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Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 02:40:18


Post by: Darth Bob


I have a question regarding Grey Knight Heroes and them joining non-Grey Knight units. If a Grey Knight Hero joins a non-Grey Knight unit and the opponent declares a Psychic Power is being used against the unit which he is a part of, are you still capable of using The Aegis special rule since he is a member of the unit being targeted? Will this also work with The Shrouding?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 03:35:37


Post by: calypso2ts


Is the power targeting a unit of Grey Knights?

If not, then no you cannot use Aegis/Shrouding.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 09:28:13


Post by: nosferatu1001


As above.

As soon as a non-GK [thing] joins or is joined by a GK [thing], the unit cannot be considered a GK-unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 09:32:47


Post by: yakface


nosferatu1001 wrote:As above.

As soon as a non-GK [thing] joins or is joined by a GK [thing], the unit cannot be considered a GK-unit.



I think the only exception to this would be a power that specifically targets the Grey Knight character within the unit (like Mind War), as the Aegis also identifies that it works when a Grey Knight character is targeted.





Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 09:33:30


Post by: nosferatu1001


Fair enough - should always mention the exceptions! Vindicare would be the same, if targetting the GK IC.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 17:18:12


Post by: Grey Templar


but if it's targeting the unit it is also targeting any ICs joined to it.

therefor i would say he gets his Aegis rule.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 17:45:57


Post by: nosferatu1001


Sigh. No, no they wouldnt.

THey are targetting a non-GK unit. How do you know this? Because the unit isnt ENTIRELY composed of GKs. So when the Aegis rule tells you to apply this rule when you are targetting a unit of GKs, attempting to apply the rule when the unit isnt a GK unit is cheating.

So no, no Aegis rule.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 17:54:33


Post by: calypso2ts


Exactly as Nos and Yak said, thanks for catching the 'model specific' powers.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/13 19:02:44


Post by: Gwar!


Exactly!

The rule says it works if you are targeting Grey Knights, not "Grey Knights and some other things".

For the same reason that a Storm Bolter isn't a Bolter, "Grey Knights and some other things" is not the same as "Grey Knights".


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/14 04:10:14


Post by: ChrisCP


Doesn't that run against the line of reasoning for a couple of arguments at the monment thou reguarding 'the IC becomes part of the unit'?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/14 04:12:35


Post by: Gwar!


ChrisCP wrote:Doesn't that run against the line of reasoning for a couple of arguments at the monment thou reguarding 'the IC becomes part of the unit'?
What arguments?

The IC counts as part of the unit for the purposes of movement and shooting, but doesn't actually BECOME part of the unit. The same way that pivoting is technically movement but doesn't count as movement yada yada yada.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/14 04:58:53


Post by: ChrisCP


Not sure, but I think Snikt might be an example. It's just made my bump itch that's all.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/14 05:09:32


Post by: Gwar!


Snikrot isn't an IC at all, he is an Upgrade Character.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/14 06:45:51


Post by: ChrisCP


Yeah I know that =) But it's just made me start rifling my head for interactions.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 05:49:21


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Gwar! wrote:Exactly!

The rule says it works if you are targeting Grey Knights, not "Grey Knights and some other things".

For the same reason that a Storm Bolter isn't a Bolter, "Grey Knights and some other things" is not the same as "Grey Knights".


Then why does a storm bolter count as a bolt weapon in the exact codex where this is an issue (see Psycannon bolts)

The wording of Shrouding says that whenever a unit of GKs is targeted, make the dice rolls to reduce the range.

not, whenever a unit of GKs (And ONLY GKs, NOTHING ELSE) is targeted.

So, say a unit of Summoned Lesser Daemons is joined by a CSM IC (non daemon) and they are within 2" of an inquisitor who then casts Sanctuary. The Daemons must treat the 3" radius as Impassible, but the IC does not (necessarily, for our purposes, lets say its a sorcerer). The daemons are also still a "Unit of daemons" and as such, if the unit wished to assault, they would have to make a difficult terrain test (as the sorcerer must go as slow as his unit) and some of them WOULD be able to place attacks on the inquisitor (as they could be within 2 inches of the sorcerer and thus be out of the Sanctuary zone and within range of assisting the sorcerer).

The above is true because the unit which contains the IC (a Unit of NON-Daemons) and the Unit of Daemons is a COMBINATION of units and as such, rules which apply to certain units sill apply to their respective units.

So, a unit with 3 Sanguinary Priests, 10 Death Company, Astorath the Grim and Greyknight Grandmaster is such

A Unit of Grey Knights (the GKGM)
A Unit of Sanguinary Priests (The 3 priests)
A unit of Death Company
AND
Astorath the Grim (or, a Unit of Reclusiarchs (sp?) )

So rules which apply to individual groupings, would apply to each... so If I am a Long Fang wanting to fire krack Missiles at a unit of Sanguinary Gaurd with a GK:Hero and a Sanguinary Priest. Because I am firing at a Unit of Grey Knights (as one of the units in the "Multi-Character unit") I must roll for the Shrouding.

Aegis on the other hand, is less clear-cut. I'd say Aegis only works if the character himself is targeted (much like how Karn's blessing of the blood god works) as there is no such thing as a "Grey knight Squad". For this kind of Psychic defense, I would reccomend giving your "Hero" Unguents of Warding.

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 08:25:42


Post by: nosferatu1001


I am not targetting the GKs, I am targetting the GK+[other]

No shrouding.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 13:05:57


Post by: Gwar!


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Then why does a storm bolter count as a bolt weapon in the exact codex where this is an issue (see Psycannon bolts)
What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't say that a Storm Bolter is a Bolter, it says Psycannon Bolts may be used in a Storm Bolter...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 16:56:46


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:I am not targetting the GKs, I am targetting the GK+[other]

No shrouding.


Targeting the GKs + others is also Targeting a GK.

Thus Shrouding.

You are assuming exclusivity, which does not follow "And" logic, but "And Only if" logic. As a unit consiting of a GKGM + Non GKS is both a GK AND not a GK you would follow both.

Also, prior precedence would state that without specifying (which they have had about 5 FAQ printings if they really wanted to state otherwise) that the unit MUST contain ONLY GKs (See Tau: Stealthsuits) it would be more logical to follow the practice of "If 1 GK then Shrouding". Similarly, if >0 GKs in a unit , Daemons must ALWAYS take a Difficult Terrain Test when assaulting the unit containing said GK(s), and the GK player would be able to use Aegis on such abilities that specifically target his GK characters (such as "Gift of Chaos" for an example)

@Gwar

I figured you had made a typo and meant to say "A Storm Bolter isn't a Bolt weapon". I have no idea what relevance the statement of "For the same reason that a Storm Bolter isn't a Bolter, "Grey Knights and some other things" is not the same as "Grey Knights". " Unless you are saying that "Not all models are GreyKnights" or "Not all GreyKnights are space marines" I mean, considering your "example" one could say."While a storm bolter is not a bolter, if a model with a storm bolter is in a unit with bolters then it would still be able to use the rules for a storm bolter".

Much like, if an inquisitor with the "Targeter" wargear joins a unit of Purgation, the wargear "Targeters" still functions.

I would simply like some references/sources for the people arguing that #1 Units must be ENTIERLY GK in order to gain the benefit of shrouding and/or #2 Where in the rule book that it states that ICs lose their "Original Army" type or "Codex Special rules" when they join an other unit... all I have seen is that "Special Rules with an * are lost by any IC/Unit Joined by IC without the special rules and that "Special rules that are unique to the Character/Unit are not conferred to joining/joined Units. This however, does not necessarily imply that they are lost (moreso that they remain, but are not shared by the rest of the unit, for example, Fire Control (on long fangs)) and as the Shrouding is not 'lost' and a unit of GKs is attached to the "Unit of anythingelse" if you are targeting the "Unit of anything else" then you are targeting the "Unit of GKs" and must roll for shrouding.

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 17:00:01


Post by: kirsanth


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Targeting the GKs + others is also Targeting a GK.
So, for example, A Tyranid Prime can join a Hive Tyrant?

I know that Gwar! says no to that one, for what amounts to the same reason he gave for the targeting--as I read it.

If you think "Yes" to my question then there is basically no reason to keep going; there will be no agreement unless you change your mind.


heh


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 17:00:32


Post by: don_mondo


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:I am not targetting the GKs, I am targetting the GK+[other]

No shrouding.


Targeting the GKs + others is also Targeting a GK.

Thus Shrouding.

~DAR


Again, no. It's targeting a unit that contains a GK, not target ing GK unit. The rule is quite specific about that. And tehy were discussing the Aegis suit, not shrouding, but neither would apply.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 17:06:38


Post by: calypso2ts


This one has been beaten to death, but the argument still stands that a unit with an attached GK IC, is not a 'unit of GK's.'


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 17:50:06


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


don_mondo wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:I am not targetting the GKs, I am targetting the GK+[other]

No shrouding.


Targeting the GKs + others is also Targeting a GK.

Thus Shrouding.

~DAR


Again, no. It's targeting a unit that contains a GK, not target ing GK unit. The rule is quite specific about that. And tehy were discussing the Aegis suit, not shrouding, but neither would apply.


This is where we seem to disagree.

The rule states, Verbatim:

The Shrouding
The combined psychic prayers of Grey Knights are focused in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution. Each time and enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them. Roll 3d and multiply the result by 3...


Nothing says "If the Grey Knight has joined(or has been joined by) a unit of Non-Grey Knights, this rule does not apply.

Much like how Ragnar Blackmane has the ability to give all space wolf units within 12" furious charge (once per game). If a unit of Wolf guard joined by a GKGM would be in range of this ability, the Wolf Guard would gain Furious Charge, and the GKGM would not.
Wolf Priest Ulrik allows units of Space Wolves to reroll morale checks if they can draw line of sight to him. If a unit of Space Wolves is joined by say... an inquisitor, the unit would be able to reroll its moral check as it is a unit that contains space wolves.

@Calypso
I really don't see how the argument stands if there is no backing other then "I Said So" to keep it standing...

To me, this just seems like an exploitation due to old wording and should be Errated (either way) Because based on the current logic, a GKGM would not be able to join a squad of Blood Angels Assault Termis if they are arriving via teleportation as the GKGM has the "Grey Knight special rule: Deep Strike" as opposed to the "Mission Special Rule: Deep Strike" and it does not specifically state in the codex that a GK hero and Retinue (or any other unit with the teleportation deepstrike ability) "may be held in Reserve and enter play by Deep Strike" And on that note, there are currently no rules that support joining an Independent Character to a unit during deployment, and having the entire unit arrive together via Deep Strike nor are there any rules that counter being able to place a Blood Angels IC with Jump Pack in a squad of Deep Striking Terminators and benefit from the "Decent of Angels" special rule (The unit must move as slow as posisble, 1d6 is slower then 2d6)...

So yeah...

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 18:39:33


Post by: calypso2ts


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

The Shrouding
The combined psychic prayers of Grey Knights are focused in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution. Each time and enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them. Roll 3d and multiply the result by 3...



The rule is explicit, it is a unit of Grey Knights. When you join a GKGM to IST, is it a unit of Grey Knights? No it is not, it is a unit of IST joined by a GKGM...How is this an opinion question


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Much like how Ragnar Blackmane has the ability to give all space wolf units within 12" furious charge (once per game). If a unit of Wolf guard joined by a GKGM would be in range of this ability, the Wolf Guard would gain Furious Charge, and the GKGM would not.


Okay good we agree, if a unit tries to shoot at only the GKGM, it must test for Shrouding...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Wolf Priest Ulrik allows units of Space Wolves to reroll morale checks if they can draw line of sight to him. If a unit of Space Wolves is joined by say... an inquisitor, the unit would be able to reroll its moral check as it is a unit that contains space wolves.


Same idea as above

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
To me, this just seems like an exploitation due to old wording and should be Errated (either way)


Like GK Force Weapons?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Because based on the current logic, a GKGM would not be able to join a squad of Blood Angels Assault Termis if they are arriving via teleportation as the GKGM has the "Grey Knight special rule: Deep Strike" as opposed to the "Mission Special Rule: Deep Strike" and it does not specifically state in the codex that a GK hero and Retinue (or any other unit with the teleportation deepstrike ability) "may be held in Reserve and enter play by Deep Strike" And on that note, there are currently no rules that support joining an Independent Character to a unit during deployment, and having the entire unit arrive together via Deep Strike nor are there any rules that counter being able to place a Blood Angels IC with Jump Pack in a squad of Deep Striking Terminators and benefit from the "Decent of Angels" special rule (The unit must move as slow as posisble, 1d6 is slower then 2d6)...


For all of the above, pointing out rules problems with other units does not provide justification for making up rules when they are perfectly clear. Unit of GK, not 9 IST with a GKGM...

Edit: Fixed quotes

Edit2: I think most of those examples have RAW clear results, I am just not going to go off and address all of them.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 19:23:45


Post by: SaintHazard


DAR: Allow me to emphasize part of the rule you posted.

"The combined psychic prayers of Grey Knights are focused in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution. Each time and enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them. Roll 3d and multiply the result by 3"

Now, please answer the following question with a "yes" or "no."

Is this "a unit of Grey Knights?"



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 20:55:17


Post by: nosferatu1001


Daemon Archon - if you use AND logic you get:

GK + Other = GK + Not GK = Not GK (with GK =1 and not GK = 0)

The rule explicitly requires you to be Targetting a UNIT of GK

If I target a Unit that does not entirely consist of GK, I am NOT targetting a unit of GK.

It really is as simple as that.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 21:51:10


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


SaintHazard wrote:
Now, please answer the following question with a "yes" or "no."

Is this "a unit of Grey Knights?"



Trick question

It is BOTH a Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers. Therefore if targeting the COMBINED unit, you would have to test for Shrouding based on the Grey Knight unit's special rules.

Show me in the rule book where it says that ICs Change/Lose their unit type when they join a separate unit.

"The rule explicitly requires you to be Targetting a UNIT of GK

If I target a Unit that does not entirely consist of GK, I am NOT targetting a unit of GK."


Main Rule Book: Page 47

Independent Characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right.

Page 48
Special Rules
When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are NOT conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are NOT conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joining the unit. For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate(see the Universal Special Rules section for details).


Sooo....

When a GKGM joins a squad of Assault Marines His special rule of "Grey Knight" is not conferred to the assault marines (nor are the Assault Marines special rules of "Combat Tactics conferred to the GKGM)... but he does not LOSE it, and he is still a "Unit of Grey Knights in his own right " (As per Main Rule Book).

So... if the combined unit of the GKGM and the assault marines is targeted by the Psychic ability "Doom" the GKGM special rule of Aegis is activated (as at least 1 unit of Grey Knights is being targeted by a psychic ability, as per the Aegis ability of the Grey Knights special rule)

If the combined unit of the GKGM and the assault marines are being shot at by war-walkers, the war-walkers must first roll 3d6 and multiply the result by 3 as per "The Shrouding" ability of the Grey Knights special rule as at least 1 unit of Grey Knights (The GKGM, part of the combined unit) is being targeted by an Enemy Unit.


Nothing in the Main rule book contradicts this

Nothing in the Daemonhunters Codex contradicts this

Nothing in the 5th edition FAQ contradicts this

Nothing in ANY of the Daemonhunters FAQs (By GW or INAT, the local FAQ) contradicts this.

So again I ask, sources for your arguments please? (For instance, an example where something in the same light is present and has been ruled to the "A unit with a GK =/= a Unit of GK" argument)

A perfect example of how this works in how I am describing would be the BA Special rule "The Red Thirst". If it didnt work as described above, allied ICs (either Daemonhunter or which hunters) would be subject to the Red Thirst ability (as you all seem to be describing a combined unit as "Only 1 Unit" instead of "Multiple units combined

Again, if there is proof that I am wrong, kudos! That means I learned something! But if the proof isn't there, maybe its time to re-assess this situation, instead of merely shrugging it off as "No, it doesn't work cause I said so, and that guy agrees with me."


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 21:58:23


Post by: Oshova


But if you join a Fearless IC to a non-fearless unit, then the unit doesn't gain fearless (unless it's a Chaplain as they give Fearless to the unit)

So a GK IC joining a non-GK unit, this doesn't make the unit a GK unit, it doesn't give them Shrouding or any other GK specific rules.

Oshova


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 21:59:27


Post by: Gwar!


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Trick question
No, it really isn't.

It is BOTH a Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers. Therefore if targeting the COMBINED unit, you would have to test for Shrouding based on the Grey Knight unit's special rules.
So it's not a "Grey Knights unit" then is it, it's a "Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers".


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:00:41


Post by: SaintHazard


Except that you can't pick out ICs in shooting. Even your own. That's where your argument falls flat.

Yes, that is "a unit of Grey Knight (SINGULAR)" attached to "a unit of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers."

However, what you're suggesting requires you to pick out the "unit of Grey Knight" individually, which basic IC rules explicitly forbid.

Even so, even if we go by your definitions, a "unit of Grey Knight" is not a "unit of Grey Knights."

I propose there must be multiple Grey Knights in the unit for it to be "a unit of Grey Knights." And there's the second part of your argument that falls flat.

It's not a bad argument, it just has a few gaping holes. Namely those above.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:01:31


Post by: calypso2ts


The proof is in the statement itself, it is not a unit of GK's, you need to PROVE it is which you cannot in order to have PERMISSION to use shrouding.

What can you say about the combined unit:

It has 1 GK in it, it has X non-GK

If it is not composed entirely of GK, it is not a unit of GK. End of discussion. It is a unit of 1 GK and X other models.

Special rules, gaining or losing them by joining a unit are COMPLETELY irrelevant. The single model is still a GK, but he is not in a unit of them.

The burden is on you, you can NO MORE PROVE it IS a unit of GK by any of the sources you cited. Therefore, you do not have PERMISSION to use shrouding...

Other examples are completely irrelevant, RT is a BA rule it has no bearing on the DH codex.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:06:27


Post by: Oshova


However, if a unit of GK was joined by a non-GK IC . . . would the unit still get shrouding?

Oshova


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:07:43


Post by: SaintHazard


Oshova wrote:However, if a unit of GK was joined by a non-GK IC . . . would the unit still get shrouding?

Oshova

Nope, because there you're picking out the unit of GK over the non-GK IC. Still illegal.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:09:32


Post by: Gwar!


Oshova wrote:However, if a unit of GK was joined by a non-GK IC . . . would the unit still get shrouding?

Oshova
Nope, because it is no longer a GK unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:09:56


Post by: Oshova


But you're aiming at the unit (not picking out the IC) and the unit has Shrouding. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to find out the truth

Oshova


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:12:00


Post by: Gwar!


Oshova wrote:But you're aiming at the unit (not picking out the IC) and the unit has Shrouding. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to find out the truth

Oshova
No, the models have Shrouding.

Shrouding says "when you shoot at a GREY KNIGHTS UNIT". It's no longer a Grey Knights unit. You still have Shrouding, it just doesn't do anything.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:13:57


Post by: Oshova


Because it's not a GK unit, it's a hybrid unit?

That's cool, so long as I know =]

Oshova


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:15:14


Post by: Melchiour


I think the rules are pretty clear and in agreement with Gwar and others. It says a Grey Knight unit. It does not say a unit which contains grey knights. There is a big difference.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:34:48


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Gwar! wrote:
It is BOTH a Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers. Therefore if targeting the COMBINED unit, you would have to test for Shrouding based on the Grey Knight unit's special rules.
So it's not a "Grey Knights unit" then is it, it's a "Unit of Grey Knights AND a Unit of Storm Troopers".


Therefore, it is a Unit of Grey Knights being targeted by an enemy unit, so the shrouding works. Still no evidence of contrary.

SaintHazard wrote:Except that you can't pick out ICs in shooting. Even your own. That's where your argument falls flat.

Yes, that is "a unit of Grey Knight (SINGULAR)" attached to "a unit of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers."

However, what you're suggesting requires you to pick out the "unit of Grey Knight" individually, which basic IC rules explicitly forbid.


What I am suggesting has nothing to do with "picking out" the IC at all, in fact quite contrary. I am saying that, because the GKGM is part of the unit, and the "Combined unit contains a unit of Grey Knights" you cannot pick out the "unit of assault marines" and ignore the "Shrouding" ability. You must shoot at the entire unit, which hosts a "Unit of Grey Knights" and therefore benefits from "The Shrouding".

SaintHazard wrote:
Even so, even if we go by your definitions, a "unit of Grey Knight" is not a "unit of Grey Knights."


I propose there must be multiple Grey Knights in the unit for it to be "a unit of Grey Knights." And there's the second part of your argument that falls flat.

It's not a bad argument, it just has a few gaping holes. Namely those above.


If there must be multiple Grey Knights present in order for "The Shrouding" to function, then a lone GKGM would not get the benefit of "The Shrouding" which he does.

See the "Grey Knights' Terminology rule on page 20 of the Daemonhunters codex...


calypso2ts wrote:The proof is in the statement itself, it is not a unit of GK's, you need to PROVE it is which you cannot in order to have PERMISSION to use shrouding.

What can you say about the combined unit:

It has 1 GK in it, it has X non-GK

If it is not composed entirely of GK, it is not a unit of GK. End of discussion. It is a unit of 1 GK and X other models.



Actually, where in "The shrouding" does it say that the unit must be ENTIRELY grey knights (or ONLY grey knights for that matter). I propose to you the current example of Tau Stealthsuits which SPECIFICALLY DENOTE IN THEIR ENTRY that the ENTIRE unit must be "Wholly composed of models with Steathsuit armor". "The Shrouding" nor "Aegis" contain any such wording.

calypso2ts wrote:
Special rules, gaining or losing them by joining a unit are COMPLETELY irrelevant. The single model is still a GK, but he is not in a unit of them.


Special rules would be LOST by the GKGM according to your argument, as for the latter sentence. See "Grey Knight Terminiology" on page 20 of the Daemonhunters Codex as well as Page 47 (Independent Characters) of the Main rule book. He is a unit in his own right.

calypso2ts wrote:
The burden is on you, you can NO MORE PROVE it IS a unit of GK by any of the sources you cited.


I think I just did... also, the wording of "Combined Unit" brings to question why you do not consider a "Combined Unit" a "Combination" of Unit A and Unit B (therefor, would be both)

calypso2ts wrote:
Other examples are completely irrelevant, RT is a BA rule it has no bearing on the DH codex.


Its called precedence and consistency and requiring a NEED for a rule CHANGE (which this would be, based on my evidence and the opposing arguments lack of evidence) but by all means, the rules are Guidelines, so feel free to play them as you may. I figured that in YMDC however, justification (such as evidence) is preferred to sheer statement.


Oshova wrote:But if you join a Fearless IC to a non-fearless unit, then the unit doesn't gain fearless (unless it's a Chaplain as they give Fearless to the unit)


THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT! The USR Fearless SPECIFICALLY states that ICs do not normally confer fearless to a unit (however, a fearless unit confers the fearless rule to a non-fearless IC that joins it strangely enough) ... AND NOT BECAUSE OF ARBITRARY 'GUESSING' but because the rule SPECIFICALLY (and exclusively, its a rather unique USR) states that it functions this way! Neither "The Shrouding" nor "Aegis" have wording similar to how FEARLESS work, nor do they state that they are LOST by a non-GK being combined to a Unit of GKs!

I'm glad someone else finally sees what I'm saying......
Oshova wrote:
So a GK IC joining a non-GK unit, this doesn't make the unit a GK unit, it doesn't give them Shrouding or any other GK specific rules.

Oshova


Wait... you took the conversation about Special rules (and USRs) and then used that as justification for why Combined units are "not combined"... There is no such thing as a "Unit Type: Fearless" nor are there any sections of a codex that described "Fearless Units" terminology...

Again, I request some sort of evidence for the now 2 major counterpoints to why a GKGM(Or any GK Unit for that matter) Joined by a "Non-GK" unit would lose its special ability "The Shrouding" or "Aegis" (Or ANY of the GK special rules/abilities, BESIDES FEARLESS AS FEARLESS WAS ERRATA'D, for that matter).

Just to keep everyone on the same page, those two arguments are...

"When a Unit is combined (via the IC special rule) it is no longer its original unit "combined" with another unit, but some new kind of unit alltogether"

And/or

"The Grey Knights special rules REQUIRE the ENTIRE unit to be a part of the GK Terminology (as described on page 20 of CH) for ANY part of the unit to benefit from the GK special rules."



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:41:06


Post by: nosferatu1001


There is ONE unit, ONE and ONE only. See the rules for ICs joining units - they are not a seperat unit at all.

The rules for shooting REQUIRE that you target A SINGLE UNIT. When I target the GK+Non+GK unit, singular, I am targetting the combined unit - not any componnents of such.

As such no shrouding applies.

The words "entire" or "entirely" do not need to be in there, as the rule requires a UNIT OF GK -> If you have a unit of [GK+nonGK] you do not have a unit of GK. Its really that simple.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:46:57


Post by: kirsanth


nosferatu1001 wrote:The words "entire" or "entirely" do not need to be in there
Again?!?!?!



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 22:51:02


Post by: nosferatu1001


Yep: Apparently people just cant help adding requirements, or demanding they be there, when no such requirement is there in order for the rule to function as stated.

You are asked that you are a unit of GK; a unit of [GK+others] is most demonstrably NOT a unit of GK (and if you disagree you don't understand what "join" means, nor have you read ALL of the ICs rules where, after combat, it states he rejoins the unit as a normal member] and as such shrouding does not apply.

The special rule isnt lost, you just canot fulfill the requirement while you are in a combined unit with non-GK models. ANd thats RAW.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 23:14:08


Post by: calypso2ts


I never said it lost the rule, it has the rule, the rule just does nothing.

It is like having ATSKNF and Fearless...

Your entire argument is predicated upon a specific definition you created for combined units with an implied set of properties. It is a Frankenstein's monster constructed through the selective inclusion of other Codices (i.e. Blood Angels) and BRB entries that have no relevance unless examined within the context of your self created rules distinction of a 'combined' unit.

You cannot prove, using valid DH codex and BRB entries that a unit including a single GK is a unit of GK themselves.

Further, this construct of a combined unit is based on the fallacy that a set C, containing elements of A and B, can be interchangeably labeled as both A and B.

When I bake a cake I have a combined ingredients of eggs, flour and sugar but my wife would kill me if I fed my children cake for breakfast and claimed it was eggs.

The fallacy of your argument is irrelevant, however, since the entire construct is an invention of your own personal ruleset.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 23:34:42


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:There is ONE unit, ONE and ONE only. See the rules for ICs joining units - they are not a seperat unit at all.

The rules for shooting REQUIRE that you target A SINGLE UNIT. When I target the GK+Non+GK unit, singular, I am targetting the combined unit - not any componnents of such.

As such no shrouding applies.

The words "entire" or "entirely" do not need to be in there, as the rule requires a UNIT OF GK -> If you have a unit of [GK+nonGK] you do not have a unit of GK. Its really that simple.


Your missing the point.

"The rules for shooting require that you target a SINGLE unit."

A "Combined" unit is a single unit, but it is also (in terms of unit type) multiple units. For example, a Chaos lord in terminator armor accompanied by a bunch of raptors (not saying you SHOULD do this, but you can) is One unit, but it is also a GROUP of both unit types of Infantry and Jump Infantry. Two Units becoming 1. Same way with when you take a unit of Space wolves and accompany them with a Cannoness, they are 1 Combined unit, but they are also a Unit of Witch Hunters and a unit of Space wolves.

When you declare fire on the Combined unit you must take into consideration all of the special rules of the "Multi-Unit" (I.E. The Shrouding) so, if the special rules of the Grey Knight Unit prevents the Combined unit from being seen, then the combined unit may not be fired on.

Much like if Typhus is joined by a retinue of termis, and is assaulted, even though he is in a combined uni (a unit with Blight grenades, and one that does not contain them) the enemies do NOT gain their bonus attacks for charging.

Much like if you have an Archon joined to a squad of mandrakes, and if he is assaulted, the Mandrakes shadowskinned special rule require the assaulting unit to take a difficult terrain test, if they fail to reach the unit of Mandrakes, they fail to reach the Combined unit of the Archon and the Mandrakes.

I really don't see how this is so confusing...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
calypso2ts wrote:

You cannot prove, using valid DH codex and BRB entries that a unit including a single GK is a unit of GK themselves.





Oops

And actually, for good measure
calypso2ts wrote:
When I bake a cake I have a combined ingredients of eggs, flour and sugar but my wife would kill me if I fed my children cake for breakfast and claimed it was eggs.


When you are allergic to eggs(The shrouding rule for GKs-From the GKGM), and you make a cake with eggs, flour and sugar (including the GKGM, a WGBL, and a unit of WolfGuard) are you no longer allergic to the meal? According to you, it is no longer eggs, but is now Cake, so the allergy should not bother you...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 23:44:41


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


You'll note that it doesn't say GK + anything else. That list is an exhaustive list, so unless you have some rule that allows you to say that a GK hero + some other non-GK unit still is just a GK hero then you have just proven yourself wrong.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/23 23:57:15


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Leo_the_Rat wrote:You'll note that it doesn't say GK + anything else. That list is an exhaustive list, so unless you have some rule that allows you to say that a GK hero + some other non-GK unit still is just a GK hero then you have just proven yourself wrong.


Then why does the Tau codex SPECIFICALLY state the ENTIRE unit must be wearing stealth-suits to gain the range rule.

Why does the Witch Hunter codex specifically state that Acts of Faith (etc) are LOST when joining a non-sisters unit.

There are more examples of "Unit-wide"(as opposed to individual character specific) special rules that require wording to PROHIBIT their ability being shared then those that are to be ASSUMED prohibited (which is what is being done with the whole GreyKnight special rules set).


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 00:12:43


Post by: hemingway


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:There is ONE unit, ONE and ONE only. See the rules for ICs joining units - they are not a seperat unit at all.
...

I really don't see how this is so confusing...



It's not that confusing. Your argument is completely lucid and viable.

The rule for The Shrouding probably *should* read "each time an enemy unit fires at units with Grey Knights..." to reduce confusion. But it seems pretty ridiculous to argue if a GKGM can't be seen or targeted by enemy units or psychic powers due to his remarkable abilities, then all of a sudden, if he's close to some guardsmen, he suddenly becomes visible and his remarkable abilities just vanish.

It's more likely that the stormtroopers are able to 'hide behind' him because of his godlike powers, including the psychic protection of the Aegis.




Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 00:28:50


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


hemingway wrote:There is ONE unit, ONE and ONE only. See the rules for ICs joining units - they are not a seperat unit at all.




I agree with this! ENTIRELY!

Here is the part where the divide seems to lay.

I say:

"When an Unit joins a Unit (ICs are Units, as per the IC rules), you get a One "Combined Unit" but in that combined unit, the individual units (Or "Meta-Unit" for lack of better term) still retains its special rules UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE"

And because of that statement:

As the Grey Knight special rule does NOT state that it is lost when a unit of grey knights joins another unit, the Meta-Unit of Grey Knights (which still exists within the "Combine Unit") is still subject to its special rules (Such as Aegis, Shrouding and Rites of Exorcism to name a few) so as a member of the Combined unit cannot be seen, and you CANNOT specifically target the part of the unit you CAN see (as they are not subject to shrouding) then you are UNABLE to fire upon the unt!

The Other side says:

"When an IC joins a Unit (An IC is not a unit, even thought the rules for ICs specify that it IS a unit in its own right...) it become a Hybrid unit that is no longer any of the original "units" it was before joining.

And because of that statement:

A unit that has a GK in it and a Non-GK is no longer a "Unit of GKs" (as described on page 20 of CH) and does not gain the benefits of Unit-Specific GreyKnight Special rules.

BEAR IN MIND!!! If the above is also true, then a GKGM (Or any hero for that matter) that joins a squad/has a retinue of even ENTIRELY GREY KNIGHTS would also not gain these benefits as the "Grey Knights' Terminology rule has no mention of the IC special rule or combined units, and neither do the Grey Knight special rules. (If "Combined Unit" is no longer a unit of the original type, then "Combined Units(even if entirely composed of "Grey Knight units")" are not "Grey Knight" units, and I challenge you to find where in the book it says they are)


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 00:36:55


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:You'll note that it doesn't say GK + anything else. That list is an exhaustive list, so unless you have some rule that allows you to say that a GK hero + some other non-GK unit still is just a GK hero then you have just proven yourself wrong.


Then why does the Tau codex SPECIFICALLY state the ENTIRE unit must be wearing stealth-suits to gain the range rule.

Why does the Witch Hunter codex specifically state that Acts of Faith (etc) are LOST when joining a non-sisters unit.

There are more examples of "Unit-wide"(as opposed to individual character specific) special rules that require wording to PROHIBIT their ability being shared then those that are to be ASSUMED prohibited (which is what is being done with the whole GreyKnight special rules set).


I believe that the rules say you can't use a Faith Point if a Faithful IC joins a non-faithful unit. So you can't even use it on units like Sisters Repentia or Exorcists since these are not faithful units. Can't use is different from lost. This also goes to the point that you can't mix special rule and non special rules units and take advantage of the special rules without a specific exception.
The Tau codex was written under a different edition's rule set so of course the wording would be different as well.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 00:41:41


Post by: SaintHazard


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:You'll note that it doesn't say GK + anything else. That list is an exhaustive list, so unless you have some rule that allows you to say that a GK hero + some other non-GK unit still is just a GK hero then you have just proven yourself wrong.


Then why does the Tau codex SPECIFICALLY state the ENTIRE unit must be wearing stealth-suits to gain the range rule.

Why does the Witch Hunter codex specifically state that Acts of Faith (etc) are LOST when joining a non-sisters unit.

There are more examples of "Unit-wide"(as opposed to individual character specific) special rules that require wording to PROHIBIT their ability being shared then those that are to be ASSUMED prohibited (which is what is being done with the whole GreyKnight special rules set).

Because they are the Tau codex and the WH codex, which have how much bearing on the DH codex?

Oh, right. None.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 00:42:48


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
This also goes to the point that you can't mix special rule and non special rules units and take advantage of the special rules without a specific exception.
The Tau codex was written under a different edition's rule set so of course the wording would be different as well.


Actually, this goes to the point that you CAN mix special rule and none special rule units and take advantage of the special rules UNLESS there is a specific exception (such as the SPECIFIC EXCEPTION that non-faithful + faithful = can't use faith abilities).

The main rule book AGREES with this notion by only listing USRs that are LOST as opposed to listing ones that are RETAINED (it acually states that they ARE retained unless SPECIFICALLY STATED OTHERWISE)

Where is the statement that Grey Knights lose the shrouding when joining other units?



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 00:43:23


Post by: calypso2ts


I am not disputing that the individual is a grey knight, he clearly is you just proved the GKGM is a grey knight - yeah, no duh.

What that list does not say is a unit with a GK and something else is a 'Grey Knight,' in fact it proves it isn't because it does not include them in the list. It says the "Following units" are Grey knights, so to be a Grey Knight unit you must be composed of the "following units"

Therefore, it is not a unit of Grey Knights.

Your argument is not confusing, it is simply completely arbitrary and incorrect.

The allergy analogy is complete bunk, your definition of the allergy is the problem. It should be "I am allergic to eggs and products that include eggs in them or egg derived products"

Unfortunately, a grey knight allergy only specifies, in the rulebook, that they are an allergen in their pure form.

There are many reasons why a GKGM -edit sloppy wording- having his shrouding be deactivated, he is with a unit of people who lack the psychic potential, he is not strong enough to shield them so firing at that group means he accidentally gets hit. Further, fluff != rules.

You know what else doesn't equal rules - the completely different rules in other rule books that you are trying to derive general principles from. There are not the kind of general interpretations that can be derived based on another codex's precedent.

Edit:


Where is the statement that Grey Knights lose the shrouding when joining other units?


They do not lose the shrouding, they just fail to meet the conditions required for it to be activated


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 01:17:03


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote:

They do not lose the shrouding, they just fail to meet the conditions required for it to be activated


Here is the difference between the conditions

You say:

Conditions of being a "Unit of Grey knights" = All members of the unit MUST have the GK special rule (nothing supports this)

I say:

Conditions of being a "Unit of Grey Knights" = One or more members of the unit (if it is a combined unit) have the Grey knight special rule.

The Grey Knight special rule is NOT lost when a Unit/Model with it joins a unit that does NOT have it (This is supported by the rules).

If the rule is not lost, then at least part of the unit contains members with the special rule "Grey Knights" (also know as a "Meta-Unit" of Grey Knights) so the Shrouding applies.

JUST LIKE

IF a unit of Possessed Space Marines (which are defined as daemons) are joined by a Chaos sorcerer (not a daemon) they must roll for difficult terrain if they wish to assault a unit with the Grey Knight special rule (Rites of Exorcism specifically) even though they are no longer strictly a "Unit of Daemons" (but a Combined unit of Sorcerer + Daemon) they still contain the "Meta-Unit" of Daemons, and thus the ENTIRE unit are subject to the special rules that should only hinder a small part of the unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 01:22:35


Post by: SaintHazard


Because, and only because, of the SPECIFIC rule requiring the unit to move at the speed of its slowest model.

Which means it doesn't even begin to be a valid comparison.

What you're trying to say is that special rules are shared by ICs when they join a unit, which is specifically not the case.

If your unit of non-GKs gets to benefit from the Shrouding special rule, then any unit I attach my Chapter Master to gets to benefit from the Orbital Bombardment special rule. So if I attach my Chapter Master to a unit of ten Tactical Marines, it effectively allows me to throw eleven Orbital Bombardments at you.

I like playing the game by your made-up rules!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 01:32:16


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I say:

Conditions of being a "Unit of Grey Knights" = One or more members of the unit (if it is a combined unit) have the Grey knight special rule.

The Grey Knight special rule is NOT lost when a Unit/Model with it joins a unit that does NOT have it (This is supported by the rules)
.



Book and page please.

As to your theory that the BRB says that unless marked otherwise a USR is not lost in mixed units again it's a different edition of the rules than the DH codex so that doesn't hold water. The DH errata specifically says that only fearless and infiltrate from the the codex are covered by the USR rules in the BRB. With that in mind there is no way that you can make the claim that shroud should follow the same rules as other USR rules. It is unique to DH and only DH units may use it. You have already given the exculsive list of GH units and mixed units aren't on it. Unless you can find a rule that says that mixed units are considered GH units you have no case to plead.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 01:52:28


Post by: ChrisCP


"Hey Commisar is that a unit of grey knights? Sir."
"Well it might look like one Tbox, but as you can see there's a 'a non-GK IC' leading them"
"Ah why on earth would GK sully themselfs like that? Sir."
"They don't seem to know either, if fact we can see them clearly... Fire!"

*Shrug*
Hope there's not too much heresy in there.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 02:14:18


Post by: Oshova


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Much like if you have an Archon joined to a squad of mandrakes, and if he is assaulted, the Mandrakes shadowskinned special rule require the assaulting unit to take a difficult terrain test, if they fail to reach the unit of Mandrakes, they fail to reach the Combined unit of the Archon and the Mandrakes.


I'm sorry but that's not how Mandrakes work, they just make the unit go last as if the charging unit had gone through difficult terrain, like with Stealth Suits in Tau . . . But this is beside the point and off topic . . .

Oshova


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 02:25:07


Post by: calypso2ts


So the crux of your argument is...

'For a unit to be considered a unit of Grey Knights it must include one or more models with the 'Grey Knights' special rule'

If that is your assertion then I have no rebuttal. However, I would like to sell you a unit of gold. It is mainly lead, but it does have a gold atom in it, thusly making it a unit of gold...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 02:31:09


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


SaintHazard wrote:

What you're trying to say is that special rules are shared by ICs when they join a unit, which is specifically not the case.

If your unit of non-GKs gets to benefit from the Shrouding special rule, then any unit I attach my Chapter Master to gets to benefit from the Orbital Bombardment special rule. So if I attach my Chapter Master to a unit of ten Tactical Marines, it effectively allows me to throw eleven Orbital Bombardments at you.

I like playing the game by your made-up rules!


Not at all!

I am saying, that special rules are not LOST by ICs when they join a unit.

You don't get 11 bombardments, you get 1, by what you are saying, you'd get 0 (Cause the Tac marines DON'T have the Bombardment Special rule, but the IC DOES). Also, you are comparing offensive abilities with limited uses to a static defensive ability.

The only reason "my" (which is ironic, as I play DE/CSM and don't plan on building a DH army anytime soon) non-gk unit benefits from the shrouding special rule is because the unit has a GK in it(or is a squad of GKs joined by a non GK), and the GK(s) itself should not(according to this thread) and does not(according to the rules) lose ITS own protective measures.

Riddle me this?

What else in this game (that I haven't already mentioned, as clearly those examples are not adequate enough to sway your opinions) arises a similar situation then that of the Grey Knights special rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigh...

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Book and page please.


Book: BRB
Page: 48
Section: Special Rules
Line: 4-6

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Unless you can find a rule that says that mixed units are considered GH units you have no case to plead.


So then you would agree that:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
A GKGM (Or any GK hero for that matter) that joins a squad/has a retinue of even ENTIRELY GREY KNIGHTS would also not gain these benefits as the "Grey Knights' Terminology rule has no mention of the IC special rule or combined units, and neither do the Grey Knight special rules. (If "Combined Unit" is no longer a unit of the original type, then "Combined Units(even if entirely composed of "Grey Knight units")" are not "Grey Knight" units, and I challenge you to find where in the book it says they are)


If yes, then thats a WHOLE separate thread.

Oshova wrote:

I'm sorry but that's not how Mandrakes work, they just make the unit go last as if the charging unit had gone through difficult terrain, like with Stealth Suits in Tau . . .


Page 36 BRB
Assaulting through cover
: Paraphrase : If you are assaulting a unit in cover, you must make a Difficult Terrain check. If you take a Difficult (or dangerous for that matter) terrain test, you strike at I1 (pending certain conditions). : Paraphrase :

Page 6 C: DE
Shadow Skinned
: Paraphrase : Mandrakes always count as being in cover, this counts in an assault as well : Paraphrase :

So yeah...

calypso2ts wrote:
If that is your assertion then I have no rebuttal. However, I would like to sell you a unit of gold. It is mainly lead, but it does have a gold atom in it, thusly making it a unit of gold...


Ill give you the worth of both the lead and the atom of gold (I am quite amazed that you fit a single atom of gold in your unit of lead!) as they both make up the unit in question, and neither should have their value increased or decreased based on the composition of either. However, if you had just enough gold to completely surround the lead, I am sure the unit will look more appealing!

Can anyone think up a metaphor that actually applies to the topic at hand without applying sarcasm and condescension? I'm still waiting for that evidence that the GK special rules REQUIRE the entire unit be composed of GKs in order to gain the benefits of their rules. So far, all I have seen is evidence proving that in situations similar to this, the rules CLEARLY state if the rules would be lost if any model would not have the same abilities of any member of the unit...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 03:08:55


Post by: calypso2ts


I need to reiterate - the GKGM does not lose shrouding, he still has it. However, he is unfortunately not in a unit of GK.

Further, you cannot pull examples from another codex, it just does not apply. If you could then I could argue SM have a Storm Shield with a 4+ in CC only, because that is the way it is in the GK codex.

Grey Knight terminology is specified in the definition you posted. The rule for shrouding states it applied to a unit of 'Grey Knights,' that is a unit having the designation 'Grey Knights' as specified by the definition above. When the unit is not composed of models with said definition, then it is not a unit of 'Grey Knights'

An apt comparison (if one is required) is ATSKNF. If a standard OH Inquisitor is attached to a squad of tactical marines, they still have ATSKNF. Unfortunately, ATSKNF does not help them anymore. I draw this conclusion based on the special exemption to this statement that allows the unit to be subject to ATSKNF if servitors are attached provided they are from the SM codex.

In the same way ATSKNF does not help a unit of SM with an OH Inquisitor, Shrouding does not help a unit of Grey Knights with an attached IC, or a unit of IST with an attached GKGM.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 03:51:20


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote:I need to reiterate - the GKGM does not lose shrouding, he still has it. However, he is unfortunately not in a unit of GK.
Where is your source for this?

calypso2ts wrote:
Further, you cannot pull examples from another codex, it just does not apply. If you could then I could argue SM have a Storm Shield with a 4+ in CC only, because that is the way it is in the GK codex.


This holds no relevance to the current rules question. Also, if other mechanics of the game are not to be referenced when "Makin' Da Call" then what grounds would you say can/should be used as justification for how a rules call would be made (that is what this is, a rules call.) The Rule states that A if an enemy targets a Unit of Grey knights. The Call is: Does that mean the unit must ONLY contain Grey Knights, or can it be comprised of units from other armies, as long as a unit of Grey Knights is present. THERE IS NO CLEAR CUT ANSWER! (If there were, this would not be up for debate) SO, instead of me saying "Units of GK and non GK benefit from the Shrouding Special rule, because I say so" (which seems to be the opposing argument) I am using other examples of similar mechanics in other codexes to JUSTIFY MY ARGUMENT.

calypso2ts wrote:
Grey Knight terminology is specified in the definition you posted. The rule for shrouding states it applied to a unit of 'Grey Knights,' that is a unit having the designation 'Grey Knights' as specified by the definition above. When the unit is not composed of models with said definition, then it is not a unit of 'Grey Knights'


As I have asked a thousand times already, what is your justification for this statement.

calypso2ts wrote:
An apt comparison (if one is required) is ATSKNF. If a standard OH Inquisitor is attached to a squad of tactical marines, they still have ATSKNF. Unfortunately, ATSKNF does not help them anymore. I draw this conclusion based on the special exemption to this statement that allows the unit to be subject to ATSKNF if servitors are attached provided they are from the SM codex.

In the same way ATSKNF does not help a unit of SM with an OH Inquisitor, Shrouding does not help a unit of Grey Knights with an attached IC, or a unit of IST with an attached GKGM.


ATSKNF DOES(Or Should, I've NEVER heard of any other situation) help the Unit in case they were to be beaten in Close Combat and fail their moral check (or, chose to fail in the case of an Inquisitor Lord with Iron Will) and they are victim to a sweeping advance. I personally thing that a "No Retreat" rule is favorable to a "Simply wiped out" situation...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 03:52:54


Post by: don_mondo


Ren, you can list things and try to fuzzy it up all you want. End of the day, it's still not a unit of grey knights, it's a mixed unit and therefor cannot use any of the GK only special rules.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 04:26:30


Post by: Darth Bob


Ah, quite the little debate I've started.

Honestly, I agree with Ren. None of you have given any legitimate sources for your claims.

If unit A joins unit B, it is now the single unit C. However, unit C is still composed of the seperate units A and B, and therefore if you were to shoot unit C, you are shooting unit A and B. If unit A has an ability which restricts your fire, since unit A is a part of the unit you are shooting at, you have to take that test.

There is not a single thing in the BRB or DH Codex (that I know of) that contradicts this.

You guys are working under the assumption that you can avoid it because the entire unit doesn't have it; but that's not true. You can't avoid Typhus' defensive grenades just because that Terminator squad he's attached to doesn't have them.

It's really not that hard to comprehend...and it's not all that "crazy". It seems perfectly clear to me.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 04:31:41


Post by: calypso2ts


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
...if other mechanics of the game are not to be referenced when "Makin' Da Call" then what grounds would you say can/should be used as justification for how a rules call would be made (that is what this is, a rules call.)...


The only valid sources of information a GW Errata to the GK Codex, GW Errata to the BRB and the GK Codex and BRB themselves. These are the only relevant sources unless the GK are in some way interacting in a specific manner with another army in which case the alternate codex and assocaited Errata are valud.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
"Units of GK and non GK benefit from the Shrouding Special rule, because I say so"


No the opposing argument is specific to the exact wording in the codex. A unit of Grey Knights. What is a unit of Grey Knights...one composed entirely of Grey Knights. Why? Because adding anything else causes it to cease being a unit of GK and start being a unit of GK plus some other stuff (which is not what the codex says)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
I am using other examples of similar mechanics in other codexes to JUSTIFY MY ARGUMENT.


This is like using wikipedia for your term paper.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
calypso2ts wrote:
Grey Knight terminology is specified in the definition you posted. The rule for shrouding states it applied to a unit of 'Grey Knights,' that is a unit having the designation 'Grey Knights' as specified by the definition above. When the unit is not composed of models with said definition, then it is not a unit of 'Grey Knights'


As I have asked a thousand times already, what is your justification for this statement.


The codex says what a GK is? A bushel of apples ceases to be a bushel of apples once you add a pear. It becomes a bushel of apples with a pear.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
ATSKNF DOES(Or Should, I've NEVER heard of any other situation) help the Unit in case they were to be beaten in Close Combat and fail their moral check (or, chose to fail in the case of an Inquisitor Lord with Iron Will) and they are victim to a sweeping advance. I personally thing that a "No Retreat" rule is favorable to a "Simply wiped out" situation...


I referenced an Elite OH Inquisitor, not Inquisitor Lord. It would be nice if they could use ATSKNF, but the Inquisitor does not have that rule...which means neither do the SM he joined...Check the SM codex, there is even an entry specifying an exemption to this in the case of servitors from the SM codex which would not be there if ATSKNF was transferrable.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 04:42:20


Post by: Darth Bob


calypso2ts wrote:
A bushel of apples ceases to be a bushel of apples once you add a pear. It becomes a bushel of apples with a pear.


Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC) wrote:
3. Never, ever bring real-world examples into a rules argument.
- The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work. So quit it.


But I'll play along...so going by what you're saying, if that pear was rotten and I ate the entire bushel of apples as well as the pear, that just because the pear is with the apples it is no longer rotten, and therefore, I should not get sick.

Lolwut?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 04:47:12


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote:

This is like using wikipedia for your term paper.


I'd rather use Wikipedia then "a hunch" which IS ALL you have provided as justification.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
don_mondo wrote:Ren, you can list things and try to fuzzy it up all you want. End of the day, it's still not a unit of grey knights, it's a mixed unit and therefor cannot use any of the GK only special rules.


Where in the GK special rules does it say that ONLY units which consist of ONLY Grey Knight may benefit from these rules? There is no such thing as a "Mixed Unit" (unless Planters recently started making them) there is a "Combined Unit" and as stated earlier, the major debate in question is whither

A:

A Combined unit consists of "Meta-Units" which are the originating units which form the "Combined unit" (The BRB Supports this theory)

or

B:

A Combined unit is a new type of unit entirely, which abandons its old unit type in favor of the new "Hybrid Unit". (There has not been any solid supporting evidence of this theory)


The codex says what a GK is? A bushel of apples ceases to be a bushel of apples once you add a pear. It becomes a bushel of apples with a pear.


and if that bushel of apples has the ability to confuse anyone trying to look at them, why does that pear negate that ability. You said your self, its a Bushel of apples with a pear, so it is still a bushel of apples (at least in part)


I referenced an Elite OH Inquisitor, not Inquisitor Lord. It would be nice if they could use ATSKNF, but the Inquisitor does not have that rule...which means neither do the SM he joined...Check the SM codex, there is even an entry specifying an exemption to this in the case of servitors from the SM codex which would not be there if ATSKNF was transferrable.


Thats only because Servitors are the only "infantry" without ATSKNF in the dex

Wolves have the same "exemption" but it includes Cyberwolves and Fenrisian wolves, as well as servitors, if anything, this "exemption" is proof that if anything without ATSKNF were to join something WITH ATSKNF then it GAINS ATSKNF!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 05:45:33


Post by: solkan


Unfortunately, your argument works against you. The codex specifies "a unit of Grey Knights". It doesn't specify a unit consisting mostly, partially, or entirely of Grey Knights or even just that the unit has to contain Grey Knights, it just says "a unit of Grey Knights". And it unfortunately doesn't say "When enemy units fire at Grey Knights ...", either.

As you point out, the rules don't define anything for what constitutes "a unit of X" so we're left to fall back to common usage, and for common usage we have the ever popular box of fruit:

Let's say that you have a box of apples. How many pears do you have to add to that box for it to become a box of pears? It's pretty obvious that no amount of pears will turn a box of apples into a box of pears, it's a box of mixed fruit.

So why do you persist in claiming that the addition of a Grey Knight model can turn a unit of Storm Troopers into a unit of Grey Knights?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 06:42:46


Post by: Darth Bob


solkan wrote:Unfortunately, your argument works against you. The codex specifies "a unit of Grey Knights". It doesn't specify a unit consisting mostly, partially, or entirely of Grey Knights or even just that the unit has to contain Grey Knights, it just says "a unit of Grey Knights". And it unfortunately doesn't say "When enemy units fire at Grey Knights ...", either.


Because it doesn't need to? It doesn't matter what the ratio is; a combined unit is a combination of multiple, seperate units. It is one made of several. You can say "I'm shooting the big old Stormtrooper/GK unit" but in the end, you are still shooting a Storm Trooper unit and a Grey Knight unit. What does it say happens when you shoot a Grey Knight unit? Exactly.

The only way you could avoid shooting the GK unit within the GK/ST amaglamation is if you could pick out the Storm Trooper unit, which (you guessed it) you can't.

solkan wrote:
Let's say that you have a box of apples. How many pears do you have to add to that box for it to become a box of pears? It's pretty obvious that no amount of pears will turn a box of apples into a box of pears, it's a box of mixed fruit.


This is a completely invalid argument for two reasons:
1) It breaks rule three of the YMDC forum.
2) It is kind of irrelevant and doesn't prove your point. If anything, it proves ours. But I'll play along, and to do so, let me break it down for you:

I have a box of pears and a box of apples.

I am not allergic to the pears. I am allergic to the apples.

If I put the box of pears and the box of apples into one box, I will have a box of mixed fruit.

What will happen if I eat everything in the box?

Answer: I will have an allergic reaction, because my allergy to the pears did not disappear by putting the apples and pears in one box. I may be eating a box of mixed fruit, but I'm still eating two seperate fruits (one of which I am allergic to). Therefore, I will have an allergic reaction.

Now, look at this:

I have a Grey Knight unit and a Storm Trooper unit.

The Grey Knights get the Shrouding. The Storm Troopers do not.

If I combine the Grey Knight unit and the Storm Trooper unit, I will have a combined unit.

What will happen if I shoot at the combined unit?

Answer: They will get the Shrouding, because the Shrouding did not disappear by putting the Grey Knight unit and the Storm Trooper unit into one combined unit. You may be targeting the combined unit but you're still shooting two seperate units (one of which is the Grey Knight unit). Therefore, they get the Shrouding.

WOAHOMGWTFMAGIC


Why is this so hard to comprehend?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 08:16:38


Post by: ChrisCP


Because shrouding has an affect on Grey Knight units, and the unit you just shot isn't one hence no affect.

Or with my personal favorite~


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 08:20:24


Post by: don_mondo


Darth Bob wrote:

Why is this so hard to comprehend?


It's not, so I have no idea how you keep getting it wrong.......................


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 09:38:03


Post by: nosferatu1001


Please show where you still have two units.

You don't. The BRB specifically states an IC JOINS another unit. What happens when you join two things together? You get one "thing" which is a composite of both those things.

Finally: You are stating that you are shooting at 2 units. THis is not allowed in the shooting rules, the shooting rules REQUIRE you to shoot at ONE unit. AS such I will shoot at the combined unit, whcih is NOT a GK Unit, and therefore no shrouding.

AS don said, this really isnt difficult, and we're not sure why you're getting it so wrong.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 13:55:19


Post by: Oshova


So yes when Grey Knights join another unit (or vice versa) they still maintain shrouding, as there is no precedent for losing special abilities. HOWEVER! The other unit doesn't have shrouding. Meaning that they are still visible. So the shooting unit (or whatever) shoots at what they think is a normal unit in some fog, and then just happen to kill one, some, or no Grey Knights . . . Done and done =D

The Grey Kngihts gain no benefit from their special rules while in a "Combined Unit". =D

Oshova


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 18:13:20


Post by: Darth Bob


ChrisCP wrote:Because shrouding has an affect on Grey Knight units, and the unit you just shot isn't one hence no affect.

Or with my personal favorite~


What is that little purple area made of? A different unit and a Grey Knight unit. I'm not saying the blue has become a unit of Grey Knights, nor am I saying that the Purple has become a unit of Grey Knights (so don't put words in my mouth). I'm saying that one of the ingredients of that purple unit is a Grey Knight unit. Because there is a Grey Knight unit within that purple area, if you shoot the purple area, you are shooting at a Grey Knight unit, and therefore, test for Shrouding.

don_mondo wrote:
Darth Bob wrote:

Why is this so hard to comprehend?


It's not, so I have no idea how you keep getting it wrong.......................


The feeling's mutual, especially since you have yet to give any support to your claims other than "Because I said so and other people agree with me."

nosferatu1001 wrote:Please show where you still have two units.

You don't. The BRB specifically states an IC JOINS another unit. What happens when you join two things together? You get one "thing" which is a composite of both those things.
Finally: You are stating that you are shooting at 2 units. THis is not allowed in the shooting rules, the shooting rules REQUIRE you to shoot at ONE unit. AS such I will shoot at the combined unit, whcih is NOT a GK Unit, and therefore no shrouding.

AS don said, this really isnt difficult, and we're not sure why you're getting it so wrong.


You just proved my point...what are the things that make up that one thing? The things that makes up that one thing are some other unit and a Grey Knight unit. Even though the new unit is its own unit, it is still composed of a Grey Knight unit and another unit. If you shoot that combined unit, you are shooting a Grey Knight unit and another unit. However, you're venturing to say that there are no longer seperate units within the combined units. Which is wrong, as that is the difference between an IC joining a unit (what we have here) and an IC with a retinue. An IC attached to a unit is one whole unit, but the IC and the other unit are still seperate units in their own right. An IC with a retinue is one whole unit, the retinue is not a seperate unit from the IC.

With your logic: If I assault a Terminator Squad with Typhus they will not get Typhus' defensive grenades because I'm not assaulting Typhus (because apparently it's no longer Typhus because it doesn't make up only Typhus.)

Oshova wrote:So yes when Grey Knights join another unit (or vice versa) they still maintain shrouding, as there is no precedent for losing special abilities. HOWEVER! The other unit doesn't have shrouding. Meaning that they are still visible. So the shooting unit (or whatever) shoots at what they think is a normal unit in some fog, and then just happen to kill one, some, or no Grey Knights . . . Done and done =D

The Grey Kngihts gain no benefit from their special rules while in a "Combined Unit". =D

Oshova


That comment made no sense...(very odd wording, in my opinion).

From what I can gather, you're opperating under the assumption that they can shoot around Grey Knights, where in reality, they can't. Again, I'll turn to Typhus and his Terminators. Are you saying that because he's in a combined unit that doesn't have defensive grenades, he in turn cannot benefit from his defensive grenades? Try to pull that one on a Chaos player and I guarantee you they will slap the gak out of you.


None of you can provide solid proof that it works the way you claim, whereas DAR and I have provided precedences, detailed reasoning, and common sense to support why we are right. Explain to me again how we're wrong? Stop falling back on "LOLOLOL IS DIS A GREY KNIGHT UNIT?" because we're not claiming it is. We're saying there's a Grey Knight unit in it. If you shoot something with another thing in it. You are still shooting that other thing. If there's a rule that says shooting that other thing incurs the Shrouding, than by shooting a unit with that other thing in it, you incur the Shrouding rule.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 20:53:05


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote: What happens when you join two things together? You get one "thing" which is a composite of both those things.


Then would you like to explain to me how someone who is 1/16th Cherokee is just as eligible for the American Indian College Fund as someone who is 100% (or close to it) Cherokee? According to your logic, when you MIX two things the NEW thing is NOT the same as the OLD?

Now heres a BIG question. You say that when One unit joins another, it is no longer a unit of X.

BRB page 90 says
Scoring units
: Paraphrase : The presence of other units may deny an objective but only Troops can control it : Paraphrase :

So, based on the GK ruling, YOU MUST AGREE that a unit of troops with an Independent Character (of any type other then Troops) DOES NOT COUNT AS SCORING (as it is no longer exclusively a unit of Troops).

Rebuttal?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oshova wrote:So yes when Grey Knights join another unit (or vice versa) they still maintain shrouding, as there is no precedent for losing special abilities. HOWEVER! The other unit doesn't have shrouding. Meaning that they are still visible. So the shooting unit (or whatever) shoots at what they think is a normal unit in some fog, and then just happen to kill one, some, or no Grey Knights . . . Done and done =D

The Grey Kngihts gain no benefit from their special rules while in a "Combined Unit". =D

Oshova


Also, if you went by this logic, the "Combined Unit" is still safe as the SPECIFIC wording on "The Shrouding" says that:

"A unit which fails to detect Gery knights misses its chance to fire at an alternate target"

AND

"This is the number of inches the GREY KNIGHTS (The GKGM) can be spotted at and if the unit is within this range then firing is conducted normally"

So, if you are in range of the GKGM you can fire at the COMBINED UNIT normally.

If you fail to detect the Grey Knights (The GKGM) you miss your chance to fire at an alternate target (which would be ANY unit, combined or otherwise)


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 21:17:50


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


All right let's take a look at a situation. We have 1 Grey Knight Hero in Terminator Armor joining a unit of 10 IG infantry figures. Let's concede for the sake of argument that we have 1 unit with a mixed configuration (it is both a GK and IG unit). How would this situation be handled for shooting purposes? I'm going to avoid the shroud for now and just assume either it doesn't work or the opposing unit makes the appropriate die rolls to be allowed to shoot at the unit.
Going by your (Darth Bob) logic when I shoot at the unit after rolling to hit I should make some rolls to wound vs the GK's toughness and the others vs the IG's toughness. Now looking at the BRB p38 the rules say to use the majority toughness and apply the wounds afterward as normal. So, the rules seem to suggest when you have mixed units use the majority's ability.
Now every figure must make saves against the wounds with each figure using it's armor value (and not the best armor value in the unit). So it seems that a unit does not benefit from having one something special in its midst.
Overall it seems that 1 figure in a unit can not impose itself onto the unit without some special rule. But wait that's what the GK has "the shrouding" so maybe that will work. The BRB says that unless specified otherwise a character's USR does carry over to the unit that it joins. However, "the shrouding" is not a USR (u standing for universal) it is a specific rule from the DH codex. So let's see what the DH codex says about how "the shrouding" works. The pertinent part says "every time an enemy unit fires at a grey knight unit...". So let's see if we fulfill those conditions enemy unit firing (check) at a grey knight unit (uh maybe not). The is an exhaustive list of what a grey knight unit consists of. The list does not include IG infantry but it does include GK heros. So now we're to the point everyone has been split. Darth Bob says that since there is a legal GK unit inside of the whole unit the unit as a whole should benefit from its being there. Pretty much everyone else disagrees.
I would say based on the BRB that the majority of figures rule the situation. In this instance 1 GK can not overcome the fact that he is with 10 IG. If the situation were reversed, an IG IC joining a GK unit made of 10 GKT then the shrouding would work. Both the current rules and a Codex from the last edition (the same edition as the GK codex was written for) say that it is the majority of figures that determine the outcome of mixed units. That other codex is the Black Templar codex when discussing neophytes in the same unit as normal troops. The neophytes gain the benefit of the toughness of the veterns and their better armor as long as the veterns outnumber the neophytes.
Otherwise until GW produces a warhammer dictionary neither side is going to be able to convince the other side. Because it comes down to whether GW meant a pure GK unit or a unit with GKs in it as to when the special rules come into effect.

Sorry for the wall of text but it's the only way that I could present my argument in a cohesive way.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 21:19:20


Post by: SaintHazard


For the love of Kahless, man, paragraphs!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 22:03:46


Post by: calypso2ts


This is asked and answered. Non-GK units with a GK attached do not benefit from shrouding.

This is the actual RAW interpretation, and no proof has been provided using the GK codex itself to show a combined unit counts as a unit of GK. This is because such proof does not exist.

One or maybe two people think (incorrectly) that this is not the case, they are welcome to play whatever future space game they want because they are certainly not playing WH 40k.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/24 22:09:50


Post by: nosferatu1001


Daemon Archonren - you have still to rebut what JOIN means in the IC rules.

When you join two units together, you have one unit, until they split apart.

It really is as simple as that. Your rebuttal on your failure to understand what "join" means?

The unit of GK ceases to exist as soon as it is joined by a non-GK unit; the composite unit is not a GK unit. IF you split them up, you regain the GK unit, but while combined - nope.

IT really is as simple as that. Until you can prove that it is 2 units (you cannot, the IC rules deny this event EXCEPT in close combat) and that I am somehow targetting the non existant GK unit (I cannot, I would have to have the abiliity to hit components of a combined unit. LIke a Vindicare) despite ONLY being allowed to target ONE SINGLE UNIT (the combined unit) you have really got no argument.

So: you need to rebut how your version of "join" is different to the English definition, how you have two units when the rules tell you you have one, how you are able to target 2 units when the rules only allow you to target 1, and how you are able to target components of a unit without express permission (aka the Vindicare / Tellions rule) while shooting.

Oh, and to rebut your off target Stealth suit arguemnt: evidence of redundancy does not imply evidence of requirement. In other words having redundant rules (mentioning "entirely") does not require redundancy elsewhere. Ref: Bike entry in BRB, which references the ID rules despite this not being needed at all.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 00:07:02


Post by: Darth Bob


calypso2ts wrote:This is asked and answered. Non-GK units with a GK attached do not benefit from shrouding.


It is answered. But if this is your answer, it's wrong (until you can prove otherwise).

calypso2ts wrote:
This is the actual RAW interpretation, and no proof has been provided using the GK codex itself to show a combined unit counts as a unit of GK. This is because such proof does not exist.


How many times do I have to say we are not claiming the combined unit counts as a unit of GK's? I thought that was made perfectly clear. We are saying there is a GK unit within that combined unit, and by shooting at said combined unit, you are shooting at the GK unit. Hence, Shrouding. You have not provided a single RAW claim to support your standing, so don't act like you have.

calypso2ts wrote:
One or maybe two people think (incorrectly) that this is not the case, they are welcome to play whatever future space game they want because they are certainly not playing WH 40k.


We are playing a completely legitimate form of Warhammer 40k. Claiming our argument is wrong when you can't think of a decent argument against it is just silly. If you really think this is over and done with, by all means, leave the thread and allow the rest of us to have an intellectual debate instead of making under-the-radar personal attacks.


nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit of GK ceases to exist as soon as it is joined by a non-GK unit; the composite unit is not a GK unit. IF you split them up, you regain the GK unit, but while combined - nope.


Page please?


nosferatu1001 wrote:
IT really is as simple as that. Until you can prove that it is 2 units (you cannot, the IC rules deny this event EXCEPT in close combat) and that I am somehow targetting the non existant GK unit (I cannot, I would have to have the abiliity to hit components of a combined unit. LIke a Vindicare) despite ONLY being allowed to target ONE SINGLE UNIT (the combined unit) you have really got no argument.


Actually, I just read the entire entry and it never denies it. In fact it never mentions it, nor does it state (anywhere) that the seperate units being joined lose their status as seperate units by combining with another (to do so would imply the seperate unit being combined with the IC is a retinue). So it seems it is you who "have really got no argument". You don't have to pick out the particular unit within the combined unit to incur its effects. Again, if I assault Typhus with his Termies, I'm going to incur those defensive grenades.


Both of your arguments' flaws lie in the fact that you cannot prove that the seperate units that make up a combined unit lose their status as seperate units. Until you can prove this, you've got nothing.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 00:36:34


Post by: nosferatu1001


P48 - ICs JOIN units. First bullet point

What does join mean again?

That is what I mean by denies it: you are arguing that join does not mean join.

2nd bullet point - "While an independent character is PART OF a unit"

PART OF a unit. How much clearer do you need this to be?

You will notice the word join is used continuously. You are asserting "join" means something other - and have provided no proof of this.

P48 / 49 - The Assault Phase

"the independent character assaults too as it is part of the unit."

Gee, look, theres that phrase again...

Same paragraph:

"treated as a separate single-model unit "

Treated as means they arent actually a separate single model unit, you know that right?

Final sentence:

"once again treated as normal members of the unit they
have joined"

Wow, so they are treated as normal members again, not a seperate unit? Who'd have thought!

Ready to concede yet? You have yet to provide a single rule which states that:

1) both units still exist as seperate entities *while joined*
2) you can target individual elements OR
2b) that by targeting the only thing you are allowed to target (the combined unit) you are somehow targeting the non existent GK unit.
and finally 3) That joined means something entirely differently than how English treats it.

You really have no argument here. Your entire premise is flawed, your assumptions are flawed and your conclusion is, guess what, flawed.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 02:08:40


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Ok, lets do this...



Proof that ICs are Units, also, proof that there is no such wording to suggest that an IC, or ANY unit it joins/is joined by loses its Unit type.



The rules for ICs joining units. NOTHING states t that an IC, or ANY unit it joins/is joined by loses its Unit type, nor that they are some sort of "new hybrid unit" in fact, the rules SPECIFY that the original unit and the joining character are NOT TREATED THE SAME if the original unit did not move, and the joining character did. (Which is contrary to the rules for firing heavy weapons for instance....)


How special rules work for ICs that join other units. As you can see, while the IC/Unit do not share special rules with each-other, they do NOT LOSE their special rule EXCEPT in certain situations.


Special rules that are lost by/to an IC/Joined Unit have an asterix, implying that all other special rules (UNLESS NOTED OTHERWISE) are not lost by "Combining Units".

SOOOOOO Lets look at the special rule of the shrouding!

Starting with the GK Terminology ruling



So, when reading the next rule, know that a GKGM counts as a "Unit of Grey Knights"



So, if a unit of grey knights (the GKGM) is targeted, then the enemy unit must preform a "Shrouding Check" to see if they can see the GKs and if they can fire on them, if they cannot see the unit, they MAY NOT choose another target.

So, lets look at the "Shooting at IC rules."



As you can see when you shoot at a "Combined Unit" the IC is considered part of the unit, nothing in this section implies that the IC or the Joined Unit looses any of its special rules, so the shrouding would still apply. Infact, if you notice, they have an exception for NOT being able to pick out an IC or the Joined unit (which would be an IC that is a MC) HOWEVER the MC-IC would STILL be unable to be picked out if its joined a unit of MCs or a UNIT WITH SPECIAL RULES THAT OFFER THEM PROTECTION (I would consider "The Shrouding" a special rule that offers protection) which ALSO IMPLIES THAT SPECIAL RULES WHICH PROVIDE PROTECTION ARE NOT LOST BY A COMBINED UNIT UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED!

SO, as stated before, IF ANY PART OF A COMBINED UNIT (which NOTHING in the rules implies that a COMBINED UNIT is not a UNIT COMPOSED OF DIFFERENT UNIT TYPES AND STILL MAINTAINS THEIR DIVERSITY ((Such as GK + Non GK)) INFACT THE BRB HAS MULTIPLE MENTIONS OF THE CONTRARY!) has "The Shrouding" (or any other GK special rule that would act similarly) then you must be able to comply with "The Shroudings" limitations before being able to fire at THE ENTIRE UNIT.

[IF the counter arguement is "A Unit of GKS + a Unit of Non-GKs are no longer a Unit of GKs, so therefor they do not benefit from 'The Shrouding' special rule" my rebuttal is such.

A Unit of Troops joined by an IC (Example, Sanguinary Priest, so an ELITES choice) still counts as scoring, even thought the RULES FOR SCORING UNITS STATES:


So therefor, even though the rules hold NO MENTION OF COMBINED UNITS (Of Troops + Non Troops) a Combined unit which contains troops, still counts as scoring.

So, if a unit of Troops + Non Troops still count as troops for scoring

A Unit of Grey Knights + Non-Grey Knights count as Grey Knights for the purposes of being targeted by shooting (and as such, are protected by "The Shrouding") ]

If you do not agree with the above [bracketed] text, I again request you provide proper justification for WHY it is wrong (as opposed to "Because I said so")

If you cannot do that then...

YOU GET NOTHING


~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 02:16:50


Post by: Monster Rain




DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke. "Considered part of the Unit..." What kind of unit? Grey Knight Unit. Shrouding and Aegis powers activate!

Oh snap.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 02:18:59


Post by: Gwar!


Monster Rain wrote:DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke. "Considered part of the Unit..." What kind of unit? Grey Knight Unit. Shrouding and Aegis powers activate!

Oh snap.
Except the unit is no longer a Grey Knights unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 02:23:01


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Gwar! wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:DAR just laid down the law so hard I think it broke. "Considered part of the Unit..." What kind of unit? Grey Knight Unit. Shrouding and Aegis powers activate!

Oh snap.
Except the unit is no longer a Grey Knights unit.


Prove it, without proof, its just "hot air"

~Edit~

Dear Gwar:

The RAW section of IC's joining other units, which specifies that if the IC has moved, but the Joined unit does not, the Joined unit does not count as shooting, but the IC, whom according to you is now a member of the "Combined unit" instead of still a "Grey Kmight unit", does count as moving...

The rule for Heavy Weapons SPECIFICALLY SAYS if ANY model of a unit with a "Heavy" weapon moves, the entire unit counts as moving.


~~~
IC joins a unit that did not move, but the IC did.

Rules for IC state the 'joined unit' does NOT count as moving but the CHARACTER does

Rules for Heavy weapons state that if any model of a unit has moved they all count has moved.

SYNTAX ERROR!

~~~

Also, see "Units of Troops with an IC joined still counting as scoring"(In order to count as scoring, you must be a Unit of Troops)

Sincerely,
~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 02:34:11


Post by: kirsanth


Grey Knight squad are not "units containing", they are defined "units", though?

Also, even if the Grey Knights cannot be targeted, for example, in a multi unit the other models CAN be for the same reasons?

Except for the actual AoE prohibited bit or is that the model?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 02:36:06


Post by: Darth Bob




GAME OVER.

Continue?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 02:49:36


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


kirsanth wrote:
Also, even if the Grey Knights cannot be targeted, for example, in a multi unit the other models CAN be for the same reasons?


As far as the first part of your post... I am sorry, but I can't really tell what you are tying to say (GK squads are not units? idk about that, but it may be due to a typo or something...)

however the second part of your question can be easily answered.

"Even if the grey knights cannot be targeted"

well, IF "The Shrouding" did not specifically state otherwise, then yes, you would be correct.

however, if you look at the 3rd underline from my post (on the shrouding) you will see WHY the "Rest of the multi-unit: cannot be targeted". The previous sentence states that ONLY if the Grey Knights are spotted can the unit conduct normal firing.

Aegis would work the same way, if for instance, the multi unit were the target of "Doom" and the "Meta-Unit" of GKs pass their Aegis save ((The mini psychic hood thing)) then the Power fails. (so it would fail on the other members as well.)



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 03:32:54


Post by: calypso2ts


I cannot refute what you are saying because nothing in what you have said actually proves Nos's assertions wrong.

Further, you are asking for proof, but the burden is on you (which you have not met other than by creating a Frankenstein's monster of vaguely related rules references and selected excerpts). It is, in fact, impossible to prove something does not exist - which is the burden you are trying to put on other posters.

Lets go through your bullets..

IC are units - Yes? no one debated this, what was contested is that they retain a distinction when joined to form this ideas of a 'combined unit'.

Shooting reference - Counting as not moving for a specific set of models does not constitute separate units. This is an irrelevant point.

Special Rules - You seem to think everyone claims the GK loses special rules, I don't think anyone has claimed that. In general if you examine the special rules that are 'lost' they are limited to parameters that influence the entire unit and not just the IC.

Wording of Shrouding - You posted this before - operative statement is unit of grey knights. Cool, we all agree a unit of grey knights gets to be shrouded. Now you need to prove an IC joined to a non GK unit is a unit of GK...

Part of unit - Okay I agree they are part of the unit - a unit that is not a unit of GK, a unit that is a unit of one GK and something else. Maybe this distinction appears later?

Nope I do not see that, in fact here is my favorite part of the argument...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
So therefor, even though the rules hold NO MENTION OF COMBINED UNITS ...


Interesting, so where does this combined unit idea come from? Right, you made it up because it has no basis in actual fact.


Be careful when you taunt someone, it is likely to end up in a dakka vacation for you.



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 08:23:24


Post by: nosferatu1001


DAR - erm, so please:

1) prove that joined doesnt mean "join". Oh wait, PART OF the unit was in the quotes. Try again with both.

2) YOu do realise that when an IC joins a unit, it is an exception to the normal rules? You are seizing on an exception to the normal rules and holding it as "proof" that ICs are different to the unit they join.

Nope.

3) Noone stated that Shrouding is lost. Try again.

Shrouding does not apply as it requires you to TARGET a UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS.

4) I am NOT Targetting a unit of GK; as proven above I am targetting the combined unit.

I am not, in fact, ALLOWED to target GK within the unit as I do not have permission to target a component of the unit - I am targetting the combined unit, as the rules for shooting require.

5) You confuse unit type and unit name (Troops is a unit designation, unit type is Infantry or similar; neither have anything to do with whether you are a unit of Grey Knights.) - Apples compared to Green, for example - and try to use this as "proof"?

LOL!

You still have nothing. You do realise that? How about rebutting the actual rulebook quotes which require that the IC is PART OF THE UNIT.

You can't, but please try.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 08:50:26


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote: I cannot refute what you are saying because nothing in what you have said actually proves Nos's assertions wrong.


You've yet to even answer my main question...

Does a unit of Troops joined by an IC count as scoring?

calypso2ts wrote:
Further, you are asking for proof, but the burden is on you (which you have not met other than by creating a Frankenstein's monster of vaguely related rules references and selected excerpts). It is, in fact, impossible to prove something does not exist - which is the burden you are trying to put on other posters.


Guilty until proven innocent eh? Ok, I'll buy into that "logic" and respond with "Read the rules I listed as evidence as the "Burden of Proof". If you think that the rules for Independent Characters Joining other units, the rules for what happens to ICs and the Units they join's special rules when being joined, and the special rule "The Shrouding" (among other things) are "Vaguely related rules references" to the question of "Does a unit which is joined by an IC with the Grey Knight special rule (Or a unit with the Grey Knight special rule is joined by an IC without it) still gain the benefits of "The Shrouding" " then I really don't know what to say...


calypso2ts wrote:
Lets go through your bullets..

IC are units - Yes? no one debated this, what was contested is that they retain a distinction when joined to form this ideas of a 'combined unit'.


It was debated previously that a GK-Hero is not a "Unit of Grey Knights", I provided the actual wording of the rule to ease any concerns that "an IC is not a Unit".


calypso2ts wrote:
Shooting reference - Counting as not moving for a specific set of models does not constitute separate units. This is an irrelevant point.


I didn't think I would have to include this... but ok, why not!



So are you saying that the rule-book implies that ICs are not considered a "Model in the combined unit" or that instead, just because 1 unit of the combined unit (the IC) moved, the other unit (The unit that did not move) is TREATED SEPARATELY and thus NOT punished.


Special Rules - You seem to think everyone claims the GK loses special rules, I don't think anyone has claimed that. In general if you examine the special rules that are 'lost' they are limited to parameters that influence the entire unit and not just the IC.


So then, if they are not lost, then what parameters are they failing to meet? The Grey-Knight Unit question?

You seem to like agreeing with Gwar, so I'll use his words.

Gwar! wrote:The IC counts as part of the unit for the purposes of movement and shooting, but doesn't actually BECOME part of the unit. The same way that pivoting is technically movement but doesn't count as movement yada yada yada.


So, the IC Doesn't BECOME part of the unit, so is still a Unit of Grey Knights. He is being fired at (if he is part of the "combined unit" being targeted_

"So, If there is a unit of Grey Knights

Being targeted by enemy fire

Shrouding roll is required.

If the unit is within range, the Grey knights can be shot."


Now, you start spicing it up.

If this is legal

"So, If there is a unit of Grey Knights

Being targeted by enemy fire (As a result of a psychic shooting attack)

Shrouding roll is required.

If the unit is within range, the Grey knights can be shot."

and this is legal

"So, If there is a unit of Grey Knights

Being targeted by enemy fire

Shrouding roll is required.

If the unit is within range (And in True Line-of-sight), the Grey knights can be shot."

What is the justification for this

"So, If there is a unit of Grey Knights (joined by units of non-grey knights)

Being targeted by enemy fire

Shrouding roll is required.

If the unit is within range , the Grey knights can be shot."



calypso2ts wrote:
Wording of Shrouding - You posted this before - operative statement is unit of grey knights. Cool, we all agree a unit of grey knights gets to be shrouded. Now you need to prove an IC joined to a non GK unit is a unit of GK...


Ok



The second underline says "Grey Knight Heroes". Grey Knight heroes are ICs with the Grey Knight Special Rule (or, "Grey Knight Units")

For more information on units, see page 3 of the Main rule book

For more information on Grey Knights see CH

For more information on Independent characters see page 47 of the main rule book.

If we agree that a unit of grey knights gets the shrouding.

the IC is a unit of grey knights

and the IC is part of the combined unit being fired at in the shooting phase

I really don't see why we are struggling to agree that the Shrouding would "Activate"

calypso2ts wrote:
Part of unit - Okay I agree they are part of the unit - a unit that is not a unit of GK, a unit that is a unit of one GK and something else. Maybe this distinction appears later?


What? "A unit that is not a unit of gk, a unit that is a unit of one gk and something else...."

Did you mean:

I Agree that they are part of the unit, but the unit is NOT a unit of GK, but is a unit of ONE GK and something else.

What is a "Unit of 1 GK" Do you mean a Grey knight Hero, which has already been proven as "A Unit of Grey Knights". If so, please clarify what "Distinction" you are looking for, I'm thinking this may be a mis-wording or something as I have no clue what you are asking here....




calypso2ts wrote:
in fact here is my favorite part of the argument...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
So therefor, even though the rules hold NO MENTION OF COMBINED UNITS ...


Interesting, so where does this combined unit idea come from? Right, you made it up because it has no basis in actual fact.


I was referring to when I said "It has no mention of Combined units"

The "Combined Unit" idea that "I came up with" is located in the BRB:

Second bullet, on the right.

If I did infact come up with the "combined unit" idea, you should agree that GW should have credited me in the books printing... damn shame they didn't!


calypso2ts wrote:
Be careful when you taunt someone, it is likely to end up in a dakka vacation for you.


Excuse me, but is this some sort of "Threat" that I am going to be Banned for providing evidence to my argument as opposed to sheer "hearsay"? Or some sort of "Don't disagree with me cause I'm friends with a Mod and he will ban you" threat? Either way, if thats how you win debates, you should enter Politics....

I don't see why you defend your argument so personally, if nothing else, it proves that you are arguing more-so for the sake of personal pride then for discovering the actual answer to this question.

The reason I am fighting so adamantly about this is not because I hold any deep personal stake in this (I mean really, the allies rules are going to be kaput in about a year anyway, and I don't think there is any 'truly' broken combo's which consist of sticking an Inquisitor with some GKs or a GK-Hero with Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, not to mention, I'm a Chaos player anywho) but because there is EVIDENCE which supports one side of the argument, and I HAVE YET TO FIND (or more importantly BEEN SHOWN) ANY evidence to the contrary... so PLEASE if I am wrong SHOW ME WHERE I AM WRONG

Show me in the rules where it says SPECIFICALLY (NOT IMPLIED) that Units Gain/Lose their original types when joining other units.

Show me where it says that rules such as "The Shrouding" and "Aegis" have a hidden condition of "Can only be a unit of Grey Knights, and combining other NON-GKs to the unit will prevent this rule from activating.

PLEASE SHOW ME THIS! (As I will be more then likely FIGHTING this combo as a CSM player then USING this combo)

If you can't show evidence of this, please concede. I think some of the worst rulings in a table top game (or in gaming in general) are rulings made in (no offense) ignorance. Arguments without evidence. And pseudo-rectitude.

Jesus people...

~DAR


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:DAR - erm, so please:


Ok... Please read every word before simply copying your previous post and reposting it...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) prove that joined doesnt mean "join". Oh wait, PART OF the unit was in the quotes. Try again with both.


Is this a condition for my argument to be valid?

ok, then my rebuttal is the following

1) Prove that a Cocktail of Rum and Coke does not contain both Rum and/or Coke.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
2) YOu do realise that when an IC joins a unit, it is an exception to the normal rules? You are seizing on an exception to the normal rules and holding it as "proof" that ICs are different to the unit they join.

Nope.


I don't really get the "second Nope" nor what specifically you are referring to. If you are saying that ICs joining a unit are an exception to the NORMAL RULES then couldn't that SAME EXCEPTION be applied to the whole "CAN ONLY TARGET ONE UNIT" rule for shooting (as they are multiple units being targeted, you probably agree that if "One of them is a Unit of Grey Knights" then the GK Shrouding Rule is activated, correct?_

nosferatu1001 wrote:
3) Noone stated that Shrouding is lost. Try again.


I was going to go and "quote" everyone who says that "The shrouding does not work" (unless you define a special rule that does not work as "Not lost", then you are just playing semantics) but then I realized that dakka does have a "Time-Out" period on my laptop ((I don't remain logged in)) and it would take too long... *btw, you are on the list of "Quotes which denote that the Shrouding special rule is lost by nonGKs + Gks*

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shrouding does not apply as it requires you to TARGET a UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS.

4) I am NOT Targetting a unit of GK; as proven above I am targetting the combined unit.

I am not, in fact, ALLOWED to target GK within the unit as I do not have permission to target a component of the unit - I am targetting the combined unit, as the rules for shooting require.


"4) I am NOT Targetting a unit of GK; as proven above I am targetting the combined unit(of a unit of GK and a unit of non GK)."

If you own any GK models and any non GK models, please preform this experiment for me.

Take 1 of the GK models, for this experiment, he will be a GKGM (regardless of what he really is). Take the Non GK models (You can either use 1 to represent two ICs joining, or more then 1 to represent a unit of non-ICs being joined by an IC) and put the GKGM on the table next to each other (with in two inches, so that they are joined). Step a good 2 feet back, now look back the the table.

Are you still looking at a GKGM (a unit of grey knights) AND a unit of non-gk? (Hopefully the answer is yes, if not, lay off the booze)

If you point a laser-pointer at them, are you targeting a unit of Grey Knights
Spoiler:
and a unit of non-grey knights
(If you see, the sentence holds water with or without the spoiler, however, you WOULD need to include both, as you can't target the GKGM specifically without special rules)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
5) You confuse unit type and unit name (Troops is a unit designation, unit type is Infantry or similar; neither have anything to do with whether you are a unit of Grey Knights.) - Apples compared to Green, for example - and try to use this as "proof"?


Designation is Synonymous with Name and the first sentence under most (if not all, I can't confirm this on my at the moment) codexes "Unit Name" section says "The unit type, which may also show a limitation on the minimum or maximum number of choices you can make of that unit type. ... never-the-less what would you define the notion of a "Unit of Non-grey knights as" (The notion, not the actual statement)




nosferatu1001 wrote:
You still have nothing. You do realise that? How about rebutting the actual rulebook quotes which require that the IC is PART OF THE UNIT.

You can't, but please try.


You are right, I can't... the IC is (A unit that is) PART OF THE UNIT!

Now please tell me how that would negate "The Shrouding" in any way?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 13:16:01


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


I'll say it just one more time. Shrouding is not a USR so no rules about USRs mean anything. USR stands for Universal Special Rule meaning a special rule that is common to at least 2 different Codices. Shrouding would, if anything, be covered under a Specific Special Rules section. Where would you find that section? Not in the BRB because that just covers general rules so you must look to the Codex where the rule is found. The rule, in this case says that it only works when you target a unit of GKs.
You can't have it both ways, the unit can not be both a unit of GK and a unit of something else and claim the protection of the GK without allowing your opponent to target the vulnerability of the other unit. The rule specifies that only GK are effected so if you don't target the GK the shrouding doesn't work. So, either the unit is an almalgam of GK and X which does not constitute a unit of GK (by definition of GK+X) or it is a unit of GK and X where X can be targeted seperately and shrouding doesn't apply since can opt not to target the GK. For your interpretation to work you would have to have permission (since the rules are permissive) for the rule to work with non-GK units that include GK figures. There isn't any such rule therefore you can't do it.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 13:47:50


Post by: nosferatu1001


Your rebuttal is to take two things that are mixed and try to claim that has anything to do with Joined?

Your rebuttal is nonsense.

My rebuttal to your false rebuttal is: mix sodium and chloride to form NaCl. Now point me to where the Sodium atoms exist as a seperate unit (molecule, if you will) to the Chlorine atoms.

They are constituent elements (pun intended) but are not distinguishable until you seperate them.

Exactly the same as an IC which is PART OF the unit it joins and therefore:

P1) YOu have one unit, and one unit only. Proven
P2) The only time the IC is TREATED AS a seperate single model unit is in CC
C1) WHen shooting at a combined unit you may, as per the shooting rules, only shoot at the single combined unit
C2) THe single combined unit is NOT a unit of GK. Shrouding requires you to TARGET a UNIT of GK. I am not targetting a unit of GK.

2) There is an exceptio for ICs joining a unit making the unit count as not moving. There is no exception stating that, when you shoot a combined unit, you are somehow shooting the two units that no longer exist as a seperate entity.

Permissive ruleset, basic rules. Show permission to shoot at two units. You cant, but carry on!

3) You are complaining about arguing semantics? Your entire argument relies on twisting "joined" to not actually mean "joined" but "mixed", which isnt arguing semantics but is just WRONG.

Not being able to use a special rule is NOT the same as not having the special rule. Possession is not the same as Use.

Shrouding, as a rule, remains. Shrouding, when you come to use it, cannot be used as you cannot fulfill its' criteria for usage; namely that you are targeting aunit of GKs. If you cannot understand the difference between (have but cant use) and (do not have) then you are really going to struggle.

4) I am looking at a combined unit, consisting of a GKGM and a non-GK squad. The unit "GKGM" does not exist while joined, as proven from the words "joined" and "part of" and evidenced further in the FACT that the only time he exists, or is treated as, a seperate unit is while resolving CC attacks.

Which, I would like to add, you have consistently ignored. Mainly because it entirley disproves your entire argument, but hey! Carry on!

5) Troop /= Unit Name. Troop == Place where the unit exists in the FOC chart. A unit of FOC Slot: Troop joined by an IC does not lose the FOC slot it belongs to.

6) Being part of a unit means you are not a unit yourself. This is evidenced in the assault rules where, as you have been shown repeatedly, the IC is treated as a seperate unit of 1 model. If he were still a unit by himself then the entire section "ICs in assault" would make no sense.

To sum up: When an IC joins a unit he ceases to be a sdeperate unit, and joins the other unit. The other unit designation is then {GK+non-GK} and when I shoot at the SINGLE UNIT I cannot be targeting a GK-unit as the GK-unit deos not exist, only the {GK+non-GK} unit exists.

Shrouding negated. Not lost, as you are struggling to differentiate between, but the criteria for activating it cannot be met.

You have ZERO rules support for your side, ZERO comphrension of what the word "join" means and a complete ignorance of how basic rules in the rulebook work. You are making up proposed exceptions (you can shoot at two targets despite having no permission to), treating exceptions as proof of a general rule, etc. In short you are simply wrong in every way conceivable.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 14:33:16


Post by: SaintHazard


At this point, DAR is basically just posting pictures of irrelevant sections of the rulebook hoping the pretty pictures will break our resolve.

The bottom line is that he's wrong, and ignoring the relevant rules.

Give it up, Nos. You're right, but you'll never get DAR to admit it.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 14:54:03


Post by: calypso2ts



Excuse me, but is this some sort of "Threat"


Calm down DAR, I am referring to your image of Willy Wonka, the flow chart following it by another poster and the other image with the word 'pwned' It is not a threat, it is a warning to step back or you might get yourself into some trouble.

It it not guilty before proven innocent, it is the way the rules set operates. Permissive rule set and all

See Nos's post for other rebuttal points as he/I are essentially arguing the same point.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 15:00:14


Post by: frgsinwntr


nosferatu1001 wrote:
My rebuttal to your false rebuttal is: mix sodium and chloride to form NaCl. Now point me to where the Sodium atoms exist as a seperate unit (molecule, if you will) to the Chlorine atoms.


Science commentary... Actually... the sodium and chlorine atoms do exist... but the percentage in which they exist is extremely small.... and dependent upon temperature...

As far as rules are concerned however... I agree with you...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 17:15:04


Post by: nosferatu1001


I knew that as well, i just wanted the poster to imagine the basic crystalline structure we all know and love (oooh, blue and orange ) and work out that Cl2 and Na2 wont really be found in there. Thus the difference between joined and mixed.

Unless DAR can somehow prove that joined == mixed (which would be a good proof) they have less than nothing as an argument.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 19:28:48


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Leo_the_Rat wrote:I'll say it just one more time. Shrouding is not a USR so no rules about USRs mean anything. USR stands for Universal Special Rule meaning a special rule that is common to at least 2 different Codices. Shrouding would, if anything, be covered under a Specific Special Rules section.


If you look at the image I posted in regards to ICs Joining Units and the rules for "Special Rules" it is titled "Special Rules" not "Universal Special Rules"


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Where would you find that section? Not in the BRB because that just covers general rules so you must look to the Codex where the rule is found. The rule, in this case says that it only works when you target a unit of GKs.


Yes, the shrouding states that an enemy unit must be targeting a unit of GKs. Now where in the Codex or in the BRB does it state that this rule does not apply if said "Unit of Grey Knights" has joined/been joined by a unit of non-grey knights?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You can't have it both ways, the unit can not be both a unit of GK and a unit of something else and claim the protection of the GK without allowing your opponent to target the vulnerability of the other unit. The rule specifies that only GK are effected so if you don't target the GK the shrouding doesn't work. So, either the unit is an almalgam of GK and X which does not constitute a unit of GK (by definition of GK+X) or it is a unit of GK and X where X can be targeted seperately and shrouding doesn't apply since can opt not to target the GK.


Have what both ways? Not a single person has yet to provide any evidence which would suggest that when firing a a unit of non-gks joined by a gkgm (a unit of Gks) you are not firing at a Unit of Grey knights.

The rule does not state "A unit of ONLY grey knights"

When you fire at a combined unit which contains a Unit of Grey Knight, then you satisfy the "Did I shoot at a unit of Grey Knights" condition of The Shrouding.


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For your interpretation to work you would have to have permission (since the rules are permissive) for the rule to work with non-GK units that include GK figures. There isn't any such rule therefore you can't do it.


I think you are confusing the definition of "Permissive Ruleset". Permissive rules(aka "The most important rule!" page 2 BRB) are not defined by the wording of the codexes/rule books but by the decisions made by the players that are involved. That is the only "Permissive" part.

That aside, the question isn't "Does the rule apply to non-gks" it is "When you fire at a unit of Grey Knights, must you test for the shrouding" The answer is Yes. the second question is, "Do combined units count as their original type even as they are combined"

My answer is "Yes" as if you are shooting at a combined unit which contains a Unit of Grey Knights, you are still shooting at a unit of Grey Knights.

Heres another example that may help.

A GKHero joins a squad of Grey-Hunters, and as such loses his fearless rule.

Bjorn the fel-handed is slain, so all "Units of Space Wolves" become fearless.

The GK Hero does not become fearless because he is in a unit of space wolves, but the space wolves DO become fearless and as such. the IC 'regains' his fearless rule.

According to your argument, the Grey Hunters would not get fearless as they are "No longer a unit of Space Wolves". I do NOT agree with this.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 20:10:41


Post by: Kilkrazy


It is within the laws of copyright to use excerpts of materials for the purpose of review and comment.

As long as big unnecessary chunks of books are not copied.

Look up Fair Use or Fair Dealing for more info.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 20:30:34


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


SaintHazard wrote:At this point, DAR is basically just posting pictures of irrelevant sections of the rulebook hoping the pretty pictures will break our resolve.


Again, if your "resolve' is the only thing keeping you from accecptiong the evidence, and thus, the actual wording of the rules, stop taking it so personally, and understand I'm arguing evidence against lack of evidence.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your rebuttal is to take two things that are mixed and try to claim that has anything to do with Joined?

Your rebuttal is nonsense.


Mixed? no

Combined? yes

Mixed actually means what you are trying to argue: More specifically

Mixed is the act of blending multiple elements into a single unit of mass

Where Joining is specifically:

"To become a member of a group"

Group would consist of "Unit of Grey Knights and Unit of Non-Grey Knights" so "Unit of Grey Knights" would still exist, and as such retain the requirements for "The Shrouding"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
My rebuttal to your false rebuttal is: mix sodium and chloride to form NaCl. Now point me to where the Sodium atoms exist as a seperate unit (molecule, if you will) to the Chlorine atoms.

They are constituent elements (pun intended) but are not distinguishable until you seperate them.


Thats not true at all, if you were to expose the chlorine to a chemical that would break down the sodium, but not the chloride, the sodium would still break down (even though they are joined) you analogy just goes to further prove my argument, so, in you're best interests, I am willing to put an "aside" on it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Exactly the same as an IC which is PART OF the unit it joins and therefore:

P1) YOu have one unit, and one unit only. Proven


Provide the page which states that "having One Unit" and "Having One unit Type" are the same thing, while you are at it, provide the page where it is "proven" that there is no such thing as a "Multi-character Unit" (I think I've seen that wording somewhere before)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
P2) The only time the IC is TREATED AS a seperate single model unit is in CC


Relevance? Single Model Unit and the rules for Close Combat (if nothing else) so that the "Combined Unit" is in fact still the different "Meta-Units" "Combined".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
C1) WHen shooting at a combined unit you may, as per the shooting rules, only shoot at the single combined unit
C2) THe single combined unit is NOT a unit of GK. Shrouding requires you to TARGET a UNIT of GK. I am not targetting a unit of GK.


Actually, the rules are quite clear that if the IC were a Monsterous Creature, while he is still part of the "Combined UNit" he may infact be "picked out of the unit" and fired at seperately. If nothing else, this denotes that ICs ARE Units within Units. As a part of the unit is a Unit of Grey Knights, you must roll for shrouding.
2) There is an exceptio for ICs joining a unit making the unit count as not moving. There is no exception stating that, when you shoot a combined unit, you are somehow shooting the two units that no longer exist as a seperate entity.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Permissive ruleset, basic rules. Show permission to shoot at two units. You cant, but carry on!


Umm, Long Fangs can, as can a slew of other special units, but thats not what is being argued here. If you cannot shoot at two units, and a Combined unit is made up of two or more units. Then by your definition, you cannot shoot a combined unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

3) You are complaining about arguing semantics? Your entire argument relies on twisting "joined" to not actually mean "joined" but "mixed", which isnt arguing semantics but is just WRONG.


You sir, need to re-read your dictionary, cause I think you have 'mixed' (pun intended) the definitions of those two words.


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not being able to use a special rule is NOT the same as not having the special rule. Possession is not the same as Use.

Shrouding, as a rule, remains. Shrouding, when you come to use it, cannot be used as you cannot fulfill its' criteria for usage; namely that you are targeting aunit of GKs. If you cannot understand the difference between (have but cant use) and (do not have) then you are really going to struggle.


K, so if you are shooting at a Unit of GKs, why does it matter if anything else is attached to that unit of GKs, they are still a unit of GKs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
4) I am looking at a combined unit, consisting of a GKGM and a non-GK squad. The unit "GKGM" does not exist while joined, as proven from the words "joined" and "part of" and evidenced further in the FACT that the only time he exists, or is treated as, a seperate unit is while resolving CC attacks.

Which, I would like to add, you have consistently ignored. Mainly because it entirley disproves your entire argument, but hey! Carry on!


Ignored what? The CC rules? Disproves my arguement? Howso? Wording in the BRB that supports that ICs (Which are Units remember) and Non-IC Units they join still interact seperately. Cool! More power to it, sounds to me like that further proves that firing at a Unit of Grey Knights (no matter what else is joined to them) is still firing at a unit of Grey Knights.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
5) Troop /= Unit Name. Troop == Place where the unit exists in the FOC chart. A unit of FOC Slot: Troop joined by an IC does not lose the FOC slot it belongs to.

6) Being part of a unit means you are not a unit yourself. This is evidenced in the assault rules where, as you have been shown repeatedly, the IC is treated as a seperate unit of 1 model. If he were still a unit by himself then the entire section "ICs in assault" would make no sense.


No, the rules for ICs and assaults exist as a counter point for the rules for ICs JOINING UNITS (Which by-the-way if the "Combined unit" did work the way you describe, then the second bullet on the Right would be redundancy, why would you have to specifically state that ICs in a unit must follow coherency rules if not for the fact that they aren't a "Merged" Unit?)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
To sum up: When an IC joins a unit he ceases to be a sdeperate unit, and joins the other unit. The other unit designation is then {GK+non-GK} and when I shoot at the SINGLE UNIT I cannot be targeting a GK-unit as the GK-unit deos not exist, only the {GK+non-GK} unit exists.

Shrouding negated. Not lost, as you are struggling to differentiate between, but the criteria for activating it cannot be met.


I'm going to start getting lazier with my answers since you don't seem to be reading them anyway...

Prove that unit designations are removed when a unit is combined.

A Unit of Logan Grimnar, Ragnar Black mane, Ulrik and Nyjal when combined still hosts all the named characters with their same names. Designation is not lost when units join together, you seem to disagree, so please prove it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have ZERO rules support for your side, ZERO comphrension of what the word "join" means and a complete ignorance of how basic rules in the rulebook work. You are making up proposed exceptions (you can shoot at two targets despite having no permission to), treating exceptions as proof of a general rule, etc. In short you are simply wrong in every way conceivable.


Yet you've yet to provide even the slightest slimmer of proof for your argument, you'd provided Close Combat rules and false definition of the word "Join"

join (join)
v. joined, join·ing, joins
v.tr.
1. To put or bring together so as to make continuous or form a unit: join two boards with nails; joined hands in a circle.
2. To put or bring into close association or relationship: two families that were joined by marriage; join forces.
3. To connect (points), as with a straight line.
4. To meet and merge with: where the creek joins the river.
5. To become a part or member of: joined the photography club.
6. To come into the company of: joined the group in the waiting room.
7. To participate with in an act or activity: The committee joins me in welcoming you.
8. To adjoin.
9. To engage in; enter into: Opposing armies joined battle on the plain.
v.intr.
1. To come together so as to form a connection: where the two bones join.
2. To act together; form an alliance: The two factions joined to oppose the measure.
3. To become a member of a group.
4. To take part; participate: joined in the search.
n.
A joint; a junction.


Which definition states "To lose ones original characteristics in exchange for the characteristics of a 'Group'


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 21:09:58


Post by: nosferatu1001


1) Read the tenets of YMDC. Done? Try again with your post
2) You have still to find a rule which states that the IC, which is PART Of the larger unit, is the Target.

The shooting rules are very specific: you may target ONLY one unit. I am TARGETTING the Unit that contains the IC and the original unit.

I am not targetting the GK unit. I CANNOT target the GK "unit". It is impossible for me to target, without a special rule, the GK "unit". GOt that yet? It is hideously, plainly simple, but apparently you need it repeating:

I. Am. Not. Targetting (A SPECIFIC BRB TERM). The. GK. "Unit"

As such Shrouding does not apply. While the GK will be affected by shooting at the combined unit, the GK themselves are not the target.

Now you are done. You have no argument that holds water, and I am done here. Once you can prove that targetting, joined, and part of all mean different things (and you STILL dont understand the idea of unit type. Unit type is "infantry", "MC", etc. Not the same as the unit name) to the BRB usage, then come back.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 21:29:48


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:1) Read the tenets of YMDC. Done? Try again with your post
2) You have still to find a rule which states that the IC, which is PART Of the larger unit, is the Target.


You missed the part where he showed in the rule book where it says that the IC is considered part of the unit?



There you are.

All settled.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 21:36:50


Post by: Gwar!


Considered Part of that unit ≠ They become grey Knights.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 21:43:20


Post by: Monster Rain


No one is saying that it does become a Grey Knight.

The joining IC is considered a part of a unit of Grey Knights. Grey Knights have the Shrouding.

Boom goes the dynamite.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 21:49:25


Post by: Gwar!


Monster Rain wrote:No one is saying that it does become a Grey Knight.

The joining IC is considered a part of a unit of Grey Knights. Grey Knights have the Shrouding.

Boom goes the dynamite.
Try reading the Shrouding rule.

The Grey Knights could have Fluffy pink Unicorns, but the Rule says that it only works when the enemy shoots at "a unit of Grey Knights".


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 21:51:18


Post by: Monster Rain


Gwar! wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:No one is saying that it does become a Grey Knight.

The joining IC is considered a part of a unit of Grey Knights. Grey Knights have the Shrouding.

Boom goes the dynamite.
Try reading the Shrouding rule.

The Grey Knights could have Fluffy pink Unicorns, but the Rule says that it only works when the enemy shoots at "a unit of Grey Knights".


And since the joining IC is considered part of the unit of GKs, there's no problem.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 21:57:50


Post by: Gwar!


Monster Rain wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:No one is saying that it does become a Grey Knight.

The joining IC is considered a part of a unit of Grey Knights. Grey Knights have the Shrouding.

Boom goes the dynamite.
Try reading the Shrouding rule.

The Grey Knights could have Fluffy pink Unicorns, but the Rule says that it only works when the enemy shoots at "a unit of Grey Knights".


And since the joining IC is considered part of the unit of GKs, there's no problem.
Yeah, but it is no longer a unit of Grey Knights. It is a Unit of Grey Knights with an IC attached.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 22:08:03


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:1) Read the tenets of YMDC. Done? Try again with your post



Thanks for bringing this up...

Lorek wrote:
Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC):

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give a basis for a statement; without this, there can be no debate.



What is the basis for the statement. "When a unit of Grey knights joins another unit, it is no longer a unit of grey knights"

Without this basis, you have no debate.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
2) You have still to find a rule which states that the IC, which is PART Of the larger unit, is the Target.

The shooting rules are very specific: you may target ONLY one unit. I am TARGETTING the Unit that contains the IC and the original unit.


You just said it, the shooting rules are very specific, you are targeting ONE unit which is COMPOSED OF multiple units, and therefore, you are targeting the IC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I am not targetting the GK unit. I CANNOT target the GK "unit". It is impossible for me to target, without a special rule, the GK "unit". GOt that yet? It is hideously, plainly simple, but apparently you need it repeating:

I. Am. Not. Targetting (A SPECIFIC BRB TERM). The. GK. "Unit"


So then how would you wound the GK unit if you are not targeting them?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As such Shrouding does not apply. While the GK will be affected by shooting at the combined unit, the GK themselves are not the target.


So now you are saying, that when you target a combined unit, you aren't targeting any of the units in the combination? Hmm, interesting concept... please provide backing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Now you are done. You have no argument that holds water, and I am done here. Once you can prove that targetting, joined, and part of all mean different things (and you STILL dont understand the idea of unit type. Unit type is "infantry", "MC", etc. Not the same as the unit name) to the BRB usage, then come back.


A Farseer casts fortune and guide on itself (it is a lone unit at the beginning of the turn) then joins a unit of Dire Avengers. For the remainder of the turn, the farseer may still reroll its "To-hit" rolls in the shooting phase, while the remainder of the unit (the dire avengers) may not.

If you fire upon the squad, and the farseer is wounded, he may reroll failed saving throw rolls.
Soooo

Examples (involving 40 K) of situations where my argument is proven valid:
4

Examples of situations where the counter-argument is valid:
0 (Unless you count fearless, in which my argument would still stand when a unit of GKs is joined by an Inquisitor, which is currently being argued as well)

Wanna change that ratio, even just a little bit. (and using the most far-fetched extension of the rules as you can)

I won't say you can't, again, I am hoping that you can!

Gwar, Try reading the shrouding again, and show me where it says "When an enemy fires at a unit of Grey Knights (as long as NOTHING is joined to that unit of Grey Knights)" in the Shrouding rule, and I will accept your answer.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 22:18:10


Post by: Gwar!


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Gwar, Try reading the shrouding again, and show me where it says "When an enemy fires at a unit of Grey Knights (as long as NOTHING is joined to that unit of Grey Knights)" in the Shrouding rule, and I will accept your answer.
It doesn't have to, because a Unit of Grey Knights with a Non GK IC is no longer a unit of Grey Knights.

Also, it is my experience that people who make long, rambling posts with multiple quotes tend to have no argument and are simply trying to obscure that fact.

My experience has not let me down in this case.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 22:45:21


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Gwar! wrote:It doesn't have to, because a Unit of Grey Knights with a Non GK IC is no longer a unit of Grey Knights.


Where does it mention this in any rulebook ever?

This is the statement being debated Gwar, rule #1 of the YMDC tenants says "Don't make a statement without backing it up" what is your "backup" for your statement that firing at a unit which consists of a unit of grey knights is not the same as firing at a unit of grey knights.

Gwar! wrote:
Also, it is my experience that people who make long, rambling posts with multiple quotes tend to have no argument and are simply trying to obscure that fact.

My experience has not let me down in this case.


I know, it's hard to argue with people who do that, but I will still try none-the-less!

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 22:45:28


Post by: Monster Rain


Gwar! wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Gwar, Try reading the shrouding again, and show me where it says "When an enemy fires at a unit of Grey Knights (as long as NOTHING is joined to that unit of Grey Knights)" in the Shrouding rule, and I will accept your answer.
It doesn't have to, because a Unit of Grey Knights with a Non GK IC is no longer a unit of Grey Knights.

Also, it is my experience that people who make long, rambling posts with multiple quotes tend to have no argument and are simply trying to obscure that fact.

My experience has not let me down in this case.


That would be the case if DAR wasn't directly answering the quotes that he's using. Correctly.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 22:46:31


Post by: nosferatu1001


DAR - since you missed it, it was the tenet about dictionary definitions and posting complete ones thereof.

I HAVE backed up my argument, many many many times. You have provided rules quotes that actually contradict your claims, but you are too...obtuse to see it.

I am targetting a unit, the unit that WAS originally a GK and Other. The Combined unit is NOT a GK unit and I am NOT targetting the nonexistant GK unit.

You are confusing, yet again, TARGETTING and AFFECTING.

Targetting has a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY specific meaning in 40k. Please go and have a look at it, and finally concede your "case" as invalid.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 22:49:12


Post by: Monster Rain


I can't find anything on TARGETTING in the BRB. Can you provide a page number?

Also, since either it was never addressed(or I missed the reply) is a unit of troops still scoring with an IC attached? According to your logic, it's no longer a unit of troops it's a unit of troops + IC.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 22:55:50


Post by: nosferatu1001


You dont read others posts, do you?

Targetting, and what this entails, is explained in the shooting rules. Go read them.

Unit name (Grey Knights) /= Place in FOC (Troops, Fast Attack, etc) - its really not that hard. Unless you cant tell the difference between place in FOC and the name of a unit that is. Which is it MR?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 23:10:29


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:Unit name (Grey Knights) /= Place in FOC (Troops, Fast Attack, etc) - its really not that hard. Unless you cant tell the difference between place in FOC and the name of a unit that is. Which is it MR?


So yeah, reframing the debate because you can't answer the question directly. Sounds about right.

Classic.

Your argument for why a unit is no longer GKs is equally applicable to the FOC, and that's why it's patently silly.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 23:10:56


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:You dont read others posts, do you?

Targetting, and what this entails, is explained in the shooting rules. Go read them.

Unit name (Grey Knights) /= Place in FOC (Troops, Fast Attack, etc) - its really not that hard. Unless you cant tell the difference between place in FOC and the name of a unit that is. Which is it MR?


"A Firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat"

The "combined unit" would be the single enemy unit.

Part of the Combined unit contains a unit of grey knights

Part of the combined unit is being targed by the enemy unit

The unit of grey knights is being targeted by the enemy unit

The shrouding applies.

Prove otherwise.

*EDIT* I do however have to hand it to whomever originated the Idea that the shrouding rule would not apply to the grey knights if they are a part of any sort of combined unit.

For the mountain of evidence that speaks to the contrary of this argument, and the little-to-no evidence supporting (noone has provided any in his thread) he must have had quite the charisma to have brainwashed so many people... he should start a religion!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 23:11:07


Post by: Gwar!


Monster Rain wrote:Your argument for why a unit is no longer GKs is equally applicable to the FOC, and that's why it's patently silly.
Except it isn't?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 23:21:15


Post by: Monster Rain


Gwar! wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:Your argument for why a unit is no longer GKs is equally applicable to the FOC, and that's why it's patently silly.
Except it isn't?


But a unit of tactical marines with an IC attached isn't a unit of tactical marines any more. It's... something else.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 23:22:50


Post by: Gwar!


Monster Rain wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:Your argument for why a unit is no longer GKs is equally applicable to the FOC, and that's why it's patently silly.
Except it isn't?


But a unit of tactical marines with an IC attached isn't a unit of tactical marines any more. It's... something else.
It doesn't matter. The Tactical Marine unit is a Troops Choice. The IC is an HQ (example) Choice.

The Two units are not the same unit (which is what you are trying to imply), he is only joined to it. At the end of the game, you have 2 units within range of the Objective, an HQ and a Troops, so you can take the Objective.

By your logic, a unit of Storm Troopers joined by a GKGM suddenly have Shrouding, even though it is not a Grey Knights unit, which is what Shrouding looks for.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 23:33:33


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Gwar! wrote:The Two units are not the same unit (which is what you are trying to imply), he is only joined to it. At the end of the game, you have 2 units within range of the Objective, an HQ and a Troops, so you can take the Objective.


Ok, so the units are NOT THE SAME UNIT, therefor, you are firing at TWO units when shooting at a Combined unit containing a GK.

Shrouding only requires that a grey knight unit be targeted.

If one of the two units being fired at (your example being, troop/hq at end of game being two units in 1 combined unit) is a unit of Grey Knights, then the condition of The Shrouding is met.

There is no evidence that would suggest that "The Shrouding" rule cares if the unit of Grey knights has anything attached to it or not, just that if a unit of grey knights is targeted, the effect activates.


Gwar! wrote:
By your logic, a unit of Storm Troopers joined by a GKGM suddenly have Shrouding, even though it is not a Grey Knights unit, which is what Shrouding looks for.


Actually, by YOUR logic, the storm troops would be PROTECTED by the GKGM's Shrouding as the Shrouding looks only for the Unit of Grey Knights to be present, which that condition is met (when a unit of Grey Knights is part of a combined unit).


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 23:46:45


Post by: Gwar!


-sigh- Did you bother reading my argument? A Unit of Stormtroopers with GKGM is not a unit of Grey Knights, so shrouding doesn't protect them.

The same way as a unit of Grey Knights with a non-GK IC is not a unit of Grey Knights.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/25 23:56:07


Post by: Oshova




So Shrouding isn't conferred onto the unit meaning the unit doesn't have Shrouding . .

So it doesn't matter whether the unit counts as a Grey Knight unit, or whatver. Because the UNIT doesn't have shrouding. An IC stuck onto the unit does.

Your example of Typhus's defensive grenades falls flat on it's face. We're talking about special rules, not equipment.

So in summation. The unit doesn't count as a Grey Knight unit. The unit doesn't have Shrouding. And you can shoot the unit as easily as a big pink elephant dancing the fandango . . . Or something like that.

So please, unless YOU can prove that the unit is a unit of Grey Knights, then please stop posting that the unit can use Shrouding, or any other Grey Knight specific special rule.

Oshova


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:09:24


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Oshova wrote:
So Shrouding isn't conferred onto the unit meaning the unit doesn't have Shrouding . .

So it doesn't matter whether the unit counts as a Grey Knight unit, or whatver. Because the UNIT doesn't have shrouding. An IC stuck onto the unit does.


Dude, I think you are missing the major argument, and the rule that states that an IC is a unit. The entire unit does not need to have the shrouding for the shrouding to be active, nothing in the rules says that it would.



Oshova wrote:
Your example of Typhus's defensive grenades falls flat on it's face. We're talking about special rules, not equipment.


"Blight grenades" is a special rule on page 38 of C:CSM.

Oshova wrote:
So in summation. The unit doesn't count as a Grey Knight unit. The unit doesn't have Shrouding. And you can shoot the unit as easily as a big pink elephant dancing the fandango . . . Or something like that.

So please, unless YOU can prove that the unit is a unit of Grey Knights, then please stop posting that the unit can use Shrouding, or any other Grey Knight specific special rule.

Oshova


I did prove the unit consists of a unit of grey knights, and thus, the shrouding would activate. Shrouding does not specify that it MUST be a unit of ONLY grey knights. Until you can prove otherwise, I think I'll keep posting. Thanks for the suggestion tho.

~DAR

P.S.
@Gwar, Why does the shrouding not protect them? You have yet to explain where in the rules it states that "The Shrouding" only works on "Units wholly made up of grey knights". Your Troop/HQ Unit example states that they still hold their two original unit values. If a GKGM would still hold its unit value of "Grey Knight Unit" then why would The Shrouding not activate if he was joined to a unit of troops (IST)? Is not the Shrouding's condition of "A Unit Of Grey Knights being targeted" not met? (Much like the "Scoring Units" rule's condition of "Must be troops" is still met when joined by an Independent Character that is not troops)

Scoring units does not say "Must be troops, and CANNOT BE COMBINED WITH ANY NON-TROOP to be scoring" So why is "The Shrouding" auto-magically "A unit of Grey knights, and CANNOT BE COMBINED WITH ANY NON-GREY KNIGHTS to be protected by shrouding?"


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:11:17


Post by: Darth Bob


Oshova wrote:
So Shrouding isn't conferred onto the unit meaning the unit doesn't have Shrouding . .

So it doesn't matter whether the unit counts as a Grey Knight unit, or whatver. Because the UNIT doesn't have shrouding. An IC stuck onto the unit does.


No, but it doesn't have to confer it for the Shrouding to still work. It is not a question of whether it confers it to the other unit, but whether the unit which already has it loses its ability to use it because it joined another unit. This comment is irrelevant.


Oshova wrote:
Your example of Typhus's defensive grenades falls flat on it's face. We're talking about special rules, not equipment.


Wrong. Typhus has a Special Rule called "The Destroyer Hive" which makes him count as having Defensive and Frag grenades. The "defensive grenades" are gifted by a Special Rule, not wargear.


Oshova wrote:
So in summation. The unit doesn't count as a Grey Knight unit. The unit doesn't have Shrouding. And you can shoot the unit as easily as a big pink elephant dancing the fandango . . . Or something like that.

So please, unless YOU can prove that the unit is a unit of Grey Knights, then please stop posting that the unit can use Shrouding, or any other Grey Knight specific special rule.

Oshova




Did you read any of our comments?

We are not claiming the combined unit is a GK unit!!!!!!!

You have a combined unit.

There is a Stormtrooper unit and a GK unit that make the combined unit..

You shoot the combined unit.

What did you just shoot at? A Stormtrooper unit and a GK unit.

What happens when you shoot a Grey Knight unit?

Shrouding.


I don't know how many more times I have to explain this.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:13:21


Post by: Ordo Dakka


Plenty of other special rules are provided to squads by units joining them, but it always states that the rule is conferred to any squad the character/unit joins. I think that might be the difference here.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:16:13


Post by: calypso2ts


All this convoluted argument is doing is prompting people to play wiht GK incorrectly. Luckily, this won't happen for long.

The entire basis for Gwar, Nos and my own posts is simple.

A unit of GK is not the same as a unit of (anything else) with an attached IC.

If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:26:47


Post by: Monster Rain


calypso2ts wrote:The entire basis for Gwar, Nos and my own posts is simple.

A unit of GK is not the same as a unit of (anything else) with an attached IC.

If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.


If you'd prove it with rules instead of constant appeals to your own authority you might convince someone.

Speaking of fallacies.



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:31:50


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote:
If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.


You assume that in order for "The shrouding" to function, then the ENTIRE unit must be ENTIRELY composed of GKs.

If there is a specific quote in the rules which confirms this, you would have posted it.

Instead there are a number of cries of "Because we said so" without any actual rule based backing, and ignoring the rules provided which DOES specifically show examples of how Combined units retain their original values, being used to say that this is the case.

@Ordo, the question of if the rule is CONFERRED to the ENTIRE unit is not what is being discussed here (At least, I hope not, if so then its OBVIOUS why so many of you seem to think contrary), the question is "is the Shrouding Lost" we all seem to agree "No" so as it is NOT lost by the unit which had it, WHY does it "Fail to activate" when the unit (which contains a unit of grey knights, as described in the condition for the rule to function) is targeted by "Shooting".



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:33:52


Post by: Gwar!


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:You assume that in order for "The shrouding" to function, then the ENTIRE unit must be ENTIRELY composed of GKs.

If there is a specific quote in the rules which confirms this, you would have posted it.
How about this:
"Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights...."

That is word for word what the shrouding says (See, I can quote without scanning books illegally).

A Unit of Grey Knights with a non-GK character is no longer a unit of Grey Knights.

It really is that simple.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:39:03


Post by: Ordo Dakka


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
calypso2ts wrote:
If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.


You assume that in order for "The shrouding" to function, then the ENTIRE unit must be ENTIRELY composed of GKs.


Yeah, because in every other case the rule specifically states that it is conferred to a squad joined by the IC/Unit with the rule. The Shrouding does not state this, it is Grey Knight units only, and the rule is not said to be conferred. Assuming that it is goes against the grain for all the other rules in the game, surely the burden of proof is on you?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:42:31


Post by: Darth Bob


Ordo Dakka wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
calypso2ts wrote:
If there is a specific quote in the rules which states that a unit joined by an IC counts as a GK, then shrouding's criteria can be fulfilled...pssst...there is not, if there was you would ahve posted it, instead there are a number of extremely broad logical leaps, fallacies and contradictions that are being used to try to say that is the case.


You assume that in order for "The shrouding" to function, then the ENTIRE unit must be ENTIRELY composed of GKs.


Yeah, because in every other case the rule specifically states that it is conferred to a squad joined by the IC/Unit with the rule. The Shrouding does not state this, it is Grey Knight units only, and the rule is not said to be conferred. Assuming that it is goes against the grain for all the other rules in the game, surely the burden of proof is on you?


It doesn't need to be conferred for the ability to still work. If the GK unit within the combined unit has the rule, then the fact that the other part of the combined unit doesn't have/get conferred the rule is irrelevant.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 01:45:43


Post by: Gwar!


But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 02:07:44


Post by: Darth Bob


Gwar! wrote:But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!


But there is a unit of Grey Knights IN IT. Since you shoot every part of the unit when you shoot it and PART OF IT IS A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS...you incur Shrouding.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 02:31:05


Post by: Gwar!


Darth Bob wrote:
Gwar! wrote:But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!


But there is a unit of Grey Knights IN IT. Since you shoot every part of the unit when you shoot it and PART OF IT IS A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS...you incur Shrouding.
That isn't what the rule says though!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 02:33:12


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


What if you don't shoot at the GK part of the unit? And as Nos has pointed out it is against the rules to fire at 2 units at the same time so how do you have 2 units in 1? With your 2 in 1 theory no one could shoot at it without violating the rules so you don't need shrouding since the unit can't be shot at.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 02:45:08


Post by: Darth Bob


Gwar! wrote:
Darth Bob wrote:
Gwar! wrote:But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!


But there is a unit of Grey Knights IN IT. Since you shoot every part of the unit when you shoot it and PART OF IT IS A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS...you incur Shrouding.
That isn't what the rule says though!


It says it activates when you shoot a unit of Grey Knights. One of the ingredients of the combined unit is a unit of Grey Knights, so you are still shooting a unit of Grey Knights!



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 02:48:37


Post by: Gwar!


Darth Bob wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Darth Bob wrote:
Gwar! wrote:But the combined unit is NOT A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so the rule doesn't work anyway!


But there is a unit of Grey Knights IN IT. Since you shoot every part of the unit when you shoot it and PART OF IT IS A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS...you incur Shrouding.
That isn't what the rule says though!


It says it activates when you shoot a unit of Grey Knights. One of the ingredients of the combined unit is a unit of Grey Knights, so you are still shooting a unit of Grey Knights!

You aren't though, you are shooting a "Unit of Grey Knights + an IC", which is not a "Unit of Grey Knights."


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 02:51:31


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Leo_the_Rat wrote:What if you don't shoot at the GK part of the unit?


You can't see the rules about IC and shooting for more details

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
And as Nos has pointed out it is against the rules to fire at 2 units at the same time so how do you have 2 units in 1? With your 2 in 1 theory no one could shoot at it without violating the rules so you don't need shrouding since the unit can't be shot at.


You are firing at the "Combined Unit"

The "Combined unit" contains a unit of grey knights

Because you are firing at a unit of grey knights

You must roll for shrouding.

I submit to you this!

As the rules have absolutely no mention of a unit of Grey Knights no longer being a "unit of grey knights" when joined/joining other units, so therefore they are still a unit of grey knights, and as such, are still able of having their passive special rules (Aegis, Shrouding, Exorcism Rites, etc) followed. As nothing in the rules currently states they are no longer a unit of grey knights when attached, then when the combined unit (including them) is targeted, then their sub-type of "being a unit of grey knights" still applies, and as such, the Shrouding roll still applies.

Does this mean that a unit of Death company, with 9 sanguinary priests, Astorath the Grim and a GKGM still count as a unit of grey knights when being targeted? Yes! and as the RAW holds no mention of otherwise, if following RAW, this is how it works (Gwar, you should respect this notion).

If you would like to "Propose" this rule be changed, by all means, propose it. Until such Errata occurs, this is how the rules read, and how they should be played.

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 02:53:06


Post by: Gwar!


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Does this mean that a unit of Death company, with 9 sanguinary priests, Astorath the Grim and a GKGM still count as a unit of grey knights when being targeted? Yes! and as the RAW holds no mention of otherwise, if following RAW, this is how it works (Gwar, you should respect this notion).
LMFAO.

And this is why no-one listens to you.

For the record, I do follow RaW. What you are doing is so against the RaW I don't think there is even a word for it.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 03:17:41


Post by: Ordo Dakka


Daemon-Archon, it seems you are following the rules-as-not-prohibited rather than the rules-as-written. There is no evidence to support that Grey Knights grant this rule to a unit they join. There is, however, precedent to suggest that if that WAS the way the rule was intended to work, it would say so in the rule's entry.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 03:31:13


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
the rules have absolutely no mention of a unit of Grey Knights no longer being a "unit of grey knights" when joined/joining other units,


Insult me all you want Gwar, until you prove otherwise, the above statement is correct.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 03:36:58


Post by: Ordo Dakka


Lets just leave it as a judgment call


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 03:47:57


Post by: Darth Bob


Gwar! wrote:
For the record, I do follow RaW. What you are doing is so against the RaW I don't think there is even a word for it.


Give one RAW thing that says there is a problem with DAR's statement. Exactly, you can't.

You are saying a model loses its seperate unit status by joining another unit. You have no proof of this. So until you do, you're wrong.

P.S.

I went to my LGS and brought this up. For all of you who are on your high and mighty horse saying "Oh DAR and Darth Bob are just idiots who don't play real 40k.", the division of people for Shrouding and against Shrouding was very even. We had a few of our gaming veterans; men who've been playing 40k since the rogue trader days who completely agreed with DAR and I's statement.

The fact is, this is a completely legitimate interpretation of how this ruling should go. So stop with the "this is why no-one listens to you" or "Careful what you say because it could get you banned" comments, put on your big boy pants, and actually use viable reason and evidence to back up your argument. Otherwise, it's all hot air.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 04:10:07


Post by: Ordo Dakka


Oh I believe you that it was divided, i'm only saying what I believe. I didn't mean to be a tool, sorry if it came off that way.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 04:13:51


Post by: Darth Bob


Ordo Dakka wrote:Oh I believe you that it was divided, i'm only saying what I believe. I didn't mean to be a tool, sorry if it came off that way.


No, no, no. That comment was general, not directed at you.

I'm simply trying to tell all the people who are (indirectly) calling DAR an idiot (instead of actually rebuttling his argument with equally good arguments) to grow up.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 04:15:41


Post by: Monster Rain


Darth Bob wrote:
Ordo Dakka wrote:Oh I believe you that it was divided, i'm only saying what I believe. I didn't mean to be a tool, sorry if it came off that way.


No, no, no. That comment was general, not directed at you.

I'm simply trying to tell all the people who are (indirectly) calling DAR an idiot (instead of actually rebuttling his argument with equally good arguments) to grow up.


Particularly when he showed pictures of the rules that they claim prove them right.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 04:23:33


Post by: calypso2ts


No you are claiming they remain distinct entities for the purposes of shooting, which they do not. The shooting rules even state you shoot at the entire unit and you treat an IC as being part of that unit.

Since they are all being shot at, and they are not all GK's, it is not a unit of GK - EDIT: Further there are no rules at all which allow you to target a 'sub unit' or even make a distinction between shooting at 'sub units' of any type (or combined unit or whatever you like) - hence, you shoot the entire unit which is not a unit of gk's

The rules reference we are using is simple...the rules of shrouding itself which explicitly requires a unit of GK's...

No matter what, an IC JOINED to a GK unit is JOINED to the unit, for shooting it is treated exactly like it is a single unit, even for shrouding (unless otherwise specified of course).


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 04:36:18


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote:
No matter what, an IC JOINED to a GK unit is JOINED to the unit, for shooting it is treated exactly like it is a single unit, even for shrouding (unless otherwise specified of course).


You know what, I'm done with showing you mountains of evidence, that you refuse to accept, so now I offer you a SINGLE challenge which will require a single entry of evidence.

Prove it.

Prove that there are WORDS IN ANY GW RULE BOOK I REFERENCE TO THE CURRENT EDITION OF WARHAMMER 40K (Even prior editions for that matter) that the claim of.

"A unit that has been defined by page 20 of C: DH as a "Grey Knight" unit is no longer a "Grey Knight Unit" when joined/or joining a Non-Grey Knight unit"

Balls in your court.
~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 05:25:23


Post by: Nigglesworth


Let us say that a GK unit is equal to 2. Then let us go on to say that any other non GK unit is 1. The rules state that when shooting at 2, shroud goes off. When you join a GK unit with a non GK unit, you simply add them to obtain 3. 3 is no longer defined as 1 or 2. When shooting, you shoot at 3. You don't say I'm shooting at 1+2. For all we know 3 could have been 1+1+1 or 0+3. There is only one unit being shot at. The rules clearly state that this unit has become one single new unit. This one single unit isn't "a unit of GK. " This new unit is "GK+ non GK." Do the rules say when shooting at "a unit of GK+ non GK?" They don't. If units worked the way you are claiming I could say, "I'm going to shoot into your assault squad with an attached Sanguinary Priest, but only direct my shots at the Sanguinary Priest because after all it is an assault squad and a Sanguinary Priest, two separate units within a unit." This obviously would not work as they become one new unit. So the GK+ non GK are a new unit, which no longer defines itself as a unit of GK. For the sake of the first part 1+1=3.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 05:30:29


Post by: Ordo Dakka


Someone should draw a venn daigram or something


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 05:43:56


Post by: Darth Bob


I'm done. It's obvious that you all are just going to recycle the same nonsense reasoning over and over again, and I'm not going to dignify said nonsense with a practical C&P of the same answer I (and DAR) gave before.

Let me know when you answer the question put forward by DAR, because until you do that, you have nothing.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 05:52:48


Post by: Nigglesworth


Darth Bob wrote:I'm done. It's obvious that you all are just going to recycle the same logical reasoning over and over again, and I'm not going to dignify said logical reasoning with a practical answer.

Let me know when you find a way to explain common sense to me.

Fixed.
If the rules say it only affects a unit of GKs and you have agreed the unit is not a unit of GKs anymore then what is there to argue?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 05:56:46


Post by: Gorkamorka


Darth Bob wrote:I'm done. It's obvious that you all are just going to recycle the same nonsense reasoning over and over again, and I'm not going to dignify said nonsense with a practical C&P of the same answer I (and DAR) gave before.

Let me know when you answer the question put forward by DAR, because until you do that, you have nothing.

I'd really like to see proof that a unit of GKs + Something Else is the same as a unit of GKs.

Is a basket of apples with an orange in it the same as a basket of apples? Not in English it isn't. Or mathematics... or logic...
Without any rules backing you're simply wrong. The rules ask, specifically, for a unit of GKs.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 06:31:26


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Nigglesworth wrote:Let us say that a GK unit is equal to 2. Then let us go on to say that any other non GK unit is 1. The rules state that when shooting at 2, shroud goes off. When you join a GK unit with a non GK unit, you simply add them to obtain 3. 3 is no longer defined as 1 or 2. When shooting, you shoot at 3. You don't say I'm shooting at 1+2. For all we know 3 could have been 1+1+1 or 0+3. There is only one unit being shot at. The rules clearly state that this unit has become one single new unit. This one single unit isn't "a unit of GK. " This new unit is "GK+ non GK." Do the rules say when shooting at "a unit of GK+ non GK?" They don't. If units worked the way you are claiming I could say, "I'm going to shoot into your assault squad with an attached Sanguinary Priest, but only direct my shots at the Sanguinary Priest because after all it is an assault squad and a Sanguinary Priest, two separate units within a unit." This obviously would not work as they become one new unit. So the GK+ non GK are a new unit, which no longer defines itself as a unit of GK. For the sake of the first part 1+1=3.


What page from the rule book are you referencing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gorkamorka wrote: Not in English it isn't. Or mathematics... or logic...


Too bad this isn't English, or mathematics, or logic, its Warhammer 40K 5th Edition

Gorkamorka wrote:
Without any rules backing you're simply wrong. The rules ask, specifically, for a unit of GKs.


I list the rules that back my argument, please take the time to read each page before posting.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 06:52:34


Post by: Gorkamorka


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
I list the rules that back my argument, please take the time to read each page before posting.

I have, thank you very much.

You really didn't prove anything, hence the pages of argument since. Your entire point is based on this unproven unsupported "part of a combined squad is good enough" nonsense.
The rule says a unit of GKs. Not a unit that consists partly of GKs or contains a unit of GKs or a unit of GKs with an attached IC.


You are firing at the "Combined Unit"

The "Combined unit" contains a unit of grey knights

Because you are firing at a unit of grey knights

Right there is where your point falls apart, hard.
You're not firing at a unit of grey knights... you're firing at a combined unit. Sure it contains a unit of grey knights... BUT IT ISN'T A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS.

All that the rule works for is a unit of grey knights. Nothing more, nothing less.
A combined unit that contains a unit of grey knights simply isn't a unit of grey knights, and you fire at the combined unit... not the grey knight unit component. It's really that simple.


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:You are firing at the "Combined Unit"
The rules wrote:Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights

Quoted for emphasis.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 07:20:33


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Gorkamorka wrote:
Right there is where your point falls apart, hard.
You're not firing at a unit of grey knights... you're firing at a combined unit. Sure it contains a unit of grey knights... BUT IT ISN'T A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS.

All that the rule works for is a unit of grey knights. Nothing more, nothing less.


prove it, using words from the BRB/C: DH as I have.

Not logic

Not theory

Not "Personal Interpretation"

Show me WORDS from C: DH and/or the BRB that state "When a Unit of Grey Knights joins/is joined by a unit of Non-Grey knights, it ceases to be a unit of grey knights"



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 07:23:51


Post by: Gwar!


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Gorkamorka wrote:
Right there is where your point falls apart, hard.
You're not firing at a unit of grey knights... you're firing at a combined unit. Sure it contains a unit of grey knights... BUT IT ISN'T A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS.

All that the rule works for is a unit of grey knights. Nothing more, nothing less.


prove it, using words from the BRB/C: DH as I have.

Not logic

Not theory

Not "Personal Interpretation"

Show me WORDS from C: DH and/or the BRB that state "When a Unit of Grey Knights joins/is joined by a unit of Non-Grey knights, it ceases to be a unit of grey knights"
Show me where it defines what "one" or "dice" means in the BRB too.

The fact is, the rules are written in English, you HAVE to use the English language or the rules do not work.

P.S. Asking for proof when you yourself are the ones who need to show it is considered bad form.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 09:22:38


Post by: nosferatu1001


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Gorkamorka wrote:
Right there is where your point falls apart, hard.
You're not firing at a unit of grey knights... you're firing at a combined unit. Sure it contains a unit of grey knights... BUT IT ISN'T A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS.

All that the rule works for is a unit of grey knights. Nothing more, nothing less.


prove it, using words from the BRB/C: DH as I have.

Not logic

Not theory

Not "Personal Interpretation"

Show me WORDS from C: DH and/or the BRB that state "When a Unit of Grey Knights joins/is joined by a unit of Non-Grey knights, it ceases to be a unit of grey knights"



You havent proven it.

You must prove that, when targetting a combined unit (the only thing you are allowed to do) you are targetting the individual models.

You are not given permission to make the HUGE fallacious leap to saying that targeting [combined unit] == targetting [component "units"] - mainly because this would break the rules stating that you can only target one unit.

Balls in your court: prove you can target 2 units with one shooting attack. Good luck!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 17:52:14


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:
You must prove that, when targetting a combined unit (the only thing you are allowed to do) you are targetting the individual models.


Why? The Shrouding's rule is not exclusive, I am only proving that when targeting a combined unit of "A + B" you are also simultaneously targeting both A and B, and if there are rules that would limit your ability to Shoot either A or B, they would be still present when firing at both A and B as there are no rules to suggest otherwise.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are not given permission to make the HUGE fallacious leap to saying that targeting [combined unit] == targetting [component "units"] - mainly because this would break the rules stating that you can only target one unit.


Who's permission do I need? Unless you are going back to your "Permissive" Rule theory, which is inherently false. The Eldar Codex states that the abilities of "Fortune" last until the start of the Next Eldar Turn" according to permissive rules, this means that if Two Eldar players are against each other, their fortune duration would end as each opponents turn began (making them rather useless).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Balls in your court: prove you can target 2 units with one shooting attack. Good luck!


Ok, I have a combined unit of 10 assault termis, a Sanguinary priest, and a BA Captain. I shoot the entire unit with a demolisher cannon, kill 5 termis, the S-Priest and the Captain. I would gain the victory points/kill points for the unit of the BA Captain, the unit of the S-Priest, and half the VPs for the termis. How would I get points from multiple units if I only was able to shoot at one of them? Seems rather strange to me!

Gwar! wrote:Show me where it defines what "one" or "dice" means in the BRB too.

The fact is, the rules are written in English, you HAVE to use the English language or the rules do not work.

P.S. Asking for proof when you yourself are the ones who need to show it is considered bad form.



umm, while they don't define "One" they do define Dice
page 2 wrote:
DICE
DICE (D6)
In a Warhammer 40,000 battle you often need to roll
dice to see how the actions of your models turn out –
how effective their shooting is, what damage they’ve
done to a vehicle, how far they fall back from enemy
fire, and so on. Almost all of the dice rolls in
Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually
referred to as ‘D6’).


Also, if you HAVE to use english, why do they bother printing the book in other languages?

Why am I the only one required to have proof for his claims? The Tenants state that ANY statement must have backing not "Any statement made by DAR must have proof, statements by GWAR do not need proof as that would require him to do some actual work in referencing his claims"

Even on the topic of "English Language" I have already proven, by posting the English definition of the word "Join" that nothing in the english language would suggest that by joining you forfeit your original characteristics in favor of that of the groups.

So, since YOU are using the English language (incorrectly) as your major supporting argument, then I should be allowed to use an example from the english language to support my claim.

Joe gets banned from GW.

There is a sign on the door at GW saying "Joe is banned"

Joe joins Bob and decides to go to GW

According to how you define "Join" Joe would be allowed into Games workshop, as he is no longer "Joe" but "Joe and Bob".

However, the English language, disagrees with you, as he is still Joe.

Bob can enter the store without Joe, but Joe will always be Joe (unless he legally changes his name, which is an EXCEPTION) no matter how many people he joins with and as such, will remain banned from the store.

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 18:15:51


Post by: nosferatu1001


Except you are NOT simulataneous targetting, as you would be targetting TWO UNITS. Find the rule that states you can target TWO UNITS and you may have a point.

Oh wait, you cannot.

You also misunderstand what is meant by Permissive ruleset: the rules tell you what you CAN do (i.e. give you permission) they dont tell you what you cannot do (i.e. restrict you)

You are also conflating "target" and "Shoot", when they are different words with different uses. You are only given permission to target ONE unit. The unit I am targetting is the combined unit, not the non-existant GKGM who is now part of the combined unit.

I am not, therefore, targetting a GK unit. Check, mate, etc.

(and oh look: exactly the same answer as prior your off target and irrleevant rules postings. surprise)


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 18:31:24


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you are NOT simulataneous targetting, as you would be targetting TWO UNITS. Find the rule that states you can target TWO UNITS and you may have a point.


A combined unit = unit of two or more combined units. If you can target a combined unit (which you can, according to the rules for shooting and the rules for shooting at ICs) you can target TWO (or more) Units, as that is what you are doing when you fire at a combined unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You also misunderstand what is meant by Permissive ruleset: the rules tell you what you CAN do (i.e. give you permission) they dont tell you what you cannot do (i.e. restrict you)


So then, laws (which are by definition the RULES of society) must explicitly state what you CAN do as opposed to what you CAN'T do. So therefore, by your definition of permissive rules, it is illegal to take a shower on tuesday (or any other day for that matter) as there are no laws which support taking a shower...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are also conflating "target" and "Shoot", when they are different words with different uses. You are only given permission to target ONE unit. The unit I am targetting is the combined unit, not the non-existant GKGM who is now part of the combined unit.


So now the GKGM is non-existant? where is your proof for this?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I am not, therefore, targetting a GK unit. Check, mate, etc.


If the GKGM no longer exists, then yes, you are not targeting a GK unit (unless another GK unit is involved in the unit). However, you have yet to prove the GKGM ceases to exist when he joins another unit.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
(and oh look: exactly the same answer as prior your off target and irrleevant rules postings. surprise)


So you are openly admitting to not advancing your claims in any way? Cool!

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 18:32:14


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


You are not allowed to target the lone GK Hero in another unit. This is stated on p49 of the BRB first paragraph under shooting at independent characters. Shrouding only kicks in when you are firing at the GK unit. Since by rule you can not target the GK Hero you can not fire at it. Therefore the shrouding rules can not come into play. Yes, the character can be affected by the attack but that is the choice you make when you join a character to a unit. You do not have to allocate any wounds to him so it is purely your choice as to what to do. (BRB p49) In any case in no way can your opponent aim at or fire at the GK hero if he is joined to a unit of something else.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 18:37:59


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Leo_the_Rat wrote: You do not have to allocate any wounds to him so it is purely your choice as to what to do. (BRB p49) In any case in no way can your opponent aim at or fire at the GK hero if he is joined to a unit of something else.


So then, if a GK hero is attached to a squad of 5 Tac marines, and you fire at that squad, and deal 8 wounds, according to YOU I don't have to allocate any wounds to the GK Hero, and if my opponent objects, I can tell him that "In no way can he aim or fire at my GK hero if my hero is joined to a unit of something else"

Also, what happens if your unit is entirely composed of characters, such as a GK hero, a Sanguinary priest, and a SM Captain. There is not "1 Prevalent" unit, and as you state, opponents cannot target or fire at characters as per the IC firing rules, is the multi-character unit then safe from being fired at period?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 18:57:49


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


ICs joining other IC is covered under their own section of rules. As to wound distribution I'm not claiming anything the rules say that you can allocate wounds not that you must. If you don't like the way the rules are written then I suggest you write GW.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 19:10:22


Post by: calypso2ts


The GKGM is non-existant for the purposes of targeting is Nos's point. One cannot possibly target the GKGM, because the rules for IC explicitly state an IC attached to a squad cannot be picked out as a target. In the place of the GKGM is a unit, of which the GKGM is a member...?

This really is quite ridiculous, also I love that you think you can target more than one unit with shooting...pssst..you cannot....

So if they are two units then they must not be able to be targeted since only a single unit can be nominated as a target for shooting. Attached a GKGM does not just gives shrouding, it gives immunity to all targeting of shooting attacks as does every other IC in existence...

Permission means permissive rule set, which is how the rules work. You need permission to do something. If something is not explicitly 'disallowed' that does not necessarily enable you to do it....You do know what a permissive rule set is, right?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 19:31:13


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote:The GKGM is non-existant for the purposes of targeting is Nos's point. One cannot possibly target the GKGM, because the rules for IC explicitly state an IC attached to a squad cannot be picked out as a target. In the place of the GKGM is a unit, of which the GKGM is a member...?


He cannot be picked out individually, but the rules make no suggestion that he is not "considered a target" when joined to another unit. Infact, they suggest otherwise, that he IS considered a target, so then the act of shooting a unit which contains a unit of grey knights, consists of targeting a unit of grey knights as well. Thus shrouding.

calypso2ts wrote:
This really is quite ridiculous, also I love that you think you can target more than one unit with shooting...pssst..you cannot....


A combined unit = two or more units, they have rules for firing at combined units, they have rules for targetting two units with shooting. Also, there ARE PLENTY of codex specific rules for targeting more then one unit with shooting. I don't need to bring those up however, as the BRB already supports my stand, and I have provided the evidence of such, you have yet shown any such evidence for you claims, you just claim there are pieces of the rules (which I have shown) that support your claims based on your own definitions of words in the English language.

calypso2ts wrote:
So if they are two units then they must not be able to be targeted since only a single unit can be nominated as a target for shooting. Attached a GKGM does not just gives shrouding, it gives immunity to all targeting of shooting attacks as does every other IC in existence...


A combined unit = two or more units, they have rules for firing at combined units, they have rules for targetting two units with shooting. Also, there ARE PLENTY of codex specific rules for targeting more then one unit with shooting. I don't need to bring those up however, as the BRB already supports my stand, and I have provided the evidence of such, you have yet shown any such evidence for you claims, you just claim there are pieces of the rules (which I have shown) that support your claims based on your own definitions of words in the English language.

calypso2ts wrote:
Permission means permissive rule set, which is how the rules work. You need permission to do something. If something is not explicitly 'disallowed' that does not necessarily enable you to do it....You do know what a permissive rule set is, right?


Permissive rules: Permissive rules are marked by the words "shall be permitted." So how again are any of the rules being discussed "Permissive rules" (Keep in mind, I am a Law Minor with specialization in contracting, via my job for the Department of Defense, I deal with stuff like this on a daily basis for work)

Leo_the_Rat wrote: As to wound distribution I'm not claiming anything the rules say that you can allocate wounds not that you must.


What?!? Please clarify what you are saying with this statement.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 19:36:32


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


[quote=Daemon-Archon Ren
So then, if a GK hero is attached to a squad of 5 Tac marines, and you fire at that squad, and deal 8 wounds, according to YOU I don't have to allocate any wounds to the GK Hero, and if my opponent objects, I can tell him that "In no way can he aim or fire at my GK hero if my hero is joined to a unit of something else" [ /quote]

I was answering your question. As per the rules on p49 ICs can be allocated wounds not that they must be allocated wounds. This is in regard to shooting only. Consult the rules for assault as to HTH rules.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 19:41:08


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I was answering your question. As per the rules on p49 ICs can be allocated wounds not that the must be allocated wounds.


So then you agree, if I have 8 wounds(caused by shooting) on a 5 man tac squad joined by an IC, I can CHOOSE NOT to allocate any of the wounds to the IC?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 19:45:29


Post by: jy2


Wow...this is getting long. Ok, first of all, I skipped to the end without having to read all the posts after page 1 so I apologize if what I've said has already been said. Secondly, here's my take.

Here you have 1 unit (GK hero) with a special rule (shrouding) joining another unit without the special rule (let's say IST's). Now, we all know that the special rules of 1 unit is not automatically passed onto the other unit unless it explicitly states so. For example, if you join Kharne to a squad of Chaos Space Marines, when they charge, only Kharne receives the benefit of his Furious Charge, not the entire unit that he has joined. Likewise, if you give a Justicar frag grenades, when they assault a unit in cover, only the Justicar attacks at regular initiative....all the other grey knights in the unit will attack at I1.

In this case, the GK hero benefits from shrouding but the IST's he attaches to does not as shrouding is not automatically passed onto the unit. If you fire at the "unit", since you cannot target the GKGM separately, then you are actually shooting at the unit of IST's even though the firee my allocate the hit onto the GKGM. Since the unit does not have shrouding, then you need not test for it.



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 19:46:02


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


By RaW yes. You would be perfectly within your rights not to allocate any wounds to the IC.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 19:59:12


Post by: Nigglesworth


Pg. 49- "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets."
They are part of the unit. There is only one unit. You don't target two units at once. Just one new combined unit. The rule calls for a unit of GKs to be shot at. The unit being shot at is one unit of some GK part and some non GK part, but it is still considered one whole unit. Therefore you have no unit of GKs as this is not a unit of GKs, but in fact, a unit of GKs and non GKs, which the rules say nothing about.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 19:59:50


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


jy2 wrote:
In this case, the GK hero benefits from shrouding but the IST's he attaches to does not as shrouding is not automatically passed onto the unit. If you fire at the "unit", since you cannot target the GKGM separately, then you are actually shooting at the unit of IST's even though the firee my allocate the hit onto the GKGM. Since the unit does not have shrouding, then you need not test for it.


Jy, your post is civil, and well written, however I must disagree.

If the rule for the shrouding worked like Yarrik's old force-filed (which specifically states that HITS against him have their strength reduced by d6) then you would be ENTIRELY correct, as you CANNOT allocate HITS to the GKGM before firing takes place, however the shrouding merely requires that a unit of grey knights be targeted, and that if the grey knight unit targeted, is not found to be within the range of the dice rolled for the shrouding, the shooting does not take place.

As you said, the ISTs do not have the shrouding, so as such, they are not protected by the shrouding, however, the GKGM DOES have the shrouding, as he is part of the unit being fired at, and he is a unit of grey knights, then the Shrouding would activate, and if successful (meaning, the Grey Knight is found to be out of range of the firers) then the shooting CANNOT take place and NONE of the unit is shot at. As stated, you cannot target the GKGM individually, just like you cannot target the ISTs seperately, you must target BOTH units, and when you are targeting BOTH units, you fulfill the requirement of "Targeting a unit of grey knights" as one of the units you are targeting, is a unit of Grey Knights.

Does it make sense now?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 20:04:04


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


I take it that you're going to ignore my point that you can not taget the GKGM and therefore shrouding does not kick in. In fact the GKGM does not even get hurt unless you want him to get hurt.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 20:05:13


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Nigglesworth wrote:, a unit of GKs and non GKs, which the rules say nothing about.


When you have a unit of Gks and non-gks you still have GKs. The shrouding says nothing about the unit being ONLY GKs, just that there is a Unit of GKs present when being fired at. As you stated, the unit of GKs is present (nothing in the rules states that adding non-gks removes the gk-units title of "Gk Unit") and as such the shrouding still activates

Just like the special rule "Blight Grenades" states that "When a unit of plague marines is assaulted, the assaulting unit does not get its +1 Attack for charging" still applies when a unit of plague marines is joined by a Chaos Sorcerer, as they are still a "unit of plague marines". This rule also applies when Typhus (The Destroyer Hive special rule) is joined by a unit of Chaos Terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:I take it that you're going to ignore my point that you can not taget the GKGM and therefore shrouding does not kick in. In fact the GKGM does not even get hurt unless you want him to get hurt.


No, as you have the choice to place wounds from the shooting unit onto the IC, he is still technically a target (as if you are not a target from a non-template weapon, how can you be hit?)*

*Foot note: While I do not agree with you that you can choose not to place any wounds on the IC if you are hit with more wounds then there are members of a unit joined by an IC, this is not the thread for this side discussion, if you open another thread, I would be happy to argue it with you there, if you have enough supporting evidence of this claim, I really hope you are correct, as it would GREATLY benefit how I play Warhammer 40k (I play hero hammer) and as such, I have been penalized more often then not by having to place wounds on my IC from shooting, when it was joined to another unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 20:22:13


Post by: Nigglesworth


The rule calls for a unit of GKs. Going back to page 49 it says for shooting purposes, they are considered one unit. A unit of GKs, using the English language as my source, is a unit made up of GKs. So a unit with some other non GK part to it means that the unit is not made up solely of GKs. We have a unit of GKs and (or attached to or combined with, whatever you please) a unit of non GKs. RaW, only a unit of GKs gains shrouding. You can't take the first part of the statement "We have a unit of GKs" to jusitfy your claim as that is not the entire unit. The addition of "and a unit of non GKs" is necessary as this now identifies the entire unit. Does a unit of GKs= a unit of GKs attached to some other non GK unit? No, it doesn't. Due to the fact that the two are not equivalent, and the rules define nowhere a unit of GKs combined with a unit of non GKs counting as a unit of GKs, shrouding would not work as this one unit doens't fit the requirement for the power to work.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 20:28:31


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Nigglesworth- That argument has been going on for pages now. The whole argument is moot since by rule the shooter can not shoot at or harm the GK IC. Page 49 says that it is the controlling player's option as to whether the IC suffers any wounds or not. To use DAR's example if he had a GKGM join a unit of 5 tac marines and I shot at it and delivered 10 wounds his GKGM could come out of it unscathed. You can't target the GKGM you can't hurt the GKGM, the shrouding doesn't apply since the GKGM isn't germane to the attack.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 20:32:36


Post by: frgsinwntr


Leo_the_Rat wrote:Nigglesworth- That argument has been going on for pages now. The whole argument is moot since by rule the shooter can not shoot at or harm the GK IC. Page 49 says that it is the controlling player's option as to whether the IC suffers any wounds or not. To use DAR's example if he had a GKGM join a unit of 5 tac marines and I shot at it and delivered 10 wounds his GKGM could come out of it unscathed. You can't target the GKGM you can't hurt the GKGM, the shrouding doesn't apply since the GKGM isn't germane to the attack.


I dissagree... its moot since the shrouding really doesn't offer ANY protection... and the codex comes out in january....


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 20:44:54


Post by: calypso2ts


He is trying to claim that when a unit with an IC is targetted for shooting, you actually target both the IC and the unit since targetting the aggregate whole requires targeting the individual parts (which is bunk).

I have a PhD in Mechanical Engineering, which is equally as useless towards this debate as your minor in Law.

You clearly have no idea what a permissive rule set is. Every rule in 40k is a permissive rule that allows you permission to perform an action (or specifically revokes permission). That said - the default answer to anything not addressed by the rules is therefore no - you need PERMISSION to do it which does not need to use the word permitted...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 20:48:38


Post by: jy2


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Just like the special rule "Blight Grenades" states that "When a unit of plague marines is assaulted, the assaulting unit does not get its +1 Attack for charging" still applies when a unit of plague marines is joined by a Chaos Sorcerer, as they are still a "unit of plague marines". This rule also applies when Typhus (The Destroyer Hive special rule) is joined by a unit of Chaos Terminators.


Ah, they don't get the +1A only if they are charge the plaguemarines. Any model that assaults the Sorcerer still gets their +1A. But this is more similar to an non-GK IC joining a unit of grey knights than a GKGM joining a unit of non-grey knights.

Typhus + chaos terminators is a more appropriate comparison as Typhus has a special rule (blight grenades) whereas the terminators don't. However, in this case, only models assaulting Typhus lose their +1A bonus for charging. Those striking the terminators still get their charge bonuses.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 21:46:41


Post by: Kapitalist-Pig


Okay my turn to chime in. I have read the pages and reserved comment until now.

DAR seems to be saying that a part of the unit that is being targeted is GK, and since a part of the unit is GK that shrouding works. IIRC the shrouding rule has been posted here multiple times. The shrouding rule says that "each time an enemy fires at (A) unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them."

So at what point do GK units stop being GK units? and can you site a page refference for us all.

If you are shooting at a unit with multiple unit types when do those types cease to be important enough to count as being shot at?

I think the real problem here is how everyone is reading -(A) unit of Grey Knights-. Really if you think about it you are shooting at a unit of GK. It might not be only a unit of GK, but you are still shooting at a unit of GK because there are GK unit/s attached, joined, a part of, or combined with another unit.


I am not siding with anyone but that seems to be the catching points for anyone/everyone who is disagreeing. I hope that I have made it a little more clear for both sides! If not oh well I will check in later!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/26 22:01:52


Post by: nosferatu1001


Actually it requires that you target.

Target has a very specific usage within the BRB. One that DAR consistently ignores.

DAR wrote:
A combined unit = two or more units, they have rules for firing at combined units, they have rules for targetting two units with shooting. Also, there ARE PLENTY of codex specific rules for targeting more then one unit with shooting. I don't need to bring those up however, as the BRB already supports my stand, and I have provided the evidence of such, you have yet shown any such evidence for you claims, you just claim there are pieces of the rules (which I have shown) that support your claims based on your own definitions of words in the English language.


So you believe, truly and honestly, that when the rulebook specifies each unit targets A SINGLE enemy unit, they really meant two?

And that they therefore give permission to target multiple units wfrom the same firing unit? Really, THAT is your argument?

Wow. Just wow. Such utter bunk. IF your version of the rules is true then the Long Fangs special rule is redundant - you can do it anyway! So is target lock (or whatever the tau split fire item is) and the special rule for super heavies that states that, UNLIKE OTHER TANKS, THEY can split fire with their weapons?

Wow. Seriously - thanks for enlightning us as to how this game works - we have ALL been wrong for so long! Here we were, thinking that when it states you target ONE unit they meant just that - but in fact you can target more! That makes my missile launchers so much more useful, the misile can shoot tanks and the bolters infantry.

Or, and heres the more likely part. You have just shot yourself not only in the foot, but in the leg, stomach and chest as well. See those flames? That's your argument.

Oh, and why bring societal laws into this? You do realise that most GAME RULESETS (note: not real life. Seriously, try not to equate the two) are permissive sets? they tell you waht actions you MAY perform. Otherwise - my terminators may move 24" per turn. Nothing tells me I cannot do so - which is what you are arguing. Apparently your minor in law is really minor if you cant work out the difference between can and cannot....

RAW: Shrouding offers NO protection when targetting a combined unit not entirely composed of GKs, as the comined unit is NOT a GK Unit. You cannot target a Unit within the COmbined unit as you do not have the special rules, in general, to do so - you need to be a Vindicaire or Tellion to do that.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 07:31:47


Post by: DevianID


Independant Characters and Shooting: (Caps for emphasis)
'Independant Characters that have joined a unit are considered PART OF THAT UNIT and so may not be picked out as targets'

If a GK IC is joined to, say, a Blood Angel unit, then for shooting at least they are considered part of the Blood Angel unit. To me, this reads that they are not part of the Grey Knight unit when being shot at, as you only declare 1 unit to shoot at. Different phases of the game handle this issue VERY differently, however. But, since shrouding works when being shot at, and when being shot at the Grey Knight IC transforms into another unit per the rule quoted, he does infact not get shrouding.

So conclusion: I shoot at the GK IC unit attached to the BA unit. When getting shot at, the GK IC unit is now considered part of the BA unit. Thus, I am shooting at a BA unit, and never shooting at a GK unit, as the former GK unit just became a BA unit. Immediately after shooting, the GK IC is no longer counted as a BA unit, only a GK IC unit attached to a BA unit.

Addendum: if a GK IC attached to another IC, then you could say that it is the other IC that is attaching to the GK. In that case, the other IC would be considered part of the GK IC unit for shooting, thus you would be shooting at a GK unit, and only a GK unit. So while GK IC plus Assault squad is no shrouding, GK IC plus Lysander IS shrouding.

Ren I really liked following your logic, but I think my rule quoted above provides the 1 logic issue you can not resolve, as it is an absolute fact you are a single unit when being shot at, and the GK counts as that unit, not his own unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 11:21:36


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Its 6am, I've been up all night playing 40k and Borderlands and contrary to my title, I do need sleep now and then. Consider this post a place holder for tomorrow morning, when I will address some of the "new" (Nothings really new besides Devians post) concerns.

Also one more thing before I pass out, if you believe a degree in Mechanical engineering is equally applicable to a rules discussion as a degree in Law (remember, laws are the "Rules" of society, thus me being able to say "Lol, you use big law words like 'Permissive Ruleset', without knowing in the slightest what they mean" cause guess what, the definition you are using is WRONG, it would be like me saying the filament of a light-bulb is the outer layer of glass, as an electrical engineer you should know more about the intricacies of a light-bulb/electrical engineering, as you have studied it, as I actually STUDY law and contracts and specific wording (such as this example) then you can hopefully understand how my specific area of study is not "Useless" in this field...

Why do you think we are called "Rules Lawyers"?

Anywho

~To be continued~


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 16:02:19


Post by: nosferatu1001


Still doesnt alter that you arent aware of how the rules for this GAME are written, or the 2 main ways rules are written for games. Which is all that matters.

Your "reading' of the rules requires taht all units are able to target 2 units. Which is wrong. So your argument, and your conclusion, is wrong.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 16:18:18


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:I take it that you're going to ignore my point that you can not taget the GKGM and therefore shrouding does not kick in. In fact the GKGM does not even get hurt unless you want him to get hurt.


No, as you have the choice to place wounds from the shooting unit onto the IC, he is still technically a target (as if you are not a target from a non-template weapon, how can you be hit?)


Maybe your terminology is wrong or I am just unclear about it. Are you saying that because you, the controller of the unit being shot at, can opt to wound the GK that I the shooter have to undertake the shrouding test even if I am not shooting at the GK? At that point you must also claim that if a template drifts over the GK that shrouding take effect. Neither of these situations is within the perview of the shooting player and as such neither penalty applies.
As you should know from your minor of Law can is very different from must. Just because you can do something does not negate the hazards of doing so. For example if I tell you, you may (can) wrestle a polar bear and you do so the resulting liability is on your head. If, however, I say that you must wrestle a polar bear then the liability rests on me.
BTW I have a Doctorate in Law does that make my interpretation/reading of the rules automatically better than yours? Of course not, so why bring it up in the first place?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 16:27:41


Post by: Monster Rain


Leo_the_Rat wrote:Are you saying that because you, the controller of the unit being shot at, can opt to wound the GK that I the shooter have to undertake the shrouding test even if I am not shooting at the GK? At that point you must also claim that if a template drifts over the GK that shrouding take effect.


If the GK can take wounds from your shooting, you are targeting them and they get their shrouding roll.

Of course, that's not the case with the scattering blast marker because the GKs weren't the original target.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 16:33:51


Post by: calypso2ts


But the GK CAN take wounds from the blast (based on your criteria for shrouding above) so it would apply?

Cool in that case I am not intending to wound the GK models, I intend only to hurt the squad..?

Laws of Nature, Laws of Man, Murphy's Laws...a degree in any of these is equally as applicable because none of them are GW Rules (laws) degrees


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 16:34:47


Post by: Monster Rain


calypso2ts wrote:But the GK CAN take wounds from the blast (based on your criteria for shrouding above) so it would apply?


You didn't read the post, did you? Or if I was unclear, my apologies.

The GKs weren't targeted, so no shrouding.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 16:49:42


Post by: calypso2ts


Sorry but your reply says 'If the GK CAN take wounds form your shooting, you are targeting them' which is patently a false statement.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 16:52:22


Post by: Monster Rain


calypso2ts wrote:Sorry but your reply says 'If the GK CAN take wounds form your shooting, you are targeting them' which is patently a false statement.


Monster Rain wrote:Of course, that's not the case with the scattering blast marker because the GKs weren't the original target.


Read the thread, brohemoth.

Is that the post you are referring to?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 16:57:41


Post by: calypso2ts


The logical equivalent to your statement - p->q is ~q->~p
(simplified slightly there is an and in there but makes no difference)

That would be "If you are not targeting them, they cannot take wounds ."

This is clearly a false statement - see the blast markers. The only way for it to be true is if they did not take wounds from blasts, OR they were targeted by the blasts (and get shrouding).

Therefore, it is an inherently false logical argument for why shrouding would apply, ie the idea that they can take wounds and are therefore a target and as such are shrouded.

That is the long version of the argument, I was trying to be a bit more succinct with it.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 17:08:02


Post by: Monster Rain


calypso2ts wrote:The logical equivalent to your statement - p->q is ~q->~p
(simplified slightly there is an and in there but makes no difference)

That would be "If you are not targeting them, they cannot take wounds ."

This is clearly a false statement - see the blast markers. The only way for it to be true is if they did not take wounds from blasts, OR they were targeted by the blasts (and get shrouding).

Therefore, it is an inherently false logical argument for why shrouding would apply, ie the idea that they can take wounds and are therefore a target and as such are shrouded.

That is the long version of the argument, I was trying to be a bit more succinct with it.


Thanks for that, Aristotle.

Re-read the section on firing blast weapons and get back to me. The issue is targeting, not the ability to take wounds. It's two separate issues.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 17:19:21


Post by: nosferatu1001


MR - and yet the GKGM is never the TARGET.

The combined unit is the target. The one and ONLY target I can declare

So no shrouding. OR you are advocating that all units can target multiple units?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 17:21:56


Post by: Monster Rain


Here, let me point thos out again:

The GKs don't benefit from The Shouting from scattering blast markers, for the reason that nos just gave. The same way you wouldn't have to roll nightfight if your marker scattered onto another unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 17:25:36


Post by: nosferatu1001


A GKGM in a unit of non-GK also doesnt benefit from Shrouding regardless, as he isnt being targetted.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 17:29:13


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:A GKGM in a unit of non-GK also doesnt benefit from Shrouding regardless, as he isnt being targetted.


That's debatable. The real answer is that you should discuss it with your opponents IRL and house rule it, but it's much more fun to go around and around in increasingly angry tones, n'cest pas?

The other bit about scattering blast markers I thought would be standard information.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 17:48:38


Post by: calypso2ts


I am not the one who is making claims about the ability to wound a model being a good criteria to determine if the unit was targeted. Here is your post...

MonsterRain wrote:
If the GK can take wounds from your shooting, you are targeting them and they get their shrouding roll.


I was, instead, showing why the statement you made is completely incorrect. Maybe you need to brush up on the blast rules, which formed the basis for why this statement is garbage.

I agree if you want to play it so shrouding works on the joined unit, you need to house rule it.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 17:49:47


Post by: Monster Rain


calypso2ts wrote:I am not the one who is making claims about the ability to wound a model being a good criteria to determine if the unit was targeted. Here is your post...

MonsterRain wrote:
If the GK can take wounds from your shooting, you are targeting them and they get their shrouding roll.


I was, instead, showing why the statement you made is completely incorrect. Maybe you need to brush up on the blast rules, which formed the basis for why this statement is garbage.

I agree if you want to play it so shrouding works on the joined unit, you need to house rule it.


It helps if you quote the whole post.

Monster Rain wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:Are you saying that because you, the controller of the unit being shot at, can opt to wound the GK that I the shooter have to undertake the shrouding test even if I am not shooting at the GK? At that point you must also claim that if a template drifts over the GK that shrouding take effect.


If the GK can take wounds from your shooting, you are targeting them and they get their shrouding roll.

Of course, that's not the case with the scattering blast marker because the GKs weren't the original target.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:14:28


Post by: nosferatu1001


Monster Rain wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:A GKGM in a unit of non-GK also doesnt benefit from Shrouding regardless, as he isnt being targetted.


That's debatable. The real answer is that you should discuss it with your opponents IRL and house rule it, but it's much more fun to go around and around in increasingly angry tones, n'cest pas?

The other bit about scattering blast markers I thought would be standard information.


IT really isnt debateable. Unless you belive that when they say the IC is "part of" the unit and you are tehrefore targetting the combined unit, and NOT the GKGM, isnt true.

IT requires not following the rules, or pretending that the rules allow you to target more than 1 unit with a standard units firing. Which is it you believe again? You never did answer the question.

After your "boom" comments earlier i would have thought you would have been eager to have a definitive answer. Or is it because it you have realised the rules REALLY dont support your argument that you have now decided it is "unclear"?

Classic MR.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:22:31


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:Or is it because it you have realised the rules REALLY dont support your argument that you have now decided to start with personal attacks?


Ah, YMDC. Why so serious? Fix'd that for you by the way.

I'm not going to argue with you and your leaps of logic. DAR showed pictures of the rules and you persist with the semantic distortion. Oh well. I think there's an argument for DAR and Darth Bob's way of thinking based on RAW, and you disagree, countering with irrelevant logical arguments. Since neither side seems to want to give, I say house rule it. I don't think it's unclear, and frankly your arguments don't make any sense to me but since you seem to believe them to the point of actually being angry about it I'm willing to compromise.

A mistake on the internet, I know. I guess I'm just an optimist to a fault.



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:36:53


Post by: nosferatu1001


So you admit you were making personal attacks? Brilliant!

DAR showed pictures of rules that dont support his argument. They actually contradicted his argument, as was shown by everyone.

His argument relies on the FLAWED idea that you can target more than one unit at a time with a single unit. This is not supported, anywhere, in the rules.

This isnt debateable. This isnt in doubt. It actually requires ignoring rules (and making Long Fangs, Super Heavies, Tau Target Lock et al special rules redundant in the process) in order to make up an idea that you are targetting >1 unit.

So, do you believe that you can target more than one unit with a single unit, or do you support the rules as written?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:39:56


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:So, do you believe that you can target more than one unit with a single unit, or do you support the rules as written?


That's a false dichotomy based on bad logic.

Sorry brohemoth. I'm not playing this game. I've said all I have to say on the matter, unsubscribing from thread now. Good night, and have a pleasant tomorrow.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:40:30


Post by: Gorkamorka


Monster Rain wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:So, do you believe that you can target more than one unit with a single unit, or do you support the rules as written?


That's a false dichotomy based on bad logic.

No, no it isn't.

If you are targeting a combined unit, you are targeting a combined unit. Not two component units.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:43:33


Post by: Monster Rain


Gorkamorka wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:So, do you believe that you can target more than one unit with a single unit, or do you support the rules as written?


That's a false dichotomy based on bad logic.

No, no it isn't.

If you are targeting a combined unit, you are targeting a combined unit. Not two component units.


Wow, you're fast.

Right. I don't know how that premise even came up based on the arguments presented earlier in the thread. The IC is considered as being part of the unit. Why would it be two units again?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:45:52


Post by: nosferatu1001


Monster Rain wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:So, do you believe that you can target more than one unit with a single unit, or do you support the rules as written?


That's a false dichotomy based on bad logic.

Sorry brohemoth. I'm not playing this game. I've said all I have to say on the matter, unsubscribing from thread now. Good night, and have a pleasant tomorrow.


Bzzzt, wrong.

WHen you target {GKGM+non-GK} are you targetting one unit or two? If you are targetting 2 units explain how you are fulfilling the permission to only target 1 unit.

Is the game you're not playing the "oh damn, I've been caught making silly "threads over!" comments on previous pages and now that argument has been shown to be bunk, better run and pretend it isnt blindingly clear" game?

Classic MR, classic.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:51:25


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:So, do you believe that you can target more than one unit with a single unit, or do you support the rules as written?


That's a false dichotomy based on bad logic.

Sorry brohemoth. I'm not playing this game. I've said all I have to say on the matter, unsubscribing from thread now. Good night, and have a pleasant tomorrow.


Bzzzt, wrong.

WHen you target {GKGM+non-GK} are you targetting one unit or two? If you are targetting 2 units explain how you are fulfilling the permission to only target 1 unit.

Is the game you're not playing the "oh damn, I've been caught making silly "threads over!" comments on previous pages and now that argument has been shown to be bunk, better run and pretend it isnt blindingly clear" game?

Classic MR, classic.


I think the case is clear. You don't. I'm not going to let you put me on the defensive, dude. "House Rule It" is my standard answer for when the navel-gazing gets too silly.

Big deal?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 22:59:55


Post by: nosferatu1001


The case IS clear. You can only target one unit, and that unit isnt a GK Unit. No Shrouding apples

So what is clear for you? THat you are targetting multiple units? If so where is you permission to do so?

Simple, yes no question for you: do you vbelieve you can target multiple units with a single units firing?

Yes or No. [its like that damn hammer again, isnt it.]


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 23:03:24


Post by: kirsanth


nosferatu1001 wrote:[its like that damn hammer again, isnt it.]
LOL, that is a good image, though, isn't it?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 23:07:10


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:The case IS clear. You can only target one unit, and that unit isnt a GK Unit. No Shrouding apples

So what is clear for you? THat you are targetting multiple units? If so where is you permission to do so?

Simple, yes no question for you: do you vbelieve you can target multiple units with a single units firing?

Yes or No. [its like that damn hammer again, isnt it.]


Those aren't the only options so there's no point in answering the question.

Shooting at a unit that contains an IC isn't shooting at two units, it's shooting at a combined unit with different attributes given by different models that comprise it.

Hammer?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 23:11:01


Post by: kirsanth


Monster Rain wrote:Hammer?

This hammer, I believe--from the "Is it on the table?" threads.



Gwar! took the text off and uses just the image, but yea; I found it in relation to our QA department so I think the bug report part is funny too.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 23:13:36


Post by: Monster Rain


kirsanth wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:Hammer?

This hammer, I believe--from the "Is it on the table?" threads.



Gwar! took the text off and uses just the image, but yea; I found it in relation to our QA department so I think the bug report part is funny too.


Ha! Yeah, I see what you mean.

That's funny! Funny... or witchcraft. I'm not quite sure.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 23:20:27


Post by: nosferatu1001


Monster Rain wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:The case IS clear. You can only target one unit, and that unit isnt a GK Unit. No Shrouding apples

So what is clear for you? THat you are targetting multiple units? If so where is you permission to do so?

Simple, yes no question for you: do you vbelieve you can target multiple units with a single units firing?

Yes or No. [its like that damn hammer again, isnt it.]


Those aren't the only options so there's no point in answering the question.

Shooting at a unit that contains an IC isn't shooting at two units, it's shooting at a combined unit with different attributes given by different models that comprise it.

Hammer?


Bzzzt, wrong again.

The criteria for Shrouding to activate at all is that you are TARGETTING a UNIT of GKs.

The ONLY thing that matters is: are you targetting a unit of GK? If yes! you get to carry on and find out what Shrouding does.

So, please - answer the question, with a simple yes or no. Do you belive you can target multiple units with a single units firing? Yes or No.

Not difficult.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/27 23:25:55


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:The case IS clear. You can only target one unit, and that unit isnt a GK Unit. No Shrouding apples

So what is clear for you? THat you are targetting multiple units? If so where is you permission to do so?

Simple, yes no question for you: do you vbelieve you can target multiple units with a single units firing?

Yes or No. [its like that damn hammer again, isnt it.]


Those aren't the only options so there's no point in answering the question.

Shooting at a unit that contains an IC isn't shooting at two units, it's shooting at a combined unit with different attributes given by different models that comprise it.

Hammer?


Bzzzt, wrong again.

The criteria for Shrouding to activate at all is that you are TARGETTING a UNIT of GKs.


We've been over this, man.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 05:58:52


Post by: DevianID


At the end of page 6 I pointed out that you are not shooting at a unit of grey knights, NOR are you shooting at a combined unit. When shot at, the GK IC becomes a member of the unit he is attached to.

Thus, if attached to a blood angel assault squad, the GK IC is a part of the blood angel unit. He is not a GK unit within a BA unit. You are not even targeting or having an effect on a grey knight unit, only a BA unit.

After the shooting phase, the GK IC behaves differently obviously, like being a different unit in CC in the assault phase. But for shooting, there is only 1 unit, and it is not a grey knight unit, nor is it a combined/amalgamated unit, it is whatever unit the IC is attached to.

As an aside, if you had a unit of ICs, you would be able to say the other ICs are joining the GK IC unit. Thus, if you have a GKGM with a BA apothicary, a BA elite chappy, and Master Seth, all 3 BA ICs would be able to join the GK IC unit, thus when shot at would count as a single unit of grey knights. OR, the GKGM could instead join them to count as a single BA unit.

Hope this helps the discussion


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 07:33:08


Post by: nosferatu1001


Wait, do you have an answer then MR? Oh, wait, you dont.

Classic.

WHat was the first line of shroudings rule? Targetting a unit of GK. Where is the unit of GK? It doesnt exist while the GKGM is joined to a non-GK unit.

Unless you think you can target more than one unit? Care to answer the oh so simple question now?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 12:35:40


Post by: calypso2ts


DevianID wrote:
Thus, if attached to a blood angel assault squad, the GK IC is a part of the blood angel unit. He is not a GK unit within a BA unit. You are not even targeting or having an effect on a grey knight unit, only a BA unit.


This.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 13:59:01


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Its 6am, I've been up all night playing 40k and Borderlands and contrary to my title, I do need sleep now and then. Consider this post a place holder for tomorrow morning, when I will address some of the "new" (Nothings really new besides Devians post) concerns.

~To be continued~


I had forgotten that since I rarely do sleep, when I do, I am out for typically, more then 24 hours.

But fear not, for I HAVE AWOKEN.

Time to kill this argument ONCE AND FOR ALL!

My Argument: When a unit joins another unit, it does not forfeit its original status as a "Unit of X" in favor for "A Combined Unit" where X is no longer present.

The counter would obviously be "When a unit joins another unit, it becomes a Combined Unit, therefor, it is no longer a Unit of X whenever such is called for by either the main rule book or codex specific examples (The primary(s) of this thread being The Shrouding (and Aegis)

Reasons why the Counter is invalid:

To assume that the counter would be correct would in theory, retract a MONUMENTAL listing of rulings, which (while most likely not the intent of those countering) would SIGNIFICANTLY alter the value of those special rules, and the codexes in which they come from, for the worse. This is, in its entierty, a form of illegal speach known commonly as Libel, and if the owner of the publications being "diminished" by this interpretation were to notice and sort of loss in services based on this Libel, such owners would be wholly and entirely capable of pursuing legal compensation by the proponents of the hurtful speach towards their product...

Now, you might be reading this and wondering "Well How is my argument Libel, mr DAR?"

Let me show you!

The claims have been made that when a unit of Grey knights (as defined by page 20 of C: DH) joins or is joined by another unit, they are no longer a "Unit of Grey knights" (as defined by page 20 of C: DH) as the 'permissive rules' only permit the unit to hold such a label if they are "A Unit of Grey Knights" not "A Unit of Grey KNights AND a unit of Non-Grey Knights". This provision however, MUST ALSO APPLY to any such alteration of "A Unit of Grey Knights" including "A unit of Grey KNights AND a Unit of Grey Knights" (As the specific definition is not allowed in the C: DH and in permissive rules, if you are not told you can do something, then you CANNOT do it
Spoiler:
If the rules don’t tell players they can do something, players can’t do it. -The Permissive Ruleset Cannon
" This however would also invalidate such entries as "A Unit of Space Wolves"(for abilities such as "Bjorn the Fel Handed, and Logan Grimnar" etc) an "Eldar Unit" (for the purposes of certain Eldar Psychic Powers and special rules) an "Ork Unit" (For the purposes of WAAAAUGH! And other special rules) and "Blood Angels" unit (For the purposes of "Red Thirst" "Decent of angels" and other special rules) as well as many other rulings, not discussed in this thread, but also not explicitly covering "Combined Units". In fact, one MAJOR consideration of a judge in deciding if to fall into the counter-arguments claims is that under a "Permissive Ruleset" and the "Combined Unit, No Meta-unit" arguments, there are no such rules that would permit any such unit in any such codex to be considered a "Friendly Unit" and as such, any/all rules concerning friendly units (especially those that are "Combined Units") would be utterly revoked. To consider a "Combined Unit" for the purposes of targeting, or anything for that matter as no longer a combination of those any of the involved unit groups (assuming you do not refute the previous statements regarding the definition of "Combined Units") as 'not a part of the unit' (so in the case of the shrouding, not eligible for The Shrouding's rule) without proper justification would be unwise, as such a ruling would bring into question again, all of the above negative precedence.

Now, as described in the above, to say that the C: DH rules are weaker then what is actually present on the paper it is printed on (without the consent of the writer or the company which owns the IP) and without proper justification is Libel, so as a warning to all those involved in this debate, if you are contacted by a legal representative of any of the discussed parties, I would advise that you cease any and all illegal activities so that you could best provide yourself a defense if such a 'inconvenient occasion' were to arise. (I would also like to offer my services as a legal council, if the need did arise, feel free to contact me via PM. I will help Dakka members with this kind of issue free of charge!)

((( Thats right, I just owned you you're argument , legally. I AM THE LAW BRINGER! I now also have my sights set on a huge series of 'injustices' in YMDC <Such as the Permissive Ruleset cannon in general> so watch out boyz, here I come!)))

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 14:31:28


Post by: nosferatu1001



{GK+non-GK} == non-GK Unit. Its' really THAT simple. Mathematically, logically and using the english language (which is your friend in this, and you HAVE to use it...) there is no other answer.

Nothing you have shown alters that simple, unutterable fact. Sorry, it really doesnt. Also, for future reference: claim of "you should listen to me because I am "X"" fails horribly in an argument. Appeal to authority fallacy and all that.

Later.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 14:41:11


Post by: calypso2ts


Okay, so if I am to understand correctly your argument in the above post can be summarized as...

The definition of a unit of GK necessarily includes anything joined to or joined by said unit. The reason being other codices use terminology like "a unit of space wolves" or "a unit of blood angels," which implies unlike things grouped together are labeled based on their constituent parts.

Is this summary correct - I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

I think introducing the idea of libel into your argument weakens it significantly, as well as, it being an exceptionally large intellectual stretch.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 15:02:04


Post by: nosferatu1001


It also ignores that DARs argument relies on being able to target two units with one squad. WHich is just wrong.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 15:07:44


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:
{GK+non-GK} == non-GK Unit. Its' really THAT simple. Mathematically, logically and using the english language (which is your friend in this, and you HAVE to use it...) there is no other answer.


Then why did you say "You can't post full definitions of words" when I posted the definition of the word "Joined" (and refuted your claim that the English language supports your argument).

Again, You say that GK + Non-GK = Non-GK. I Say that GK + Non GK = GK AND Non GK so it would still fufill the requirement of being a unit of GK. You have yet to refute this with any actual evidence, all you have done is talked circles about how "logic and the English language supports you" (even when I PROVED the english language DOES NOT SUPPORT YOU).


calypso2ts wrote:
The definition of a unit of GK necessarily includes anything joined to or joined by said unit. The reason being other codices use terminology like "a unit of space wolves" or "a unit of blood angels," which implies unlike things grouped together are labeled based on their constituent parts.

Is this summary correct - I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.


Yes and No.

Yes in that a Unit of grey knights would still be a unit of grey knights regardless of those which join it, much like how a unit of space wolves is still a unit of space wolves even if it would be joined by say, a unit of grey knights. The combined unit would then become: "A unit of Grey Knight and a Unit of space wolves, combined" While the wording on "The Shrouding" does not have any specific wording on what to do in the case of a combined unit, I am arguing that the logically course of action is to "go with what is written" in that the condition requests a "Unit of Grey Knights" and the condition cares not what else is joined to that unit. Much like, the unit of space wolves would gain "furious Charge" from ragnar blackmane's "War Howl" ability regardless of what is joined with them, and that a unit of plague-marines denies the bonus attacks for charging to any enemy units which assault them, regardless if they are joined by any "Units of non-plague marines" (For instance, a Chaos sorcerer of Tzeentch, who in no way is a unit of plague marines). Remember, the rules for ICs and assaults do not take place until the "Defenders react" step where in the "Blight Grenades" special rule applies at the "Move assaulting units" as the first step of the assault phase is when units are declared.

So in the exact way that the blight grenades special rule is applied, the shrouding special rule would be applied to a combined unit which contains the grey knight special rule (and as such, is a "Unit of grey knights being targeted by an enemy unit" )

Does that at least help?

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 15:11:38


Post by: calypso2ts


Okay, that is a more succinct description of your argument than in the previous posts. I certainly disagree for the previous reasons stated.

However, I think this discussion has run its course and both sides are clear in their thinking.

I think the problem with the definition you posted DAR may have been it was a complete dictionary definition, which is frowned upon by the forum rules, whereas referencing the meaning of a word itself is okay provided it is not cut and pasted into the post.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 15:14:15


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:It also ignores that DARs argument relies on being able to target two units with one squad. WHich is just wrong.


The argument is if: Targeting a combined unit constitutes targeting the multiple sub-sets which the unit contains.

Which, even if you are correct in this matter, what would you propose would happen if a GKGM joined/is joined by a Rune Priest which joins/is joined by a WGBL? As you have three ICs, which IC is "Considered part of" which's unit. Who is able to decide? And if you are able to decide, why does a GK squad lose its shrouding when joined by an Inquisitor (Or even WGBL) as the character is supposed to be considered "Part of the unit" Of Grey Knights?




Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 15:19:39


Post by: kirsanth


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:what would you propose would happen if a GKGM joined/is joined by a Rune Priest which joins/is joined by a WGBL?
I would consider that a unit of ICs, not a unit of GK, unit of SW, or anysuch. It is a unit containing SW and GK.

/shrug


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 15:25:40


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote:Okay, that is a more succinct description of your argument than in the previous posts. I certainly disagree for the previous reasons stated.


What?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
So rules which apply to individual groupings, would apply to each... so If I am a Long Fang wanting to fire krack Missiles at a unit of Sanguinary Gaurd with a GK:Hero and a Sanguinary Priest. Because I am firing at a Unit of Grey Knights (as one of the units in the "Multi-Character unit") I must roll for the Shrouding.


Was the original description of the argument. The only reason I went so far in depth (and if you wish to refer to evidence backing up a claim as "wasted words" so be it) was BECAUSE YOU (among others) were not satisfied with that response. (I think I also brought up the Typhus example on page 2)

To allow this discussion to "Run its course" places a whole slew of rulings (which I mentioned briefly earlier) into question, which is unfair to the community as a whole, which is also why (while I agree it was a civil and reasonable request) I denied to simply leave it a "Judgement call".

I'm sorry, but as much as I would rather be doing other things (which I would, and I entirely respect your desire to do the same) I do feel we at least owe it to the OP to answer his question fully, or not answer it at all, if not, all we have done is cast unnecessary doubt to someone. As I stated before, if I am wrong, I would be happy to be proven wrong (You learn more in debate by being incorrect, then by being correct) but unfortunately, as I have stated, to accept this ruling, and the logic behind it, would open up a pandora's box of terrible rulings that would just about make it entirely wasteful to ever consider even taking "combined units" (With the exception of the "ICs not ever having to take wounds when being fired at" as I already stated, I disagree with this statement, but NOTHING would make me HAPPIER then to be wrong about it, and keep my ICs safe by placing them in 5-man suicide squads to prevent them from being shot at.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kirsanth wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:what would you propose would happen if a GKGM joined/is joined by a Rune Priest which joins/is joined by a WGBL?
I would consider that a unit of ICs, not a unit of GK, unit of SW, or anysuch. It is a unit containing SW and GK.


The statement that was made by Nos earlier implied that for shooting, you only have ONE unit, and that the character(s) are considered part of that ONE unit in the shooting phase, if you were to "Consider" the SWs/Non-GKs as "Part of the Unit of GKs" then by the same argument that is being made about why a GK-Unit loses its status of "GK-Unit" could/should be applied to the GK changing the SWs/non-GKs units status to GK-UNit (as they are considered part of the unit of GKs). It is merely a question that would assume that Nos' definition be used.

The counter I have previously provided to your "Unit Containing SW and GK" is that nothing in the rules suggests that a Unit Containing GKs/Non-GKs would dismiss the definition of a "Unit of Grey Knights" as described on page 20 of C: DH (which is what is triggering "The Shrouding".)

However, your introduction of the concept of "A unit of ICs" is interesting, care to provide any backing for such a claim? (Remember, the BRB describes ICs as "Units in their own right".)

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 15:54:34


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:Wait, do you have an answer then MR? Oh, wait, you dont.


An answer that's been stated ad nauseum in this very thread? Why should I bother? I've stated my position, you disagree. Whatever. I have better things to do that bang my head against a wall, which is what arguing with you feels like.

Calm down, kid.

It's not shooting at two units, so your question is, if you'll forgive the term, pointless.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 16:26:41


Post by: nosferatu1001


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Again, You say that GK + Non-GK = Non-GK. I Say that GK + Non GK = GK AND Non GK so it would still fufill the requirement of being a unit of GK. You have yet to refute this with any actual evidence, all you have done is talked circles about how "logic and the English language supports you" (even when I PROVED the english language DOES NOT SUPPORT YOU).


And the rulebook.

1) You clearly dont understand the different between target and affect. Target is a specific used term int he rulebook. Hint: look in the shooting section for how the term is used. Done that yet?
2) The IC Is PART OF the unit. Part of /= separate (odd that!) so there IS only one unit you can target. The combined unit.
3) You can only target one unit. (have you found that rule yet?) That one unit is NOT a GK unit. No Shrouding as Shrouding REQUIRES you to TARGET a GK UNIT. You cannot Target a GK Unit - the models for a GK unit are there, but you are targetting the group. The group, or "UNIT", is not a GK Unit. How many ways can this be explained to mr law minor?

I'm not the one posting irrelevant rulebook scans, attempting to pretend that ALL units are given permission to target multiple units (theyre really not, and you have become oddly silent on this since being called on it) and claiming that shooting == targetting. WHen it really isnt.

You have also not proven anything about the English language. How many bananas does it take for a barrel of apples to stop being a barrel of apples again? One? Ten? 20?

As soon as 1 non-GK element is introduced to a GK unit that unit is no longer a GK unit. It contains GK models, and if you separated them you would get a GK unit again, but while combined they are NOT a GK unit. It couldnt be simpler, but apparently it could be....

MR - good to see you are unable to answer even simple questions. I thought you had unsubscribed? Love the "kid" comment, attempting to belittle again, how like your "style".


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 16:48:58


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:MR - good to see you are unable to answer even simple questions. I thought you had unsubscribed? Love the "kid" comment, attempting to belittle again, how like your "style".


Meh. Changed my mind when I started talking to people other than you. Is that not allowed?

"Kid" is general term for friend or bro or whatever in New England. Didn't mean to belittle. Also, I'm perfectly able to answer questions when I find them to be worth answering.

You'd be targeting a Unit that contains a Unit of GKs. Show me in the rules where that isn't the case.

Don't start waxing philosophical about is, and don't start listing equations(seems close to a Real Life Example to me, but what evs) just show me in the rules where that isn't the case and I'll drop it. Or you could drop it and we can move on with our lives. Here's hoping.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 17:04:00


Post by: kirsanth


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:However, your introduction of the concept of "A unit of ICs" is interesting, care to provide any backing for such a claim? (Remember, the BRB describes ICs as "Units in their own right".)
I was referencing page 48, first paragraph, last sentence: "form a powerful multi-character unit!"


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 17:10:30


Post by: Gwar!


kirsanth wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:However, your introduction of the concept of "A unit of ICs" is interesting, care to provide any backing for such a claim? (Remember, the BRB describes ICs as "Units in their own right".)
I was referencing page 48, first paragraph, last sentence: "form a powerful multi-character unit!"


Sorry, it just seemed appropriate.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 17:11:34


Post by: Monster Rain


Gwar! wrote:
kirsanth wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:However, your introduction of the concept of "A unit of ICs" is interesting, care to provide any backing for such a claim? (Remember, the BRB describes ICs as "Units in their own right".)
I was referencing page 48, first paragraph, last sentence: "form a powerful multi-character unit!"


Sorry, it just seemed appropriate.


It's always appropriate.

That picture wins the internet.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 17:17:16


Post by: notabot187


All I know if somebody wanted to tell me that I can't shoot at his unit of whatevers with GK hero attached without testing, I would ask him to please explain why, and why I should continue to play him.

It is fairly clear in my book that a squad is being shot at is NOT a GK unit. The GK character might be attached to it, but the squad itself is not a GK squad. Maybe if I was shooting a vindicare or other single model effect I would say, ok, I won't argue. But against the unit? I would just exercise my right to not play. I can get plenty of other games in without dealing with this crap.

That being said, why would you even put a GK hero in a squad to begin with? To exploit a shoddy rules wording and shady rule interpretation? Not exactly sporting, even in a competitive no comp setting. First action would to appeal to judge, if ruling was against me I would resign from an event with such bad rules support. Congrats, you just won a game by default, and -1 player who will be there next year.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 17:19:20


Post by: Monster Rain


notabot187 wrote:That being said, why would you even put a GK hero in a squad to begin with?


I wouldn't. A GK hero is much better off being in a unit of GK Terminators, putting foot to ass. At the range that the Shrouding is even useful, which is far, you have a very under-utilized and expensive model.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 17:42:57


Post by: nosferatu1001


MR - "The IC is PART OF the unit"

I am targetting the unit, not the IC. I in fact am entirely unable to target the ICs unit, as he is "part of" the unit and thus ineligble for targetting as there is no way to target a component of a unit, unless you have a special rule that says otherwise.

Gonna change your mind now?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 17:52:31


Post by: Monster Rain


nosferatu1001 wrote:MR - "The IC is PART OF the unit"

I am targetting the unit, not the IC. I in fact am entirely unable to target the ICs unit, as he is "part of" the unit and thus ineligble for targetting as there is no way to target a component of a unit, unless you have a special rule that says otherwise.

Gonna change your mind now?


I'll mull it over.

I don't know if the distinction between "targeting" and "affecting" is as clear as you'd make it considering the abstract nature of GW rules, but you make a fair point. I think DAR made a lot of good points as well though.

Thank Providence that this new codex is coming out soon is all I can say for sure.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 17:59:22


Post by: hamsterwheel


Just my 2 cents.

Lets assume that a GK Hero + a unit of something other than GKs is a "unit of GK + other unit". Wouldn't that argument make the GK Hero an IC with a special rule?

With that in mind, we reference page 48 of the BRB which states "Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases though, the independent character or the unit may lose their special rules as a result of the character joing the unit.

The BRB may also provide some headway on whether the argument that a GK Hero joined to something other than a GK is still a "unit of GK".

Page 3 of the BRB
UNITS
"Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections, or similarly named groups - individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units."

"A unit will usually considt of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or power model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow, all of these things are referred to as 'units'."

Page 48 of the BRB
"While an independent character is part of a unit,....

This information along with an understanding of the English language should point out the fact that a GK Hero is only a unit when he is a "lone hero". When he joins another unit, he's a part of a unit, not two units joined together.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 18:57:35


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


kirsanth wrote: "form a powerful multi-character unit!"


So then you agree that a combined unit is multiple units then?

As page 48 describes the concept of a "Multi-Character" unit, and page 47 states that ICs are Units in their own right, therefore a "Multi-Character unit" (Or, Unit of ICs, as you put it) is actually a "Multi-Unit Unit" As it is a "Multi-unit unit" it would be rational to believe that a "Multi-Unit Unit" of Grey Knights and Non Grey Knights is still both a Unit of Grey knights AND a unit of Non grey knights.

I REALLY HATE this example, but I feel it is necessary in order to show exactally what is being discussed here (in direct reference to the GK thing)

Bob is a GK

because he is a GK, he prays a lot

His prayers make his enemies get angry when they try to shoot them, so it makes him harder to hit.

Bob joins Bill (a Space wolf).

If Bob and Bill are targets of shooting, bob is still a target, so there is still a chance his enemies will be too upset from his praying to be able to shoot him. And as they are too upset to shoot him, they are too upset to shoot (because of his prayers)

Nothing in the rulebook suggest the above is not true, in fact quite the contrary.

Now, since I hate fluff examples, let me put this into more "rule friendly" wording,

A GKGM as a model, has a special rule that makes him harder to target.

As you have used the permissive rule cannon to discuss why "The Shrouding" would 'require' the permission of "even if joined by a non-grey knight unit" (To the phrase, when an enemy unit targets a unit of "Grey Knights") I equally submit (In addition to all of the evidence I have provided) that the Model's Rights Cannon must also be adhered to.
Spoiler:
Do not interpret an ambiguous rule in such a way that would take away a substantial right that has been granted by other rules.
The right in question is the "Right of the Shrouding". Model's Rights specifically states that when a rule is ambiguous (such as this is with the Shrouding, and the concept of "Unit Nomenclature Individuality") that you CANNOT interpret it in such away that would take away the right of the model (which in this case, you would be).

If the "Model's Rights Cannon" is to be stricken from the record (for whatever reason) then it is safe to place "Permissive Rules Cannon" in the same "Shall not be cannon for this discussion" category. If you strike the PRC issue from the debate, then the Shrouding's ability is still intact as it need not state "A Unit of Grey knights And any other combined units" in order for this to function properly (as it does not state OTHERWISE, which is the majority case in other codexes and in the BRB specifically) Examples of why this ability DOES still function are as follows:

The Special Rule of "Blight Grenades" has the most similar wording, and its effects in the current game extend to any joined/joining units, when being declared a target in the assault phase.

The rules for "Scoring Units" would also support the shrouding, as it allows for a unit of Troops to still count as scoring (and as such, still be a unit of troops) regardless of the number of "Non-troop" units joined/joining it.

I also submit that while there are more examples of why the shrouding DOES work in this situation then the two that I have provided (if you REALLY insist I list ALL of them, I will do my best to do so after borrowing a few of my friends codexes, as I do not own EVERY codex atm) there is not a clear example in ANY of the books that would suggest otherwise. If you can find such an example that would in fact infer that a combined unit is no longer a unit of grey knights (other then "The English language, as stated earlier, there are plenty of current examples that would counter the "English language defense" ((Such as Typhus)) and due to the lack of consistency, the defense hold no water.) then for the good of the debate, please submit such evidence.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 19:02:00


Post by: kirsanth


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
kirsanth wrote: "form a powerful multi-character unit!"


So then you agree that a combined unit is multiple units then?
No, based on the fact it is listed as "a" (singular) unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 19:04:52


Post by: calypso2ts


Just want to make a clarification... "Model Right's Canon" does not actually exist in the rules. DAR made that one up - as indicated by the preceding "submit."

Also, shrouding does not require permission - a player requires permission from the rules to perform a given action.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 19:22:19


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


calypso2ts wrote:Just want to make a clarification... "Model Right's Canon" does not actually exist in the rules. DAR made that one up - as indicated by the preceding "submit."

Also, shrouding does not require permission - a player requires permission from the rules to perform a given action.


Dude, permissive ruleset isn't "real" (in the BRB) either, its a canonized idea found on Rules Layers.com (listing other canonized ideas)...

http://www.theruleslawyers.com/the-models-rights-canon/

@Kirsanth

The first Bullet on the left of that same page states that:

"Alternatively an independent character(singular) may begin the game already with a (singular) unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

By the wording of this bullet would you also claim that you may only joined ONE (singular) IC to ONE (Singular) unit at the start of the game, as the rules for deployment do not house any specifications for Multi-character units of more then 2 units being joined in deployment?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 19:32:35


Post by: kirsanth


If you are asking if 1 IC can join 2 units; not at the same time.

If you are asking if an IC can only join 1 unit; only 1 at a time, not one per game.

If you are asking if 2 ICs joining each other are somehow 2 units; no, they form a powerful multi-character unit.

If you were asking something else, I think I missed it.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:03:36


Post by: Mahtamori


Why has this thread been going so long?

Is it a "Grey Knights unit" (that's not possessive form). No, it's a unit with a Grey Knight in it. End of.

As for an IC joining a unit of ICs, of course they can. The unit is already formed, all pre-conditions have been met for joining a regular unit!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:13:05


Post by: nosferatu1001


DAR - the real problem you have is you confuse MODEL and UNIT

Shrouding talks about targetting UNITS. WHen an IC is *part of* another unit he is simply a model in that unit.

When you target the combined UNIT, while you are targetting the set of models that includes the GK, the GK is not actually a unit at this point in his own right - he is PART OF another unit. You have provided absolutely no evidence that this unit, which is required to be part of another unit, is considered a seperate unit. This is because the rules dont actually allow this, but carry on..

Therefore the IC is not a legal target, as you may only target units.

Does this make any sense to you now?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:23:31


Post by: mrdabba


Lets say your playing space wolves and you have the following unit.

Grey Knight Hero joined to Wolf Lord, Joined to Wolf priest.

what do you call that unit? is it a Grey Knight unit, Wolf Lord Unit, Wolf Priest Unit.

None of the above or all of the Above.

Honestly. if you were really playing a game and the issue of shroud came up you would have to refer to the Rolloff rule and 4+ it.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:25:00


Post by: kirsanth


mrdabba wrote:what do you call that unit? is it a Grey Knight unit, Wolf Lord Unit, Wolf Priest Unit.
A powerful multi-character unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:28:55


Post by: nosferatu1001


It's even in the rules - A unit. Not 2, 3 or more. Just A unit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:46:52


Post by: mrdabba


so I guess shrouding doesn't work if I'm playing Deamonhunters and I join a GreyKnight hero to a Grey Knight hero.

I'm no longer a grey knight unit. I'm a "Multi-Character" Unit?

is that correct?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:51:09


Post by: SaintHazard


mrdabba wrote:so I guess shrouding doesn't work if I'm playing Deamonhunters and I join a GreyKnight hero to a Grey Knight hero.

I'm no longer a grey knight unit. I'm a "Multi-Character" Unit?

is that correct?

Is it "a unit of Grey Knights?"








(yes)


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:51:55


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Mahtamori wrote:
Is it a "Grey Knights unit" (that's not possessive form). No, it's a unit with a Grey Knight in it. End of.


Unfortunately, the definition of a "Grey Knights Unit" on page 20 of C: DH disagrees with you. Going by your standards, an ork warboss combined with a squad of Ork boys is not a unit of Orks, but a unit with orks in it (No Waaaugh bonus) a Blood Angels Assault Marine squad with Astorath is a unit with Blood angels in it (and not a unit of Blood angels, so no "Decent of Angels" or "Red Thirst") and any unit of Eldar with a farseer (or any other IC) attached to it is no longer a unit of Eldar (but a unit with Eldar in it) and thus, cannot be targeted by Eldar Psychic Spells (or certain abilities like Eldrad's redeployment)... which is where my major concern is with this ruling, and why the discussion has gone on for so long.

kirsanth wrote:
If you were asking something else, I think I missed it.


Can you join 2 Ics (example, a Wolf Lord and a Rune Priest) to a single unit (Example, Grey Hunters) during deployment?

According to the Bullet I referenced, No you cannot, according to how I've seen it played (for instance, in 'ard Boyz Semi-finals lists) yes you can. See the conflict?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:52:51


Post by: mrdabba


SaintHazard wrote:
mrdabba wrote:so I guess shrouding doesn't work if I'm playing Deamonhunters and I join a GreyKnight hero to a Grey Knight hero.

I'm no longer a grey knight unit. I'm a "Multi-Character" Unit?

is that correct?

Is it "a unit of Grey Knights?"








(yes)


According to the post above. Your are wrong sir

it is A Multi Character Unit. per the rulebook.


of course I dont agree with that. It is a Unit of Grey Knights. and it is also a Unit of grey Knights.

Just like my previous post about the space wolf multi character unit can be labled as A Unit of Grey Knights. I can also be labled as a Unit of Wolf Lord or a Unit of Wolf Priest. its All of the above.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:52:58


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


SaintHazard wrote:
mrdabba wrote:so I guess shrouding doesn't work if I'm playing Deamonhunters and I join a GreyKnight hero to a Grey Knight hero.

I'm no longer a grey knight unit. I'm a "Multi-Character" Unit?

is that correct?

Is it "a unit of Grey Knights?"




No, its a Unit of Grey knights and a unit of grey knights. As you have already discussed, Shrouding does not accommodate combined units.

(Or, depending on your perspective, what Mrdabba said.)


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:56:24


Post by: mrdabba


heh you posted to fast Daemon. i didnt think people would get my sarcasm so I had to edit.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 20:57:32


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:
When you target the combined UNIT, while you are targetting the set of models that includes the GK, the GK is not actually a unit at this point in his own right - he is PART OF another unit. You have provided absolutely no evidence that this unit, which is required to be part of another unit, is considered a seperate unit. This is because the rules dont actually allow this, but carry on..


Care to explain why the opposite is the truth with special rules such as "Blight Grenades" which specifically states "A Unit of Plague Marines" (Or does Typhus not actually receive the benefit of his special rule "The Destroyer Hive" as he is not technically a "Unit of Plague Marines"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Does this make any sense to you now?


Does this make any sense to you now?

~~~~ EDIT ~~~~

BEFORE YOU START CLAIMING THAT BLIGHT GRENADES DO NOT WORK THE SAME WAY(As they may be conceived as "Wargear" or "Equipment" instead of special rules), I WOULD SUGGEST YOU READ CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES PAGE 38 BEFORE MAKING SUCH A BLATANTLY FALSE STATEMENT!


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 21:00:16


Post by: kirsanth


Does every character have the "Grey Knights" special rule?

That would seem to qualify as "a unit of Grey Knights" if so.

If some of them do, that would seem to be a unit containing Grey Knights.

If none of them do, then there is no reason to care.

Multi-character is a descriptor, not an ending. The reason it is important, however, is that it does state that the unit is a unit.

As for the bullet you referenced, I am going to read it now--but as I recall, it is allowed as you join a character to a unit. Then do it again--since the IC + unit is a unit. I will check, though.

Editing to add:
It's the bullet on the right-erp.
It still reads as I recalled though--deployment is per unit, and until joined each IC is one.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 21:06:04


Post by: SaintHazard


^ What he said.

Both models in the unit have the "Grey Knights" special rule, therefore it is "a unit of Grey Knights."

Shrouding applies.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 21:15:15


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


kirsanth wrote:Does every character have the "Grey Knights" special rule?

That would seem to qualify as "a unit of Grey Knights" if so.

If some of them do, that would seem to be a unit containing Grey Knights.

If none of them do, then there is no reason to care.


Unfortunately it is not up to you or me to arbitrarily decide what a unit of Grey knights is, that definition is listed on page 20 of C: DH, and holds no accomodations for "Combined Units" or "Multi-Character" units.

If "Multi-Character" units or "Combined units" do not hold their original nomenclature of "X unit" but instead take on the new title of "Combined" or "Multi-character" unit as you are implying, (and as such, are using as justification to deny the unit of grey knights their shrouding rules) then what difference would it make if the 'Original' units were "Grey Knight" units individually, the fact is, by your logic, they are NO LONGER A UNIT OF GREY KNIGHTS, so they don't get shrouding.

kirsanth wrote:
Multi-character is a descriptor, not an ending. The reason it is important, however, is that it does state that the unit is a unit.


You are also failing to acknowledge the other bullets that state that while it is "a" unit, it does not function in the same way (in fact, in some ways SIGNIFICANTLY different) as other "Units" but more so like a "Unit which contains units"

kirsanth wrote:
As for the bullet you referenced, I am going to read it now--but as I recall, it is allowed as you join a character to a unit. Then do it again--since the IC + unit is a unit. I will check, though.


Nothing says you can do it again, permissive rules remember

kirsanth wrote:
Editing to add:
It's the bullet on the right-erp.
It still reads as I recalled though--deployment is per unit, and until joined each IC is one.



Where does it state that deployment is "Per Unit" or that this type of deployment is legal. Again, in "preparing reserves" (as a further example) it says you must "Specify if any of your independent characters a joining A unit" which then (If using the English language as a reference, which you all claim we MUST) it actually states that you may ONLY join ANY/ALL of your ICs to ONE unit of your choosing...

Is it now becoming clear why the "English Language" is not a solid defense in this argument?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 21:22:46


Post by: kirsanth


I do not recall using English as a defense in this thread--maybe I misremember though.

As for the reserves (not sure why, but) stating "any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit" does nothing but re-assert that they cannot join 2 units and must be declared to be joining one to use a single reserve roll.

As for permissive, can you tell me why a unit containing models without the rule "Grey Knights" would be a "unit of Grey Knights?" Once you really nail that one, it should be easy to justify it applying without even having Daemonhunters.

I think the counter-point to that is over-done.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 21:35:17


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


kirsanth wrote:
As for permissive, can you tell me why a unit containing models without the rule "Grey Knights" would be a "unit of Grey Knights?" Once you really nail that one, it should be easy to justify it applying without even having Daemonhunters.


The "models" with the Grey Knight special rule (even though this does not guarantee that it is a "Unit of Grey Knights" the DH Codex defines Possessed Marines as Daemons even though they lack the "Daemon" Special rule***...) which are units of Grey knights, are still units of Grey knights, as they are being targeted ('mixed' or not) their "Shrouding" special rule would activate. I do not believe in the permissive ruleset, but it is the prime counterargument against my claims, if it is not being held, then all "The Shrouding" looks for is the unit of grey knights, which would still be present in the combined unit (as long as one part of it is defined as a "Grey Knight" unit on page 20, remember, Codex trumps BRB) and since the condition is fulfilled, the ability is activated. And as the shrouding states that if the Grey Knights(not the unit of grey knights) are not within the range of the distance rolled, the firing cannot occur, and it is because of this that the other, non-grey knight, members of the unit are protected. Not because THEY(the Non-Gks) have the shrouding, but because the GREY KNIGHTS have the shrouding, and the wording on the shrouding does not insinuate that the distance rolled is the distance they are allowed to target the grey knights (so the issue of "Picking out targets" on either side is not present) it is the distance they are allowed to FIRE NORMALLY, as they CANNOT FIRE at the Grey Knights due to the wording on the shrouding (Remember, Codex Trumps BRB) the cannot fire at the non-greyknights Joined to the unit.

Is this making any more sense?


*** Edit

Wanted to add, that while a Daemon Prince has the "Daemon" special rule, he is not defined as a "Daemon" in C: DH and as such, is safe from many of the DH anti-Daemon abilities ((RAW))


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 21:48:11


Post by: nosferatu1001


DAR - all caps is, well, not good. Typhus blight grenades, RAW, have NEVER worked - he is not a plague marine. We'll forget the argument by strawman fallacy as well.

Any chance you can get back to the original point, which is:

You are claiming the ability to target multiple units. Please provide evidence for this extraordinary claim, or quit with your incessant claims that there are multiple units being targetted.

Once you have accepted that targetting multiple units is not allowed without a special rule saying so, you will hopefully come to the conclusion that, when targetting the combined unit, you cannot in ANY WAY shape or form be considered to be targetting a GK Unit.

Once you are not targetting a GK unit shrouding does not apply. Any clearer now?

Additionally: It states you can select An IC to join a unit. Once that IC has joined that unit, they are again one unit and you can join An IC to that unit. ANd so on, ad infinitum. Try harder with your spurious arguments.

Is it becoming any clearer why your confusion over "model", "unit", 'targetting", "shooting" etc arent helping your argument in anyway shape or form?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and just to add: quit with the "warboss + Ork Boyz /= Ork Unit" - given that all units are described as orks, barring gretchin, you are yet again simply wrong in this.

Sigh.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 21:51:57


Post by: SaintHazard


I think some meaning is getting lost in a sea of words here.

DAR, please tell me if this interpretation of your argument is correct.

You're saying that when a foe targets the unit that happens to contain both Grey Knights and, say, for our purposes, ISTs, it is targeting "a unit of Grey Knights" and "a unit of ISTs" simultaneously, since the combined unit is a combination of those two units, thus fulfilling the requirement that the foe must be targeting "a unit of Grey Knights." Right?

Assuming this interpretation is correct, what WE are trying to say is that the foe is not in fact targeting (in fact, cannot legally target) "a unit of Grey Knights" and "a unit of ISTs" simultaneously - they are, instead, targeting "a unit of Grey Knights and ISTs," since the unit is combined, and you cannot target multiple units with a single shooting attack.

Because the unit of Grey Knights and ISTs is not exclusively a unit of Grey Knights, it becomes something else entirely - that being best described as "a unit of Grey Knights and ISTs," which is comprised of what were previously two seperate units - one of Grey Knights, and one of ISTs.

The bottom line of our argument is that at the time they unit is being targeted, it is not in fact "a unit of Grey Knights." It is "a unit of Grey Knights and ISTs."

Unless all of the models in the combined unit can be defined as Grey Knights (and the DH codex defines Grey Knights as models with the "Grey Knight" special rule) then it is not "a unit of Grey Knights," and shrouding does not apply.

...does that make more sense?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 21:55:54


Post by: kirsanth


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Is this making any more sense?
To me, yes.

I get where you are coming from, and to a large degree agree with how you get where you are going.

Part of the issue is the assertion that codex trumps BRB. If so, SA and Ork LD is whacked, amoung other things.

Part is "The Shrouding" looks for is the unit of grey knights, which would still be present in the combined unit" because there are models in a unit with the Grey Knights rule--they are no longer a unit in their own right.

The daemon thing reads to me as a lark, though. See: Smoke, Storm Shields, etc.

Part is the opposite statement to what you said here, "as they CANNOT FIRE at the Grey Knights due to the wording on the shrouding the cannot fire at the non-greyknights Joined to the unit. "as they CANNOT FIRE at the Grey Knights due to the wording on the shrouding they can fire at the non-greyknights joined to the unit"

Both get silly fast.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 22:03:44


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


nosferatu1001 wrote:DAR - all caps is, well, not good. Typhus blight grenades, RAW, have NEVER worked - he is not a plague marine. We'll forget the argument by strawman fallacy as well.


Now what about the Plague Marines joined by the Sorcerer of Tzeentch?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Any chance you can get back to the original point, which is:

You are claiming the ability to target multiple units. Please provide evidence for this extraordinary claim, or quit with your incessant claims that there are multiple units being targetted.


See my post on page 3 (I think it was) where I highlighted this evidence, and you chose to ignore it. You have yet to prove that Shooting at a "Multi-Character" unit is not shooting at "Multiple units" I am interested in seeing how you defend this one tho, I've been waiting for the answer now for three days (at least)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Once you have accepted that targetting multiple units is not allowed without a special rule saying so, you will hopefully come to the conclusion that, when targetting the combined unit, you cannot in ANY WAY shape or form be considered to be targetting a GK Unit.


See above...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Once you are not targetting a GK unit shrouding does not apply. Any clearer now?


You've yet to prove that by targeting a unit which contains grey knights, you are not targeting grey knights? Any clearer now?


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Additionally: It states you can select An IC to join a unit. Once that IC has joined that unit, they are again one unit and you can join An IC to that unit. ANd so on, ad infinitum. Try harder with your spurious arguments.


Not in the "Preparing Reserves" rules, it states that you get to make "A" decision to link ANY ICs to "A"(singular) unit when you are preparing reserves, you must do this FIRST, BEFORE any other reserves are declared, and if you do not link the ICs to the SINGULAR unit (according to raw) then the ICs will roll separately (and count as a SEPARATE unit) when rolling for reserves. Not to complicated given the school of thought you have presented...


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh, and just to add: quit with the "warboss + Ork Boyz /= Ork Unit" - given that all units are described as orks, barring gretchin, you are yet again simply wrong in this.


Why am I wrong? You state that when a Unit of X and a Unit of X are joined, they are no longer a Unit of X. They are a combined unit of X and X. Waaaugh does not state that "All Units of Orks, and any combined units consisting of units of Orks" and therefor, by your definition, if they are a combined unit, they are denied their Waaaugh bonuses. Also while we are at it, where are the definitions of a "Unit of Orks" or a "unit of space wolves" or "a Friendly Unit" in any of the rulebooks for that matter?

Its really not all that difficult, at this point, you are arguing with yourself, as I am merely using your own justifications placed into other contexts, in which if they were applied, drastic changes would occur to how the game is currently played (which is why I have been fighting your ruling so adamantly)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kirsanth wrote: "as they CANNOT FIRE at the Grey Knights due to the wording on the shrouding they can fire at the non-greyknights joined to the unit"

Both get silly fast.


Actually this last one is an easy fix, if you reread the shrouding a little bit closer, it says that in order to fire normally, they must be in range of the Grey knights, and then continues to specifically make note that they cannot make any other firing that phase "A unit which fails to detect the Grey knights (not the Grey knight unit) misses its change to fire at an alternative target in the confusion." So, as the shrouding states that an alternative target cannot be fire at, and that firing cannot occur normally, the unit cannot fire AT ALL if they fail to see the Grey Knights. This would ALSO apply to things that CAN specifically target two separate units (for instance Long Fangs with Fire Control) if one of their targets would be the Grey Knights, and they fail to detect the Grey Knights, their firing is halted due to the Shrouding Special Rule, and as all firing with a unit happens at once, when the shrouding is failed (and the Long Fangs are denied the ability to shoot, as per shrouding rule) the other target (as per "Fire Control") Would also be indirectly protected!

Again, its the wording of the Shrouding that (in my opinion) has been ignore the most!



Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 22:12:12


Post by: Gorkamorka


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Any chance you can get back to the original point, which is:

You are claiming the ability to target multiple units. Please provide evidence for this extraordinary claim, or quit with your incessant claims that there are multiple units being targetted.


See my post on page 3 (I think it was) where I highlighted this evidence, and you chose to ignore it. You have yet to prove that Shooting at a "Multi-Character" unit is not shooting at "Multiple units" I am interested in seeing how you defend this one tho, I've been waiting for the answer now for three days (at least)

Wait... so you're claiming that a "multi-character unit" is... multiple units?
...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 22:22:45


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


Gorkamorka wrote:
Wait... so you're claiming that a "multi-character unit" is... multiple units?
...


yes, in military terms, a squad is a unit, a platoon is also a unit, a platoon consist of two or more squads (two or more units, inside of a SINGLE unit).

I mean, we are playing a wargame... right?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 22:38:51


Post by: kirsanth


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:yes, in military terms, a squad is a unit, a platoon is also a unit, a platoon consist of two or more squads (two or more units, inside of a SINGLE unit).
In game terms, however, this is not the case.

Just so people do not think I play favorites though. . . .

In the section for "Shooting at independent characters" it states that the IC is "considered part of that unit".

More reading.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 22:52:25


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


My MAJOR concern out of this entire debate is the sleeping devil that the outcome of this ruling may cause to have a VERY rude awakening.

If we rule here that "When a Unit joins another unit, it is no longer its original unit, but a "Combined unit" that does not contain its original nomenclature"

The repercussions of setting such a precedent will be MONUMENTAL and that is why I am fighting it so strongly...

While this would mean that GKs would have a SLIGHT advantage that many believed they did not deserve in the past (and as such, might POSSIBLY convince more SM players to take allies, however it is still very point-heavy and eats one of your precious HQ slots). I, as a Chaos Space Marine player, would HAPPILY make that trade then go down the dangerous road of "Player defined unit nomenclature"... Which is why I'm shrugging off the insults of some, accepting the ideas of the dissenting opinions, and trying in my very best for the outcome that I see of such a ruling passing is clear to EVERYONE on BOTH sides of the debate, before we foolishly go and counter-act so MANY rules in which this notion is addressed!

I However (if this helps anyone see more so where I am coming from) would be IN EXTREME SUPPORT of a RULES CHANGE that would NOT allow the shrouding to apply to joined units, but ONLY IF it is called what it actually is, a RULES CHANGE, and not misnomered as "how the rules currently work" as such as statement would over complicate a good 60%+ of the current rules.

So to those whom are dissenting, I implore you to reread the rules in which you are contesting and defending, understand the situation from EVERY ASPECT POSSIBLE and understand that if you are merely fighting the ruling because you simply believe that it would be game-changing balance wise for GKs to protect other units with this ability, to take the discussion to "Proposed Rules" where I will stand beside you in that fight, and not let pride, or worry of the 'power' this ruling will give Daemonhunters, and understand the severe negative, and complicated, repercussions that this ruling will introduce to a game, where already it's biggest flaw is in the stark debate over the rules (I've seen more people get upset over controversial rulings then rolling un-godly horribly, and in almost every game I have played/seen played, at least 35% of the game ((in MANY instances WAY MORE)) is spent debating rules as opposed to ENJOYING THE GAME.) So please, think long and hard before introducing a concept that will dramatically over complicate the rules of this game...

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 22:57:23


Post by: nosferatu1001


Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Any chance you can get back to the original point, which is:

You are claiming the ability to target multiple units. Please provide evidence for this extraordinary claim, or quit with your incessant claims that there are multiple units being targetted.


See my post on page 3 (I think it was) where I highlighted this evidence, and you chose to ignore it. You have yet to prove that Shooting at a "Multi-Character" unit is not shooting at "Multiple units" I am interested in seeing how you defend this one tho, I've been waiting for the answer now for three days (at least)


Wait - so you are claiming that shooting at A multi character UNIT is shooting at multiple units?

Is your comphrension of English so poor? Seriously?

You are firing at a unit consisting of multiple characters. In a similar way that you shoot at any unit consisting of multiple models.

You've been waitign 3 days to be told to look for the "A" in the sentence!
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Once you have accepted that targetting multiple units is not allowed without a special rule saying so, you will hopefully come to the conclusion that, when targetting the combined unit, you cannot in ANY WAY shape or form be considered to be targetting a GK Unit.


See above...


Yep, see above. Where a single unit, aka "a" unit, is the one being targetted.

Sheesh, you're a law minor?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Once you are not targetting a GK unit shrouding does not apply. Any clearer now?


You've yet to prove that by targeting a unit which contains grey knights, you are not targeting grey knights? Any clearer now?


Any clearer by you dropping CRITICAL wording in an attempt to make your argument any less flawed?

The ACTUAL rule requires you to be targetting a Grey Knight Unit. Note the really, reaaly REALLY key word there: UNIT.

Targetting a subset of a unit, aka "models", is not targetting a unit. The rules only allow you to target UNITS.

Find the GK unit in {GK+non-GK} as far as the *shooting* rules is concerned. I would like to again remind you that:
1) An IC is PART OF a unit for shooting.
2) You cannot target a component of a unit specifically, you may only target the UNIT - barring a special rule, that is.
3) You may only target a single unit.

I declare I am targetting the SINGLE unit {GK+non-GK} - therefore NOT targetting a GK Unit, and therefore no shrouding.

Really, really, really simple.
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Additionally: It states you can select An IC to join a unit. Once that IC has joined that unit, they are again one unit and you can join An IC to that unit. ANd so on, ad infinitum. Try harder with your spurious arguments.


Not in the "Preparing Reserves" rules, it states that you get to make "A" decision to link ANY ICs to "A"(singular) unit when you are preparing reserves, you must do this FIRST, BEFORE any other reserves are declared, and if you do not link the ICs to the SINGULAR unit (according to raw) then the ICs will roll separately (and count as a SEPARATE unit) when rolling for reserves. Not to complicated given the school of thought you have presented...


As opposed to your "train of thought" which is more like a car wreck?

Resolve your issues above first, then your attempts to derail the thread into nonsense can be dealt with.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh, and just to add: quit with the "warboss + Ork Boyz /= Ork Unit" - given that all units are described as orks, barring gretchin, you are yet again simply wrong in this.


Why am I wrong? You state that when a Unit of X and a Unit of X are joined, they are no longer a Unit of X. They are a combined unit of X and X. Waaaugh does not state that "All Units of Orks, and any combined units consisting of units of Orks" and therefor, by your definition, if they are a combined unit, they are denied their Waaaugh bonuses. Also while we are at it, where are the definitions of a "Unit of Orks" or a "unit of space wolves" or "a Friendly Unit" in any of the rulebooks for that matter?


No, we are stating that a unit of X and a unit of Y are a unit of {X+Y}

A unit of orks joined to a unit of orks is, weirdly enough, a unit of Orks.
A unit of Orks joined to a unit that isnt orks is, weirdly enough, not a unit of Orks.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Its really not all that difficult, at this point, you are arguing with yourself, as I am merely using your own justifications placed into other contexts, in which if they were applied, drastic changes would occur to how the game is currently played (which is why I have been fighting your ruling so adamantly)


Except your spurious argument actually fails at the first hurdle: it requires you to be able to target multiple units, OR it requires you to be able to target components of a unit.

Neither argument holds any water at all. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

RAW: Targetting a unit of {GK+non-GK} requires targetting a non-GK unit. No Shrouding. End of argument now, please? You really dont have any leg to stand on, and you are just embarrasing yourself by not even seeing the word "A" in the phrase "A multi-charact unit", nor even the singular form of unit...its kinda hilarious, really.

You also seem to think that a platoon is a single unit. not in 40k it isnt, which is the only place where the definition of unit matters...


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/28 23:31:50


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


First off, please, calm down. The moment you start taking this debate personally, the moment this debate is no longer a debate...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Wait - so you are claiming that shooting at A multi character UNIT is shooting at multiple units?

Is your comphrension of English so poor? Seriously?


No, a unit can be composed of many different units, you should probably look up the word "unit" again before making comments on my "comphrension" of English...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are firing at a unit consisting of multiple characters. In a similar way that you shoot at any unit consisting of multiple models.


Characters are units in their own right (this has been discussed before)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You've been waitign 3 days to be told to look for the "A" in the sentence!


What does the "a" actually signify.

If you are holding five "one-dollar" bills in your hand, you are still holding A unit of 5$ that is both worth 5$ and still 5 individual dollars...


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, see above. Where a single unit, aka "a" unit, is the one being targetted.


Targeting a single unit which contains multiple units is what you seem to be missing here... it is possible for A unit (platoon) to consist of MULTIPLE units (Two or more squads, by definition)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sheesh, you're a law minor?


Yes I am
Spoiler:
and its rather clear that you are just a minor lets not turn this into a flame war, please?



nosferatu1001 wrote:
Any clearer by you dropping CRITICAL wording in an attempt to make your argument any less flawed?


As you are dropping pages of evidence, and sheer definitions of the words you claim I cannot comprehend, to make your argument less flawed, but even still, what critical wording? The One Unit? Again, I have already proven that "A Unit can consist of Multiple Units". Its really not all that foreign a concept.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The ACTUAL rule requires you to be targetting a Grey Knight Unit. Note the really, reaaly REALLY key word there: UNIT.


Note the definition of Grey Knight Unit (described in C: DH) is NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME UNIT DEFINITION BEING USED IN THE BRB! SPECIFIC > GENERAL.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Targetting a subset of a unit, aka "models", is not targetting a unit. The rules only allow you to target UNITS.


And when you are targeting the combined unit, you are still targeting what the CODEX DAEMONHUNTERS DEFINES as a unit of Grey Knights.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find the GK unit in {GK+non-GK} as far as the *shooting* rules is concerned. I would like to again remind you that:
1) An IC is PART OF a unit for shooting.
2) You cannot target a component of a unit specifically, you may only target the UNIT - barring a special rule, that is.
3) You may only target a single unit.


Two different definitions of "Unit" bro, and before you say "THATS A LOAD OF CROC" keep in mind that the term "Unit" is applicable to HUNDREDS of definitions, it is you who is merging them all, and it is that mindset I fear could cause an unprecedented wave of conflicts in the rules.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
I declare I am targetting the SINGLE unit {GK+non-GK} - therefore NOT targetting a GK Unit, and therefore no shrouding.

Really, really, really simple.


Again, above.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As opposed to your "train of thought" which is more like a car wreck?


Tenants of YMDC, care to back up that statement? Or would you rather retract it?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Resolve your issues above first, then your attempts to derail the thread into nonsense can be dealt with.


Stop calling me Black, Kettle!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, we are stating that a unit of X and a unit of Y are a unit of {X+Y}

A unit of orks joined to a unit of orks is, weirdly enough, a unit of Orks.
A unit of Orks joined to a unit that isnt orks is, weirdly enough, not a unit of Orks.


No, as stated above, if you have X and Y you are X + Y

If you have X and X you are X+X

X+X =/= X With the amount of criticism you give my English, you'd think you'd have a tighter grasp on Math....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except your spurious argument actually fails at the first hurdle: it requires you to be able to target multiple units, OR it requires you to be able to target components of a unit.


No, you want to define the word "Unit" in the way that best supports your argument, I chose to use the ones provided by the books/codex/english language. And that is, what I have noticed, the fundamental difference in our posts... I'm basing mine off of something.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
RAW: Targetting a unit of {GK+non-GK} requires targetting a non-GK unit. No Shrouding. End of argument now, please? You really dont have any leg to stand on, and you are just embarrasing yourself by not even seeing the word "A" in the phrase "A multi-charact unit", nor even the singular form of unit...its kinda hilarious, really.

You also seem to think that a platoon is a single unit. not in 40k it isnt, which is the only place where the definition of unit matters...


Weren't you using the "The book is in English so you have to use English" defense?

That aside, you have still yet to come up with any solid support for why the books definition of Unit trumps the codex!

~DAR


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/29 00:22:14


Post by: SaintHazard


Common misconception. It's not a black-and-white situation. Definitions of terms in the BRB go like this: if it's explicitly defined in the BRB, you must use the BRB definition. Terms like "unit," "target," "embark," "assault," and so on have very specific meanings within the context of the rules - and these meanings are often slightly or sometimes even greatly different from their dictionary definition. On the other hand, you have terms like "it," "and," "towards," "up," "down," and so on that are NOT given specific definitions within the context of the rules. That's where the English language kicks in. If the term ("unit") has a specific BRB definition, you must use that definition to decide what can or cannot affect it, or what it can or cannot do. If the term doesn't have a specific BRB definition, you have to interpolate what it means based on its definition in the English language.

"Unit" has a very specific BRB definition. Therefore real-world definitions of the word have no effect whatsoever on the rules (such as your example of a real-world military "unit").

Does that make more sense?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/29 03:34:24


Post by: ChrisCP





I've posted this again, darth bob tried to dispute the first diagrams validity with
Drath Bob wrote:What is that little purple area made of? A different unit and a Grey Knight unit. I'm not saying the blue has become a unit of Grey Knights, nor am I saying that the Purple has become a unit of Grey Knights (so don't put words in my mouth). I'm saying that one of the ingredients of that purple unit is a Grey Knight unit. Because there is a Grey Knight unit within that purple area, if you shoot the purple area, you are shooting at a Grey Knight unit, and therefore, test for Shrouding.

Which I belive Nos has just readdressed on this page

And, what about the second diagram... explain to us how one could shoot at a unit of Grey Knights whit the conditions set there?


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/29 06:40:50


Post by: Kapitalist-Pig


ChrisCP wrote:


I've posted this again, darth bob tried to dispute the first diagrams validity with
Drath Bob wrote:What is that little purple area made of? A different unit and a Grey Knight unit. I'm not saying the blue has become a unit of Grey Knights, nor am I saying that the Purple has become a unit of Grey Knights (so don't put words in my mouth). I'm saying that one of the ingredients of that purple unit is a Grey Knight unit. Because there is a Grey Knight unit within that purple area, if you shoot the purple area, you are shooting at a Grey Knight unit, and therefore, test for Shrouding.

Which I belive Nos has just readdressed on this page

And, what about the second diagram... explain to us how one could shoot at a unit of Grey Knights whit the conditions set there?


I get what your saying, that it is a unit that now has two different types in it making a new one.

Just for the sake of arguement though, does shrouding say a unit of GK's? So if a unit of GK's is in the new unit, does it not also mean that your are shooting at a unit of GK's? Regardless of the fact that something else is there are your not shooting at a unit of GK's? At this point you need to think what shooting at a unit of GK's really means. Does it mean GK's and only GK's? If so where does the word only appear in the codex? If you are saying that GK models are no longer GK models after they join another squad (and this is funny to think and I know it is ludicris and I thought this) then when a IC joins another unit you lose all the IC rules, because he is no longer an IC, he is a part of the unit, and since he is a part of the unit and no longer an IC because he has a new type of unit you loss all the bells and whistles you bought when you paid for the IC. If this really makes you want to take a shot at me just pass, because I know it is not what you are saying.(And again I just thought it so I thought it was funny and brought it up).

Have a nice night everyone.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/29 06:54:01


Post by: Daemon-Archon Ren


SaintHazard wrote:Common misconception. It's not a black-and-white situation. Definitions of terms in the BRB go like this: if it's explicitly defined in the BRB, you must use the BRB definition. Terms like "unit," "target," "embark," "assault," and so on have very specific meanings within the context of the rules


The problem is, you are making the above statement up, and if the above statement were true, then the BRB'd definition of "Unit" would over-ride and codex-specific definition of unit (which you are stating with the GK argument) and as such, there would be no such thing as an "ork unit", an "eldar unit", a "blood angels" unit or even a "friendly unit" as the BRB does not state definitions for these SPECIFIC conditions. Remember SPECIFIC > General...

Sooo... if you go with the BRB's unit definition, you never gain shrouding, even if you are a single unit of grey knights (as Unit of Grey knights is not covered in the overleaf of "unit types" or a unit type of anything other then "Infantry, B & C, MCs, Jump Infantry, Artillery, Bikes and jet bikes, and Vehicles" as you are saying that the BRB unit definition over-rides codex, you would lose your codex specific definitions.

I will not allow this, as it would dramatically alter the game.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/29 07:32:20


Post by: DevianID


Ren you never addressed the bit I brought up... namely, when a unit with a GK IC is shot at, the GK IC is a member of the unit he joined. He is not a GK unit... units are singular things. Lash of Submission is a good example, as it moves a single unit. According to your reading, if you lash a BA assault squad with a GK IC joined, you can either move the GK IC unit or the BA assault squad unit, as there are 2 units within 1 unit. THIS IS FALSE! The GK IC becomes a member of the BA assault unit, and the singular unit is moved--there is only 1 unit, as the GK IC becomes a member of the BA assault squad unit, and is no longer a unit in his own right.

You allude that such a marrige would undermine the rules, but I fail to see it. I was really hoping you would directly look into my argument--I agree with you Ren that other arguments against your position have logical flaws, but I believe that I have shown that the GK IC is no longer a GK unit when shot at when attached to a BA assault squad for example, supported directly by the BRB quote you provided.


Grey Knight Heroes and Joined Units . . .  @ 2010/09/29 07:43:06


Post by: insaniak


If neither side has been convinced after 10 pages, I think we can safely assume they're not going to.

Let's put this one to bed for a while, and put it into the 'Discuss it with your opponent if it's likely to be an issue' pile.