23084
Post by: Captain Solon
Hi. this is my idea for a primarch. I'm going with rowboat since he seems easy enough.
Rouboute Guilliam
300 points
Composition:
1 unique
SL
WS7 BS6 S/T4 W4 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv 2+ 4+
I felt his skill wouldn't necesarily lie in being able to smite his foe in combat, but more in tactically controling the situation. So, his stats aren't god-like.
Wargear:
Armour of maccrage
The emperors hand
The iron halo
the pistol of absolution
Armour of maccrage:
Is artificer armour, it gives the Feel no pain Special rule.
The Emperors hand is a master crafted relic blade. it grants a single parry save, in close combat per turn. this means if he is hit, roll a D6 and ignore this attack. cannot be taken against units with a higher I then him, and is granted against the most powerful attack damage he takes.
The pistol of absolution is a mastercrafted pistol made specxially for Rouboute guilliam.
This is effectively a plasma pistol, but without gets hot!
12" S7 AP2, Pistol
Special rules
All normal for a captain.
Up to three unmounted infantry squads may have one of the following rules:
infiltrate
Tank hunters
Furious charge
thoughts?
9708
Post by: Orkeosaurus
Here are my stats for him: Rowboat Girlyman, Primarch of the Ultramarines and All Around Failure Points: 11 Composition: Unique WS2 BS2 S4 T4 W3 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv2+/4+ Wargear: Artificer Armor Master-Crafted Relic Blade Bolt Pistol Iron Halo Special Rules: Idiot Arrogant Inferior Tactician Idiot: Rowboat Girlyman is an idiot, who can't even show up to Terra on time, despite claiming to be logistical genius. An army that contains Girlyman cannot seize the initiative. Further, any player going against an army that contains him will seize the initiative on a 5+. Arrogant: Girlyman thinks he's some sort of brilliant leader, even when he's getting his own men killed. All models in Girlyman's army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Furthermore, Girlyman and whatever squad he's attached to have the Rage USR. Inferior Tactician: Girlyman could never compare to Alpharius in terms of leadership ability, tactical awareness, or even sense of style. The Ultramarines look like a bunch of scared, confused children whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion's strategic mastery. Any Space Marine army with Girlyman in it loses And They Shall Know No Fear, and has every model's Leadership reduced by 1 whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion. Also, every model in the Alpha Legion has rending. Hope it doesn't seem to biased. 
33160
Post by: Iur_tae_mont
Orkeosaurus wrote:Here are my stats for him:
Rowboat Girlyman, Primarch of the Ultramarines and All Around Failure
Points: 11
Composition: Unique
WS2 BS2 S4 T4 W3 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv2+/4+
Wargear:
Artificer Armor
Master-Crafted Relic Blade
Bolt Pistol
Iron Halo
Special Rules:
Idiot
Arrogant
Inferior Tactician
Idiot: Rowboat Girlyman is an idiot, who can't even show up to Terra on time, despite claiming to be logistical genius. An army that contains Girlyman cannot seize the initiative. Further, any player going against an army that contains him will seize the initiative on a 5+.
Arrogant: Girlyman thinks he's some sort of brilliant leader, even when he's getting his own men killed. All models in Girlyman's army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Furthermore, Girlyman and whatever squad he's attached to have the Rage USR.
Inferior Tactician: Girlyman could never compare to Alpharius in terms of leadership ability, tactical awareness, or even sense of style. The Ultramarines look like a bunch of scared, confused children whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion's strategic mastery. Any Space Marine army with Girlyman in it loses And They Shall Know No Fear, and has every model's Leadership reduced by 1 whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion. Also, every model in the Alpha Legion has rending.
Hope it doesn't seem to biased.
FINALLY! A Space Marine my Drones can beat in CC. 
23084
Post by: Captain Solon
orkeo, I don't like guillaume. I'm trying to show makers how a primarch should be.
I hate seeing a primarch with statline 10.
33836
Post by: COMMANDER SUNTZU
To be honest a primarch would be more powerful than even that of abaddon so they would end up costing a godly amount such as 800 to 1000 points. Remember some primarchs were nearly as powerful as the emperor himself .
23084
Post by: Captain Solon
no, sun.
A primarch, as much as we'd like him to be, is still a space marine, not a god.
Same is the emperor.
Their stats, as such should never really exceed 7 in my opinion, and 6 is that of an unearthly hero or master.
Leave it to the other races to have values of 8,9,10. we'll enjoy our weaponspam, and our kewl powers that make our enemies say WTF?
6656
Post by: Storm Lord
Captain Solon wrote:
The Emperors hand is a master crafted relic blade. it grants a single parry save, in close combat per turn. this means if he is hit, roll a D6 and ignore this attack. cannot be taken against units with a higher I then him, and is granted against the most powerful attack damage he takes.
Wait... roll a D6 and ignore this attack? Am I missing something or are you telling us we roll a dice and whatever the result is the attack is ignored? Why not just not bother rolling the dice and ignore the attack?
Also define most powerful attack. Does that mean the highest strength one, the one that ignores saves, one that inflicts ID due to a special rule...etc
Or did you mean roll a D6 and on a result of 4+ (or similar) the highest strength attack is ignored.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm nitpicking
26752
Post by: Corennus
Roboute Guilliman:
300 points
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique)
Unit Type : Infantry
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
7 6 6 5 5 6 5 10 2+
Wargear:
Gauntlets of Ultramar
Gold Halo (3++ Inv Save)
Artificer Armour
Sword of Macragge
Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear
Combat Tactics
Independant Character
Tactical Genius *
Father of the Codex*
Orbital Bombardment
Eternal Warrior
*Tactical Genius:
Guilliman's knowledge of tactics and strategies means he can re-roll all shooting and close combat attacks, as well as automatically passing all Leadership and Morale tests UNLESS he chooses to fail these.
* Father of the Codex:
Going to war with the mighty Primarch at their head all battle brothers within 24" automatically pass morale/leadership tests and are fearless and stubborn.
The Sword of Macragge: This is a master crafted relic blade that uses an unstable plasma blade. As such any wounds caused by this weapon gain 2D6 for armour penetration and always wound on a 2+.
23084
Post by: Captain Solon
sorry, doesn't fearless kinda make stubborn redundant?
and again with the overdone stats! they don't need S/T5.
26752
Post by: Corennus
They need to be comparable to a Daemon Prince Solon.
And Fearless doesn't mean stubborn and vice versa.
fearless you AUTO pass leadership and morale tests, but with fearless you lose combat you take wounds thanks to no retreat rule
Stubborn means you can't retreat out of combat.
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Post by: Valkyrie
Corennus wrote:Roboute Guilliman:
300 points
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique)
Unit Type : Infantry
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
7 6 6 5 5 6 5 10 2+
Wargear:
Gauntlets of Ultramar
Gold Halo (3++ Inv Save)
Artificer Armour
Sword of Macragge
Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear
Combat Tactics
Independant Character
Tactical Genius *
Father of the Codex*
Orbital Bombardment
Eternal Warrior
*Tactical Genius:
Guilliman's knowledge of tactics and strategies means he can re-roll all shooting and close combat attacks, as well as automatically passing all Leadership and Morale tests UNLESS he chooses to fail these.
* Father of the Codex:
Going to war with the mighty Primarch at their head all battle brothers within 24" automatically pass morale/leadership tests and are fearless and stubborn.
The Sword of Macragge: This is a master crafted relic blade that uses an unstable plasma blade. As such any wounds caused by this weapon gain 2D6 for armour penetration and always wound on a 2+.
Girlyman did not have the Gauntlets of Ultramar.
Sword of Macragge is a tad overpowered I think.
25983
Post by: Jackal
So why must they be similar stat wise to a daemon prince?
Just makes it stupid IMO.
Angron was promoted into daemonhood for his work, so why would he be promoted to the same stats?
TBH, the strength of a primarch should rely on his ability to alter and work with the army around him, not to be a 1 man army on his own.
S and T do not need to be 6, or even 5 for that matter.
I also dont see why a primarch that was considered a tactition would somehow become a combat monster and sharpshooter for no reason.
Now, angron pre-heresy would be more inclined combat wise, as would russ.
rouboute on the other hand would be the same as a chapter master really, but should have a few rules that would help army-wide, rather than turning him into a marine on 'roids.
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Post by: Corennus
The Gauntlets of Ultramar were fashioned by Guilliman himself I thought...
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Post by: Storm Lord
Corennus wrote:The Gauntlets of Ultramar were fashioned by Guilliman himself I thought...
Actually I do beleive they were taken from a champion of the Ruinous powers. It said in white dwarf a couple of years back, and possibly in the old Space Marine codex. I'll cite precidence when I find it
Daemon Weapon ultramarines anyone?
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Post by: Gwar!
Corennus wrote:Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear
Combat Tactics
Independant Character
Tactical Genius *
Father of the Codex*
Orbital Bombardment
Eternal Warrior
*Tactical Genius:
Guilliman's knowledge of tactics and strategies means he can re-roll all shooting and close combat attacks, as well as automatically passing all Leadership and Morale tests UNLESS he chooses to fail these.
* Father of the Codex:
Going to war with the mighty Primarch at their head all battle brothers within 24" automatically pass morale/leadership tests and are fearless and stubborn.
The Sword of Macragge: This is a master crafted relic blade that uses an unstable plasma blade. As such any wounds caused by this weapon gain 2D6 for armour penetration and always wound on a 2+.
*Tactical Genius:
Guilliman's knowledge of tactics and strategies means he can re-roll all shooting and close combat attacks, as well as automatically passing all Leadership and Morale tests UNLESS he chooses to fail these.
Tactical Genius
All in all, I think Orkeosaurus's version is more fitting to the fluff. Perhaps he could do with a "Whiny B***h" rule, to represent his pouting over not being made Warmaster? 
28837
Post by: Lokirfellheart
Orkeosaurus wrote:Here are my stats for him:
Rowboat Girlyman, Primarch of the Ultramarines and All Around Failure
Points: 11
Composition: Unique
WS2 BS2 S4 T4 W3 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv2+/4+
Wargear:
Artificer Armor
Master-Crafted Relic Blade
Bolt Pistol
Iron Halo
Special Rules:
Idiot
Arrogant
Inferior Tactician
Idiot: Rowboat Girlyman is an idiot, who can't even show up to Terra on time, despite claiming to be logistical genius. An army that contains Girlyman cannot seize the initiative. Further, any player going against an army that contains him will seize the initiative on a 5+.
Arrogant: Girlyman thinks he's some sort of brilliant leader, even when he's getting his own men killed. All models in Girlyman's army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Furthermore, Girlyman and whatever squad he's attached to have the Rage USR.
Inferior Tactician: Girlyman could never compare to Alpharius in terms of leadership ability, tactical awareness, or even sense of style. The Ultramarines look like a bunch of scared, confused children whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion's strategic mastery. Any Space Marine army with Girlyman in it loses And They Shall Know No Fear, and has every model's Leadership reduced by 1 whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion. Also, every model in the Alpha Legion has rending.
Hope it doesn't seem to biased.
Nice rules. Accurate too.
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Post by: Suicidal Cheez
4 wounds on a Primach? So you say Marneus Calgar is of the same importance as Rob?
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Post by: Gwar!
Suicidal Cheez wrote:4 wounds on a Primach? So you say Marneus Calgar is of the same importance as Rob?
No. If anything Calgar should have 0.5 wounds.
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
Wait, what?
So how would .5 wounds work? If he has to take an armor save, he wets himself in fear and curls up into a ball?
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Post by: Che-Vito
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Wait, what?
So how would .5 wounds work? If he has to take an armor save, he wets himself in fear and curls up into a ball?
Roll a d100. On a 2+, he loses the entire 1st Company to Tyranids...nom nom nom
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
Don't forget: you enemy can pay 1 point to make the roll 1+.
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Post by: del'Vhar
Don't forget that on a roll of 3+ the Ultramarines are on the other side of the galaxy and don't take part in the game!
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
That's only if you are fighting Chaos.
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Post by: kaidsin
I think your primach needs some abilities to help his crew more. Maybe some really sweet chapter tactics, inspiring presence, iron will, master tactician or such? I mean he is a great super powered god human creation, but he doesnt win the war by running in the front and taking down the whole enemy force, he should help improve his force.
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Post by: WarWizard91
Ah shucks another thread turned into Ultramarines hate, thank goodness to, 'cause for a second there I almost thought that making fun of them wasn't the cool thing to do anymore.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
The Alpha Legion wins again!
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Post by: reds8n
Whilst the occasional "amusing" post is quite fine and perhaps even desirable there is a time and place for them, and most pertinently in this case, knowing when enough is enough. ta.
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Post by: AvatarForm
Captain Solon wrote:no, sun.
A primarch, as much as we'd like him to be, is still a space marine, not a god.
Same is the emperor.
Their stats, as such should never really exceed 7 in my opinion, and 6 is that of an unearthly hero or master.
Leave it to the other races to have values of 8,9,10. we'll enjoy our weaponspam, and our kewl powers that make our enemies say WTF?
LOL... ur so off target.
Primarchs are to Space Marines as SPace Marines are to Imperial Guardsmen... your primarch wouldnt stand up to a stiff wind.
23084
Post by: Captain Solon
please... never use ur again. thats what you do on facebook [if then]
Primarchs aren't necesarily any stronger then marines, and even in the case of the emperor, I'd really never go above S/T6, and there we're effectively talking about the marine of marines.
The fact is, by giving him S/T5, he's effectively capable of shurging off things that would kill the average marine chapter master in one hit. - why should a primarch be able to shrug off a blast from a lascannon?
Seriously, I don't understand why a man, duely a well armoured, super-cyborginated/implanted man could ever truely be any stronger then his co-counterparts.
Think about it:
You've a 4+ invulnerable save. that represents a half chance of either being wiped out, or being alive, and charging into an opponent.
26752
Post by: Corennus
Um. Primarchs ARE stronger and tougher than marines Solon.......
They're bigger, stronger, more intelligent, faster than a normal space marine.
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Post by: Tim the Biovore
You seem to forget that these guys are Primarchs because they maintain power over ALL the marines in their chapter. If they were just as strong as all other marines, then there would always be a fight for control. And chances are the new Primarch could end up being a Dreadnaught because of their superior strength.
26752
Post by: Corennus
If you want read Tales of Heresy, A Thousand Sons, Fulgrim...............
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Post by: Tim the Biovore
Meh, I'm not known for caring about Marines, it just seems likely.
23084
Post by: Captain Solon
Since when? Space marines don't care about strength, they care about valour and tactics
Ogryn and orks might squabble in such ways, but space marines are to ork as eldar to marine.
Space marines aren't elegant fighters, they'll do what is necesary to get the job done. But, they won't fight over command. part of what makes them so brotherly and tight is that they're willing to sacrifice themselves for their fellow marines.
Well, codex chapters anyway.
Brothers in arms, not arms at brothers.
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
I got one.
Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines
170 points
WS:10 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:5 I:1 A:4 Ld:10 Sv: 2+/4+
Equipment: 2 powerfists, Plasma Pistol, Artificer Armor.
Special Rules:
Stasis: Roboute Guilliman is in a Stasis Field. As long as he is in a Stasis Field, he must be attached to a squad and moves as fast as the squad does. He cannot attack while in the Stasis Field. The Stasis Field is AV 13. It is not effected by anything on the Vehicle pen chart except wrecked and Explodes.
The Primarch Awakens!: If the Primarch's Stasis Field is wrecked, roll a D3, the result of the d3 is how many turns until the Primarch dies. He is allowed to fight, but is not allowed to leave the squad he is attached to. While he is alive, the Ultramarines begin to fight harder, knowing the Primarch fights with them. All Ultramarines can reroll any 1's until the Primarch Dies. If there is an Apothacary within 6 inches of Roboute Guilliman when he is released from stasis, turn the d3 roll into a d6.
The Primarch Explodes!?!: If the Primarch's Stasis Field explodes, he dies instantly. All Ultramarines must take a Leadership test on 3d6. If they pass, they gain the Following rules: Preferred Enemy, Counter Charge, Relentless, Furious Charge. This rule also applies any time Roboute Guilliman dies.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Since reds8 wants me to actually contribute... I think a base strength and toughness of 5 is reasonable, although I would think 6 is going overboard. My understanding is that the Primarchs were larger and more powerful than most marines, a step between the marines and the Emperor himself. Didn't Sanguinius fight a bunch of Bloodthirsters? I know he ended up breaking one of their leaders' backs. Sanguinius may have been an exceptional combatant, but I think that nonetheless sets a pretty high standard for their innate abilities. A Primarch would certainly have Eternal Warrior in any case. They gave it to Lysander, after all. For a serious statline of Girlyman, maybe something like this: WS7 BS5 S5 T5 I6 W5 A5 Ld10 Sv2+/4+ Equipment: Master-crafted Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Master-crafted Plasma Pistol, Iron Halo, Meltabombs, Standard of the Ultramar Special Rules: Unique, Eternal Warrior, Stubborn, Logistical Genius, Father of the Codex Standard of the Ultramar: Guilliman always counts as having done an additional two wounds in close combat, for the purposes of combat resolution. Logistical Genius: Guilliman may add or subtract 1 from all reserve rolls, from any player, so long as he himself is on the field. This ability stacks with any similar abilities. Father of the Codex: All models in an army containing Guilliman that have the Combat Tactics special rule may further chose to automatically pass any moral or pinning check they make. (Note: they may suffer wounds from combat resolution if they chose to do so.) Points: 350? Automatically Appended Next Post: Iur_tae_mont wrote:The Primarch Explodes!?!:
Nevermind, this one is much better than mine!
26014
Post by: goggari
1. WS10 appears only with CC gods such as Avatar, bloodthirsters, etc. That should be a basic thing to know, primarchs are not CC gods, neither is emperor. 
2. Some of the primarchs are to my understanding very dumb, some of them are smart, AND they were bigger than normal marines (that basicly means they are stronger and tougher).
23257
Post by: Praxiss
I woudl think that S5 T6 woudl be fair for a Primarch. Obviously each primarch woudl have different stats and skills.
I would agree that i think Rowboat woudl be more a support character, having a couple of skilsl that affect the entire army, rather than just being a straight shooting or CC machine. some Primarhs woudl excel in CC (Fulgrim & Angron for example) orhter might excel in terms of artillery (Perturabo) or defence (Dorn).
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Post by: sabooftw
I thought Orkeo's rules seemed good but isn't LD7 a little overpowered? Ha disregard that, I play Alpha Legion. I can't be trusted.
31079
Post by: warspawned
The only official GW marker is Angron who's a datasheet in Apocalypse
WS10 BS6 S7 T6 W5 I6 A6 LD10 Sv 3+/4++ 500pts
Big scary Instant Death sword, 2-12 Bloodthirster bodyguards (!), Furious charge, angry roar etc
If we were being serious about this you could say a 'normal' Primarch would be a little less tough (given Angron's Daemonic nature) but may have wargear/rules to compensate.
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Post by: Gwar!
warspawned wrote:The only official GW marker is Angron who's a datasheet in Apocalypse
WS10 BS6 S7 T6 W5 I6 A6 LD10 Sv 3+/4++ 500pts
Big scary Instant Death sword, 2-12 Bloodthirster bodyguards (!), Furious charge, angry roar etc
If we were being serious about this you could say a 'normal' Primarch would be a little less tough (given Angron's Daemonic nature) but may have wargear/rules to compensate.
That isn't a Primarch, that's a Primarch Dæmon Prince...
31079
Post by: warspawned
Who cares? I was putting foward the only stats for a Primarch that have been released, Daemon Prince or not...AND I did comment on his daemonic nature and the fact the other Primarch's may not be as tough... 
1795
Post by: keezus
Damn... I'm late to the party... here's my 2 credits:
Rubout Girlyman
450 points
WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W4 A3 I5 Sv2+/4+I
Eternal Warrior
Iron Halo
Artificer Armor
Digital Lasers
Relic Blade
Powerfist w/ built in Stormbolter with Hellfire Rounds
Legendary Leader of Men: Armies below 2500 points are beneath Girlyman's notice and not worthy of Girlyman's genius leadership. Girlyman can only be included in armies 2500 points and above.
Primarch Slayer: In order to "sever the head, slay the body" and assert his martial dominance over his enemy, Girlyman will unfailingly seek out the enemy commander and fight him in single combat. To represent this, Girlyman and whatever squad he has joined MUST advance at full speed DIRECTLY towards the enemy commander in an effort to engage them. If there is more than one enemy commander, Girlyman will target models the highest costing model in the following preference: 60mm base, 40mm base, 25mm base.
Seize the Glory: To represent Girlyman's favored tactic of using his allies to wear down his enemy before arriving at the last minute to mercifully "save" them, An army led by Girlyman may not use the Drop Pod assault rule. Furthermore, reserve rolls are reduced by one and Girlyman's controller may elect to re-roll any successful reserve checks. All models in an army led by Girlyman are considered to have the Heroic Intervention rule. In any multi-player game in which Girlyman is taking part in, the entire army must be placed in reserve, and no reserve rolls may be made until allied forces have sustained 80% casualties. In this case Girlyman's army also has the outflank universal special rule.
Tactical Awareness: To represent Girlyman's unshakable belief in his own tactical genius, in any game where the Ultramarines are not ahead in scoring by the end of Turn 4, OR if Girlyman is slain in battle - The Ultramarines will "prudently" retire from the battle to "regroup" and "reconnect" with additional elements, and all friendly models are removed from the table, ending the game. In tournament scoring, full points for a massacre are awarded to Girlyman's opponent, and, points for a DRAW are afforded to the Ultramarines, to represent his unyielding self confidence.
Conformity to the Codex: One tactical squad must be taken for every assault squad or devastator squad taken. Squads MUST number 10. Squads which have the option to have a transport MUST have one.
31682
Post by: CommissarCandlestick
Orkeosaurus wrote:Here are my stats for him:
Rowboat Girlyman, Primarch of the Ultramarines and All Around Failure
Points: 11
Composition: Unique
WS2 BS2 S4 T4 W3 I2 A2 Ld7 Sv2+/4+
Wargear:
Artificer Armor
Master-Crafted Relic Blade
Bolt Pistol
Iron Halo
Special Rules:
Idiot
Arrogant
Inferior Tactician
Idiot: Rowboat Girlyman is an idiot, who can't even show up to Terra on time, despite claiming to be logistical genius. An army that contains Girlyman cannot seize the initiative. Further, any player going against an army that contains him will seize the initiative on a 5+.
Arrogant: Girlyman thinks he's some sort of brilliant leader, even when he's getting his own men killed. All models in Girlyman's army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Furthermore, Girlyman and whatever squad he's attached to have the Rage USR.
Inferior Tactician: Girlyman could never compare to Alpharius in terms of leadership ability, tactical awareness, or even sense of style. The Ultramarines look like a bunch of scared, confused children whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion's strategic mastery. Any Space Marine army with Girlyman in it loses And They Shall Know No Fear, and has every model's Leadership reduced by 1 whenever they go up against the Alpha Legion. Also, every model in the Alpha Legion has rending.
Hope it doesn't seem to biased.
I agree.
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Post by: Trilobite
Captain Solon wrote:please... never use ur again. thats what you do on facebook [if then]
Primarchs aren't necesarily any stronger then marines, and even in the case of the emperor, I'd really never go above S/T6, and there we're effectively talking about the marine of marines.
The fact is, by giving him S/T5, he's effectively capable of shurging off things that would kill the average marine chapter master in one hit. - why should a primarch be able to shrug off a blast from a lascannon?
Seriously, I don't understand why a man, duely a well armoured, super-cyborginated/implanted man could ever truely be any stronger then his co-counterparts.
Think about it:
You've a 4+ invulnerable save. that represents a half chance of either being wiped out, or being alive, and charging into an opponent.
Erm. Mephiston is s/T6. He is just a Space marine. I think the EMPEROR OF MANKIND can at least be allowed higher strength than his marines right? Also, fluffwise, primarchs are considered very much to be demi gods. They kill bloodthirsters, wreck titans, smash up avatars etc. Everything about them suggests god. They should at least have the abilities in game to go toe to toe with ctans.
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Post by: Amaya
I like how y'all are giving Primarchs weaker statlines then Mephiston.
30287
Post by: Bromsy
Mephiston is broken and stupid.
Here was my take on Primarchs, if not Gully specifically
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/316620.page
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Post by: Amaya
Mephiston dies like a little girl to massed fire. He's nothing particularly special.
Primarchs should be more like:
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
8 8 6 6 5 7 5 10 2+/4+
There's no reason why Abaddon should be able to take one on.
30287
Post by: Bromsy
He's not broken because he is completely unkillable. He is broken because he rapes any logic and decency the game had left to it.
34168
Post by: Amaya
Yeah, I think 2+ invuls back in 3rd Ed already did that.
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Post by: Gwar!
Amaya wrote:Yeah, I think 2+ invuls back in 3rd Ed already did that.
Huh? Ghazzy has a 2++ save (albeit temporarily), and he is from 4th. 
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Post by: LSWSjr
*Shakes head in sadness* Yet another bunch of folk perpetuating the conspiracy which is the Ultramarines being a 1st Founding Chapter, or as I call it "The Great Blue Lie"
For those too young to have any clue what I'm even suggesting, back in the early days of the Imperium there was a Traitor Legion (13th Legion) that was more or less purged and removed from all records of the Imperium, but during the 32nd Millenium (around the 3rd Founding) after much testing and discussion the still Legion-worth of genetic resources were taken to create many new Chapters, with the primary/first inheritor Chapter being dubbed the Ultramarines, first lead by a warrior named Roboute Gulliman and it was following their victory on Macragge that saw the Ultramarines given governership of the world, which would then be established as the homeworld of the Chapter.
As time past, due in part to the successes of the Ultramarines, all knowledge of the original 13th Legion was buried and all remaining and future data would portray the Ultramarines, lead by a Primarch Gulliman, as that original Legion. Why else do you think so much emphasis is placed on the Ultramarines before any other Chapter?
Source: 1st Edition Ultramarines Index Astartes and supporting conjecture throughout the fluff.
Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr
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Post by: Amaya
Gwar! wrote:Amaya wrote:Yeah, I think 2+ invuls back in 3rd Ed already did that.
Huh? Ghazzy has a 2++ save (albeit temporarily), and he is from 4th.
DE characters and SoB heroines had 2+ invuls in 3rd.
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Post by: Gwar!
Amaya wrote:Gwar! wrote:Amaya wrote:Yeah, I think 2+ invuls back in 3rd Ed already did that.
Huh? Ghazzy has a 2++ save (albeit temporarily), and he is from 4th.
DE characters and SoB heroines had 2+ invuls in 3rd.
They still do. Their codexes haven't been updated yet.
34168
Post by: Amaya
I know. I was stating that stupid broke crap is as old as the game. I didn't bring up Herohammer because I assumed everyone was aware of that.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
LSWSjr wrote:*Shakes head in sadness* Yet another bunch of folk perpetuating the conspiracy which is the Ultramarines being a 1st Founding Chapter, or as I call it "The Great Blue Lie"
For those too young to have any clue what I'm even suggesting, back in the early days of the Imperium there was a Traitor Legion (13th Legion) that was more or less purged and removed from all records of the Imperium, but during the 32nd Millenium (around the 3rd Founding) after much testing and discussion the still Legion-worth of genetic resources were taken to create many new Chapters, with the primary/first inheritor Chapter being dubbed the Ultramarines, first lead by a warrior named Roboute Gulliman and it was following their victory on Macragge that saw the Ultramarines given governership of the world, which would then be established as the homeworld of the Chapter.
As time past, due in part to the successes of the Ultramarines, all knowledge of the original 13th Legion was buried and all remaining and future data would portray the Ultramarines, lead by a Primarch Gulliman, as that original Legion. Why else do you think so much emphasis is placed on the Ultramarines before any other Chapter?
Source: 1st Edition Ultramarines Index Astartes and supporting conjecture throughout the fluff.
Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr
Thank you so much for this. I'm really glad that someone had the nerve to bring some much-needed info to this thread.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
Amaya wrote:There's no reason why Abaddon should be able to take one on.
Have I been dosed, or have I read somewhere that Abaddon is a clone of Horus? 
30287
Post by: Bromsy
No, he's just a badass space marine back from when space marines were less whiny and more awsum, y'know, and like 9,500 years more experienced than any of the loyalist primarchs, and enhanced by the direct powers of the four gods of chaos.
And as far as Mephy, having a human sized model with the same toughness as a carnifex that out masses him like 15 times over is faaar worse for me than a 2++ save. Just my opinion.
As far as the ultramarines... trying to convince people that have been brainwashed into liking them just takes the joy out of hating them. It's like beating a kitten to death, they have no defense, and it just makes me sadder than I was before.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
Bromsy wrote:No, he's just a badass space marine back from when space marines were less whiny and more awsum, y'know, and like 9,500 years more experienced than any of the loyalist primarchs, and enhanced by the direct powers of the four gods of chaos.
And as far as Mephy, having a human sized model with the same toughness as a carnifex that out masses him like 15 times over is faaar worse for me than a 2++ save. Just my opinion.
Don't forget Cassius.
30287
Post by: Bromsy
God damn it
34168
Post by: Amaya
Monster Rain wrote:Amaya wrote:There's no reason why Abaddon should be able to take one on.
Have I been dosed, or have I read somewhere that Abaddon is a clone of Horus?
That's incorrect. Just a rumour.
34208
Post by: cl4nj4def4lcon
I agree, primarchs are stronger than normal marines. That said I'm glad your primarch isnt as ridiculous as some i have seen. I do think he need eternal warrior though, kinda pointless otherwise imo.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
cl4nj4def4lcon wrote:I do think he need eternal warrior though
Rowboat is Dead/In Stasis.
Lol Irony.
In any case, I really do not think Primarchs can be properly done in a D6/0-10 system. If 40k were a D20 system, it would be a bit easier.
34168
Post by: Amaya
I think part of the problem with the 1-10 system is that a lot of the numbers aren't even used. Is there even anything in game with t9/t10?
Most stuff seems bunched up around 3-5.
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Post by: Quintinus
Amaya wrote:I think part of the problem with the 1-10 system is that a lot of the numbers aren't even used. Is there even anything in game with t9/t10?
Most stuff seems bunched up around 3-5.
Blame the new game design. In Rogue Trader and 2nd edition you would see all sorts of different numbers being thrown around.
Heck, take a Human Major Hero in Rogue Trader: Mv4 WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W3 I6 A3 LD9 Int9 Cl9 WP9. If you made a human character like that today, people would say "omg wtf! He's as tough as a space marine! Nooooooooo!!!! He's as good as an Eldar autarch in combat! I am gaking my pants because its not FLUFFY ASDFPAOIDGHAPOIGHAPOEGI"
What's the equivalent of a human major hero these days: An Imperial guard company commander? WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W3 I3 A3 LD9. There's a pretty big difference there.
An Eldar Major Hero: Mv5 WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W3 I9 A3 LD10 INT10 CL10 WP10
An Eldar Autarch: WS6 BS6 S3 T3 W3 I6 A3 LD10
Not to big of a difference in LD, WS, and BS, but note the differences in toughness and initiative! Super big difference there.
For way too long 40k has been having problems with its reined in stats. If it was more like Fantasy it'd be a much better game.
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Post by: Ordo Dakka
Weapon/Ballistic skill aint what it was back then, vlad. It's pretty null to have I9 nowadays, that's why they don't have it. I5 will usually go first, so why go higher? They ARE trying to be true to the fluff.
Human heros are actually comparatively that strong, if you look at how many we get.
For instance, a grey knight from Rogue Trader would dispatch that major hero with a S10 psi-blast from his force weapon that has a built-in bolter.
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Post by: Quintinus
Ordo Dakka wrote:Weapon/Ballistic skill aint what it was back then, vlad. It's pretty null to have I9 nowadays, that's why they don't have it. I5 will usually go first, so why go higher? They ARE trying to be true to the fluff.
It's only because the stats are so lumped together that I5 will go first most of the time, dontchaknow.  Sure I9 isn't very useful nowadays, but it was very useful back in RT when you consider that a lot of models could have I5 compared to now.
Human heros are actually comparatively that strong, if you look at how many we get.
For instance, a grey knight from Rogue Trader would dispatch that major hero with a S10 psi-blast from his force weapon that has a built-in bolter.
Is this a White Dwarf add-on? Cause I know that Grey Knight librarians had access to Mental Blast (Str8, D6 damage, only psychic saves allowed) but that was the best "blast" psionic power that I know of. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though. : ) Of course, then again, psychic saves were a WP test so Human Major Heros with a WP of 9 could easily avoid the attack. : )
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Post by: BearersOfSalvation
Somehow posted to the wrong thread entirely.
26014
Post by: goggari
agree...
But i still state my opinion: Primarchs pretty much cant have statlines over 7 (or 8 with certain ones).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah! Solon, dont whine about saying "ur"
(its lame)
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Post by: Tazz Azrael
Gwar! wrote:Suicidal Cheez wrote:4 wounds on a Primach? So you say Marneus Calgar is of the same importance as Rob?
No. If anything Calgar should have 0.5 wounds.
I agree with the whole .5 wounds thing but i swear the guy is half chicken..... even after he lsot that half wound he just runs around clucking scratching anything in his way until the bloodflow has stopped.... then Khorn breaks out his famous shaken bake recipe
26014
Post by: goggari
oh yeah! when primarchs became deamon princes, they became stronger and tougher...
(even better than emperor himself... )
27220
Post by: NoToTheMan
i hate you all
you can not fathom the amount of hate i'm generating
do you like apple?
from what i remember alpharius died like a little pansy
just because you're upset that your chapter isn't the one coming out in that movie
or the game
Roboute Guilliman 375pts
WS 7
BS 5
S 5
T 6
W 5
I 6
A 4
Ld 10
Sv 2+/3++
Gauntlets of Ultramar (2 powerfists with the shooting profile of 24" S4 AP2 Assault 2)
Armour of Macragge (terminator armour that bestows FNP and has a locator beacon)
Protection of The God Emperor (3+ invulnerable save to Guilliman and a 5+ to his squad)
Writ of the Codex (Devastators and Assault Marines become scoring units, in addition models with Combat Tactics can chose to pas or fail any moral test called upon WITHOUT taking wounds for combat resolution)
"Sever the Head, Slay the Body" (Reroll all fail to hits and wounds against IC and MC)
Eternal Warrior
Counter Attack
how do you like them apples?
12620
Post by: Che-Vito
27220
Post by: NoToTheMan
Che-Vito wrote:One of the most reasonable ones that I have heard so far.
well thank you
i just had a little Noto rage
it happens from time to time
like when people think using a libby with GOI and a combat squad with melta is a good way to pop LR's
12620
Post by: Che-Vito
27220
Post by: NoToTheMan
Che-Vito wrote:NoToTheMan wrote:Che-Vito wrote:One of the most reasonable ones that I have heard so far.
well thank you
i just had a little Noto rage
it happens from time to time
like when people think using a libby with GOI and a combat squad with melta is a good way to pop LR's
Sorry bud, still doesn't mean I think Ultramarines fluff is bland and uninteresting.
it's just the most readily available
if you were raised on fancy gourmet food you entire life and you had some french food you would actually like it because it's different (but who would like the french?)
12620
Post by: Che-Vito
30356
Post by: Jaon
I think ill write one up
Orkeosaurus - 1500 pts
ws 1, bs 1, t 1 str 1 , wounds 1, ld 2, save n/a
havnt decided special rules yet. What you guys think?
13741
Post by: Lord Chiasson
Well firstly I think Primarchs should have way better stats then freakin Abby, regardless who hates space marines, emperor, primarchs , etc.
1. They are only allowed to be used in apoc battles.
Reason: these guys where running around at the head of legions(10,000 and up strong) no way they would be leading small unit unless some special campaign scenario
2. All Primarchs have Primarch Rule Outline(for example look at Age of The Emperor rules, IMO they balanced them fairly good) and of course there few unique rules and tweaks to states to make them diff.
Reason: This way there is at least basic rule set so things dont get too crazy, think of it as a Primarch race or something of the sort
3. Almost all of the Loyalist primarchs are dead(price for being badasses )
I also have a copy of not just Angron Daemon Prince rules but a few others that I believe where published by GW
22289
Post by: EmilCrane
Are you saying that a Necron pariah is stronger than a Primarch? An ork warboss is stronger than a primarch? Iron Hand stracken is as tough and stronger than a primarch?
Yeah... nah bro. A punch from Rogal Dorn knocked Garros senseless, a T4 SM was knocked senseless by a punch not even intended to be that hard. Horus carves his way through plague bearers like their butter. You can tell em that their only as strong as a normal marine. Hell, chaplain cassius is even tougher than Gulliman under your rules.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
EmilCrane wrote:Are you saying that a Necron pariah is stronger than a Primarch? An ork warboss is stronger than a primarch? Iron Hand stracken is as tough and stronger than a primarch?
No.
Just Rowboat.
34870
Post by: Antharius
If i was coming up with a stat line for a primarch then this what it would look like:
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
7 5 5 5 4 6 5 10 2+/4+
but in saying that the stats will be different for all primarchs.
34439
Post by: Formosa
no primarch should be below T6, the reasons:
Fulgrim gets hit by wraithlord, and lives, T4/5 means
instant death.
Corax gets twin lasscannon to the chest, and lives
all primarchs should be monstrous creatures:
Corax rips the sponson off a predator
Nighthaunter tears several marines appart bare handed(OK with armoUred hands)
12265
Post by: Gwar!
And Rowboat Does bugger all during the Crusade, Bugger all during the Heresy, conveniently gets to Terra after all the other Manly legions are whittled to near nothing and the most awesome Primarchs are either dead or seriously battered, manipulates Dorn and his daddy issues to slaughter off most his legion so he becomes even weaker, then writes a book and dies in the first fight he actually tries anything more ambitious than drinking a cup of tea by getting a poison blade to the frakking thoat.
33160
Post by: Iur_tae_mont
Remember kids, Writing Books= Bad. Makes you weak.
25983
Post by: Jackal
Formosa - Dont bring fluff into it.
If that was the case, all marines would have 2 wounds etc and be able to tear through most armies with no problem.
This isnt a book, its the rules, which do need balance.
I think anything over S5 or T5 is pretty pointless.
If your going to make them stronger, use a weapon to do so.
They are not all combat beasts or sharp shooters, each change thier army around them.
Also, if your going by books, marines should use multi-lazors! 
But they dont, as the fluff in a book is just plain dumb and out of place.
Not to mention unbalanced.
17923
Post by: Asherian Command
Lord Chiasson wrote:Well firstly I think Primarchs should have way better stats then freakin Abby, regardless who hates space marines, emperor, primarchs , etc.
1. They are only allowed to be used in apoc battles.
Reason: these guys where running around at the head of legions(10,000 and up strong) no way they would be leading small unit unless some special campaign scenario
2. All Primarchs have Primarch Rule Outline(for example look at Age of The Emperor rules, IMO they balanced them fairly good) and of course there few unique rules and tweaks to states to make them diff.
Reason: This way there is at least basic rule set so things dont get too crazy, think of it as a Primarch race or something of the sort
3. Almost all of the Loyalist primarchs are dead(price for being badasses )
I also have a copy of not just Angron Daemon Prince rules but a few others that I believe where published by GW
Thats false due At least 8 are dead. 4 loyalists and 6 traitors survive
Corax, Vulkan, Leman Russ, Khan, survived, and the traitors that survive are Magnus, Petraubo, The Nurgle guy, Logar, Angron, and Fulgrim.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
And just to edumacate people:
Traitors are all Daemon Princes, Corax and Vulkan are missing, Russ is in the EoT and Khan is in the Webway.
29374
Post by: syanticraven
Captain Solon wrote:
The Emperors hand is a master crafted relic blade. it grants a single parry save, in close combat per turn. this means if he is hit, roll a D6 and ignore this attack. cannot be taken against units with a higher I then him, and is granted against the most powerful attack damage he takes.
I cannot for the life of me bring myself to read the whole thread so forgive me if someone has already mentioned this. So all you have to do is roll a d6 and that's it? Sounds pretty fething amazing if you ask me. feth the 1 always fails rule I will make a rule that does not matter what the number you get, even if it is a score of 7 on one dice! I love reading these, Im not hating or anything but re read the post before you hit submit ma man. Also lovely discussion going on in the last page is see.
34439
Post by: Formosa
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Formosa - Dont bring fluff into it. If that was the case, all marines would have 2 wounds etc and be able to tear through most armies with no problem. This isnt a book, its the rules, which do need balance. I think anything over S5 or T5 is pretty pointless. If your going to make them stronger, use a weapon to do so. They are not all combat beasts or sharp shooters, each change thier army around them. Also, if your going by books, marines should use multi-lazors! But they dont, as the fluff in a book is just plain dumb and out of place. Not to mention unbalanced.
yes i will bring fluff into it, as it is pretty much all we have to go on, in no way are my sugestions OP I said T6, NOT eternal warrior, i backed up my statement with examples of why they should have T6 I said monstrous creature NOT str9000!!!! monstrous creature, I do agree str5 is about right though for gullyman. I do however totally disagree that useing a weapon to make them stronger is a good idea, I am against alot of special rules cluttering up the character my personal take on a Average primarch (as a starting point, raise or lower stats depending on primarch) WS BS S T W I A LD SV 7 5 5 6 4 6 5 10 3+/4++ special rules: monstrous, fearless "insert unique primarch power here" thats it, now my justification A primarch is better than a space marine chapter master in CQC in most if not all cases (Ref, lucifer blacks and Alpharius) A primarch i would say is pretty much equal to a chapter master in shooting, but only because of the limitations of the 1-10 system A primarch is stronger than a chapter master in every sense (ref, any fluff regarding the primarchs) A primarch can most definatly take more punishment than a chapter master, i cannot however justify 5 wounds A primarch is also faster then a chapter master in most if not all cases A primarch can dish out alot more dammage than a chapter master hence 5 attacks the 3+ sv is because power armour is power armour, i assume certain primarchs would have articifer armour, others wouldnt (ref, Alpharius)
30287
Post by: Bromsy
Just because Corax, Vulcan, Khan, and Russ aren't confirmed dead doesn't mean they aren't.
34439
Post by: Formosa
khan has to be dead or at least beyond the ability to fight, near 10k years in the webway without supplies or reinforcements mead either KIA or POW, i hope its KIA, 10k years at the hands of the Dark Eldar would break even a primarch
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Formosa wrote:khan has to be dead or at least beyond the ability to fight, near 10k years in the webway without supplies or reinforcements mead either KIA or POW, i hope its KIA, 10k years at the hands of the Dark Eldar would break even a primarch
Who says he has no supplies? If the DE can figure out how to leave the Webway to get them so can he.
34439
Post by: Formosa
thats a big jump in logic, but i concede its possible, however if he had we would know, a primarch wouldn't go unnoticed for long.
a more interesting question is what happened to vulkan?
Ravens flight mildly suggests he is dead, but Corax had quit the field so it was conjecture.
this is what kept me in the hobby for 21 years, i bloody love it lol
29374
Post by: syanticraven
they sure know how to spin a good story.
Ignoring the mile high pile of waste some people call 'books'.
32016
Post by: hemingway
Ribbit "Kermie" Gilligan
ws bs s t w i a ld sv
5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3+/5++
Wargear:
Blunderbusses of Ultramar:
Upgraded (considerably) tens of thousands of years after the Horus Heresy, Ribbit's Blunderbusses of Ultramar found their way to the tech-priests of Mars in almost pristine condition, since Ribbit never actually fired them.
They count as twin-linked shotguns.
Shiny-Box
Gilligan's ordinary, everyday, regular power armor is so pretty-shiny from its storage that there is a chance it will glint in the eyes of enemy shooters and cause their aim to falter. Gilligan receives a 5+ invulnerable save in addition to his normal power armor save.
Special Rules
"I'll call my dad!"
Gilligan has considerable abilities due to his being a primarch, however, compared to other primarchs, he kind of sucks. His mediocrity is reflected in his statline.
"...Well maybe I *WON'T*"
At the start of the game, before deployment, but after the mission is chosen, roll 2d6. On a roll of 2, Ribbit sulks back on Terra. He does not appear for the whole game, and does not count towards the Victory Points total. On a roll of 12, he shows up slobbering drunk, with an Initiative value of 1, increased toughness value (to 6) and the "Fearless" special rule. All wounds dealt in close combat by drunken Ribbit ignore armor saves on a d6 roll of 6. If drunken Ribbit assaults a tank, he takes a wound for every attack he makes ("Ribbit. RIBBIT. You're PUNCHING. A TANK"). Normal armor saves are allowed. If any infantry unit (friend or foe) is within 6" of Ribbit at the start of your turn, roll a d6. If a 6 is rolled, Ribbit has to assault them.
"So, quote master strategist, unquote"
Ribbit's ability to manipulate the enemy is well known. At the start of your shooting phase, Ribbit may roll 2d6. If he rolls under his own unmodified leadership, he is able to taunt any unit in the game within 18", regardless of whether they are in combat or not(friend or foe) by calling their mother a bulldyke and the single worst lay in the forty-first millenium. Both Ribbit and the enemy unit are removed from play as Ribbit flees the battlefield and the unit follows him. Neither count towards victory points. This ability may only be used once per game, and if failed, may not be used again. Your opponent has the opportunity to negate this ability by singing, in full, the theme to gilligan's island, while you film, and later put on youtube. He has to really, really try hard. If he doesn't put in maximum effort (you should bring him a tilly hat), the unit is removed and you delete the video from your camera.
14640
Post by: SonofTerra
How does time pass in the webway though? For all we know the Khan and Russ may have only experienced as little as a few years because of the way time flows in the warp (assuming the webway is similar to the warp of course)
34439
Post by: Formosa
I thought the same, but cannot remember anything that sugests such a thing (doesn't mean the fluff dont exist, i just cant remember it)
But anyway, were getting OT, post a new thread methink.
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