the combat.


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thelordoflife wrote:And for all those bloody people who dont allow you to use characters.. seriously are you going to deny one of the main points of the game? the glory of heros..

While characters and heroes are a core of the game, for a lot of people it isn't about watching Games Workshops heroes tromp all over the battlefield. If nothing else it makes the Warhammer world feel very small, with the same handful of heroes turning up to fight in every single skirmish. I can't imagine how many frequent flier miles Teclis has earned by now, with all the battles he must have fought in.

If enough people in a playing group feel that way, who are you to say they're doing it wrong?

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

Vargtass wrote:I have no opinion, since I haven't played since 6th (thinking of finally returning to my skavens though) but I just had to ask:

DarkAngelHopeful, what country do you come from, I can't remember that I have seen that flag anywhere?

I'm from the US. However, the flag you see is the Afghanistan Flag as I am currently there.

Awesome, if you meet any swedes, tell em I said hi!

Sebster, where yeh i agree that some characters are OP my opinion is as follows.

Who are you to tell people who like to play fluffy with characters are not aloowed to use them?
The people that deny people anything Characters,purple sun, and 15+ should just suck it up
come on, stop being such babies. nothing in the game is TOO powerful, teclis still isnt that great and hes like 1/4 of your army.
if you shoot the hell out of teclis it will cumble, that daemon thing with the LD modifiers is limited to 12"
Everyone is discussing "IF"'s and "but" and i say.. theres a million scenarios people can go.. ill do this.. so ill counter it with this..
but the truth is every army has a counter for everything. and stop with the situational crap
how did that daemon unit manage to single out one unit to make em flee where all the units around the fleeing one will counter charge that unit and nock it sensless. you payed all those points to make one unit run thats just going to rally next time before your unit gets pounded?

Nothing is overpowered.

I don't know. I don't think I can get on board with the "nothing is overpowered" crowd. I'm still happy to play against any kind of build, but I would definitely be interested in events that shake things up. I think this becomes more important later in the game edition when cookie-cutter lists start to fall into place, and everything's going to look the same without a restriction or two.

As to the effect of comp, it's true that no system will result in a perfectly level playing field. The argument for it, though is this:

We're going to have a race. You can choose to get any kind of bicycle, or you can pick a motorcycle.

Now we'll have a comped race. You can't choose the motorcycle, but you can pick any of the bicycles. Some are definitely better than others, and maybe there's even a "best", but none are as far ahead of any others as the motorcycle was.

Having said all this, I should note that my typical play area has no comp guidelines. Some players "self-comp" but many don't.

thelordoflife wrote:Sebster, where yeh i agree that some characters are OP my opinion is as follows.

Did you read my post? I made a passing reference to power level at best, noting that there are other reasons special characters are not liked by a lot of players. They make the Warhammer world feel very small, as suddenly most battles have one or more named characters. It becomes silly when Teclis turns up to fight in every other High Elf fight.

Who are you to tell people who like to play fluffy with characters are not aloowed to use them?

I'm not telling anyone they can't use Teclis in their games. Go crazy fighting battle after battle of Teclis vs Mannfred, as both great warriors turn up to every possible skirmish ever fought by the High Elves or the Vampire Counts. What I am saying is there are plenty of reasons for people to not want characters, and power balance is only one. If that sentiment is common enough in a group, they should be free to say 'no special characters, thanks'.

The same is true of anything else in the game. I don't think magic is as overpowered as many have claimed and am happy to play with it, but there is no denying that a bit of good dice on a magic roll can swing a whole game. Some people prefer that a game is decided more by maneouvre and the proper use of regular troops than one or two big spells, and if enough people in a group feel that way it only makes sense that they restrict options that they feel make the game poorer.

If you disagree and want the powerful spells and special characters, you're free to convince that group to allow them back in, to join another group or form your own group. What makes no sense is to tell them they're doing it wrong, because they're not playing the way you like to play.

Nothing is overpowered.

Well that's just nonsense. Of course some options are going to be more powerful than others. Certain combinations are going to combine effects to be even more overpowered. There's a conversation to be had about the best ways to address that issue, but denying that anything can ever be overpowered is just being silly.

I also agree that it's good to shake things up, but where I used to game (irish WFB tournament scene) heavy comp is the norm, not the exception, and I found it pretty irritating. As far as I'm aware, no events in Ireland allow special characters. I find that to be pretty annoying, because certain builds (trogg and his trolls are a prime example) are unplayable without them. And the troll army is not OP, and quite fluffy. It's also bad because if you're getting into the hobby, you initially probably think that the rules in the books, are, you know, the rules. I had built a large unit of black orcs lead by grimgor ironhide back in 7th, when I was looking at getting back to playing. The idea was a nice big immune to pscyh block to deal with some of the nasties out there. But then I found out grimgor was banned, an I'd just spent all that money for a unit I wouldn't be able to use. It is especially frustrating for those of us on a budget.
That said, comped events can be fun. But I think that they should never be "the norm".

sebster wrote:Well that's just nonsense. Of course some options are going to be more powerful than others. Certain combinations are going to combine effects to be even more overpowered. There's a conversation to be had about the best ways to address that issue, but denying that anything can ever be overpowered is just being silly.

I still dont think anything is overpowered there are models that are cheap for how effective they are and there are combos that can be very powerful but nothing is unbeatable in 8th edition, magic is powerful but its very random you may only get a couple of PD every magic phase.

Teclis is meant to be overpowered, not really you can get a normal mage with book hoeth whos nearly as good - a few rules which you have to pay for when you buy teclis, and the mage is less likely to die from dwellers.

Yeah a normal mage with book of hoeth is pretty much as good as teclis...

Except for loremaster
Choosing lores before each fight
D3 bonus casting/dispell dice
Ignoring the first miscast
A dispell scroll that can destroy a spell (in addition to being able to take a second dispell scroll)

The archmage has, 1 more BS, WS, T, and Str....

Yup all that stuff is barely worth the 115 more points....

I thought it was determined that Teclis has to pick his lore when the list is made like other mages due to the brb trumping army selection rules.

Having a lvl 4 mage is nearly garunteed to get the big spell you want, so loremaster is meh,Banner of sorcerey can easily be added for the point cost difference, and the main reason teclis always dies is from 1 dwellers at least the mage option has a slight better chance to survivie.

As i stated in the previous post some characters are cheap for what you get but you can tool up normal characters for cheaper and are nearly as good.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I thought it was determined that Teclis has to pick his lore when the list is made like other mages due to the brb trumping army selection rules.

MEh its being argued both ways....

Still, you cant tell me all that other crap is only worth 115 points....

Loremaster generally cost about 50 points depending on army book,
Immune to first miscast on every turn is easily worth 50 (daemon equivilant is first miscast ONLY and is 25)
d3 power dice is worth at least 50
The dispell scroll that can destroy a spell is about 50.
I wont count his little sword that wound on a 2+ since oyu dont want him in combat, buts thats easily another 50 also.

If it turns out he can pick his spells before every fight, like most people do with him. I would easily say thats worth about 250-300 points.

Also since banner of sorcery STACKS with tecli's little rule, you cant say just take banner of sorcery instead. Being a level 4 you have a 66 % chance of getting the big spell, thats not a garuntee. So loremaster is pretty damn good.

Im simply stating that no build of HE level 4 mage can come close to matching the power of that hero.

Some characters power can be matched by a tooled out lord. However some characters (teclis, Skulltaker, Masque, Kairos, and many others) cant even be approached.

ShivanAngel wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I thought it was determined that Teclis has to pick his lore when the list is made like other mages due to the brb trumping army selection rules.

MEh its being argued both ways....

Still, you cant tell me all that other crap is only worth 115 points....

Loremaster generally cost about 50 points depending on army book,
Immune to first miscast on every turn is easily worth 50 (daemon equivilant is first miscast ONLY and is 25)
d3 power dice is worth at least 50
The dispell scroll that can destroy a spell is about 50.
I wont count his little sword that wound on a 2+ since oyu dont want him in combat, buts thats easily another 50 also.

If it turns out he can pick his spells before every fight, like most people do with him. I would easily say thats worth about 250-300 points.

Also since banner of sorcery STACKS with tecli's little rule, you cant say just take banner of sorcery instead. Being a level 4 you have a 66 % chance of getting the big spell, thats not a garuntee. So loremaster is pretty damn good.

Im simply stating that no build of HE level 4 mage can come close to matching the power of that hero.

Some characters power can be matched by a tooled out lord. However some characters (teclis, Skulltaker, Masque, Kairos, and many others) cant even be approached.

Well, I agree that Teclis is powerful and maybe not as expensive as he could be, but if you've never lost to the High Elves, including Teclis, there appears to be some balance built into the army somewhere, right?

Also, a lvl 4 mage has a 72% chance of rolling any doubles on 4D6. Thus, if you roll a double you keep one of the spells and you can choose any other. So, a lvl 4 mage really has a decent shot of getting the big spell.

Well its mainly because high elfs are not that good lol (in my opinion) take a 2k point game teclis 25%,crap core 25%, pheonix gaurd 25% with banner of sorcerey and then another 25% for warmachine hunters/maybe a hero or a few swordmasters. Its not exactly a scary army to face.

Im not saying he doesnt have a weakness, he most definately does (which my lists in these tournies had ways to exploit, they had to , or i would have lost).

However like in the above example, having to build your army list or a certain character to counter A SINGLE MODEL, is not balanced.

Thats all i am really trying to get across.

There was a time that you would try to keep at least 8" between your troops and the nearest hill or heap of rocks when playing against high elves...

...I guess nothing ever really changes

bennyboy6189 wrote:I still dont think anything is overpowered there are models that are cheap for how effective they are and there are combos that can be very powerful but nothing is unbeatable in 8th edition

Being cheap for how effective a unit is is what people mean by 'overpowered'.

And again, there are lots of reasons to ban particular units that aren't just to do with game balance. Hell, I run Empire so if I expect I'm going to face Teclis I'd happily just shoot the guy with a load of Long Rifles. This is absolutely not about me worrying about how I might face Teclis.

But games with extremely powerful special characters generally revolve around killing that one particular guy before he does too much damage. This can be a fun variation to regular games for a lot of people, for a lot of other people it's a distraction from the meat and veg of the core game. I can understand if an area's meta included lots of powerful characters like Teclis that people might say get sick of it and organise a tournament that refocussed on the core of the game.

sebster wrote:

bennyboy6189 wrote:I still dont think anything is overpowered there are models that are cheap for how effective they are and there are combos that can be very powerful but nothing is unbeatable in 8th edition

Being cheap for how effective a unit is is what people mean by 'overpowered'.

And again, there are lots of reasons to ban particular units that aren't just to do with game balance. Hell, I run Empire so if I expect I'm going to face Teclis I'd happily just shoot the guy with a load of Long Rifles. This is absolutely not about me worrying about how I might face Teclis.

But games with extremely powerful special characters generally revolve around killing that one particular guy before he does too much damage. This can be a fun variation to regular games for a lot of people, for a lot of other people it's a distraction from the meat and veg of the core game. I can understand if an area's meta included lots of powerful characters like Teclis that people might say get sick of it and organise a tournament that refocussed on the core of the game.

If you spend a whole turn killing a praticular special character then you will probably do so, with empire or dwarfs if i concentrate everything at the unit teclis is in hes dead and so is his unit.
And with the price of teclis/bodyguard its pretty much game over, if you kill 1 of these special characters that are overpowered(and your opponent relys on this character to win) he will probably just admit defeat 1st turn as its happened to me alot,or they want a rematch.

I think 8th edition is fairly balanced, well at least alot more than 7th.

Being the old veteran that I am, I say that it's perfectly normal to restrict named characters and magic items, and maybe even magic lores at tournaments... it's how I know tournaments to be!
I have witnessed the HeroHammer era, and I tell you, all you warhammerites, that you still talk about the same stuff as 12 years ago!
However, 12 years ago, Set Limits were broadly accepted by tournament players. And rightly so. Special Characters have always been more like an appendix of the army book than something from it's core. They were always in the back of the book, all previous chapters dealing with troops, war machines and normal characters. At the end came the special characters and 6th edition even ruled: "get your opponents agreement before you field a special character" in the opening of the special characters chapter.
Over the years, and it was a special aim of 6th edition, GW has attempted to un-herohammer warhammer... They did this with tournament limits in 5th edition (which were also very popular outside tournaments, because it reduced power-gaming.... a little) and with the new force organisation and magic (item) rules in 6th edition.
In fact, named characters weren't even the main problem, it was the enormous liberty one had with magic items, characters and flying monsters... hehe, unnamed characters could be 10 times as dangerous as teclis, provided you gave 'em the right equipment (auto-kill sword, to-hit-roll bonus enchanted item, spell eater shield, flying monster)

However, suddenly they forget all about their effort to un-herohammer the game, and make named characters an integral part of the army-list! in a contemporary army book you get the special characters before the normal character and troop options... and they're Part of the LIst, rather than an Appendix... and you don't need permission to use them! What do these people want? damn GW, make up your mind!

In my opinion, named characters are nice as painting/modelling projects and the occassional special scenario or even mini-campaign... They should never be a regular component of your army.

Unfortunately, GW's target demographic has become younger: little boys who want the strongest of the strong etc. I remember being young too, and wanting the Emperor on the Griffon, because it was apparently the strongest unit of the empire army, and the tank, unstoppable! Oh and Thyrus Gorman with the Staff of Volans! that would teach my brother's teclis!
And GW remembers too... It knows what we are like when we are imaginative 13 year old boys who want a wargame... Heroes riding unspeakable monsters facing off against powerful wizards casting spells of mass destruction!

The fact that they include a prince on griffon in their new starter set is a tell-tale sign...

I don't have to be a nostalgic for herohammer anymore... GW is also going "retro"!

All of this hurts to look at. Special characters are a part of the game, as are lores and the like and there is nothing wrong with people using either. Don't like characters? Hate certain lores? Then there is this lovely game called Hordes you could look into. I'll say to these folk as I say to all people who enjoy whine with cheese: Go play chess. It's far more acceptable socially, rules are constant and you can find players everywhere and anywhere you go. Also it can be very cost effective... But watch out for queens you may find them broken ;p

happydude wrote:But watch out for queens you may find them broken ;p

Hahaha funniest thing ive heard in a while.

My vote goes for Skaven - being able to take huge units of 2 point slaves, 10 deep or more, as well as power scroll grey seers with dreaded 13th. Throw in a hellpit or two, with a warp lightning cannon or two - ouch.

Or scouting multiple units of poisoned sling armed gutter runners, pop storm banner if you go second and watch a gunline army dissapear.

The problem I have with the army is that there were no negatives really that affect the army and everything that is strong in 8th (templates, hordes, Leadership, steadfast) directly benefits Skaven so that they are incredibly hard to do anything against.

bennyboy6189 wrote:If you spend a whole turn killing a praticular special character then you will probably do so, with empire or dwarfs if i concentrate everything at the unit teclis is in hes dead and so is his unit.
And with the price of teclis/bodyguard its pretty much game over, if you kill 1 of these special characters that are overpowered(and your opponent relys on this character to win) he will probably just admit defeat 1st turn as its happened to me alot,or they want a rematch.

Dude, seriously, are you screwing with me or something? Why did you keep replying to me if you're not reading my posts?

As I said in my post... yes, there are ways to kill Teclis. I myself have no real fear of the guy because I often take a number of long rifles and just shoot him, no matter the size of the unit he hides in. But that isn't the point.

A game of fantasy should be about balancing a dozen or more competing priorities, tarpitting his best units while ensuring your best units don't suffer the same, protecting the flanks and the rear, delaying and disrupting the enemy advance vs advancing on the enemy as quickly as possible while maintaining good order. In a game with a really powerful character, all those things collapse down to one - kill the character and you'll likely win, fail to kill him and you'll likely lose. If a group is looking for the complexity of the first environment but keep getting stuck in the second, it makes sense to adjust list selection to discourage the crazy super powers.

I think 8th edition is fairly balanced, well at least alot more than 7th.

This is true at this stage. 7th was also pretty balanced for a time, but then Vampire Counts and some other books screwed things up.


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Herohammernostalgia wrote:
Being the old veteran that I am, I say that it's perfectly normal to restrict named characters and magic items, and maybe even magic lores at tournaments... it's how I know tournaments to be!
I have witnessed the HeroHammer era, and I tell you, all you warhammerites, that you still talk about the same stuff as 12 years ago!

True, I remember the time when proper list building was about getting your expenditure on heroes as close to 50% of your total list as possible, and then spending the rest of your points on crap that didn't matter (unless you had a really broken option in your list like 50 point repeater bolt throwers, then you'd max that out as well ). Characters themselves were generally more expensive, but what really mattered was that a properly tooled up character was almost impossible to beat with regular troops.

Things are trending back towards herohammer, somewhat, but we're still a long way away from the old days.


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happydude wrote:All of this hurts to look at. Special characters are a part of the game, as are lores and the like and there is nothing wrong with people using either. Don't like characters? Hate certain lores? Then there is this lovely game called Hordes you could look into. I'll say to these folk as I say to all people who enjoy whine with cheese: Go play chess. It's far more acceptable socially, rules are constant and you can find players everywhere and anywhere you go. Also it can be very cost effective... But watch out for queens you may find them broken ;p

I just don't get this attitude, it basically boils down to 'it's in the rules and therefore it's fine and nothing anyone can do can make the game better for them'. It's ridiculous, and I can't even begin to understand how it begins to form.

Look, WHFB is a game with many different elements, and a diverse player base that wants a whole lot of different things from the game. If a group wants to emphasise one part of the game over another, they shouldn't just feel free but encouraged to adjust the rules. If a playing group doesn't like magic at all they should feel free to ban it, it's their group and who are you to say otherwise? If they think it's silly that the Emperor Karl Franz keeps turning up to every single skirmish, why shouldn't they say 'no special characters'.

It's their group. They get to play the way they want to play. Complaining about people in another part of the country changing the rules to play the way they want to play isn't just whining, it's whining about something that doesn't even affect you. It's ridiculous.

Im not screwing with you lmao, its just you say hes overpowered but then you say hes no threat and he is easy to kill? contradicting tbh. I still think 8th is pretty balanced aswell as random and back to the topic i dont think any army is broken. Special characters are part of the game if its in the book you can use it is how my flgs does it.

No YOU misread into it bud. See the game is actually balanced, as long as you can use your tactics and strengths to overwhelm. Whining=Avg to beginner skilled gamer. Anyway you should try this awesome game called chess... Teclis=broken lmfao the entire HE army fluff practically consists of magic so yeah their mages and mage heroes are balls out. This is not a flame attempt fyi just trying to point out that this whole "broken" thing is illogical this early in the edition. Hey maybe GW will hear everyones crying and ban Teclis and the skaven lol. Also those tournaments that cut heroes and lores are for people who can't cope, and I'll refrain from those and play in the adult tournaments thanks. Just my two cents ;p

bennyboy6189 wrote:Im not screwing with you lmao, its just you say hes overpowered but then you say hes no threat and he is easy to kill? contradicting tbh. I still think 8th is pretty balanced aswell as random and back to the topic i dont think any army is broken. Special characters are part of the game if its in the book you can use it is how my flgs does it.

Okay, you're reading so please read it carefully this time. Teclis and other powerful special characters can cause a tremendous amount of destruction, but there are plenty of ways to kill him. As such, in games featuring him or certain other special characters capable of equal destruction become largely focused around that character - kill him quickly and win, fail to kill him and lose.

For a lot of players, the game of 'hunt the special character' is not as interesting as a game of Warhammer based around maneouvering infantry, cavalry and other elements into the best positions to overrun the enemy. So they put a ban on these characters so they can continue playing the core game.

And yes, 'if it's in the book it's in the game' may be how your flgs does it. That's fine, and for pick up and play games against whoever turns up it's a pretty good way of doing things. But your flgs isn't the world, is doesn't represent all playing groups. Other groups have a structure in place, and a group of like-minded players, that allows them to adjust some rules to produce a playing environment that's more enjoyable for all them. Telling them the way they enjoy playing the game is wrong is a really silly way to go about talking about the hobby.


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happydude wrote:No YOU misread into it bud. See the game is actually balanced, as long as you can use your tactics and strengths to overwhelm. Whining=Avg to beginner skilled gamer. Anyway you should try this awesome game called chess... Teclis=broken lmfao the entire HE army fluff practically consists of magic so yeah their mages and mage heroes are balls out. This is not a flame attempt fyi just trying to point out that this whole "broken" thing is illogical this early in the edition. Hey maybe GW will hear everyones crying and ban Teclis and the skaven lol. Also those tournaments that cut heroes and lores are for people who can't cope, and I'll refrain from those and play in the adult tournaments thanks. Just my two cents ;p

Again*, the point isn't about whether a character is too powerful. Yes, Teclis and other characters cost more for their points, and generally come with noticeable disadvantages. The point is that if characters like that hit the field the game becomes predominantly about killing Teclis, the actual game becomes a lot less important.

It's a really inane, geek machismo mindset that causes you to think people remove stuff from tournaments because 'they can't cope'. If I sit down and special scenario that I wrote with a mate, we might give one side more points than the other, change the deployment areas, and change the 'win/loss' conditions. We are changing the rules, but we aren't changing them because we can't cope with regular games, we're changing them because the variant rules are more fun for us. And that's the only consideration possible when people set about building tournament rules - what's going to be most fun for our playing group?

If that playing group has found that extremely random, high risk high reward options like power 25 spells decided games more often than clever play, then they're well within their rights to remove those spells from the game. The idea that they must be weak for wanting to change rules is a really unfortunate mindset to have.



*and again, and again.. seriously what is going on? It isn't as though my point is a tough one to understand, why are you guys unable to process it at all?

Moreover: in a tournament/club situation where you face an opponent who plays the same race as you do, what will bore/teach you more: fighting the exact copy of your own army (i.e. PG-Teclis deathstar), or something entirely different?

In 7th edition did there flgs stop selling kairos unless it was for modeling purposes? In a tournament as soon as you get towards the final stages most have similar armies, because the players are competant enough to pick what units work.

If you are a walk in gamer, and you go to one of these stores where they have "no 25 spells, no special characters"
but the guy that walked into the store just moved to that town, and he really likes teclis fluff etc and he goes in for a game 1 day and they go, no you cant use that character becos hes OP, isnt that unfair on the guy that just wants a game? anyone who denies spells and characters just because they think "omg this might stand a chance against me if he uses that" should go play a different game, this game is about enjoying your army and if your denied everything so it becomes about who has lots of spears and ranks.. how is it any different from playing a game of chess?

characters and awsome spells make the game fun and unpredictable. thats why they are great.

thelordoflife wrote:If you are a walk in gamer, and you go to one of these stores where they have "no 25 spells, no special characters"
but the guy that walked into the store just moved to that town, and he really likes teclis fluff etc and he goes in for a game 1 day and they go, no you cant use that character becos hes OP, isnt that unfair on the guy that just wants a game? anyone who denies spells and characters just because they think "omg this might stand a chance against me if he uses that" should go play a different game, this game is about enjoying your army and if your denied everything so it becomes about who has lots of spears and ranks.. how is it any different from playing a game of chess?

characters and awsome spells make the game fun and unpredictable. thats why they are great.

QFT

Guys like sebster make me chuckle a tad. Somehow common sense=machismo to him. Warhammer has rules... Don't like them? Go play chess( Sweet conversion opportunities! ). With your friends in a casual nobody cares what you do but to exclude lores and characters from tournaments is childish and for those who can't handle the game in it's entirety much like how pee wee hockey contains no hits and fighting is banned all the way up to AAA. When they are fit/old enough to cope with hockey in it's entirety then they go play big boy hockey . I agree with you totally as far as casual but tournaments were meant to be played RaW. Your friend from the great white north, Happydude.

You dont look so happy in that Pic xD

Magic the Gathering also has rules, however cards are constantly being banned and restricted. Its for the health of the metagame.

What it all boils down to is that warhammer is a GAME. If something is generally not fun or enjoyable for a group of people there is no reason they shouldnt be allowed to change the rules up somewhat. You might love special characters and your gaming group plays with them all the time, if thats fun for you fine.

At my FLGS special characters are not allowed in the tournies or leagues that they run. As a group we have decided we enjoy the game more without them. Bashing someone for playing the game the way they want to is childish and narcissistic. Who cares if they dont play it the way you do. If i come and play a game in your store and special characters are allowed, no problem, thats how your group decides to play. However if you come into a store down here dont expect to find a game using them.

Actually the only tournament down here you can find that allows them is ard boyz.

Overall I feel without special characters the game is more balanced and more enjoyable. YMMV.

But ofcourse do you understand where im coming from that someone might move to your area and expect to be greeted warmly and be able to have a nice game to the sudden shock of you lot going, "oh but you cant use your favourite characters here they are to OP" thats not really very fair is it? and as you said it is a game so why is everyone QQ'ing about Special characters and good magic?
Ill tell you why, its because the people who want to ban things want to make the game boring, you think that OP spells and OP characters pose a challenge to you and you dont sound like a person who wants to play a game for a challenge, you want to play because you know you can win, and thats no fun for the guy whose not allowed to use things because your all scared someone might have something shiney to play with.
And really.. if you cant understand why spells arent OP then look at it this way, a lvl 4 wants to cast a 25 spell yeh, hes going to undoubtedly roll 5d6 at least, the chances of it not working or a misscast are very high hes got as likley chance to do himself damage as he hs to cause you damage. the only "OP" character ive seen in this game is teclis and even he is T2 str2 you wanna know how to beat that unit of 50 pheonix guard in 2 turns? The dwellers below..at str 2 hes absolutley shafted and the guard are Str 3 so again , shafted. and you might say.. yeh but they have a 2+ ward against spells.. no they dont.. because it doesnt allow saves of any kind. now if you say to me in response "yeh well then thats op" no it isnt because its cast on 21+ and you can just dispel it. all about risks.. and thats what it should be.. not *i poke you with stick.. you take wound.. we both got 3 ranks.. and you poke me with shiney sword killing one. it draw."

I can see where your coming from, and again your using blanket statements and pushing that your way of playing is the best.

I honestly feel that no special characters make the game more balanced, which in turn makes it more fun. However like I said you might find the game more enjoyable with them.

It would probably be a shock for some people to be told there list isnt allowed when they moved, however, if they want to play the need to abide by the house rules of that store, not play, or find somewhere else to play.

Also not allowing special characters isnt doing that just so I can win. I enjoy a challenge just as much as a next person, but there is a difference between a challenge and having almost no chance at winning. I find the metagame is more stable and more balanced when they arent allowed. Some of them just bring some crazy special abilities or special rules into the game that require a very specialized unit to counter. So you either bring that unit (which will gimp you against other opponents) or just let the character walk all over you.

I dont think any of the spells are overpowered, they all have drawbacks, liek insane casting values, misfires, or they could be a dud.

Your criticizing people for playing the game the way they want to.

Unfortunantly it is pretty universally agreed upon different armies are not all balanced. Games workshop tries, but it is just not possible to balance all the armies to be on the same level. Also once the books are published its really hard to go back and change things. If something in an MMORPG is imbalanced they patch it, with a tabletop game like warhammer, they cant do that so they just go, well lets not make the same mistake again.

The house rules and tourny rules banning certain characters and putting restrictions is an attempt to balance the game so that someone bringing army X which is agreed upon to be one of the best, doesnt just stomp all over someone bringing army Y, which people agree to need some help.

Im not saying my way is better, im just saying your way is selfish to other players

thelordoflife wrote:Im not saying my way is better, im just saying your way is selfish to other players

I agree my way may be selfish to powergamers and WAAC players, but meh i play the game for fun. Im not going to sit there and let someone trounce all over me because they brought a WAAC list to my all comers list.

I have no problem playing a WAAC list game every now and then, sometimes they are fun. However calling me selfish because I dont want to spend my time playing a game I wont enjoy is very narcissistic.

If someone came up to me when im casually gaming and asked for a game I would ask to see there list. If it included someone like Teclis or Archaon or another ectremely powerful character and i wasnt in the mood for a WAAC game I would kindly ask them to change there list. If they refused I simply wouldnt play. If my not wanting to spend my time amusing your power list is selfish, then by god im one selfish person.

So if someone has a well balanced army but it includes teclis you still wont play? thats not WAAC at all its just including a character that he likes..

If someone said to me. do you want a game? and eh setup a 50 pheonix guard block with teclis in.. well i personally would be delighted but i can see how you would get bored of those WAAC sheep player.

but surley you would let someone play with a well balanced list that includes an "op" character?

It would depend on the rest of the list, but i personally hate playing against Teclis. Its honestly not a fun game for me.

most other special characters I really dont mind. WAAC lists, yeah i might ask you to change it up or find another opponent, but i wont not play a game just because there is a special character in it. (unless its Teclis).

Teclis is a stupid crutch in my opinion, and what sucks for me is I have to challenge so he will get safely sent to the back of the unit he's in. My only real option is sending in a suicide unit to quickly wipe him out and then get slowly broken down by pheonix guard. Sure he can die to goblins, but it takes time to get to him. And all the while he'll be slinging spells that I don't even get a chance to dispell. Nothing is more annoying than not being able to at least feel like your giving up a fight against his magic. On top of this people combine him with the Banner of sorcery so the elves have like 10 dice while I have 3.

As you can probably tell I don't like to play against him. Am I going to tell some one that they can't use them? No. Will I hate playing against them? A loud and resounding yes. If I wanted to play games like that I would play lizards with life slann and 6 salamanders.

If you challenge and he declines you choose who goes to the back i think, so you can still split your attacks on him at the front.( i may have read this wrong please correct me if i have)

I don't agree with all of the Teclis hate. I think he's a cool character with great fluff. I think if Teclis is banned then no one should be able to use the 8 lores of battle magic since he taught them to the Empire. lol

What about daemons, since, you know, they are the reason magic is in existence.

I'm not a total fluff bunny, but I thought the warp/immaterium/land of the demons just existed, and thus magic was also a natural element of the warhammer universe that just existed independent of anything. I was under the impression that demons existed only because of human emotions and other races emotions. I was not under the impression that demons are the reason magic exist.

However, since everyone is banning everything these days, sure, let's ban demons too lol.

EDIT: For the record, I think anyone should play however they want, to include banning special characters, magic, etc. if that's what they feel will help them enjoy the game. I am in the camp of not banning anything though. Also, it makes international tournament play a little harder if Oz is doing one thing, the US another, and UK and Europe another (and any other county that plays I didn't include).

Magic was created when the other choas gods turned on Tzeencth, He was shattered into thousands of pieces and each on of those pieces became a spell.

Cool, I wonder if that's the same way psychic powers started in 40k? Never the less, I still think there is way too much Teclis hatred. It's like the flavor of the month. Right now it's Teclis and HE. It used to be Demons in 7th from what I understand.

I love the childish counters worded carefully towards this. mtg changes rules yes... and if the RaW gets changed then so be it as it is now universal. Making changes to tournaments is for people who can't handle the RaW as I have said. Go play casual in any way you desire it's great like that BUT tournaments should have universal rules sets. Someone new enters your store and is a great player who loves characters and employs heavy magic tactics is now having his fave aspects removed from tournament play at his new because resident kiddie coven deemed them too harsh? GROW UP! You and the rest of the players are simply too, well, simple to handle the game in it's entirety. Casual=do what you will, tournament=RaW. I'm glad you do not head up any sports leagues or divisions or else Monday night two hand touch would become a reality. Whats next? No magic items costing more than 25pts? no models pre 7th? Secret members only handshakes to make each match "official"?


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Read HERO'S gaming blog and learn THE REAL DIFFERENCE about WAAC and a smart tourney player. And my attitude is far from masochistic. It just seems to be the ramblings of those who should play more chess and less warhammer.


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Watch out for those queens though;p

I love how you completely disregard the fact that most of us play this game for fun.

If playing only WAAC lists is fun for you then go for it.

However berating and insulting people for wanting to play more casually and not have to worry about WAAC lists in the tourny is there choice.

I play the game for fun, if an aspect of the game is less fun then I will avoid it.

I can handle the RaW just fine. Im not to simple to handle the entirety of the game. I advanced in Ard' Boyz which is WAAC and honestly tournaments like that are fun every now and then, are not something I want to do every single time.

Metagame changes depending on the region someone is in. If said player is so great, he should have no problem making a list within the confines of the tournament rules and wiping the floor with everyone. If anyone loves a special character so much they NEED them in their list to enjoy the game i have a feeling its less of likeing the character, and more wanting to ride on his shoulders to wins.

Also your only retort has been play more chess and less warhammer kids rwar rawr im a powergamer grrrrr.

This isnt helped by the fact games workshop cant write globally balanced army books to save their life.

Also it was narcissistic not masochistic, big difference, google them. I would explain the difference but im to simple.

No my retort is that tournaments should be played by universal rules like every other game out there. Again people of your mindset cannot read entire paragraphs and hang onto few words and attempt to berate others. tournaments should be played by universal rules, casual in it's entirety is anyones choice. HERO'S gaming blog is the answer to your pathetic WAAC argument and never once have I said I was better at the game than anyone here. Try reading the entire post but much like your gaming you left out whatever you deemed a inconvenience lol. I'll let you all have the last word I have better things to do than argue with the ignorant whiners that plague this thread. Also in my first post I said I was not flaming anyone although it's amazing how you children can get so uppity over the truth. Please do us all a favor and seclude yourselves within your rules groups so that the infection of ignorance does not spread further. p.s. I wuv you ;p Honestly no hate

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in on this topic after reading it over several days. I think the whole argument boils down to the mixing of 2 different mindsets. On one side is the competitive game player and on the other is the casual/hobbyist. These 2 sides will never agree because their pleasure from the game/hobby come from different aspects. I understand fully the need for universal rules for tournaments from a competitive gaming aspect so that no matter where you go to play, you know what to expect. I also understand the love of the hobby side. Modelling and painting your own things as the main point then playing a fun game with them. As the hobbyist doesn't play the game as a serious competition, the more powerful combinations and characters sometimes seem less fun to play against and when the community as a whole is mostly hobbyists, the decision to ban or limit things is best for them. I have this argument with my own friends as they are the more competitive type and don't understand why people would want tournaments with comp as part of the score or even painting as part of the over all score to win a tournament. As neither side has more merit than the other, the only thing you can really do is always check with the store or gaming group before joining to see if they fit your style of play. Unfortunately, as is human nature, these arguments turn into personal bashes on each other's play style and attempts to degrade or insult other's opinions. In the end, if GW wanted to turn this into a serious competitive game they'd institute a central ruling body to organize their tournaments and have more concrete rules set that doesn't require so many faqs to clarify what's in the rulebook.


As for the topic of the thread, right now there are no "broken" armies as there were in 7th, just currently powerful strategies. I am sure after a few more months of playing and trying new things a new power will rise in warhammer. I don't think it will be one army book, rather a build that can be made over several. With the focus more on infantry than powerful characters/monsters like in 7th, more armies have the ability to be competitive.

I don't think it needs to be either or. Tournament organizers are free to set up their events however they want. It would be boring if every tournament played straight out of the book, no modifications Warhammer.

The beauty of multiple events (especially so in the UK, to some extent elsewhere) is that you can attend the event that caters to your preferences. Like no holds barred? Go to 'Ard Boyz. Like super fluffy? Pick the one that is comped to the teeth.

Not enough events in your area that are your style? If there's enough like minded individuals, put one together yourself. Start small, and grow it.

I just don't see why so many people feel there's not room for both approaches when it comes to tournament play.


Edit: For some reason, typo'd 'Ard Boyz to t'Ard boyz.

@the last two posts: Well said. Thing is I am casual an enjoy painting scores(NOT COMP).

thelordoflife wrote:If you are a walk in gamer, and you go to one of these stores where they have "no 25 spells, no special characters"
but the guy that walked into the store just moved to that town, and he really likes teclis fluff etc and he goes in for a game 1 day and they go, no you cant use that character becos hes OP, isnt that unfair on the guy that just wants a game?

A flgs that banned people from people using certain characters or spells in pick up and play games would be wrong of course... what right does that store have to tell players what they can use in their own games. Which is quite different to me, personally, deciding whether or not I'd like to play you in a game, that's always up to each player.

And again (and again, and again and I'm guessing a whole lot more times after this) special characters aren't just banned because they're overpowered. In most cases they're a points sink that leaves your army too dependant on one unit.

anyone who denies spells and characters just because they think "omg this might stand a chance against me if he uses that" should go play a different game, this game is about enjoying your army and if your denied everything so it becomes about who has lots of spears and ranks.. how is it any different from playing a game of chess?

characters and awsome spells make the game fun and unpredictable. thats why they are great.

That's awesome that you really like special characters and powerful spells. You should feel free to use them in all your games. But it is foolish to think your fun is the only fun, and that other people are doing it wrong for playing the way they want to play.


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happydude wrote:Guys like sebster make me chuckle a tad. Somehow common sense=machismo to him. Warhammer has rules...

Okay, I get that you aren't very good at reading other people's posts, but shouldn't you at least be reading your own?

"Whining=Avg to beginner skilled gamer"
"Hey maybe GW will hear everyones crying"
"Also those tournaments that cut heroes and lores are for people who can't cope"
"I'll refrain from those and play in the adult tournaments"

Those aren't appeals to common sense, those are statements that your way is the tough manly way, and that people who don't want to play your way just aren't man enough.

Don't like them? Go play chess( Sweet conversion opportunities! ).

Because this hobby consists of a tactical game and special characters? Therefore if a person didn't want special characters then the only thing left is a tactical game. Don't talk nonsense.

With your friends in a casual nobody cares what you do but to exclude lores and characters from tournaments is childish and for those who can't handle the game in it's entirety much like how pee wee hockey contains no hits and fighting is banned all the way up to AAA. When they are fit/old enough cope with hockey in it's entirety then they go play big boy hockey . I agree with you totally as far as casual but tournaments were meant to be played RaW. Your friend from the great white north, Happydude.

Tournaments aren't 'meant' to be played any way but how the organisers set them up. Don't like the format, don't play or set up your own tournament.

The point here is not about special characters, personally I don't much care, the point is the assumption going through this thread that they way people like to play is the best way there could ever be, and anyone who looks to play some other way is doing it wrong.


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ShivanAngel wrote:Magic the Gathering also has rules, however cards are constantly being banned and restricted. Its for the health of the metagame.

What it all boils down to is that warhammer is a GAME. If something is generally not fun or enjoyable for a group of people there is no reason they shouldnt be allowed to change the rules up somewhat. You might love special characters and your gaming group plays with them all the time, if thats fun for you fine.

I read your post there, and it reads as such a simple, obvious thing, and I've been saying exactly the same things myself, and I'm just left wondering why people can't get it. I suspect it's because they really don't want to get it.


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thelordoflife wrote:Im not saying my way is better, im just saying your way is selfish to other players

People play how they want to play. It's a nonsense to insist anyone play the game anyway other than how they want to.

If someone offered me a game and I said no because they take forever to set up and duck outside after each turn for a smoke... that's my right. It's no different if someone offered me a game against their Teclis army and I said no, because I'd just played a very similar army and didn't want to play the hunt the Teclis game again.

Seriously, there is nothing selfish in playing the games you want to play.


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happydude wrote:Go play casual in any way you desire it's great like that BUT tournaments should have universal rules sets.

The only true tournaments are the happydude tournaments all else is heresy!

Seriously dude, stop telling other people how to play. You sound ridiculous.

Having wandered heinously off-topic, this thread is ripe to be locked... Or we could get back on topic because I for one am genuinely curious about powerful armies/units. I'm not so interested in discussion of tournaments and unneccessary attitudes.

Basically i would say high elfs are somewhere in the bottom half and if you throw in teclis, they move up a few spots.

All round i think its the most balanced it has been since i started playing warhammer, and im really liking most the new rules.

The High Elf ASF special rule got a slight/proper nerfing with the new rules for cc casualties, before, they could just kill off the first rank before they were struck and potentially be invulnerable in cc! Glad for all other races that has now come to an end

Having not played 8th edition, but being well acquainted with the older editions, the "step up", fighting in initiative order and "2 ranks strike" rules are actually a major overhaul and have a big influence on how effective some armies are... I figure that Chaos Warriors, with their small numbers come of worse than before as they will suffer more hits from the unit they engage... previously, when they charged or continued combat a second turn- striking first because higher initiative- they could extinguish an opponent's opportunity to do some damage to them, now they face the full number of attacks of the first rank and 1 for every model in the second. for small, elte armies that's gotta hurt.

Cavalry is also in more trouble than before, charging at unengaged units: they won't auto-strike first after a charge anymore and they will be on the receiving end of the full number of possible attacks in return... That's hell for those Bretonnians who used to horse-spam-rush-stomp over the less elite forces...

I think low initiative armies and armies with cheap infantry come off pretty well with these new combat rules... fighting in initiative order without "step up" would have been hell for them, but now they are rather effective against more elite (and faster/nimbler) enemies...

Missile troops shooting with 2 ranks now (archers only? or all variants?)... that is a great boost for the shooty races... which is slightly balanced with new charge rules.

IMO the core system is the most balanced up to date, but there are opportunities for exploitation by armies that can field cheap archers/missile troops and cheap infantry that can have strength-boosting weapons like halberds and great weapons.

A mass of Empire Halberdiers and (cross)bowmen/handgunners springs to mind as actually being rather effective nowadays... This kind of army used to be receipt for disaster in the past.

Herohammernostalgia wrote:The High Elf ASF special rule got a slight/proper nerfing with the new rules for cc casualties, it helps a lot.

Having not played 8th edition, but being well acquainted with the older editions, the "step up" and "2 ranks strike" rules are actually a major overhaul and has a big influence on how effective some armies are... I figure that Chaos Warriors, with their small numbers come of worse than before as they will suffer more hits from the unit they engage... previously, when they charged or continued combat a second turn- striking first because higher initiative- they could extinguish an opponent's opportunity to do some damage to them, now they face the full number of attacks of the first rank and 1 for every model in the second. for small armies, that's gonna hurt.

agreed, this applies to all elite expensive units with a low model count.....however, cheaper elite units (ex. empire greatswords) got a huge boost since they are cheap enough to be taken in numbers, and they can hit back hard with full effect....

in any case, 8th ed games now have mass carnage in most of them...ie it's a ton of bloody fun, but it's a pain to rank up all those casualties again in preparation for your next game! Regimental bases are a must! Am thinking of sticking my models onto plasticard strips to make my life much easier!!!

Ill thought out post deleted

High Elves got buffed rather nicely with the ASF rerolls. However, they got tuned WAY down with step up, and the new core rules. HE core is GARBAGE, my blocks of 50 slaves for 100 points can normally stand up to 300+ points of high elf spear elves for 3-4 turns. Archers are meh, and the sea guard are decent. Having to spend 25% of your points on those units hurt the army pretty bad.

Then there is step up. Sure you just killed 10 of my guys with your swordmasters, but now i got attacks back against your pathetic T3 5+ AS guys...

Not to mention the army dies (with the exception of PG) to a brisk wind.

Any army that can field cheep units in big blocks benefitted hugely from this edition. O&G, Skaven, Empire, WoC with marauders, there is more, but you get the point. Skaven slaves 50 strong cost 100 points... Even if you are killing 10 a turn, depending on how they are ranked, they will be steadfast for a good 2-3 turns. They are worth so few points they are best ignored, but it really sucks getting one of your elite 300-400 point units tarpitted for a few turns. I play daemons and skaven, and even though those slaves lose tons of numbers a turn, that steadfast has them sticking around for a long time.

Magic is strong this edition, and in one spell wizards can occasionally make their points back. However the miscast table is very mean. Magic is also incredibly random. You can have a magic phase where you roll 10 dice and just decimate the enemey army. Or you can have a magic phase where you get 4 power dice and have your one spell attempt dispelled. If this happens 2 or 3 turns in a row your caster could very well be dead before he does anything. One of my issues with Teclis is that he can effectively negate a low casting roll. With his ability and the banner of sorcery he can effectively gain 2-6 extra power dice every turn. Not only does this allow him an extra 1-2 spells a turn. It really screws your opponent since if you rolled low, they are holding 2-3 dispel dice to your 8-9 power dice, not that dispel dice matter against that character.

War machines got a very SLIGHT buff in this edition with no more guess ranging. This is more of a boost to new players then a bonus to veterans, since anyone who played a gunline type could hit their guesses regardless.

Personally I think this edition was huge in balancing an incredibly unbalanced metagame. More armies are competitive then before. There are still the low tier armies, but the differense between wood elves and say, dwarves in power in 8th edition isnt nearly as big as the difference between say, ogres and daemons from 7th edition.

The powers that be demand I tone down my posts and I shall comply. Final thoughts: Rules changes this early on are immature because the edition has not had enough time to blossom into what the developers intended. From a logical perspective one would need to halt judgement until new codecies arrive and base judgements then. It's the logical choice in the mean time. As I do not wish to game with individuals who place restrictions and would enjoy finding fresh players I will avoid this forum and focus on the others. Enjoy your minor laugh seb...

@shivanangel: I have always found the randomness of the card-based system of ancient editions (4th and 5th) a very good reflection of how the "winds of magic" are supposed to work, it's waxing an waning chaos-matter and form a background pov I find it proper that you can't rely on having the same amount of power available to you every turn and that it's a very dangerous job to be a wizard.

@happydude: House-rules have always been part of the warhammer game, especially tournament-limits have been in broad use for more than a decade (in 5th they were included in the main rules). It really is about preferences. For a tournament, YMMV but I've always seen set limits as another kind of challenge: how do you make a powerfull list with the limits set, try figure that out, different take on WHFB strategy. You can still come up with hard-to-beat tactics, units and combinations that will give headaches to your opponents and trust me, I've been in a few 5th ed. (Herohammer) tournaments (store and gaming group). Tournaments where special characters, magic iitems above 50 points and level 4 wizards were banned and still people pulled off crazy stunts that "lesser men" would consider OP. The combination of the Heart of Woe ("suicide bomber amulet" 25 pts, bearer killed= d6 s4 hits to all models within bearer's strength inches-no armour saves*) combined with a potion of strength (10 pts, +3 strength) and the "Apotheosis" (resurrection) spell is too horrible to further elaborate on...


*not sure on the no armour saves though

Herohammernostalgia wrote:
Having not played 8th edition, but being well acquainted with the older editions, the "step up", fighting in initiative order and "2 ranks strike" rules are actually a major overhaul and have a big influence on how effective some armies are... I figure that Chaos Warriors, with their small numbers come of worse than before as they will suffer more hits from the unit they engage... previously, when they charged or continued combat a second turn- striking first because higher initiative- they could extinguish an opponent's opportunity to do some damage to them, now they face the full number of attacks of the first rank and 1 for every model in the second. for small, elte armies that's gotta hurt.

Warriors aren't hurt quite as bad as you might think. With high WS, T, and good armor, they don't tend to take as much damage as other units, and can still dish it out in return. Certainly in long grinds, small numbers become a liability, though.

Magic is a huge part of High Elves fluff. And you can build a pretty good caster that's not Teclis. High Elves should be building strong mages and should be using the magic phase to their advantage. As has been so aptly pointed out that they suck in so many other ways. Why is it so weird to understand that they are going to try and dominate the magic phase and through that win the game? It almost like saying that the empire or dwarves shouldn't use war machines to win. I really wish people would lay off of the High Elves magic phase. Empire and Dwarves and other armies use war machines as a huge advantage and winning factor. High Elves use magic. It's okay that they mitigate some of the randomness with the Banner of Sorcery or even Teclis.

DarkAngelHopeful

Kirasu wrote:

maybe even Tomb Kings (WUT?) maxed out on casters with the new % rules... then firing a million arrow shots.

S3 arrows that hit on 5s are pretty scary. 100 arrows kill a whole 5 saurus!

Add khalidia and that is 100 arrows with poison.



On a side note, my top 5 are:
1. WoC (I dont understand how these guys fly under the radar of most players.)
2. HE (ASF, Teclis, Crazy Swordmasters)
3. DE (Wait so your saying the Hydra stomps on me and breaths into my ranks?, What do you mean that sorceror sacrificed someone?)
4. Dwarves (I only move 3"... but why move?)
5. Empire (I have 9 warmachines and great magic.. what do you get?)

happydude wrote:The powers that be demand I tone down my posts and I shall comply. Final thoughts: Rules changes this early on are immature because the edition has not had enough time to blossom into what the developers intended. From a logical perspective one would need to halt judgement until new codecies arrive and base judgements then. It's the logical choice in the mean time. As I do not wish to game with individuals who place restrictions and would enjoy finding fresh players I will avoid this forum and focus on the others. Enjoy your minor laugh seb...

Sure thing man, you're free to play how you want to play, and to play games against people who want to play the same way as you. That's all I've been saying. And I think your point about keeping a limit on houserules this soon after the release of the new rules is a good one.

And I'm not getting any kind of laugh from this, I was just trying to make what I thought was a very simple point - people are free to keep or change as many rules as they want, and to play against people looking for the same. So if there's a group somewhere that says 'special characters are silly because these great heroes of legend couldn't turn up to every border skirmish' then they really are free to do just that.

This was always going to go downhill

Warlord GT results dominated by DoC, LM, and DE. There you go.

I"m not so sure it's as cut & dry as that enmitee. Those three armies were the most numerous. Just looking at Victory Points and not overall scores for painting it looks a bit differently. The highest VP total belonged to a VC player and the second highest was a WoC player. In fact there was no DE that had a VP total in the top ten.

ramongoroth wrote:I"m not so sure it's as cut & dry as that enmitee. Those three armies were the most numerous. Just looking at Victory Points and not overall scores for painting it looks a bit differently. The highest VP total belonged to a VC player and the second highest was a WoC player. In fact there was no DE that had a VP total in the top ten.

Good statistical analysis.

In a game where the are objectives or goals to win, i dont think VP is much of a factor, it would be if the game was just try to table your opponent every game, and even if that were the case, i dont think VC really done alot of tabling in that gt. but that's not the case. I dont see how more VPs make them any better.

got a good view of the rankings and armies.

There were 12 DoCs, 3 Of them made it to the top 10
14 LM, 3 of them made it
13 DE, 1 made it to the top 10\
8 VC, 1 made it
7 Dwarves, 1 made it.

I dunno about you but having alot of VPs decides tie breakers, thats it. Not win games. They could be jolly killing all they want, but if the result isnt a win, it wasnt very effective in the game overall. Just in the case of the poor WoC.

EDIT EDIT:
there were 11 WoC, ZERO in the top 10.

I was referring specifically to top 10 in VPs when talking about WoC and it finished 15th overall. Now do Overall Tournament points (TP) include sportsmanship and painting in a GT yes? If that isn't the case then it is my mistake.

Still, I would not include DE in the 'dominate' category considering how numerous they were. There were two overall in the top 20 whereas DOC and LIZ had three each n the top 10 and four each in the top 20.

Guys, I need some convincing that its worth me to return to WHFB.

I used to play Empire...sold that army but now considering returning to TT. When I saw that High Elves get a racial ASF, my gut told me thats cheese. Please tell me (non HE players!) if this really is as cheese as I think, or is it, as some others have suggested in their posts, mitigated through running horde armies (skaven, ork n gobbo, empire etc)? I dont want to be beating down on HE players out there, but its almost as if movement and charing etc are irrelevant if they ASF?

Also...any word on some love for Tomb Kings? They have to be one of the least played armies, tragically so. If i were to return, I wouldn't mind playing them, but not if they get the shaft again.

@iLLiTHiD -

You know, as soon as the HE Army Book came out 3 years ago and people found out that they were getting racial ASF, people have been crying out 'CHEESE' and 'OMFGBBQ BROKENZ' about them. In practice (and partially owing to Army Book Creep) they're not considered Top Tier barring 1-2 builds (usually involving Teclis). Even with 8th Edition out and ASF providing re-rolls, High Elves struggle somewhat because of high points-cost/model and T3/5+Svs all around (for the most part). They have a high damage output overall, but if they don't do enough damage, chances are those hit-backs from Step Up are going to cause a lot of casualties. Steadfast doesn't help them out especially either. Changes to template hits (anything under templates hit now, no more partial hits) also really really hurt HEs, for the aforementioned T3/5+Sv issue.

Movement/charging has never remained irrelevant as getting in Flank Charges reduces the number of people hitting back and charging grants you a +1 to Combat Resolution. If anything, being able to pull of the Flank Charge is more important than before.

Re: TKs - rumors are that they're slated for Q1/2 of next year. As it is, they're not the best army out there, but given changes in Magic and rulings on TK Magic, they can be quite a deadly force, and their Magic Phase scales up really really well with the current rule-set. Dunno on what they're planning on changing about the army, though.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Magic is a huge part of High Elves fluff. And you can build a pretty good caster that's not Teclis. High Elves should be building strong mages and should be using the magic phase to their advantage. As has been so aptly pointed out that they suck in so many other ways. Why is it so weird to understand that they are going to try and dominate the magic phase and through that win the game? It almost like saying that the empire or dwarves shouldn't use war machines to win. I really wish people would lay off of the High Elves magic phase. Empire and Dwarves and other armies use war machines as a huge advantage and winning factor. High Elves use magic. It's okay that they mitigate some of the randomness with the Banner of Sorcery or even Teclis.

DarkAngelHopeful

This.

Also, to all the Teclis haters out there (read: everyone), at 1900+ points, the minimum size game in which Teclis can be taken, get good magical defences or a way to beat Teclis. If you don't, quit complaining about how the big scary mage killed your plastic toys.

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Magic is a huge part of High Elves fluff. And you can build a pretty good caster that's not Teclis. High Elves should be building strong mages and should be using the magic phase to their advantage. As has been so aptly pointed out that they suck in so many other ways. Why is it so weird to understand that they are going to try and dominate the magic phase and through that win the game? It almost like saying that the empire or dwarves shouldn't use war machines to win. I really wish people would lay off of the High Elves magic phase. Empire and Dwarves and other armies use war machines as a huge advantage and winning factor. High Elves use magic. It's okay that they mitigate some of the randomness with the Banner of Sorcery or even Teclis.

DarkAngelHopeful

This.

Also, to all the Teclis haters out there (read: everyone), at 1900+ points, the minimum size game in which Teclis can be taken, get good magical defences or a way to beat Teclis. If you don't, quit complaining about how the big scary mage killed your plastic toys.

I think that one of their (the haters) points, though. There is very limited magical defence against him because most of his stuff is cast with IF.

Jin wrote:@iLLiTHiD -

You know, as soon as the HE Army Book came out 3 years ago and people found out that they were getting racial ASF, people have been crying out 'CHEESE' and 'OMFGBBQ BROKENZ' about them. In practice (and partially owing to Army Book Creep) they're not considered Top Tier barring 1-2 builds (usually involving Teclis). Even with 8th Edition out and ASF providing re-rolls, High Elves struggle somewhat because of high points-cost/model and T3/5+Svs all around (for the most part). They have a high damage output overall, but if they don't do enough damage, chances are those hit-backs from Step Up are going to cause a lot of casualties. Steadfast doesn't help them out especially either. Changes to template hits (anything under templates hit now, no more partial hits) also really really hurt HEs, for the aforementioned T3/5+Sv issue.

Movement/charging has never remained irrelevant as getting in Flank Charges reduces the number of people hitting back and charging grants you a +1 to Combat Resolution. If anything, being able to pull of the Flank Charge is more important than before.

Re: TKs - rumors are that they're slated for Q1/2 of next year. As it is, they're not the best army out there, but given changes in Magic and rulings on TK Magic, they can be quite a deadly force, and their Magic Phase scales up really really well with the current rule-set. Dunno on what they're planning on changing about the army, though.

Thanks for your reply.

So prehaps movement, and shooting are more important. And it seems that having a strong magic phase is alot more important now too. Are we seeing a transition to more level 4 wizards in the 2000 point bracket opposed to the scroll caddy?

I was going to play dark elves back in 6th/7th edition, but never committed to them (had the army book but that was all i brought - a waste i guess) Then again, im planning on taking dark eldar in 40k, i think dark *elves* as well would be abit much - so i'll be looking to test the waters with another fantasy army. Please tell me if there's anything i get terribly wrong in the fundimentals of this new edition if my assessmentopinion is out of date (it most likey will be)

Ones that intrest me are:

Lizardmen
Empire
Tomb Kings
Woof Elves

Lizardmen - I hear only good things about this army, except prehaps their lower initiative. Possesses strong magic, good skirmishers, resistance to psychology, tougher melee warriors, some nice linebreakers (stegadons, cold ones, kroxigors). War machine salamander may be the only other thing slightly lacking in presence/firepower.


Empire - im quite tempted to also return to playing these guys. A great all-comers army from memory - ability to field large numbers of a variety of troops. Outriders were gold back in the day as flank harrassment. Weaker psychology would mean a BSB as a must. ARe their war machines still as unrelaible? One rule i did pick up - no more guessing. A great boon for this army, for sure.


TOmb Kings - another contender - kind of been the underdog of fantasy ever since they split undead into two armies. Lack of hard hitting units that are able to be effectively moved around , with the limitations of the older magic phases meant just fielding a *ton* of skeletal bowmen. Fearwide army a boon. Two big weaknesses are the reliance on magic phase to be able to even fight on par with an enemy army, that and the weakness of SP assassin units to take out the hierophant, and thus cause the collapse of the army. Unless this army is given some serious love, probably best left on the sheft.


Woof elves - the weakest of the three elf armies. Still the impressive ability to field mass skrimisher units can really destroy some armies. I wish i knew more on this army, only that I know they are expensive (elves), they are very lightly armoured, even for elves, and that they are mostly, if not completely, a skirimisher army. I supose movement and shooting are the msot vital aspects of this army - how are they coping in the metagame so far?

Most broken army i ever saw was when an earthquaqe hit just after the guy opened his army case right on the edge of the counter... so many pieces.

HoverBoy wrote:Most broken army i ever saw was when an earthquaqe hit just after the guy opened his army case right on the edge of the counter... so many pieces.

Thread winner.