Dunno if I'm making this post just to irritate old-hands or not, but I for one believe that the "bring back the Squats" camp are quite over-represented... literally a small group screaming at the top of their lungs

So I've made this poll, Dakka, so that the silent (and obvious) majority might be able to express their solidarity with the quite sensible decision to rid 40k of the Squats.

-They looked awful.
-The fluff is a tad ridiculous.
-They just weren't popular enough to justify the costs.
-They didn't fit in.

My points.

Be happy with the Demiurg, y'all.

Why are people voting no. You idiots!


EDIT: This was entirely a joke intended to nod towards the consensus that squats are the unwanted nerdy fat kid that hangs around your group at school. I apologize for causing offence if it did.

If someone disagrees with your opinion it generally doesn't make them or you an idiot

I don't really like them, but I'm still voting no because they would have kept some more diversity in the game rather than all the marine codices. They said at the time the reason they were removed was because an army with lots of vehicles doesn't fit in with 40k. While it was probably true back then the IG have probably taken over the role that the Squats seemed to have had back then. Probably why counts as Squats use the IG codex so much.

Jaon wrote:Why are people voting no. You idiots!

To be "hip" and "in", possibly?

I think the Squats were a stupid army that have no place in the grimdark that 40k has become. As far as I am concerned even at their best they were a bit of a joke army.

You people obviously can't handel the awsomeness that is dwarves in space.

Just because you dont like them doesnt meen that they werent a fun competitave army.


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Also, this post is stupid.

Jaon wrote:Why are people voting no. You idiots!

Because I don't believe GW should 'squat' any army. I miss my Genestealer Cult, my Lost and the Damned, etc etc........

GW should never "Squat" a non Space Marine Army.

There's enough Space Marine Codices to where I don't think anyone would be raging on the Internet if a Space Marine Codex got "Squatted".

I hated them. Voted so.

Yay for Dwarves in Space

miserable beardy old gits of the universe unite!
To boldy grump where no bald has boldly grumped before!

don_mondo wrote:

Jaon wrote:Why are people voting no. You idiots!

Because I don't believe GW should 'squat' any army. I miss my Genestealer Cult, my Lost and the Damned, etc etc........

I think that Squats should have been squatted. Genestealer cults and Lost and the Dammed on the other hand were great armies that should have been kept on.

I don't mind Squats. They could have been done more seriously if they were actually given a CHANCE. Second edition as a whole wasn't entirely serious.

Yeah but you are a SOB Ordo
you hate anything Xenos

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Yeah but you are a SOB Ordo
you hate any mutant sub-human "race"

Fixed

Squats had potential.

Demiurg have similar potential, I hope GW doesn't ignore it this time.

And what part of second edition was serious at all? Squats were a joke, but so was everything else.

Now we just have the Orks.

Weren't Demiurg an attempt to reboot the Squats?

Space Dwarves, but of a different flavor.

The Squats were the drinkin' bruiser dwarves. The Demiurg are the skilled craftsmen dwarves.

omnom'd? I am unfamilar with this term omnom'd.

Yak9UT wrote:omnom'd? I am unfamilar with this term omnom'd.

It means "eaten" in baby talk

People can hate on the Squats if they wish. I have had mine since 2nd ed. I played them in tournies with a great deal of success.
Reasons I have heard for them being deleted were many: another army did the same better, creative staff drew a blank, sculptors were not being creative, Andy Chambers couldn't beat them....

Ok Space Wolves did the "vikings in space" thing better, Maybe. Another direction could have been taken.... Feudal Japan maybe. They had the Ancestor worship part already.
Fact is GW let some people down to make even sillier armies. How many Dark Eldar player do you really see on a regular basis... even in their heyday? One in twenty? One in fifty? One in one hundred? Legoburner's poll on first armies shows 22 out of 696.. that 11 out of @350 or 1 out of 32 that post here.
In the same poll Squats got 9 out of 696 or @1 out of 77. Of course, these figures are skewed by the fact that Squats have not had any support since 2nd ed and were effectively fully eliminated by 4th ed.
People will stand behind some other "Fringe" armies, some that didn't even poll as well as Squats..... Chaos Deamons, Witch Hunters, Stealer Cults, Mechanicus, Lost and Damned, Inquisition....
But hey.... Those are "Popular" armies..... right?

Fixed that for you wrote:Dunno if I'm making this post just to irritate old-hands or not, but I for one believe that the "bring back the Dark Eldar" camp are quite over-represented... literally a small group screaming at the top of their lungs

So I've made this poll, Dakka, so that the silent (and obvious) majority might be able to express their solidarity with the quite sensible decision to rid 40k of the Dark Eldar.

-They looked awful.
-The fluff is a tad ridiculous.
-They just weren't popular enough to justify the costs.
-They didn't fit in.

My points.

Be happy with the Demiurg, y'all.

See how easy that is? The poll itself is not very telling really, because of the fact that it lumps together sets of people what would be worth distinguishing:

Yes - Man wearing helmet and water wings: "SPESH MURREEENS!!! DURP DE DURP"
Yes - "While I feel as though six Space Marine factions needing to be represented by their own codex is very excessive, Space Dwarves are too over the top."
No - "We have space elves, space drow, space mind flayers, space vampires, and space vikings, why not have space Dwarves?"

What I'm trying to say, first and foremost, is, how many of the people who voted yes did so because they're frothing at the mouth marine crazy and would say so with regards to ANY Xenos, and how many of them did it because they genuinely disliked the Squats for whatever reason?

Secondly, why squat anyone? As little material as GW puts out, and with their consistent profit-reporting, you'd think they'd be able to expand, hire a few new developers... you know what, see the generic "GW codex updates" rants in 40k discussions every other week.

Finally, and to draw attention back to my above quote, people hate because they can. If it was "army that needs/needed to be squatted the most:" And you listed ALL the armies, I bet you'd probably see more Space Marine hate that you would Squat hate.

Personally, I think that the Tau are silly and don't need to be in the 40k universe. Everything else is obviously Fantasy in Space. We have these Space Paladins protecting mankind with their 'magic' swords and their 'artificer' armor. We have the elves, both good and evil, with their 'magic'. Why do we need Gundam?

The Epic concept of Squats was great. What's not to love about an off-shoot of the human race that believes it's a good thing to develop new technology; rather than stagnating.

It was the 40k implementation that left a bit to be desired. It's nothing someone new couldn't work their way around.

I liked squats in epic,

however the 40k implementation was just slow midget bikers with beards. Honestly the army was just IG that moved slower and had bikes.

I am pretty sure the reason they were scrapped were:

a.) The entire army was comical, it wasn't just a unit or two that had random rules tables like orks which people still consider clowns. The entire backstory of the army was basically a midget biker bar joke.

b.) Movement distance has been removed. Previously eldar moved fast, and everything else about the same, and squats were slower. Now movement is gone and no one would want to play an army that was all slow and purposeful in a game about manuevering. And yes they would have to use slow and purposeful now that they cant say "moves 3"

c.) The army was redundant. It had access to archeotech special weapons, but the imperium still has those. It had bikers, but the imperium still has those. The only thing unique about the army was that it had different psyker powers, and it was easier to get archeotech weapons on characters as opposed to maybe having 1 or 2 in an army. Im talking conversion beamers and graivton guns. So basically the army is just IG with space marine bikes, and all the special characters have access to special guns. Most players just nullified the fact the army was slow by taking just bikes. Oh and they had "terminators" the short fat exo armor guys that looked like they were from a bad wizard of oz sequel. Honestly the army was just IG+Space marine allies, or the other way around with slow movement for foot troops.

endtransmission wrote:The Epic concept of Squats was great. What's not to love about an off-shoot of the human race that believes it's a good thing to develop new technology; rather than stagnating.

It was the 40k implementation that left a bit to be desired. It's nothing someone new couldn't work their way around.

This is exactly what I was going to say. Squats strongholds were brilliant in Epic 2nd edition, and they never caught up to that in 40k.

Jack

My concept of Dwarves in the Warhammer worlds is a seperate species. ie humanoid, but definitely non human.

A couple of references above suggest that they are a su-species?

Can someone clarify please?

I dont dislike squats. I dislike people who keep bringing them up.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:My concept of Dwarves in the Warhammer worlds is a seperate species. ie humanoid, but definitely non human.

A couple of references above suggest that they are a su-species?

Can someone clarify please?

Like Ogryns or Ratlings, they were a subspecies that evolved on a unique planet over many generations (twenty thousand years is a short time to do this, but still on the verge of believability, scientifically speaking). In the case of Squats, it was a high-gravity mining planet that was cut off from the Imperium for an extended amount of time.


Personally, I too would prefer a xeno race.

Thanks for the background Melissa.

Treading carefully hoping to avoid a minefield, a xenos race would have been more acceptible, socially speaking* perhaps. A reason for them going bye-byes?

(*trying to avoid the term PC )

I like the Squats. Having them eaten by the nids was dumb. Half-way re-imagining them as the Demiurg is even dumber. The Squat models were no worse than other models contemporary with them. Saying they don't "fit" is pretty ludicrous and could be as easily applied to Tau or even Eldar (really, anything that's not a Space Marine). They also played an important role in the early years of the Great Crusade.

Yeh it would have made more sense if they were Xeno. I also think they could have done a better job than Tyranids out of no where. Space Marines would have been all over an important Imperial resource like that. I mean look at Armageddon, why is that planet important again?

Squats have the problem that they came from a different era of 40k. They are hard to take seriously now - their name conjures bathroom jokes ("Man, I ate at that cheap Mexican place and had the squats all weekend"), and their look and feel is like the 'midget biker joke'. Their background is stuck back in the old 'rip off fantasy' era, they're pretty much generic fantasy dwarves in space, while everyone else has either moved on and has unique fluff or vanished. Their position as 'allied with the imperium but separate and has lots of tech' has been taken over by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Their army doesn't bring anything unique to the table, at best their army would be like 'guardsmen shooting plus some bikes with marines in slow terminator armor for leaders'.

I think bringing back squats would be a bad idea, even naming them is a problem. By the time you gave them a name that doesn't invite snickering, more unique background, gave them a place that's not 'short adeptus mechanicus clones that ride bikes and drink a lot', something interesting to do on the field, an updated look, and everything else to bring them into 40k, you'd have nothing like the original squats. Now 'space dwarves' does have some promise, if they took the Demiurg and made them into a list they could make something cool that fits into modern 40k without looking goofy, it's just that they'd be very little like the original squats.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:My concept of Dwarves in the Warhammer worlds is a seperate species. ie humanoid, but definitely non human.A couple of references above suggest that they are a sub-species? Can someone clarify please?

40k squats (the original model in 1st and 2nd edition) were the descendants of humans who lived on and/or were bioengineered to live on high gravity worlds, they're abhumans like ratlings and ogryns not xenos. The Demiurg (new race that sometimes works with the Tau) are probably not related to humans at all, though I don't think that's definite.

- Squats are a ripoff of fantasy dwarves/dwarfs: your point? (ahem, Eldar)

- Squats have a silly name: granted but so what? (Eldar v. Dark Eldar, the names of all SM Chapters, etc)

- Squats make more sense as xenos: why? in every respect but height, they're humans

- Squats as an army are redundant: let's see here, would you rather play Space Marines? Dark Angels? Space Wolves? Black Templars? Blood Angels? Grey Templars? Chaos Space Marines?

- Squats as a fluff concept are redundant: saying they overlap with Ad Mech is pretty lame; as has already been pointed out, Squats not only scoff at notions of the Omnissiah (they worshipped their ancestors like most dwarves/dwarfs, which could be given very cool twists in a scifi setting), but they also advocate technological innovation

Should they have their own army? I don't know. A lot has changed in 40k since they last had one. But they shouldn't have been "squatted."

I started 40k after squats had been 'squatted'. I was excited when I first saw models for them. I was disappointed when I learned they no longer were supported.

I would have picked them as my starter army.

Squats were pretty awesome in Epic, lots and lots of over-engineered vehicles and vicious artillery. I never thought they got a fair shake

Voted no not because I like squats but I think removing an army that people enjoy playing and have spent money on is wrong. If they are loosing money with them and want to end it just stop any new releases and stop selling the models. They hould at least keep them legal for people who already own them.

Manchu wrote:(really, anything that's not a Space Marine).

One could argue that Space Marines don't really fit either, though with the amount of fluff out there for them it obviously varies from piece to piece. GW tries hard to make them "good guys" while maintaining that there are no "good guys" in 40k, because it helps increase sales.

So basically Marines, in some incarnations, aren't really grimdark enough for 40k.

I think they could make Squats grimdark enough.

They look they do not fit in , seriously squats what kind of name is that!

I've read more ridiculous Chapter names, and some of them were even GW-named chapters from White Dwarf.

blood reaper wrote:They look they do not fit in , seriously squats what kind of name is that!

I swear, blood reaper, every time you open your mouth (or fingers in this case, I suppose) I gain a little bit of faith in the American education system.

Because maybe it's comparatively not that bad after all.

Squats have been gone for so long I am amazed that people still remember them. I think, if they are were to bring them back, they would need such a re-working to fit the new fluff that they would no longer be Squats (at least not how those of us old hands remember them). I think they should run with the Demiurg (Sp?) and leave the Squats in the past with the Exodites, Imperial Guard jetbikes, battle robots, feral orks etc.

I utterly and completely despise the squats because I miss the Zoats.

Oh, here's something I hadn't thought about-- given that the 'nids ate the squats, what exactly did they produce out of them?

Melissia wrote:One could argue that Space Marines don't really fit either

I dunno. I'm surprised they didn't just call the game "Space Marine."


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Melissia wrote:I've read more ridiculous Chapter names, and some of them were even GW-named chapters from White Dwarf.

All of the SM Chapters have ridiculous names. It's just that you get used to them. When I first got into 40k, I remember thinking "Space wolves? That's immensely slowed. Why not Space Lions or Space Sharks?" (That was before I knew there actually were Space Sharks, of course.) But now I think Space Wolves is one of the better names. You just get used to things.

Melissia wrote:Oh, here's something I hadn't thought about-- given that the 'nids ate the squats, what exactly did they produce out of them?

Hormagaunts.

Better yet.

Rippers.

Short, brutish, and nasty.

Rippers fit perfectly. I love it.

SaintHazard wrote:Short, brutish, and nasty.

You have that out of order.

The problem is most of us didn't play in 2nd edition, and only know about the squats from other people. And Space Dwarves appeal to some people I guess. But we don't know about the insane fluff, we don't know about the horrible lead models.

All we know is a company let some people down, and that makes us angry.

Holy hell, Starbomber... your signature just triggered a shocking moment of clarity. The kind you need a cigarette or a cold shower after.

Two of the other armies in the 40k universe who love speed - the Blood Angels and the Saim-Hann Eldar - are able to move so damn fast because they're painted red.

SaintHazard wrote:Holy hell, Starbomber... your signature just triggered a shocking moment of clarity. The kind you need a cigarette or a cold shower after.

Two of the other armies in the 40k universe who love speed - the Blood Angels and the Saim-Hann Eldar - are able to move so damn fast because they're painted red.

Wait, wait. Things just got interesting.

Now we just need to figure out how the hell the Dark Eldar do it.

Drugs.

Probably sold to them by Squats.

How about Red Dwarves
or is that contrary to their slow poke stereotype?

I vote for Dark Squats or Chaos Squats if you prefer!

Catyrpelius wrote:I vote for Dark Squats or Chaos Squats if you prefer!

Huh?

I think my name shows my allegiance here.

First and possibly separately.....Epic squats ruled. No arguments, no questions. Sadly mega machines and massed bike charges didn't transfer easily into 40K at that time

Second......40K squats (or should that be RT squats) kicked ass (as a brilliant space opera concept). RT was/is a very different game to 5th and I believe many people give their opinions about squats without having ever really experienced them in their correct setting. Sure they may have bought or "liberated" an electronic copy of the compendium and read their stats, rules and background; but many people arguing over them weren't even conceived let alone playing with them at the time.

I started gaming in '88, I've played GW games since and RT has not been beaten IMO (although I'm quite enjoying my recent excursions into 5th)...... as long as you had the right attitude and resources (endless time, playing space, mature players and an ultra patient GM/wife.) to allow RT to bloom into the excellent game it was/is.

As a die hard squat player (epic, RT and coming soon(ish) 5th ed) in RT 40K the squats weren't that great. They were slow and difficult to use. You had to be a good tactical player to get the most out of them. But I loved them. They got me into playing RT. They had an excellent range of units and variety and nearly everything in RT could be countered, tweaking was encouraged and equipment was often universally available. I never moved to 2nd ed. as I disliked the direction it seemed to be taking. I still play RT and because of this my stunty erstwhile companions were never 'squatted' (although my wife bought me a load of tyranids and a bottle of ketchup last christmas).

I've converted my 20yr old force to 5th ed. so I can spend more time with them and people who weren't born/playing in the 'old days' can experience them. I took a sentinel (my avatar) into a GW near me and a tiny red haired kid exclaimed "wow! how cool is that? a dwarf in a sentinel." This made me feel old yet happy. I don't want a 5th ed codex or a return of the models (which varied between lovely and blinking awful), sadly their day in GW's current game is gone.

As a race the squats are gone, but there will always be pockets of resistance, small insular brotherhoods clinging to a mercenary lifestyle somewhere in the grimdark. Do not fear them, embrace them. Then check your pockets and run. But not too fast........

oh and the ing Demiurg. With a stick.

"Dances with Squats" as a username? A challenger appears!

"Morathi's Darkest Sin" finally has competition for coolest username on Dakka.

Dances with Squats

isn't that how the Cossacks do it?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Dances with Squats

isn't that how the Cossacks do it?

You win funniest, by Jove, for today at least.

Were Squats even any good? They look ridiculous for a start and they wouldn't be popular enough to bring back anyway.

Manchu wrote:- Squats are a ripoff of fantasy dwarves/dwarfs: your point? (ahem, Eldar)

My point is, Eldar are no longer simply fantasy elves with spaceships. The Webway, Spirit Stones, Aspect Warrior paths, and a host of other things are not just simple rips from fantasy to 40k. Squat fluff hasn't been developed like that, their clan structure, living in mountain fortresses, ancestor worship, and so on come right from fantasy.

- Squats have a silly name: granted but so what? (Eldar v. Dark Eldar, the names of all SM Chapters, etc)

What do you mean so what? 'Squat' is a funny sounding word with unfortunate connotations. In my experience, the first response to people hearing of them is to snicker over the name. I don't know of any other armies that have this problem, aside from obscure Space Marine chapters that GW doesn't bring up any more (Rainbow Warriors). You may not like the "Space Wolves", and may think that "Dark Eldar" shows a lack of creativity, but I've never heard someone snickering about their name when they first heard it.

- Squats as an army are redundant: let's see here, would you rather play Space Marines? Dark Angels? Space Wolves? Black Templars? Blood Angels? Grey Templars? Chaos Space Marines?

Let's see here, your solution is to add 'short marines with potbellied terminator armor'? The fact that there are lots of marine codexes has nothing to do with whether a squat codex would be a good idea, it's irrelevant. It would only make sense if the choice was between 'another marine codex' and 'a squat codex', which is not what the poll says and certainly wasn't what I was saying.

Aside from the proliferation of marine chapters (who IMO should really just have two main variants, the 'pretty normal' marines and the 'raging melee lunatics'), each army has a really distinct playstyle now, sometimes several. The game has come a long way from the days when Imperials, Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids all used the same equipment. What unique aspects were there to the old Squat army in 40k that you think should be brought forward - bikes, lasguns, artillery, and slow terminator armor don't seem all that compelling to me?

- Squats as a fluff concept are redundant: saying they overlap with Ad Mech is pretty lame; as has already been pointed out, Squats not only scoff at notions of the Omnissiah (they worshipped their ancestors like most dwarves/dwarfs, which could be given very cool twists in a scifi setting), but they also advocate technological innovation

Saying a valid point is pretty lame is pretty lame itself - the squats can't come back in their old position within the Imperium, the AM took it over. Either GW would have to scrap a lot of what's been developed for the AM, which they're not going to do, or they'd need a completely new setup for how the squats relate to the Imperium.

The Adeptus Mechanicus are allied to and incorporated with the Imperium but have their own religion and basically seperate government, and provide high technology and maintain equipment the squats were... what the AM have become now. It doesn't matter that some details about the squats are different (like what their religion is), the fact is that their old position in the Imperium has been taken over by the AM.

Should they have their own army? I don't know. A lot has changed in 40k since they last had one. But they shouldn't have been "squatted."

They needed to be 'squatted'. Huge chunks of the squat background would need to be completely changed to fit them into 40k now, and the name would need to change to avoid embarassment for players and to encourage sales. Trying to modernize the squats to fit into current 40k and rationalize it to fit back with 20-year-old fluff would just alienate the 'Squats4Ever' diehards, who aren't going to be happy with all the changes while constraining the new army.

Far better IMO to let old squats remain eaten and make a completely new Army of some kind of space dwarf that isn't constrained by trying to fit the old stuff. Take the good stuff from squats like the epic war engines, throw in some callbacks to the old stuff and in-jokes based on it, then use the fresh start to give them their own place in 40k. Well-done space dwarves would be nice, I just don't see any reason to tie it to the old squats.

Two words: Chaos Squats.

Awwww, yeah.

I'm just going to respond in red.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Manchu wrote:- Squats are a ripoff of fantasy dwarves/dwarfs: your point? (ahem, Eldar)

My point is, Eldar are no longer simply fantasy elves with spaceships. The Webway, Spirit Stones, Aspect Warrior paths, and a host of other things are not just simple rips from fantasy to 40k. Squat fluff hasn't been developed like that, their clan structure, living in mountain fortresses, ancestor worship, and so on come right from fantasy.

Quite simply, squats do not have as much development as Eldar. But if you read more about Elves in WHFB you may find they are not so different from Eldar after all.

- Squats have a silly name: granted but so what? (Eldar v. Dark Eldar, the names of all SM Chapters, etc)

What do you mean so what? 'Squat' is a funny sounding word with unfortunate connotations. In my experience, the first response to people hearing of them is to snicker over the name. I don't know of any other armies that have this problem, aside from obscure Space Marine chapters that GW doesn't bring up any more (Rainbow Warriors). You may not like the "Space Wolves", and may think that "Dark Eldar" shows a lack of creativity, but I've never heard someone snickering about their name when they first heard it.

I have seen people snicker at the name Space Wolves when I've told them about it. Ultramarines, too. Squat is a silly word but you get used to it. Just like the word "dwarf."

- Squats as an army are redundant: let's see here, would you rather play Space Marines? Dark Angels? Space Wolves? Black Templars? Blood Angels? Grey Templars? Chaos Space Marines?

Let's see here, your solution is to add 'short marines with potbellied terminator armor'? The fact that there are lots of marine codexes has nothing to do with whether a squat codex would be a good idea, it's irrelevant. It would only make sense if the choice was between 'another marine codex' and 'a squat codex', which is not what the poll says and certainly wasn't what I was saying.

Aside from the proliferation of marine chapters (who IMO should really just have two main variants, the 'pretty normal' marines and the 'raging melee lunatics'), each army has a really distinct playstyle now, sometimes several. The game has come a long way from the days when Imperials, Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids all used the same equipment. What unique aspects were there to the old Squat army in 40k that you think should be brought forward - bikes, lasguns, artillery, and slow terminator armor don't seem all that compelling to me?

So you are comparing an RT army against 5th edition ones? That's not a discussion I'm willing to indulge. As a 5th edition army, Squats would most likely be designed with a unique play style. And even if they weren't that would not be a problem with GW. As we can see from the proliferation of Marine codices, unique play style isn't a requirement to have a codex.

- Squats as a fluff concept are redundant: saying they overlap with Ad Mech is pretty lame; as has already been pointed out, Squats not only scoff at notions of the Omnissiah (they worshipped their ancestors like most dwarves/dwarfs, which could be given very cool twists in a scifi setting), but they also advocate technological innovation

Saying a valid point is pretty lame is pretty lame itself - the squats can't come back in their old position within the Imperium, the AM took it over. Either GW would have to scrap a lot of what's been developed for the AM, which they're not going to do, or they'd need a completely new setup for how the squats relate to the Imperium.

Saying a lame point is lame isn't lame at all. Squats and Ad Mech do not overlap. If you think they do, then you do not know enough about Squats or Ad Mech or both.

The Adeptus Mechanicus are allied to and incorporated with the Imperium but have their own religion and basically seperate government, and provide high technology and maintain equipment the squats were... what the AM have become now. It doesn't matter that some details about the squats are different (like what their religion is), the fact is that their old position in the Imperium has been taken over by the AM.

I'd say that you know enough about Ad Mech. Time to learn more about Squats.

Should they have their own army? I don't know. A lot has changed in 40k since they last had one. But they shouldn't have been "squatted."

BTW, the question is not "should the Squarts be brought back?" but rather "Are you glad they were eliminated?"

I want squats back too...and make their focus be on thunderhammers.

Low initiative...high toughness...high strength.

I don't personally want to play them because space dwarves is not my flavor...but I would love to see it on a board...

I only started collecting Squats because because my friend threw in a squad of 5 with some marines I bought off him. I didn't really care much for squats before that... In fact I think I remember telling him he could keep them.

But Squats were one of those armies like Orks that grow on you. At first you hate them cause they are not Space Marines. but filthy aliens who need to be purged. But after a while you come around, and start to see all the charm and character.

Orks stop looking like evil bad guys, and become Lovable brutes, who just wanna build crazy contraptions, and grow squigs and fungus, and enjoy a good fight.

Squats had their charm too. They actually became my favourite army, and were very rewarding to collect and paint and also very competitive to play with. They had super high leadership, on a par with marines and orks in CC, but relatively cheap like guard. The Ancestor Lord was a psychic beast. And they had cool wargear left over from the dark age of technology. Like exo armour suites (squat terminators). And no one who ever witnessed the much coveted Gravitation Gun in the hands of a BS6 squat engineer will ever forget it. Another thing I liked about squats was they had a long running feud with the Orks, and actually made use of the Hatred rule (preferred enemy), which was otherwise never seen except I think on Tycho and sometimes randomly with madboyz. The only downside was they had 3 inch movement, which was its own unique challenge.

I was sorry to see them go, but even more sorry that they never got a proper codex book or special characters. The thing that pissed me off the most is that someone (Jervis I think) actually took the time to write a white dwarf article about playing squats as 'counts as orks' when in the same amount of time he could have just made some basic rules for them (Like they did for Necrons in 2nd edition) or updated the old rules and they would have been official again.

Trying to remove them from history was a really weird and heavy handed thing to do. I don't think they will ever go away, They are just too deeply engrained in 40k history, and it makes me happy that new players take an interest in them. Hopefully one day they will be brought back and expanded upon.

I would like to see one Space Dwarf standing on the shoulders of another.

wearing power armour.


Dancing with a SoB like that scene in Snow White.
Hmmm
So that's where you got the moniker from Dancing With Squats!

Manchu wrote:I have seen people snicker at the name Space Wolves when I've told them about it. Ultramarines, too. Squat is a silly word but you get used to it. Just like the word "dwarf."

No, I don't get used to it, I thought it was silly back in 1991, and I think it's silly now. This discussion demonstrates why I think bringing squats back would be a bad idea - I'd bet good money that GW wouldn't use a name that goofy now, but the old diehards squat fans who'd be interested in a squat list would hate them changing it. Way better to just start over and make something new.

So you are comparing an RT army against 5th edition ones? That's not a discussion I'm willing to indulge. As a 5th edition army, Squats would most likely be designed with a unique play style. And even if they weren't that would not be a problem with GW. As we can see from the proliferation of Marine codices, unique play style isn't a requirement to have a codex.

So you don't want to talk about squats? They're a RT army (with a temporary 2nd ed list), and they're what the thread is about. They don't have a 5th edition codex. They never had a unique 40k playstyle, so I don't miss it (back to the original poll question), and because they don't have any sort of unique playstyle I don't see any point in bringing them back now. Why should I want to see squats when you admit that they don't have an interesting play style and would need to be completely revamped for 5th edition? Complaining about marine codexes doesn't say anything good about squats.

Saying a lame point is lame isn't lame at all. Squats and Ad Mech do not overlap. If you think they do, then you do not know enough about Squats or Ad Mech or both.

Saying 'oh you're wrong' without supporting it is lame, especially when you're calling me lame. Squats in the old fluff occupied a position virtually the same as the Admech do now. Squats and AM are not identical, but the major characteristics of how the squats fit into the Imperium are now how the AM fits into the Imperium. The cogboys took the stunties' spot! You have yet to name something specific that I'm wrong about in how the squats were related to the Imperium - for example, I didn't say that they had the same religion as the Admech, just that, like the Admech, they had a different religion, so there's nothing really to converse about.

Telling me 'oh you're wrong' and going on about your dislike of marine codexes isn't going to convince me or anyone else who isn't a squat fan that bringing them back is something we like, or that cutting them out was a bad idea. Why not talk about the good points of squats, like what their army would be like in 40k, and what their background would bring to the fluff? That way you might get someone to change their mind.

I'm not totally interested in changing your mind, especially now that I know it's been made up since 1991.

Once again, however, let me remind you that the thread is about whether you're glad they're gone and not whether you want them to come back. So it's not really important whether or not they'd change the name. And you, just like the rest of us, don't know if they would actually change the name. My point is that GW has kept plenty of other goofy names around and most of us are now past complaining about them. Maybe the same could be said of Squats. Maybe not. Lord knows I still think "Space Sharks" is terrible.

On to the problem of Ad Mech comparisons, since you demand that I teach about these Space Dwarves you've hated for near on two decades. Yes, Ad Mech and Squats both had access to advanced technology and fixed things. And that's the sum total of their similarities. You say that they also share having different religious views from the Imperium. Well, the same could be said of Space Marines. It's just not much of a point. What's far more interesting is how different their religious views are. Similarly, the Squat worlds are semi-autonomous . . . just like Forge Worlds. But so are Chapter homeworlds, and it'd be stupid to say for this reason that Space Marines and Ad Mech overlap.

Furthermore, Squats are an entire society of abhumans--something that exists nowhere else in the fluff. And their society is not integrated physically with the rest of the Imperium but relegated to a discrete corner of the galaxy. They have no doctrinal preference for augmentation over their flesh. They have a long history of dealings with true xenos and have no prejudice against or superstitions regarding xenotech. They look at technology in a totally practical way and regard the Ad Mech as would-be mystics. Of course, this means that the Squats also see nothing wrong with innovation and development. Finally, they are known for their love of epic poetry and song--especially concerning the deeds of their ancestors.

The Squats show us interesting things about the world of 40k. They not only give us insight into the politics of the contemporary Imperium but also the Imperium of the earliest days of the Great Crusade. They also give us a window, uncolored by the superstitions of Mars and Terra, into the ancient times of Old Night. Losing them as an army means we have lost the opportunity to explore a great deal of the history of humanity in that universe. It'd have been better for many reasons if the Squats had not been squatted but these missed opportunities are some of the most tragic as far as I'm concerned.

Once again, I actually don't hate the Marine codices. I was just addressing an argument. People claimed that the Squats would be a redundant army. The example of the Marine books just proves that redundancy is not a stumbling block for either GW or 40k players so it would not matter that the Squats would be redundant.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Dancing with a SoB like that scene in Snow White.
Hmmm
So that's where you got the moniker from Dancing With Squats!

At least we get the women.

The squats were great in their day but sadly for many that day has passed (if you believe in 5th) however my squats still exist in both games; it's just in RT they're ass kicking super tech space dwarfs and in 5th they're guardsmen with a true LOS issue.

This is sad for those that live in the grimdark 5th ed. corporate world of modern day GW,

If the Squats had been given the same attention as some of the other armies from 2nd ed and been carried over into successive editions this discussion would not be needed. 2nd ed did NOT include DE as an original base army. It did include Squats.

But hey.. lets compare.... basic Squat from 2nd ed to basic IG and Ork....

Troop - WS - BS - S - T - W - I - A - Ld - Sv
IG - 3 - 3 - 3 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 1 - 7 - 5+
Squat - 4 - 3 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 9 - 4+
Ork - 4 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 7 - 6+
Now, since the basic stats haven't changed since 2nd ed, can it really be said that IG or Orks are a good substitute for Squats? The IG model drops 1 point in WS and T and 2 in LD with a worse save. Ork drops 1 point in BS, 2 in LD with an even worse save than IG but gives +1 attack.
Squats also had the advantage of taking Heavy Weapons and Bikes as Troop choices, something only certain SM or CSM builds can do. Yes, they had some weapons that other imperial armies had limited access to, but to say they have been "replaced" by any other not currently supported list is 'lame'.

I played against a guy with a squat army, it was actually really cool, they were being used as space marine scouts, with three thunderfire cannons and a conversion beamer forgemaster, the bikers were scout-bikes. It looked cool, but probably wasn't the most competitive thing ever...

Note on the Red thing: Funny you say that, as I didn't play in 3rd edition either, which, if the legends are true, tells of a time when the dark future was dominated by red marines and red orks.

The models are STILL sweet.

Sorry, but those models look like you've just dropped the Smurfs into my beloved grimdark universe.

They look nothing like humans... so I wouldn't class them as abhuman, just... an unreal mistake.

Henners91 wrote:Sorry, but those models look like you've just dropped the Smurfs into my beloved grimdark universe.

They look nothing like humans... so I wouldn't class them as abhuman, just... an unreal mistake.

That's cool. You don't have to like them. But I sure do.

Henners91 wrote:Sorry, but those models look like you've just dropped the Smurfs into my beloved grimdark universe.

Back then, Chaos Dread looks like this:



Don't get me wrong, I think that thing is awesome. But not everyone will appreciate that era of aesthetics.

Anyway, I think Squats would look quite different if they had been around all this time.



That's an awesome model. And it has almost no distinctive development. Imagine if there were twenty years of continuous Squat design development.

I must admit that compared to the previously posted models, that one looks pretty new.

It is pretty new--last year's WD model.

I voted yes, because I am not really a person. But a demon who feeds upon the tears of nerds.

Henners91 wrote:Sorry, but those models look like you've just dropped the Smurfs into my beloved grimdark universe.

My squats were fairly grimdark I think, and these guys were painted when bright and shiney was the order of things.

Really, I am abig fan of the Squats. I sold my Squat army I had been working on since 1988 earlier this year to try and make some ends meet. In the 40K "big picture" the Squats were edited out for all the reasons given above, and replaced quite sensibly with the Tau. The similarities are there if you look. They just made them Xenos instead of Abhumans, and made them less assaulty instead of more. So the high tech innovative guys are still with us, they are just blue and skinny instead of short and bearded. Even the leaders still get the cool armor

they're guardsmen with a true LOS issue.

Do you mean like Gimli on the parapets at Helm's Deep?

That figure with the St.George's Cross button looks uncannily like Fidel Castro.
Is that intended as part of the humour back then?

Just thought at least you CAN get 10 squats in a Rhino, unlike SM's
Those Termies are so cute! Me want!
Look good SmackCakes!

Hmm...can't I be glad they got rid of squats, but still like squats? Liking and not wanting aren't exclusive of each other. I like all women. Doesn't mean I want all women

Hey I'm just glad that the Squats existed at one time. Hell I thought I was going nuts. I vividly recall seeing some dwarfs with guns fighting Orks at a game shop when I was six. I kept thinking I swore there were dwarfs in 40k...I just knew it. But then I figured maybe I had saw Warhammer fantasy next to the Orks and Space Marines.

I just don't like it when GW squats entire ranges of stuff. It sets a precedent that has lost us Lost and the Damned, Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins, among others.

Also, model ranges change. I don't think that's an adequate reason to remove an army.

Was it worth it to 'squat' the Squats in the long run, though? Maybe. I don't really feel they had a ton going for them in terms of unique character (even Evil Space Elves have some interesting history mostly unique to 40k), and their loss, imho, is not as bad as the loss of the other, more develop-able codex ideas.

I'm more bothered by the clumsy fluff removal then I am by the army not being supported. Having a sizable number of heavily defended worlds gouged out of the center of the galaxy sometime in the last fifty years (i.e. in between Armageddon 2 and 3) by the Tyranids was a piss poor story choice.

I can guarantee any RPGs I run in 40k the Squat strongholds live on (perhaps embattled and unable to actively support the Imperium any longer but not instantly wiped from the universe).

Jack

gazelle wrote:Xenos instead of Abhumans,

gazelle wrote:less assaulty instead of more.

gazelle wrote:blue and skinny instead of short and bearded

...so in other words, Tau aren't like Squats at all?

I mean, if one or two similarities is all it takes, then Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines both wear power armor, so clearly they're IDENTICAL! And Necrons and Tyranids, neither of them have Warp signatures, so obviously they're exactly alike! Oh, and Orks and Eldar, they both like close combat, so clearly they're the same faction!

Oh wait, no they're not.

I do think it is interesting to note that Squats were, technically replaced with the Dark Eldar at the same time that TSR was publishing the "Icewind Dale" books that made the Drow (dark elves) extremely popular.
Nah, that can't have had any influence on making a spacefaring dark elf race.....

I've got a few things to touch on here. First, how many of you 'Squat Haters' were actually legal to drive back in the day, let alone were involved in the hobby? Some of you speak of the models being 'lame', but did any of you notice that ALL of the ork boys looked like someone had just jerked the toilet out from under them? The game, back then, was a lot more jovial tham it is now. Get a hold of a copy of 'Er We Go, or one of the other ork books drom 1st or 2nd edition and give it a look. I think the bottom line here isn't a matter of wether or not the army 'resembled' this or that, but that GW nixed an entire army for one reason or another. They've since done it to Lost & the Damned, 13th Company, Legion of the Damned and even though they technically haven't done away with them, they have absorbed or changed others to the point that you can't play them as they were originally designed or collected (case in point 3rd edition White Scars - look up the original army layout from WD or Chapter Approved and be very glad that those rules no longer apply!). Sorry boys, I didn't mean to go on a rant but as someone who has been into this for over 20 years, I find some of your arguments a little bit silly.......

helgrenze wrote:I do think it is interesting to note that Squats were, technically replaced with the Dark Eldar at the same time that TSR was publishing the "Icewind Dale" books that made the Drow (dark elves) extremely popular.
Nah, that can't have had any influence on making a spacefaring dark elf race.....

Except that WHFB Dark Elves had been around long prior to the Icewind Dale trilogy.

I know this because I'm a huge R.A. Salvatore fan myself.

Maybe Forgotten Realms books had some influence on the emergence of Dark Eldar, but not as much as you give them credit for, in my opinion.

SaintHazard wrote:I mean, if one or two similarities is all it takes, then Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines both wear power armor, so clearly they're IDENTICAL!

You know, while I agree with your conclusion, that's not a good comparison.

Considering that Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines are, in the end, no more than differing varieties of Space Marines and all.

It's generally the daemons, sorcerers, and mutants that make the various forces of Chaos different from that of the Imperium, rather than the Chaos Space Marines.

But they're not interchangable, which is my point. You can't set some Chaos Space Marines down on the table, pull out the Chaos Space Marine codex, and call them Blood Ravens. I mean, technically, by the rules you can, but from a fluff standpoint, you cannot. They're very similar, but they're not IDENTICAL. Maybe the fact that they share WAY more similarities than Squats and Tau makes them a bad example, but my point still stands.

Melissia wrote:Oh, here's something I hadn't thought about-- given that the 'nids ate the squats, what exactly did they produce out of them?

obvious. Pyrovores

I have no idea what anyone of you are talking about, I have never heard of any such "Squat"...

(voted no, by the... OH SH...*BLAM*)

I voted yes because they just don't seem unique enough to have there own army. Don't get me wrong I think 5 armies of marines is lame as well, it's just I would rather see them as an additional unit for IG rather than a whole army unto themselves. Imagine it like chaos dwarves for warriors of chaos.

I will just say that if they brought Squats back, I'd start playing 40K as well as FB. They're really the only army that holds any appeal to me from that universe.

Jeep wrote:I will just say that if they brought Squats back, I'd start playing 40K as well as FB. They're really the only army that holds any appeal to me from that universe.

Yeah. Even just the models. I'd happily play IG rules for them if I could land the models without going broke (when you can even find them).

I've had better luck finding short run 3.5 Ravenloft material than I have finding a usable number of Squats.

Unless you're forced by tournament rules to use GW miniatures there are always the Grymn from Hasslefree.

I'd also check out some of the neat war engines from scotia grendel productions like the wargolem.

Jack

http://olleysarmies.co.uk/scruntjuves.html

These are just pure awesome... infact £25 I might buy some now.

I loved the little stunties. My old gaming buddy had them & they were very entertaining to fight against.

Nice, I'd forgotten about the scrunts.

Jack

Sorry, mis-posted.

Yak9UT wrote:omnom'd? I am unfamilar with this term omnom'd.

Just google image search for omnom. You'll get the idea.


I voted w00t for squats. Still waiting for choas squats myself. Actually a squat made an appearance in my DH game last weekend. Great times were had by all.

omnom

The chant performed by Buddhist monks whilst eating.

Don't get me wrong...I think the squats could have had the coolest of the cool in all honesty. I know I'm going to step on some toes here (or completely obliterate them) but realistically since Squats are Dwarves there is only one 'fluff' that fits them imo and that would be as the Mechanicus.

LOL

Henners, is your confidence failing you currently?



I attempted to find a picture of a dwarf flipping the bird but this will suffice.