Considering how elite you have to be to even wear terminator armour, don't you think they would have 'better than marine' stats? I was thinking of trying this:

5 5 4 5 2 5 2 10 2+5++

So basically, another WS, BS, Toughness, Initiative and wound...Is this that bad? I'd be willing to pay more for them of course.

I just never understood why they were so...weak. You have to be a great veteran to wear the armor, so you'd probably have the +1 BS anyway. The higher initiative may be stupid, considering how large they are in the first place.

How does....60 points sound per model? I was thinking they should be less than..Sentinels, but more than regular terminators...

Thoughts? This would be a house rule thing.

it could work. Except the terminators have to be 65 points each..

I think I'll get rid of the extra initiative and lower it to 3, then give them +1 S.

I'll just make them 70 points, with any combination of weapons 5 points more.

Increase WS, BS, S, T, W? Bit much.

No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.

Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.

Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

Thats where i find that wrong...
See Terminators are alot taller than their power armored brethren and have been serving for centuries. And not only that but they are wiser and more powerful. Plus the Terminators in the books are insanely hard to kill.
Space Marines as they age get stronger, bigger, and alot more intellegent. Plus people always forget that they have a fricking targeting system in their helmets. Every space marine has a targeting system inside their helmets.
Terminator Helmets have alert systems and speed checkers, GPS, Instant Intellegence, Squad View, automiatically updating combat trackers, and life signatures. Terminator armor is by far the most technological wonder in the entire imperium. It has everything you need in there. Its armor also holds a shield generator basically!

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).What? Does it really matter? Who says everyone uses powerfists? Lightning claws are much more fun, and most people would be happy to get another S on them

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.
I disagree, Termies are more solid and are basically walking tanks, the save represents how well the armor can save them if they actually DO get hit, Not how well it generally protects them

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.
Not really. I very rarely take Pfists because of how slow they are, and how little they actually do against swarm and what-not
Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.
Um, have you read ANY fluff? SEARGEANTS are way better than the rest of the unit. VETERANS are so far superior to seargents that it's funny. Veterans are incredibly skilled individuals that aren't well represented in the game either. Think of terminators as the veterans of veterans. The absolute best of the best of the chapter/legion. It's not like they throw a regular old marine in a suit of terminator armor.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

I wouldn't touch the wounds at all, a second wound is something really, and I mean REALLY big. Think about how strong the DA termies would be with a second wound. Wound allocation is bad enough with nobs and thunderwolves. Having it on 2+/3++ guys riding in a land raider is pure madness.

Aaaaanyway...I would say that a boost in toughness would work, with a decent price hike though.
+1S would work from a fluff perspective, but for gameplay I would leave it out.
Weapon skill increase would work very well, aslong as it's on Assault termies only, and once again with a price hike, hitting most things on 3+ is very good.
Ballistic skill I wouldn't touch either, if only for gameplay balance, hitting on 2+ is huuuge.
Initiative...no changes there, I think that the cumbersome armour and the increased strength sort of balance eachother out.

They are better than regular Marines. 2+/5++(or 3++ o.O) with two attacks base, base LD of 9, all sorts of power gubbinz and heavy weapons with relentless?

Oh, and they can teleport.

Yeah, they're pretty sick for 40ish points. If you want really super-bad-ass terminators look at GKs, as well as their points cost.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).What? Does it really matter? Who says everyone uses powerfists? Lightning claws are much more fun, and most people would be happy to get another S on them

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.
I disagree, Termies are more solid and are basically walking tanks, the save represents how well the armor can save them if they actually DO get hit, Not how well it generally protects them

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.
Not really. I very rarely take Pfists because of how slow they are, and how little they actually do against swarm and what-not
Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.
Um, have you read ANY fluff? SEARGEANTS are way better than the rest of the unit. VETERANS are so far superior to seargents that it's funny. Veterans are incredibly skilled individuals that aren't well represented in the game either. Think of terminators as the veterans of veterans. The absolute best of the best of the chapter/legion. It's not like they throw a regular old marine in a suit of terminator armor.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

I agree with samus. But vanguard and sternguard like Terminators HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Terminators have been living for centuries! Vanguard and Sternguard have only been living between 100-190 years.

Asherian Command wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).What? Does it really matter? Who says everyone uses powerfists? Lightning claws are much more fun, and most people would be happy to get another S on them

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.
I disagree, Termies are more solid and are basically walking tanks, the save represents how well the armor can save them if they actually DO get hit, Not how well it generally protects them

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.
Not really. I very rarely take Pfists because of how slow they are, and how little they actually do against swarm and what-not
Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.
Um, have you read ANY fluff? SEARGEANTS are way better than the rest of the unit. VETERANS are so far superior to seargents that it's funny. Veterans are incredibly skilled individuals that aren't well represented in the game either. Think of terminators as the veterans of veterans. The absolute best of the best of the chapter/legion. It's not like they throw a regular old marine in a suit of terminator armor.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

I agree with samus. But vanguard and sternguard like Terminators HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

How do you figure? Stenguard are better at shooting than Termies but can't do nearly as well in CC. Vanguard aren't as good in CC either, what with their 3+ save and with Jump Packs and weapon upgrades they're comparable to Terminators in price.

Monster Rain wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:No +1 Str; Str 10 powerfists would be right-out; not even a Str 9 Powerfist(being that the +1 Str would/should be granted by the armor and thus a characteristic modifier).What? Does it really matter? Who says everyone uses powerfists? Lightning claws are much more fun, and most people would be happy to get another S on them

Bike-like Toughness does not really make that much sense either yes they have the big bulky tough termy armor; which should make it harder to wound them, but that is indicated by the 2+/5+ save.
I disagree, Termies are more solid and are basically walking tanks, the save represents how well the armor can save them if they actually DO get hit, Not how well it generally protects them

Initiative Penalty does not entirely even matter; most Termies are carrying powerfists or equivalents, excepting the Sgt, and Lightning Claw assault terminators, and you are punishing them for no real reason.
Not really. I very rarely take Pfists because of how slow they are, and how little they actually do against swarm and what-not
Also no Veteran Marines are any better at Shooting nor Close combat than standard marines; and terminators are just Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans in Tactical Dreadnought armor; so if you wanted termies to have increased skills, then Stern/Van-guard vets woiuld need the Same stat-boost. Same goes for wounds.
Um, have you read ANY fluff? SEARGEANTS are way better than the rest of the unit. VETERANS are so far superior to seargents that it's funny. Veterans are incredibly skilled individuals that aren't well represented in the game either. Think of terminators as the veterans of veterans. The absolute best of the best of the chapter/legion. It's not like they throw a regular old marine in a suit of terminator armor.

Basically they are fine the way they are.

I agree with samus. But vanguard and sternguard like Terminators HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

How do you figure? Stenguard are better at shooting than Termies but can't do nearly as well in CC. Vanguard aren't as good in CC either, what with their 3+ save and with Jump Packs and weapon upgrades they're comparable to Terminators in price.

Termies that are given their actual weapons in lore are flipping rigged. They rarely die and they are able to hold back entire invasions by themeselves. In gameplay they suck. Because they are slow and their weapons need to pack a little more of a punch. Like a longer range or special ammo. Also the Termies own against vechiles and heavy infantry. Vanguards are just terrible and I only use them if I know its going to be close quarters.
Also the terminators have been in service for centuries not like 100 years.

Fluff Wise you do have a point, however I do think they are good right where they are.

At most I would see the increase in WS & BS but not much beyond that. Especially 2 wounds. That would be a bit ridiculous. The problem with increasing their stats and increasing their point cost you would have to increase the suriviability. I wouldnt spend 65pts on it with stats like that unless you could assure me that it could take a punishment. Which, would at the least mean a 4+ invunerable or higher/lower. Which, would equally be slowed.

Not to mention there should be no unit out that in the game of 40k that someone should feel justified in spending potentially 650pts on.

Comintern wrote:Fluff Wise you do have a point, however I do think they are good right where they are.

At most I would see the increase in WS & BS but not much beyond that. Especially 2 wounds. That would be a bit ridiculous. The problem with increasing their stats and increasing their point cost you would have to increase the suriviability. I wouldnt spend 65pts on it with stats like that unless you could assure me that it could take a punishment. Which, would at the least mean a 4+ invunerable or higher/lower. Which, would equally be slowed.

Not to mention there should be no unit out that in the game of 40k that someone should feel justified in spending potentially 650pts on.

yet people spend 650 on honorguards.....
And on vanguards. They need to fix that.
Honorguard cost wayyyyyyyyyy tooo much.
Same with Vanguards.

I would also like to point out that a Veteran Sergeant is a first company veteran assigned to lead a squad from the other companies.

Someone said that First Company vets are way better than vet sgts. Just wanted to clear that up.

Monster Rain wrote:I would also like to point out that a Veteran Sergeant is a first company veteran assigned to lead a squad from the other companies.

Someone said that First Company vets are way better than vet sgts. Just wanted to clear that up.

Thats true. But Veteran Segerants are all part of the 1st company. As with Captains.

Just improve their invulrable to 4+ would do it for me, would make them much better.

Although an extra pip of WS/BS would make sense as well.

Rest would be fine as it is.

Have neither of you read the fluff?

terminators are not super veterans; they are standard Vets from the 1st company that where tactical dreadnought armor. That is all; the only thing they have over any other Vets is that they have been rated to wear the armor(and most if not all vets in the 1st company are thusly rated)

hell veterans(aside from Sergeants)are only found in the 1st Company of most space marine chapters(space wolves are the only Chapter i can think of where this is not the case; and their veterans, wolfguard, are also all rated to wear termy armor, their really old veterans are either scouts or heavy weapon specialists). Standard Codex adherent Marines have 100 terminator armor trained marines; those marines often do not fight in terminator armor but instead go to field as Vangaurd or Sternguard Veterans.

I'm going on a, want to make a unit better on the tabletop when compared to some of the flashier cousins (Sang Guard for example) over fluff.

Plus fluff has never really matched up to the rules anyways.

I think HBMC talked about having houserules to give them 2 wounds each, since similar units like Nobz and Tyranid Warriors (at the time) had 2 wounds each. Apparently it worked quite well.

You people do realize that Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators are the same guys inside?

Difference is that Van and Sternguard are them in PA not TDA.


I think that they definitly need a WS and BS pip. T is arguable from the fluff, but that might be OTT.

2 wounds is definite NONO, although it's not because they could abuse Wound allocation(since no more then 1/2 would have different equipment they couldn't do it as well)

Grey Templar wrote:You people do realize that Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators are the same guys inside?

Difference is that Van and Sternguard are them in PA not TDA.


I think that they definitly need a WS and BS pip. T is arguable from the fluff, but that might be OTT.

2 wounds is definite NONO, although it's not because they could abuse Wound allocation(since no more then 1/2 would have different equipment they couldn't do it as well)

Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

Actually I'm pretty sure that there are additional augmentations needed for a Space Marine to even use terminator armor, so they should be thougher then normal Space Marines.

Asherian Command wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:You people do realize that Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators are the same guys inside?

Difference is that Van and Sternguard are them in PA not TDA.

Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

No, that's what you said. It's pretty well established that Vanguard and Sterngaurd vets are the same kind of vets that qualify for terminator armour. The reason they don't wear it is either they prefer powered armour (see Huron Blackheart), the situation doesn't allow it, or they simply don't have enough suits of TDA to equip their veterans with.

Ashrian Command - sorry, youre wrong on your assertion that terminators are "better" than other vets.

Veterans arte just that: veteran. They are then further specialised into Vanguard, Sternguard or Terminators. But they are all veterans.

Your timescale on years is also incorrect - they promote on skill. You can be a Terminator after comparitively few years, if you show the right skills to wear said armour.

As to the poster who said they are "taller' - no, the armour is physically bigger. They are normal marines who can wear normal armour.

I like the idea of +1 to WS and BS for the vets not just Termi vets but stern and van. if they are the best of the best it makes since they would be better that sergeants or regular marines... stat line should be like so

scouts- 3 3 4 4 1 4 1 8 4+
regular marines- 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Vets- 5 5 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+ or 2+5++

i think the +1 T and S or W are not needed they are still marines the fact that they can all have double strength weapons is enough for the S bonus and the T is used in the Termi armor better save. marines need a counter to all the other WS 5 units out there

P16 para 3 of the marine codex "The veterans of the 1st company are masters of all battlefield roles, and are permitted to fight as sternguard or vanguard squads as their proficiencies dictate, and can even fight in revered suits of terminator armour should the mission goal require it"

But I think they should get a bonus to their proficiency, not sure how it'd work with Sgts though

Asherian Command wrote:Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

You pulled information out of your ass, with no cited sources. Wrong information.

Terminators have centuries of experience, yes, but so do Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. So do all Veterans, regardless of what kind of armor they're wearing.

A Terminator is nothing more than a First Company Veteran wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

They definitely don't need a T boost (T4 is bad enough as it is), and a WS and BS boost is debatable, since they wouldn't be that much better than the already elite Space Marines from which the First Company is chosen.

And a second wound is ridiculous. Nobz are big and hard to kill just by virtue of being hard to kill, not because they're wearing tank armor. So are Tyranid Warriors. Terminators, on the other hand, are nothing more than squishy humans inside of tank armor. Once you get through said armor, it's easy to kill the human inside.

Yes, they're hard to kill. That's the 2+ armor save. Yes, they have a shield generator built into their armor. That's the 5+ invuln save.

Terminators are fine as they are.

I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

Dracos wrote:I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

Except that some Sergeants (specifically, Veteran Sergeants, who are not represented on the tabletop as such, beyond some helmet markings) are drawn from First Company.

Eldar have centuries of experience and far more technology (plus they actually understand theirs). They dedicate a few thousand years to learning one martial style and end up with a WS5 for it if they get 'lost' on the exarch path, and usually it's a 4 for aspects, and a 3 for Guardians (who are supposedly trained soldiers and hundreds of years old too). Putting it in perspective like that I think Terminators are just fine.

... And if its a Vet Sgt (not normal Tactical/devastator/assault marine) sgt, he would get the stat boost too. I fail to see the inconsistency. Unless you are saying that normally Tactical/devastator/assault marine sgt are from the first company.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guitardian wrote:Eldar have centuries of experience and far more technology that they actually understand. They dedicate a few thousand years to learning one martial style and end up with a WS5 for it if they get 'lost' on the exarch path, and usually it's a 4 for aspects, and a 3 for Guardians (who are supposedly trained soldiers and hundreds of years old too). Putting it in perspective like that I think Terminators are just fine.

The problem I have with this is that Orks are WS 4 as well, and nobs can hit WS 5 with a waaagh banner. From that perspective, it seems odd that the best Vets SM can offer only have 4 WS.

Dracos wrote:Unless you are saying that normally Tactical/devastator/assault marine sgt are from the first company.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Not all the time, but often.

SaintHazard wrote:That's exactly what I'm saying. Not all the time, but often.

I thought that was more of the exception to the rule. I guess it makes sense as is if this is the case.

Sorry but i read index astartes and it said terminators are greater veterans than the run of the mill veterans.
Sorry if i spoke out of term.
I read alot haven't checked it out for a while

SaintHazard wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

You pulled information out of your ass, with no cited sources. Wrong information.

Terminators have centuries of experience, yes, but so do Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. So do all Veterans, regardless of what kind of armor they're wearing.

A Terminator is nothing more than a First Company Veteran wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

They definitely don't need a T boost (T4 is bad enough as it is), and a WS and BS boost is debatable, since they wouldn't be that much better than the already elite Space Marines from which the First Company is chosen.

And a second wound is ridiculous. Nobz are big and hard to kill just by virtue of being hard to kill, not because they're wearing tank armor. So are Tyranid Warriors. Terminators, on the other hand, are nothing more than squishy humans inside of tank armor. Once you get through said armor, it's easy to kill the human inside.

Yes, they're hard to kill. That's the 2+ armor save. Yes, they have a shield generator built into their armor. That's the 5+ invuln save.

Terminators are fine as they are.

Totally agree, beside they dont have shield generators.

They could get a 1+/5++ Save, only ignored by AP1not 2. And perhaps BS 5 but the stats now seem right too.

I remeber 3rd Edition start, when the got now inv. save and they alwasy went do instant, also because we had a more Hvy Weapon heavy game.

Dark Scipio wrote:Totally agree, beside they dont have shield generators.

Last I read, the 5+ invuln save has something to do with the bit of the Emperor's armor in the Crux Terminatus, hence "basically" a shield generator, though not literally one. Similar to a Rosarius, but not as powerful.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Considering how elite you have to be to even wear terminator armour, don't you think they would have 'better than marine' stats?

So basically, another WS, BS, Toughness, Initiative and wound...Is this that bad?

5-man Squad with W2 base means damage allocation just got a lot better, like Nobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guitardian wrote:Eldar have centuries of experience and far more technology (plus they actually understand theirs). They dedicate a few thousand years to learning one martial style and end up with a WS5 for it if they get 'lost' on the exarch path, and usually it's a 4 for aspects, and a 3 for Guardians (who are supposedly trained soldiers and hundreds of years old too). Putting it in perspective like that I think Terminators are just fine.

Or, we can just bump the Eldars to WS5 for CC Aspects, and WS7 for CC Exarchs, and so on, rippling through all of the Codices as they get updated.

Yeah, at some point fluff has to take a hit for game balance.

Sooo... I guess we can agree that 5 BS and 5 WS would be okay? How much would you be willing to pay for that? I'd say...55?

Wait. Obliterators have 2 wounds....Never mind. They also have about 7 enormous weapons.

I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

Dark Scipio wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Wrong. What did we say?
Termiantors have centuries of experince. Regular veterans do not!
Terminators are trained to fight in Terminator Armor. Veterans are not!

You pulled information out of your ass, with no cited sources. Wrong information.

Terminators have centuries of experience, yes, but so do Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. So do all Veterans, regardless of what kind of armor they're wearing.

A Terminator is nothing more than a First Company Veteran wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

They definitely don't need a T boost (T4 is bad enough as it is), and a WS and BS boost is debatable, since they wouldn't be that much better than the already elite Space Marines from which the First Company is chosen.

And a second wound is ridiculous. Nobz are big and hard to kill just by virtue of being hard to kill, not because they're wearing tank armor. So are Tyranid Warriors. Terminators, on the other hand, are nothing more than squishy humans inside of tank armor. Once you get through said armor, it's easy to kill the human inside.

Yes, they're hard to kill. That's the 2+ armor save. Yes, they have a shield generator built into their armor. That's the 5+ invuln save.

Terminators are fine as they are.

Totally agree, beside they dont have shield generators.

They could get a 1+/5++ Save, only ignored by AP1not 2. And perhaps BS 5 but the stats now seem right too.

I remeber 3rd Edition start, when the got now inv. save and they alwasy went do instant, also because we had a more Hvy Weapon heavy game.

No save may ever be better than 2+, if a save becomes better than 2+, then it is treated as 2+.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

Monster Rain wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

Undying and constantly resurrecting spirits inside the Eldar Psyche whom are masters of their aspect of the god of war with centuries of training and millennia of field experience - not counting down time between conflict. Pick a profile you wish, but make sure several of the numbers or two-figure

On a serious note, though, one point of WS or S is a LOT of difference.

Mahtamori wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

Undying and constantly resurrecting spirits inside the Eldar Psyche whom are masters of their aspect of the god of war with centuries of training and millennia of field experience - not counting down time between conflict. Pick a profile you wish, but make sure several of the numbers or two-figure

On a serious note, though, one point of WS or S is a LOT of difference.

Damn straight.

The only recommendation I would make (asides from certain people reading their codex) is make them slightly tougher, and maybe bring back that ol' rule (afaik) with terminators using their stormbolters as pistols in closecombat for a +1a. I do think they could benefit from more toughness, maybe +1T, maybe FNP or something that works like it, than a boost in any other area. Their offensive is fine really, but wasn't their save 2+ on 2-3 dice orginally (lol!)

Stopped readin after i saw the statline in the opening post.

Overpowered, t5 and 2 wounds is too much, your marines arent nobs. For the statline you posted they would need to cost like 85 points a model minimum, and pay 5 for thss like blood angels.

WS S T BS... the difference between a 3 and a 4 is huge. Okay, so IG are trained human soldiers. Stormtroopers are better trained human soldiers. Marines are trained and augmented human soldiers. Veteran marines are trained and augmented and experienced human soldiers. Terminators are trained and augmented and experienced human soldiers with very thick clunky armor. How many levels of Chuck Norris can we climb before the elite of the elite of the elite of the elite starts to become kind of silly? Just give them their nice saves, teleporting, asscannons, powerfists, landraider assault ramps, 4 accross statlines and leave it be. It's not as if they don't have enough going for them already when you compare them to other armies elite choices.

game wise i think they are all good, fluff wise all marines are awful, the game doesnt play them up as unstoppable killing machines which can hold back entire armies of guardsmen. but gamewise im okay with how they are now, an increase in BS or WS would be okay, but anything else may be OTT

Monster Rain wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

9s, of course.

And the C'Tan are 10s and 11s, because that's how silly Codex escalation gets when we all start grabbing at Fluff and trying to make our stuff more and more uber.

I propose that my Chaos Daemons all get S100, WS50,000, and I15, and a -1+ invuln save. Also, FNP. Twice.

If we're going to start defining our statlines based on fluff, I will accept nothing less.

Hmm, I don't think it's really called for ridiculing this topic. I mean, one can disagree in so many other ways.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I am not opposed to WS5 BS5 Termies as long as Eldar Aspects get bumped to WS5 / BS5 base, with even higher WS7 & BS7 for Exarchs. Points costs would increase proportionally.

What would Pheonix Lords be then? o.O

9s, of course.

And the C'Tan are 10s and 11s, because that's how silly Codex escalation gets when we all start grabbing at Fluff and trying to make our stuff more and more uber.

1. Your avatar is perhaps the most distracting one I've ever seen.
2. C'tan are an ancient god, I honestly don't think normal WH40k was made for his Chuck Norrisness.

Just throwing this out here, if GW buffs the NORMAL terminator to suggested levels, what happens to the Grey Knight termies? They are, after all, the "elite of the elite of the elite of the elite". Not to mention the Grand Masters... WS/BS 8, W 7, T 9, 2+/2++ FNP?

Personally I find most stats aren't indicative with the fluff/fiction to begin with - currently the Chapter Master is a Captain with bits of wargear and a bombardment a Captain would have the authority to make anyway. I think Terminator's should be a little bit tougher without having to have SS but in the current stat state I'd say give them either an extra wound, or make them T 4 (5) or give them a re-roll to their save. I've had too many Termies die from light small arms fire - and not masses of it either (although I am unlucky whenever I field them) and make their wargear master crafted or something and adjust points accordingly. Something like that anyway...

Oh god another "My Marines aren't leet enough" thread.
You know what's base T5? Daemon Princes. Terminators should not be as tough as a creature twice their size made of pure warp stuff.
BS 5? That's part of what your own Captains get, who are supposed to be a step up from Veterans.
WS 5? Honour Guard Chapter Champion, the best warrior of the chapter that's not a Captain or the chapter master.
See a trend here?

Yeah, the trend is "BAW MY MARINES ARE STATTED WRONG".

Yes they are.

Yes, that's intentional.

Can my Necrons all be T6 and have a 2+ armor save, like they do in the fluff?

And can they come back from the dead regardless of what kills them or how many times they fail a WBB roll?

And their weapons rip apart your infantry, therefore wound on a 2+ and cause instant death on all unsaved wounds, right?

And they're AP2, right?

'Cause if we're going to start defining statlines based on fluff, I've got a LOT of changes to make to my non-Marine armies.

So I take it I am not the only one sick and tired of marine players crying that they don't have an even more uber and cheesy army then what they already do?

Hell, if your marines need to be this good, then my Chaos Marines should be able to one up you in every way, shape, and form. After all, our main 4 have only been fighting since the Horus Hersey and traded off their souls for mutations and gifts to make them even stronger and more brutal.

jp400 wrote:So I take it I am not the only one sick and tired of marine players crying that they don't have an even more uber and cheesy army then what they already do?

I'm a Marine player, and I'm perfectly happy with my Marines' statlines. They can outshoot and out-crump most other armies and can already beat down most other basic models in the game in single combat. They do not need a buff.

Unless they're going to be an entire army of inch-high C'tan, in which case I insist they cost at least 300 points per model.

Marines(not BAs) are not cheezy.

we are perfectly balanced with an even ratio of good, uber and suckish units.


if they made Marines fluffy they would be OTT.

SaintHazard wrote:

jp400 wrote:So I take it I am not the only one sick and tired of marine players crying that they don't have an even more uber and cheesy army then what they already do?

I'm a Marine player, and I'm perfectly happy with my Marines' statlines. They can outshoot and out-crump most other armies and can already beat down most other basic models in the game in single combat. They do not need a buff.

Unless they're going to be an entire army of inch-high C'tan, in which case I insist they cost at least 300 points per model.

Well said.

Nice to see a marine player with a level head.

Mahtamori wrote:1. Your avatar is perhaps the most distracting one I've ever seen.

2. C'tan are an ancient god, I honestly don't think normal WH40k was made for his Chuck Norrisness.

You're welcome.

Nothing wrong with moving the C'Tan to Apoc-only.

Agreed. Give em true Apoc stats/cost and move em over. Like the Deathstrike, they have no place in regular games of 40k.

Grey Templar wrote: if they made Marines fluffy they would be OTT.

No, because everybody else would have "fluffy" uber stuff.

We'd be playing 40k-munda, with 2000-pt armies of 11 Marines fighting 20 Orks or a dozen Eldars.

jp400 wrote:Agreed. Give em true Apoc stats/cost and move em over. Like the Deathstrike, they have no place in regular games of 40k.

Honestly, I think terminators are fine the way they are. The only way to make them beefier with a points cost bump that I could see would be to either allow them to carry more weapons (storm shield and thunder hammer and storm bolter, for example) or to give them a rerollable invul save or something.

SaintHazard wrote:

Dracos wrote:I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

Except that some Sergeants (specifically, Veteran Sergeants, who are not represented on the tabletop as such, beyond some helmet markings) are drawn from First Company.

Spot on, Sargeants ARE basically Veterans, upping Veterans may also mean upping Sargeants.

Ailaros wrote:Honestly, I think terminators are fine the way they are.

The only way to make them beefier with a points cost bump that I could see would be to either allow them to carry more weapons (storm shield and thunder hammer and storm bolter, for example) or to give them a rerollable invul save or something.

Agree. Termies are just fine as-is.

The way to bump them is to let them buy a Veteran Skill.

Why just not make all their weapons master-crafted? As codex chapters usually maintain around 100 suits, it could go fluff wise that the weapons have been around just as long. It wouldn't be too much of a point kick as a characteristic bump.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Considering how elite you have to be to even wear terminator armour, don't you think they would have 'better than marine' stats? I was thinking of trying this:

5 5 4 5 2 5 2 10 2+5++

So basically, another WS, BS, Toughness, Initiative and wound...Is this that bad? I'd be willing to pay more for them of course.

I just never understood why they were so...weak. You have to be a great veteran to wear the armor, so you'd probably have the +1 BS anyway. The higher initiative may be stupid, considering how large they are in the first place.

How does....60 points sound per model? I was thinking they should be less than..Sentinels, but more than regular terminators...

Thoughts? This would be a house rule thing.

Um, no. Your terminators would be cheaper than some crisis suit load-outs and at least twice as killy.

Dracos wrote:I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

yeah i kind of want to see something like that, i don't get why vanguard, sternguard and regular veterans all have the same statline and are only different because of wargear (and powers derived from wargear ie: the sternguard special ammo). I think giving them +1 WS or BS would be a little much, but something like reroll 1's in melee/ shooting for vanguard and sternguard, respectively, might be neat to see, but overall its quiet unecessary...

Joetaco wrote:

Dracos wrote:I'd like to see Vets distinguished in the statline in some way from regular Sgts as well. The +1 WS and perhaps +1 BS makes sense. Beyond that seems OTT IMO.

yeah i kind of want to see something like that, i don't get why vanguard, sternguard and regular veterans all have the same statline and are only different because of wargear (and powers derived from wargear ie: the sternguard special ammo). I think giving them +1 WS or BS would be a little much, but something like reroll 1's in melee/ shooting for vanguard and sternguard, respectively, might be neat to see, but overall its quiet unecessary...

Then go play Second Edition.

But wait, aren't Terminators taller than regular run-of-the-mill Veterans? Surely that calls for enhanced stats!

Not so! My (metal) Termies (on 25mm slottabases) are smaller than my regular (plastic) Marines. Therefore, Termies stats should be reduced to S3 T3!

Nonsense! Your Terminator are ancient, and therefore should have W5 each!

Waitaminit, have we just gone back full circle?

If you want stats with more differentiation than there is, move to a d10 or higher. Hell, use inquisitor rules. At least they're free. As is, I think terminators are fine, and agree that eldar need a bump in Ws/Bs far more than marines.

You can get as much differentiation with a D6 as you can with a D10...

Okay, rephrase: Widen the range of numbers you use to represent stats, or Hell, use inquisitor rules.

And that would improve the game how?

....I didn't say it would improve the game. I said I like terminators the way they are. For those who feel that "terminators are not represented by the stats as being demonstrably better than tactical marines" expanding the range of numbers could allow greater differentiation between models for a more representative "feel" of how good they are in the fluff. Thus my advice. I personally think it would slow the game down and complicate things, but it would allow for a more nuanced approach.

Perhaps Tacticals should be nerfed to WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 so that Termies are clearly bettter.

How to make Terminators 'better' with no additional cost/modelling: Count the light on their shoulder/head as a lasgun shot at BS 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps Tacticals should be nerfed to WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 so that Termies are clearly bettter.

That would make them guardsmen w/ power armour... for 3x the points cost

Space Marines were just humans in Power Armor...

Something that it helps to remember is that numbers can multiply out, so that an improved Strength characteristic and improved Attack characteristic is more than twice as good as having either. Consider the effect of WS5 and BS5 on Venerable Dreadnoughts, even accounting for the tremendous survivability that Venerable confers.

You can sort of point out the Chaos Space Marine Chaos in this fashion, taking the Chaos Space Marine as the basic package and taking each increment as 1pt basic +1 per interacting decrement. So Berzerkers have quite the mark-up from the increased Weapon Skill, Attacks, and Furious Charge. Each decrement is likewise 1pt basic and -1 per interacting decrement.

I had a post way in the past where I showed that Chaos Space Marine Possessed apparently could be pointed like this, along with Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines.

Guys, I think all they need is plus 1 BS for Terminators, plus 1 WS for their Assault brudda's

Why though? That would overpower them.

You're saying Marines stuck in Terminator armor have the skills of a Captain for shooting?

and the skills of a Chaplain/Librarian/etc. for close combat?

They were made that way so they'd hit Space Marines (and their equivalents) on a 4+ in CC, facilitating the need for a Chaplain or a Captain or so on, meaning the Terminator couldn't simply smash the entire army apart.

and BS5? Isn't BS4 fine already?

Well If terminators (wearing tactical dreadnought Armour) are going to be beefed up so much may suggest ...

Dreadnoughts
5 5 5 6 3 5 2 10 2+4++
Venerable Dreadnoughts
6 6 5 6 4 5 2 10 2+3++
IronClad Dreadnoughts
5 5 5 8 3 5 2 10 2+4++

SR:- FNP, Eternal warrior, MC (relentless, fire two weapons)

So whats wrong with them at the moment?
You see them being used enough by marine players, so that should be an indication that they are fine.

1st company vets are just that.
They either take to the field as sterns, vanguard or wearing TDA.
Dont see why terminator armour should start to increace thier stats ontop of evering they get.

You get a 2+/5++ with a powerfist and stormbolter for 40 points?
Seem elite to me.
Basic marine is 16 points, give him a fist and storm and thats 56 points on its own, not including extra stats and the saves.

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Grey Templar wrote:Marines(not BAs) are not cheezy.

we are perfectly balanced with an even ratio of good, uber and suckish units.


if they made Marines fluffy they would be OTT.

Fluff is written a very large part from Empire perspective, an Empire not given to accurate or unbiased review (I mean, Tau vehicles are named after Empire classifications, for example). There's a large chance that taking the fluff to the next level of meta-thinking, the Marines as portrayed might actually be fairly accurate. Who is to say that heroic victories might actually not have been such heroic ones, but rather the result of massively disproportionate response forces? Empire historians? Not likely.
I will stop my fluff discussion short, there, though, since I truly don't find WH40K fluff to be interesting enough to read much closer than on-a-glance (reviews of a certain Goto keep me from delving deeper into Eldar fluff, especially).

Oh ok... my Wraithguard are even harder to kill than termies (do you know how resilient Wraithbone is...) so i should get a 2+/5++ save too!!
Upping termies to a frankly... slowed level will open a whole can of worms for other armies 'elite' units.

Termies get a 2+ save (in other armies thats usually very rare)
Termies get a 5++/3++ (in most other armies a 3++ is unheard of, a 5++ is hard to get)
Termies get relentless and can access ML and AC (both very good weapons and much better than some armies move+fire weapons)
The entire unit is equipped with PF,LC,TH or PW... (yea... Eldar can get all PW aswell... on a T:3 unit... oh and burna boys but they have a 6+ save)
How good must these be? termies are not 'movie marines' and no unit should be as good as some of the suggestions described on this thread... especially with KP rules (if it was VP, go nuts! at least you pay the price for your unit when it dies)

Termies could be better but then so can many units.

I'll just throw my voice in. I don't have any problem with how terminators perform (other than the fact that my terminators are from codex dark angels and thus don't have the 3++ or better cyclones but they're otherwise very cool). The suggestions from page one don't make sense to me, increased strength, toughness, wounds, or initiative would be wrong. I also just noticed that librarians/chaplains no longer have ws5/bs5 but ws5/bs4 in the 'other' new marine codex's instead of the 5/5 that they used to have.

I feel as though, being veterans in general, they should have either higher ws, or higher bs, or both, compared to tactical marines. GW even reduced the ws/bs of scouts to represent their lower amounts of experience, how then should veterans be represented with their higher amounts of experience? Higher ws/bs does make sense. But could be a bit much considering how other units in different armies all ready compare to terminators and veterans.

I like the idea of them having master crafted equipment available, or perhaps extra "targeting sensors" installed in their terminator/power armor that allows them to reroll hits. Or maybe their extra years of experience means they are better able to use the targeting sensors that they have which represents the reroll.

Its a very touchy subject thought. They are all ready a great unit from my point of view, making them even better isn't really required. But I can understand the feelings behind wanting their extra decades/centuries of experience being represented in their stats or rules or gear.

I can always dream of the day when terminators have special issue ammo for their storm bolters, basically being the same but shooting twice as much being a storm bolter vs a regular bolter.

Why the hell would they be T5? They're still Marines, not some super-entity. Increased WS and BS, I might be able to understand (I disagree with it, but I understand where you're coming from), even increased Initiative I suppose (Though again I disagree, as Terminator armor is not exactly easy to move around in) but increased toughness? No.

Well...plague terminators

Yeah, I agree. I should probably edit the first post now that I realize how stupid some of those things are

Honestly, out of all the possible changes to terminators, making them T4 (5) to represent the sheer bulk of their armor is the most reasonable one I can think of. It works for bikes, after all. Of course, I would require you to do truescale conversions on them, to get that

Samus_aran115 wrote:Well...plague terminators

What about them?

They are a completely separate issue. The fact that they are veterans in TDA isn't what makes them T5.

Monster Rain wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Well...plague terminators

What about them?

They are a completely separate issue. The fact that they are veterans in TDA isn't what makes them T5.

... everyone knows the only way for a space marine to get ...
A) get toughness 5
B) two wounds
... is for him to go up into the mountains and grab a wolf and start riding round on it.

Bromsy wrote:Honestly, out of all the possible changes to terminators, making them T4 (5) to represent the sheer bulk of their armor is the most reasonable one I can think of.

No problem, but they lose the 5++ that they got to represent the bulk.

I could see them with T4(5) and then with a 2+/6++. Then reduce storm shields to a 4+ invulnerable again.

yeah, that 3++ for storm shields has got to go, that was my biggest WTF moment when the new codex came out.

It actually does make sense though. Consider that Captains and Chapter Masters have Iv4+, so Storm Shields would be superfluous. If they scaled back the Iron Halo to Iv5+, then they could scale back the Storm Shield to Iv4+.

Personally I think it would be better if they conferred an Iv5+ or +1 to the unit's existing invulnerable saving throw. The upgrade to a Captain would remain the same, and it would scale nicely.

Nurglitch wrote:so Storm Shields would be superfluous.

...except to models who are not a Captain or Chapter Master (or Chaplain, don't forget the Rosarius).

Van Vets can also take Storm Shields, as can Assault Terminators... both of which benefit greatly from a 3++ save.

Nurglitch wrote:If they scaled back the Iron Halo to Iv5+

Although this isn't an unreasonable solution, but...

Nurglitch wrote:Personally I think it would be better if they conferred an Iv5+ or +1 to the unit's existing invulnerable saving throw. The upgrade to a Captain would remain the same, and it would scale nicely.

I like this solution the best. It would give a 5++ save to anyone without an invuln save, and a 4++ save to Assault Terminators, giving you an actual reason to take TH/SS still, versus with a 5+ save there'd be no use for it.

As noted, the T5 could come from the armor itself, not the veteran marine.

As it is, I've always found Terminator armor to be rather underwhelming, especially in terms of its ability to survive small arms fire, something that it should be almost invulnerable to.

I'd love to see a proper solution, but since GW is never going to put armor save modifiers back in 40K (though they should), I'm not sure what that solution should be!

One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

Of course they go down to small arms fire. Those idiots keep taking off their helmets!

I mean, seriously. You're wearing the man-portable equivalent of tank armor, and you take off your helmet?

Nurglitch wrote:One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

Huh!

I never thought about that - nice solution and it has the added benefit of working within the existing rules too!

Elegant - I like it!

Terminators should have the following in my opinion:

Special Rules:

Honoured Veteran: May reroll all rolls to hit when shooting.

Terminator Armour: May reroll failed NORMAL armour save.

Also Terminators should have Strength 5 to set them apart from normal power armour.

I do think they need to bring back the options for Veteran skills even if you have to pay for them.

5 pts for Tank Hunters of Furious Charge was golden back in 4th.

If Chaos Terminators can take Mark of Khorne (extra attack) Mark of Nurgle (better toughness), Mark of Tzeentch (better Inv Save) and take combi-weapons then normal terminators should get:

Crux Terminatus: 5 ++ save

Crux Argentum: 4 ++ save at cost of 15 pts per model.

Master Crafted Storm Bolters: Firing bolts at AP 3 for 20 points per model.

Wait, CSM termies can purchase ALL marks at once?

Grey Templar wrote:Wait, CSM termies can purchase ALL marks at once?

No, they cannot.

Nurglitch wrote:One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

The basic armor save isn't an issue that needs fixing.

There is enough AP1 & AP2 out there that they'd could have practically unlimited re-rolls of the Sv2+, because they'd never take it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

The basic armor save isn't an issue that needs fixing.

There is enough AP1 & AP2 out there that they'd could have practically unlimited re-rolls of the Sv2+, because they'd never take it.

AP1 and AP2 is found in special and heavy weapons, the number of which a given squad can take is generally limited. The "small arms fire" that Alpharius is referring to is typically mass bolters/lasguns/shuricats/devourers/etc., all of which allow the Terminator an armor save.

But anyone who's rolled armor saves for Terminators can tell you about how many are going to inevitably fail those armor saves.

Hell, just last night I killed three Chaos Terminators in one turn with Missile Pods, which are AP4. Bad rolls happen.

JohnHwangDD:

I agree, but I also disagree with the notion that better Terminators are a good idea in the first place. But I figured out I might get better mileage trying to offer reasonable alternatives to some of the crazy that gets thrown around in threads like these.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Sooo... I guess we can agree that 5 BS and 5 WS would be okay?

No

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

I agree, but I also disagree with the notion that better Terminators are a good idea in the first place. But I figured out I might get better mileage trying to offer reasonable alternatives to some of the crazy that gets thrown around in threads like these.

See, there you have it!

Wait...

Nurglitch wrote:But wait, aren't Terminators taller than regular run-of-the-mill Veterans? Surely that calls for enhanced stats!

They all have the special rule: "watch the door sill...oops too late"

SaintHazard wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:One solution that is consistent with the current rules paradigm would be to allow models equipped with Terminator Armour to re-roll armour saves. In essence you'd get your 2nd edition 3+ on 2D6 back.

The basic armor save isn't an issue that needs fixing.

There is enough AP1 & AP2 out there that they'd could have practically unlimited re-rolls of the Sv2+, because they'd never take it.

AP1 and AP2 is found in special and heavy weapons, the number of which a given squad can take is generally limited.

Bad rolls happen.

When I started in 3E, it was with Eldar fielding I4 DNCCW-armed Wraithlords supported by all the AP2 Starcannons I could muster. When I play Guard, I start with 3 Demolishers backed by as many Plasma and Melta as I can pack into the list, and I would have no shame in turning the dial up to field 6 Demolishers in a "competitive" environment. As far as I'm concerned, the amount of AP1/AP2 available is effectively unlimited compared to the amount of Sv2+ that I might face. If someone wants to test that with a mass Sv2+ army (GKts or Deathwing, I would gladly see that across the board compared to pretty much anything else that I could face).

Indeed, they do. But it's just as easy to get a long string of "good" Sv2+ passed before you hit that "bad" clump.
____

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

I agree, but I also disagree with the notion that better Terminators are a good idea in the first place. But I figured out I might get better mileage trying to offer reasonable alternatives to some of the crazy that gets thrown around in threads like these.

I agree that Termies are OK as-is. Given the silliness in the thread, I'm not sure you'll have much success, but I wish you well in your endeavor!

I was trained as a philosopher: brainstorming solutions to non-existent problems is what I do best.

Why enhance thier stats though?

So what people want is a unit of captains in terminator armour for less points?

I dont see why the suit would increace anything except thier save (which shows the toughness on its own)

Weapon wise they are fine.

Wounds - This will cause problems.
terminators are hard enough to kill at times with a 2+/3+
Why give them another wound?
It will simply become a game of wound allocation with normal termies (chainfists and heavies to change them)
And the storms are still tough.


Fluff means nothing in this discussion.
If you want movie marines, go for it.
Marines have had thier stats scaled down alot to make the playable, without doing that, seems kinda pointless.

Fluff has SOME bearing on the units in the game, otherwise, what's the point?

I do think Terminators need a little something more to justify their points and how relatively easy they are to kill.

But, as always, this may be more of my 2nd Edition legacy than anything else.

Alpharius wrote:Fluff has SOME bearing on the units in the game, otherwise, what's the point?

I do think Terminators need a little something more to justify their points and how relatively easy they are to kill.

But, as always, this may be more of my 2nd Edition legacy than anything else.

T4(5) would work. They are just glorified marines in heavy armor, and this would sustanntially decrease the effectiveness of small arms. But they would have to cost more.

I don't think anyone who's proposing new rules for Terminators here is suggesting the cost remain the same. That's kind of a no-brainer...

But I'm still in the "Terminators are just fine as they are" camp.

Yep

Alph: In fluff, a bloodthirster should be a towering beast capable of laying waste to an entire army on its own.

In game turns he dieswhen flooded by 30 basic ork boyz.


In order to alter termies, you would then have to alter alot more units to bring them up to standards.

That was entirely my point, earlier.

But nobody listened.

Par for the course!

There may be a reason for that...

in my Fluffy marine codex i made Terminators immune to Weapons that were Str3 or less. weapons that always wound on a certain roll are uneffected.

Melissia wrote:Why the hell would they be T5? They're still Marines, not some super-entity. Increased WS and BS, I might be able to understand (I disagree with it, but I understand where you're coming from), even increased Initiative I suppose (Though again I disagree, as Terminator armor is not exactly easy to move around in) but increased toughness? No.

Why are people like this (no offence to you) saying that Terminator Armour is harder to move around in and so should not have the initiative gain. Chaplains, Captains etc can have it and they don't have lower I so why not Terminators? I'm not saying they should but am saying that there is no reason they shouldn't.

If veterans in general gained I across the board, I wouldent see a problem with it. I think the fact that terminator armor stops you from advancing or whatever after winning a combat is good enough to reprisent the bulkyness.

Actually there is a good reason why Terminator squaddies don't have I5 and heroic senior officers like Captains do, because the latter are might heroes.

If you want to play "Movie-Marines" just play a squad of Terminators chosen from the Captain entry in Codex: Space Marines.

Nurglitch wrote:If you want to play "Movie-Marines" just play a squad of Terminators chosen from the Captain entry in Codex: Space Marines.

Actually, that might be an interesting 750-pt game. Go up against Eldar Autarch Aspects and Farseer Warlocks, or Nob Boyz and Warboss Nobz.

Guard, of course, stay as they are.

Might make an interesting 1k game too.

140 pts will get 1 captain with termie armor, PW and SB.

5 Captains in termi armor with SB, and PW 700 pts

1 captain with termi armor, SB and TH 160 pts

Libby with Termie armor and SS 140 pts

1k even


7 models


see how long they last against an ork horde.

i can see a deathwatch mission like this

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:If you want to play "Movie-Marines" just play a squad of Terminators chosen from the Captain entry in Codex: Space Marines.

Actually, that might be an interesting 750-pt game. Go up against Eldar Autarch Aspects and Farseer Warlocks, or Nob Boyz and Warboss Nobz.

Guard, of course, stay as they are.

Actually, I once considered using Nobz models as my Boyz, Warboss models as my Nobz, and a converted WHFB Dire Troll as my Warboss - just to show how much bigger and more badass my Orks are than yours!

With all the normal stats for Boyz and Nobz, of course - and the Warbosses would have to somehow fit on 25mm bases.

Grey Templar wrote:7 models

see how long they last against an ork horde.

i can see a deathwatch mission like this

7 Heroes against an army?

WFB did it in 6E, maybe 7E, too.

It's a classic scenario!

Yes, but you forget, WFB can unfortunately become herohammer, which is stupid.

It's stupid when BL does it, too (and damnit they do it way too much).

well, 8th has made taking more heros easier and Troops are much harder to kill.

If you really want them to be improved as far as within-reason buffs go, I'd add 1 to BS to further represent the more stable firing platform (they can already move and fire as if stationary, which is only helpful with assault cannons and launchers) and leave it at that. If you also want to travel back to the days when their armor save was 3+ on 2D6...they'll be all but immune to everything that isn't a power weapon or has an AP of 1 or 2 (I'd recommend treating their armor as 2+ when comparing it to AP values).

Otherwise, meh. I'm happy with them the way they are, to be honest. Although, with my Chosen Terminators, I gave their Aspiring Champion an Icon of Nurgle, if for no other reason then for the Evulz. There's a reason it costs an extra fifty points, but it usually means that (as mentioned above) little short of concentrated and heavy anti-tank fire will bring them down at range. For every uncommon and unlucky 1, most small arms need either a 5+ or a 6 to actually wound. And for high-power stuff like Battle Cannons, the armor shrugs that off with little problem.

The first problem is that EVERY marine is plagued by 4s. Everything is S4, T4 ect ect. Vets get +1 A and +1LD. A champion is the first time stats start becoming different. Captains don't get any tougher. Hell Calgar is half machine and he's the same toughness and strength. There is a lot of "coulda, shoulda" but over all the codexes work. They will never represent fluff.

When you recall that ordinary civilians are 1s, and mobs are 2s, 4s are actually very good. The problem is that SMs sell too much. If IGs and Conscripts and Rabble were properly common, you'd see just how broken 4s are.

JohnHwangDD wrote:When you recall that ordinary civilians are 1s, and mobs are 2s, 4s are actually very good. The problem is that SMs sell too much. If IGs and Conscripts and Rabble were properly common, you'd see just how broken 4s are.

I understand 4s are good, but I'm saying that the entire lineup being 4s really feels disingenuous when you see a scout is as strong as the chaptermaster.

Sure, and the price for that "feel" is rampant number inflation as we had in 2E. Not sure that's a good thing.

Scouts are an odd case, but the answer is that they're generally just less experienced and lacking their black carapace, not that they're physically less strong.

I had a game today that I thought I'd share.

I was playing CSM, and I gave my terminators MOT. But instead of the invul bonus, I gave them +1 BS (I figured 40 points is about how much it's worth). I have to say, they did way better! Much more fun with 5 BS. They earned their points back in a couple turns or shooting.

Although, yes, I know twin linked basically reduces BS 5 to redundacy


The next game I play, I'll give them +1 WS with MoS or something, and I'll see how it goes. Although, I can't really say I'm happy paying +8 points per model for BS 5.....Maybe like 3 points, seriously.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I had a game today that I thought I'd share.

I was playing CSM, and I gave my terminators MOT. But instead of the invul bonus, I gave them +1 BS (I figured 40 points is about how much it's worth). I have to say, they did way better! Much more fun with 5 BS. They earned their points back in a couple turns or shooting.

Although, yes, I know twin linked basically reduces BS 5 to redundacy


The next game I play, I'll give them +1 WS with MoS or something, and I'll see how it goes. Although, I can't really say I'm happy paying +8 points per model for BS 5.....Maybe like 3 points, seriously.

>_< BS5 is good TLBS5 is god damn unreal. I'll list in ascending order of the odds (Just so they line up neatly I've dropped BS when its a TL gun)
BS1 16.6%
TL1 30.3%
BS2 33.3%
BS3 50%
TL2 55.5%
BS4 66.6%
TL3 75%
BS5 83.3%
BS6 86.1%
TL4 88.8% (or BS7)
BS8 91.6%
BS9 94.4%
TL5 97.2% (or BS10)
... I really don't think you should have TL BS5 on a model its just way too over powered.

I gak you not, I have put a TL Lascannon on a Ven Dread, and actually managed to roll two 1s in a row, two turns in a row.

Needless to say, I was angry.

He's toting an assault cannon now.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's really not worth it on CSM terminators, but on Loyalists, it would still be pretty broke

I was thinking of doing something dumb...x5 terminators, all of them are champions, all of them have mark of khorne, all of them have double claws.

That's 5 TL attacks on the charge! WS 5 would be overkill, and probably wasted points.

SaintHazard wrote:I ship you not, I have put a TL Lascannon on a Ven Dread, and actually managed to roll two 1s in a row, two turns in a row.

Needless to say, I was angry.

He's toting an assault cannon now.

those dice ... they should be put to one side for making Leadership tests.

They're Venerable Dreadnoughts, not Infallible Dreadnoughts.

i agree with the plus 1 wound on the terminators. possibly the plus 1 Toughness.

but everything else would be a bit too much to give them considering the equipement that they can take.

i only agree with the +1W because im tired of taking 5 Deathwing terminators at 215 points to have them die from one failed save from shooting. i think alot of people would agree thet the armour they are wearing should provide at least a nulified impact from the shot even if it penetrates there armour.

Regards

I dont think they should get +T or +W because that would be silly, if your saying that terminators should be T5 because they are elite warriors, then what should a spacemarine captain be? or calgar? or any other tough space marine character that are all still t4, at the end of the say.. they are just space marines.

How about we don't have a 2+ save?..

W4 B4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld9 3+/5++

...Sure that means that Krak missiles can instant death them with only a 5++ but some how that seems fair.

Or why don't you have a 3+ save that's invulnerable.

yeh that would mean you're now

WS4 BS4 STR4 T4 W2 I4 A2 LD9 3+/3+

but tbh that just makes them tougher marines that always get a normal marine save. hmm

Super tactical dreadnought armour?

Isn't that a dreadnought?


Har har har

hmmmmm

Don't change their saves,

just have them able to reroll to hit when shooting and in combat.

If chaplain is with them then his rule becomes reroll to wound!

Reroll to wound Thunder Hammers.. ouch

I fail to see why people think that they actually NEED improvement... especially C:SM assault terminators, they're quite cheap and powerful for what they do.

It's simple.

They don't live up to the hype of being the ultimate infantry you can field as a SM or CSM

What better equipped infantry units do the Space Marines have?

that is part of the problem.


Fluff wize Terminators should be 2 wounds, WS and BS6 and T5.

normal marines would be 1 wound, WS and BS5.


but then again Fluff =/= game

Uh, why should they be "be 2 wounds, WS and BS6 and T5"? How are those number justified by the background?

Nurglitch wrote:Uh, why should they be "be 2 wounds, WS and BS6 and T5"? How are those number justified by the background?

+1

If anyone's terminators should be along those lines... i'd say chaos is more deserving then ANY SM ones.

CSM:
"Hail False god follower. To get my +1 (insert stat here), I had to sell my soul and dedicate my life to a dark chaos god. I have also physically been fighting longer then you, or your father have been alive! I have sacked entire city's and razed entire planets in the name of the dark gods!!! My base cost is high, and to upgrade my +1 I pay even a higher premium! What have you done?"

SM:
"Well, um.... I AM the poster child of games workshop."

CSM: "......"

Corennus wrote:Or why don't you have a 3+ save that's invulnerable.

That's an Assault terminator only option ...

Corennus wrote:It's simple.

They don't live up to the hype of being the ultimate infantry you can field as a SM or CSM

That's because the hype is stupid, not because they unit is bad. The unit is awesome.

Marines are not gods upon the battlefield (in fluff OR in tabletop). But terminators get pretty damn close (again, in both), given that you have to use a friggin' lascannon or meltagun to get through their armor, and even then there's their storm shield and refractor field.

*waves hands like a madman*

If we're upgrading Termies for this magical fluff value - can we upgrade the other virtual termies?

MANZ might want some love.
Then there's those bodyguard suit people the Tau have....

Just saying before you add those extra wounds - check out those that aren't named SPACE MARINEs and identify their counterparts.

and yet Battlesuits somehow have 2 wounds even though they are piloted by FWs.

Yeah, they're also Dreadnought sized and only have T4 Sv3+...

Just putting it out there that the big Ts aren't just named Terminators.

SaintHazard wrote:I propose that my Chaos Daemons all get S100, WS50,000, and I15, and a -1+ invuln save. Also, FNP. Twice.

If we're going to start defining our statlines based on fluff, I will accept nothing less.

This made me lol... Thanks, Hazard.

But in all seriousness, I do agree that Terminators are just fine the way they are. If you go around changing the Veterans' stats based on fluff alone, then you're looking at almost a complete overhaul of the SM Codex.

Grey Templar wrote:but then again Fluff =/= game

The problem is that fluff =/= fluff. That stuff is all over the shop, depending on who the book is focussed on. If it's a marine book then the marine protagonists will slaughter incredible numbers of mooks, each marine worth a hundred of anything else. But if it's a guard book, marines are pulled way back in power levels.

sebster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:but then again Fluff =/= game

The problem is that fluff =/= fluff. That stuff is all over the shop, depending on who the book is focussed on. If it's a marine book then the marine protagonists will slaughter incredible numbers of mooks, each marine worth a hundred of anything else. But if it's a guard book, marines are pulled way back in power levels.

Don't know orks seem to be doing well across the board, sure they die a bit but seem to be enjoying it as much as winning.

Hey, if they're all dead, it don't count as beat!

The only terminators that I even see worthy of ANY upgrades are the CSM and the DA (excluding GK from comparisons). I mean c'mon, the CSM have been fighting for millena and sacrificed their souls. And the DA, well their book says that the first company fights in nothing BUT termi armor,which in my book would make them superior to C:SM termis. Even then maybe just a BS/WS up for the DA or some cool DA rule, and continue the uber-iworshipagod-ness for the CSM with a BS/WS up maybe.

You know, instead of improving the terminator assault and terminator squads, I'd suggest adding in either some kind of terminator command squad or terminator honor guard unit. Their 'elite among elite among elite among elite' status could allow for some stat boosting or special gear options. Like terminators with relic sword and storm bolter. Unit leader has 3 attacks. Options for special issue ammo for their storm bolters, maybe some combi-weapon options. Or bring back the vet skill options just for this squad. There are lots of cool things they could do with a terminator honor guard/command squad.

Maybe give them Slow and Purposeful. That would improve them, and make them a little more like what they look like. Since it is kind of a drawback and bonus at the same time. Heck, give them some kind of lower initiative too if you want better armor. That gak's supposed to be clunky.

Terminators all ready have relentless, which is what slow and purposeful gives as a bonus. So giving them slow and purposeful in addition to that would just be a way to tone them down.

Ah you got my point then. Sorry but I just don't see something that clunky able to 'run' very fast. Their clunkiness should imply a low initiative (though their weapons already do that for the most part) but if you want their armor to be better, I think its only fair to make it slower.

Their slowness or bulkyness is currently represented by being unable to sweeping advance after an enemy flees from combat. But I can understand wanting some other kind of penalty added on if they gain some other kind of benefit.

It would be preferable to unify the rules that represent being slow and clunky. Though it would be better if Slow and Purposeful was like what Terminators have instead of what it currenty is, somewhat because it makes no difference to them to cross difficult terrain, but also because it makes them vulnerable to Combat Tactics without requiring the implementation of actual tactics to pull it off successfully (such as using a Walker to lock the enemy down while the squad Falls Back).

Okay make them T5 W2 with a 2+(5++save) Just cost them like an obliterator with Mark of Nurgle thrown on top of the unit cost and I will throw in the WS5.

Let's see 75 for an oblit and 50 pts for MoN? So a squad of 5 costs 425. At that rate you can have the heavy weapon for "free." So you can have super termies but then they are a significant hit on your FoC.

Sadly I have come to realise that there's no room for any kind of background related improvement within the confines of 40k today - even by increasing their base wounds by a mere 1 point (which I'd argue background wise isn't out of the question for Marines in general) - you'd be effectively doubling the ammount of damage/lastability of such an Elite unit. Simply beefing something up and then adding points is something that would cause statistical tremors across the board. If we did it to one thing we'd have to escalate it to others - all those Chaos Terminators would have to improve, then maybe all Chaos Lords should receive an additional wound (especially if we equipped them with Terminator armour) giving them the same wounds as a Hive Tyrant or a Bloodthirster - which can't be right?

As it stands terminators are veteran marines and no more than that - so why should we adjust Toughness, Strength & wounds to their base and not to other Marines? Because of their armour? They get a 2+ 5++ anyway to represent this. I now personally feel that if were true to the background they could reasonably be S&T 4(5) maybe with additional WS and or BS, even possibly a wound - but there's simply no room in the game as it is to make that improvement without suitably escalating other material.

Asherian Command wrote: Terminators are alot taller than their power armored brethren and have been serving for centuries.
Space Marines as they age get stronger, bigger, and alot more intellegent.

True to a point, because a marine wears Terminator does not mean that he has served the Chapter for centuries though, the fluff states that only acts of near suicidal bravery grants a marine access to the First Company and thus the right to wear TDA. There is no implication within the statement that length of service has any bearing on a marine's initiation into the First Company.

the reason is if you collected SM with those stats your army would cosist of 5 marines for about 1500 points...

warspawned wrote: As it stands terminators are veteran marines and no more than that - so why should we adjust Toughness, Strength & wounds to their base and not to other Marines? Because of their armour? They get a 2+ 5++ anyway to represent this. I now personally feel that if were true to the background they could reasonably be S&T 4(5) maybe with additional WS and or BS, even possibly a wound - but there's simply no room in the game as it is to make that improvement without suitably escalating other material.

Agreed, as Warspawned says the effects would have to be replicated, consider a marine against a guardsman, marines are supposed to live through almost anything, yet both have only one wound, it has to represented in more than just give marines an extra wound. marine or not if your armour fails then dead is dead for a human, super-duper or not.